📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

that or sand

I’d be ok with sand

[chrome fog]

Heck we even got the Colossus mini gun

[ember storm]

we have both kinds even

also on the topic

[eager trout]

Sand where you can create constructs of virtually anything you can imagine but Titans just make a giant fist

[ember storm]

why isn’t there an ornament for the taken cabal commander’s gun

[ember storm]

because they are enhancing what they’re already good at?

for the sake of simplicity?

[chrome fog]

I believe this also tied into the Hive Subclass theory, especially with Thorn and Osteo Striga being great examples of what a poison subclass could look like as well as being an existing status effect

[ember storm]

it’s not like being green lantern

in the middle of a firefight a guardian can’t meticulously design a mech suit or something

[chrome fog]

Titans make a sledgehammer trust

[ember storm]

giant flaming hammer works

[eager trout]

It is if it's based around imagination

[ember storm]

why over complicate

[ember storm]

it’s not based around that specifically

[velvet flax]

technically we already use imagination

we shape the Light into supers

[eager trout]

It's not based around anything because it doesn't exist yet

[ember storm]

guardians literally have to pay to learn how to do basic dances they are the opposite of imaginative

young wolf literally has to have the traveler tell them specifically to use new supers

[chrome fog]

Well. Sentinel shield. Knifes. Stasis staff and shurikens. Arc staff. Solar throwing hammer.

[ember storm]

none of those are complicated

[velvet flax]

tbf old Strand concepts did have the Titan super be a flamethrower looking thing

and iirc the Warlock Strand super was going to be some big spider thing

[eager trout]

How even?

[ember storm]

there’s a reason unused concept art isn’t used

[velvet flax]

yeah ik lmao

[eager trout]

They really wanted Strand to be Green Lantern powers

[chrome fog]

Which is why it would be neat if a subclass built around constructs took it a step further and allowed us to create more advanced constructs to use in our arsenal, such as that strand Titan flamethrower

[eager trout]

They can always add more supers to Strand and Stasis

[chrome fog]

All our abilities are Green Lantern powers

[eager trout]

The other subclasses normally have 3

[velvet flax]

Stasis just needs help in general

[eager trout]

And a grenade that can actually defeat enemies

[velvet flax]

I feel like Duskfields should always have a crystal in the middle that detonates after a while after it has dragged enemies in

[eager trout]

Or at least it should deal damage to enemies inside it

They're adding new aspects and supers to the Light subclasses in The Final Shape, so Stasis and Strand getting new ones at some point isn't far-fetched

[ember storm]

the point is that no guardian is ever going entirely in on their subclasses like a green lantern

the thing with lanterns is they’re only equipped with their rings

guardians always have at bare minimum 3 guns on them at all times

focusing everything on their imagination isn’t the point

[chrome fog]

Given enough time and hard enough studying, it’s totally possible - look at Osiris at his peak spamming multiple supers - but Paracausality requires a greater amount of control in a more nuanced way compared to a Green Lantern ring

For the most part, a ring is dependent on reaching a threshold of emotional intensity within a user and then the imagination for creating the constructs

Paracausality, however, very much scales with a user’s knowledge and experience

As well as natural talent

[exotic cloak]

I like how from time to time this channel talks about green lantern

[empty fern]

It’s like taniks sometimes

[empty fern]

Next lore comments gonna be a bs take on a well established fact

[exotic cloak]

My favourite

[eager trout]

"Calus isn't dead"

[empty fern]

Hmmmm

[exotic cloak]

Nah bro they right

The Calus we killed was just a clon

The true Calus is on Exegol

[empty fern]

Who tf is exogol

[exotic cloak]

||In the new Disney Star Wars Trilogy they suddenly invented that Palpatine made a clon of himself, in the Episode IX we see him, on a sith planet called Exegol. My joke is based on the fact that Calus also has clones||

[empty fern]

Beuh

[eager trout]

Technically that also happened in Legends

Plus, at least now they're explaining it in The Bad Batch

[exotic cloak]

||Yeah but at least that was just a random novel not a fucking movie that also needed me to read a book and director's twitter to fucking get it||

[dim minnow]

I'm not even sure if Palpatine invented the Sith Eternal

[eager trout]

Idk, it's pretty obvious he was a clone, with all the bodies in tanks in the lab

What doesn't make sense is that Rey is his granddaughter

[dim minnow]

ok, I got this

so

Sidious created what were known as Strandcasts

Strandcasts are like clones but instead of it being a copy of someone, they are a new being entirely

Snoke was one of these Strandcasts

Rey's father was another

however, Ray's father had no power in the force so Palpatine deemed him a failure

[eager trout]

Is that a theory or the actual explanation?

[dim minnow]

the only reasons why he kept him was because he was in good health and also because he foresaw some use fo rhim later on

[dim minnow]

actual explanation I believe

eventually, Rey's father would escape Exegol with the help of a slave and would later have a daughter who was incredibly strong in the force

Palpatine would then have Rey's father killed by Ochi of Bestoon because he wasn't too happy with him escaping Exegol which he saw as an act of betrayal

[dim minnow]

I think this stuff is specifically from a novel called "Shaow of the Sith"

[shadow crypt]

Do we know anything about Zavala’s past?

[jagged badge]

Yes. A great deal

He was originally an Awoken, potentially Reefborn, who came to Earth to come help out, but perished on the journey. His Ghost resurrected him and he ventured and survived until he found the fledgling Last City. For a time he also trained under Saladin, and during this time, he met who would go on to be his wife Safiyah. Safiyah and Zavala would adopt and raise an orphan boy who’s village was killed in a Fallen raid. Unfortunately later on, that boy Hakeem was also killed in a raid when he tried to fight. This left Zavala grief stricken and he blamed himself and also feared that Safiyah would blame him so their relationship fractured and they separated

[shadow crypt]

Was Safiyah human or awoken?

[jagged badge]

Human

[shadow crypt]

Is it safe to assume that she’s doing well in the last city?

[jagged badge]

She passed away ages ago

She was mortal after all and this relationship occurred very early in the City’s history

[shadow crypt]

dang

[chrome fog]

There's also a very funny loretab which Zavala is described being fairly the same in his previous life

Oh my mistake, it was a dialogue
https://youtu.be/aSbFqf6fxnc?si=7omjM6cL8qBEC_sA

[ember storm]

I like to believe Zavala started the vanguard rule of not looking into your past life specifically because the awoken made fun of his

[shadow crypt]

Do we know anything about any of the vanguard leaders parents?

[chrome fog]

No

1. as mentioned, looking into one's past life is considered taboo by the Vanguard for the fact that chasing who you were in your past life is very possibly impossible, considering the collapse of human society led to a general loss of knowledge to the extent that Golden Age technology and records are highly coveted; and 2) they just never really delve into any guardians' past life save for Ana, Cayde, Orin, and Crow, and even then it was only really Ana and Crow who really dove deep into their past, Cayde only had a journal and a couple of vague notes and snippets to inform him of his past which he valued immensely in secret

[spiral crane]

Wasn’t crow like some super bad dude in his old life

[ember storm]

Uldren Sov, famous for his bad haircut, unhealthy relationship with his sister Mara Sov, and also the killer of Cayde 6

also he slaughtered a bunch of awoken but nobody really cares about that

[spiral crane]

And he’s just a new dude now

[ember storm]

that’s how it works with every Lightbearer

he has since learned of Uldren’s life and what he did, though

some others have also tried figuring out their past life, but Crow is the only one to actually see it with his own eyes, thanks to Savathun

[spiral crane]

Did they forgive crow?

The ppl he hurt

[ember storm]

the people he hurt are all dead

physically anyway

https://youtu.be/Tc59ZP1soWQ?si=0XIc72O_76rIn8r1

[chrome fog]

He also already dealt with random guardians curb stomping him whenever they spotted him traipsing around the Tangled Shore

[ember storm]

Amanda’s was Cayde’s friend, and she actually got to know Crow before the news got out, so their relationship also ended fairly rocky

she also died in an unrelated incident before he could fully reconcile

[chrome fog]

He was somewhat fine about not learning Uldren’s past until Savathun, during Season of the Lost, tempted him with giving him Uldren’s memories so that he could see what his past life did

He didn’t take it well

[ember storm]

iirc he didn’t actually know he was Uldren in particular

he even referenced the murder of Cayde prior to Lost, so

[chrome fog]

Well no, but he was still a bit interested in why everyone hated who he was in his past life

Then he fucked up again in Season of the Risen when he pulled the kill switch on the Psion, not knowing it would literally kill it

Hmm, was there a season between Risen and Haunted?

No wait I remember, it goes Risen, Haunted, Plunder, then Seraph

[ember storm]

year of the vanguard really ought to get better therapy resources

[chrome fog]

Yeah, so after being traumatized by the death of Caital’s closest advisor - that Psion - on his hands and Saladin taking his spot to be taken as one of Caital’s soldiers, he then had to deal with a Nightmare of Uldren taunting him with the possibility that he could become as fucked up as Uldren was by the end of his life

Thankfully we were able to cleanse the Nightmare on our second try, and Crow realized that he doesn’t necessarily have to take his past life as an omen to how things will end up for him; instead, he now has a unique benefit of having the full memories of his past life to know and avoid the same mistakes Uldren made

Then he dipped for 2 seasons, rightfully so after fuckin. Allathat happening

[chrome fog]

(He was doing vanguard recon and stuff in the background, but he’d backed off from being more involved)

Then Amanda gets kidnapped and then is assisting us with freeing prisoners in Season of Defiance, which leads to her and Crow confronting each other once again, their relationship being extremely strained by him going after Uldren’s memories in Lost

They made up and were really close to reconnecting to each other

Then she died

[grand jungle]

isnt ikora the strongest in the cruible?

[empty fern]

Sure

[trim grotto]

She's definitely a Crucible legend.

[dim minnow]

we also have Thalor who is also a famous Crucible champion

unfortunately we don't have much on him other than that he was killed by Dredgen Yor

[safe galleon]

how did the 'class' system come to be in-lore?

[dim minnow]

I don't think there's anything that went into this specifically

[safe galleon]

like, when/how did people start splitting the light into different disciplines and stuff

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[chrome fog]

Warlocks - utilization of light element in its most volatile form
Titan - augmentation of physical ability with elements
Hunter - Light as a separate tool in their kit

And there’s intersectionality between them across individuals; Shaw Han did a well of radiance but instead of a sword he shot a Golden Gun bullet into the ground, Felwinter supposedly had a shoulder bash as a Warlock, and I can only remember those two examples

Cast spells literally
Armor your shit in the element and go ham
Create a tool out of the element

[smoky rose]

I still HATE that people say Shaw did well of radiance

There is no record of it having any healing properties

Only making guns radiant in the same way that acrobat's dodge does, not in the same way well does

[chrome fog]

Buffed red jacks damage

[trim grotto]

Well of Gun
Gun of Radiance

[chrome fog]

[trim grotto]

But yeah he just applied what we'd come to know as Radiant and Felwinter just blinked and knee'd a guy

[chrome fog]

Nice third example

[smoky rose]

More of Acrobat's Gun

[chrome fog]

Does the dodge apply Radiance to other members? Wait it does nvm my memory doodoo

[smoky rose]

I'd actually be willing to bet that that lore tab directly inspired Acrobat's Dodge

[trim grotto]

That is the entire point

[dim minnow]

didn't Ana Bray's Golden Gun leave wells too?

[smoky rose]

More like elemental wells

Like the old build system

Or sunspots maybe

[dim minnow]

no, I think they were more like wells that got rid of "marked by the void"

[trim grotto]

Ana, though. When she fired the Gun, where her Golden blasts hit home, she left behind the pools of light. Like splashes of sunlight that burned and burned."

—Lord Shaxx```

[chrome fog]

Gunbracers

[rigid flower]

Speaking of Bray:

Genuinely curious if Exo's had to be designed with all human needs.

[rigid flower]

Golden Protocol.

[trim grotto]

Many, but not all.

[dim minnow]

well we know they had the need to reproduce

[rigid flower]

Ty ty was curious.

What did they leave out then?

[trim grotto]

Exo can eat. Exo did not feel hungry, however.

[rigid flower]

Oh? I thought that was a necessary part?

[trim grotto]

And the other one said, "I miss lunch. I miss getting hungry."

Then the first one replied with this weird tone, "Hmm… so you would say… you're hungry for hunger?" Which made them laugh for a long time.```

[dim minnow]

isn't it mainly the other way around?

they're still given the need to eat though

[trim grotto]

Next to him, Knox-4 sighs with relief and longing. "I miss lunch. I miss getting hungry."

Cayde grins as much as his mechanical face will allow. "Hmm…" he intones in his best Dr. Abrams impression, "So you would say… you're hungry for hunger?"

Knox bursts into guffaws. Cayde chuckles weakly. It wasn't that funny. But as his friend's laughter grows, so does Cayde's. Soon, they're both clutching each other and howling.``` same lore from another perspective

[rigid flower]

(Now you just gotta question how they're able to eat ramen without it falling out the side of their mouths)

Unless Exo's are forced to just put stuff deep into their mouths so it falls down a tube.

[chrome fog]

They can still process biological material

[hardy anvil]

Are Exo's still being made?

if so, do we know where?

and another thing is can someone link me where it talks about Shaxx burning himself alive during Crucible matches to help his sore throat?

[rigid flower]

Nope.

[jagged badge]

It’s specifically that his Ghost won’t let him incinerate himself to fix his throat on rez

[hardy anvil]

Yeah I don't remember the exact details. I was just looking for a link or something for it cause I found it funny

[trim grotto]

I know what you're referring to but for the life of me I can't find it. I'll get back to you.

[hardy anvil]

😔

One of my most favorite lore tidbits

[jagged badge]

resting my voice as i dictate this, my ghost forbids me to incinerate myself so i can return with a fresh throat. guardians did admire that trick. they called me the bellowing phoenix! ha ha! reborn in fire to shout again!```

It’s in the Witch Queen CE lore

[blazing wasp]

God I love shaxx

[solar pawn]

i still laughing at " memorable pain in my arse "

[jagged badge]

Yeah lmao

[empty fern]

Arse

[shadow crypt]

Anyone have any interesting lore?

[empty fern]

Exos are produced from vex

[shadow crypt]

fr?

I thought Clovis did some shit

or something like that

[fast tapir]

he did infact do some shit

a lot of shit

[empty fern]

Yea he was the producer

[fast tapir]

what is his producer tag

[versed orbit]

screaming braytech employees

[round pollen]

Cabal males have kangaroo like pouches where they keep their babies safe and breastfeed them

[rich veldt]

cow thing

[thorny scarab]

So why are we leaving Savathün alive?

[ember ginkgo]

why are there normal earth fish in Savathun's Throne World

[blazing wasp]

those are abso-fucking-lutely not "normal"

well

some of them are

probably just chucked em there

[ember ginkgo]

yea i see Gar and shit

[exotic cloak]

Why are there normal fish in radiolaria

Why any kind of fish is in radiolaria

[ember ginkgo]

i was doing some seasoning of the witch quest stuff and Sav mentioned reading up about Earth lore. Talking about her inspiration for a sorta jail.

So i guess while she was learning about our lore, she found out about our wildlife and just decided "these koi and gar and shit are pretty neat" and i guess they manifested in her throne world?

but i do prefer the idea of her grabbing whole bags of fish as Osiris and just dumping them in her swamps

[rich veldt]

cause we have her ghost and she could be useful to us again

[ember storm]

it’s not worth the time or effort to try killing her right now

but it IS worth the time and effort to learn how to replicate totinos pizza recipes

[vital zenith]

Yo

I got the cryothesia yesterday

I love it

Amazing pvp

[fresh zephyr]

Yo is stasis ice or what

[vital zenith]

Yeah

[fresh zephyr]

so

Ice magic

why don’t they make a water subclass

Use stasis ice and solar fire

pretty cool

drown enemies

[vital zenith]

Idk I don’t think we’ll be getting any new subclasses

We gon get some new supers tho

[fresh zephyr]

Nawh

[fast tapir]

whar

[chrome fog]

It would be exceedingly rude of us to backstab her after she literally gave us access to the Witness, she’s supposed to be the Queen of Lies not us

[chrome fog]

Just like the normal owl amidst her Throneworld creatures: cause

(Legit, she might have just imagined to populate her Throneworld with life like that)

[chrome fog]

No

[ember ginkgo]

Yea, she also just thought Moths were pretty dang neat

[jagged badge]

It’s not

[jagged badge]

Wrongo bongo

[trim grotto]

Actually the Moths are something a bit different

[ember ginkgo]

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/krill

Incredible. The Hives' own bodies transform Light into a parasite! What a wondrous adaptation!```

[ember ginkgo]

bro

[chrome fog]

I am especially glad she populated the Throneworld this way because we get this amazing piece

https://steel-peach.tumblr.com/post/721910349580976128/savathun-using-her-mind-to-manifest-animals-into

[ember ginkgo]

YESS

[vital zenith]

You telling me nah?

Crystals

Ig

[ember ginkgo]

though they could have done a better job of explaining other than "Wrongo Bongo" im guessing they mean its not technically water-ice. its some kinda extremely cold darkness crap

[trim grotto]

One moment

[hardy anvil]

it's like

a lot more different

[trim grotto]

Stasis isn't ice, nor water, at all.

Stasis is the form of control. The crystals form as we drain the energy from the area to such a significant degree that it crystallises, in a manner akin to perfect crystals.

[hardy anvil]

I'v had someone explain it to me and my brain forgot it immediately

[ember ginkgo]

but the real question is... what happens if one ingests Stasis like a popsickle

[trim grotto]

You would be consuming a crystal

[ember ginkgo]

is it approved by the national food association

if u cannot eat it, can u use it to keep ur whiskey cold

[trim grotto]

She was, in fact, telling you nah

[hardy anvil]

how many guardians have knowledge of their previous lives?

[trim grotto]

Very few. It's taboo to look into it and most of the time there's nothing left to look into.

[hardy anvil]

oh. interesting

[vital zenith]

[trim grotto]

It's funny, really. If Ana Bray hadn't been rezzed with her name badge, she may never have found out who she was.

[ember ginkgo]

taboo, what? are people actively giving you weird side-eyes if ur like "who was i? where are my Fallout voice diaries?"

[trim grotto]

Rasputin would likely have been killed by Xol, meaning the Last City would have been crushed by the Almighty.

[spiral crane]

What guardian race do ya’ll think is coolest lore wise

[hardy anvil]

EXOSSS

[ember ginkgo]

(biased)
Exo

[spiral crane]

Exos are like people that were brought back as robots right?

[ember ginkgo]

Several People are Typing

what have u done

[trim grotto]

The Vanguard have it as a bit of a rule. It draws your attention away from the now, from the people you protect and work you do. It also means you're not taking your second chance at life as an opportunity to be a new person, but to discover your old one. Like Crow, not everyone learns good things.

[trim grotto]

Essentially. Human mindscans uploaded into an Exobody.

[spiral crane]

And the. Those exobodies are brought back as guardians

[ember ginkgo]

in that case, i disrepectfully disagree with the Vanguard

[spiral crane]

Feels a little much with the double resurrection

But still cool

What are the awoken anyways

They just look like people but purple

[ember ginkgo]

Space Elves

[hardy anvil]

Drifter makes his own Taken, right?

[chrome fog]

I offer my explanation
#📚lore-discussion message

[trim grotto]

There are a lot of things I don't have time to explain
Sorry folks
Got to go

[ember ginkgo]

have a great day bro

[vestal summit]

whats the general sentiment on crow currently? last i remember there were some folk still bitter about him.

[chrome fog]

Correct! They were in an Exodus Colony ship before they got blasted by both Light and Darkness, the clash of which created a tiny pocket universe where the Awoken re-emerged from. Mara was the first to rise and helped form and organize the rest of her fellow Awoken into redeveloping themselves in the new universe they found themselves in - which know as the Distributary (of which time passes faster within that in the normal universe, which is why they were able to develop their own fleet of space ships despite the rest of humanity needing to be recovered after the Collapse). It's not wholly elaborated on too deeply, but being somewhat recreated with Light and Darkness allows Awoken the ability to interact with the Ascendent Plane and very slight paracausal abilities

[chrome fog]

He's his own person, and it's seen as a bit childish to continue attributing Uldren's actions and history onto him when the whole point is that he is now his own person as a resurrected Guardian

[ember ginkgo]

I still say "Shut up Crow" when i pass him though. For sport.

[vestal summit]

honestly, i don't feel like that anymore, he seems to own up to what uldren did, i just saw a convo between him and mara and he never says "uldren" as it was a different person, he says he regrets HIS actions.

[chrome fog]

I believe I also got into this topic a while back too

[jagged badge]

‘Cause Crow believes it his responsibility, and has chosen to take it on

[chrome fog]

Okay yeah start from here and read down a little bit, very much explains his whole dealio
#📚lore-discussion message

[jagged badge]

Even though it wasn’t him, he still feels guilty after learning it so he wants to right the wrongs of “his” past

[ember ginkgo]

maybe i would be able to move on and feel like Crow is a different person if his ass got a better haircut (and a better outfit)

[jagged badge]

Ponchos are drippy though

Ask Cal Kestis

[spiral crane]

So how would an awoken end up as a guardian?

[chrome fog]

They die

And then get rezzed

[ember ginkgo]

HIS poncho just isnt drippy sadly

imho

[chrome fog]

I like his poncho

It's slick

[spiral crane]

And they work with us instead of their own people?

[chrome fog]

Some do some don't; again, we're all humanity despite our disparate features and histories

Mara makes a big point of this when campaigning to go back to Earth within the Distributary, leaving behind all the Awoken who wanted to stay behind

An Exo is an Awoken is a Human, even with how differently they are physically

[jagged badge]

There’s plenty of Awoken who are just citizens of the Last City

They don’t have to owe their allegiances to the Reef

[spiral crane]

Do we ever go to the distributary

Is it tied to teh dreaming city

[chrome fog]

No. The Exodus Green was hit as it was just leaving the Sol System

It is way beyond anywhere we've gone; the Dreaming City, the Reef, and the Tangled Shore are within the Asteroid Belt between Mars and Saturn

When Mael comes back he might be able to tell you which Asteroid specifically the Dreaming City is built on

I think it's Ceres

With a number at the end

[thorny scarab]

I don’t feel that’s a great reason, but ok

[chrome fog]

We don't go to her level, as much as we want

[thorny scarab]

I didn’t mean like, permanently, just killing her corpse like before season of the witch

That way, we can res her again if need be

For all we know, she could be scheming against us right now

[chrome fog]

mmmmeh, she did a very very big favor for us, she can roam free while we keep Immaru captive; plus hopefully she'll stop being a conniving bastard considering she has had the revelation of the Witness' deception and, prior to that, experienced a little bit of that personal connection she and her siblings had lost in their resignment to their dependence on their Worms

It won't do us much to keep worrying - especially because we have the Witness to immediately deal with - and if she does start shit we can probably deal with it

Also Saint putting the fear of our shit into her

[thorny scarab]

Heh, “immediately”

[thorny scarab]

Fair

[thorny scarab]

Actually, that reminds me: why didn’t we send crow with a jump ship through Rivens portal

[chrome fog]

Also even if we don't get her to become less manipulative, we're very clearly a valuable resource as an ally

[thorny scarab]

Considering how long it’s taking

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

It was probably an "in the moment" thing

Plus immediacy is probably good when trying to get the Witness rn

[thorny scarab]

Indeed it is, so why not take the extra time to send him with a vehicle that can go at the speed of light

[chrome fog]

In the HELM?

But no I get it

[exotic cloak]

I mean is not like that portal was very big

And anyway Crow was supposed to be some weeks there but delay happened and now feels strange

[chrome fog]

I would love a loretab in the future where someone suggests "Hey why didn't we do this?" and Ikora or someone goes "Shit we just were flying by the seat of our pants, that would've been better but y'know how it is"

[fresh zephyr]

whats the lore behind planets going in and out of rotation?

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[dim minnow]

the disappearance of Mars, Mercury, Io, and Titan?

[spiral crane]

They blew up

[dim minnow]

so at the end of Y3, the Pyramids (Witness) came in and took them from us

we don't exactly know where the Witness keeps them though

anyways

when Witch Queen started, Mars returned which was what started the campaign for that expansion

then in Season of the Deep, Titan returned which was the catalyst for that season's story

as for Tangled Shore disappearing, if I recall it went away at the end of Y4

and the reason for that if I'm correct was because Mara Sov returned and was looking to pay Spider a visit

Spider knew this wasn't good for him, so he got out of there

and there isn't really any reason for us to be there now

so it can be assumed that the Tangled Shore is either now under Awoken control, or it is just falling into total chaos but no one really cares

[trim grotto]

4-Vesta
Ceres was demolished by the Awoken during the Reef Wars

[chrome fog]

Neato thanks

[spiral crane]

What are the differences between the different fallen houses

[dim minnow]

Kings were a ruling house back then though they did secretly lead the Devils from the shadows
Exile was a newer house made up of Fallen who were well exiled

let's see

House of Light allied with Humanity
Salvation followed the Darkness/Witness

House of Rain were more well known for prophecies

not sure about Winter or Wolves specifically

[chrome fog]

Initially it seemed like they fulfilled various production roles within Eliksni society, whether that be advising others from House Rain or weaving as the Wolves were originally the Gentle Weavers, though in the time of the Long Drift (their journey to the Sol System after escaping their Collapse, the Whirlwind) they had simplified into the various warring factions who vied for resources and societal control. Dova's explanation best describes the factions we encounter during our own time.

[dim minnow]

but they were mostly just separate "tribes"

[chrome fog]

(Also might be mixing who were the Gentle Weavers, could've been Devils)

[dim minnow]

Weavers were Wolves

Dancers were Devils

[chrome fog]

Baller

It's also interesting that those proficient in technology - Splicers - are not a house unto themselves but specialized individuals within each group. That at least seems to be the implication, but it could also be a case of a "House" of Sacred Splicers disseminated across the various skiffs early into the Long Drift, considering the importance of maintaining technology in sustaining their lives during this period of time

[dim minnow]

there's also Judgement, who acted as more of a governing force

who were spread out in each house

[spiral crane]

Did they have different opinions on use and the travler

These houses?

[dim minnow]

all of the great houses hated us

can't say much on what each house's opinions on the Traveler were

but they probably might as well have been the same

[chrome fog]

Well, prior to the Whirlwind on their homeplanet Riis, they revered the Traveler as "The Great Machine", even modeling their Servitors after her; but their opinion sank once she left to guide the Pyramid Fleet away from Riis, seeing as her running away instead of defending them

[dim minnow]

They're pretty much like Salvation only that Salvation aligned with the Witness

[chrome fog]

And as Dova mentioned, it's fairly variable what the Houses' opinions were on the Traveler especially considering they've had a lot of time to consider them, but generally they were either envious of our blessing by the Traveler and wanted it for themselves or just outright hate the Traveler for abandoning them

Nowadays, only House Light, Salvation, and Dusk really remain

[dim minnow]

and Dusk is just fighting for their lives at this point

[chrome fog]

In no small part due to our own efforts to eradicate the houses

[dim minnow]

also important to state that Dusk was the result of the great houses uniting

[chrome fog]

Was it an active unification effort or just survivors coalescing together?

[dim minnow]

out of desperation really

they were getting shit on throughout the entirety of D1

several Archons from various houses were killed
Winter and Wolves lost their kells
Devils and Wolves lost their prime servitors
Devil Splicers got wrecked
not to mention all the other high profile Fallen that were killed

they realized that divided they were fucked

so they united which made them a little less fucked

I wonder if Craask was killed at this point as well

he was the Kings Kell

I know Uldren and Fikrul docked him and left him for dead after Scorning his entire house

and the Wolves were wiped out because Reksis Vahn (Hangman) killed their servitors

[chrome fog]

Which was quite some time after we summarily kicked their asses on Mara’s order, as they had rebelled against her when previously they were working under her in servitude

[dim minnow]

I'm trying to figure out of Kings and Wolves were gone by the time D2 began

since it was around the end of D1 when Dusk started to form

[lyric cape]

So is savathun dead dead now? I didn't play season of the witch

[ember storm]

no

her ghost is still alive and she was revived again

[trim grotto]

No.

[chrome fog]

Beetle? Have we moved from mollusks into arthropods?

[ember storm]

I have always been a person of the 🪲

a real 🪲 benefactor

[spiral crane]

Why does the witness destroy all the civilizations that it comes across

Doesn’t it only want the travler

[eager trout]

It wants the Traveler's power to gain the power to alter the universe

[chrome fog]

Not quite right

[spiral crane]

but why is it nuking all the planets the travler helps

why doesnt it just beeline to the travler and ignore the civilazations

[eager trout]

Because it hates the Traveler and everything the Traveler has done

[spiral crane]

why

[chrome fog]

Because the Traveler assists these civilizations in the hopes they can oppose the Witness, which they do, and then they fall to the Witness

[spiral crane]

so the travler is using them?

[chrome fog]

The Traveler is a doorway to editing the universe, it does not necessarily have a power which builds into then editing the universe

[chrome fog]

More like giving them the ability to defend themselves

[spiral crane]

brings me to my point of why the witness would attack them at all and not the travler

unless the civilizations are trying to defend the travler

[chrome fog]

They’re disillusioned with the Traveler as a “deity” because it did not entertain their entitlement to a meaning to existence

[chrome fog]

Better to check them off the list and make sure there’s no further obstacles in trying to get to the Traveler

If it leaves any species blessed by the Traveler, they might point out and realize how much of an entitled infant it’s being and how stupid it is going to such extreme lengths to establish an inherent definition to existence just because they had an existential crisis

Those blessed civilizations will most likely fight back against it because its ideals and promises don’t exactly sound like the most sound mindset to subscribe to

[spiral crane]

maybe it also sees them as unworthy succesors to the travlers blessings

its stupid but its not like the witness is anywhere near emotionally mature

[chrome fog]

Also possible; another perspective is that it’s “freeing” them from the Traveler’s influence in that same vein of ideological bias

[spiral crane]

thats an intresting take

[chrome fog]

I mean that’s essentially the “Salvation” it’s offering as its end goal

[spiral crane]

so the witness finds meaning in death?

or something like that?

[chrome fog]

Because if there were an inherent meaning to existence, it would prevent the possibility of any other way of living, that would make it so all sentient life would subscribe to this one ideology and cannot deviate because that mindset is now an established law of reality

[rigid flower]

I find it odd that Zavala is much more against using darkness in WQ than BL.

[chrome fog]

It wants to enforce its meaning of death, as well as everything else

[chrome fog]

He was more so upset Ikora was being secretive than the use of Deepsight

[rigid flower]

I got that, which imo both of them are in the right.

I just find it strange that Zavala doesn't have an outburst during BL.

Meanwhile he continues to beat it over our heads that darkness is a terrible thing if you can't control it in WQ.

[spiral crane]

i feel like the extent of destruction and cruelty with which it destoryed the civilizations would imply that it views those civilizations negativley

so i dont think it views what its doing as "freeing"

[rigid flower]

Also I don't think this is correct.

Unless its some new stuff in the ce lorebook.

That aside, The Witness saw the light as uncontrollable chaos. It wants to shape (lol) the universe in a way that said chaos and destruction, the unending life and death, is no longer a thing.

Just put everything in a perfect state.

Or rather how it see's it should be perfect.

[chrome fog]

Exactly. What it sees as perfect, not necessarily taking into account “perfection” is not universal across each individual even in the same race, same civilization, much less across a myriad of them all

[chrome fog]

I don’t think so either but it’s already deluded itself into believing it is wholly within the right

The act of eradicating those civilizations is most likely equal parts disdain for all that the Traveler influences, tactical advantage of erasing a potential threat, and a genuine belief of its actions being justified

[dim minnow]

problem is that it doesn't even wipe them out tactily

[spiral crane]

Might be more out of spite than tactics

It could be leaving a few survivors on purpose so they can live in the ruins

[dim minnow]

it could have ended this long ago

taking way too long

[spiral crane]

I hope we find out what exactly the witness believes gives meaning to teh universe

[dim minnow]

leaving its enemies a chance to win

[spiral crane]

Wdym

[dim minnow]

think of it like this, the Witness wiped out a race in probably moments

or minutes but what's important is that it was a very short amount of time

[chrome fog]

I mean most of this is just what’s in its head, so not even doing what it says would be possible; it’s not as if it actually is infalliable

[dim minnow]

it could do that to anyone, even us

and if it did, it would have enacted the FInal Shape by now

[spiral crane]

Maybe it’s busy with the travler

Maybe it’s bad writing

[dim minnow]

the Witness is just hateful

it moved so far away from what it was meant to be

[spiral crane]

Wdym meant to be?

[dim minnow]

have you read Entelechy?

the TFS CE book?

[chrome fog]

I mean. We sort of already know; whilst not the Sword Logic exactly, it’s very obvious that the Witness endorses a very similar ideology of Might makes Right, of Social Darwinism

[spiral crane]

Nope

[dim minnow]

ah, well that book goes into detail on the flaws the Witness suffers from

[spiral crane]

How so

[dim minnow]

basically explaining that the Witness forgot its past and such

to the point where its actions actively get in the way of its efforts

all so it can try and vindicate itself

[chrome fog]

It’s wholly supportive of the Hive’s antics (genocides) and the Winnower’s goal in the Flower Games is in the same vein as the Hive’s Sword Logic

It regards Oryx as “My man” and believed Savathun to be a prospective disciple

[spiral crane]

Does it support the hives genocides in general or is it just approving of its genocides of travler civilizations

[spiral crane]

What do u mean?

Has it forgotten its goal?

[spiral crane]

Did it actually call oryx “my man”

Lmao

[dim minnow]

more so it lost the idea

[spiral crane]

So it doesn’t understand why it does what it does

It just does it

[dim minnow]

I think it getting distracted is a better way to [ut it

it has the same goal, to enact the Final Shape

[spiral crane]

Distracted in what way

[chrome fog]

From how despondent itself is about eradicating civilizations in its wake with its own efforts, I don’t think it minds the Hive going after any species in their conquest

[pure tree]

question, so is hive necromancy a distinctly hive power that is separate from the darkness, or a darkness power that the hive uses?

or do we not really know yet

[spiral crane]

I’m that case I’d argue it specifically wants it to irradicate traveler civilizations

[chrome fog]

We’re not sure, as necromancy itself is taboo to the Hive

[spiral crane]

And it does t care about any collateral damage

[dim minnow]

we don't even have much info on necromancy itself

[pure tree]

cuz like, savathun said that human guardians are unique in their ability to use both light and dark, but then in ghosts, simmumah uses the light obv as a lightbearer, but also necromancy to repeatedly raise vorlog

[chrome fog]

I’d extend it to it doesn’t even care so long as it gets to the Traveler and gets the portal open with the Veil

[spiral crane]

Does it have some way to track the travler

I just realized it always seems to know exactly where it is

[chrome fog]

She most likely yoinked that knowledge from Nokris, Oryx’s disowned son, when she gave him refuge

[chrome fog]

I mean it’s a massive paracausal object and it has technology which has been developed to induce itself paracausal in nature (the Pyramids, that mast thing from Lightfall), so it would track that it could locate the Traveler

The reason why it didn’t open the portal sooner was because Savathun hid the Veil

[spiral crane]

So why doesn’t it immediately come to the travelers position all the time

Why is there a delay

From when the tracker settles and when the pyramids arrive

[chrome fog]

Get forces to bolster its own fleet, spread its belief to get more to follow its cause, which would then make it easier to receive its own end goals and prevent the development of opposition that might pose a threat

And also probably because it wants to indulge in its cruelty

[dim minnow]

that was their agreement

Savathun learns necromancy while Nokris gets to study Quria

[spiral crane]

Does it rlly need the help?

It crushed pretty much everything in its path

[dim minnow]

al the while Nokris has to interfere with the Pyramids (Witness') attempts to send messages to us

[spiral crane]

It’s probably the most powerful being in the game (aside from the traveler maybe)

[dim minnow]

not like the Witness can be everywhere at once

[hardy anvil]

What's the entire lore of destiny 2

[spiral crane]

Why would it need to be

It just needs to be one place

Where the traveler is

[dim minnow]

Death Star logic

[spiral crane]

Big ball gets chased by big triangles

[shadow wyvern]

Big ball good, protect big ball.

[spiral crane]

Don’t forget the triangles

[spiral crane]

What is that

[dim minnow]

simply put
Compare the Death Star and an entire fleet of ships made from the same amount of materials

the Death Star is huge and can destroy any planet in seconds, but it is slow and can only be in 1 place at once

not to mention its weakness

if its gone, instant blow to your army

but if you have the fleet instead

[spiral crane]

So ur saying the witness went with option two and spread itself out

[dim minnow]

sort of, I'm mainly just trying to explain why the Witness relies on followers a good amount of the time

[spiral crane]

But the Death Star could be destroyed

I don’t see anything powerful enough to destroy the witness

[dim minnow]

the main point of the analogy was to point out the lack of mobility

besides, the Witness will probably get turned into a gun or something in TFS anyways

[spiral crane]

Going directly for the travler wouldn’t make it less slow

It would speed up it operation

[dim minnow]

good luck finding it though

[spiral crane]

Bioncle said they have a way to track the travler

If they don’t then what ur saying makes sense

Because they’d need to find it

[dim minnow]

I don't really think its tracking is that simple

[chrome fog]

Yeah but then what if it gets caught being attacked by multiple fleets and species? Even if their attacks are ineffective it would be severely distracting from doing its thing

[dim minnow]

and even then, having additional help makes the chase easier

makes it more spread out

more coverage

maybe even have the assistance take over with chasing the Traveler for a bit while its busy doing something else

[spiral crane]

What else would it be doing?

[spiral crane]

Fair point

[dim minnow]

torturing other species the Traveler blessed

[hardy anvil]

So where do engrams come from

[dim minnow]

hold on

[spiral crane]

Ok

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/ghost-scan-core-terminus-mars-2?highlight=engram

[spiral crane]

How does the witness work exactly

Like it’s an entire race

But one thing

[dim minnow]

all of them merged into a single entity

[spiral crane]

So is it a single entity

[dim minnow]

I suppose so

[spiral crane]

No individual thoughts between the minds

Like Jerry from the witness planet can’t think of something while most of the witness thinks of something else

[dim minnow]

I feel its like each mind has an impact on how the Witness thinks and acts

not neccessarily each mind thinking on its own

[shadow crypt]

Are Guardians basically just dead people who got revived by ghosts with the power of the traveler?

[dim minnow]

in fact, I think I have an idea as to why the Witness is so desperate to vindicate itself

[dim minnow]

yeah

[spiral crane]

Yeah?

[spiral crane]

What’s ur idea

[shadow wyvern]

Yes. Except one guy iirc.

[dim minnow]

well, I would have to go into Entelechy a bit

[shadow crypt]

Who

[dim minnow]

Shin doesn't count

[spiral crane]

Sure

[shadow wyvern]

Was it Shin? I forget

[dim minnow]

he died when he was a baby and was rezzed

[shadow wyvern]

Some guy who just adopted a ghost

[spiral crane]

As long as it’s canon

[dim minnow]

well all Destiny lore is canon

anyways

so some parts of Entelechy describe two specific members of the Witness' race

hold on let me pull up the ids for them

ok so there is RS and HN

this is before the Witness came to be

[shadow wyvern]

You’re thinking about this the wrong way. You yourself are thinking of one thing while the rest of your mind is thinking of something else, no?

[dim minnow]

now they were both close friends and they both had philisophical debates on the Final Shape

[spiral crane]

What?

[dim minnow]

at some point, the two had a falling out and RS left

[shadow wyvern]

You think and are conscious of more things than you’re aware of.

[dim minnow]

then some time passes and the Witness' species agrees to become one (mostly by killing off any political opposition)

[shadow wyvern]

If your mind can be fragmented like this then the Witness can be fragmented like that. One mind but not one mind.

[spiral crane]

Well im a single entity and the witness is described as being a fusion of millions of diverse and different people

With different ideals and lives and stuff

[dim minnow]

before HN joins in, they express disdain that RS won't be there to join them

HN even goes as far to say that RS not joining in gives them doubt about the whole thing

[shadow wyvern]

Disdain? He was sad about it.

[dim minnow]

so maybe when RS still did not join in, HN was left with their doubt which carried on over to the Witness

[dim minnow]

yeah

[spiral crane]

Do u mean them as in all of the species or a non gendered way of referring to that person

[dim minnow]

these three pages go over the Witness and its flaws pretty well

[spiral crane]

So was that dude the sole person with doubt?

[dim minnow]

possibly

I mean, they were all in consensus about becoming the Witness

so even if HN was all for it, they still longed for RS to join in

[spiral crane]

Jeez

So the witness is spiteful and hatful

[dim minnow]

and it is my idea that this doubt had an impact on the Witness itself and is why it wants to vindicate its beliefs so desperatelty

[dim minnow]

pretty much one of its main flaws

[spiral crane]

And that’s why is shared it’s idealogy

It wants to have people who believe in it

So it thinks it’s right

[dim minnow]

you know, that's probably also a huge part of it

[spiral crane]

It’s hilarious to think that all of this bs is also why it hasn’t been able to make the final shape until now

[dim minnow]

seriously though, if you want to get a lot of insight into the Witness, read Entelechy

[spiral crane]

It was too busy being hateful and vindicating its ideals

[dim minnow]

we have a link to it in the pins of this channel

[spiral crane]

That it was distracted

[spiral crane]

I’ll check it out sometime

[dim minnow]

those pictures I posted were from Entelechy

[shadow wyvern]

Tbh it sounded more like an election to me and the extremists won the election

[dim minnow]

maybe that's what it's meant to represent

[shadow wyvern]

So its less consensus more “well we had a system and that led to us following what the extremists want”

They won so lets all just fuse ggs

[chrome fog]

Shin would be Ghostless like Osiris and Eris, he was still rezzed but 1) he was rezzed fairly early in his mortal life, and 2) he lost his ghost essentially immediately after

Other than that he’s a fairly standard former lightbearer

[shadow wyvern]

Right. Makes sense.

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/patternfall

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that this falls exactly in line with how the "Darkness" is described in the Books of Sorrow when Oryx met it

[chrome fog]

Not only is it hilarious but also further pushes that agenda that the Witness endorsed the Hive’s slaughter

[dim minnow]

now this makes me wonder, was that really the Witness Oryx met?

since Entelechy establishes how far apart the Winnower in Unveiling is from the Witness

because then that would give the implication that the Witness was pretending to be an ideal version of itself in front of Oryx

[shadow wyvern]

It wasnt the witness

It was winnower

👀

[dim minnow]

but the Winnower isn't real

[shadow wyvern]

The Winnower is real

@ me on TFS

[still kiln]

so is there an actual reason with like new lore for the VOG or is it just like gameplay reasons as just an easy way to add a new raid? same question for oryx and crota too

[dim minnow]

the reprisal of D1 raids aren't canon

[still kiln]

so theyre just there to be new raids without actually making new raids?

and kinda to use nastolgia?

[dim minnow]

well, it's not that simple as copypasting the raid

they have to adjust it so it fits with D2

[still kiln]

i know they tweaked and revamoed some of it of course

[dim minnow]

in fact, Crota's End is actually very different in D2

sure the main stuff is still there, but the mechanics got a huge overhaul

[still kiln]

but in the end they have no actual lore reasons beyond what the original had correct?

[dim minnow]

yes

[still kiln]

alright, then do we know what ever actually happened with the vault of glass post destiny 1 content stuff?

[dim minnow]

we never got any actual VoG stuff post D1 no

post D1Y1 yes with the House of Wolves and Paradox mission

but nothing in D2 yet

maybe in Echoes

[still kiln]

feels weird we kinda forget something so important considering we have seen post atheon that it is still of great importance to the vex

post atheon death*

[dim minnow]

well, Lightfall and Season of the Deep did give us some context at least

the Black Garden's Heart was a failed Veil copy which the Vex were using to power the Vault of Glass so that they can essentially do what the Witness is trying to do

hmmm, you know I just remembered that VoG uses a lot of triangles in its symbology

like the door to Atheon's room or the glass Throne

[still kiln]

to be fair the black garden is sol divisive territory who are kinda seen as close to "taboo" as vex can have if i recall right

[dim minnow]

it's just remindign me of the Pale Heart portal

[still kiln]

fair nuff

vex have to be one of my favorite factions

[dim minnow]

have you seen one of my favorite lore excerpts about them?

The Vex are, so far, simply curious. But Vex curiosity always leads to Vex transformation [...]

The Vex will not rest until every star has been crushed into a black hole and every newborn cosmos filled with more Vex. And in the unending array of their enslaved cosmos, they will simulate all possible pasts, and fill those with Vex, so that all things that have ever lived or might ever live will experience infestation and consumption and torment by the silica nightmare.

And in those devoured simulations, the simulated Vex will use our flesh as hosts for yet more nested universes full of yet more nested copies of us eternally tormented by yet more Vex.

An infinite regression of pain and madness inflicted upon every possible version of us in every possible world. Not because they hate us, or fear us, or want to punish us. But because they are indifferent and curious, and they will do every possible thing to us in every possible way.```

[still kiln]

ahhhh, lovecraft terminators

say what you want about the state of the game, i fricken love how complex the lore gets

[chrome fog]

It’s a lorebook we get from the Pyramids in a season that opens with the Witness pulling its mimicry bullshit and presenting itself as “Salvation”, regardless of the truth behind the existence of the Winnower it’s clear the Witness believes itself aligned with the values presented by the Winnower

[little gorge]

don't vex just do that

like there's a lot of triangle doors in the vexnet for example

[dim minnow]

but the triangles seen in VoG are different

[still kiln]

also love how ahamkara's stuff works like monkeys paws even against people like oryx lmao

oryx: ya wanna be taken?

Riven: only if you wish for me to be taken

Oryx: ya know the funny thing is I know you're playing me..but you're right

Like all this other complex stuff, then ya have ahamkara

Ya hear of dragons?

Ya hear of monkeys paws?

Monkeys paw dragon, boom.

[dim minnow]

it even curls against the Ahamkara

when they make their own wish, they fade away

[still kiln]

Well I imagine that's why they use other people's wishes to add the stuff they want as the side effects

[trim grotto]

That, and if someone got everything they ever wanted with a Wish, then they'd never need to return to the Ahamkara

And so the Ahamkara would not feed on them again

[dim minnow]

oh, almost forgot

[trim grotto]

[still kiln]

Had an idea of a character who jokingly used a piece of an ahamkara to be able to come back from the dead, and it was granted, and as the paw curls, it guarantees that it will be put to the test, grizzly deaths, stuck as a phantom waiting to be unknowingly brought back, or even sometimes in the case of being trapped in a vex simulation, it isn't really even them coming back, but instead as they die, another of them from another timeline is then dragged into their place. They would die, and in one way or another, they would come back. They would even be denied their final rest, unless, of course, they wished for it, but who's to say what that would entail?

Not too serious, just seemed like a fun idea

Then again, maybe it's just cause it's 3 am and I spent way too long just reading lore shiz and ain't thinking straight-

[trim grotto]

Unless you're running under the tenuous assumption that we're in a Prime timeline, wouldn't that imply a very real chance that they could be stolen from their timeline themselves?

[still kiln]

Could be, fun idea of the vex scenario is pondering how many times they died, if they're the right one, if they'll make it, if they're even real

The story would end with them finding the thing they used to make the wish and obviously wishing to end it

[still kiln]

They start losing track, forgetting why they were even there, just remembering to pass their gun or leave it available for the next them they see, that gun had to make it to them, and they had find out why it was important, and if they couldn't, then they'd have to make sure the next one did the same

A near endless paradox of countless timelines being dragged to those who made the wish, linked until someone renounces the wish

[hybrid frigate]

Does the witness actually have a army or is just him, rhulk and nezarec

[jagged badge]

It has its disciples, it has the Taken, it has Tormentors, soon Subjugators and it has Xivu and the rest of the Hive (excluding the Lucent Brood ofc)

[ember storm]

Rhulk was essentially the only person who genuinely liked the witness and being its underling

[empty fern]

He was a little quirky

[spiral crane]

What gives us the darkness powers in beyond light

Was it the witness

Or the darkness

[empty fern]

Witness, tempting us to the other side

[spiral crane]

Did it specifically want us to kill eramis or did it just want us to convert

[empty fern]

Convert,

Waltz or eris or Dova or mael or bionic can give a much much much longer explanation

[jagged badge]

No

[empty fern]

Mutiny
BANNED

[eager trout]

How does Omolon Strand juice work?

I get the others, since they make more sense

Even Void makes some sense if you stretch the explanation

But how do you even put Strand in liquid form?

[delicate nimbus]

Green buggers

[chrome fog]

Nah Nexus got it right, just wanted us to convert. Wasn’t too deep, it was already using Eramis and House Salvation as like a pocket army that could be useful, or even to give us a target that only it can help with, setting up that temptation to accept its favor

[exotic cloak]

Witness did a little trolling

[ember storm]

the darkness is not an entity that gives things out

Stasis was explicitly a tool the witness used for manipulation for us and Eramis

the thought process essentially being whoever was more worthwhile as an asset would overcome the other

[hoary quest]

Maybe my question is stupid, but where chronologically classic company on Moon?
Before what season it's should be done?

[ember storm]

we were the ones who won, but we’ve denied everything else the witness has tried winning us over with, so it resorted to thawing out Eramis and just using her as a pawn

[ember storm]

I don’t understand

Is classic company the name of a quest, or

[hoary quest]

"Shadow keep" quest's or whatever it named

[ember storm]

shadow keep is the first full dlc you can play in story order

forsaken would be before it but the story was removed from the game

all of the seasons up until Lightfall (this year, starting with Defiance) are also gone

chronological order is the same as release order

if you want to play like that, just play the order they came out

story is built that way

[hoary quest]

I play on main as it feels better for grind and in chrono prior on other.

Thanks.

[spiral crane]

How much domain did the warlord light bearers hold

[empty fern]

About as much as a post apocalyptic world would let them

[blazing wasp]

varied between warlord to warlord

[empty fern]

So like fist of the North Star levels

[blazing wasp]

shaxx had a pretty sizable area

[spiral crane]

Shaxx was a warlord????

Wth

[empty fern]

Yea

[blazing wasp]

Why do you think he's called "lord"

[spiral crane]

weren’t they all assholes

[empty fern]

He wasn’t all that iron

[empty fern]

Yea he was part of it too

And was very brutal

[blazing wasp]

mostly, but shaxx was actually pretty nice for a warlord

[spiral crane]

I never really talked to him I didn’t think about it much

[blazing wasp]

emphasis on that latter part

still did a lot of things

that he very much regrets

[spiral crane]

Did he go through a redemption arc or sum

[empty fern]

Think so, forgot exactly (I never read it)

[blazing wasp]

pretty sure he just... realised over time that what he did was bad

he kinda knew it at the time too

maybe he thought it was a neccessary evil? i dunno

[spiral crane]

Probably just wanted power

[blazing wasp]

not "just"

maybe partially

but there was this whole thing where shaxx was actively contributing to the well being of his people when his wall was broken and a storm was going to come in

[spiral crane]

So he did care about his subjects

[blazing wasp]

he was apparently a good enough dude to be invited to be a iron lord

he rejected, had a fight with felwinter over it

felwinter spammed supers at him and shaxx, the fucking chad, used minimal light

shaxx didnt die once, felwinter died several times

[empty fern]

Mayhem match with your new light friend be like

[smoky rose]

He decapitated an Iron Lord

[chrome fog]

He and Misraaks shared stories of them killing their own people during Splicer, in a lore tab of a very neat hand canon

Shaxx murdered beggars hiding within his territory, Misraaks ejected captured humans
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/survivors-epitaph

[shadow wyvern]

Theyre nice dudes now tho

I mean encouraging immortal beings to kill each other for murder practice is pretty fucked up

But still chill nice dudes

[chrome fog]

Shaxx is very much a man weighed upon by his sins and transgressions, which he escapes through his energetic announcer personality. This is shown both in that lore tab as well as with his regrets in participating in the Great Ahamkara Hunt

[smoky rose]

I mean I think it's perfectly reasonable

If you are an immortal gladiator what better way to hone your skills than killing each other over and over

[shadow wyvern]

Uhm ethics

[chrome fog]

This was partially a necessity, as warlords truly were ruthless and would do anything to gain territory; the Iron Lords and especially Felwinter’s persistence in recruiting him to their cause, which was to unite as a protector force for those of humanity which couldn’t defend themselves

[shadow wyvern]

Like killing each other over and over again, that causes psychological damage

[smoky rose]

No, it causes you to be stronger

[chrome fog]

Well, guardians have partial pain resistance and it is a necessary skill to learn how to get back from death, Saint explained this to Savathun; this paired with practicing live fire scenarios in a consensual setting seems pretty ok

[smoky rose]

You get used to being incinerated

[shadow wyvern]

The Drifter is fucked up from dying over and over again.

[smoky rose]

The Drifter is fucked up because of the things he's seen

Not dying over and over again

[shadow wyvern]

The dude has issues from starving to death

And being constantly rezzed

[smoky rose]

No he has issues because a village took him in and then Iron lords used it as bait and razed it to the ground

And a little girl died in his arms

[shadow wyvern]

The dude has a lot of issues and traumatic experiences

Doesn’t mean that experience wasn’t a part of that

[smoky rose]

It's important guardians get used to being incinerated, obliterated, shot 60 times, physically removing a chunk of lower torso and chucking it into a wall

You need to get used to that

[empty fern]

Shaxx best husbando confirmed

[quasi iron]

why are dreg dreg

wait i have a lore question

why dont shanks have crit

[empty fern]

You ever seen a lesser person

[smoky rose]

Because they violated the law and got caught

[empty fern]

They do it’s just very small

[chrome fog]

Nnnnooooo, he’s fucked up from what he’s experienced other Lightbearers do, as well as the trauma leading into death. Dying itself didn’t fully contribute to his issues, he had issues that exacerbated his experience dying over and over again from starvation, especially when he refused his ghost’s offer to mitigate the pain of starvation

[quasi iron]

are vandals female and dregs male

bcus in my mind they are

[chrome fog]

No

Not at all

[smoky rose]

As a result they had their ether rations cut and two of their arms chopped off

[empty fern]

I know what you’ve seen now

[smoky rose]

That's what makes a dreg a dreg

[empty fern]

Tho I don’t think we’ve had any in game models have gender differences

[chrome fog]

They are not gendered roles, Vandal is basically a Dreg who hasn’t done something which called for their arms to get docked

[empty fern]

Shanks only worth while lore is the text edio says during splicer battlebus area

[smoky rose]

And their smaller size is due to reduced ether rations as an additional punishment

Fallen sizes are entirely based on how much ether they get

[quasi iron]

????????

[shadow wyvern]

Ya’ll really believe that the experience of dying over and over again due to starvation did not fuck him up?

[chrome fog]

Adding to this, technically the original size of a healthy Eliksni would be Captain sized; due to hierarchical portioning and scarce resources during their travel to the Sol System, they had shrunken down

[shadow wyvern]

I didn’t even realize fallen had different sizes

To me Cabal = fat and big, Fallen = small and slim, Guardians in Crucible = ants

[chrome fog]

The Starvation traumatized him; and so did death, that’s probably something a great many guardians have faced with

But again, in order to carry out their objectives, Guardians are going to have to get used to dying a lot and learn to recover as quickly as possible

[chrome fog]

A Captain and especially an Archon are significantly more bigger than a dreg

[shadow wyvern]

Do most guardians really die that many times?

Don’t most guardians just hang around edz and cosmodrome bullying people

[chrome fog]

You’re gonna in a post apocalypse filled with hostile aliens roaming about

Wonder what your thoughts are on the Thantonauts

A group of researchers who observe Guardians that die multiple times voluntarily to explore everything about dying and coming back
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/search/thanatonauts/

[smoky rose]

Thanatonauts literally kill themselves in interesting and unique ways to see if they get different visions

[smoky rose]

Gameplay =/= lore

Lore is more like GM or contest raid difficulty

Something bad hits you you are FUCKED up

Either dead or very close to dead hoping to god the light can fix you

[chrome fog]

And again, roving warbands of homicidal aliens

[smoky rose]

Where a dreg shock pistol, if not absorbed by your armor, leaves you with a golfball sized hole

[chrome fog]

This is a better insight into thanatonautical thought than the one tagged in the search
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/to-map-the-unknown

This one is a good demonstration of why Guardians need to get used to Death
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/into-the-fray

[vestal summit]

i'm enjoying Season of the wish story very much, i love Riven.

Mara and Crows relationship is also really good imo.

[hybrid frigate]

Is the witness mad cause bad?

[exotic cloak]

Witness basically wants to give universe a reason, to do so they will restart the entire universe and recreate it to their own perfect image

Killing everyone in the process

[vestal summit]

and what did the witness witness?

[exotic cloak]

https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?si=qIuwR4nL5VGLKLFn

That will give you a better answer

[vestal summit]

oh, i can finally witness what the witness witnessed.

[exotic cloak]

Bro wanted meaning

Bro witnessed meaning

Now wants everyone to have meaning, but we don't

[vestal summit]

Me when Riven says "Last Wish"

[exotic cloak]

It was not the last

[vestal summit]

5 years waiting for the 15th wish only for there to be a 16th?

[exotic cloak]

Oh wait I forgot you were talking about current season

[hybrid frigate]

Seems like abit of a control freak and god complex

[exotic cloak]

I mean, it is

[hybrid frigate]

Are enemy factions willingly siding with him, and why if they’re all gonna die lol

[exotic cloak]

Witness and their followers believe they are more than gods

[hybrid frigate]

Like the fallen?

[exotic cloak]

Don't remember the fallen believing they are gods but I started playing last year so maybe missed something

[hybrid frigate]

It’s seems kinda odd that if the witness is gonna thanos snap that every faction is siding with him and not against him

[vestal summit]

Only SOME cabal are willingly siding with the witness, besides that taken, scorn (which are zombies controlled by him), SOME fallen since the witness is basically bullying Eramis, the Vex that praise the darkness and can problably travel to the new universe just as they did before.

huh, actually thats more than i thought.

[spiral crane]

Wait the witness wants to kill everyone

[vestal summit]

wait, if the witness's race had the veil when the traveller fled, how did it get to neptune?

[jagged badge]

What was the 16th?

[vestal summit]

There's no 16th wish.

i was just bamboozled.

[jagged badge]

I’m confused

[jagged badge]

Savathûn killed Nezarec and hid the Veil there

The Witness was unaware of this betrayal

[exotic cloak]

I mean Shadow Legion are clones

And a bunch of actual Cabal

But mainly just Calus fat ass and his clones

[empty fern]

Savathun out here disabling both the witnesses disciples

[shadow crypt]

Who’s the strongest disciple of the Witness?

[dim minnow]

unknown

Rhulk is a good contender though

but so far we only know the existence of 4 disciples

Rhulk
Nezarec
Calus
and the unknown one from Inspiral

[shadow crypt]

Ohh

Is Rhulk a tormentor?

[dim minnow]

no

[shadow crypt]

I noticed they looked kinda similar

oh ok

[ember storm]

tormentors are more related to nezarec than anything

[dim minnow]

that's just because Rhulk is juiced on Pyramid stuff and Tormentors were created(?) by the Witness

[dim minnow]

this too

[ember storm]

Whether they be genetic copies, descendants, or whatever, they have actual references and visual similarities to Nezzy

Rhulk has visual ties to the upcoming subjugators, though

mainly limb structure and overall posture for both

[shadow crypt]

Oh so Rhulk had his own race

[ember storm]

well yeah

[spiral crane]

Calus obviously

[ember storm]

but he committed global genocide and destroyed his entire planet

so none of his actual race are left

[dim minnow]

he was the last of his kind

[ember storm]

Subjugators would have to be clones or genetic copies

[shadow crypt]

Why did he destroy his home world?

[ember storm]

because he’s a pathetic loser with daddy issues who the witness manipulated

[trim grotto]

Because he's an angry gremlin with anger issues

[ember storm]

anyway

[dim minnow]

it's a series of events

[ember storm]

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/e/e5/NyxTormentorP1Info.jpg

[dim minnow]

there's an entire lore book about it, Shattered Suns

[ember storm]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/3/31/NezarecFGOP.webp/revision/latest?cb=20230401091206

[ember storm]

note the builds and their hands/feet

[shadow crypt]

Nez looks very funny imo

[dim minnow]

specifically he got sick of everyone being hypocrites

[ember storm]

well he was essentially forced to grow that way thanks to a traveler life beam

it’s not his Sunday best

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/5/55/RhulkInfobox.jpg

Rhulk is taller and basically has raptor feet

[shadow crypt]

Rhulk looks cooler

[exotic cloak]

Wait the beam that hits him in the battle is the traveler beam

[ember storm]

https://static0.gamerantimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/wm/2023/08/destiny-2-final-shape-subjugator.jpg

subs too

[chrome fog]

The nihilistic sentiment which is the basis for a lot of its actions is not unintentional, another very famous nihilist posed a big enough threat to bring the world against him

[empty fern]

Kinda

[exotic cloak]

Rhulk IS cooler

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-witness-me-when-on-my-way-gif-27570628

[shadow crypt]

I agree

[empty fern]

Unaffected

[chrome fog]

Eliksni exalted the Traveler as the Great Machine until she left to draw the Pyramid fleet away

[ember storm]

Rhulk just traded one unhealthy relationship for another

he sucks at literally everything he does that’s of his own accord

his only accomplishments are the ones the witness handheld him through

[exotic cloak]

I mean I know they saw Traveler as a god but they didn't believe they themselves were gods as far as I know

[ember storm]

which was just being a muscle head to force the worm gods into cooperation

[shadow crypt]

Has Savathun ever fought any of the Disciples?

[spiral crane]

He looks smart thou

[ember storm]

he’s not

he’s the antithesis of smart

[exotic cloak]

I was referring that Witness and Witness followers thinks they all are more than gods, Ikora pretty said that after beating Rhulk

[ember storm]

he’s a redditor

his fills his halls with useless trinkets and random experiments because he thinks that’s what being smart means

[chrome fog]

It’s not like it’s presenting Salvation as the death of existence as they know it, and also almost all of those factions are mindless, which is not a coincidence because any sane being with an ounce of sense would see how childish it is

[spiral crane]

Like look how bros standing he looks like a fucking nerd

[ember storm]

just remember he went out whining for approval

Calus said some random word we don’t know the meaning of and nezarec at least threatened us

[exotic cloak]

Okey if Rhulk is a Redditor what are Calus and Nezarec

[chrome fog]

He’s a dipshit jock

[ember storm]

Politician and Scarecrow

[exotic cloak]

Accurate

[ember storm]

Arkham scarecrow is still more threatening than nez would ever be though

[chrome fog]

Nezarec feels like he’s in it for the trolls legitimately

[spiral crane]

What does nez look like

[ember storm]

I already sent a photo

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-root-of-nightmares-lightfall-disciple-the-witness-gif-15714594593320992912

[ember storm]

clown

[spiral crane]

Is that him?

[exotic cloak]

What's the beam that hits nezarec during its battle

[ember storm]

nezarec wasn’t in a battle

he was a dismembered head

the traveler’s light used against the witness just hit him too

[exotic cloak]

I mean the actual combat in the raid

[spiral crane]

The hive ppl look cooler than the disciples ngl

[chrome fog]

That’s just one of his bodies supposedly; we don’t have that much on him, aside from the fact he has multiple tombs and is supposedly well-versed in controlling Light and Darkness. We also know he continues to speak after we beat him in the Root of Nightmares raid, which gives further credence that he’s incorporeal

[exotic cloak]

Is that the traverler beam randomly hitting him?

[ember storm]

is the raid not about connecting light and darkness beams?

I’ve never done RoN

Regardless the traveler isn’t awake in any capacity to actively fire anything

[spiral crane]

Sleepyhead

[ember storm]

more like coma

but that isn’t anything new

[spiral crane]

Comahead

[ember storm]

now it’s in a coma with a brain tumor

[chrome fog]

Probably some of that latent Paracausality from the spot Nezarec was blasted in and him drawing it in

Legit this fucker is a mystery

[exotic cloak]

Damn

[spiral crane]

Do ya’ll like the fact that the witness is the big bad or did u prefer when it was just the darkness

[chrome fog]

Darkness as an evil force was kinda boring

[exotic cloak]

Was pretty boring and generic

And the characters just hating darkness because yes was also annoying, Witness is way more interesting

[chrome fog]

I like the Witness being such a clear and blatant hypocritical nihilistic pessimist being who is fucking it up for everyone

[spiral crane]

It’s definitely intresting

I just wish he didn’t look so stupid

Pulls the villain down a bit

[ember storm]

it’s much more interesting now that all of the boring “the darkness” talk in D1 is retroactively designed to be zealous teachings from the Speaker

anything and everything he disagreed with was darkness

fallen, cabal, Osiris

[exotic cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-witness-me-when-on-my-way-gif-27570628

[chrome fog]

The inhumanity of its design is sorta supposed to illicit this response, fucker is so detached from its mortality and morality it looks like a dipshit

[exotic cloak]

Honestly when I saw Lightfall trailer I thought bro was good

[ember storm]

literally how

[spiral crane]

That massive unibrow is hilarious

[ember storm]

I still have this one piece of fan art I found that would make the witness’ design a million times better with one simple trick

[spiral crane]

It’s honestly the more human parts of it that look dumb

Like its little nose

[ember storm]

just invert the colors

make it look vaguely taken

add a space texture to it

[spiral crane]

The way it holds its hands like it thinks it’s a smartass

[chrome fog]

Exactly

[exotic cloak]

That's the point

[chrome fog]

Because that’s essentially what it is, a smartass about existence

And it’s hilariously dumb and somewhat off putting

[spiral crane]

He yells at calus all the time for being a dumbass but he looks like as much as a dumbass as him

[ember storm]

https://twitter.com/bioluminosity/status/1589036325071900674

bio 🔺 entelechial era (@bioluminosity) on X

Inverted Witness
#Destiny2

Twitter · Nov 5, 2022, 11:25 PM

this is peak

[spiral crane]

And idk why he keeps doing that broken glass thing

It’s odd

[jagged badge]

It, not he

[ember storm]

breaking through the fabric of space and time

[spiral crane]

Mb

[exotic cloak]

Is them

[ember storm]

it’s cooler than just vague whispers

[exotic cloak]

Or it

[ember storm]

and also physically threatening

[spiral crane]

Them probably

Because it’s like a whole race

[ember storm]

it just Calus and made him bleed without any content at all