📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

She doesn't. Micah-10 is known as the Den-Mother-Of-Ghosts, they flock to her akin a Speaker. She took care of them, and helped protect them.

[empty fern]

The massive fool of April

[keen seal]

You don’t wanna know

Lol

[trim grotto]

Not like that. Most Guardians are quite close to their Ghosts, for obvious reasons.

[chilly ginkgo]

So those ghosts were "guardianless" ghosts and she took care of them?

[keen seal]

Sounds more like she killed the guardians and stole them

[trim grotto]

Exactly. Helps them find their Chosen, or just tends to them. She's done so for centuries.

[keen seal]

I take that back

[chilly ginkgo]

Bro what 😭

Quick question, what happened with Ruin? That first servant of the Witness? Is it dead? (I haven't played any of the older campaigns, I just got into Destiny 2 and played TLS)

[keen seal]

Idk any lore man I just write what I think sounds about right

[keen seal]

Exploded

[trim grotto]

Rhulk, you mean? He was the so called First Disciple.

[chilly ginkgo]

Him, yeah

[keen seal]

Boom

[trim grotto]

Well, you can find out yourself in the Vow of the Disciple Raid as part of Witch Queen, set directly after the campaign.

[chilly ginkgo]

The one who had a villain anime relationship with his parents

[sick yew]

Thats what happens in Shattered Suns?

[keen seal]

what

[trim grotto]

Among other things

[sick yew]

[sick yew]

But yeah we kinda beat the shit out of him

Hes dead

Very dead

[keen seal]

Exploded to be precise

[sick yew]

Well he went the way all Witness forces do, dissolve into a bunch of roots and whatnot

[chilly ginkgo]

His parents loved him, but he liked murdering things just like his father, but then he tried to change, but instead of changing he embraced darkness even more and then he fell out of a bridge with his parents looking and they were relieved he was dead, then the Witness found him and make him his disciple.

It's something like that

[sick yew]

I wonder why that happens now that I think of it?
Is it because of resonance?

[keen seal]

Damn man I’m just playing the game to make cracked builds to kill cosmodrome enemies

[chilly ginkgo]

Lol

[keen seal]

Idk any of that

[keen seal]

Solo player activities

[chilly ginkgo]

Idk, I just wanted to know about the background of what I'm playing

[trim grotto]

There was a bit more to it. He was an incredibly angry person and felt his father had betrayed him and his outcast people. And of course, this ended in the shattering of Lubrae.

Rhulk was not exactly an emotionally stable person

[keen seal]

Anything you hear about Mara sovs water is true btw

Believe everything you hear or read about it

[chilly ginkgo]

I guess therapists were really expensive in Lubrae

[trim grotto]

They might have been free, but he would have never known. His people were outcasts, nomads, exiled from the great city.

[ember storm]

Why is lore chat active

oh

ew

April fools makes me orange? Gross

[chilly ginkgo]

I came here asking a question and then we started talking about dead people

[sick yew]

Do you know any of that Mael? Or is it just a stylistic choice

[trim grotto]

On that note, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the famous tale of Lord Shaxx and Mara Sov was far more literal than interpreted. He did, in fact, simply read the Tempest to her - and then they discussed Sjur Eido, as Lord Shaxx knew her as well.

[ember storm]

Is this what you feel like on a regular basis mael

I don’t like it

[trim grotto]

Well congratulations Waltz, you get to take over
Because I need to sleep because I have work tomorrow

[chilly ginkgo]

Gn

[ember storm]

What’s popping cool kids

Give me a rundown

rushdown

[sick yew]

Okay so Waltz I heard that Shin Malphur is insanely strong

He got chosen by a ghost while he was alive

Incredible right

[ember storm]

I wish he stayed dead as a baby

[sick yew]

He surely is the strongest hunter in history, 2nd obviously being Dredgen Yor

[ember storm]

Third is obviously drifter

[sick yew]

Naturally

[ember storm]

So I guess mael was the driving force behind the whole convo huh

Less work for me

[sick yew]

It was the other person but theyre gone it seems

[jagged badge]

[fresh zephyr]

Imagine the Dreadnaught as the new HELM

[chilly ginkgo]

Out of complete curiosity

What is the character D2 community is more thirsty about?

[empty fern]

Smelly

[empty fern]

We haven’t really had a popular one in a while
So I guess…
Ada?

[chilly ginkgo]

You're into transformers now

I would say Mara is the best looking so far?

I wouldn't mind

[empty fern]

The community kind of left that mindset a while ago so, not sure who it is now

[jagged badge]

Did it?

[empty fern]

Think so, when was the last time Mara was truly relevant

Maybe lost?

[hollow hinge]

Literally Wish and start of TFS lmao

[little gorge]

yeah so rushdown will be over in 2 hours and 13 minutes

[strong tendon]

One of the post final shape campaign missions focuses on Mara and savathun (two queens, part 1 and 2)

[empty fern]

Oh right,

My d2 memory started fading around echos ,_,

[strong tendon]

Valid

[ancient drum]

Something weird is happening on the Ishtar site

[fresh zephyr]

Could it be April Fools

😱😱😱

[ember storm]

Nah it’s permanent forever

[hazy veldt]

what exaclty does upended do

[ember storm]

Upends

[jagged badge]

I forgot screen recordings record my music too lmao

[ember storm]

Turns worlds upside down

[hazy veldt]

i get the "seal from the light" thing but

[ember storm]

literally just like

Big doomsday machine

[hazy veldt]

its metaphorical

[hazy veldt]

it is but as far i understand it

it messes with the sun of a certain planet

[ember storm]

it is also OPPORTUNITY, PRESERVATION, SALVATION!

[hazy veldt]

but in throne world the are no suns

so im confused

[ember storm]

That was just its original purpose with lubrae

Rhulk literally just uses it as a doomsday machine

[hazy veldt]

i mean until today i thought that "crack the sun in half" feat was achieved with upended

[ember storm]

It doesn’t need a sun to function

It siphoned power from lubrae’s sun

[hazy veldt]

ohh that makes sense actually

then it harvested power from the sun

now it does from xita

[ember storm]

Well did

She’s kinda like

Not well

[hazy veldt]

ye ik

[little gorge]

it has been repeatedly mentioned to "turn worlds upside down"

[hazy veldt]

but upended is just powered off

[ember storm]

Literally gravity manipulation innit

[little gorge]

which i guess is another destiny writer euphemism for "destroy"

they love those

[hazy veldt]

so there is a dormant doomsday device in savathuns throne world

[ember storm]

I’ll never forgive them for turning the pale heart into a real place

[sleek matrix]

Its not dormant

Its dead

[ember storm]

I’m okay with the location existing but the name used to just be a clever wordplay

[sleek matrix]

Its no longer a threat

[hazy veldt]

device cant be dead

xita is

[sleek matrix]

It needs a power source

[little gorge]

that was admittedly goofy

[ember storm]

Mars rover died

[hazy veldt]

but upended theoretically can be powered on

[hazy veldt]

yeah we dont talk abt that

[little gorge]

it should've just been called the akashic records

but that would be too cliche for bungie

[ember storm]

Very said

There was funeral

[hazy veldt]

also i saw the funny "leaked" roadmap

the one with kfc collab

if yall saw it

[ember storm]

Cliche and bungie are counter intuitive

No wait what’s the word

Oxymoron

No

[hazy veldt]

and it mentioned smth about lubrae in 2027

(game wont survive that long)

[little gorge]

we are not going to lubrae it is dust

[hazy veldt]

not implying we can go there

just smth about it

[little gorge]

people say that all the time and yet theres a new act coming out today

[little gorge]

guys lubrae will be mentioned in 2027

[hazy veldt]

crazy

[hollow hinge]

it's one additional expansion, game will in fact still be going strong

[hazy veldt]

i mean vanguard sent a probe there (significant lore implication)

[hollow hinge]

OUR GUARDIAN KNOWS XIVU'S FACE

[strong tendon]

RAISE A HYMN TO THE GOD OF WAR

[hazy veldt]

huh

i havent played missions yet elaborate

[fresh zephyr]

DARKBLADE SOUNDTRACK

10/10

[hollow hinge]

It's the first thing you see when you log on, just wait

[little gorge]

i missed her voice ngl

[sick yew]

Eris just said something along the lines of "Xivu would cut my throne world out of the Dreadnaught"

They are connected?

[sick yew]

🧎‍♂️‍➡️

[sick yew]

@ember storm you here?

I need you to look into something for me

[sleek matrix]

Yes because we opened her throne world from the dreadnought

To get to her

Using the sword relic

[hazy veldt]

how exactly did sagira die

i know its hive related but im not clear how

[sick yew]

There's a loretab I think

Let's see if I can find it

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/immolant-pt-1

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/immolant-pt-2

[trim grotto]

Definitely worth the read

[eager trout]

Are clans canon?

[empty fern]

Mmmmmaybe?

Maybe in guardian games or event lore, but not much outside of it

[eager trout]

So the Vex Offenders are canon

And Mara Sov's Boomers

[trim grotto]

Yes, though there's not really much of an impact there.

[ember storm]

There was already canonically a fireteam in D1 called “The Bad Guys Don’t Care What We Call Ourselves Do They”

https://youtu.be/2MZHOrF7K_0?si=Z3QXVVguRWCoS8yM

[thick wharf]

would the witness cook an aphelion or would an aphelion cook the witness

[trim grotto]

There's approximately 0% chance of the Aphelion beating the Witness, despite how little we know of the Aphelion.

[thick wharf]

so if we found a way to beat the witness we could beat an aphelion

since an aphelion is apparently no match

[slim girder]

Well we don't even know what an aphelion looks like.

[hollow hinge]

But yes

[slim girder]

Very hard to gauge something purely based of stories we hear about them

[hollow hinge]

And yet the answer is still yes

[thick wharf]

there’s art of them

kinda weird

[slim girder]

Extremely old concept art that shouldn't be taken literally. Like the witness was originally a big snake.

[thick wharf]

how old

[slim girder]

Like Pre D1 old

Iirc these were old enemy design concepts.

[thick wharf]

i find that hard to believe

[slim girder]

Those also aren't labelled as aphelion or anything.

[thick wharf]

maybe it is, they are very ambiguous after all

[slim girder]

Again these are extremely old concepts. There likely wasn't any kind of bigger meaning behind them.

Could something like that appear in Destiny? Maybe but until then they are just ideas for entities when destiny was still being made.

[thick wharf]

i predict that aphelions will be the plot of destiny 3

[slim girder]

[thick wharf]

mara sov gets in a pickle with aphelions and we gotta fight them

[slim girder]

We're in D2 for the next 10 years so buckle up

[thick wharf]

to keep humanity safe or whatever

[trim grotto]

Publicly released concept art tends to mean the concepts are either finished and released or unused and irrelevant.

[trim grotto]

In theory, sure. But context matters. Context always matters. A Dreg with a sharp rock can kill the most competent Guardian and their Ghost in the right scenario.

[bleak crow]

Isn’t this the warm that we shoved into Parasite

How does Eris have this?

[trim grotto]

I do not believe Savathûn's incredibly powerful, cursed Worm Parasite is in a terrarium instead of the Light imbued cage that is the weapon Parasite, no. I expect it's just a random Worm Parasite.

As for how? It's Eris. She kind of does whatever she wants at this point, despite being one of Ikora's Hidden.

Portal to the Hellmouth, grab Worm, portal home

[bleak crow]

wormnapping at its finest

speaking of worms

What exactly IS a throne world

is it just a giant thing like the dreadnaught?

[torpid flint]

You're blue now... this feels stranger. What happened to the orange?

[trim grotto]

Blue is for kool kidz

[eager trout]

Racism

[trim grotto]

A bubble of... Actually I'll explain in an hour when I get home
Unless you're a Homestuck fan because then think of Prospit and/or Derse and your Dreamer is contained within

Explaining on mobile is slow and I have to go

[ember storm]

The ascendant plane is like a different layer of reality and achieving throne world status allows you to cut out your own portion and claim it as your own, tying it to your own existence

Oryx’s throne world was special in that he inverted it back into the material plane (which was the Dreadnaught in this case) so it would be mobile and incredibly hard for anyone to actively invade

This came with the caveat of any death aboard the Dreadnaught being considered his true and final death, which is why he resorted to fleeing at the end of the taken king campaign until his last stand in King’s Fall

Savathun’s throne world is just out somewhere, I think situated near a black hole? Could be wrong, but her ship on mars simply has a portal to it, it’s not directly tied to that space in any way

[eager trout]

Savathun casually placing her Throne World in the safest but riskiest place

[next bobcat]

What is an aphelion and where do I read about them

[bleak crow]

Why did I instantly think minecraft 😭😭

[ember storm]

You don’t

They’re mentioned like

Four times

One of them is a weird field report about an awoken ship being attacked by one and like no bodies were ever recovered or anything

[slim girder]

Entry 5 bamberga of the dreaming city lorebook.

Details aphelion attack on a colony ship.

[next bobcat]

Ah thanks

[paper gorge]

who is obak-hul?

[raw hazel]

alak-hul's third cousin

[dim minnow]

Some random guy Oryx got locked up

He got no sauce unlike Alak-hul

[trim grotto]

Throne Worlds! They're fascinating. I didn't want to type the entire thing out so have this instead.
I ended up on a bit of a tangent though, haha.

oh hey i'm the right colour again

[echo brook]

fuck it was such a stupid choice for bungie to ||show us that eris survived instantly after she died in act 1||

completely ruined ||drifter's ongoing struggling with her loss|| >_>

[trim grotto]

True. But, 'tis what 'tis.

[raven glen]

Do yall think after the defeat of the witness theres worse powerful things out there that will follow the ideals of the winnoower. Then again ig the winnower isn’t exactly evil but just a force of nature of the universe and its the balance of the universe if im correct or not so ig i would say its just doing its job to balance the world ig or is it an actual entire we gotta pew pew bye bye it

[trim grotto]

We don't know an enormous amount about the Winnower, but it acts as more of an embodiment of death, negentropy, so on. I don't expect we'd actually fight it.

As for whether something may follow in its ideals as the Witness did? Sure, potentially. Threats still loom, even amongst known variables.

[sick yew]

Mael what's the leading theory on the bulldozer

[trim grotto]

que

[sick yew]

One sec

[raven glen]

Basically thats like a infinite issue that can never be stopped type thing basically future issues future problems type shii lmaooo. Threats always loom as long it exist as part of life ig lmaoooo or as long as BUNGIE CAN KEEP GOING LMAOOOO

[sick yew]

@trim grotto

The bulldozer

Might this be the Winnower in disguise?!

[trim grotto]

Uuuuh I haven't been on in a couple of weeks soooo I have no idea.

Doesn't look Cabal, so... might have been a modern operation in clearing the way, ordered by Deputy Commander Sloane.

[sick yew]

It literally just showed up today with act 3

Its the section leading up to the hull breach

[trim grotto]

fairy nuff
nevertheless, I'd vote Sloane

[sick yew]

It's so fucking random tho

It's hilarious

[dim minnow]

nah, it's Cabal

[sick yew]

Actually?

[dim minnow]

Skyburner specifically

[trim grotto]

That was my second guess but I didn't see any markings

[dim minnow]

you could find a lot of that stuff on the Dreadnaught back in D1

particularly in areas where the Skyburners were present

[trim grotto]

Well, yes, but it doesn't look particularly Cabal or Skyburner

[sick yew]

That doesn't look cabal at all imo especially the colors

[dim minnow]

keep in mind Cabal design in D1 was a lot different back then

[sick yew]

And if it were skyburner I'd be hella old by now and looks pretty good condition for that

[trim grotto]

Even so
Still, I haven't seen it myself outside of the clip

[sick yew]

It's sure to have major lore implications for Frontiers and beyond

[dim minnow]

regardless, I know for sure that's Cabal tech

since I know for sure I remember seeing that stuff in the Dreadnaught back in D1

[sick yew]

Log on and check rq

[sick yew]

[dim minnow]

these are all D1 screenshots taken of them

you can also find them in the EDZ

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/japonpr-will-ferrell-you-win-i-dont-know-hand-gesture-gif-16418217

[dim minnow]

here's a Red Legion one

this one appears to be on Nessus

so it seems like the white/orange/teal plows were just general Cabal ones for D1 while the red/gray ones are Red Legion in D2

[mental meadow]

would a guardian that loses their ghost start to age normally again

human at least

idk if awoken age, and I dont think exo do?

[trim grotto]

Actually funny you should mention this

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/shadestalker-gauntlets

[mental meadow]

do explain discord lore person who sounds suspiciously like byf 🗣️

[mental meadow]

ah, so yes they do

[trim grotto]

Short answer: Yes. They age.

Awoken also do age, but considering that Queen Mara Sov and Prince Uldren were the first to arrive in Sol during the early to mid Dark Ages and still look as they do, that showcases just how slowly they physically age.

[mental meadow]

and exos brains go weird after a while?

bro why is all the text on the ishtar website shifting ever so slightly

[trim grotto]

Exo... well, they're robots. Proper maintenance and they're immortal. As for the brains? That honestly depends on the person. Ada-1 and Banshee-44 haven't reset (since the Vexo War for Banshee), and it's been centuries. Others, like say, Lilakee-5/6/7, was a known sufferer of DER and would occasionally just spontaneously reset.

[trim grotto]

'tis the season

[mental meadow]

DER?

exo dementia?

[mental meadow]

its horrible 😭

[trim grotto]

Dissociative Exomind Rejection. Think of the Exobody as a full body prosthetic, and the brain would try and reject it.

If untreated, this would result in madness or braindeath. One of the counters... resets. A wipe of episodic memory.

In other words, applied amnesia.

This is where the number system of Exo comes from.

[mental meadow]

so if an exo lost their ghost

they could develop that issue?

[trim grotto]

Yes, theoretically. Lakshmi-2 was actually researching this herself at one point.

—Heyka-3/4: Notorious Dark Ages Warlord. Post-reset, became a lone raider.
—Vander-2/3: Rescued from the Great Disaster because reset incapacitated him. Served as City guard post-reset. Ghost destroyed on Luna. (Pre- or post-reset? Do Ghosts protect Exo Guardians from spontaneous reset?)```

I would argue the Ghost does protect Exo Guardians from this, for many reasons - not the least of which being lack of circumstantial evidence.

[mental meadow]

could be an interesting narrative
although im hoping they stop killing off peoples ghosts
we havent had a major character death since.. holiday?

[trim grotto]

Well. There was Cayde.

And Targe.

[mental meadow]

he was always tied to the pale heart tho, I think we all knew he wasnt really gona be properly back

[trim grotto]

That was the popular opinion, true. I believe he could have left, though.

Regardless, true.

[mental meadow]

It would also be nice for them not to put the major character death/return in the first trailer

still waiting on that fronteers release

[sick yew]

That's not how marketing works unfortunately

[fluid peak]

Marketing is the bane of many potentially awesome surprises

Such is life

[sick yew]

Well it's not like FS wasn't without its twists

[hazy veldt]

If all hive gods would be dead, hive would find new ones or just enter age of strife and end itself

[sick yew]

Depends honestly

[hazy veldt]

I mean every hive gods has kids

maybe they will assume the role

[sick yew]

They'd probably fracture like the Eliksni did
Some continuing with their old paths and others seek a new way

[hazy veldt]

they are still bound by worms though

[sick yew]

The latter would need to find a way to get rid of their worms tho if they want to abandon the worm logic

[sick yew]

Mhm

[hazy veldt]

savathun managed to pull this off bc well she is savathun

[sick yew]

She needed Mara Sov if you remember that season

[hazy veldt]

As soon as a hive removes the worm it is krill again

[sick yew]

But lucent hive don't have worms so it vjevks out

[hazy veldt]

She smart like that

That’s what i meant

[sick yew]

She had a whole ass content year to set up her scheme so yeah

[hazy veldt]

Lucent hive will probably survive no doubt but others

[sick yew]

[hazy veldt]

Also we DO NOT have a clue what happened to other worm gods

they just out there

[sick yew]

Might be

Maybe some died through whatever means

[hazy veldt]

We only know of akka xol and xita

[sleek matrix]

Xivu hive thingy is still alive i would assume

The others who knows

Savathun doesnt need a worm oryx is dead

[hazy veldt]

also correct me if I’m wrong but worm larvae is created by cutting a piece of worm

[sleek matrix]

Poor xivu is gonna get cooked

[hazy veldt]

If so, should all worm gods be killed, worms would lose their connection to darkness due to lack of strength, or they are enough of conduit themselves

Btw there is still oryx’s worm out there being saturn’s 275th moon

[blazing wasp]

worms are cultivated by hive in incubators, some of the larvae might be but not all of them are

[blazing wasp]

presumably in his carcass on titan, yes

[trim grotto]

Actually, it was noted as missing from the carcass.

[hazy veldt]

yep

oryx's corpse missed his worm

[blazing wasp]

oh, i must've missed that

[hazy veldt]

it is either orbiting saturn chilling

[blazing wasp]

its possible it'll become relevant again, in that case

[hazy veldt]

or rocking on titan

or retrieved by hive for other future purposes

worth noting oryx's worm is most well-fed worm in existence

[sick yew]

Isn't it most likely dead as fuck

Worms don't tend to live long if their host dies

[hazy veldt]

idk if they can die of starvation

[blazing wasp]

the more fed it is, the more it starves

[hazy veldt]

they will consume host if not fed

but without host

[sick yew]

They can as evidence by Savathuns worm quest

[trim grotto]

Sav actually cursed her Worm

Because she's petty

[sick yew]

Oh

[hazy veldt]

yeah she smart like that

[sick yew]

But in general the chances of Oryx's worm still being around are slim to none no?

[hazy veldt]

i mean i doubt bungie would just leave him like that

[trim grotto]

While I'm not totally convinced Oryx's Worm lives, even Eris keeps a Worm in a glass terrarium in her apartment of all things - and she sure ain't feeding it death.

[hazy veldt]

and then say "oh he actually died lmao"

[sick yew]

There's no evidence to suggest it's still alive as far ax I can tell

[jagged badge]

Without going into the specifics

I will say that Oryx’s worm is mentioned in Act 3

[sick yew]

It is?

Huh

Where

[hazy veldt]

current week or future

ik all dialogues were datamined and leaked as far as 2 month ago

[jagged badge]

Bruh

[trim grotto]

you know eris is a mod right

[sick yew]

Yeah we don't talk about those

[jagged badge]

I’m a mod and I’m also not a shitty person, so I’m not talking about datamines/leaks

[hazy veldt]

im not gonna mention any of them

i just know they exist

[sick yew]

Anyway back to the discussion at hand

[jagged badge]

I mean what I played through this week mentions Oryx’s worm

[sick yew]

Then I didn't pay close enough attention

Remind me please

[jagged badge]

Aha, it was random Nether dialogue

[trim grotto]

spiolors plox

[jagged badge]

DLV has it

I will spoiler the post and not say anything specific about it though

||https://youtu.be/MhRBeGzyAD8?si=MXV9fV3pLcIW1-qF||

[hazy veldt]

oh xd i actually waited to hear his reaction on this

[sick yew]

"Knife of my slaying, you continue to be a real one"

[hazy veldt]

i saw a funny edit of savathun and oryx chatting with eric mays "im not playing on my phone" audio

taking care of business refering to taken king jr.

[hazy veldt]

||also why the fuck would savathun try to ressurect oryx with light ESPECIALLY knowing how he would react||

also wasnt she dead at the time

[jagged badge]

||Because a resurrected Oryx wouldn’t react that way. He’d have no memories||

||And yeah she was dead, but it was a plan she put in place that was carried out by her brood||

[hazy veldt]

ah ofc forgot abt that

[blazing wasp]

||savathun made a loooot of plans in motion and prepared||

[hazy veldt]

||i mean he definitely would find out at some point||

as long as xivu exists he would

if i remember correctly dreadnaught is 5 billion years old i dont rember where was it mentioned tho

if its true i very much doubt that fundament still exists

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/ghost-scan-oryx

Ghost: It's Oryx. These statues, everything here was created before Earth was formed. I wonder how many worlds Oryx has taken.

[hazy veldt]

so more than 4 billion years old for sure

[trim grotto]

There is an argument to be made that the stone or Worm God flesh itself was simply older than earth rather than the statue, per se, but take it as you will.

[hazy veldt]

i doubt that bungie would imply that

they would emphasize how old hive is most likely

[trim grotto]

This was D1, remember. Not everything holds up quite as face value as it does today. But yes, nothing has explicitly contradicted this thus far.

[hazy veldt]

even though fundament is a gas giant, i dont think it would endure for that long

[trim grotto]

Even if it does, it was abandoned by the Hive. Besides that, it'd be unrecognisable.

[hazy veldt]

also hive butchered every single life form on fundament while leaving it so

it is definitely unrecognisable

[little gorge]

||us accidentally upholding the sword logic is so funny||

[sick yew]

I mean wouldn't be the first time

If we weren't inherently heretical due to being undying we'd make for amazing sword logic believers

Come to think of it we never really had any guardians allying with the hive had we

Besides maybe Dredgen Yor but that's a bit of a stretch

[blazing wasp]

its extremely rare we see any guardians assisting what can be considered the enemy

[sick yew]

Well guardians have been chill with the Eliksni even before Splicer and stuff

Mithrax has been hanging out with guardians for as long as the Forsaken days

[hazy veldt]

I only can think of 2 bigger sword logic contributors than oryx

Witness guaranteed

And maybe rhulk bc he mentioned that he turned countless worlds upside down

Except neither of them had worms

Rhulk went as far as considering wormgods as oversized husks or something and hive as literal insects

[sick yew]

Upholding the sword logic and simply killing aren't exactly the same thing imo
Otherwise Saint would be considered an insane warrior of the sword logic which I wouldn't consider him as it wasn't his specific intention

[hazy veldt]

Exactly, i mentioned that neither of them had worms

[sick yew]

And the Witness itself doesn't really give a shit about the sword logic either

[hazy veldt]

Which isolates them from sword logic lowk

[hazy veldt]

Not like it didn’t give a shit

[sick yew]

I wouldn't say that either
Sword logic is like a religion you can follow it and that makes you contribute to it

Worm or not

[hazy veldt]

But it had different vision on final shape and thought sword logic childish

[sleek matrix]

The witness was a charlatan

Like oryx said

[hazy veldt]

Na bc worm is what connects sword logic believer to darkness

Without it ur just deranged maniac

[sleek matrix]

The purpose it seeked out goes against the winnower sword logic and what oryx orginally followed

[hazy veldt]

Hand does not command the knife what shape to carve or smth

[sleek matrix]

Yea

[sick yew]

In slightly similar related news
Can I get Oryx to say "Knive of my slaying, to arms" whenever combat starts?

[sleek matrix]

I had that pop up

[sick yew]

He says it in the strike

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/463054485376335872/1356753834805956688/Replay_2025-04-01_20-49-30.mp4?ex=67ee5fb9&is=67ed0e39&hm=f081c3318e662dfc98c69acaa9c9c0155a6576f9499f032656010eaf3836f2a4&

🧎‍♂️‍➡️ 🧎‍♂️‍➡️

[sleek matrix]

We are his knife after all

Whatever turned that into a taken

Is out there in the deep

[sick yew]

Whenever Oryx opens his mouth and speaks towards us I'm like hell yes King whatever you command

[sleek matrix]

[sick yew]

Probably the resonant knife

[sleek matrix]

Something more

I doubt a dread commander has the power to make new taken

[sick yew]

Sloane mentions that she believes it's the one who gained control of the taken in some Nether dialogue

[sleek matrix]

And take like that

[sleek matrix]

Yes

But if you dig into it more

Theres defo another entity behind all of this

[sick yew]

Guess we'll wait and see

[sleek matrix]

The dread where drawn here

[hazy veldt]

I personally have a theory that sword logic that hive follows is not true sword logic but it’s exaggerated version twisted by the witness to make them even more dangerous

[sleek matrix]

But oryx did talk to the winnower

[hazy veldt]

Winnower does not advocate for slaughter of everyone of everyone but it also does not condemn it

Winnower is literally the great filter theory manifested

[sick yew]

I'd be surprised if it was the Winnower tho seems a bit fast to introduce them like that

[sleek matrix]

I don't think it is the winnower

[little gorge]

it's not the winnower

[sick yew]

Well they have a point cause at least in the garden game it was proven right

One pattern would always emerge the sole victor

[little gorge]

oryx explicitly says there's "something carving paths that should belong to the winnower"

[sleek matrix]

[sick yew]

It's almost certainly someone new then

[hazy veldt]

True sword logic implies that one should not break everything around but the universe itself will eventually winnow itself to 1 final shape, some life forms will fall victim to themselves, some to cataclysms like meteors, some killed in the war

[sleek matrix]

This is where im leaning to

[sick yew]

Which means the possibilities are endless

[sleek matrix]

Its more than likely a dormant entity thats been there the whole time

[sick yew]

Witness 2 electric Boogaloos

[hazy veldt]

Winnower is lowkey inevitability of death itself, no matter through what means achieved

Ofc he would be homies with oryx

[sleek matrix]

Both the Gardner and winnower are needed

[sick yew]

It's as much a concept turned entity as the Traveler

[sleek matrix]

If we take one out the balance is messed up

[sick yew]

According to who lmao

[hazy veldt]

i did not say otherwise

[sleek matrix]

Because then it would be chaos

I think bungie is going off star wars vibes with that

[sick yew]

No I mean what moral baseline are you judging this on

According to the Winnower there doesn't need to be a traveler creating new life and vice versa

[hazy veldt]

the new rule that gardener created indeed only prolonged the winnowing of universe but did not change the outcome

[sleek matrix]

Yes but it does so anyway

And in turn the winnower has to do the opposite

[hazy veldt]

If going as far as theorising, traveler is new rule itself

[sleek matrix]

It has to upend that life

Its a game of cat and mouse

[sick yew]

The witness chasing the traveler was cat and mouse
The winnower would not chase after the traveler

[trim grotto]

For what it's worth - and I'm not diving into this discussion too deep - the new rule was described as paracausality

[sleek matrix]

But it created the first knife

It itself didnt need to chase

[hazy veldt]

How did it affect life though

[fresh zephyr]

No octopus monster yet

[sleek matrix]

Xur?

[fresh zephyr]

The tentacles and eyes

[hazy veldt]

If paracasuality is only limited to traveler and things like worms and ahamkaras

Oh and the veil

[sleek matrix]

Xur the first discipline of the winnower

[hazy veldt]

I legit forgot it existed

[sleek matrix]

What about the nine

[trim grotto]

According to the face value take of Unveiling, the battle in the garden ended with the creation of the universes. There was no life before the battle, there were no universes. Paracausality was to be the rule that broke the stalemate, the inevitability that was the perfect Pattern.

[fresh zephyr]

Is it possible Taniks has made a bargain with an Eldritch horror

[trim grotto]

They're causal.

[hazy veldt]

Also we know nothing abt nine’s origin

[sleek matrix]

Keep in mind unveiling is not to be fully trusted

[trim grotto]

We know everything about the Nine's origin

[hazy veldt]

Wat

They just linked up to planets as far as i remember

[fresh zephyr]

I wrote Unveiling

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dust

[hazy veldt]

i believe you

[trim grotto]

They're essentially Boltzmann Brains.

They were the fountains of Achlys, the night before chaos.

But life arose on the worlds at the heart of the Nine, tiny complicated motions of ecosystems and metabolisms and computations. That life left mass-shadows in the wind of the Nine, plucking at them like harp strings. From these trembles of structure the Nine learned to seed enormous resonating waves, thoughts vaster than worlds.

So the Nine awoke. And in time they understood that they were as fragile as they were mighty; for if the life that seeded their thoughts ever passed away, they too would vanish.```

[hazy veldt]

Oh lol

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah aren’t the Nine just spectators

[hazy veldt]

Makes sense why they want to manifest

[fresh zephyr]

But they make stuff happen when they’re bored

Like Ghaul

And Skolas

[trim grotto]

Not entirely. They've influenced events before.

[hazy veldt]

Ghaul to be particular

[trim grotto]

The Nine desperately seek independence. To be free from the bonds of life and gravity, to be manifested, to be embodied.

[fresh zephyr]

What was all that “we do not understand” stuff in Season of the Drifter?

[sleek matrix]

Dark matter tentacles

[fresh zephyr]

I still have no idea what was going on

[sick yew]

Upload them into the Helm
Worked for failsafe it'll surely work for sentient space dust

[sleek matrix]

We cant upload dark matter

[sick yew]

I'll find a way dw

[sleek matrix]

There everywhere

[trim grotto]

Well... basically, their minds are alien. So alien that they literally do not comprehend or think like we do. They tried to create life with the Cocytus Gates, and failed miserably, creating horrid, wheezing flesh tubes that died within seconds or hours.

[hazy veldt]

So they are chaos god/Boltzmann brain hybrid

[fresh zephyr]

Jesus

[sleek matrix]

They were already ancient when the first human beings named themselves. Their flesh was older than stars: the dark dust wind that blows through the galaxy, pinched by the gravity of Sol and its planets, drawn into their cores and exhaled again.

The nine are very very old

[trim grotto]

So in their quest for freedom and independence, they sought the Ahamkara, which failed. Their Wish was twisted into The Red Box. So they sought the Red Legion, which lead to near failure and punishment of one of the Nine. They sought to create life with the Cocytus Gates, which failed.

The Nine remain bound to life and gravity.

[sick yew]

The who gates?

[sleek matrix]

The gates to hell?

[fresh zephyr]

I hope we start getting cutscenes of this stuff

[sleek matrix]

[hazy veldt]

frontiers will be about the nine most likely

[sick yew]

???

[hazy veldt]

So we gonna have some answers

[sleek matrix]

It sounds crazy to try and cutscene this

[hazy veldt]

Curio

[sick yew]

There is like absolutely no evidence to suggest this?

[north heath]

hello #📚lore-discussion so is oryx actually in the gun touch of malice or is it his soul or some shit

[sleek matrix]

It could be anything

[fresh zephyr]

Apollo seems very much a new era

[sleek matrix]

His heart

[fresh zephyr]

There’s that cult concept art

[hazy veldt]

Item we received from quests

[fresh zephyr]

The heart of Akulekan

?

[hazy veldt]

Which have no use yet

[sick yew]

Could very well be related to rite

[hazy veldt]

Maybe

[north heath]

is he alive in it or it’s just his heart

[fresh zephyr]

Maybe Rites of the Nine is just them saying “thanks for everything, goodbye”

[trim grotto]

A piece of him was placed within it. His heart. It is not his soul, nor his spirit.

The plan laid out by Oryx was that we'd embody him and his Throne, we'd become him in spirit and complete the ritual - but we did not. We defied the Logic, and so it is merely his flesh.

[sleek matrix]

Not oryx itself no

[north heath]

cool

thank you #📚lore-discussion i shall not open this chat again

[sleek matrix]

Which was a big mistake

The deep must have a king

[trim grotto]

It's... concerning.

[sick yew]

[trim grotto]

hardly

[sick yew]

Elaborate, lore man

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cocytus

[sleek matrix]

Now we have god knows what down there

It should of been us down there

[fresh zephyr]

It’s obviously the Zorpalods

Even the Witness was concerned about the Zorpalods

[trim grotto]

actually wait

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-dead-orbit

this first

then that

[hazy veldt]

Photos printed?

[fresh zephyr]

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-gate

And finally, this

Ghost Fragment: Dead Orbit, Cocytus, The Gate

In that order

[empty fern]

We finding something out rn?

[hazy veldt]

looks like it

[empty fern]

Whatever’s deep in Europa or Neptune?

[fresh zephyr]

Apollo looks like something frozen

[trim grotto]

Creepy excuses for lifeforms below Europa

Not a fan

[fresh zephyr]

Is there any lore on the Moon spiders?

With the giant webs

[trim grotto]

Actually, no. Not that I'm aware of.

[hazy veldt]

Nah they are limited to the helmet lore

[fresh zephyr]

Nooo😭

[empty fern]

We have multiple spiders? First neptunes helmet exotic and now, moon?

[fresh zephyr]

The fact webs that size exist on the Moon, makes me very happy we haven’t ever gotten spider enemies

[hazy veldt]

i heard only of neptunes

[empty fern]

Also arent most webs on the moon from the hive?

[fresh zephyr]

Webs are formed from spiders

Silk

[empty fern]

Moth

[trim grotto]

As for what lies below the ice of Europa, though...

Now a bristling thing, large as a whale, appears on the ice bore camera we dropped into the ocean below. A dandelion made of soft arms. Bright red and yellow markings indicate if evolved in the shallows, where some light pierces the ice.

The limbs wave slowly to and fro, a motion that is both hunting and breathing. Prey approaches, drawn by plankton that cake on the drifter's skin. With vegetable slowness, its limbs embrace the victim, sting it, and pull it into an open central stomach where thready parasites wait to infest and digest. Everything it does is slow and intestinal. Pulsatory. Brainless.

Sometimes the limbs bicker. Two are dead, fuzzy with rot. They have strangled each other.

It is a colony organism. If threatened, it will discorporate. The limbs will spasm, the core will tear apart in a puff of fluids, and all of those arms will slither away into the dark beneath the ice. Fat worms of terror searching for a hide. The digestive parasites will be expelled as a decoy, left to squirm in panic.

I despise it. I would have it killed, except that I am repulsed by the thought of its final disintegration. I consider how to burn it.```

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/savathun-destiny-2-season-of-the-witch-dies-of-cringe-hive-gif-13308682944884160959

[trim grotto]

anyway now that you've been subjected to horrible parasite colony creature

i sleep

[empty fern]

Giant jellyfish

[fresh zephyr]

What I would give for a single player Destiny game

[empty fern]

Maybe it’s next mobile game

[trim grotto]

Destiny Souls
Elden Destiny

[empty fern]

Elder light

[fresh zephyr]

Guardian Knife

[empty fern]

Splam splife

[sleek matrix]

[hazy veldt]

Zavala kart

[fresh zephyr]

Also how long until the Pale Heart heals

Like 10 years

[hazy veldt]

Unknown

[sleek matrix]

Its not gonna heal

The traveler has fundamentally changed

Its not a good or bad thing

[empty fern]

Hopefully you’ve been healing it, needs more light seeds

[hazy veldt]

Maybe if every lifeform that entered it quits

And we pull off some magic

Then maybe we can seal it

[fresh zephyr]

Can’t we sew it back together

[hazy veldt]

But heal im not sure

[fresh zephyr]

Revive the Witness, convince it to undo the triangle magic

[hazy veldt]

Also pyramids are there

[empty fern]

Thats wild

Oh right

[sleek matrix]

Theres no way to revive the witness

[fresh zephyr]

Never say never

[hazy veldt]

Pyramids are sentient carriers of darkness

[empty fern]

Now that witness is dead
Where are our planets bungie!

[hazy veldt]

We can’t pull them out of pale heart

[sleek matrix]

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness will return

And I will rejoice

[empty fern]

Faith vouches for the bald guy

[hazy veldt]

It can’t return the penitent are literally unmade

There are no brains left

[fresh zephyr]

I love My Witness

[hazy veldt]

The house is empty

[fresh zephyr]

I will form a new Witness

[empty fern]

We brain deaded the witness

If you think about it really hard

The witness is just a really really large vultron

[hazy veldt]

Conceptually

Yes

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness cannot be defeated

The loyal remain

[empty fern]

That one dungeon be like

[hazy veldt]

But all the minds were DEEP in the darkness dimension

[fresh zephyr]

I do miss My Witness, everyday

[hazy veldt]

The thing we fought was sort of a toy car with the remote controller

[empty fern]

Vague
We fought a lot of things

[hazy veldt]

Now car is damaged beyond repair and controller is not there anymore

[fresh zephyr]

The tentacle monster in Heresy was probably friends with the Witness

[hazy veldt]

So no more witness

[slim elk]

We technically are fighting the leftover pieces of the Witness with the Dread

[hazy veldt]

There are many theories that the new taken master is a member of the nine that had enough

[empty fern]

That

That is so random Ngl

[hazy veldt]

There are arguments

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness isn’t dead as long as I remain

[hazy veldt]

in one of the act 2 weapons lore was conversation among the nine, in which there were 8 distinct types of writing

[hazy veldt]

The side arm

As far as i remember

• in new lore we had some quotes from the new taken master where is said that by taken offering him stuff they help them manifest

I’m look up where it was real quick

Also they said “witness the rites” in some instance which can be related to rites of the nine event

[empty fern]

Alex type faster, i dont have all day

[hazy veldt]

He be thinking

[hazy veldt]

Also i REALLY doubt that bungie would choose nine-related event just out of the blue for no reason

[slim elk]

The list of suspects for controlling the Taken is pretty low though. They were doing stuff behind the scenes in the prior episodes

[empty fern]

Bringing back lake of shadows for the funny

Man hes really been typing that type

This has gotta be a MASSIVE paragraph of well understood and hypothesized magnitude

[hazy veldt]

Watch him gift us that 3 words dm

[sick yew]

Okay so did I get all this right?
During the golden age there was a station constructed with experimented with portals and shit
The Awoken set up shop there at some unknown point in time, presumably to see if they can use the tech there or have it be a remote outpost.
Then during the Crota days the hive captured it and did something with the portal technology there.
Later down the timeline a dead orbit scout team finds the station and take it upon themselves to get there but get stranded after an Awoken scout ship cripples their engines and comms and when they explore it they run into something that makes them all go crazy they tend to yell something about an eye.
Even later the Hidden take it upon themselves to observe the portals and discover something (evidently the Nine) try to send particles or more complex creations through the portal without success, possibly to try and materialize themselves.
And even later yet a Cryptarch investigates for herself and decides to go through the portal which I assume was the last time we ever heard of her

[hazy veldt]

ok i was wrong

[empty fern]

Oop
I win, owe me a silver

Little did Alex know, mael be sleeping :3

[sick yew]

He better not drop these insane lore bits and bail

[sick yew]

Oh..

Ffs

[empty fern]

[sick yew]

I mean yeah

For your own good never ask me about Cyberpunk or House of Leaves or I'll make that paragraph look like a headline

[fluid peak]

yeah the cocytus gates have always been this nefarious unresolved lore thread that bungie might at some point pull on

when we only had the trailer for vespers host some people thought we might finally go and see the station

[sick yew]

There's no evident Vesper stations portal is connected to all that ye?

[fluid peak]

its not

its braytech, so its entirely distinct

vesper station is the sister to the one we crashed on europa in DSC and was used in an attempt to merge vex mind tech with our own

[sick yew]

Vesper portal is vex related? I see

Well makes sense cause Braytech Europa and shit

[empty fern]

But were the vex controlling the puppet?

[sick yew]

We never found that out I think

[fluid peak]

good question!

sorry, to be clear, i dont think the portal is vex related

[empty fern]

[fluid peak]

we're not sure what purpose the portal serves, but it was built long after the collapse

[sick yew]

Really?

So Vesper station was initially just an orbital platform?

[fluid peak]

i think it was built by the puppeteer in service of whatever is the puppetmaster

[empty fern]

It’s a station

[fluid peak]

because when you go up there she's knelt praying to it

[empty fern]

Show pic

[fluid peak]

i dont have one :)

but its very easy to verify

[fluid peak]

just went back through the armor lore

the portal is kickstarted by the eliskni the puppeteer takes control of, so it cant be from the original station

[hazy veldt]

It would be really cool if we had insights on vex origin

I know about the pattern

But im talking their homeworld

How they got so advanced

[hollow hinge]

She's not kneeling when you approach

[hollow hinge]

Time travel shenanigans and simulations

[paper gorge]

do we know much of obak hul?

[slim girder]

Nope. Pretty much a new character.

Though i wonder if the "hul" part of their name makes them related to alak hul. Or if that's a title of some kind.

[torpid flint]

Nuh uh

[hazy veldt]

ok so i have a crazy theory about those interior statues in pyramids

[sick yew]

Oh boy

[hazy veldt]

what if those are finalized victims of the witness

you may say that witness could not do this

without beying inside pale heart

[sick yew]

We actually know how the Final Shape looks on people and its different

You see it as early as the opening cutscene of Final Shape

When the Last City briefly gets hit by it

[hazy veldt]

but i have arguments, first of which being tormentors and second one being the mention that precursors could harvest and store the light

[sick yew]

I dont quite follow what either of those two have to do with the statue

[hazy veldt]

2 things, first one being simple design change bc those statues are like 3 years old by now, second one being that travelers light could twist living beings differently

[hazy veldt]

so remember the cutscene with riis in revenant where is looks like it has been finalized

[sick yew]

Which is most likely not canon and merely a stylistic choice yeah

[hazy veldt]

i think that witness actually use leftover light from time of precursors

to pull this off

[hazy veldt]

cant deny cant be sure

[sick yew]

They would still need the veil to inact the final shape

Both are required

[hazy veldt]

witness only lost veil during 1st collapse

[sick yew]

Right confused some details

Hm

Interesting idea I give you that

Where have you heard the "storing light" part specifically

[hazy veldt]

lemme pull it up

they actually created garden worlds

by themselves

literal god race

[sick yew]

Ah it is that loretab

[hazy veldt]

also it explains why majority of them have humanoid forms

[sick yew]

Im sorry to disappoint you but this does not indicate that the Precursors were able to store light

Humanity has teraformed planets during the golden age without the need for light

Thats why Venus is the way it is

And not the way it is in our world

[hazy veldt]

maybe

but how witness created tormentors tho

thats unclear for me

[sick yew]

I dont think Tormentors themselves were created by the Witness, they dont really make new stuff just dissect and rearrange existing things

Tormentors were likely just another civilisation somewhere out there and the Witness took and "modified" them

[hazy veldt]

nezarec species were just enslaved and reshaped

[sick yew]

Indeed

[hazy veldt]

still shady

especially considering that we do not know anything of nezzys origin

i can go as far as say witness created him

[sick yew]

I dont believe so, again the Witness dont really create new stuff from nothing

Just look over at the Dread

They aint "new" the Witness just started meddling and reshaping shit until that came out

[hazy veldt]

i swear to god left one looks like bunch of horses

they dont sell shit like this in ikea

101% would put in my living room

[eager trout]

Wait, who dat?

[sick yew]

Whether these statues were carved out of stone or actually show the various races the Witness has previously conquered is unknown tho I personally feel the latter

[sick yew]

A nameless precoursor

[hazy veldt]

also after re-reading it

"I remember painting on planetary scale", in a far-away system

"I remember carving statues and guiding vines across trellises"

idk about yall but for me it looks like the writer did that

[sick yew]

?

Wdym

That this precoursor is supposed to represent the Bungie writers?

[hazy veldt]

nah i mean precoursor did the terraforming

emphasizing on I

[sick yew]

I think youre reading a bit too much into it

[hazy veldt]

maybe

[sick yew]

The emphasis on I is because thats like the whole point of the entry

Me not We

Individual not collective

And again we dont know terribly much of precoursor technology but I would say that if Humanity was able to terraform a barren rock into a rich and thriving ecosystem (Venus) then the Precoursors could probably do that tenfold

Plus, again this is a rather cryptic loretab
Things might be meant more metaphorically than literally

[hazy veldt]

i mean considering the unfathomable power of precursors

some of this crazy shit actually may be true

[sick yew]

Its unlikely we'll ever get an answer I doubt Bungie will give much more insight on the Witness and precoursors

[hazy veldt]

like this right here

[sick yew]

But if they do I pray they let us visit their homeworld

[hazy veldt]

if it still exists which i strongly doubt

[sick yew]

Why shouldnt it?

[hazy veldt]

its been like

[sick yew]

There was no war there or any other fighting

[sick yew]

Untold eons but that doesnt have to mean much

[hazy veldt]

5 billion+ years

[sick yew]

Theres no reason to try and assign a number

[hazy veldt]

at minimum

[hazy veldt]

there actually is

we know that dreadnaught is older than earth hence it is already 4.4 billion + years old

add to that, witness created hive

[sick yew]

But before the "creation" of the hive there is a completely undefined amount of time to the age of the Precoursors

It could be 4.5 billion years or it could be a number so large it loses all meaning

[hazy veldt]

exactly, thats why i said minimum*

[sick yew]

Im arguing semantics here but its a timeframe intentionally left blank which imo means its so large theres no reason to try and define it

[hazy veldt]

i mean yeah at some point it gets so old that numbers cease to mean anything

[sick yew]

5 billion years is already so large that I has little meaning

Destiny does this quite a lot where it simply leaves "blank" timeframes inbetween events

Makes it easy to put additional lore in there

Avoids them writing themselves into corners

Hell we dont even know how long its been since the Collapse to now

We can put markers onto that timeframe due to established events but there difference between those is often outright unknown

[hazy veldt]

wait wasnt it like 1 thousand ish years or smth

[sick yew]

General estimations work with roughly 800-1000 years yes

[hazy veldt]

i thought we actually had the number

[sick yew]

Any numbers given can easily be called into question

Failsafe for example once gave 800 years I think but in that time Nessus was periodically removed from the system via Vex action so the actual time could be way longer or way shorter

[hazy veldt]

i just realized i dont know shit about nessus

apart from it having MAGNIFICENT ambience

[sick yew]

Agreed

Nessus is a Centaur orbiting Saturn

The Exodus Black crashed there when it tried to escape the collapse at which point the Vex had already appeared there, they then plunged the centaur into one of their own weird ass dimensional pockets during which the entire crew eventually died or were converted by the Vex, only Failsafe remained

The Vex also converted I believe 99%-ish (Number given by Failsafe during red war) of the rest of the Centaur into well Vex stuff

[hazy veldt]

all this architecture never to be explored

[hazy veldt]

so its like mercury but green and red

[sick yew]

It later emerged back from this pocket and wouldnt really become relevant until D2 Red War as Cayde crashed his ship there when trying to escape earth

[hazy veldt]

(ik that mercury housed a simulation engine so its inherently different)

[sick yew]

Correct, Nessus does not house such technology its mostly just another of the countless Vex worlds acting as whatever they need it to be

[sick yew]

From then it remained mostly irrelevant minus the occasional strike until good old Calus appeared in the system and decided to park the Leviathan in its close vicinity

[hazy veldt]

and swallowed big ass vex mind on accident

[sick yew]

That would become crucial when, while in the process of slowly absorbing the Centaur as fuel the Leviathan accidentally consumed Argoes the planetary core mind of the planet

That clogged up its internal "engine" which put the whole ship at risk so calus called us up to deal with it

Afterwards Nesus fell back into mostly irrelevancy used sparingly in various Vex related shit

Fast forward to Season of Chosen where it became one of the more crucial places during Empress Caiatls attempt to form a War Council as she deployed one of her imperial land tanks there

On it we, acting as Zavalas chosen warriors would battle Caiatls respective champion during the rite of proving

[hazy veldt]

actually when i think about it, from winnowers perspective vex are even cooler than hive

[sick yew]

Obviously

There are hints that the Vex are essentially the pattern that continously won the garden game

[hazy veldt]

he doesnt even need to talk them into anything

they do all stuff themselves

[sick yew]

So they are in essence the closest thing speaking for the Winnowers ideals

Oh yeah one part I neglected, Nessus is often important for Psions who are trying to exploit vex prediction engines to forsee potential futures

Theyve been trying that stuff eversince Red War really but in season of Chosen it was also a thing

[hazy veldt]

vex are so uninteresting its actually crazy

living by desire to only prolong existence and expansion of their species

such a boring concept but they do succeed

[sick yew]

I personally disagree, Vex are imo the scariest thing in all of Destiny becaue of their overall concept
The issue is that the way the Vex are they are super hard if downright impossible to properly write into the ingame narrative as youd have to humanize them for that which goes against their concept

And once you do look a bit closer the Vex are pretty interesting too as far as factions go but they are also very cryptic in nature

[hazy veldt]

true, but for me they are as scary as they are boring

again i acknowledge the perfect pattern thing

but it almost feels like they have no motive

expand transform survive literally their doctrine

[sick yew]

I note that Vex milk, while computationally powerful, seems to avoid semiosis. That is, it prefers to mimic the actual dynamics of phenomena rather than assigning a symbol. This is a fundamental difference between Vex cognition and our own. We encode inputs as symbols, manipulate the symbols according to some set of logical rules, and produce output. The Vex are more direct. Burn them, and they will extinguish the fire—not because they possess a symbolic knowledge of fire and its properties, but because their internal structure is so suited to adaptation and survival that the heat of the fire directly becomes the response required to snuff it out. Rather than encoding symbols, they generate self-sustaining and self-correcting patterns, which like the suspension bridge flexing under strain, can accept destructive input and produce reparatory output.

From Clovis Brays journal on how radiolaria behaves

Shit like that is just really cool to me and goes to show how rich Destiny lore really is even at its fundamental concepts

[hazy veldt]

vex endgame is just them being last thing that exists in the universe

[sick yew]

In general if you havent already I suggest you give Clovis Bray's journal a read
Its pretty cool

[sick yew]

Correct

Everything that exist needs to be Vex

[hazy veldt]

and considering that those mfs can build engines capable of simulating trillions on imaginary realities, they can fucking TIME TRAVEL, have oracles that are pretty much god level calculators, and literally take job of simulation engine on their own

and still lose to bunch of undying greedy idiots

[sick yew]

They can also use dying suns to create matter funfact

[hazy veldt]

id say vex are shit at their job

[hazy veldt]

its not much of a feat after time travel being mentioned

[sick yew]

Well its a bit unfair because we are essentially to them what division by 0 is to a calculator

Paracausality is rough even for the most advanced supercomputers

[hazy veldt]

as soon as they figure out paracausality everything and everyone is doomed

pretty much

[sick yew]

They sorta did once? Kinda not really

[hazy veldt]

sanctified?

i mean he got close but not really

[sick yew]

The Saint-14 case

[hazy veldt]

ah they figured out how to siphon light

[sick yew]

Suppress it

[hazy veldt]

yeah mb

[sick yew]

And it took them thousands of years

For just one single guardian

They had to dedicate an entire mind to that shit

[hazy veldt]

also please help me understand the black heart thing

like

ik that it was created as a dollar store veil

[sick yew]

Well it mainly suppressed the travelers healing but yes it is a paracausal "thing"

Witness was planning some shit with it

[hazy veldt]

but i remember that sol devicive or however its spelled became itself only after discovering paracausality in the garden

so how did they create something that already existed in the garden

im so confused

[sick yew]

Correct, the Sol Divisive were just a subtype of the larger Vex collective acting like any other sub-faction

But then they encountered the black heart a paracausal thing meaning they essentially went "oh shit this thing breaks any and all understanding of ours"

And they came to the conclusion that they should worship this thing they dont understand

Which was different from the conclusion the rest of the collective came to so they essentially split off from them

[hazy veldt]

so the paracausal thing was garden itself

[sick yew]

It was the Black heart

The Garden while potentially significant is inherently paracausal (tho it does show signs of it)

The rapid growth of life to be specific tho that is not related to the black heart

[hazy veldt]

huh

pale heart

im so lost

[sick yew]

Black heart

Mb

[hazy veldt]

but again

if it was black heart

and we know that vex created it

how come they crated something that was already there

[sick yew]

Where did you get it from that the Vex created it?

[hazy veldt]

it was mentioned in one of lightfall missions

rohan saw the process

[sick yew]

Oh the thing with the lmg

[hazy veldt]

and we even hunted the vex mind that did it

[sick yew]

Okay im not entirely familiar with that part but with the Witness essentially having control over what the Sol Divisive do it could have just given them the instruction to construct it

[hazy veldt]

its so fucking puzzling dear god

[sick yew]

Imagine if god, inherently defying any and all physical laws that we believe on shows up on earth and says yo guys build that thing for me, heres how

You dont need to understand how it works just how to do it

Most of humanity says "fuck this shit man I aint meddling with what I cant comprehend" but a small portion of humanity says "right to work boss even tho I also dont have the slightest clue how you are even possible"

Thats how I imagine it went down

[hazy veldt]

also as far as i remember, in d1 black garden was meant to be the proto garden but then they retconned it and now we know that proto-garden was not even point in space, it existed before space did, but if thats the case what is black garden, why it assimilates everything it touches

[sick yew]

What exactly the black garden is we dont know

[hazy veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-explode-gif-25528415

[sick yew]

There are various hints pointing towards it having some kind of significance in the entire Gardener and Winnower stick

The leading theory goes that the big "stump" where we fight the Sanctified mind was once a tree of silver wings, massive one at that

[hazy veldt]

and what did the fucking stump do there if it aint the proto-garden😭 😭

[sick yew]

We dont know yet, it might be a physical manifestation of the proto-garden that came to be in the wake of the Gardener "creating" the universe by modifying the game

It would at least explain some of the gardens "quirks" like the very rapid growth of nature there

[hazy veldt]

i mean i can make an assumption that this is kind of physical echo of protogarden created by primordeal clash of light and dark, a kin to what we see in pale heart except this one is in real space

[sick yew]

Possibly, again thats one of those things we simply dont know (yet?)

I personally like this theory but we gotta see where bungie takes it all

[hazy veldt]

i wanna make a list of un-elaborated topics by bungie

[sick yew]

if they want to elaborate on it at all

[sick yew]

(Screenshot courtesy of myself)

[torpid flint]

To be fair, we did finally get elaboration on the exo stranger. It just took an entirely separate game after 2 major dlcs

So maybe in bungie's next IP they'll elaborate on it lol

[hazy veldt]

depends on what you call elaboration

elsie was going back in time

by unknown force

it created even more questions

[torpid flint]

Elaboration can be just adding context to a story. Like paracausality, while not fully explained, is still able to be understood

[hazy veldt]

nah its like

"-whats behind that door?"

"well theres a room certainly."

thats it

[torpid flint]

To be fair, that is a good portion of D2 lore

[sick yew]

I doubt theyll ever explain the time travel shit

Itll just stay uncertain forever

[hazy veldt]

exactly

almost cliche

[sick yew]

I dont mind things not being fully explained, gives room for personal interpretation

[torpid flint]

Like elaboration means certainty. Like, when there's some books that say "THROUGH UNKNOWN MEANS, THEY BROUGHT DOWN THE DESTORYER OF THE UNIVERSE WITH 2 PEOPLE"

Like

Okay

What exactly did they do?

That's the style of elaboration I was going for

[torpid flint]

Of course, but when said personal interpretation requires a focus group to make sense of the story, that's too far

[sick yew]

In the Elsie case whether we know what exactly send her back in time doesnt really change much

Fact is thats what happened

And they build her personal story from there

[hazy veldt]

force that returned her - unknown
motives of this force - unknown
why elsie - unknown

division 1 elaboration right here

[torpid flint]

I'm fine with that example... because it just fits neatly into the story imo. Purely important stuff, like, what is the black garden. Bit more important, and less okay with that

[sick yew]

That I agree with