📚lore-discussion

[chrome fog]

Leave ‘em

[safe galleon]

i'm gonna be honest this just sounds really funny

[river ruin]

says who? please keep lying bro

[chrome fog]

Nope

No interaction

[jagged badge]

Huh, apparently Sundance isn’t credited

That’s weird

[shadow crypt]

Do we know where the last city is?

[river ruin]

under the traveler

[jagged badge]

Vaguely, South America

We don’t have anything more concretely specific than that

[ember storm]

it’s next to a big set of mountains

that’s what you get

[chrome fog]

I think some fans have been able to pin point it to modern day Chile but there aren’t enough details that are concrete to pin it there

[ember storm]

we also don’t know what the location would officially be called then

[chrome fog]

It’s kinda like the Traveler’s size where there’s bits of incosistency which makes it hard to establish exactly where the Last City is

[jagged badge]

Iirc, Micah, Targe and Luzaku all were credited

[ember storm]

Like North America full on became an empire and absorbed Canada

[safe galleon]

not enough info to say where exactly (as in like narrowed down to a country) but as others are saying its somewhere in what used to be south america

[chrome fog]

There is the Panama Ravine being close by and I know that there is a descriptor of snakes near the Last City’s outskirts that are endemic to the region

[ember storm]

I like the idea that fallen only ever tried direct war with the city once because they hated the climate

[chrome fog]

Felt themselves being boiled like crabs in the humidity

[safe galleon]

i do wonder how much culture and such has been preserved throughout the collapse. there's no shot that people remember niche stuff like local traditions, right? especially since (i assume anyway since it's called 'the dawning' in universe) christmas is no longer the de facto winter holiday when it's so ubiquitous in the real world

[ember storm]

People don’t even remember what the word pineapple means

But also because the last city is comprised of people from all cultures

They made something new

[jagged badge]

They don’t even remember Halloween

[chrome fog]

Or Christmas

[jagged badge]

And unfortunately we got absolutely 0 lore on Neomuna’s holidays and how they would react to Festival of the Lost and Dawning

Massive oversight imo

[ember storm]

they think sheepdogs were huge mutants that were the war beasts of lumbering jacks, giants tearing up the landscape with massive cleavers

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[chrome fog]

Where’s that one from, the first I’ve heard of it

[eager trout]

The Winnower has sent us a message

[safe galleon]

so the old world is just, for all intents and purposes, vestigial in the general consciousness?

[chrome fog]

Fairly

[jagged badge]

They’re trying to reach us about our Ghost’s extended warranty

[chrome fog]

Kimchi, Ramen, and Sake have survived to the current time

[safe galleon]

i keep trying to mute them. please help.

[ember storm]

It just needed to send another dm so the account wasn’t flagged legacy and deleted

[eager trout]

To be fair, do we remember what people celebrated in July 27th 1700 years ago?

[eager trout]

"Last online 10447692067 years ago"

[eager trout]

Ironically, this isn't entirely wrong, the warranty was Cayde-6

[ember storm]

So when was the Unforeseen Consequences tab supposed to take place

Right before the end of Wish?

Cause I don’t think riven would’ve been so selfless without all that development

[chrome fog]

Objectively yes; for example, we’ve tracked Christmas as being a Christian retooling of old celebrations for Jove/Zeus, as Jesus’ actual birth would’ve been closer to when we celebrate Easter in Spring

[safe galleon]

i mean kind of actually yeah

[eager trout]

I mean, the Neomuni probably do have their own version of each holiday, just incredibly changed like the ones from today

[jagged badge]

Not sure tbh

[safe galleon]

oh someone beat me to it

[jagged badge]

I don’t even think Crow knows that was Riven he spoke to then as well

It was his belief that thinking of Cayde while going through the portal is when the wish occurred

[eager trout]

The Witness was Tomura Shigaraki; The Winnower is All for One.

[safe galleon]

do they even have seasons. a year on neptune is something like 150 earthen years if im not mistaken

[eager trout]

Very long seasons

[safe galleon]

i do not know why autocorrect put 'earth' as 'earthen'

[eager trout]

Still better than the seasons on Uranus

[ember storm]

They all revolve around capybara

[eager trout]

Imagine the capybara managed to become friends with every alien species that invaded Earth

[dim minnow]

I feel that comparison falls flat

[eager trout]

I meant in terms of personality and demeanor

[chrome fog]

Still sort of falls

[dim minnow]

Yeah I feel it still doesn't fit

[chrome fog]

But also I see where it’s coming from

[ember storm]

No idea what these words mean

[safe galleon]

i mean i don't see why the alien species hostile to humans would be hostile to capybaras to be fair. they're not dangerous, humans don't use them for food or transportation or resources, and they're not useful for anything in particular. verdict: capybaras are regarded as a neutral party in the destiny universe

[ember storm]

Capybara are the pinnacle of propaganda

[eager trout]

Imagine the capybaras are the only thing in the entire universe that would remain with the exact same appearance if the Witness succeeded in making the Final Shape (as opposed to the chaotic form everything else takes)

[safe galleon]

like they have powerful jaws and stuff but A. theyre pretty docile generally and B. do you think that shit is piercing cabal hide

[chrome fog]

They run conspiracies so deep they make the Illuminati look like a high school study group, just for the fun of it

[safe galleon]

i'd like an elaboration on this

[ember storm]

neomuna’s prime children’s television is a segment called capybara hour

it’s literally just filled with propaganda

[safe galleon]

ohhh i see i see

i thought you meant like

you know.

[eager trout]

Wait, that's canon?

[safe galleon]

yes?

there are transcripts of em in lorebooks somewhere

[eager trout]

Is this canon?

Imagine the capybara would be the most powerful Strand users simply because they're experts at going with the flow.

[safe galleon]

i just said yes

[eager trout]

No, you said "yes?"

[safe galleon]

yeah look just below it

[eager trout]

Yeah, I saw

[safe galleon]

'yes?' as in 'yeah, you didn't know?

[eager trout]

That's not how that works-

[ember storm]

But Earth is a very dangerous place now. The people there do not go to school, and they do not go to market. Instead, they are bullied by the warlords, who force them to do things instead of asking nicely.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-stargazer?highlight=Capybara

[safe galleon]

this is still so funny to me

"they do not be shopping. they have to get terrorized by evil immortal space wizards"

[ember storm]

—Carlita Capybara, Capybara Corner, s44, ep23

hope it didn’t end up like the simpsons

[safe galleon]

capybara corner really went downhill when they switched from live action to 2d to cut down on costs in season 37 tbh :/

[slim elk]

Nah, its when they went all CGI when they moved to the Cloudark

They used to have real capybaras, now its all fake starting from Season 20

[safe galleon]

I'm gonna be honest man i'm kind of in support of this part. The real capybara were fun but i think we all knew it was over after that scandal at the end of season 18 where some kid caught rabies from one of the capybaras

It's like if they let loose a live ostritch painted yellow on the set of sesame street

[slim elk]

Jokes aside, they still havent explained what the heck was going on with that near religious mural in Neomuna

[safe galleon]

Which one??

[slim elk]

https://imgur.com/a/d2-trailer-mural-7MWGvaA

[safe galleon]

I see

[slim elk]

Yeah, personally the whole deal with Neomuna would probably be better if Maya actually "won" leadership there

Explain how they went from delete all data on the Veil to literally lives in Cloudark

When its evident they have zero idea how the macguffin that sustains their entire city works...

[chrome fog]

I wanna ask about this again

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/europa-3

Cant find where waltz got that description from.
But this shows they think sheep dogs are mythological creatures

[ember storm]

I got it from the depths of the collective subconscious

(bad memory)

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ii-isolated-incidents

So.. fridge horror from this

Anyone remember Aesop and what it supposedly did to Neomunas kids?

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/swarmers

[deep dew]

UM

I think I know what the veil is. This is an illustration by American spiritualist/artist/philosopher Walter Russel

Even more damming. The triangle on the traveler imagery.

The guy seemed a little cuckoo for coco puffs if you get what I’m saying. But his whole work was called “The Recombination of Light”.

Any thoughts?

https://www.stephaniemodavis.com/post/walter-russell-the-secret-of-light

[chrome fog]

There is the music of the spheres, which might be playing off of this concept, and it might be an influence

[static bluff]

I have no idea what this is trying to illustrate

hooray for recognizable shapes?

[chrome fog]

But this gives us only a source of inspiration, from what info currently present in-game we just know that the Veil is a black box for all conscious thought and also a source of Darkness as well as connected and a counterpart to the Traveler. Any more than that - such as a connection to the Winnower in any way - is mostly just speculative and not entirely indicated

[deep dew]

Definitely agree that what we’ve seen here is likely inspiration. However, the title of his work and the nature of what he was trying to accomplish lead me to believe that some of his work might yield some insights into destiny cosmology.

[chrome fog]

The writings shown are mostly nonsensical from a quick parse, again it's more likely that it had inspiration for the music of the spheres

[deep dew]

Eh, I think that if it quacks like a duck it’s a duck. I don’t think it’s exactly fair to claim an either/or, when there’s no need for such a dichotomy. There can be multiple layers of inspiration, and where inspiration is found there is, logically, potential for there to be more.

If I have found inspiration here, and I as yet believe firmly I have, what are the odds that I’d find 100% of it right now?

[chrome fog]

Someone noted that part of the Veil looked like roots. That never necessarily went anywhere

If Bungie tells us that they found those writings then hooray but also we'd never know until they do, and the only real connection that's apparent to those writings is the Music of the Spheres

Aside from that, there's a hemisphere being presented and that's like it; though I do think that the focus on light specifically in those writings might connect to Strand, as it has aesthetics that are somewhat connected to electromagnetism - specifically the stripiness of the subclass is similar to the diffraction pattern for the double slit experiment that demonstrates the dual nature of photons, in that they behave both like waves and like particles. The 'omnipresence' of electromagnetism also mentioned in the paper also rings somewhat true with just electromagnetism in general and with Strand interacting with the omnipresent psychic fabric connecting all reality, the Weave.

[analog torrent]

Was slavery a thing in the Dark Age? I get that bungie wouldn't outright say it because this game is rated T but is it implied anywhere? Or is it like the "some Lightless commit suicide in the hopes of being reborn" idea where it's never confirmed but makes horrible sense

[chrome fog]

It's more like a return to the lord-vassal estates, which is not quite slavery but like they did demand that all that occupied their lands give tribute

Hi Mael, thoughts on the Walter Russel diagrams?

[trim grotto]

It looks like it may have been used for inspiration. I have no other opinions on it.

[raw hazel]

mael

[trim grotto]

Adaboada

[raw hazel]

🫵 nerd

[chrome fog]

Bonebd comsurm

[willow dagger]

Aren’t all of you oranges… nerds?

[raw hazel]

you couldn't catch me nerdy

[ember storm]

Honestly I don’t really think so

Warlords were just that, warlords, running around and playing god and taking whatever they wanted while hoarding what they didn’t use

it’s not like they were building monuments or anything, they just found whatever place was available and took it over

[chrome fog]

Orange just means you got voted by other oranges to get promoted. It’s blue but you gotta be peer reviewed and vouched

[analog torrent]

holy shit I didn't know Knox had lines in-game

(Cayde-1's homie, for those who don't know)

[willow dagger]

You’re always in this channel! Why aren’t you orange?

[chrome fog]

Need to wait three more months for a strike to expire and also I haven’t applied for paragon

It’s not really a sign of seniority just to signify that you’re a trustworthy member of the server

[willow dagger]

Omg why’d you get a strike?!

I can’t imagine you saying something bad

[chrome fog]

Not being a bigger person for stuff like the Boberto situation

But like that’s fine

I’ve been here technically from about Arrivals but left a couple times because releases would get a big influx of the general chat come in and get confrontational about the lore

Like take how everyone used to be about Crow and Uldren and just. Multiply it by like ten people everyday, and that would for a whole month after an expac release

[willow dagger]

Honestly I didn’t comprehend any of that, but my fever is spiking so I can’t really absorb info

But I hope you get orange!

[fresh zephyr]

Inteeeressting

So someone on Destinylore came across where Bungie may gotten the term Necrolite from that they use in the Nacre lore.

In Discovery Of the Dead by Allen Upward, which is a sci-fi/supernatural book, the protagonist discovers a substance called 'Necrolite' that allows them to communicate with the dead.

[dim minnow]

I think the term itself is meant to mean "binder of souls"

[wild zenith]

what even is the veil

i love destiny lore but i feel like i cant wrap my head around what the veil even is

[dim minnow]

Darkness Traveler

and it is implied that the Veil and Traveler were united as a singular entity at some point

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, just as the Traveler is the physical manifestation and source of Light in the universe, the Veil is the physical manifestation and source of Darkness. Maya also described it as a 'web of consciousness' similar to how the Vex are many minds linked together but natural instead of artificial.

And given the lore of the Qugu and the Psions, that 'web' is basically formed of the minds of the dead.

[fresh zephyr]

I've seen that explanation before too, but I haven't seen a source anywhere, since the word itself doesn't lend itself to that. If we're reading it literally, it basically means something like 'Death or Dead Rock'.

[tulip knoll]

Was just discussing about this in the cryptarchy and I think it checks out, or it could check out.

[dim minnow]

Osiris himself said it was indicated by his findings

and one of the Visions of the Traveler very likely alludes to it

[tulip knoll]

Yeah the more I think about it, the more conclusive it seems

[analog torrent]

From the Cayde stash quest: “This one’s for any Hunter who kills me. Best guess: Marcus Ren?”

Are there any loretabs where they hang out?

[dim minnow]

Marcus Ren appears in several

he's most well known for Sparrow Racing

[past glen]

Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books.

Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope—and I would certainly have missed you.

Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved.

Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once.

Are you surprised to hear of it?

poor witness catching strays huh

"sedimentary necrolite"

[dim minnow]

ok the word sedimentary

implies that the use of Necrolite here is meant to refer to the synonym of Necronite

Necronite is a kind of foul-smelling feldspar

feldspars are rock-forming minerals that make up a large amount of the Earth's outer crust

[fresh zephyr]

Which also matches up with the literal meaning being 'Death Rock'

I feel like both descriptions kind of point away from the Witness.

Especially since 'sedimentary' also implies it's something formed over time, or at least that 'sediment' forms around it over time since feldspars are often found in sedimentary rock.

My personal guess is that it's talking about the Veil, especially with how it refers to itself and how Maya calls it a 'knife'.

God I love what they've done with the lore for this expansion

We're so back

[smoky rose]

I mean it could just be what Bungie terms the material that makes up the final shape

given the whole fossilized in time line right after that seems likely

[sharp osprey]

ok so i took a look at that lore, very interesting stuff

unveiling is real 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

i kind of hope that they don't make the winnower like a real villain, yknow

i mean i'd love to be pleasently surprised, but i think the winnower works better as an enigmatic figure in deep lore

it might feel cheap if we end up killing it with a gun

(because that would also prove its point)

[blazing wasp]

If unveiling is anything to go by, winnower won't do anything

It is so convinced it'll win

And at that point why care

You're inevitable, might as well enjoy the show

[light stratus]

How many assassination attempts has there been on zavala

[sweet mason]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but considering frontiers is likely going to be is leaving Sol and the last Echo is us going back to the dreadnaught, do you guys think it’s likely we will use the dreadnaught?

I’m not familiar with any human created ships in the lore that are capable of interstellar travel

[fast tapir]

i thought this immediately

and it sounds like an awesome idea

[sweet mason]

just seems a bit too coincidental

yeah

[fast tapir]

also

like

the way they explained the armor

[sweet mason]

especially given the theme of us using our enemies powers and weapons against them

like it doesn’t really feel like savathun would… care about the dreadnaught

xivu would but I assume we are killing her in Heresy

I guess they could do some portal shenanigans but that sounds lame af compared to us colonizing the dreadnaught and using it to face threats outside of sol

[trim grotto]

That'd be the Exodus and ECHO colony ships.

Also, there's the entire Dead Orbit fleet. They've already left, of course.

[fast tapir]

i wonder what they are up to rn

[ember storm]

me when the orbit is alive

[fresh zephyr]

Tbh I wouldn't be shocked if the DO fleet didn't get destroyed by the Witness trying to leave

It was petty enough to do shit like that

[trim grotto]

It already has, after all, with the Exodus Green.

[vagrant bridge]

The Exodus ships were but they can only travel "near light speed"

Idk if the dreadnought can travel ftl or not though

[slim elk]

It can by all accounts.
Back when Oryx used it he cheated with paracausal stuff

[vagrant bridge]

So it'd take hundreds of years to actually reach something

[vagrant bridge]

True

[slim elk]

And then you have 2 large scale Cabal fleet arrivals

Ghaul and Caitals

With Ghaul we can presume most of the time it took them to get to Sol was actually building the Traveler Cage

[vagrant bridge]

Me watching the Hive cut a hole in spacetime just to get to Target

[vagrant bridge]

Did the eliksni have ftl? It sounds like they travelled for hundreds or thousands of years before actually reaching something

[slim elk]

They probably do but Bungies never given specifics

Only lore dump we had was references to NLS Drives

[vagrant bridge]

Huh

So they're just alcubierre drives

[slim elk]

If we are going beyond the system, tracking down DO is probably the best bet.

[vagrant bridge]

True

[slim elk]

They had a fleet built up over decades, saves us time and resources building another

[vagrant bridge]

Hostile takeover of dead orbit fleet when???

[slim elk]

Also the chance they may have set up mining colonies somewhere

[slim elk]

We do have reason to go after them with the Coup attempt

DOs harboring traitors, and Hideo was a big conspirator with Lakshmi-2

So long as DOs giving him shelter, we have reason to pursue

[paper gorge]

Did kelgorath come back for tfs ?

[ember storm]

yeah, relegated to an overthrow mini boss

[paper gorge]

Is tanks, the herald of finality or is it chelchis ?

[ember storm]

Neither are confirmed but there’s zero reason for it to be Taniks

Chelchis is more likely out of basic logic

[slim elk]

Other then the memes of course

[vagrant bridge]

True

[lapis thistle]

Boys i was here thinking how is going to be the next BIG BAD BOY that we has guardians are going to fight, and it has top the witness power right

[trim grotto]

Nah, I don't think so.

It's okay to lower the stakes.

Change the goal a bit.

[lapis thistle]

i mean ye sure, but like im not asking the next bad guy

im asking the next big bad guy

[ember storm]

Big bad doesn’t have to be more powerful than the witness to be the big bad

[lapis thistle]

ye you right too

[trim grotto]

Savathûn was a background enemy for years, working us through manipulation. She wasn't, per se, more powerful than other enemies we've fought.

[lapis thistle]

so you guys think that the next will not be as powerfull as witness

[trim grotto]

I'd bet on it.

The Witness has been the enemy of Humanity since the Collapse itself, the overarching villain since D1 launch.

[lapis thistle]

ye but i like the way she manipulate her way too us

[lapis thistle]

Ye you 100% right

[fast tapir]

it absolutely wont be more powerful

[lapis thistle]

since d1 we would listen abt witness

[ember storm]

we didn’t even know the witness existed until witch queen

retroactively we now know how long it’s been active but still

we didn’t have a name or face until well after halfway through the saga

[lapis thistle]

i mean we didnt knew her name but we knew her

[ember storm]

I don’t want them to immediately wheel in a new bad guy

Let things simmer down

[fast tapir]

let us work on sol first

[lapis thistle]

That could be a cool thing too

lean more to the new vanguard crow and new stuff to do

not chasing a bad guy for once

that could be a good ideia too

[trim grotto]

It does feel nice to have a Hunter Vanguard again, after all these years.

[fast tapir]

true

and new crow looks badass

no more uldren cut

[lapis thistle]

ye fr

and i actually liked the sandoff of cayde 6

and i do think that crow story is very coll

[ember storm]

Am I the only one who thinks it’s a bad idea that his literal first action was to go back into the field

The track record isn’t exactly comforting

[fast tapir]

he'll be fine!

[trim grotto]

I was thinking that

[ember storm]

Also can we technically say that the Hunter vanguard has been killed 7 times now

[fast tapir]

real

[lapis thistle]

But its like the hunter class in it self

they are knowing for not stay in the tower all the time

like cayde 6

[ember storm]

He was known for that

He’s famous for not liking staying there

The moment he left he died

[lapis thistle]

ye

[fast tapir]

feels like a good time to leave the tower!

dies in the bottom of a prison

[ember storm]

remember the person who just left Uldren to rot in the prison and told nobody he was alive is sitting around with zero repercussions

[lapis thistle]

ye fr

i dont remenber the name but ye you are right

[fast tapir]

[lapis thistle]

he was a pilot fighter before that

[chrome fog]

I mean NLS is pretty common for intergalactic traversal, we have it which is why we can get most anywhere in the system under like three days

[slim elk]

Intergalactic?
Humanity never made it out of Sol. Let alone the Milky Way

Exodus was to change that.. then the Collapse hit.

Proxima Centauri is the closest star to Sol, and that's still 4 light years away

Gonna take years for any ship unless they have an FTL method

[chrome fog]

Why

They could probably reach outside the system with the ships here now

[slim elk]

Yes. And it's basic math

[chrome fog]

Aight

Whatever man

[slim elk]

You can get out, will take years to go anywhere

[blazing wasp]

We do something else than just travel at light speed sometimes

"Space folding"

Or something

[chrome fog]

The Ascendent Plane too but also like

NLS is still unfathomly fast

[blazing wasp]

Imagine a piece of paper, now fold the middle of that paper, and the distance is artificially less

[slim elk]

It is
Space is still unfathomaly vast lol

[blazing wasp]

It's kinda like that?

[slim elk]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

[chrome fog]

It’s whatever, we have space magic and multiple space faring alien species

Like

It ain’t an issue

[slim elk]

Yep
Just gotta take the time to retrofit everything.
Or hijack the biggest ship in system and replicate its FTL
(Dreadnought)

[chrome fog]

Ymean

Use the Ascendent Plane

Or y’know

[blazing wasp]

Also if you traveled at light speed wouldn't it take a little bit to travel from earth to neptune

Something done by calus in uh

Minutes

Just a short few

[chrome fog]

Just take your time anyway because we’re not under the threat of existence ending

Like why rush?

If it takes a year it takes a year

Same as building a larger colony fleet

[slim elk]

There is a thing to be said about securing from home system from threats first.

[chrome fog]

They ain’t no thang

Like

[slim elk]

Xivu and the Conclave say hello

[chrome fog]

The City still goes in without the Guardians

[blazing wasp]

Conclave is kinda dead or severely weakened

[chrome fog]

So like

[blazing wasp]

Xivu is weakened and biding her time atm

[slim elk]

Or you know
Maybe having more then two cities lol

[blazing wasp]

They joined forces with someone we kinda just recently beat

[chrome fog]

It’s not like our constant presence is needed for the Last City to make a fleet

[chrome fog]

Why

Like its been centuries

And humanity has prospered for the majority of the Last City’s lifetime

[slim elk]

Centuries that humanity's been under constant attack and been driven to near extinction multiple times

[chrome fog]

And clearly they can account for the growth in population

And also like multiple cities isn’t a requisite for fleet building

[slim elk]

It's probably best to reclaim our home system and the old golden age launchsites if you want a massive space program

[chrome fog]

Heck Neomuna has maintained itself despite being a single city

[chrome fog]

we’ve done this already though

We’re

Like

The most capable at handling threats for the system

Which leaves the City time to do its own stuff

Which can be inclusive of building colony ships, of developing FTL, and more

That’s the point of a defense force

And aside from the threats in the Episodes we have regular patrols keeping all the enemy factions in check

And teams getting immediate threats

[slim elk]

And it has
That was Dead Orbit was all about.. the problem is all the experts the City had in ship and launching them have left

[chrome fog]

Did they

Did they really?

Because like

That sounds like an assumption solely based on their whole schtick being ditching Earth on a fleet

[slim elk]

You.. missed the part where Dead Orbit and all the factions left in Splicer?

That's a serious drop in manpower

[chrome fog]

You missed the part where it says they have all the fleet mechanic experts

Cite

And then aside from that, we have experts from our allies

Who have for the most part maintained some form of fleets for a longer time than humanity has after the Collapse

[slim elk]

Yeah
We can Defintely pull it off with them, but they'll want assistance with own goals first most likely
Caitals whole deal in coming to Sol was to try and recruit the Guardians to fight the Hive

[chrome fog]

How

[slim elk]

Nowadays her focus will probably be killing Xivu and reclaiming Torabatl

[chrome fog]

Do you think

We get to

Torobatl

And again

It’s clear from the little progression of Niiks’ story that again, mechanics don’t need a constant presence of the entirety of the Vanguard force to be observing for them to develop technology

As that pyramid sparrow demonstrates

We ain’t the spaceship mechanics, that’s why we’re out there to defend said mechanics and allow them to do their work

That’s common sense

[slim elk]

The issue here is scale
You can make a number of sparrows and jumpships.

You want a full fleet.. that's going to require foundries, ports to build them in.

[chrome fog]

Yeah, and like what says we can’t? Again, the Last City for the most part is safe, the sparrows are a smaller example but like being able to actively develop and advance technology with relative peace of mind is the point of the Vanguard, that they defend the Last City so that we can do all this shit

Going after Dead Orbit is dumb

Maybe utilizing the Dreadnaught is a neat idea, but it’s still only one ship

[blazing wasp]

We've got bigger fish to fry than dead orbit

[chrome fog]

We can probably develop a fleet with the conditions we have

But nooooo

[blazing wasp]

They didn't even fully participate in the coup either

[chrome fog]

We have constant threats the to City, like we don’t eat those for breakfast

[blazing wasp]

They're not all too hostile

[chrome fog]

So apparently technological development has to halt

[slim elk]

There is a solid reason to go after DO at least.. Intel

See what they found and what sites-systems are viable for colonization

[chrome fog]

Despite evidence to the fact against it

[blazing wasp]

We've got the technology to develop technology

[chrome fog]

Wtf makes you think they’re looking for a replacement planet if they ditched a perfectly fine planet that has an active defense force

[blazing wasp]

We've recovered as such from the collapse

[slim elk]

You mischaracterize my argument
It's not the development of technology, it's the application and production of it

[chrome fog]

To which effort is wasted on Dead Orbit

[slim elk]

It took how long for DO to build their fleet?

[chrome fog]

They’re useless

[slim elk]

That's the point I'm trying to make here

[chrome fog]

Again, the false equivalence that because they’re the Fleet guys have literally all the Fleet experts

To which even if true

We have space faring allies

Who can supplant our knowledge

Dead Orbit is dead weight, they are replaceable

[slim elk]

Yeah.
I'm agreeing with you there. All I'm trying to point out is that we aren't jumping out of Sol en mass within a week

[chrome fog]

When was I saying such

[slim elk]

Going to take time to do all this.

[chrome fog]

I’m saying we don’t need DO and we can take our time

Which is fine

We have time

[blazing wasp]

You were saying the opposite

It'll take a lot of time, time we have

[slim elk]

Yep
And we can use that time to reclaim our home territory and get more resources for everyone

[chrome fog]

I was saying we have plenty of resources and support that development of FTL ain’t gonna take forever, which Freak’s proposition for apprehending the DO fleet would supplant when we don’t even need to, they’re barely necessary to us even

The Vanguard is explicitly for getting time for the rest of the City to have peace of mind and continue being a society, a civilization without much worry and focus on defending themselves

[slim elk]

Again
I think you highly underestimate the value of having the culimations of decades if not centuries worth of fleet building

Instead of having to start effectively from scratch

[chrome fog]

And I’m saying, fuck that noise, we can do this shit ourselves

[slim elk]

Did Dead Orbit not produce the end result of what your proposing?

[chrome fog]

They didn’t want to be here in the first place, imagine how annoying they’d be being force to come back and give us their knowledge

[chrome fog]

And what’s to say we can’t do it again without their dipshittery

Personally I wouldn’t want to deal with the dollar store doomer goths

[slim elk]

My argument is one of efficiency. That's all lol

[chrome fog]

And just develop the shit on my own

[chrome fog]

We have plenty of time to develop everything on our own without needing to chase down a couple stupid jackasses who let paranoia consume them

[hollow drum]

is damage phase nezarec his original body or is it just lost to time

[chrome fog]

I mean nothing much is changing

He just does the tormentor thing

Shifts his form a bit where his vulnerable spot is open

[slim elk]

I will also admit the potential scene where we can show the space goths how wrong they were is pretty amusing

The ol joke about turning our enemies into weapons still holds true with the Witness

[light stratus]

How many assassination attempts has there been on zavala

[chrome fog]

Like 1

[slim elk]

2

The initial ink scene where they tried assassinating him on the wall

And the ghost cage sniper where Crow was revealed to Zavala

[light stratus]

And now his lightless

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-D5SHyEHU&pp=ygUbU2Vhc29uIG9mIHRoZSBjaG9zZW4gZW5kaW5n
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRwfNSUMwg&pp=ygUiU2Vhc29uIG9mIHRoZSBjaG9zZW4gZGVzdGlueSAyIGluaw%3D%3D

[slim elk]

He's taken up Stasis to cover it

But yeah, he's on perma death mode now

[blazing wasp]

Stasis required discipline and self control to be used well

So zavala is probably a very potent wielder

[slim elk]

It's definitely causing some headaches for the Praxics

[blazing wasp]

Maybe more so considering who taught him.

[slim elk]

Would be fun seeing the "What now" politics in the City

But Bungies never focused on it

[analog torrent]

Like splicer
splicer was the shit

[vocal lava]

^

If we end up seeing Maya this season, I wonder if the OXA machine and Otzot are at least mentioned

I don’t think Maya, who is likely that big Vex demigod thing, will be a foe to defeat

[slim elk]

They name dropped Otzot on the ghost hunts

All those things were clear teasers for post Final Shape

[naive raptor]

What’s the lore on Golgoroth and Warpriest?

[winter edge]

Is it just me or the Witness final form looks goofy af?

[winter edge]

Hive shenanigans (probably)

[vocal lava]

I just think people were expecting more of a cosmic horror and it ended up just being a larger version of the Witness

[winter edge]

I mean the witness was always really large it just shirnk itself to make itself more presentable

I'm more so talking bout the goofy looking hands all over the place

On that note
Do we know of any other of their disciples?

[chrome fog]

No

[naive raptor]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but is The Upended a weapon that reflects/absorbs power (in this case the Traveler’s) and can uno reverse it back to destroy things?

[chrome fog]

No

You might be thinking of the Almighty, which was a Cabal weapon that absorbed energy from stars and used it as a powerful laser beam to destroy the planets of a system

The Upended was powered by the Mother Worm, Xita, one of the worm gods

And we didn't necessarily know what it did, just that it could destroy solar systems

[safe galleon]

so why does it seem like guardians don't often work together in large, organized forces? we know they do during excision and we know there were a good number during the great disaster, but i don't recall many other times where they've gathered as an organized 'army'

is it a numbers issue? a logistics one? or something else?

[ember storm]

It’s an everything issues

Excision is literally the only exception because it was our last shot at actually killing the witness before the universe ends, and even then

it’s all dependent on Salvation’s Edge which is just a standard fireteam of 6

[chrome fog]

Question, have you heard of the Great Disaster?

[vagrant bridge]

NLS implies "near light speed"
If we're only travelling NEAR light speed, it'll take us potentially tens of thousands of years just to leave the galaxy
For reference, the galaxy is 100k light years across (fortunately we're near the edge)
But the nearest galaxy to us is Andromeda, around 2 million light years away

Ftl is the only way and even then, you have to ask how much faster then light are you going?

2c won't cut it, still too slow

Plus, we have to assume the species we encounter are in the same galaxy as us

Anything able to travel intergalactic would be so far beyond us we'd be obliterated

Well besides the vex but I feel like they aren't trying as hard as they can

So besides the vex, we don't really know of any species that's extragalactic (to my knowledge)

[safe galleon]

yes, it's the battle between guardians and hive on the moon and as the name implies it did Not Go Well but i'm foggy on the specifics of why that was

[chrome fog]

So we did what everyone thinks would be the reasonable option, send an army of Guardians to try a kill Crota

It failed horribly and every guardian died

[safe galleon]

yeah, i know this is the effect i'm curious as to the cause

[chrome fog]

Crota also did the reasonable thing and made it so no one could kill him in his Throneworld

[safe galleon]

i'm aware that having guardians fight in large numbers tends to not go well but i'm asking why that is

[ember storm]

No organization or precise anything

Guardians are not meant to be an army

[safe galleon]

so it's an issue of 'they just kind of suck at it'?

[chrome fog]

Because the situations in which we felt we needed a large group of Guardians to fight were out of a percieved looming and a lack of understanding behind their power structure. When pinpointing how and where they get their power, we realized it's better to just send covert ops to precisely target weak points in their infrastructure and cripple them before we take them out

[safe galleon]

icic

[chrome fog]

Which I mean tracks with any conflict past from like past the early 20th century, as much as throwing numbers of guys worked for centuries it's easier to assassinate the leadership, hijack weapons and supply lines, and use asymetrical warfare to confuse the shit out of organized regiments

[safe galleon]

now that i think about it i imagine there's the additional fact that guardians tend to be very... explodey. i'm not sure if friendly fire not being a thing is a strictly mechanical thing for the game to function or something in-lore but if its the former in any capacity then i imagine having x amount of warlocks that all have to share airspace raining down solar nades, with y amount of titans trying to close distance and fight up close, and z amount of hunters trying to go for precision strikes down range all at the same time would get impractical when you scaled it up enough

[chrome fog]

It's not some kind of divine inclination, just practicality and poor coincidence

[dense python]

can someone give a paragraph on the destiny 2 lore please thank you

[hallow fulcrum]

We're dread created before or after witness entered traveller

[hallow fulcrum]

Do you wanna know about like everything or just an overview

[chrome fog]

#📚lore-discussion message

Run down of the major plot beats from the start of D1 til before Final Shape

[chrome fog]

Not certain, supposedly after considering those Psion-based enemies; we know it tried doing a similar process before with Rhulk and made Nezarec

[analog torrent]

triangl = bad guy :(
circle = good guy :)

[hallow fulcrum]

Because the 1st time we saw tormentors were in lightfall

[dense python]

overview

im really interested

[chrome fog]

Specifically a result of collaboration with Calus, who had cloning knowledge and tech - either his own or the people under his employ

[hallow fulcrum]

So there are 2 God like creatures winnower and gardener who played a game a flower game which were set of predefined rules , sort of like game of life look if up basically what happened was due to these predefined rules no matter the start in the end similar patterns emerged ( in less metaphorical terms gardener and winnower are godlike creatures who created a lot of universe type things with same laws of physics etc like our universe and at the end most probably vex the once we fight ere always the winner in those universes ) this lead to gardener creating a new rule (paracausality or powers of light and dark ) to shake things up sort of to get something diffrent which leads to universe of destiny , now let's get into some less God things , so a long time ago in a galaxy far far away a group of humanoid species discovered traveller which helped them develop and basically brought them into utopia but that species got into an existential crisis and couldn't figure out their purpose so they wanted to end all suffering and tried to bring universe to a final state for which they found the veil sort of something like the traveller and tried to combine them but traveller fled so that species combined themselves with powers of dark (veil powers) to become the witness qnd traveller went around bringing species into utopia and witness went around destroying every species and traveller kept fleeing till our system when savathun pulled of some shit and traveller pulled off some shit delaying the witness and after that began the story of our system , also just like every other species traveller bought utopia to our system too but after witness attacked it bought a collapse and as mentioned traveller and savathun pulled some shit delaying witness and traveller created ghosts to resurrect some people and give them powers to kick some ass of witness minions now I can give basic info on the 4 major species we face against

The problem is destiny has shit ton of lore spread out of big and small stories like this is probably not even scratching it , we have got the nine , ahamcara , the vex , the Ishtar collective , and a shit lot more

[hallow fulcrum]

It will be simpler if you just binged watch the byf youtube channel

By the way witness should have had 12 disciples that way savathun would be the one who would betray , being a direct parallel to Jesus

Though to be honest their may be more disciples we may not know of so that may come true

[analog torrent]

Read this https://www.ishtar-collective.net/timeline

When you reach season 1, it gets wordy, and at that point you reference the pins in here

[hallow fulcrum]

By the way savathun was a disciple right

[jagged badge]

No

It could be argued she was being trained/groomed for the role but

She defected ofc

[jagged badge]

I wouldn’t use Unveiling as an objective fact to actually describe the start of Destiny’s universe with

[hallow fulcrum]

It is there for a reason

And to me it kind of answers quite a bit

Though yeah it's really metaphorical

But considering that we now get dms from winnower

And to be fair it is there for a reason

Why would something so metaphorical and so disconnected from everything even be mentioned

Though still there are a lot of questions still regarding everything

[chrome fog]

Still doesn't confirm that Unveiling is reliable on the matter

[jagged badge]

It’s not that it’s metaphorical, it’s that it’s unreliable in general

It’s propaganda given to us by the Witness

There may be elements of truth behind it but

[hallow fulcrum]

The problem is we don't know how much of it is true

[slim elk]

Same deal as Truth to Power

Something in there is probably true.
Good luck figuring out what though

[hallow fulcrum]

Well considering how complicated light and dark saga turned out to be ,who knows what's to come , but if I were to say personally , unveiling makes sense in a way but yeah not at all reliable and no guarantee it's true but I am willing to place my bets

[slim elk]

The big deal is the Winnower is real

Which brings the Wager back to the front

[chrome fog]

Or doesn’t

Because like

[jagged badge]

That doesn’t meant we should take it as true until proven otherwise, especially considering the context of the Witness giving us the Unveiling text as part of its agenda to turn us

[hallow fulcrum]

The thing is if you consider unveiling the vex also make a lot more sense

[chrome fog]

Solely from Entelechy

Which, without it, that’s just taking the word of Unveiling at face value, which we shouldn’t

[hallow fulcrum]

And so does Paracausality itself , it just ties up too beautifully

[hallow fulcrum]

How would unveiling be a propaganda though

Like how would it help witness

[slim elk]

Simple
It's telling us the info to try and convert us to its side

Easily could leave out unflattering details even if its mainly true

[chrome fog]

Which admittedly is very shit propaganda in hindsight but also like look at how long people kept hating in Crow and also wanting to be legit Shadows of Yor, like the nihilistic overtones and the turn towards “Traveler is secretly evil” sentiment even leading into Final Shape shows that the Witness knows its audience

Unveiling tells readers “You’re right, life is just seeing who’s on top and to fight that is irrational”, which validated the vindictiveness of a massive majority of the player base

[hallow fulcrum]

Unveiling seems from the perspective of the winnower though

@chrome fog by the way how do you know it was witness who gave us unveiling texts

[chrome fog]

Consider the source: we get it from communications broadcast from the Pyramids, which Eris was able to decipher via the Relic on the Moon

[hallow fulcrum]

But it could be from the winnower directly too

[chrome fog]

Who controls the Pyramids

Who did we meet with in the start of Arrivals offering Salvation

Who consistently offered Salvation to us regardless of our understanding that it is not a Salvation we wanted?

[hallow fulcrum]

The unveiling is just too out there to be anything close to propaganda

[cedar walrus]

Are all guardians resurrected in the cosmodrome?

[chrome fog]

Not all

[cedar walrus]

I'd like to think mine was rezzed on Mars

being an exo and all

[chrome fog]

The Witness is pretty out there in terms of the kind of entity it is

[slim elk]

Nope.
Just got some fame because the player guardian was revived there

[chrome fog]

No that was from prior to our Rez

[hallow fulcrum]

To be honest it would be simpler to wait and see

[chrome fog]

I think it’s simpler to just trust statements in Unveiling if they have corroborated entries elsewhere

[slim elk]

Suspect we'll get some Winnower presence in Heresy

[chrome fog]

I call shit on the Winnower being relevant in any massive way soon

[slim elk]

That's just being salty there Bionicle..

Winnower is about the only thing left that could shake up the Hive God dynamics that Bungie was talking about.

[chrome fog]

I think it’s stupid to be escalating fairly recently to when we defeated the Witness

[hallow fulcrum]

Winnower by its nature wouldn't want to be relevant in any physical way atleast , if it is a ideological game between winnower and gardener , winnower will just sit and see things unfold wouldn't it

[slim elk]

The games changed a bit now.
Whatever going on with these "Echoes" is new

[chrome fog]

And on their own the Hive can be compelling enough, nothing which we had speculated Heresy to be about had nothing to do with the Winnower

[slim elk]

Plus the Traveler's gonna be infected with Darkness for a while

[hallow fulcrum]

By the way with the echoes being mixture of light and dark does it mean we would see more prismatic type shit ,like more combos of light and dark powers phenomenon

[chrome fog]

No just more paradigm, status quo breaking stuff

[slim elk]

Remains to be seen but probably will

Technically everything in the Pale Heart is a combination of light and dark

[chrome fog]

Which, again, no one was looking for Winnower stuff before we were dead set on the Witness not being the Winnower after less than a handful of years debating over it and wanting to kick its ass

[slim elk]

Memories are the darkness domain, and the entire playable space in the Pale Heart is based off Memories

[chrome fog]

Only because now we defeated the Witness people want to take this other supposed entity that they think is more powerful because people want to keep rushing escalation

[hallow fulcrum]

The dialoge and tone between witness and winnower have been quite distinct for quite a time now ,

[chrome fog]

Yea and still people wanted to debate if they were or weren’t the same since BL release. Some even continued until Lightfall

Just deal with Hive, Scorn, and Vex for now. Like it’s barely even been a month since Final Shape

And the next project for Destiny is called Voyages or something or other, we’re not going to be dealing with cosmic threats the same level as the Witness any time soon

[slim elk]

Frontiers is the codename

[chrome fog]

[slim elk]

And it's probably going to have Heresy be the bridge to it given there's something going on with the Dreadnought

[chrome fog]

And being the last Episode in the current road plan, like that’s not a keen observation

[slim elk]

Indeed
The question is what that build up will be

[hallow fulcrum]

By the way are Io titan and mercury gone forever

[slim elk]

Titans back

Been no updates on Io or Mercury

[hallow fulcrum]

Since when I am not aware

[chrome fog]

Most likely back if the other two destinations returned

[chrome fog]

Since Witch Queen

[slim elk]

Season of the Deep

Asha, Taken Sloane. All that stuff was on Titan

[chrome fog]

It’s in that rundown in the pins

[slim elk]

Anyway
Heresy has something big going on with the Dreadnought and Bungie promising to shake up the Hive God dynamics

..
There's not really a status quo to mess with though

Last we heard from Xivu was her running away and hiding after getting banished from her throne world by Eris

Pretty big change already

[chrome fog]

Isn’t that the whole schtick of Xivu

[slim elk]

???

I'm pointing out there's been a number of rapid changes to the Hive God's that Bungies promise to shake things up is a bit weird

[chrome fog]

And Xivu’s whole deal is that the Sword Logic is all she has, to maintain status quo is to maintain any sort of semblance to normality to her, to which we’re gonna wreck because that’ll lead to a thematically poignant moment of either realization of what they did being horrible or delusional mania and doubling down

[slim elk]

What I focus on with Heresy is whatever is going on with the Dreadnought

Things been derelict for years, now somethings causing it to become active?

[ember storm]

Well Xivu’s whole thing is sword logic above all else, servitude to her gods, etc

Closest thing would be a major development with them

Didn’t they mention some eldritch force on the Dreadnaught?

[slim elk]

Yep

Which is what makes me think the Winnower is making its presence known

And as the Winnower seems to espouse sword logic..

[chrome fog]

Isn’t it literally saying goodbye in the Nacre entry

Vaguely remember that

[ember storm]

Well from the picture we got at the end of FS, Xivu is supposedly claiming the remains of Willbreaker

Technically the sword was destroyed and shouldn’t exist anymore, but it’s more conceptual than literal

The representation of Echoes was a bunch of vex standing in front of Failsafe’s “face” so I’m willing to take it as an artistic choice

[slim elk]

How is this a goodbye?
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/nacre

[ember storm]

Xivu is probably fairly shaken up after everything and trying to pick the pieces back up from wherever she can

So she probably just takes the Dreadnaught, seeing as there’s no proper throne world to her name anymore

[chrome fog]

Who says “be seeing you” in any situation aside from going away

It’s a synonymous phrase

[slim elk]

Yeah. And that heavily implies it will be seeing us again

[chrome fog]

Do

[slim elk]

It flat out says "im not so easy to be rid of"

[chrome fog]

Have you never heard any usage of the phrase “Be seeing you”

Do you know what it means, that it’s not entirely literal

[slim elk]

Your acting like the Winnower is never gonna be seen again

The whole point of that lore tab is confirming it exists, and an implied promise it will still be around

[chrome fog]

Because we just beat the Witness! And it’s whole deal is that it fucks off and doesn’t intervene because life is going to naturally self-destruct from an inherent selfishness

Thematically we’re not going to be seeing the Winnower for the same amount of time we never saw Nezarec from Red War

[slim elk]

Your opinion with no basis for it lol

[chrome fog]

People wanted to kill Crow and they never gave them that, what makes you think they’re going to give you the Winnower after just defeating the perpetrator behind essentially all the conflict of the universe

[slim elk]

The fault with your line of thinking is presuming Bungie will immediately leap to going against the Winnower

[gentle geyser]

We will not physically see the winnower in d2, its just not happening

[chrome fog]

You people can’t tell cohesive narrative for shit

[slim elk]

I'm saying it's probably going to make its presence known blatantly, thus the build-up

[gentle geyser]

The witness had 4 years of build up

Before even being a true main villain of a dlc

[slim elk]

Or be an overarching background figure.
To draw a comparison. Sauron
The titular Lord of the Rings.
Never seen directly in the books

[gentle geyser]

The winnower only exists so far to lore nerds, the only way someone who doesn’t read lore to know about the winnower is a small line in the raid

The winnower will not be in d2 as a main villain

It’s extremely unlikely

[chrome fog]

There not gonna be a D3 either, that shit is more work for a lesser outcome

[slim elk]

Indeed
So an Episode where its presence is revealed in a mainline story is what I'm betting on

[gentle geyser]

I can maybe see d3 happening if whatever comes next also does extremely well

[chrome fog]

How is that build up

[gentle geyser]

💀

[chrome fog]

How the fuck is a dedicated episode for five months build up, that’s just outright coming out the gate with the Winnower

You made it a main concern of the narrative for five months

[gentle geyser]

Man I haven’t even progressed past step 2 how the fuck am I gonna find out that the winnower killed ikora in episode 7 step 26

[chrome fog]

Why the fuck would they put work for the same potential issue as D1 where years of progress gets reset once again because shit doesn’t carry over? And if you just keep shit from D2, then why not just keep developing D2 if you’re going to make more D2?”

[gentle geyser]

Anyways remove shadowkeep

Stop updating oldgen

We good for years to come

[slim elk]

Corporations make stupid moves. Plus Sony overlords

That's a topic for another channel though

[gentle geyser]

Id rather get an actual new faction that is a 100% new alien race that becomes the center of attention for longer than a year, we are leaving the solar system most likely, its time to see whats beyond, light and dark saga is done

We don’t need to learn more about the winnower right now

If the winnower wanted to stop us it could at any point

[chrome fog]

That’s a stupid excuse for D3 to exist that doesn’t match with the work done on the backend of D2

Again. It’s more effort to do D3 when they can just keep working on D2

[grand jungle]

so whn we kill the wittness says "we i-i dont understand" what does he mean

[deep pagoda]

If the hive were able to get the light because they exorcised there worms, and were already chosen in the past… then can’t the Eliksni aswell be given the light?

The ones not using stasis, like house light are not dark touched, and were already chosen by the traveler before

[chrome fog]

It was an amalgamation of an alien civilization, the first one that interacted with the Traveler; to that end, it has been referring to itself as "We" as technically it's composed of multiple individuals. This is also further reinforced with the Dissenters whom we interact with in the Final Shape.

This video also helps elaborate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CKckjryVI

[chrome fog]

Technically the Hive got accidentally skipped over because the Witness had manipulated their population into accepting the offer of the Worm Gods; whilst the Traveler had a very limited but still impactful choice in whom the Ghosts could resurrect, the Hive got the blessing they had been cheated out of. The Eliksni already got their own, with their advancements in technology

[ember storm]

Savathun is the only one who exorcised her worm and that’s just because it was just about to consume her

All lucent hive still have their worms (aside from the Lightbearers, since their parasites just starved while their host was dead)

Normal rank and file keep their worms satiated with the light given by the wellspring

It’s not like having darkness is what determines who gets the light

[heady monolith]

what is an aphelion? im just learning now that its apparently a very strong creature in lore

[ember storm]

you’ve got all the context

they’re incredibly dangerous and also incredibly mysterious, we have no clue what they really are

just that they’re out there and your only possible (and astronomically slim) chance of survival would be escape

[heady monolith]

do you happen to know any relevant lore tabs surrounding them?

[trim grotto]

There's only a couple but yeah gimmne a sec

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/aphelion

Two entries, two transcripts

The Items have nothing of worth

[heady monolith]

well that first entry wasnt creepy at all

thank you for the help

[deep pagoda]

If the hive were able to get the light because they exorcised there worms, and were already chosen in the past… then can’t the Eliksni aswell be given the light?

[ember storm]

I

I just answered that

[trim grotto]

The main difference between the two is that the Eliksni got their Golden Age. The Hive never had a chance to be blessed by the Light before.

However, should the Traveler so decide it... yes, it is plausible. For now, however, we can assume not.

[willow dagger]

Oh

[ember storm]

It’s worth noting that nothing that led up to the lucent hive’s creation was of the traveler’s direct actions

It was specifically inaction on the part of the traveler, the reason for which presumably being what was described above

It’s not like some divine order that made all the ghosts defect to the hive, they did that of their own whims

so it basically just gave them the benefit of the doubt for being epically swindled by the witness

I honestly don’t think the traveler is going to be doing much of anything for the foreseeable future, though

[chrome fog]

You could make an argument for inaction being an action of itself - as the Traveler demonstrated when Rhulk tried to pick apart a Ghost that she can intervene - but it also tracks with her want of non-interference

[shadow crypt]

do we do anything with the remains of bosses

like rhulk

[winter edge]

Is the Aegis we used in FS the same one in VoG?

[dim minnow]

some guy name Marco was tasked with transporting some of Rhulk's remains through Mars, but something happend that led to him blowing up the remains along with himself

[shadow crypt]

Oh lmao

[dim minnow]

could be a manifestation from our/the Traveler's memories

[dim minnow]

sparrow crashed, containment broke, remains leaked out and started latching onto him

[winter edge]

But then did our guardian recognise ergo sum as the sword that is on our coffin?

[dim minnow]

maybe, but we just don't give a shit

this shit ain't nothing to me man

[winter edge]

I just thought we would see this as a ominous sign of what's to come

[trim grotto]

The Corridors of Time are a maze of pathways into various timelines. The existence of our tomb in a timeline does not mean it is the future of our timeline. And it is, specifically, a timeline.

[fresh zephyr]

Especially since we know in like 99% of timelines everyone died terribly or got corrupted by the Witness, including us.

[gentle pendant]

How much lore do we have on what was going on in the red war while we were off

[dim minnow]

The original Solstice Armor sets had a lot from what Zavala, Ikora, and Cayde were doing to what happened with several guardians (most of whom died)

Y1 moments of triumph sparrow and I think Ghost Shell

a few Ghost Stories pages

[gentle pendant]

Oh epic

I’ll go check those out

[dim minnow]

the first part of Eva's Journey goes over what happened with her

[analog torrent]

Can Lightbearers sense other Lightbearers? Ghosts can detect environmental Light levels, but are Lightbearers capable of doing the same and does this mean they can detect Light in others? I remember the Speaker saying something about no Light in Ghaul but idk if that’s a Speaker thing or if Lightbearers can do the same

[dim minnow]

I'm not quite certain on that one

I'd assume not

[grand jungle]

Is it possible for failsafe to get a body like a vex goblin?

[ruby pivot]

question, since we killed witness " The Guardian" has a very big space for their ascendant plane right?

probably explain to me how the expansion of the ascendant plane works but from what i know we got our own ascendant plane after we helped eris in dreadnaught in d1 (so i have heard)

and ascendant plane expands on how many we kill right?

[jagged badge]

No

For one, you’re conflating Throne Worlds specifically with the Ascendant Plane as a whole

Two, we do not have, nor have we ever had a Throne World

We don’t practice Sword Logic and we don’t receive power in tithes from killing our enemies

[ruby pivot]

ooohh whats the difference of throne worlds and ascendant plane again?

whenever we go "taken" is ascendant plane right?

idk how you call that traversal between planes kind of thing but i know its ascendant plane related

[jagged badge]

The Ascendant Plane is just that whole dimension or whatever. Throne Worlds are spaces carved into the Ascendant Plane

[ruby pivot]

oohhh so ascendant plane is like a container example and throne worlds are like items put inside the container correct?

in simple terms

[jagged badge]

I suppose

[sharp osprey]

if Frontiers is about the war for Torobatl between the Cabal and Hive, a sick name idea i just had for that expansion is "Ascendancy" or just "Ascendant". It refers to both the Ascendant plane, which obviously has relevance to Xivu Arath and the Hive, and Caiatl's Cabal, sometimes called the Cabal Ascendancy.

[empty fern]

Sand and Honor

[sharp osprey]

am i misremembering something or didnt Toland suggest that he wants a hive brood for himself at some point?

[empty fern]

Probably something like that

[sharp osprey]

hmm

[iron mortar]

https://youtu.be/-kgnJ7Yozbg?si=yVu58oyZFg-gk_V_
Byf calm down here

I don't even know if this is clickbait or he is jumping to conclusions

[sharp osprey]

i mean its pretty likely that its the winnower in that entry

[trim grotto]

True. I'm currently pondering the idea that the Winnower is an entity... but not one that acts. It's like a mythological god, or the embodyment of a force or concept. It is the nature of winnowing, it is the face of death, but the natural cycle of death. It calls itself responsible for the act of evolutionary rivalry, so perhaps that is what it is. It is that conflict, that cutting away of the chaff.

[sharp osprey]

yeah, i like the idea of the winnower not really being a being, but instead is just representative of death and evolution and natural selection and all that

[ruby pivot]

you know what i would like, asura level of gigantism of the winnower almost like wyzen or Chakravartin

[empty fern]

Best I can do is gurann lagann

https://tenor.com/view/gurren-lagann-space-galaxy-galaxies-gif-16402933

[willow dagger]

Is it possible for failsafe to turn against us?

[empty fern]

Probably not

She was pretty focused on the last captain even after his death so, I don’t think she herself would choose to betray us (even without the filter)

[hallow fulcrum]

Was savathun a disciple

[jagged badge]

No

[glossy coral]

She was very much against what the witness tried to do, from what I understand

[hallow fulcrum]

Still she was present in the collapse I am not asking if she was a true disciple like rhulk did she have the title

[glossy coral]

No

Also she was present during the collapse while also trying to help humanity and the traveler

[jagged badge]

Secretly

Her working against the Witness in secret wouldn’t be evidence against her having the title of Disciple

The Witness still believed she was loyal up until Witch Queen after all

[glossy coral]

I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that she is a desciple tho

or was, in any case

[jagged badge]

Oh I’m not saying she is

[glossy coral]

Wouldn't be suprised if the Witness thought about making her one tho

[jagged badge]

But just that that specifically wouldn’t preclude it

[glossy coral]

true, true

[jagged badge]

Iirc that is the idea

That she was being groomed for the role

[glossy coral]

and then went ahead and "ruined" everything

Sidenote: Savathun with the light got a major drip upgrade imo

I didn't know what she looked like before seeing her for the first time in D2 and her old design looks really goofy to me without the crown/helmet thing

[orchid flame]

Who's etched onto the someday shotgun?

[jagged badge]

Lakshmi-2

The lore tab is about her too

[orchid flame]

Thanks, I'll read it now

I was slaying out with it in crucible and realised it's not banshee

[ruby pivot]

thats enough

[ruby pivot]

no, but she has the moment where she thought we hated her and ready to throw hands if she still got access to her weapons

forgot what week was that, week 2 i think? forgot where you can actually hear the dialogue

[ruby cedar]

Oh wow...

the traveler chose Savathun

😮

[trim grotto]

Aye, it did

[ruby cedar]

Thats prety neat

Was she dying cuz of the separation?

from the worm/

[trim grotto]

That, and the quite large shard of crystal in her side.

[ruby cedar]

(she said something about the separation but wasnt sure it was DUE to it or.. the events after it)

Ah noted

honestly that last bit of the cinmatic is cliffanger worthy xD

[jagged badge]

Kinda

[ruby cedar]

I just got to that part of the story no spoilers for future x

[jagged badge]

I’m not sure if what I was gonna say counts or not as spoilers but I’ll zip it regardless haha

[ember storm]

||The game tries pretending that it was a specific action of the traveler like it signed a bill which isn’t totally accurate||

||Immaru and the other ghosts defected of their own will, the traveler just didn’t stop them||

The thing is this is still how the plot is viewing it? So it’s like

Not really spoilers, you just have to pick it up from lore tabs

And general context clues

[ruby cedar]

Ah cool!

Savathun as a character and the whole concept seem really interesting so far

Where in The Witch Queen

is the traveler

[ember storm]

floating

[ruby cedar]

Savathun is trying to seal it away but I am not sure where it actually is

Just in space or on earth

[ember storm]

during the final mission?

It’s literally there in the sky

[ruby cedar]

i am doing "the ritual"

havent started it yet.

OKAY NOW i see it!

how did she get it to.. go there

[ember storm]

stole it

[ruby cedar]

where was it before? Was it on earth?

[ember storm]

Yeah

Right above the last city

[ruby cedar]

cool! (yeah cant see it now cuz obv the city I can visit is in the future)

[ember storm]

yeah

https://static0.gamerantimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/destiny-2-ikora-tower-portal.jpg

It was kinda wild going to the tower and just not seeing it anymore

[ruby cedar]

oh neat! love that

love permentant changes to the game like that

[ruby pivot]

what or who do you guys think will kill us?

since in dawn season we got ergo sum on our grave

and we got ergo sum

definitely not my favorite weapon dunno why they said its my fave weapon but ok

still, i wonder what killed us tho

[ember storm]

It wasn’t a real sword

Just compare the models

[ruby pivot]

oh diff one?

[ember storm]

I mean it was fake

Not a real sword

Ornamental

[ruby pivot]

oh you meant that ye ye

[ember storm]

I also don’t think we’re ever going to see that thing happen

It was a distant possible future

Not predetermined

It would also mean bungie would force the guardian’s canonical favorite weapon they bring everywhere to be Bastion, which I don’t think is ever going to happen

[ruby pivot]

hmmmm true, but still we would meet our final death somewhere but not right now

[ember storm]

I doubt it

So long as destiny is going to keep being a franchise I don’t think they’re going to have us just die

[ruby pivot]

yeah franchise wise they wont

tho if my guardian dies, favorite sword would probably be lament

gun wise perfect paradox

now if only bungo would let us have another perfect paradox

[ember storm]

We are

[ruby pivot]

its only 3 in the failsafe saint 14 weapons tho

linear, sidearm, forgot the other

[ember storm]

You know it was only 2 the week of release

We’re getting more as the episode progress

It’s coming back

[ruby pivot]

is it every week they bring 1 dawn weapons?

[chrome fog]

There’s the equal possibility we foster peace by quelling any threats and we remain alive until the natural end of the universe. Like Waltz has said it is only an alternate future we saw our grave in

That’s the whole deal of alternate timelines

[ruby pivot]

but bioncle...its our canon event

nah messing with ya

but yeah, since we diverged i suppose we will live long

[mellow flicker]

Hello, I need to confirm a doubt about Ikora and Eris

Are they in love? Cause it felt like they had recurring moments that made me think they were a couple

A friend tells me that Ikora was in love with Cayde, another friend tells me she was/is in love with Osiris

[gray marten]

Osiris was Ikoras teacher and to some extent almost like a father figure. I would not say they were ever in love.

[jagged badge]

Neither of those are true

[mellow flicker]

That's what I thought

[mellow flicker]

What about what I thought?

Ikora and Eris?

[jagged badge]

As for Eris, they are also friends. That being said I have seen others interpret stuff between them as potentially romantic

However, the game is definitely leaning hard into Eris and Drifter as a couple so

[mellow flicker]

I mean, they felt multiple times that Ikora felt too attached to Eris, while Eris was on her own world

[slim elk]

Cayde was the only healthy relationship Ikora had for a while..

She refused to speak with her ghost for decades

[mellow flicker]

But Eris felt like she looked Ikora as someone that she can trust blindly

[gray marten]

Something to note is that Ikoras ghost lost a lot of respect for ikora when she started dealing with eris and the darkness. I believe that Ikora as a seeker of knowledge and leader of the hidden saw Eris as a tool/resource to learn of the world she didn’t understand.

[jagged badge]

Well, Cayde and Ikora’s relationship is complicated in the sense that Cayde worried whether she even liked him at all and she regretted after his death not being softer and more open with him. Like that line where she mentions about how Cayde’s jokes weren’t funny but she wanted to laugh and wished she had

[mellow flicker]

To be honest I don't even remember Ikora's ghost

[jagged badge]

Tragic stuff tbh

[mellow flicker]

Wasn't her ghost the only one from the vanguard that wasn't mentioned or had a role in TFS?

[jagged badge]

He’s never had any dialogue in game to my knowledge

[gray marten]

Her ghost is ophiucus and they went 60 years without talking to each other. We’ve only seen them twice in cutscenes

[jagged badge]

He is in lore a fair bit though

[mellow flicker]

Damn

[jagged badge]

Unlike Sundance who didn’t even have any lore dialogue as of her death

[mellow flicker]

So wait... 60 years ago was destiny 1?

[jagged badge]

No

[gray marten]

No

[mellow flicker]

If the ghost of Ikora went silent because of Eris

[jagged badge]

Destiny 1 occurred roughly 10 years ago in lore, as it has irl

[gray marten]

That was prior lol

[jagged badge]

Wasn’t Eris physically lost in the Hellmouth until she showed up in D1?

[gray marten]

Loss of respect happened after the 60 year gap. The 60 year gap was not because they didn’t like each other. They just didn’t feel the need I guess?

[gray marten]

Correct

[mellow flicker]

Also is our ghost name Ghost? Considering that it has the G as like it is his name

[jagged badge]

Well, they’re all Ghosts with a capital G, but yes ours is just called Ghost too

Ours isn’t the only one actually

[gentle geyser]

Its named Ghost because every player is the main character

[jagged badge]

Tyra Karn’s Ghost is just called Ghost too since she doesn’t name them

[gentle geyser]

Same reason why we are The Guardian

Its easier to avoid using names

[jagged badge]

There’s a whole interaction between them where her Ghost talks about wanting a name so Tyra says “name yourself” and then they just don’t and the cycle repeats or something

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/dont-call-me-ghost#book-ghost-stories

[mellow flicker]

Wait, so every ghost's name was given by its guardian?

[slender ether]

Curious btw, so obviously, prismatic is just all the elements in one (as it seems anyway) and i was Curious on how one can use both at once since stasis while driven on individual will, is to control others while strand is flowing with others.

[jagged badge]

Well, some are named by their peers or they named themselves I’d imagine

[ember storm]

It’s up to the ghost

[jagged badge]

But there are a lot of Ghosts who want their Guardian to name them and consider that their true name

[ember storm]

Some waited until their guardian could give them one, some gave it to themselves, etc

[mellow flicker]

Did we have any interaction with our ghost choosing a name

[ember storm]

There’s a ghost named Tommy and his guardian is named Ghost

[ember storm]

nope

[jagged badge]

Glint was nicknamed “Pulled Pork” by others for ages but as soon as Crow called him Glint, he’s Glint

[ember storm]

personally I think it’s because the guardian has the self agency of a house plant and never does anything unless specifically prompted to

we had to have the traveler tell us directly twice to even attempt at using new supers

[mellow flicker]

Also I didn't check much on the lore books, but are there books dedicated for our guardian?

[ember storm]

not entire books

we are in a few select entries though

like hawkmoon

[slender ether]

I know that there is entires from the hidden

[mellow flicker]

But like super simple like explaining what happened in main story or like nice additional info?

[slender ether]

We are VIP#2017 if i remember correctly

[ember storm]

That’s not what lore books do

[ember storm]

2014

[mellow flicker]

Oh well yeah

Close to Oryx was it?

[ember storm]

Because D1’s release date

Oryx is 2015 because that was taken king

[slender ether]

Ok thanks i didnt remember the release date for d1

[mellow flicker]

So do we know about the most recent and the oldest VIP?

[ember storm]

they’re not listed by age or importance

it’s just a funny reference

[slender ether]

I think one of the older vips is zavala right? Could be wrong

I know its not listed by age but you know.

[ember storm]

they just have a database filled of “VIPs”

[mellow flicker]

But I remember that the whole point of the VIP catalogue is to keep an eye on possible threats?

[ember storm]

no

[mellow flicker]

Anyway, it seems that probably at September they will probably do an event about 10 years of destiny?

[slender ether]

Curious btw, so obviously, prismatic is just all the elements in one (as it seems anyway) and i was Curious on how one can use both at once since stasis while driven on individual will, is to control others while strand is flowing with others.

[ember storm]

That’s not really tied to using the powers themselves

That’s just a vague understanding of them

[mellow flicker]

Powers is not exclusively the ideal manifested

[slender ether]

But that is how its controled. Atleast, thats how its stated in the lightfall campaign

[mellow flicker]

It's not like stasis and strand are as opposites. We still can use light and darkness together which also has different things

Light being reality, darkness imagination/mind, was it?

[ember storm]

it was just a mindset we had to understand

[mellow flicker]

Yep

[ember storm]

We can’t force strand to cooperate

The Weave is the psychic blanket tying life together

Strand is just the method of utilizing it

[mellow flicker]

The whole point of those mindsets was to make it more obvious that Darkness is not evil, it is just something that exist

[ember storm]

And you can’t force it to cooperate

that’s all it means

instead of like tearing at the strings trying to take what we need, we let the strings wrap around us

[slender ether]

But stasis while not forcing to cooperate, to make slow and detain. Can one use multiple mindsets at once?

[mellow flicker]

By the way, is the whole Pale Heart map being similar to zones we have seen before because of the whole imagination becoming reality, right?

[ember storm]

Strand is the only thing that required a mindset to discover

And that was just to claim it for the first time

[mellow flicker]

Is that because of the merging of veil and the traveler? Or is it intrinsic of the traveler?

I am curious if the traveler real inside appearance was probably different or pure white before Witness went inside

[ember storm]

It’s because the witness is forcing darkness (which is of the mind) into the pale heart

It would’ve just been empty otherwise

Darkness holds the memory and the light made it physical

[meager coral]

Iirc the pale heart is a mix of everyone, including the witnesses memories brought physical by the light

It’s why stuff like the old tower exist, the witnesses place of formation, figures of the hive sisters, etc

[mellow flicker]

Yeah that's what I understood

[ember storm]

The larger areas exist because of who’s entering the pale heart

The specific dioramas of real events were the Witness’ own creations

All the glowy stone statues and rocks were the witness

All the stuff that’s just normal things from outside was automatic

[mellow flicker]

Btw, beside the final shape actuation, didn't the witness partially accomplish his plan? He was able to merge the Veil and the Traveler?

[ember storm]

that was just the method leading to the final shape

merging the veil with the traveler was only part of its plan

it didn’t succeed in what it wanted

[mellow flicker]

So he simply thought that it was possible to get the final shape by merging the 2 of them?

I still don't understand why Witness' decided to aim for the final shape after seeing the Veil

[ember storm]

they saw life as pointless after generations of having the traveler with their civilization and not real having purpose

things are created just to eventually die for no reason, that’s what their conclusion was

it was just the ultimate form of nihilism

[mellow flicker]

So it wasn't more about seeing the Veil, but more about seeing for such a long time the traveler that didn't show any interaction with them?

[ember storm]

the precursors just found the veil and realized what they could do with it

nobody told them to do it, which was the point

[mellow flicker]

Oh okay

Also are the Ahmkara linked to one of the 2 elements? They feel like they are supposed to have a bigger role

[ember storm]

neither specifically

although in stuff like Unveiling there’s mentions of “insects” that sustained themselves by flying through the flowers, while the worms fed on what was left

now that we know the worm gods just used to be some giant fish that mutated, though, I don’t think it’s relevant anymore

Ahamkara just exist separate of light or dark

[mellow flicker]

Oh okay

I thought that, considering how Traveler terraformed planets when it arrived on sol system, I thought that its power influenced some species and evolving them in something else

[ember storm]

ahamkara are from outside sol

nowhere specific

[mellow flicker]

Not like I am sure that humans evolved and living much longer thanks to it or for simple evolution of medicine

[mellow flicker]

They arrived at sol when traveler arrived tho?

[ember storm]

no

and the traveler has no direct influence on life that already exists

it just cultivates places where life wouldn’t ordinarily exists when it visited civilizations

[mellow flicker]

Okay okay