📚lore-discussion

[fresh zephyr]

But basically, yeah

[sharp osprey]

yeah, theres a lot of assumptions made in my previous message, but yeah

its a decent theory i think

[calm granite]

the whole gardener winnower should prolly still be taken with a grain of salt

while the witness did refer to winnower directly, it's likely still in large metaphorical terms

[sharp osprey]

Destiny 3's location will be the Garden ‼️ 🗣️ 🔥

[calm granite]

it using the term teaches us nothing other than the fact it abides by the same terms as unveiling, which was written by the hive so not necessarily surprising

if anything it tells us the whole mythos from unveiling was directly from the witness

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, I don't see Bungie saying all this about the Winnower when they are well aware of the debate about it in the community

[sharp osprey]

i'm just trying to build a mythology of destiny using what we have and unveiling is the most explicit thing we have, despite its inherent flaws

[fresh zephyr]

If they go back and say 'Oh, it was just made up by the Witness or it's civilization' or something along those lines after this, that realllly wouldn't go over well

[ember storm]

I think the general consensus is that the winnower is an interpretation of a real thing

[ivory sluice]

So you’re saying, it could all just be made up by the witness during its attempt to create the final shape

[ember storm]

like it’s not calling no itself winnower but

it does exist and the witness sees it that way

[sharp osprey]

its calling itself the winnower's knife

[calm granite]

not necessarily made up. it's just that unveiling itself is largely considered to be fully metaphorical

[fresh zephyr]

Oh I agree

But that doesn't mean it's not describing actual entities or events

[ember storm]

the witness is basically like if someone called themselves the second coming

[calm granite]

witness says it's the winnower's first knife, which means it just talks in the same terms, but it doesn't mean anything close to the fact the winnower is a sentient thing

[fresh zephyr]

And how accurate it's description is is up in the air for sure

[calm granite]

especially given that the witness is likely fairly unhinged

[sharp osprey]

i would strike the likely, dude(s) was very unhinged

[fresh zephyr]

Well, we do know from the CE lore that many of the minds that made it up basically lobotomized themselves to get rid of all the parts they didn't like about themselves.

But yeah, it is nuts

But this is less about 'The Witness is a sane, reliable source of information'

[sharp osprey]

final shape also tells us this

[fresh zephyr]

And more 'Bungie isn't gonna stir that pot without a reason'

[sharp osprey]

THE WINNOWER
THE WINNOWER IS REAL

deep lore of any kind makes my brain hurt

[gentle geyser]

I am become death

[calm granite]

why ?

the whole winnower/gardener thing was basically only from unveiling many years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if they kept this lore at just what it is: possible metaphorical explanations for paracausal entities far beyond our understanding

[gentle geyser]

If the winnower actually exists in the context that the witness provides, why hasn’t the winnower acted

[eager trout]

If the Traveler is the Gardener, and the Winnower is the Darkness equivalent of the Gardener, then the Winnower is most likely the Veil. And if the Traveler is sentient, the Vail is most likely sentient as well.

[gentle geyser]

we already have a darkness equal

Its called the veil

Doesn’t mean it is the winnower

[calm granite]

I don't think it's even likely/proven that the traveler actually is what you could call the gardener

sicne we barely know if that's an actual thing

[gentle geyser]

It is, but gardener is a term that more correctly comes down to unveiling

[calm granite]

considering the winnower to be real makes no sense. we're literally getting the same wording from the same entity, multiple years apart

witness isn't a second source for these terms

the whole mythology probably came from the witness in unveiling as well, what with rhulk and the duo kinda creating the hive

[gentle geyser]

The witness claiming its the first knife if anything further proves that it views itself as the solution, if the winnower exists it would have done something by now

[fresh zephyr]

Bungie is well aware about the community debate around the Winnower's existence. They have had people asking them in interviews about what's going on there for years, including during the lead up to TFS' release, and they basically told everyone to play the expansion and that questions would be answered. We then have the main bad guy literally telling us that the Winnower exists.

[sharp osprey]

honestly, bungie themselves are very explicitly referencing unveiling, i'm listening to the final shape ost and there are songs titled "The First Knife", "A Knife in the Garden", etc

[calm granite]

it's not telling us it exists

it's being as useful than unveiling, because it's exactly the same entity talking about the same thing

[sharp osprey]

if its not real in any way shape or form then it would be very strange i think

sure its not literal, but there is probably some truth to it

[fresh zephyr]

^

[calm granite]

it's not that it's real or not, it's that the witness mentioning this brings us no further to either explanation

[sharp osprey]

sure, i can see that point

the witness is known to be unreliable

but bungie is more reliable i think

and they are referencing it pretty explicitly

[calm granite]

my point is that it's even likely the witness installed these terms into the hive, and therefore into unveiling

[fresh zephyr]

Unveiling didn't come from the Hive

It came from itself

[calm granite]

bungie's playing around the same terms, but here as well it likely just refers to the witness itself

[gentle geyser]

Unveiling came directly from the witness

[calm granite]

oh yeah mb

yeah so it literally means nothing at all

the book that came from the witness and the witness using the same wording means nothing at all

just that ig it has a consistent mythos along the years

[sharp osprey]

are we sure it came from the witness? i thought it came from the big darkness ball thing

[fresh zephyr]

I mean at the end of the day, the Witness straight up says 'You call me 'Winnower'. I am not. I am merely the First Knife in it's hand'. This shows that this is something it absolutely believes to be true, rather than something it, say, cooked up to trick us.

And again, given that Bungie promised answers to those questions, taking that as not being an answer and that we're still trapped in lore limbo just doesn't seem likely

[sharp osprey]

it would be a hell of a disappointing plot twist i think if all of unveiling was revealed the be entirely bs

there HAS to be some amount of truth to it at this point, its just how the storytelling works imo

[fresh zephyr]

Hell, this exact discussion is had in the raid ship lore

[sharp osprey]

thats true actually lol

[fresh zephyr]

Where Mara and Ikora debate this subject

About whether the Witness was lying or not, and if the Winnower exists

Bungie knows exactly what they are doing

[gentle geyser]

Honestly even if the winnower is real we won’t be seeing them for a long ass time, this is the end of the light and dark saga, they wouldn’t just continue it by saying “okay now heres the REAL darkness villain”

The winnower most likely exists in a much more simplistic manner, the witness is probably just stretching the story or making it more symbolic

[calm granite]

I don't think this whole winnower/gardener exists. if anything, the witness refers to itself as the knife to one of the basic rules of the universe that at some point eveything ends, just like the gardener is that everything is created sometime

it's just gone into a mad crusade to fight against the entrophy/chaos it sees as senseless cruelty

[gentle geyser]

Even in the death of the witness it struggles to understand why people would fight back

[calm granite]

yeah cause it sees itself as a savior

[gentle geyser]

The witness simply doesn’t understand why people disagree with it

[calm granite]

that's how it's always shaped the final shape for use

[sharp osprey]

"We - I don't understand!" i love that it uses the singular pronoun in its dying breath

[calm granite]

it's not really death, it's freezing time in place so we don't have to suffer life's inevitable end and cruelty

[sharp osprey]

it shows that the true witness, the drive that wanted to create the final shape, and subjugated all of its dissentors (which by its end, might have honestly been all of the original people that comprised it), had become truly alone.

[gentle geyser]

The witness be the ultimate gaslighter, bro causing as much harm as possible and creates multiple of the enemy factions
Main goal is to stop suffering

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, we know something exists outside of the Traveler and the Veil and the entity that they were made from. Something split them up. Something made the Traveler's shell. I find it far, far more likely they will rely on their existing cosmology than invent something entirely new. But at the end of the day I think the remaining raid lore books will probably settle this one way or another.

[sharp osprey]

how many more raid lore entries are there?

are they in ishtar yet?

[fresh zephyr]

I think there are 8? in total

Only like 5 are currently avaliable

[sharp osprey]

i should read those

whats the book called?

[fresh zephyr]

Uuuh lemme find it

It's not on Ishtar yet

[sharp osprey]

rip

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1dagylv/first_lore_book/

Actually

I'll just DM it to you because there isn't one that has all of them yet

And I don't want to spam chat with links

[sharp osprey]

oh, ok

i'll probably give it a read later

um, actually someone on r/destinylore posted the full lore book a few hours ago

is that a leak or real?

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah I just saw that

Those look like the books I've seen before though

Supposedly there were three others

But I'm not sure

Okay, some of these I haven't seen before

[sharp osprey]

my head is spinning lol

[fresh zephyr]

This shit is cool as hell

[sharp osprey]

i am too tired to read deep lore rn

[fresh zephyr]

Damn

All I gotta say is that the Precursors were messed up

I need lore help

Are the Vex trying to force merge Venus with Nessus

No idea where anyone got that idea

But not as far as I know

The new activity

It feels like Venus's colour pallette

I've done all the story quests that are unlocked. The Vex are changing, and adapting Nessus with it, but I've heard nothing about 'merging it' with Venus.

They could be making it look like Venus for whatever reason, probably something to do with Maya since the Vex have the Ishtar logo around their necks and she's in a bunch of the lore tabs for the season, but that's about the extent of it from what we've been told so far.

[ivory sluice]

Wait so fill me in, why did oryx kill his sisters the first time?

[ember storm]

They killed him first

He tried to be an actual king for once and tried making peace with one of the other fundament races, to which his sisters responded by killing him

None of them were aware of throne worlds at the time so it was just legitimate murder, but that incident is what taught them about it

[ivory sluice]

Oh I missed that part in the video

[ember storm]

I think sequentially the first time he killed them was when the realization of sword logic’s limitations dawned on them and he decided to go and kill Akka

knowing about throne worlds, the three agreed to have oryx kill Savathun and Xivu to get a needed power boost

[ivory sluice]

Akka was one of their worm gods right?

[ember storm]

one of them

I think it was the one oryx was more personally aligned with

[ivory sluice]

And why did akka have to die?

[ember storm]

the way things were going was unsustainable

it was out of necessity and also a realization that they basically got conned

[ivory sluice]

So what came out of killing akka?

[ember storm]

Oryx forced Akka into a confrontation and it ended with him being reminded that in the darkness, things need to be taken, not given

[safe galleon]

is there any reason the witness couldn't have just done to us that thing it did to the guardians in lightfall where it swipes its finger and cuts them entirely in half? i get why it didn't do this at any point prior to its first fight in the final campaign mission (it seemed to genuinely believe it could recruit us), but what about after that? it clearly seems to have some sense that we're a legitimate threat afterwards. is there an actual reason within the context of the story, or is it just a 'there wouldn't be a story if it did that' kind of situation?

[ivory sluice]

Oh, so that is when oryx became the taken king. Akka gave him the power to take

[ember storm]

He killed Akka and earned the rite

[ivory sluice]

And what was the con, that they had realized that caused that confrontation? Because at that time, none of them knew that the traveler wasn’t actually a godwave

[ember storm]

sword logic and their worms in general

[ivory sluice]

I thought they willingly took that and understood what was asked, so that they could survive past their short lives

[ember storm]

at the time, yes, this was years later

they had come to the realization that their existences would just be a cycle of killing over and over because of the worms that were inside them

After becoming taken king, Oryx fully subscribed to this system

Xivu followed him, but Savathun was never really on board after this

[safe galleon]

i think this has got to be in at least the top 10 of 'funniest ways to discover you're functionally immortal'

getting cain and abel'd

[ivory sluice]

Oh okay, I see now, at the time they took the worms they knew, but they didn’t see the big picture until that realization

Thanks!

And the video didn’t cover it, but what exactly did the witness do to crota to trick him into releasing vex into oryxs throne world?

[ember storm]

the witness did literally nothing

that was Savathun

entirely

[ivory sluice]

Ohh, and she did that because she was against the sword logic?

[ember storm]

she just did it because she could

[ivory sluice]

I see, what did she do?

Did she tell crota something?

[ember storm]

The Deathsingers invented the concept of Oversoul and oryx was impressed

Crota was just bumming around the house and did nothing so he got jealous

Savathun told him that cutting a hole in reality would lead him to discover a new power on his own, so he did that

That new power was the vex and they just immediately starting invading

[ivory sluice]

Ahh, did this all happen at the same time nokris went to xol?

[safe galleon]

why does savvy oppose the sword logic again, anyway? is it some genuine matter of principle or is she more just like, apathetic towards it

[ember storm]

it’s just inherently detrimental to her and that’s the only reason

[safe galleon]

ah

so she just doesn't like it because its personally inconvenient

[ember storm]

she was more offended by the fact the witness tricked them with it rather than being forced to become a race of genocidal bug people

having no worm is just better for her

[safe galleon]

yeah that makes sense

[ember storm]

don’t think so

we don’t really have an exact timeline because yknow,,all mention of Nokris was deleted from their recorded history

[ivory sluice]

Oh okay, thanks for filling in the gaps.

[safe galleon]

it's hard not to wonder about what savathun's endgame in the pale heart is. she says something to the effect of 'it's not just existence at stake' which sounds like

a little ominous

but i'm not sure we have enough information to theorize on what she might be after

[scarlet jasper]

I think it’s just a power grab

At the end of the day she does want to be in charge

[safe galleon]

i mean, fair, yeah, it could easily be that for sure

but savvy isn't usually that forthcoming

[ivory sluice]

So the fallen were the ideal utopian race before their collapse?

[safe galleon]

i mean they were a thriving society pre whirlwind if im not mistaken, if thats what you mean

[ivory sluice]

I mean by the sense that they never used the light for chaos and war, like rhulks species did, they were truly only a peaceful race?

[safe galleon]

i ammmmm

not sure about that

i mean that in a literal sense. i have no clue

[ivory sluice]

And what about servitors, how did they come about? Are they eliksni? Or were they created? Or are they just a whole different species that the eliksni fed off of?

[safe galleon]

they're mechanical constructs made to store ether from what i remember?

[ivory sluice]

Made by the fallen?

[safe galleon]

they're like, semi-sentient if im remembering right

[safe galleon]

i thiiink so?

[ivory sluice]

I see, thanks

[safe galleon]

you'd have to ask someone else for that specifically

all's i know is that somehow they create and store ether, and they're mechanical, not biological

im very rusty with lore

[scarlet jasper]

I don’t think savathuns forthcoming in how she grabs power, but I do think it’s clear she wants to be in charge

[ivory sluice]

Yeah I’m watching the 10 hour marathon, just trying to fill in gaps along the way

[lofty badge]

Yes

Servitors are robots build by the fallen after the fall of their homeworld to create and feed them ethier

[ivory sluice]

Oh this was after riis was invaded?

[safe galleon]

the fallen also seem to have some kind of reverence towards the servitors, i assume because they provide sustenance and such

[gentle geyser]

Because the fallen view machines as gods

[lofty badge]

ye more or less but they might have existed before too as their homeworld was full of Ether

but they also spread out to other planets

[lofty badge]

yep

[blazing wasp]

This is why devil splicers was so good at rallying people to their cause

[lofty badge]

House salvation even deflied their own servitors to say "Man fuck the great machine"

[safe galleon]

i'm not quite sure why servitors are like, weaponized though? i guess it makes some sense

[lofty badge]

but that was more to show they were going away from worshipping machines

[lofty badge]

cause shield during combat

[blazing wasp]

Likely a later addition for obvious reasons

[safe galleon]

yeah i get that, it always just seemed a little odd to have servitors as bosses and such when theyre basically an automatic food farm

[lofty badge]

well each fallen house did also have prime servitors

[hazy pond]

Do guardians who lose their ghost start to age or are they still eternal?

[blazing wasp]

Unknown

We have one potential case study, who is a awful case study

Because its eris

[hazy pond]

Good point, thanks

[scarlet jasper]

Shin malphur was risen as a baby

[trim grotto]

I would draw a difference between maturing and ageing, given the context.

[ivory sluice]

How did you know that failsafe would be put in the helm before this season started?

[trim grotto]

Well, she's a ship safety AI. To me, it only made sense that the ship AI would be put into a new ship.

Unfortunately, she's only connected to the HELM.

Still, I was very very happy to see Failsafe again, especially with my half-right hope that she'd be put into the HELM

[ivory sluice]

When will rahool come to the pale heart?

[trim grotto]

He's busy on Reach right now

[ivory sluice]

Oh my lord. He’s the only vendor that’s not everywhere that needs to be everywhere. We have vaults everywhere but this dude won’t leave the tower

[trim grotto]

Don't worry he's speedrunning the campaign

[lofty badge]

wtf

[ivory sluice]

What’s the lore behind prime engrams? What is their purpose, why do we not have the ability to decrypt them?

[trim grotto]

There's basically none for Primes specifically beyond them being "powerful". You could say the contents within require more data/power/something, but there's nothing to it, really.

[ivory sluice]

And then also why do some engrams that we leave on the ground go to the post in their engram form, while some engrams we leave on the ground go to the post already decrypted?

[trim grotto]

That's pretty much entirely gameplay quirks

[chrome fog]

(Geeez I have a lot to catch up) Yes all raids have significance to the narrative

Just search on Ishtar

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[ivory sluice]

Hold up why is byf the only YouTube link, what about everyone else?

[trim grotto]

[ivory sluice]

That’s toxic

[fresh zephyr]

Nah, AI is great for this type of stuff

[chrome fog]

Or y’know

Just use the resource the community used to pull entries from the API

[gentle geyser]

One of the guardian ranks involves failsafe

[ivory sluice]

This was last season,

[trim grotto]

I've been saying I want Failsafe in the HELM for a long time

[gentle geyser]

No, its this season

[trim grotto]

reread the thing you're replying to

[gentle geyser]

I know

[ivory sluice]

Mael is an insider, I was talking to him about making the helm into a clan social area

[gentle geyser]

Im more so saying instead of replying

[trim grotto]

[chrome fog]

Ooof fuck it I’m not reading 800+ messages

[ivory sluice]

I never saw it coming, I thought the whole failsafe Nessus thing was over with

[chrome fog]

It was, which was sad

[gentle geyser]

Should have been

[chrome fog]

It’s a new thing now

[ivory sluice]

Oh is this failsafe but not failsafe?

I haven’t started echoes yet

[trim grotto]

Uh, no, just normal Failsafe

I'm very happy to have Failsafe back
I was grinning the whole intro

[ivory sluice]

So when I start this season, will she no longer be on nessus?

[gentle geyser]

One of the twelve failsafe enjoyers

[chrome fog]

I neeed to finish Final Shape uurgh

[trim grotto]

Do you actually want me to answer this?

[ivory sluice]

Now that you say that no

[trim grotto]

'cause I can, but the intro will also explain it

[ivory sluice]

I’ll find out today when I get home

[trim grotto]

ye

[ivory sluice]

I do want to know though, why did rhulks dad pretend to be part of the tribes if he was always a part of the regime?

[chrome fog]

Why does a politician pretend to be grassroots when they come from money?

Is most likely for infiltrating that group

[ivory sluice]

The difference is he slaughtered stalkers no?

[ember storm]

I don’t remember any early Rhulk lore besides skinning house pets

[ivory sluice]

Like this wasn’t a 5 sec respawn zone this was a darkness you go to orbit type of zone

[trim grotto]

To be honest, I read it as he joined up with the regime. But it's been a while since I've read it and that book was a bit difficult to parse.

[ivory sluice]

Ahh byf has made it seem like both his parents came from the regime

That makes sense

[trim grotto]

I'd have to go over it again, don't take my word for it

[ember storm]

take his word for it

[ivory sluice]

And that rhulk was lied to by his dad, that’s why he joined up and wasn’t upset when he ended up killing everyone, because his whole life was lies

I heard it as his dad got taken away by the regime, and so he swore to avenge his father until he was taken away by the regime and his father spoke on his case to join, and that’s when he realized his father was part of the regime all along

[fresh zephyr]

WAIT HALSIKS AND SCUR-V CANONICALLY DIE IN EXCISION?

Please no

[jagged badge]

Wait really?

What’s that from?

[trim grotto]

As per what?

[ember storm]

If I had to assume, they might be some of the npcs spawned in? But don’t have an internal invincible flag?

Haven’t seen either though

[trim grotto]

They did spawn in yeah

[ember storm]

like I don’t think it’s meant to be canon

It’s like that one cabal guy in moon psi ops

he can die but you can save him, but it also doesn’t matter

[fresh zephyr]

I saw them die in Excision to a tormentor, I didn't notice my first few times

Unless it's random

[fresh zephyr]

^ I saw them die and I was like "Noooooooo"

[jagged badge]

Oh right

[fresh zephyr]

I hope they're not dead dead😔

Halsiks and Scur-V my beloved

My crew🙏🏻😔

[ember storm]

well one of them is a robot

and the other one isn’t Arrha, so I don’t care

[fresh zephyr]

😔

I will defend the Ketchcrash crew with my life

Excision still makes me cry. I've played it about 7 times now lol

[lofty badge]

do we know how many ghosts joined the lucent hive

[jagged badge]

We don’t

Numbers are vague so that there’s room to tell the story first

Because if you restrict yourself with an arbitrary number then, yk

[outer dragon]

More than 8

[lofty badge]

true true, so a good awnser is just "Many" +500000000000000000000000000

?

[chrome fog]

If the numbers weren’t kept vague then someone would be able to theorize when we should have crushed all Hive Ghosts

And then the player base would be annoying about that

[vestal summit]

Are threadlings sentient?

[fresh zephyr]

It hasn't been spoken about enough, but imagine how terrifying it is for Failsafe, having missed everything. Reminds me of the pilot Futurama episode lmao

She doesn't even know about Tormentors

Poor Failsafe

[vestal summit]

Brotha, se was stuck in the 2018 on the forsaken trailer.

She didn't even knew that Uldren died, only that cayde did.

How do we tell her that every form of life in the universe almost died due to a giant forehead guy.

[fresh zephyr]

She missed everything, it's so scary. She's actually kinda lucky she avoided the Witness and kinda ghosted the Age of Loss

We just bring her cookies every December, and she has no idea what's actually going on outside the Exodus Black

[vestal summit]

She seems more excited about fishing than anything else tho.

So I don't think we have to worry about her AI mental health

[empty fern]

Surprised byf short https://youtube.com/shorts/yB1Zb2xdqzs?si=NDLAIP67vsV4OEfk

[prime kiln]

What is this

[jagged badge]

Final Shape shenanigans

[empty fern]

Victims

Of the Bonecrusher (level 1)

[jagged badge]

Real

[lofty badge]

a pipe

or something that looks like a sort of pipe

[vestal summit]

Are threadlings sentient?

[dim minnow]

they seem more like an extension of their creators

[vestal summit]

So, do guardians feel something when threadlings die?

[blazing wasp]

Doubt it, i believe the threadlings are "sentient" but not "sapeint" which is a very big difference

probably just sentient enough to be mostly independently acting from the caster

and nothing more, unlikely to even think

[vagrant bridge]

So more like an AI loitering munition than a kamikaze pilot

[ember storm]

they’re just strand given mobile form

[blazing wasp]

Its not AI because the intelligence is not artificial

its technically not "intelligent" either

i mean if we're gonna be calling chatGPT of all things AI then threadlings would be even more correct than this, so fair enough actually

[dim minnow]

Broodweaver lore tab

[dim minnow]

Broodweaver lore tab indicates otherwise

[vestal summit]

Broodweaver must be incredibly unpopular in-canon since everytime someone summons them they feel the pain of exploding on an enemy.

[ember storm]

I mean you’re dying regularly anyway

Plus if Cayde’s any indication, death is quite peaceful

[dim minnow]

so long as you're a Lightbearer it seems like

[lofty badge]

ye

just a endless nothing

but in a good way

just endless good feelings

[blazing wasp]

oh

[lofty badge]

what about the warlock stasis turrent, i assume its also a extension of the warlock's own mind given how stasis works

[dim minnow]

maybe an extension of emotions specfically

[wintry moth]

Has anyone figured out who the astronaut in the beginning cutscene of TFS is?

Unless the cutscene is just the Traveler showing our guardian in this vision, but as an astronaut connecting to back to the first cutscene in Destiny, I feel like it has pretty big implications no?

[ember storm]

we know specifically who the astronauts in the original mars mission are so it’s just meant to be a callback

it’s part of a metaphorical vision

[wintry moth]

Sorry, I knew who they were I just didn’t know if that cutscene had any more meaning behind it

Cool tho

[stark fjord]

Who would win in a fight

Eris morn or Themis night

[dim minnow]

who?

[stark fjord]

Jokes

[vital lodge]

whats with saint and the number XIV

[stark fjord]

Eris or ghaul

[vital lodge]

is XIV 14?

[stark fjord]

Yes

[dim minnow]

it's his reboot number

[vital lodge]

man if he reboots again that rebrand is gonna cost a fortune

[stark fjord]

It’s his number before he resurrected he takes pride in it

Guardians can’t get rebooted

[vital lodge]

ah true'

[next bobcat]

Confirming that the veiled statues are the precursors

@trim grotto

[ember storm]

Are you asking?

[next bobcat]

Making sure of it

[ember storm]

Yes and no

[next bobcat]

Cos I’m like 95% sure

[ember storm]

I think in the “give yourself to darkness” place they each represent one member

But it’s not like the actual statues are totally linked

The witness is dead but the statues remain

[next bobcat]

Yeah but representative of the precursors

[ember storm]

They’re more like conduits they could communicate through

[next bobcat]

So do we know about the one defector?

[ember storm]

It wasn’t one

[next bobcat]

We know it’s multiple now don’t we

[ember storm]

It’s all of them

[next bobcat]

?

[ember storm]

The witness is its own entity born out of the race

None of them are “it”

[next bobcat]

Yeah I get that part

[ember storm]

They were all dissenters

[next bobcat]

Weren’t there some that didn’t join the creation of the witness?

[ember storm]

Those were just killed off

Not part of the process

Just dead

[dim minnow]

there was one who we knoew probably wasn't around for it

[next bobcat]

Did they die then?

[dim minnow]

we don't know

[next bobcat]

Ohohoho

[dim minnow]

could be long dead

[next bobcat]

Possibly

[dim minnow]

we aren't really sure how long the precursors lived for

or if they had any way to extend their life

[ember storm]

it was an ungodly amount of years ago and they were a “standard” race

unless it’s a taox situation but that itself is also debatable

[next bobcat]

On the other hand, with the whole “first knife” thing, do you guys think that the stump in the black garden is the tree of silver wings or something else entirely?

[ember storm]

I don’t think there’s anything else it could be but it also doesn’t really explain anything

[next bobcat]

Also, is that the thing that’s in the blooming in the pale heart? The white sorta spherical plant?

Or is that something else

[dim minnow]

I'm fairly certain that it is

it's placement in the raid and the fact we find a Veiled statue there is no coincidence

[next bobcat]

We do?

[ember storm]

Could you elaborate

[ember storm]

End of GoS

That was the whole revelation

[dim minnow]

and us reaching it is what started seson of Undying

[dim minnow]

it's supposed to resemble the Tree of Silver Wings

specifically the one we see in Arrivals

the Blooming itself is supposed to be a reimagining of the Cradle on Io

[ember storm]

It’s representing the cradle on Io as a whole but it’s interesting that this tree is an actual tree

Not the white solid material the tree on Io was

[next bobcat]

Ok

I started playing in season of plunder, so I’m not super familiar with a lot of the past season lore.

[vagrant bridge]

Ye ik, just thinking it's more similar to one than the other

Not technically intelligent but able to track targets

[blazing wasp]

like, similar to "AI"-AI, or the modern use for the term AI like Chat-GPT

[vagrant bridge]

The latter

[blazing wasp]

ah

i mean i guess yeah

[vagrant bridge]

Imagine putting failsafe in a missile

That'd be crazy

[blazing wasp]

well technically they already did

what is a rocket, if not a very large missile

[vagrant bridge]

You have a good point

We should refit the Exodus ships in the cosmodrome to just be full of the red barrels from the cosmodrome

I wonder if those are still on working order, actually

We see them in the cutscene at the start of the season so it's entirely possible we might use them again

[next bobcat]

Why does failsafe need a hologram can’t we just build a different interface so she can actually be physically transported here?

[lofty badge]

who is Themis night?

[lofty badge]

no, she is a part of the exodus black

unless we build her like a exo body

[empty fern]

That’ll take atleast a season

Since Rasputin took quite a few

[lofty badge]

ye

[next bobcat]

Ok

But her AI has been transported to the helm, right?

Or is it just a relay

[empty fern]

Is that a weezer pfp while I listen to weezer

[next bobcat]

Yes!!,

[empty fern]

Kek

[fresh zephyr]

Do we think we'll see a new Vex enemy this season? Besides secret Disciple lookin ahh villain

[next bobcat]

No disciple

[empty fern]

No

[next bobcat]

No more witness

[fresh zephyr]

Give it a year lol

[next bobcat]

Fair

[ember storm]

It’s a relay

[next bobcat]

Ok

[fresh zephyr]

Our worst fears have been realised.

Somehow, the Wutnes returned

[ember storm]

Her physical ai would take up an ungodly amount of server space seeing as she’s also the operating system for the exodus black itself

[fresh zephyr]

Wutnes wtf

[next bobcat]

What weezer

R u listening to

[empty fern]

It passed, now it’s something else

[next bobcat]

It gone, bye bye

[next bobcat]

Hold up
Your PFP implies you play destiny 2 on a laptop

[fresh zephyr]

Swift Taylor plays Final Shape ofc

[next bobcat]

Ah

Yes of course

Forgive me

[chrome fog]

Question Nexus, how is Signalis related to Cabbages

[empty fern]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1019999041943253052/1249382504650248334/image0.jpg?ex=666db121&is=666c5fa1&hm=8ef86542422fd6c1a8be66f7390370f9dc692c794640693d99b2268e4886dc39&

[chrome fog]

lol

[raven glen]

I saw the coming episodes firkul something like that im glad he is back but why turn evil? Didnt he follow his father meaning crow? I wonder what made him go rouge on crow im guessing all barons are dead right? Besides fanatic

I swear if we get a raid of that episode or a boss and i see taniks im done. Taniks reborn again

[jagged badge]

He followed Uldren. Fikrul probably does not see Crow the same way. And Crow sees Fikrul as a threat he has to deal with to clean up Uldren’s mess so

[raven glen]

Kinda sad wish there was partnership maybe just maybe when episode comes it gets emotional with crow and fikrul

I mean isnt uldren still crow tho or when people die they get new identities when revived by a ghost

Just he regrets his past

[jagged badge]

Guardians don’t remember their pasts

Crow got to develop differently, as a whole new person, before Savathûn restored Uldren’s memories to him

At which point Crow looked back with shame and regret. He eventually grew to accept them, accepting the good of Uldren and deeming it his responsibility to fix the bad

[ember storm]

Becoming a Lightbearer is a factory reset on your life and almost nobody gets the chance to look back at theirs

Ana had the opportunity of one, literally being a Bray, and also having her id card on her person when she died

Savathun also had a contingency and plan put in place to immediately recover her lost memories and continue on as the same person

Anyway, Fikrul probably doesn’t even know Crow exists, and more importantly he is literally insane and worshipped the idea of Uldren more than the man

even during the forsaken campaign Fikrul shares a “is this guy for real” glance with his barons when Uldren starts talking about honoring Mara’s memory

His fixation on Uldren mainly just comes from his view of scorn in general, being the natural extension of Eliksni evolution

He believed Uldren gave him this power, so he revered him

Learning about Crow would not make any improvements

[raw hazel]

me

[empty fern]

Nuh uh

[raven glen]

What was the point of the the death witness we get salvation and peace or maybe Ig message was we will get salvation through the pain harship

[raven glen]

So basically mind reset makes me wonder if we will ever know our gaurdians origin. Imagine we was actually the first gaurdian ever who died and got revived plot twist

[empty fern]

We will never know (due to self insert reasons and gameplay reasons)

Although I do wonder awoken timelines with other things

[fresh zephyr]

Interestingly, in the older versions of D1 from before it released, there were multiple openings with a different origin for each race but they ended up scrapping them.

[wet horizon]

anyone name their ghost??

??

[chrome fog]

It’s purposefully open to interpretation so that you can make it up for yourself

[empty fern]

Gonna name mine Koi for hunter

[chrome fog]

And no, the “First Guardian” plot wouldn’t work because there’s already Lightbearers and Guardians who have made a mark on history before your time

[wet horizon]

Named mine rainfall on my hunter

[chrome fog]

The “Salvation” the Witness offered was to live without the hardship and suffering that comes with being alive and active in the universe. It wanted stillness, to keep change from happening so that there’d be no opportunity for hardship, though there would also be no opportunity to improve, to succeed at anything, no freedom to choose what you want

[empty fern]

Like that one parent

[wet horizon]

Fr

[broken relic]

I secretly hope Frontiers will give your guardian rpg dialogue choices and stuff ||and romance options||

[fresh zephyr]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on that, as cool as it would be

[broken relic]

Yeah

[broken relic]

He's not exactly using his at the moment

[fresh zephyr]

I still remember when they were hyping up Destiny 2 before launch, talking about evolving social spaces and how each location would have a character who would work with you, people were thinking it'd be like RPG companions

And then we just got vendors

[empty fern]

Ana and Elsie have run off somewhere this season (they probably have the no legs model)

[fresh zephyr]

Who talked at us over radio comms

[broken relic]

Yeah

I can dream at least

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed

Tbh, if I could add a feature though, I'd love to see Eliksni Guardians added to CC. But it'll never happen just because they'd have to make two versions of every armor set.

[trim grotto]

That's an entirely different game

[broken relic]

I'm really just fantasizing I have zero expectations until we see something

[fresh zephyr]

To be fair, Destiny is basically an entirely different game now from when it started. They can do major changes if they want. In this case I just doubt they would though.

[trim grotto]

It's changed, but not that much.

It does actually sound like a whole different game, though. Picture it; a different game set in the same universe.

[chrome fog]

It woul be very neat if some of the areas did get developed to reflect some of the Strikes, though I guess that involves being unable to reuse those areas

[empty fern]

Speaking of strikes

Exodus crash is no long available. Wonder what awaits us in failsafes crash

[fresh zephyr]

I dunno. Look at Vanilla D1 to now. The only thing that’s still the same is basically the core gameplay. Pretty much every system is massively different now, as is how they tell stories and so on. Hell, when TTK first came out a lot of people talked about how it almost felt like a completely different game because of how many changes they made with it, and that was so long ago.

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/uncharted-nathan-drake-weve-come-far-uncharted4-weve-made-progress-gif-24675839

[ember storm]

core gameplay

you know how dialogue options would change that one specific thing

[fresh zephyr]

Dialogue options would be story related. I’m talking about shooting mechanics and the basic framework of abilities.

Hell, Vanilla D1 didn’t even have a quest system, and the story was heavily non linear to the point that you did missions in whatever order you wanted once you moved to a planet. Going from that to what we’ve got now was a huge change

I would consider adding something like dialogue options to be relatively minor compared to that, especially since it could just be flavor text.

[heavy ivy]

So like

Why was Uldren such a bitch, and why was Mara so condescending towards The Guardian who, just like them, wanted to help Humanity?

(In D1)

[raven glen]

Then like the meme says what gender am i. Gender? Im a mekanik😌

Was was uldren a bitch in destiny 1 ans forsaken? Wasnt the first reason cus the taken war with oryx all that

[chrome fog]

Yeah just make whatever it you think your guardian is.

[heavy ivy]

Or just make all three different!!!

[chrome fog]

In fairness this was their first interaction with Lightbearers when they brought Awoken back towards Earth
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/savin

There was also Mara being a relatively young woman close to when the whole origins presented in Marasenna happened, and very clear issues with her mother and her being preternaturally inclined towards her controlling paranoia

[heavy ivy]

That doesn't seem like the cutscene

Unless I'm missing the point

[chrome fog]

Imagine a game-accurate loot goblin came up to you like that and you watched them dipshit their way across the Reef

And then you had to deal with possibly more of them

[heavy ivy]

Yeah that is fair

[chrome fog]

First impressions are everything

[heavy ivy]

They wared the Eliksni just for crossing over

But still

The Guardian is either a Human, an Exo, or an Awoken

[chrome fog]

And then Uldren being wholly dependent on her, his time in the Black Garden and being affected by the Black Heart; for Forsaken there was also him crashing after the failed attack on the Dreadnaught and being stranded somewhere on the Reef, to the point he had to be locked up

[heavy ivy]

I'm not sure why they got so pissy

[chrome fog]

At the time the Fallen were still not friendly towards humanity and its various strains, the closest approximation of any human-eliksni relations would be after the Awoken’s arrival to the Sol System

[heavy ivy]

I know

[chrome fog]

In fairness you are like a 1 or 2 year old Guardian

Like the Guardian is only 10 years old now

And you’re not even leadership

Not even too renowned

[heavy ivy]

Hmmm

So it's more like

"This jobber is wasting our time" kind of annoyance

[chrome fog]

There’s also the whole Warlords business and humanity being stuck in a medieval society for the longest time

Whilst the Awoken were able to kinda recreate and develop their technology and society within the Distributary

[heavy ivy]

Did Mara know about the Warlords?

[chrome fog]

There were Awoken during the Dark Ages, such as Zavala

So like

They would’ve been aware

[heavy ivy]

Oh

Didn't know they communicated

[chrome fog]

No just

In a similar way the Neomuni were aware of the Warlords, most likely

[heavy ivy]

Wasn't there a Cloud Strider who literally went to Earth?

[chrome fog]

Seeing the loot goblins and the lords of the land, like why wouldn’t they stay up amidst the Reef and keep to themselves a bit

[heavy ivy]

And then told everyone?

[chrome fog]

To erase the existence of Neomuna from Rasputin’s data

Specifically to hide Neomuna after they observed the Warlords

[heavy ivy]

Right

Did Mara communicate with people from earth?

[chrome fog]

Don’t see why she would until the City Age, as most of the planet was divided up amongst the territories of the Warlords and the various other alien races’ warbands wandering across Earth

[heavy ivy]

So how would she have known about the Warlords if she didn't speak to anybody who went to Earth?

[fresh zephyr]

She sent Uldren to scout

[chrome fog]

Scouts? Observing Earth from a distance?

[heavy ivy]

Thank you

[ember storm]

also important context is that this was after uldren ventured to the black garden and began his mental downfall

[chrome fog]

Being the ominous space elf people up in space would still leave the possibility of people from Earth to reach her but also keep them separated from all the nastiness going on in the early time post-Collapse

[heavy ivy]

Ahh

[fresh zephyr]

Nah, that was before

She sent Uldren to scout right after they arrived

[ember storm]

i'm talking about D1

the thing that started the conversation

[fresh zephyr]

Ah

[ember storm]

the vanilla cutscenes

[heavy ivy]

So she sent Uldren to scout, Uldren comes back, and then doesn't go scouting for like tens of years?

[ember storm]

for Mara: extended bad history with lightbearers, a distaste for the general idea of what the traveler even was, repeated losses at the wake of the fallen (humanity didn't help), and just not having enough personal growth to sympathize with anyone

[fresh zephyr]

He went out a lot, trying to do various things to impress Mara

[ember storm]

Uldren: emotional manipulation for his entire life, superiority complex, and madness induced by the darkness

so you shouldn't really be surprised they weren't rolling out red carpets for some random guardian who waltzed in demanding directions to the black garden

[chrome fog]

Like the Dark Ages were for a while, a couple centuries, I would also keep myself distanced from the barely held together lord states of malevolent Warlords

[fresh zephyr]

They were isolationist as fuck which is funny in retrospect, with the lore considering Mara always intended to return to help humanity

[ember storm]

Petra is also a lot better at hiding it but she has WAY MORE distaste for humanity than either of those two and she hasnt changed literally at all

[chrome fog]

THE LIST

WHERE’S DOVA’S LIST

[heavy ivy]

This conversation is so hard to follow.
Uldren went to the Black Garden BEFORE The Guardian arrived? That would explain it

[ember storm]

i mean

literally how else would he have the directions for it

you're kinda just supposed to pick up on that

[heavy ivy]

By knowing where it is but not entering it

[fresh zephyr]

He killed a lil Gate Lord of his own

[chrome fog]

We are a very recent addition to the universe, we have very recently earned renown

Again, D1 was across 3 years

[ember storm]

he also knew exactly what kind of key was needed, how to extract it, and the knowledge retained after said extraction

remember, the gate lord's eye died on us

it would be worthless without Uldren remembering the exact coordinates off the top of his head

[heavy ivy]

Yeah, well I didn't pick up on that

I didn't think it was a necessary entailment

[chrome fog]

Babby guardy wants directions to the Robot Hell Pit, I would look at them stupid too

[heavy ivy]

So he went there, got PTSD, and is a mean emo kid

[heavy ivy]

Yeah

[ember storm]

anyway

here's the petra twitlonger

courtesy of dova

#📚lore-discussion message

[chrome fog]

And more than a couple years of emotional manipulation and neglect from Mara, who herself has been running Awoken society for a couple millennia in the Distributary and then centuries starting sometime in the middle of the Dark Ages up until now, including the centuries the City Age has lasted on top of those within the Dark Ages

[heavy ivy]

I wouldn't have hung out with him

[chrome fog]

They’re siblings

It’s kinda par for the course

[ember storm]

it's also kind of how she kept him in line

also the fact she had uldren acting in her fleet during the taken war knowing fully well everyone involved besides her would die

[shadow crypt]

does the tangled shore still exist in the lore

[ember storm]

yeah

[shadow crypt]

ah ok

[ember storm]

spider and the scorn all just fucked off so no more reason for us to go there

awoken sweeped it

[shadow crypt]

is the reef the tangled shore?

or is it something else

[ember storm]

the reef is the new name for the asteroid belt, mixed in with a bunch of space wrecks

the tangled shore is like a settlement they made out of it by literally tying a bunch of rocks together

[shadow crypt]

Oh damn lol

[dim minnow]

the Reef is actually a region within the Asteroid Belt

where the wreckage of several ships lie

[empty fern]

Wait how close is the reef to the dreadnaught?

[empty fern]

Damn

That’s more than 2 football fields huh

[ember storm]

shockingly when things float into space they don't slow down

like the cruiser that held the broodmother and her kin, which just floated away from the battle of saturn and landed in the tangled shore

[empty fern]

Interesting

[ember storm]

notice anything of interest

[empty fern]

The thing in the back, tricksters engram area?

Also oooo, cables

[ember storm]

i'm going to bed

[empty fern]

Gn

[dim minnow]

I remember the little sniper nest room in Sorik's Cut
There was this little piston thing in there that moved and I thought it was so interesting

a small hidden room that was seldom used yet it had such a detail within it

[eager trout]

Why have we never visited Uranus? And why has it never even been shown in the game?

[dim minnow]

We never had a reason, though there was an instance where Ana went there to find some Warmind stuff

she ended up having to fight an insane Exo who had the record for the most resets

fired two Golden Gun shots so powerful they traveled for Light YEars

[fresh zephyr]

Are there major dialogue differences between veteran and new players that people have noticed for TFS?

[empty fern]

Uhhh don’t think so, they stopped the veteran/new person changes after red war was vaulted and everyone got the cosmodrome beginning

[fresh zephyr]

interesting

I guess that's less for them to write line for, which I would assume would be easier on the writing team

[empty fern]

The only differences would be a few lines with cayde and hunters

[ember storm]

yeah guardian immediately recognizing cayde and asking "how long it's been" is basically hard confirmation, everyone is 'veteran' now

[dim minnow]

there was some dialogue for Lightfall in regards to Calus

[empty fern]

There was?

[ember storm]

yes but it had multiple triggers

[fresh zephyr]

They still do them occasionally

[ember storm]

either levi completion or opulence at least

[fresh zephyr]

But it’s rare

[ember storm]

Calus recognizes you and referenced him not having any treasures for you this time

[chrome fog]

Eevee would like to make a big argument that they could still implement it based on some shit from Lightfall but the lack of it in general points to then just adopting “everyone is now veteran” approach to make things simple and avoid overcomplicating shit

[fresh zephyr]

He also reacts if you have the Shadow title

[empty fern]

Smokin hot

[chrome fog]

Need to make my Hunter more tech-cowboy than just cowboy but I have the campaign to finish on my Warlock

Oh wait I thought this was a joke on the thing not loading just realized the dialogue

Is that Nimbus?

[fresh zephyr]

I think it’s one of the patrol NPCs

[chrome fog]

OH yeah Sam

[ember storm]

all the neomuni are kinda unhinged and i like it

[cosmic sable]

so im returning after years now. trying to actually learn the lore. its a shame how much content is no longer in the game bc the campaigns now feel so disjointed and incomplete. gotta watch a 10 hour video essay to really understand whats going on but i worry when i finally get to play the final shape it wont hit the same having never played all the seasonal episodes :(( any suggestions on how to get the most out of the current D2 experience ?

[empty fern]

A planet full of failsafes

[chrome fog]

Shadowkeep-Lightfall campaigns are still available to play, there’s the timeline missions as well as the overall in-game timeline to help catch up, plus we have summaries of most of the content from each season in the pins if you’d like.

[cosmic sable]

thanks. yeah im at the beginning of witch queen now. but i might go and try to find cutscene compilations for the in between stuff to get more context.

[chrome fog]

I think the Destiny Lore Vault channel has compilations of most if not all the seasons and expansions’ cutscenes and dialogue, Bungie also has their own compilations too

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[chrome fog]

We also have Ishtar Collective’s curated timeline of every event in-universe for something a bit more comprehensive

[willow dagger]

~waits for Mael to come back on~

@trim grotto Was drifter ever married? Does he have any love interests?

[sharp osprey]

eris

not married but they are very flirtatious

[fresh zephyr]

They’ve committed unprotected handholding as well

[willow dagger]

I thought he wanted to eat her eyes??

[sharp osprey]

that might be part of his weird flirting idk lol

https://youtu.be/fwzaLgdfTD0?si=7Tgec_m9hL0JqBE- he made her laugh one time, which is quite the achievement

[fast tapir]

every few months i see this video pop up

the way he laughed after 😭

[willow dagger]

Ummm

[sharp osprey]

i really wish the "dark vanguard" was more of a thing in the story

[willow dagger]

Literally

Something is DEFINITELY happening there

[sharp osprey]

i remember reading at one point that eris and drifter were supposed to play a bigger role in beyond light but it got scrapped cuz of covid or something

and i also find it interesting that its highly likely that Elsie knew about Neomuna because she has a pouka, but never mentioned it or anything

[fast tapir]

hmm i dont think she knew about it honestly

she did find this cool ass floating fish thing though!

[sharp osprey]

is that really the explanation lol

[fast tapir]

yeah she found it in a abandoned ship iirc

either on a moon or in space i cant really remember

okay ye

[rich veldt]

space station

[fast tapir]

abandoned space station near pluto

[sharp osprey]

BUNGIEEEEE
PUT PLUTO IN DESTINY AND MY LIFE IS YOURS

pluto would be a sick destination

[rich veldt]

all we knew before was nefelle stronghold and pouka in a space station until seraph and lf release

[fast tapir]

yep

[sharp osprey]

doesnt efrideet lead a group of people out by pluto or somewhere?

[rich veldt]

elsie wouldnt have know unless she had somehow found it as we never made it before

[willow dagger]

Idk, she seems like she could keep a secret

[rich veldt]

given how vital it is i doubt she would if she knew

[frigid sparrow]

Speaking of seraph... Clovis up to anything recently?

[sharp osprey]

being dead, right? or is he back in the big head on europa

[frigid sparrow]

Clovis never really died, he just shut himself off (figuratively) from the vanguard since he was pissed at them for letting Rasputin sacrifice himself

But it's been some time since then... So wonder if Clovis was trying to catch up in any way to the events surrounding us post-lightfall

[sharp osprey]

its definitely a loose end

i regret not playing seraph that much

[willow dagger]

Hm

[frigid sparrow]

Like, I feel like Europa should be a part of echoes at some point since that's a big vex construction site (especially regarding the glassway)

[frigid sparrow]

I don't, more battlegrounds as seasonal activities? Mid!!!

[sharp osprey]

yeah but story

[frigid sparrow]

I mean, sure, it involved eramis so I liked those parts, and Rasputin is cool, but other than that

[rich veldt]

no he was kicked out from the helm back to europa

raspy could tell what clovis was planning and said cya bitch

still wanna know who he was talking to with the message "they know"

[frigid sparrow]

Yea, it was moreso that, I think I just got confused with Clovis threatening to withdraw out access to braytech stuff after he got kicked out

[sharp osprey]

https://youtu.be/uqmArgO-2Ec?si=Jj7Z3k-ZB90WPZMF i love this cutscene so much

[willow dagger]

Literally so BEAUTIFUL

I cried

But tbh I cried the whole time so

[sharp osprey]

it completely blows the traveler vision from red war out of the water

i'm a sucker for slow or still camera movements

the pre-rendered cutscenes throughout the entirety of final shape are just really well directed

[fresh zephyr]

Honestly, the whole scene where we enter the ‘actual’ Traveler before we go into the Pale Heart was super cool

Where you can see some of its interior structures

[sharp osprey]

its crazy how well the storytelling of Destiny has evolved, from the classic "i dont have time to explain lmao" to, well, basically the entire plot and themes of final shape. Sure, theres been hiccups (lightfall) but for the most part Destiny's story has been really good lately

[fresh zephyr]

TFS is honestly in a league of its own in terms of storytelling. None of the other expansions even come close.

They really cooked

[sharp osprey]

i agree, and this is coming from a witch queen enjoyer

but, i am now more of a Final Shape enjoyer than i ever was a witch queen enjoyer

[fresh zephyr]

I just hope they learn from this though. That they look at what they did right and apply it to the stuff they have in development

Because if we go back to the old level of quality after this, it’s just going to feel disappointing

[sharp osprey]

the transition from the end of the saga to the start of whatever the next one is with Frontiers will be very important

[frigid sparrow]

We're in seasonal storytelling time right now, we might be cooked ngl 💀

[sharp osprey]

erm akchually its episodic storytelling 🤓

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, Echoes is….not really it so far

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah I'll believe it when I see it

[sharp osprey]

echoes seems like a story

i dont have an opinion yet

its pretty early still

[fresh zephyr]

I don’t know what the hell they were thinking going from TFS to Failsafe

[frigid sparrow]

I hope more characters are integrated other than the new antagonist

[frigid sparrow]

Don't diss the goat

I'm thankful it's not another season with mara

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, Mara has been overdone. They need to let her rest for a while.

[sharp osprey]

when i'm in a unfunny competition and my opponent is the Nessus parts of Red War

[fresh zephyr]

Really though, Revenant and Heresy flow so well from the open plot threads

[frigid sparrow]

But if it's just failsafe, ikora, Osiris, and saint (who is likely gonna be out of commission based on the trailer) then it is probably cooked

[fresh zephyr]

Meanwhile Echoes is just ‘Oh hey it’s Vex time again’

[frigid sparrow]

Like, the vex have operations going on in Europa and neomuna too, we have reason to include Clovis and nimbus (although with nimbus not having their own lines in excision they probably couldn't get the VA sooo probably not happening)

[sharp osprey]

would it be blasphemous to suggest that the vex might be a detriment to destiny storytelling as a whole because of their complete lack of character or personality or relatability

[frigid sparrow]

You say vex time again like we've had a vex focused story in the past almost 3 years

[frigid sparrow]

Yes because splicer is still the best season

[fresh zephyr]

I say it because Bungie always tries to pull them out as stop gaps

Look at Undying

[sharp osprey]

the interesting parts of splicer's story were the eliksni stuff, not really the vex

the vex are cool aesthetically, but narratively they just kind of exist

[fresh zephyr]

And they don’t know what to do with them

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah but quria was also a banger

I really like quria

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah it was a shame they were just a mission boss

[sharp osprey]

i hope whoever the new vex villain is (probably maya sundaresh) will give the vex the voice they desperately need to become actually interesting

[frigid sparrow]

Design is cool, music is still my favorite in the game, actually had some interactions with us through the text, fun boss fight, awesome name (like, blade transform? Hell yeah)

[fresh zephyr]

Could have been a kickass dungeon

[frigid sparrow]

Plus, vex with the power to create taken by simulating oryx's taking power? Fuck yeah

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed

[sharp osprey]

vex are still the lamest of the enemy races tho

[frigid sparrow]

Would be funny if the new villain could do the same thing but with the light, creating vex guardians

[fresh zephyr]

And I dunno how they are gonna pull that stuff off with Maya

Like….she gonna take over the whole Collective, and then just have her be the guiding force for them from now on?

Would almost feel like a cop out since a lot of their stuff is still so mysterious

Especially since Unveiling is still up in the air, and the TFS stuff heavily implies the Precursors made them

[frigid sparrow]

The vex we see are the precursors and the sol collective

[sharp osprey]

that would be an interesting plot twist if its found out the precursors did in fact create the vex

i dunno how i would feel about it tbh

[fresh zephyr]

No, I mean the Precursors as in the Witness’ race.

Yeah it would kind of feel like a downgrade

[sharp osprey]

if we think about unveiling tho and the hints to the vex in there, maybe theres a connection with that and entelechy, yknow?

i dont know how to explain it

[fresh zephyr]

Could be, but who knows. I thought for sure they’d give more answers in the raid lore

But they didn’t go with that

[sharp osprey]

i should read that raid lore real quick

brb

[fresh zephyr]

It is pretty interesting on its own merits even if it wasn’t what I expected

Super cool stuff

Between it and the CE lore it gives a really interesting perspective on the Precursors and why the hell they thought the Witness was a good idea

[sharp osprey]

that was really cool

i think the dude in Lethe is the same guy from Entelechy

[fresh zephyr]

I think so too

[sharp osprey]

but the biggest thing i take from the lore book is that the witness is essentially a separate being from the sum of its parts

the way the individuals comprising it talk about it makes it seem like THE witness is the raw drive towards the final shape

and everyone else is like its body in a way

[fresh zephyr]

I think it’s more that its creation was a hack job. Most of the people who became it successfully ‘cut out’ the parts of themselves they didn’t like, the things they didn’t want to remember, and so were able to ‘unify’ into a single being. But then some people didn’t go all the way and cut themselves into the same shape as everyone else, and kept parts of themselves instead either consciously or unconsciously.

[sharp osprey]

that makes sense too

either way, the dissenters were obviously not what the witness wants within itself

dissenters are its doubts and fears and well, dissents, cuz despite what it thinks about itself, it is not a being of perfect drive and purpose

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed

[sharp osprey]

this dialogue shouldve been in the raid itself lol, but i know thats not how raids work

[fresh zephyr]

I thought the bits about their civilization and how they interacted with other races was also interesting

They wanted to help, but constantly faced rejection

And were basically forced to watch as these other species tore themselves apart, and their conflicts occasionally spilled over to the Precursors themselves

[sharp osprey]

i wonder if any of the echoes will turn back into precursor people

cuz i think thats what the echoes are, the individual souls that comprised the witness

and then theres the rogue precursor from Entelechy

which one was that?

HNW or RS

[fresh zephyr]

Can’t remember exactly

And going by what the devs said in the trailer, the Echoes are the Witness’ ‘memories’ given shape by Light, so they could really be anything

[sharp osprey]

here's something i just saw when looking through r/destinylore real quick
someone suggested that the traveler and the veil both come from the gardener, and that the winnower doesnt have paracausality because, if unveiling is to be believed, he's trying to win the game by proving that the old rules can still win.

[fresh zephyr]

I considered that myself, but in Unveiling the Winnower says ‘we both became rules in the game’, which I think rules that out

[sharp osprey]

ah, thats right

[fresh zephyr]

Tbh, I really don’t know where they are gonna go with things

They have so many angles

[sharp osprey]

yeah, the mythos could go in any direction

[fresh zephyr]

And looking at things, I’m guessing we probably won’t get any answers before Heresy at the earliest

Since they mentioned a ‘new eldritch power’ that’s ‘bubbling up’.

[sharp osprey]

i dont think that that's gonna be gardener/winnower tier

probably just something hive related

[fresh zephyr]

Could be, but they implied it was a power that would change the Hive and their dynamics, so it’s hard to say

[sharp osprey]

Heresy seems like it will be pretty important

it'll add the taken subclass

[fresh zephyr]

I’m guessing it may have to do with the red and green energies from the Traveler visions, maybe

Yeah

Definitely gonna be the more lore impactful of the bunch I think

[sharp osprey]

echoes seems like a bit of a meme honestly, revenant just seems cool, and then heresy will be the big one

[fresh zephyr]

Unless that ‘ancient civilization’ they hinted at existing in Nessus core ends up being something interesting

[sharp osprey]

oh right

forgot about that

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, I’m curious about it

Given the Atheon look alike was there

It could be something they pulled through time, or a product of the Echo or something

[sharp osprey]

i just hope echoes is more than failsafe being "funny" and woah guys maya sundaresh???!!!111

[fresh zephyr]

I hope so too

I still dunno what they were thinking though

Like after all the backlash they got for the tone of Vanilla D2, and then for LF

[sharp osprey]

failsafe is inevitably gonna get an exo body that everyone will be very respectful towards

[fresh zephyr]

You’d think they realize comic relief characters aren’t the play

rofl

I kind of hope she dies honestly

Would have her inclusion make more sense and it would set the tone to a better level

[sharp osprey]

average failsafe fan vs average rasputin enjoyer

[fresh zephyr]

‘Like oh? You thought this would be a happy reunion? Failsafe gets Rasputin’d’

[trim grotto]

Well gee
I've been absolutely delighted to have Failsafe reappear

[sharp osprey]

i dislike failsafe, but not as much as i dislike nimbus

but that doesnt say a whole lot

"funny" characters annoy me, i hated red war cayde

final shape and d1 cayde are great tho, cuz he's actually funny

[fresh zephyr]

Same. Asher was annoying for that reason too.

[sharp osprey]

subtle comedy works better for me than HAHA GUYS I'M QUIRKY LOOK I HAVE A FUCKING CHICKEN

but i will admit, failsafe might have had me exhale slightly faster out of my nose once or twice so far in echoes

[fresh zephyr]

The bit where she reacts to all the shit that went down previously was fairly amusing

[sharp osprey]

she just like me fr

but whyd they have to remove fishing

[fresh zephyr]

RIP

[sharp osprey]

honestly i would not be surprised if they add fishing back as a permanent thing at some point

literally everyone loved it

[fresh zephyr]

Probably depends on their actual user stats

Since they base a lot of their choices on that

[sharp osprey]

yeah, like with srl
srl was the shit

[fresh zephyr]

If they saw a lot of people playing with fishing, they’ll probably bring it back at some point

Yeaaah I liked SRL

Super unique activity

[sharp osprey]

skimmer racing league??? hmmmmm

[fresh zephyr]

[sharp osprey]

side note: they better put a skimmer in solstice

[fresh zephyr]

They do that, then make Nimbus the announcer

[sharp osprey]

make skimmers a holiday event tradition

[fresh zephyr]

I think the Solstice stuff is in the API already

[sharp osprey]

really? could i find it on light gg?

[fresh zephyr]

But I haven’t looked at it to see what’s there

Should be there, yeah

[sharp osprey]

all i see is a bow thats marked as classified

aaaaand no skimmer

[fresh zephyr]

They may just have the old weapons and stuff showing right now

Which makes sense I guess

They haven’t shown the armor for this year yet

I wonder when it starts this year

[sharp osprey]

solstice begins august 6

but i'm more excited for festival of the lost cuz of the wizard hats baybeeeeee

literally 10 years in and they finally give the wizard class wizard hats (alongside the other classes too i guess)

[fresh zephyr]

Oh yeah

Forgot about that

They seem like interesting sets

I would’ve preferred the Good Wizard ones, but I’ll probably get it regardless

[sharp osprey]

yeah, but i'm only really interested in the hat so its not that big of a deal

they put those on bright dust, right?

[fresh zephyr]

Tbh, can’t remember

[sharp osprey]

i'm pretty sure they do

i'm gonna go to sleep

[lofty badge]

anyone else wish we could have like a taken combat ally during battle

[fresh zephyr]

Cya

[frozen silo]

random question, is micah-10 transfem or transmasc?

[trim grotto]

We were introduced to Micah Abrams as a young boy writing letters to the Traveler.

[frozen silo]

ah

okie, thank you

I thought that, just got confused because micah is usually a male name from what i know

[errant olive]

Gambit invasions?

[errant olive]

Funnily enough i looked through the book to work that out because there are women with the name Micah asw, i think the only reference I found is young Micah wanting a beard as he grew up. Am i missing something more obvious or...?

[jagged badge]

Micah-10 talks about struggling with her identity as a kid. Her associated weapon out of the Pale Heart weapons is called Embraced Identity too

[fresh zephyr]

Oh that’s her face on the sniper

Cool

[modern lodge]

What are the pale heart weapons btw, who made them?

[jagged badge]

The Traveler I suppose?

I think the idea is they’re based on Cayde’s memories

[modern lodge]

Ty champion

[chrome fog]

Saturn I believe. Or Jupiter, it was a pacifist colony

[trim grotto]

Dialogue from one of Micah's parents (lost exo dialogue) implies Micah was male, atop of the beard thing

[trim grotto]

"Outer system".

[fresh zephyr]

Do we have any lore book about interactions between a warlock and a crayon eating titan?

[jagged badge]

Yeah, any lore book about Osiris and Saint

[errant olive]

bored doing revision so made this

i can't use gimp well so it doesn't look that good

[jagged badge]

[stark fjord]

Omg that layout

It’s giving me exam ptsd

[errant olive]

i am currently in ptsd

last exam and it's my least favourite subject by a mile

[graceful tide]

how is Savathun still alive?

[trim grotto]

Having a Ghost does tend to assist with that.

She was resurrected at the end of Season of the Witch.

[safe galleon]

so sav is like, very open about her intent to break our truce the second she doesnt have to upkeep it, right? she alludes to going back to chasing her own agenda at a couple points

[cedar walrus]

How come there were no Vex at the final battle

[glacial lake]

Yeah for eris to spawn kill her. Did they just let her revive again cause the power of friendship or something?

[trim grotto]

There was.

[cedar walrus]

against the witness

[glacial lake]

Why would the vex fight against the witness?

[cedar walrus]

I know Sol-Divisive is different

but aren't there any Vex that are friendly to our cause

[glacial lake]

Their main purpose is to survive, and it was looking like the witness was gonna win

[frigid sparrow]

She's not stupid enough to keep fucking around

[cedar walrus]

after all there was taht thread with Asher Mir

[trim grotto]

The Vex can't even comprehend paracausality. Walking into the paracausal god of Light to stop a paracausal god of Darkness from using paracausality to halt the universe isn't going to go well - particularly when we can't even really talk to them.

[blazing wasp]

Shes open about stuff she thinks is benefitial for her to be open about

[glacial lake]

Tldr: The Vex are stupid tier whores

[blazing wasp]

the thing with vex is that they're really simple, but also complex

which doesnt make a whole lot of sense

[trim grotto]

We kept Immaru as collateral. Reviving Savathûn was the deal from the start.

[frigid sparrow]

During the Queens mission when we do fight her, she retreats instead of trying to pull something because she needs us for the final battle with the witness, and she wants to be there for the final battle with the witness. With it gone, she now seeks control over the pale heart, with the scattered forces of a broken down enemy

[safe galleon]

my point is, she's clearly not going to stay amicable with us

and if that's the case, why don't we just like, yknow

[blazing wasp]

Oh yeah shes deffo gonna be a future enemy but we have larger fish to fry

[safe galleon]

squish the stress ball?

[frigid sparrow]

(or, at least, she wants something from the pale heart, that she doesn't want us having)

[glacial lake]

Yeah well now there's a power vacuum and savathun has no reason not to try and kill us. Why didn't they just kill Immaru after Eris killed Savathun?

[blazing wasp]

That may escalate something we dont wanna escalate in a period we really dont wanna go to war with someone else

[safe galleon]

fair enough i suppose

[glacial lake]

I get it's to keep Savathun around as an antagonist for later but I mean realistically from the vanguard

[blazing wasp]

we've just beaten the witness, and we're weakened as a force, xivu is probably making a move soon, and suddenly waging war on savathun on top of that?

[glacial lake]

I doubt Xivu has anywhere near as much power to fight savathun at the moment

The best thing for Xivu to do rn is just sit and wait.

[blazing wasp]

No, but she may have the ability to fight us.

and if we declare war on savathu, thats the perfect moment for xivu to strike

[glacial lake]

I think someone we really need to look after now is Nezarec

[frigid sparrow]

Xivu still has mega power right now, it's just that she can't get and of the power related to her throne world

[blazing wasp]

she was weakened too

because she fled

however

it is worth noting that this wont make her "weak"

[glacial lake]

With Rhulk out of the picture, Nezarec looks to be the strongest deciple who's still around.

[blazing wasp]

when we fought oryx in the raid i believe he was actively fucking starving to death

[glacial lake]

If anyone could fill the power vacuum, it's him

[blazing wasp]

or at least really weakened

and oryx still put up one hell of a fight