📚lore-discussion

[frigid sparrow]

and we fight and permakill him in ghosts of the deep

[torpid flint]

The fate of a lot of side characters tbh

So basically, she argues that Guardians have to be introspective enough to find and break themselves down to become stronger

How has the House of Light been in the lore?

Idk why Earmis isn't dead yet but, its more tolerable than Immaru

[slim girder]

Eramis is gone now. Left Sol in episode revenant to hopefully rebuild a new Riis far away from all of us.

As for house light they are content where they are.
Eido and the pikers boss Riliks have a lil "something something" going rn in renegades

[fringe sundial]

eramis took the echo of riis and left sol with her people

more dialogue than crota btw

[haughty stump]

Bro can't catch a break lmfao

Looks worse here

[haughty stump]

I don't think crota can even speak

Only some hive can for some reason

[slim girder]

He can. And has in some lore.

Also many hive can speak they just don't because I don't think bungie wants to spend money on VA for minor hive.
So they save it for the special characters of the hive such as Oryx, Savathun, Xivu Arath, Luzaku, etc

But there are also lore cards from hive wizards and knights having conversations and such

[haughty stump]

Wow that's crazy

And annoying

You can hear elikniski speak

Even if it loops

Also I'm confused when Savathun got the light. When she betrayed the witness, and killed Nezarec ( btw if he was dead why was his head on witness ship, and his body in pyramid?) She sealed Rhulk with a light spell. So she got the light right after the collapse? But then why was she in Osiris?

[slim girder]

Savathun got the light after she had escaped from us after the ritual we used to extract her worm from her. She died in the process and then immaru showed up and brought her back, her first resurrection so that made her a lightbearer

Savathun betrayed the witness back during the collapse

As for nezerec he is the embodiment of fear and nightmares. Killing him in his physical body doesn't do the job and he can manifest through nightmares. Again he IS fear

You can't kill that kind of thing

Also she wasn't IN Osiris she basically body swapped him and trapped Osiris in his own mind to watch as Savathun walked around the tower while he couldn't do anything to stop her.

If you played witch queen this all would be explained

[haughty stump]

I did. I just forgot

[haughty stump]

How was she able to seal Rhulk then

[slim girder]

Rhulk wasn't sealed exactly. He was more exiled to watch savathun under orders from the witness

[haughty stump]

Why didn't he kill Savathun after she betrayed the witness?

[haughty stump]

So.. wait then he's more immortal then the witness?

[slim girder]

Pretty much yes. Nezarec even says himself when he dies in the root of nightmares raid that he'd always be in our nightmares.

[slim girder]

He wasn't ordered to. Also if savathuns throne world, a place she had absolute control over. Not to mention she also is able to come back through her ghost.
She is currently the most resilient enemy in destiny rn.
You'd need to kill her 3 times in 3 different ways to actually kill her for good.
First normally, then in her throne, then you also need to kill her ghost

[ember storm]

the witness lowkey just wanted to get rid of him for being annoying

the reason his pyramid is filled with a bunch of weird art deco shit is bc it just left him alone with an unachievable task

[haughty stump]

So he will come back again. How did witness create a being like that? Or he wasn't created but rather a fundamental property of the darkness, in which case why was bro serving Witness and not being an equal?

[haughty stump]

You're telling me bro doesn't do anything without orders?

Lmao

[ember storm]

He’s a muscle head with daddy issues who basically declared himself an intellectual, so

[blazing wasp]

oh god

rhulk is a redditor

[ember storm]

He has such a way with words

[slim girder]

The witness is very persuasive. All his disciples had a vision of the final shape and through discipleship became stronger thanks to enhancements from the witness

[haughty stump]

The final shape is like. Nothing right? It's like the third impact

[haughty stump]

Damn

[slim girder]

A perfect stillness of the universe. No more life, no more death, everything in the universe calcified.

A "perfect" shape

[queen swallow]

The Witness was like, "I'm going to cube you." And then cubed you

[fringe sundial]

the closest thing to the final shape is unironically taco tuesday from the lego movie

lord business is the witness

[queen swallow]

The Witness is Will Ferrell? Bummer of a career move

[slim girder]

I think what's most impressive about the witness is that all its voices are one person. They just did a bunch of audio work for it to give each different voice from the witness personality.

Each dissenter sounds different but it's still all being spoken by the same VA

[haughty stump]

Can't remember the Lego movie

[ember storm]

[candid inlet]

waltzsobs (ID 449393682622185472)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
literally just the plot of the lego movie actually

Command triggered by waltzsobs. Message link from · Jun 13, 2024, 11:56 AM

[slow berry]

its both about the lego characters and real people

the movie is a young child playing with lego making a story about how his dad wants to stop him from moving the lego around and plans on using krazy glue to glue all the lego pieces together so they're all permanently fixed

its similar to the final shape in that like

well, basically the same thing with different looks

everything perfectly still forever in the way lord business(?)/the witness wants it to be

[haughty stump]

that, kinda sounds boring

[slow berry]

oh dont worry you wouldn't be bored

you wouldn't be like

a whole lot, in general

[haughty stump]

i thought it was gonna be like the third impact

how humanity is like perfectly together

no change

just one

[slow berry]

well no

[haughty stump]

the winnower loved that whats it called, the "endgame pattern"

[slow berry]

its just the witness' perfect state for the universe, across the universe

[haughty stump]

it's so weird, i mean the civilization was nomadic

all they did was change

[slow berry]

what civilization

[haughty stump]

witness's

[slow berry]

no it wasn't

[haughty stump]

no?

[slow berry]

it lived in its original planet until they tried to enact the final shape, causing the traveler to flee

then they coalesced into the witness and chased after it

[haughty stump]

well nomadic within the planet i believed

[slow berry]

at which point it was just the one planet

[slow berry]

that'd be like saying humans are nomads bc they were nomads 6000 years ago

[haughty stump]

hmm okay i see

in a way,, with how they humanity goes all over sol

during the golden age

nah nvm thats stretching it

[haughty stump]

anyway back to this, would the veil have allowed this?

[slow berry]

sure, why not

we don't have reason to believe the veil is sentient

just a part of the traveler

[haughty stump]

i thought the gardender and the winnower both consented to changed the rules

[haughty stump]

wait what?!

[slow berry]

not at all

also the veil is not the winnower

[haughty stump]

yea that have to be the case

for me to then to be wrong

[slow berry]

while we don't know much about the veil but we believe it to be part of the traveler

who we can reasonably assume to be the gardener in that story

[haughty stump]

that would mean the traveler is able to possess both light and dark

[haughty stump]

hmmm that is so interesting

and confusing

i find myself getting an answer to one question

and then two more take it's place

[ember storm]

Not the way it is now, no

But if they were once two parts of a greater whole then it wouldn’t have been the traveler to begin with

[haughty stump]

But then, is the veil a part of the traveler or its counterpart?

[ember storm]

The idea would be that there was some larger original thing that wasn’t simply one of the two

[haughty stump]

Yea cause no such thing as time

Like before big bang

[dim minnow]

The Traveler itself is basically confirmed to be the Gardener

and Unveiling and Dreams of Alpha Lupi state that the Gardener was cut down by the Winnower and lost something important which I believe is the Veil

of course, there is much debate about this

this is just my particular interpretation

[slim girder]

My personal theory on this is that this tree spoken about in iirc unveiling which we know to be that giant stump in the black garden was where the traveler and veil were one the same with the traveler being a "fruit" and the veil being the part of the branch of said tree holding the traveler.

[dim minnow]

that's a new one

[slim girder]

The veil is connected to consciousness and a tree would be perfect symbolism for that. So what if the veil was originally a connection point to this tree.

Like the end of the veil looks like it was cut imo. Like when you cut a good branch and see all the living plant on the inside.

[raven epoch]

I want to get back into destiny 2 but haven't really played since they vaulted everything

Can I still understand the story ?

[dim minnow]

the main Light and Dark saga came to an end so now they're starting a new saga

which began with Edge of Fate

[fringe sundial]

pretty good time to start from a story perspective

[slim girder]

Shadowkeep up to final shape are still in the game and will give you plenty of story to understand

[celest trail]

What is this?

[jagged badge]

Just a thing

It’s nothing important it’s just random techy shit lying around

[celest trail]

oh

[jagged badge]

Actually, it’s so unimportant that the only reason it looks all explodey is because the object got reused and retextured for a Lightfall mission, which retroactively changed this instance of the object on Europa

Which initially led people to believe something was happening on Europa and being teased through subtle environmental changes

[celest trail]

lol

[jagged badge]

Fun little story

[celest trail]

It's funny

[jagged badge]

Oh yeah, if you look, the orange parts are visibly Cabal tech

[celest trail]

Shield

[jagged badge]

Since it was used as some kind of core thingy on a Cabal ship in Lightfall’s opening mission

[celest trail]

I forgor the first mission

[wraith kernel]

In the EoF campaign there comes a part where they say even the Vex can't send shit back in time.

But sometimes in the past DLCs we SAW stuff in the past using Vex tech.

We messed with the Corridors of Time with Osiris' ahamkara silly machine, went back in time and gave Saint the shotgun and then changed the timeline afterwards to save him from death and bring him into our present...

So like wtf?

[blazing wasp]

ok so, this one seems like a retcon, but its not

are you familiar with how a "timeline" works

[wraith kernel]

linear time is bullshit

but yes me understando

[blazing wasp]

As far as i understand: essentially, vex cant really send stuff back in time, but they can fuck around with timelines, their expertise seems to be manipulating them, taking things from timeline x to y, jumping from this to that

which essentially allows them a rudimentary form of time travel

in the corridors of time, it didnt show our actual future that will happen, for one we already prevented that it'll ever happen like that.

because we didnt make the bastion with saint-14

[wraith kernel]

OHHH

[blazing wasp]

we stole it from our grave.

[wraith kernel]

so while they CANT go back in the past of X timeline, they can pull shit from the past of Y timeline

comunicate with each other, thats why there are past present and future model vex

[blazing wasp]

from what i understand (and i might be incorrect here), yes

[wraith kernel]

it seems like the most correct and logical conclusion tbh

[blazing wasp]

"Warlocks say that if the vex could time travel, they would've won already, shoot em anyway" -The Drifter

[wraith kernel]

omg true

Gambit coming in clutch

[blazing wasp]

we know at the very least that the vex can manipulate timelines a lot, its how the core mechanics of VoG work

[wraith kernel]

So the Saint we gave a shotgun to was another Saint and the one we have now the same but different Saint from say timeline Y

as example

[blazing wasp]

ok so the shit with the infinite garden is a little different, the Saint we meet there is always the same one

the infinite gardens weirdness is actually the only reason we were able to get saint in the first place.

but it is a saint from a different timeline.

since our Saint died, we found his grave, heard his dying recorded words

[queen swallow]

Actually, if I'm remembering right, the Vex and the Nine and whatnot can't travel back in time. But we can. And that's very funny to me.

[blazing wasp]

we've never actually traveled back in time i think?

[queen swallow]

Sundial, if I'm remembering Dawn right

[blazing wasp]

infinite forest is all wackadoo

its at the very least a past

or maybe its not

since its not "our" saint

assuming information that would disprove this theory exists
its not out of the question that the timeline the saint we have is from is x amount of years in the past

so neither party time traveled, our timeline was just "further ahead"

[slow berry]

desert perpetual (epic mode)

[trim grotto]

Our best guess is that it's a generator, at least before the silly texturing issue Eris mentioned.

[celest trail]

Alright

[haughty stump]

why is that fusion rifle so important?

[queen swallow]

Saint-14 declares it our favorite weapon in a speech when we found our grave in the Corridors of Time

[haughty stump]

we found our own grave?!

[queen swallow]

Yes and no? Corridors of Time are weird. It is certainly a grave of the Guardian. I am not sure if it's our grave in a different timeline or our grave in our current timeline.

[trim grotto]

I'm quite confident in saying it was simply a grave from a timeline. That's the point of the Corridors, after all.

It's also more aligned with our experience of timelines and time travel.

[queen swallow]

Hi Mael! Have you gotten through the new expansions yet?

[trim grotto]

Uuuuuuhhhhhh

No comment

[queen swallow]

Do you mind lore spoilers for at least Edge of Fate?

[trim grotto]

Nah go for it

It's on me at this point

[queen swallow]

Fair enough

[trim grotto]

If this is about pulling things forward in time then I'm more referencing Echoes, showcasing how Saint is from a neighbouring timeline, which also aligns with our experience of the Undying Mind, or the Braytech time travel, or more

[queen swallow]

The opposite, actually. How were we able to move backwards in time to give Saint his own shotgun in Season of Dawn when there's not been much evidence of time travel like that in Destiny?

In Edge of Fate, the Vex were either restated (or retconned) to be essentially stepping sideways through to different timelines rather than forwards or backwards through one timeline.

[trim grotto]

Well, referencing Echoes again, that's exactly what we were told happened.

The Saint we saved was not quite the Saint of our timeline.

We essentially tied two timelines together, making both pasts true, so to speak.

[haughty stump]

what in the fuck?

so the real saint is dead?

and we fucked over someone else's timeline?

[trim grotto]

We've seen his corpse. Twice, in fact.

Regardless, this aligns with our experience finding the grave. If all of our time travel is actually timeline sidestepping, then finding the grave aligns rather well with that setting. It's our grave from a parallel timeline, a different us.

[trim grotto]

Potentially. It's one of the reasons why we decommissioned the Sundial; the device that Osiris made to access the Corridors of Time in the first place.

That, and the Red Legion nearly destroyed OUR timeline with it.

[haughty stump]

and that Osiris was savathun all along

[trim grotto]

Not at the time, thankfully. That came later, during Season of the Hunt.

[haughty stump]

hmmm ohh i say, yk it's kinda stupid, we should at least have access to the campaigns of each season, like go to timeline, click on the season for the new page, and then go through the missions, don't do the dumb quest stuff, just do the missions, ngl my overhaul of the Destiny UI would be crazy, can i yap about it?

[trim grotto]

There are technical reasons why D2 is as restricted in content as it is, but... Yes, it is a terrible shame.

You may yap; but I'm going to drive home now and won't be back for forty minutes.

[queen swallow]

Drive safe!

[haughty stump]

yea yea technical, i highly doubt they can't put in the work to actually optimize everything enough so it def can handle being less storage, at the very least they should have broken d2 up a bit, buttt thats a different case, and tbh COD regularly goes 200-300gigs, we can do that honestly if it's actually good

ok so first off, we need to understand to have a balance for new players, and then veterans can have more freedom,
after you select your character you should be prompted with a page

Campagin/Portal & timeline ( first tutorial gameplay)
Main page
main page is locked for new players, and it's typically everything you are used to,
portal doesn't mean exactly the "current portal", but rather be an introductory organzied hub, that
A: tells you where you are on the timeline, with
B: on the side tabs, give you a visual or even a video breakdown of how
B1: Armor and weapons work
B2: subclasses
B3: perks
and everything else in due time
, from there have like required quests to do crucible matches, strikes, a couple more campagin stuff etc,
then you can go to the main page, which is what we know and all
it has a similar style to how COD works, but still has a familar ui for players and how destiny is designed

[wraith kernel]

can someone give me a summary of what happens between EoF and Renegades?
I'm doing Heliostat and uhhh, did Maya lose the Echo of Command?

[slim elk]

Nah
Her control loosened over it somewhat

Killing Earth (III) apparently did a number on the Echo

[wraith kernel]

oh

skill issue

[slim girder]

Here's a small summary I guess.
We learn about the prophecy after IIIs death
We stop vex in the unknown space during the desert perpetual raid
Mayas echo has been damaged and the being inside of it is not happy with her for using its power that way.
Earth starts to go haywire with places like the Andes mountains turning to copper, iron raining from the sky and oxygen turning to argon in spots
Maya turns her efforts to the plaguelands and has begun pulling old red legion through time as extra forces.
During heliostat we stop her from using this ability and stop her plans of using that facility to spread her influence.

[wraith kernel]

i cant wait to kill her

it'll be so cool

[slim girder]

Given her already desperate drive to get what she wants my theory is that she' pull a "If i can't have it no one can" move and overload her echo causing it to explode and take her with it.

[wraith kernel]

she REALLY needs to be one of those "one and done" vilains

like the moment she dies, and she NEEDS to die, she stays deader than Oryx

[fringe sundial]

yeah

i want her to be compelling and have stakes because i've actually started to like maya as a villain

but if they bring her back like they do with every other popular villain

it will kill the stakes

[dim minnow]

I think part of what makes Maya work for me is the fact that even if she fails spetacularly, her actions leave huge ramifications in the world

for example, her actions in Echoes led to the first individualist Vex, the Nessian Schism, who would later attempt to break away from her leading to Epic Desert Perpetual and Tharsis Reformation

then there was the death of III

while more minor, her attempt to steal technology from the Tower kickstarted a gold rush of Golden Age tech from the Plaguelands

what would really sell this for me is if it gets revealed that her getting the Echo of Command was orchestrated by the Vex because they needed her to cause chaos in hopes of creating suitable conditions for them to win

[ember storm]

I mean the echo just landed in a pool of radiolaria innit

It is mighty convenient she reached it before anyone else

[slim girder]

Whether people like Maya or not as a character she is through her actions creating new and interesting things for the new saga. Vex have individuality, tharsis reformation is a thing, IIIs death set in motion a prophecy we have to prevent somehow.

Whatever she tries next is going to leave a mark. And we also still have the Lord of every nothing who was officially spoken about by drifter in renegades.

[ember storm]

I like her voice

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah I'm a bit of a sucker for "unintended consequences" types of characters

She's totally fucked up a lot and we stan girlfailures in this house

[celest trail]

What's wrong with earth? Ikora said irin or whoever can help them retake sol and start with chicago.

[dim minnow]

at the end of Edge of Fate, it gets revealed that Maya, the Conductor, killed III (the member of the Nine bound to Earth)

as a result, Earth has been changing chaotically

matter all over Earth transforms into something else, the laws of physics are going crazy

of course, the whole retaking Sol thing was part of the seasonal "story"

since the Witness was destrpyed and the echoes have been mostly dealt with, we've finally been put in a position where we can move towards reclaimign what humanity had lost

as for Chicago, it's foreshadowing where we will be going to next

it gets elaborated on a little bit more at the end of a Renegades post-campaign quest

basically, ||it seems like Lodi needs to take a remaining fragment (or something of the sort) of III to some "labyrinth" that's beneath Old Chicago so we can bind it to some unspecified entity||

[celest trail]

I'll read when I finish renegade then

The spoiler

[dapper kayak]

types it without the spoiler tag

[celest trail]

Kills you with my mind

[fringe sundial]

she was hiding in the vex network so it was pretty easy for her to reach it first

[dim minnow]

there were plenty of people trying to reach for it though

[fringe sundial]

none of the others had the headstart of being able to digitally teleport straight to it

[fringe sundial]

i would love for some higher traditional vex to appear as a result

[dim minnow]

Osiris did warn the Vanguard that now that the Witness is gone the Vex should be our top priority

[fringe sundial]

its implied constantly that the vex in sol are only a vanguard or even civillian frames

maybe one of those hezen lords the vog weapons talk about could take notice of sol

[dim minnow]

the Vex don't perceive combat the way we do

hence why they don't really have "combat units"

[slim girder]

Vex don't have "lords" in the way you think they do.

[fringe sundial]

we dont know if they do

[fringe sundial]

ok well i more just meant their more powerful frames

[dim minnow]

according to some D1 grimoire cards, each Vex unit has a primary objective which is something like building, directing energy, or even being a mobile foundry while defending their constructs is seen as a secondary objective

[fringe sundial]

calus mentioned in menagerie that the known ones were just farmers, builders and architects and that they have far more powerful combat oriented units

he mightve been bullshitting

but

there also couldve been an element of truth

[slim girder]

Their weapons are more equivalent to power tools

[fringe sundial]

yeah line rifles are basically just wifi routers iirc

[slim girder]

Vex build units to suit what they're doing. They don't have "leaders" in the way we do. Just frames that do certain jobs and if the job is big then they make a big frame for it. Atheon is one of those frames

Just frame built for a purpose by a need to fufill the goal of the vex

All the vex have is the pattern. No lords or big bosses

Just a drive

[dim minnow]

Hezen Lords is an ominous name though

like, they just put that as the name of an old armor set and never elaborated on it

maybe it just isn't meant to be anything

[slim girder]

I like to think Hezen lords is a name we gave them

Regular vex probably don't even bother with names

[dim minnow]

maybe it's a name given to Guardians who conquered the Vault of Glass

[slim girder]

Could be

[frigid sparrow]

The parts where calus talks about "combat vex" was in relation to his fanfictions

The primary theory was that wyverns were a glimpse at true combat vex, just like calus predicted

However, we know jack shit about wyverns

And there's no chance in HELL calus would know anything remotely interesting about the vex

[fringe sundial]

i mean he was a pretty well travelled guy

and pretty learned

[frigid sparrow]

He is, but not "vast knowledge on the vex home world" kinda guy

He wouldn't know anything the psions wouldn't

[fringe sundial]

the cabal empire had planet sized repositories of knowledge for him to peruse at his will

[frigid sparrow]

And back to the combat vex, even the imp swarms, which were introduced and confirmed as part of the construction force of vex, with them being equipped with matter decomposers

Initially they could be thought of as a more "tactical" enemy due to how they force a choice in destroying the swarm or the leader first, but they're just some basic bitch vex

With the closest thing to outright combat vex being the aggressor wyverns, who're immune to CC... But that can also be translated into working against harsh environments

[fringe sundial]

im pretty sure the closest thing we've seen to combat vex was belmon

[frigid sparrow]

Belmon is a bitch ass hydra

[fringe sundial]

actually yeah youre right

definitely a far more advanced vex

but

still not combative

glassway would be really funny if it happened to humans

imagine just working at a factory

and a portal opens and drags you, your coworkers, your supervisor and the manager into another solar system

[frigid sparrow]

So about that

[fringe sundial]

no i mean like

[frigid sparrow]

[fringe sundial]

idk how to explain it

[frigid sparrow]

Mom's potato pierogi's...

[slim girder]

We're still yet to truly see what kind of axis minds lie at the heart of the vex. Again not leaders but the minds that dictate where whole collectives focus their attention

Volantis 2047 is the closest we've seen to what a Vex "world" is

[fluid peak]

'seen'

we have vague descriptions of it from the lore

[slim girder]

Mercury and the vault of glass would probably be the biggest flex of power we've seen from the vex then

[fluid peak]

we should just send saint through the glassway portal and the vex would destroy it for us

[frigid sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/yakuza-gif-18148683

[slim girder]

As much as he'd love it I don't think even he would survive an endeavour of that nature. He fought millions of vex through his travels.
Volantis vex population is probably in the quintillions and if it's a forge world then new vex are pumped out every second

[frigid sparrow]

Vex seeing Saint again

[fluid peak]

then it is a fair fight.

[frigid sparrow]

What if we just send brother Vance into the glassway

[slim girder]

Does he know?

[frigid sparrow]

Surely he's still alive

He's gonna come out of a random ass portal with a viltrumite physique

[slim girder]

Iirc he isn't anymore.

[frigid sparrow]

Surviving on nothing but simulated meatloaf

[fluid peak]

vance hitting the 'stand ready for my arrival, worms'

[frigid sparrow]

There's no confirmation one way or the other

Because he deadass has got a total of like 2 mentions

[slim girder]

I know. It's just brother vances story is very depressing.

[frigid sparrow]

It threw Vance on his back, but he held on. He pushed his hands up the thing's face, under its blindfold, and dug in with his thumbs.

It howled. How unfortunate, Vance thought to himself behind his wide smile, that you still have eyes.

It seems that he was able to get the upper hand on his simulated self

The simulation was wrong- it had eyes, he didn't. He didn't have that weakness.

And he was able to revel in gauging out his own eyes

Mocking it and smiling.. sounds like he was able to maintain the upper hand

[lone jacinth]

Somewhat of a necro reply, but I have probably reiterated myself 100 times between forum posts and general discussions that this is simply not the case. They will use this excuse constantly and have been for over a decade. The reality behind the situation of the tragedy that hit this franchise has been so pervasive and yet still mostly is background information that many aren't aware of, or is forgotten. Since before Destiny 1 launched top brass has consistently been responsible for mismanagement of the studio and the game, and the only people that kept them somewhat in check was Activision, despite all of their faults. After the split from them it became abundantly clear that internally it was troubled and unsurprisingly the talent at the studio is intentionally limited.

[trim grotto]

While I'm not one to explain it properly, for actual detail I'd have to defer to my friend Sarsion. I simply latch onto small parts of what he explains and then misrepresent it, haha

To my knowledge, there are technical reasons why destiny is limited in scope. That being said, I do agree that top management has been a consistent issue for Destiny, even against recommendations from the actual devs.

[rigid flower]

Finally learning more about The Dread. It's crazy that there were some who began to question The Final Shape almost immediately.

[frigid sparrow]

"are we really sure about th-" gets turned into a swarm of bats

[dim minnow]

the Witness likely didn't plan to have them around for too long given it was nearing the Final Shape at that point

or it was another case of it being pretty delusional and thinking the newly-made Dread would be eternally loyal

[slim girder]

Even its disciples all had different interpretations of what the final shape actually was. The witness didn't care though so long as they just did their jobs

[dim minnow]

the Witness was pretty good at manipulating the mentally deranged into doing its bidding

[slim girder]

Exactly. Rhulk was a lost puppy to the witness pretty much. Calus was obedient but a difficult one

[dim minnow]

while Rhulk needed a decent bit of gaslighting, it did seem like he had some underlying issues beforehand

like him skinning the family cat for no reason when he was a kid

[slim girder]

He was ripe for picking by the witness

[frigid sparrow]

I'm sure the guy who blew up his own suns was sound of mind all his life

[dim minnow]

it is interesting that Rhulk did feel immense guilt over it initially

then the Witness forced him to relive it over and over until he was gaslighted into thinking it was a good thing

[slim girder]

I mean it does work for some people.

[junior kernel]

Hi everyone
Ive been off D2 for a while
Right now, when I started the renegade missions, it told me to go to Zavala and he talked about "I cant authorise this ... I cant take my eye off the city preservation..."
Also the text in the vendor menu after he spoke to me said something about me being held accountable and Zavala being reluctant to limit my off-world excursions

Can someone fill me in on the background/context? I mightve played a bit then left so forgot whatever context this is happening within

[slim girder]

He is reluctant because we are currently making deals with criminal syndicates.
Also for context, before renegades in edge of fate we were told of a prophecy that ends in our extinction. Zavala has kept this information classified as to not cause the city to panic because we only just got off of destroying the witness and people are able to breath again

[junior kernel]

in the main EoF expansion or the previous "season"?

[slim girder]

In EoFs campaign

[junior kernel]

cool Im playing that now

will finish it then go into renegades

[slim girder]

The ending will explain the prophecy and the context for this whole new saga
"The fate saga"

[junior kernel]

so iirc, people are able to use dark powers without any sort of proxy
meanwhile in general Lightbearers are created by the traveller (e.g. using ghosts)
have there been people or entities to use light without the traveller?

[jagged badge]

How exactly do you mean “without the Traveler”?

[blazing wasp]

i imagine using the light without the travelers "blessing", like a ghost

[slow berry]

seasons no longer exist

[junior kernel]

the same way people use the darkness without the veil's "permission" (last thing I was aware of was that the the veil was the traveller's darkness counterpart)
like just "learn" how to use the light same way we learned to use the darkness

[slow berry]

these are fundamental forces of the universe

[jagged badge]

Ghaul used the Light without needing a Ghost, by forcibly acquiring it somehow

[junior kernel]

you know what I mean
episodes, arcs, whatever they are called now

[jagged badge]

But the Traveler smote his ass for it

[slow berry]

its just expansions

[junior kernel]

yes he used a machine to siphon it from the traveller
that's still kinda through the traveller
what I am looking for are people using arc, solar, void not through the traveller

[jagged badge]

Then no

Light comes from the Traveler

[junior kernel]

then why doesnt darkness come from the veil?
was it retconned that it is the traveller's counterpart?
or is kinda purposely not intervening (since iirc the whole dark vs light thing was evolution vs cultivation)

[jagged badge]

Light is given, Dark is taken, I believe is the philosophy

[slow berry]

Darkness doesn't come from the veil, it connects all of consciousness

[junior kernel]

like the traveller picks specific groups to empower so that they work together and lead the world
while the veil allows anyone to get darkness and lets the entire world sort itself out

[slow berry]

The veil simply amplifies its influence

Which is why you can visibly see the threads in Neomuna

You have darkness inside you just by like

being conscious

[slow berry]

not how it works no

as far as we know the veil isn't even conscious

and we believe it to have been at some point part of the traveler or closely related, but not its actual counterpart

[junior kernel]

I mean, the light refers to matter/physical world
so the sun has "Light" as well
why is there an entity that acts as a source of Light abilities but not Dark?

[slow berry]

the traveler isn't really supposed to be a source of light abilities either

it only did that because it was backed into a corner and decided to fight the Witness instead of running away again

it didn't give golden-age humans light abilities and it didn't give any of the previously heightened civilizations those abilities either

[slow berry]

Light does refer to physical phenomena but it doesn't mean everything is made out of capital L Light or has Light in it

During the Golden Age, people learned how to use Arc, Solar and Void energy, which are Light, but were not empowered to use Light the same way Guardians do, and these are simply universal forces that don't necessarily carry the same paracausality that Lightbearers do

[slow berry]

<@&1019968308973416448> new scam

[slim girder]

The veil doesn't behave like the traveler does. The veil is an object with as far as we know no sentience or thoughts like the traveler does.
As for using darkness the veil isn't granting permission it's just that being in proximity to the veil allows you to see more disruptions in the world. For example on neomuna you can find little pockets of strand that you can interact with. This is due to the energy produced by the veil. There's also a lore tab about a hunter trying to grapple after learning strand in nessus after visiting Neptune and the connection being nowhere near as strong leading them to almost plummet off a cliff.

Darkness is a force that connects the universe and every being within it.
The veil just allows you to see glimpses of that web underneath if that makes due to its energy field if that makes sense

[junior kernel]

so I just finished the edge of fate campaign and have some questions (both as a returning player and based on what I just played)

since when did Ikora become commander of the vanguard?
did Reclamation and Ash&Iron updates expand on the lore?
what is the "stat check" for the ||echo of command||? is it like taking where your will needs to be greater than your target's? or is it more like a broken weapon that works on any creatures with ||sentience/intelligence to understand commands||?
what was the order of events surrounding the ||death of III||? "when" did it ||die||? and how can we ||bind the "nine" when now they are the "eight"||?

[queen swallow]

I can't speak for the rest of your questions because I'm not that into the lore but Ikora would've become commander after Zavala lost Targe, his Ghost, during the Final Shape campaign. No longer being a Guardian, he would've probably had to step down from the Vanguard, or at least commander of the Vanguard. Since Ikora has been around longer than Crow, command defaults to her.

[slim girder]

Zavala is still the commander. But ikora is more the boots on the ground person now because now that zavala is lightless he is starting to age

[slim girder]

When you play renegades more of your questions will be answered. We're 2 expansions into this new saga so not everything is known yet

As cool as it would be to be able to tell you everything we just don't have the concrete answer yet

[junior kernel]

Yeah I'm looking forwards to it

I was pretty confused about Ikora because the first renegades mission told me to speak to Zavala so it kinda confirmed he is the commander
But then III called Ikora commander

[slim girder]

That is mainly because of the nines involvement with who ikora is

It was them who killed her before she was risen as a guardian

Dr Nella Davis

[queen swallow]

I can try and answer the order of events questions: ||It is shown to us in the final mission of Maya, The Conductor, doing... something. When I watched it, it wasn't clear to me at all what she was doing (I thought that she was simultaneously killing III as we revived them) but it turns out I was only partly wrong. At some point in the past, Maya used the Echo of Command to bring III into physical existence, which can't be possible, so III died.

For "bind the Nine", well, we'll have to revive III and then likely shove it back into un-physical existence before III dies again. How that will happen, I don't know.||

[dim minnow]

to be specific, ||Maya forced III into the 3rd dimension which killed it because the Nine are 4th dimensional entities and can't exist in lower dimensions. It's like how we can't enter a painting.||

[trim grotto]

||chimken numgets||

[slow berry]

Maya kills ||III|| well before we ever arrive on Kepler

We briefly use the haul to ||revive III|| just long enough for him to deliver his message but the haul restores itself and everything goes back to normal shortly after

[slim girder]

A month according to bungies narrative lead

[slow berry]

i thiught it was three months for some reason but there ya go

[junior kernel]

so from my readings on the wiki, it seems the raid and Ash&Iron both expanded a bit on EoF
from what I found, the raid showed that the ||Vex are now hunting/searching for the rest of the Nine||
and Ash&Iron involved several confrontations against ||Maya||
anything else pre-renegades?

[dim minnow]

not really

there was a bit of stuff in the background about us trying to reclaim lost territory and Golden Age tech

[queen swallow]

If you're using destinypedia, take it with a grain of salt. It's worse for accuracy than Ishtar Collective but much more readable than it.

[slim girder]

The goal of the vex in the desert perpetual raid was to digitise the unknown space within.
This place is made up of dark matter and with dark matter the vex would be able to modify trillions of timelines just by modifying one timeline if that makes sense

Lots of metaphysics behind it but that's the most basic way I can explain what's happening in the raid why we're fighting the vex there

[haughty stump]

If parts of the witness don’t agree with it

Why in the fuck did they sign up to become one 😭✌️

Like bro did the civilization force everyone to do it

[trim grotto]

Yes, actually.

[haughty stump]

But then it makes no sense? If the purpose was to architect into one being that’s sole purpose was to do the final shape, why force people inside it that don’t want to?

[slim girder]

The witness civilization was made up of many groups. Each had their own version of the final shape and ways to do it. The majority won out and everyone was folded into the ritual to create the witness

[haughty stump]

Wait what? So you’re telling me no one thought “yea we don’t need a higher purpose, life is find”

Fine*

[trim grotto]

Anyone that did not submit could become a statue, a tool of the Witness. But most either agreed or gave in.

[haughty stump]

And can we see which multiple final shapes people want?

[haughty stump]

So either be a part or be used

I can’t imagine how millions of minds interconnected would be

[slim girder]

The traveler leaving them shook everyone and that was the point they changed to wanting to seek purpose through the final shape

They were probably happy for a time when the traveler was on their planet

[haughty stump]

But the cinematic told me they wanted the purpose after their golden age and found a veil. I’m just surprised no one fought back and said nah “shits good man”

Also ik I didn’t pay attention to the seasons before light fall

But they don’t explain the Veil

At all then

Was I expected to know it

Or do they just suck?

[slim girder]

Idk if you have but if you go to neomuna at the very top iirc left of the map you should see an activity called veil containment

[haughty stump]

Uh huh

[slim girder]

It'll give you lots of audio logs about chioma and mayas study of the veil

[haughty stump]

Damn. I see but ngl they should have explained it in the campaign

[trim grotto]

If you ever hear complaints about Lightfall's story, that is one of the major reasons why.

Veil Containment came months later

[haughty stump]

Yea exactly Man! I thought it was my fault cause I wasn’t in the prior seasons as much but no, it’s not knowing the Radial Mast, Veil, and where strand comes from (or at least it was crummmy cexplained)
Osiris was mean btw

[slim elk]

You talking Savathun Osiris or real Osiris?

He was a meat puppet for Savathun for a while there

[ember storm]

her name is Osusris

anyway yeah Osiris being irritable in LF is strangely criticized even though it makes perfect sense for his character

the character writing of LF works a lot better when you remember literally everyone there is just ignoring their own problems trying to deal with the Witness

[slim elk]

Runs into the tonal whiplash of the campaign

Since it trys for "80s action movie" when it's an apocalypse hitting

[trim grotto]

Osiris was going through some personal things at the time. Between the Spire of the Watcher and Lightfall he was going through a phase of growth, working through the final dregs of his obsessions.

He's more relaxed now.

[haughty stump]

Post witch queen

[haughty stump]

Hmmm yea that’s fair. We lowkey should have had a high speed chase and like 2 missions in space before we arrived at Neptune, should have crashed our ship into Calus’s and then we both crash into Neptune, like for a race to the veil im not gonna lie it felt, slow?

[slim elk]

TBF
Calus knew where it was. Osiris didn't exactly

They knew of Neomuna but not the exact coordinates

Even the Witness didn't until it captured the Traveler and relayed it to Calus

[haughty stump]

Somehow that fits my idea better, we don’t know where it is so we follow calus, and at the same time try to sabotage him, up until we crash, and then idk maybe because the witness hijack our ghost, we can have the ghost hack communication between calus and witness, then it’s an actual race you get wha I mean? Idk I played the first half of lightfall a year ago, and I just finished it up, btw final shape is amazing! It’s also fucking difficult I hate tormentors

[slim elk]

Lightfall is just filled with bad writing

Current state of things makes far more sense if Maya won over Esi

TLDR:
Esi viewed the Veil as an artifact of Doom and wanted it contained and isolated at all costs

Maya wanted to study and exploit it

Given Neomuna has everything hooked into the Veil in the modern day..

[haughty stump]

“Triumphant against entropy” MF YOU WANT ENTROPHY

[slim girder]

Different kind of entropy

[queen swallow]

I'm pretty sure "entrophy" isn't really a word

The only result for "entrophy" instead of "entropy" is a piece from a guy named Lewis R. Binford who often made up words

Then again, all words are made up, but you're thinking of the wrong one

[fringe sundial]

entropy is disorder

the witness wants ultimate order

i think lightfall did the witness fairly well

at least compared to every other character

at least the scene with calus was excellent

[slow berry]

Not quite how that works, no.

It's not disorder in the "my room is so messy" type of thing, it specifically refers to energy in a system and its ability to flow and do work

When you have the highest entropy possible in a system and achieve thermodynamic equilibrium, all the energy inside of it is dispersed and unable to do anything

Famously, you cannot reduce the entropy of a system without increasing the entropy of another system (i.e. putting energy from another system inside it) which on a universal level means the universe will at some point will reach thermodynamic equilibrium and be perfectly still forever, im theory.

The Witness wants to use the Traveler and the Veil to achieve this perfect state of stillness in its own controlled and perfect way

[blazing wasp]

no entropy is basically if you're playing red light green light with the universe, and you shout "red light!"

[slow berry]

Hence why it calls The Final Shape "one final act of entropy"

[blazing wasp]

its often associated with disorder or chaos when not used in a scientific way

which might be why someone would be confusing it as just chaos rather than thermodynamics and chemistry sillies

[slow berry]

i didnt want to get into the weeds of how particles work (especially bc its not my field), just wanted to get the connection between entropy and why the witness wanting the final shape and calling it entropy isnt a mischaracterization

[blazing wasp]

ye

for the record this is me supporting you

[slow berry]

yeah ik, just mentioning why i skipped the particle stuff

which i do agree isnt actually how itd play out in the final shape but like y'know

you're dead either way so you have bigger fish to fry than to argue whether or not the actual entropy in the universe would increase or decrease (though i'm sure theres a vanguard thread about it, locked after 13,000 messages and seven weeks of lobbed insults)

[blazing wasp]

Destiny 2 usually acknowledges and respect physics, but not in the "this could happen in real life" sense, but in the... how to put it, its easier to immerse yourself in it

like a power system built on something already real and quantifiable

[slow berry]

the way i would describe it is it uses actual scientific terms but very much so more as a narrative and evocative sense than any hard science

like stuff like how solar energy is described tends to use scientific terms but it mostly uses them to evoke how fucking cool it is to pull a flaming sword and swing at people

[queen swallow]

I'm still interested in why they thought it's "entrophy"

[blazing wasp]

the fuck is entrophy

[slow berry]

well if you think about it

a trophy you get after a great achievement and mostly just sits there doing nothing

[queen swallow]

#📚lore-discussion message

[slow berry]

and isnt that just the final shape

therefore, entrophy

[blazing wasp]

i only found four things when googling

1: AI coverage saying its a misspelling (i dont trust AI so i moved on from that one)

2: A reddit post saying its "unavailable energy" (its reddit.)

3 and 4: Two youtube videos using it as gods weirdest intro for a crypto scam.

[queen swallow]

Intriguing

I knew of Binford already from academia which is probably why that appeared

[ember storm]

do you think Clovis would try making Garfield

like propaganda media for eventide

[haughty stump]

I thought it was like stasis, absolute stillness across everything

I’m curious if it’s just staying in place like a statue

Then why did the witness offer crow his empire, and sisters love?

Is this like in Naruto with the whole tsukiyami thing?

[haughty stump]

Oh yea witness was peak, gameplay was mid.

[fringe sundial]

lightfall had good gameplay

[fringe sundial]

it wouldve frozen him in what it thought was his perfect eternity

it offered zavala eternity with his family

and ikora a never ending moment of victory

[haughty stump]

Not to me, I wish it felt faster and scarier, like in destiny 1 I like the fast paced stuff in missions. Running away from Oryx, etc. in lightfall I wanted to see an actual chase and the mission fails when you don’t beat the timer. Idk just me ig. I feel destiny campaigns be getting repitive I like a different feel to each campaign

[fringe sundial]

that was a fault of the campaigns pacing and story

the missions were made to reflect that

they had good gameplay and mechanics just a bad story

[haughty stump]

So he would just be staring at an empire, and his sister? Idk I get slightly confused, idk why the witness thought we would want that, like bro imagine having the love of my life right in front of me and I can’t do nothing but stand in place, or maybe I’m understanding this wrong, which is usually the case

[fringe sundial]

i think its more like

he would be frozen in that feeling of happiness forever

[haughty stump]

Idk story felt fine, a chase to the veil, the gameplay didn’t reflect the chase well, although they should have explained the veil while we were chasing after Calus. And I still feel like crashing our ship into Calus and fighting through it would be an amazing call

[fringe sundial]

story was so ass the entire year after it was spent on narrative damage control leading into tfs

[haughty stump]

🤔 I’m having such a hard time feeling and understating that, so it’s like an endless living of the exact feeling and stuff? Well not living, but nothing is changing all Zavala is doing is enjoying what he wanted with his family, not wanting anything more or less, just the same thing all the time.

[haughty stump]

What was the story bad at except for not explaining the veil and other shit?

Like the cloud arc ?

[fringe sundial]

tone was inconsistent

wasted calus

[haughty stump]

I’ll give you that

[fringe sundial]

didnt feel satisfying afterwards

rohan and nimbus sucked

and it didnt answer any questions

[haughty stump]

Yea

Def

[fringe sundial]

also pacing was garbage

[haughty stump]

It didn’t that’s for sure.honestly our first mission should have been confronting the witness, and then they throw us away

[haughty stump]

Yea but we talking about story? And you said that’s seperate from story

[fringe sundial]

the pacing is part of the story

im saying that the content of the missions had to reflect the story

[fringe sundial]

that would be a plot hole

because

why wouldnt the witness just oneshot us

[jagged badge]

I disagree heavily with this assessment

What damage control when it was written before Lightfall came out?

[fringe sundial]

season of the deep was literally all about explaining the stuff lightfall failed to explain

and they had to make those veil containment activities as well

[jagged badge]

I assure you it was not written and voice acted after Lightfall’s launch

Which was always the plan, not a response to Lightfall’s reception

[fringe sundial]

it was still all stuff that shouldve been in lightfall

[jagged badge]

That’s a different argument

[jagged badge]

Remember that Lance Reddick passed away during Season of Defiance, but Zavala still had dialogue in Season of the Deep

[fringe sundial]

yes i kn9w

[jagged badge]

You really misunderstand the content pipeline if you believe Deep/Veil Containment were done post-Lightfall

What actually happened is that Bungie tried something different with a big mystery and ongoing narrative and unravelling of that mystery in Lightfall’s year that did not work for the playerbase

You can criticise that, but I’m just correcting the misinformation around your initial take

[haughty stump]

I mean same goes for the last campaign mission in final shape. The witness didn’t do that crazy stuff then

[slow berry]

i think it was like, the highest point of trying to use seasons as part of the story

by basically making half of lightfall's mystery be part of the seasons

[dapper kayak]

@jagged badge #❓destiny-questions bot

[slow berry]

im sure they had the episodes already worked out but i wouldnt be surprised if the name changes, difference in scope and subsequent complete drop of seasons came as a result of lightfall tho

[slow berry]

the way i think of it is like

if you were trying to cut down a tree you wouldn't think to take the time to kill an ant trying to stop you

It only lashes out in Iconoclasm because we refused its offer and when we learn how to damage it it drops everything to focus on finalizing the shape

[jagged badge]

I lowkey liked the idea. A mystery unravelled over time was compelling to me

Though I understand why others didn’t and why they found the lack of information in the campaign jarring

[slow berry]

During the raid its always mere minutes away from the Final Shape and doesn't even try to stop us until Verity bc we kept mucking it up and it decides to outright finalize us

Then during final encounter its like

deadass there tryna do its thing and you literally have to pry its hands off of it

[slow berry]

I think most destiny players just don't play anything other than the expansions

which bungie didnt help by making seasons vary in relevance and ultimately all of them transient

I think the idea could've worked if seasons in general had been more carefully crafted

I do think the two expansions a year is an attempt to be able to have longer running storylines that don't depend on a single big expansion every year

[ember storm]

It’s a nice idea in concept but honestly it probably would’ve fit better in the year of WQ which marketed itself on the mystery aspect

The issue is that if you try viewing LF as their try at an “infinity war,” it doesn’t help when the villain wasn’t properly explained

Imagine if we got no backstory on Thanos until like the post credit scene from antman 2

[jagged badge]

Fair points

I agree the execution was definitely not perfect

[ember storm]

Also I’m saying this as someone who hasn’t played since Heresy so I have no idea what things are like rn

[lone jacinth]

Somehow, I think EOF is the worst to date, so take with that what you will

[queen swallow]

Worse in what way, the writing? I thought it was fine

[ember storm]

Worse than Warmind is pretty tough

[lone jacinth]

No, the writing and story was pretty good, but the gameplay... I really dont like playing as a ball for half the campaign, and it also introduced portal which was questionable

[queen swallow]

Edge of Fate did not introduce the portal

How many times will I have to explain this

The portal is free. Edge of Fate is not. You did not have to pay for the portal, it was going to happen anyway, whether you bought Edge of Fate or not.

As much as I loathe the portal, it was never tied to the expansion

[lone jacinth]

You can attempt to dissociate it and i know what you're trying to say but the reality is that it released alongside it

[queen swallow]

The portal was introduced as part of Update 9 alongside Armor 3.0. That Bungie did not give this its own name to distinguish it from Edge of Fate's simultaneous release I consider a major failure.

[slow berry]

kang

[jagged badge]

Major Failure 🫡

[queen swallow]

[lone jacinth]

Right, and armor 3.0 was also technically "free" right, but it was released with it and that is unfortunate but true

[jagged badge]

Wait what’s wrong with armour 3.0?

[slow berry]

...how is armor 3.0 not free

[queen swallow]

If portal was tied to Edge of Fate I would never have bought it

[lone jacinth]

I'm saying in relation to what he used the portal example for

[queen swallow]

This exact discussion is why I consider this to be a failure on Bungie's behalf, btw

People just can't comprehend it for some reason

[lone jacinth]

Yeah. The director has a part of destiny's identity for over a decade. Some parts of portal i do like, quickplay fireteam is excellent and fun imo, but it should have never taken centre stage

[lone jacinth]

That's no secret and unfortunately it wouldnt be the worst transgression, I still think the DCV to date is the worst thing to happen to the game

We pushed for years for sunsetting to be reverted and finally were granted that, but the DCV may very well be a lost cause

I actually have to put this on perspective for some since it isnt immediately clear - there a decent bit of ritual activities/strikes and maps locked away in the DCV. One of the core issues has been ritual playlist content for years and no there is no better example in my mind that strike count. For example, after 3 years of destiny 1 there are 17 playable strikes to this day. In comparison, destiny 2 has 19 after over 8 years, and i'm including the d1 conversions. I get that destiny 2 is a bit of a different ballgame but it does beg the question as to why this content which would certainly aid the situation is just not added back. I don't think people care about patrol zones but absolutely the strikes, crucible maps, gambit maps, raids should return

Scourge being removed pissed my fireteam off the most by far. I was under drinking age back then but I'm sure it'd make a hell of a night now.

[jagged badge]

It’s not so simple to just add it back

[blazing wasp]

remember, anything bad bungie does, they dont do "because fuck you lmao"

[slow berry]

Its effectively a different engine

[blazing wasp]

no proper company does that

[slow berry]

Bungie has said none of that content even exists in a form that can be played at all

[blazing wasp]

and if unvaulting DCV was a realistic task, bungie would've done so

its such a massive massive boon to their PR, and the shit they can put behind paywalls that you know damn well people would buy would absolutely help with their sales

[lone jacinth]

I mean, it kind of is. They have done this for literally 3/4 of destiny 1's raids and even their environments

[blazing wasp]

...no? not how it works?

they didnt just... port it over

and those instances werent "easy tasks" either

[lone jacinth]

No shit? But the map itself is

[blazing wasp]

yes its obvious thats not how it works, but if its obvious why mention it as if thats how it works

[lone jacinth]

In the strike case the only thing major that changed was the 2020 lighting changes

If we're talking engine

[blazing wasp]

and i dont see the corrolation with the "maps" here, thats far from the biggest task at hand for bungie

[slow berry]

Its not

[blazing wasp]

...oh god

that is a

[slow berry]

Like once again none of this content can be loaded up

[blazing wasp]

devestating

message to see

[slow berry]

They don't have a way, internally, to load that content

Let alone into the actual current game

[blazing wasp]

thats got to be the most verbal sucker punch ive seen in this channel in maybe ever

[lone jacinth]

It's actually funny because they ran into that legal trouble with the red war of which i beleive the lawsuit is still ongoing

[slow berry]

Also you apparently aren't aware of the numerous enemy AI and spawning mechanics that have changed over the years

[blazing wasp]

please please elaborate

[jagged badge]

It’s not

That’s long been settled and the idiot who tried it embarrassed with nothing to show for it

[lone jacinth]

So just to clarify i 100% understand that there is work involved but that's kind of the point when content each expansion has progressively gotten lesx

[slow berry]

well, it hasn't?

[lone jacinth]

But how was it settled? If they had no way to load the red war?

[jagged badge]

Because the guy’s claims were bullshit

[slow berry]

It was thrown out because the claims were bogus

Starting from the fact that red war released before he claimed to have started writing

which was like, a huge blunder in his attempt to get money from it

[lone jacinth]

I know why it was thrown out, im just playing devil's advocate but originally that was bungie's excuse for the red war

[slow berry]

like hilariously dumb

[blazing wasp]

it requires an uncomfortable degree of excess in ignorance to believe the case was anything but frivolous

*for the record i am not implying anyone present is this

[slow berry]

the red war thing was just that bungie presented fan-uploaded youtube videos and it wasnt allowed bc it wasn't their own official content

but bungie didn't have that archived internally in a way that could be presented in court

people miscontextualized it

[lone jacinth]

Look, all i'm saying is that the content vault is stupid. The excuses of storage was especially funny but either way I think that not only having the content unplayable is a net negative but also it hasnt been exactly rectified as of late

[slow berry]

i still dont want all the shit back im so deadass

i dont want to have to put up another 250gb of space for people to nostalgiapost about the red war and still not play the game

when that work could've been used to like

actually update the game

its been ten years yknow

[blazing wasp]

storage was but one of the issues

shit it wasnt even the primary one

[lone jacinth]

I mean the red war is mostly for player on boarding at this point since new light is notoriously dogshit, but I mean I do kind of want my old raids back frankly and especially scourge

[blazing wasp]

if bungie had some secret alien tech that let them compress the game down to 1gb it still wouldnt matter

I mean red war is also notorious for being dogshit, and even worse of a tutorial than new light. But it was still content we lost

[lone jacinth]

It's complete bullshit, you know that. Destiny 2 rn isnt even that big and most games are well over it

[lone jacinth]

100% it was mid overall but that doesnt justfiy its removal

[blazing wasp]

thats... why they stated it wasnt the primary issue

they didnt exactly keep that hidden

why would they?

[lone jacinth]

It's not an issue at all, they're full of it

[blazing wasp]

ok, sure

reduntant

[jagged badge]

The thing is, seeing it as “removal” isn’t exactly accurate

[blazing wasp]

did you not read why the DCV happened?

[jagged badge]

Even if this feels like semantics

They had to recode the game essentially, a combination of updating the engine and I believe legal issues with the split from Activision

[blazing wasp]

aye, das the primary issue

[lone jacinth]

Frankly, I'm convinced it happened because higher ups wanted to resell content to me at a later date.

[slow berry]

oh ok

[jagged badge]

So it was a choice of what content to leave behind and not put the work and money into updating for the new engine

[jagged badge]

It helps no one to ignore the facts people are educating you with in favour of spinfoil theories

[lone jacinth]

Uh, are you certain on the activision front? I'm pretty sure they had full ownership of the IP but I could bd wrong

[blazing wasp]

oh.

its this kinda thing happening here.

[ember storm]

Hey lore chat here with a lore question

[lone jacinth]

I'm aware its a theory but it is funny even if its hyperbole

[ember storm]

[blazing wasp]

i was a little suspicious with the triple down that didnt even need a double down

[ember storm]

Is Shaw Han dead yet

[blazing wasp]

i'd like to apologise for my messaged in which case, i was not aware what you were attempting

im not really good with drama-

[ember storm]

Oh

[slow berry]

i will concede over the years some of the stuff should have been prioritized to return, namely the raids but like

[jagged badge]

Not yet slacker

Get to it

[ember storm]

HOORA YES MAAM

[lone jacinth]

I mean after the split. They retained all rights and publishing rights

[blazing wasp]

no he keeps surviving my attempts

[blazing wasp]

refer to earlier message

i am a terrible drama partner and will not offer desireable responses

[lone jacinth]

?

Just to be clear I've had this level of animosity built up over a long time. I get it, adding stuff isnt easy, there are complications, et cetera, but i also do think at some point it becomes a little asinine. This franchise was steeped in controversy since before day 1 of cut content and major changes to the background of the game, so i'm sorry but it's very hard for me to take bungie for their word.

Had each expansion carried similar positive reception mostly referring to raw content amounts perhaps the whole idea of the DCV returning would be here nor there, but that just isn't really the case especially as of late

Like we haven't had a 4 strike DLC since forsaken. I mean okay, the better DLCs since then have had 2 mostly, but come on, the final shape with 1? Eof with zero? I may be talking about a specific instance but it did happen to crucible maps as well

[slow berry]

Just as a note this is exactly what they were talking about in the under-overdelivery talk

Forsaken was made in conjuction with two other separate full development teams

They overdelivered and now you're expecting the same amount of content every time which is simply not sustainable, and becomes less sustainable over time

[lone jacinth]

I mentiond that i think witch queen was recieived pretty well, so what of the two strike DLCs? Were they suddenly overdelivery too? I mean, apparently they were if the standard is less than 1 at this point

Witch queen was the last 2 strike dlc we got. Its since then been 1 or none

[frigid sparrow]

Note that the strikes are also a part of the main story

Feasibly, they could've labeled them as story missions and that'd be it

They just so happened to be strikes

[lone jacinth]

Right but even excluding them it's still the same as rise of iron for example, that had like 5 story missions.

[frigid sparrow]

the thing with strikes is that they're most typically curated play spaces
Shadowkeep: The Scarlet Keep
Beyond Light: The Glassway
Witch Queen: Temple of the Navigator and The Dark City
Lightfall: Vexnet
Final Shape: This one's iffy since the entire pale heart playspace is curated for the campaign experience

these areas, aside from bits and pieces typically found in the intro sections, are made for the strike experience and as a part of the campaigns (aside from BL and SK which had far shorter campaign experiences (although glassway was part of BL lol). this makes them harder to make than the typical campaign mission, since they're using new world assets, and utilizing those strikes as part of the narrative to help make up for that extra power. However, this can also lead to some unfortunate things like the lack of content regarding these playspaces. The Scarlet Keep and the Dark City are both some really neat locations that don't see much use anywhere due to the curated nature they're build upon.

also, a lot of RoI's strikes were remixes of existing ones

but like, if we wanted a new original strike on venus, they'd had to manually create more world since the lawless frontier maps aren't build with that in mind and they can't just be reused

[lone jacinth]

I was going to bring this up because it is generally seen that they are different than story missions, but clearly you're aware of that. It's why I'm fine with some of the battlegrounds that have new areas like that pyramid one with the balefires, but I dislike that cabal one that you end near the start of proving grounds (cant rememebr the name)

[frigid sparrow]

Behemoth

[lone jacinth]

Yeah that one.

I also noticed that with renegades and in truth i'm somewhat surprised they didn't build them with like a few curated new areas which would be like "locked" off in normal activities since that would make it both unique especially in venus's case

and new

[frigid sparrow]

They had to make 5.5-ish maps (freehold outskirts uses a lot from d1 mars) that are arguably bigger than something like mercury

[slow berry]

The same thing happened in CoO and people panned it

[frigid sparrow]

That's why the campaign missions primarily take place on the maps, it's that return on investment

[lone jacinth]

Yea, though to be fair mercury is somewhat of a meme but I get it

[slow berry]

Also strikes kinda went the way of seasons really

The job of strikes got sidelined into seasonal content

Battlegrounds and heists and whatever they called them

[frigid sparrow]

heists were still battlegrounds

just the subtype

[lone jacinth]

This is true but personally I probably liked the strikes from CoO more than the expansion tbh

[slow berry]

thats funny bc they were loke

the expansion

literally 1:1 two missions from the expansion

Ofc CoO had other issues that exacerbated how people felt about the style of content recycling but its still p funny how different the reaction was to the same thing

[lone jacinth]

I know that, I just mean that as a whole it was no secret CoO was... not great to say the least, but I'm not talking so much of the expansion as much as I am a strike and what that entails

To be fair there were absolutely people responding the same way to witch queen I do remember that

Witch queen was just overall fleshed out quite well in comparison so I don't find it surprising the reaction was not as severe

Side note I will say that my friends and I loved eater of worlds. We didn't like leviathan that much ever even back then, but absolutely would be down for eater

If i had to pick one thing from the DCV to return it would be scourge. We are still cheesed about that one to this day

At least I got the sparrow and anarchy I guess

[haughty stump]

It seems im not the only person that wants a dark ages gameplay

[haughty stump]

But ig people are right it should be a spinoff, like a prequel game, standalone game

No PvP stuff

[queen swallow]

We don't really have many instances of us going back in time, if at all. We could fake being in the Dark Ages with something like the Infinite Forest but: 1. Why and 2. No.

[haughty stump]

We aren’t going back in time, it just be a spinoff game.

1. Well it wouldn’t be destinyesque, it wouldn’t really have Pvp and be a looter shooter, it would be dark/ more graphic, and would be a very desperate measure, not meant to be a huge game, rather a nice enjoyable story something like cyberpunk prob, but.. smaller
2. Smh fun killer

[queen swallow]

Sure 🤷 but I'm just as likely, personally speaking, to buy that as I am Marathon: not at all

[frigid sparrow]

The issue with this is it's literally just fallen and hive present

The cabal and vex didn't arrive until afterwards/were in isolated areas

And the taken weren't brought into our system yet and the scorn/dread straight up don't exist

And any human combatants are gonna have to be guardians... Who only have a primary understanding of the core 3 light subclasses and would probably make for rather repetitive gameplay

So it leaves a minimal amount of enemy variety unless you do each subclass separately (which runs its own risks of not being able to differentiate different guardian types, or the opposite problem of them being so recognizable it becomes weird because you just killed that guy like 5 minutes ago)

[trim grotto]

Bungie also have a pretty strong tendency NOT to use human enemies, as seen with all of Halo, for example.

[frigid sparrow]

I dunno I killed the fuck out of the BOBs

[trim grotto]

Haha well to be fair the actual BOBs weren't enemies either

I believe the only Halo human enemy was... The one corrupt police officer in ODST

[frigid sparrow]

Ermm marathon infinity

Different timelines different allegiances

Plus we got dredgen sere tee hee

[haughty stump]

You can make a hard horror game with both the fallen and hive. Also didn’t guardians fight each other? Warlords and shit? Yea you can def try to go liberating from camp to camp, but in the end you die, and the game ends. Pessimistic ending but I think sums up the dark ages

[haughty stump]

Yea I see that, I’d say the game would be small tho, serving as a time piece into what it was like, no bigger than a dlc

Either way this is just hypothetical bullshit I like pulling out, cause this game makes me love being whimsical

[celest trail]

How did the vex on tharsis gain sentience?

[slow berry]

Maya separated them from the vex hive mind and gave them individuality (they were already sentient)

[analog trail]

Civil rights movement happened

[slow berry]

As Maya's hold over the echo waned and more Vex started to split off from her command, a group of independent Vex were aided by Drifter and escaped to the Tharsis frontier

[celest trail]

Okay

I wish I could like find out about maya in game but I wasn’t here for that season

[slow berry]

As we saw from Edge of Fate, the choral vex (Also individualistic, but following Maya Sundaresh) do hunt down and kill Vex that separate from them

[slow berry]

well its just lightfall really

[celest trail]

Maya was in lightfall?

[slow berry]

and then all you need to know is she has the echo of command and she compels people to do her bidding

[slow berry]

veil containment

[slow berry]

There's more about her and her motivations but its not strictly needed just to follow the story

She killed her wife about a couple hundred times looking "her" real one then kill that one too bc she didn't like what she said to her, so she decided she wasn't the one either

And wants to pull the Golden Age forwards into our time

which is lowkey not a bad idea honestly why dont they just let her do that tbh

[frigid sparrow]

Vex began gaining independence from Maya
Some independent vex become rogue due to Maya's waning power (seen from sharp cheddar in kepler)
Zephyrus and the other vex were smuggled by drifter at some point between dlcs and form the tharsis reformation

It's noted that, whether literal or metaphorical, the sentience of individual vex is something the rest of the collectives try and quarantine themselves from, like a disease

[celest trail]

Okay

[slim girder]

Do you know the ramifications of what would happen if Maya actually achieved that?

[dim minnow]

she wanted to switch Golden Age Earth with current Earth under the assumption that we would win against the Witness back then

[slim girder]

Where's the lore tab of drifter smuggling vex to tharsis? Sounds like an interesting read because I thought there was lore saying once maya gave the vex the ability to think for themselves it was up to them whether they followed.

[dim minnow]

Maya wasn't happy with her own Vex wanting to do their own thing

hence why they had to be smuggled out

[frigid sparrow]

It should be a dialogue within lawless frontier

[slim girder]

Ahh I see. I was under the assumption they decided not to follow and then jumped through a vex portal or something. Mars does have vex architecture through some of its surface.

[haughty stump]

wait there's a hive mind?

[dim minnow]

no

Vex actually are not a Hive mind

[haughty stump]

it's gotta be likea decentralized structure right?

[dim minnow]

though they give off the illusion of one

[haughty stump]

interesting

i lowk never learned where they domc form

[dim minnow]

they're a collective mind

[dim minnow]

there is Unveiling, but that source is very allegorical

[slim girder]

Think of it like this. All vex think about the same thing. A hive mind implies they would have a leader but they don't. The vex all think about "The pattern" everything and everyone must fit into that pattern and if they don't they are made to fit or cut away. Vex don't have emotions and they don't even see us as enemies or are even angry when we kill them because they can't perceive emotions like anger or hate towards us. To them we are anomalies that don't fit into the pattern so they when they "attack" it's more like them moving to dispose of a weed in their garden if that makes sense. There is no end to them and they will never stop until that goal is acheived.

Maya using her echo of command has managed to create new vex that can think for themselves which is something vex have never had in their entire existence.

[dim minnow]

what's interesting is that even before Maya the Vex were capable of disagreeing with each other

for example, other Vex believed that the Virgo Prohibition (Mars Vex [not Black Garden]) were ill-equipped for their job

and all the other Vex are wary of the Sol Divisive due to their Darkness worship

[slim girder]

It does seem like the vex do have some difference between their sectors

All trying to do the same thing ofc but each operating in slightly different ways save for extreme exceptions like the Sol divisive.

[trim grotto]

to be faaiiiirrr

the divisive do still work for roughly the same goal

[slim girder]

That's why i said extreme exceptions. Sol divisive are still vex but the whole "worship to survive" is def not something any other sector of vex would ever do.

Though i am very curious what we might see from them in the future once they're done crying about the witness

[junior kernel]

yooooooo
he said the thing

[frigid sparrow]

narrator: "But the guardian did, in fact, go Renegade"

[trim grotto]

"Why did you go renegade, Guardian!? After all we've been through!"
"someone asked me to and I have as much agency as an AI chatbot"

[ember storm]

you'd think Zavala would just have a list for it by now

unsanctioned dreadnaught infiltration during TTK, CoO campaign (Ikora specifically didn't tell anyone about it to keep it from Zav), Warmind, Forsaken, portions of the WQ campaign (Ikora again), iirc the very start of LF where we follow Osiris just running onto a shadow legion ship

[queen swallow]

The entire Destiny story is all secretly one big stealth mission to hide everything from Zavala, only we're way too enthusiastic with explosions and so he notices anyways

[slim girder]

This is why we were caydes favourite

And as much as Zavala might be a stickler for the rules he can't deny results

[slim elk]

He's grown out of the rule stickler now with Final Shape

[frigid sparrow]

One. Fucking. Guardian.

[slim elk]

Remember
It's canon
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=He6CO2osqnU&pp=ygUWRGVzdGlueSAyIG9uZSBndWFyZGlhbg%3D%3D

[slim girder]

Miss you Lance

[slim elk]

||Even funnier in context when you remember Savathun is right there and probably awed behind the mask||

[wraith kernel]

So... Why didn't the Witness have Strand before?

Just classic gameplay reason "because it wasnt in the game duhhh" or is there an actual lore reason to it?

I can't imagine the being made from and woven into the very Darkness itself, wouldn't be aware of the the existence of the Weave and the power of Strand.

I once read that the Witness COULDN'T wield/use Strand because it needed the user to relinquish control, to "go with the flow" to be able to use it and the Witness just shrimply cannot let go of control.

[slim girder]

The witness can manipulate the energies of darkness but can't fully control them to the extent we do.

But the dread are examples of it being able to utilise stasis and strand with a combination of the light as well.

[wraith kernel]

huh

I actually saw that the other way around

Our Light and Darkness elements as what came out of a prism

and that the Traveler / Witness had what went into a prism.

[slim girder]

Prism?

[wraith kernel]

it's just a metaphor

Arc, Solar, Void / Strand, Stasis are all just Light and Darkness diluted

whatever white-blueish magic the Traveler uses is the pure form of Light

and the Yellow-black shit the Witness has (resonance?) is the pure form of Darkness

shine those through a prism (us and other beings/weapons maybe) and boom, the elements come out

an easier, simpler form of those elementary forces of the universe, that us mere mortals can use

[haughty stump]

Who tf gave them that pattern 😭😭

But then. There’s the vex you see with the cool hoops on their head

And then sol divisive

[trim grotto]

They are the pattern.

[haughty stump]

So there are factions no?

[queen swallow]

Subsets of the hivemind with specific purposes

[haughty stump]

Yes but it’s like, why? Who made the vex then?

[haughty stump]

Like Atheon?

[trim grotto]

Unveiling aside, nobody. They evolved.

[queen swallow]

Remember, Vex are actually the white fluid inside the robot bodies

[trim grotto]

Or rather, the microscopic things within that fluid.

[queen swallow]

Do we know how they actually made the robots in the first place? Seems hard for a fluid to accomplish that

[haughty stump]

This gotta be the most peak shit ever!!

[haughty stump]

WHAT?!?

[trim grotto]

I'll continue this in half an hour when I get home

[haughty stump]

Radiolarian fluid?

[trim grotto]

Vex Milk

Not literally milk of course

Anyway see you shortly

[queen swallow]

Drive safe!

[haughty stump]

I remember searching up vex milk and seeing a. Vex goblin with big 🍒

[queen swallow]

Yeah... that's not canon

[haughty stump]

Autonomy huh

[haughty stump]

Gladly

[queen swallow]

Anyway, yes, there are some Vex now that are autonomous via Maya's Echo of Command

And the first thing they decide to do with free will is gamble

[haughty stump]

Peak lmao

[slim elk]

Don't forget fashion

[slow berry]

We kinda do actually iirc?

One of the physical lore books has something about them developing shells and then going from that i think

Something around those lines

[queen swallow]

Intriguing

[trim grotto]

It's in the BL CE
Highly recommend reading both parts if you haven't already
I have a link to part 1

[queen swallow]

Sure!

[trim grotto]

Uno momento

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit?usp=drivesdk

Part 2 of the Logbook is on Ishtar as per usual

[queen swallow]

Thanks Mael!

[trim grotto]

right okay i'm properly around now

for the record @haughty stump the above link also dives into the origins of the vex, as does the sequel on Ishtar

[trim grotto]

And, yes. Different factions of Vex for different purposes, but all working towards the ultimate goal of Convergence. Think of it as their own form of Final Shape.

The Hezen, both Corrective and Protective, were focused around Venus, such as the Ishtar facilities and the Vault of Glass. The Protective specifically were the Vex you fight within and around it.

[haughty stump]

oh cool! yea i can't understand the unveiling book at all

[trim grotto]

It's a giant metaphor. A creationism story of a time before existence and how the concepts became what we know today as reality.

It's also propaganda.

[fluid peak]

Isn't that when British people take a good look at something?

[jagged badge]

YES

I love that joke, I’m genuinely so excited to see someone else make it lmao

[fringe sundial]

also the descendants honoring saint

dedicating two minds to defending his grave iirc

[lone jacinth]

The vex go all the way back to the supercut and the original idea of the flower game with the gardener and winnower. the og concept art with the black garden looking like it had a concave curvature which people believed may have gone together with it being the inside of the traveller and the traveller not being "good"

[haughty stump]

Lowk bummed the echo of navigation didn’t through away his logic

Oryx grew to defy his logic out of love
Savathuan defied hers out of logic
Xivu arath is the unwavering one so far

[ember storm]

it was a snapshot copy of a younger Oryx at the height of his reign

it was literally incapable of changing

[haughty stump]

Regardless if he was that truthful of the logic he should have immediately surrendered the echo to us, and its power. But he didn’t, only at the end does he understand in a sense why he betrayed his logic, and couldn’t cope with leaving it behind fully, and asked for death.

[ember storm]

Oryx did not have the echo

the Oryx was not Oryx

[haughty stump]

Surrendered himself then idk

[ember storm]

it was literally just a thing

basically one of those deepfake videos companies are trying to sell to play at a deceased person's funeral

not the real thing in the slightest, you shouldn't compare the two at all

[haughty stump]

Unlike the other ones, it. Actually possessed a form of sentience.

[ember storm]

the Echo simply had to come to terms with the fact that Oryx, the actual Oryx, was dead

[haughty stump]

I mean paracusal energy does what it wants

[ember storm]

no, the others do

the echo of Riis literally hated Fikrul and chose Eramis as its new wielder

[haughty stump]

He knew from the get go, and tried to enforce his own logic, but, something held him back.

[ember storm]

the Echo was convinced it was Oryx reborn

it accepted at the end that it wasn't

[haughty stump]

How is it not sentient? Yes it’s derived from oryx’s memory, but its not like its going to adhere to the actions of its future, completely, it changes

[ember storm]

everyone interacting with it was either just playing along to get something out of it (Eris) or just grieving the fact that Oryx has been dead for a while and pretending it was real (Xivu)

[ember storm]

all the echoes have been sentient, no?

the fact is it's literally just not the real Oryx

it didn't have years of experience and change the actual individual had

I'm not saying it was literally just a mindless programmed thing but it was quite literally just not the guy

it didn't understand what Oryx came to understand over his life and just looked at it with the objective perspective of "This doesn't jive with the sword logic, you guys are losers"

basically just the same as the clovis head on europa

[haughty stump]

Oh yes it’s definitely different from him, but I think he could have still been good. Yea all the echos are sentient but navigation is unique because it doesn’t require to be wielded by something to be seen as an entity.

[ember storm]

Oryx without the sword logic would just be more spiteful and vindictive, not friendly

figuring out the worm gods lied to him would just make him double down and want to kill more

[haughty stump]

I thought that’s what it came to understand over the course of the season? I mean his sisters perversion and defiance of the logic, also crumbled him, idk why at the end of it all, I see your point how he learned to realize he wasn’t oryx before, but idk why he thought he had to die, he knows how vex are, coulda chalked it up to being a timeline or something,

[ember storm]

it didn't understand the thoughts and experiences Oryx had as an individual, like having a desire to raise a family, which is why it just described them all as straying from the sword logic

[haughty stump]

Ofc because his faith was destroyed, he would in due time learn to reconstruct himself, he wouldn’t kill just to kill, cause the logic is dead, rather prob exact revenge and purge his own hive if he could. Should have stayed as a creature to fight Xivu Arath but not care for us.

[ember storm]

all it had was other repeatedly describing events that wouldn't adhere to the sword logic which made its mental foundations crumble

[haughty stump]

Hmm

But couldn’t it learn? He gets taught a bunch of what happens and he def tries to understand the logic behind the real oryx’s decision? Sure it would take a while

Oh wait

I think because everybody had their own twist and perversion of what they wanted the new oryx to be

Xivu Arath

[ember storm]

think of it this way

[haughty stump]

Vs savathan

[ember storm]

you prepare a clone when you're like 17

[haughty stump]

Whole time trying to understand his real life, he would rather die

[ember storm]

but it stays 17 for decades while you just go on with your life

[haughty stump]

Ok…

[ember storm]

then all of a sudden it's accidentally released after you're dead

your family and friends could try explaining what YOU were like and what you did over the course of your life past being 17

[haughty stump]

Ok

[ember storm]

but the clone literally has no frame of reference for that

it can't just learn and feel the same things you did when it just gets a bulletpoint list summary of everything that happened

it's just fundamentally not you, nothing can change that

even it it tries to pick apart every little decision, it's always going to know that you did things on your own without knowing there was a version that already successfully did all that on their own without anyone making them

so the Echo just came to terms with the fact that Oryx had been dead for years at that point and it didn't have any real reason to exist

iirc the echoes were just an unintended side effect of the witness dying, nobody planned for them to happen or anything

[haughty stump]

It didn’t feel like living on its own instead?

Well no ig i answered that

Everybody wanted to use it

[ember storm]

it had literally nothing going for it

everyone wanted to use it like a battery

it knew it wasn't Oryx and didn't want to have to play pretend with Xivu any more

also we were like holding a sword that could kill it so it didn't really object

[haughty stump]

That’s why it said “I do not yield but I have nowhere left to go”

[ember storm]

it kept spawning enemies out of principle but wasn't personally upset at us

it's why the last words were basically just mourning

[haughty stump]

For a Brief moment it tried to escape it. It went to the edge. Damn the stars must have

[haughty stump]

I see

[ember storm]

At least the stars will remember the shape I gave them...```

still hits pretty hard tbh

[haughty stump]

Im tearing up bro

[haughty stump]

Yea it wasn’t in a stable state, it just dealth with not being oryx and realizing oryx violated the logic. Vanguard blunders once again

[ember storm]

who needs the vanguard when you have scur-v

[haughty stump]

A machine😭

[ember storm]

he'll always be there for me

[haughty stump]

Yea I still think we cohlda had a nice story with oryx, and all, should have died at Xivu araths hands,

Wait why was Xivu Arath a heretic?

[ember storm]

least i can trust that scur-v won't use golden gun to add clear a bunch of red bar scorn like a certain hunter vanguard

[ember storm]

she just kinda sucked at her job

she spent so long trying to prepare instead of directly fighting us that it got to the point where it would now be a bad idea for her to even show her face

could be seen as cowardice

[haughty stump]

Tbf scorn are mega buffed in cutscenes

[slow berry]

Oryx, Savathûn and Xivu Arath all broke away from Sword Logic for their own personal gain, not particularly out of any love or appreciation for it (specially Savathûn, who wanted fully out of it), starting from the use of Ascendant Thrones to avoid death. Oryx primarily does it to try to recoup the tithes that Crota was now no longer providing and avenge him instead of simply accepting his death as him being weak, and Xivu Arath hides from confrontation once she's maneouvred out of having a Throne, then sends forces to take the Echo of Navigation for herself out of grief rather than accepting that Oryx has died.

None of them really truly adhere to Sword Logic as an actual set of beliefs and just use it to justify sustaining the worms

[slim elk]

Of note is an early circumstance where both Savathun and Xivu get killed by Oryx to power himself up and it appears to have been a "true death"

Hive hate necromancy and yet their gods used it

[slow berry]

to be noted that by the time the memory of the echo of navigation is from oryx had already killed like

one trillion bajillion people

maybe in some other universe oryx could've lived as a simple navigator and mapped the stars and explored the universe, empowered by the light

but that's exactly the tragedy behind the Hive

[slim elk]

That was technically what Savathun was trying to do with the Echo

[slow berry]

not really

[slim elk]

Even invited him back to see their homeworld to see what became of it

[slow berry]

savathûn has not stopped her plans for control and domination, she has simply managed to extricate herself from the need to feed the worms

[slim elk]

(Plus earlier effort to revive Oryxs corpse)

[slow berry]

not her, but rather her increasingly panicking forces)

at the time her corpse was being held by the vanguard

savathûn was and is still grieving oryx, but she is not a peaceful woman

neither xivu arath and savathûn would have oryx simply exist

they would have both used him as a tool

[slim elk]

Her reactions during Hersy definitely showed she was utterly pissed at the Echo being destroyed and losing Oryx again

So while not being a peaceful navigator. Definitely wanted him back

[slow berry]

yeah so loke

This very powerful entity that we could not have in our power, but others could

hence why we killed it, and why it allowed itself to be killed instead of being used

[slim elk]

That's the funny part
Where Oryx would be perfectly fine with us using him in the Echo

[slow berry]

Well no

[slim elk]

The whole heir thing

[slow berry]

He wouldn't have

He starts with that before realizing the state of the sword logic by the end of the episode and his own identity

"I do not yield. But, I have nowhere left to go.

Have you counted the stars, Guardian-Knife? Have you understood the spaces between them? I vowed once to understand. And I have not. And I do not. Every vow I have made is empty.

I have already failed. As my sisters have become heretics, so too, have I. Long ago, Oryx was killed. If I am still Oryx, then I am already dead. And if I am not Oryx, then I do not live. Aiat. That is enough.

At least the stars will remember the shape I gave them..."

By the end of the episode he realizes not only Oryx had been a heretic, if the Echo itself was Oryx, then it is also being heretical

Disillusioned by what was to become of himself and his sisters millions of years from his memory, he willingly faces you in a losing fight to be destroyed.

[slim elk]

It's just a muddled mess
Since Savathun herself knows the whole story with the Hive was a lie

Don't think that came up with the Echo

[slow berry]

It did, Savathûn told Oryx and is the reason why she tells him to visit Fundament

[slow berry]

It doesn't matter, though - specially from Oryx, who at this point had communed with the Deep and thus had achieved an understanding of the Sword Logic not stemming from the lies told in Fundament, but from the actual Winnower

Keep in mind there's a difference between the actual sword logic and the tithe system the Hive have for satiating the worms' hunger

[slim elk]

Yep
Sword logic is you actually doing the action. Not taking the claim from others

[slow berry]

Worm or not, Oryx truly believed in the Sword Logic and was by far the most understanding of it

[slow berry]

Well, no

Sword Logic as the Hive use it is just a vague approximation of the Winnower's idea that a single, final pattern exists at the end of the universe

[slim elk]

The ultimate "winner" of the life game

Winnower finding the struggles and conflicts to reach that point utterly beautiful and what gives meaning

[slow berry]

The sword logic as the hive see it is that anything that cannot defend itself against a different force should be cut down by a more powerful force

For the Hive, who would believe themselves the ultimate force, this would hone them until eventually they're all that remain

Even if Oryx did not have a worm, he would continue believing in the Sword Logic

[slim elk]

What's a fun contrast is the Winnower-Darkness is much more liberal with anyone actually using its power. Hive wiped out a few darkness utilizing Species and redacted them from history

Meanwhile the Light-Gardener is tightly reserved in who is able to use it

[slow berry]

The winnower isn't actually tied to the darkness btw

as far as we can understand, given the paracausal aspect of darkness, it's more likely that the winnower would've rather had neither of them at all in the universe

[dim minnow]

there is still quite a bit of debate on the exact nature of Light and Dark when regarding Gardener and Winnower

the Winnower does have a link to Darkness, but it may not be tied to it in the way the Gardener is to the Light

[slow berry]

While Savathûn saw the logic as lies fed to them by the Witness and Xivu Arath claims to live by them, Oryx actually genuinely communed with the Winnower

Then Auryx said, "Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny."

His speech to the Deep is not recorded here. But it is known that he returned, and he said, now I am Oryx, the Taken King. And I have the power to take life and make it my own.