📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

Whats stopping them

[slim girder]

I believe there's a lore piece talking about that

[dim minnow]

they're bound to the events that play out

[sick yew]

But we arent right?

[dim minnow]

Amrita, the cute Awoken girl we always find gutshot says that she has no way of avoiding getting shot

[dim minnow]

yeah, we're good

[sick yew]

So what if we walk in, pick up our new Awoken gf and carry her out of the dreaming city

[slim girder]

I feel bad for her. Or the awoken that we find dead every I think 3 weeks.

[dim minnow]

I don't think it changes their actions when the loop resets

[sick yew]

so shes just teleported back in?

[dim minnow]

who knows, maybe they'll touch up on it more next time it becomes relevant

maybe in an episode about Dreamtown

the Ahamakra eggs hatch and we use them to systematically free each Corsair and such from the curse

maybe it's more of a mental thing and the loop kind of takes over their free will

[slim girder]

I don't think we'll be touching on the dreaming city for a while tbh. Seems like after season of the wish that whole story is on the backburner now. At least until we meet rivens new brood.

[dim minnow]

sort of like... being taken?

hmmm

[slim girder]

Well the dreaming city is taken as has been described. So everyone within it is bound against their own will to it.

[dim minnow]

is what's happening to Dreamtown similar to the Mars timerifts?

of course the two are vastly different

but I mean are these two phenomenon similar in a way

[slim girder]

No. Mars had time rifts because of it being brought back by the witness after being shrouded in darkness. It's reappearance "disturbed" it if that makes sense

At least that's just from what I recall

[dim minnow]

keep in mind the Time Rifts were caused by the Enclave Relic which uses advanced Deepsight

[slim girder]

Right. So it's a darkness power of sorts.

[dim minnow]

what I'm saying is that perhaps the Dreaming City curse loop is based arounf Deepsight as well

[slim girder]

It might be

[sick yew]

It is?

[dim minnow]

if not, then at least it has to be deeply linked to the kind of power that allows one to take

[slim girder]

But I don't really see any evidence of it. It really might just be as simple as the dreaming city was taken in the same way taking a single being works.

[dim minnow]

and if that power is the one that lets us "move worlds"...

[sick yew]

Dova you remember that one post campaign quest where we become Taken temporarily?

[dim minnow]

there's still the time loop going on though

[sick yew]

Or like hop into their realm

[slim girder]

I need to go over those 2 truths 1 lie thing

[dim minnow]

yeah sort of

[sick yew]

What do you make of that

[slim girder]

It's us seeing how they see

[sick yew]

I know Mara said we were on the verge of being Taken

[dim minnow]

Taken were able to see things we could not

[sick yew]

Can guardians even be Taken?

[dim minnow]

we never really got a case of it happening

but Taking is described as ontological

[slim girder]

Like they possess deepsight naturally to an extent. Unless it's like how in season of defiance we used the ascendant plain to sidestep defences. The taken could definitely use that ability

[dim minnow]

so theoretially, it's something that can happen since ontological weaponry is one of the few things that can effectively kill a Guardian

[slim girder]

Well yeah. Another example of ontological weapons would be something like the oracles or gorgons. They attack a beings existence in reality even removing memory of that person.

[dim minnow]

Oracles technically just search the timestream and mark things that need to be negated

it's Atheon and the Templar that does that stuff

Gorgons do it without Oracles though

[slim girder]

Just for comparison there's a story in Warhammer 40k about a leader firing an ontological weapon at a group of 20 people trying to attack them. After the gun had been fired though he didn't even recall who he fired at, only that there were 20 people

[dim minnow]

another example of ontological weaponry include Deathsong and Techeun magic

[slim girder]

Would the witness fracturing someone count as ontological?

[dim minnow]

hmmm

well ingame we can rez someone who dies from it so I don't think so

ontological weapons seem to exclusively appear as wipe mechanics

[slim girder]

Oversoul gaze?

[dim minnow]

probably

if it is meant to be Crota exerting his will over his Throne world to remove you from it then it should be one

though not all wipe mechanics are ontological weapons neccessarily

[slim girder]

Oryx has one as well when he tries to wipe you. I have forgotten it's name though because I haven't died to it or seen a KF wipe in a long time.

The tablet of ruin might also be one. But I think maybe we're being a bit to lenient on what ontological weapons are now

[dim minnow]

it has to specifcally attack your own existence

Taken Techeun wipe mechanics are specifically classified as ontological weapons ingame

so they count

[slim girder]

Rivens wipe mechanic could be one as well.

Even if it's not stated

[trim grotto]

Alright so let's see

Outer seems to be fairly analogous to being paracausal as an entity

The Guardian only defeated Oryx due to systematically dismantling his tribute system, weakening him significantly - most noticeably with Crota. In fact, basically all of our raid boss kills have occured due to us manipulating something about the boss, usually some manner of reversal of energy. In Oryx's case, it was additionally the use of the stolen Light Oryx had in his arena.

Oryx was gonna kill the Traveler - to be honest, Oryx didn't actually seem that interested in the Traveler. Yes, it was a heretical being he would have destroyed, but it wasn't really his primary focus. He only came to Sol after Crota died, he was more interested in enacting Sword Logic elsewhere.

[sick yew]

Except sometimes we just really like shooting our gun

Like Taniks

[trim grotto]

Taniks had the benefit of just being A Big, Weird, Fallen™️

though we did have to contain an energy

And activate security systems to disrupt his tech

[sick yew]

And the untold power of radiation poisoning

Tho it could be argued the security desruption was merely so the locks on the boxes would open no?

[trim grotto]

Which does in fact kill Guardians
Luckily we're pretty good at handling weird energies

[trim grotto]

There was uh

whatchacallit

Suppressor

[sick yew]

Yes

[trim grotto]

Yeah but suppressor also stunned Taniks

[sick yew]

My Guardians face slowly melting off while he stares at the locked box after john suppressor gets launched into a pit

[trim grotto]

Yeah Gol described the kind of horrible reality a Lightbearer would face in an area of severe radiation without protection

[sick yew]

Taniks is connected to the tech around --> Suppressor overloads systems --> boxes open

thats how it always worked in my mind

[trim grotto]

Given that it's called Suppressor I assume it was primarily designed to stun intruders

but it's entirely up to intepretation as per usual with raid mechanics

[sick yew]

Exactly

[trim grotto]

"I doubt it. The Fallen don't often use nuclear weapons. It ruins the land. My guess is that a Warlord raided this place for its livestock and then set off a bomb."

"Why?"

Gol gives a little shrug, bobbing in place. "Why not? No one was here to stop them."

Orin clenches her mace a little tighter. She feels nauseous. "Can you tell when it happened?"

He runs the computations. "Not precisely. Less than thirty-six hours ago, I suppose."

"I should have walked faster," she mutters, and then bends over to be sick.

"You can't do that here," Gol interrupts anxiously. "Stop, Orin. Stop. You have radiation poisoning. If you're sick here, you'll die here, and then I'll have to resurrect you here, and you'll be sick and die again and again. You have to move. Come. I told you not to walk around here."```

[sick yew]

We do a little radiation poisoning

[sick yew]

@trim grotto Question regarding the Pale Heart

From what I remember its constructed of the memories of the people who enter it yes?

And cause bla bla paracausality it is functionally an infinite pocket dimension

[trim grotto]

Well I don't know if it's infinite but sure

[sick yew]

Well shouldnt it have like drastically increased in size when the gang pulled up for Excision?

tons of new people tons of new memories

[trim grotto]

Things seemed to have settled shortly after our arrival

[sick yew]

Wait before our arrival? How is anything there then

Besides like Crows memories

[trim grotto]

What?

[sick yew]

Or do you mean our arrival in Excision

[trim grotto]

I said after

And no

[sick yew]

Oh

Yeah reading and all

Anyway

So the way the Pale Heart is rn seems a combo of Ours, Zavalas, Ikoras and Crows memories maaaaybe Witness depending on how you spin shit

[trim grotto]

There is some Witness yeah
Like Liminality

[sick yew]

Right right

Good point

Also the tree of silver sisters

Thats what I like to call it

[trim grotto]

[sick yew]

Still kinda funny that I deadass didnt notice it until I went around the place taking screenshots

[trim grotto]

The Cryptarchy saw it in the trailers and turned it into an emote like a day later

[sick yew]

The weekly Arrivals story missions have made me completely numb to the tree of silver wings I dont even register the thingies anymore

Trying to think what else fits where roughly

Cosmodrome is obviously us

Io cradle is Ikora

The house and kinda earth like stuff is Zavala

All of the Awoken shit is Crow

Last city is all of us

[sick yew]

Also Ahamkara stuff in liminality tho that could also be from the others considering the great hunt and shit

Along with the more recent Ahamkara related events

Forgetting any place?

Guess there are those little Witness exposition pockets but those always seemed manually constructed by them

Specifically the later ones about us in particular

[silver iris]

Legit question, why didn’t the Guardian throw a restoration grenade at Cayde in Forsaken? Are they stupid?

[jagged badge]

[sick yew]

Better question, why couldnt I tap the bro dead when I first saw his ugly horn

[silver iris]

Bro hates unicorns

[sick yew]

Mayhaps

[warped karma]

Bro is not Gendo Ikari

[sick yew]

How do you know

[warped karma]

Gendo is Japanese you are not

[sick yew]

How do you know

[warped karma]

Turn around

[sick yew]

Never

[tough kettle]

Dont do my man cayde dirty like that

[sick yew]

Imma just say it like this
Had I been there in the Prison of Elders
They wouldnt have had much to burry

In Final Shape he was neat but he has to answer for the crimes that was his character between D2 vanilla and Forsaken

[tough kettle]

[slim girder]

I wonder how Nathan felt knowing that the original cast for the vanguard isn't around anymore. Rest in peace Lance.

Not sure what ikoras old VA is up to.

Must feel a bit odd with how much has changed over the years

[blazing wasp]

ikoras current VA is in marvel rivals or whatever the OW game is

[cinder geode]

Mortal kombat too

[jagged badge]

And Fortnite

[ocean hemlock]

Ikora's old VA is Gina Torres. This is what she's up to: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0868659/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_0_nm_8_in_0_q_gina%2520torres

[slim girder]

Good to know

[unreal pecan]

No worries I found the evidence I was looking for 👍

Anyone have the statement of how you become taken

I think the statement is something along the lines of oryx transports you to the deep

[trim grotto]

Oh? What are you referencing?

[empty fern]

Oryx sends the enemy to the witness so the witness can turn them to taken

[trim grotto]

I'll leave the sourcing of that to Dova or Waltz or whoever
Sourcing things on mobile makes me sad

Only on PC does it make me glad

[trim grotto]

Of course I may do it myself if nobody does within the next... Two and a half hours? Roughly.

[empty fern]

[neon ridge]

What's the general opinion on this episode's story?

[sick yew]

I like it

I havent gotten around to reading the lorebooks yet

But im sure its even cooler then

[trim grotto]

It's interesting. Really brings a whole new angle to the Vex that has been missing for some time.

[sick yew]

Who cares about the Vex
Saint and Osiris going through it for a solid 2 weeks

Also literally anything Failsafe says is gold

Im a bit sad they didnt take Saints existential crisis a bit further

But also bro being back to his old self is great

[elfin jackal]

Hmm ... like to permantly kill a guardian, we just have to kill their ghost or drain their light somehow right ?

which enemies races have techs to do those ? Like i know OG Saint dies to vex like that, Cayde died when his ghost got sniped by a special bullet but what about normal guardians ?

always feels like for our guardian, we never see any enemies that legit is dangerous to our ghost most of the time

we just rez and fight on

[trim grotto]

Well, there's the original Thorn. It'd kill a Guardian outright, Ghost or no. The Devourer bullet that killed Sundance was derived from it.

The Red Legion had the Traveler Cage built with knowledge stolen from the Hive, and this was later perfected and miniaturised by the Psion Conclave, and used in the attempted assassination of Commander Zavala.

There's a whole slew of Hive witchcraft. Taeko-3 and her squad of nine are an example.

And of course our Ghost can simply... well, die. Ghosts can be shot by bullets, exploded, sheared in half by Arc spears of the Fallen, corrupted and destroyed by SIVA nanites, so on so forth.

Spider put that bomb in Glint, for example.

Ada-1 used Izanagi's Burden to kill some early rogue Lightbearers.

Petra Venj carpet bombed out some enemy Fallen... Wolves, I think... and accidentally wiped out a Guardian squad she was supporting because she didn't expect them to simply charge in blindly.

If gameplay weren't simply gameplay, our Ghost may well have simply been shot by now. Or exploded, or stabbed, or eaten, or what have you.

[slim girder]

Sundance was killed by a devourer bullet? That scorn baron weapon didn't look like anything related to that. Just a normal eliksni wire rifle.

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/the-murder-of-cayde-6

“Define Devourer Bullet.”

“Payload matches the ballistics of a Weapon of Sorrow or a comparable Hive implement.”```

[slim girder]

What? Where was all this and why does a scorn baron have a bullet that comes from a weapon of sorrow?

[elfin jackal]

Ahh i see

[trim grotto]

This lore came out about six years ago

[elfin jackal]

soo even normal enemies can technically kill our ghost by just shooting at him when he appears to rez us ? but eh gameplay mean our ghost never get shot while out in the open

[trim grotto]

Pretty much. Ghosts certainly are harder to kill due to their paracausal nature, but if they were unlucky... yes.

[slim girder]

Ghosts have always been fragile beings. Our ghost even says he lives in our backpack for safety

[trim grotto]

Metal and glass

[elfin jackal]

Ahh alright. The lore made guardians feels like just immortal super soldier so hearing them die in lore without too much explaination just make me go "how !?!?"

[trim grotto]

It's a heck of an Achilles Heel we've got

[elfin jackal]

Alright guess we are not too invulnerable

[slim girder]

Damn. Hmm I'm looking at the cutscene again and I genuinely thought it was just a shot from a scorn equivalent of a wire rifle. But still why is a devourer round being used? Like why does that kind of weapon have anything to do with the story

[trim grotto]

Andal Brask, Hunter Vanguard before Cayde-6, died because Tallulah Fairwind slapped him on the back too hard. He had to be rezzed.

Even Guardians die in silly ways

[elfin jackal]

oh yea i mean i know we are pretty fragile compared to other race but we are winning because we can just come back from the dead

[trim grotto]

Allow me to paint you a picture

[slim girder]

No. We actually have a lot of weaknesses. Like we're not any different from regular humans in terms of strength or anything.
One shot to the head of a guardian can kill them.

[slim girder]

General radahn is cursed ever to wonder

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/cosmic-wind

Picture this, but for Ghosts

Now picture a Devourer round as a way to cut through the bullshit, guaranteed

[elfin jackal]

👀 Damn the light just said no the bullet that hit us ?

well it doesn't feel that way in the gameplay but damn ... lore can be crazy

[trim grotto]

It can. It isn't universal, armour still exists for a reason, but still.

[slim girder]

It's strange discovering this for me. I don't deny it but it just feels like a strange thing to add into the lore. Like a scorn baron that even boasts about ghost killing just had a devourer bullet specifically for caydes ghost. A random devourer bullet.

[trim grotto]

This piece of lore is the reason why everyone goes wild when I say "no, Ghosts can just die to normal things", because the community has been brainwashed into believing that only paracausal effects can kill Ghosts

It is the most widely known and accepted piece of info about Ghosts, and it is wrong

So congratulations for somehow avoiding the most widespread misinformation the lore community has

[slim girder]

I've never thought that tbh. They're just tiny robots from the traveler. And once again our ghost says he lives in our backpack for safety.

[sick yew]

Do we know how exactly the crucible pulls it off so they dont blow up Ghosts on accident with their supers and shit?

[slim girder]

Like let's say all the way back in D1 if that captain tracking our ghost fired, our ghost would absolutely be destroyed

[trim grotto]

There may be something hidden deep in the recesses of the D1 Grimoire, but I don't know of one, no.

Well, except for this

"Burn myself or…? The ring of flames. In it, my enemies burn, and yet my allies can walk through that fire, untouched."

"Yes! But for you it is more. Is it not so?"

"Yes. I feel stronger inside the circle."

"Exactly. But the grace of Solar Light was never meant to be ours alone. In the beginning, Sunbreakers could share the warmth of the fire within. Friends that walked in the circle felt that warmth too."```

Extrapolation from this entry is all I can provide at this moment

[elfin jackal]

Hmm ok soo now i can see how guardians die their final death in battle of 6 fronts

[trim grotto]

Oh for sure

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-chaperone
Here's an example for you, Knight

[elfin jackal]

Soo basically even a random dreg can just stab a ghost after killing their guardian

[slim girder]

Again ghosts have always been fragile beings and so are guardians. We're just immortal humans with powers basically but we can still be killed by conventional means.

[elfin jackal]

assuming they find them

[slim girder]

Yes

[trim grotto]

They sure can
Simple Arc blade cut that Ghost in half

[slim girder]

Callum a shadow of yor stabbed their own ghost

[trim grotto]

Well

Actually, no

[slim girder]

I know. It was a trick.

[trim grotto]

Aye but his Ghost survived and they stabbed a random, already dead Ghost for that trick

[slim girder]

Correct.

Callum made a sacrifice to sell a lie.

[elfin jackal]

Hmm ok i can see why our guardian is considered bad ass. we are just soloing things all the time in the campaign / patrol even through in lore, our ghost can die pretty easily

[slim girder]

Yes, just because video games we have the extra resilience

But you can see in cutscenes guardians can get really beat up

[sick yew]

@trim grotto another lore question upon ye
Did we ever figure out why the lighthouses on Mercury sensed true guardian deaths?

[slim girder]

Cayde got basically bullied by scorn. Ikora fell over after a shot in the back by a vex hydra

[sick yew]

Why did the Vex do that

[trim grotto]

Well, I didn't, at any rate. I might ask the Cryptarchy about it some time.

[sick yew]

You could also point me the right way

I have my ways of getting information out of people

[trim grotto]

[ember storm]

I don’t think it was particularly important other than just slightly confirming that guardians (and probably by extension ghosts) have different frequencies of light

Which kinda explains why a ghost can’t just go and resurrect the first corpse it stumbles across

[sick yew]

But why did the Vex tamper with that in some kind of warning system way

Or do you suggest it was just part of their research

Left behind

[ember storm]

I don’t know those fuckers are just always up to something

[elfin jackal]

Hmm soo techincally in the lore, after we kill one of the lucent hive with a ghost, we can techincally just shoot the ghost instead of having to physically grab them and crush

[ember storm]

Probably something akin to guardian research that they just left behind

[sick yew]

Yeah

[ember storm]

Or was strong armed by Osiris

[sick yew]

I see

[trim grotto]

Absolutely

[elfin jackal]

hmm i see. guess the finisher is for gameplay purpose

[ember storm]

It is for gameplay balance yeah

It would be funny if the ghosts had an animation where they just dodged your bullet though

[sick yew]

[ember storm]

The issue with ghosts is just getting your hands on them at all

[warped karma]

gib name back

[trim grotto]

Felwinter’s shotgun cracked like thunder—once for the Warlord, and again for his Ghost.```

[sick yew]

https://tenor.com/view/matrix-dodge-neo-gif-13288848

[ember storm]

If their guardian is still alive then they shouldn’t be out at all (this is why Sagira died)

[sick yew]

The Hive ghost dodging my sweet business

[ember storm]

And even if the guardian does die, a ghost absolutely has a chance to immediately flee the scene

[sick yew]

You want to buy an o?
Meet me in #☀️off-topic-discussion

[ember storm]

Alak Hul’s ghost does it

[trim grotto]

So did Immaru

[slim girder]

@trim grotto i need help looking for something? Do we have a timeline events for dredgen yor? Like where he went, events that took place, things he did in his spare time, etc? I'm theorising.

I vaguely remember some bits and pieces

Like him telling his ghost to leave him, his confrontation with jaren ward and not much else

[ember storm]

Well Immaru just floated there for a solid like five seconds looking at Savathun like “oh”

The traveler being the biggest flaahbang in the universe is the only reason he actually thought to leave

Like he suddenly remembered we had every reason to just kill him

He’s weasely like that

[sick yew]

Im surprised he didnt hit us with one last "bye bye neon nerds" before he got outta there

[ember storm]

It was the first time he was actually met face to face with a threat

I think he was quaking in his nonexistent boots

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MkXv7r8PTTrm9b3ISdWWqindHSXMHu6qiThbpreq0Bc/edit?usp=sharing
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/cityage/#wiki_dredgen_yor

I'll leave you with these because I have to go to sleep

[slim girder]

Np

Cheers m8

I'll have a look

Damn imma need my PC for this lol

Phone layout is incomprehensible

[heady monolith]

hey mael, has any progress been made with deciphering the dread's language?

[slim girder]

Not much.

There's a person on YouTube who has saved quotes and stuff but there's no as people put it "rosetta stone" yet

So all we have to go off is voice lines the dread say when doing certain actions.

[heady monolith]

all i know is that whatever the tormentors say, it sounds derogatory

[trim grotto]

Yesn't
Sarsion went on a Eliksni/Dread language bender for a while and made some fascinating connections but other than that we're fairly in the dark
He made a number of twitter threads about it (and of course posts in the Cryptarchy)

[heady monolith]

i guess not enough information is out to help us decipher the language then

[trim grotto]

Not really, no

[slim girder]

The dread are made from other races so it's definitely possible some language from those races could be incorporated into the dread language.
Like if we ever get to see lubraen language that might give us a clue.

That's me just speculating though.

[heady monolith]

so their language is basically like minions, interesting

[slim girder]

Sure

If we ever got a tormentor saying a form of yes or no to something that'd be a step.

Just basic universal reactions to something could tell us a lot.

Like what's "hello" in dread?

[ember storm]

My favorite dread language is the AUUUUGHHH that tormentors yell when you kill them

Reminds me of when Taniks woke up in dsc

[slim girder]

My is a quote the tormentor does when use their vortex attack. Hang on lemme find it.

https://youtu.be/FfxGNlCSnnY?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/Dk6q6j1-C90?feature=shared

Love both these videos

I assume they're working on the weaver/attendant, husk and grim videos atm.

Maybe the herald in SE can also have something.

[sick yew]

oooo poeple are finally figuring out the dread language?

[small quartz]

does Spanish still exsist

the language

[empty fern]

Oh it’s happening?

[empty fern]

Maybe
English and what I think is Japanese (or some other eastern language) are used in the tower

[empty fern]

[umbral fractal]

[fresh zephyr]

CHI CHI

GRAGGHHHHHH SYAAAAAAA

I hope we see more Dread, especially if Fikrul is moving in to replace the Witness

Actually might be my favourite race. Not just ingame, but the music is incredible because they have the Dread/Disciple leitmotif that plays and that never ever gets old.

One of their motifs is actually very similar to the Witness's main theme, which is definitely intentional

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx5TrK_dFcAELHYvRILTfxMZeMBShwdfQG?si=vt8v8pBpsIu1tcMe

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-Zasj9ubKgCvgCwhBKNCJZ7Ah7S52cat?si=ETuc3XVOl9nTX45Y

two examples

the Oneirephobia one is very sneaky and easy to miss because of the key difference

I won't hyperfixate too much

😭

[neon ridge]

man this episode"s story feels like a cheap fanfiction

I'm all for romantic threads in stories, but it very much did not have to be the front of the whole story imo, Saint's internal struggle should have

[trim grotto]

It wasn't the front of the whole story, just this Act.

[neon ridge]

we had quite a bit of it in the first act too

I'll wait for the third to judge fully, but I think they're definetely over relying on it

[trim grotto]

It didn't really feel like the front of the first act, to me. It just happened to exist there while we uncovered the mystery of Nessus.

[neon ridge]

Eh, I struggle to remember a single dialogue where it wasn't brought up

maybe the last cutscene? I could be wrong

[static bluff]

do you remember every single line

[hollow hinge]

If it was a hetero relationship you wouldn't even notice it

But still, no
In act 1 Saint's personal doubts were front and center
Act 2 overcoming those doubts and now soon act 3 presumably kicking some ass

I can't wait for the new format tho

The episodes should've been drop all story for the act on day 1 from the start but at least we know it'll be like that for episodes 2 and 3

[ember storm]

To be completely clear, Saint’s entire struggle was with the fact of whether or not he was this reality’s “real” Saint

The only reason this was possible at all was because of the lengths Osiris went to try and save him

The struggles are literally rooted in their relationship

They’re not just going to not mention the fact that they’re ordinarily old man yaoi couple goals

The radio conversation where Saint wanted clarification on when the two fully accepted their feelings was a big part of him losing his sense of self

He felt like he wasn’t really the man that Osiris loved and was just filling the shoes of the one who was

Living the life (and all aspects within) that he was essentially just taking over

[hollow hinge]

Right and all that on top, but my main point was that if you gender swapped one of them then @neon ridge wouldn't be here yapping

The story this episode so far hasn't like... blown me away but it's definitely the best seasonal story that's released alongside an expansion in a long time

[cloud gust]

I swear to god a Subjugator once called me a "bitch ass motherfucker"
I am not lying I know what I heard

[sick yew]

Report em

[fast tapir]

to who??

[cloud gust]

The Witness

[fast tapir]

oh right

[cloud gust]

Although it's taken an... extended leave of absence

[tough kettle]

Its... dead!

[cloud gust]

That's not what I was told

HR told me that it took an extended leave of absence after being a... toxic employee

[tough kettle]

Toxic darkness employee (misleading because it does not work for darkness, it simply uses darkness...

[slim girder]

I wish this game did have some more coarse language sometimes.

There's a funny one in some neomuna lore

Third entry in the last days lorebook

[cloud gust]

In the first entry of the Echoes seasonal lore book, Failsafe says fuck but it comes out as Procreate due to her personality filter

[slim girder]

Speaking of failsafe, idk if it's just me who has noticed this but back in D2 vanilla whenever failsafe switched to her I'm just going to call it "sassy" version. Her computer turned red. But now in echoes it's the opposite.
And if you go to Nessus and talk to failsafe there it hasn't changed.

I think bungie forgot which one is supposed to be the other personality for failsafe

[dim minnow]

One of the Spire of the Watcher weapons has Maya saying "go fuck yourself" to Clovis

[ember storm]

Well we learned that her “sassy” version is actually her default

I think it’s mostly meant to be a retcon but all of her over the top cheeriness from Y1 was actually a filter being put on her in order to appear more pleasant or enjoyable

Echoes failsafe is the actual failsafe, after being stranded on a remote planetoid for thousands of years and watching all the important people in her life end up dying or leaving her

She admitted numerous times that if she still had access to the exodus black’s weaponry, she would’ve been a lot more “open about her feelings”, what with us essentially just ignoring her too

[dim minnow]

Dawning Delights lore book had Eva describe it as Failsafe's mind being split in 2. A positive side, and a negative one.

[ember storm]

And the weekly episode lorebook describes it as a filter she can just turn on/off depending on her energy reserves

[waxen zephyr]

Did the Witness die during the raid or excision?

[dim minnow]

Excision

It ran like a little bitch at the end of the raid

Excision started literally moments after the raid ended

[waxen zephyr]

I see, thanks

[empty fern]

It pulled a navota

[ember storm]

The witness talks as it just runs away at the end of SE and the opening for Excision references SE with “one fireteam broke its hold”

[neon ridge]

@ember storm those are actually good points, but I feel like it could have been written less artificially, the only part I really disliked were the transitions from "mission" talk to that, as in there was none

[devout nimbus]

Probably too sensitive a topic to be discussing here, thanks

[dim minnow]

I just want to see Saint to crazy on the vex

see him beat the shit out of the Conductor

might not happen, but it would be cool if Bungie lets us use a finisher on her

she is perfectly sized for it

[slim girder]

I'll have you know I visited her regularly because I liked Nessus. She wouldn't be angry at me.

[ember storm]

Staring at her blankly before accepting bounties isn’t good conversation

[slim girder]

Straight up mortal Kombat spine fatality but with the echo instead lol

[slim girder]

True

I do hope we get more adventures like in TFS but with the seasonal characters.
And I hope at least in episodes that the characters are changed afterwards if that makes sense. Like I hope failsafe is given an actual permanent home with us rather than her just going back to being on nessus.

Unlike seasons where we just never hear from a character again afterwards.

[dim minnow]

give her a frame she can control remotely

[slim girder]

I liked that season of the deep and season of the witch had connected stories with ahsa, Sloane and Eris whenever she transformed.

[slim girder]

Surely it could happen since we did it with Rasputin. Though he still wasn't able to walk around or anything.

[dim minnow]

yeah, one of the cooler parts of Witch was how the previous season had actual relevance to it

[dim minnow]

Rasputin had an exo frame which is a little different

[slim girder]

Right it was a prototype or something.

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that the exo body was containing him

rather than it simply being controlled by him

[slim girder]

Right and it also had Clovis bray inside it.

It was a just a body to house the ai

[dim minnow]

and Rasputin is a very complex AI

[slim girder]

I do wonder though. If we were to give a frame to failsafe would a tower frame be a better option or could an exo frame be possible. I'm sure the Bray tech labs have exo parts we could steal.

[dim minnow]

taking Failsafe and putting her inside of an exo body might not be ideal given her state

so simply having her pilot a frame would be much safer

[slim girder]

Or who knows maybe bungie will give us a small mission to retrieve failsafe on Nessus to properly bring her to the tower/helm.

No frame or anything just grabbing her i guess "core" or something

[fresh zephyr]

Why does the Witness refer to itself as "I" when we kill it in Excision when it's always referred to itself as "We": "We-I-I don't understand."

[ember storm]

The Witness was a sentient idea

It wasn’t like all the precursors were piloting a big mech

They gave up their lives to create something new, something sentient, but wholly built upon on one specific idea and point of their civilization’s existence

The witness had no capacity for growth, it was meant to be the eternal personification of their ideology

Destroying the dissenters cut it away from everything it was made from

The witness fully believed it was right because it was literally the only thing it knew

Its first moment of genuine self reflection was moments before its death when it was forced to face the facts of its creators not even supporting its purpose anymore

Basically, the power of friendship went and beat up a stinky old outdated social construct, and it couldn’t even comprehend that it was happening

For the first and only time in its entire existence, the witness was alone, its makers having left it

It just couldn’t understand

[fresh zephyr]

thanks for the explanation

[red saddle]

Amazing explanation

Didn’t have to watch the 10 hour byf video dedicated only to the witness

[empty fern]

Too bad

Go watch it

[red saddle]

Fine

See yall next week

[slim girder]

We Nuh uh'd the witness

[keen obsidian]

Is mithrax still alive or did he die in the excision battle?

[trim grotto]

He's definitely still alive.

You saw him in a post-excision cutscene, Chris.

[ember storm]

You can push Mithrax off the cliff in the Europa mission and kill him

[slim girder]

He will be in episode 2.

[ember storm]

What makes you say that

Was Mithrax even in the teaser

[slim girder]

His I'm going to call it mask was in the preview for the episodes that bungie showed.

[ember storm]

Wasn’t it mainly Variks

[ember storm]

Huh

[slim girder]

Gimme a sec

There's also Mithrax themed armour

@ember storm ^^

From the journey ahead video

[ember storm]

How does this equate to him being dead

[fast tapir]

"slaying vampires with a touch of splicer mixed in"

i cant wait aa

[slim girder]

Eido will also be a vendor in some way through what bungie calls potion crafting.

[trim grotto]

What?

That isn't what they were saying Waltz

[ember storm]

I think I misread

[fast tapir]

yeah..

[slim girder]

Someone asked if he died in excision. I replied saying he will be in episode 2

[fast tapir]

this armor is gonna be so nice

[trim grotto]

Did they happen to show Hunter concept art too?

[fast tapir]

i dont think they did

[slim girder]

No just the warlock and titan it looks like

[ember storm]

Fish hat

[fast tapir]

yippee!!

[ember storm]

Is that a little doll on the mark

[slim girder]

Scorn Warlock armour

[fast tapir]

they showed the hunter heresy armor though

[slim girder]

Yes

[fast tapir]

mmm

[ember storm]

So we’re technically getting 3 armor sets each episode

Do we know which is which for these

[slim girder]

The ones I posted are for revenant

Gimme a sec and I'll post the heresy ones

[ember storm]

No I know

But do we know which are the activity armor and which are the ornaments

Because there should be 2 sets of orna as well

[somber sky]

Strongest titan in lore?

[ember storm]

Me

[somber sky]

Also what class is drifter

[ember storm]

None

[somber sky]

@ember storm lies

[ember storm]

He’s drifter

Classes are literally social constructs based on specific combat forms

You can be a master of kicking, punching, dodging

Or you could just use a gun

Drifter just prefers to use his gun

[fast tapir]

his class is just one fucked up chef 😭

[somber sky]

Oh okay I see classes aren't lore accurate so to speak?

[ember storm]

He doesn’t apply himself to any class identity

He’s just difter

[ember storm]

They are because they’re concepts established in lore

[jagged badge]

No. Classes are in lore. Drifter just never fell into one

[ember storm]

Drifter literally just doesn’t care about them

[jagged badge]

Most Lightbearers do

[slim girder]

He's a guy who fights to survive. That's it

[ember storm]

as for the strongest Titan thing, it is arguably canon

The biggest contender for it would probably be Saint

But if your player guardian is a Titan, then you’re his main inspiration and hero

[slim girder]

Speaking of strongest guardians. I just learnt that ikora is a level 5 sigma guardian in the lore.

[somber sky]

So im the strongest titan

[ember storm]

And your feats have reached a lot bigger than some morally questionable crusades and killing a bunch of milk robots for a long time

You’re the most plot relevant Titan

[slim girder]

Like "sigma" is an actual term for guardian power

[fast tapir]

erm what the

[ember storm]

Tis an actual term in real life

[trim grotto]

Saint-14 has been called "The greatest Titan who ever lived", so there's that. But there isn't exactly an official Guardian tier list of strength.

[somber sky]

Nah we all are wrong

[fast tapir]

?

[somber sky]

Esoterikk is the strongest guardian ever

[fast tapir]

oh man

[slim girder]

Heresy armour sets for anyone interested

[fast tapir]

rahh i cant wait for the ship navigator sets

they look so cool

[slim girder]

Yeah that navigator looks dope

But I do really like the fingerprint design on the eris armour

[ember storm]

He’s the guardian of most infidelity

[slim girder]

If I had to take a guess the splicer armour will be the ornaments and the baron armour will be tied to whatever activity we do.
As for heresy I'm going to guess the navigator armour with be from the new activity which is supposed to be like the coil and shattered realm. And the eris set will be in the season pass.

[primal field]

Omg the titan navigator set has the warlock helmet from this season

We get the fucking half moon helmet

[ember storm]

Pretty sure it’s meant to be an actual navigator hat but hive themed

[dim minnow]

Oryx: I HAVE RETURNED AND I SHALL TAKE EVERYTHING!
Episode Heresy Titan:

[ember storm]

Even got the shoulder tassels and everything

[cinder geode]

So I'm the most plot relevant hunter

[ember storm]

No

That’s definitely crow

[cinder geode]

Damn the hunter armour fot both look sick wtf

[cinder geode]

He wouldn't be the most plot relevant hunter if I didn't kill him

[cinder geode]

What about next episode

[slim girder]

That's frontiers. Nothing is known about frontiers.

[ember storm]

What

Next episode is revenant

[ember storm]

Which was also posted above

[sleek matrix]

False info

Frontiers is a codename for the next expansion

[safe galleon]

so i know shaxx has the whole thing where guardians that own the vow are canonically married to him, but is this more of a formality/ceremonial thing or is shaxx genuinely just running the world's largest polycule? like would you be "married" to him the same way there are those companies who purport to give people a "lord/lady" title by leasing out a square foot of land in scotland or whatever, or are you just full-stop married. can i show my vow to shaxx in exchange for a candlelit dinner

like how far are we taking this, logistically. does everyone all get a day each cycle with shaxx or are they all kinda sharing or is it just a ceremonial thing

[slim girder]

Oh wait sorry I misunderstood. I thought they meant next episode as in after heresy..

[trim grotto]

Pretty much just ceremonial. It's nearly never been brought back up.

[slim girder]

@cinder geode heres some of the armour for revenant. Scroll down a little.

^^^^^

[dim minnow]

Fikrul: DEAD THING, AT LAST I WILL DESTROY YOU!
Episode Revenant Titan:

[slim girder]

I'm really curious as to if fikrul will behave the same as he did in forsaken. Like what will his reaction to crow be? And what is he actually doing with the echo? Like he never seemed like the type to have big plans.

Just followed whatever uldren said.

[fresh zephyr]

I mean

[fast tapir]

what does he mean

[fresh zephyr]

Everyone thought mara sov and shaxx were getting it on at one point

So I guess it's what they make of it

[fast tapir]

i.. shouldn't have asked

[fresh zephyr]

The person did ask if shaxx was indoctrinating everyone into a poly relationship

Seems like shaxx can't help himself

[tough kettle]

from what i understand, that is nothing but a misconception

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

[tough kettle]

i am very confused how that idea is actually accepted as canon by some people

[fresh zephyr]

It got revealed that that whole Fiasco they had where 'the helmet stayed on' was actually because of shaxx and mara meeting to commemorate the death of maras loved one

That I'm sure you know

[fresh zephyr]

Because people don't read lore ig

[tough kettle]

HOW THE FUCK DOES SOMEONE CONFUSE WHATS BASICALLY A FUNERAL WITH.... YOU KNOW WHAT

thats what confuses me

[fresh zephyr]

That funeral part wasn't revealed until years after the 'the helmet stayed on' line came out

It's more just headcanon

Hell I even assumed it was the case until I heard the lofe

Lore

[tough kettle]

the helmet stayed on because bro never takes off his helmet 🙄

[fresh zephyr]

Sjur Eido is the name

[fresh zephyr]

He kept the helmet on to hold back his tears

Or to not show them

[tough kettle]

yeah, that was maras lover

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

Mara sov used the wishboard to summon shaxx so he could read her a book

I think it was a Shakespeare piece

Because it was eidos favourite

He recited it by memory

[tough kettle]

oh yeah i heard of that

shaxx is actually wholesome.... shame on those who think otherwise...

[fresh zephyr]

How could anyone think otherwise

[tough kettle]

theres those people who talk about the helmet stayed on thing in a very incorrect way all the time

[fresh zephyr]

They simply don't know cut them some slack

Not everyone reads the lore

[tough kettle]

i guess i just hate people who spread information without fact checking it

[fresh zephyr]

It's moreso because it's funny

Funny to think of

Shaxx is really powerful tho

[tough kettle]

i think its stupid

[fresh zephyr]

People will be people

Shaxx is a very wholesome guardian despite being one of the most powerful

[tough kettle]

yeah he is quite nice

[fresh zephyr]

Don't mention the Iron Lords to his face tho!

[trim grotto]

Lord Shaxx allied with the Iron Lords. He just didn't become one.

[fresh zephyr]

He allied with them yes

Doesn't change the fact it took felwinter beating his ass to do it

[trim grotto]

I think you misremembered that.

[fresh zephyr]

I'm just exaggerating

[trim grotto]

Lord Shaxx defeated Lord Felwinter numerous times.

[fresh zephyr]

You're right

Just reread remembrance

[slim girder]

Lord shaxx to my knowledge has had 3 "people" best him. Sjur eido, ikora and the ahamkara hefnd

[fresh zephyr]

Yes

Eido yes ikora yes and the ahamkara thingymbob yes

[trim grotto]

And Cayde-6. Whether that was entirely legitimate, however, is another question.

[slim girder]

Right

Mans is just lucky I guess

[fresh zephyr]

He was def wearing lucky pants

If it did happen

[slim girder]

You know I would have really liked to see cayde in the pale heart admit to shaxx he cheated

I think it would have been funny

[fresh zephyr]

It would be an emotional sendoff

Thing is cayde is just a really good hunter

And hunters don't abide by rules

[trim grotto]

He raised his hand high to wag a finger under Shaxx's nose.

"—try to outrace my Golden Guns."

Two children ran by in a blur, laughing.

Shaxx shook his head slowly. "It was a tactical error. Won't happen again."

"Next time doesn't matter. You lost today, and today you owe me."```

[fresh zephyr]

I know about the bet

I meant if he did cheat

Because lucky pants are illegal in lore

Oh wow

There's my question answered

[empty fern]

Luck cheats

[fresh zephyr]

Wrooooong his pants are super lucky

I love the lore formats which aren't in a story setting and are more convos or stuff like this

It gives a nice twist to world building

[cinder geode]

"No I didn't illegally modify the holster, these are just really lucky pants!"

[stark fjord]

is maya an exo?

her design looks practically exo

but theres something off

[dim minnow]

she uses Lakshmi-2's form

since Lakshmi-2 had a copy of Maya's mind put in her via the Veil

she is very much an exo, but she has also been using the Echo of Command

[stark fjord]

is she and exo-vex amalgamation

she has exo parts amd vex parts

[dim minnow]

maybe

[slim girder]

It's a way for her to manifest physically. To my knowledge she's become like Asher mir where she's just digital within the network but using Lakshmi's body which is also her she can have a physical body to use the echo.

[small quartz]

i hath returneth

whats the limit that an exo can modify their body before their mind breaks

[empty fern]

We are not bringing cyberpsycosis into this

[empty fern]

No

[small quartz]

yes

i want my Exo to have a kebab spit

[trim grotto]

Well, a good example is...

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/test-no-312-exo-arm-attachment

[empty fern]

(I look for the nimbus version of it but I find none)

[small quartz]

"he feels like hes dying"
"lmao just evolve"

[trim grotto]

wait, no

wrong entry one moment

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/test-no-167-bonus-appendages

This one

[trim grotto]

that one was a human with an exo arm being stuck on
this one is an actual exo with extra arms

[gilded patio]

Are there any Omnipotent people in destiny?

(Ik, dumb question, but im a pvp player, not a lore expert)

[empty fern]

Yes

It’s ||me and that guy Steve||

[gilded patio]

Bruh, please mang

[empty fern]

Naur

I only speak the truth

And funky references

[gilded patio]

Aint that a kick in the head.

[empty fern]

[slim girder]

The winnower I guess

That and the gardener would be the equivalent to gods in destiny.

Like true gods not like the hive gods or anything

[trim grotto]

No. Though, the Nine are aware of nearly everything in the Solar System, and the Vex can simulate any future or potentiality that hasn't got paracausality involved.

[slim girder]

I want the nine again. Seems like after arrivals they decided to sit back and see what happens. Haven't really seen anything on them in the lore except for drifter looking at the jade coin that nine gave him

[dim minnow]

Oh yeah, the Nimbus edit where they have it

[empty fern]

Nimbus with the shawarma attachment

[slim girder]

Wonder who'd win between a cloudstrider and a guardian. No cloudstrider or guardian in particular just which type of defender of humanity would win.

[ember storm]

Guardian

[devout nimbus]

Easily guardian

[safe galleon]

a core part of being a guardian is that they have the ability to defy the laws of physics, i think i know who i'd put bets on

[dull raft]

They 100% would do that

[slim girder]

We've seen guardians die to stuff comparable to cloudstriders. I don't think it's impossible. Cloudstriders are 7ft tall cyborgs flying around on hoverboards wielding guns that would be similar to something regular humans would use as artillery.
One of Rohan's regular weapons was a machine gun which is what we consider a heavy weapon.

I also think a guardian would win but I don't think it'd be that easy.

[safe galleon]

if we're taking averages, 1 on 1, again i'm taking the side of guardians

the cloudstrider watching the banner of war zerk titan charging at them like a bull:

[red saddle]

Nimbus raid boss when

[fast tapir]

when they stop giving out star-garitas on rohan

[dim minnow]

I do think Cloud Strider Star Gazer took out at least one Warlord during the Dark Age

[covert stone]

Aren't your average guardians just... immortal super soldiers with barely any light?

[teal solstice]

Each guardian is like one of the avengers

[covert stone]

Like, The Guardian is an anomaly and not the standard. The average guardian can barely throw a super

[ember storm]

No, that’s not accurate

The average guardian just has mastery over a couple of subclasses because they’re more naturally drawn to them

The guardian is blank slate, a wild card, because video game protagonist

[west sigil]

I have a lore accurate reason on why hunters are the worst class

And I just need y’all to confirm it

Rose was originally a titans hand cannon

Then once a hunter put his grimey dirty disgusting hands on it

Boom, it became thorn a weapon of sorrow

Then once a warlock touched it

Lumina

[ember storm]

No

It was owned by Yor the entire time it was used

Also you turn it into lumina

The guardian

Not indicative of class whatsoever

[west sigil]

I’m like 90% sure it was a group of warlocks

[ember storm]

It wasn’t

It’s literally just a vaulted questline

You do it on your own

[west sigil]

Ah alright

[ember storm]

Nobody else was involved

Shin just gives the remains to is and basically goes “figure it out” so we go and make it into a weapon of hope

[empty fern]

More hope weapons when

[covert stone]

Waiting on the exotic ar version of Lumina mimicking Necrochasm being a weapon of sorrow like thorn

[empty fern]

So, red death but auto

[cinder geode]

We have a legendary version

[covert stone]

Not quite, Red Death doesn't shoot teammates to heal and doesn't grant a "Sky" related buff

[empty fern]

Red death drops an aoe like healing turret,

Now cope

[covert stone]

You can tell I have never used it

[empty fern]

Same

[slim girder]

More weapons of hope yes

We have I believe 5 weapons of sorrow now.

So we need 4 more weapons of hope to balance it out.

[slim girder]

It's kinda funny how a lot of D1 art had hunters using thorn or the last word.
I think some hunters prolly think dredgen yor was a hunter to begin with.

I guess hand cannon = hunter in bungies eyes back then.

Auto rifle for titans and scouts for warlocks.

[west sigil]

I mean have you seen the beginning of D2

It’s a hunter with last word (I think) a titan with sweet business and I don’t remember what the warlock has

[slim girder]

Titan has sweet business. Hunter has sunshot and Warlock has riskrunner.
Those are the first D2 exotics we ever saw.

[west sigil]

Was it Sunshot really?

[slim girder]

Yes

Even in the beta hunters got sunshot

[west sigil]

They were really telling us the best weapon in the game

(Sweet Business)

[slim girder]

Mhm

Man shit was so simple back then. No 3.0 effects or anything.

Weapon just makes enemies explode simple

Albino cabal was the biggest threat we knew

[west sigil]

I miss my Albino Cabal

[fast tapir]

now we got funny vex controlling lady

all i miss is our old velocity

they took something great

and CRUSHED it right in front of us

[ember storm]

You know there were D1 class exclusive exotic primaries

Hunter was ace, Titan was Fabian strategy, and warlock had tlaloc

[slim girder]

I was looking at osteo striga and saw that its flavour text is from the seventh revision of sorrow.

D2 doesn't have the full books of sorrow to read I don't think and eris sororicde lorebook is supposedly the 8th book of sorrow.

Would anyone be able to link the original books of sorrow for me?

I'm just watching the byf video on the topic rn

[jagged badge]

It’d be on Ishtar Collective

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/books-of-sorrow
https://docs.google.com/document/d/154alLH99gPZ5o-WoSO3GEKIxvQJI2iQpxfT22zyhsa0/edit?usp=sharing

[slim girder]

So all those calcified fragments are the books of sorrow? This is a bit of a dumb question but I'm unsure how verses work. Is a new verse a new book of sorrow?

[trim grotto]

I believe so, though that's more Lucida's domain. But yes, I think it is.

[slim girder]

Ok then.

Also I didn't know that the book of unmaking was also the 7th book of sorrow.

[trim grotto]

If I recall, that was made largely by the Dredgens and/or the Shadows of Yor as opposed to the Hive.

[slim girder]

Hmm ok. I thought it was something translated from hive tomes. The shadows in that lore book even talked about bribing cryptarchs to help.

[trim grotto]

Might be, it's been a while since I've browsed this. Not my preferred area of research. What part are you looking at?

[slim girder]

Gimme a sec to find the entry. It's in the book of unmaking lorebook. As the shadows were tracking yors footsteps they talked about how they had to bribe or persuade cryptarchs to help then decode the tomes.

@trim grotto 7th entry book of unmaking

They had to get on cryptarchs good side and as I said full on bribe them.

They need the tomes to translate the hive texts that yor had scrawled.

[trim grotto]

Ah, that's why I was thinking of the Dredgens.

[slim girder]

So the way I'm looking at it. Yor wrote the 7th book of sorrow which was translated by the dredgens, Eris wrote the 8th, and everything before that has been oryx, his sisters and many others that were involved with the hive.

Hmmm

So what's the 7th "revision" of sorrow then?

[trim grotto]

I'm gonna be honest: Normally I'm all for any lore of Destiny... but something about this particular era of Hive apocrypha shuts off my brain. Perhaps you could ask LadyLucia or Headquarters over in the Cryptarchy, they're rather fond of Hive.

[slim girder]

Yeah it does the same to me but since I've really been getting into anything thorn or "sorrow" related, I thought I'd try and get the full story from the first book of sorrow to the 8th.

But it's kinda jumbled which is why I asked here

I appreciate the help though.

[fresh zephyr]

I hope we get some Witness flashbacks in the Episodes

Like unironically, I really enjoyed the collectible which had Savathûn and The Witness talking to each other

Would love one between Oryx and the Witness

[pastel locust]

i like eris

[slim girder]

I don't think oryx ever actually spoke to the witness directly. All the stuff the hive did were through the worm gods who were most definitely influenced by the witness.

I could be wrong though

[trim grotto]

One can quite easily apply our modern knowledge and descriptions of the Black Fleet to the Deep of the Books of Sorrow. That would suggest it was, in fact, the Witness that Auryx spoke to when he became Oryx.

[slim girder]

Idk part of me thought that since the witness lied to the hive that it would never show itself to them. Like in witch queen they even said they'd tell sathona at the time that a great disaster was coming.

[ember storm]

Savathun was in direct contact with the witness for years

As was Xivu

Oryx was just the first among them

[slim girder]

Hmm ok then

I'd need to read more on it. Again I thought the witness was just doing everything through other means when manipulating the hive. Like the osmium king's familiar and the worm gods.

[trim grotto]

It did, until Oryx slew Akka for that right.

[ember storm]

The hive were really in the dark until Auryx declared himself Oryx, their god king

That was when they really got their groove

The manipulation ended when the first worms were ingested

[slim girder]

Noted

[outer dragon]

What?

Not in the books of sorrow

The pronoun use is wrong

The Witness uses "We"
The Deep that Oryx talked to said "I"

[dim minnow]

The Deep as seen in Books of Sorrow does line up a lot with the Winnower as seen in Unveiling

And the Witness states that it is not the Winnowe and the Nacre lore tab seems to confirm the existence of the Winnower

[ember storm]

Guardians: hoo boy, finally, the feud between light and dark is finally over! with the witness gone, there’s nothing left to pit the two forces against each other!

the deep:

https://tenor.com/view/the-deep-the-boys-gif-26305579

[red comet]

Do we actually know what radiolarite is? And if so what actually is it

Like it’s shaped for a purpose in those incubators but what for

[ember storm]

I think it’s just a byproduct of Maya screwing with radiolaria so much

[red comet]

Yeah but it says it’s shaped to a new physical structure because it’s resilient to the echo of command so like what actually is it for

[dim minnow]

We'll probably figure it out towards the end

Maybe it will be how we get back into Nessus' core

Either that or it's how we bypass the Echo

[trim grotto]

Yes, in the Books of Sorrow.

The pronoun use is different, but the Black Fleet fits the description of the Deep quite well.

[ember storm]

Nobody appreciates my deep humor

[trim grotto]

#📚lore-discussion message
This message was more about explaining the Deep to a different discussion but take a gander and compare it to the Black Fleet

The Witness has communicated in different ways before, and given that the Books of Sorrow were written by an external contracted writer years before the Witness was even thought of, I'm willing to overlook the pronoun difference in this scenario.

[cloud gust]

I thought The Deep was just another name for The Darkness

[trim grotto]

It is also that.

[sick yew]

It's always the darkness you should know that by now

But sometimes it is but it isn't but it still is

[small quartz]

Can people land on the traveller

[trim grotto]

I don't see why not

...well, I do, but they probably could, yeah

[heady monolith]

wasnt the last people that tried landing on the traveller like, exterminated

[trim grotto]

i do not know of what you speak

[heady monolith]

i remember reading about there being a lore card where a team of something tried making physical contact with the traveller and ended up getting deleted from existence

unless it was made up, then

[sick yew]

Could yes
But as you remember from the post Excision dialogue of Crow they put up a no flight zone around the traveler

Thats being enforced by the Cabal

So I wouldnt try it

[trim grotto]

no no

let dana try it'll be fine

[sick yew]

[sick yew]

Only thing I can think of was Joxxr trying to go through the portal at the start of Deep

Which well we all know how that turned out

I still find it kinda wild they they tried a probe which didnt work and just said aight surely sending a guardian in will work differently

Also how on earth did Joxer agree to that shit

Did the Vanguard just write an LFG post all like "LF1 Traveler Portal kwtd bring your own ship DM for inv"

[heady monolith]

as i always say before something goes horrifically wrong, 'eh, whats the worst that can happen'

[sick yew]

I mean if this was some random ass new light who was out to prove themselves id agree

But Joxer has seen some shit

Remember the Gambit Prime lore?

[slim girder]

Well no one knew something of that magnitude was going to happen. And i guess it was assumed if he died that his ghost could just bring him back.

Obvious that wasn't the case and he was welded to his own ship

[sick yew]

His ghost was with him on the jumpship

[slim girder]

Right but a ghost can just appear out of thin air which is how they stay safe. Like we get disintegrated constantly and like always our ghost just pops out ready to revive

And then when we're back up they just phase out back into the safety of our backpack.

[sick yew]

They dont just stop existing lol

They just teleport in and out of our actual backpack

If your guardian stands next to a nuke and it blows the ghost gets annihilated just the same

[jagged badge]

No?

That was just Ghost making a joke

We visibly don’t have a backpack

Ghosts don’t actually know where they go or how that works when they disappear like that

I believe Glint offers a theory to it back in Season of the Lost

[empty fern]

Wait they don’t know?

[sick yew]

Huh??

wait so if our guardian dies do they materialize no matter what?

Or can they just stay in their weird ass pocket dimension

[jagged badge]

Aghh I can’t find this clip

[slim girder]

They should yes. Again we get disintegrated and our ghost materialises right afterwards. There's even a lore entry about ghosts having a sort of mental imprint of our guardian for when the body is lost.

[sick yew]

Okay but in that case Joxers situation remains unchanged

His ghost was with him
He went into portal
Die
Ghost spawn
Ghost also die

[empty fern]

Wait
Was with him as in was out?
Or was with him as in was “in” him

[slim girder]

Joxers case is special because he didn't just die in any normal way. I'm not an astrophysicist but the portal inside the traveler is supposed to be like a wormhole of sorts and joxer was also shown visions of what can only be assumed to be his life before he was a guardian.

It was like he flew into a black hole kinda

[sick yew]

I personally interpreted it more like the traveler flashing all his memories at once because thats kinda what it does for us in the form of the pale heart environment

Regardless my initial point still stands
What the Vanguard pulled was basically the same as Clovis throwing an Exo into a vex portal excepting everything to go just fine

For Zavalas whole "I aint gonna lose another soldier in this war" shit this was just outright reckles and stupid

[slim girder]

He said that during final shape. That was after joxers death and everything. That's why he went into the portal himself along with ikora.

[sick yew]

hes been saying shit like that for years my man

[slim girder]

True but as I said a while ago they really did not expect something like what happened to joxer to happen. They sent a probe and nothing happened and it's not like Zavala ordered joxer. Joxer knew this could be dangerous, he volunteered for the job and he's a well known guardian. I'm sure Zavala probably even asked him if he was absolutely sure since they had no information on what might happen.

[sick yew]

The Vanguard ive come to know over the years would not have sanctioned such an operation is what im saying

Should have tried sending a dog through first ngl

[arctic mesa]

guys can any explain lore of the whole savathun and eris morns lore?

[trim grotto]

They both have rather a lot of history, and not all of it is directly connected. Could you be a bit more specific?

[arctic mesa]

ı mean the savathun dlc and shadowkeep

I did not understand a single word

[trim grotto]

That's still a lot of ground to cover.

Shadowkeep, stripped down to its core, can probably be summarised as Savathûn convinces the remaining Hidden Brood of Crota to erect the Scarlet Keep, and as we investigate it, we discover a Pyramid for the first^ time.

Eris Morn is involved here because of the Hellmouth Fireteam. During the Great Disaster a few centuries ago, which was an assault on Crota and the Hive on the Moon by an army of Guardians hundreds strong, a Titan called Wei Ning was killed. She was not the only one, hundreds of Guardians died, it was a terrible and awful failure.

Wei Ning's partner, Eriana-3, formed a 6 person fireteam out of grief and rage, to hunt down and kill Crota. This was comprised of Eriana-3, Eris Morn, Toland the Shattered, Vell Tarlow, Sai Mota, and... Omar Agah.

This fireteam also ended in failure. Eriana-3, Vell Tarlow, and Sai Mota, all died. Omar Agah was transformed, Toland the Shattered abandoned his fireteam to ascend into his current form, and Eris Morn was left alone in the deepest pits of the Hellmouth, her Ghost Brya dead.

Only with her Ahamkara bone shard from the Great Hunt, and Toland's journal, was she able to survive and eventually return, wielding the title of Crota's Bane.
This experience has left her as the foremost expert on the Hive that we know, apart from perhaps Toland the Shattered, who is significantly less trustworthy.

^sort of.

[arctic mesa]

thanks

[jagged badge]

Mael do you know how to find the Glint line I was talking about

[trim grotto]

uno momento

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t10yST_loI

[sick yew]

That shit is so random

Like just have them be in our "backpack" even if we might not physically wear one

I guess it sorta ties into how the Traveler can bend space all Tardis like?

[trim grotto]

Ghosts sort of merge with you, the Guardian. We've got multiple accounts of Lightbearers feeling their Ghosts through their palm, the same one we call them with.

[sick yew]

That sounds weird as fuck

Continue

[ember storm]

What “backpack” is there when we get resurrected in the basic naked armor ghost makes out of literal garbage when we’re resurrected for the first time

“Don’t worry, I’m still with you” isn’t what you have to say if you’re literally just sitting in a bag

[slim girder]

You know how cayde told us about the feeling he had when he died? Like how he could feel Sundance like they were whole again.

[sick yew]

mhm

[sick yew]

Mans chilling you say

Actually do ghosts get like tired?

Do they sleep??

[ember storm]

No

[sick yew]

Kinda sucks dont it?

Guardians gotta sleep

What do you as a Ghost do for those hours

[ember storm]

Watch National Geographic

[slim girder]

They probably just think. Or wonder around maybe.

Or chat with other ghosts even if they're around

Glint watches over crow when he sleeps.

[devout vine]

Catch up on warhammer

[trim grotto]

due to the neural link, when we fall asleep, they enter a terrifying state of semi consciousness, unsure of what's real and what's fake, unreal manifestations haunting their every move for hours on end until their chosen eventually wakes

or maybe they just read posts complaining about crucible on the VanNet

[heady monolith]

oh. i guess my guardian wont ever fall asleep again i suppose

[devout vine]

Just a titan whining about Storm Edge auto locking him over the comms

[trim grotto]

not to worry

i was, uh
lying

[slim girder]

My lore for my ghost is while my guardian sleeps they go for a joyride in my ship

[heady monolith]

too late, you put that horrific thought in my head and i cant afford to let aurora feel any sort of pain

[ember storm]

Guardians finally getting a rest after a long day of getting exploded by moths

Ghosts about to meet the hat man:

[devout vine]

Look on the bright side.
Aurora won't get shot and killed off by Harley quinn like a joke

[heady monolith]

what is this reference

[devout vine]

Suicide squad kill the justice league

[heady monolith]

oh

ive been waiting for the inevitable day it becomes the ps plus game for the month to play it

[devout vine]

It's doggy...don't bother

[heady monolith]

still quite curious to try

[slim girder]

Your curiosity will hurt you.

Not even Sony would put that crap on PS plus

[sick yew]

Browse Reddit
Argue about weapon drop rates

[ember shuttle]

look through their guardians vault, see some of the disgustingly awful rolls and realise "i picked the wrong one"

[slim girder]

I mean if they picked the wrong one. Nothing that little laser beam they have can't fix.

[hollow hinge]

night terrors but every night and 10x worse

[red comet]

I’m convinced there’s an eliksni populous on earth this worshiping the great machine shit is too similar

[empty fern]

[cinder geode]

Murder drones episode 7 be like

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-house-of-wolves-house-of-judgement-variks-the-loyal-gif-26847157

Do you want to learn how to speak to the fallen Guardian?

Talk to friends....in secret

[modest berry]

Who are the nine?

[ember storm]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dust

[ember storm]

No

[unreal pecan]

anyone have any statements proving oryx wrote the books of sarrow

[dim minnow]

said so in the books somewhere

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/calcified-fragments-insight#books-of-sorrow

this entry pretty much explains why Oryx made the Books of Sorrow

in-game, we collect pages of the book through collecting Calcified fragments

[sick yew]

In light of the exotic mission being upon us soon

Whats some of you peoples predictions story wise

[empty fern]

It’ll be vex related

[slim girder]

We meet the copies of maya and her research team. This is just what I got since the exotic is called choir of one.

[sick yew]

Cap

[empty fern]

Fine

[sick yew]

Would be a nice tie back to Insight Terminus

[slim girder]

The auto rifle has the Ishtar logo on the stock so it has to be something to do with them surely. We did also see that logo in the black garden last season so maybe that's tied to it.

[sick yew]

Well it is still Maya Sundaresh she might have just put it on there cause yee Ishtar gang

[slim girder]

True. The mission is called encore as well which means for an audience to say "again" so maybe this mission has a loop of some kind.

[sick yew]

Thats what I was thinking too

Watch it become a Hollowed Lair situation

Where we just gotta do it over and over canonically

[slim girder]

Or maybe the mission switches layouts each run? Encouraging us to visit it regularly

[sick yew]

Thatd be interesting

Roguelike type stuff

[slim girder]

Like what if all of us were doing different runs for the first time

Some did one thing while others did another

[sick yew]

Datto guide would go crazy for such a thing

[slim girder]

That pyramid shown in the trailer could be a que to a maze of some kind maybe.

[sick yew]

Could but what I think we can assume for sure is that its her lab

Judging by all the Vex parts and stuff we saw in the trailer

Also not to forget that one shot from the Episode trailer where she takes apart a human replica

my guess is shes reasearching how to best merge Human and Vex in that pyramid

[slim girder]

That's definitely possible. Like the top or centre of it could be the lab.

[sick yew]

Mhm

[slim girder]

Not human but exo most likely. As that would allow her control over the individual.

Being able to use vex to make exos is very dangerous ambition

[sick yew]

Im trying to find the shot rn

Cant find it

Was probably in the vidoc

[sick yew]

I dont mean that one

Theres that shot where she takes apart a exo/human replica looking face

[slim girder]

Oh that's in the journey ahead video

[sick yew]

I wonder if thats one of the Exo from Neptune

[slim girder]

Just before they speak about revenant

[sick yew]

Yeah

I dont have time to skip through that rn

But you know what I mean

[fresh zephyr]

As long as it's better than the Undying Mind stuff in Undying idm

That was horrid

[heady monolith]

paragon faithe 👁️👁️

[silver iris]

The Devs never clarified the home star system Riis was in did they?

[trim grotto]

No, they didn't.

[fresh zephyr]

Muhahaha

[analog salmon]

Does Maya Sundaresh still hold racist beliefs against the eliksni?

[empty fern]

Probably not

[jagged badge]

Maya would never have met the Eliksni to have any personal experience with them

However she may very well blame them heavily for the state of humanity knowing what they have done in the past

[slim girder]

Mithrax also hasn't done anything within this episode so she has no knowledge that the eliksni are allies now.

As far as she knows the black fleet is finished so she's all about bringing the golden age back. But has no clue what life is like now.

[little gorge]

did maya even know of the eliksni until this point?

does she have lakshmi's memories?

[slim girder]

Lakshmi has her memories

Maya probs knew what the eliksni were and that's it.

[little gorge]

they didn't ever come to neptune though did they

oh i guess she probably knows what the vex know about them

because of all the time she spent in the vexnet

[slim girder]

I mean before maya came to Neptune.

[little gorge]

had they arrived to sol at that time

i thought the exodus indigo left when the collapse started

[slim girder]

That's actually a good point. Now I'm curious. The story that's told is that the fallen, hive, vex and cabal were all post collapse.

Oh wait no. The vex were known about

They were already being researched and everything

[low gyro]

i might be dense but why does maya's story seem way too similar to osiris / s14, just that it kinda went the wrong way?

[jagged badge]

Iirc, that is an intentional parallel that Osiris notes even in the Veil Containment logs

[low gyro]

hmm. i guess, that's why the episode is named echoes as well

[hollow hinge]

I thought it was because the 9 light and dark infused entities that escaped out of the traveller were named echoes

This first one being echo of control iirc

[jagged badge]

Well, yeah, but it doesn’t mean it can’t have multiple meanings

[velvet flax]

||yirix mentioned in exotic mission bungie remembered her||

||only been like two years||

[static herald]

Before the exotic mission:

After the exotic mission:

[swift spindle]

does radiolaria turn you vex?

[trim grotto]

Live Radiolaria can do so, yes.

Can and has

As Lightbearers, we're resistant, but... Well, Kabr the Legionless and Asher Mir are more than just cautionary tales.

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-dance-destiny2-ace-ventura-tutu-bungie-gif-25012240

Need more vex ghost stories

[buoyant dragon]

are we allowed to talk about spoilers here?

[empty fern]

Spoilers from todays content? Yea (but preferably bracket them to spoiler proof it)
Leaks that aren’t official? No

Brackets are 2 of || on each side

[clear knot]

So... who is Maya Sundaresh and why should I care? I've only played from Wish onwards in terms of seasonal, and have played all currently available campaigns

[ember storm]

Well the post campaign for Lightfall went pretty in depth with it

Essentially, Maya Sundaresh was responsible for everything that put the Ishtar Collective on the proverbial map, which originated as a golden age research group