📚lore-discussion

[modern lodge]

Like

The massive monolith that the raid takes place in is not the witness right

[sick yew]

No

Alltho there is evidence that was the idea at some point

Concept art shows various stuff that has the Witness be the entire damn thing

[modern lodge]

Right so after the raid you know how light is spilling out from a crack on the monolith

[sick yew]

Yes

[fast tapir]

that is so damn cool wtf

[sick yew]

Yeah there was some really interesting concepts

[modern lodge]

So that's just the "body" of the witness before they detach and flee to where we kill them

[sick yew]

Witness bird, Witness snake

[fast tapir]

ah damn i wish we got witness bird

[sick yew]

Nah I believe the light spilling out is simply a crack in the travelers light

[modern lodge]

It's coming from the black structure

[fast tapir]

where can i find these btw

[sick yew]

The Monolith is most likely the place where the Witness was experimenting with the traveler, preparing the Finale Shape and such

So it makes sense that it would house a direct connection to the lights source

[sick yew]

Artstaion, hang on ill give you the artist names

[modern lodge]

Because there is no way the raid takes place in the witness, the mf is not that wide

[sick yew]

Aaron Cruz is one

Kai is another

Both are on Artstation

Additionally simply search for "Destiny 2 Final Shape"

And youll come across tons of stuff from environmental artists, vfx breakdowns, models and contept/poster arts

[modern lodge]

Right

[sick yew]

Well the raid model of the Witness is absolutely gigantic but no its not the structure

The Monolith is merely the Witnesses "base"

[modern lodge]

That's what I wanted to confirm really

[sick yew]

Alright

[modern lodge]

Some people say the witness is the monolith and whatnot

[native sequoia]

I was literally about to talk about these. Man, as someone who is really disappointed with the visuals of the witness, its a crime we got what we got and not one or all of these.

[modern lodge]

So I was just like yeah they aren't that big

[sick yew]

Please keep in mind they are concepts for a reason
They will always be cooler than what we get because some stuff is simply impossible to pull off ingame either because of how complicated or time intensive it is

[modern lodge]

Translating designs into a workable 3d model must be a nightmare for complex concepts

[sick yew]

Id say we can be lucky the Witness looks as cool in the raid as it does

[modern lodge]

The witness looks mad

[sick yew]

Even that must have been a nightmare

Having to not only make it look good but also move well

[modern lodge]

The arms especially with how they seemingly pass through each other

[sick yew]

Or split into new ones

[modern lodge]

Yeah like the witness design is eldritch god like and it's cool

[native sequoia]

Yeah, i understand that but i still think that they could have done better than what we got. As a final boss of 10 years worth, its not threatening at all. While the lore is cool, seeing the witness brings no fear or emotion to me at least. And i think thats a massive failure on its design and cant be entirely written off as "impossible to pull off".

[modern lodge]

The witness looks fine

[native sequoia]

ok

[sick yew]

I strongly disagree
The Witness is easily one of the best raid boss models we ever had

When making stuff like this you always need to balance whats achievable and how much it costs in both manpower and money to pull that off
Had we gottan a Witness thats outright as big as half the patrol zone youd need an entire team working on that model alone and also structure the fight around that fact similar to Riven except god knows how many times bigger

And ontop of all that you must run into technical limitations at some point
With the Witness model we got being more than twice the size of Oryx I cant imagine they'd be able to increase the scale even further without the technical limitations presented by last gen getting in the way

[modern lodge]

Oh yeah get rid of last gen

[sick yew]

Fair point

Unfortunately
Money

[native sequoia]

Its not the size that i have an issue with personally. Its the general feeling. While yes, they have done a good job of making it imposing, it does not give me the feeling that i personally was hoping to see. Rasputin has a good representation of how grand something can feel with audio alone. While in my opinion, the greatest enemy we have ever faced lacks that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsTBjuXxIqE

Idk, it is what it is at the end of the day.

[sick yew]

Understandable point tho the Witness is not supposed to have the same sort of reaction you get from Rasputin speaking

The Witness always has this calmness to it (excluding specific parts ofc)

Thats like its whole thing

Calm, collected and focused on one thing and one thing alone

[modern lodge]

Also the witness basically invades your mind

Also is Rasputin speaking actual Russian or is that a made up language that sounds similar

[native sequoia]

Russian

[sick yew]

And all this is reflected even in its "boss variant"
They still retain this idea

[sick yew]

Inverted Russian afaik

With a shit ton of voice filters ontop

[trim grotto]

It's manipulated Russian. Some of it is backwards, some inverted.

It's very difficult to parse.

[sick yew]

Inverted or backwards

Call it

[modern lodge]

I completely forgot Rasputin is gonners

[fast tapir]

rest in peace red

[sick yew]

@native sequoia but you get what im saying? The core idea of the Witness is a different one
Riven is another interesting example imo, its straight up a beast, an animal but theres a clash because it still speaks to you in a normal voice
These opposites is what create the feeling of when you fight Riven

[native sequoia]

Yeah, i get you. Again, the thing that bothers me the most is just the lack of emotion i feel towards the desing. But again it could just be a me thing. Like dont get me wrong, this is really cool and all but just not the emotions i was hoping the final boss of all of destiny would give me.

[sick yew]

Mhm I understand
Unfortunate kinad

[native sequoia]

I just think more could have been done with it. But as you said it could just be a time/ budget constraint. (even tho i think they have more than enough money to do so. But modern business does as modern business does.)

[sick yew]

It not as easy as just throwing money at a screen and suddenly you got a perfect game
Im more glad we ended up with what we got
Who knows how the Witness would have looked had the DLC not been delayed

[native sequoia]

At the end of the day, im happy we got something good and not bad. (like lightfall. That shit made me quit for a year)

[sick yew]

Funny that you mention LF tho because I think it has a case where the concept art makes an ingame kinda meh looking model look insane

Rhulk looks absolutely insane in that artwork and its practically identical to his ingame look

[modern lodge]

The concept art for nezarek is fucking nuts

[modern lodge]

This mf looks actually scary

[sick yew]

Its interesting imo because as I said theyre basically identical

But certain stuff simple works better in one medium than another

[heavy ivy]

Any lore that states things exist beyond all of physics and not just in a higher dimension?

[modern lodge]

I think if nezerak had that colour scheme so just him but darker it would work I reckon

[sick yew]

Elaborate please

[trim grotto]

Well, there's paracausality. It's literally in the name. Parallel causality, i.e., parallel to physics. Is that what you mean?

[heavy ivy]

Can just mean time

[heavy ivy]

X such that X is outside of the set of physics

[sick yew]

What Mael said yeah
There is the thing called paracausality which is basically stuff that breaks the rules of physics

Our Light for example

Or the Darkness

Are such forces

[trim grotto]

Or Wish Magic of the Ahamkara, places such as the Ascendant Plane and Black Garden

[sick yew]

Black Garden is paracuasal too?

Huh

[heavy ivy]

Higher dimensional constructs can break some laws of lower physics too

[sick yew]

Makes sense ig

[sick yew]

The Ascendant Plane would be such a higher dimension yeah

[trim grotto]

grows grows grows the garden grows grows grows
forward and backward into time

[sick yew]

Wait huh

Time?

[trim grotto]

time!

[sick yew]

I thought the Black Garden was just a funny "everything grows fast"

place

thing

[trim grotto]

The Garden grows in both directions. It grows into tomorrow and yesterday. The red flowers bloom forever.

[sick yew]

I gotta check up on my Black Garden knowledge

Do we know its origins nowadays?

[heavy ivy]

Yeah that just seems like basic time transcendence

[trim grotto]

Not unless you're betting all your chips on Unveiling, no.

[sick yew]

Exactly thats what I used to believe
But since Unveiling is....complicated these days

I remember back in the day the leading theory was that it was a part of the Garden Game before time that survived

Which does explain the rapid growth

[trim grotto]

Definitely not. The Black Garden is a realm of paracausality that even Lightbearers should fear.

I walked beneath the blossoms. The light came from ahead and the shadows of the flowers were words. They said things but I will not write them here.

At the end of the path grew a flower in the shape of a Ghost. I reached out to pluck it and it cut me with a thorn. I bled and the blood was Light.

The Ghost said to me: You are a dead thing made by a dead power in the shape of the dead. All you will ever do is kill. You do not belong here. This is a place of life.

The Traveler is life, I said. You are a creature of Darkness. You seek to deceive me.

But I looked behind me, down the long slope where the blossoms tumbled in the warm wind and the great trees wept sap like blood or wine, and I felt doubt.

When my Ghost raised me from the sea there was a thorn-cut in my left hand and it has not healed since.```
A mere vision of it scarred Pujari permanently, and even their Ghost could not fix it.

[heavy ivy]

Where does that state that it's beyond all of physics?

[trim grotto]

The effects it has are paracausal. Paracausal is definitively, as I said earlier, parallel to causality and physics.

Causality is cause to effect. A system we know and measure by our known laws of physics.
Paracausality is a parallel system which has cause to effect, but the in between is a system entirely alien to physics. We know what causes an effect, we know the effect, but how it gets there is something new.

Acausality, should the term come up, is effect without cause. At least, known cause.

[sick yew]

Isnt it physically dangerous too?
I remember back when Prince Uldren went there and weird shit was happening with the Cabal and even his own hands or something

[heavy ivy]

It's like you didn't read my debunk

[trim grotto]

I have no idea what you mean.

[jagged badge]

[heavy ivy]

Of course you don't

[sick yew]

[trim grotto]

okay how about you quit the tone and have a chat
i'm open to discussion but not like this

[jagged badge]

Would you care to be cooperative in this discussion instead of hostile?

[heavy ivy]

Sure I can join VC in a few minutes!

[jagged badge]

I’m not doing a VC lmao

[trim grotto]

Undoubtedly!

"They come 'ere to pray, ser. They're makin' vessels ou' of themselves. They're the wors' things ever to be, ser. They 'ate existence."

"How do you know this?"

"Oh, frum the seeds, ser," the Legionary says. "Do yeh see them?" And without hesitation or second thought, he punches the emergency medic release on his helmet. The pressure seal breaks and a ring of black gel sprays out, hissing. The Legionary slumps over. His helmet tumbles into his broad lap.

Beneath the layer of gel, the whole surface of his skull has the pitted texture of a strawberry. Thousands of tiny seeds glisten in the Cabal's flesh.```

[jagged badge]

Text is just fine, and more conducive to a conversation like this since you can easily refer to messages and cite sources and such

[trim grotto]

I meant in this chat. I would like you to elaborate your point and I can respond further to it.

[sick yew]

Yeee thats the stuff I remember

Actually on that note

Why do some Cabal need pressure helmets but Caiatl doesnt

Or Calus

Are they just too cool for that shit?

[trim grotto]

That is something we finally got actual answers to instead of Word of God

Same answer, mind you, but actually in the lore

[sick yew]

That answer being?

[trim grotto]

But any reply from Niik is lost when the Pyramid Scale is kicked out of the cargo hold. It rolls down the ramp, losing pieces of its black hull as it goes, then tumbles a few feet, landing near Niik and Ana. The Cabal that steps out of the Thresher has ground her tusks down to flat disks, etched with symbols inlaid with gold. She, like many of Caiatl's retinue, wears no pressure suit, instead having chosen to undergo pressure acclimation training to safely survive in Earth's atmosphere. 

[modern lodge]

Neat

[sick yew]

Oh wait thats the sparrow tab no?

[trim grotto]

'tis!

[sick yew]

Somehow I forgot that part but yeah thats good to know

[modern lodge]

Also I like how the vex are right now

I think it's cool how individuality is being introduced

[sick yew]

Imo it does kinda take away a bit from what makes them scary but its also very needed to write them properly for an ingame narrative

[modern lodge]

True

But you can't really have an unfeeling machine be a villain when they don't have any individuality

The last time the vex were a decent threat was quoria right

Blade transform it what ever it's title was

[sick yew]

The Dreaming Mind or some shit

But yes

[sick yew]

Thats what I meant

[modern lodge]

Is it not quoria blade transform?

[sick yew]

In order to have them as better ingame villains you need to take away from what makes their concept scary

[trim grotto]

Quria had a few titles.

[sick yew]

Yeah its weird

Ingame it was the dreaming mind iirc

Or I think thats how Saint introduced it

[modern lodge]

Yeah did a quick googli

A vex made to understand the sword logic right

Erm IP grabber

Mods kill that guy

[trim grotto]

Essentially. Crota cut into their realm, and Quria was the Vex that led the invasion. It learned of their worship of the Worm Parasites and eventually, as it was Taken, simulated Oryx.

[modern lodge]

Right

[jagged badge]

It started as Quria, Blade Transform but became the Dreaming Mind when it was Taken

I…believe

[sick yew]

Was it the minds name even before the invasion? Cause id be an insane coincidence if the Mind thatd later simulate sword logic and shit was named Blade Transform

[trim grotto]

“I’ll cut them apart,” Crota said. But just then, the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic.

I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful.```

Basically they made it to figure out the throne world

[sick yew]

So it was named like that on purpose

[trim grotto]

ye

[sick yew]

Makes more sense

Banger name tho

Also imagine a Vex hive god like the shit Eris went though but for well a Vex

Thatd look pretty cool I think

[sick yew]

I swear if I hear another "lore accurate guardian" in response to the video where a guy Solo'd the Witness imma lose it

[jagged badge]

Fr

I need to start seeing people commenting it on videos of blueberry fails instead

That’s way more accurate

[sick yew]

I mean like Zavala quite literally stated that a fireteam beat the Witness in the monolith

A FIRETEAM

[blazing wasp]

Lore accurate Guardians are weaker than gameplay Guardians

[pure tree]

do the other vex collectives apart from the precursors, descendants, sol divisive and now the choral vex still exist or have they all been consolidated into the main one we encounter in D2?

like virgo prohibition or aphix invasive?

[blazing wasp]

Likely, but not in sol

The sol collective appears to be the main one in sol

[pure tree]

i see

wait, belmon transcendant mind and its subordinates arent from sol, but 2082 volantis, and since theyre also the same collective as sol collective vex, would that imply that sol collective is the main or at least a major branch of the vex?

[blazing wasp]

Could be, could also just look the same for convenience

Bungie wouldn't make a new vex design for a single strike

[pure tree]

fair

[ember storm]

They’re vex specifically built to invade an area of sol

I imagine they’d just be part of the sol divisive no matter where they originate from

Their entire existence is just to invade and foothold on Europa

It’s not directly stated but it looks incredibly similar to Argos, Planetary Core of Nessus, so I’m assuming the two just had the same function

Only difference is Argos was able to fully establish itself and its defenses by the time we found it

[sick yew]

Argos my beloved

They should bring back Eater im not even joking

[pure tree]

also do we know how big nessus is? like roughly

[blazing wasp]

Well it's a real, existing centaur

[pure tree]

not irl nessus but in destiny, because it looks like its been enlarged by the vex

[blazing wasp]

So I'll just google

[blazing wasp]

Probably not by much given that the exterior still looks partially "Natural"

[pure tree]

it doesnt look 60km big in destiny tbh

[blazing wasp]

Estimated to be 60km in diameter, so probably not much more than that

[blazing wasp]

Cause they didn't make it with accuracy in mind

[pure tree]

true

[blazing wasp]

That's why the dreadnaught isn't consistent in size

Cause it looks badass, not accurate.

[devout vine]

So guys...quick lore question, have we; the guardian; ever supposedly learned new forms of wielding light and dark apart from being taught to control strand by Osiris?

Cuz I feel like all our subclass subtypes are just gifts rather than actual learned methods

[jagged badge]

I mean, Osiris didn’t precisely teach us

We helped each other to understand it since we discovered it

[devout vine]

I see...but since the Witness is now dead, and the existence of the Winnower has been known for some time. Wouldn't it be prudent for us, following these next episodes, to find new opportunities to get stronger ourselves?

[jagged badge]

I’m confused what you mean

[devout vine]

We got the three new light subclasses at our resurrection site in the Pale Heart because of the Traveller

Wouldn't it be progressive for us to find new ways of wielding light and dark?

[jagged badge]

Is that not what we already do?

[cinder geode]

Are the nine stronger than the witness?

[jagged badge]

No

[cinder geode]

Well we've been told they're extremely powerful

Or it's Implied

[warped karma]

Is there anything stronger then the witness?

beside us since we yk defeated it

[dim minnow]

there was an entity that once came very close to defeating the Wtness

[jagged badge]

That doesn’t make us stronger than the Witness

[dim minnow]

the only reason why is lost was because it stopped to try and offer peace/another way

[jagged badge]

I’ll remind you that we exploited a weakness and had to channel the Traveler’s Light directly to undo the Witness

[dim minnow]

which the Witnes took advantage of

[jagged badge]

We didn’t simply slay it through our own strength

[warped karma]

oh i see i see

[cinder geode]

Probably the gardener and the winnower if they're entities and not concepts

[warped karma]

who are those? the first time i heard those names

[cinder geode]

Read unveiling

[jagged badge]

They had to rely on us to preserve the Solar System from the Witness

[warped karma]

will do

[jagged badge]

They can clearly do funky things but they don’t possess the power to just fight the Witness

[warped karma]

man Destiny lore has so much to it

[deft zephyr]

Savathun with her cunning could become a bigger threat than the witness.

[cinder geode]

Try learning dark souls lore

[warped karma]

i stopped at Elden rings family tree

[jagged badge]

I dunno about that. It’s not like Savathûn wants to freeze the entire universe

She’s still a threat for sure but she’s not about to go do anything close to what the Witness did

[cinder geode]

We've killed her twice

[jagged badge]

Love that Savathûn died three times in her own expansion

[cinder geode]

And the amount of times saint killed her

[warped karma]

wasnt that like 100?

if not more

[ember storm]

Plus Eris slit her throat with a sunset Shadowkeep sword

[jagged badge]

How do you know it’s the sunset version?

Maybe she got a new one after it got reprised

[devout vine]

She never grinds with us...
Course it's sunset

She was smart enough not to listen to Datto

[cinder geode]

I have a feeling that maya sundaresh is the conductor

[ember storm]

Well congratulations

For some reason a lot of the playerbase is vehemently denying the evidence of that

I don’t know why

[cinder geode]

Or sotaria

[ember storm]

Reminder that Starcrossed had a vex built Ishtar monument in it for zero reason

[cinder geode]

Either maya or Sotaria

[ember storm]

Maya’s device to hook up to the veil was the Conductor’s chair, in which her body was found with zero apparent cause for death

Sotaria is just the basis for the cloudark

It’s not active in any capacity

I don’t know why an echo landing in Nessus’ depths would have anything to do with it

[cinder geode]

Sotaria is a mix of a warmind and a vex mind(?) Or just a warmind with the vex ability to simulate things

[ember storm]

It’s not really either

They fabricated their own vex ID essentially

All it did was tap into the vex network and hide neomuna from the network

[cinder geode]

Rasputin being rasputin shut sotaria down in the spire of the watcher

[ember storm]

It’s like

Basically a kind of failsafe ai? But with vex tech

Either way it’s not like a big goblin they have in a basement or anything

[cinder geode]

Hold on if sotaria was made with vex tech couldn't it just escape the pillary bunker on mars through the vex net?

[ember storm]

honestly i don’t really remember spire lore

[cinder geode]

It was during the collapse I member someone asked sotaria to simulate how many routes they could take to leave the sol system but then sotaria detected the pyramid ships which lowered the possible routes to just 2 and rasputin was not happy apparently and locked her in the pillary bunker on Mars but sotaria managed to make a sub mind

[uneven canyon]

Do we have any translations for the Dread language?

[jagged badge]

Not yet

Well

It’s complicated

Would you like me to explain?

[stark fjord]

is there a reason in lore as to why wizards dont have legs

[empty fern]

No

[ember storm]

Bungie didn’t wanted to model closed robes and dangling legs

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-destiny2-warlock-gif-9714241

[ember storm]

Shocking that the player model has a better budget than rank and file enemies with way more moving parts

[empty fern]

Extremely so

We can’t even see our face most of the time

[ember storm]

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/4/49/Apprentice_of_the_Cryptoglyph.png

Do you think they give free piercings

[empty fern]

Hmmmm

No, but I am interested in their dental care

[ember storm]

Wanna see something interesting

Basic taken ogre, an enemy that’s almost never used

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/thumb/b/b9/Taken_Ogre.jpg/1200px-Taken_Ogre.jpg

[slender ether]

What is glimmer? I know its a fuel and currency and a programmable matter but, where does it come from? It feels really similar to SIVA with how its described.

[ember storm]

They’re not really similar in function

Siva was designed to be a tool for easy and fast construction for colonies after they landed on their destination

[slender ether]

Yeah siva is a machine and glimmer isnt, but both can be used to create anything

I think?

[ember storm]

Glimmer is just a resource that can be consumed as fuel or used as other materials

All siva does is move around and use whatever’s already available

[slender ether]

I see. Where does glimmer come from? Since its programmable it sounds like something from the vex

[ember storm]

It’s just a golden age invention

[slender ether]

Was it clovis who made it or random scienctist #6580

[ember storm]

It doesn’t really matter

Most likely some team or whatever

It’s not attributed to any individual

It’s like trying to determine the person who invented using wood, basically

[slender ether]

With the new vex mythocast themed weapons. Do we finally know why the vex mythocast exists?

Or do we have to wait a later act?

[ember storm]

They’re not really mythoclast themed

Or related to the vault of glass and its lore in any way

you can just tell from the way the Echoes weapons are made that they have the bases of standard human weapons

So they’re either just something failsafe cooked up, the conductor, or just some weird loot

Mythoclast is a vex gun in every sense of the word, but built specially for human hands

Normal vex guns don’t even function unless an actual unit is using them

[slender ether]

Yeah, its just that they very much had the style of vex myth. Shame we dont know yet.

[ember storm]

They’re just vex themed

One is literally a vex gun and the others are city weapons with vex themes

[empty fern]

Bungie, where is my exotic torch hammer void primary gl

[ember storm]

Basically just ex diris tbh

[empty fern]

Pain

Fighting lion vex ornament when

[dim minnow]

Ex Diris is a Hive Boomer

Which is arc

You know we've had actual Cabal, Eliksni, and even a Hive weapon as exotics

But not a Vex one yet

Mythoclast doesn't count

Since it is built for human hands and isn't a weapon actually used by Vex

[ember storm]

I mean in function

[empty fern]

You want, solar linear special for hobgoblin rifle?

[dim minnow]

Not too bad of an idea

Torch hammer gl sounds interesting too

Hmmm

Maybe a slap rifle as a special sidearm

We already have an exotic that does the Wyvern lance attack

[empty fern]

We do?

[dim minnow]

Vexcaliber

It's projectile attack is void and spreads like the Wyvern lances

[empty fern]

Oh yea, guess that counts

[trim grotto]

It also shields like a Wyvern

[empty fern]

Wyverns have shields?

[gritty sphinx]

why does shaw han have boots of the great hunt?

i know his trash ass wasnt in last wish

[ember storm]

Well canonically last wish gear is just gear from the actual great hunt

He probably just found it at some antique store

[wheat flower]

Big glowing things on the sides

[ember storm]

It’s also the third vex specimen we researched this episode

[trim grotto]

Yeah it's like, their main thing

Their wings are immune and block shots fired to protect other Vex

[uneven canyon]

What’s the brood called on the moon?

[dim minnow]

Hidden Swarm

[trim grotto]

I like to call them the Heretical Swarm

[dim minnow]

we can only hope that Kinox survived Osiris' Omni-man moment

[sick yew]

So we know that the Conductor is a hunter player judging by her fashion

[empty fern]

Oh no

[blazing wasp]

possibly hunter

Had a pessimistic and nihilistic view on saints existence the instant they talked

Adds up

[sick yew]

[royal adder]

who is maya sunderesh? i was watching cross's video and he said she could be the conductor

[jagged badge]

She was an Ishtar researcher from the Golden Age and one of the founders of Neomuna

[royal adder]

oooh

[jagged badge]

She has a fair bit of lore but if you wanna watch stuff that’s probably more immediately relevant, the Veil Containment logs tell an interesting story about Maya and her experiments with the Veil

I can find the playlist for those videos on the DLV if you wish?

[royal adder]

sure

[jagged badge]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&si=rIMq8T354BhChblm

[warped karma]

i want to get into Destiny lore does anyone have a point where i could start?

[cinder geode]

My name is byf's 10 hour video

[warped karma]

oh boy

i'll just watch it in parts

[jagged badge]

Ehhh

That’s not really a necessary watch

I got into lore just fine without watching much of Byf

[trim grotto]

Honestly, going topic by topic is always fun. There's the Ishtar Collective, and you can always come to chats like this one to discuss topics.

[sick yew]

Technically shes also Lakshmi-2 no?

Wasnt that a plot thingy at some point

[jagged badge]

I don’t understand exactly how that worked tbh

[sick yew]

Same here

Answer will probably come down to either "Weird Vex shit" or "Weird Veil shit"
Or both

[empty fern]

Veixl shit

[ember storm]

Well all the exos were just immediately dead upon close proximity to the veil

Instead of treating her dead colleagues with respect like actual people, Maya constructed what would eventually be called Lakshmi, using the process similar to how the witness was created, using all the dead exos along with herself

I think the real Lakshmi was just among the dead exos and she settled on using her body? Can’t remember

Esi was also not very happy about it “speaking with her voice” which I think means that Lakshmi’s voice was also Maya’s voice

If I’m right, I wonder what prolific voice actress bungie could bring back in a time like this

[sick yew]

But did the human Maya not survive too?

[ember storm]

She died in a later incident concerning a device she called “the conductor’s chair”

There was no exo maya

Maya used all the exo corpses and herself along with the veil to create what we knew as Lakshmi

[sick yew]

Ok so Lakshmi isnt actually Maya but just some collection of dead exo

Ah

[ember storm]

The real Lakshmi was just another exo that died in the first veil incident

[sick yew]

Yes

Good to know

[ember storm]

Her body was used so eventually the name was too

But her voice was reportedly Maya’s

[sick yew]

So why or rather when did Lakshmi leave

[ember storm]

After Maya died, Esi just genuinely couldn’t stand being in the same room with it

Which is fair

I think one of the early cloudstriders just dumped it off on earth

how much “Lakshmi” remembered of neomuna, I don’t think we know

But it was early enough for her to genuinely witness the fallen’s destruction of London

[deft zephyr]

Does the veil have a will of its own similar to the traveler?

[jagged badge]

It is apparently conscious/sentient yes

[sick yew]

Actually?

[jagged badge]

Look at the lore for the ritual vendor SMG

[sick yew]

What if you
give me a tldr

[jagged badge]

What if I

Didn’t

The lore/flavour text says something about the Veil naming itself as the human mind named itself blah blah blah consciousness stuff

[deft zephyr]

Is the veil still inside the traveller as far as we know?

[ember storm]

Veil was never inside the traveler

The witness just created a link between the two and got into the pale heart

Veil has just been sitting under neomuna the whole time

[echo brook]

i still don't understand what the fuck the veil is

every time osiris mentions it my eyes roll

[ember storm]

The traveler is the primordial source of light, veil is the same for dark

Everything else is a big unknown which is kind of the point

We still don’t even know what the fuck the traveler is

[deft zephyr]

Oh gotcha. Weird that the veil isn't more... active?

[echo brook]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-shocked-face-stunned-pokemon-shocked-not-shocked-omg-gif-24112152

[cinder geode]

I think it's the gardener but that's just me

[echo brook]

well thanks

[ember storm]

If you subscribe to the theory that it’s the Winnower, well

It would just make sense to do fuck all

[deft zephyr]

I feel as if the traveller and the veil are the physical manifestations of the gardener and the winnowers powers but the actual figures exist outside of our reality.

The traveller and the veil I feel are more similar to tools than the the actual entities.

[cinder geode]

It could be argued that the black garden is the garden in the unveiling

[deft zephyr]

Oh shit really?? That would be insane. I don't know much about the black garden.

[ember storm]

There is no garden

Unveiling is upfront about everything being a metaphor

There was no “garden”

[cinder geode]

Due to the thing the final encounter is in the garden of salvation looking like a stump

[ember storm]

The black garden may have ties, but it was never a literal garden where anything happened

[deft zephyr]

The "garden" could be a metaphor and an actual physical space.

[ember storm]

If anything it’s some weird cultish vex replication

[ember storm]

Unveiling is upfront about it; it was never a space to begin with

It was before spacetime even existed

[deft zephyr]

But then what are the gardener and the winnower? It seems at least the winnower is a real entity. How much of unveiling is metaphor

[cinder geode]

Probably since the vex were created during the gardener's and winnower's clash

Elegedly

[ember storm]

That’s a very large assumption

In its entirety, Unveiling is speculative in nature

Nothing should be taken at face value

[cinder geode]

I mean they exist outside of time so I'm just saying it would make sense-ish

[ember storm]

All we know is that the Witness subscribes to the ideas presented in it, or is the source of the documents to begin with, like a sort of religious doctrine the precursors made

we did get Unveiling delivered to us through the moon artifact, which also told us to venture into the black garden

[static bluff]

daily #📚lore-discussion "unveiling is a metaphor and unreliable" posting

[fast flint]

curious, but are disciples able to annoint other disciples? mainly pulling this from the fact Rhulk gifted Nezarec his glaive in what i consider an annointment ceremony

maybe that was just rhulks influence as the first disciple, but it would be really interesting

[ember storm]

Rhulk’s only successes are basically only ones the witness made him do

[plucky estuary]

sigh gotta love those

[ember storm]

If he appointed a disciple I doubt it was ever without direct orders

He could barely find a suitable civilization to follow the black fleet to begin with

[plucky estuary]

i have a question are the monsters we fight near the pyramid ships on the traveller that are names after Rhulk, his daughters?

[ember storm]

The one time he did he accidentally got them to destroy themselves

[ember storm]

No

They’re genetic copies based on his lubraen dna

[plucky estuary]

oooh okay i thought they might be copies too

[ember storm]

Tormentors are based on Nezarec

Psions are probably just actual psions

It’s not like the witness needs to clone them

[plucky estuary]

yea ik about the tormentors i thought Rhulk had kids out here like Oryx lol

[ember storm]

Husks seem to be some weird experiment of hive

And Grim are just some new species altogether

Either fully conquered or subsumed by the witness

[wintry wyvern]

Reading buried bloodlines lore tab

And. Apparently we kill fikruls son

Makes me wonder if hes there doing what he’s supposed to, or if his group got seduced by the dragon

Probably the second part. Lot of bone worshipping happening

[ember storm]

He doesn’t have children

He calls his scorn his “children”

And called Uldren “Father”

Scorn have steadily been developing minds of their own outside of their nature as frenzied zombie puppets, but living under Fikrul’s command is still reducing them to his whims

[broken relic]

Also people not knowing the difference between a Metaphor and not existing at all

[jagged badge]

Hm?

[ember storm]

Unveiling chatter

Just the usual

[analog torrent]

What's Gimble-4's gender? Got the impression he was male and Destinypedia says the same but I can't find proof. Need to know for archival purposes 🙏

He was the Titan in Ghost Fragment: Gimble-4's Ghost who got asked to record the Deathsong and got corrupted instead.

This is referring to the K1 expedition crew right

[u:01] Finally! Another First Light technician.
[u:02] All right, let's see about you…
[u:03] Hoo boy. Another one.
[u:04] DNA degradation alone makes this impossible, but even if I could bring you back, who'd put you back together again?
[u:05] Inextirpable psychological trauma. Indelible psychosis: violence, paranoia, obsessive behavior. And… yup, some kind of hallucinatory mechanism. Damage to the occipital lobe and limbic, and then those weird formations in the parietal and temporal. It's like something rewired your brain but did it through your DNA.

This also raises questions about the extent of a Ghost's regenerative abilities
So if a Lightbearer is completely atomized or otherwise has irrevocably damaged DNA (ex: if they lingered in the Manhattan Nuclear Zone too long), would they be perma dead?

[shadow warren]

Is there a reason we haven’t seen much egregore after encountering the glycon

Also, why does it look so similar to the veils root system thing

Just bc darkness?

[trim grotto]

Well, there was the Egregore on the Leviathan. And Titan.

[shadow warren]

Oh yea titan I forgot

The glycon appeared in haunted tho right? Which was with the leviathan

I was curious about why it hasn’t really shown up after that time I meant

I just figured as something to do with darkness it would have become more common as time went on

[trim grotto]

Chosen

[shadow warren]

Ohhhh whoops

[trim grotto]

There is a connection to the Veil as well though, yes. I don't have time to elaborate, however.

[jagged badge]

You mean

[empty fern]

[broken relic]

I don't have time to elaborate on why I don't have time to elaborate

[sick yew]

Saint do indeed be going through it man

[ember storm]

You know shit is rough when Osiris starts stammering in his tangents

[sick yew]

I can't handle a breakup man imma be real

[ember storm]

I honestly still can’t tell if it’s intentional or Oded just being “what the fuck does any of this mean”

[sick yew]

Elaborate

[ember storm]

I distinctly remember a few voicelines over the years where it sounds like Oded Fehr (the va) is just stammering or smiling out of genuine astonishment at the science jumbo he’s being paid to say

Stuff during Wish about the veil especially

[sick yew]

Ah

[cinder geode]

I mean our ghost can rev us when we disintegrated ourself while training with strand

[sick yew]

Honestly in the audio log on the helm I believe it's intentional

[ember storm]

Shaxx hit a guardian so hard they lost proper speaking functions, and self destructed to fix it

[sick yew]

Shaxx backhanded a guys head off his body

[ember storm]

He gave a hunter a congratulatory pat and forced them to involuntarily roll dodge

[dull raft]

you can also hear a pop noise when he puts his fists together lightly during zavala's speech before loading into excision for the first time (or in narrative mode)

[analog torrent]

Hmm maybe it's different when it's a first time rez vs a normal rez where the Ghost already has the dna

[trim grotto]

Correct.

[empty fern]

How’s lore chat feeling about the romance drama with Saint and osiris

[small quartz]

Time for a question

FUCK IS A VEIL

FUCK IS A COULDARK

FUCK IS LIGHTFALL

[small quartz]

... drama?

WAIT DID THEY BREAK UP

[empty fern]

I won’t say

But do listen to the most recent helm messages

[ember storm]

The traveler is the primordial source of light, and it stands to reason that there would be something for darkness

[ember storm]

The mainframe neomuna as a whole is built upon, from defenses to their sophisticated VR system that allows its citizens to still be active while their bodies are in a safe cryosleep during times of strife

[ember storm]

Traveler got beat up a little bit in the opening cutscene I guess

[small quartz]

So is that why they didnt wanna model those ugly neomunans

[ember storm]

They would just be normal human models

But that’s not really the point either way

[broken relic]

Macguffin
Nobody cares
Traveler got a bit roughed up

[trim grotto]

14 refers to the amount of husbands he has had in order to divorce them and take their money

[ember storm]

Pressure from saint’s father

[empty fern]

Saints father was actually Santa

[hollow drum]

is there a reason random ass black armory fallen are present in the saga mode missions

[empty fern]

No

[ember storm]

The saga mode missions aren’t canon to begin with

I don’t know what you’re expecting

[cloud gust]

Lore gremlin said it therefore it’s true

But yeah I love my old man yaoi this episode

[dim minnow]

does this mean we get 2 Dawnings?

[empty fern]

Real

[small quartz]

whats a dawning

[dim minnow]

Dawning is the Christmas event for the game

[empty fern]

Chrithmath

[small quartz]

...

may be shooting myself

i missed christmas

[cloud gust]

Lmao

[patent swallow]

have the choral vex always been in the game or are they a new thing

[dim minnow]

new

[sleek matrix]

we actually got some new info explaining a bit more about the echoes

[cloud gust]

The Conductor is 100% Maya Sundaresh
She (or one of her 227 clones) found it while navigating the VexNet and stumbled across it.
Also, she used the term Conductor while experimenting with the Veil

[small quartz]

Is Echoes Act 1-3 a JoJo Reference

[sleek matrix]

yea it defo is

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/staring-press-close-staredown-train-gif-22975756

[cloud gust]

Every mf who knows Maya is gonna he like “I saw it from a mile away”

[dim minnow]

it seems that each echo will be different

[sleek matrix]

yea they been aloot of lore build up for maya for ages

[dim minnow]

the one the Conductor has in particular allows one to compel minds

[sleek matrix]

that would make alot of sense

each echo having a specific power

[cloud gust]

What is also possible is it being Chiomi or however you spell it
Which would explain her disdain for Saint and her insults

[fast tapir]

the new lore page confirms its her right?

[cloud gust]

I haven’t read it yet
But I don’t doubt it

Bungie isn’t trying very hard to make it ambiguous
It’s definitely her

[fast tapir]

yeah

[dim minnow]

she really looked at the Last City and thought we might as well have been a bunch of neanderthals

[cloud gust]

I mean compared to Neomuna we are

[dim minnow]

no

not really

[cloud gust]

They are far more technologically advanced

[dim minnow]

yes

but the Last City is not like that

[fast tapir]

but we have cool space powers from the floating orb

we are not the same

we are better

[dim minnow]

plus Neomuni are bitchmade

[fast tapir]

fr

[dim minnow]

Nimbus better shut down the Cloud Strider program

[cloud gust]

Lmao

Nimbus is gonna casually rest his arm on a lever that just so happens to be the CloudArk power lever and fucking kills everyone in it

[dim minnow]

Bungie has been doing a good job in having Seasons continue with stuff from expansions

like Witch did for WQ and Wish for Forsaken

hoping that we get an Episode that continues developing Neomuna

[cloud gust]

Those dudes have been in lockdown for more than a year lol

[dim minnow]

they've been in the CloudARK ever since the later part of Y3

[cold onyx]

Wait so Rasputin is a super computer basically

[sleek matrix]

it doesnt seem likely

[cold onyx]

Me trying to understand byfs 10 hour video

[sleek matrix]

much more than a super computer

hes way more advanced

[cold onyx]

So like what is he

[cloud gust]

Superweapon almost

[dim minnow]

so advanced that Vex couldn't simulate him

[dim minnow]

an AI

but a very complex one

[cold onyx]

What’s a vex simulation

[dim minnow]

capable of surpassing humanity

[dim minnow]

a simulation

[sleek matrix]

yea rasputin pretty much can beat vex

[cloud gust]

And a very… morally grey one

[dim minnow]

a very precise one

[sleek matrix]

and thats no small thing

[cold onyx]

So Clovis made Rasputin to kill the traveler

[cloud gust]

Yes

[dim minnow]

Mihaylova made Rasputin to surpass humanity

[cold onyx]

And he made it in the deep stone crypt

[dim minnow]

Clovis took Rasputin and upgraded him to kill the Traveler so he could usurp it

[dim minnow]

no

DSC is related to Exos purely

[cloud gust]

Exos come from the Deep Stone Crypt
Rasputin wasn’t really made anywhere

[cold onyx]

Rasputin can like make weapons

[cloud gust]

He did reside on Braytech Labs for the longest while

[cloud gust]

Yes
Warsats
Orbital lasers

[cold onyx]

So how many years was it from the witnesses birth to the collapse

[cloud gust]

Eons

[sleek matrix]

yea the witness has been around for eons

[cold onyx]

So why didn’t the witness try to final shaping everything earlier

Or was that the collapse

[cloud gust]

Why do you think is was chasing it around

And it kept running

[cold onyx]

That’s why is abandoned the eliksni

[sleek matrix]

the witness sent nezarez with the veil to do the final shape

thats what the collpase was about

but

[cloud gust]

Also before it could attempt to do it durning the collapse Savathun killed Nezarec and stole the Veil away from him

[cold onyx]

And put it on Neptune

[cloud gust]

Correct

[sleek matrix]

its presumed savathun killed nez and put it on neptune

without savathun

[cold onyx]

Then witness sends calus to get veil

[sleek matrix]

the tfs would of happened long ago

[cloud gust]

Nezarec straight up said that Savathun killed him

[cold onyx]

Did the worm gods betray the hive

Or tricked

[dim minnow]

tricked

[cold onyx]

What was the trick

[cloud gust]

Technically yes
Although it was mostly The Witness and Rhulk’s doing

[dim minnow]

by the Witness' command

[cold onyx]

They had to keep killing

[cloud gust]

The Traveler was about to bless the Krill

And of course The Witness didn’t want that

[dim minnow]

the Worm Gods sent an inert worm spawn to the Krill where it was found by the Osmium King

[cold onyx]

And they gave the worms to savathun xivu and oryx

[dim minnow]

the worm familar would tell the King that the Syzygy (massive god-wave) was coming to wipe them all out which drove him to madness

[cloud gust]

I thought he was crazy before thag

[dim minnow]

because of this, Taox, his advisor, would have him killed

[dim minnow]

he was getting rather old, but the talk of doom was what set Taox off

[cloud gust]

Krill didn’t have long lifespans really
Cloudstrider length

[dim minnow]

then Taox tried but failed to kill his remaining heirs (Aurash, Xi Ro, and Sathona)

[dim minnow]

unless you were a mother

Sathona would then claim the Worm Familiar which told her the same stuff it told her father

[cloud gust]

This lead them to “Drown in the Deep” and find the worm gods hidden in the ocean of Fundament

[dim minnow]

then she (and her sisters by proxy) werre guided by it to the Worm Gods who gave them the bargain that would make them the First Hive Gods

and just like that, the Traveler's plans of uplifting the Hive were gone

[cloud gust]

Before this Rhulk had dived into the ocean and killed the massive creature that had jailed the worms and Rhulk offered Xita (mother of the worm gods) plenty of sustenance for her children in exchange for her to turn herself over to make the proto-worms

[cloud gust]

It could also be argued that this is why the Traveler chose Savathun

[cold onyx]

Why did Rasputin abandon humanity

[cloud gust]

He never “abandoned” it
He just activated a protocol where he had to make necessary “sacrifices” that he deemed would be better in the long run

Although I’m not sure why he blew up anyone who tried to escape Titan during the collapse

[cold onyx]

3.5 hours of lore pre d1 is crazy

[cloud gust]

There is indeed a lot

[cold onyx]

Savathun stopped the final shape is not smth I expected

[cloud gust]

I mean who would she be able to trick if everyone was a statue

I’m a firm believer that she doesn’t care who benefits from her scheming (whether it be our enemies or us) as long as she gets to trick people

Like she pretty much helped her sister take over Torobatl
She took over Gahlran
The Dreaming City curse was because of her
And more
Now that her worm is gone and she doesn’t need any tribute, I think she just does it for shits and giggles now

[dim minnow]

it's really just part of her inherent nature

the Worm Gods gave them their morphs based on their respective natures

[small quartz]

whos Eramis

[dim minnow]

known as the Shipstealer previously

[small quartz]

so a goat

[dim minnow]

was captured in the Prison of Elders during the Reef Wars

then was released at the start of Forsaken when Variks snapped and caused the riot there

she would then go on to try and reestablish the House she was once a member of, the House of Devils

however, she found little success adn decided to start a new Hosue called House Salvation

they set up on Europa where Eramis confronted the Pyramids and sought to claim Stasis for the Eliksni

however, we obtain Stasis ourselves and stop her before she can empower her army with Darkness an attack the Last City

as a result, she was encased in Stasis for about a Year

then the Witness released her and had her search for various relics that were pieces of Nezarec's corpse

she fails, and is forced to watch as her house is converted to Scorn or Wrathborn by the Witness and Xivu Arath

at the end of Seraph, she tried to use Rasputin's Warsat network to destroy the Traveler, but is stopped when Rasputin sacrificed himself to save the Traveler

then in Season of Defiance, Eramis saved Mithrax from an explosion that was part of a trap while trying to warn us not to go in beforehand

after that, she's been trying to leave Sol to try and reunite with her wife Arthys, but has been having trouble with that

likely because Shaxx turned her fueling depot into a Crucuble map

also worth noting that during Season of Plunder, she saved Eido (the daughter of Mithrax) from Lucent Brood

[echo brook]

Who's Ghost is this from ||this weeks Nessus story mission?||

[fast tapir]

bro what i did not see that 💀

[warped karma]

me neither 💀

my guess would be maybe from the Conductor if they are a guardian? or were one

[fast tapir]

considering Maya Sundaresh is most likely to be the Conductor, no

[echo brook]

I don't know if it's actually relevant though

It's in one of the end rooms of the mission on Nessus, and you can pick it up, but nothing happens

No voice lines or anything

[pure tree]

Can I talk about act 2 or is it still considered spoilers here?

[ember storm]

https://youtu.be/PHVlaH1wCqw?si=xgVUE1DRBRkbvWNJ

[echo brook]

Shouldn't this then give you a quest update?

[ember storm]

If you don’t have the quest nothing happens

So

You could just walk into these places unaware and find the ghost and the final shape statues; people posted about it for weeks when FS first released

[echo brook]

oof

thanks

[tough rampart]

Where did you find this?

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[gritty sphinx]

shaw han has the last wish legs

[jagged badge]

Yes

[empty fern]

Forever

[tough rampart]

who is the drifter actually, i never understood his role in the story

[blazing wasp]

The drifter is a very old guardian, predates the term guardian even

"lightbearer" as they called them, he's also classless

wandered from settlement to settlement trying to get by, seen a lot of shit and done a lot of shit

and been involved with several important people

such as felwinter, a iron lord

also visited a tomb of nezarec

In recent times, hes useful for his expertise with darkness, and gambit

gambit being a pretty good way to safely dabble into darkness

drifter is also very clever, and has used his skills in a variety of stuff to assist us, including in season of arrivals

so clever he helped osiris with calculations on the sundial which is effectively a time machine.

[tough rampart]

whats drifters story with shin malphur?

[blazing wasp]

Thats a question im gonna leave for someone else

[tough rampart]

thanks for answering btw

[frosty zenith]

Are there any vex we have befriended?

[ember storm]

No

[frosty zenith]

Or is it AVAB

Oh

[ember storm]

They’re a collective that’s essentially like that of bacteria

Individual cells might be different but it’s entirely inconsequential

They just seek to conquer, consume, and replicate until there isn’t anything left to do

[frosty zenith]

Oh damn, I knew they were a hive mind but just seeing as how we’ve befriended other enemies races I was just curious , I appreciate the reply

[blazing wasp]

they're not a hive mind

[static bluff]

asher mir is frend

what was the story behind the friendly harpy on nessus? I found info about the ones asher controlled and the one that was used to learn about stasis, but the one on nessus was different and I didn't find anything about it

[dim minnow]

I don't think we got much on that one

maybe it was related to the Conductor

[static bluff]

the conductor? back then?

[dim minnow]

who knows, the fact it wants to see us do emotes and such is weird

[static bluff]

it does? I don't remember anything like that

we're talking about the same one right

[dim minnow]

oh wait nvm

[static bluff]

the one I'm thinking of was from a nessus adventure

[dim minnow]

I was thinking about the one from Europa

the Nessus one I believe came from the captain of the Exodus Black

[static bluff]

related to the exodus crew I think? but I don't remember anything beyond that

[dim minnow]

the Vex digitized his brainwaves or something like that

[static bluff]

poor captain

[dim minnow]

Getting captured by Hive vs getting captured by Vex

neither are good fates, but Vex is a lot worse

captured by Cabal and Eliksni are better, though Eliksni is worse than Cabal since they'll sacrifice you to their Prime Servitors

[fast tapir]

will the cabal sacrifice me to a pack of feral war beasts?

[ember storm]

They’ll probably just execute you after interrogation

Shadow legion on the other hand, uh

I dunno

Defiance was never clear on what they were doing

[dim minnow]

the Shadow Legion were treating the prisoners decently

compared to everyone else and what we expected

Defiance really seemed to be the Witness distracting us

[small quartz]

Okay so

what if a guardians body is ripped to shreds

how is it revived

cuz afaik it just revives the corpse

[dim minnow]

Ghosts can revive a Guardian's body from pretty much anything (so long as certain conditions and means aren't met/used)

even if a Guardian is completely atomized their Ghsot can bring them back

[small quartz]

Oh...

so i cant brutally mangle a guardians body...

lame

[dim minnow]

you can, they'll just probably be pissed once their Ghost brings them back

or you can perma-kill them

[small quartz]

tee hee :3

[trim grotto]

Sounds like you've got some little gremlin plans there Dana

[small quartz]

WELL

THEORETICALLY

What If I Chainsaw Man a guardian

What If I cut him up

and put him in bockses

and ship them to like

different places

[dim minnow]

well you see

if a Guardian's body is left largely intact, then the Ghost needs to reach the body to rez it

[small quartz]

Largely?

HAH

[dim minnow]

however, if the body is not intact, then the Ghost can rez them anywhere

[dim minnow]

we don't know the specifics

we just know that keeping Savathun's body intact prevented Immaru from rezzing her

[small quartz]

So I gotta divide the body into 5 pieces

... the one piece

[dim minnow]

I think the Ghost would just need 1 piece really

hell maybe cutting it up that amount is enough

[small quartz]

God I want a set of exotic missions where we gotta get all a guardians body parts back now

and we reclaim his arsenal

[dim minnow]

what is it with you and dismembered body parts?

[pure tree]

when did Eliksni and Cabal start working together in any capacity?

i know that in plunder, some cabal were working for Eliksni pirates, but was that the first time cooperation happened or was the first time much earlier?

[dim minnow]

in Plunder, it's because the Cabal in it were pretty much deserters

and the Eliksni were part of the Old Crews which were independent of any House

except Salvation when Eramis returned and called the Old Crews to her aid

[pure tree]

is that the first time cabal and eliksni worked together in any sort of way?

[dim minnow]

for Echoes, the Eliksni who were working with the Shadow Legion were mercenaries or had an agreement

[dim minnow]

I recall in D1 there was a crucible map showing Cabal, Eliksni, and humans fighting against Hive together

[pure tree]

it seems purely based on circumstances and their history and nature, that the Eliksni and Cabal are the two enemy species in destiny most likely to work together outside of the witness's influence

[sick yew]

I mean in the lore there have always been the occasional colaboration often out of neccesity

Cayde once fought alongside an Eliksni Captain all the way back pre d1 I think

[dim minnow]

Baroness actually

[pure tree]

true

[dim minnow]

sadly, Cayde had a misunderstanding with Eliksni peace offerings and ended up killing her

[pure tree]

ig what im really asking is cooperation between Eliksni and Cabal that wasnt out of an in the moment 'enemy of my enemy is my friend'

[sick yew]

A random guardian once got trapped in the room next to a Cabal in a crashed ship and they developed some sort of friendship over the day.....till some rando guardian came by and just tapped the Cabal when rescuing the other Guardian

That was told back through the exotic armor from Chosen

That shit still makes me sad

[dim minnow]

she was trying to initiate an Irrealis Bow, Cayde thought she was giving him her gun so he reached for it, end result was her lunging at Cayde

then Cayde killed her and took the gun

[sick yew]

yeah

Also ig Eliksni and Awoken have been working together for a good while
Even tho "working together" is a bit of an overstatement

[pure tree]

well, the eliksni other than variks really were more subjects than equals to the awoken

[sick yew]

Thats what I mean yes

Tbh even Variks wasnt exactly respected

[pure tree]

yeah

[sick yew]

But thats how he wanted it

Man intentionally speaks in his funny little way so people think he isnt smart

[dim minnow]

Variks actually considered switching sides during House of Wolves for a brief moment

[sick yew]

As in back to the Eliksni?

[dim minnow]

Variks (to himself): Goes after Winter. Devils, Kings. Seeks power. Kings deny him. Kell of Kings hides well. Perhaps he will take back the Great Machine. Perhaps I chose the wrong side. It is not too late—

Petra (over comm): Variks, Crows are reporting Skolas is back in the Ishtar Sink. They're all over the Vex networks.

Variks: Yes. Right away.```

from "The Ruling House" Grimoire Card

man you really can't trust that guy

[sick yew]

I think we can trust him nowadays

Watch Bungie prove me the hell wrong in Episode 2

As long as we get Most Loyal 2 im happy

Banger lorebook

On the note of Most Loyal tho @dim minnow its true that Variks was the first ever Eliksni to peacefully enter the last city correct?

[worldly river]

Damn Bungie really just canonized the Sol Collective name with a random social media post https://twitter.com/DestinyTheGame/status/1813650142995595642

Destiny 2 (@DestinyTheGame) on X

Guardian, know your enemy.

The Sol Collective of the Vex make up the bulk of Vex we encounter in the system. The Sol Collective is a unified cohort of previously existing sub-collectives, formed around the Red War in response to Guardian efforts on Mars and Venus.

Twitter · Jul 17, 2024, 7:01 PM

Cuz afaik it wasn't ever officially referred to by that term, it was just one players came up with to refer to them by based on the naming comventions

[empty fern]

Eremis strikes again

[winter edge]

Do exos shit?

[empty fern]

Dunno

[sick yew]

Really? I could have sworn Sol Collective had been a standard term for a while

[sick yew]

Very likely
They have essentially all human features build into them to not make them go insane

They gotta eat, drink, breathe, blink etc

Cause otherwise their digitalized brain goes "wait hang the fuck on something aint right here" and goes insane

And then you gotta reset it

[undone bane]

is Destiny-verse outerversal? I've seen some people on youtube and reddit claimed it

[sick yew]

Wdym?

[jagged badge]

Power-scaling terms

[undone bane]

this

Like how the hell is this still a thing?

[blazing wasp]

Some power scaling topics can be interesting but these terms are just worse Dragonball terms used to favor a liked side more

[jagged badge]

There can be interesting discussions to be had about matchups but generally yeah power scalers just ascribe these random terms to characters or “verses” and then never consider contexts of stories and fights

[blazing wasp]

Power scaling talks can be fun when nerding out how different logics and stuff from two fictional universes or more would interract

[rain yarrow]

if an Exo has to get reset, assuming they're a guardian, does their ghost remember everything still do you guys reckon, or are their memories reset too?

[jagged badge]

Guardian Exos don’t reset

[rain yarrow]

ah I see I see, that's interesting ngl I thought Banshee-44 was a guardian lmao

[jagged badge]

Nah

But even then

All of Banshee’s resets were before the Collapse and thus the creation of Ghosts anyway

[rain yarrow]

Ah okay cheers

[trim grotto]

Gonna be honest, most folks don't know what this means, me included. It only works in power scaling, which is context dependant at best and nonsensical at worst.

[autumn rapids]

how long ago was the whirlwind?

[autumn rapids]

The traveler has been around earth for awhile right?

the collapse was like 200 something years ago?

idk man 😭

[jagged badge]

Way longer

[autumn rapids]

oh damn

so do eliksni just live really fucking long

[jagged badge]

Yeah

[ember storm]

Unironically they’re more like crustaceans than bugs

I think bungie realized it kinda sucks to have two insect races so they’ve been leaning more into the crab theming

You know how lobsters can potentially live way longer, just their bodies just can’t keep up with continuous growth

It’s like that but better

[pure tree]

The Eliksni feel like they're biologically immortal

I mean, there's few left who still remember what Riis was like, but that's more cuz they keep dying from other things and not dying of old age

[autumn rapids]

I guess floating around in space for a few hundred years takes a toll on you

[cinder geode]

If they have enough ether I think they are biologically immortal but i could be wrong

[final stream]

Why does it matter whether our saint 14 is “real”

[ember storm]

It’s not that he thinks he’s fake, it’s that he’s not “this” timeline’s Saint

He feels as though he’s just replacing the life of someone else

That Osiris only really loved that Saint

[steep hare]

Man In The Wall from Warframe or The Witness unnerfed?

I think the Witness Unnerfed beat the man in the wall

[worldly river]

It's definitely been used for a while by the community, on DTG Discord the term crops up as far back as 2019 shortly after Shadowkeep came out, and the lore subreddit as far back as Season of the Splicer, but afaik it wasn't official until now

Hard to tell here given the server's been nuked multiple times lmao

[sick yew]

Damn Ishtar is slow as fuck today

Nvm not slow
Just dont work at all

Oh right you cant properly search more than a single word on Ishtar

I forgot

[small quartz]

a guy cant have a hobby sheesh

[analog torrent]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1159664760485335102/1169092623961694218/durge.gif?ex=6554255a&is=6541b05a&hm=198d3da9ee3dac4356eaafd6b27189817eed6f39b4185607e61734a1997f912a&

[cinder geode]

What were the subjugators base blueprints of

[frigid sparrow]

rhulk

[jagged badge]

They appear very similar to Lubraeans

[frigid sparrow]

their demeanor is reflective of his attitude towards us and how he fights so casually

[cinder geode]

Atleast they have more honor then him as they bow at the start of a fight and bow when they kill you

[frigid sparrow]

I mean he was kinda cocooning

plus he didn't really respect us

no reason to bow to meagre pickings

[cinder geode]

The Subjugators think the guardians are worthy opponents atleast

Unless they're enraged then they dgaf

[frigid sparrow]

anyways, finally got around to doing reset story stuff

I am incredibly underwhelmed

the saint/osiris storyline is honestly the main saving grace since it touching on saint's personhood is an actually interesting plotpoint

failsafe's "story" is just kinda in the background and is played half for laughs (which are actually funny)

and the potential of the conductor is so wasted because there's no visible threat going on weeks in

[cinder geode]

Oh wow a mysterious entity is being mysterious

[frigid sparrow]

I think the story relegating itself to just nessus is a major mistake

ikora brings up how the conductor could potentially amass an army through the other vex collectives as well, but because they don't really play any differently and they're tucked away in places we can't visit, that idea is just a "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did this!?"

[blazing wasp]

its moving a bit slow but i still see the ability for it to be good

for the first episode of a dlc, its a banger, if we look at the track record.

it hasnt wasted the potential, yet.

[frigid sparrow]

I think it'd be way more interesting if europa, neomuna, and the infinite forest had some developments

I would say mercury/io/venus but LOOOOOOOOOL

[blazing wasp]

hell no for europa

[frigid sparrow]

IF could be brought in with the radiolaria plunge so we'll see but the vex really just feel like a super contained threat because they're on this tiny ass planetoid and we're not seeing them anywhere else

[blazing wasp]

neomuna would maybe be cool but for very obvious reasons they're not doing that yet.

The only pro with doing it on europa is that you cant waste potential there, given the lack of it.

[frigid sparrow]

Europa still has the glassway and it's a seemingly big project for the vex trying to take it

and also there has been like 0 fucking story with the planet itself

[blazing wasp]

we've already had the entirety of the story surrounding the glassway wrapped up

[blazing wasp]

Because all the potential the planet really has for a story has been wrapped up

[frigid sparrow]

just call it brayworld, that's pretty much all it's good for as a story location

[blazing wasp]

Deep stone crypt and bray stuff is wrapped up

the vex's presence has been wrapped up

eramis and house salvation has been wrapped up

whats there really left

without shoehorsing in something unnecessary when you can just choose a more interesting destination

nessus does have some unexplored aspects

[frigid sparrow]

unexplored aspects that've been created through the echo

failsafe has been given an actual purpose and story now, the conductor is a new threat formed through the echo, the transformation of nessus is something that's occurring becasue of the echo's landing

we know house salvation still exists because of the post-campaign FS adventures and they're still in riis-reborn, so hell, have an echo land on europa and give clovis' power hungry ass some more screentime and some turf war with the fallen alongside the vex who've experienced this kind of echo shenanigans

I think the potential of varying locations increases dramatically based on the echos and what their capabilities are, europa included

[empty fern]

No

[wheat flower]

No?

Even without the echo nessus had massive potential as a vex way point

Like all the tunnels and stuff you see now were still there before the echo

[fresh zephyr]

What should my bug DPS weapon be? I don't have microcosm

Big*

[dim minnow]

wrong channel

[fresh zephyr]

Damn it. My bad

[errant folio]

yooo why tf the new main antagonist look scary asf

reminds me of momo

[dim minnow]

the Conductor?

[errant folio]

yes

[dim minnow]

yeah she does look pretty menacing

though she'll probably get knocked off by the end of Echoes

[worldly river]

Only just got around to reading the newest lore book and huh, I guess they're just subtly confirming the Conductor is Maya Sundaresh already huh
Like obviously that was the prevailing theory but the title of that lore book just outright confirms it

Even not considering the clearer language in the currently visible but unobtainable Season Pass ship, the log format, language, and subject matter matches the Sparrow and Ghost, and the former of those (obtainable as of this week) has her referring to "My Vex"

[frigid sparrow]

putting on the fakest surprised face ever when the reveal happens

[dim minnow]

"The syzygy was bullshit the entire time"

[small quartz]

Are there drugs in D2

[fast tapir]

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/walt-walnterwite-walter-stare-staring-breaking-bad-gif-8185929955267525825

i will become the walberg whit of destiny

[dim minnow]

I think the Jade Rabbit lore tab references something made for Guardians as a pharmacutical thing

From the people that brought you Lunal comes prescription-strength Immortalia: a revolutionary new combat elixir shown to relieve the crippling existential crises of your second life. Immortalia can reduce symptoms of listlessness, cynicism, and social anxiety. Side effects may include dancing, salty behavior, and acts of group heroism.

Do not take Immortalia while operating all-terrain thrust bikes.```

[winter edge]

Who tf are the Sunbreakers?

[trim grotto]

The Sunbreakers were an old mercenary Titan order. As the name suggests, they were Solar using Titans. They made their home on Mercury at the Burning Shrine, as there was a rift between their order and the Last City of Earth.

Unfortunately, the Red Legion destroyed the order during the Red War.

[winter edge]

Aww

They sounded like cool fellas ):

My ashen wake is now sad

Man fuck Gaul

He really is an asshole

Fucking shows up out of knowwhere and ruin everything

Destiny have so much lore about the city and guardians but choose to only focus on our enemy race

[trim grotto]

There's plenty of deeper lore if you know where to look. However, yes, the side effect of being a shooter means there's always a lot about the enemies we face.

[winter edge]

We still dint even have the last city as a social space yet

That would be so great if we can actually see the people we're protecting ya know?

[trim grotto]

True! It is why my guilty pleasure dream is that we may one day get a different sort of media - either a different style of game, or something we can watch - set in the Destiny universe, apart from Destiny 2 the game itself.

[lofty badge]

The Conductor wanting to "save" humanity

[small quartz]

he willllll

[small quartz]

its my guilty pleasure to find out dumb shit in d2 lore

like, did the griddy ever take off

[jagged badge]

Have you ever heard about the frozen rabbit embryo that is the only reason we are all alive now?

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/black-cat-stare-gif-21084269

[jagged badge]

I don’t know what to make of that gif 😭

[small quartz]

the fucking what

[jagged badge]

Okay

So

Before Mara Sov and her family went on to the Yang Liwei colony ship, she was doing some repair work on this thing out in space, when all of a sudden, her colleague was killed by a frozen rabbit embryo that zoomed in suddenly from space

[small quartz]

Fucking what

[jagged badge]

This for some reason was an omen to Mara, and inspired her to go on the Yang Liwei

[small quartz]

WHERE DID

A RANDOM ASS

FROZEN RABBIT EMBRYO

COME FROM

[jagged badge]

Immediately afterward—for reasons very clear to her because she has always had a sense for the meaning of things, reasons very difficult to explain to others because she has always felt this sense was secret—she asked her mother if the family could travel with Project Amrita.```

[small quartz]

where're the devs

I gotta ask

[jagged badge]

The man to ask would be Seth Dickinson, he wrote it

He doesn’t work at Bungie

[small quartz]

okay seth your ass is grass

[jagged badge]

And I’m not sure if he has socials and answers stuff anymore tbh

[small quartz]

and im the mower

[jagged badge]

Additionally, this same lore book has another random weird thing in it

The Cow Thing