📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

but everything after "revived" is...

pretty unlikely

Oryx's body itself is not dead

it's just that there's no conciousness in there

[plucky moth]

He’s “trapped” in his thrown world rn bros chillin

[dim minnow]

you mean the Dreadnaught?

[plucky moth]

I only said it because I could ngl

[tough kettle]

so is someone just gonna steal the oryx soul from touch of malice and put it back in oryxx

[dim minnow]

Oryx's sould isn't even in ToM

[trim grotto]

Only if someone misinterprets what ToM is

[tough kettle]

oh ok

im not smart sorry

[dim minnow]

the weapon is more an embodiment of Oryx's will

[tough kettle]

i dont even have that weapon lol

[trim grotto]

It's a common misconception don't worry

[dim minnow]

got it first run after being the guy who kept on screwing up

[tough kettle]

then where is his soul

[trim grotto]

Nowhere, by now

[tough kettle]

is it gone

[trim grotto]

It'll be long gone

[dim minnow]

soul is dead

body is still alive though

[tough kettle]

can they do some weird hive magic to get him back "alive"

[dim minnow]

eh

I kind of doubt it

[trim grotto]

That's Ghosts of the Deep

[dim minnow]

maybe Hive necromancy, but there's not many who would do that

[trim grotto]

Which didn't seem to be working but we stopped it anyway

[plucky moth]

Wouldn’t he be in his like own dimensional thrown world not the ship

[dim minnow]

then again, Necromancy mixed with Light wasn't working

[trim grotto]

No, because he put that dimensional Throne World into the ship.

[tough kettle]

i dont think nokris is around to do that XD and he wouldnt do that anyways oryx fucking hated nokris

[trim grotto]

He died in his Throne World when we killed him in King's Fall

[dim minnow]

the Throne World is IN the Dreadnaught

[dim minnow]

Savathun managed to learn Necromancy from him which is why the Lucent Brood were doing it

[trim grotto]

Yeah but he taught Savathûn his necromancy
Hence the Dungeon

[dim minnow]

in fact, the Wizard we fought at the end of GotD was part of Nokris' brood in her previous life

[plucky moth]

So then where bro at because he’s technically still alive if he took himself

[tough kettle]

do you think savathun would revive oryx, probably not (even though oryx isnt dead)

[dim minnow]

I think she was that one Wizard major we fought at that one part of Strange Terrain back in Warmind

[trim grotto]

Nowhere. His corpse is in Hidden custody and his soul is dead.

[tough kettle]

is oryxs cells still duplicating

[dim minnow]

I mean, Oryx is dead

it's just that his body is not

[tough kettle]

like is his body still self-replicating its cells

[dim minnow]

the hard part is bringing his soul back

[trim grotto]

Oryx did not Take himself in the same way regular Taken are... Well, Taken. He used that power to move himself.

[trim grotto]

We haven't heard about it since it was sequestered. It might be.

[dim minnow]

it's confirmed that Taken don't even actually die right?

[fresh zephyr]

Were there Exo Lightbearers in the dark age?

[dim minnow]

didn't really look too much in Enigma Protocol lore

[dim minnow]

yes

Awoken Guardians weren't really around until the later part of that era

[tough kettle]

i dont know much about taken but i assumed that taken are just a weird paracausal form of their actual body

[dim minnow]

but Exo and Human Guardians were

[trim grotto]

Exo were Golden Age creations. They had a lower population than humans, but had just as much chance to be revived.

[dim minnow]

the original grimoire cards for Taken enemies gave off the implications that they were "simplified/perfected" versions of themselves

[tough kettle]

are there statistically more human guardians as opposed to awoken and exo because there are more humans in number

[dim minnow]

maybe?

[fresh zephyr]

i guess it'd make sense

[trim grotto]

I would assume so, though there aren't hard numbers.

[tough kettle]

i wonder how many lightbearers are actually guardians (lightbearers in this case not including hive)

[trim grotto]

The vast majority. The only ones that comes to mind off the top of my head are... Drifter and... Trihn, I suppose. Lord Saladin and Lord Shaxx if you're being particularly pedantic.

Oh, and Efrideet's colony.

[dim minnow]

someone actually remembering that Guardians is actually not a general term for Lightbearers

[trim grotto]

Katabasis, but he's dead, so

[dim minnow]

Saladin and Shaxx are both devoted to humanity's protection so they're both Guardians in my book

[tough kettle]

i know its not a general term because guardians are like part of that social group

[dim minnow]

Drifter too since he had background development

[dim minnow]

it's just that people tend to use it as a general term

[trim grotto]

I suppose you could argue he's a Guardian without a class, sure

[tough kettle]

im not those people

[dim minnow]

he got no class

no style

no funk

he raggedy as hell

[trim grotto]

He stanky

[dim minnow]

he held a dying child in his arms one time

[trim grotto]

There's more cell growth on his teeth than in Oryx's body

[jagged badge]

You stanky

[trim grotto]

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

You lie!!!
I showered today

[vital lodge]

so why do our ghosts require a weapon of sorrow to kill, but hive ghosts can just be squished

[dim minnow]

another Mael classic, time to play his theme song

[jagged badge]

And you still stink? Damn

[trim grotto]

Because that's not true and both can be squished

[jagged badge]

[vital lodge]

then what was the big deal around the sorrow bullet with cayde

[jagged badge]

It was intended for Cayde

[vital lodge]

so a normal bullet would have worked?>

[dim minnow]

it's implied that Scorn weaponry is shitty

[trim grotto]

In theory, that bullet was so deadly it would have killed Cayde outright, drained his Light so that Sundance wouldn't have been able to revive him. Like Dredgen Yor killing Jaren Ward.
The Rifleman was just being flashy.

[dim minnow]

also the fact that they had a Thorn bullet is very sus

[vital lodge]

why are weapons of sorrow allowed in PvP if they can do that?

[jagged badge]

They can’t

[dim minnow]

I don't think the replica Thorns can really do that

[vital lodge]

were using fake thorns?

[trim grotto]

Because only Thorn was said to do that, and the original was destroyed and we turned it into Lumina.
We, however, made and use a controlled, managed replica.

[vital lodge]

ah

[dim minnow]

purified would be a more accurate term

[vital lodge]

why did we turn it into lumina again?

[dim minnow]

not again

[vital lodge]

I meant why did we, instead of just having thorn

[dim minnow]

Torn used to be Rose

[trim grotto]

Because Thorn was a cursed object of terrible legacy

We wanted to purify it

[dim minnow]

holding the damn thing made us feel sick

and that legacy too

[vital lodge]

from a weapon of great power. to lumina

[dim minnow]

there's a reason why Shin held onto it the entire time

he actually did consider destroying it, but determined that it would have a use

[trim grotto]

Don't sleep on Lumina
It's got a stronger damage buff than Well of Radiance

It's a sleeper pick for Raids

[vital lodge]

yes but it doesnt work on yourself

[trim grotto]

It does provide the damage to yourself

[dim minnow]

and sure enough, we come along and turn it from a weapon of Sorrow to one of Hope

[vital lodge]

you cant shoot it at your feet

[trim grotto]

Applying healing and buffs to allies also provides the damage buff to you

[dim minnow]

buffing someone buffs you as well

[vital lodge]

yes, but im refering to solo

[trim grotto]

Okay but I mentioned raids

It's a teamwork weapon

[vital lodge]

eh. I think it should be viable alone too

even if its a weaker buff or something

[dim minnow]

for far too long have people glorified the feats of individuals when one truth stands above it

united, we stand unbroken

[trim grotto]

The strength of the wolf is the pack

[vital lodge]

I prefer solo. trying to communicate with randoms is agony

[ruby pivot]

optimus: one shall stand
megatron: and one shall fall

[dim minnow]

he also says "Autobots, roll out"

[vital lodge]

and "bumblebee"

[jagged badge]

He also says “I’m going to turn into a truck now”

[ruby pivot]

OPTIMUM PRIDE! CHHK CHKK BZZT CHKK

[jagged badge]

Hell yeah Optimus Pride

Based

[dim minnow]

don't forget about "Have you ever heard of the hit game, Among-"

[vital lodge]

dont forget about "the ALL-spark"

[vital lodge]

"I have 4 million power in rise of kingdoms" - Optimist Prime

[ruby pivot]

i think that was optimal pride

[vital lodge]

offidium prism

[ruby pivot]

we might get divine smite by the mods forgot this was a lore discussion not off-topic

lol

[jagged badge]

[slim girder]

More weapons of hope to go with the weapons of sorrow would be a cool dynamic imo. I can already see an exotic version of no hesitation or something like that.

Or maybe they could mimic each weapon of sorrows archetype. Like in time we could get an SMG and a scout rifle as well.

[trim grotto]

By the way Retro, about Shin and Jaren's Ghost
I've got an old writeup on the topic with a plethora of sources that still holds up if you're curious

The TL;DR is that ||Ward's Ghost didn't pair with Shin and we have no idea how Shin has Light right now||

[slim girder]

Interesting. I think I'm still going with the ghost "choosing" shin after jaren wards death though. It seems the most plausible in my eyes and I could see a plotline that if a ghost feels that connection again after their original guardian dies then they could have a second guardian.

Like jarens ghost somehow knew shin would bring down yor and be a worthy guardian

[trim grotto]

Possibly! But if you're interested in a deeper look into it, take a gander.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/r0y4ll/shin_malphur_an_outlier_for_all_the_wrong_reasons/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
It's one of the very few Reddit posts I've bothered to make.

[slim girder]

Interesting read. I should state that when I say "pairing" I don't mean it as in the normal kind where the ghost can res their guardian like normal. This kind of pairing would be something like jarens ghost can feel shin like any other ghost can and more so watches over him as he was the one told by yor to give shin (the apprentice) the last word.

[sand tangle]

Monkey

That a lore huh?

[slim girder]

They're both beings of light who were brought together through loss. A guardian with no ghost and a ghost with no guardian

[mortal shell]

Frieza

[trim grotto]

True. Either way we slice it though, it's unprecedented and curious.

Whether they are paired or not

[slim girder]

I like to think it's a scenario where if you didn't know the 2 you'd think it was the usual ghost and guardian pair.

I think the moment jarens ghost scanned over him as a kid was that moment of connection

[dull raft]

You know, I gotta ask, do you think that once Riven's clutch hatches out, we could wish some dead guardians back like Crow did for Cayde?

Alternatively, could ghosts be wished back to life if not revived like ours?

[slim girder]

Ours wasn't wished back to life

[dim minnow]

more like dragged screaming out of Heaven

[dull raft]

forgot to clarify that it was cayde that sacrificed himself, brain tired from DnD

[trim grotto]

Almost certainly not.

Wishes are a double edged sword. There's almost always an unpredictable, potentially dangerous downside... but they also have limits. Cayde-6 was able to return because of the wild fluctuations within the Pale Heart that the Wish Magic took advantage of, but with that stabilising, it probably isn't possible in the same manner.

And if they're like Cayde-6, they might not even want to be back.

[dim minnow]

also such a thing would not be seen as a good idea since at this point no one would trust an Ahamkara enough to try it

granted there is a chance Riven's clutch will take after their father

but even then, as Mael said, there is a limit to what they can do

[slim girder]

I could see maybe another manifestation inside the pale heart but wishing someone back to life like nothing happened is probably a terrible idea

[trim grotto]

This is true. And Queen Mara is the most experienced person that exists when it comes to Wishes without consequence. But...

[dull raft]

as always, yall get straight to the point, thank you

just had a shower thought and i figured i'd ask

[dim minnow]

Shinobu tried with her mother and got the Ahamkara pretending to be her

[slim girder]

And even ahamkara have limits.

[trim grotto]

Always worth asking

At the least, it can cause a fun debate

[slim girder]

Point proven

[dim minnow]

not like the Wish Wall is exactly easy to use

like you can't just input symbols

[trim grotto]

Oh god yeah I remember that

[dim minnow]

you have to transcribe it

[trim grotto]

Yeah and even then look how the Wish Wall interpreted our Wishes
One of them gave us Failsafe in our brain

[dim minnow]

and yeah, even with the Wish Wall, Riven was still trying to find a way to bypass it

[slim girder]

Wdym it's easy fr.
If I put in all snakes clearly I'm hungry and want noodles.

[dim minnow]

I'd argue it was more us grnating Failsafe's wish

[trim grotto]

Okay fair but either way it wasn't how it was desired

[dull raft]

and drifter

[dim minnow]

what even was the flavor text to it again?

[trim grotto]

Hahaha yeah

[dim minnow]

I remember when people thought Wish 15 was going to be like those two wishes but with Shaxx

[dull raft]

the wish that summoned shaxx for rememberance of Sjur?

[trim grotto]

By far Mara's most indulgent Wish

[dim minnow]

you would not believe the satisfaction I felt when I entered the 15th wish into the wall and claimed the final entry for the Wall of Wishes lore book

[trim grotto]

Honestly, lady, you invited the guy over for a gossip sesh

[dim minnow]

she just wanted a bedtime story

[slim girder]

Even mara needs company sometimes

[rich wyvern]

i'm just glad they confirmed it wasn't a romantic liaison

[fathom goblet]

How do ghost shells work?

Do you just like rip them off to change it?

And are ghost just small balls?

Do they actually need a shell?

[dim minnow]

Shells seem to be more like outfits for the Ghost

[ember storm]

Liken it more to hermit crabs

Like shells are “part” of the ghost and they can control them

But they’re also interchangeable

You kill a ghost the shell can stay on but also fall off

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny2the-witch-queen-hive-ghost-crush-gif-23101368

[frigid sparrow]

Wonder why the hive guardians don't do this to us

[dim minnow]

they can,but fir gameplay reasons they don't

[frigid sparrow]

You'd think they'd see their murdered ghosts and go "hey wait a minute"

[frigid sparrow]

Bringing challenge back to destiny

[dim minnow]

in PsiOps EDZ and Cosmodrome, you can find several dead Guardians on the ground

and Luzaku was about to kill a Guardian's Ghost, but she decided not to, much to her own Ghost's anger

[sick yew]

One death against a Lucent Hive sends you straight back to the cosmodrome

[frigid sparrow]

Imagine that shit during GotD sf

[dim minnow]

I was duking it out with Warlords while you were still a decaying corpse in Old Russia waiting to start your journey

[slim girder]

I've never seen a ghost more angry

Even immaru would probably think it was a bit too much

[sick yew]

Wasnt our ghost super angry once? I cant remember why

[slim girder]

It was because savathun said her ghosts served the light with no concessions.

[sick yew]

oooh right

On the way to her boss fight

Yeeee

[slim girder]

Yeah.

[sick yew]

Honestly the implication of us just murdering our ghosts uh siblings? On a whim these days is kinda dark
Sure they alligned themselves with the enemy but its still a ghost just like he is

[slim girder]

They did also get a bit pissed with mara after us doing the same thing over and over in the dreaming city and then having mara snap at us.

[sick yew]

(I say kinda dark as if I havent been getting back into Warhammer lore lmfao)

[slim girder]

That's exactly what ghost said. He even holds it over fynch for choosing savathun and that all ghosts made it willingly

It's a sign of betrayal

[sick yew]

Well yeah the reasons for their switch aside

We are still mudering ghosts

[slim girder]

Maybe so but serving the hive, a race that has caused countless loss for humanity at least in ghosts eyes makes them an enemy and I wouldn't put it past lucent ghosts to not show mercy if their guardians did the same thing

[slim girder]

Daemonculaba go brrrrr

[sick yew]

That is fair yeah

Still kinda fucked up

[slim girder]

Well yeah that's your own kind, but they did choose it willingly. Even the hive ghosts we know of aside from fynch actively want us dead.

[sick yew]

Well there is a difference between shooting random ass basically mindless thrall number 212305 in the face and crushing a ghost that is the exact same being as the one on our side

[small quartz]

if a Guardian fought a Green Lantern

which one of them win

[sick yew]

Uh

One of them for sure

[frigid sparrow]

Hal Jordan speaking some bullshit mantra getting one tapped by the chaperone:

[blazing wasp]

depends on the guardian, and the lantern.

[sick yew]

(And the writer)

[blazing wasp]

due to the variations of skill between guardians and the wildly inconsistent power scaling of lanterns

[sick yew]

And the issue of trying to power scale different universes

[blazing wasp]

given that its DC, a lantern could either die to a hive knight, or could take on all the hive gods with relative ease.

when i say inconsistent i mean inconsistent

[sick yew]

Its a comic book character
Inconsistency is their middle name

[frigid sparrow]

Hal Jordan getting absolutely bitched on by some basic parademons vs some shit they'd probably pull with someone like Kyle Renner or John Stewart in some one-off comic run

Actually shit what's the story where one of the lanterns was gathering tons of power rings to use was it crisis on infinite earths

[blazing wasp]

while fair, its especially prevalent in dc

more so than the majority of popular comic books

and comic book series/movie adaptations

[sick yew]

Not really
Its a comic book issue in general

Anyone can beat anyone

Just depends on whos writing the story

[small quartz]

Hal Jobber

[sick yew]

Thats why trying to powerscale characters is fucking stupid especially when you start crossing over with random other medias

[small quartz]

its not random

Lanters and Guardians have similarities

[frigid sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/dc-green-lantern-beatdown-gif-19379474

[sick yew]

Sure but theres 0 way to give a proper explanation on who wins here

[frigid sparrow]

Pictured: Hal Jordan fighting the weakest cabal legionaries

God the Justice League Doom movie line is a fun binge

Anyways, the real question is Batman vs the Witness

1 month prep time

[slim girder]

Batman a regular human literally stole the ring of his finger in that film. And did it to another one after he let them punch him.

[frigid sparrow]

Funniest fictional character in existence

I love batman so much

[slim girder]

Same.

[sick yew]

Turns out Batman was able to reverse engineer both Ghauls cage and the Veil thus turning the power against the witness beating them all so bad but ofc not killing them

[sick yew]

Calling Batman a regular human is a bit of an understatement
I think Green Lantern is just fucking stupid

[frigid sparrow]

Does he just trap all the witness ghosty heads like it's a cook's head net

[sick yew]

He just brings a bigass vacuum cleaner

[slim girder]

Maybe but at the end of the day he is still only human. Even calling himself that in the contingency files on how to defeat him.

[sick yew]

Yeah well they try to make it seem like hes just human but be real in practically all of his media hes more in line with superpowers

[frigid sparrow]

The same contingency plans where he also says "yeah bring up my dead parents and adoptive kids but also be prepared if you wanna try that shit" he knows he's not bitch made

The witness gonna show him a fossilized backstory of the moment his parents were shot and batman is just gonna beat his ass

[slim girder]

I mean we've seen what he and others in the bat family act like when they're allowed to go lethal. Idk what he was feeding robin in TT but that kid didn't hold back

[frigid sparrow]

Jason toss vs savathun and it's just infinite death loop

[slim girder]

Fr though I think batman would do something similar to what we did and help the dissenters in destroying themselves/the witness.

[sick yew]

Probably the most plausible explanation ye

Even tho the dissenters cant do that but eh

Maybe Batman helps them establish democracy in the Witness and they all vote for the Witness to die

[frigid sparrow]

The big thing is that we kill the dissenters, which would obviously be against Batman's no-kill rule

[sick yew]

Well no Batman wouldnt kill anyone himself but he dont give a fuck if someone else were to do it

If the dissenters vote to blow up the Witness I dont think hed mind

[slim girder]

They wish to be destroyed though.

[frigid sparrow]

Mostly yeah, hell, he'll allow people to die (Arkham Batman my beloved) but actually getting to the point of the dissenters going "all in favor of implosion" is debatable

[frigid sparrow]

What they wish or don't wish wouldn't matter, they'd die, and batman would be directly responsible for taking their lives

[heady monolith]

he has actively stopped people from doing so in the past, a recent example is preventing catwoman from killing carmine falcone in the batman

[sick yew]

Okay

He also hasnt

Like uh

[frigid sparrow]

It kinda depends

[slim girder]

And he's killed before Ras and even Dracula. If the being is immortal it still stopping an evil

[heady monolith]

this is why comics are silly

[sick yew]

Bla bla I wont kill you bla bla but I dont have to save you either bla bla

Forgot which Dark Knight that was

[heady monolith]

that was a horrible mindset

[sick yew]

Well yeah

[heady monolith]

it was batman begins

[sick yew]

Still a batman tho

Thats the whole point

All mediums are essentially a slightly different character

[heady monolith]

a fraudulent batman

[frigid sparrow]

Ras is a special case due to the Lazarus pit but even in Arkham Knight that's made into a dilemma and dracula is also sorta a special case alongside villains like Grundy since they're undead

[blazing wasp]

I wonder, given Batmans general views on not killing, would it apply to something like a mindless murder monster

No actual intelligence

[slim girder]

He's absolutely killed monsters yes

[blazing wasp]

Based

[frigid sparrow]

He's shown compassion to villains like Grundy, killer croc, and clayface before

[blazing wasp]

They're not mindless murder monsters

[slim girder]

Darkseids minions however he didn't think twice about strapping an explosive to them.

[blazing wasp]

They've got intelligence, the capacity (even if abysmally small) for change

[frigid sparrow]

Mmmmm clayface definitely not croc a lil Grundy definitely depends

[blazing wasp]

Im talking actually mindless

Actually incapable of changing, due to a lack of intelligenct

Also this got more sidetracked than intentional, oops

[slim girder]

Also killer croc and clay face are still kinda human underneath. They still know what they're doing. Grundy just comes back to life and starts reciting his song.

[ember storm]

But could Batman beat Randal

[small quartz]

Yes

[small quartz]

Batmans Killed

100%

he deadass shot Darkseid with intent to kill

[jagged badge]

Yeah he has done in his decades of history as a character, but generally he doesn’t

[small quartz]

this was like

5 years ago

[ember storm]

Darkseid definitely isn’t the norm

[jagged badge]

Doesn’t change what I said at all

[pastel trench]

What modern religions still exist in current destiny

[worldly river]

As far as I know, none

The only "religion" that I'm aware of that exists among humans in the current time in-universe is the Cult of Nezarec

Dawning and Festival of the Lost of course have roots in the Winter Holidays and Halloween which themselves have varying levels of religious heritage but it's so far removed at this point it's vague tradition rather than religion

Modern religions still existed during the Golden Age, but with the societal degradation during the Collapse and centuries of both Dark Age, plus the concentration of humanity in the Last City, it's possible any vestiges of religion were supplanted by faith in the Traveler given that like... why would they need to believe in an incorporeal deity when the Traveler is right there, or why believe in higher powers/divinity when the Light and Guardians are also right there

[pastel trench]

Humans are unpredictable

[worldly river]

On some level
But we haven't seen any religions and have seen a sort of os pseudo-religious faith in the Traveler so that's my best guess as to why that could be the case

[jagged badge]

The City knows of at least some religions

Ikora makes a biblical reference to Lucifer in the Witch Queen CE lore

Iirc

[slim girder]

Would the followers of Osiris be a religion?

[dim minnow]

Michael Keaton Batman would kill only if it were funny or ironic

Or over the top levels of cool

[dim minnow]

More in the lines of a cult

[worldly river]

I mean we know of and reference old religions like Ancient Greek too, even if nobody practices them anymore

[fathom goblet]

Me after savala stand in a canyon and do nothing while I'm being mauled at his house

[dim minnow]

Is this referring to the Requiem mission in TFS?

[fathom goblet]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

He does shoot at enemies that get close, he even draws their fire

[fathom goblet]

Liek I know it's your kids grave but fr bro I'm getting stomped out by a brig

[dim minnow]

Legend campaign?

[fathom goblet]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

At least it ain't the worst part of the mission

[fathom goblet]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

Surprisingly, I did that part first try

Guess it helps to play it very cautiously

[uneven canyon]

What’s that place the awoken came from called?

[trim grotto]

Depends how far back the chain you go

[uneven canyon]

After the exodus green

I forgot

[trim grotto]

The Distributary

[desert iris]

did clovis actually test on his own employees
i cant find anything on it

Only a threat

[dim minnow]

if he was willing to do it to his own son then...

probably

if I'm correct, he did send a team of people to Clarity Control to see its effects on them

[desert iris]

yeah, willing participants
Im not sure if atleast some of them were scientists or they were just from clovis’s subject collection

if they were ‘participants’ and not subjects then they probably had a few scientists

[trim grotto]

A lot of his willing participants were unaware of the risks to be fair

[severe meadow]

I liked the food pill one

💊

[slim girder]

Clovis would absolutely lie about the risks. Obviously Braytech scientists would have probably known the risks as well but i wouldn't put it past Clovis to say something like "This work will ensure humanity's future" or something like that to butter them up.

Anything to justify sending innocents into the equivalent of a meat grinder or used as lab rats

[empty fern]

Clovis bad yes

[small quartz]

What does a day to day for a non light user look like

[jagged badge]

Getting up and doing whatever job they have or spending time with friends or family

[small quartz]

I wonder how many people like

die in hopes of being revived

like

on purpose

[slim girder]

I don't believe that's a thing in the last city. Aside from the factions which have now left the city it's actually pretty peaceful amongst the citizens.

No citizen would ever think of doing that. They might hope a lost relative comes back as a guardian but that'd probably be the most they hope for.

[trim grotto]

Among the various other particularly important notes here
I think the one I will choose to specifically wrangle is mentioning that the chances of resurrection by Ghost is astronomical. While millions of Guardians may have existed across the centuries, this is out of the untold billions of Humanity, from pre-Golden Age to the modern City Age.

It's estimated that 117 billion humans lived from deep history to today, in real life
Add in the interplanetary expansion, the unknown centuries, population booms, the lack of war or famine during the Golden Age...

[slim elk]

Granted the Traveler doesn't seem to be above picking favorites as seen with the Young Wolf getting light back with Red War

Or Immaru getting to Savathun so quickly

The most blatant being Crow with Hawkmoon and the radiant accipiter

[blazing wasp]

the traveler didnt just pick us and said "yeah you cool have the light back"

we just ran into a shard of the traveler that worked

any other guardian in theory could do that.

[slim girder]

All we did was follow a vision and ghost did the rest.

[slim elk]

Yeah.
Your conveniently ignoring the vision that led us there in the first place 😝

[blazing wasp]

i am not

[slim elk]

No one else got that

[slim girder]

Any guardian could have gotten that vision

[blazing wasp]

i did not mention this as the discussion was about the traveler giving us light

[slim girder]

We were just the only one to follow it

[blazing wasp]

the vision could have been directed to us, but the traveller generally does not give visions with a recipient in mind.

[slim elk]

Exactly my point. Also, last you forget Ikora also tried getting light back from the shard and failed..
Might have been earlier than us

[blazing wasp]

wouldnt've been something the traveler did, as she has no control over that part

[slim elk]

There's also my other 2 pieces of evidence

[blazing wasp]

the overwhelming majority of every single vision ever provided by the traveller has been her just randomly screaming into the void and something picking up on that

[slim elk]

I'd like to hear how Crow getting a gun and paracausal jumpship isn't favoritism lol

[blazing wasp]

i have no arguments to make for that

but i do not see the relevance between that and us

[slim girder]

That's just a special case among lots. Many guardians have had interactions like that with the traveler. Some extreme, and some not so extreme. The traveler speaks to all guardians in different ways. Glint even recounts during that quest that the traveler can sometimes speak through a guardians dreams iirc

[jagged badge]

How is that to do with the Traveler though?

[blazing wasp]

i believe its a theory born from that old "the traveler controlls every single ghost" theory in d1

[slim elk]

The timing of it, plus Savathun clearly believed the Traveler was listening to it
(Plus.. Hive shell on Immaru already?)

[blazing wasp]

like, early d1, when theories were generally horseshit

[blazing wasp]

the hive shell provides evidence for and against this

assuming ghosts have no free will.

which is a big assumption given that zero significant evidence supports this

[slim elk]

Like said, my biggest case is with Crow where it's extremely blatant the Traveler was paying close attention to, and acted directly to his benefit

[jagged badge]

Savathûn and Immaru planned her resurrection. The Traveler didn’t send him

[blazing wasp]

the timing could also be intentional, given that its savathun, and she not only knew we'd watch this scene, she wanted us to watch that scene.

[jagged badge]

Immaru had a Hive shell because he already had met Savathûn before

[blazing wasp]

why do all of that work to effectively record you taking a huge, borderline idiotic gamble

as fucking savathun

if it wasnt a gamble though, and it was very much planned, it would be the perfect video to sow doubt with our relationships with the traveller

i say "video" rather loosely here, recorded vision? something like that

[jagged badge]

Well we saw it through the memory

Through deepsight

[blazing wasp]

and savathun intended for us to get those memories

[blazing wasp]

there was also talks of hive sympathisers, immaru being one isnt particularly surprising

perhaps not someone who felt pity for the hive, but absolutely someone who agrees with savathuns world view

just like how guardians are susceptible to corruption, ghosts are too

[ember storm]

Some of them are just bastards anyway

Like Immaru

[blazing wasp]

i should specify "being an asshole" fits within corruption here.

like, a bad person on a personality, morals, and stuff

[slim girder]

Ikoras ghost hates her.

Although I think that's rectified now but I'm not 100% sure on that

[ember storm]

It wasn’t hate

And yeah that stopped in like CoO

[crimson rose]

How can Nezarec speak English but other tormentors can't?

[empty fern]

You ever been reincarnated as a baby

[jagged badge]

They have no need to

[crimson rose]

Then why do they speak to us in their native language if they know we can't understand them?

[fathom goblet]

Is it true saint absolutely bodied savathun over and over again for Osiris?

[dim minnow]

yeah

[fathom goblet]

Only makes me like the dude even more

Saint is him

Osiris is also him

Every ien is him besides random robot #334536

[ember storm]

Who says they’re speaking to us

You never talk to yourself while doing something?

[trim grotto]

Same reason every other species does, I assume. People like to talk shit even if they can't be understood.

[tough kettle]

I remember insulting random kids who were annoying me in german
I also do that now sometimes i just say insulting things in german to people who dont know german

[fervent condor]

is saint 14 a exo

and was he a exo before he “died” or whatever

[empty fern]

Yes and yes

[dim minnow]

number after name pretty much always means exo

[rich wyvern]

no one has undergone an exomind transfer since the golden age iirc

all exo guardians were exos back in the golden age

they have the oldest bodies among guardians

[trim grotto]

If we're being very pendantic, Ada-1 was during the Collapse/start of the Dark Age. She is technically the youngest Human Exo.

[rich wyvern]

wait that's just me reaching because technically someone from before the golden age could've been resurrected

[trim grotto]

Which they can and have been

[rich wyvern]

skrillex guardian when

[trim grotto]

The most extreme example of this is Sen Aret

To make Dpedia feel useful, I'll use their writing
In life, Sen-Aret was a member of the Qadan culture. She was killed by other Humans in a massacre and buried at Jebel Sahaba around 13,000 years ago.

[rich wyvern]

i forgot this hoe lmfaooo

[trim grotto]

Jebel Sahaba being a prehistoric site in Egypt

[rich wyvern]

this was stupid i hate destiny writers sometimes

[trim grotto]

I see no reason why a well preserved body shouldn't be resurrected, if matching
She's just as human as we are today

Besides, it answers some questions.

[rich wyvern]

no i don't mean that part

i meant that guardians can be resurrected and be culturally displaced

and like "not know modern devices"

they have amnesia. i assume none of them know ANYTHING when they wake up

so why would some be worse off than others

[trim grotto]

I think we respond to unexpected or apparently contradictory information differently, you and I.

[rich wyvern]

and why would some speak a different language from their ghost

[rich wyvern]

i view this lore point as being vaguely colonial

racist undertones

but i won't go into that

[trim grotto]

I'm having trouble reaching that point of view, so that might be best.

[rich wyvern]

at the end of the day i dislike it personally and you like it personally and it doesn't need to go much further than that

i'm just glad it's relegated to these obscure lore stories

[dim minnow]

I think it is implied her Ghost had a hand in the way she speaks

[rich wyvern]

she suspected that a bit but that has kinda disturbing implications for ghost resurrection lmao

there is that dead man's tale lore piece where the guy suspects his ghost is changing him a little bit each time

creepy stuff

[dim minnow]

they are able to see things about us

[rich wyvern]

    I thought you would be first to call out its blatantly manipulative manifestation as a sparkling crystal. It is obvious that this tovyetic, elemental aesthetic is meant to set Guardians at ease—to exploit our comfort with ideas of the Light as fire, lightning, and shadow. Ice is an easy and natural opposite to fire; it carries a suggestion of proper symmetry. And the way Stasis was given to the Fallen? Obvious attempt to provoke jealousy and competition. It is easy to pick up a weapon your enemy has already used against you. Turnabout is fair play.

[dim minnow]

as in psychological things

[rich wyvern]

i do love this self-aware little jab at their own design choices

[dim minnow]

if Strain hadn't been so hasty in rezzing Callum, then he would have seen how heavy his heart was

how weary he was

[rich wyvern]

ghost lore is so loose

so so loose

it needs to be, of course

if you tighten it up you start restricting a lot of things because they are so core to how the world works

[dim minnow]

"Yall got actual explanations on how Ghosts work?"
"We got in-universe theories as to how they work"

[rich wyvern]

but like

• ghosts can be conduits for darkness
• ghosts can shoot giant light lasers
• ghosts can break from too much darkness or light
• ghosts can reproduce bodies instead of just healing them
• ghosts can do this across great distances
• ghosts can't retrieve bodies from time prisons
• some ghosts choose other species, but other ghosts insist that partners are pre-determined. some ghosts choose humans based on certain ideas or traits, but these same ghosts also claim to not be in full control of themselves.
• ghosts have full capacity of mind, thought, and memory, but these are antithetical to light
• ghosts have their own selves, souls, and consciousness, but they are also inherently "part of the traveler"

• there is seemingly an infinite amount of ghosts, but no more ghosts are being made, they were all made at the same time

They'll Just Say "Ikora Should've Died Instead of Cayde, Cayde Would've Been Down With Stasis" And Throw It Out, by Ikora Rey

[rich wyvern]

Savathûn pretends to have a soft Human body. She apologizes and empathizes. She asks for pity, she regrets emotional vulnerability, she is even funny. She makes a game for us to play.


These are attempts to enter the mind of a Human reader.


Wherever she wants to go, it is a place with Human minds. She needs to enter those minds to reach her destination.

JALAAL >> REY

Are you actually suggesting we are concatenated within the mind of a reader?

bruh, the 4th wall breaking

@dim minnow do you think there is some subplot of savathun trying to enter the real world, or is this a bungie writer going rogue with ridiculous fanfiction in stuff that almost no one will read

omfg savathun wrote text in a bungie blog entry 😭 this is hilarious what is wrong with bungie

[heady monolith]

shes told paul tassi to go touch grass before

on twitter before witch queen came out

[dim minnow]

ah yes, the famous "complete Shattered Throne solo at Light Level 999" trick

and the joke was on the people who had to coach the guy through it

[dim minnow]

I remember making an edit where she responded with a particular photo of Low Tier God instead

[heady monolith]

you should touch grass, NOW

[rich wyvern]

well this blog post basically confirms to me that this is all just silly nonsense and has nothing to do with savathun's mysterious post-final-shape plans

[dim minnow]

it would be crazy if Savathun's story ends with her actually leaving the game and there is a live action cutscene of her waking up as her actress

[rich wyvern]

maybe she's going to try to recreate old things, inspired by the pale heart

what if she recreated ancient fundament? that would be a crazy new destination

anyway, im off to bed

[dim minnow]

Savathun ain't really one for nostalgia

that seems to be more Xivu's thing

[heady monolith]

cant wait for debra and savathun to hit us with one of these

[dim minnow]

she better be the impostor in the upcoming Among Us show

[slim girder]

I'd pay money to see savathun switching roles to something like debra Wilsons version of Amanda waller who says "I'M YOUR DADDY" when angry..

Or just hearing the different characters that debra has voiced in general coming from savathun

It's like if nathan drake starting talking through ghost

[dim minnow]

Saladin had a voice line where a little bit of Reaper from Overwatch comes out

[slim girder]

The die die die line. I believe you need to get a 7th column for it

Imagine Zavala talking like spawn or husker from hazbin hotel. Or any other role keith has had.

[trim grotto]

Pretty sure it's a 20 streak

[rich wyvern]

20 streak in iron banner is rough. And you’d have to do it immediately because late game someone will get salty and nova bomb you

[desert iris]

Can someone dumb this down for me
What is happening here exactly

[rich wyvern]

Vex are so good at spreading themselves they can invade your thoughts and replace them with vex

[desert iris]

so its just you turning into one psychologically?

[rich wyvern]

There’s no stories of that so far

It’s more just them breaking your brain

Vex have to be quarantined in all aspects you can’t even hack into them basically. For example in a d1 story these humans had to send their thoughts through a warmind who sent them to proxy robot bodies and the robot bodies had to send information back through the warmind to send back to the humans

Guardians are safer because of the light obviously but even Asher ended up being partially machinoformed I think from being submerged in too much radiolaria while injured/ low on light

[desert iris]

oh
Is it just them fucking with you then

[rich wyvern]

Well this could probably give someone a stroke

Or some other condition

Asher would be “physicsl infection by vex cytostructures”

[desert iris]

yeah i know how physical and simulations work

I just had no clue how pyschoactive effects worked

[rich wyvern]

“Malignant oncomemes” is probably closer to brainwashing like with the Maya in mysterious logbook

“Brain chokes on xx etc” means basically your brain isn’t able to process the code language they inserted

[desert iris]

ohhh

I assume they cant really control that it just sorta happens

god i wish i was smarter

or is it more like trying to suggest their ideas

[rich wyvern]

From what I’ve read vex do things on purpose but under normal circumstances they have absolutely no other viewpoint with which to examine their actions

They just act instinctively

It’s normal like breathing

But it’s not on accident, they are meticulous and have methodology

They see something and assimilate it and if it can’t be assimilated they begin to study it

They probably study stuff even if it can be assimilated

Humans who were exposed to vex basically lived in this sci fi horror world where at any moment they could wake up and find out they’re a vex simulation

Since immediately upon noticing humans, vex would start simulating them

Light and darkness are the only reason guardians can confirm they are not currently in a vex simulation

Since vex can’t accurately simulate paracausal forces

[desert iris]

okay, ty
One must need a phd to even understand them 😭

From what i understand though
They just do because they do most of the time, right

[rich wyvern]

There’s just a looot of written material on the vex and absolutely none of it is ever put into the game since we just explode them when we see them

[rich wyvern]

They want to be a universal constant, they want to be everything, and theres no real explanation why

[desert iris]

Okay, ty

[rich wyvern]

How and when did we find out Osiris was actually Savathun?

[ember storm]

When she revealed it to us directly at the start of Season of the Lost

[rich wyvern]

Ohh right. She did it as like a theatrical thing

In a cutscene but off screen

[slim girder]

Yes. I'd imagine it was a gruesome transformation.

[fathom goblet]

Nah it was like a pokemon evolving

[rich wyvern]

Okay next question.. I completely don’t remember how lightfall started… why did we go to Neptune in the first place

[slim girder]

Stop calus

Osiris chased after them when the witness gave calus the order and we followed since Osiris doesn't have any light.

[rich wyvern]

Yall I just found out that male cabal breastfeed

They have pouches like marsupials or something and the baby cabal sit in there and nurse

Bungie why

[jagged badge]

Why not

It’s just a small detail for an alien race that sets them apart from humanity

[rich wyvern]

Cuz it’s nasty

I don’t want to think about calus breastfeeding a litter of baby walruses

[jagged badge]

Not really, but that’s not a debate to be had here

[rich wyvern]

You love calus

[jagged badge]

Moving on from that

[rich wyvern]

She says he has not kept his political promises to the ex-Praetorate families that approved their match. He is so wounded, he says. Doesn't his luscious body delight her? Doesn't the right to fill his pouches with her young bring her joy?

Does his luscious body delight you Eris

[fast tapir]

what the fuck

[ember storm]

You’re focusing way too hard on a little footnote to the whole of cabal lore, tbh

It’s just something about their biology to remind you that they’re aliens, not really similar to us in biology but rather their capacity to think

Like does the fact that Eliksni hatch from eggs bother you to the point of being grossed out at seeing Mithrax

The Calus backstory is about how genuinely monstrous he is

They use an action that should be based in loving warmth of a parent’s embrace and twist it into Calus having a tantrum over someone not cherishing the fact that he’s the one supplying it

That little snippet ends with Calus crushing the infants, for the record

[slim girder]

I don't think that's worth going crazy over. As waltz said they're a different species to us humans and so obviously they behave differently to us. I know most media likes to depict aliens acting as close to humans as possible but I'm honestly glad destiny doesn't do this.

[rich wyvern]

Don’t spoil it I’m not done

This is where I’m at

"My star," my father says. He is a round silk splendor on the throne. A world unto himself. His nipples are like dark poison fruit, bejeweled. I remember nothing of their taste. "I don't suppose you've come home for good?"

Also in this story is a tidbit about ahamkara killing off some ancient civilization

[ember storm]

But the ahamkara hunt was totally unjustified!!!!

Yeah sorry Riven I guess I will let this fire burn down my village instead of putting it out thanks

[rich wyvern]

Oh god and cabal cry from their mouth

😭😭😭

[jagged badge]

They also ossify when they age

Literally turning into bone statues pretty much

[ember storm]

Bone collecting must’ve been really lucrative on torobotl

[jagged badge]

Robert Brookes was saying recently how he pitched an idea for an in-game location of a Cabal graveyard type thing just full of massive bone Cabal

[ember storm]

Wellness check- oop nevermind time to cash in!

[rich wyvern]

Bro this did not happen

Gaslighting

[rich wyvern]

No im grossed out by Mithrax bc he just looks straight up nasty

[ember storm]

Wdym didn’t happen

[rich wyvern]

Like I just read it and he didn’t crush them

[ember storm]

What did it end with

[rich wyvern]

He just gives them back to the mother and kicks her out

You’re maybe thinking of him sending assassins after caiatl

So stupid and dated

70s sci fi paperback fodder

[ember storm]

No

Ok well it’s more so implied

But “a terrible sound” and “I am too young to understand it” doesn’t imply he just handed them over

Plus Caiatl calls them “little things” being held by the mother

[rich wyvern]

Then there is a terrible sound. I am too young to understand it as the sound of a father opening his brood pouches.
“I do not want them anymore," my father the emperor says, quite softly. "If you cannot love me, then how could they? You can find another male with open pouches, some barracks beau. But be sure I never know him. I will not have by-blows."
The large-tusked woman screams in rage. She stampedes out, past the guards, past me. Her hands are full of little things.

I don’t see why he’d say she can put them in someone else’s pouches if they were dead

Or is he implying that she would just make a whole new litter

Idk I don’t think babies died in this scene

[ember storm]

I’m not saying dead but he definitely didn’t gently hand them back

[tough kettle]

false...

[hollow hinge]

@trim grotto Hi

Spider is a baron, no?

[brave estuary]

I believe so

[hollow hinge]

and all the barons were related, no?

[ember storm]

Baron in what sense

Because he was a baron in terms of “business” meaning mob

He wasn’t related in any way to the scorn barons

Who were also just a band of rejects who met in exile

[daring crescent]

did shin create the golden gun? or just popularize it? or none of the above? because i swear i’ve heard something along those lines

[trim grotto]

We've never heard any actual evidence suggesting he created it. He did popularise it, as we can see by the Deadshot being the Last Word.

[daring crescent]

do you think (head canon if you must) he could’ve been the one to create deadshot golden gun? instead of golden gun itself?

[trim grotto]

Perhaps. But I really couldn't say. He learned the technique, but we barely know anything of how.

[trim grotto]

He had dubbed himself as such.

[trim grotto]

No, not really. Not to the Scorned Barons, if that's what you mean.

[hollow hinge]

what brought this topic up was @sinful pivot and I discussing in vc and we (or I) were wondering if Fikrul and Spider were "brothers" in any meaning of the term

but I guess not

just thought I remembered all the barons being brothers or sth like that

[trim grotto]

Baron was more of a title. Usually one being connected to the Houses, so why Spider claimed it, I've no idea.

[sinful pivot]

Oh hi

[sinful pivot]

I had said it was uldren and fikrul technically bring related because of the wish he made

[jagged badge]

Jongo in lore chat woah

[sinful pivot]

Though unintentionally

[sinful pivot]

I was pinged

[trim grotto]

Ah here it is
Seated on the floor, wrapped in the tattered white cloth of his burial shroud, the man once known as Prince Uldren Sov looked up to the wide shadow Spider cast in the doorway. He rose to his feet, then bowed. "Baron," he said mistakenly, unaware that Spider neither held no such a title, nor led a great house. Spider's response was a smug laugh, though he tried to temper it behind smiling words.

[trim grotto]

Fikrul called Uldren "Father" when the Wish returned him to life

Anyway I have to leave byee

[sinful pivot]

Yea I read that on a quick Google search

Which afaik is why Crow wants to settle things with him

[jagged badge]

Uldren is pretty much the reason the Scorn even exist so yeah Crow feels responsibility for sorting them out

[daring crescent]

has it ever been stated who’s “stronger” between savathûn and oryx?

[versed orbit]

oryx definitely

[trim grotto]

Both have killed one another throughout history. Oryx drew ahead for a time, but given Savathûn's current state of wielding the Light, it's hard to say.

Besides that, her true strength has always been her trickery.

[ember storm]

You’re probably thinking of Siviks, spider’s actual brother

[slim girder]

Probs for power reasons. He's basically like the penguin of destiny. If something gives him any leverage over others he'll take it. Even if it's a complete lie.

[small quartz]

So whered Failsafe come from

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[small quartz]

Where did her AI Come from

[jagged badge]

She’s a Golden Age AI put on the Exodus Black

[small quartz]

how does one Develop an AI

in universee

[jagged badge]

I dunno

I don’t know if they ever really go into it

[ember storm]

Make a computer smart enough to think for itself

Stuff it into a ship mainframe

Profit

[slim girder]

Failsafe was designed to take care of a colony. Even offering mental health counselling to occupants.

Or "nurturing" subroutines.

[dim minnow]

"Fikrul, Master of Souls"

also "Slayer Baron"

so maybe Fikrul's Echo gives him control over the dead

and Slayer Baron could be the title

[ember storm]

I was thinking it’d be more literal zombie vampire things

Like his scorn are targeting living fallen and converting them directly when killing them

[dim minnow]

there has to be more to it than that

he literally has an Echo

[ember storm]

I just meant in terms of the effects on his armies

His personal powers idk

[small quartz]

… she does what

[small quartz]

okay hold up

You telling me

We could be fighting Dead Guardians???

[dim minnow]

probably not

[slim girder]

In bungies words "slaying vampires with a touch of splicer"

[small quartz]

COME ON

LET ME FIGHT ZOMBIE GUARDIANS

[slim girder]

That's not really a thing in destiny

[small quartz]

I’d actually break down in tears of joy if we could

[trim grotto]

If a Guardian was dead, they'd have no Ghost. If they had no Ghost, they'd have no Light. So you'd just be fighting a Human.

[small quartz]

Zavala

[dim minnow]

the armor sets really do have us dressed up as Vampire Splicer D

[trim grotto]

Right. Just a man.

[small quartz]

Darkness Empowered Revived Guardians

[slim girder]

Not a thing

[small quartz]

But it could be

[dim minnow]

so this thing?

[small quartz]

That is a chicken sir

A featherless chicken

[dim minnow]

it is a featherless biped

therefore, a man

[small quartz]

Oh shit

…

[trim grotto]

So that's just a human with Darkness
Which is irrelevant to being a Guardian

[small quartz]

Fuck

[small quartz]

They’d be dead guardians

Which would be controlled by the echo

[dim minnow]

just dead mfs using Stasis or some shit

[small quartz]

It’s cooler in my head

[dim minnow]

whatever, can't come back if they are disintegrated

[small quartz]

But maybe a stasis strand mix

[trim grotto]

This sounds like Rise of Iron but with Darkness instead of SIVA

[small quartz]

Never played it

[trim grotto]

That also had "zombie" Iron lords

[small quartz]

Gimme a broomstick

That’s all I ask

[trim grotto]

🧹

[small quartz]

Give me just a normal ass shotgun in reference to evil dead

[small quartz]

With the perk of changing it from a long barrel to short barrel

[dim minnow]

ok too small an image

[small quartz]

Groovy

Or Gravy if you like Turke

[trim grotto]

why do you want to clean so much

[small quartz]

Boomstick

Boom Stick

[small quartz]

It was a typo

[trim grotto]

too late

[small quartz]

NOOOO

[dim minnow]

too early

[trim grotto]

you get one sweeper frame

[small quartz]

ANYWAY

I’d love an evil dead reference

Give me a chainsaw hand

Give me a boom stick

Give me a deadite

[dim minnow]

I feel like Revenant will be more in line with this:

[small quartz]

ANYTHING

[dim minnow]

the armor looks the part

Destiny 2 Episode: Revenant spoilers

[small quartz]

Terrifying

So what happens to echoes

Once we kill maya

Do we get the echo of uh

[dim minnow]

command

[small quartz]

Radiolaria

[dim minnow]

Echo of Command

given that we have a new title for Fikrul, it's possible that his echo will be called Echo of Souls

[small quartz]

What happens to Em

[dim minnow]

not sure

the Vanguard would probably want to keep it under lock-and-key

too powerful to be used

[slim girder]

I miss these guys. Very cool idea.

[small quartz]

So we’re turning it into a gun

Right

God a gun which turns enemies against their own barracks

[slim girder]

So timurs artefact?

From d1

[dim minnow]

exactly what I was thinking

what if there was an enemy that would enable friendly fire for one person and nothing else?

[small quartz]

huh

[slim girder]

Fr though i don't think we'll be turning an echo into a weapon anytime soon. The main goal rn is to stop the power vacuum caused by the echoes

[dim minnow]

like there's nothing forcing you to hurt your teammates, you just can

[slim girder]

D1 artefact. You melee a red bar and they start attacking their own

[dim minnow]

I wonder how many people would just kill their teammates for the hell of it

[small quartz]

Please Bungie

[slim girder]

I've always thought for april fools bungie could enable friendly fire in all activities

[small quartz]

God yes

[slim girder]

Like how apex enabled fall damage for a day

[small quartz]

Choir Of One

What’s it’s deal

[slim girder]

Wdym?

[dim minnow]

just some Vex weapon

perhaps the conductor's creation, but we got it ourselves

note that it is probably made for human hands so might not have been made by the Vex specifically

[small quartz]

Fascinating

It’s also the coolest void exotic…

[slim girder]

My guess it was made by maya

We don't actually know how a lot of exotics are made

[small quartz]

I am so into how the guns are made

But we get no fucking info

Like

How do you get the agers sceptre
How did they make that shit

[trim grotto]

We got it in a quest.

[dim minnow]

I believe it is an Awoken artifact

[trim grotto]

Season of the Lost.

[slim girder]

That was intended for uldren

[dim minnow]

once intended for Uldren

yeah

but Mara kept it from him since she figured he was doomed

[small quartz]

… that’s not what I meant

I meant like

How do you get it as in how would someone end up making that

[dim minnow]

Awoken made it

Awoken relic

[small quartz]

Awoken may be goated…

[dim minnow]

except for Petra

[small quartz]

What’d Petra do

[dim minnow]

been a while, but I guess it's time to pull out the old list

wait, was it made into a bot command?

;petra

guess not

[small quartz]

grabs 2 foot tall leather bound binder

blows the dust off it

[candid inlet]

dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)

Message Link to #📚lore-discussion

1. She was forced to work in the Last City as an Emissary as punishment for calling an airstrike that killed 3 fireteams of Guardians and their Ghosts who were fighting deeply entrenched Fallen Wolves.
2. While in exile, she showed great disdain towards the people of the city thinking that the "don't know their place".
3. Between Red War and Forsaken, when Cayde apprehended Fikrul and Uldren, she decided to lock Uldren up in the Prison of Elders alongside Fikrul and the other Scorn Barons and made sure only her, Cayde, and Variks were the only ones to know that the Prince was still alive.
4. After this, she left the task of curing Uldren and Fikrul's respective conditions solely on Variks' shoulders which could be seen as one of the leading factors behind his decision to abandon the Prison starting the vents of Forsaken. Could of asked techeuns or even the Last City to help, but no, must not make her people any less happy I guess.
5. She heavily despises Zavala even going to the point to where she fantasizes about being superior to him and mopping up his dissolved remains off of the floor. Not even joking here.
6. I really doubt she had no idea what Uldren was planning until she failed to stop him at the EDZ. She may not have known about Riven being behind it, but she had to know that Uldren took over the Tangled Shore so he could get to the Dreaming City. Maybe the Vanguard would have gotten involved if they knew Uldren could unleash a Taken Ahamkara, and maybe the Dreaming City fisaco wouldn't have been so bad. Instead Petra kept it a secret until after Uldren was able to reach his goal.
7. She wasn't even the one who summoned Guardians to aid the Awoken in the Dreaming City, that would be Paladin Kamala Rior.
8. Variks questioned quite a few of Petra's decisions as acting regent, including her lack of action towards preventing the Scorned Barons from growing in power.
9. Despite everything that has happened thus far, she has refused to change unlike Mara.

Command triggered by dovadah. Message link from · Jul 13, 2023, 3:46 AM

[slim girder]

There's a lot of descriptions about how powerful exotics are but not a lot on how they came to be

[dim minnow]

quite a few of them have all the info we need to know

Wardcliff Coil, Cerberus +1

etc.

Wicked Implement seems to be a trophy we claim from Xivu Arath (note how I don't say that she gave it to us, because Hive look down on giving)

[slim girder]

Dragonsbreath is just about 2 guardians testing it

[small quartz]

Wow

What an asshole

[dim minnow]

it's a Fiezel/Crux gun

nuff said

[small quartz]

Uh the graviton was found in Chicago

So

Very fitting

[dim minnow]

never going to Chicago again, these gangsters are shooting each other with particle colliders man

[slim girder]

Cover me i'm going to chicago

[dim minnow]

you're going to get stabbed by a Ghost over a blue engram

[small quartz]

Guardians, gear up, we’re sending you to a place with the fiercest monsters you have ever seen
More horrifying than the witness and it’s creations
This place was undisturbed when the golden age ended, however they had never experienced it
Plunged into an eternal dark age for thousands of years, we are sending you to
Detroit

cut to footage of the place and it’s just normal ass 2024 detroit

[slim girder]

Two tailed fox lore is a song of some kind.

[trim grotto]

City Age anime intro

[slim girder]

Basically

[trim grotto]

Literally

[slim girder]

I knew instantly this has to be some golden age kind of eurobeat or something

[dim minnow]

I wonder if there is an actual in-universe anime show recounting the events of the games

[opal kelp]

Who or what is vesper?

[arctic iron]

why is vesper

[opal kelp]

How is vesper

Is this the first mention of vesper?

[trim grotto]

Is what the first mention of Vesper?

Vesper of Radius?

[dim minnow]

Vesper's Host

reminds me of "Holborn's Host"

[trim grotto]

I have no idea what you're talking about

[dim minnow]

you haven't heard?

today's twab

[trim grotto]

I have not read it

[dim minnow]

revealed Dungeon name

[arctic iron]

new dungeon name

[dim minnow]

also key art

[arctic iron]

damn

im slowzo

[opal kelp]

Read it and then answer my question

[trim grotto]

Well, Vesper has only ever been mentioned as Vesper of Radius, which isn't referencing a person, but a Vesper - an evening song.

[dim minnow]

I'm wondering if this is related to Holborn's Host in a way

[trim grotto]

Music of the Spheres reference

[opal kelp]

What’s that?

[trim grotto]

Holborn's Host was a... essentially a fireteam. A group of Guardians.

Lead by Holborn

[dim minnow]

they were known for doing several high-profile expeditions on Mars for the Vanguard

[opal kelp]

And what makes you think of them?

[dim minnow]

so what if Vesper's Host is referring to a simialr group

like another group of guardians who go on these expeditions

[dim minnow]

just because they both have "host" at the end of their names

[opal kelp]

I see

[trim grotto]

I think... Vesper. Evening song. Music, so... Choral Vex Dungeon.

[dim minnow]

the design of that solar thing is Vex-like

[trim grotto]

That too yeah

[dim minnow]

but it also seems like it is in the Tangled Shore perhaps due to the tether all around

[trim grotto]

I'm putting my chips in on Choral Vex Dungeon

[dim minnow]

and this may be a long shot, but could it be the solar engine of dead star six

[trim grotto]

Nessian Schism if I were to be accurate, as I should be

[trim grotto]

Ooh, pulling out that card, eh? Well, at least one of that list existed...

[dim minnow]

so you know the reference?

(this is the part where you post that Paul Mccartney gif emoji)

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

hah, love that little guy

[trim grotto]

But yeah I know what you're on about

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

only way to get it myself is to join the cryptarchy

I don't really know why I haven't joined it yet

[trim grotto]

There's also, of course, the Ishtar Collective

[small quartz]

Please make a destiny anime dovadah

[limber crest]

is there a way i can get all of the seasonal lore condensed to read through without having to watch like 6+ hours of youtube explanation? the reason is because i want to finish the entire game before the season pass ends, so that i can get the ronin hunter armour from that one mission

i'm at shadowkeep and can play through the main story, but the seasonal things were removed so i have to watch youtube videos explaining what happened during those

do the pinned messages suffice or are there more things i would need to know?

[dim minnow]

the Episode content shouldn't be going away until Apollo launches

so you got a lot of time to get that armor

on the other hand, rewards from the pass itself will be going away when Revenant comes out in a few weeks

or like one week?

idk

1 and a half weeks?

however long it says ingame

but yeah, the ronin-themed armor should be sticking around

[limber crest]

yeah, it was 11 days but I'm only on like tier 30. I'm just paranoid about not finishing it because the armour in the pass is really nice

[dim minnow]

the RoN-themed armor though will probably be going away

[trim grotto]

Correct
Ronin style stays as that is actual armour, the ornaments in the pass do not

[limber crest]

what's that?

[dim minnow]

Root of Nightmares

[trim grotto]

The ornament sets in the pass, the glowy looking ones.

[limber crest]

ah. yeah, those are what i want. just not sure if i'll be able to grind them out in time

[dim minnow]

the armor's design looks a lot like the growths all over the Witness' Pyramid in the raid

[dim minnow]

you just gotta grind out those seasonal challenges

[limber crest]

would completing the story give any good progression towards the pass too?

[dim minnow]

several challenges do require it

so yes

[trim grotto]

Seasonal Challenges are the primary way to do it. Everything adds some xp, but the challenges are the best way.

[dim minnow]

as well as the failsafe specimen quests

[limber crest]

great. guess that takes me back to my initial question then, do you say the recaps in the pinned messages are good enough for knowing the story from previous seasons?

[dim minnow]

oh the recaps made by me

yeah I'd say they have the main stuff

[limber crest]

oh lol, had no idea. thank you for making those, it saves me like 6 hours of youtube recapping

[dim minnow]

they are heavily summarized, but I think they hold the main stuff you need to know

the only one that is missing is the Taken King one

because I forgot about it

[limber crest]

yeah that's basically all i care about, i'm not bothered about learning every little detail as long as i can understand the basics of what happened

[dim minnow]

but I did make it at some point, it just isn't in the pins

[limber crest]

when would that take place? that's d1 right?

[dim minnow]

yeah

between House of Wolves and Rise of Iron

[limber crest]

i watched a video explaining all of d1 but it got to the point where i couldn't be bothered watching anymore

so i think i got that one

[dim minnow]

though it is worth noting that Taken King is a VERY relevant story beat

in that the stuff that happened during it left ripples

like a lot of events happened because of it

[limber crest]

i can't really place my finger on it much since i've mostly forgotten, so apologies. but, it was something like him and his 2 siblings connected with worm gods or something right?

[dim minnow]

that was likely about them becoming the first Hive

[trim grotto]

True, but the main thing is that Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath were the original three Proto-Hive/Krill to become the first Hive.

[dim minnow]

the Worm Gods gave them a bargain, take their spawn and feed them in exchange for power

[limber crest]

ah right. and they have "throne worlds" where they can basically revive themselves infinitely, basically having that throne world as a respawn point right?

[dim minnow]

but this bargain was a rather shitty one as they would learn (about a billion years too late)

[limber crest]

why was it bad?

[dim minnow]

yeah somewhat

[dim minnow]

the more they feed the worms, the more they would need to be fed

[trim grotto]

Historically, yes. Nowadays, not so much. Oryx was slain within his, so he is dead for good. Xivu Arath's connection to her Throne World was recently severed by Eris Morn, rendering her - while still powerful - mortal.

[dim minnow]

eventually, they will be consumed by their own worm

[limber crest]

ah, so they basically become a nigh bottomless pit

[trim grotto]

Which grew ever more hungry

[dim minnow]

and it also condemned them to being genocidal monters

[limber crest]

oh right, the taken king raid is you entering his throne world to kill him for good right?

[trim grotto]

Hate monters

[dim minnow]

of course, most Hive will have no qualms about that part

[trim grotto]

It is indeed

[limber crest]

okay i'd guess that's the basics, unless there's more i would need to know

[dim minnow]

some details, but you don't really need to worry about those right now

[trim grotto]

Hard to say without knowing what else you know. We can certainly continue to answer questions, though.

[limber crest]

got it, i guess the best thing for me to do is just return with any questions that i may have during my playthrough

thank you both very much for answering things for me

[dim minnow]

let's just say A LOT of things aligned for Oryx to be killed off

[trim grotto]

I'll be here all night, for... like, six hours or so, probably.

[dim minnow]

and A LOT of people were working against him to make it happen

[ruby pivot]

i asked this before, we know there is no known recorded speedster guardian

what do you guys think are factors of it being hard again? why its not possible

[trim grotto]

You'll have to elaborate

[ruby pivot]

i mean i remember someone responding to me that while there is no speedster guardian recorded in lore

[blazing wasp]

I mean for starters, obvious writing problems with speedsters.

[ruby pivot]

you guys said it would be difficult since its straining for us guardians

[blazing wasp]

It's extremely hard to write a speedster well, and not have them just decimate everything that looks at them funny

as for more in-universe reason, we just cant get fast enough ig? and if we get fast enough what would be the point

our ability to move fast will only do that, make us go fast, it wont make us better at reacting or anything

its like having a guy with horseshit reaction time, and make them drive a racecar

[trim grotto]

Yeah we just
Don't move that fast

That's all

[blazing wasp]

there's enough layers of problems with the speedster thing that it could make a loaf of bread.

[ruby pivot]

hmmm true speedster like flash in some comics have been inconsistent

yeah i can see that

[blazing wasp]

bad idea to make narratively, does not make sense narratively, and if they did make it make sense to exist, it makes no sense to use

[ruby pivot]

or writers either forgot or intently didnt put it in the comic for the sake of plot

hmm yeah i can see that now

[blazing wasp]

Speedsters are overpowered, nothing more to it

[slim girder]

The closest thing to being a speedster is something like the new arc hunter super where you zip or I guess blink towards wherever a knife is thrown.

[blazing wasp]

thats basically teleportation which is a different can of worms

[ruby pivot]

mhm

alright another lore like question? we can shape weapons in any element but we need concentration to maintain them right?

[slim girder]

Also a "speedster" usually is able to defy physics due their powers like the flash would set off chain reactions with how fast he goes but because he can tap into the speed force this doesn't happen.
Guardians while possessing superpowers are still susceptible to natural forces. We aren't any different from a human or even exo.

[ruby pivot]

ooohh, we're just "enhanced" beings but still tied to the law of universe(d2 wise)?

[slim girder]

We just have flashy powers but a guardian can easily do something as simple as break a leg

[slim girder]

Pretty much yes

[ruby pivot]

ok ok fair enough

[blazing wasp]

we can, fortunately, not get tetanus

[slim girder]

I used this example a while ago but cayde as an exo took a full body hit from the hangman but I can only imagine the damage an awoken or human guardian would take

[slim girder]

True.

Makes me think that guardians can have physical injuries but not infectious stuff like for example tetanus or sepsis

[blazing wasp]

or given that our lifespan tripled, we probably became immune.

cancer's probably cured too

[ruby pivot]

huh, now that i think about it, since we are "super humans" are there other viruses that can still affects us?

[blazing wasp]

i say "we" like everyone

guardians and not

[ruby pivot]

like any viral sickness that we know

[blazing wasp]

no real reason to make guardians specifically immune to disease when we can rid ourselves of all diseases on the fly

[slim girder]

We don't really know if diseases are still a thing in destiny. I would assume they still are but the golden age and the creation of exos makes me think that technology advanced enough to where almost all diseases had cures.

Or treatments

[blazing wasp]

they are a thing, ghost states so once or twice, but how they affect us is dramatically reduced

do note that historically as time goes on humans are much better at handling viruses and bacteria, both due to medical progression and general immune systems

[ruby pivot]

isnt it humans gained 300 years of lifespan from the traveler?(assuming some of us can live to 100-modern humans as example)

[slim girder]

Yes

[blazing wasp]

we are a walking bioweapon compared to the 1500's