📚lore-discussion

[versed orbit]

grip clip

[chrome fog]

[hollow hinge]

Continuing a conversation from a different channel

About the infestation within the traveler

I know pretty much everywhere there's still rot to be dealt with but for example the Monolith, that's been cleared out at least for the most part, right?

[polar knoll]

Saint-14 died on the 8th of March 2025

[sick yew]

[chrome fog]

🫡

[next bobcat]

Some of these I do not understand

What’s the banshee symbol?

[sick yew]

Banshee also made some of the weapons we use

Ace for example (and the blue hc with the same model)

[next bobcat]

Oh so just random stuff

[sick yew]

Well they have their own theme too

[next bobcat]

N and the bird skull?

[sick yew]

N is Nadir

[next bobcat]

Ok cool

[sick yew]

This fusion you might recognize

Its one of their guns

[next bobcat]

The fusion that’s everywhere

[sick yew]

Thats Crux, they mostly made rocket launchers such as ghorn

Wait no I lie

The bird skull isnt Crux

Hangon

[next bobcat]

Field forged?

[sick yew]

Wait no the bird is Crux/Lomar

[next bobcat]

Then what’s field forged?

[sick yew]

Field forged is uuuuh

Mael mentioned it

[sick yew]

bird skull is Cassoid who made Erianas Vow for example

[next bobcat]

Cassoid’s already there

Right next to it

[sick yew]

Wait I fucked it up twice now

[next bobcat]

Just replying here so i don’t have to scroll up when referencing it

[sick yew]

Man I hate the icons that dont have the letter in it

Crux/Lomar is the bird skull

Jesus

Crux/Lomar made Truth, Ghorn

And a few other rockets from over the years

[next bobcat]

Do we have any legenadary cruxes?

[sick yew]

Not that I could find no

Its confusing cause theres a legendary rocket named Crux Termination IV

But its a Cassiod weapon

[next bobcat]

Yeah lol

[sick yew]

Also Daito having two different symbols always throws me off

This is Daito aswell

(its usually rotated 45 degrees)

[next bobcat]

Ok so in my opinion these are ranked in tiers of prevalence
1 - Hakke, Suros, Omolon, field-forged
2 - Veist, Tex Mechanica, Daito
3 - Nadir, Cassoid
4 - Banshee, Crux Lomar, Black Armory

[sick yew]

Oh boy

Black Armory on 4?

Tex on 2?

Damn bro

[next bobcat]

Not my personal ranking but based on how much they show up

[sick yew]

Oh thats boring

Rank em on how much you like them

[next bobcat]

You see tons of attention to the first 4, a decent amount to the second ones, etc.

[sick yew]

Yeah butt thats boooooring my guy

How much do you like em

[next bobcat]

Ok fine

Listing them here in no particular order first of all
Häkke
Tex Mechanica
Nadir
Crux Lomar
Cassoid
Banshee
Suros
Veist
Omolon
Black Armory

[sick yew]

You really got it in for the Black Armory huh

What did Ada do to you

[next bobcat]

Read

Read the message

[sick yew]

.....

So you just listed a bunch of Foundries

[next bobcat]

Yeah so I can reference it

I couldn’t find a tier list anywhere

How’s you do it?

[sick yew]

I just went on tiermaker and made my own rq

Its a bit annoying to import all the icons

[next bobcat]

Oh damn good idea

[sick yew]

You can just make em

[next bobcat]

Lemme cook

[sick yew]

Go right ahead

[next bobcat]

Idk all I know is that häkke is the best and tex is great

[sick yew]

Tf is that on B last

Iron Banner?

[next bobcat]

Field forged

[sick yew]

Ah

[sick yew]

Häkke my beloved (German supremacy)
And Tex my yeehaw

[next bobcat]

Honestly I don’t consider daito, black Armory, banshee & crux full weapon foundries

[sick yew]

Fair their selection is considerably smaller

[next bobcat]

They need to have banners, legendary weapons, and origin traits

Crux will never be a full weapon foundry as they can’t make that many rockets

[sick yew]

We could start including other manufacturers like the various Seraph weapons and shit

But eeeh

[next bobcat]

Although they may make rocket sidearms/rocket breach GLs

[next bobcat]

Yeah ikelos is… idk

[sick yew]

Ikelos and Seraph weapons*

The seraph guns slap

[next bobcat]

I don’t specifically dislike any weapon foundries

[sick yew]

I always loved their design

[next bobcat]

I want this to be a great gun

But it’s not

[sick yew]

So do I bro

So do I

Bring back Warmind Cells

[next bobcat]

Yesss

And if not, improve the bouncy rounds thing and make it the origin trait

[sick yew]

Not directly Rasputin but the specific Crypt weapons are insane too, possibly my favorite designs in the game

[next bobcat]

If only I could find a competent crypt lfg

[sick yew]

Crypt is pretty much a selfrunner atp

[next bobcat]

[sick yew]

Its my most cleared raid with almost 80

[next bobcat]

Strange

Loots fuckin sick but I can’t get it

[sick yew]

Rip

[next bobcat]

Sucks to suck I guess

[eager trout]

What is Ikelos?

[jagged badge]

A program of Rasputin’s to develop weaponry to outfit Guardians with iirc

[eager trout]

Ok, thanks

[empty fern]

Guns

[eager trout]

Why does Felwinter's Helm have a Ghost?

[trim grotto]

The lore tab itself explains that.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/felwinters-helm

Vaguely, but nonetheless.

[eager trout]

Was that his own Ghost, or...?

[trim grotto]

This is also explained by the lore tab.

[eager trout]

It just says that his Ghost floated beside him

I'm guessing no, then

[trim grotto]

Felwinter turned back around. "Warlord's Ghost," he said.```

[eager trout]

Oh, a Warlord's Ghost

I'm assuming he didn't mean Warlord as in himself

[trim grotto]

Correct, as he is not one.

He is an Iron Lord.

*anymore, i see you typing there retro

[slim girder]

Just typing something I thought about since warlords are being spoken about.
I wonder if there could be any room for "bad guardians" in the current state of destiny. Yes things like the shadows of yor exist and figures like jana 14 but I wonder if any guardians out there have ever defected from the city.

[ember storm]

Was and also wasn’t at the time

[slim girder]

The city doesn't have a central government and the vanguard seems to be the only body that governs the city.
Guardians possess the most power out of everyone in that area so I think it could be possible for some guardians to decide to use that power for bad.

Not to say we'd get a whole episode or season on it but some lore about it would be cool

[eager trout]

New season where we fight corruption

[slim girder]

I don't think it'd be hard to believe that some guardians would defect in some capacity. Maybe they grow sick of taking orders or see something that makes them question their loyalty

Plenty of influences out there in the universe

[ember storm]

I mean it’s not like they’ve ever been forced to do anything

[slim girder]

Crow was originally held hostage by spider via glint having a bomb strapped to him. And there's been plenty of guardians who involve themselves in shady doings. But we haven't really seen a "bad guardian" since dredgen yor or the dark ages

Jana 14 would be the closest and the equivalent of a serial killer

[ember storm]

Guardians being forced into serving the vanguard I mean

Someone doing bad things while claiming themselves to be a guardian would be someone like Shayura

[dim minnow]

well let's see, there's Gaelin-4 who was a Guardian who preferred to work for Spider

there's Katabasis who was a Guardian who was loyal to Calus (though he had second thoughts during the Glykon incident [sadly it was too late for him at that point])

[torpid flint]

Speaking of Shayura. Where's the lore card on what happened after she was basically given therapy?

[trim grotto]

She was released into custody of her old fireteam, Aisha and Reed-7. They were the ships flanking Amanda during the Lightfall battle, and Reed-7 and his Ghost were the ones who got...

cleaved.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/valiant-memory

Shayura has still been going to therapy, and along with Aisha, has grieved Reed-7. She's met up with Sloane as old friends, and is partaking in duties once more.

[ember storm]

He got salamiid

[eager trout]

Wait, he was serving Calus? From his log entries it sounded more like he had infiltrated the Glykon.

[jagged badge]

The first of his log entries directly talks about him interacting with Calus personally

[eager trout]

Huh, it didn't sound like that to me

[jagged badge]

I can only imagine that you’re interpreting the later entries as him having infiltrated the ship because he’s presumably crawling around evading the Scorn that had infested the ship

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/entry-1-charons-silhouette#book-captains-log

[eager trout]

I don't remember what the first entry says other than something about Calus drinking

[jagged badge]

One of the very first lines there directly states he was invited

I'm not sure what he wants to hear. "She's an impressive beast. I've come to take the job." I turn it like an offer.

Uncomfortable silence.

"Come and see me, Katabasis. I have a gift for you."```

Also this exchange

[eager trout]

I haven't seen that

[jagged badge]

It’s all right here in the first entry of those logs

[eager trout]

Wait, I didn't mean those entries

I meant the audio you get throughout the mission

(Presage)

[jagged badge]

Ohhh

Then your interpretation makes sense without this context

By the point of the actual audio logs, Katabasis is freaked out by the experiments and wants to turn tail and tell the Vanguard instead of being further affiliated with Calus

And then the anomaly shit happens and he’s trapped on the ship with all the Scorn and Egregore infesting it

[ember storm]

his body is still there btw

[chrome fog]

Just steal his gun and leave his body, it’s hilarious

[sick yew]

Now that I think of it
Have there been any records of a guardian graveyard in the city?

Like what did they do with Cayde's body back in Forsaken

We know there's was a funeral but is there just a graveyard in the city for lightbearers

Oh right there's also our coffin from that parallel timeline from which we got Bastion

[eager trout]

I realized something about the Veil

It's technically doing the same as the Winnower

Nothing

The Winnower is waiting because it knows it will win

And the Veil also does nothing

[sick yew]

It sure killed a lot of people for doing "nothing "

[eager trout]

That wasn't on purpose

It was just an effect of its presence

I mean that it didn't take conscious action

[sleek matrix]

The witness was the first knife for the winnower

Winnower has some influence it just wasn't known for the longest time

[eager trout]

That's what it says

[chrome fog]

Do you blame an MRI machine for ripping metal out of a patient if they don’t disclose it? About the closest allegory we can approximate to what the Veil did to Exos

[ember storm]

Didn’t it tell Maya to do the conductor thing or something

[chrome fog]

It was mostly vague, the only concrete thing that can be said is that once Maya started thoroughly researching the Veil she started demonstrated similar idiosyncrasies to Clovis

Whether that was the Veil, if that was inherent to Maya, or the connection to the Darkness allowing the Winnower to influence Maya, we don’t know

Just a shift in personality post-discovery of the Veil

[desert tree]

question: is there a name for the area of space where Oryx and Mara's armies fought? I know it was around Jupiter but Idk the specifics

[jagged badge]

It was around Saturn

It was actually in Saturn’s rings

[desert tree]

...how tf did I get Jupiter and Saturn mixed up

[next bobcat]

Big planets

[desert tree]

I mean, yea but you learn the difference between each planet in elementary school

[next bobcat]

Yeah. It’s ok to be confused sometimes

Speaking of planets, do we know where fundament is?

Or what state it’s in?

[chrome fog]

The proto-hive homeworld? No fucking clue, and no fucking clue

They’ve been doing their thing of conquering and destroying planetary civilizations and cultures for more than a couple hundred millennia

I’m personally unsure how this fits but I’m sure it’s related, they’re ancient enough that Crota was able to emtomb himself and his brood within the Moon and left undiscovered until, I believe, the Collapse

[trim grotto]

I would consider the fact that there's an argument that the Hive are billions of years old
The time and distance are incomprehensible

Fundament was too long ago, and we have no idea where it would have been

[eager trout]

What if it's called Fundament because it was the first planet?

[trim grotto]

It wasn't.

[eager trout]

Then which was?

[trim grotto]

There is absolutely no way we could ever know that
But remember that the Witness's people preluded the Hive

[eager trout]

Oh

[desert tree]

question: is Mercury (I believe this is where Curse of Osiris took place, so correct me if im wrong) still "reachable" by the Vanguard? we lost the play space when the Witness entered the system, but I don't know if we got it back and we just don't have a reason to go there outside of Sain't lighthouse

[trim grotto]

The Lighthouse is a simulation.

Mercury has been missing since it left in Arrivals/Beyond Light

[desert tree]

shite

[torpid flint]

It was probably abandoned once they got big enough. It doesn't really serve a purpose considering the worm gods don't live there anymore

[trim grotto]

Yes, most likely.

[next bobcat]

Is there any connection to savathun’s 2 truths and a lie, the planets encounter of RoN, and the disappearance of planets?

[trim grotto]

We have absolutely no idea why Titan returned, though the prevailing theory is that Macrocosm was involved.

Mars was returned by Savathûn

And the Pyramids took the planets in the first place

[next bobcat]

Sure, ok. Heresy and the return of oryx (mostly) would prove one of savathun’s statements as true

Do we understand them all yet?

[trim grotto]

I would argue that Ghosts of the Deep already did that. While we foiled the plot, they clearly intended Oryx to return that way.

[next bobcat]

Yeah ok - so if oryx’s body is still in titan’s seas, could the echo dive down and inhabit oryx’s body?

[trim grotto]

It isn't.

[next bobcat]

Or would it be ineffective? I’m guessing most of oryx’s power was from his influence and paracausality

[trim grotto]

I don't think we could truly say if it could do this or not. It's a moot point though, as the Hidden have sequestered the body.

[desert tree]

question: whats the limit on how old a body can be before a ghost just isn't able to revitalize them into a guardian?

[next bobcat]

I heard something about an ancient Egyptian guy rezzed

Idk probably infinite?

[trim grotto]

The age is not a factor, but the condition of the body is. There was a Guardian risen from a period about 13,000 years ago.

[next bobcat]

Could you rez the top half of a guardian only

Legless lightbearer

[trim grotto]

I doubt it would work like that haha

[trim grotto]

I would say so, largely

[desert tree]

define condition of the body pls
where in terms of "damaged" does a body become un-rezable

[trim grotto]

Atomised or with a level of DNA degradation. The actual specifics are not clear.

For example

[u:02] All right, let's see about you…
[u:03] Hoo boy. Another one.
[u:04] DNA degradation alone makes this impossible, but even if I could bring you back, who'd put you back together again?
[u:05] Inextirpable psychological trauma. Indelible psychosis: violence, paranoia, obsessive behavior. And… yup, some kind of hallucinatory mechanism. Damage to the occipital lobe and limbic, and then those weird formations in the parietal and temporal. It's like something rewired your brain but did it through your DNA.```

[next bobcat]

Interesting

[desert tree]

huh

[next bobcat]

How do you do those quote things?

[trim grotto]

Or

The Cabal mining rig was set to scorch the earth and then churn the soil to get at whatever they were after underneath.

Problem was… my Guardian—the one I'd spent a very long time looking for—was lying dormant in their path: a lifeless husk in need of a wake-up call before her remains were atomized and I was left, for eternity, without my chosen.```

[desert tree]

thats interesting

[trim grotto]

Three of ` either side

Or just one either side so you can do this mid sentence

[next bobcat]

‘Like this?’

[trim grotto]

Grave key

[next bobcat]

Yeah I don’t think that’s on mobile

[desert tree]

grave key?

[trim grotto]

It is, but hidden deeper in the extra symbols

[trim grotto]

Yes
`

Next to the 1 on a keyboard

[desert tree]

ooooooh

`

found it

[next bobcat]

That’s my autoclicker hotkey lmao

Guess I’ll rebind

[desert tree]

oh thats cool

[trim grotto]

Anyway where was I
Okay so
False, true, true, false

The Enigma was pointless, the Final Shape is essentially frozen stillness, the Last City obviously wasn't last, and Mars was largely irrelevant bar a small excursion of Red Legion for Vox Obscura

False, false, true, true
The Pyramids stole the planets, Savathûn returned Mars. The next one is interesting, but we now control some Taken power - the power which was used to move the worlds - and there was the Macrocosm encounter. I'm going true by default plus these arguments. Finally, true. Ignoring Heresy, it was clear the Lucent Brood tried to resurrect Oryx, even if we did foil the plan.

False, true, false, true. Osiris wasn't dead. Savathûn was, at least at the time - it wasn't a final death, but she was dead. The Witness did not birth the Darkness, and that means our destiny lying beyond this system is true by default.

And finally

[next bobcat]

Also frontiers kinda adds to that

Being far away n such

[trim grotto]

False, true, false, true, or, it could be true true false false. The Traveler always told humanity it would leave one day - but it didn't leave during the final confrontation, despite the grave wound it suffered. Literally nothing ever has suggested a second Traveler exists, and it's possible that a new species will be granted the Light one day.

This one is the most unclear because 3 of these could be up in the air

But it's also the least impactful of the four

[next bobcat]

I’d really like to see lightbearer vex. It’d be scary and really unlikely, but really cool.

[sick yew]

Honest question, can we even trust these?

How could Savathun possibly know 1,2 and 4?

[trim grotto]

She's studied it for longer than we knew it existed. But, we don't know if it can be trusted, really.

[sick yew]

From when are these?

Pre or post resurrection

Nvm post

[trim grotto]

WQ, post campaign
Post resurrection

[sick yew]

Cause she mentions hive

[sick yew]

I am still willing to call it bullshit

[blazing wasp]

Savathun is actually just really good at guessing

[sick yew]

Less truths more assumptions if any

[eager trout]

I'd say it's most likely for the Eliksni to be granted the Light

[sick yew]

Eh

I think they should give me Light² instead

[blazing wasp]

i wonder, would energy guns in destiny universe not be that loud?

[dapper moss]

they are still guns

[blazing wasp]

real guns can be deafening if used indoors without protection, kinetic guns may still be the same

but not all energy guns are explosions propelling stuff forward

[blazing wasp]

well yes but do we know what causes something like gnawing hunger to propel the bullets?

[dapper moss]

seeing as they still have a muzzle flash, they are probably still loud enough to hurt your ears

[blazing wasp]

omolon doesnt appear to use explosives

[blazing wasp]

well that would add up if it just used something like gunpowder to propell the bullets

but omolon sure as shit dont use gunpowder

the gel cant be explosive, or the entire thing would detonate including the propelled bullet before it hit anything

[dapper moss]

seeing as whatever they use to propel the bullets needs to be high enough in energy to not only propel the projectiles as fast if not infinitely faster than the gunpowder can, that energy would directly equate to a possibly even louder sound

[eager trout]

This has to be in the loretab of an Omolon prototype

[eager trout]

Magnetism

[blazing wasp]

while normally, yes absolutely

but d2 is post golden age humanity

and we got fukcing magic

[dapper moss]

i mean we are explicitly told that the weapons are powered by the energy type they are

some of the loudest sounds in the d2 universe were created using light energy/magic

[eager trout]

So Solar weapons: basically just normal guns without gunpowder

Arc weapons: magnetism

Void weapons: literally bends space to shoot

[dapper moss]

the way i imagine it, most weapons have the bullets themselves infused with energy and then are fired in the normal way weapons work

[blazing wasp]

we know very well some cant

[dapper moss]

like rocket launchers are all still shot in the same way a normal rocket launcher is but the rocket itself is filled with solar/arc/void/strand/stasis energy

[blazing wasp]

like, by looking at the weapon design

the bullet has to curve around the gun

in impossibly steep angles for the velocity

[dapper moss]

for omolon weapons, i think they're an exception

i believe the fluid itself is the ammunition, like a juiced up paintball

[ember storm]

Majority of energy weapons still have normal magazines with shell casings

The only ones that explicitly never do are fusions

And omolon as a weapon foundry yeah

[dapper moss]

and thats bc fusions are the typical sci-fi "energy weapon"

that uses batteries

or power cells

[blazing wasp]

we do also infuse our weapons with our light, which can cause some shenanigans

[dapper moss]

thats exactly why i believe it's the ammunition itself that's infused with light, not the entire weapon mechanism built around it

[ember storm]

It’s just the distinction between pure energy being shot (ie fallen wire rifles) or ammunition with elemental payloads (cabal slug launchers)

[dapper moss]

yeah like trace rifles

don't shoot any physical payload

but they use some kind of energy ammunition to create the beam

[blazing wasp]

would vex be an exception?

[dapper moss]

probably not since it uses vex technology which is overwhelmingly not based in physical ammunition

[blazing wasp]

bastion most certainly is

[dapper moss]

well it is a kinetic weapon

so it's more like a burst shotgun that just gets classified as a fusion because of how it mechanically functions

[blazing wasp]

could very well use some battery of sorts for the mechanism

but the payload

very much bullets

[dapper moss]

i believe bastion to be similar to like

[blazing wasp]

legend of acirus' shells do kinda look like fuses, i wonder if that one's any different

[chrome fog]

Could one argue for the third one that it’s not necessarily another Traveler, but another being/entity that’s a source of paracausal power, thus pointing towards the Veil’s existence?

[sleek matrix]

Traveler is not the only one of its kind

Wouldn't that be a hint towards veil

[chrome fog]

If you were to broaden the definition of “It’s kind” in regards to the Traveler, then yes you could include the Veil; but specifically another Traveler going around spreading Light and being a literal copy of the Traveler, unlikely

It’s an arguable point

[sleek matrix]

Should of been there is not another traveler out there

But i think I remember seeing something there might have been a few travelers

But not anymore

[raw hazel]

there is only the one

[fresh zephyr]

Aztecross said we might get 3 Travelers in Apollo

Huge if true

[eager trout]

His source?

[ember storm]

Me

[eager trout]

Is there an explanation for why Teslesto can do...whatever it is it does in the new catalyst?

[jagged badge]

No

[trim grotto]

I... See your point, but that feels like a significant stretch in my eyes.

[trim grotto]

Nothing has ever suggested this, neither the eons old Books of Sorrow nor any of the knowledge from the people of the Witness.

Except for this truth or lie from Savvy, that is.

[eager trout]

How do Hive reproduce?

[sick yew]

egg

Thats all we know I think

[eager trout]

Astounding

How do the Eliksni never run out of soldiers?

[sick yew]

The power of gameplay

Lore wise I dont think there are many capable eliksni forces left, mostly just the remnants of the house of dusk or just small crews of pirates

[empty fern]

Retconned hive

[chrome fog]

I mean those could be egg

Egg can be sac on wall

[empty fern]

(But they were removed later, and in shadowlesp)

[chrome fog]

Could be that we eliminated them all cause we kept going down into there

[empty fern]

Ehhh,

I don’t think there’s any entry on any of them afaik

[ember storm]

Could be the things used to dig the tunnels

[empty fern]

Maybe

[hazy veldt]

what significance does nessus hold except being vex bastion

[sick yew]

Failsafe

And well eversince Episode 1 it has a unique group of Vex that are disconnected from the main collective, essentially individuals

Also it has Failsafe

[hazy veldt]

i mean failsafe can be relocated she is an ai after all

[sick yew]

Eeeeeh

[hazy veldt]

ik she is part of exodus black

[sick yew]

Its not as easy as just putting her on an USB stick and taking that somewhere else

[hollow hinge]

She was built into the ship for years

Possibly decades even

[hazy veldt]

ye ik, but still, in other cases (except mercury) planets can be eventually re-colonized

[sick yew]

Realistically it was probably possible to extract Failsafe and bring her somewhere else but 1. shes a destination vendor so theres the gameplay aspect
And 2 its probably still very complicated

[hazy veldt]

mind u, she was absolutely forgotten for 3 years or smth

[sick yew]

Bungie might have
But not me

I always remember my favorite ai

2nd favorite Ai

Rasputin still has a special place

[hollow hinge]

Failsafe:

[slim girder]

Unfortunately bungie updating the live game to suit the lore would literally mean removing things for every player based on progress.
Like imagine if for the whole episode we couldn't talk to eris on the moon or drifter actually disappeared.
Same goes for failsafe even though she's more integrated into the helm.

[hazy veldt]

moon purpose kind of unclear too

basically uninhbitable rock of doom

[sick yew]

I mean its got a shit ton of hive that if not kept in check will start doing some shit

[hollow hinge]

Imo if you've already done the campaigns and quests, whatever, was associated with that character then them disappearing due to the story would be all the better

[hazy veldt]

exactly

[hollow hinge]

And then whatever quests or bounties they had can be placed on a temporary or a new permanent vendor there

[sick yew]

However as none other than Clovis Bray himself pointed out
Blow the moon up, replace it with a device that retains the gravitational pull on earth and literally problem solved
And it pains me to say but he absolutely has a point

Nuke the fucking moon

Now

[hazy veldt]

nah i mean, holding entire locations that weigh A LOT of storage in game files for 1 vendor who literally no one goes to except once a year for some limited event is lowk not practical

thats what i meant

[sick yew]

I invoke Exterminatus

[slim girder]

Again though this would require probably an impossible amount of work. As you're disabling access to certain bits of content that is already on a weekly release window because of how bungie does things

[slim girder]

Ok Clovis

Calm down

[sick yew]

Ay I aint proud about it but hes just actually in the right for once

The moon is nothing but trouble for us

[hollow hinge]

They've done similar things before, it's within their means

[hollow hinge]

This is pretty much exactly why some people despise Bungie

Removing access to content that they paid for

[hazy veldt]

to remove the moon we must pull up some pyramid ship weaponry bc if theres is anything left its all in vain

[sick yew]

With the Witness dead thats probably even possible

[hazy veldt]

ikora barely destroyed pyramid on io from within if i remember correctly

[sick yew]

uh no she didnt lmfao

[hazy veldt]

(bc its practically impossible to do from outside)

[hazy veldt]

then got mixed up

[sick yew]

Where did you get that from

[hollow hinge]

Tbh I like to think there's at least one guardian that really... really.. really hates the Hive, that goes to the moon whenever they need to blow off some steam lol

[hazy veldt]

shin malfur lore

[sick yew]

The only thing that has ever destroyed a pyramid was the Traveler

[hazy veldt]

not destroy but uhhh

twist it

[sick yew]

And it was by blasting it with light so that the resulting growth of vegitation slowly broke it apart

Take a look around Ron on the final encounter

That thing is not a pyramid ship anymore

[hazy veldt]

fair enough

[sick yew]

1. its Malphur
   And 2. are you confusing him for Rezyl Azzir?

Aka Dredgen Yor

Shin had nothing to do with the hive

[slim girder]

Eris is really the only guardian who truly hates the hive

"guardian"

[sick yew]

What about my boy Shaw

[slim girder]

We all do but hers is a different kind of anger

[hazy veldt]

i mean rezyl just went on moon to blow some steam off and made a makeshift ornament that everyone knows atp what did to him

[slim girder]

Aztercross didn't have to crawl out of the hellmouth and sacrifice his eyes/ghost/light

[sick yew]

Well not but they still got his fireteam

[sick yew]

Yea exactly
Shin was at that point just sitting on earth hanging out being an orphan and shit

[hazy veldt]

also, is the veil destroyed

[sick yew]

Nah

[hazy veldt]

or it was just used for the gates

[sick yew]

It still sits on Neomuna

It never went away from there the Witness just needed the link to idk open the traveler ig

[hazy veldt]

then why bungie wont elaborate on it jeez

its like

yeah lets make an opposite of traveler, grace this artifact with ridiculous lore, make it intertwined with the witness's lore

and make it into cloudark accumulator

(also never mention it after lightfall)

[sick yew]

Thats not entirely true, it was mentioned throughout the lightfall year and final shape gave us some more insight to it too

As it turns out its probable that the Veil is actually part of the traveler itself

[jagged badge]

I mean, at this point it’s basically just as mysterious as the Traveler still is

[hazy veldt]

oh no, now we now that traveler has consciousness, we know of its memories, its motives, and the problem of worship which traveler does not desire

veil is just shitting strands and makes everyone fan of collective consciousness

We also know that traveler actively spoke to witness while it created dread (new dungeon items lore)

[sick yew]

Well yeah but who is the Traveler

What does it want

Why does it what it does

[hazy veldt]

reason why is unknown

[sick yew]

The Traveler is still very mysterious

[hazy veldt]

but generally its just here to plant seeds of life everywhere

[sleek matrix]

We know alot about it

Than 10 years ago

[hazy veldt]

reason why traveler is doing what its doing may be a mirror to the gardener from unveiled lore books

[sleek matrix]

The visions of the traveler that you pick up in the pale heart

Offer some insight

[hazy veldt]

gardener existed because they simply had to exist

[sleek matrix]

Alot of the stuff in that book is propaganda

[hazy veldt]

same may be applied to traveler imo

[sleek matrix]

Its like religious text cant be fully trusted

[hazy veldt]

well we dont have any more pre-historic lore books

wait 10 more years to find out what veil is

(game wont survive 10 years)

[sick yew]

Knowing more doesnt mean we know a lot

Sure there is new information but a large amount is also just still mystery

[hazy veldt]

we still know something

but again

veil is just around doing nothing

[sick yew]

I mean yeah

[hazy veldt]

with no elaboration on it from bungie whatsoever

[sick yew]

No one said it has to also have its own mind or whatever

[hazy veldt]

it was stated that there is some kind of

[sick yew]

If the assumption that its a part of the traveler itself then I dont expect it to do much at all

[hazy veldt]

meta-consciousness

and the veil can be some kind of anchor point

[sick yew]

In general youd be shocked by the amount of things we just have no clue of

[hazy veldt]

ikr

[sick yew]

You know Winterbite?

The bigass Glaive

[hazy veldt]

its lore?

no

the glaive itself yes, its lore no

[sick yew]

During the collapse an entity hit the Exodus ship that would later become the Neomuna colony and it had that Glaive

They shot at it with their exterior guns and it vanished

But left behind the Glaive

[hazy veldt]

and than they used the glaive as anthenna

that?

[sick yew]

I dont think they used it as anything but a trophy they just kept it around

[hazy veldt]

some kind of proto-tormentor

idk

[sick yew]

But who on earth did it belong to? We have no idea but based on what we've seen so far it must have been a disciple as theyre the only ones using Glaives

[hazy veldt]

nezzy used a scythe

calus used swords and a big ass gun

[sick yew]

They didnt need to have a glaive but they still had one

[hazy veldt]

true

nezarecs whisper or smth

[sick yew]

But there 0 information who that entity was

[hazy veldt]

i mean it defo wasnt a disciple

there were only 3

if not, they would depict more during salvations edge raid

[sick yew]

Thats incorrect

[hazy veldt]

huh

[sick yew]

There was another one long ago

Only losely referred to in lore

And we dont know how many more there used to be

[hazy veldt]

which item

[sick yew]

oh god

uuuuh

[hazy veldt]

its like first time i hear abt this

[sick yew]

@trim grotto I call upon thee

[hazy veldt]

is he byf's evil cousin?

[sick yew]

Unlike Byf he actually knows his stuff

Byf slander aside he and Dova are arguably the biggest lore nerds in this channel

[sleek matrix]

Which was frustrating

[sick yew]

wdym?

[sleek matrix]

After so long theres still alot of un answered questions and were meant to be heading into a new saga

[sick yew]

Leaving the light and dark saga behind doesnt mean we're done with the Traveler

[sleek matrix]

Maybe i got the wrong impression of the reveal of frontiers

[sick yew]

What reveal

We know basically nothing

[sleek matrix]

The first stream

[sick yew]

Apart from the high implication that we'll be leaving Sol we know nothing on the story side of things

[sleek matrix]

From what they were walking about and the concept art

[sick yew]

We dont know whether we're following in the footsteps of a human colony or aliens whether its somehow releated to Traveler shenanigans whether it will relate back to previous villains or completely new ones etc etc

[sleek matrix]

There will probably be some mention ofc

But i dont think it will be as big as a focus anymore

[hazy veldt]

huh

[sick yew]

Yes

[hazy veldt]

3 meter tall hitchhiker

[sick yew]

Thats the thing

[sleek matrix]

Another discipline out there more than likely

[sick yew]

We simply dont know

[hazy veldt]

and the funniest part is

they just dropped him off

[sick yew]

Well they blasted em with all they had lmao

[hazy veldt]

and whatever that was still may be drifting in space

[sick yew]

I doubt its dead

[hollow hinge]

Which tbf by our standards today was maybe like throwing a few rocks at them

[sick yew]

^^

[sick yew]

They obviously should have done mechanics until they heard the guardian theme kick in and then start dps

[hazy veldt]

i mean they fired this thing off with regular guns

so surely it aint dead

[hollow hinge]

I'm unfamiliar with this lore bit, did it immediately attack them?

[sick yew]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/winterbite?highlight=winterbite

[hazy veldt]

they got hit with projectile "from most likely pyramid ship"

[sick yew]

At least according to their readings it seems to have started attacking the engine right after impact

[hazy veldt]

their engine got hit and i assume they inspected it to assume the damage

then the projectile starts moving

[sick yew]

The "engine hit" was simply the entity colliding with the ship

They initially thought it was a projectile of sorts not a person

[hazy veldt]

then this thing started ripping another engine to shreds

and while it did they fired it off

[sick yew]

Yep

[hazy veldt]

i still have no clue how earth survived black fleet

literally most notorious and overpowered set of ships there were

capable of not planetary but stellar devastation

and dont even get me started on nezarec

i know no character in other fictional universes that got neglected as bad

[ember storm]

because all they do is basic kinds of biblical type destruction

they dont blast the planets with darkness, they cause illness and natural disasters

picked off every other bastion of humanity before turning their attention to earth

of which most still got fucked

the traveler just intervened at the last minute

[hazy veldt]

the titan decimation was cinema

[sick yew]

Witness really had a thing for the cinematic stuff

Which tbf if you are as strong as that why wouldnt you

As the famous blue man once said

https://tenor.com/view/megamind-presentation-cool-dramatic-behold-gif-4559759

[hazy veldt]

its so sad we had no insight into precursors except their architecture

but as far as i remember

some may actually be alive up to this point bc not every each one of them became witness

although i doubt they would live billions of years

[sick yew]

I dont think we have any evidence to suggest there are still precoursors around

I always assumed they just all transformed and whenever there were some internal conflicts the witness cut those out and put them into the statue

[hazy veldt]

i mean considering that

even before the "veiling" they were literal gods

capable of literally everything mastering both light and darkness

[sick yew]

hm?

[hazy veldt]

i mean what do u call a civilization when 1 of them has a hobby of genetically altering plants for aesthetical pleasure

[sick yew]

They didnt master the light wdym

[hazy veldt]

they could harness it somehow

there was a lore entry where they can store it and create garden-worlds

one of final shape's lore books

[sick yew]

Im not aware of such entries

[hazy veldt]

i have to search for it but i defo remember it existed

in rubicon

[sick yew]

Rubicon huh

Armored Core moment

[hazy veldt]

may be it

[chrome fog]

Cultural heritage is why moon still intact, used to be that getting to the Moon was a significant moment and was a step towards the space travel of current time. It might be all fucky and Hive-infested now but dammit it’s our rock hanging in the sky

[sick yew]

If its our rock then we have the authority to nuke it

[sick yew]

Huh thats neat

I always like how they refer to it as "our witness"

[hazy veldt]

so yeah basically they could do anything

[chrome fog]

Theoretically this can be available to any civilization suitably blessed by the Traveler the same way humanity and the Eliksni were before they were visited upon by forces of darkness

But the bigger point is that one fuckhead had to ruin it because they couldn’t keep their nihilism to their self

[hazy veldt]

not nihilism

[sick yew]

Absolutely nihilism

Thats like their whole stick

[chrome fog]

Yes nihilism, the Witness is a giant sack of allegorical and literal nihilism

[hazy veldt]

there was nihilist faction

and they were kind of killed

[chrome fog]

Their Final Shape is basically to doom rot the entire universe

[hazy veldt]

the penitent became the witness

[sick yew]

They had it all except an answer to why
They looked to the traveler and got no answer so they got angry

[chrome fog]

Where’s mah big nihilism explanation, imma copy paste it so I can rank up faster

[sick yew]

They took the silence from the traveler as the lack of an answer so they came up with their ideology that life without meaning isnt fine

[hazy veldt]

ik what nihilism is chill

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/kenshiro-meme-omae-omaewamoushindeiru-omaewamou-gif-18658759

Hehehehehhehehehe you gon learn

Cause I took philosophy as a class in high school in a college level course and enjoyed it and now know what to explain it as

[hazy veldt]

and i took philosophy class in college

unfortunately

[sick yew]

I didnt
I just like to yap

[chrome fog]

The Witness as an entity being a giant nihilism dillweed, explained: #📚lore-discussion message

[hazy veldt]

too many works

brain no work

[chrome fog]

Easiest way to put it: nihilism is a set of outlooks on life that hinge on the conclusion that there is not inherent meaning to life, to existence, the universe just. is.

And a majority of these beliefs essentially call to tear it all down because of how our understanding of existing makes us feel like we should be working towards some purpose for living

Hell it was even used partly as justification for the Big Bad Evil Mustache Man to do what he did in the mid-20th Century

Like he was explicitly influenced by the writings of Nietzsche, as well as any typical doomer you come across online

And apparently the Destiny community pre-Beyond Light

[hazy veldt]

i myself understood witness's motive not as "i angry bc parent ignored me", but as defiance to universal entropy, they realized the fact that universe implies life and death, appearance and disappearance of stuff and they deemed it chaos, thus by freeing beings of life, they freed it of pain, for life is not eternal hence meaningless, and the eternal stasis of everything which is final shape, they banished pain and lack of purpose by making everything eternal and equal

"We alone understand meaning of eternity"

[chrome fog]

I mean I can also say “I understand what eternity means”, and yet I can be right from some perspectives while wrong from others

[hazy veldt]

yeah thats subjectivism

or subjectivity

whats the right word

[chrome fog]

The Witness isn’t as infallible as it makes itself out to be within its own writings, as the Dissenters basically highlight for us. They can bluster on about how much more they know about existence but by the end of the day they’re not truly omnipotent, just powerful enough to enforce their beliefs into everyone even if they aren’t true for everyone

[chrome fog]

This was the right one

And as we can plainly see in real life - both in the past and currently - power isn’t always a justification for “knowing better”, it’s mostly abused for the sake of pushing one’s own agenda forward while shutting down any differing opinions, knocking them down as dangerous rhetoric when it’s just people having a reasonably different view

[hazy veldt]

i do not deny any of ur claims bc they make perfect sense to me but i still think that witness's main motive was this thing above

i mean its still pretty much a baby tantrum but on way bigger scale

[chrome fog]

They pulled a Forsaken campaign finale Uldren on the whole universe, except they also made themselves the Taken Chimera

[eager trout]

I kinda understand the Witness' motives

The feeling of purposelessness can make you want to freeze the universe and have nothing happen so that you don't have to worry about anything

Except the Precursors for some reason felt like that after having a high degree of success

While in my case it's a result of failure

[chrome fog]

All the more reason why the narrative conflict in Destiny serves as a message on how to overcome nihilism in real life: you make out what your Destiny should be

If it feels like the world is telling you it’s all meaningless and all that’s ahead of you is failure, you can very much make it not so

And it doesn’t always have to be some grand shift in your way of life, even the small things can be - should be - enough to show that you can make it out of life fine

The Witness and much of the Destiny community post-Unveiling release had fallen into the fallacy of existential nihilism wherein the inherent meaninglessness of existence points towards there being no purpose to the suffering we endure, the changes we undergo, the shifts in our daily life, when the way things were before were perfect

Just stop. Everything. So that there’s no more pain

But that’s only half of what nihilism entails, it’s ironic that most nihilists stop before they come to Nietzsche’s conclusion of nihilism, which is that we are able to dictate the idealized self we want to become, that there is not pre-determined endpoint of who or what we will become

[vast kiln]

Why do I think that Ghaul saw this skittles advertisement and that’s why he came to Earth?

[chrome fog]

Become Legend. Mantra of the whole series

[vast kiln]

No joke. If the Cabal had skittles, this is exactly how I think they would market them.

[empty fern]

Great

Now I need a lore tab of caitl trying some of the city sweets

And don’t say it’s impossible
WE SAW HER KNITTING

[chrome fog]

Oh man that would be genuinely sweet (pun intended) and nice to see amidst the angst of some of the most recent stories

[ember storm]

I mean Caiatl hasn’t been caught in any of them

[gentle pendant]

Any new lore with the weapons

[slim girder]

The sidearm is concerning. @trim grotto when you can let me know what you think. This lore actually looks like something big.

[jagged badge]

😨

[slim girder]

[trim grotto]

Wont be for a fair while

[slim girder]

All good. Just thought you'd be interested.

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-cave
Who says I'm the evil one

[hazy veldt]

could that be calus's speach?

[trim grotto]

A delusion of a being long dead, an idea of living only to serve, only for one purpose. It leaves behind a sharp-edged data fragment to mark its passing.
Long since dead would suggest it wasn't any Disciple we knew of

[desert tree]

question: Prismatic (in terms of gameplay) gives the guardian access to allows the guardian to use all the abilities without swapping subclasses. is this not a thing most guardian's can do without the prismatic power inside the Traveler?

[eager trout]

Prismatic allows you to use Light and Darkness at the same time

That's the main difference

[desert tree]

can most guardians do Prismatic stuff now, or is that a "rare" thing outside of the Traveler

[trim grotto]

Unlike with Strand and Stasis, I don't recall any more tabs describing anyone using Prismatic. There might be one from this Episode that I've missed, but otherwise none.

This isn't to say it can't be done or that we're the only ones, just, we can't say for sure either way.

However, I'm certain that it wouldn't be "most"

A handful, most likely

[desert tree]

oh, so John Doe probably wouldn't have access to Prismatic yet

[trim grotto]

Most Guardians are still mastering their Light. The only time we've seen a Lightbearer use different elements sequentially in rapid succession was Osiris, who was one of the most powerful Warlocks of all time.

[trim grotto]

Probably not. Strand and Stasis were, and sort of still are, slow on the uptake. Prismatic would be even more so, as you'd have to master the prior two first, control the Darkness, and enter the Pale Heart and master that.

It'd be a long process, not to mention that the Pale Heart is a no fly zone for most people.

[desert tree]

alright
not a big whoop, was just trying to see if it would make sense for my Titan to do Prismatic shite or if they would still be using the one subclass at a time thing

[spiral sorrel]

Okay im confused, sloane and drifter and stuff learned eris is alive how?

Did I miss something with these missions so far?

[jagged badge]

From the rifts we interact with

[spiral sorrel]

Interesting, just funky theres no like reaction from it, was expecting them to be super suprised xd
That or they did and I totally missed it lol

[torpid flint]

Evil lore Jesus

[wintry raven]

Anyone know who is speaking to oryx during the quest? Appeals to aurash and is called an escapee by oryx?

[ember storm]

I SWEAR there was dialogue in one of the Micah missions mentioning all the prismatic rifts had since closed and we’d been the only one to get them

But I also can’t be bothered to check

[trim grotto]

Perhaps
I can't watch the videos though so... If you wait there a moment...

[ember storm]

It is midterms so I will simply shrivel up and rot

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14G9zdNQY3RQQwtJxFmE4rsJWIb74K-gxVn7Lj0G_4ts/edit?usp=drivesdk

It'll be in here somewhere

I don't have time to check properly until 3 or 4 hours from now though

[desert tree]

question: are there any exotic armors and/or weapons (the originals of those weapons, not copies) that are held by The Guardian?

[trim grotto]

Yes. Lumina, for example.
I believe @jagged badge had a "unique" sheet somewhere around the place.

[desert tree]

Lumina is a suprise

[trim grotto]

We crafted it ourselves in a quest. We took Thorn's blackened broken remains, repaired it to Rose, then purified it into Lumina.

[desert tree]

oooooh
I don't think I was around for that one but yea that makes sense

wait
did we kill the owner of Thorn?

[trim grotto]

Shin Malphur did that. Owner of the Last Word.

Which is also unique
He gave it to us

[desert tree]

oh
thats interesting

[trim grotto]

The Man With The Golden Gun

Their showdown was legendary

[desert tree]

did we get to see it, or was it just a text entry in a lore book or something

[trim grotto]

It happened years before we were resurrected

D1 grimoire lore

[desert tree]

ah

[jagged badge]

Oh that? That wasn’t mine, and I can’t say I recall what became of it tbh

[empty fern]

Ah yes, green

YOOOOO

Spoilers for after 2

SHES SO SKINNY

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11ziR1O3gVNx-8LNi5hmp1CF1RQpG2wR1w950cnikpOQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
Hasn't been updated for about a year but nevertheless

[empty fern]

Also just jow noticed the radio in Eris flat, it’s nice

[trim grotto]

Jow

[empty fern]

Jow Tolando

[trim grotto]

Jisu Colorondo

[slim girder]

Golden age Orlando

[empty fern]

Anyways

Official xivu reveal

[chrome fog]

Real, Calc II and Physics with Calculus are kicking my ass

I wanna play the space wizards with guns gaaaaaame

And draw and teach myself 3D modeling and to animate and render more but aaauuugggghhh

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-kinkytwt-stan-twitter-stan-twitter-memes-monkey-angry-gif-25266657

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

Also nice Signalis pfp

[jagged badge]

Ahsa, through Sloane again

[wintry raven]

Ah

Ty

[slim girder]

Yeah the missing dialogue confused me for a bit as well lol

Had to go back through it just to actually figure out what was going on

[spiral osprey]

@sinful pivot i have realized my issue

i started doing this quest

becuase for some reason you have access to this before compelting this weeks story

[sinful pivot]

💀

[spiral osprey]

and if you do this before it makes the story make no sense

they shouldnt let this quest be able to be worked on before a certain point in the weekly story

[trim grotto]

welcome to lore chat
you have to stay now

[sinful pivot]

this wretched channel cannot contain me

[fluid peak]

This prison?? To hold me??

[trim grotto]

you will learn the lore

let me tell you about Enoch Bast, Emonda Swale, Esta Tel, Finnala, Gallida Tuyet, or Gemma Nixx

and yes these are all real names

mwahaha

[fluid peak]

But mael

What about jesus colorado

[trim grotto]

i mean everyone knows jesus colorado

[fluid peak]

What've they been up to since lightfall it's been two years

Surely neomuna's been doing SOMETHING

Given that's a 5th of nimbus' lifespan have they trained up a second cloudstrider yet?

[trim grotto]

I am
Concerned
About how that will be handled

Or uh
If

[fluid peak]

I think it will be handled by not being handled

[trim grotto]

mmmm

[sinful pivot]

they probably dont need them anymore

since guardians are at neomuna now

[fluid peak]

It's fine in 8 years time we'll have Lightfall 2 where nimbus dies for their protege and we have to stop caitl from getting to the veil and using THE RADIAL MAST

[trim grotto]

Be that as it may or may not be, Cloudstriders don't live past 10. One day, either way, Nimbus will need to be replaced with a new vendor.

And uh
I guess so would the actual campaign vendor? unless they used an instance

[fluid peak]

I think from a strategic and cultural standpoint it would be stupid for the neomunans to throw away one of their strongest tactical assets now that a force they don't fully trust has just.. rolled in

The veil, and the cloudark still require protection from the shadow legion, the taken, and likely the dread. There's a good chance a future story bungie pick up is ''ohh no the dread are coming for the veil!! We have to stop them!!''

It's a shame really, I think the knee jerk reaction the general community had to lightfall has discouraged bungie from using what is imo a pretty cool location and potential story threads

[spiral osprey]

||MASKLESS ERIS IS SO PRETTY IM SO GLAD SHE'S ALIVE AND HAS THRONE WORLD POWER NOW||

||IM SO HAPPY RN||

MAJOR STORY SPOILERS

||SHE IS SO PRETTY, ERIS MY BELOVED||

[flint ibex]

||WAILING RN||

[eager trout]

So Nimbus haters just gotta wait 10 years (or a little less)

[empty fern]

:3

[errant tapir]

Can you screenshot the front face of Eris without mask?

[errant tapir]

Thanks she is pretty

Except the 3 eyes, idk which to make eye contact tbh

[slim girder]

I hope she keeps the no bandage look after the episode.

I always find it cool when characters have more visible kinds of development.

[umbral lotus]

it's her, Hive Preptime

[little gorge]

you can really tell whoever wrote this episode's story really likes the books of sorrow

[chrome fog]

It might have to do with the fact that we're directly dealing with the Hive Gods

[umbral lotus]

Books of Sorrow are bangers

[little gorge]

we've done that before and there weren't so many direct references

[umbral lotus]

well

[empty fern]

Drifter giving it a read

[umbral lotus]

we're also dealing with all 3 of them + an older Oryx who actively speaks to us

[empty fern]

Older?

[umbral lotus]

and now Drifter's a fan 🔥

[empty fern]

This oryx didn’t know he had a son
So he’d be the younger

[umbral lotus]

older as in the amount of time that's passed

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[umbral lotus]

it's been at least 2 years

[chrome fog]

Has regular Oryx waken up or are we still referring to Echo Oryx, who is obsentsibly a younger version of Oryx from way before we even meet him

[umbral lotus]

this has taught me to keep using 'older' in this context

echo oryx obv

[jagged badge]

That line was funny

[chrome fog]

I mean it would be a younger version of him aside from just not having gone through the same experiences as Oryx had by the time he had come into the Sol System, this version of Oryx that the Echo is based upon predates a lot of other events which led up to his arrival and cutting off supposedly from the time that Oryx learned the power to Take (I'm assuming based on the fact that this Echo Oryx clearly remembers the Witness and Winnower and the disparity between his memories and recorded events of what Oryx had gone through since that time)

But I guess it would be an older version much the way we call outdated versions of apps and other programs older than their newer counter parts

[fast tapir]

that cutscene was actually so cool

[empty fern]

Finally xivu reveal

[spiral osprey]

All of them

She so cute

Love eris

[eager trout]

How do you make contact with 3 eyes while having 2?

[chrome fog]

Peripheal vision

[eager trout]

What exactly is Necrochasm?

[ember storm]

Weapon of sorrow (guardian weapon corrupted by the hive for the purpose of being wielded against us)

It was just some random ass auto salvaged from the great disaster, and apparently they only ever got as far as refitting it into an empty shell (hence husk of the pit)

[trim grotto]

More like five or so. Rohan was getting close to the end of his lifespan.

[eager trout]

Yeah, but we don't know how long Nimbus has been a Cloudstrider

[trim grotto]

Cloudstriders get a partner roughly halfway through their lifespan. If Rohan was nearing his end, and it's been a year since then, Nimbus would likely have roughly five years.

[empty fern]

Ah yes

Light fall 2

[eager trout]

Ah, ok

Why does Divinity sound like Radiolaria?

[empty fern]

Cause it’s

It’s got radiolaria

https://tenor.com/view/difinite-divinity-destiny2-destiny-destiny-meme-gif-20016073

[trim grotto]

Vex exotic from Vex raid is Vexy

It's Sol Divisive, so combines Vex and Darkness into Funny Gun™️

[empty fern]

Too vexy even

[chrome fog]

How vexing

[cloud gust]

Do Ghosts not need to materialize in order to tend to their Guardians or is Drifter a special exception

[trim grotto]

They do. And the implication is that Drifter's Ghost did, just out of frame.

As far as I can tell, there simply isn't a model for his Ghost yet.

[chrome fog]

Slash they want to maintain the suspense of not knowing what his Ghost looks like

Slash yes, they haven't made a model yet because the past year or so has been tough on the studio

[eager trout]

Is it just me or does Divinity look like it's made from Vex and Pyramid?

[trim grotto]

Sure. It's Sol Divisive. Darkness and Vex tech mixed together. Maybe not Pyramid specifically, but the big reveal of Garden of Salvation was the Shard and the Dissenter Statue, remember?

It's Witness related.

[eager trout]

I played it but for me it isn't that big of a reveal since I already know about the statues and shards

Even if not these specific ones

[trim grotto]

We didn't at the time of Shadowkeep

[chrome fog]

It's important to remember the release order of content, because that informs why some parts of the lore used to be bigger revelations than others

[eager trout]

What exactly is the Black Garden?

[dim minnow]

an alternate reality from the looks of it

it seems to be based on (or could be) the Garden from Unveiling

[trim grotto]

Where time grows in both directions and thought and language shape the world around you

A paracausal realm where the flowers can cause scars even Ghosts can't heal

[frigid sparrow]

gets bored
decides to read through the entire catalogue of hive lore
least insane drifter activities

[chrome fog]

In the weird way in-which the Vex either break conventional space-time through Causal means or create exceedingly accurate and ongoing simulations of all possible branches of the timeline (like Mael has described), the Black Garden is one such pocket of space additionally augmented by the presence of the Black Heart (something we never truly knew the nature of until Lightfall, which describes it as a failed copy of the Veil)

The Black Heart itself is a source of Darkness - and thus, paracausal power - which the Vex have harvested for use in various other simulations and pockets of reality - the Vault of Glass being one of the most notable. The Black Garden itself is seemingly a mirror of or interpretation of the Garden mentioned within the Unveiling lorebook (as Dova already explained); this connection is furthered by the fact that the Witness (though we did not truly know who it was) called us to the Black Garden to "Offer Salvation" and then provided the first entry of Unveiling (though the rest I believe were deciphered messages being broadcasted to the Relic on the Moon - the weird cylinder thing that you redeem phantasms for Shadowkeep armor - intercepted by Eris

If I could remember which entries we get this stuff from I'd link them

Same with any messages made in the past covering this topic

[eager trout]

Thanks for the explanation.
How did they make something paracausal if they don't understand it, though?

[chrome fog]

The Black Heart was gifted to them

Can't remember exactly but I believe the Witness just up and dumped it on them to use

[eager trout]

Why though?

[chrome fog]

Cause it's definitely been a hotly discussed topic on the nature on the nature of the Black Garden

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/problem-gif-27283036

Witness^

[dim minnow]

The Black Heart was meant to be a copy of the Veil but it failed

[eager trout]

By the Witness, not the Vex trying to please the Witness?

[chrome fog]

Plus it's like, a good distraction for both the Vex - who'll be interested in studying it - and the rest of the universe - who will be dealing with the Vex who have their hands on a tiny bit of paracausal power

[dim minnow]

The Witness likely left it with the Sol Dicisive so it could claim them as some more pawns

[chrome fog]

Vex no think just assmiliate

[eager trout]

I'm guessing this may be related to why the Witness gave Clovis the means to let the Vex into Sol

[chrome fog]

Save for the disparaging branches like Sol Divisive (the only example I can think of now; they specifically pursue avenues into harnessing paracausality for the overall Vex goal of total assimilation of the universe into the Vex Network, and it just so happens that the Witness gave them a gigantic Darkness generator for them to have after warring in Oryx's Throneworld pre-integration with the Dreadnaught interior and only getting a few scraps of Tithe off of the dying worms on the ground from their incursion)

[eager trout]

Well, the Vex trying to not get destroyed by the Witness. Since aren't the Sol Divisive a group of Vex that decided helping the Witness is the best course of action to win?

[chrome fog]

I believe that portal just always existed there, the Witness mainly just gave Clovis a means to cleanse the Radiolaria into Alkahest - a neutral version of the liquid which can house any conciousness uploaded into it

[eager trout]

Didn't the Witness "whisper" to Clovis though?

[chrome fog]

Yes, but specifically that first part is only really followed by the Sol Divisive, rest of the Vex don't really give a shit because they're pursuing other ways to achieve total assimilation

[chrome fog]

Idk if it whispered to him about making a portal to Volantis but it definitely called to him towards the Pyramid on Europa and revealed that whole cleansing thing, maybe even the location of that portal

Someone who's read more on Clovis' journal and stuff from the CE and the campaign lorebooks would know better than me

[eager trout]

What's Volantis?

[chrome fog]

A star

Specifically a forge star that supposedly a bunch of Vex come from, if not their homeworld or if they didn't come from the Garden as the Black Garden-Unveiling connection leads towards

Also open to be corrected because I don't know this exactly but I'm vaguely sure this is in the ballpark

[eager trout]

Ok, thanks

Gtg

[chrome fog]

See ya, need to force myself to sleep

[eager trout]

Also, what are Pyramids made of?

And how did we find out what the Witness wanted?

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I think the closest we've gotten to what the Pyramids are made of is, like, solidified Darkness

And even then it was vague and in a singular loretab hidden away somewhere - maybe the Hidden Dossier

[chrome fog]

By a much more simplified reasoning (compared to some elaborations made in this channel on the Witness' characteristics and shared beliefs) that the Witness is a big nihilistic ball of apathy, and also the fact that it connects itself to much of the tragedy that happens in Destiny - from all of Clovis' drama, to the Collapse and the Whirlwind, to creating the Hive as they are now, and just. a lot of stuff even predating when we learned about it's backstory in Season of the Deep

[slim girder]

It told us. During Shadowkeep

[chrome fog]

Like with a lot of philosophical window dressing, the Witness' "Salvation" would've either boiled down to complete universal suicide, or like what it revealed/we learned on Final Shape and basically making all of existence freeze in place - essentially doing the same thing as when you get depressed and just melt into your bed or couch not doing anything, but it forces the rest of existence to do the same

[chrome fog]

Yeeaaahhh but. it was super vague and shit and people were really digging into following that Final Shape because D2 had been limping out of it's release state into the way we know it from late Shadowkeep to Lightfall

That, and the Game Theory video on the Traveler actually being evil, which is honestly a shame cause I feel like MatPat would've loved to dive into Destiny lore if be wasn't swamped into FNAF

[slim girder]

That video is from the D1 days.
Also shadowkeep was well after release. Y3 to be specific.

[chrome fog]

That's still technically only a year away from when they were trying to make the expansions on a much shorter time frame; Curse of Osiris and Warmind were the first year before Forsaken changed the formula

And those two were meant to be how the expasion model was going to be until it was clear they wouldn't really work all that well

And we shifted towards the seasons model

Also Unveiling was only given to us in Arrivals, the last season of the Shadowkeep release year before we got into Beyond Light (I think, idk cause Arrivals was when I first started playing so the cutscenes and everything are sort of a mess in my memory)

[eager trout]

I mean in-universe

[chrome fog]

Yeah no exactly that

We basically learned that the Witness was the Voice in the Darkness, and thus the corrupting influence that laid within the Darkness

It would technically take us until Witch Queen or arguably Lightfall for the whole community to really understand that Darkness itself was not inherently Evil (Savathun and the Hive Ghosts helped hammer in that point) but something was pushing it’s bad influence onto anyone connected to the Darkness

[eager trout]

What is Collective Obligation?

[chrome fog]

Exotic special ammo Grenade Launcher

[eager trout]

Wrong

[chrome fog]

As for what it is literally, probably just some sorta experimental weapon or whatnot

[eager trout]

It's a Void primary pulse rifle

[slim girder]

It's a pulse rifle dude

From vow

@eager trout what do you want to know about it?

[eager trout]

What it is

Imma go sleep, answer

@chrome fog go to sleep

[slim girder]

It's rhulks reward to us.

[chrome fog]

My b man it’s a very similar name to the other one

[dim minnow]

pretty sure it's just some random gun we found in his Pyramid

[slim girder]

Rhulk tells us to use it. Again it's his "reward" to us.

[dim minnow]

the lore tab in it just gives us some insight on Rhulk's beliefs regarding the Final Shape

[chrome fog]

We killed him tho

[slim girder]

Says so in its flavour text

It being the weapon

[chrome fog]

I like to think he just wrote that as a note next to it without any actual thought

He’d be the kind of meathead to give a “powerful weapon” alla that proselytizing about the Witness’ Final Shape (/just his thoughts on it really)

[dim minnow]

I don't think this was referring to the weapon specifically

[vital lodge]

on a scale of Shaw Han to The Witness, how dangerous is the fact that Eris keeps a worm in a fishtank

[dim minnow]

given that it's Eris and she normally knows what she is doing, I'd say Parasite grenade launcher

[vital lodge]

noted

[slim girder]

Speaking of the worm in the tank I wonder what eris has been feeding it.

[sick yew]

violence

evil thoughts

[blazing wasp]

she vents her frustration at it, and it eats her anger or something

[sick yew]

Imagine every evening she just sits herself down infront of it and thinks about how much she hates the hive and the lil bro eats it all up

[slim girder]

The worm is the equivalent of a therapist

[blazing wasp]

paracausal stress ball

wait no thats hive ghosts

[sick yew]

[blazing wasp]

the game even has an emote for it

[slim girder]

Idk maybe drifters shenanigans and annoying Eris feeds it

I just realised something

Can we have Osiris speaking in Egyptian again?

[sick yew]

Did he uh ever do that?

[slim girder]

In CoO yes when his special cube tool wasn't working

He swore in Egyptian

[sick yew]

lmao

[sick yew]

Did we ever find out what that thing actually does

He still has em

[slim girder]

I don't believe so. Best guess it just inputs timelines in the infinite forest

[sick yew]

And outside of it?

[slim girder]

No clue. Maybe a special "unikey" for vex structures like how sagira said to us that when she hacks vex stuff she could do so without alerting vex.

[sick yew]

Maybe he just uses it as a rubix cube

[slim girder]

He could also open portals with it so could be like a portable gateway system

[modern lodge]

For parasite(best gun) does the worm go through death and revival each time? Due to para causality fuckery

[trim grotto]

It is delightfully unclear how or why this works

[modern lodge]

I NEED TO KNOW

it is genuinely my favourite gun in the game

Awsome concept and it's a really good exotic

[trim grotto]

There very honestly isn't an explanation that I, personally, am aware of

So it's basically a "paracausality" write-off

[modern lodge]

Yeah

It was made with light right?

And a ritual

[trim grotto]

I... would need to double check the ritual's details.

After I get my food that just arrived.
One moment.

[modern lodge]

Thank you lore champion

Scholar of new and old

[trim grotto]

 
Ghost: Mara, you don't have to do this. There must be another way. 
 
Queen Mara Sov: Just trust me.
 
//Queen Mara Sov transfers Savathûn's Worm into the weapon frame, ""Parasite"".
 
Savathûn's Worm: Wait, what is this? What have you done?!
 
Queen Mara Sov: What I said I'd do: provide you with a host. Though I guess this is really more a ""prison"" of Light. 
 
Savathûn's Worm: Not what we agreed!
 
Queen Mara Sov: Enough, worm. You'll live, just like you wanted. The Scorn — they see the worm as an asset to the Witness. They will not relent until they have it. Take the weapon. Use it against them. I need to finish the ritual, or we risk our parasitic friend escaping."```
Basically we used Hive Light to help create it, yes. Good memory.

This excerpt doesn't say Hive Light, but the earlier ones do.

[modern lodge]

Worm friend

I used that mf on the witness for the campaign

[trim grotto]

you used the Worm of the being that betrayed the Witness and hid the Veil, on the Witness

nice

[modern lodge]

Worm friend putting in work till this day

I'm actually really looking forward to apollo

The ghost shell alone is mad and it's theming is cool

[slim girder]

No leaks please

Do not say anymore

[modern lodge]

It's not a leak bro

You can see the ghost in the collections right now

No lore Attached obviously

[slim girder]

But you only know it's related to that because of leaks.

[modern lodge]

Well if you put two and two together

And no I haven't seen any leaks

It's very similar to the balloon concept art for apollo they showed in a stream this month

[slim girder]

Right.

[modern lodge]

I stay away from leaks like a good boy

[chrome fog]

Shit. Maybe I oughta swap Dragon’s Breath for Parasite in Iconoclasm, that might do the trick

[eager trout]

Why is there a Dissenter statue in the Black Garden?

And in the Pyramids

[chrome fog]

Daaaarkneeeesssss

Specifically, cause Witness

Why wouldn't it want to place outlets it can reach out from in the ships it controls/directs or monitor places that it has influenced

[eager trout]

But why specifically Dissenters?

[chrome fog]

It could just be general Darkness statues, which they reused for the Dissenters (Both in-universe and Bungie)

[ember storm]

Because the witness gave the sol divisive a source of darkness so they could attempt to replicate the veil (hence the black heart)

The assumption is that the witness wanted to try and get a replacement after Savathun stole the veil and hid it away

The black heart ended up being a dead end, though, so the witness and the pyramids just sat outside the system waiting

[chrome fog]

They're asking why specifically Dissenter statues

[ember storm]

they were not representative of dissenters before FS

they simply acted as conduits for the witness to transfer darkness

same as the one in the europa pyramid giving us permanent access to stasis

or the other one gifting us enhanced deepsight

they're statues simply depicting precursors in general, not dissenters

a statue depicting a dissenter wouldn't look like all those who wore long veils right as they willingly made the witness

essentially, the witness just shoved dissenters into the statues as punishment later after their tunes changed

the statues on their own are just statues depicting precursors

[chrome fog]

Which is exactly what I said, in that it's just reuse of an asset both in-game and irl

[ember storm]

no i mean they literally didnt have anything to do with dissenters

thats only in the pale heart that theyre relevant

the statues are their own separate thing

[fiery vector]

The statues depict the Precursors wearing the robes for the ritual to create the Witness, it's just that when the Witness entered the traveler it stored the dissenters in the statues so that the rest of the collective in the witness could have silence to enact the final shape

I think bungo just put the dissenters into the statues because it's just effigies of their original bodies before they became the witness

[ember storm]

its more of the witness just plucking small pieces of itself off and stuffing them into already existing darkness conduits

[fiery vector]

Yeah

Sounds about right

[strong tendon]

I’m not understanding the whole path of resolve and path of ambition stuff

[slim girder]

Treat it like 2 separate vendors.

You level up each one and they'll provide benefits depending on which you have active at the time