pif-hoenn-discussion

[lofty spindle]

I hope we get that cool feature back where certain fusion combos could learn signature moves.

[quaint matrix]

Elaborate

I'm pretty sure Dark/Flying Pokemon can still learn Oblivion Wing from the Legendary Move Tutor in this game

It'll stay that way until Yveltal ever gets added

[junior tiger]

Any signature moves teachable from Move Tutors were included when the Pokémon that typically learned it wasn't in the game. Once they're added, the Move Tutor no longer teaches that move, since it can simply be fused

[velvet root]

I kinda hope it gets stopped that it gets removed when a Mon gets in but I understand why he does it

[lofty spindle]

Yeah but more distribution for clevery picked fusions and neat references was really cool and spiced up gameplay.

[silk cobalt]

i. did not know there was a legendary move tutor

[inland jewel]

a random npc in the sevii islands teaches those moves i think

need heartscales too, at an amount that people don't have so they usually don't go for it

[sterile spoke]

Why is this unironically a banger? 😮

[silk cobalt]

composition good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XVSz27Npxw&ab_channel=AngelxTenshi

[craggy nexus]

reminder of the design a hoenn grunt contest https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Nlo2cdu8ExTt7BYnOasvKV4quXciEMFM?usp=drive_link

[thin pawn]

I wonder if they'll add anything from ORAS

Maybe the Hoopa rings

[craggy nexus]

we already have random portal in the base game

[graceful terrace]

I don't know if anyone has discussed this, but I was thinking it would be cool if castform could get a "buff" by giving it access to drizzle/drought/snow warning

like, it would allow for an npc trainer to show off it's 3 castform fusions without a setup turn

[craggy nexus]

yeah thats not happening, 1 cause castform ability is his main gimmick, and 2 frogman hasnt buffed anyone since like 5.0 where he removed several of the buff

[craggy nexus]

you cant have castform change form without his ability

[graceful terrace]

oh, I forgot it, right

[craggy nexus]

it could be done in doubles

[graceful terrace]

🤔 yeah, but then to show all forms on the same battle it would become player-dependant

maybe an event where environmental weather keeps changing at random?

[thin pawn]

Wdym

Like the dialga and palkia one?

[craggy nexus]

for some legendary we have just random ass portals, yes and for zekrom/reshiram

[thin pawn]

True true

Honestly I'd take Infinite Fusion's legendary quests over hoopa portals any day

But maybe they'll add some portals for legendaries they won't make quests for

[full bison]

If the Hoopa portals will be used for anything, I'm pretty sure it would just be for a quest that would end with a Hoopa encounter

[hexed agate]

There's no reason to use Hoopa portals when we have Necrozma with Solgaleo and Lunala

It's cooler AND more on theme with fusion

[trail hull]

Solgaleo and lunala confirmed for pif

All jokes aside ultra wormhole would be great it could also allow for repeat legendaries

[full bison]

We do have the Mossdeep space center to help justify the usage of the Ultra Wormholes.

[thin pawn]

chat is this real

[spice sage]

No

[gray vine]

Yes

[hushed axle]

Nobody believes you anymore after you said “no sequel” frog

[full bison]

[thin pawn]

[rain locust]

dont free lunala i need my moongeist beam mismagius

[thin pawn]

But think of how you could fuse Dawn wings/dusk mane necrozma with other pokemon

[inland jewel]

you say that, but we know its going to get the Gen 5 legend trio treatment

[thin pawn]

But we already have ultra necrozma

[full bison]

Exactly. We already have a means of getting Ultra Necrozma without fusing Necrozma with Solgaleo or Lunala, therefore Dusk mane and Dawn wings are unnecessary

[thin pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-passing-out-gif-27347644

[prime dust]

solaleo + lunala + necrozma = ultra nercozma (but slightly to the left)

dusk mane and dusk wings would have a point

but we'd have to use a different sprite for that triple when it gets added

[thin pawn]

I just want a dawn wings fusion

[charred root]

you know what would be fun if we had to put the reggies to sleep or somthing also will this game be after or before reuby

[prime dust]

prob before, that would make the most sense

maybe something like they screwed up the legends of the orbs

and instead gave the red one to kyogre and the blue one to groudon

[silk cobalt]

i mean that does happen in ruby and sapphire and emerald

[prime dust]

oh

just shows how long it has been since i've done a run of any of those games

especially one that hasn't had a romhack or mod patched into it

[hollow plume]

Any info on new pokemon being added?

When him?

[thin pawn]

never

[prime dust]

the rest of gen 3 mons are being added in with PIF Hoenn

[hollow plume]

I will pour moldy beans in your socks

Yaaaaaay

[prime dust]

as to a "time", we only have a rough date point for the demo, which will be in 6 months

[hollow plume]

Woohoo!

[prime dust]

subject to change for obvious reasons

[silk cobalt]

omg PLEASE share the source that is ADORABLE

[silk cobalt]

wasn't it "at least" 6 months

[hollow plume]

Kyacchan on Tumblr!

[thin pawn]

not the beans

[prime dust]

at least yes

but note i did say rough date point

and that is was also subject to change

[hexed frost]

Would it be a good idea for secret bases to sometimes have people and wild Pokémon inside of them? Or is having no obstacles to base creation preferred?

For example, you could visit some NPCs inside their secret base and battle, trade, and buy/sell with them.

Some Pokémon might occupy secret bases as homes or a nest, so you could capture them or steal eggs like in P.I.F. Kanto/Johto.

Thoughts?

[rugged lodge]

I think they should act like dens from Pokemon Black/White 2. You find one that's open, and you go in to find a rare Pokemon, and it might have its Hidden Ability.

[full bison]

It's a little sad that there won't be any multiplayer capabilities for the region that had Secret Bases. Would have loved to see how many people would end up destroying their controllers over the Boppoyama

[alpine rune]

If secret bases going to be implemented, i want a separate channel but just to show off secret bases

[thin pawn]

What are the chances they implement online for hoenn? Gotta be pretty low but not entirely zero

[full bison]

Pretty sure the multiplayer issue is based around limitations of the engine the game is running on, so it's pretty darn close to 0

[thin pawn]

tragic

[full bison]

As much as I miss Secret Bases in Hoenn and how they made me feel more connected with a good chunk of people playing at the same time, I gotta be realistic

[clear lichen]

I disagree, Dusk Mane is better than Solgaleo so it should be added fr

Dawn Wings can stay out I'm not too devastated by that loss if I have Lunala

Obviously I'd prefer if I had it but like it isn't the worst thing to lose

[craggy nexus]

No it's actually posible i have talked with froggy but would need to pay for a server and thats an issue cause we cant ask for money, well in any case the showdown server covers the game competitive, so it be only the trading that would be new

[thin pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/dumb-and-dumber-comedy-jim-carrey-excited-happy-gif-10308926303665370357

[full bison]

A chance to get Mario to come knocking on Frog's door demanding their pound of flesh

[thin pawn]

He just needs to rent servers with his own money, how expensive could it be

[craggy nexus]

There was also a mod someone made that allowed to see another person in the overworld but it was very not all that good

Found it: #spriter-general message

[spring reef]

With the upgrades to trainers capabilities are they going to consider randomization into the trainers team like for the catching route pokemon for example is it gonna be possible for them to see a Moltres/groundon fusion in the route and use it on their team lmao

[prime dust]

we're not sure in the aspect of randomization how that will work in full

[prime dust]

tbf the best time for them to have done that would have been during the YouTube flood

the fact they didn't

either means they didn't notice, or we weren't big enough of a target

[full bison]

The prior discussion was about how online features would probably put a target on our back as Frog would need to maintain online servers. And the only options for him there are either pay for them out of pocket, something we don't know is feasible for him as we don't know his financial situation, or asking for donations. And you know how that would appear to Nintendo

So we aren't a target right now, but online could easily change that

[prime dust]

well that depends, if the server route is the only option, then yeah, that would involve a lot of money

but, if a peer-to-peer route is possible, there are free programs that would likely work [horribly blanking on the main one I used to use ages ago]

[silk cobalt]

This is a great idea, and makes total sense.

[inland jewel]

If secret bases did feature trainers then i wonder if they could do what they did for the Wondertrade and give them those mons

though making them HA Routes or Rare pokemon zones would be fun too

[tacit saddle]

tbh this is cool

[silk cobalt]

I could see it being re-generated each day. Sometimes trainers, sometimes items, sometimes Pokémon.

[molten latch]

Is PIF: Hoenn a new game?

[warm skiff]

i heard they're giving wally a mega absol, don't know why in the art it only has one wing, though...

[unborn notch]

Pokemon infinite fusion hoenn

[lunar knot]

Yea it's a sequel

[prime dust]

https://tenor.com/view/kazuma-kaguya-cloud-final-fantasy-gif-14635411

hang on, that alone does not do it justice

[silk cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/sephiroth-mario-stab-super-smash-brothers-smash-ultimate-gif-19525504

[prime dust]

https://youtu.be/mYdf0yqK_Fc?si=dXmlovvrZD5GlKkh

gotta include the trauma music

[thin pawn]

Still can't believe they let this in a smash direct

[vital portal]

Not to mentipn Kazuma throwing nintendo characters off a cliff

[opal sleet]

hi, did I dream it, or did we at some point have a quick preview for what the battles will look like in PIF hoenn ? I remember a leaf background and a pikachu fusion sprite as the test sprite
In the recent news maybe ? I can't seem to find the screenshot or video anywhere

[thin pawn]

I think you had a vision

[inland jewel]

maybe not a battle, but did you mean the anniversary video?

[full bison]

Just checked the anniversary video and there wasn't any Pikachu fusion in it.

I saw a Beautifly, Cascoon/Slakoth, Zigzaggoon/Skitty, Seedot/Surskit, Tropius/Camerupt, Tropius/Spoink, Spoink/Numel, Seviper/Zangoose, Latios/Latias, and something fused with Solrock, but no Pikachu or Pikachu fusion

[inland jewel]

it was a flash of yellow, so i think they assumed it was pikachu

but backreading through chats, they mentioned 3d?

so definitely a dream

UNLESS, its part of the livestreams they were doing

idk if vods of those are saved though

[full bison]

Seriously though, what is that Solrock fused with? It's so bizarre looking. All I can think of is Chingling or Aegislash

[inland jewel]

could it be lunatone?

its just front facing

[full bison]

Looking at it closer, I'm gonna go with Chingling thanks to the red and white striped prong ray things and mouth that looks like a bell hole

Super hard to tell though with how far off it is

[inland jewel]

hmm, it is bellshaped so i think it could be Chingling

yeah it makes more sense with the red

[hushed axle]

There's no way that's not chingling

https://tenor.com/view/chingling-pokemon-daytuna-question-mark-gif-22851329

100%

[inland jewel]

Runie my goat

[junior tiger]

Exactly, the mouth holes alone are obvious but the ribbon spikes also give it away

[velvet root]

Im so happy we got that guy

[tepid turret]

I guess I should’ve asked here, what’s the timeframe for when this update will be available for testing? Or is there already a download?

[trail hull]

6 month

[tepid turret]

https://tenor.com/view/tess-spheal-gif-22641311

I need my Spheal fix yesterday

[trail hull]

Even if pif hoennn release in 6 month I hope frog gradually add the new Pokémon code in pif 1

[velvet root]

It is said that we get them in PIF 1 as soon as the first beta launches

[trail hull]

Oh

[velvet root]

BUT there wont be natural spawns for them so you can get them in Classic/Remix only over Black market and wondertrade

Thats how I understood it

[trail hull]

I know

I just want to be able to see them on infinite and fusion dex

[tepid turret]

What about randomized runs?

[trail hull]

You will see them

[velvet root]

Like randomizers pre gen 8
You can encounter them

[trail hull]

Honestly once pif hoenn is dove we might get a second big popularity wave

[velvet root]

I mean didnt we get one the last 3-4 years

[tepid turret]

Physically cannot wait somebody get on this sprite :3

[velvet root]

like yearly

[trail hull]

That’s why I said second

[velvet root]

There is a Giant spheal already

[trail hull]

Like people who only heard of it a few years ago will see character customization, +100 new mons , custom dex entry and hoenn. This a lot to cover

[velvet root]

Definetly

Maybe I see my Sprites getting used more

[trail hull]

Same

[tepid turret]

Yeah, I was suprised by character customization when I came back a few months ago.

[trail hull]

Tho if we get gogoat we might see your even more

[velvet root]

Like sure I got nearly 400 fusions in the game but a good chunk isnt fully evolved or high quality

[trail hull]

Yes , it’s fun and everyone can create some

[velvet root]

People have to use Gogoat first lol

[trail hull]

Same but with 200+ more fusion

[tepid turret]

For the longest time I was playing on an old version trying to actually complete the game but never ended up finishing that so I missed a lot of updates

[trail hull]

The goat is good

[velvet root]

Also I swear to god if I miss Gogoat getting in and wont be the first to upload it I get mad

[trail hull]

It might be who upload first

[trail hull]

Yeah a good chunk of my fusions are diglett

[velvet root]

Everytime I see a new Mon being close to get in I have a Gogoat in the gallery with its likely number for the moment

[tepid turret]

I just wish there was some way to combine my two favorite things: Infinite Fusion and Moemon, but IF is already an undertaking so best you get is some Easter egg type things.

[velvet root]

I also should make more Hoenn Goats

Well I started another Goat with Hoenn a while ago but didnt finish yet

[tepid turret]

I’d love more gen 4 since that was kinda my intro to pokemon. Maybe some day we might get to gen 5 even.

[trail hull]

We have 255 mons left , a good chunk is from gen 5

I haven’t counted how many individual mon of each generation we have left

[velvet root]

I kinda wonder if we get more than gen 3 dex since Frog once said that maybe we get more
Dont remember the exact words

[trail hull]

Well before the new mons the battle command worked ip to 600 but after the new mons it very quickly reduce to 565 so we might get some more mons

[velvet root]

By god gimme my Goat
Like its a bike and Hoenn has 2 types of bikes too
Idk

[trail hull]

Also wow we’re almost at 700k

If we do get some new mons we might see binacle cuz frog like it

[unkempt kernel]

Still holding out hope for Pachirisu

[tepid turret]

Honestly there’s one pokemon from a tactical standpoint that gen 4 would offer that’s not in: Heatran. Being able to have a bug/steel with flash fire would be busted.

[velvet root]

Yeah its great I used it

[trail hull]

Also it’s funny because new mon became a yearly tradition

Like the first year it was said that we shouldn’t expect new mon next year , but we got some. And the same thing happened the year after and now we’re here

[tepid turret]

The more the merrier

Noselord seal of approval

(This guy was one of my favorites before infinite fusion was even a thing and it was just that old fusion calc thing)

[clear lichen]

What Bug type would you even fuse Heatran to though

What do the Bug types give to Heatran apart from the type that Heatran doesn't already have

It's Heatran for crying out loud

I guess like

Webs

[trail hull]

Love maybe

[clear lichen]

Spin and Spikes too I suppose?

Mainly thinking Forretress with those 2

Though considering how much lower the average Bug type's stats are compared to Heatran

Could make a cool setup sweeper with a Quiver Dancer I suppose

I think Volcarona is banned though

So your next best is like

[trail hull]

Maybe fused with genesect

[clear lichen]

Masquerain?

[tepid turret]

I just meant the typing

[clear lichen]

There really is a lack of good Quiver Dancers

[tepid turret]

Bug/steel that’s immune to fire has no weaknesses and lots of strengths

[clear lichen]

By that I mean like 2 of them have seen Quiver Dance sets outside of NU

And that's Volcarona

And Oricorio Pom Pom

[tepid turret]

Scizor?

[clear lichen]

Scizor does not get Quiver Dance

Nor would it be a good user

If you mean fusions

Scizor is a physical attacker with low SpA while Heatran is a special attacker with mid Attack

And Scizor relies on Technician very hard

[tepid turret]

Fair, I often forget the defensive takes away another special

[clear lichen]

Without Technician it's nothing special

[tepid turret]

I went about my recent playthrough building nothing but type advantages and ended up with no good abilities except maybe water absorb and sap sipper

[clear lichen]

How good those abilities are depends on who has it

[tepid turret]

I was trying to maximize my immunities and strengths type wise to the exclusion of anything else

[clear lichen]

For example, Water Absorb on Dracovish is worthless

Especially since Dracovish wants to run Strong Jaw for Fishious Rend

[tepid turret]

I made Magmortar/Quagsire, fire/ground with water absorb so I was really only weak to earthquakes.

I don’t pretend to be an expert

[clear lichen]

Yknow I'm trying to think of a good defensive type that is quad weak to Water here but out of the types that are weak to Water, 1 has a small sample pool of Camerupt and Primal Groudon

And the other 2 are Rock types

And hence automatically dogshit defensively

[tepid turret]

Rock and ice are so weak it’s hilarious

[clear lichen]

Rock and Ice aren't weak exactly

They're bad defensively

[tepid turret]

The moves are awesome the defense is bad

[clear lichen]

But they are superb offensively

And a STAB boost goes a long way

People sacrifice the option of swapping moves for a 1.5× boost

So no "Buffing Ice buffs Water and nerfs Ice"

Because that's just a dumb sentiment that if you couldn't tell by how quick I am to mention it I am tired of hearing so much

The real issue with the types is the fact that Gamefreak keeps making the Pokemon with those types slow as molasses

And a lot of the few that are fast have pathetic offences

Froslass 80/80

[tepid turret]

I mean, to be fair it is a rock, or a glacier, both of which are famously slow

[clear lichen]

Anyways for my quad weakness example

I will instead use Sap Sipper on a Water/Ground type like Swampert

[tepid turret]

Yeah

[clear lichen]

Water/Ground is widely accepted as a great defensive type

With the one big weakness being Grass

There are actually Water types with Sap Sipper

AKA literally just Marill and Azumarill

Not even Azurill because that's a Normal type

[tepid turret]

I also made one with that, and something flying with volt absorb, just to see

Lighting rod not volt absorb I’m tired

[clear lichen]

There's quite a few Flying types with Volt Absorb tbf

I mean they're all Electric types as well

So it's merely neutrality into immunity

But Electric is a good type to be immune to

Tbh Bug immunity would still be solid even with Bug being horrid offensively

Insert short mention of U-Turn here

[tepid turret]

Steel/flying with lightning rod, I think it was

I did so much research I barely played the game

Of course the best of plans still disintegrate on contact with reality

[clear lichen]

I assume you mean in the showdown server since I don't think Togedemaru is in the game

I could be an idiot though

[tepid turret]

Maybe I was labing out Zapdos and a steel type?

Oh yeah

Magnezone and/or Metagross with Zapdos

I was just seeing what was even possible since I was doing randomized anyways

[clear lichen]

Ah right, Gen 5 Hidden Abilities

Zapdos has Static nowadays

Chandelure still has Shadow Tag I reckon

[tepid turret]

Yep

Anyways I’ve stayed up way too long, good chat

[alpine rune]

Goodnight Darjeeling with a Tog II

Anyways I think secret bases would be cool

I want a home to go to

Just a favourite checkpoint

[tepid turret]

Good night stoned omanyte wearing a lab coat or whatever

[clear lichen]

Gn

Anyways wasn't it said secret bases wouldn't work because something something online server something something need money something something NINTENDO

[alpine rune]

You don't need something to be online to have some personal side quests

Sure, a part of the fun is to show your friends your base but when I was little playing emerald, I got no friends that play pokemon

It was just a fun little sidequest to just make bases

Same goes with contests and pokeblocks

[quaint matrix]

Which btw the solve for these types of repeated statements is obvious

Just nerf Water

[weak trellis]

just make it weak to poison problem solved

[full bison]

Rock doesn't even have many good offensive moves really. Too many suffer from low accuracy

[inland jewel]

thats why i fuse a rock type with either Butterfree or Galvantula

Compound eye does so much good for them

[full bison]

No Guard is good too. Too bad the only No Guard Rock type is Meh-dnight Lycanroc

I guess that's what you use Machamp for at least

[rancid nymph]

“If it’s not 100% accurate it’s 50% accurate” John Michael Wingull Groth

[full bison]

I still can't get over how Gamefreak wanted the Lycanrocs to contrast each other by having one be the fast one and the other being the defensive one. And their way of doing this was to split 30 points of Midday's speed into 10 points of HP, defense, and special defense for Midnight. What a horrible "equivalency."

[rancid nymph]

Plus Midday gets its own signature move while Midnight gets counter 🤮

[full bison]

"boy, what a wonderful counterattack move. I sure do hope I don't have crippling weaknesses to the two most common physical attacking types in the game."

[rancid nymph]

Not to mention those 2 types are tied for being super effective against the most types

[weak trellis]

midday's signature move is also a priority move... on something with 115 base speed.

a move that a vast majority of other rock types would commit crimes for and it's own user can't even use it well

then again that feels like a lot of the gen 7=9 signatures when the pokemon isn't turbo-designed around the signature rofl

[full bison]

Priority moves are still really good on fast Pokemon. For instance, if the opponent uses a priority move on a slower Pokemon while you use one on a fast mon, the faster mon will still go first. There's a reason Gale Wings Talonflame was so popular before Gamefreak took a chainsaw to it.

[weak trellis]

overkill chainsaw

then again I'm pretty sure my way wouldn't have been much better lol

(which is that it still works at any HP, but only on moves with 60 base power or lower... after variable damage so acrobatics wouldn't work if itemless)

[snow gust]

This is a thing? wild thank you in advance to everyone working on this project. you make me want to get into making sprites.

[full bison]

Go for it. This community is more than willing to help you along with that. Check out resources like #spriting-guidelines to get started, as well as ?tag howdoisprite

?tag howdoIsprite

[opal trail]

No tag howdoIsprite found.

[full bison]

?tag howdoisprite

[opal trail]

• Don't know where to start? How Do I Start Link
• Which software to use? Software Recommendations Link
• Dont know where to get game sprites? Sprite Recommendations Link
• Unsure about posting in ⁠⁠spritework? Spritework Information Link
• Dont know how to get the Spriter role? How to Become a Spriter Link

For any other spriting question or how to dos, make sure to look at the MANY pinned resources in #spriting-guidelines
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/700790080175996938/1351941605938040872/image.png?ex=67dc353c&is=67dae3bc&hm=1343d256d4e21b5238e09dc27e19cf0d39438cddc804fef28c2ab465623a18f1&

[snow gust]

Appreicate the resources thank you

[high haven]

I've been away from the server a while, but I have one thing to say:

https://tenor.com/view/yess-yes-gif-25420589

SEVIPER'S FINALLY IN BABY!!!!!

I am going to go nuts over making fusions for my guy now

[gray vine]

was that said somewhere

oh bruh im dumb

seviper is a different snake

i was thinking you said serperior

[prime dust]

lol

[hexed agate]

oh hey, wb

I recognize your name, weren't you a spriter?

[full bison]

God I wish the Unova starters were here

Not gonna happen for a long while tho

[high haven]

No, I just maee the base design of a few fusions

[hexed agate]

ah, fair enough

I might have used one of your buddies then?

can't recall, but you're not unfamiliar

[high haven]

Okay

[zinc prairie]

what a modest guy taking compliments

[fast quiver]

hopefully the new game has some pokemon native to hoenn

[uneven folio]

I'd love to see some more attention added to the underwater segments

[prime dust]

it has all the gen 3 mons

that is the main point of PIF Hoenn, the rest of the gen 3 dex is getting added

[shadow frigate]

hiii. im dumb and idk lots, but why does the hoenn game have to be seperate from the johto and kanto thing

[prime dust]

the game engine that PIF is made in has a map limit of 999

at current the game is using 849 of those

while it is possible to exceed that limit, it would require a LOT of extra work on the part of the developer to keep the game stable so it could keep being updated

in the long run, it is just far easier to make a separate game for Hoenn

[sterile spoke]

Plus it's a fresh start in terms of levels and such, so it works better as a separate project. 🙂

Otherwise you hit a levelling problem pretty sharpish. 😅

[prime dust]

hoenn being added into pif proper would mean within the first few gyms you'd likely be fighting level 100 pokemon

[mental pilot]

Just increase the level cap

[prime dust]

monkey paw curls

we increased it only for trainers, so now they can have pokemon up to level 1000

you on the otherhand are still restricted to level 100

[silk cobalt]

I agree.

[rare nacelle]

Could there be a story line where the player fights the fake Groudon from that one Pokemon movie? That'd be neat.

Hell, make that the plot-line of the story: Archie/Maxie are trying to do their own thing, but instead of just capturing Kyogre/Groudon, they try to fuse it with Jirachi to make their "wish" come true.

[green bough]

that is kinda interesting

[slim otter]

I think there's a form in #announcements where you can submit ideas for the game

[mossy wind]

Spheal is gonna make me so happy man

[prime dust]

https://tenor.com/view/tess-spheal-gif-22641311

[signal root]

What Pokemon will be in infinite fusion

[next flare]

All of these

[gray vine]

and 501 others

[signal root]

Will Snivy be in there

[full bison]

Sadly no

[signal root]

https://tenor.com/view/noooo-star-wars-darth-vader-gif-8348766

[full bison]

No other Pokemon will be added as far as we know.

[formal ingot]

Wouldn't it be more easier if the devs just added on to the original pokemon infinite fusion game?

instead of making a new game entirely

[full bison]

Not enough map space. RPG Maker allows a maximum of 999 maps, Infinite Fusion is currently using over 800.

[gray vine]

in which way. the hoenn mons will be added to both games

but the hoenn map itself becomes its own game

in a way you can just see it as an extention

[full bison]

On a related note, New update!

[thin pawn]

Weather baby

[thin pawn]

Isn't Snivy already in the game

Oh nvm I just saw the other message

Ignore me im dumb

[full bison]

Gen 5 starters were skipped over

[thin pawn]

deserved but still

[rain locust]

free serp

[thin pawn]

If they can't add that many pokemon to PIF 2 I hope they'll find some other way to make it stand out

[gray vine]

like you know it being in hoenn

[thin pawn]

If it's just PIF 1 but in Hoenn and with some new pokemon that might be kinda disappointing

I mean it sounds cool but not like

Incredible

[gray vine]

its also a free game

[thin pawn]

This is true

[full bison]

I'm confident that there will be more Pokemon added way later, but we're already getting 61. That's way more new Pokemon than we usually get

[lucid oar]

will the weather in the overworld affect what form Castform is in battle 🙏

[full bison]

Apparently snow can only exist if rain spreads to Shoal cave, so contrary to one of my earlier comments, Ice types are getting screwed as per usual

What has Ice done to deserve this

[signal root]

Will this beauty still be in the game

[full bison]

No reason it wouldn't be

Both games will use the same pool of sprites

[tacit saddle]

no sprites will be removed between versions unless the spriter requests it

[signal root]

Kk

[full bison]

Imagine being the poor guy who picks Torchic only for the dynamic weather system to give them constant rainstorms across their entire adventure

[alpine rune]

DYNAMIC WEATHERS YEAAAAA

[inland jewel]

With dynamic weathers maybe castform won't be such a pain in the ass to use

[full bison]

Castform's base 70 stats will always be a pain to work with, but weather at least won't be as big an issue for it lol

[uncut garden]

SPHEAL IS COMING BABY

[full bison]

I would also like to bring up that Fog will apparently be a thing thanks to the dynamic weather. So that's gonna be fun. Can't wait to keep missing everything

[uncut garden]

SPHEAL + PORYGON -> JUST A CUBE SPHEAL please

[atomic hornet]

The hoenn suggestion form is in the forms channel, for next time it comes up #server-forms message
We would love to hear new ideas! @rare nacelle just so you see

[alpine rune]

Fuse it with idk something fast and high spa

[next flare]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/543958354377179176/1366305753039638609/137.559.png?ex=682ccf24&is=682b7da4&hm=0aa4931cf5bf0e135c397f52daf0b9c2f4051f8d2ca5ac7399ccc622473c6230&

[prime dust]

https://tenor.com/view/drakeandjosh-spherical-present-take-this-offer-gif-5396234

[wide merlin]

i see the new , so the ice weather are not a important weather but a bonus weather ?

[uncut garden]

NOOOOOOO
He's still kinda cute

Double spheal?

[inland jewel]

more like Hoenn is normally very sunny/stormy and not cold enough for regular snow

[full bison]

Ice deserves better than it's been getting

It's already the worst defensive type, it doesn't deserve to suffer more

[wide merlin]

the problem of the ice resistance are the ice type don't have resistance

the ice type are super effective on grass, flying, dragon, ground and a fifth, but the ice type do'nt have a resistance on this type. The other type have resistance on this type . (fire are powerful on grass ice type so the pokemon fire have resistance on grass and ice attack) not ice and pokemon with wwater type have a reisstance on ice attack and not the reverse and it's the problem

[hexed agate]

the ship sunk...

[odd wigeon]

i like how ur spheal pfp goes past the pfp limits and mine is just tiny

[wide merlin]

and we can add the fact than the ice weather have one on the two effect from the sandstorm in a generation and the second in a other ( damage from 3-8 gen and the defense boost in 9 gen)

[uncut garden]

He's a fat chunky boy

[late river]

Fellow Spheal lovers

https://tenor.com/view/tess-spheal-gif-22641311

[prime dust]

no

he's a silly/friend/ball

source:

[silk cobalt]

yooo weather thats so cool

[silk cobalt]

supreme overlord...

[junior tiger]

Maybe in the original Gen 3 games this was an issue but there are so many never-miss moves now, if Fog kneecaps you that badly it's just a skill issue

[full bison]

You mean all the always-accurate moves that cap out at 60, making them objectively worse than 80% of the moves you'll be carrying around after the fifth badge?
Accuracy shenanigans are BS. Period.

[junior tiger]

You think the only moves that don't calculate accuracy are at 60 BP max? Wow. That's... interesting.
Let's ignore recent moves that likely wouldn't be in PIF (Tachyon Cutter and Double Iron Bash being two obvious examples), Aura Sphere has existed forever.

[full bison]

Aura Sphere has ass distribution

And it's also one of the only examples

[craggy nexus]

the npc redesign contest for the grunts is still going you got till the end of the month https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Nlo2cdu8ExTt7BYnOasvKV4quXciEMFM?usp=sharing

[gray vine]

are these offical or already redesigned sprites? either way cuties

[full bison]

Aside from Aura Sphere, which again has bad distribution, the only other always accurate moves above 60 power available in this are Vital Throw, which isn't much stronger and forces you to move last, and Trump Card, which needs to be at low PP to have any power to it

[junior tiger]

Tons of things learn it by level up, and even if only a few Pokémon learn it, with fusion you could give it to everything 🙄

[full bison]

A whole one move worth considering in an accuracy lowering environment. What a healthy and enjoyable gameplay experience you're peddling there. 😒

[full bison]

Lucario, Gardevoir, Togekiss, and a bunch of legendary Pokemon. That's it.

[craggy nexus]

theyre re sprited to be the size of gen 5 sprites but are the original RSE design

[gray vine]

[junior tiger]

Body Slam, Dragon Rush, Flying Press, Heat Crash, Phantom Force, Shadow Force, Stramroller, Stomp, Blizzard, Hurricane, and Thunder all have situational accuracy bypassing mechanics, Flower Trick and Kowtow Cleave are new examples that are super infamous, False Surrender exists, both Hyperspace moves could be an option from the Tutor if Hoopa isn't added, Smart Strike is actually learnable now by many Pokémon as level-up, and Vital Throw has been around forever.

So that's not very many moves above 60 BP?

[junior tiger]

So basically ALL of the most popular fusion Pokémon? Yeah seems terrible

[full bison]

Did you literally just copy the wiki without actually analyzing each of those moves and why they aren't feasible? Cause Dragon Rush is an infamously bad move because of how inaccurate it is. It only bypasses accuracy checks if the opponent used Minimize prior. Same with Stomp, Flying Press, and Steamroller. How about you understand what you're talking about before acting like an expert?

[junior tiger]

Your claim was that there aren't many moves. If you want to add some other arbitrary parameters you'd be better served actually stating that

[full bison]

Togekiss is locked behind the Shiny Stone, and it and Lucario might not even be available in the main Hoenn game due to not being Hoenn native

[junior tiger]

Also, PIF isn't a competitive environment, it's for nostalgia and fusing and enjoyment

[full bison]

You're talking about moves that are viable to use in the accuracy debuffing Fog, and have only come forward with one example. Of course I'll call you out on that

[junior tiger]

Also, yes, there are parameters for some moves to bypass accuracy, but they still exist. You miss the point. Again

[junior tiger]

One example, sure. You're very aggressive and also combative so I'd recommend stepping away because at this point you haven't proven any other point than the two I just mentioned

[full bison]

The point I made is that accuracy debuffing Fog is BS. And your argument is the viability of always accurate moves. And only one of the moves you've addressed is consistently both always accurate and also of decent power

[rain locust]

https://tenor.com/view/reddit-slot-machine-slot-machine-reddit-reddit-gold-reddit-upvote-gif-9984964009619703055

[junior tiger]

There were four moves in the list I typed that existed early enough in the series AND always have accuracy bypass mechanics. There were a handful of others that are even newer and could potentially be added. Please read and comprehend before you decide to verbally berate people incorrectly

And you still haven't even acknowledged both fusing and potential Move Tutors

[full bison]

And don't go acting like you're a paragon of good faith arguing when you literally started all of this with "Skill Issue" and complement it with the eye rolling emoji

[rain locust]

counterpoint pif is a comp environment

say gg

[junior tiger]

Because it is a skill issue? You can't have a single Pokémon move on ONE Pokémon to deal with Fog? That's really that hard?
And yes, when people claim hyperbolic horrors from a basic game mechanic because it's just too hard when it isn't, that gets an eye roll. You don't have to love it but that's a you problem, not a problem in general

[junior tiger]

Yeah it's not. How many times have you played PIF? What's your Dex completion in-game?

[rain locust]

bro is so pressed

youre arguing about hypotheticals so why keep arguing

[junior tiger]

You aren't really convincing anyone since you joined after the fact but sure, I will answer:

Sensationalism and disinformation aren't a good look. I'm more than willing to not accept it, regardless of hypotheticals.

[rain locust]

disinfo about accuracy moves in fog

none of these words exist in the bible

[summer apex]

this is a weird conversation to walk into

?tag rule17 // I'm just gonna drop this here and back out slowly

[opal trail]

Rule 17 CODE OF CONDUCT: Be nice. Not just in this server, either, this is a good rule for life in general. Assume the best intentions of those you speak to, apologise if you hurt them, and allow them to apologise if they hurt you. Politeness and patience can stop a lot of unnecessary aggression.

[junior tiger]

It's weird to be having too

[junior tiger]

Still waiting on actual answers @rain locust

[junior tiger]

And answers here too @full bison

[summer apex]

mf do I need to tag rule17 again

[full bison]

I blocked him lol

Not worth the blood pressure

[rain locust]

https://tenor.com/view/reddit-slot-machine-slot-machine-reddit-reddit-gold-reddit-upvote-gif-9984964009619703055

[full bison]

Admittedly it was heat of the moment, but checking his latest comments tells me it's probably for the best to keep it that way for a while

Weather besides the fog seems fun at least

[junior tiger]

How is asking for actual answers breaking a rule? And at what point are you going to say they weren't being civil?
sigh this is why general chats are so terrible

[rain locust]

another sad day for a discord debatelord

[full bison]

I still don't understand how you can start a debate with "skill issue" and then act all defensive when people don't like that.

[alpine rune]

Okay calm down now

Playthrough Single player and PVP Competitive are two different experiences, can we just shake on it

Incineroar is shit for playthrough but its god in comp

[full bison]

My issue was less "competitive" and more "fog is annoying from a gameplay perspective" but I'm willing to drop it

[silk cobalt]

Ziggs, ana, let's drop it.

[alpine rune]

Gen 5 fog weather szszs

Though based on the patches, its gonna just be rain on hot terrain

So prolly just volcano and desert areas

[full bison]

I just hope it's just an on field thing and it doesn't actually affect accuracy in game.

[alpine rune]

Im willing to believe it has an effect in game though

Sun, rain, sandstorm and hail is self explanatory

Fog would prolly work too

dunno how winds work tho

reduce evasion like sweet scent?

[full bison]

I'm down for removing evasion. That would actually be an interesting gameplay change.

Rock types rejoice at the prospect of being able to land attacks

[alpine rune]

or would it work like delta stream/cloud nine where it overwrites weather abilities

am i missing an overworld weather from gen 5

delta stream would be broken for flying types i feel

[quaint matrix]

The better move would be to buff Rock but hey that probably will never happen

GameFreak and their undying shilling for Water be like

[summer apex]

I mean, it's probably just going to be the same as the main game fog weather

[alpine rune]

i feel like rock the typing is good as it is, its the damn moves. Give us a 100% accurate rock move famefreak

[quaint matrix]

I personally do like the design idea of making Rock the "big damage big risk" type move-wise

I think the issue is just that we're about to be 10 gens in and Rock moves are like

Not that strong????

[full bison]

Also we could use some faster Rock Pokemon, just like how the only good Ice types are the fast ones

[alpine rune]

the accuracy kills it really

[summer apex]

Accuracy is reduced to 60% of base, applicable weather based effects get reduced as though in the wrong weather, Weather Ball gets a damage boost but no type change

[quaint matrix]

Like why is the ubiquitous Rock move 75 BP

[alpine rune]

100 base power is strong but like 80%??

[quaint matrix]

I don't mind it being badly accurate but 100 power for a 20% chance of miss is so not worth it

In that amount of missing chances you can just play Earthquake or any other 90 BP moves

[alpine rune]

yeah

[full bison]

Imagine how much the Rock type would rejoice if Mighty Cleave got wide distribution

[quaint matrix]

Rock just needs to be like

[alpine rune]

even the 75 BP misses 10% of the time i mean cmon its 75 bp

[quaint matrix]

A bit stronger than Ground damage wise if they're gonna still have bad accuracy

I'm no balance expert but say like

[summer apex]

To be fair. Have you ever tried throwing a rock at something? It's a lot less accurate than intentionally designed projectiles

[quaint matrix]

Rock Slide is 95 BP for 90% accuracy

Stone Edge is 140 BP for 80% accuracy

Etc etc

[twilit reef]

Head smash is pretty good

[quaint matrix]

Also un-signature Accelerock already

[full bison]

Another alternative is adding a No Guard Rock type that's better than Midnight Lycanroc

[summer apex]

rock slide also has a 30% flinch chance

95 BP / 90 Acc is perfectly fine

[quaint matrix]

Yeah and Head Smash should be like even stronger too in that respect

[alpine rune]

HAve you seen a sentient rock that can summon earthquake?

[full bison]

Head Smash should have a bit more distribution IMO as well. There's no reason Rock Head Aerodactyl shouldn't have it

[alpine rune]

[alpine rune]

low distribution

[quaint matrix]

Oh Head Smash does have 150 BP with 80% accuracy

[twilit reef]

But yeah rockslide is p good and annoying in doubles

[summer apex]

I have to wonder if they're hesitating in making new rock moves because of comp... a weakness to rock is already such a debilitating thing with how common stealth rock is

But then I remember that game freak doesn't actually care about comp

[quaint matrix]

Yeah see that's following my design opinion of Rock moves being "big damage boy big risk"

[alpine rune]

they should make more pokemon learn it imo

[quaint matrix]

Head Smash needs more distribution etc etc

[alpine rune]

hustle zweilious with head smash

[quaint matrix]

Also following my Rock Slide buff all the other Rock types should be buffed to parity

Even the low damage ones if they're innacurate to really sell that "big boy damage big boy risk" identity

[alpine rune]

we could make a rock slide move that has no flinch but like at least 90BP with 100% accuracy imo

just give rock one consistent physical option

[quaint matrix]

Eh it should just be a new move at that point

[full bison]

I still don't get how Gamefreak gave Aerodactyl Rock Head but the only recoil move it gets is Take Down of all things. Not even either of the STAB moves that it would have loved.

[quaint matrix]

I like my idea of it having bigger BP with that 90% accuracy still

[twilit reef]

The 30% flinch is pretty brutal

[summer apex]

again, I think Rock Slide is fine as is lol

[quaint matrix]

Something like Rock Blast where it's more damaging at 35 or 40 BP to really sell the difference

[full bison]

Flinches on Scald odds is evil, yeah.

[alpine rune]

i feel like my problem is that rock moves are just inconsistent

i just want one consistent option

[quaint matrix]

Rock Slide is "fine" relative to the sense that in Pokemons with the move none of them probably will ever pick it over Stone Edge

[alpine rune]

power gem is one but its on special side

[quaint matrix]

Which is not really an endorsement of Stone Edge it's just that it's not that great damage-wise

[silk cobalt]

a 100% accurate rock move

[quaint matrix]

It is funny that like all Rock special moves are the ones accurate always

[twilit reef]

And on dundparce/jirachi fusions. I mean on jirachi I guess you would use iron head

[full bison]

Common Glimmora W

[quaint matrix]

I think it's a funny identity to contrast which is why I maintain that things like Rock Slide and Stone Edge when buffed should maintain that accuracy silliness

[twilit reef]

Iron head is actually strictly better in every way

[quaint matrix]

If you want your Rock to hit really consistently so badly just play DIancie or Nosepass or any other Rock-type special mons

[twilit reef]

I guess it's not a doubles move

[rain locust]

its used on defensive rocks

[full bison]

Diancie prefers being physical anyway cause Diamond Storm is so obscenely good

Diamond Storm being physical also makes no sense, but that's how it is

[twilit reef]

Diamonds are rocks which are physical objects

Don't think about it too hard

[alpine rune]

tbh every typing has that one pokemon that doesnt makes sense in a way

[clear lichen]

I have 0 clue on how it goes for base Diancie but that's most definitely incorrect for Mega

I feel like Mega is always either Special or Mixed

[alpine rune]

Flying types have that vague distinction between winds and birds

same goes with water type, its just either water elemental or just plain fish

[clear lichen]

And when it is mixed it has clear special bias

[quaint matrix]

I'm glad they decided on the vague distinction

[alpine rune]

diamonds are usually known to resist to fire so fuck it, rock type it is

[quaint matrix]

Imagine a world where we just have Bird and Flying types, Fish and Water types

[alpine rune]

even if like diamonds are not usually weak to steel

its the closest example

[clear lichen]

I mean, physical lacks Ground Coverage and good Fairy STAB

So it makes sense why

Physical Fairy types having to pick between trash and

[clear lichen]

I mean, in a playthrough and Doubles, yeah

In Singles though I feel like Stone Edge is overall more common

That said, I like that I got on Showdown to go through the first 2 physical rock types alphabetically

And one was using Head Smash

And the other had Rock Blast as an option over Stone Edge

Well, I guess now I know Hisuian Avalugg runs Loaded Dice sometimes

Hisuian Arcanine is a bit of an unfair comparison though

Seeing it has Rock Head

[full bison]

I didn't know anyone used Hisuian Avalugg, honestly

[clear lichen]

Then we have Bastiodon whose smogon page is just on draft

And Carbink

Whose page also only talks on draft

They're both just worthless even in ZU

[rain locust]

https://tenor.com/view/carbink-gif-25570509

[full bison]

I figured Hisuian Avalugg was just immediately written off as a joke and nobody bothered trying to make it work

[clear lichen]

And then we have Coalossal who runs Special

And it isn't even running Power Gem

It's going for the coverage of Earth Power

And then Diancie who runs Diamond Storm Moonblast

Also runs Power Herb Meteor Beam which is kinda baller

Drednaw does have Stone Edge listed as its best STAB

But it's STILL COMPETING WITH LOADED DICE ROCK BLAST LMAOOOOO

Garganacl runs Salt Cure

[full bison]

What low accuracy does to a moves viability

[clear lichen]

Glimmora runs Power Gem

Golem is only viable in draft

Alolan Golem has a monotype entry though

... Which drops Rock STAB

Amazing

[full bison]

Aerodactyl on it's hands and knees begging for Head Smash

[clear lichen]

Iron Boulder runs Mighty Cleave, I don't even need to check

Iron Thorns ONLY runs Stone Edge

Wait brainfart

Meant to say it only runs Rock Blast

[alpine rune]

carbink not being a preevo to diancie bothers me

[clear lichen]

So uhh

[alpine rune]

Prolly they dont want a 150 base defenses to get eviolite huh

[clear lichen]

Loaded Dice Rock Blast is apparently just better than Stone Edge

Even after taking an item slot

Amazing

Klawf is worthless even in draft apparently

[full bison]

Would Eviolite Carbink even be viable? It has some horrible weaknesses

[clear lichen]

Kleavor most definitely will be running Stone Axe

Lycanroc Midday is in the same situation as Drednaw and Avalugg Hisui

Where it runs Stone Edge usually but can drop it for Loaded Dice Rock Blast

I want to note Rock Blast itself doesn't have perfect accuracy

[full bison]

Better than Stone Edge at least

[clear lichen]

Lycanroc also runs Accelerock on the same set

But like

No shit

Dusk runs Accelerock

And Stone Edge is an option

But it's a secondary option

Behind Psychic Fangs

💀

Midnight is worthless

According to Smogon

But if I had to guess, it runs Stone Edge since it has No Guard

Magcargo is also worthless

I have 0 guesses

Actually it is special attacker

So uhh

Power Gem or something

Minior runs Stone Edge in both NU and PU, but can run Substitute over it in both tiers and Tera Blast Ghost in NU

Ogerpon Cornerstone runs Ivy Cudgel

Probopass is not run at all

Same with Rampardos

Regirock runs non Loaded Dice Rock Blast in ZU

Just

Wow

It runs Stone Edge in PU though

Rhydon runs Stone Edge

[quaint matrix]

Remains one of the most baffling ways GF ever tried to buff a Pokemon

[clear lichen]

Rhyperior runs Stone Edge

[full bison]

What I'm getting out of this is that nobody that actually runs Stone Edge wants to

[quaint matrix]

"Let's make defensive Avalugg better"
"I agree, we should at least give it Steel and give it more Sp. Def so that-"
"No it should be Rock/Ice"

[clear lichen]

I find it cool that Own Tempo Rockruff is listed as Rockruff Dusk

Seeing it only evolves into Dusk form Lycanroc

[quaint matrix]

[full bison]

Steel/Ice Avalugg probably wouldn't be too much better TBF

[clear lichen]

Stonjourner and Sudowoodo do not exist either

[quaint matrix]

I mean Ice is a horrid defensive typing in general but you could like

Do way better than Rock/Ice lmao

[clear lichen]

Terrakion runs Stone Edge

And so does Ttar

So overall

Half the time Stone Edge is run there are other options

[full bison]

It's near impossible to do worse TBF. Like, there's only one worse type combo in Bug/Ice

Gamefreak's 2 neglected children

[clear lichen]

And Stone Edge is sometimes THE other option

[quaint matrix]

Unless your Rock/Ice types are working like these fuses don't fucking bother

[clear lichen]

Rock Blast is run less tbf

But the fact that it is run over Stone Edge at all

Even though in some cases it is the only move that benefits off of Loaded Dice on the set

[quaint matrix]

It's still impressive how much Steel really shores almost every single weaknesses Bug have and work it out with only a big Fire weakness like how Water/Ground only has a big Grass weakness

[clear lichen]

AND THAT IT IS RUN WITHOUT LOADED DICE OVER STONE EDGE IN ONE SCENARIO

Is absolutely wild

[quaint matrix]

But in every other typing combo (except maybe Psychic?) it is patently just a load

[quaint matrix]

Again this speaks to how Rock moves are just weak in general tho

Even if you discount the fact that they miss a lot

The BP they give you is absolutely not worth the squeeze

[clear lichen]

Rock Slide just does not exist

And the funniest shit?

Non Signature Physical Rock moves are run about as much as Signature Physical Rock moves

[quaint matrix]

Again we're back to my suggestion that if Rock moves are supposed to miss as the big risk identity they could at least buff the BP of it but nope have fun with 75 BP and 90% accuracy

And when Rock moves are good (signature moves) it almost doesn't really matter because those mons either got better things to do (Lycanrock Midday, Diancie) or they're just too shit to really matter even with the sig moves

[clear lichen]

Iron Boulder is UUBL with a niche in OU tbf

I feel like on Iron Boulder the worse typing is easily Psychic

What the fuck does Iron Boulder's Psychic Type do for it

Give it more weaknesses?

[full bison]

Crazy how Physical Rock moves are in an identical situation to physical Electric moves when physical is supposed to be Rock's primary attribute

[clear lichen]

Give it perhaps the worst "best option" physical STAB in the entire game?

Like idk about you

[quaint matrix]

Gee I wonder why Iron Boulder is actually doing great

[clear lichen]

But I'd run Stone Edge over Zen Headbutt any fucking day of the week

[quaint matrix]

Could not figure it out for the life of me...

[clear lichen]

Iron Boulder's Psychic Type serves to nerf it

That's its only use

[full bison]

Also cause its actually got decent speed

[clear lichen]

It doesn't even help its MU into Great Tusk

[quaint matrix]

Oh you mean the Weavile treatment noooooooooooooooo

[clear lichen]

Since Zen Headbutt hits like a wet potato

[quaint matrix]

Rock-types being fast? That's not the identity

They should be slow molasses lumbering beasts

And defensive!

[silk cobalt]

with low hp

[clear lichen]

Iron Boulder is such a sad case

Because it could've been OU proper if it just had a secondary type that wasn't dogshit

[quaint matrix]

Honestly the fact that it's got the big Psychic-type dual typing as its own nerf and it still does work in OU is like

[clear lichen]

Literally, Rock/Steel would've been better

[quaint matrix]

Idk maybe a testament that you need your Rock types to be fast and consistently big damaging and it will rock up the tier

[clear lichen]

That's how bad the Psychic Type is in the context of Iron Boulder

[quaint matrix]

If it was even just mono-typed or given a much more workable (but still shittier) dual typing like Steel or Dark or even Ground like

[clear lichen]

In part that's because Dark is a very prominent type in Gen 9 OU

[quaint matrix]

It would be Uber not even gonna think about it

[full bison]

Dark will always be prominent as long as Knock Off and Sucker Punch are around and don't get nerfed

[quaint matrix]

Wild Charge still being the only good Physical electric move is sad but like yeah it at least makes sense that it's still the only big rep

Probably haven't thought of any good Electric physical move ideas yet

[rain locust]

shouldve been rock fighting fr

[clear lichen]

We got Darkrai, Kingambit, Weavile, Lokix, Ting-Lu (who tbf doesn't run Dark moves apart from Ruination), Hisuian Samurott and, until recently, Roaring Moon

[quaint matrix]

But Rock can go into so many ways and yet we' re still stuck with these shitty type of moves about 10 gens in

[clear lichen]

All of the Pokemon being listed having been above A- rank

The only reason for past tense usage is that Roaring Moon got banned

[full bison]

Maybe just... Make Supercell Slam have the same power as High Jump Kick instead of plain ol' jump kick? Gamefreak almost made something viable there but tripped at the finish line

[clear lichen]

Agreed

Why did they make it a Jump Kick clone when Jump Kick doesn't even exist

Well

It does exist if you use Metronome

It's not that it was dexited

Kinda?

It's more so nothing fucking learns it

So it may as well be completely removed

Because who the hell is running Metronome

At least, according to Showdown Metronome still calls it

[full bison]

And almost everything that learns Jump Kick also learns High Jump Kick too

[quaint matrix]

It is very funny that they don't even wanna take the plunge of making it 130 BP yeah

[vocal pivot]

Metronome format

[quaint matrix]

Like if this is the identity of Physical Electric going forward (just damages you constantly) at least go all out

[clear lichen]

Honestly, screw Pikachu, distribute Volt Tackle

[vocal pivot]

Ong

[clear lichen]

It's literally a Flare Blitz clone

[vocal pivot]

Let's jump pikachu

[clear lichen]

There is 0 reason to not distribute it apart from favouritism from being the mascot

[full bison]

Physical Electric moves being extremely powerful but all having devastating drawbacks would be such a strong identity for it. Too bad Gamefreak is apparently scared of the "powerful" part

[clear lichen]

At least Wild Charge is not Submission

[full bison]

Makes sense too, considering how dangerous electricity is in real life

[clear lichen]

I guess

It could've been worse

[vocal pivot]

Getting my crowbar. Who's joining me in jumping the rat?

[clear lichen]

Electric resists Steel you doofus

[vocal pivot]

Crowbar moves are super effective on rat types

[clear lichen]

Now that I mention it, does Fighting have a move in the 80-95 BP range with 0 drawback?

Because when you think of good Fighting moves

You think Close Combat, HJK and, to an extent, Superpower

120-130 BP moves with massive drawbacks

[full bison]

Aura Sphere, but that has horrible distribution

[vocal pivot]

Focus miss

[full bison]

good Fighting moves

[clear lichen]

Focus Blast is like Close Combat

[vocal pivot]

""""Good""""

[clear lichen]

Except instead of the drawback being a bad stat drop

It's having to hit the darn thing

[vocal pivot]

They should give a fighting type contrary and superpower

[clear lichen]

Well

[full bison]

The most accurate the anime has ever been to the games was when they portrayed Focus Blast missing horribly lol

[clear lichen]

Sacred Sword exists

But it has quite the poor distribution

Sky Uppercut has imperfect accuracy

So it's not great

Cross Chop is Stone Edge

And a lot of the other moves in this range are signature moves

[quaint matrix]

Like Rock!

[clear lichen]

There is Body Press though

[alpine rune]

"So that was focus blast? Mind telling me where the focus went?"

[quaint matrix]

Remember Submission

[clear lichen]

Would you rather run Supershit Slam/Wack Charge or Stone Miss/Rock Blast (I couldn't think of a name for this)

[quaint matrix]

GameFreak Farms remember

[clear lichen]

80 BP 80 Accuracy with Recoil is uhh

Memorable

It definitely is a memorable move

[quaint matrix]

A classic Gen 1 moment

[clear lichen]

I mean not exactly for the same reason as Close Combat but like

[quaint matrix]

Just like how all the good Bug moves are given to the shittiest one and the good types are languishing with shitty Normals

[thin pawn]

It's kinda funny how we went from 80 bp 80 accuracy with recoil to 100 bp 100 accuracy increased super effective damage

[clear lichen]

Idk, Bug actually has quite a few good moves statistically

[full bison]

Mention Submission to a Machamp that was alive for Gen 1 and you'll get to witness a 4 armed bodybuilder start sobbing uncontrollably

[clear lichen]

The main issue with a Bug move isn't the move

[alpine rune]

It's the bug

[clear lichen]

It's the fact that Bug is perhaps the worst offensive type in the game

I will say, I think Bug is defensively overhated

[full bison]

All the good bugs don't use that STAB besides Lokix thanks to Tinted Lens

[clear lichen]

Bug/Steel isn't the only bug type combo that isn't bad defensively

[quaint matrix]

Idk if Twinneedle got distributed to the good bugs it might've actually made Psychic a workable type to fight against in Gen 1

[clear lichen]

Bug/Water's pretty decent too

[quaint matrix]

Yeah it's offensiveness where Bug is pissrat

[alpine rune]

Good bugs? In gen 1?

[quaint matrix]

Only really effective to three types that already had a lot of debilitating weaknesses

[clear lichen]

Bug/Fire is kinda like Flying/Fire

[quaint matrix]

And for some reason way too many types resist it

[clear lichen]

Where before HDB exists nobody would ever give a singular fuck about it defensively

But it's not terrible too even with the caveat that you must use your item slot on HDB

At the end of the day, that's 6 types Volcarona can set up on

For free

[quaint matrix]

Pinsir and Scyther would have been really good if they have access to Twinneedle let's be real

[vocal pivot]

Closest were scyther and pinsir. Pinsir sometimes throws hands in ou as a swords dancer but it's immediately blanked by gengar

[clear lichen]

Scyther is not a good bug in Gen 1 at all

Pinsir is decent in Gen 1 though

[quaint matrix]

Gen 1 Bugs would have actually been set up for success if they just have moves

[clear lichen]

I mean not in an OU context but still

[vocal pivot]

*Closest

[clear lichen]

It does have a niche in OU

Can you say that about any of the other Bug types?

No, no you can't

[vocal pivot]

Pinsir the goat

[clear lichen]

Bug is not the worst type on paper in Gen 1 for sure

[quaint matrix]

I love finding out that the one time Beedrill excels in Gen 1 (Pokemon Perfect 7U) it turns out it's still absolutely dog water and it's falling all the way off anyway

[alpine rune]

Not really since poison is actually weak to bugs back then but I digress

I feel like the speed is the problem when you have alakazam and starmie rolling around with crit spam, haven't gotten to the electrode part which would heavily screw with scyther specifically

[clear lichen]

It's just they really did not want to add Bug moves to the game

[quaint matrix]

They do add them

[full bison]

Gen 1 was funny about move distribution

[clear lichen]

What Bug move does Pinsir get

[quaint matrix]

Just only on the shittiest Bug though because classic Gen 1

[clear lichen]

Answer me right now

[alpine rune]

Nada

[clear lichen]

Exactly

Does Pinsir get EQ in Gen 1?

But yeah Pinsir's issue in Gen 1 is definitely speed

[vocal pivot]

Ye, I can see that. Pinsir is in niche territory afterall

[quaint matrix]

As I said

[full bison]

Shout out to Jolteon to having the only Bug move in Gen 1 that could be argued as good

[clear lichen]

Gengar can't Levitate if Levitate doesn't exist

(Or is Levitate is removed from Gengar)

[quaint matrix]

If Scyther and Pinsir just have Twinneedle and like

Moves

[alpine rune]

Yea I'm talking about if pinsir gets twineedle it won't help much against alakazam if it gets crit outsped by said alakazam

[clear lichen]

Fair, fair

[quaint matrix]

Psychic wouldn't be so broken

[full bison]

Jolteon is my favorite Gen 1 Bug

[vocal pivot]

Good for riling up eggs

[clear lichen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the only Bug type with usable STAB in Gen 1 Beedrill?

[alpine rune]

Psychic is just hillariously broken back in gen 1 and now 20+ years later, it's the mid type alongside normal which is crazy to think about

[clear lichen]

Yknow, one of the 2 with the Psychic weakness?

[alpine rune]

Yes-ish? I think all bug type moves in gen 1 is just low base power stuff

[clear lichen]

Fighting and Bug are decent types on paper

Until they get 0 fucking moves

[alpine rune]

[clear lichen]

For Fighting in particular, doesn't help that it has a bad MU into the other top type

[full bison]

Fighting with actual moves in Gen 1 would have been amazing, what with all the Normal types dominating

[quaint matrix]

Every other type gets extra buffs in defensiveness and offensiveness

Meanwhile Normal and Psychic hasn't got fucking jack

[vocal pivot]

Then there's my boy hitmonlee with hi-jump kick but he's paper thin

[clear lichen]

Poison was probably just doomed from the start in a Gen 1 context tbh

[alpine rune]

[quaint matrix]

Psychic arguably worse because not only did the type they counter got stronger (or irrelevant like Poison) the types countering them just keeps getting better and better

[alpine rune]

Psychic has idk psychic terrain and... Expanding force or soemthing

[clear lichen]

Biggest type fall off has to be Psychic

[alpine rune]

Oh yea definitely

[clear lichen]

I cant see it being any other type

[full bison]

Psychic is a feast or famine type nowadays. Normally it's awful, then you get Psychic Surge Expanding Force going and it's insane

[quaint matrix]

Psychic only clings on because it's getting steroid injected by GameFreak (50% of legendary Pokemons are Psychic because...because)

[clear lichen]

I guess if you think Psychic is a mid tier type and that Ice is a low tier type you could argue Ice?

Since Ice was pretty good in Gen 1 iirc

[vocal pivot]

Ye

[clear lichen]

Also could argue Normal

But I do not think Psychic is mid tier at all

[quaint matrix]

Normal really could've been buffed in Gen 6 man they were so robbed

[clear lichen]

That's way too generous

[full bison]

Freeze was permanent in Gen 1 so yeah it was kinda good back then

[quaint matrix]

Imagine Normal being effective to Fairy and also blanking Fairy...

[clear lichen]

I think it's a straight up low tier type tbh

[alpine rune]

Remove Fire and Steel's resistance to Ice and make Ice resist water pls game freak

[clear lichen]

Gen 1 kinda did the first 2

[alpine rune]

Yea exactly revert it back

[clear lichen]

And Fighting also may as well not have been a weakness

[full bison]

Ice not resisting Water makes sense. I'd make Ice resist Ground, Grass, and Dragon

[quaint matrix]

That and also the only weaknesses that ever mattered to them was Rock and Rock's distribution/moves is kinda shit lol

[clear lichen]

Because lmao

[quaint matrix]

Fire doesn't really exist competitively and Fighting is

Well yknow

[clear lichen]

I think either Ice and Water resist each other or don't

[quaint matrix]

I'll do you one better

Water gets hit super effectively by Ice

[full bison]

Water resists Ice cause you can't freeze running water

[clear lichen]

OK but you'll see Moltres a lot more than you'll see uhh

[quaint matrix]

"But how about Freeze Dry" who cares just make it do 4x time damage idc

[clear lichen]

... What Fighting Types do you use in Gen 1?

Machamp?

Poliwrath?

Idk

You'll see Moltres and Fire Coverage more than you'll see those and Fighting Coverage, I'd reckon

By that I mean you'll see the latter a grand total of 0 times

[quaint matrix]

Most you'll see is Poliwrath and Poliwrath absolutely doesn't get used because of the Fighting type

[full bison]

Also, don't know how hot a take this is, but if Fairy is apparently all about being the nature type, it should be weak to Grass

[vocal pivot]

I don't think seismic toss counts

[clear lichen]

Hold up... let them cook

[quaint matrix]

I argue Fairy should also be weak to Psychic types but hey

[clear lichen]

Grass is by far the worst starter type

I think it could use a buff like that

[fluid phoenix]

I think it would be cool to have rideable pokemon but that seems so incredibly impossible to do

[quaint matrix]

Grass is also good and it feeds into my Grass enjoyer self

[clear lichen]

I'd rather make Grass resist Fairy though

Same with Bug vs Fairy

[quaint matrix]

I think Fairy as a type is just so wack defensively like why are you resisting Bug

[clear lichen]

I'd rather turn those into resists than weaknesses

[vocal pivot]

Ong

[clear lichen]

Especially given how Bug is ONLY usable defensively anyways

[quaint matrix]

Okay I said wack but really the only wack thing is the Bug one

[full bison]

I still can't believe Gamefreak nerfed Bug when they added Fairy. Just... Why? It was already a bad type

[quaint matrix]

Bug is already resisted by a zillion type why add on to it lmao

[clear lichen]

You can have Fairy continue resisting Bug or you can make that SE

It does not fucking matter for the Bug types

Since they're resisted by everything under the sun anyways

Well it'll help Heracross a ton

Seeing it actually runs Bug STAB and its Fighting STAB is resisted by Fairy

So that's cool

[quaint matrix]

While we're here talking about types

I think it's about time Ghost gets resisted by Steel again

Or even better

Rock resists it

[clear lichen]

I do think Ghost is probably one of the strongest types

[quaint matrix]

It's getting real tiresome to see it as the blank all attacking type considering how much of a nonexistence Normal is defensively rn

[clear lichen]

But I don't think you should buff another strongest type to nerf it

Making Rock resist it would be hype though

That said idk if that'd really make Rock a viable defensive type

[quaint matrix]

Well related to that I have my own ideas on what to do with Steel so hypothetically that's not the only change to Steel

[quaint matrix]

It would give it a bigger niche for sure

[full bison]

Bring Pursuit back! It was THE best means of checking the Ghost type! Removing it was one of Gamefreak's worst balance decisions, and that says a lot!

[clear lichen]

Nah, remove the bigger again

I cant think of a single time where Rock has done something defensively in a higher tier

[vocal pivot]

I'd remove one of rock's weaknesses

[clear lichen]

Garganacl's main relation with the Rock type is that it's the type it automatically terastalises out of

[quaint matrix]

I only thought of that because of the Nacli line that just for some reason has the sig ability of resisting Ghost

[vocal pivot]

Probably grass or ground

[quaint matrix]

Like oh yeah there's that flavor so like WHY DON'T ROCK DO IT ANYWAY

[clear lichen]

Grass doesn't need a nerf

[quaint matrix]

Water

Idc kill that type I'm getting sick of type getting away with being overtly good defensively

[vocal pivot]

Possibly

[quaint matrix]

It should be weak to Poison and Ice as well

[clear lichen]

Water is like if Steel traded some of its defensive points to its offensive MUs

I think the generally agreed best types are like, Fairy, Steel, Water and Ground

Though I'd say Ground is a lot less extreme than Fairy, Steel or Water

[quaint matrix]

I think Ground is balanced amazingly tbh

[clear lichen]

I feel like the top 3 is those 3 types in any order

[quaint matrix]

Between Flying and Levitate they got a lot of ways to counter them

And they're not exactly defensively amazing either

[clear lichen]

And they're the only types I think are straight up problematic with the exception of probably Ghost

[full bison]

Ghost has a good argument for the top 5 too

[clear lichen]

I think my top 5 is the 4 types I mentioned and Ghost

I think Ghost is more unbalanced than Ground

[quaint matrix]

Ground is Big 5 but imo it's the only good big 5

[clear lichen]

But is it better?

Not entirely sure

[quaint matrix]

Everything else in the big 5 is just overtly good for no reason

[clear lichen]

I'd say it is better

But I know some people would disagree with that notion

Ghost is like what people say the Psychic Type is

A type that excels off neutral matchups offensively while retaining a good defensive profile

[quaint matrix]

I didn't mention this change on the part of Steel

So in relation to Psychic

It has been a good long time

[clear lichen]

Make Psychic SE vs Steel please

[quaint matrix]

It's time to make Psychic effective to Steel

Yeah lmao

[clear lichen]

Fuck making it neutral

Send it straight to SE

[vocal pivot]

[quaint matrix]

No just super effective

[full bison]

Bending metal objects is literally the big Psychic thing

[quaint matrix]

We're long past concessions for Psychic

[clear lichen]

If you say Gen 1 Psychic Type most people will think of Alakazam

And Alakazam's whole thing is bending metal objects

[quaint matrix]

Steel should just get chunked by Psychic the nerf has been here for a long time

[clear lichen]

Sure they're only spoons

But I do not give a shit

Psychic imo is a bottom 3 type because just

Not only is it overwhelmingly under average

[vocal pivot]

I could see kinesis being a move that's SE against steel

[clear lichen]

But it may be the only type where I'd say there's another type that is just directly better than it in 90% of situations

Being Ghost

The types Psychic is good against, Ghost is too in some way or form

[quaint matrix]

Nah I'm done with Freeze Dry ass moves

[clear lichen]

And far, FAR less types actually check Ghost than Psychic

[quaint matrix]

Just super effective to Steel

[clear lichen]

Not only that, but the types that check Psychic are just better than the types that check Ghost

Except for the ones the share

The one thing where Psychic is better is as a Coverage move

Well not better

Actually, probably better

But the point here is that while having a STAB Ghost or Psychic move vs a Poison or Fighting type means even without it you probably win

Since Ghost is fully immune to Fighting and resists Poison