📚lore-discussion

[chrome fog]

AI is shit without permissions from the sources it draws from. At the very least a search engine literally gives you the relative source, AI just pulls without proper accreditation

[fresh zephyr]

I meant AI as more of a commodity, having the story told to you by someone instead of having to read

It being in the original voice just adds to the experience

Im finding it really hard to see any point in your opinion

[chrome fog]

The biggest generative AI developers have been caught on multiple cases to be drawing from sources they do not have permission to utilize and it seems like they have no intent to seek it out

Fuck AI

Do the shit yourself, commission the individual to do the voice work

Support of AI as it is now only enables poor practice and etiquette

There are individuals already making audio readings of lore entries either out of their own interest or by commission

If you want to run a shitty simulcra of a celebrity’s voice then whatever, but it should not be implemented as a proper feature of the game

Or also just read

[fresh zephyr]

I never said it should be implemented as a game feature, I meant that it's more community-made, but you seem to have something against AI in general, so let's just stop

[chrome fog]

Vagueness to allow for projection of the player unto the avatar

[lofty badge]

[slim elk]

On the part of the player guardian name...
The weird thing is we do have a canonical title that can be the "go to" (Young Wolf)

But Bungie doesn't use it

[chrome fog]

What the fuck does Saladin call us then

Our titles have been used

[slim elk]

Exactly
But then you have Zavala go "The Guardian"

We have distinct title that can be used and isn't completely generic from a respected Guardian leader
Why is it inconsistently used?

[chrome fog]

Not every Guardian will be a Young Wolf or whatever title that they have earned, but every Guardian will be a Guardian. And voicing more lines for differing titles as wel as the code to check what titles a player has is more effort than regarding all as “The Guardian”

Common sense

It’s why the veteran dialogue has been phased out

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd2LeFnJGU&pp=ygUfRGVzdGlueSAyIGNhbHVzIHNoYWRvdyBkaWFsb2d1ZQ%3D%3D

Again
The thing I'm pointing out is how inconsistent Bungie is on this

"Phased out" veteran dialogue
Then slaps this in from a D2 seasonal title

[chrome fog]

Tell me how many titles are available as of now

[slim elk]

Exactly
Yet still do stuff like this

[chrome fog]

Tell me how many

[slim elk]

Trying to lure me into a bad argument there 😝

[chrome fog]

Because this is a bad argument

The inconsistency is due to the numerous amount of titles and varying combinations players could be holding

To account for each and every possible combination for just a bit of dialogue is arduous

[slim elk]

As said before, just confused why not use the "go to" title that isn't completely generic.

Seen it happen from seasonal dialogue referring to the Young Wolf even when Player in question didn't do the Rise of Iron dlc

[chrome fog]

They put it where they can but it’s not going to be consistent because why the fuck would they be able to keep all that in mind when they have a catch all term

[slim elk]

I ain't saying use all the titles.
I'm just saying pick one that isn't utterly generic lol

[chrome fog]

The baseline title they can use is “The Guardian” and all others may or may not be earned by all guardians by the time they reach that point in the narrative

This is a stupid issue that isn’t an issue at all

They just pick and choose some titles to be referred to

But most of the time they’re going to default to “The Guardian” because it’s the universally applicable title

How is this hard to grasp

Every single instance of the player will have been a Lightbearer sided to the Vanguard, making them a Guardian, and their fame will make them “The Guardian”

If they can they will try to fit dialogue fitting to the situation like the video does but it’s not feasible for them to account for more than a handful at a time

[gentle geyser]

Hello The Guardian

[analog inlet]

The first comment

“To further elaborate”

Is this true?

If so thats fucking scary

[slim elk]

It is, watch the reactions of the people in the scene

[analog inlet]

So it wasnt just a vision?

I thought it was a vision

[slim elk]

Nope. It happened

[analog inlet]

Lmfao bro AM I JUST REALIZING IT?

What

WHAT

THATS FUCKING SCARY AS SHIT

DAWG

DUDE ACTUALLY DID IT

TRAVELER WAS LIKE NAH THIS SHAPE AINT FINAL

😭😭😭😭😭😭

bruhhhhh

[slim elk]

And now your realizing the next issue awaiting us

[analog inlet]

Nah i got everything else i just didnt know this happened

[slim elk]

The Witness did all the hard work, there's little to stop someone picking up where it left off

Like say... Savathun

[analog inlet]

Power vaccum

[slim elk]

Or the Vex

[analog inlet]

I do have a gut feeling, but i feel like xivu might be the one whos gonna go for it

[slim elk]

Savathuns already pulling it. That's what her antics are about in the adventure missions

[analog inlet]

I dont think savathun will go for that throne cuz for 1 reason, the cutscene where savathun recites that guardian tenet and dies infront of the traveler

[analog inlet]

Wait what?

Trll me more

Im actually not playing d2

Cuz i cant devote enough time to it

So im keeping up thru livestreams and yt videos

[slim elk]

Think about it.
Why is she backstabbing us and having the Lucent Hive still be hostile in the Pale Heart while the Witness is active?

[analog inlet]

Oh

I mean yeah…

[slim elk]

And remember
Immaru is one stress ball away from us wrecking Savathun

[analog inlet]

True

Why cant we kill immaru

[slim elk]

We have Immaru hostage explicitly to stop Savathun pulling shit like this

[analog inlet]

We killed the witness

[analog inlet]

I have a feeling savathun might have another trick regarding this for sure

If she doesnt then she isnt savathun

[gentle geyser]

If we destroyed immaru this sh it wouldn’t be a problem

[analog inlet]

She always does that annoying sneaky shit

[analog inlet]

Thats what i said g

[slim elk]

So of Savathuns still pulling shit..
She may have figured out another way to keep the light besides Immaru

[gentle geyser]

I said it cooler

[slim elk]

||Like how Cayde revived ghost with his light||

[chrome fog]

Kinda the point considering she had her whole world flipped by the end of Witch Queen; not to mention she’s aware of the asset we are as godkillers and whatever, so having us as a handy tool is useful

[analog inlet]

Mine is a question not a suggestion that we do it, theres something going on def

[analog inlet]

Man this shit is so conditional aaahhhgg

[analog inlet]

I actually sobbed at the end when cayde revived the ghost

[slim elk]

Like i said. We probably gave Savathun a way to keep the Light even if Immaru fulfills his destiny as a stress ball

[analog inlet]

Could be… one thing is for sure, savathun thing hasnt ended, i bet all i have that there will be some sort of an encounter with savathun, a mission, to stop her from smthn

[slim elk]

Already was lol
Mission in the Pale heart has Savathun personally show and lure us into doing some sort of ritual

Throwing a bunch of Elemental orbs at hive runes

[analog inlet]

I didnt watch the dlc gameplay properly but damn did i skip that much💀

Hmm

Also

The witness explicitly mentions that he aint the winnower

Hes the first knife

Do u think we will ever encounter the winnower

I think nah

[slim elk]

The Winnower has already been seen.
It's currently hosting Neomuna over on the meta verse

[analog inlet]

Im under the impression that thr winnower is just another entity that is formless and is basically darkness that works thru the darkness logic bla bla bla

[analog inlet]

What do u mean 💀💀

[slim elk]

The Veil

[analog inlet]

Thats not the winnower

[slim elk]

Have you forgotten how many names the Traveler has? Lol

[analog inlet]

How can that be the winnower

[analog inlet]

Its called the gardener

And all that

Ik

But byf’s video suggests other wise

Idk whst to be sure of

[slim elk]

And what makes a giant white orb the Gardener?

[analog inlet]

The acts of “gardening” “adding complexity”

“Life”

[chrome fog]

Tf you talking about

[analog inlet]

Basically talking abt the veil

[chrome fog]

The Winnower has only been mentioned in Unveiling and the raid

No I know

[analog inlet]

And by the witness as well

During the raid

[slim elk]

Remember
The Witness learned how to use the darkness from the Veil

If anything connected to the Winnower, it's sitting in Neomuna

[chrome fog]

You want Mael’s word on it?
#📚lore-discussion message

Winnower ain’t nothing at the moment

[analog inlet]

match this

to what i said

here

[analog inlet]

this

[chrome fog]

Only reason you could point to the Veil is because they are counterparts to the Gardener/Traveler respectively

[analog inlet]

yeah

[chrome fog]

Yet Unveiling is itself a metaphor

Like I said, a wojak meme for itself and the Traveler’s ideals

[analog inlet]

now

on the record, the light vs dark saga is over

[slim elk]

The part of the debate goes back to the "Wager"

Clearly the Witness never did a wager with the Gardener

[chrome fog]

No shit

[slim elk]

But as Winnower is confirmed to be separate entity now.
That Wager might still be in play

[chrome fog]

Or again

[analog inlet]

people who dont play destiny would be crying and puling their hair out over this lore channel as to wtf is this shit, we only know hovering bikes boards and floating and jumpy armor space magic dudes and a big moon in the sky

[chrome fog]

The Winnower could be entirely fictional

[analog inlet]

what i understand of the WINNOWER is that, its just a governing body of law, a force that effects a universe

like the gardener

[chrome fog]

There has been nothing confirming the Winnower as a real being, and to the information we have available the most likely answer is that the Winnower is entirely made up, meant to embody the ideals the Witness put up against the Travelers

[slim elk]

Nah.
The Witness is a race of mortals who joined up to try and fuck over the universe

[chrome fog]

Unlike the Gardener, who has the Traveler’s actions applied to it

[analog inlet]

WINNOER ******* my bad

[chrome fog]

That’s what it tried to present itself as, as doing the inevitablec yes

Again, Thanos moment

[analog inlet]

and we all know what happened to thanos

bro this is so similar

thanos wanted to create a perfect universe and so did witness XD

[chrome fog]

Because it’s a poignant message in these times where nihilistic pessimism is rampant

[analog inlet]

guardians to the witness : witness this ratio intense random bullshit go insane light fart beam

[gentle geyser]

If the winnower actually exists and ever ends up being a villain, the fuck we supposed to do lol

[chrome fog]

Kill it again

We have access to the Pale Heart

[gentle geyser]

Took a mission, a raid, and a 12 player activity to take down the witness within a plain of pure light

[chrome fog]

Imagine what we could do in the Witness’ place

To a massive threat such as the Winnower should it exist

[gentle geyser]

I just personally think its better to leave behind the winnower stuff for now

Maybe if we get a destiny 3 but thats if we get one

[chrome fog]

I think it’s fairly clear the Winnower is fictional

[gentle geyser]

I agree but then there are people saying the raid dialogue confirms hes real

[chrome fog]

There’s an opportunity for a “idea come to life” story beat in that by communing with the Veil, the Witness imprented the idea of a Winnower to exist, but we have time

[slim elk]

There's also the memory of the traveler dialogue that's goes back to Unveiling again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSCF_0wcZCY

[gentle geyser]

The traveler is the gardener, its a more concrete and proven existence

Plus if the winnower is real, why haven’t they acted

[lofty badge]

Is Immaru back with Savathun? given if i recall the vanguard had him in costudy after season of the witch

[chrome fog]

He’s with us

Still

[slim elk]

Could ask the same question why the Gardener refuses to communicate directly even when the Witness is directly in system

[lofty badge]

huh

so...good time to kill him since Savathun is again in open war with us?

[gentle geyser]

Honestly, from the visions, Id say it doesn’t necessarily understand how to communicate normally

[slim elk]

Yep
Savathun may have averted that weakness though

[gentle geyser]

Aside from a few instances

[lofty badge]

O.o Oh shit how?

[slim elk]

Remember what Cayde pulled to revive Ghost?

[lofty badge]

yeah sacfrcing his own light

[gentle geyser]

Unlikely

[slim elk]

And Savathun luring us to do a ritual while rambling on about preparing for the "next game"?

[gentle geyser]

If she did we would have gotten a line about destroying immaru

Which we didn’t

Its just us being stupid to make sav look smart

[slim elk]

I think that ritual probably made it Savathun got another way to get light besides Immaru

Cayde showed it be possible

[lofty badge]

🤔 that would be conerning ye

mabye she sacfriced her own lucent brood

like we are killing them daily atm

[gentle geyser]

Theres no proof of this yet

[lofty badge]

true true

just thorzing

[slim elk]

Keyword
"Yet"

[gentle geyser]

Again, we didn’t destroy immaru, so its just us being dumb

[lofty badge]

yee

also how did such a large group of lucent hive manage to sneak onbored the very pyramid ships that the Witness teleported into the traveler

before the portal was fully open for everyone to venture trough

given Luzaku came with that group of Lucent hive

[chrome fog]

Where does it say that this season

[lofty badge]

the quests right after we first wound the witness

Savathun is openly leading her brood against us

tho there it is more to test us

[gentle geyser]

There isn’t, they just did somehow, bungie just wanted to use lucent hive

[lofty badge]

but with the witness death Crow did say there are lucent hive fighting for control of the pale heart

[lofty badge]

ah

[slim elk]

It is clear that Savathun has much more Intel then we do

[chrome fog]

They stowed-away on a Pyramid in Sav’s order, then decided to do whatever. The Hive Lightbearer tells you this.

[slim elk]

Ergo that adventure with Mara having to Take the player to see what Savathun was already messing with

[lofty badge]

yeah i was wondering if they did the same as Luzaku but it is also mention it is the brood she broke away from

[lofty badge]

yeah she was the cloest to the witness than her sibblings for thousands of years

[slim elk]

It's a combo
The initial brood is probably Luzakus

[lofty badge]

then Savathun arrives later with renforcements

[slim elk]

Then Savathun brings in reinforcements once Mara and the others show

[gentle geyser]

Every single faction is in the pale heart gameplay wise right? How the fuck do the lucent hive just show up everywhere and somehow out number like three of the faction there

[lofty badge]

it is also mentioned in one of the lost ghost quests that most of Savathun's brood are in the pale heart

leaving the defenses of her throne world not as big

[slim elk]

Never underestimate Hive breeding rates apparently lol

[lofty badge]

i honestly don't know, the witness aligned factions honestly should have a bigger foothold

[lofty badge]

yeah that too

they endless buggers

[slim elk]

Another fun fact:
Savathun intentionally spared the Player Guardian to continue her plans

[lofty badge]

tho mabye savathun also uses necromancy she learned from her newphew (nokris) to raise her dead brood

(the non guardians)

[lofty badge]

or she knew we were gonna kill her again

🤔

[slim elk]

It really amused me when back in Witch Queen she must have fired us out of a cannon to get us back on Mars

[lofty badge]

lol

[slim elk]

This was after the first mission and the first showing of her throne world

She does that threadbound trap..
Next cutscene is Player back on Mars face down with a debris trail in the Martian soil

[lofty badge]

ye

[slim elk]

Ghost:
"I will never say what happened"

[lofty badge]

hue

also with the witness dead think the rest of the scorn are back under Fikrul's control?

or will be when revenant arrives?

[slim elk]

Scorn ate still following Witness last orders

Might be part of the Episode where Fikrul is trying to grab them back

[lofty badge]

got cha

wonder if the scorn under the witness can raise more scorn now with the witness gone

not counting Fikrul

[heavy ivy]

What is the name of the faction of the old Awoken who wished to leave the Distributary?

[fresh zephyr]

I thought it was confirmed in the raid that the Winnower exists?

[analog torrent]

Was Yor killed before or after Six Fronts?

[errant olive]

The Eccaleists

[heavy ivy]

Thank you 🫡 🫡 🫡

[errant olive]

the lore buffs explain this better from this point @fresh zephyr

[fresh zephyr]

?

[errant olive]

go to the message i linked

[fresh zephyr]

So it's confirmed that the Witness answered to something that it refers to as the Winnower

Huh.....

[errant olive]

it's not confirmed that the Winnower is an person, it may be how the Witness perceives the Veil

It's too vague to confirm that the Winnower is indeed real or not

[fresh zephyr]

So is the Gardener real?

[chrome fog]

The Traveler has been called the Gardener, so yes

[chrome fog]

It calls itself a “First Blade of the Winnower” or smth but that could just be it being edgy

It’s not substantial enough to confirm the true existence of a Winnower entity outside of an allegorical figure that the Witness associated some of its values to

I’m gonna be saying this a bit, but Unveiling in its entirety is more comparable to a… comparison meme, like a wojak, and is meant to present the Witness’ ideals as “natural”, “inevitable”, and “the right way to Salvation” whilst the Gardener/Traveler is overly optimistic and naive, which it is but it’s better that than someone who wants to hijack your life because it believes it knows best for you

[analog torrent]

nvm I got it
Yor killed Pahanin, who survived the Vault of Glass, which he entered with his fireteam after Ironsbane, which took place after Six Fronts. So Yor died way after Six Fronts.

[safe galleon]

are exos truly chronologically immortal? as in, they will never die unless by damage/injury? or does the system they run on moreso just extend their 'expiration date' some incomprehensibly long amount of time (like, upwards of thousands/hundreds of thousands of years)

[trim grotto]

Alkahest, as it turns out, is also a power source.
But even prior to that, they had a 10,000 year battery, and hypothetically their data could be erased by solar radiation after thousands of years... but if we ever repair Eternity and the backup systems, we can make backups of their Exominds as replacements if need be.

[eager trout]

Why are the no Stasis or Strand energy slot weapons but there are Stasis and Strand kinetic slot weapons?

[mental meadow]

Uuh

Gameplay reasons

Lore ain't explaining that I don't think

[trim grotto]

Because otherwise you would have five different weapon elements in one slot and one in the other.

It's just gameplay.

[coral pelican]

Why do tormentors show up during the coral vex missions? Is the reason obvious

Or is it no clear reason/ just for gameplay reasons

[ember storm]

I don’t think it’s directly mentioned but I imagine it’s because shadow legion are looking into it themselves and without a boss, tormentors and other such dread are just tagging along with actual people who can give them orders

[fast tapir]

they are now freelancers

[coral pelican]

Okay I figured. With the Witness gone can any more of the Tormentors be made or can they be wiped out essentially from now on

[ember storm]

#📚lore-discussion message

[coral pelican]

Ah okay

[eager trout]

Imagine a Guardian giving a Dread an order and the Dread being like "sure, why not" because it didn't have any superiors

[coral pelican]

I want a rideable dread. Screw Skimmers

[ember storm]

Only one of them is remotely animalistic and it’s still an upright creature

[modern lodge]

Oversized grim as a vehicle

[deft phoenix]

Bruh

[modern lodge]

Big bat

[fast tapir]

personally id enjoy a mega-shank to ride around on

[deft phoenix]

Just got cayde back😐

🫡

[empty fern]

Really like how failsafe can’t quite perceive the dread, lovely detail

[coral pelican]

I enjoy that too

[modern lodge]

Loving fail-safes new dialogue

[coral pelican]

I’ve heard people compare it to Nimbus cringe. But i disagree heavily

[fast tapir]

oh god no

not even close

[empty fern]

It’s definitely a millennial generation (she’s even got a plant collection)

[fast tapir]

ill take the worst failsafe dialogue over the best nimbus dialogue

[empty fern]

Actually

Failsafe during this episode (or her entire career) reminds me of uhhhh

https://tenor.com/view/uzi-uzi-doorman-uzidoorman-murder-drones-murderdrones-gif-17008346186539794352

MD kind of personality

[ornate pike]

Does anyone else kinda dislike how they portrayed Zavala finally not being a wuss about anything darkness related as him immediately going over bored and it results it targe's death?
It's not even to take the 9/10 story down by even a point to me but it's a little strange

[chrome fog]

It is strange circumstances and at a dire moment

And as sudden it seems, he has been having crises over his faith in the Traveler for a while

[iron mortar]

so does this make the veil the winnower?

[dim minnow]

well...

you gotta account for the fact that the Traveler and Veil were most likely one entity at a previous point

[iron mortar]

coolest reveal in final shape was that ||These statues are just the corpses/statues of the witness's race||

[dim minnow]

like the Traveler is very likely to be an incomplete Gardener

with the Veil being the missing piece

[chrome fog]

No because again, Unveiling is a hit piece meant to critique the Traveler’s ideals whilst making the Witness’ look good

PhotObama I see that react

[chrome fog]

The nature of Unveiling as a work within the universe means we cannot wholly rely on it to be entirely truthful about the existence of the Gardener and Winnower. Very clearly the Gardener is a stand-in for the Traveler and the Winnower is tangential to the Witness’ views but not totally parallel. The Veil we have no idea if it has a will or not

[tropic swift]

why are voidwalkers seen as "vampiric"?

and what class of hunter is like the most terrifying in lore

[trim grotto]

Because Devour used to be a Warlock only ability.

[trim grotto]

As for this... it's... subjective? I suppose Revenant or Nightstalker.

[tropic swift]

I mean what does devour do to enemies? Why is it seen as horrific

[trim grotto]

The main thing about the Void is that it used to be seen as Darkness adjacent back when we didn't even know what Darkness was

So there are bits and bobs of old lore calling Void questionable

[tropic swift]

But devour is a thing, so what does it do I know it heals but why

[trim grotto]

It just does
There isn't a particularly in depth coverage of Devour and how it specifically works other than Feast on the energy of your defeated foes.

Actually, you could put the logic of the Mask of the Quiet One to Devour, I suppose.

—Satomi, Architect of the Mask```

[broken zephyr]

So what the deal with Ergo Sum?
What's the story the lore page is telling?

[dim minnow]

you know, I don't think I've read it yet

maybe I have and I just forgotten

[broken zephyr]

It seems like it's written from the perspective of the Traveler if anything

[safe galleon]

the Traveler's story

"You are a child waking from a long and dreamless sleep. Is it still today, or have you slept into tomorrow (and tomorrow, and tomorrow, until the days buried you as much as the sand)? Gentle hands brush away the grains, but your voice is so soft that they cannot hear you over the sound of their own heartbeats."

it being found by the witness's species, in the season of the deep origin cutscene we see that it is partially buried and presumably had been for some indeterminately long stretch of time

"You are a moon. You feel heavy, so heavy, but to the stargazer you hang weightless in the sky. When the stargazers call out, you do not answer. They would give themselves up for you; abandon their own dreams to chase you. You love them too much to condemn them so."

referring to how the species the traveler resides in proximity to eventually attempt to extrapolate some kind of meaning or purpose from it; the witness, guardians often assigning some kind of motive to the traveler or looking to it for answers, etc. etc.

"You are a lighthouse keeper. You are watching over a sleepy coastal village as the storm clouds roll in, and you are flashing the signal lantern, faster and faster and brighter and brighter, but they do nothing. You are trapped on an island, in a tower, signaling desperately that It is coming, and still they do not run. They are going to die—and if you do not run, you will die too.

You are leaning out over the ocean. Sometimes the fish brush against your fingers and believe that they have felt the divine; sometimes the tide recedes, and the fish do not know you except by your absence. And today, you strive with all your might to reach the water, because It is here, the great dark shadow of the shark parting the water like a knife, and you cannot warn them, but you must. You must try. You cannot bear to lose even one more."

seems to be about its time on earth; i believe the 'fish' are humanity. the word choice of 'fingers' seems very deliberate here as micah-10 states that the creation of the ghosts felt like 'losing fingers' or something akin to that. also explains the line about 'feeling the divine.' could also be that the 'fish' are speakers or otherwise people with a natural affinity for the light? not sure

[broken zephyr]

I thought as much

[dim minnow]

oh yeah, I have read it

yep, definitely Traveler stuff

reads out like a Dream of Alpha Lupi

[safe galleon]

"You are carrying a tower of books. If you recited one title each second, you would not finish before the heat death of the universe. And every year, every day, every minute, Its hands add more to the pile. A man reaches for one of the books, for you, and you want so very badly to reach back, to take his hand and tell him that you must bear it just like he must, forever, the memory engraved in quartz—but your hands are full."

i'm not sure what to make of this one. "It" seems to be the witness? maybe the 'tower of books' is referring to all the species it's had to leave behind? it would make some sense with "it" adding more books to the traveler's hands. it is the one thing it's constantly made the traveler do, after all

"You are a prisoner. The cage is so small that you can barely breathe. He screams at you to share your gift. You would not give it to anyone who thought of it so. It is a burden, a terrible weight that you have already asked too many to bear, to be crushed by. You could say all this, and more. You do not."

this is obviously about ghaul, but i'm not sure if ghaul is the same 'man' referred to in the previous paragraph.

"You are reaching over a chasm, into which countless paths feed like arteries. You are trying to reach the people on the other side, but you cannot bridge the gap alone. You watch them turn, one after another, to walk down, down, down into the abyss, until It consumes them entirely. You are as surprised as anyone else when one of those wanderers comes back up the path, still reeking of decay, and reaches back to you."

prooobably about the portal? before savathun's wish, anyone who tried to go through would get discombobulated and junk. so i assume this is about crow and ourselves breaking through and bridging the gap. would make sense with the whole 'other side' phrasing

"You are drowning. The water roils, dragging you down, and you are tired, so tired. The deep, dark ocean has gotten into your lungs, droplets of ink dispersing in silver blood. This time, you think, this time It has won. But when you look up, you see a figure diving toward you, fighting their way down through the suffocating waves, reaching out just like you've reached out to them, so many times before."

the witness corrupting the pale heart, and trying to exert its control over the traveler (as well as the player guardian ascending to challenge it)

"You have so little strength left, but you do have it, that last gasp of air in your chest. You reach back—and in your hand is a sword."

the traveler providing us the sword in the final fight

[trim grotto]

It may be about Guardians turning to Darkness... but returning to the Traveler and the Light all the same.

[frail berry]

That's how I'd interpret it.

Potentially the Dredgens specifically, with the one who returned being Shin Malphur?

[heavy ivy]

Where specifically do these define Paracausality?

[trim grotto]

The short answer is as Seth laid out in the Near Failure State Codes, which I will free from its context for you

Linear physics cause to effect, causal
Parallel system cause to effect, paracausal - literally, parallel causality
No known connection of cause to effect, acausal

We are paracausal as there is logic and flow to our power and these powers in general, but it sure ain't physics as we know it

[broken relic]

You think with the aesthetics of the guns this season we'll get an answer to where the vex mythoclast came from

[trim grotto]

I don't, but it would be interesting.

[chrome fog]

I think these excerpts outline it pretty well, but Mael also gave a pretty succinct explanation (also snuck in some of the Truth to Power discussion there because I think it’s also good reading considering we’re trying to frame how Paracausality is defined much like Jalaal and Ikora are debating the purpose of Truth to Power)

[heavy ivy]

Would it just mean that it is something that, if we use the definition of "para-" which usually gets used in "paralell universe", then this would be a power system which is the same system as cause and effect in some important way?

[hollow drum]

the fact it has nothing addressing when rasputin shot it down is crazy

[chrome fog]

Because he didn’t

[hollow drum]

oh i thought that was like an actual thing

[fresh zephyr]

I took the bit about someone coming back from decay as being about Savathun.

Since the ‘death and decay’ bit only really fits the Hive

[cold onyx]

are all the raids part of the overall story of D1/2 including reprisals

[acoustic trail]

what are throne worlds?

[rich veldt]

no, raspy had the protocols to do so cause clovis, but it never got to the point of him firing at the ball, at most i think the protocol has only ever been activated but never fulfilled

[next bobcat]

Can anyone here show me the full new raid armor set on titan?

[fresh zephyr]

anyone got a translation table on Rasputin protocols, such as midnight exigent etc

nevermind

I just cant read

there's an entire section on the wiki, explaining it

[frigid sparrow]

Been thinking about savathuns truths and lies again. "Insight" and "Pact" seem to be completely filled out with the two truths and two lies thing. "Choice" is still rather up in the air due to many things still being probabilities (hive not being the last chosen by light, traveler falling, although you can argue the traveler is not gonna fall, but that leaves the other options in a very interesting standstill). However, the last one, "Catalyst," has some pretty interesting ones.
The Enigma is one key to defeating the Witness
The Witness seeks the Final Shape, which is nothing
The Last City is not the last city
The Witness will build its army on Mars
With the witness now gone, I wonder... What are the two truths and lies? I don't believe the witness built any army on Mars, and we now have neomuna and the lost city, the final shape wasn't necessarily "nothing" since it was a means to bring meaning to a meaningless universe (quite the opposite of nothing), but, in this case... How would the enigma (the pyramid blade) be one key to defeating the witness? Would it be something to do with our bonding of the darkness using deepsight and the the relic on Mars?

[sharp osprey]

"the last city is not the last city" is clearly one of the truths cuz of neomuna, and by process of elimination the other one would have had to be the enigma one

the key is that Savathun doesn't say that the enigma is THE key, but ONE key

let me check out those other ones real quick, i've forgotten

Pact is interesting

Osiris is clearly not dead and the Witness clearly did not create the Darkness

so that means Savathun is dead (which was true at that moment in time) and "Your Destiny lies beyond the Solar System" are the truths

Frontiers moment

Choice is also interesting

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, frontiers is what confirmed that

Well, basically confirmed it lol

My question was really just how the enigma specifically was a key

[sharp osprey]

"The Hive are not the last to be chosen by the Light" seems to be one of the truths by process of elimination

[sharp osprey]

cuz of enclave stuff i suppose

[frigid sparrow]

Like I guess I'd have to see how we first go through unlocking the enclave stuff

[sharp osprey]

that part feels like a bit of a rewrite

[frigid sparrow]

Savathun herself says "the pyramid blade is one key to defeating the witness"

[sharp osprey]

i'm not sure

but looking at the two truths and two lies, Choice's implications with current lore are very interesting

"The Traveler will leave"
"The Traveler will fall"
"The Traveler is not the only one of its kind"
"The Hive are not the last to be chosen by the Light"

[frigid sparrow]

Choice is one where there's still a lot up in the air

[sharp osprey]

2 and 3 are probably the lies

cuz the traveler did leave, but it just didnt go that far

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, that's something that's been "established" for a while

[sharp osprey]

but then the other truth is then that the hive are not the last to be chosen by the light

[frigid sparrow]

And we've prevented the traveler from falling by its biggest threat

[sharp osprey]

Eliksni and Cabal Guardians confirmed?

[frigid sparrow]

(though who's to say it's not gonna fall later)

The eliksni were already chosen by the light so I wouldn't count that as it being a truth even if we do get eliksni guardians

[sharp osprey]

wait a minute

[frigid sparrow]

Although, I guess the krill were supposed to be chosen? Although they're not the same as the hive, but..

[sharp osprey]

1 and 4 could both be referring to Frontiers

what if we go with the traveler to bless the universe

[frigid sparrow]

I personally feel like frontiers is gonna lead us into cleaning up the messes left behind by light and dark

[fast tapir]

strictly its terraforming capabilities right?

[hollow drum]

the witness’ defeat marked the end of the light and dark saga im pretty sure were leaving thaf behind and just doing side quests atp

[sharp osprey]

i just mean general traveler blessing stuff, either via lightbearers or terraforming or both

[frigid sparrow]

Riis, Torobotl, Lubrae (the blog post before rhulk was added to pantheon was sus as FUCK), and then idk maybe one of drifter's planets to lead into the nine and their story

[sharp osprey]

and, entirely new worlds not established before

[hollow drum]

is lubrae not destroyed

[fresh zephyr]

*A tip for all the newbies in lore. If you give Chat GPT the description of Rasputins protocols (which you can find on the Destinypedia wiki), GPT can give a very good summation of each lore entry from Rasputin, without you having to dig around on YT, for entries ( example is from Ghost Fragment : Rasputin 3)

[fast tapir]

im really hoping for something on the nine

a whole episode on them would be amazing

[sharp osprey]

episode nine lol

[fast tapir]

oh god

[frigid sparrow]

In the twid announcing rhulk being added into pantheon, Bungie sorta maybe hinted and teased some Lubrae stuff with some ships being sent out to observe the planet and rhulk being the "last-known" Lubraean

[hollow drum]

did the secret ishtar icon from starcrossed basically solidify this episode’s villain as maya sundaresh

[frigid sparrow]

I'm thinking either Maya or Otzot

Otzot got some teasing with the Micah ghost missions and with the shadow legion being in a weird place it'd make sense for her to gain relevance later down the line

But Maya also makes sense because we know about her vex simulations so this could be a sorta parallel to the witness with them coming together with the echo to be some super simulation vex or some shit like that

[hollow drum]

what does otzot have with the ishtar collective

[frigid sparrow]

Otzot is less with Ishtar and more with the vex network

[fast tapir]

"Hidden cipher-sequences buried in the symbols throughout have been decrypted by a pioneering Cryptarch, thanks to countless fireteams keeping the way clear. The solved sequence is believed to be astronomical coordinates to Lubrae. (Probe dispatched… awaiting arrival.)"

i see i see

very interesting

[frigid sparrow]

We know Otzot uses the oxa future seeing machine

Which we learn about in insight terminus

Future war cult used a similar future sight machine that was vex tech

But that's just my slightly insane ramblings

[willow dagger]

@trim grotto what did drifter do to his ghost? And why?

[dim minnow]

Drifter was stuck on an icy planet with her and she snapped

which led to her telling Drifter to kill the other Ghosts who were stuck on that planet

so Drifter kills them and grafts their parts onto his own Ghost which allowed him to see into "other spectrums of Light"

which allowed him to trap the mysterious Light draining creatures there

[frigid sparrow]

Wait lmao I don't remember his ghost snapping

[dim minnow]

yeah she kinda lost it

so anyways, the result was that his Ghost got a red eye which can be switched back to blue, but she can't talk anymore

also seems to be very mentally unwell

[fast tapir]

[rose spire]

That's... wow

[fast tapir]

depressed ghost with a depressed guardian

surely a good match!

[rose spire]

[willow dagger]

…

WAT

[dim minnow]

their relationship ws never good

like at all

all those years of Drifter never trusting her along with various incidents like what Lord Dryden did

[willow dagger]

Omg what

A guardian not liking their ghost?! I’ve never heard of that

[sharp osprey]

its not unheard of

[willow dagger]

Exapmin

Explane

Ex- I give up

[sharp osprey]

i mean i cant think of specific examples but it makes sense if you think about it, right

[willow dagger]

How

[sharp osprey]

ghosts and guardians are meant to be life partners essentially

so naturally, some wouldnt get along

[dim minnow]

in general Guardians and Ghosts are supposed to be a storng bond

[willow dagger]

But… frens

[dim minnow]

there was a Guardian named Cyrell who hunted Ghosts

[willow dagger]

Wha-

[dim minnow]

though he wouldn't kill his own despite the fact he chose to sever himself from the Light

[willow dagger]

Whaaa

[dim minnow]

he still considered Strain his friend

[willow dagger]

strain

[dim minnow]

that was the name of Cyrell's Ghost

[willow dagger]

Did the ghost follow him around? Or did it wander?

[sharp osprey]

guardians obviously dont have families (unless they get married and/or adopt kids of course, which is admittedly pretty rare for guardians) so fireteams and ghosts are basically the equivalent, and like in real life, families can sometimes not get along

zavala's family backstory is gut-wrenching by the way

[dim minnow]

Strain was by his side until he went to the darkest reaches of the Reef to sever himself from the Light

the two wouldn't cross paths again until much later when Strain saw that he had a chain made from Dead ghosts

[willow dagger]

That’s so sad!!

[sharp osprey]

we haven't ever seen drifter's ghost, right?

[dim minnow]

there are also two cases where a Ghost refused to ressurect their Guardians

in one case, the Guardian went mad with power and became a Warlord, but was ambushed by the Fallen. His Ghost saw how ruthless he had become and simply left his body there.

[willow dagger]

Queen

[dim minnow]

the other case was a Guardian who was not alright in the head. He was imagining things that weren't there

as if he was in a fantasy world

He even told his Ghost that he believed that the Traveler was some giant egg containing dragons and must be destroyed

he would eventually get himself crushed under a boulder thinking it was a cyclops or something

and his Ghost believed he was too insane to be left alive, so he too left his Guardian behind

[fresh zephyr]

wrong chat mb

[willow dagger]

Do they find new peoples? Or are they just lonely?

[sharp osprey]

i dont think ghosts can rez someone else after they find their guardian

[fresh zephyr]

Ironically, he may have been right about the Traveler having dragons

[sharp osprey]

i think if the ahamkara originated from the traveler they wouldve played a bigger role in the final shape

they might still be a creation of it tho

[trim grotto]

It is cause to effect just like physics is cause to effect yes, but via a method that isn't physics. Instead of causality, it's a parallel system to causality.
The solar flair of a star is caused by the mixing of gasses in the star - Causal
The solar flair in our hands is caused by the manifestation and formation of our Light - Paracausal
The solar flair appearing spontaneously in the Seattle Chinatown district - Acausal, probably. Weird example but hey

[trim grotto]

We've never seen an example of a Ghost finding a new Chosen/Lightbearer. It may not be possible.

[willow dagger]

May I get The Drifters story? But explained like I’m a smol?

[trim grotto]

m'alrighty

let me put on some fantastic and sophisticated music to write to first

Shortly before the... wait, when you say Drifter's Story, are we doing the whole Ghost/icy planet thing, or like.... all of it?

[willow dagger]

ALL OF IT

Wait omg

VC?!?!

[trim grotto]

uh lemme put some footnotes together so i get my order correct first but then sure!

[willow dagger]

YESSS

I’m REdy for THIS

[mental meadow]

@trim grotto damn she really isnt mentioned anywhere

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness had a year in the Traveler, and we came across a whole dungeon filled with their skulls and with their guts lining the walls with a Tormentor who had apparently been assigned to kill them. So if they were in there, they aren’t anymore. Plus we still don’t know what exactly the Traveler even is.

Given the Traveler visions, I suspect its identification with the Gardener is probably inaccurate, since it tells us that it isn’t what we think it is, and we got a glimpse of what probably were the Gardener and the Winnower and the Traveler seemed distinct from them.

[jagged badge]

Ooh I wanna listen too

[dim minnow]

1. Cemaili
2. Yeah this name has not been mentioned once

[sharp osprey]

yeah, i'm dumb, i completely forgot about the ahamkara in the strike

[dim minnow]

other than when Calus yelled it out before his death

[sharp osprey]

isnt she mentioned in the Lightfall preorder lore?

[fresh zephyr]

The CE lore yeah

[sharp osprey]

odd they didnt add those to ishtar

[mental meadow]

yea the only mention is calus death

interesting

[fresh zephyr]

CE lore is pretty much never added

No idea why

[sharp osprey]

cuz it would have to be typed out i guess? i mean they type out other stuff

[willow dagger]

Thank you Orange!

[trim grotto]

you're very welcome Blue

[jagged badge]

Bloo

[mental meadow]

I remember seeing somewhere that our guardian was VIP 1 on the hiddens list, but I cant find anything confirming it
am I trippin

[willow dagger]

[jagged badge]

We’re designated as VIP #2014

A reference to Destiny’s launch year ofc

Oryx is VIP #2015

[mental meadow]

aha ty

do we know who #1 is?

[fresh zephyr]

Probably someone looong dead

[ivory sluice]

Is the traveler just permanently portaled open now?

[fresh zephyr]

Seemingly. Mara and Micah have said it’s been permanently transformed by what the Witness did.

[ivory sluice]

And it just doesn’t want to leave this time for whatever reason?

[fresh zephyr]

It’s only ever left it’s previous planets because it was forced

It stayed on the Witness’ homeworld for ‘eons’ until they drove it off by trying what they did

[ivory sluice]

Ah okay, so light and dark was never at war, they just co existed until the witness forced the dark upon the light.

[fresh zephyr]

We don’t know for sure. The Traveler woke up on the Precursor planet and its memories of before are vague, and it’s heavily implied that the Gardener and the Winnower actually exist. So Unveiling and that conflict may still be in play

The last few raid lore books will probably answer some questions on that front

[ivory sluice]

Okay, and what do the pyramids do now that no one is pushing them in any direction? And why are there multiple pyramids to one traveler?

[fresh zephyr]

But they aren’t unlockable yet

The Pyramids are just ships the Witness’ civilization built.

[ivory sluice]

So what is the physical form of darkness then?

Is that the veil?

[fresh zephyr]

Probably the Veil, yeah

[ivory sluice]

Ahh now it’s all coming together

I’ll have to do research idk what the gardener and winnoer actually mean

[fresh zephyr]

Just look up Unveiling on Ishtar

It explains things

But also keep in mind that it’s not entirely true

[ivory sluice]

Is the byf marathon any good?

I need something podcast like

[fresh zephyr]

Byf puts out pretty good content

Just don’t take everything he says as gospel, but that applies to every lore guy

[ivory sluice]

Since the saga is done, the light and dark loop should be closed now yes?

[fresh zephyr]

We don’t really know

[ivory sluice]

Oh I see

[fresh zephyr]

They’ve left themselves a lot of room on pretty much everything on Light vs Darkness, the Traveler, the Veil etc.

So we don’t have many concrete answers

[ivory sluice]

Interesting, I had thought this was a definitive end.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[fresh zephyr]

It basically wrapped up the Witness’ role in the narrative but that’s about it. And np.

[ivory sluice]

Oh! So light isn’t life and dark isn’t death, light is all life and death, creation and destruction, and dark is control and direction. That’s why the civilization wanted to merge the two, because there is no point in light without direction.

[safe galleon]

the tl;dr is that the light as a force is concerned with all things physical and material, whereas the dark is more concerned with mentality and cognition iirc

[sharp osprey]

is the Veil a "being" in a similar way the traveler is? or is it more of an object

[ivory sluice]

So one is not nullifying or balancing the other, or benefiting the other, they are just two separate things

[sharp osprey]

i think its insinuated that light and darkness are two parts of a whole

[ivory sluice]

And we don’t know what that whole is, or what caused that whole to separate?

[sharp osprey]

i don't want to say halves cuz that implies they are opposites, which the final shape tells us they arent

[sharp osprey]

dont think so

well kind of, the whole would be paracausality in general i think

keep in mind, i am a novice lore person lol

[ivory sluice]

I see. So is there an entity out there right now that is trying to figure out why they are split?

[sharp osprey]

i watch the byf, i read some of the lore

[sharp osprey]

idk, but probably not

[ivory sluice]

So even after this saga, light and dark are irrelevant, we are just trying to stop what we believe are bad guys

[sharp osprey]

light and darkness are not inherently good or evil, they are neutral forces of the universe
there are heroes that wield the light and heroes that wield the darkness, and vice versa

in order to kill the witness, we had to embrace the darkness and use the traveler's light to destroy the witness's dissentors

[ivory sluice]

So what is our goal right now? Are the vex still trying to create their perfect universe which would get rid of us and we are trying to stop it? Is that what echoes is about?

[sharp osprey]

so if you remember, right after we kill the witness, some star lookin things popped out of the traveler and flew away from it, those are echoes of the witness, whatever that means

one of these landed on nessus and is changing the vex

we're trying to figure out what all that means so far

the vex themselves are trying to figure it out too

[ivory sluice]

And it’s only affecting the vex on Nessus, not the cabal?

[sharp osprey]

as far as i know, yeah

the cabal are just chilling

[ivory sluice]

I see, so the whole witness thing isn’t actually done yet, and we don’t know if salvathun has played any part in this?

[sharp osprey]

the witness thing is definitely done, it's dead, we're just now dealing with the aftermath of its echoes and all the other players in Sol

as for savathun

[ivory sluice]

So the echoes weren’t caused by the witness as a last ditch or anything, it was just the effect of killing the witness?

[sharp osprey]

she's an evil bastard, i think she wanted to help kill the witness 1) cuz the final shape means the end of her power and 2) the power vacuum its death creates allows her to swoop in and grow more powerful

[sharp osprey]

seems like it, yeah

[ivory sluice]

She is free from the hive logic right? So what does more powerful mean to her?

[sharp osprey]

the lucent hive are weird

i dont really know what their belief system is

i think savathun at one point said that she's trying to find another way or something

[ivory sluice]

Another way to what? Live? Survive?

Like a purpose?

[sharp osprey]

another logic for the universe maybe?

i'm not sure

[ivory sluice]

Ahh

[sharp osprey]

they're a mystery to me, someone more knowledgeable probably can give you a better answer

all i know is Savathun is funny but absolutely evil and Luzaku is based

but at the same time, we do owe a good amount of our victory to Savathun

[ivory sluice]

I’m just trying to soak it all in, all I’ve doing for the past 2 years is just shoot whatever the vanguard wants me to shoot

[sharp osprey]

she hid the veil

etc etc

[ivory sluice]

That’s because our victory is her victory

[sharp osprey]

our victory is because of her meddling

if she didnt hide the veil, theres a good chance humanity wouldve been another species destroyed by the witness

and just another pitstop on the traveler's, well, travels

someone's probably gonna come in here and correct all the stuff i'm saying lol

[ivory sluice]

But she didn’t hide the veil for us, we just happened to be the civilization at the time

[sharp osprey]

right, she doesn't care about humanity lol

she just saw us as an opportunity

i think Savathun's ultimate goal is to free herself from the sword logic

[ivory sluice]

Does she also want her sister dead? Do they not like each other?

[sharp osprey]

the worm gets exponentially more hungry, she wants to survive

[ivory sluice]

Was that not done when we removed her worm?

[sharp osprey]

because the sword logic and all that, in hive culture, war is love

you only go to war against someone if you respect them

you only go to war against someone if you want to prove which of the two of you deserve to exist

[sharp osprey]

partially? like i said i'm not sure entirely

[ivory sluice]

So as of right now, she is still bound by sword logic.

[sharp osprey]

not sure

[ivory sluice]

Ahh

[sharp osprey]

she is not bound by her worm

but you dont need a worm for the sword logic

as far as i've interpreted it

[ivory sluice]

Right, as demonstrated by eris

[sharp osprey]

in season of the witch, Savathun explained war = love pretty well

she explains that she loves her sister so much, and that the best way for a hive to express it is to go to war, to prove each other

[calm granite]

I don't think sav is bound to the sword logic anymore

[jagged badge]

Well, Eris’ ritual did require worms in a way. And not to mention, Ahsa ended up helping Eris out with the tithes so

[calm granite]

they're bound to it normally because the worms need kills to get cooler

eris did have a worm, just not in her belly, I think

along with the whole ritual business

[ivory sluice]

So is this sword logic actually real? Is there a paracausal effect that makes you stronger the more you kill, or is it like a faith?

[sharp osprey]

I AM THE MANY MOUTHED HUNGER

[calm granite]

the worms need and grow the more you kill I believe

hence the tithing thing for eris and the like

[sharp osprey]

toland, who is a sword logic radicalist, believes that the sword logic is a self evident fact of the universe

atoms beat primordial goop because it did, therefore sword logic

[ivory sluice]

And the worms, are what give you power.

[calm granite]

afaik sav wasn't even bound to the sword logic before because she somehow derived it with the engine thingamabob in witch

[calm granite]

smth like that I think

[fresh zephyr]

The Worms are kinda like Ahamkara where they can convert actions or desires into power

[sharp osprey]

the sword logic is like a more brutalist version of natural selection i think

[fresh zephyr]

We know the Sword Logic isn't actually native to them, just a way the Witness twisted them

[ivory sluice]

Okay, so if she is no longer bound by that logic, we just no idea what she actually wants, does she know what she wants

[calm granite]

sav gains power through schemes and lies

[sharp osprey]

savathun definitely has a plan

[calm granite]

cause of the thing

[sharp osprey]

she's the god of trickery and schemes and all that

[calm granite]

she has a plan, we just have no idea what it is

her being a timeless hive god with a lot of knowledge in extremely unknown things makes her plans usually fairly inscrutable

hence her favorite pastime of fucking with mara

[fresh zephyr]

So with Sav, as long as she decieved people, her Worm could use that act. And Oryx, likewise, depended on basically constantly discovering new things and being a 'Navigator'. And Xivu fed on the basic idea of war and conflict

[sharp osprey]

and then when Eris became a hive god she was the god of vengeance iirc

[fresh zephyr]

Yep

[ivory sluice]

Right, but since we removed her worm, she no longer gets stronger from cunning, right?

[fresh zephyr]

No. She has no access to Darkness anymore

She still does it simply out of habit though

[sharp osprey]

she just likes the funny deception cuz its who she is

[ivory sluice]

So why, is she still cunning? And tricking?

[ivory sluice]

Ahh

[sharp osprey]

shes been doing it for billions of years

[ivory sluice]

It’s just who she is

I see

[fresh zephyr]

She's been doing it for at least 4 billion years so it's ingrained at this point yeah

[calm granite]

cause that's her thing bbg

not really out of habit, more like being extremely good at it

it's like mara, except her plans don't all crash into flames

[sharp osprey]

the savathun and mara banter in the ergo sum quest was elite by the way

[fresh zephyr]

Well technically, we did screw up Savathun's plans

[ivory sluice]

And because she loves her sister, she wants to kill her, that’s not to do with worms or anything, that’s just hive culture.

[sharp osprey]

i mean it does have to do with worms cuz killing feeds worms

[fresh zephyr]

She said herself that she did not believe we could actually stop Quria and that she'd underestimated us.

[sharp osprey]

perhaps they see war as nourishment in that way??? hmmm

[calm granite]

sav doesn't have a worm, that nourishment doesn't exist

[sharp osprey]

thats true

[fresh zephyr]

And that threw off whatever her original plan was for the Light

[ivory sluice]

That’s what I’m trying to say

[sharp osprey]

so yeah, she wars cuz she loves

[calm granite]

logically sav wants to kill her sister because she knows that otherwise it'll be the other way around, given she's committed fairly heavy heresy with the whole light thing

xivu is coming, and the plan most certainly is to kill everyone, as god of wars do

[ivory sluice]

I see, so a survival thing.

[calm granite]

think so

I'm no lore gremlin mind you, but I don't think there's smth else

[sharp osprey]

to "orthodox" hive, savathun is probably the biggest heretic there is

[ivory sluice]

With xivu now mortal, is she still coming? Does she not care?

[sharp osprey]

i dont think we know exactly what shes doing right now

[fresh zephyr]

We know she's gathering her forces

[calm granite]

I believe xivu is still coming

[fresh zephyr]

Who knows if she comes herself

[sharp osprey]

theres a non zero chance Frontiers involves taking the war to her in Torobatl

[ivory sluice]

I’m starting to get it now

[sharp osprey]

but then again, war empowers her so yeah

[fresh zephyr]

That's kinda what I'm expecting, too

I think Heresy will be the prelude to that maybe

Given that they talked about how it's going to be a 'pressure cooker' for the dynamics between Sav and Xivu

[sharp osprey]

part of Seraph's storyline was figuring out how to wage war against a being who grows more powerful by the act of war itself

[ivory sluice]

Now before they were hive, was that war logic still their culture?

[fresh zephyr]

Nope

[calm granite]

no

[fresh zephyr]

They were originally a really short lived species that only lasted a couple years

[calm granite]

the sword logic is a direct descendant of the need from the worms and the darkness afaik

[sharp osprey]

the krill were a very weak regular old species

[fresh zephyr]

And were basically 'prey' for everything living on their original planet

[ivory sluice]

I thought that was a lie by the witness

[fresh zephyr]

Nope

[ivory sluice]

Ohh

[sharp osprey]

the lie was the godwave

[fresh zephyr]

That was true

^

[sharp osprey]

the witness exploited the krill's weakness

[fresh zephyr]

Or rather, that the Traveler caused the Godwave.

[calm granite]

the krill really were trash

[sharp osprey]

krill lifespan was like 10 years lol

[ivory sluice]

What is this godwave?

[calm granite]

the lie was the witness telling em they should tell the traveler to fuck herself

[fresh zephyr]

Savathun all but accused the Witness of being responsible for it in some dialogue

[sharp osprey]

a lie made by the witness that the appearance of the traveler at fundament would cause a monumental godwave killing everything on the planet

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, the Witness changed the motions of the Hive's home planet's moons

[sharp osprey]

and that they need to go to the ocean's depths to find salvation

[ivory sluice]

I see now, I remember that

[silk nova]

aka some wormy bois

[ivory sluice]

So it could have been any species, not just the krill, the krill was just an easy exploit at the time

[fresh zephyr]

Sort of

The Witness picked them to spite the Traveler

[sharp osprey]

the krill wouldve been blessed by the traveler

[fresh zephyr]

Because the Traveler was about to visit them, like it had done their neighbors

[sharp osprey]

so thats why the witness went after them specifically

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

It was a petty fuck

[sharp osprey]

truly

[silk nova]

the Witness tries to go after the races that the Traveller is bout to bless and if he cant, he blasts those that are alr blessed

he’s a petty lil first knife

[fresh zephyr]

Yeeep

Which is why the Collapse was so violent

[ivory sluice]

This makes sense. I see it now

[sharp osprey]

when the witness happens upon a civilization not connected to the traveler or anything, it just simply final shapes them immediately

[fresh zephyr]

And why he literally created 'The God of Pain' Nezarec to unleash on species the Traveler uplifted

[sharp osprey]

but because it HATES the traveler so much, it intentionally makes the civilizations it blesses suffer

it was the most petty

[ivory sluice]

What is final shape? Does that mean to eradicate? To remove the cycle of life and death?

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, the Witness' Final Shape is to freeze everything in a single moment in time, forever

[sharp osprey]

to calcify or freeze in a state of eternal stillness forever

[silk nova]

the most simple way to put it is the removal of chaos

[sharp osprey]

not stasis, dont mix that up lol

[silk nova]

entropy in essence

[ivory sluice]

So would the witness have eventually freezed itself?

[sharp osprey]

you can see it a little bit in the final shape's first cutscene, it nearly finishes the final shape and earth is frozen for a few moments but is saved by the traveler

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, you're trapped in a single moment for the rest of existence, which is meant to last forever, and the Witness decided what the 'moment' is for you.

Yep

[silk nova]

nah it would have exerted itself as just the controller of everything. The Witness woulda just sat above it all and manipulated everything like a Lego set

[sharp osprey]

literally lord business from the lego movie

not even a joke, its an apt comparison

[silk nova]

taco tuesday is the ultimate final shape

[fresh zephyr]

The Dissenters talked about how they would only be reunited with the Witness when the Final Shape was achieved and the Witness made them all 'perfect'

So I think it planned to finalize itself too, eventually

Because there would've ultimately been nothing to control once it's work was done

[ivory sluice]

Oh I see, so the final shape isn’t a value of the witness, it is simply a plan for the witness to essentially control everything. It had no intentions of calcifying itself for the final shape,

[ivory sluice]

That’s what I was asking I see now

[silk nova]

well as Ambient said, it might have done it eventually

but we just wont know now

[ivory sluice]

Right

[sharp osprey]

think about it this way: the witness tried to remove agency and give its idea of purpose and well, destiny to the universe, whereas the traveler gives us the blessings and agency to determine our own destinies

thats why the traveler never speaks, it doesnt want to interfere with our agency

[ivory sluice]

Are they still followers of the final shape belief?

[fresh zephyr]

The raid lorebooks are also pretty interesting, and it gives more insight into the way the Precursors thought

[sharp osprey]

who?

[ivory sluice]

What’s what I’m wondering, are there beings that are still trying to carry out the final shape even after the witness is gone?

Or was that just a witness thing

[fresh zephyr]

Xivu has her own idea of it

[sharp osprey]

probably, the witness had many, many followers

the sword logic's final shape is the last thing standing after everything else is killed

[silk nova]

i’d assume its the sword logic

[ivory sluice]

And then what? That’s it?

[sharp osprey]

that last being has proved its right to exist over everything else. Yes, that's it.

[silk nova]

i mean the sword logic at its core is survival of the fittest

[fresh zephyr]

And there may still be Disciples around, but the Disciples had no unified idea of what the 'Final Shape' was because basically the Witness simply told them what they wanted to hear.

[ivory sluice]

If that were to happen, and everything else is dead, and there is nothing left to kill, will the worm just consume them?

[silk nova]

hell some of the Disciples might not have believed in it ay all

Cough Calus

[sharp osprey]

hmmm

good question actually

[fresh zephyr]

Ironically, yes

The Hive were never meant to be successful

[sharp osprey]

according to the sword logic, the Boston Celtics will likely be 2024's NBA final shape

[silk nova]

means to an end

[fresh zephyr]

Once they ran out of things to kill, they die

[ivory sluice]

And then what? Just a worm in a universe of nothing?

[fresh zephyr]

Pretty much

[silk nova]

and destined to be turned into superweapons by a guy with a pointy stick

[ivory sluice]

Do worms need a host?

[fresh zephyr]

Not when they are full grown

But they do need to feed off other people, otherwise they are weakened

But they won't die, presumably

At least that we know of

[ivory sluice]

Xol was full grown?

[silk nova]

yeah a fully grown worm god

but the weakest of the bunch

presumably there’ll be worm gods in the next episode

[sharp osprey]

i think we might finally mantle Oryx in episode 3

[fresh zephyr]

Were they shown for Revenant or Heresy?

[sharp osprey]

as the navigator, which leads nicely into Frontiers i think

[fresh zephyr]

Can't remember

[ivory sluice]

So how is it possible for us to combat sword logic, without using sword logic?

[silk nova]

there’s a little cutscene with some Fallen and a worm god

[sharp osprey]

B O M B logic

[fresh zephyr]

Inteeeresting

[silk nova]

let me find the frame

[fresh zephyr]

Sword Logic, in and of itself, has no real power.

It's just an idea

[ivory sluice]

Okay I see now. So we are not fighting sword logic, we are just fighting worms

[fresh zephyr]

Basically

[fresh zephyr]

The Worms originally had nothing to do with the Sword Logic. They simply fed off hosts through other means

It was the Witness who twisted them into what they are now

[ivory sluice]

And sword logic was the idea created from the result of having to feed the worm

[sharp osprey]

the worms were trapped in the depths of Fundament's oceans, and Rhulk offered them escape from it in exchange for eternal combat hunger

[lofty badge]

Could it be Luzaku is working on making her own brood? given it looks like there are hive eggs in the blooming deep lost sector

[ivory sluice]

Ahhhh

Now I see

[silk nova]

well they had to give up their mummy too

[sharp osprey]

yes, so that Rhulk could make
THE UPENDED

[sharp osprey]

definitely seems like it

[ivory sluice]

Thanks so much guys, I’m going to go back to the video.

[fresh zephyr]

The Sword Logic existed before the Worms, maybe. This is where we get into murky, we-don't-really-know territory.

[lofty badge]

would be cool to have a friendly hive brood on our team

[silk nova]

question is

where will we go in Frontiers

[sharp osprey]

we will go to new frontiers

[silk nova]

epic

[fresh zephyr]

If the Winnower is real, then the Sword Logic is basically just a practical application of it's 'principle' which is just natural selection

[sharp osprey]

probably torobatl if i had to guess

[lofty badge]

my guess is Torobatl

mabye we go to the remains of Riis

[fresh zephyr]

Given the hints between Zavala and Caiatl yeah

[silk nova]

probably a lot of hivey bois there

[lofty badge]

yeah

besides we got to help the cabal reclaim their homeworld

[fresh zephyr]

Though honestly.....I kind wonder about that.

[sharp osprey]

my prediction is that Heresy will finally involve us mantling Oryx and becoming the navigator, using his dreadnought and a new hive brood led by Luzaku to face Xivu Arath head on in Torobatl

[fresh zephyr]

Torobatl is apparently mostly desert

And that'd be a pretty boring destination

[silk nova]

it would probably be reshaped by the Hive there

[fresh zephyr]

Oh yeah

[sharp osprey]

not if they abandon past gen

[fresh zephyr]

So lots of Hive gunk too

[ivory sluice]

Savathun will not give us her brood to fight xivu?

[silk nova]

Plus Mars was desert and it was fine

[fresh zephyr]

Though they could have the actual destination be Xivu's War Moon

[sharp osprey]

doubt it, but anything is possible

[silk nova]

although the public event was the only reason why Mars was fun

[sharp osprey]

the enemy of my enemy and all that

plus, she helped us kill the witness of course

idk

the difference is our motives i think

[silk nova]

she’s still in it for her own aims

[sharp osprey]

we want to kill xivu to take torobatl back

[silk nova]

as usual

[fresh zephyr]

Sav basically told us that after she helped us, that we were 'even' or something like that and we were going back to being enemies

[sharp osprey]

she wants to kill xivu cuz funny

well, survival

[silk nova]

i just wna turn Xivu into a gun

[sharp osprey]

but also the funny

[fresh zephyr]

Tbh, I kinda doubt she actually wants to kill Xivu. I think she'd get a much bigger kick out of screwing with her and finally getting her to abandon the Sword Logic and follow Sav's direction.

[ivory sluice]

So it doesn’t matter to her if we kill xivu, or she kills xivu. It has nothing to do with love, purely survival

[ivory sluice]

Ahh

[sharp osprey]

well she do still love her sister i think

[fresh zephyr]

To a degree yeah

She also pities her because, well, she's an idiot

Xivu being the idiot that is

[sharp osprey]

savathun is a very interesting character
i thought at one point i had figured her out but nah, she's still a super evil space genocide bastard (who is pretty funny admittedly)

[fresh zephyr]

Honestly, I think the stuff from Arrivals is still valid

[ivory sluice]

Well you can’t really change your logic can you? If you decide that war is your logic to feed your worm, how do you break free of that? Is your worm not bound by the logic you set?

[fresh zephyr]

Savathun wants to find a 'third way' to escape the game between the Gardener and the Winnower.

[sharp osprey]

i think that what she's trying to do

yeah

[ivory sluice]

Ohh okay

[fresh zephyr]

Savathun could potentially do to Xivu what she had done to herself

[sharp osprey]

can't wait for the all caps xivu dialogue in Frontiers lol

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, she could remove Xivu's worm, kill her, then get her rezzed by one of her Ghosts

[ivory sluice]

So she is trying to save her sister

[fresh zephyr]

We don't really know

It's just an idea

[ivory sluice]

I see

[sharp osprey]

savathun is still a mystery even after all these years and her own expansion lol

[fresh zephyr]

^

[ivory sluice]

Interesting

[silk nova]

she’s a tricky bih

[fresh zephyr]

What her ultimate goal is basically totally unknown

But I do think she wants that 'third way'.

Because her original plan for the Light would've presumably allowed her to use both Light and Darkness

[ivory sluice]

So all we know is right now vex are going wonky and we are trying to figure out why

[fresh zephyr]

Since she wouldn't have had to get rid of her Worm

[sharp osprey]

wait a minute, "a third way", we know the light and darkness arent opposites but are two parts of the same thing, what if she's trying to find a third paracausality?

does that make any sense at all?

[fresh zephyr]

Pretty sure that's just Prismatic

And I think that's what she wants

[silk nova]

u mean like those times she was trying to harvest light from guardians?

[fresh zephyr]

Yes

And the other stuff

[silk nova]

i forgot abt that strike

[ivory sluice]

The issue with pris is that it takes parts from light and dark, not the whole right? Or is that just for game balancing?

[fresh zephyr]

She told us back in Splicer when she was having Quria drain the Traveler's Light that she had underestimated us and hadn't expected us to actually succeed, and she wouldn't make that mistake again.

[sharp osprey]

thats just game stuff

[silk nova]

its interesting that we haven’t actually seen the full might of the Hive war machine

[ivory sluice]

I see

[fresh zephyr]

And we know she was researching Ghosts and trying to figure out how they work

[silk nova]

like a Hive war moon is smth i wanna see

[sharp osprey]

in lore, subclasses arent rigid boundaries
before prismatic, it wasnt uncommon to see guardians using all three light elements at the same time for example

[fresh zephyr]

So my guess is that her original plan was to basically make bootleg Ghosts

[sharp osprey]

the difference with prismatic is that it transcends the boundaries between light and darkness

[fresh zephyr]

With the Light she'd had Quria steal

[ivory sluice]

Makes sense now

[fresh zephyr]

As for Prismatic and all that

It's basically just the 'original force' Light and Darkness were divided from, and it can do whatever they can but amplified.

We also know from the Traveler visions you can find around the Pale Heart

[sharp osprey]

which brings me to a question i've had: in lore, before prismatic, if a guardian could wield both light and darkness, could they use both at the same time? is lore prismatic just transcendence?

[fresh zephyr]

They couldn't use them at the same time, no. Ghost says when we entered the Traveler and found Prismatic for the first time that after soaking in the energy that 'the line between them was gone'

[sharp osprey]

ok

good to know

so my guardian couldnt canonically do the funny getaway artists build until she learned prismatic specifically

[fresh zephyr]

But yeah, from those visions we know there are two other forms of paracausality aside from the Traveler.

Basically, yeah

[sharp osprey]

wait what

[fresh zephyr]

Yep

[sharp osprey]

darkness and prismatic?

or other stuff entirely?

[fresh zephyr]

Other stuff

[sharp osprey]

YOOOO

[fresh zephyr]

Basically in one of it's visions

[sharp osprey]

where can i find this? i must have not understood fully if i saw it

[fresh zephyr]

It still had a memory of the time before it and the Veil were split apart

And it recalled existing a 'haze of cosmic energy, red and green'

Which doesn't match anything we know of

[sharp osprey]

where is this?

[fresh zephyr]

Lemme find it

[sharp osprey]

i mean strand and nightmare?

[fresh zephyr]

Light and Darkness didn't exist back then, though. Not until the split happened

And this was from before

https://youtu.be/gSCF_0wcZCY?t=679

There you go

It should be time stamped

[sharp osprey]

Ok, 1 sec

[fresh zephyr]

What's interesting is that the Traveler recalled an 'abrupt severance', which refers to the separation from the Veil. Which implies that something outside of it was responsible.

[ivory sluice]

So why did the traveler not want to merge back with the veil when the witness brought it to it?

[sharp osprey]

interesting

[fresh zephyr]

We don't know for sure

[ivory sluice]

Oh okay

[sharp osprey]

micah is definitely a speaker

[fresh zephyr]

Just that it was afraid of being reunited with it, and that it 'didn't want unity, but stagnation'

Whatever that means

Oh yeah

And so is Crow

[ivory sluice]

Interesting

[fresh zephyr]

There's another vision that talks about that too

[sharp osprey]

so theres the green traveler and the red traveler somewhere out there lol

[ivory sluice]

And we have the white traveler

[sharp osprey]

and the black traveler

[ivory sluice]

Does that mean there are other veils

[fresh zephyr]

Actually

[ivory sluice]

Black traveler?

[fresh zephyr]

My theory on those two energies

[sharp osprey]

veil

[fresh zephyr]

Is that they are the Gardener and the Winnower. Because they aren't physical beings.

[sharp osprey]

but dont the gardener and the winnower associate with the traveler and veil respectively?

like if im not mistaken, the precursor cutscene outright calls the trav the gardener and the veil the winnower

[fresh zephyr]

The Traveler tells us that 'it isn't what we think it is' in another one of the visions.

Er

There we go

[sharp osprey]

we're getting deep

[ivory sluice]

Oh so what you are saying is that there is more than what we perceive to be light and dark, and that they are all travelers

[sharp osprey]

nah i'm just making a joke

[fresh zephyr]

If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole

[sharp osprey]

the veil isnt really the black traveler, i'm just being silly

the veil is the veil and the traveler is the traveler

[ivory sluice]

But there are def 2 more, something red, something green

[fresh zephyr]

I think the Traveler/Veil when they were united are actually the 'Garden' in Unveiling's metaphor.

The red and green are just energies

Not objects

[ivory sluice]

Ah

[fresh zephyr]

Now they could have a source

But we don't know that much

[sharp osprey]

that would actually make sense, the traveler and the veil were the garden, and the green and red were the gardener and winnower within it

[ivory sluice]

So the garden, is the world that the gardener creates during the day, and then the winnoer removes it at night?

[fresh zephyr]

But yeah, in Unveiling the Garden is called 'the field of possibilities'. Now, if we look at the Pale Heart, that's basically exactly what it is. Within it, anything you can think of can become real.

[sharp osprey]

i would read Unveiling if i were you, its hard to explain otherwise

just take it with a big grain of salt

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

It's all allegory and metaphor

[sharp osprey]

unveiling is beautifully written tho, its worth reading anyway

[ivory sluice]

Right

[sharp osprey]

even tho its kind of word salad at times lol

[fresh zephyr]

And in Unveiling, the Gardener and the Winnower 'write themselves into the rules of the game', which basically means the rules of the Garden

So if my theory is right, when they wrote themselves into the rules, they split the Garden's power between them

[sharp osprey]

🤯

[fresh zephyr]

And it separated into Light and Darkness, respectively

[sharp osprey]

and to be clear, "the Garden" we're reffering to here is the combined Traveler and Veil, correct?

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

Or whatever the hell they used to be

If they had a physical form at all at that point

Which they probably didn't

The Traveler's shell is obviously something that was made for example

[sharp osprey]

so old gardener and winnower were doing the funny flower game, gardener gets frustrated that the game keeps ending the same way, so she suggests adding a new rule, thereby adding herself and her counterpart into the garden itself, thereby splitting the garden into the traveler and veil, and then the winnower finds the first knife, the witness, in its hands

[fresh zephyr]

Depends on how literal Unveiling is, and how literal the Witness was being about it's claim as the 'First Knife'.