📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

Nokris was disowned by Oryx because he was weaker than Crota

[fiery copper]

I imagine it would be like a wile e coyote situation. Crota runs directly off a cliff, looks down, then at the camera, and shrugs before falling

[jagged badge]

She’s the God of Cunning

[dim minnow]

ehh

probably not

Crota was her favorite though

[rotund wyvern]

It wasn’t cuz he got worm god power

[jagged badge]

She tricked, cursed and killed Nezarec for example. So she’s plenty strong, but also uses her cunning to win

[rotund wyvern]

Isnt nezarec a disciple and a raid boss tho

[dim minnow]

him communign with Xol and gaining Necromancy was what ultimately led to Oryx casting him away completely

[dim minnow]

Nezarec has a tendency to die and come back

he has at least 4 tombs

[rotund wyvern]

So he’s immortal lol

[jagged badge]

Slight tip, what type of boss they are in game does not necessarily affect their actual lore strength and relation to each other

[rotund wyvern]

Ok lol

[fiery copper]

It was because he was doing necromancy, which went against oryx's policy of "you either do it right the first time, or you die and that's it."

(By "do it right" he meant KILL LITERALLY EVERY OTHER BEING IN EXISTENCE)

[jagged badge]

Otherwise you’d be suggesting that Atraks is stronger than Xol just because she’s a raid boss and he’s a strike boss

[rotund wyvern]

Are all hive evil or some good

[fiery copper]

We have not seen an allied hive

[rotund wyvern]

People say savathun will fight witness with us

[fiery copper]

Unless you count fynch

I do not

[dim minnow]

looking through the lens of human morality, the Hive are evil

all of them

[rotund wyvern]

What species is riven

[dim minnow]

Ahamkara

[fiery copper]

She probably will, idk

She's not an ally though, we just have a single common enemy and then we go back to murderizing each other.

[sly berry]

Does anyone know where Archie came from I mean is there lore

[rotund wyvern]

How does savathun keep coming back to life lol

[fiery copper]

She is (was) an Ahamkara, a shapeshifting dragon that grants genie wishes.

[gentle geyser]

Bro hasn’t played or watched anything on witch queen

[rotund wyvern]

Ain’t no way that’s a dragon

[rotund wyvern]

I did but I didn’t understand lol

[jagged badge]

She was resurrected by a Ghost

[fiery copper]

Idk

serpentine body, armored hide, breathes fire

Good enough for me

[rotund wyvern]

Since her ghost isn’t dead she isn’t dead correct

[fiery copper]

She got rezzed again at the end of Season of the Witch

Don't worry, I forgot it happened too

[rotund wyvern]

Didn’t play that

[jagged badge]

Then we killed her again and she was resurrected again. And then we killed her again, her Ghost fled and we took her body for years. Until last season when Eris had her resurrected. Then killed her again. Then she was resurrected again

[fiery copper]

She is currently alive and well

[jagged badge]

And then Saint killed her over and over and over

But she’s alive rn

We have Immaru though, as insurance

[fiery copper]

Immaru is in vanguard Crybaby Jail currently, for being a Crybaby.

[rotund wyvern]

Did savathun/immaru kill xivu or did it never actually happen

[fiery copper]

Xivu is alive

[jagged badge]

Eris Morn used Savathûn’s Hive power to sever Xivu from her Throne World

But we never directly attacked Xivu because she still hasn’t shown up yet

[rotund wyvern]

Would the three hive gods get anillhated by the witness?

[sly berry]

Yes

[fiery copper]

The finale of season of the Witch was Immaru rezzing savathun, and Eris immediately shanking her in the chest. Eris absorbed sav's LITERAL BILLIONS OF YEARS OF HIVE POWER, and blipped xivu's throne world out of existence (normal source of hive immortality)

[fiery copper]

Yes.

[rotund wyvern]

3v1 would still be a loss

[fiery copper]

Yes.

[sly berry]

Does anyone know where Archie came from I mean is there lore

[empty fern]

Witness sorta made the hive gods so yea it makes sense

[rotund wyvern]

What is the warmind I never finished that dlc

[jagged badge]

I think Rasputin made him?

[empty fern]

Ana brays side project

[empty fern]

Oh

[jagged badge]

Rasputin

[shadow crypt]

How did Elsie Bray end up in a time loop?

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/rasputin-destiny2-warmind-gif-18628971

[shadow crypt]

Seeing all the futures and shit

[fiery copper]

You could take the entirety of destiny canon, roll it into a ball, and throw it at the witness, and it would have a good chance of winning. As it currently stands, there is no logical way we could defeat the witness without some insane shit going down inside the pale heart.

[empty fern]

Do we actually know?

[sly berry]

Interesting when did Archie get added

[empty fern]

Seraph

[rotund wyvern]

Winnoer would destroy it

[fiery copper]

Revision Zero mission

[jagged badge]

And yet, sitting here in the shadow of his sacrifice, Ana finds that she wants to remember him by the one thing not built for war. A canine AI, created for no other purpose than companionship. One that has made a home for himself in the Tower, greeting everyone he meets on his daily walks.```

[jagged badge]

We don’t know that there is a Winnower

The Witness may be the metaphorical Winnower

[fiery copper]

Winnower may or may not exist, I haven't kept up to date on whether or not Unveiling is even canon (it might be so much of a stretched metaphor that it isn't even useful information)

[jagged badge]

That or it wishes to fill that role

[rotund wyvern]

I thought that was a primordial god that was the strongest being in the destiny verse

[empty fern]

Rasputin really over here repaying ana for all she’s done

[sly berry]

The gardener and winnower might just be witness propaganda

[fiery copper]

For the longest time, we thought the witness could BE the winnower.

We were kinda right?

https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI

[jagged badge]

Unveiling would have you believe the Winnower is creation-myth type god. Unveiling was given to us by the Witness though, and is untrustworthy in that it is just propaganda

[rotund wyvern]

Was only saying that cuz vs battle wiki threads were saying Gardner and winnoer were the only high 1-A characters in destiny

[fiery copper]

Battle wiki is dum

[jagged badge]

Well Battle Wiki threads are stupid

Power scaling in general is tbh

[rotund wyvern]

We get our tiers from them lol

[rotund wyvern]

I like it lol

[fiery copper]

What tiers

[rotund wyvern]

The power scaling tiers

[fiery copper]

The only tiers I know about are the ones I cry into my pillow nightly because I'm not a cute anime girl irl

[gentle geyser]

The witness one shotting 3 guardians while being hit with a beam of pure light

[rotund wyvern]

That’s called being a another level guardians ain’t that strong lol

[gentle geyser]

Yes but hes gonna be the raid boss and we are going to fight him meaning unless there is a really good explanation, its a stretch if we win

[rotund wyvern]

Probably gonna be weakened like oryx lol

[gentle geyser]

Oryx is much weaker in comparison

[rotund wyvern]

Probably gonna have use some super light from the traveler or some Shit

[fiery copper]

If you mean like
"Building level
"City level"
"Country level"

Those aren't very useful here.

Destiny has a bit of a gap between bosses. On one hand you have a final raid boss that is literally just a robot mannequin of a fat guy, and then a strike boss ornstein and smough duo that were on the verge of disintegrating the entire solar system.

[gentle geyser]

You mean like what the traveler tried

[fiery copper]

Destiny 2, 2: Light Harder.

[rotund wyvern]

I’m talking about multiversal to boundless

[gentle geyser]

A fallen exo putting up more of a fight than a god of pain

[jagged badge]

Personally I think those are just goofy lmao

[rotund wyvern]

Your just mad cuz korra is fodder lol

[jagged badge]

💀

[gentle geyser]

Wild

[jagged badge]

Power scalers

[raw hazel]

Always power scalers

[jagged badge]

Fr

Mfw I care more about character and narrative than smashing characters together like a kid playing with action figures

[rotund wyvern]

I would stop power scaling but my friends and my twitter days were full of me power scaling

[rotund wyvern]

I wanna see how strong characters stack up to goku

[fiery copper]

WHO WOULD WIN:

Nezarec, final god of pain and source of all tormentors. Would-be wielder of Light and Dark, bent on the destruction of all existence.

VS

The fucking scourge of the past sparrow race servitor that they literally just lit on fire and called it a day

[gentle geyser]

We’ll beat the witness because its our Destiny 2

[raw hazel]

I mean it can be fun, but imo you've better off doing in such spaces meant for it

[rotund wyvern]

Does strength/power scaling not equate to lore discussion lol

[jagged badge]

Not really

[gentle geyser]

Kinda yea because a being can be insanely broken in lore and be completely different in gameplay

[rotund wyvern]

Only channel in the server that fits that category

[fiery copper]

"NO, HOW CAN THIS BE?? IT IS MY FATE TO DEFEAT YOU, GUARDIAN!!!"

"Well you see, witness. This is my destiny, too."

[jagged badge]

Fights are decided by more than simply strength anyway

As we see with Rhulk

[gentle geyser]

One of the more difficult raid bosses in d2 history is just a cabal

[jagged badge]

We beat him because he was cocky, not because we were stronger

[rotund wyvern]

Hax>strength lol

[fiery copper]

Shoutout to Val Cau'or, literally a lower military rank than WHETHER WE WANTED IT OR NOT-

Hey question to powerscaler

If rock beats scissors, and paper beats rock

Paper should also beat scissors, no?

[rotund wyvern]

No

[fiery copper]

Scissors < Rock < Paper

[fiery copper]

That's just how it works man I don't make the rules

[raw hazel]

By the transitive property it should

[rotund wyvern]

That would be a logical fallacy or some shit

[fiery copper]

It's simple power scaling

[gentle geyser]

Power scaling depends on the person in charge of the media

[rotund wyvern]

If the game works like it does then the scaling would work the same imo

[rotund wyvern]

I’m not very good at power scaling lol

[gentle geyser]

Power scaling doesn’t apply in gameplay

Look at nezarac

[rotund wyvern]

It does in games like asuras wrath

[jagged badge]

Look at Navôta

[empty fern]

Desperate measures
SHAW HAN WAS IN ON IT

[raw hazel]

Well this isn't Asura's Wrath

[fiery copper]

Now take that logic and give it to something a bit more complex, like pokemon types. Psychic beats Fighting beats Dark, so Psychic must also beat Dark, right?

No.

Now take that and make it a bit more complex, where you DON'T EVEN KNOW the type matchups. DOES EXO TYPE RESIST UHHH PSION TYPE???? WHAT HELP

Power scaling doesn't work in destiny.

[gentle geyser]

Shaw han gets clapped by a strike boss

(Hunter behavior)

[rotund wyvern]

Power scaling doesn’t make sense anyway so it can apply in destiny

[empty fern]

To be fair
I did omniguls strike in d1 solo, and holy shit, I can see why he got clapped

[fiery copper]

I dont have an issue with powerscaling in general, thats cool, like what you like

It's not really
Lore

Ya know?

also after you see the 17th person ask whether or not oryx could beat up goku, it gets a bit tired

the answer is yes by the way

[empty fern]

Kek

[rotund wyvern]

You need lore to power scale especially in the anime fate and the nasu verse

[empty fern]

Anime moment

Forever your downfall

[gentle geyser]

Power scaling is stupid because it can change at any moment, power scaling isn’t needed for gameplay

[fiery copper]

You need lore to power scale, yes.

Powerscaling itself is not lore.

[rotund wyvern]

Uh acutally capsule corp goku beats oryx

[fiery copper]

Explode.

[empty fern]

Speaking of lore, does any vex portal just lead to the garden?

[next bobcat]

In-game? No

[empty fern]

Literally any vex portal in the world

[raw hazel]

The one on the moon does (if it's still working)

[fiery copper]

OH

YOU MEAN LIKE

[next bobcat]

Lore-wise or gameplay?

[empty fern]

Lore wise

[fiery copper]

"Can EVERY vex portal go to the garden"

[next bobcat]

Ah

[empty fern]

That works

[rotund wyvern]

I hate garden of revelation so idc

[raw hazel]

Oh no only specific ones

[jagged badge]

Salvation

[fiery copper]

The answer is a solid, resounding

"Eh probly"

[rotund wyvern]

That’s what I meant

[next bobcat]

Is galaxy pools canon?

[gentle geyser]

No

[empty fern]

You have less use that a a steamed potato

[shadow crypt]

It’s something bungie never used

[fiery copper]

I haven't seen a single dev mention it once

Or like

A single patch note

Anything

[rotund wyvern]

What is that

[gentle geyser]

Galaxy pools is out of bounds and not intended to be found

[empty fern]

Do we have any reason to visit the garden besides the black heart in d1 and the sanctified mind?

[fiery copper]

Hoo boy you're about to discover a whole ass Thing, and it's actually awesome

[rotund wyvern]

I’ve heard oryx is high outer so witness must be boundless

[fiery copper]

Look up "destiny galaxy pools" on youtube

[gentle geyser]

Power scaling bad

[rotund wyvern]

Think you meant good

[gentle geyser]

No

[empty fern]

No

About 76% of the people here will say it’s bad

[rotund wyvern]

Do you think the unveil was a lie that witness told us?

[fiery copper]

Power scaling bad

[gentle geyser]

Yes

[rotund wyvern]

Because their not anime fans lol

[fiery copper]

IM SURE THE BEING INTENT ON OUR DESTRUCTION HAS NO REASON TO STRETCH THE TRUTH

[empty fern]

I’m an anime fan, but it’s so stupid

[dim minnow]

I'm under the impression that while it is highly allegorical and biased, I think there is truth to it

[fiery copper]

The moment we get destiny edgerunners I will learn calligraphy and write a formal apology

[rotund wyvern]

Most anime fans like to know who beats who

[dim minnow]

mainly in regards to the Vex and the Black Garden

[empty fern]

[rotund wyvern]

So you think their is a god above witness?

[raw hazel]

Not really

[fiery copper]

Also I stg I did not watch the entirety of OG DRAGON BALL up through super just to get called a tourist

[empty fern]

Yea

The traveler, ish

[gentle geyser]

We literally don’t know and most likely not

If there was we would know by now

[rotund wyvern]

I didn’t like og dragon ball anime gonna read the manga tho

[rotund wyvern]

You are one if you don’t power scale

[jagged badge]

[jagged badge]

[fiery copper]

You make me feel tired.

[empty fern]

Recommend staying out of it this time

Trust me

[gentle geyser]

This is literally just you trying to use a stupid system to see how strong a character is instead of just understanding what they can do

[dim minnow]

well first you should know that the Winnower and Gardener are just metaphors

[gentle geyser]

Like isn’t the power to take directly from the witness

[fiery copper]

I wish that this meme was also mispelled, that would be 11/10

Yes

[empty fern]

Wait the travelers a metaphor?

[rotund wyvern]

Anime’s don’t straight out tell you so and so can destroy a multiverse or something higher than that

[dim minnow]

no, the Gardener in Unveiling is

[fiery copper]

The gardener is

[dim minnow]

so is the Winnower

[empty fern]

Ohh

[raw hazel]

I like to believe the lake was a metaphor

[dim minnow]

Traveler might not be the Unveiling Gardener anyways

[dim minnow]

IT IS NOT A METAPHOR

[empty fern]

Ashir mir definitely says it’s real

[gentle geyser]

This isn’t an anime, the witness quite literally is the source of multiple villains powers and has been established as being the most powerful foe

[fiery copper]

Taking is oryx using the Power to Move Worlds and same-day-shipping some poor schmuck directly to the witness, who then turns them into Taken.

[rotund wyvern]

You still need to be told if they can do something unless the lore provides they can do such feats by being above other beings

[gentle geyser]

If you have to be told they are better than another character you need to take a break from anime

[rotund wyvern]

I haven’t watched an anime In like 2 months lol

I’ve been reading manga

[gentle geyser]

Like, we know exactly what the witness can do, we know that the witness is the strongest enemy we’ve faced

[fiery copper]

Don't mess with anime fans
We scale to building-level trust us

[gentle geyser]

We still don’t even know how we are actually gonna beat the witness

[empty fern]

Corporate beats all
No sweat

[rotund wyvern]

No you scale to outer to high outer

[fiery copper]

Bungie fires the witness

[raw hazel]

I beat everything because I'm real and they're not

[fiery copper]

Whatever you wish, O Player Mine

Hol up lemme get the lore tab

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/skull-of-dire-ahamkara

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/claws-of-ahamkara

This one too

[noble shard]

Keep this channel for lore discussion. If you want to talk about anime. please go to #☀️off-topic-discussion

[raw hazel]

This does have me curious on how things with Riven's brood will go

[rotund wyvern]

Ok

[fiery copper]

Furina spotted-

[fiery copper]

At least one of them is going to be super meta and fourth wall breaking and ISNT THIS COOL GUYS WE'RE REFERENCING THE FACT THAT THE VIDEO GAME IS A VIDEO GAME

[raw hazel]

ka;jfiea;

[empty fern]

I know the witness likes freezing stuff in time but like, is this really necessary?

[raw hazel]

Yes

[fiery copper]

Yes

It's sick as fuck

[raw hazel]

Right?

If I could do that I probably would too

[empty fern]

And another note

[fiery copper]

You're decorating your world-ending fleet of darkness, are you gonna just put a glass coffee table in the middle of the room?

[raw hazel]

I would tbh

But it would be a funky darkness coffee table

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-lightfall-the-witness-black-fleet-traveler-gif-27585995

Thoughts and speculations on the traveler beam trace rifle?

Maybe they’ll update it to a prism trac rriflr?

[gentle geyser]

Rriflr

[fiery copper]

Youre going to trip over your glass table and re enact the lightfall calus zoom call with all the shattered glass

[dim minnow]

Prismatic isn't a damage type

actually, it is

Conditonal Finality is an example

[gentle geyser]

Kinetic 2.0

[raw hazel]

Gameplay-wise I'm hoping it's a primary or a heavy- As is trace rifles are in a weird spot in the game. Otherwise it looks REALLY COOL and I REALLY WANT IT and I HOPE IT TURNS PEOPLE INTO TREES

[empty fern]

So what I’m hearing is

New trace rifle is ANOTHER HARD LIGHT

[fiery copper]

Dey put da primsm dmg in da trac rrifflr

[empty fern]

[dim minnow]

Conditional Finality is prismatic because it is both Solar and Stasis

[fiery copper]

Borealis sitting in the corner drinking away its sorrows

[gentle geyser]

Kinetic weapons are prismatic because they boost both energy types for trans power

[dim minnow]

is it really prismatic if it only does Light subclass dmage types?

[empty fern]

True

[fiery copper]

Can confirm, my power is boosted by kinetic weapons

I am at least city level-

[raw hazel]

(If it does end up as a primary I don't think I would ever take it off) ((I am very normal about all things Traveler))

[jagged badge]

Technically, since you could absolutely pick all Light aspects/abilities

[empty fern]

It’ll be a new fundamental perk

[gentle geyser]

Drown in the Deep

[fiery copper]

[empty fern]

Do not rise

[dim minnow]

yeah, but Prismatic comes with grenades that mix Light/Dark

[gentle geyser]

Prismatic is basically just the kinetic subclass

Kinetic weapons on top

[fiery copper]

It's like the Celebration mk2 from terraria, it randomly cycles through different projectiles with different properties

[marsh spire]

its the avatar of the elements

[jagged badge]

Me wonders if a kinetic primary with Tessellation will end up being a great loadout for Prismatic

[empty fern]

Perhaps

[gentle geyser]

Tessellation was probably made with pris in mind

[empty fern]

Wonder if it’ll be based on the super or the aspects

[raw hazel]

It'll probably be based on Super

A few of the things in Prismatic are, namely the Fragments

[gentle geyser]

Super seems to take point

[jagged badge]

That’s how one of the fragments works at least

[gentle geyser]

Love how prismatic hunter does a knife trick when only like 2 or 3 of the subclasses have knives in the melee

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-destiny-2-final-shape-the-final-shape-d2-tfs-gif-5910196830123967912

[fiery copper]

I like this idea though, rapid fire weapon that does a random damage type and effect. 5 slow, a single unravel projectile, 10 scorch, stuff like that.

[empty fern]

Wonder what’s more hype
Prismatic
Exotic class item returned
Or auto rifle they heals

[gentle geyser]

Auto rifle

[fiery copper]

Exotic class items, if I can combine Contraverse and Dire Skull

If not, bad dlc dead game bungie fell off

[raw hazel]

I'd be surprised if they did tbh, at least from our small sample it looks like they're taking perks from more neutral exotics

[fiery copper]

Fr*ck

[raw hazel]

You the perks/effects for stuff like Star-Eaters, Verity's Brow, HOIL, etc

[fiery copper]

OH I FORGOT VERITY EXISTED

[raw hazel]

IIRC there was a Hunter or Titan who had Death Throes active

[fiery copper]

I know it's not neutral but god please let ashen wake be one of the exotics you can get a class item for-

I want to throw wizard fireballs

[raw hazel]

Maybe if they add more things to Prismatic over time

[fiery copper]

Honestly

That is the only possible way to power creep prismatic

With prismatic

[gentle geyser]

Prismatic hunter is gonna get power creeped by stasis hunter (real)

[fiery copper]

Call this shit The Collapse the way its gonna absolutely demolish the established game

You literally cannot do anything else that will be more powerful than prismatic.

[ember storm]

eh

[trim grotto]

To be fair, Prismatic can't do everything the full subclasses can do. Pieces of each, yes, but not the full board.

[gentle geyser]

Hunter prismatic might actually be mid too

Purely because of the aspects

[trim grotto]

I refuse to poo poo the thing I don't yet have

[gentle geyser]

Im gonna use it regardless Im just not happy with the aspects available for it

[shadow crypt]

Prismatic Hunter looks like the best??

[gentle geyser]

Its not

If anything its 100% the worst

[shadow crypt]

💀

Yeah ok

[gentle geyser]

3 of the aspects are dodge related

One of which completely uses it up to function and another is just not good

[trim grotto]

There'll be more
Just look at Banner of War

That wasn't out on release and became the biggest meta currently

[gentle geyser]

I really hope we get more

Because 3 of the 5 aspects being dodge is just

The arc aspect will be good for arc related things obviously but even then you can use it on just arc normally

[safe galleon]

still insanely funny to me that the berserker class only got a build that fit the fantasy of a berserker months after its debut

[gentle geyser]

Watch them put banner of war on prismatic

[shadow crypt]

It’s gonna get nerfed anyways soon

has to

[gentle geyser]

Wonder when we’ll get news on frostarmor

[shadow crypt]

What’s that

[dim minnow]

Bungie said something about a new Stasis keyword buff

something kind of like Woven Mail but Stasis

you know, Frigid Mail is probably a better name for it

[shadow crypt]

Oh wow

Those must be the stasis buffs then

That they were talking about

[chrome fog]

I’m gonna return to scrolling through all this but man it’s interesting to be powerscaling when Paracausality as a force is meant to circumvent the natural powerscaling of a regular ass universe

[chrome fog]

Y’know how people call themselves “gods” but they ain’t really they’re just really good at something? Gods in Destiny are a mixture of that and the conventional embodiment of the aspect they pertain to; the Hive God siblings are both embodiments of the aspects of War (Xivu Arath), Deceit/Cunning (Savathun), and Navigation/Discovery (Auryx/Oryx) and were told to aspire to these aspects because their realization (as in, in doing the thing and making it happen) of the metaphysical concepts they are related to will be processed by their worms into Ascendent Energy and thus will allow them to be empowered

Ok I’m finished

Imma be real my head was spinning with how rapid mightyking was shooting off questions

[gentle geyser]

TLDR
Beings will get called gods by their subjects or refer to themselves as gods

[shadow crypt]

Did the Hive Gods have partners

[chrome fog]

Not really

Or well

What do you mean by partners?

[shadow crypt]

Love interests

[chrome fog]

They have each produced a brood as well as children significant enough to be regarded by them; but otherwise no real romantic partners

At least, not from what I’ve glimpsed

[dim minnow]

Xivu has the most known children
do with this info what what you will

[chrome fog]

THE BEDROOM IS A BATTLEFRONT, AND I AM WAR. MAY WE BE GLORIOUS.

[dim minnow]

reminds me how cool Shattered Realm was

[shadow crypt]

How did Elsie Bray end up in a time loop?

[trim grotto]

Good question!

[gentle geyser]

If only she had time to explain

[chrome fog]

A shame really

[raw hazel]

Certainly a strange situation to be in

[fiery copper]

I'll have time to explain tomorrow

[analog torrent]

When did the dreaming city become a thing? Read the 4 forsaken awoken lorebooks and there wasn’t a clear chapter in the Awoken of the Reef where the awoken moved there

[next bobcat]

Maellllll

My questions were not answered (granted you did inquire and I only responded like 10 hours after)

[trim grotto]

It's not impossible but probably not - plus, Outbreak is on a closed loop.
Guardian supremacists exiled for starting a coup
Basically nothing except the visual storytelling

[next bobcat]

Interesting

So savathun’s 2 truths 1 lie about the moving planets did lead to that, but otherwise nowhere else?

[trim grotto]

Since I backscrolled for the sake of Zoup, I will mention that Eris is right. The lore is explicit.

sjur eido! the woman i named a tempest!
i told her stories of my friendship with sjur eido and her great bow. mara told me of the lost distributary, and of eido's quest to assassinate her in revenge for the diasyrm, i challenged the obvious lies in this story—the sjur eido I knew, dragon slayer whose arrows pierced illusion, would never have hesitated to kill, no matter how beautiful her target! and how could sjur, who shrugged off talk of gods as nothing of her concern, have also been a fanatical servant of this diasyrm, who cared only for lost divinity? inconsistent! and therefore a lie!
mara was delighted by my disbelief, she told me that she would tell me the truth about sjur if i would only take off my helmet, so she could look into the eyes that had gazed so often on her beloved.
did you know that pothos is another name for asphodelia, the white flower of the awoken? white flower of longing.```

[trim grotto]

We currently have nothing else to point towards, bar a hypothetical regarding the conceptual alternate use of Taking, which may be how the Planets were... taken.

[next bobcat]

Thanks for that btw

[next bobcat]

That makes sense

I wonder if we’ll ever see a lore implication for the DCV

Also, there’s the city on top of the leviathan and then the rest of it which looks hollow - what’s that about? Have we been in there?

[trim grotto]

The Eater of Worlds raid
Which is also what the big hollow bit is

It consumes space rocks for fuel

[sick yew]

You mean content removal? They give the occasional bit so that certain things make sense
For example the Forges were destroyed after being unmaintained for too long or salvaged by Eliksni

[blazing wasp]

Planets were joinked

[sick yew]

Yup

Pyramids just took a bite

[blazing wasp]

Hongry

[sick yew]

Or thirsty in Titans case

[willow dagger]

@blazing wasp so… I just saw a trailer for the final shape but I don’t always catch everything. If I’m right, Cayde is in the traveler who is… “the afterlife” somehow? And the octopus guy is infecting the traveler?

[blazing wasp]

It's not really a afterlife, we're a bit unsure but we believe someone's presence, likely crows, is causing him to appear

The pale heart seems to be formed based on the people in it, it's weird

[willow dagger]

Kind of like the octopus guy? Isn’t he like a bunch of people too?

[jagged badge]

It is the combination of most the people of its species I believe

I think some weren’t involved, but they didn’t survive

[next bobcat]

Imteresting

[next bobcat]

From now on I shall only call the witness octopus guy. This is perfection.

[shadow crypt]

After Oryx died who commanded the Taken?

[trim grotto]

Savathûn, for a while. But they didn't have a singular primary leader like with Oryx, for only he knew how to Take. In lieu of Oryx, they followed whoever had a strong will.

[viscid cipher]

I want to ask something

[jagged badge]

Shoot

[viscid cipher]

What do we really know about the drifter?

[jagged badge]

A fair amount

[viscid cipher]

I haven’t ever read lore books and whatnot but I’ve always been interested

[jagged badge]

He was risen in the Dark Age, was immediately distrustful of the Light and set off in the opposite direction of the Traveler when his Ghost tried to lead him there

He’s never liked relying on the Light at all, even refusing to allow his Ghost to fix his hunger, resulting in him dying of starvation many times and needing to be resurrected

[viscid cipher]

Wow

[jagged badge]

At one point he settled down in a town, and used his Light secretly to do “minor miracles” to help the people of the town. A group of Iron Lords came around and made a deal with the village to hide out in it and ambush some nearby Warlords. The ensuing battle destroyed the town and costed the lives of everyone on it I believe

Drifter took this knowledge to Felwinter directly, and after proving that the Iron Lord in question was an Oathbreaker (as involving civilians was against the Iron Decree), Felwinter challenged and killed said Iron Lord

There’s way more than that over the years of his life, I’m just tryna remember what I can as chronologically as I can

[viscid cipher]

Oh

Ty

I’ll probably look into in more after my 3 classes

[ember storm]

this is all you need to know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9kuSsmCZVU&ab_channel=DestinyLoreVault

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

(In seriousness, this lorebook gives us a lot of insight into his past:
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-a-man-with-no-name)

[rotund wyvern]

How old is osrisi and saint 14 they seem to be really old cuz they went to fight that war with the fallen

The six fronts

[jagged badge]

Osiris at least has been around since the Dark Age

So that’s a few centuries at least

Not sure about Saint tbh

[rotund wyvern]

How many years is that before current time

[jagged badge]

We don’t know specifically

Even “generally” is quite vague I believe

[rotund wyvern]

Why are ahamakara called wish dragons

[jagged badge]

Because they grant wishes

[rotund wyvern]

Lore wise how do the ahamakra stack up against the hive gods

What is a iron lord

[jagged badge]

A group of Lightbearers who formed in the Dark Age to protect people and challenge Warlords who used their power to oppress people and control territory

[rotund wyvern]

Ok

[chrome fog]

They are living monkey’s paws, though they can be physically killed

We do so in the Last Wish raid, other Guardians did so during the Great Ahamkara Hunt

[rotund wyvern]

Ok

[rotund wyvern]

Wdym living monkey paws

[chrome fog]

Their spirit (and seemingly true self) still persists but once they’re physically dead they kind of peace out

[chrome fog]

Do you know what the metaphor of a monkey’s paw is?

[rotund wyvern]

No

[chrome fog]

Essentially, every time it curls a finger, a wish is granted but with an extreme caveat

The Ahamkara do the same in that they grant wishes, but often not exactly as the wisher wants

For example, “I wish for you to make me a sandwich” will not summon a sandwich but get you turned into a sandwich

[jagged badge]

I mean, I dunno that they’d do that

They still want to feed off more wishes

[chrome fog]

A sentient sandwich

Then you ask “I wish to be the way I was before” and then they make you into a baby/toddler of yourself

The point being, they will grant your wish on a technicality

[ember storm]

I wish for ahamkara to have big silly colorful afros

and big squeaky clown shoes

[empty fern]

Granted
Wish dragons are now clowns and refuse to do wishes without material pay

(It costs silver now)

[chrome fog]

ouugh my wallet

https://tenor.com/view/rutogalore-tom-and-jerry-chest-gif-21333856

[empty fern]

Mothkeepers lore, who interacted with the moths and the ogre again?

[jagged badge]

My clanmate’s Guardian

[empty fern]

I see

[jagged badge]

Wait fuck

Not clanmate haha

She’s in the Cryptarchy server though and she came up with the Mothkeepers

So it’s her Guardian in the lore tab

[empty fern]

Wha

[chrome fog]

Lady Lucida

[empty fern]

Since when did players make exotics

[chrome fog]

If I remember

[jagged badge]

Since they worked for Bungie

[ember storm]

I don’t know how to tell you this

but

employees making a video game

possibly play said game

[jagged badge]

Just look at Noah

[empty fern]

Holy shit

[jagged badge]

[empty fern]

Bungie employees are real?

[ember storm]

yes

and you’re fake

back to the aether with you

[empty fern]

[light ocean]

Guys late to the party but do we know what part Cayde plays in TFS

[jagged badge]

Not really

[light ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-steam-steam-sad-gif-9524752141311518885

[jagged badge]

It’s theorised that he’s intended as a guide for us within the Pale Heart

[light ocean]

Welp that sucks but at least he’s back

[jagged badge]

We’ve only had a few trailers, and regardless, they’re probably keeping the exact nature of his return and purpose secret for when it actually comes out

[light ocean]

True that leaves some hope yet

[ember storm]

destination vendor

ultimate goal

[devout vine]

Alright! I'm here...
Don't attack me if you've already talked about it, I ain't scrolling up cuz I wanna ask this question...

How do you guys think The Final shape is gonna go, regarding Savathun?

Is this truly an Endgame moment? Enemies banding together against a common adversary? Or does savathun once again have a scheme?

[jagged badge]

Savathûn has no reason to impede us on this

[raw hazel]

We all want the Witness gone

[devout vine]

She doesn't...
And because she knows the truth about what happened on fundament, she wants him dead as much as we do

But you think she'll be an ally to the city?
Or perhaps remain in the grey area?

[chrome fog]

She doesn’t particularly have anything that wants her to ally with us

[iron mortar]

did they ever explain how guardians choose their class

i don't think they have ever explain how guardians choose if they wanna be a hunter, titan, or warlock

can guardians switch classes, or is the class built based on personality in past life

[chrome fog]

It’s just styles in which they fight, and often there is overlap

This is a good explanation as to the way the classes are categorized, but like I said there’s intersection with a couple notable examples
#📚lore-discussion message

Shaw Han is a good one, he used Golden Gun like a Well of Radiance to empower a couple redjacks when fighting a horde of… Hive? I believe?

Cabal, I was wrong
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-swarm

[analog torrent]

Part of it is combat style and part of it is current personality/beliefs/motivations, but the mental stuff feeds into the combat style.
Ex: "In time his kind would be called Titan." -lore tab about Rezyl Azzir, a Dark Age Risen

[exotic cloak]

No, and probably

Anyway, if there is a posibilty to know anything, it will be with Heresy in one year or something, that episode will be clearly Hive related

It is going to be probably hidden swarm or Xivu but who knows, can be Savathun or at least she can appear

[next bobcat]

Just looked at the Entelechy lore (specifically about the noesis) and Eido’s interpretation of what happened to the race, specifically the “disassembled and reassembled” reminded me a lot of that dissected war beast we see in the final shape trailer.

[gentle geyser]

Here is something thats confusing

Why are we fighting the lucent brood in the gameplay trailer

Maybe placeholders? But even then thats a weird placeholder to do

Especially since its not the main design of the hive

[dim minnow]

that's just Hive being Hive

even during Witch they were opposing us

[gentle geyser]

Yeah, but they should be fighting the witness no?

And xiva’s hive are in the pale heart too no?

[dim minnow]

doesn't mean they won't fight us either

[dim minnow]

I don't think Xivu is directly leading them at this point

[gentle geyser]

I also wonder if vex or scorn are in the pale heart, if so then all factions would be in there

[shadow crypt]

How did Elsie Bray end up in a time loop seeing all the futures and stuff?

[gentle geyser]

Good question

[jagged badge]

I believe the last time the characters spoke about, they seemed to indicate they believed it was the Traveler

Whether that’s true or not, we have no clue

[ember storm]

spoiler alert it was me

I showed her my copy of Groundhog Day

[remote sky]

So basically, the light is what's there, the darkness is what's not? Kinda like how light and dark actually work? Darkness is the absence of light?

[trim grotto]

Not quite, no. Darkness is itself a force unto itself much as Light is, though much of it tends to relate to the mental, or to other planes.

A lack of Light does not Darkness make

[raw hazel]

Light and Dark are quite readily everywhere you look

Light existing seeming as sparks in all living things, every being having their own inner darkness- And all conscious beings connected through the Weave of Consciousness (where Strand comes from)

[dim minnow]

we are all of body and of mind

therefore we are all of Light and of Dark respectively

this is why the distinctions between them don't matter

as the Nine put it

[raw hazel]

It's like what they said during the Veil Containment snippets (now that I am going back to relisten to them). The possibility that Light and Darkness were once a single, unified force- At least perhaps, in their originality.

[willow dagger]

@trim grotto so the traveler is a place but also a being? Cayde exists there… without a ghost? Confus

[jagged badge]

The Pale Heart is a place within the Traveler

[trim grotto]

The place is fashioned largely from its (and our) memories. It's... like a concept that became physical. It didn't always just exist as it will when we get there.

And Cayde appears to have been recreated from these same memories, I'd wager, via the Traveler's power and Light. And it's specifically Cayde over someone else because Riven was fucking with Crow and made him accidentally Wish to see Cayde again so that he could apologise.

[iron mortar]

In the Dark Future, is the reality we read about the reality where Ghost Never found us

Like the dark future lore tab is a bit outdated

As in the lore tab, Savathun is just oryx 2,

[jagged badge]

Nah, we existed in that one

Only, we were just another unremarkable Guardian who fell to the Witness’ temptation

[iron mortar]

That doesn't sit right with me, because I thought we are unique and is why Elise chose us

[jagged badge]

I think we’re unique because of the path Elsie set us on

Our experiences shaped us into the Guardian we are now, and that started with Elsie giving us that push

[blazing wasp]

Iirc she took a gamble lmao

A very very good gamble

[iron mortar]

I find it more interesting if a reality where we don't exist in any bad reality and our existence is what results in the good things happening

[blazing wasp]

She does talk about how we were in the dark future

[jagged badge]

Personally I don’t really care much for that “chosen one” sorta idea

[blazing wasp]

Not much, just that we fell to temptation

[iron mortar]

Source? Please

[trim grotto]

i am not in a type-y mood so have voice

i'll grab that source for you in a jiffy

it's an interaction and awkward to find

[iron mortar]

Oh yeah, did we ever figure out what the fuck was the black heart, like D1 vanilla story is something I don't think should be overanalyzed because it was by cutting up D1 Originally planned campaign

But sometimes it feels as though bungie is just making some shit up, which is kind of true sometimes in the lore

[jagged badge]

Found the source!

https://youtu.be/-XqHi9pHc-k?si=rtjTG6wvKSj8uRCx

[ember storm]

we knew it was a vex artifact used to empower the vault of glass

[jagged badge]

Beyond ours lies another world. One pervaded by Darkness. Where Guardians abandoned their Light at the call of temptation. In that world… you were no exception.

[trim grotto]

nice work

[iron mortar]

Ooooh , I remember this, but it has been 4 years

I forgot this line

[ember storm]

I hate that

time shouldn’t be real

[trim grotto]

reading Gardener and Winnower is kicking my ass
i keep messing up the lines

[jagged badge]

[iron mortar]

And what is the vault of glass?

[ember storm]

like

[iron mortar]

Lore wise

[ember storm]

in general?

[iron mortar]

Bro I have vex mytho

[ember storm]

a vex laboratory where they tried engineering ways to exert their will over existence itself

[iron mortar]

Like lore wise what is it

[ember storm]

yknow the Gorgons and the oracles that can just erase you from the timeline

[iron mortar]

Isn't that all vex technology

[ember storm]

no

literally, they were engineering a way to just point and erase anything they wanted from history

everything would just point to you not existing and you’d be forgotten by everyone

you just wouldn’t be

[trim grotto]

Essentially, they were attempting to control and admin time itself.

[iron mortar]

But the vex have always been able to travel through time, what stops them from just going back in time and killing all humanity if needed

[ember storm]

they haven’t

and it’s not time travel

the goal of the vault of glass was the ability to literally just lift a finger and having total control over all of time

[jagged badge]

Didn’t they retroactively insert themselves into Neptune’s history?

To be honest I am confused by the Vex

[iron mortar]

What about devices like the sundial I thought those allowed for time travel as well

Like it is how we brought Saint 14 back

[ember storm]

that was Osiris’ invention and literally just a Time Machine

not used for anything else

literally the standard sci fi Time Machine

[iron mortar]

Why didn't we use it to stop the collapse??

[ember storm]

again, there is a very big distinction between traveling through time and having total complete control over the concept of time

[ember storm]

it didn’t work like that

also why would anybody allow that

[jagged badge]

Not to mention, we couldn’t have physically stopped the Black Fleet even if we could get there

[ember storm]

you would be compromising the entirety of existence at that point

it would be a worthless venture

the sundial was incredibly risky just being focused on one individual in one place

and it only really worked because everything that happened to Saint was on Mercury

[iron mortar]

But it would have an amazing story, the most annoying thing about destiny lore is that some coolest stuff in the lore has never been animated or shown clearly, imagine if we just had a chance to see the collapse or Twilight Gap or the creation of exos and awoken

[ember storm]

we

have very clear information on all those

there’s no point in witnessing it

[jagged badge]

[iron mortar]

Well what is the point of reading it if this a video game and they can show it in animation

[ember storm]

because there’s a difference between lore books we read as a third person audience and coming up with some convoluted reason to animate and voice all of it

there’s no point

this is the reason the lore books exist

I wouldn’t be opposed to some eventual destiny series since Sony has a big enough influence and budget, but as it stands, there’s no reason for bungie to waste time and resources putting any of it in the actual game

[iron mortar]

Oh, so you are saying it would be harder to insert yourself into a narrative that is written from how you are from an outsider perspective viewing in and making a fully voice acted and animation is kinda pointless as Bungie is spread thin already

[ember storm]

it literally is harder to try conjuring up a reason for our character to witness all these historic events

[trim grotto]

that was awful
They had no antecedent and no constituents, and there is no instrument of causality by which they could be portioned into components and assigned to some schematic of their origin. If you followed the umbilical of history in search of some ultimate atavistic embryo that became them, you would end your journey marooned here in this garden.
this part in particular kept tripping me up

[ember storm]

rather than just letting the audience read them

[trim grotto]

here you go @severe meadow

[iron mortar]

So with the new lore is the winnower still the darkness, or is it now the witnesses people

Shadowkeep is 5 years old so how much did they retcon

[trim grotto]

actual retcons are rare

[ember storm]

there was no retcon

the entire time through Shadowkeep to now the witness was the only thing suggesting it was the darkness

Presage clearly established a distinction

Calus himself admitted he was lied to in their first meeting

[iron mortar]

Well like darkness being pyramids is a huge retcon from D1 when it was this vague blackness

[ember storm]

that’s not a retcon

[trim grotto]

That's not really what a retcon is

[ember storm]

and the pyramids are still represented by the “vague blackness”

it’s just the same thing we have more context on

https://preview.redd.it/s9nwrvn6wfd71.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c3dfb528ff41fb2fed3df19fa4256123c849d6f0

[trim grotto]

Unveiling, as it always should have been, is being heavily scrutinised once more. It was always described in the book itself as a metaphor, and that is perhaps the true case after all.
Unveiling is the only place that ever mentions the Winnower as a character, and it appears to have been sent by the Witness, but the Witness isn't the Winnower in a literal sense. After all, it has its own documented origin that we can actually believe.

So - does the Winnower exist as a being? Perhaps! Or perhaps we took the self-proclaimed metaphor too literally, and the Winnower is a concept - one that has been claimed by the Witness. Or perhaps, something else entirely.

[iron mortar]

That is very vague and confusing

[trim grotto]

Correct

[ember storm]

it was always vague

[jagged badge]

Welcome to Destiny lore

[ember storm]

we have more context which raises more questions

It’s never going to be concrete

that’s the point of an evolving story

[jagged badge]

That’s conked creet babey

[ember storm]

kronk creak

[trim grotto]

It's best, imo, to currently ignore Unveiling unless you enjoy long winded philosophical debates.

It isn't a totally invalid piece of lore but we can shelve it for now

[ember storm]

my philosophy is that soft tacos are bad

[iron mortar]

But it is like the only lore tab that says anything about the vex's origin

And even that is vague as well

[trim grotto]

Not quite true

We have Clovis Bray explaining how they likely evolved in his Logbook, albeit without a listed origin place.

[ember storm]

the Clovis bray journals provided more information than unveiling ever did

again, unveiling is upfront about being a metaphor

[iron mortar]

Fuck Clovis Bray, all my homies hate clovis

[ember storm]

hate him all you want, his data was real

[trim grotto]

Indeed, but he is undeniably knowledgeable and his information is valid.

[ember storm]

take the metaphor and large assumptions out of unveiling, and the result is the same

the vex are simply life that evolved to their current state

and their main state of being is that of assimilation

[iron mortar]

The most disappointing thing about beyond light is that he wasn't the raid boss and we didn't get to kill him

Especially after reading the lore about his son

I was so ready to kill him

But no taniks 3

[jagged badge]

Unfortunately we had to keep Clovis around

[trim grotto]

haha well
to be fair, there is some value in having the smartest man of the golden age alive

but he is a despicable disgrace of a human being

[jagged badge]

Without him, we could have never saved Rasputin after all

[ember storm]

he also wouldn’t exist without him to begin with

[iron mortar]

Well that didn't really matter anyway since Rasputin is gone now

[jagged badge]

It absolutely did matter

[trim grotto]

It mattered enough - elsewise Eramis would have fired the Warsats

[ember storm]

at the end of the day, Clovis did do a good amount of service to humanity, but for all the wrong reasons and for zero care how he got there

[jagged badge]

Rasputin told us about Neomuna and the Veil too

[ember storm]

but that doesn’t mean we should condemn all Exos or anything

banshee is also very old so nobody should ever bother him

[iron mortar]

Banshee is his own person and all the memories of being Clovis are gone

But he keeps his intellect

[ember storm]

he knows he’s Clovis

[jagged badge]

Without us going there, the Neomuni would be wiped out and we wouldn’t have Strand. We also wouldn’t have found Ahsa, and thus not be able to find a way into the portal to prevent the Witness

[iron mortar]

Crow knows he is uldren

[ember storm]

Crow literally has all the memories of Uldren, too

[iron mortar]

Doesn't mean he is

[trim grotto]

waltz is not arguing this

[ember storm]

you really don’t have to explain this to me

[jagged badge]

Bringing back Rasputin was a crucial cog/domino

[ember storm]

but banshee very much knows he’s Clovis

and he’s done trying to forget it

[iron mortar]

It sucks the neomuni people are all digital and in cryo sleep, it would be fun to see them in person or something

[ember storm]

I would’ve liked to see the VRchat models they all chose for themselves

[iron mortar]

And is there lore explaining how neomuna was created

[jagged badge]

I wanna see my beloved Quinn Laghari

[jagged badge]

Yes

[iron mortar]

Do you have link

Or is there a tldr

[jagged badge]

It’s explained across multiple sources

The Exodus Indigo followed a signal to Neptune, I believe from the Augurmind Soteria. They landed there and established a colony

[trim grotto]

*during the Collapse

[iron mortar]

And it got there because savathun killed nezarac

[ember storm]

the cloudark is also built on a sleeping vex mind

very eepy

do not disturb

[jagged badge]

Wasn’t that Soteria, not a Vex Mind?

[iron mortar]

Why did the soteria lead it there and also how did an exodus ship make it to the edge of the solar system without the darkness destroying it

[ember storm]

well it was actively under attack

[jagged badge]

The Exodus ships’ whole purpose was extrasolar colonisation so them making it further out in the Solar system isn’t that strange tbf

[ember storm]

it wasn’t a calm ride

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/winterbite

[iron mortar]

It is not the science it is how it escaped the witness

[ember storm]

the witness wasn’t leading the charge on humanity

Nezarec was

and he was actively being murdered by Savathun

[iron mortar]

Bro it is so funny how she is technically the goat because she took out rhulk and nezarac with her cunning

Which is wild

[ember storm]

Rhulk is just a shitty parker

he was staved off by a giant night light

also uh, if you’ve done RoN

Nezzy isn’t exactly a top brass fighter

[iron mortar]

Dam 🦫

[jagged badge]

Wait, were they attacked by a Tormentor?

[ember storm]

maybe maybe not

if tormentors are assumed to be genetic clones thanks to Calus’ technology, it wouldn’t make sense

[iron mortar]

Also wait is the creator of the isthar collective in this server

[ember storm]

but that in of itself is an assumption

[ember storm]

it’s a website

[iron mortar]

Yeah the website

[ember storm]

meaning I have no idea

[iron mortar]

Or did Bungie make it

[ember storm]

I assume it’s a community thing and not just one

but it’s not an official site

[jagged badge]

He is not

[ember storm]

it takes the name of the in-universe Ishtar collective (which is directly tied to Neomuna, actually)

they’re very much not the same though

[jagged badge]

Ishtar Collective has its own Discord server though. Why do you ask anyway?

[ember storm]

I wouldn’t actually assume the site owner to be a lore expert

[iron mortar]

I thought it would be cool

[trim grotto]

He isn't, really. Very nice guy, though.

good old baxter

[ember storm]

yeah it’s an amazing resource

but cataloguing doesn’t mean you’ll read all of it

any questions can just be looked into yourself, or asked here

sorta the point of the channel

[jagged badge]

Apparently he’s in DTG, but I’ve never seen him speak there so

[iron mortar]

WAIT, sunderdash was on the exodus ship

[ember storm]

in

[iron mortar]

i thought she died in the vex network on venus

[ember storm]

her vex copies were all over

the actual person, her fate was unknown

until we knowed it

[trim grotto]

227 copies of Maya Sundaresh were simulated and sent out into the network after being freed.

Maya herself... was fine.

[iron mortar]

I thought one of her copies tried to kill clovis

[trim grotto]

Also true

Not a physical being though - it was quite literally in his head

[ember storm]

it would’ve been funny

[iron mortar]

was the physical maya in the ship, or the digital copy

[trim grotto]

Physical.

The real Maya.

The simulated Maya copy that attempted to kill Clovis was never there - it was a Vex memetic in his mind. That's why her name was on no roster, why she was only present through his eyes and his tech.

There was no body

[ember storm]

Johnny silverhand

[iron mortar]

and why did she try to kill him again

well outside of the fact he is clovis

[ember storm]

he’s Clovis Bray

that’s the reason

[iron mortar]

what is funny irl, I am a mechanical engineering major, and i work with humanoid robotics

[jagged badge]

[iron mortar]

destiny inspired my passion, and I want to make exos real

I am not kidding

[jagged badge]

I don’t think that’s a good idea

[trim grotto]

That Maya was essentially a Vex. And Clovis was harvesting them.

[jagged badge]

[iron mortar]

nah just talk it is a good idea

[jagged badge]

This is just like when I was in middle school and convinced I could make Jurassic Park but without the problems

[iron mortar]

like just get good employees

[ember storm]

he had good employees

his security detail shot at a child with zero hesitation

(One of them was Cayde)

[iron mortar]

was talking about jurassic park

[jagged badge]

Clovis Bray made Jurassic Park??

[ember storm]

he would

[iron mortar]

he kinda did

[ember storm]

he’d make vex park

[jagged badge]

I was trying to remember when this happened in the film lmao

[ember storm]

Volantis Park

perfect

[iron mortar]

also I am suprised nobody thinks europa is so creepy because how there was entire city of humans that got extinct by the vex

like that is most creepy area in destiny to me

because it feels so real

like after a nuke drops in a city

[ember storm]

there’s corpses littered everywhere

and also that one lost sector comprised entirety of once-humans assimilated into vex

[trim grotto]

and also a little bit by Clovis

[iron mortar]

also did they ever detailed the process of how exos are made, like how exos got to earth

[ember storm]

Exos were a thing for a while

it’s not some secret project he had right before the collapse

[trim grotto]

Exo were a small part of the population but a public and well known one nonetheless

[iron mortar]

I thought the exos were a secret project and it was why he put it on europa instead of earth

[ember storm]

the process of how he engineered them was the secret

[iron mortar]

so did people just ask to be put into exo bodies and pay clovis for whatever reason to become one

[ember storm]

a secret he guarded so securely that if anyone attempted to infiltrate the DSC, planned procedure was to arm the orbiting space station with nuclear warheads and ram it into Europa to destroy the entire moon

[jagged badge]

There were probably varying reasons why people would become Exo

[ember storm]

but exos existing was just regular business

I think the assumption is Cayde volunteered for debt

[iron mortar]

clovis is such a psychopath

[jagged badge]

People with the same ego of wanting immortality as Clovis maybe. People in debt with no other choice, or people who viewed it as a way to save themselves from, say, illnesses or what have you

[ember storm]

I’d do it

[iron mortar]

same

[iron mortar]

bro my first volunteer

contact me in 20 years or so

i got you

wait I may need more time maybe 30 years to 35 years

[iron mortar]

are exos still being made, or are they finite population like the omnics in overwatch

[ember storm]

the only creation was possible on Europa

which uh

[jagged badge]

Only one Exo has been made since the Collapse

That being Atraks-1

[iron mortar]

taniks?

[trim grotto]

is not an Exo

[iron mortar]

???

[ember storm]

Taniks was always mainly cybernetic parts

he is literally Adam Smasher

[iron mortar]

oh he was a cyborg

[ember storm]

Atraks is the one who actually went from organic to full exo

[trim grotto]

Taniks is and always has been largely machine, and he may have been rebuilt with some DSC parts, but it was Atraks who became Exo. Taniks is no Exo.

[jagged badge]

Why the fuck did I read that as Adam Sandler

[ember storm]

there’s probably a meme of that somewhere

[iron mortar]

isn't the lore for mask of bakris, atraks ripped of her skin to become a exo or what was that metaphorical

my fav lore is rasputin, exo, and clovis bray lore

[ember storm]

it was to stave off DER, which is a fatal condition an exo can suffer from

[iron mortar]

which is why they are wiped

[ember storm]

it’s their mind being unable to come to grips with their new body and induces a total breakdown

[jagged badge]

She was an Exo who ripped the face off her corpse to prove that it wasn’t really her, just a mask anyone could wear

[ember storm]

then Bakris made her skinned skull into a helmet

because

it’s cool

also

[iron mortar]

wait where is bakris now, did we fight her

[jagged badge]

Yeah

[trim grotto]

in the campaign, yes

[jagged badge]

In a lost sector

[trim grotto]

in the Cosmodrome of all places

[jagged badge]

[ember storm]

well there’s bits of her here

and there

yknow dregs are probably put on janitorial duty

[iron mortar]

and overall all exotic armor and weapons we use, are copies or the exact duplicate outside of the outliers like thorn and stuff

[ember storm]

imagine getting docked by your captain and then having to mop up his brain

[ember storm]

thorn is a duplicate

all thorns are duplicate

[iron mortar]

like is last word we use the one shin has

[trim grotto]

Eris!
Grab the document!

[ember storm]

the real thorn something else entirely now

[jagged badge]

That’s not really true at all

[trim grotto]

the document, Eris

you wrote it just for this moment

[ember storm]

For some armor they’re not really “copies”, more like facsimiles

like Saint or felwinter helms

Obviously not the genuine articles

but they serve the same purpose

[iron mortar]

and the power exotic armor give guardians are they real

like in lore

or just gameplay

[ember storm]

I mean most of the abilities are explained as the armor itself

[jagged badge]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11ziR1O3gVNx-8LNi5hmp1CF1RQpG2wR1w950cnikpOQ/edit

This one?

[ember storm]

like Sunbracers is an engineered device

[trim grotto]

ye

[jagged badge]

I barely wrote it tbf haha

[iron mortar]

ok but does saint 14 helm actually give saint 14 those abilites

[jagged badge]

It was someone else’s idea, I facilitated and started it off after inviting them to the Cryptarchy to work on it and then they did most the work

[trim grotto]

Probably not. It's case by case.

[jagged badge]

With some Cryptarchs chiming in I believe

[ember storm]

well it’s probably less of the helmet and more him just being goated

[iron mortar]

also what about exotic armor hive or fallen flesh we wear, that gives us their powers is that real or just gameplay

[ember storm]

I mean Bakris’ helm is still a real helmet

[blazing wasp]

Oh yeah I'm saving this one for the irl buddies

[ember storm]

with fallen tech

the skull is literally just to make it look cool

[blazing wasp]

They use me as their byf

[trim grotto]

Usually just gameplay. Mask of Bakris does what it does because it's what the Fallen do. They teleport and use Arc a lot, so now we do that and get an arc damage buff. (and stasis, since it's House Salvation.)

[jagged badge]

I haven’t fact checked that document at all. Not that I really could tbh

[iron mortar]

and is last word we use the same as one shin malphur had, or a copy, and is shin alive?

[trim grotto]

The same, and yes.

[iron mortar]

where is he

[trim grotto]

He's sort of retired, as of a few years ago.

[iron mortar]

but like he is immortal, so he is retiring for eternity

[jagged badge]

I don’t know that we know that

[trim grotto]

After what he set up with the Shadows of Yor, he's retired from actively hunting the corrupted Guardians who seek to surpass that.

To be more specific

[iron mortar]

also I was saw a lore vid that said the speaker was actually spoke to by the traveler, is this true, and why didn't the traveler run away during the collapse

[trim grotto]

The Speakers did speak for the Traveler, hence the name. Our Speaker sort of didn't, as she was in a state after the Collapse. The Mask allowed him to interpret her messages as cryptic dreams.

[ember storm]

unrelated but you know what’s fucked up

[iron mortar]

oooh

[ember storm]

people born in 2014 are ten years old now

[trim grotto]

And it didn't run because - we're not entirely sure. Savathûn appears to have been involved.

[iron mortar]

STOP!! PLEASE I AM NOT OLD

[ember storm]

suffer as I have

[trim grotto]

Some stuff suggests she chose to stay, some suggests she was forced to stay.

Could be both, honestly

[ember storm]

I view it more as a personal conflict than an outer one

[iron mortar]

also by what Vow of the disciple says, the light and the traveler are separate things

[ember storm]

we don’t know what other forms of life are out there but I doubt humanity was the last available choice

[jagged badge]

Rasputin shot the Traveler

[ember storm]

remember, replace the o with an i

that’s the real legacy

[trim grotto]

Yes, that's true. Not all Light comes from the Traveler. It's a natural part of the universe itself, much as Darkness is.

[visual scaffold]

So if I understand correctly, the traveler fucked off, the witness cut a hole in the side of it, the fallen now have factions allied with humans as do the cabal hence their presence in the tower.

Oh and hive can become guardians but cursed

And the veil is the darkness version of the traveler.

[jagged badge]

The Traveler didn’t “fuck off”, it moved to defend humanity

[jagged badge]

They aren’t cursed, they’re Lightbearers exactly the same as we are

[trim grotto]

But, ruder.

[visual scaffold]

Why did it move? How will it defend humanity?

What made it move I meab

[jagged badge]

Eramis was aiming Rasputin’s Warsats at it. It moved away from the City to try to avoid potential collateral

[trim grotto]

Because of the Warsat network pointed at it, and therefore, the Last City. It moved to face them and stop the City being in the firing line.
After that, it went up against the Black Fleet.

[visual scaffold]

How is the traveler gonna 1v40 the pyramid ships?

[jagged badge]

Well, it didn’t

[iron mortar]

Wait I thought it was trying to escape the witness, like I don't think the traveler is as good as it shows

[jagged badge]

It tried but was ineffective

[trim grotto]

well you saw that in the Lightfall cutscenes

[visual scaffold]

So is it dead?

[iron mortar]

Like why did the traveler give the hive light outside of the fact it is petty we took the darkness

[iron mortar]

Good question

[visual scaffold]

Are we kinda cooked?

[jagged badge]

That not the fact at all

[trim grotto]

Not quite. Just in a real bad state.

[jagged badge]

The Traveler does not have an issue with us using the Darkness for good

[visual scaffold]

I hope it gets healed. Otherwise humanity is done for. The bad guys seem to be winning.

Earth is surrounded by the pyramid ships, the hive are extremely rude versions of us now, the traveler is critically wounded (again) and it looks like we are done for.

[iron mortar]

you sound like byf

(are you byf, and I am stupid)

[jagged badge]

Byf wishes

Byf is Mael from Wish

[iron mortar]

why didn't they give other races like the fallen the light

[trim grotto]

Ghosts never existed before the Collapse.

We don't entirely know the process in which they were created, either

[iron mortar]

but they exist now, and nothing stops ghosts from reviving fallen

[trim grotto]

The Traveler always provided the species that it tended with terraformed worlds, new atmosphere, and many of these species used the Light in their technologies, or had some forms of artifacts, but they didn't wield Light like we do

[trim grotto]

Correct! This is why I believe the Traveler allowed the Hive to be resurrected - because if it didn't have some manner of input, then why haven't Ghosts resurrected anything else, and why Hive if not for their second chance?

[iron mortar]

ghosts are the weirdest part of the lore, because some tabs say ghosts can't be destroyed by anything that isn't paracasual, but fallen and cabel have destroyed ghosts before so

and like how many ghosts were made

I was shocked to hear that ghosts we see in witch queen are the same made from the collapse, meaning there are millions of ghosts if not more

[trim grotto]

we have no idea and never will
because it ties into player count

but yes, it is millions

[iron mortar]

I saw a meme of a raid team with all white gear and it said it was the stuff eris fireteam used when going to the hellmouth

[trim grotto]

Well you'd want a Lucky Raspberry for Eris
And Eriana's Vow for... y'know, Eriana

[twilit dune]

guys quick question do we know who killed Sjur Eido ?

[trim grotto]

It is, somehow, connected to the Nine.

[remote sky]

I remember learning about the three amigos
If orgot their names

[trim grotto]

A strange coin lay at the center of Abra's outstretched palm. Mara took it between thumb and forefinger and held up it to the cosmos with dainty contempt.

Weregild, she thought. Powerful grief filled her chest, as thick and caustic and heavy as unset concrete.

"And her bow?"

"Gone."

"Huginn? Muninn?"

"The Ahamkara are dead, and their bones are silent.```
```The Queen paces as Orin leans on her war hammer. "I need to know who killed her," Mara says.

"To know, or to see them killed?"

Mara's grief and anger blaze across her face. She looks out at the Reef as she struggles to master herself.

Orin imagines Namqi dead and clenches her war hammer a little tighter.

At last, Mara says, "First, to know." She gives Orin the strange coin that the search party found on Sjur's body. "I'm not sure it was a murder."```

[trim grotto]

...Pahanin, Praedyth, and Kabr, the Legionless?

[remote sky]

One of them died in the trailer

I think for the final shape

Got chop chop

[twilit dune]

okay okay well thanks !

[trim grotto]

Aah
Reed-7, Aisha, and Shayura

Reed-7 died

[remote sky]

Womp womp (he's my favorite)

[twilit dune]

but how does the coin means the nines ?

[remote sky]

K gonna go find those

[twilit dune]

and why tf would they want her dead ?

[trim grotto]

"Forgive them," he rasps as she crushes his windpipe in her fist.

"Who?" she snarls, tightening her grip.```

That's Xûr

[iron mortar]

https://youtube.com/shorts/GlJL_t8QAiU?si=JZgcxcpunKGItSwK

is this real

saint 14 is that strong

[twilit dune]

ooooh ok
were did you get that if you dont mind me asking ?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/proportionality

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-ecdysis
Ecdysis, specifically Debt.

[twilit dune]

thanks !

[trim grotto]

It's about Orin, who became the Emissary of the Nine.

[iron mortar]

so like why is the solar system alive, because that is what the nine is, if I am correct, and like what is xur persay

[twilit dune]

yup so i read debt synesthesia and scales ut unfortunately we dont have the "why"

[trim grotto]

If you don't mind a longform answer, I highly recommend reading Dust, specifically the entry The Nine - but the rest of the book is an excellent read and provides context.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dust

[iron mortar]

what is the tldr

[trim grotto]

The Nine are Dark Matter entities. The matter formed loops due to the gravitational pulls of the celestial bodies of the Sol System and these loops began to think, "fuelled" by the existence of life within the system.

As for Xûr, he's the Agent. A colonist from among the Jovians who, apparently, willingly offered himself to the Nine. They reformed him into... this.

Thing is, the Nine don't really understand how life works. So Xûr's cells are failing him and he's been slowly dying for years.

Doesn't help that Orin shattered his spine.

[iron mortar]

Aren't the jovians the moons of Jupiter

[trim grotto]

Essentially.

[iron mortar]

How is xur from a place with no organisms like him

[dim minnow]

Jovians are the planets beyond the Asteroid Belt

[trim grotto]

Xûr's information largely comes from intepreting his incredibly cryptic statements.

"What is he?" I asked. "I've never seen a creature like that before."

"Xûr is… I believe he's called a Jovian. They're from out beyond even the Reef. I'm afraid I don't know much else about them."

"But they're… friendly?"

"Well, they don't attack us, if that's what you mean. I don't know that I'd call Xûr friendly, but he's not hostile."```

[iron mortar]

Also no way xur is gonna die anytime soon

[jagged badge]

He’s actually gonna die in like 20 minutes, right before he’s meant to show up

[ember storm]

he might

[jagged badge]

No exotics this week!