📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

Vincent never picked another Guardian and neither did Jaren Ward's Ghost

[chrome fog]

Yor only had the one, Vincent, whom kept him dead after Shin got him

Probably need a pin explaining Shin’s story sometime

[trim grotto]

At the risk of sounding a little egotistical, there is my rather thoroughly sourced own write-up on that topic

[chrome fog]

I would recommend reading up on the Ghost Stories lorebook, both funny times and heartbreaking accounts, and a couple instances that confirm only one Risen per Ghost ever

[stark fjord]

Lemme cook bro

[chrome fog]

The theatre play is funny

[stark fjord]

I’m finding evidence

Pls

[trim grotto]

Anyway actually going now ||if you want the document it's probably linked somewhere, it's on my reddit||

[trim grotto]

Pigeon and the Phoenix

Early entry with Sagira and Osiris and a Warlord
It'll be all you find outside of Shin

[chrome fog]

Shit they don’t have a gif of bardock’s ki blast getting subsumed by Frieza’s ball thing

[trim grotto]

It's the aforementioned suggestion without evidence

Anyway I'll pick this up later have fun

[chrome fog]

I also eep because I have thing to do for like the entire day tomorrow

Wake up at 7am and then do a bunch of island hopping

[trim grotto]

Never mind I went to the pub instead lmao

[trim grotto]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/s/RRIsrgKtxD

If you're interested in the topic of Shin Malphur specifically, I wrote this up a while ago. As far as I'm aware, nothing here is outdated.

[fresh zephyr]

Tbh, Shin’s whole existence is a massive plot hole.

[trim grotto]

I prefer the term "mystery".

[fresh zephyr]

Eh. They were going somewhere with it, maybe, but decided to drop it and just had Shin disappear so they didn’t have to deal with it.

[raw hazel]

I mean, I don't think giving him a nice ending to his story is the same as dropping it.

[trim grotto]

Jon Goff is quite happy to keep writing Shin if given the chance.

They've just put his story aside for a while

[fresh zephyr]

I doubt he’ll ever actually come back. Back when that was written, the lore around what happens when you lose a Ghost was still up in the air since Eris was the only example and she had her issues with the Hive muddying the waters. Now we’ve had multiple examples, and it’s always the same. No Ghost, no Light. So they would have to actually explain how he managed to keep his Light when no one else did.

And when it comes to problems like that, they tend to just let them disappear.

[trim grotto]

Even back then it was a known factor. Besides, we've had stranger things explained, and Shin isn't exactly a deep dive piece of lore. I doubt it'll be soon, but he'll probably show up one day.

[fresh zephyr]

It wasn’t though. Eris was literally the only example we had to go off of. There were a few others mentioned who had lost their Ghosts, but it never talked about if they’d also lost their Light too, just that they were limited to one last death. Like Lush.

[trim grotto]

Be that as it may, the rest of my statement remains my opinion.

Anywho, after a lovely bowl of chips and a soothing pot of beer, now I'm heading home

[heavy vortex]

I’ll get very mad yes

[sick yew]

He might even cry

[dim minnow]

shouldn't talk about that here, spoiler rule

[fluid steppe]

is it not enough to spoiler mark it

[candid inlet]

xovenetia (ID 516552086205235230)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
As we are nearing the launch of Final Shape, I’d like to remind you all that any newly revealed (lore) content will have to be discussed in #1247252842465460225 until <t:1718125200:f>.

Failure to follow this rule will be met with mutes, sharing leaks will result in removal from the server. Enjoy the expansion.

Command triggered by xovenetia. Message link from · Jun 4, 2024, 2:56 PM

[dim minnow]

nope

[vale cradle]

Is it true that Eris was the strongest Hive god at one point...?

[dim minnow]

yes, but only briefly

[vale cradle]

That was... easy?

[dim minnow]

it was after we provided a great amount of tribute to her through rituals

and her killing Savathun after coaxing Immaru to revive her earlier than he was supposed to

then she let go of all that power in a single exertion in order to banish Xivu Arath from her Throne World

[jagged badge]

@trim grotto do you happen to have the citation for the confirmation of Shin not being paired with a Ghost?

[raw hazel]

Proooobably was confirmed by Jon, I would imagine?

[jagged badge]

I know that but someone I’m talking to wants the citation and I dunno how to specifically find that

[raw hazel]

Think Mael’s driving so need to wait for a bit

[jagged badge]

Ah right

[jagged badge]

Wow, big drive

[chrome fog]

Aaauuuggh 3 hours is not enough sleep

[chrome fog]

I maintain the Sunbreakers theory, they took what little Solar Light of Jarren Ward remained in Last Word and used it to forge the gun into a similar weapon to the Sol Titan Hammer.

[remote sky]

So who's shin

[chrome fog]

Shin Malphur, the Man with the Golden Gun

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/shin-malphur

[trim grotto]

actually i got home and passed out for a few hours

[trim grotto]

also yes
scroll up a bit, it's in the post i linked

[jagged badge]

@tardy kestrel pertaining to our convo earlier

I’ll also just post that excerpt of Mael’s post

TheVanguardBR: So Shin has another Ghost?

Jon Goff: Shin had one Ghost (briefly), but many friends.

TheVanguardBR: Can you please help me to understand just one thing about Shin Malphur? Jaren's Ghost is with him since Jaren's death. Shin can use Light powers, but could the Ghost res Shin if he dies? Or they are just hanging together?

Jon Goff: It is my intent, as touched upon in certain words, that they are “just hanging out.” Though, whose Ghost Shin is hanging out with in his later life isn’t necessarily who you assume.

[trim grotto]

thanks jonathan goffathan

[maiden matrix]

how did the veil end up in neomuna?

[trim grotto]

Savathûn hid it there after stealing it from the Black Fleet.

[maiden matrix]

ohhh ok

[empty fern]

I’m back

[rapid mango]

Is there a lore reason we cant access venus in d2?

[trim grotto]

We're simply not patrolling it right now.
Others are, we aren't.

[trim grotto]

#1247252842465460225

[radiant arch]

Oh mb

[compact sky]

What even are the hive moths

[trim grotto]

Horrible abominations of flesh and Light!

Allow me to explain

[compact sky]

looking forward to it

but they do look pretty cute

[rapid mango]

Jut watching the byf 10 hour vid, Osiris and Saint 14 were lovers? 😮

[compact sky]

wouldn't call them abominations

[rapid mango]

that didn't come out in season of dawn unless i missed it

how cute

[trim grotto]

Patients report various symptoms: mood swings, headache, insomnia. Primary symptom remains the growths. I hesitate to call them "tumors"—no signs of metastasization. One must be precise in terminology, after all.
Biopsied a dozen growths. No clear results. The masses within are primitive, protoplasmic—little more than interstitial fluid and proteolytic amino acids. Primordial soup, as the Humans say. No sign of infection, but curiously, the lining of these "cysts," for lack of a better term, seems to be saturated with immune cells. Further biopsies will be needed.
Wondrous developments! Biopsy 37 yielded aggressive results. I pierced a cyst to discover not fluid, but life! A winged arthropod attacked me—defending its host, I estimate! Little of its body remained upon destruction, but it seems to be more energy construct than flesh. I plan to take the next specimen alive for vivisection.

Incredible. The Hives' own bodies transform Light into a parasite! What a wondrous adaptation!```

[compact sky]

what lore book is this?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/krill

[compact sky]

nice

thats a very cool image

[jagged badge]

Are, present tense

They’re still together

[rapid mango]

ooooh really?

[trim grotto]

certainly

[rapid mango]

It'd be cool to see a relationship web of the various main characters

Is the whole shaxx and mara thing real?

[trim grotto]

If you mean what I think you mean, no. One moment.

[compact sky]

didnt Shaxx recite a play or smthng to Mara

[rapid mango]

there's voice lines you can hear in the season of wish where shaxx is reading love letters to mara but it's actually riven

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[coarse tusk]

Does anyone have a writeup/video fo the current "loose ends" of destiny 2? Things like what are the Vex's current plans, Eris's status as the part time God of Vengeance, where is Shin, how is Ahsa, etc.

[trim grotto]

It was a joke on an old misunderstanding. Here's some new context.

sjur eido! the woman i named a tempest!
i told her stories of my friendship with sjur eido and her great bow. mara told me of the lost distributary, and of eido's quest to assassinate her in revenge for the diasyrm, i challenged the obvious lies in this story—the sjur eido I knew, dragon slayer whose arrows pierced illusion, would never have hesitated to kill, no matter how beautiful her target! and how could sjur, who shrugged off talk of gods as nothing of her concern, have also been a fanatical servant of this diasyrm, who cared only for lost divinity? inconsistent! and therefore a lie!
mara was delighted by my disbelief, she told me that she would tell me the truth about sjur if i would only take off my helmet, so she could look into the eyes that had gazed so often on her beloved.
did you know that pothos is another name for asphodelia, the white flower of the awoken? white flower of longing.```

[trim grotto]

There's probably one on Reddit, but I can answer the more specific questions.

Vex, same as always. Work towards the Convergence, their take of a Final Shape.
Eris lost her power when she severed Xivu's connection to her Throne World back in Witch.
Shin retired. He's vibing.
Ahsa is fine, but tired. She's hibernating.

[rapid mango]

what's the drifter up to nowadays

and what on earth are the nine

[trim grotto]

He's been working with us to prepare for the events of the Final Shape.
As for the Nine...

[coarse tusk]

I thought Shin was fck knows where keeping an eye on the dredgen and dark guardians?

[compact sky]

Vex are doing their own thing, they just chilling and turning people to code, and Shin is retired

[trim grotto]

He doesn't need to. It's self moderating now, it's a whole process he organised. We reclaimed the title of Dredgen and the Shadows of Yor have other operatives within them.

[compact sky]

iirc he stopped doing that

[coarse tusk]

Also, what is going to happen with the Ahamkara? Another great hunt in the future then?

[trim grotto]

If you want to learn about the Nine, the lore book Dust is the way to go. I recommend the entire thing, but if you just want the specific description instead of the full context, then read this.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine

[compact sky]

we're most likely just gonna leave them be

[ember storm]

it’ll probably just be a case by case basis, helmed by Mara

[trim grotto]

Queen Mara Sov is going to take care of them. Hopefully, in raising them, she will be able to convince them to not be horrible gremlin creatures that reshape Venus again.

[ember storm]

yknow, probably don’t want to jump into more genocide

[compact sky]

if they aren't bad then they live, if they are bad then we have more ahamkara based exotics

[coarse tusk]

Savathun' is just vibing in someplace, playing with us so I assume that she's also a potential loose end unless they mean to make the lucent brood very anti-heroey

[coarse tusk]

Let them turn Mars into a Walmart parking lot

[compact sky]

I don't think we even know what Savathun's doing, but we have Immaru so she most likely wont try anything for now

[trim grotto]

Well, we do have her Ghost.

[compact sky]

that actually brings up a question, can guardians be revived by another ghost if them and their ghost dies

[trim grotto]

If she starts causing chaos we can give him to Archie as a chew toy

[trim grotto]

Short answer or long answer

[compact sky]

your choice

[trim grotto]

Short answer: No.

[empty fern]

Kek

[compact sky]

whats the long answer?

I didnt know how short a short answer was 😭

[trim grotto]

Strictly speaking, we don't have any contradictory evidence, but there's never been any evidence of this happening throughout the centuries/millennia of Lightbearers and Ghosts existing.

[chrome fog]

There have been plenty of chances for such to happen and the fact it hasn’t speaks more volumes to it it being possible

[trim grotto]

This is what's known as circumstantial evidence

[coarse tusk]

Just spitballing here, but I think every guardian and ghost operates on a specific light frequency unique to their guardian, which is why so many ghosts work on a one-to-one basis.

[compact sky]

fair but there was also no evidence of ghosts being able to revive hive before Witch Queen. Although in a more rational thought, you probably lose all light as soon as your ghost goes kaboom

[chrome fog]

Funnily enough this is one theory! However! It is also possible to choose to Rez someone that the Ghost don’t feel that pull towards

[trim grotto]

That is essentially the given explanation for why the Martyr Mind of the Infinite Forest Vex was able to block Saint-14's Light (but we were fine), while never using this process ever again, yes.

[coarse tusk]

Even without any specific evidence, the behaviour and history of ghosts in destiny suggests that ghost get one, and one only.

[chrome fog]

Probably a very fun book for any of you looking to peruse some info on Ghosts
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-ghost-stories

Also sometimes depressing!

[trim grotto]

I see your point, but I am nonetheless confident in stating it isn't possible. However, for the sake of being objective, it isn't completely disproven, you're right.

[chrome fog]

[coarse tusk]

I forgot, spoilers, my b gang

[compact sky]

hm why do hive ghosts have green cores?

[chrome fog]

Aesthetic~

[trim grotto]

The Ghosts reformed in a manner to fit their new hosts

[coarse tusk]

Side question, has there ever been a recorced instance of a guardian drinking vex milk?

[trim grotto]

Yes!

[coarse tusk]

I know Eva's freaky ass makes them into cookies or what not.

[trim grotto]

Kabr the Legionless, whose Light forged the Aegis before he perished.

[trim grotto]

(that isn't actually canon)

[chrome fog]

Mael do you remember that thing about Ghosts being able to make armor and stuff from surrounding material, as which could explain why the Hive Ghosts have the Hive style shells?

[rapid mango]

why does drifter hate his ghost?

[compact sky]

do they also switch their voice to screech like bugs or is that just a thing with all ghosts

[trim grotto]

He distrusts all Ghosts.

[coarse tusk]

How dare bungie, make the creepy woman with a passion for baking the corpses of our dead foes canon, you cowards.

[chrome fog]

He just paranoid. But he better now

[rapid mango]

that's the fella that drank the vex milk when they tried to 3-man vog right?

[trim grotto]

They're also Light constructs so perhaps they could simply reform it

[chrome fog]

Smth smth that oven is now Paracausal or whatever

[trim grotto]

Yes, though given the reality-erasing power of the Vault, there may have actually been more than 3 - we'll never know

[chrome fog]

As in use the Light for said material processing, right?

Adding to that, some of the 227 might’ve been there too

[trim grotto]

Well, Immaru talks normally. As does Fynch.

[compact sky]

they thought it was a nightfall 😭

[coarse tusk]

Does anyone have the lorebook for what heppened to eris's team on the moon?

[compact sky]

as in when you grab them like a tennis ball

[coarse tusk]

Also, it's actual lore that Xenophage is technically alive right?

[trim grotto]

It's just kinda a thing
That very specific aspect wasn't really explained

[trim grotto]

Omar Agah, once a Hunter from Eris's Fireteam, yes

[chrome fog]

Turned into Solar Bug

Has funny Christmas hat for the ornament

[trim grotto]

It's sort of spread out across a few bits and bobs, including some in-game moments

What specifically are you after?

[compact sky]

Eris is a hunter, right?

[chrome fog]

Ye

Has Raspberry on her

[coarse tusk]

A narrative on what happened on the moon deep dive, and the immediate aftermath

[trim grotto]

While I grab something suitable, here's Ishtar's summary page
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/eris-morn

[compact sky]

how do the hunter, warlock, titan classifications work, is that just based on their personality, what their ghost wants, or completely random

[chrome fog]

Styles of utilizing Light, much like martial arts

[trim grotto]

It's essentially the way that your Light naturally leans, and then it's refined through techniques into ways and classes and forms

[compact sky]

ah

[trim grotto]

Drifter did none of this and so he's no class

[compact sky]

so technically a warlock can use hunter and titan abilities, just not through its highest capabilities

[chrome fog]

Theoretically any Lightbearer can cross the threshold of either ability, but like what Mael said it’s mostly a leaning towards how you manipulate the Light

[trim grotto]

Essentially, yes. Hunters learned to Blink from Warlocks. Our grenades, in game, actually used to be class based. Only Hunters could use Tripmines, for example.

[chrome fog]

For an example of cross-class wackiness, Shaw Han shot a Golden Gun bullet down and made a small Well of Radiance to boost some Redjacks

[compact sky]

when was this?

[trim grotto]

Essentially just a wacky Acrobat's Dodge

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-swarm

[compact sky]

has there ever been lore of characters that aren't classified as a hunter/warlock/titan

[chrome fog]

Darn

[compact sky]

like using their light in more unique ways

[trim grotto]

It's basically just Drifter and Dark Age Lightbearers from before the classifications existed

[chrome fog]

Drifter, technically anyone prior to the City Age as the classification was more or less established at the Vanguard’s founding

[compact sky]

thats cool

[chrome fog]

Do we have any other wacky Light stuff? Maybe Ana’s Golden Gun that left pools of Solar energy

[coarse tusk]

Did we ever get a look at the "hunter training school" that Crow mentioned back then? Where he learned to jump, flip, and shoot?

[compact sky]

most likely a joke, like an apprenticeship

[chrome fog]

Him getting stomped by any passing Guardians because of his face looking like Uldren’s. Because it was.

Probably

[trim grotto]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/darkbelow/

[chrome fog]

He did not have an easy early Lightbearer career, curbstomped on the regular and then got forcefully contracted to Spider’s op with a bomb strapped to Glint

[coarse tusk]

Thanks

[trim grotto]

Nope
More of a joke that he was just taught how to fight and not much else

It's essentially the point of the Crucible, actually

[coarse tusk]

WEird question to ask now, but do we have an accurate look at the biologies of male and female Cabal people? I got curious on how they reproduce and I was wondering if we Bungie ever wrote about it,

[chrome fog]

Like seahorses

[compact sky]

nah, it also teaches you how to meditate to deal with the shit you deal with in randoms

[trim grotto]

hahaha well we actually kind of did
not entirely but uh

[chrome fog]

Calus carried some of Caital’s siblings but then got jealous her mother was giving her attention like you do with a baby and ripped the sac holding them

[trim grotto]

uno momento

[compact sky]

ripped the what holding what

[chrome fog]

Barrack beau…

[trim grotto]

yeah just give me a sec

[rapid mango]

if they're called taken why haven't we seen liam neeson yet

[chrome fog]

He might be around

One Lightbearer was a mummy

[compact sky]

also why do the shadow/red legion still exist if their leaders are just dead

shouldnt they have defected to the cabal by now

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19WPJUsdOioB64g_bQciQ6zaUn3EDStZXKWBxkn1-dW4/edit?usp=sharing
Try this, use the headings to head to Caiatl's section

And enjoy

[chrome fog]

Don’t think it was Osiris, most likely someone else

[trim grotto]

Red Legion basically don't exist any longer. They're either rogues or joined the Ascenancy or Shadow Legion.

The Shadow Legion do still exist, as they have a military power structure and are half brainwashed for the Witness.

[chrome fog]

Any dead or alive person from now is game for Rez

[trim grotto]

Unless you mean Sen Aret, not a mummy, I don't know who you mean.

[rapid mango]

ooh, did we ever actually see the real calus on the leviathan?

[trim grotto]

No, not until Lightfall.

[compact sky]

I thought the only military power in the Shadow Legion was Calus, and I don't really see the witness as the type to lead, more to have others lead for them

atleast in regards to cabal and fallen

and maybe the vex

the taken is purely witness' control iirc

[trim grotto]

The Cabal are a militaristic species and the Legion is... well, a Legion. Names like Valus aren't just names, but military ranks.

So, there are others to lead.

[compact sky]

and some of the vex follow a god that's basically the witness

[trim grotto]

The Shadow Legion minds are mostly blanked, empty and vacant. They follow without hesitation, they believe in the Witness because they were made to.

[compact sky]

that makes sense

[trim grotto]

The Sol Divisive do so as they see it as a way to gain power and enact their Convergence.

Other Vex don't really mesh with the Sol Divisive much

[compact sky]

so we've mainly taken out most of the enemies aside from the witness, I wonder if we'll have to take out the vex sooner or later after the witness

[trim grotto]

I don't think the Vex can ever truly be "taken out", but they are a constant inevitable glacier. Ever present, dangerous, but usually slow moving.

[rapid mango]

can we be bffs with the vex like we are with the eliksni and cabal?

[trim grotto]

Not without a Vex becoming entirely unlike a Vex.

[chrome fog]

Which with some asspulling could happen. But like it’s a loooot of asspulling

[analog torrent]

Why is Eido searching for Eramis?

[trim grotto]

Eido believes Eramis can be saved from herself.

[empty fern]

Is Erimis still searching for athrys?

[ember storm]

probably

[shadow crypt]

Who’s athrys

[analog torrent]

eramis's wife

[shadow crypt]

What happened to her

[trim grotto]

When Eramis came to Sol, Athrys took their children and instead went to a different system for safety.

[shadow crypt]

Oh ok

[analog torrent]

I read somewhere that Cayde was established as an artist in d1, ||and this has been further established in d2 in the Hunter's Journal lore.||. Does anyone have a link to the d1 example?

[empty fern]

Naur

[stark fjord]

Who do u think painted the ace of spades

[analog torrent]

holy shit u rite

I never even thought about where the ace of spades came from

[stark fjord]

It’s just a true prophecy with card motifs

🥺

[analog torrent]

Does anyone have a link to the byf discord? Need to talk about the new lore but the spoiler rule

[empty fern]

Best I can do is cryptarchy

[ember storm]

Banshee

it was a custom order

[stark fjord]

LET ME COOK

😭😭😭

[ember storm]

Banned from the kitchen

you’re on server duty

[analog torrent]

🙏 link

[analog torrent]

wait fr
what loretab

[ember storm]

the literal grimoire 😭

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ace-of-spades

it’s also the reason banshee was responsible for repairing and improving the D2 version

[trim grotto]

Dude he deleted that a year ago

Literally deleted the entire community

[trim grotto]

It is a very different gun model

[stark fjord]

🤫

Teeheehee

[raw hazel]

I am still pissed about it

[empty fern]

Damn

[stark fjord]

Surely u can talk about it in #1247252842465460225

[analog torrent]

Chat moves too quickly for lore enjoyers to see 😔

[stark fjord]

Ohhh

I’m so sorry for that

[analog torrent]

Legit spent the past two hours reading every lore tab released in tfs and picking them apart
I will wait for the spoiler ban to be lifted

[idle urchin]

I'm Japan If you like the story Please help me　Is it okay to write it here?　AM1:28　JP　GOOD NIGHT

[stark fjord]

Hello, I’m happy you like story, I like story too!

[fluid steppe]

for how long has savathun been moustache twirling villain

[idle urchin]

The subclass has all of its final forms, which have not yet begun.

[stark fjord]

:p

[idle urchin]

Since it is a translation, I am worried about whether it is being conveyed

[stark fjord]

The translation is well but it is like 🤖

😭 only joking you’re alright

What’s you’re fave super

[idle urchin]

I've bought the final form, so I'm going to start it soon.

[stark fjord]

The final form 😭

I hope u have fun bro

Remember try not to spoil others though

As of right now at least

[idle urchin]

OK I understand

[stark fjord]

[stark fjord]

Since she ate her worm

[fluid steppe]

she is very annoying now

with the evil laugh and shit

[idle urchin]

I'm going to go it alone, I want you to help me with difficult things.

[stark fjord]

#🤝crossplay-misc

[idle urchin]

If there is someone who can help you, please do it.

[stark fjord]

This is the main place to find team mates for story and things that are not raid

Enjoy your stay

[stark fjord]

That channel that I have showed you brings you to where you may find teammates

OK

UM

TOPIC CHANGE

@fluid steppe hallo

Who’s ur fave character and why

[idle urchin]

Did you write it in the wrong place?

[fluid steppe]

not nimbus

[idle urchin]

Please

SORRY

I'm really sorry

[stark fjord]

:c

[stark fjord]

You’re alright it is an issue with translation

[idle urchin]

OK　I am sorry

[chrome fog]

I think you’d feel vindication in the final stage of her boss fight for Witch Queen. Quite literally on a figurative way shatter reality for her

[fluid steppe]

witch queen campaign definitely the best one

[idle urchin]

デステニー２はすべて購入済み

[fluid steppe]

i didn't understand anything

[idle urchin]

Destiny 2 has all been purchased

[empty fern]

Cool

[idle urchin]

The final form has now begun　　　https://www.youtube.com/live/WH18s8Wt1ng?si=xJWxaXZxIwaOHq7I

Looking for Friends

[empty fern]

(This is definitely gonna be a language barrier)

[real panther]

Do uhm. Is there like a guide out there to explains what in the fuck is going on to a newbie? One that requires 0 fore knowledge and is spoiler free. Through I'm not sure if being spoiler free it's possible.

[empty fern]

It’s not possible, but there is that 10 hour byf video and there’s a long list of summaries in this channel

Looking through this one

[real panther]

Im trapped between a rock and a hard place

[ember storm]

skim the timeline summary in the top right of the map ingame

if you’re intrigued and want to know more, check this out too

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/timeline/

[cold lotus]

so I'm a bit behind on shit, did amanda really die?

[blazing wasp]

Ye

Went kaboom

[cold lotus]

how? there a cutscene? is she a guardian yet?

[cold lotus]

best girl went kaboom... fuck

I shouldn't have stopped playing D2 man 😭

[blazing wasp]

Kaboom
Yes
No

Likely will never be guardian

[cold lotus]

wait

when you say likely will never, does it have swomething to do with the end of TFS

[blazing wasp]

No, I'm not.

[cold lotus]

oh then why

[blazing wasp]

I will not be discussing any spoilers without going to the channel for spoilers, i can read.

[blazing wasp]

Plot

Her death is completely invalidated if we keep bringing back dead people like that

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-season-of-defiance-amanda-holliday-shipwright-gif-1657078308884676909

[viral cedar]

What is the veil exactly ?

[red comet]

Idk if it’s meant to be in the game but I’m at the big tower of the scarlet keep

[jade pelican]

Correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve gathered that it is to the darkness what the traveler is to the light. The source of darkness paracasual powers

[fossil niche]

i havent played d1 so idk, is the lost city in the traveler the same from the first game? did people used to play with it, also how come its in the traveler

[jade pelican]

||The pale heart is a culmination of locations pulled from across the destiny universe. During the first mission, you run along parts of the dreadnaught which SHOULD be above Saturn. It’s still there, so the things inside the traveler are replicas of the things guardians have experienced||

We go through the original tower during the Zero Hour Exotic Mission. It’s on Earth in the last city still

[fossil niche]

||were u able to go to the other places that we went through in the campaign||

like the deck

[jade pelican]

I’m a f2p who joined at the middle of beyond light, so I can’t access the rest of tfs and didn’t go through the Red War campaign. I’m going to watch a playthrough later though to check if I’m right

[hasty geode]

Are we allowed to talk spoilers in here

[jagged badge]

No

#1247252842465460225

[dire hearth]

Anyone here i could dm with some spoilery things? I have a very long theory and need to talk it out with someone who know the lore pretty well if any of it was ever mentioned, etc

[cobalt mica]

is the veil still in neomuna

[dim minnow]

Yes

[hasty geode]

I have a such a big question for a specific new exotic but I feel like its a spoiler

[analog torrent]

ask in spoiler chat

[tawdry wigeon]

I dont have tfs so i dont know what going on all that much tbh but i noticed that the witness in the raid trailer he says "I" instead of "we"

I dont mind being spoiled or whatever

[ember storm]

we’ve known for a while that’s it’s a collective being made out of an entire civilization, the “we” stuff has been the way it speaks for years

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea but now it said I

Is anything mentioned in tfs about that?

[gentle geyser]

Could potentially be related to something that happens in specifically the raid

[tawdry wigeon]

I see alright

Oh mannn i need to get tfs

[rose oasis]

Okay has anyone played through all of Micah’s quests? Like the ones that have you revisit strikes? Cause I have a lore question about what she just asked Cayde in “The Illusion”

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[plain bronze]

what is red death and crimson's connection?

[trim grotto]

On the surface, not much.
Meta wise, Crimson was essentially a reimagining of Red Death from D1, but as a Handcannon, for... reasons I'm not entirely clear on.

There's not much lore for either weapon, with Red Death being a weapon used to kill Guardians in the past, and Crimson being a cruel weapon designed to somehow heal the user, as a response to the events of the Red War.

[gentle geyser]

Tbf, it was using an auto model

Went from the body of an auto to the body of a handcannon

[trim grotto]

The weapon model thing wasn't quite as stringent back in D1

[wicked fable]

What's so special about ahamkaras?

[chrome fog]

They grant wishes!

[wicked fable]

I thought those were only rivens though

[chrome fog]

Capable of shaping reality if given enough desire

[chrome fog]

Solely because she’s the last one, until recently when she found out some of her clutch had survived and were hidden by her mate, Taranis

[wicked fable]

Oh, so the species itself isn't called riven but instead are called ahamkara?

[chrome fog]

Another important thing to note is that Ahamkara very often twist a wisher’s wishes to be not exactly as they envisioned

[chrome fog]

Riven is an Ahamkara yes

[wicked fable]

Ohh, that makes more sense

Thank you

[chrome fog]

If you’d like more info, I’d peruse this page of the Ishtar website
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/ahamkara

[wicked fable]

Perfect, thanks

[compact sky]

why did she die again?

[chrome fog]

She was helping free some prisoners from the pyramid ships during Defiance, but in the last or second to last mission she wasn’t able to make it out in time

[unreal bison]

do you think its impressive that the fallen (without the light) and the cabal are impressive being so dominate without using light or darkenss to hold there own?

[acoustic sail]

what happens if humans or non eliksni consume ether

[gentle geyser]

Thats more so due to them having just simply better genetics

As well as having different cultures

Like if anything, if guardians didn’t exist the last city would get folded in a day

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, both can’t really hold their own. They get bulldozed unless they show up in absolutely massive numbers and outnumber Guardians hundreds to one, like with Twilight Gap or the Red War. And even the latter would’ve went in the City’s favor if not for them getting help.

[unreal bison]

Other then the darkness eliksni and calus who were the strongest from both the cabal and fallen respectively?

[gentle geyser]

This says more about guardians than anything

[analog torrent]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wild-hunt-boots

Cold prickling stung her veins. Muscles tensed and bulged against the sheaths of Light she had bound them in to keep from bursting. Her bones creaked under Ether-bolstered thew. She licked away flavor from her lips, exhalent tinged of briny nitrogen, and shivered. As her body stabilized and the tremors climbed, Trihn's head reflexively craned upward and outstretched her neck. Her mind electrified. Her spine bent at the brim of buckling.
This is a lightbearer
Sounds like they would hulk out and die lol

A little bit is fine, Falling Guillotine features a barkeep who has a tiny bit of ether in his drinks as residue from the servitor he ferments his drinks in https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/falling-guillotine

[cold onyx]

Does the final shape cut everything in pieces

[smoky beacon]

It reshapes the entirety of reality to the witness’ wants

To quote from the recent campaign missions, “it controls what it can’t change, and changes what it can’t control”

[blazing stream]

Ngl, the Terminus Horizon lore tab is.. haunting tbh

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[blazing stream]

Shit mb, figured it didn't touch upon campaign and was just Post-Splicer affiliated content

[rapid mango]

what ever happened to tyra karn

[dim minnow]

just doing whatever

she was at the farm last we checked

but that was a while ago

and the Red Legion bombed that place

[next bobcat]

So can we not talk any final shape stuff here?

Or just campaign stuff

[raw hazel]

Not until next weekly reset

[next bobcat]

Ok

When does the raid release?

[dim minnow]

on daily reset

so like 8 hours or so

[next bobcat]

Ah

3 AM here

I’m not much of a raider anyway

Didn’t bungie say there would be a way to experience the ending without raiding?

[broken relic]

What’s Aunor up to these days

[fresh zephyr]

Probably frothing at the mouth

Seriously though, I don’t think we’ve seen anything from her in a while

[sharp osprey]

so obviously you don't need to be a lightbearer in order to wield the darkness, but are lightbearers generally "better" at using darkness?

[trim grotto]

Well, you saw our training with Strand. We have a bit of... freedom.

[sharp osprey]

thats true

and the fact that we discovered strand, but thats just cuz we're kind of built different lol

[fresh zephyr]

I still want to know why humanity is supposedly the only race that can naturally wield both

[sharp osprey]

well the hive, right?

[fresh zephyr]

Nah. Savathun says back in WQ that she and everyone else are limited to only using one.

So she gained the Light, but lost the Darkness

[sharp osprey]

hmm, didnt know that but i guess it makes sense
maybe the fact that risen hive dont have their worms anymore has something to do with it

[fresh zephyr]

And apparently can’t get it back

[sharp osprey]

it would be cool to see the allied races of the coalition become darkness users, since its unlikely they will become lightbearers

but then again, you never know

[fresh zephyr]

I’m still expecting the Eliksni to get their own Ghosts eventually

[sharp osprey]

and the cabal too tbh

a silly idea for a dungeon i had is that taniks is the first risen eliksni, but thats cuz his ghost intended to rez a random captain on the battlefield and missed

[fresh zephyr]

I dunno about the Cabal, but given the Hive got it, it’s pretty much open to anyone

[sharp osprey]

well thats cuz the traveler originally intended to bless the hive before they became a people built upon genocide

but yeah

if savathun can still be worthy of a ghost, then anyone can lol

which leads me to another question: what is the lucent hive's deal? they're clearly evil, but they dont have the worms and their existence contradicts the sword logic, so like, what even are they?

[fresh zephyr]

Well, back in Arrivals it was suggested that Savathun’s ultimate plan was to find a ‘another way’ between Light and Darkness

What exactly that means is up in the air, but she certainly has something still cooking

[sharp osprey]

hmm interesting

[broken relic]

We bringing SIVA back with this one ‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️

[fresh zephyr]

My personal guess, now that we know Light and Dark were originally one force from Veil Containment, was that she wanted to gain that original form, which is probably what the energy Prismatic uses is. But we screwed up her original plan.

So she’s probably gonna come at that from a different direction now.

[sharp osprey]

also, is Aiat basically the hive's version of "Amen"?

[fresh zephyr]

Basically yeah

[jagged badge]

Aiat.```

[sharp osprey]

interesting

so its similar, but not an exact translation

[vital lodge]

are ghosts required to use darkness powers?

or can Zavala use stasis even now?

[jagged badge]

No

Elsie doesn’t have a Ghost. Neither do Eris and Osiris

[vital lodge]

Elsie doesnt?

wait no she has a pooka

[jagged badge]

She isn’t a Lightbearer at all

[vital lodge]

huh ok

[chrome fog]

Darkness is somewhat easier to grasp than others, being of the mental domain, but Light - whilst present through the universe - is more difficult to harness without help. It should be noted that there has been successful attempts to generate Light outdid of the Traveler’s influence as I know there’s some entry about a satellite or some sort condensing Solar energy into Solar Light

God I need to wake up I can’t read

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily true the first statement. The reason why she traded out the “Darkness” for the Light is because her worm was beginning to outpace how much tribute she could provide it, and so she realized the best course of action is to plan for her resurrection via Ghost so as to still have some powers while also getting rid of her worm

[fiery copper]

No we are fucking not lmao

[remote sky]

Can calus just.. do that

[chrome fog]

Do what

[remote sky]

https://tenor.com/view/calus-destiny2-calus-tone-calus-watch-calus-watch-tone-gif-26994403

Best I could find sorry

[jagged badge]

He used to drink planet juice and he got psionic abilities

[remote sky]

Yeah planet juice will def do that to you

[rapid mango]

what happend to the leviathan? I missed the witch queen and lightfall seasons

[trim grotto]

Emperor Calus flew it into the Mercury Anomaly. After that, and due to his experiements, it became overgrown with Egregore

He abandoned it as he "ascended" from his form to become a Disciple

[analog torrent]

What the hell happened in Revelation? The K1 crew died to Crota’s spawn, but before that, what drove them to madness? The Darkness?

[rapid mango]

egregore is the weird fungal stuff from the mission you get from dead mans tale right?

[trim grotto]

Yeppers

[trim grotto]

K1 Anomaly, a Darkness anomaly. Same thing contained in the centre of that one Crucible map.

Same thing that sent Clovis to Europa.

[analog torrent]

So Rasputin killed that punch-happy Titan because he didn’t want containment to be breached? Who put the anomaly there? Why does it cause madness?

[trim grotto]

Yes
The K1 Crew
that just how it do

[analog torrent]

Yooo
Just walked past anomalies irl

[analog torrent]

How’d they put the anomaly there? I thought they started digging and found it

[trim grotto]

[pure tree]

Once they've rezzed a guardian, are Ghosts permanently bound to them? Like if the guardian dies permanently in some way where the ghost manages to survive, can that ghost go and rez someone else?

[deft forge]

Bruhhhhh

[rapid mango]

can osiris use strand?

[analog torrent]

As far as we know, Ghosts are bound forever. There are two known edge cases:
-Osiris killed a Warlord and Sagira told the Ghost to find someone else. She was probably joking because we don't known of any Ghosts that have had more than one Guardian.
-Shin Malphur doesn't have a Ghost. He "hangs out" with Jaren Ward and Dredgen Yor's Ghosts. If it was possible for one of them to choose him, they probably would've done it.

[analog torrent]

yuh

[gentle geyser]

Stasis and darkness do not require a ghost to be used

[rapid mango]

then theoretically speaking, the eliksni and cabal can also use it

cool

[pure tree]

I think Saladin said in Season of the Deep that Caiatl was asking if Osiris could teach her and her cabal how to use strand

Or smth along those lines

[fast tapir]

the cabal using strand and stasis would be scary

[compact sky]

How does the crucible work, is there like multiple matches going on or like only one match after another

[trim grotto]

Given that Shaxx commentates over them, I assume the latter.

[compact sky]

either that or he has a soundboard

[compact sky]

iirc he used it during season of the wish to stop Mara Sov from sending Riven back to the afterlife

[rapid mango]

oooo

that's cool

thank you for showing me that

[compact sky]

how he learnt it without being turned into a fine mist of atoms, I don't know

[chrome fog]

It’s our cabal tho so it’s fine

[chrome fog]

Seeing us experiment

/learning how to use Strand and dying a bunch so as to avoid doing the same

[compact sky]

just like stasis, it has its downsides. Mainly you can just as easily die while using it, basically unraveling your quantum strings

[rapid mango]

it'd be cool to see what a splicer eliksni could do with the combo of their splicing and strand

[compact sky]

it took our guardians a shit ton of deaths to actually master and wield strand in Lightfall

[trim grotto]

1: Black. What an edgy boi.
2: Candy Corn. I've never had it and it sounds unpleasant.
3: Trick question! His parasite has no known name, and Hive don't have patron Worm Gods. But, you could argue Eir, if you were going down that route.
4: Chimp! Ook ook.
5: A moral structure declaring humanity to be effectively deceased. Gnarly.
6: The Rider! What's her name... Yaviks! What a wild card.
7: Orin! She's a bit trigger happy. Or, hammer happy.
8: The Tempest! Poor Sjur...
9: Caliban-8 and his magnificant hand.
10: Mendawasey! Deep cut, very nice question. I had to check that one.
11: Micah Abrams! Good thing Cayde couldn't aim.
12: I'm gonna go with deadlifting
13: Lol. Lmao, even. I don't think she actually made a Wish, per se, she just wanted to play a game of cards with a Wish Dragon.
14: 2/3rds of the Vanguard. For... some reason.
15: Ooh, good question. He had a delightful accent. Callum Sol, rest in peace. He is dead, though. His Ghost never brought him back.

[analog torrent]

You cooked 🔥🔥🔥

Candy corn is basically solid sugar the texture of what you’d imagine stiff candlewax to be. Some people love it. Lots more people hate it.

[compact sky]

candy corn is unpleasant

[jagged badge]

Literally using us as a lighting rod, that’s how

As to how that works, who tf knows. But us supervising his training meant that we got atomised instead

[paper gorge]

who is micah - 10 , and who are the 6 coyotes?

[trim grotto]

Micah-10, Den-Mother-Of-Ghosts. Hunter who shepherds and cares for her flock of unpaired Ghosts, and helps them find their Chosen.
She's also a member of the Six Coyotes, a legendary Hunter group known for mapping the Cosmodrome, and more.

[paper gorge]

oh cool thanks

[raw hazel]

mael go to sleep

[trim grotto]

NUH

[raw hazel]

go

to

SLEEP

[trim grotto]

nuuuuh

[raw hazel]

:v

well i am not your mother, but you should sleep soonish

[trim grotto]

yeah you're probably right
i'll find this ghost and then vamoose

[raw hazel]

GOOD

[chrome fog]

Tomorrow morning and I’ll be heading back soon I beg universe pls lemme go home

I am enjoying this escape to the Caribbean but ough I am all beached out

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[plain bronze]

what is the Sol Divisive?

[dim minnow]

sub collective of Vex

they mainly reside in the Black Garden and they serve the Witness

other Vex collectives are wary of them

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[robust violet]

OH

yo hold up

my fault

i couldnt find it bc im apparently blind

[unreal bison]

It still confuses me how there is two diffrent factions of scron, and vex because of the darkness... Help me undersant please

[dim minnow]

Vex as a whole have their own goal of dominating the Universe

every Vex unit shares this vision and works towards it

but, they aren't a hive mind

each subcollective has their own way of advancing the Vex goal

the Sol Divisive took to Darkness worship and now directly serve the Witness as a result

the rest of the Vex, however, do not serve the Witness and are even wary of the Sol Divisive

as for the Scorn, their innate ties to the Darkness made them a useful army for the Witness, but the Scorn were orginally led by Fikrul, the first Scorn

even now, Fikrul leads a good portion of the Scorn while the rest are forced into the Witness' servitude

[unreal bison]

so the scorn are braindead for the most part to whoever they serve?

[unreal bison]

also are the scorn limited to undead fallen? and the use of dark either? Does that mean the scorn army isnt infinate?

[dim minnow]

Scorn come from Dark Ether being infused with dead Eliksni

[ember storm]

it’s as infinite as long as there are more dead Eliksni

so, yeah, potentially infinite, so long as Eliksni generations go on and on

[dim minnow]

Dark Ether initially mainly came from Fikrul which was the result of an Ahamkara wish, but it seems the Witness is able to replicate it

also there are some Scorn that can just get back up

Fikrul is the most notable, but that is mainly for a different reason

[dim minnow]

they have been shown to develop their own culture and can even have enough intelligence to speak

though chances are the ones serving the Witness are just husks incapable of development

[unreal bison]

sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand the lore more and catch up. Is Fikrul still alive. I read he always comes back (Just like my fav boi Taniks lmao)

[dim minnow]

yeah he's still around

though we might be getting rid of him for good in Revenant which is the episode after Echoes

[unreal bison]

oh okays, but his barons are dead? I really liked the forsaken barons

[dim minnow]

yeah the Barons are dead

though one of them does get reanimated as a heroic public event boss

[unreal bison]

oh okays awesome. i stopped after the riven raid so doing alot of catch up.

Still trying to understand the Vex but ill get there

[dim minnow]

here, you should read these excerpts

[candid inlet]

dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion

The Vex are, so far, simply curious. But Vex curiosity always leads to Vex transformation [...]

The Vex will not rest until every star has been crushed into a black hole and every newborn cosmos filled with more Vex. And in the unending array of their enslaved cosmos, they will simulate all possible pasts, and fill those with Vex, so that all things that have ever lived or might ever live will experience infestation and consumption and torment by the silica nightmare.

And in those devoured simulations, the simulated Vex will use our flesh as hosts for yet more nested universes full of yet more nested copies of us eternally tormented by yet more Vex.

An infinite regression of pain and madness inflicted upon every possible version of us in every possible world. Not because they hate us, or fear us, or want to punish us. But because they are indifferent and curious, and they will do every possible thing to us in every possible way.```

Command triggered by dovadah. Message link from · Aug 7, 2023, 11:10 PM

YAGPDB.xyz#8760 (ID 204255221017214977)

Embed Link to #📚lore-discussion

Command triggered by dovadah. Message link from · Feb 20, 2024, 1:15 AM

[dim minnow]

some of my favorites regarding the Vex

[unreal bison]

thank you, ill give this a read ❤️

[heavy ivy]

Would someone please give me the comic page where Sagira calls the Speaker objectively creepy?

[lime tiger]

is our ghost named ghost? or is that the name of what he is?
since all these other ghosts have names, like sundance etc

[heavy ivy]

I mean

[lime tiger]

cause they refer to our ghost, as ghost

[heavy ivy]

The main guy is called the Guardian so

It would make sense if his/her Ghost is called Ghost

[lime tiger]

yea, ik it just seems interesting but i also understand it

[heavy ivy]

Also I remember my friend arguing that Oryx in the campaign was stronger than he was in the Raid, I find that take super interesting

random thought

[blazing wasp]

Kinda, our ghost and our guardian are "blank slates" that way

we all play as "the guardian", but they're made like this to let you make your own headcanon of the guardian and their ghost

giving them your own name, and your ghost, as well as personality, backstory, etc

[heavy ivy]

That's the intent but I think he's asking what the actual canon is

[blazing wasp]

There isnt a established confirmed name for our guardian nor our ghost besides "guardian" and "ghost", intentionally so.

[lime tiger]

ok, I figured that was the case, cause thats what I had thought the whole time, until i heard him called ghost just rn, it clicked that, "hey all these other ones have a name"

ok. new ADHD thought

whats the deal with elsie. if shes from a dif timeline, what happens to our timelines elsie?

[blazing wasp]

Its not timeline in the parallel universe sense, but in a past/future sense, she probably just replaces past elsie every time

shes always sent back to around the time cayde becomes the hunter vanguard i believe? or when they "kill" taniks for the first time

[lime tiger]

ok. so elsie from our future, goes back to before our past, and each time she fails, she just retries kinda

[blazing wasp]

Not willingly, but yes

shes forcibly sent back to the past when she dies or i believe when the traveler dies?

[lime tiger]

ironically thats one of the ones I can sorta think doesnt cause a paradox. since she was sent from a future that lost, its not implausible that a future that wins can send her back too.

[lime tiger]

ah, well that kinda screws that idea then

[chrome fog]

“Dark Ether infused with dead Eliksni”

[chrome fog]

Just in a Groundhog Day loop, this time it’s sticking because 1) she hasn’t died yet and 2) Traveler hasn’t died yet

[lime tiger]

ok

[short bane]

Guys why is there a pink triangle on the big white circle now

[broken relic]

Did we ever get a follow up on Mithrax’s fireteam being assigned to Crow

[jagged badge]

In Lightfall, the Witness pursued an entity called the Veil. Using our Ghost to forge a connection between the Veil and the Traveler, the Witness carved a portal to the Traveler’s “Pale Heart”, within which it planned to use the Traveler’s Light to reshape reality to achieve its Final Shape

[short bane]

Hmm i see

[sand sigil]

hello guys

[jagged badge]

Hello

[plain bronze]

is Kataxiia called the Tormentor of the Ahamkara because he torments Ahamkara or he torments for Ahamkara

[chrome fog]

1. no Ahamkara at this point would be alive for them to create a tormentor, so the former/alternative is that they are made with some sort of Ahamkara parts
2. if they are from Final Shape, remember the pins, no spoilers til the 11th

[eager trout]

Is the Veil sentient like the Traveler?

[dim minnow]

presumably

though the Witness may have done something to subdue it previously

[shadow crypt]

What’s the veil in simple terms

And when’s the last time failsafe has done something

[eager trout]

Big fungus

[dim minnow]

Cosmic Collective Conciousness

[dim minnow]

a long time ago, but that will change soon

[eager trout]

Witness (with the Guardian's appearance): "We"

Guardian: "Who is we???"

[shadow crypt]

long time ago like during the red war?

CoO?

[dim minnow]

like 3 years ago maybe during FotL where she told Glint where the Headless Ones came from

actual story relevance other than seasonal events would be Forsaken where she mourned Cayde's death and was later put into our head during the Last Wish raid

[eager trout]

How is the Witness able to affect the physical world using only the Darkness?

[shadow crypt]

Oh ok

[jade pelican]

The same way the traveler can grow plants instantly like on the pyramid ships or how it terraformed countless planets like Venus or mars

The umbrella reasoning of “space magic do funny thing.”

[empty fern]

Nuh uh

Traveler main thing is the physical world

Tho it’s probably not just using darkness, as it has a whole fleet of homeworld tech

[chrome fog]

Universe black box of all thoughts and consciousnesses

[chrome fog]

Paracausality is all about changing reality to be as you desire

[heavy ivy]

Is there actually a lore entry which clearly defines Paracausality with the lowest possibility for misinterpretations?

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/the-hidden-dossier
https://imgur.com/a/d2-shadowkeep-ce-c-ph-LwZwi8K

Also check some of these messages
#📚lore-discussion message

@trim grotto do we have any sort of write up on Paracausality as a whole or just the various expressions of Paracausality only?

[heavy ivy]

Thank you will check later!

[trim grotto]

The short answer is as Seth laid out in the handbook

Linear physics cause to effect, causal
Parallel system cause to effect, paracausal - literally, parallel causality
No known connection of cause to effect, acausal

[chrome fog]

There is the Anthem Anathema but otherwise there’s no real explanation as to the source of Paracausality

(/there is the explanation given in Unveiling but that’s less reliable)

[mellow ridge]

/weapons

[trim grotto]

...pardon me?

[empty fern]

Shhhhh, he’s cooking

[crystal zinc]

Are we allowed to talk about TFS lore

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[crystal zinc]

Everyone’s talking about the day one raid there :(

[jagged badge]

[raw hazel]

Yeah spoiler week is always rough

[eager trout]

What element does Drifter normally use?

[dim minnow]

he doesn't like using his Light too much, but I'd say Solar

best one to cook with

and I cite this as a legitimate reason

[analog torrent]

who's the masked guy

[dim minnow]

just a random Shadow of Yor

[chrome fog]

Also his Solar coin flip

[alpine loom]

ive been going through d1 concepts and stuff and destiny seems like a way cooler story back then

like how everything is so eerie and mysterious and most stuff is just hella vague

like the traveler and the darkness seems almost lovecraftian to an extent

concept art goes absolutely crazy too

[analog torrent]

Are baseline exos more physically capable than baseline humans and awoken? I’ve always assumed they were (last days on kraken mare seems to confirm this) but idk for sure

[fast yew]

realistically it still is

id say a lot of the pale heart architecture leans into that mysterious aspect, especially combined with the music

im sure after TFS bungie will cook up some new mysterious stuff aswell to build a new big bad guy

[plain bronze]

Do yall think threadlings have feelings

are they sentient

[jade pelican]

I feel it’s along the same lines as how the arc soul is said to be sentient in the lore for “Getaway Artist”.

[pearl basin]

do we have any lore from the raid yet?

i mean just from the streamers?

[acoustic trail]

whats the lost city

[fresh zephyr]

There’s some lore books on raid secrets

[marble stream]

I hope the whole final shape is not over after they beat the raid, i want some cool ending

[limber crest]

is the evaze lore video good to watch? i'm trying to watch all of the things that i missed

[stark fjord]

The best lore is those you find yourself tbh

2nd hand interpretations often have holes it’s best to find a viable source such as lore books

Also tbh the best person for lore is @trim grotto

[limber crest]

like for the actual story of destiny?

i just mean the entire campaign/story so far because I took a huge break from this game

[stark fjord]

Like gameplay or

[blazing wasp]

I'd recommend byf, but evaze isn't half bad if you exclude all and any theories

Still not getting the "calus will return from the presage thing as the witness" out of my head yet.

[trim grotto]

[trim grotto]

||Everything within the Pale Heart is formed from memories. The Lost City is a memory of the Last City.||

[broken relic]

Was there ever a follow up on Mithrax’s old fireteam being assigned to Crow

[trim grotto]

There's something besides water in their hands. Cautiously, wonderingly, they lift their hands out of the pool and find green. The same verdancy as Strand, the same parallel strings and helical shifts. Only this also seems to be something living?

It skitters over their hand, up their arm to their shoulder, leaving the sense of warmth in its wake. The Warlock stays very still as the little Strand-creature brushes against their cheek and then simply vanishes, a lingering hint of green and a sense of company the only concept that it was there in the first place.```
This is all we know of them, really. Do with that what you will.

[trim grotto]

Actually, no, I don't believe there was.

[broken relic]

Dang it

[trim grotto]

Given their purpose of immortality and conceptual evolution, one would assume so. But, there hasn't exactly been a data-backed graph of actions.

[broken relic]

What’s Aunor up to these days

[trim grotto]

Complaining about the use of Darkness becoming normalised, mostly.

[chrome fog]

Wait til the 11th

[chrome fog]

We dooo have Dovadah’s quick rundown of all the major lore beats in the pins, though they are fairly broad it provides enough to know what we’ve been doing for the past couple of years

[limber crest]

the issue i've found with byfs video is that there aren't any chapters in the video. i like to play through the campaign and then use the chapters on evaze's video to continue from where i left off in game, but i'll still probably try his video and just figure it out manually

[limber crest]

i'll also give these a read

[blazing wasp]

That's fair

[little gorge]

the what

how did he even justify that

[fair gate]

He puts time stamps in the description I think

[limber crest]

I think the d1 message is linked to the wrong thing, since it's the exact same as the d2y1 message

ah it doesn't matter, I see it's above that one

[eternal lantern]

Is it just me or all witness statue look like female

Any explaination behind this

Where are all the lore nerd

[blazing wasp]

Cant really go much into detail about this until the 11th

[chrome fog]

As for anything prior to Final Shape, there was never any elaboration

Sooo

Wait til the 11th

[fresh zephyr]

So does darkness based abilities give paracasual strength ie inhuman capabilities in strength or speed?

[blazing wasp]

Neither dark nor light inherently give stuff like this

you can be stronger using them through various means, but they dont directly boost your own strength

if you wanna lift a boulder we know at least that the light offers a telekinesis of sorts given ikora

as for speed, the closest we have that fits your bill is something like blink, or grapple

[eternal lantern]

Tbh they still look hot

[maiden matrix]

who do we think the next big bad of destiny will be? think the 9 will get more involved?

[empty fern]

No idea

[ember storm]

Garfield

[alpine loom]

maybe the witness' race was a matriarchy?

[raw hazel]

Sadly stuck in spoiler chat for a few more days

[ember storm]

but we can talk about Garfield

[eternal lantern]

Ofc

[chrome fog]

Only 3 more days

[eternal lantern]

Lets find out

[stiff hull]

So uh why is ikora bald

[empty fern]

Cause

[chrome fog]

People can be bald

[eager trout]

Either an accident or she cut it because it's easier to use Solar without burning your hair if you don't have hair

[blazing wasp]

Helmet

[fiery copper]

She likes being bald???

[blazing wasp]

If hair burning was an issue, they'd just wear a helmet.

They likely just want to be bald

[stiff hull]

Huh interesting

[ember storm]

you can tell it’s just shaved

it’s not like she’s totally hairless

[chrome fog]

What two convoluted ways to explain a bald person

[analog torrent]

I woke up seconds ago from a dream where I was browsing r/destinylore and I found a loretab that started with the letters D__ F__ that covered Cayde and may be related to the plot of the “Hunter of the Heart” book he read and used a fire-related adjective to describe the hunter, possibly spitfire or fiery

Have I gone insane or does this loretab really exist

[stiff hull]

Bro dreams of destiny lore

[chrome fog]

Ain’t as bad as the fandom wide Bionicle Dream

Maybe as bad

Auspicious tidings for your lore ventures

[fiery copper]

The what lmao

[blazing wasp]

ive only dreamt about playing destiny 2 but never anything else

i recalled attempting to check the eververse store, but my brain couldnt handle that, and i woke up

[analog torrent]

I can’t keep living like this
Hunter of the Heart has been driving me insane for a year because two separate people said that the warlock in it was male but the only two loretabs I’ve found talking about it are the og Hunter of the Heart and the one where Banshee is gifted a copy of it and neither of them mention the warlock’s gender so there’s either a third loretab that doesn’t directly quote Hunter of the Heart or it doesn’t exist and those people were on copium
Why does this detail even matter?
Why would they say something like that and not leave a source?
How did two people come to the same conclusion about two obscure loretabs?

[analog torrent]

I've had several destiny dreams lmao lemme go get them

4/15/24

Me and mack ian kaitlyn and evalyn are living in a large snowy suburban barn thing with skimmers. I summon evalyn’s bed, which is a cot skimmer thing

I am in Boston in a fancy hotel. A friendly agent and a friend from stuy are here. I manifest guardian powers and accidentally kill 50 people, so I flee to another east coast city. I see through the eyes of a woman I nearly killed and a cop so I know they’re chasing me.

My agent and my friend meet up with me in my new hotel room. I turn in the AC. I ask her to help me, to keep guard for me, I explain my situation to them and that now that I’m a murderer I’ll do more shady things to pay them, and they agree to keep guard. A green cloak isn’t exactly inconspicuous so I hide it in evalyn’s closet. I also put the paradise lost book out of sight because only serial killers read that.

As we put out computers down and start working, the alarm goes off and I wake up seamlessly

2/24/24

Mr K teaching cybersecurity and shows gaming videos on his monitor, I start eating my printed destiny 2 cards, get 1/3 though before he walks over and tells me to stop

8/16/23 long ass dream about hunger games on the high seas

...The inside of our ship looks like a darker and monochromatic version of the indoor basement area of the Destiny 2 pvp map Rusted Lands.

I am on another team’s raft, and they have a modern tent pitched up. There are two of their guys inside, career criminals. I have a black shotgun that fades to a light teal gradient at the end, tendrils of light teal mist also coming off the end. It resembles the Destiny 2 shotgun Until Its Return...

[fast tapir]

i think

i think you might need to take a break from destiny

[deft bison]

** who wins lore accurate guardians or lore accurate teno **

[alpine loom]

tenno probably

[raw hazel]

ughhh can it be tuesday yet??

i wanna talk about STUFF

[prime rover]

whats the new vexcalibur lookin ace ornament's name a reference to

[fast tapir]

there is stuff we can talk about now!!

like uhh

i dont know what we can talk about

[prime rover]

okay nvm i just have brain damage i figured it out

[ember storm]

#1247252842465460225

[strong crane]

lol lore chat doesnt count?

[empty fern]

It does

(Also stasis is not light focused, which is why Elsie can use it, anyone can use it if they learn it (and strand))

Damnit waltz

[lofty badge]

we allowed to talk about final shape lore spoilers here? since people barely awnser lore questions in #1247252842465460225

[trim grotto]

No.

Which is why this should be deleted, actually.

[strong crane]

Naur

If mods care they’ll do it

[trim grotto]

Or you could just do it yourself to respect the spoiler rule.

[lofty badge]

what about this then?

[lofty badge]

sad we have to wait longer before we can decuss shit here

[strong crane]

IMO lore talks contain spoilers 🤷🏽‍♂️

[lofty badge]

i mean..even some people have not played older stuff

[strong crane]

Mods will delete it if they feel different idc

[lofty badge]

like the sunset dlcs

and red war

[trim grotto]

Your opinion is irrelevant. The mods made the rule here, they already feel different. That's why there's a #1247252842465460225. It's also in the pinned messages.

[candid inlet]

xovenetia (ID 516552086205235230)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
As we are nearing the launch of Final Shape, I’d like to remind you all that any newly revealed (lore) content will have to be discussed in #1247252842465460225 until <t:1718125200:f>.

Failure to follow this rule will be met with mutes, sharing leaks will result in removal from the server. Enjoy the expansion.

Command triggered by maelstronnar. Message link from · Jun 4, 2024, 2:56 PM

[strong crane]

Womp womp

[lofty badge]

😔 oh well we will have to wait for the next three days

[noble shard]

this'll be your last and only warning on this

no spoilers

[reef salmon]

^

[strong crane]

Gotcha

Already got my answer

[noble shard]

or it's a mute for a very unspecified amount of time :)

[heavy vortex]

Hello

[reef salmon]

#1247252842465460225 exists for a reason please keep em there for those who wish to remain unspoiled

[empty fern]

Soon

[rustic ocean]

mael i want an experts view

whats the winnower, gardener, traveler, veil whats the similarities and/or differences

[empty fern]

What have you done

[rustic ocean]

??

[empty fern]

[rustic ocean]

what

[trim grotto]

The Winnower and Gardener? Concepts, metaphors, described in the Unveiling texts. We don't know much explicitly, leaving much of it up to interpretation.
Personally, I'm currently running with the idea that these are roles to be given or taken. The Traveler is a gardener, the Witness became a winnower.

The Traveler and Veil are two sides of the same coin. An avatar of Light and an avatar of Darkness. Some theories suggest they may have once been one. The Traveler is master of the physical realm, a terraformer and tender, whereas the Veil is a crux of the realm of the mind.

[jagged badge]

Gardener is the Witness’ civilisation’s term for the Traveler. As the Eliksni called it the Great Machine, and we called it the Traveler.
The Winnower is a bit more tricky. It’s a name we learned in Unveiling, texts gained from Eris Morn translating the artifact we receive from the Witness in Shadowkeep. Unveiling is deemed as fanciful propaganda by the Witness

[chrome fog]

Every single Bionicle fan has reported of a dream where they find bionicle sets on some toy store shelves, and while it ranges from sets from the various year releases or a new one they dreamt up, it is always extremely visceral how accurate it feels to the irl experience

[rustic ocean]

Is the winnower supposed to be considered “bad” and the gardener “evil”?

Does the veil destroy things as it seems to be the complete opposite of the traveler which creates

[rustic ocean]

right, was the witness the first known civilisation the traveler went to

[jagged badge]

Sorta. The Traveler seemed to have been buried beneath their world’s crust

[fiery copper]

power scaling is fucking stupid and i hate it

...

but the answer is tenno

[analog torrent]

hey fellas is grimoire 4 5 or 6 better

gonna buy one today

[chrome fog]

The principles and ideals of the Gardener are very much only to our benefit, that being freedom to dictate one’s path in life, rather than being restricted to a deterministic inevitable fate. Unveiling purposefully frames this as a “bad thing” because 1) the source is from the Witness, who whilst it’s values do not perfectly align with the Winnower’s, has a commonality in their “I know best for all” perspective to existence, and the book itself is meant to push us towards it side

[safe galleon]

isn't the winnower implied to be the veil? ahsa says '[the precursor species sought] a winnower to shape the garden' just before she talks about the veil

[weak prawn]

Hey lore gods I have some questions why did savathun wish to enter the traveler? where has mara been after Being free from oryx? Is rulk dead dead?

[empty fern]

(Don’t know)
Mars was in her own ascendant plane I think (even tho oryx attacked it)
And yes rhulk is dead dead

[harsh sedge]

In the final mission the oppening cutscene behind the drifter is that shin malphur

[jagged badge]

#1247252842465460225

[empty fern]

Dunno

[stark fjord]

did u guys know of the hunter who has an army of ghosts?

[stark fjord]

IS IT?

WAIT IM REWATCHING

thats a default dummy

[empty fern]

Kek

[analog torrent]

micah-10? yeah she's based

[stark fjord]

wasnt there a ghost who could use thundercrash? imagine if micah just trained them to do supers

imagine how badass that would be

one ghost does chaos reach the other does blade dance

[empty fern]

What? What ghost used thundercrash (are you talking about drifters ghost making a hole in someone’s head?)

[stark fjord]

it was in the uh

[empty fern]

[stark fjord]

spire of the watcher lore books

there was a guardian who didnt have a connection to the light however their ghost did or something like that

[empty fern]

I see, @jagged badge I need authentication

[stark fjord]

yah found it

the tm-moss armour

all im saying is

if micas swarm had that ability

imagine if several ghosts could collaborate to conjure up a nova bomb the size of the traveller

[empty fern]

Mayhaps

[jagged badge]

The Ghost isn’t using a super

[stark fjord]

aw

there goes my 900 page essay about how we should militarize unwedded ghosts

[jagged badge]

No Name: Moss-2's body shutters, his eyes sync, then he 
unleashes a shockwave of Nova Warp erasure, detonating the 
shield of the Minotaur pinning him and devouring it entirely
to stitch his wound. The Warlock rises like a marionette, floating in a violet singularity.```

Moss has some sort of implant that lets his Ghost essentially puppeteer him

[stark fjord]

so not the ghost

[empty fern]

“Unweeded ghost” that goes hard

[stark fjord]

dang it

[broken quartz]

Are we every gonna know what the traveler actually is?

[empty fern]

[stark fjord]

an avatar of light

[fiery copper]

Space ball

[stark fjord]

that or its a drone sent by the gardener

its all hypothesis

all we know is

its nice :3

[broken quartz]

I just think it's a little silly to be at the end of the "light and dark saga" and still have no answers

[stark fjord]

maybe in destiny 3 we get hints to the gardener and winnower saga

[fiery copper]

Me when someone says the traveler is different from the gardener

[chrome fog]

This was the thought as the Veil was revealed but we don’t know enough about the Veil to be sure. The only connection they have is that they are partnered with a being called the Gardener, as that is another name for the Traveler

[chrome fog]

Just in case for situations like the one present. She had sussed out the Witness’ plan as it approached her to offer her the position of Disciple, and as the Hive God of Cunning, it’s part of her nature to account and accommodate for each and every possibility, though she is still susceptible to mistakes

[chrome fog]

Ghost and Guardian duo who has a weird neurolink thing going on, the ghost took control of the Guardian

[stark fjord]

heres the thing

i dont think the veil is the traveller but dark

its more so a peice of the traveller

the part of it rejected

its darkside

[chrome fog]

It’s been considered moreso a Darkness counterpart to the Traveler in-universe

Whilst not a direct parallel to the Traveler’s consistent terraforming and uplifting civilizations, the Veil has been described as a sort of universal black box of every consciousness

[ember storm]

Osiris himself theorized the two were part of a greater whole but nothing’s really come of it yet

[analog torrent]

Does anyone have a link to where a bungie writer said the kid that was rezzed by Tianshi is Shin Malphur? I'm having a reddit argument

[stark fjord]

Yeah the last thing we need are children fighting wars

😭

[zenith pollen]

Hi, new player, should I watch a story recap up until the Nightfall DLC then start playing from there?

[stark fjord]

My favourite dlc nightfall the ordeal

[chrome fog]

If you would like, we do also have a summary of most of the major story beats in the pins by our lovely Dovadah

Those videos can also be helpful if you want, and there is a timeline in-game that helps very veeery quickly get you caught up

[soft copper]

Shin Malphur in game when

we get him to kill crow

hear me out

whole season is hunting him down

hire me

Or we help him hunt down the shadows of yor or some shit

I just want my poncho man

[chrome fog]

• Retired
• Shut up, Crow has already proven himself it’s been fucking five years since Uldren and there has been MORE THAN ENOUGH focus on Crow moving away from who Uldren was when Uldren killed Cayde
• Uldren when he killed Cayde was under a lot of fucking mental fuckery
• Shadows of Yor already dissolved which is why Shjn retired, the group he made to gather all the fucking edgelords has successfully dissolved on their own when he scared the shit out of them

[soft copper]

But

Poncho?

[chrome fog]

Get a fucking cape

[soft copper]

Poncho clear

ong tho I require shin malphur in game rather than lore books

[chrome fog]

Re.tire.ed.

[soft copper]

I’ll get him out

I’ll gaslight him in game

[chrome fog]

Has no Light and has been dealing with shit since the early City Age which has been a handful of centuries ago

[analog torrent]

Counterpoint

• relevant to #1247252842465460225 developments
• please bungie it would be so cool please please

[ember storm]

shin is probably a decrepit old man by now

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/donald-duck-looney-tunes-angry-mad-throwing-a-fit-gif-11925642

[soft copper]

decrepit old man with a sick ass hand cannon tho

[chrome fog]

We have it

Our Last Word is the og Last Word

[soft copper]

I’ll give it back

[chrome fog]

Reforged pieces, part of the whole quest

[soft copper]

Bring in the trading system Bungie and I’ll trade him it for the poncho

[soft copper]

my point exactly

[ember storm]

where’s the poncho thing coming from

[soft copper]

Shin wears a poncho

I want a poncho

Simple as

[ember storm]

says who

[chrome fog]

If this is Final Shape shit put it in #1247252842465460225

Wait til the 11th

[soft copper]

every piece of lore and the literal picture of him that pops up on the golden gun stuff when u select it

[chrome fog]

Wheeerreee

[soft copper]

The old super selection screen

[ember storm]

that’s not Shin

[soft copper]

It is

[chrome fog]

That’s not

[soft copper]

The guy literally had last word in his hand

[chrome fog]

It’s not

[fiery copper]

Stop fanboying over a lame destiny oc that breaks established lore in basically every tab he's featured in

[ember storm]

the golden gun super model is literally just the last word model because that’s the popular legend

and that art is also specifically not a poncho

[chrome fog]

Every Hunter summons a Last Word Golden Gun with the six shot Golden Gun variant

That’s just a random Hunter

[soft copper]

Lots of shin malphur concept art and etc includes him wearing the poncho

[analog torrent]

Come to think of it I don't think there's an official piece of art with his poncho, it's just popular fanon

[soft copper]

No x

[soft copper]

but

either way

I want a poncho

[ember storm]

what concept art

[chrome fog]

Shin is cool but also I am grumpy and this is making my temples hurt

[blazing wasp]

i have doubts this concept art is official given that bungie has explicitly stated shin wont appear ingame.

we will not see shin

as intended

[analog torrent]

the one on the left is fanart
the one on the right is jaren ward (also fanart)

[soft copper]

I will be happy if he doesn’t appear but I receive a poncho

[soft copper]

That shit still counts as a poncho

[analog torrent]

wait fr where

[chrome fog]

It’s not canon

[analog torrent]

fanart and not official

[chrome fog]

Its fan works

[ember storm]

literally neither are official art

[soft copper]

yeah but

poncho x

[chrome fog]

Congrats

[ember storm]

he doesnt have a poncho

[soft copper]

I still want a poncho either way mern

fire drip

[fiery copper]

poncho

[soft copper]

Wrong

[chrome fog]

Then rage in #✨destiny-discussion or #👗destiny-fashion

[fiery copper]

Hold up the file is uploading

[chrome fog]

Crow has a Poncho

[soft copper]

Boom

Give me crows poncho now

[chrome fog]

Barely

[chrome fog]

No

[soft copper]

😦

[fiery copper]

"Poncho"

[soft copper]

Size of that shoe bro

Can I get them long ass boots too

[chrome fog]

Do Spire

[fiery copper]

[blazing wasp]

damn you beat me to it

[chrome fog]

Watcher Spire

[ember storm]

it’s not really a poncho though

[fiery copper]

Got the mf Air Force 1776s

[chrome fog]

It’s a cape either way but you might be satisfied

[soft copper]

Gonna go from guardian to Sire

[analog torrent]

I thought the golden gun art was him

[fiery copper]

Nope

[ember storm]

it’s not

none of them are specific characters

[analog torrent]

wack

[soft copper]

I would still want a poncho

poncho and long ass boots

[fiery copper]

None of the class art pictures are specific people, more concepts of "this is what the subclass is like"

Embodiments of the vibes

[soft copper]

What if

[chrome fog]

Again. Spire of the Watcher

[soft copper]

We turned him into a gun

[chrome fog]

Get the western shit

[soft copper]

U don’t get a poncho off spire

[chrome fog]

You’re kidding

[soft copper]

I’ve got alll of it anyway

[ember storm]

who

[chrome fog]

Neither is the “Poncho” you’re referring to

[soft copper]

Turn him into last word part 2 living being edition

[chrome fog]

It’s a cape

[chrome fog]

Fucking Golden Gun

Just be Solar Hunter

[analog torrent]

In that case, sorry guys I don't make the rules, Shin Malphur looks like this