📚lore-discussion

[desert tree]

I dont get something about Red Death Reformed: if Red Death is a Medic Guardian's wet dream, why is it considered Shard on Sight in lore because of how dangerous it is?

[dim minnow]

it had a... history

granted we don't know much about this history

all we know is that a Guardian went mad and created the Red Death (and most likely Crimson)

these weapons were infamous for being Guardian killers

and the original wielder used them to hunt Guardians

the lore tab describes how a fireteam managed to put him down for good and one of them took the Red Death and reforged it for a new purpose

[desert tree]

so thats why it seems less murder-focused than its D1 Counterpart

[chrome fog]

The loretab of the D2 version explains the cleansing process that’s transformed it to the D2 version

[modern lodge]

So what made it a guardian killer, more so than a regular weapon?

[ember storm]

it was specifically used to kill (not like eliminate crucible opponents) guardians in cold blood

if the absurd amount of blood staining the gun didn’t make it clear

I don’t think it was about the potentially destructive properties of the gun itself, more so its self-healing and the things people decided to do with it

[ruby pivot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m84xJm5jVeg

u guys know about this?

[fresh zephyr]

Someone posted it earler, yeah. It's pretty interesting.

[ruby pivot]

is this one of the endings we could have gotten?

[fresh zephyr]

It's apparently the one they were going to go with before the delay

[modern lodge]

Curious to what the purple stuff is, not stasis right

[chrome fog]

It’s apparent that it would’ve been Darkness in an undiluted form,

The build up of the combination of Lighg and Darkness has been brought to this point

[modern lodge]

Probably a new darkness subclass

I prefer current TFS and prismatic

[chrome fog]

No, more like the utilization of Prismatic as a power

[modern lodge]

Oooooohhh right

[chrome fog]

Like it’s not wholly Darkness goop, the other side is Light

Most likely the point was to reform Ghost (Light) from our memory of them (Darkness)

Which I would’ve liked, but also I liked how clean the ending we got was

[modern lodge]

Yeah nah i watched the whole thing u was specifically referring to the purple shards

[ruby pivot]

some people in the comment section said that if we go through that ending there would be more questions

[chrome fog]

Gives Cayde a proper exit so that fans are satisfied but also so they don’t have to clamor for him to be included in the future

[ruby pivot]

or people prefer this ending because the ending we got cayde died

[chrome fog]

Iiii don’t see how, I think it’s perfectly in line with how we regard Light and Darkness, but also not all of the player base is keen to being privy to that

[ruby pivot]

for me, having cayde for a short while is fine but not in the long run since it destroys his death and rebirth and death once again

[chrome fog]

Still some old player who’d question what’s the nature of Darkness now that we wield it when before it was treated as the root of evil

[slim elk]

My bet is the og plan was to make Cayde the vendor for the Pale Heart before deciding to swap it for Ghost

[ruby pivot]

i mean even cayde seems uncomfortable being brought back to life

[acoustic trail]

what are throne worlds?

[chrome fog]

That and also consider how expensive it’d be to keep Nolan North on deck for voicing

[ruby pivot]

since he did say that he missed the peace he got more than he missed ikora and presumably everyone else

[slim elk]

Didn't help he had no idea what was going on..
And then had to keep secrets from Ikora and Zavala

(Ahamkara being the reason he's there and not the Traveler)

[ruby pivot]

ye especially that cayde rebirth art cutscene

was wondering why is riven tentacles even there

[chrome fog]

Wish

[ruby pivot]

yeah i thought it made sense when i arrived at the ascension mission

[slim elk]

Anyway
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ii-isolated-incidents
Interesting reports on the enslaved Vex from this.

Including one seemingly trying to talk to a Guardian

[ruby pivot]

oh wait isnt it lahksmi is a copy of maya sundaresh personality?

cuz i am really suspecting the silhoutte figure is maya in the echoes

[slim elk]

Yeah
My bet is its Esi or Maya

Esi did hand herself over to the Vex

[chrome fog]

So, there are a couple of things to explain before covering Throneworlds, but I’ll Tl;dr it for you:

Hive as a society live off of a “Might makes Right” philosophy that, via the parasitic worms they have a sort of symbiosis with, empowers them. They believe that anything that dies does not deserve to exist and this belief is reinforced by their worms being able to ingest the ontological concept of Death. This also results in the accruement of Ascendent Energy, and very powerful Ascendent Hive have a lot of this energy. A side-effect of this stockpile of power is a little space in the Ascendant Plane - itself a weird spirit realm that is a shattered reflection of real space - which they can mold with their mind. This does include making it so you can never die in your Throneworld. Another neat feature is that, should they die in real space/outside of their Throneworld, they are also able to reform their being within said Throneworld

[ruby pivot]

is it during the lightfall? where we go back to the facility and hear the degrading relationship of the 2 because of paranoia and research?

thats what i get from it

[dim minnow]

some lore tabs tell me it's Maya

[slim elk]

From the Veil logs yeah

[ruby pivot]

yes that one, forgot the logs name

[slim elk]

Maya did a full "chorus" and an end result was Lakshmi-2

[shadow crypt]

so how did Maya get like evil

what happened to the original Maya

[ruby pivot]

imagine if the vex choir are singing never gonna give u up

[slim elk]

Yeah
Probably one of the 227 Mayas..
We know what happened to the exo and original Maya

[dim minnow]

Obsession

[ruby pivot]

rick roll from the future

[dim minnow]

yeah, she's still alive

[ruby pivot]

oh right it was said that the vex they captured simulated them right?

i forgot where i heard it tho

lol

[slim elk]

And on other notes
The Winnower being hard confirmed may give a clue what's going on in Heresy.

[dim minnow]

like I'm saying it's the real Maya that is probably behind this

[slim elk]

The question is will she be actively hostile

[shadow crypt]

isn’t she from the golden age

[ruby pivot]

yeah

also i saw the concept arts for the witness on reddit we got like cat witness,bird witness, snake witness, hydra witness

like damn would be a great encounter if IT can change forms

still the light house witness is fine too

[slim elk]

https://tenor.com/view/witness-rage-mad-max-gif-20022990

[slim elk]

Paracausal nonsense.
Fun times lol

[acoustic trail]

whats the lucent transformation?

[slim elk]

Hive getting ghosts and Light

For lack of a better term their bodies are so used to the Darkness they have allergic reactions to the Light

[ruby pivot]

like how they sneeze an acid goop now turns into a healing goop

just kidding but it would be funny

[acoustic trail]

what does this mean?

dont they have the light now?

[dim minnow]

also Luzaku transformed from an Acolyte to a Wizard when she entered the Pale Heart

[acoustic trail]

so savathun hates the darkness right? or at least the witness?

[trim grotto]

Savathûn did not want to perish alongside the universe with the Final Shape.

Which is reasonable.

[shadow crypt]

What’s the situation with Xivu

[acoustic trail]

based

[dim minnow]

she's hiding

getting ready for the next conflict

[shadow crypt]

you think she’s gonna be the next big bad?

[raw hazel]

Depends on what happens during Heresy.

[slim elk]

Xivus just a loose end right now

[raw hazel]

It’s supposed to “shake up” the Hive Gods, whatever that entails.

[slim elk]

She's mortal, cut off from her throne and hiding somewhere

[dim minnow]

Winnower might not even be a legit big bad

who know, maybe Destiny will be a never ending story

[slim elk]

It probably is hosting the metaverse over in Neomuna lol

[iron mortar]

You mean Nathan Fillion?

[inner drift]

The winnower is clearly a metaphor for capitalism 😔

[dim minnow]

at this point I'm starting to think the Veil is not the Winnower but is instead part of the Gardener

[iron mortar]

Nolan North voices ghost

[slim elk]

That fails.
Gardener-Light doesn't do mental stuff

[iron mortar]

Nathan voices Cayde, Nolan only did Cayde in forsaken because of Nathan scheduling issues

[slim elk]

And Veils clearly Dark aligned

[inner drift]

Nah we know the traveller is representative of the Gardner since paracausality is the additional rule the Gardner added to the game

[dim minnow]

counterpoint:

1. Several sources indicate that the Veil and Traveler are two halves to a whole
2. Light and Darkness are needed for Life which the Gardener advocates for

[shadow crypt]

gardener is traveler?

or another entity

[dim minnow]

yes, but the Veil is a missing part of it

[inner drift]

Counter-counterpoint:

1. The Witness refers to itself as the “first knife” and which is associated with the winnower and is in constant opposition with the traveller
2. I dunno gimme a minute

[slim elk]

Yeah
I'm just glad the Winnowers existence is hard confirmed

No more doubts about that so we can actually figure out info on it

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that the Gardener =/= Light

and the WInnower =/= Darkness

they are metaphors for something else entirely

also, Winnower is described as being Formless

[inner drift]

I know but the first knife = witness

[dim minnow]

so?

[inner drift]

And the first knife is a concept related to the winnower and the witness was literally trying to carve into the traveller for the final shape

So the traveller is definitely at least related to the Gardner

[iron mortar]

The can of worms this would open up, if guardians are able to revive ghosts, the new ending is much better

[dim minnow]

but the Witness acts for itself, not the Winnower

it even states that no one can control how the FIrst Knife cuts

[iron mortar]

Like it is a cute metaphor for the guardian returning the favor of ghosts and reviving them but it would be too broken and basically make us ultra god

[inner drift]

The witness is actively trying to bring about the final shape which is also the objective of the winnower

[dim minnow]

pretty miuch outright saying that it is not acting at the behest of the Winnower

[dim minnow]

well yes but actually no

[inner drift]

You mf

[dim minnow]

yes, the Winnower and Witness both believe in a final shape

BUT

The Witness' final shape is explicitly NOT what the Winnower envisions for it

this is established

if anything, Oryx was a lot closer to acting towards the Winnower's ideal FInal Shape than the Witness ever was

[slim elk]

By the nacre entry, Winnowers espouses the Sword Logic

[dim minnow]

Nacre

[slim elk]

Which probably means Immaru of all people put it the most sufficiently

[dim minnow]

and yes, the Winnower does align a lot more towards the Hive

[inner drift]

Yes but the whole “game” the winnower and the Gardner are playing is based on Conways game of life, the final shape in both instances is literally just a state of entropy where nothing changes fundamentally they are both trying to achieve the same thing

[dim minnow]

same lore entry also has the Winnower shit talk the Witness

[inner drift]

Which lore entry?

[dim minnow]

calling it a necrolite or somethinf

[dim minnow]

Nacre exotic ship, there was a bug preventing its lore tab from being read, but Bungie fixed it today

[slim elk]

The difference is Witness wants to "shut down" the game
Winnower has someone "win" the game

[dim minnow]

it's the entry that hard confirmed Winnower

yeah that part

[inner drift]

Okay okay I haven’t read it gimme a sec

[dim minnow]

there is a huge difference between letting Life play out until it reaches its natural end and just forcing everything to come to a halt

[slim elk]

Also heavily implies it doesn't care by the method its done

Which fits well with Hive getting power from stuff that isn't violence or killing people

[acoustic trail]

are the hive (besides the big royal ones) just complete bee-hive zombies? or are they actually living sentient beings? are broods like factions or are they actual mind-controlled bee hive thing all controlled by the head of the brood?

[inner drift]

Damn ngl the winnower has rizz

Like just throwing that out there

[inner drift]

The hive do have individual autonomy we have a ton of examples of this

[dim minnow]

Hive are not a Hive mind, but they do have an over-reliance to their pyramid-scheme-based heirarchy system

[inner drift]

Luzaku is our most recent example

Also probably our friendliest

[acoustic trail]

and is there a singular leader of the hive? or does each of the 3 brothers control one part of it?

[slim elk]

Her ghost is probably quietly terrified of us lol

[eager trout]

What happened in Destiny 1?

[inner drift]

Like… tldr?

[dim minnow]

2 sisters and one sister turned brother

anyways, the latter

[inner drift]

Oryx is a trans icon 🏳️‍⚧️

[dim minnow]

hive are separated into three main broods each led by one of the three original Hive gods

Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath

[slim elk]

Well..
Was lol

[dim minnow]

these large broods have smaller broods that serve under them

[chrome fog]

Actors expensive

[slim elk]

He's dead and rotting at the bottom of the ocean now

[dim minnow]

like Crota's Brood which serves Oryx because Crota is Oryx's son

[inner drift]

I’d recommend reading the books of sorrow but it was 3 main hive gods in control of things until we did our stuff and killed one and made the other mortal and then savathuns sorta doing her own thing rn

[dim minnow]

his body isn't rotting

[empty fern]

Nuh uh

[inner drift]

😔

[empty fern]

Get dovahed oryx

[dim minnow]

why isn't it rotting

[empty fern]

[inner drift]

Maybe it just takes a really long time since he’s really big

Also exoskeleton

[dim minnow]

thedeadrotwhydoesitnotrot

[eager trout]

Welcome to Destiny, we have:
The Hive (they're not a hive mind)
The Vex (they're highly advanced robots from the future but are simple-minded)
Cabal (they're not known for their intelligence but are incredibly skilled in macro-scale engineering)
The Fallen (they cripple their weak until they prove themselves despite being crippled hinders their ability to do that)

[ruby pivot]

yo isnt it asher mir is dead dead during vexcalibur since he got his data assimilated by the vex network ?

i forgot

[inner drift]

The vex aren’t necessarily simple minded they’re just hive minded because it’s efficient

[empty fern]

Ye

[inner drift]

Yeah he’s cooked

[eager trout]

That is, assuming that we can apply our concept of gender to the Hive.

[inner drift]

There’s a lore entry on one of the new seasonal things where Misrakks talks to Ikora about him

[ruby pivot]

i kept explaining that but my friend dont believe me that asher is dead

[chrome fog]

Afterward

[eager trout]

But their only thought is "turn everything into Vex"

[ruby pivot]

since asher's harpy is out there

[inner drift]

We can, the hive gods refer to eachother as brothers and sisters and use pronouns

So like

[chrome fog]

For your friend
#📚lore-discussion message

[inner drift]

What I’m saying is that the hive guardian gf is possible

[eager trout]

That's just basic language

I meant the biological aspect

[ruby pivot]

[inner drift]

So the vex are British

[ruby pivot]

nnnnnnyes?

[eager trout]

Maybe their incomprehensible speech is just a really thick British accent

[inner drift]

[dim minnow]

for the record, no matter what you do, they will not look like the fanart OCs

[ruby pivot]

also isnt it ashir mir also let himself be consumed since he thinks that the final shape is inevitable?

or am i wrong? after the veil reveal part thing

[inner drift]

Atheon is the Vex equivalent to Churchill

[inner drift]

[ruby pivot]

i forgot what happen fully to asher mir in vex calibur

[eager trout]

I guess

[ruby pivot]

ALSO who thought duskfield shanks are fine!?

[eager trout]

The what?

[dim minnow]

Exodus Crash got revamped

new Shank variant

suffering

[ruby pivot]

imagine duskfield exploding shanks

there is no escape

[ruby pivot]

also what dovadah said, it is real i wish i am joking but i am not

i got wombo combo by the strand psions+screebs in witness boss fight

now fallen will wombo combo me with the duskfield shanks+snipers or exploding shanks

[inner drift]

Okay so…

• Our guardian gets revived
• We go do some guardian stuff for a while including basically destroying the house of devils
• The exo stranger at the time now known as Elsie bray meets us on Venus and tells us to stop the vex from doing something
• We stop the vex from doing something in the black garden and destroy the heart of the black garden
• We also go into the Vault of Glass and kill Atheon to stop him from fucking with time stuff
• DLC drops and we kill Crota the son of Oryx
• Another DLC drops but this one doesn’t matter lore wise
• Taken king drops this does matter because we kill oryx one of the big 3 hive gods on his dreadnaught above Saturn, Oryx came to kill us for killing his son btw
• Rise of Iron comes out and despite how cool it was Siva basically doesn’t matter anymore
• Destiny 2 time baby

[ruby pivot]

wow thats the entire d1 timeline?

[inner drift]

I mean that’s most of the in game stuff off the top of my head

There’s a lot of stuff that happens before destiny 1 takes place

But yeah that’s most of the important stuff

[eager trout]

I want Venus as a playable location

[inner drift]

It used to be

It was pretty cool

[fresh zephyr]

Best planet in D1

[eager trout]

I wish there was a game where you can explore the entirety of our solar system

[ruby pivot]

wait what the i just heard bungo disabled matchmaking on the moon escalation protocol thingy

forgot what it was called

[inner drift]

Something sorrow?

Altars of sorrow

[ruby pivot]

ye that one

ima check it out

aint no way

[fresh zephyr]

Nothing on Bungie Help

[eager trout]

Why would you need matchmaking in an overworld activity?

[ruby pivot]

idk just heard it but ima check it out probably false info

[shadow crypt]

There’s gonna be people once you load in there

if there’s not just load into there again

[ruby pivot]

yup, anyway back to lore

[eager trout]

Are pineapples extinct?

[ruby pivot]

confirmed: false info spread

hmmm considering we still have apples ill assume no

[eager trout]

Apples and pineapples are not related at all

[ruby pivot]

i know, they are fruits tho

wait isnt it there is a fruit vendor during TFS intro

anyone remember what fruits he was selling?

yooo deepsight harmonizer can now stack

[trim grotto]

Thought to be
But no
A Guardian brought some to Eris, who grew them on Io for a little while

[ruby pivot]

isnt it the bray have a bunker about preserving earth plants/seeds stuff?

or am i thinking about neomuna

[empty fern]

Probably neomuna

[solid sequoia]

anyone got the salvations edge ghost and sparrow lore?

[tired lava]

Chat so can u pick ur class when u get revived by ur ghost or are u shrimply given a class

[chrome fog]

It’s more just picking a martial art

[tired lava]

so you can pick your class upon your first revival then its permanent yeah?

[chrome fog]

Different ways to utilize Light

[chrome fog]

You don’t necessarily pick it

[tired lava]

Hur

[chrome fog]

Just, however you like using the Light, that gets you assigned a class

There’s overlap too

[acoustic trail]

why didnt savathuns w||orld disappear after she died? isnt it an extension of herself?||

[tired lava]

hmm I see

[tired lava]

this chat

also why are u censoring

[chrome fog]

Felwinter, a warlock, used a shoulder charge; Shaw Han has a Golden Gun that gives radiance when shot into the ground

[acoustic trail]

cause spoilers

[tired lava]

i thought those dont matter no more after the first 2 weekz

[acoustic trail]

im just being considerate. i just finished the dlc, others might have not done it yet

[tired lava]

Oh yeah

[chrome fog]

It was in the process of crumbling; then she came back to life, established the Wellspring, and maintained it with a steady supply of Light harvested from Guardians a la crystals of Guardian Light

[chrome fog]

In fairness it has been more than 2 years since the expansion’s release

[dim minnow]

the Ghost shell hit me in the feels

[acoustic trail]

but after her final death

at the end of the witch queen

[chrome fog]

She hasn’t yet

[acoustic trail]

💀

[chrome fog]

That wasn’t a final death

And again

The Wellspring

[acoustic trail]

cause her ghost is alive?

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[acoustic trail]

but wouldnt that lose power after she's gone?

[chrome fog]

You don’t crush Immaru

[chrome fog]

It’s not maintained by her will, it’s being maintained by a supply of Light

[acoustic trail]

oh

and if that realm is basically her mind like she can do whatever she wants, why didnt she just kicked the witness and the guardians out?

[chrome fog]

One of the Battlegrounds from that first season of WQ explores this a bit, you crash a Light harvesting operation

[chrome fog]

She was going to, but we killed her before she could complete the ritual to lock up the Traveler in her Throneworld

[acoustic trail]

ah i see

thanks

[chrome fog]

And aside from that, having active combatants for her brood to combat would still prove good training, even if her forces get continually eradicated

For example, there are two Lightbearer Hive who are in continuous battle with each other and declare the Sword Logic or some shit as they kill each other before they revive again, as one of her experiments to see if they could generate tithe via sword logic even with their independence from any worm

[acoustic trail]

tithe?

[chrome fog]

The Wellspring activity in her Throneworld should explain more about how it stays up even when she was dead

[chrome fog]

Aspect of Sword Logic, it’s the Ascendent Power/Energy worm leaves for a Hive to hold after it’s done feasting on the death they bring about, allows them to grow more powerful

[acoustic trail]

so like an infinite XP glitch

[chrome fog]

It is also a transferable energy, as the tithe chain of Oryx and Crota demonstrate

[chrome fog]

It would be if a worm’s hunger didn’t scale with how much it fed

There is an inevitable point where a worm’s hunger will outpace a Hive’s ability to feed it, something even the Hive Gods were cautious of

Thus they developed the Tithe system, in which they promise not to outright kill weaker Hive so long as they tithe some of their power up the chain

With the Hive Gods being the very end of the chain

[acoustic trail]

what happens if the hunger becomes too big?

[chrome fog]

Or whomever the head of a brood is, there have been maybe two or three who have split off from the main armies of each of the big three

[chrome fog]

Worm eat you

[acoustic trail]

so even if the gods kill too much, they could just get killed from the inside if they kill in excess?

[chrome fog]

Lemme find that description of how Savathun felt when he worm became overly hungry

[acoustic trail]

is there a reason eris morn looks like savathun?

she's in every dlc but i really dont know who she is or where she came from

[chrome fog]

Descriptor of how it’s like having an overly hungry worm
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vii-ripe#book-beneath-the-endless-night

[chrome fog]

So couple things:
There was a historical event called the Great Disaster, in which thousands upon thousands of Guardians charged to defeat and kill Crota. As Crota had made it so nothing could kill him while he was in his Throneworld, all of those Guardians died. It’s why we don’t really send large armies of guardians out.
In response and to avenge her lover’s death, Eriana-3 put together a fireteam of 6 to journey into the Hellmouth and see if they could strike against any potential weak points that they missed. Eris was part of this fireteam.
Basically everyone died. The only survivors were Toland - who was a Hive fanatic who had willingly allowed himself to get killed by the Deathsong because he was that obsessed with the Hive and their culture - Omar Agah, who had his “Light peeled away from him” but apparently survived as the lil bug dude that powers the Xenophage exotic, and Eris, with her Ghost dead.
Eris also had an Ahamkara bone on her, which whilst not as potent as a live Ahamkara, could still grant wishes. She wished for a way out. Her eyes went away. She then took the eyes of an acolyte and jammed them into her face. She got out.

She’s been pretty important since D1, her knowledge of the Hive being fairly vital to our victories over Crota and Oryx

[willow dagger]

Is there lore behind Mara’s star cats?

Are they mystical like star horse?!

[chrome fog]

Just kots

[iron mortar]

she did kinda dip out the story for 4 years after taken king

but now has come back to stay hopefully

(warmind being a hive expansion with worm god but no eris was crazy)

[ruby pivot]

ngl when i saw the poster of echoes i thought i was suddenly watching warframe

because of that void aura thingy that they use the most in some poster

anyway moving on

hearing failsafe about her lonesome is just sad man

most especially when she said "i thought we had beef" and she seems ready to brawl against us if we do have beef with her

[dim minnow]

she deserved better

give her a frame that she can pilot

[acoustic trail]

whats the green ball eris is holding?

[dim minnow]

Ahamkara bone

[sick yew]

@dim minnow whats your guess on who the Echo is

Heard some people speculate that it could be Maya

[dim minnow]

Echoes are the name given to the objects created in the waek of the Witness' destruction

but when referring to the Vex thingy that we seen in Echoes posters and trailer, it very much could be Maya Sundaresh

and not a simulated copy, but the real one

seeing as how item lore tabs from the season pass indicate she survived

[sick yew]

Yeah idk I just call that thing an Echo cause we dont have a name for it yet

[sick yew]

mhhm

Watch it be Asher

Id find that funny

[dim minnow]

pretty sure Asher is done for

[sick yew]

I know hes dead

Yeah Mithrax said as much in Avalon

[dim minnow]

the Vex had to compile their op into pure data and unspool him

[sick yew]

If they explain his return with "hes too annoyed to die" I would buy it

[dim minnow]

Asher returning from the Vex Network be like:
Whether we wanted it or not, this shit still ain't nothing to me man

[sick yew]

Hed probably laugh at Zavala now

Cause hes ghostless

[empty fern]

Voovoozela

[broken relic]

Asher comes back with all Vex and one regular arm

[sick yew]

Welllll

Converted t o Vex
One regular arm (you cant see the other one)

Gotta be asher ong fr fr

[fast tapir]

hmm

yeah thats asher surely

[gleaming hinge]

😭

[empty fern]

Xur canon

[sick yew]

Wait from whos perspective is that first one

[gleaming hinge]

Failsafe

[sick yew]

Aww

[sharp osprey]

individualized vex potentially? hmmm

[broken relic]

Please let me cuddle up to Failsafe’s face and tell her about my day I’d do anything

[sharp osprey]

failsafe overrated

[broken relic]

All beings under the travelers light deserve love

[gleaming hinge]

Luzaku ❤️

[broken relic]

Especially Luzaku

[sick yew]

"face"

[sick yew]

[sharp osprey]

the bit gets old really fast

[sick yew]

What bit? The one of you being wrong?

[sharp osprey]

me when the wacky robot changes her voice for the 18637563927th time

[sick yew]

Great personality
Great concept
Neat design

Sick voice

Whats there not to love about her

[sharp osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/disagree-gif-20522528

[broken relic]

I was going to say core but it sounded a bit weirder than what I was going for

[sharp osprey]

i am dreading the day they inevitably give failsafe an exo frame causing the destiny fanbase to turn unwise

[broken relic]

D2Y1 was like 7 years ago, let it go

[sharp osprey]

fair

[broken relic]

We’re already unwise

[sharp osprey]

also fair

[modern lodge]

Absolutely we need this, she needs a good hug

[sick yew]

Please bungie take all of Crows happieness and give it to Failsafe

[gleaming hinge]

This ^

[broken relic]

I agree

[sharp osprey]

does this mean transfer the happiness away from crow, cuz if so then no

[broken relic]

That happiness is going away anyways now that he has to deal with like 5 years of built up Hunter Vanguard paperwork, might as well channel it somewhere

[gleaming hinge]

Beat me to it

[sick yew]

It does
Honestly ive outgrown my distaste for Crow but I couldnt think of another character that keeps taking Ws

[sharp osprey]

final shape made me appreciate crow a lot more

[broken relic]

I really didn’t like Crow when I played a couple years back but I think he’s in a decent place now

[sick yew]

Even before he had grown to be quite the solid character

[fresh zephyr]

Honestly, Crow was okay outside of Chosen and Risen. The whole 'Okay, Boomer' meme they had going on between him and Saladin in Chosen was annoying as hell, and Risen speaks for itself I think.

[safe galleon]

so are the vex beginning to gain individuality via the echo that's influencing the nessus division?

[sick yew]

I actually liked him in Chosen

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/zavala-ghost-gif-27349318

Chosen mentioned

My heart can’t take it

[sick yew]

Best season

[empty fern]

Ikr

[sick yew]

Caiatl is one of my favorite additions to the cast ever

[fresh zephyr]

Biggest issue I have with him in that season was pretty simple. Since D1 and before, the City's strategy when dealing with a new threat was to send in a fireteam and assassinate the leadership. Saladin wanted to basically follow standard protocol, but he was constantly mocked and called an extremist by Crow the entire time because he wanted to take care of a threat to the system.

Logically, we should've just went in and killed Caiatl when she showed up, especially when she started parking her fleets over our planets and particularly Earth.

And our reasoning for not doing so was basically paperthin. 'Oh, the Black Fleet is here, we can't afford a war with the Cabal!'. Except they'd already started a war and we had no reason to think it could end peacefully short of surrendering to her like she wanted.

[broken relic]

Him le epically pwning Saladin over the Red War and the lore writers having to backtrack offscreen as Saladin just letting him off easy was annoying

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, basically.

[sick yew]

I mean lets be real Caiatl didnt really want a war with the Guardians she did something we never really had before which was a negotiation
Obviously someone like Saladin who has known nothing but war for basically ever would go against such stuff and instead use the traditional method of shoot and ask questions later

[fresh zephyr]

Her 'negotiation' was basically just asking for our surrender so she could use us a canon fodder against the Hive and the Black Fleet. And when we refused it, she outright declared war on us.

[sick yew]

She still proved that unlike previous Cabal one could reason with her

So we tried to do the oppsite and get her on our side

Which worked

[fast tapir]

the titan with the rocket launcher 😭

poor lil guy

just wanted a friend

[sick yew]

Basically all of the Beyond Light year consisted of us gathering new allies

Chosen and Splicer being the best examples

[broken relic]

I liked Splicer too

[fresh zephyr]

She showed she wasn't stupid. That's a hell of a lot different than showing she was capable of coming to actual terms with us. And that became more and more unlikely as the season progressed and she kept parking her fleets over more and more planets until she had her fleets over Earth. Trying for peace in the face of constant aggression was just dumb since we had no reason to think she'd actually stop, because what we were doing wasn't working.

And yeah, I know. Personally, that entire plot was forced as hell.

Splicer and it's 'Both Sides' approach to the conflict with the Fallen was a good example.

Okay that's just kinda nightmare fuel

I like it's final model, but some of these concept arts for the Witness' final form are creepy as hell and would've been pretty fitting

[jagged badge]

The negotiation was more of a front so that the Cabal would accept the alliance no?

As in, she knew we’d probably refuse and then we’d end up settling it on the battlefield. And at that point, either we win and an alliance happens on our terms, which is acceptable to her, or she wins and we serve her directly, which also works for her

And in both cases, the Cabal as a whole accept the ordeal

[sick yew]

My personal headcannon is still that the whole thing was just a misunderstanding language/culture barrier between Caiatl and Zavala
She never intended the disrespect and Zavala overreacted

[fresh zephyr]

Yes, that's true. Caiatl wanted an actual alliance but she knew her people wouldn't accept it. But the problem is Zavala and Co. didn't know any of that.

They had no reason to think she was interested in an alliance that didn't involve us becoming the new Psions

If she had slipped us some intel discreetly to that effect, I would've been fine with how things played out

[sick yew]

I still dont get why Zavala thought it was a good idea to bring Osiris along

One stray bullet and bro would have been toast

[fresh zephyr]

I think that kind of goes back to Vanilla D2 where everyone but us was Lightless and Zavala kind of got it shoved in his face that the Lightless could do things too

[trim grotto]

If Cabal are anything, they're honourable. Royalty are, anyway. It wasn't entirely unreasonable.

[fresh zephyr]

So if Osiris wanted to put himself in danger for the sake of the City, why not let him.

[trim grotto]

Of course it wasn't actually Osiris at the time

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed

[trim grotto]

Stray bullet hits Osiris
Savathûn's voice cries out
"Son of a bitch!"

[fresh zephyr]

Honestly, I still don't get what the hell was going on there. I thought for sure when we got that opening scene in Lost where the reveal happened that Osiris was dead as hell given all the ripping and tearing sounds that were going on when she popped out of his body.

[jagged badge]

At that point I believe Osiris was elsewhere and Savathûn was just affecting his appearance somehow, rather than directly being in his body

[trim grotto]

As far as we can tell, she took his form, but hid his person. However, he was still able to see through her eyes.

It... wasn't very clear.

[fresh zephyr]

Ah. It's just weird, because Osiris talks about how he could remember things Savathun did while she was him. Which makes sense if she was wearing him as a skin suit, but less if she just had him locked up in the throne world.

Yeah

[trim grotto]

The way I see it is as follows

To perfectly take his form, she somehow merged with his mind. She took his form, took his mind, and as such they were connected the entire time until the pact was broken and she revealed herself.
This... constant ongoing ritual may also lend itself to why she was so close to starving to death, atop of her brood abandoning her.

[fresh zephyr]

Mmm makes sense. Especially with Darkness being able to manipulate the mind thing we've got now.

[trim grotto]

Yes, I agree: particularly with Deepsight being the power of Darkness we learn of in the very next expansion.

y'know this is perfect for the FAQ actually

[fresh zephyr]

FAQ?

[trim grotto]

I'm slowly writing a Destiny Lore FAQ
Which I've been putting off due to things like the new DLC and moving hemisphere and then purchasing a home and so on so forth

[fresh zephyr]

Ahhh gotcha. Pretty cool.

[trim grotto]

Trying to be as objectively correct about it as I can be: No interpretations, only hard sourced fact

[fresh zephyr]

I bet that's a fun approach to the project given how vague the lore can be at times.

[trim grotto]

There are a bunch of "Unknown" answers but sometimes that's what you need to hear

Plus in a separate category I may be inclined to answer with an interpretation or theory, provided it is well reasoned and clearly labelled as a subjective answer

[fresh zephyr]

On another note, what do you think is the 'sedimentary necrolite' mentioned in the Nacre ship lore? I've seen people arguing it's the Witness, but also others suggesting that it might be the Veil.

[trim grotto]

That rather depends on what necrolite means, which I cannot find a reasonable intepretation of.

[fresh zephyr]

It's apparently an old synonym for necronite, which is a 'foul smelling feldspar' which is a group of minerals that make up the bulk of the Earth's crust.

[trim grotto]

Well that's... unhelpful, and astoundingly specific.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, it doesn't give much of a way to narrow it down

Only thing that makes me think it might not be the Witness is the whole 'sedimentary' aspect, and how it's 'fossilized in time'. That implies a degree of immobility which suits the Veil since it just sits there. But it's hard to tell.

Since it could just mean unchangeability, which would work with the Witness too.

Either way, it's kind of amusing since it's basically calling whatever it is a stinking rock.

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that the Syzygy wasn’t a lie in the sense that Rhulk most likely would have destroyed Fundament if the krill hadn’t taken up the offer of the Worm Gods

[trim grotto]

The Fundament Leviathan outright stated the God-Wave was actually occuring. However, it was caused by the Worm Gods.

So, the Syzygy was a lie... but the Wave was not.

[fresh zephyr]

Ahh

Makes sense

[trim grotto]

This was all the way back in the Books of Sorrow themselves, too

[fresh zephyr]

I’m finally catching up on lore related to the witness/rhulk and it’s interesting how it ties into the books of sorrow

Where did it say the worm gods lied about the god wave

[trim grotto]

—The krill lost. The Ammonite ravaged.++
++Our Traveler’s work undone.—

—Sisters of Aurash, open your eyes++
++Who made you monsters? Who summoned the wave?—
—Make peace. Join with me in golden renewal.++

In counterargument, Auryx, we ask you this: what has the Leviathan done for your people? Who gave you immortality and led you out of your prison? Who answers your questions about the universe with truth, instead of sermons?```

"You were turned into monsters by the Worm Gods who summoned the Wave!"

"uuh in rebuttal let's change the subject completely"

[fresh zephyr]

Ahh that’s an easy to miss line

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xviii-leviathan-rises

It's very funny honestly

[fresh zephyr]

I loved witch queen for that ending

Very satisfying to see the hive god of lies realized she’s been lied to her whole life

So, given that and the line Savathun has in the memories of the Pale Heart where she talks to the Witness and all but accuses it of causing the God Wave

But it’s also sort of contradictory because savathun was ALWAYS suspicious of the worm gods

Would it be fair to say that the thing that really threw Savathun off-balance at the end of WQ was the fact that the Traveler had actually chosen her people first?

Could be

[trim grotto]

Half so. More, I think, that the siblings; particularly Savathûn, doomed themselves and their entire species to endless slaughter and omnicide because they thought the Traveler would bring the endtimes.

[fresh zephyr]

Savathun has a whole convo with Oryx where she proposes that the sword logic was a great lie to trap them

[trim grotto]

Imagine learning this eons later, that the cause of untold woe and personal suffering was entirely... on... you.

[fresh zephyr]

And oryx is like “who cares?”

[fresh zephyr]

How do you do the thing where you quote lore transcripts

[trim grotto]

This?

[fresh zephyr]

Well yeah

[trim grotto]

Three of ` either side

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, but she already seemingly knew it wasn't the Traveler that caused the Wave. So that wasn't new information for her.

I thought you were pulling the quotes from a command or something

[trim grotto]

You can also use one either side to do this instead

[fresh zephyr]

cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2u9bh1eMPw

6:38 is what I'm talking about, for reference.

[trim grotto]

damn you and your up to date knowledge

I haven't found these yet

[fast tapir]

wait what

[fresh zephyr]

Ahh

[fast tapir]

oh wait those are after the campaign right

[fresh zephyr]

You can find them during the campaign, too

Though I think most people missed them, since they are easy to skip

“I don’t have a strict proof yet, you know.” Savathûn strokes the void with one long claw and space-time groans beneath her touch. “This thing we believe — that we’re liberating the universe by devouring it, that we’re cutting out the rot, that we’re on course to join the final shape — I haven’t found a strict, eternal proof. We might yet be wrong.”

Pretty interesting

[trim grotto]

I'm... not sure if I agree that this is what she meant by that, but I see what you're getting at.

[fresh zephyr]

`But he says, “Sister, it’s us. We’re the proof, we the Hive: if we last forever, we prove it, and if something more ruthless conquers us, then the proof is sealed.”

She looks back at him with eyes like hot needles. “I like that,” she says. “That’s elegant.” Although of course she has had this thought before.`

The fact the final shape is directly referenced in some of the earliest Destiny lore is pretty amazing foreshadowing

[fresh zephyr]

The way we’ve gradually been forming alliances with the enemy races is genuinely one of my favorite parts of the lore, which is why I loved season of the splicer

But it also does make me feel morally questionable each time I kill an Eliksni or a Cabal. I’m like Jesus Christ this person is just a misguided and manipulated sentient being

But I would love sentient vex that join the city

[slim elk]

Seems less like sentience and more someone's straight up controlling them

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/veiled-threat

[fresh zephyr]

I don’t think so, the lore that the OP quoted talks about finding vex waving to guardians or laughing

That excerpt is mostly saint speculating

[slim elk]

Lore I posted indicates the collars all tether them to something

[fresh zephyr]

Maybe it’s more like one consciousness is developing for all vex?

[slim elk]

And we saw that scene in the trailer where Saints clearly resisting when a collars on him

[fresh zephyr]

True

I just think the language the lore has been using has been intended to humanize the vex to some degree

Early on somebody said something along the lines of “the vex are usual cold and methodical, but this feels like they’re just… trying things out”

[slim elk]

Part of it is also stuff like Yokes and all that.

Between all of what's going on.. it seems that whoever controlling the Vex is indeed trying things out

[fresh zephyr]

What is yokes

Jokes?

[slim elk]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoke

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ii-isolated-incidents

[fresh zephyr]

Why would this evil figure controlling vex make them build sand castles

[slim elk]

Bungie isn't flat out saying it..
But it looks like someone's managed to figure out how to enslave the Vex and is using them as proxies

[slim elk]

And that's the trick
Who says they will be evil at the end of this?

[fresh zephyr]

Not to mention the fact that the Valence isn’t the embodiment of a specific person, it’s the result of primordial forces combining and leaving an echo

I suppose it could be the echo of a person

[slim elk]

Maya or Esi probably

[fresh zephyr]

If that was the case, why would they be attempting to kill guardians

If you look at the lore tabs for the Season Pass items

||They pretty much confirm we're dealing with Maya. And implies that it's the Maya from Neomuna who did her experiments with the Veil. ||

Vague story spoilers for later on if you haven't read those yet, so I figured I'd mark it.

What motivation would Maya have to fight the vanguard

I mean, Maya wasn't exactly a stable person after she found the Veil.

Hmm

But going by the lore for the season pass ship

[slim elk]

I see it as combination of her trying to figure out WTF is going on initially and the typical guardian behavior of killing.... everything

Then she will probably end up going mad with power... again

[fresh zephyr]

I’m just curious how she came about from the Valence in that case

[slim elk]

Yeah
We know what happened to the OG Maya and Lakshmi-2

[fresh zephyr]

||She wants to rebuild the Golden Age using the Vex. Only, she thinks most humans aren't needed for that endeavor, and she is attempting to learn how to do whatever she's doing to the Vex to 'larger minds'. ||

Technically, we don't actually know what happened to OG Maya.

Just that she did something with the Veil that killed her body

But that's not necessarily a game over given what it can do.

[slim elk]

||Yeah, I think that's why she would remain an antagonist in the end of this story. I fully suspect she'll offer the player guardian a position.. probably how she trys to snag Saint from the trailer||

||If Maya would view anyone as a potential ally. Would be the Guardian who killed the Witness||

[fresh zephyr]

||Could be. But it also makes sense of why she'd be killing Guardians. If she actually plans on enslaving the bulk of the human population using whatever she's doing, killing off the people most likely to oppose her makes sense. ||

[sick yew]

Spoiler tags huh

[fresh zephyr]

It involves story stuff that the actual narrative hasn't gotten to yet but are in the item descriptions you can look at in the season pass and in collections.

Figured I'd spoiler tag just in case people didn't want to see it

[slim elk]

||She'll probably try to enslave them first. Ergo Saints collar||

[sick yew]

You dont technically need spoiler tags for it but be fine

[fierce hemlock]

“The universe makes us all victim and perpetrator of its infinite cruelty. You, more than any, suffer both fates. Be free.”
what does this quote mean?

[trim grotto]

Life is pain and we cause more life, thus more pain. You especially. Die.

[sick yew]

Perfect

Simply perfect

Doubt there is a better way to put it

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, basically.

I also attribute that bit about the Traveler dying to the fact that they didn't know what the hell they were doing in Lightfall

Since in the TFS lore the Witness quite clearly didn't plan on 'freeing it' and was enjoying basically torturing the hell out of it.

[slim elk]

Probably thought the Traveler would break easily.

Given all the times it's ran away instead of trying to fight the Witness

[fresh zephyr]

Could be, but even then, it'd still be alive.

And then you had the whole thing where everyone was declaring that the Traveler was dead

Even though the only thing that'd changed was that it now had a portal in it

[slim elk]

In verse a lot of people have no idea what they are talking about.
Heck, in verse the Praxics are having a crisis of faith right now lol

[fresh zephyr]

True

[fast tapir]

ngl

[fresh zephyr]

But that seemed intentional on the part of the writers.

[fast tapir]

im wondering if they updated neomuna civil news for TFS

[fresh zephyr]

I think they didn't know what exactly they were gonna do with it at that point

[fast tapir]

that would be so cool

[fresh zephyr]

Oh

[slim elk]

That's part of the reason why Cayde and Crow hid the reason why Cayde revived

[fresh zephyr]

Good idea

[slim elk]

Zavala already had zero faith in the Traveler
Learning that it didn't revive Cayde may have fully pushed him into accepting the Witness offer

[slim elk]

Haven't seen any new lines and I moved around Neomuna a bit to see if collared vex were around

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, don't hear anything at the radio spot with the Pouka pool either

[fast tapir]

why bungie

it would be so cool to hear Jisu report about the defeat of The Witness

[fresh zephyr]

Few people go to Neomuna these days, so they probably thought it wasn't worth the effort

Hell, they don't even update the Tower dialogue after all this time

So I'm not surprised.

[slim elk]

Kinda says something you could probably kill the entire population in the Cloudark and nothing would change about the patrol space

[slim elk]

I've found Crow in his new outfit at Caydes old hangout

Bout only major change.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, I saw that. Ironically, he still has all his old lines still

[undone bane]

Where did the name Vex came from?

[fiery copper]

We do not know

[blazing wasp]

from us, iirc

like "fallen"

cabal, taken, and hive were not coined by us

scorn were named by the awoken i believe?

[undone bane]

I see

[fiery copper]

Wait, I thought the scorn were named after the barons?

[undone bane]

Also wait
Why did the fallen named their houses after Earth's things?

[fresh zephyr]

They didn't

It's just our translation

[fiery copper]

They all got kicked from their houses, and joined up to become the Scorned Barons.

[fresh zephyr]

So like the House of Wolves in Eliksni language probably refers to a similar creature back on Riis that we don't have a name for, so our translation of their language uses an approximation we're familiar with instead.

[blazing wasp]

wouldnt really add up considering only one of the barons were scorn.

[fiery copper]

Nah we just made shit up lol, House of Wolves was originally the Gentle Weavers on riis

[blazing wasp]

or fikrul wouldnt get so pissy about us killing them.

[fresh zephyr]

Yes, but the Houses took different names once they arrived in Sol

[fiery copper]

What lore are you getting this from

[blazing wasp]

which part

the house part?

[fiery copper]

Yes

[fiery copper]

Only fikrul was a zombie, but the group was 100% called the Scorned Barons.

[fiery copper]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lord-of-wolves

[blazing wasp]

ye

but i guess it

yeah no i guess it kinda makes sense actually

[fiery copper]

"Why Eliksni accept name 'Fallen'? Why Wolves accept name 'Wolves'? Why Misraaks is now," he grimaces as he mimes their accents, showing his serrated teeth, "Miff-racks?"

"Why speak Guardian way instead Eliksni? Docked things do not word themselves."

"House of Wolves, they been Mraskilaasan. Gentle weavers."

[sick yew]

I miss Mithrax's fireteam so much

Those unnamed guardians

They were great

[fresh zephyr]

Guess I was wrong. Didn't realize they had ever actually clarified that. Was just going off deduction since they obviously didn't call themselves 'Weavers' or 'Dancers' anymore.

[paper gorge]

||are we literally climbing up the witness during salvation edge?||

[wheat flower]

No

[paper gorge]

Oh ok

[fiery copper]

yessss

[fiery copper]

some guy on youtube whose username rhymes with Fly Game Wiz Knife seems to think so, personally i havent done the raid so i cant weigh in.

[chrome fog]

That is a hilarious way to say his name

[sick yew]

🤝

[fiery copper]

i mean, that's how bri'sh people pronounce mithrax

[paper gorge]

How many disciples did the witness have

[hallow fulcrum]

What is the diffrence between powers of the light and powers of darkness

[rigid terrace]

yes and no

[rigid terrace]

Someone in reddit managed to rip witness model on raid and here it is how it looks

[paper gorge]

Is there any interesting lore tid bits in the SE raid

[sleek matrix]

Yea

Raids usually have good lore

[stark fjord]

The forehead

If we use solar to melt stasis can we make dark water

[pine lion]

I have a question, I was so interested in the Dark Statue inside the Deep Stone Crypt Raid and I knew it was a big think somehow but why does Clovis Bray have that statue of “Respite” /witness in his crypt?

Was he trying to harness it?

[lofty badge]

yeah and he kinda did

he used it to make exos

by also using vex mind fluid

[pine lion]

Also one other thing, I enjoyed how the Final Shape has been a poster in the tower years before Lightfall and the Final Shape

[lofty badge]

oh?

[pine lion]

The poster of the traveler with the triangle cut into it, below it with directions to different spots in the tower

Such as the bazaar

[jagged badge]

I don’t think that was intended to tease Final Shape. Pretty sure that’s been around since D1

[pine lion]

But imo I wanna say it also did because the traveler kinda has a triangle in it

But also not, because they wouldn’t just do that right?

I mean they did play the waiting game to reveal the final wish from LW while everyone was searching for it

[jagged badge]

They absolutely did not plan Final Shape as far back as D1

[pine lion]

Im definitely not a lorekeeper, so If im completely off, please tell me

[pine lion]

Wait no not the tower in D1, the tower in D2

[jagged badge]

I know. I’m saying that that symbol/logo has been around longer

[lofty badge]

what exact symbol? if there is a ingame screenshot

[pine lion]

Theres a hanged banner/poster on corners of the Tower right now with the image of the traveler with the triangle inside of it, just like how it looks like the traveler now, with the triangle cut inside it by the traveler

I cant hop on rn

To get a image

[lofty badge]

huh

never noticed it

[jagged badge]

It’s just a print on the wall itself I’m pretty sure

[pine lion]

And these hanged banners have directional arrows to the different locations of the tower

[pine lion]

I just wish I could get another look at it and grab a photo

[pine lion]

That

And you can find more around the tower

[jagged badge]

For the record, D1 screenshot

[gentle geyser]

Tower watch been real quiet since lightfall

[oblique gale]

I noticed that a while ago too

[gentle geyser]

[pine lion]

How can that not be even a minor teaser for lightfall/final shape

[gentle geyser]

Because thats over 5 years ago

Actually no 7

Hell probably there since d1 launch

[pine lion]

Yah, its been there for a long long time

[gentle geyser]

They 100% did not have the light and dark saga planned out by then

[pine lion]

I do agree with this statement because i dont think the dev team knew or not if Destiny was going to flop

So why would they put that much effort in a entire saga if it was going to flop or not get enough support for a D2

[gentle geyser]

No, they just simply didn’t have the story planned that far

Not everything is the mcu

[pine lion]

Sorry, thats kinda what I was thinking

Mcu mentality

[jagged badge]

What?

[devout nimbus]

Which version of him is this now

The 6th?

[pine lion]

I apologize cuz it sounds pretty dumb

[oblique gale]

has anyone translated any of the Dread yet?

[gentle geyser]

I think everyone just forgor

[dim minnow]

6th I think

[devout nimbus]

Damn

[oblique gale]

man

I've been patiently waiting this whole time

[jagged badge]

No but a server I’m on is working on it as best as it can

There’s not a lot to go off atm

[oblique gale]

hm

[lofty badge]

is it just the Tormentors and Subjicators who are the leaders of the dread now?

[chrome fog]

Innocuous details can be recontextualized after their inclusion but is not totally indicative of pre-planning at the time the detail was added

[thorn osprey]

I don’t think they had everything planned out, but there were some things from the Destiny 1 concept art that made it as far as The Final Shape.

Also I just finished TFS and shots all around to the devs. That was the best expansion since the Taken King.

[slim elk]

Bungie has a habit of leaving "seeds" they can expand out later

Nezarec is a big example, was randomly named dropped in some exotics from the Red War

[analog torrent]

like aphelions
Aphelions when bungle

[eager trout]

Is Atheon at the front or the back of the room?

[slim elk]

Winnower is probably going to be another example

[chrome fog]

It’s a circle and a triangle. It’s not really anything big but it’s also easy to make it something important later on. But like we keep saying, it’s just a coincidental detail, nothing more

Like it’s just a circle and triangle

Cmon

[slim elk]

I didn't say anything on that lol
I was referring to the D1 concept art

[chrome fog]

[slim elk]

See the post I literally quoted

[chrome fog]

[slim elk]

The Pyramids fill that role very well

They were seen in D1 concepts
Didn't show till Destiny 2

If you deny that fact.. what is there to say?

[chrome fog]

The initial discussion is on the symbol of a circle with a triangle in it being a hint towards the portal on the Traveler.

To which

[ember storm]

nobody ever seems to consider it’s literally a sign

[chrome fog]

It’s a fucking circle and triangle

[ember storm]

that’s an arrow

it’s meant to be an arrow

[thorn osprey]

I look at these and I see Darkness ships and the figure to the left looks similar to what we see in TFS.

[ember storm]

“Tower watch up ahead”

it’s pointing

[safe galleon]

i think it's just that they saw the circle and triangle iconography present in the tower, saw that the light was associated with the traveler and that triangles became associated with darkness via the pyramids, went 'oh neat' and then promptly made the portal's shape a triangle, because it could have been literally any shape

[chrome fog]

There’s also the association of complexity with the Light and simplicity with the Darkness

Circle being the most complex simple shape and Triangle being the simplest

[thorn osprey]

I like this

[chrome fog]

Which is kinda profound in the right presentation but also it’s literally just a circle and triangle

So again, the circles with triangles in them were not a big hint at the portal

[slim elk]

Pretty much
Bungies got a habit of similar teases
That sign is just an example of it being a big coincidence

[safe galleon]

i do not think they were a hint at all

[thorn osprey]

Let’s discuss the future

What’s next?

[slim elk]

I'm betting the Winnower will make its presence known in Heresy

[chrome fog]

I bet no, it’ll be a couple years before the Winnower pops up

Maybe a hint but it’ll be more than a year until the Winnower gets touched upon if at all

[slim elk]

Something screwy is going on with the Dreadnought from the info we have

[slim elk]

Have you seen the ship lore?

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/nacre

[thorn osprey]

I didn’t fully understand all the stuff with The Witch Queen, is she with us, against us, or testing us?

[safe galleon]

i really do hope the winnower errs more on the side of 'cosmic horror' moreso than the witness did

[chrome fog]

Yes

[gentle geyser]

Shes a troll

[safe galleon]

she's setting the board for herself the best she can. that means helping us in some ways and going against us in others. she knows she has a lot of wiggle room since we don't want to escalate with her right now

[gentle geyser]

She does a little bit of trolling

[chrome fog]

This is all we’ll get for the next couple of events

Nezarec 2.0

[thorn osprey]

I guess I was confused because it seemed she rejected the sword logic, but then was “testing” us

[chrome fog]

Which it should be

[slim elk]

That's where I think.the Winnower will show in Heresy

Bungies promising a big shake up in the Hive God dynamics...
The problem is that.. already happened

Oryx is dead
Savathun turned to the Light
And Xivus mortal

[thorn osprey]

Can we talk a moment about that friendly hive wizard

[slim elk]

Hard to shake that up more unless something new shows

[thorn osprey]

I think that was the idea, the hive have no real leadership right now

[chrome fog]

Boooooo longer time until they pop up

[slim elk]

Why the doubts?
Heresy does look like it'll set up whatever Frontiers will be

If I recall right, you doubted the Winnower actually existed before?

[chrome fog]

It’ll barely be a year by that time, and I’m sick and tired of people wanting constant escalating stakes

Make the next expansion just helping our buddies out

Fuck the Winnower, just

[safe galleon]

do you have actual rationale as to why the winnower wouldn't show up at any point in the neae future besides 'nuh uh i don't like it'

[thorn osprey]

Let’s cleanup the system ya known

[chrome fog]

Shut up, I don’t care about you trying to do another Witner

[thorn osprey]

We gotta find homes for the fallen and the cabal

[chrome fog]

The last attempt to make a witner might have resulted in Echoes’ big bad

Just, the pacing would be shit if the Winnower were to be reared up any time soon

[safe galleon]

because i mean, the way that the nacre entry played out, it seems like they're at least going to reveal it as a 'player' in the narrative sometime soon

[thorn osprey]

I honestly thought we where done with the winnower

[safe galleon]

would it though, or would it just be a narrative decision you wouldn't personally respect? there's a difference

[thorn osprey]

Like light and dark saga is over, right?

[chrome fog]

I think a bit of deescalation would be prudent

Again, a constant scaling of threat gets annoying

To which I think we hit a good peak here with the Witness

Existence is now saved. Please don’t make me save it again immediately after

[slim elk]

Can't really call the Winnower an antagonist right now either.
All the hostile actions attributed to it were apparently from the Witness.

And we are wielding the darkness full time now.

[gentle geyser]

I honestly don’t think the winnower if it exists, should appear in d2

It just shouldn’t

[chrome fog]

I think it could work

But again

Some buffer between now and when we have to tackle the Winnower

The risk of constant escalation is the audience wondering why smaller conflicts in between - such as seasonal and episodic narratives - are necessary

Which like

They’re smaller conflicts but still important for us to handle

[gentle geyser]

We do just need small scale threats for a couple years, nothing world ending

[chrome fog]

Someone came in here with that exact complaint and it took forever to convince them that we didn’t need to be constantly slaying gods, sometimes a Guardian just wants to eradicate small terror cells of antagonistic factions

[gentle geyser]

Reminder that guardians can be killed by mortals, small scale threats are still threats

[chrome fog]

That’s another annoyance, people complaining about how Guardians die when we’re godkillers, not realizing a majority of our history has had regular Guardian deaths

[gentle geyser]

We are 100% the exception, the reason we also are considered godkillers, is the “gods” we kill aren’t actually gods

[safe galleon]

imo it would be kind of weird if the winnower just idly let things play out in the wake of all this. we're in probably the most chaotic state we've ever been in collectively (going around chasing echoes, worrying about all sorts of different threats the witness left behind as well as a gargantuan power vacuum, trying protect the pale heart). if some kind of cosmic entity were going to try and exert its influence, it wouldn't be years down the line. you seem to characterize introducing the winnower into the story as something that's gonna immediately make it an active front-and-center participant that commands the narrative like the witness did in lightfall and tfs, but that's very obviously not the case and we know this because the witness had years of build up before it even had an in-game appearance

[chrome fog]

I mean from the language of the Nacre ship it’s pretty nonchalant about our victory and is just going about its business

To which, it will be likely that it isn’t going to be making any major moves anytime soon; it’s more likely it will be influencing other alien societies gradually and slowly in the future

[safe galleon]

i imagine the winnower would be similar. as in, it's going to have some kind of influence and some stake in what's going on in the story at large, but the next expansion is not going to be Final Shape 2: End of an Era after only 3 arcs of buildup

narratives need through-lines. the echoes are decent enough to serve as that for now, but doing intergalactic chores with no real connection besides "this was all caused by the traveler spitting out that debris after we killed the witness" is going to get old unless there's the promise of it meaning something concrete

[chrome fog]

To the latter point of this paragraph, there was the shit during the Lightfall seasons wherein people kept asking why we hadn’t gone into the portal and chased after the Witness immediately, to which we would have to constantly remind them that we were trying to find an actual way to reach the Witness and do exactly that. To draw out the conflict against the Winnower through small hints and nods to its actions behind the scenes is gonna have more players asking the same “Why aren’t we doing anything about the Winnower rn?” and again be reminded that yes we’re fucking getting on getting the Winnower it’s just more complicated than taking some guns and taking down a rowdy crowd of House Dusk Eliksni

At least the intergalactic chores were something we’ve been needing to deal with post-FS and address conflicts people were asking about

[slim elk]

I blame those sorts of reactions on how poor the Lightfall writing was.

Most of the exposition on that came from random patrol dialogue in Neomuna Civil News broadcasts

Rather easily missed

[tropic swift]

I feel like if the heroes of Neomuna didn't try to go solo, then they'd be alive

[jagged badge]

What?

[slim elk]

As for the Winnower
I do think it'll finally blatantly make its presence known in Heresy but won't be active for a while

Probably openly communicate in the story rather then be relegated to lore tabs

[chrome fog]

I put it on the player base not taking steps to inform themselves on the current events of the narrative

Because Deep opens on what happens if we were to attempt to go into the Portal

So like no shit we need to find a better way into the Pale Heart

[slim elk]

That was an entire season later though. Months real time.

That and it was amid a huge chunk of stuff just simply not explained at all.
Lightfall's story was a complete mess.

[chrome fog]

The time not know we couldn’t go into the Portal without dying was much less than the time we have had with the Deep cutscene

[slim elk]

And again
Most of the exposition we did have at the time came from random dialogue during patrol that could be easily missed

[tropic swift]

they all died in battle fighting the cabal

[slim elk]

Can't blame the players being distracted with events going on in patrol and a random broadcast with info showed

[tropic swift]

If they were so powerful as claimed, then the only way they died is from going to fight them solo

[chrome fog]

And going to the reaction to Lightfall, a majority of the outcry was the content creators exaggerating the state of the narrative. It was ok, not great, but it didn’t deserve being fucked over

[jagged badge]

That is not true at all, I have no idea where you got this from

[tropic swift]

playing lightfall doing the statue mission based off what I remember

[slim elk]

Little correction here
Neomuna's only defense is literally the two Cloudstriders

[jagged badge]

Neomuna has only ever had two Cloud Striders at a time, and, according to Nimbus, none have ever perished in battle, only expired due to their 10 year lifespans post-augmentations

[chrome fog]

They have other defenses such as the turrets

Stop exaggerating

[jagged badge]

The Cabal arrived on Neptune right at the start of Lightfall. Rohan is the only Cloud Strider who died fighting the Cabal…and he didn’t even die to the Cabal

[slim elk]

Name the other defensive forces then lol

[jagged badge]

He sacrificed himself to destroy the Radial Mast

[slim elk]

It's only the Cloudstriders defending the city

[jagged badge]

Not exactly

[slim elk]

Everyone else is in the Cloudark

[jagged badge]

The civilians have roles to play in the defence too

There’s many a voice line from Quinn Laghari elaborating on that

[slim elk]

Do wonder what's going to happen when Nimbus time is up

Been a year inverse already.. and Nimbus was active as a Cloudstrider before we showed up

[tropic swift]

I hate nimbus, they're tone deaf

[jagged badge]

We can at least work out an upper limit of how long ago they became a Cloud Strider

[ember storm]

So is Hawthorne

[jagged badge]

It happened after Arrivals at some point

[tropic swift]

Oh I know

[slim elk]

So about 2-3 years then?

[tropic swift]

"High five" after her dad is killed by us

[slim elk]

That's a quarter of the lifespan of a Cloudstrider

[blazing wasp]

Funny, i think this is the second time we've had genuine mentions of weapon perks, but this one seems to almost explicitly state that the perk "box breathing" works the same in lore as ingame

So some guns are literally made with the ability to have more firepower if you aim down the sights enough? could literally just be a paracausality thing, given that we infuse our light in our guns

some if not all

These lore books from the season are also really damn cool with vex having a genuine "spark of life" to them

they're curious, and sometimes act like children

[jagged badge]

The part about the waving Hobgoblin

[swift spade]

Ight chat here’s my take on the lore

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-starwars-galaxy-far-gif-8033254

A man named Trav eler was strolling through his galaxy neighborhood and found these small ants named (I don’t actually remember) and they were really chill so Trav decided to hang out with the ants and they were like building stuff and they wanted to get close to Trav and they decided to sculpt a fake Trav out of grass or rocks and stuff and it was pretty cool and then they decided to bite Trav and Trav got really mad so he left, and then he met these spider people in another planet/galaxy I can’t remember and they were even more chill and they built like cities and shit around him and it was pretty cool and then a big gust of air blew away all the stuff the spiders built and Trav was really depressed so he left again and went to another galaxy and met these little people and he taught them how to build robots and that was pretty cool but then the ants returned and caused sad things to happen, also angry turtles for no apparent reason attacked Trav

End of part 1

[broken relic]

So we brought Rasputin back again and he lost and died again

[crystal zinc]

What is the winnower

[broken relic]

Someone needs to make a potential man meme for Rasputin

[crystal zinc]

I thought it was a lie made by the witness or something a while ago

Now everyone is talking about it again

[broken relic]

0 enemies of humanity defeated 0 Pyramids destroyed 7 Iron Lords permakilled

[swift spade]

So is nobody gonna rate my recap 🥺

[broken relic]

Give me liberty Give me Fire give me an Exo frame so I can be killed more easily or I retire

[versed orbit]

fraud

[safe galleon]

i mean to some extent it HAS to be paracausality. how else do we generate ammo from nothing with fttc?

[blazing wasp]

Honestly i just thought they werent canon

But this lore tab brings it into question

That it might actually be real

[chrome fog]

Need a couple more other civilizations

There’s like more than a couple that the Traveler had visited, after the Hive’s creation alone there were more than a couple centuries of chasing the Traveler down

[west cloak]

love that the winnower is just the traveler but darkness

like the winnower isn’t essentially bad, just that who has its power, chooses whether to be bad or not, much like how the traveler is with us and savathun’s brood

[graceful tide]

exept cayde and crow are there any other characters that are hunters?

[broken relic]

Micah, Eris (Formerly), Ana Bray, in terms of recently important

[shrewd nova]

if zavala has stasis does he have strand?

[graceful tide]

eris wasn't a warlock?

[shrewd nova]

Eris Morn is a former Hunter and sole survivor of the ill-fated attempt on Crota's life. She lost her Ghost, her Light and her friends to the Hive, and is eager to make them suffer as she once did. She played a major role in the death of Crota, as well as Oryx, Omnigul, and Hashladun.

Eris Morn was a human female Hunter

[graceful tide]

oh wow

that explains the edgy look huh

[shrewd nova]

wears the cloak and all

Eris is a hunter
Micah is trans

I did not know that about Micah until yesterday

[graceful tide]

what does being trans have to do with her class;-;

eris is really a surprise for me tbh

[shrewd nova]

it doesnt I just didnt know and it surprised me

[graceful tide]

oryx is trans too🤷‍♂️

[shrewd nova]

yeah I knew that

So Zavala has stasis does he has strand?

[blazing wasp]

Correct me if im wrong but dont a lot of hive change their uh

i cant say the word

they undergo significant biological changes.

i forgot the word for forgetting the words but

im a bit rusty on this but i swear i recalled that hive are initially only male or female, then change to one of them, typically for wizard vs knight

[shrewd nova]

Ogres are thralls which I think is cool just experimented on Thralls that have alot of hatred and even Oryx struggles to control when taken

[blazing wasp]

yea

[trim grotto]

No. But he could learn.

[trim grotto]

Oryx underwent the change did because he took a King Morph. Most other morphs aren't inherently gendered so they don't necessarily affect that.

[naive raptor]

Which D2 character is canonically the hottest?

[blazing wasp]

ah

[blazing wasp]

Flee.

[mental meadow]

When did saint originally go missing

[blazing wasp]

i believe not too long after he killed the devils kell

[mental meadow]

And why did he disappear?

What caused him to get lost in the infinate forest or whatever it was

[trim grotto]

He was searching for Osiris.

[mental meadow]

Didn't we exile Osiris

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[mental meadow]

And then saint, after exiling him, then went to go look for him

Surely saint would have been involved in that decision as the titan vanguard

[trim grotto]

It was a Consensus decision.

[mental meadow]

What was the reason behind it

[trim grotto]

He had functionally abandoned his job, wasn't preforming duties, wasn't showing up for meetings, wasn't quelling the riots the Cult that sprung up in his name were preforming, was spouting doomsday quotes about the Vex, was researching Darkness, so on so forth.

[mental meadow]

Was Osiris the warlock vanguard

[mental meadow]

Oh brother Vance and that lot

[trim grotto]

Well he certainly wasn't a Titan

[mental meadow]

So then did zavala and ikora fill their places once they both got lost

Or ran disappeared maybe more fitting

[trim grotto]

Yes. Ikora was an easy choice, as she was both his protoge and had already been preforming his duties in his absence. Absences.

[mental meadow]

What caused osiris to return?

And is it safe to assume saint never actually found Osiris within the infinate forest or wherever they went

[chrome fog]

We helped him stop the Vex from doing shit in Curse of Osiris, I believe

[mental meadow]

Yea ik but what made him come back in curse of Osiris?

Or had he just been on mercury that whole time

[trim grotto]

He was on Mercury that whole time.

[willow dagger]

Oh hey Mael

[mental meadow]

how did saint get lost then? just got stuck in the other timeline?

[ember storm]

he died

[mental meadow]

do we know saints grave was our timeline and not a different one

[ember storm]

Saint had no way of knowing where to go and the infinite forest is literally an infinite expanse of pathways through different vex simulations

[ember storm]

not a different timeline

he just died

[mental meadow]

then whos the saint we got now

[ember storm]

still ours

it’s not back to the future rules so just don’t think about it like that

there isn’t butterfly effect

[mental meadow]

oh he died but we went back and rescued him before he died even tho he still died

?

[ember storm]

Elsie is in a time loop, they’re not existing at the same time and jumping between them

[ember storm]

yes

[mental meadow]

ok

[ember storm]

that’s why his gun is a literal paradox

[mental meadow]

how did we manage to find him

in season of whatever

[ember storm]

we give it to him for the first time but also we only have it because we get it from his corpse

[mental meadow]

with the timedial

[mental meadow]

I thought we got it in curse of osiris

or is that when we found his grave

[ember storm]

the red legion found Osiris’ old Time Machine he wanted to use specifically to save Saint and were trying to screw with time

[ember storm]

Yes

[mental meadow]

ah I see

[ember storm]

while we were going around killing the red legion, the Sundial was already on

[mental meadow]

right ok

so osiris made the sundial to find saint, which worked

[ember storm]

so we just decided to try our hand at it

[mental meadow]

causing a lil paradox but its ok

[ember storm]

very intuitive technology I assure you

[mental meadow]

hmm yes ofcourse

shrimple really

[broken relic]

Damn a guy could get forever lost in those corridors

[ember storm]

he’d have to be a real blockhead for that to happen

[west cloak]

is there any lore reason to why failsafe to not know about fishing

or she just dumb

[fresh zephyr]

You could say they were Timelost

[empty fern]

She’s been, alone for a while

[west cloak]

she can notice a pebble being moved by vex but not when guardians fish

she’s just dumb then

[empty fern]

It be distant

[earnest girder]

is Saladin dead?

[west cloak]

why would he

[fresh zephyr]

No, he’s still alive (I haven’t seen the newest episode week so idk if that’s related to this)

[west cloak]

he was shown in the post TFS cutscene

his ass be sewing with caiatl

[earnest girder]

idk someone told me he was

[west cloak]

whoever told you lied

[void scaffold]

what are these dots next to the planets

cities?

or space stations or something

[trim grotto]

No. What is the context of this specific image?

[void scaffold]

intro cutscene of the game showing the golden age

[trim grotto]

There's a few intro cutscenes these days. Multiple for D2 alone.

[void scaffold]

the new light cutscene after it shows the traveler terraforming mars

i dont know if its in the game anymore

i havent made a new character in years

[trim grotto]

So you're talking about the original one for D2?

[void scaffold]

i think

[dim minnow]

this looks like D1 actually

[void scaffold]

do you guys remember the cutscene of the space pod landing on mars and astronauts get out and see the traveler making it rain

thats what its from

[dim minnow]

yeah, original intro

[west cloak]

[dim minnow]

must have looked very uncanny

don't blame the Titan for blowing it up

[west cloak]

titan did a hit and run with a rocket on a single red bar

hobgoblin was probably really excited to see something that doesn’t attack it on sight for once

[dim minnow]

was it really the Hobgoblin, or the person controlling it?

[west cloak]

both?