That is the easiest answer and the one the story tells the average player
#📚lore-discussion
gentle geyser
ember storm
the traveler didn’t make it happen
gentle geyser
Im wording it in a simplified manner
ember storm
the implication is it’s a mixture of actual connection and personal belief
for over a thousand years, ghosts were under the impression they were created solely because the traveler favored humanity
but not only have we learned that just isn’t the case as of recently, all the hive ghosts were unable to find a pull in anyone
this leaves them dejected and willing to cling to whatever makes them feel worth anything, which Savathun takes advantage of
we also know that every risen has a signature of light unique to them in particular
so a ghost revives the signature that its closest to
gentle geyser
Honestly this is an instance of the lore where it shouldve been explained in the dlc because its just kinda damping my opinion on witch queen
ember storm
so, combine over a millennia of disparity, a handcrafted realm built from light, and extra “you will die unless you cooperate” motivation
gentle geyser
Its stupid that this lore isn’t explained in the dlc
ember storm
boom, hive lightbearwrs
ember storm
Its stupid that this lore isn’t explained in the dlc
everything I’m saying is from lore released before or during WQ
and honestly I don’t see a part where an in depth explanation to the exact process of hive rezzing would fit into the story
gentle geyser
That doesn’t change the fact that 80% of players will never hear this lore
ember storm
which matters how?
the campaigns explain enough so people have a baseline understanding
gentle geyser
Its stupid because its completely opposite of what gets told to the player
ember storm
I.e. hive ghosts are defectors
the casual player doesn’t need to know the exact specific rules, only that it happens
if they want to learn, they can, on their own time
gentle geyser
the casual player doesn’t need to know the exact specific rules, only that it ha...
Then why explain it to the player twice
ember storm
but bungie isn’t bloating their narratives with in depth explanations just to satiate a few nerds like mael
ember storm
Then why explain it to the player twice
what are you referring to exactly
gentle geyser
A part of the dlc is literally just the investigation of how they got the light and essentially what is told to the player through visual storytelling is just not accurate
That dampens the story because the player is being given conflicting information that shouldn’t be confusing
ember storm
Are you talking about the Savathun memory?
that’s
literally a thing Savathun designed to be as confusing and skewed as possible
she knew fully well we’d be watching
it’s literally intentional misinformation meant to confuse us and cause infighting, which she succeeds in
the vanguard becomes thoroughly shook at the idea of the traveler condoning the lucent hive
gentle geyser
literally a thing Savathun designed to be as confusing and skewed as possible
This once again, is a shit cop out answer
ember storm
it’s not a cop out
she’s literally the hive god of deceit and lies
the whole campaign is her literally watching us scrambling for answers
she lets it happen because the answers are in the form of memories she needs to see again
of course she’d control what information comes out of it
how is this at all surprising
dim minnow
and the worm familiar was what ultimately helped us succeed
gentle geyser
You do realize that none of that justifies giving the player, conflicting information, on the literal last act of the dlc, when we are supposed to know the information
ember storm
you’re acting like each dlc is meant to be a shut end narrative
literally none of them are
gentle geyser
What that really just says is the player gets lied to and they have to go look at lore to know the actual truth
Which is dogshit
ember storm
the point of WQ was to properly introduce the witness
not have a simple narrative wrapped up in a neat bow
it answered some things and brought up other new ones
dim minnow
What that really just says is the player gets lied to and they have to go look a...
the twist here is that the lore we got, Mars Missives, is also full of misleading info
gentle geyser
I understand having information that’s intentionally false, I don’t understand having information given from a dlc that’s supposed to be for the public average player that only knows surface level lore to be misleading
ember storm
again
it doesn’t ultimately matter
the cutscene immediately after the misinformation has the main characters come to the basic conclusion of “it doesn’t matter what the big speechless god decides, we have each other and that’s enough”
gentle geyser
It doesn’t matter because they don’t know they are being lied to
ember storm
the fact of whether or not it was the traveler’s intention was not specifically important
and also basic context clues of Savathun having to kidnap the traveler to enact her plans makes it basically immediately resolved
gentle geyser
the fact of whether or not it was the traveler’s intention was not specifically ...
It is important because the game fucking makes that the point of two cutscenes
Back to back cutscenes too
ember storm
the main conclusion of the cutscene was just the existence of hive ghosts in general
gentle geyser
Thats shit storytelling
ember storm
not even about the traveler’s direct involvement
gentle geyser
Thats not even correct
ember storm
without any tricks or lies, Savathun was able to genuinely recruit a ghost (Inmaru) who was 100% on board for all her schemes
that is conclusive and important
gentle geyser
Stop using lore to defend a shit story deception
unique socket
gentle geyser
It lies to the player who paid for a campaign
Thats not even a fault of lore thats a fault of the writers
dim minnow
It lies to the player who paid for a campaign
it better, I don't pay Savathun by the hour for nothing
dim minnow
because the game is already pretty far into its story
fresh zephyr
I forgot, is saint 14 gay
gentle geyser
Yes
dim minnow
I forgot, is saint 14 gay
yes, with osiris
just like how you, the player, are with Nimbus
empty fern
Oh my
pseudo karma
Are we friends with the pyramids yet
empty fern
Are we friends with the pyramids yet
No that Europa one was just a one time thing
dim minnow
Are we friends with the pyramids yet
we never were and never will be
Pyramids are controlled by the Witness whose main goal is to make us suffer while its secondary goal is to reshape the universe into what it deems to be the Final Shape
dim minnow
Pyramids are controlled by the Witness whose main goal is to make us suffer whil...
technically, it's the other way around, but the Witness let its hatred for the Traveler get in the way to the point it activlely hinders its actual main goal of bringing forth the Final Shape
chrome fog
That doesn’t change the fact that 80% of players will never hear this lore
In fairness a good chunk of those players will willfully ignore lore presented to them in favor of their own imposed fantasy ie Cayde lovers and legit FWC members irl; Not only do we have transcripts and probably scans of all available pieces of lore physical, digital, or otherwise, but specifically in this aspect of exploring the ways in which resurrection operates was an explicit topic being explored in the Witch Queen CE notes. As for it differing from what was said before,
Yes, of course it is.
Because damn gamers don’t wanna listen to the part where we are the Traveler’s last choice after a great many others before and want to focus on HUMANITY GOT LITE ALIENS GO DIE THEMSELVES; it is purposefully going against what has been said before because we are learning new information that is revealing we have had a misconception about resurrection all this time
chrome fog
Stop using lore to defend a shit story deception
“Stop presenting the story to explain why the story is the way it is”
chrome fog
why do they keep shoehorning lore in every scene
It’s like one major focuses of Bungie’s games is the lore wow
blazing wasp
Halo, marathon, all games with intentionally packed lore
Less so with halo and even less with marathon, but still very present
ebon prawn
It’s like one major focuses of Bungie’s games is the lore wow
did you not read the sentence above
trim grotto
Destiny's ten years old. It has a big universe, and Bungie enjoy writing larger universes. It has a lot of lore built up over a long time.
With how far back the story can stretch, what you may consider to be "shoehorning in lore" may also be a callback to older content. Hard to tell without context.
chrome fog
It’s not a stretch to assume what is being presented to you at the forefront is possible important to the game
next bobcat
In fairness a good chunk of those players will willfully ignore lore presented t...
ressurection ? what about it?
next bobcat
Destiny's ten years old. It has a big universe, and Bungie enjoy writing larger ...
as a large world creator/writer myself i can confirm it is very fun and interesting to make a huge complicated web of weird lore stuff and spend way too long on incredibly specific and minute details
exotic cloak
Wait how the hell Eris turned Oryx into a gun
jagged badge
It’s not literally him as gun though
blazing wasp
did you not read the sentence above
Well in their defence its fair to assume you're at least somewhat familiar with one of the most popular IPs to date
Halo, that is, not destiny of course
exotic cloak
She put a piece of his heart into Touch of Malice.
Basically what Drifter did Malfeasance years after, well that was the entire heart
exotic cloak
It’s not literally him as gun though
Is funnier this way
warped tree
why do they keep shoehorning lore in every scene
Like wym
Cuz on one hand there's the game having like 10 years of story built up
And on the other, newer players can't really experience it since they removed it cuz the game is big
exotic cloak
Is a problem they created themselves but believe you are not really losing anything
We are now in the light and darkness saga and you can understand it with the current DLCs and if you don't have them you have the timeline missions
warped tree
Would have not been possible to have like a destiny 2 legacy install and then a destiny 2 current install
Like yk how on some games like terraria u can go back to another update
Nvm
exotic cloak
The thing is, Destiny is a server
You don't download DLCs, you unlock them
And pretty much you can lock them again lol
warped tree
Yeah tru
exotic cloak
If Destiny worked like other games having a single mode and then online mode everything would be better but I don't know and I'm not really interested in the reasons behind game being a permanent server
warped tree
Yeah I don't blame you
Is there a lot of other lore stuff unrelated to Final Shape and the episodes that still need to be wrapped up
jagged badge
Basically what Drifter did Malfeasance years after, well that was the entire hea...
Huh?
ember storm
malfeasance is made using the heart of an ascendant chimera
it’s at the start of the quest
the rest is just drifter having you do busywork to get on his good side
wheat flower
just like how you, the player, are with Nimbus
wait the player is dating nimbus?
wheat flower
No but why not
mainly vause the charge is cringw
imagien you'rw on a date and he just throws in a wwe refrence
exotic cloak
They
exotic cloak
And, yeah but bro is still good company
We just need to convince them to don't do jokes
exotic cloak
malfeasance is made using the heart of an ascendant chimera
Is a shame we don't see actual cinematics of how that happens or how Malfeasance is made
ember storm
do you want an iron man cave scene for everything or something?
exotic cloak
I imagine the guardian standing in front the fallen taken and them just taking the heart from it
exotic cloak
do you want an iron man cave scene for everything or something?
Not but
ember storm
we kill a chimera, it collapses in on itself and throws up its insides
that’s just what happens
exotic cloak
Oh
ember storm
we just so happen to find an intact heart
exotic cloak
ember storm
taken generally aren’t supposed to leave corpses behind
but it is funny when they just ragdoll
exotic cloak
True
empty fern
but it is funny when they just ragdoll
Taken shenanigans
ember storm
strongest warpriest fanboy vs the weakest balvog enjoyer
empty fern
golden wolf
say, could anyone tell me what this logo on the wing is tied to? it's familiar to me
golden wolf
pretty sure its related to a faction of some sort, I just forget where
golden wolf
I'm digging around to see where I can find it as well
golden wolf
I'm at a loss, I feel like I've seen it on a weapon at some point or as a perk icon? idk
dusty jolt
Was d1 also about light n dark or just d2
golden wolf
Was d1 also about light n dark or just d2
destiny as a whole has been the light and dark saga
dusty jolt
So d3 (if it exists) will not be right if we "kill" the big eyeballs dude
empty fern
So d3 (if it exists) will not be right if we "kill" the big eyeballs dude
Oh boy
golden wolf
So d3 (if it exists) will not be right if we "kill" the big eyeballs dude
we dunno whats going to happen after this saga ends
dusty jolt
we dunno whats going to happen after this saga ends
I thought the showcase explained that (I don't listen well so)
empty fern
?
We are suppose to kill the witness in final shape, which is the end of light and dark part of destiny
Afterward we don’t know what’ll happen
golden wolf
all we know is that the final shape is going to be the end of the light and dark saga, what happens after is a mystery atm
dusty jolt
We should keep the taken as pets 👍
empty fern
golden wolf
we technically had the right to ascend the throne as taken king iirc?
we just didn't and from memory xivu wasn't very happy about that?
shadow crypt
What are “Throne Worlds” exactly?
dusty jolt
Naw we perfer to farm his dead corps lol
empty fern
we technically had the right to ascend the throne as taken king iirc?
Don’t think we have any ascendant anymore, lost it in d1 i think?
ember storm
Don’t think we have any ascendant anymore, lost it in d1 i think?
we still regularly move through ruptures
empty fern
Oh those count?
ember storm
they’re literally the barrier of entry for the ascendant plane
golden wolf
What are “Throne Worlds” exactly?
basically pocket planes formed by powerful entities like oryx and I think Mara?
and things with throne worlds have to be killed in their throne worlds to actually die die? I forget since the rules are kinda weird?
ember storm
in the most literal sense
golden wolf
I forget, but I'm pretty sure Mara Sov has a throne world of her own
shadow crypt
Is Mara’s throne world the dreaming city?
jagged badge
basically pocket planes formed by powerful entities like oryx and I think Mara?
...
The rules aren’t really weird at all
ember storm
yeah but she made hers with shenanigans
shadow crypt
Or the ascendent plane
jagged badge
Is Mara’s throne world the dreaming city?
No
ember storm
Is Mara’s throne world the dreaming city?
no
jagged badge
Her Throne is Eleusinia
shadow crypt
Ohh
ember storm
dreaming city is just in a fancy air bubble in the middle of space
golden wolf
yea, the taken king raid is us going into oryx's throne world and killing him in there iirc
ember storm
yea, the taken king raid is us going into oryx's throne world and killing him in...
the entire Dreadnaught is his throne world
golden wolf
yea
ember storm
he inverted it and fused it with material reality
golden wolf
thats some A Grade Fuckery right there
ember storm
it’s why he decides to run away in the campaign, that would’ve been his full death
golden wolf
and I'm pretty sure the super weapon he used to basically masacre the awoken fleet was him doing smth with his throne world to cause that massive burst? or was that just him doing taken stuff?
ember storm
probably part of his oversoul but it doesn’t really matter
golden wolf
doesn't matter cause he dead dead
ember storm
thanks to Mara sacrificing most of the entire awoken fleet without their knowledge (very cool), Oryx took out his own fleet with them and was left dead in the water
he also took his time doing some trolling to the dreaming city, so we were open to board the Dreadnaught
ember storm
his corpse flies out
empty fern
What’s with Oryx in the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon?
He deading
ember storm
Dreadnaught is near Saturn
Titan is a moon of Saturn
there’s something called gravity
jagged badge
Tbf it’s pretty funky that he falls all this distance through space towards a different celestial body than the one he was orbiting
No need to be condescending about it
shadow crypt
And what’s his story in the dungeon?
golden wolf
yea, its little fucky but it can be handwaved as the moon just came by and he crashed onto it instead of going planetfall into saturn instead
ember storm
something something black fleet did some trolling
ember storm
And what’s his story in the dungeon?
he’s dead
shadow crypt
Does he try to get rezzed
ember storm
he has no story
ember storm
Does he try to get rezzed
he would hate it
it’s against everything sword logic dictates
the lucent hive tried to resurrect him for their own means
empty fern
it’s against everything sword logic dictates
BUT
golden wolf
And what’s his story in the dungeon?
they were trying to rez him as a lucent hive
which fun fact, oryx would not have been happy about if he got his memories back so we stop his revival and kill the one trying to rez him
ember storm
https://tenor.com/view/oryx-taking-himself-destiny-oryx-taken-king-gif-17498021
every hive ever does this
it’s not special
jagged badge
the lucent hive tried to resurrect him for their own means
Potentially Savathûn wanted him for the purpose that Crow is now serving right?
empty fern
Hmph
golden wolf
https://tenor.com/view/oryx-taking-himself-destiny-oryx-taken-king-gif-17498021
he literally hit himself with his own power there, turned himself taken, he in control of the taken, he in control of himself, is ez powa boost 4 free
ember storm
he literally hit himself with his own power there, turned himself taken, he in c...
he didn’t turn taken
the power to take and becoming taken are two things
The witness is what makes things taken
oryx just pulled himself away physically
he left
golden wolf
so its more "Oh no, the Guardians are here and they have guns... Peace losers"?
ember storm
every time he took an army he was sending them out to the witness and twiddling his thumbs until they were sent back as taken
ember storm
so its more "Oh no, the Guardians are here and they have guns... Peace losers"?
more like “gonna fight the light, damn light got hands”
he just pulled himself together and stopped playing with his food
the whole campaign he’s taunting us about how we’re not worth it
golden wolf
tho I'm pretty sure when Oryx killed whatever that worm gods name was he claimed the ability to take, that was a whole thing wasn't it?
jagged badge
tho I'm pretty sure when Oryx killed whatever that worm gods name was he claimed...
Killing Akka gave him strength enough to commune with the Deep. From this communion he inscribed the Tablets of Ruin which taught him how to Take
empty fern
Cwota
ember storm
he was absolutely reveling in the fact he’d kill his son’s killer
so he was unfocused
and got gamer’d
golden wolf
Cwota
"Killed ya kids, killed ya pet, what you got big man?"
guardians merc'd his entire bloodline damn
ember storm
I like how golgoroth is effectively the family dog
ember storm
guardians merc'd his entire bloodline damn
Osiris is responsible for actually finishing it off
golden wolf
._.
ember storm
the whole thing with him killing the hidden swarm on the moon and losing Sagira
he killed all of Crota’s daughters
bloodline destroyed
golden wolf
why is osiris? apart from his whole knowledge of the infinite forest and vex I guess, whats his purpose in the narrative?
ember storm
I mean it was sort of the whole thing with season of the hunt and BL ce lore
golden wolf
osiris at this point is just the token grumpy old man... he literally ignored the existence of his most devoted follower (rip brother vance idk if you still alive) and he kept getting mad in lightfall like damn
ember storm
this was four years ago
jagged badge
osiris at this point is just the token grumpy old man... he literally ignored th...
Osiris never cared for the cult that formed around him at all
Why should he care about Vance?
He didn’t organise it or anything
ember storm
Osiris had a very short grumpy arc which was formed in the wake of literally being worn as a meat suit by a hive god and being unable to do anything watching her trample all over his personal life
then he was left in a coma for over a year
if anyone has a right to be a bit grumpy it would be him, and again that arc is over
he’s living peacefully with Saint right now with no field work
jagged badge
People really overplay the grumpy Osiris thing considering during/post-Lightfall he’s been pretty amiable with people
ember storm
majority of the playerbase sees the whole narrative as about half an hour in the middle
nobody ever even mentions Caiatl unless they’re dunking on nimbus
jagged badge
I think his bond with Nimbus shows this. Osiris is shown to be patient with and affectionate of Nimbus in the Veil Contaiment logs
golden wolf
Caiatl is cool, I like her
empty fern
Wonder how much of the family was here
empty fern
Aw
ember storm
it’s not a memorial ceremony
it’s a ritual and the deathsingers are responsible for it
extended family ain’t showing up for it
empty fern
What did death singers do again?
golden wolf
they sang the bad song
fast tapir
erm sing death 
ember storm
sing and you die
empty fern
Damn
golden wolf
yea, thats the gist of it
ember storm
toland was a SoundCloud backer
ember storm
no
golden wolf
I keep forgetting Toland is there, but every time I see a little taken dot his name comes to mind...
empty fern
Damn
ember storm
we kill them in KF
empty fern
we kill them in KF
No the smaller ones
ember storm
the pyramid heads are daughters of oryx
empty fern
F
golden wolf
say, could anyone tell me what this logo on the wing is tied to? it's familiar t...
did we ever get any hints on this out of curiousity?
empty fern
did we ever get any hints on this out of curiousity?
Gotta be a titan faction, that’s all i know
golden wolf
battlesong > deathsong
for some reason
ember storm
oh boy I sure am glad it’s time to grind nf
WRONG, HYMN OF WAR
ember storm
battlesong > deathsong
for some reason
I mean it’s basic spells
and strategy
the big huge targets are doing a thing that just directly kills you
the smaller runts are doing something that makes everything around them better at their jobs
golden wolf
oh boy I sure am glad it’s time to grind nf
WRONG, HYMN OF WAR
"Oh boi, can't wait to use my ability focused build!"
WRONG acolyte under the totem
empty fern
Wonder if we’ll see more totem usage
ember storm
I don’t
it’s her only motif
I hope we see the more eldritch wrathborn
make them better than spicy green cloud
has anyone actually tested the enemy ai to see if wrathborn shoot hive
I’ve always been curious
empty fern
Taken shenanigans
Wonder why hive keep 3 eyes but taken have 1
empty fern
has anyone actually tested the enemy ai to see if wrathborn shoot hive
Don’t think they do, (but then again I haven’t tested)
ember storm
Wonder why hive keep 3 eyes but taken have 1
because they’re not eyes
and oryx is never taken
that’s an echo
golden wolf
Gotta be a titan faction, that’s all i know
trying to find the logos for orders in destiny is hard man
empty fern
that’s an echo
Oh yea
empty fern
trying to find the logos for orders in destiny is hard man
Oh lemme try
golden wolf
I can find order names, but logos is hard
ember storm
also from a character design standpoint it’s because majority of their body is weird and dark
they need big giant “shoot me here” signs
this is just a thing oryx did because he’s goated like that
not taken
golden wolf
gamers just need an obvious "attention here" sign in games
empty fern
I can find order names, but logos is hard
Couldn’t find it but found this https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/149755999?page=0&sort=0&showBanned=0&path=1
golden wolf
so many people I know get confused when they shoot incendior backpacks and die from the resulting explosion
L E A R N
golden wolf
Couldn’t find it but found this https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/149755999?...
yea thats about the list I found
ember storm
anyway kind of hard to see but they’re not eyes
it’s just some thing in front of the face
empty fern
A veil
ember storm
I’m hungry
golden wolf
yup
hmmm... reading the lore tab on revision because I'm bored rn... am I right in assuming that the symbol on the magazine indicates that the gun is somewhat made using darkness stuffs? and there are a few names I'm not recognising either HHI, RAS Interference (I assume rasputin doing some trolling?) and SKYSHOCK protocol?
empty fern
Skyshock sounds familiar
golden wolf
same, a lot of things to do with rasputin protocols are familiar in my mind because I love me some warmind stuff
golden wolf
was gonna say, the lore tab makes it sound like a retaliation thing
empty fern
hmmm... reading the lore tab on revision because I'm bored rn... am I right in a...
What symbol?
Oh that? Don’t think it’s related to vow
golden wolf
What symbol?
on the magazine
rich veldt
isnt skyshock a defence protocol?
empty fern
isnt skyshock a defence protocol?
Probably?
golden wolf
looks kinda similar to the things we see in lightfall but idk
rich veldt
on the magazine
give me 2 minutes to search a server
golden wolf
aight
empty fern
give me 2 minutes to search a server
Is it the crypt?
chrome fog
ressurection ? what about it?
Ressurection, as in First Rez
golden wolf
the lore tab does speak of the K1 artifact
rich veldt
a senior narative designer confirmed its the golden age hakke symbol
empty fern
Kek
rich veldt
was said in the ishtar server a while back
golden wolf
Sound like skyshock is just an extreme level of, danger? Chaos?
"It's a SKYSHOCK event, ma'am. Uh, that's a hostile extrasolar arrival."
empty fern
Underwhelming
rich veldt
Underwhelming
yeah no one was gonna get it
golden wolf
a senior narative designer confirmed its the golden age hakke symbol
that makes sense given hakke worked on the gun
empty fern
yeah no one was gonna get it
We got another quest for you
The ship with the mammal symbol from earlier
rich veldt
The ship with the mammal symbol from earlier
which one?
golden wolf
say, could anyone tell me what this logo on the wing is tied to? it's familiar t...
the symbol in question
empty fern
That one
rich veldt
(i only knew the r0 one as i remember it being discussed in the cryptarchy
golden wolf
I think I managed to get some idea as to what the SKYSHOCK thing is about, seems to be related to things entering our solar system and is a whole classification of events with a specific set of things set aside to deal with them from what I can tell
sounds dangerous
that just leave HHI and RAS Interference
chrome fog
So d3 (if it exists) will not be right if we "kill" the big eyeballs dude
There is very little likelihood there will be a D3 as Bungie seems fully dedicated to maintaining D2 as live service, seemingly opting to produce Episodes instead of continuing on the Expansion style of content release (unless showcase says otherwise, I haven’t watched them yet)
golden wolf
There is very little likelihood there will be a D3 as Bungie seems fully dedicat...
yea, looks like seasons are out and episodes are the new norm
chrome fog
we technically had the right to ascend the throne as taken king iirc?
Strictly speaking, technically, but it was a similar situation as with Savathun’s tithe where the Ascendent Power we had wasn’t accessible to us and stuck to our being like bad juju, to which Mara asked if she could have it (definitely need to fact check this because this is part of the area of knowledge where I don’t know what Mara is doing)
empty fern
Strictly speaking, *technically*, but it was a similar situation as with Savathu...
You
empty fern
Pretty pwease pls find uhhhh
golden wolf
the hunt for the symbol continues it seems
empty fern
say, could anyone tell me what this logo on the wing is tied to? it's familiar t...
Which faction
empty fern
the hunt for the symbol continues it seems
I’m bored so yea
I say it’s titan faction, but forgot which one
chrome fog
Naw we perfer to farm his dead corps lol
Also idk if this is referring to Ghost, but otherwise no, we do not repeat raids like in the game in order to get more weapons, there’s very little overall Strikes, Raids, or Dungeons we have repeated multiple times canonically
golden wolf
lmao
chrome fog
he killed all of Crota’s daughters
HAHAHHAHAHAAHA FAMILY PITBULL CHEWS UP THE TODDLERS
rich veldt
say, could anyone tell me what this logo on the wing is tied to? it's familiar t...
i cant find anything but @trim grotto might be of better help
golden wolf
lets see if they respond first
golden wolf
I should probs be asleep lmao, its 2am
empty fern
Both marl and dova
chrome fog
That was an hour ago
I just woke up and I’m catching up
rich veldt
it was maels doc drive i was just speedchecking afterall
empty fern
I just woke up and I’m catching up
Muh uh
chrome fog
I woke up late, 10:45
golden wolf
aight, imma go sleep now, gimme a ping if we get anything on the symbol
feel free to dm me the info as well, I don't mind at all
dusty jolt
Also idk if this is referring to Ghost, but otherwise no, we do not repeat raids...
I made it as a joke but ok
chrome fog
aight, imma go sleep now, gimme a ping if we get anything on the symbol
feel fre...
Bringing it to the Ishtar Collective rn, hopefully they have something; rest well
spiral crane
does anyone have a good lore video recapping previous events
like everything pre beyond light
chrome fog
And also missing some pieces that Beyond Light and the rest of the expansions filled in
But it’s a fine starting point
spiral crane
im only like 18 minutes in and this is already amazing
i never thought a scfi looter shooter would have such great lore holy shit
graceful tide
Is there any lore difference between the normal vex and the vex found in other places that are covered in moss?
chrome fog
Somewhat? There are different Vex Collectives, of which the Sol Divisive are the most prominent, with the distinction between each other aside their appearance being their function
spiral crane
https://youtu.be/9mbDXvDNqTU?si=9VwIJQ9XyXLOB6F-
holy shit the hive are insane
their whole culture revolves around genocide for the sake of feeling more powerful
shadow crypt
Sword Logic 👀
spiral crane
well consider me invested in witch queen now
spiral crane
Sword Logic 👀
im assuming the worm gods adopted that from the witness
and they passed it down
to the hive
chrome fog
Mael!
spiral crane
whos Mael
trim grotto
im assuming the worm gods adopted that from the witness
That's the simplified version
We know the Proto-Worms became the Worm Gods after an encounter with Darkness, and it's reasonable to assume that was the Witness - but we don't know for sure.
spiral crane
That's the simplified version
We know the Proto-Worms became the Worm Gods after...
what are the proto worms
trim grotto
The Worm Gods before they were the Worm Gods
spiral crane
ok
trim grotto
Like Ahsa
spiral crane
when did they meet the witness
chrome fog
their whole culture revolves around genocide for the sake of feeling more powerf...
It’s more than that; with their symbiosis with their Worms, they are able to actually accrue Ascendent Energy - paracausal power - through their Survival of the Strongest philosophy
spiral crane
also how old is the creation if the witness compared to the creation of the ascendent hive
trim grotto
when did they meet the witness
Technically, they haven't. Not that we know of. They did, however, meet Rhulk, who delved deep into the oceans of Fundament, made a deal with Xita, the Worm Mother, and stole her for his own.
spiral crane
It’s more than that; with their symbiosis with their Worms, they are able to act...
so they're granted power through that philosphy and thats why they believe it is the fundemental way the world works
trim grotto
also how old is the creation if the witness compared to the creation of the asce...
We don't have hard dates. However, dating of a statue aboard the Dreadnaught suggests the statue alone was older than Earth - billions of years old.
Add onto that the age of the Hive before the Dreadnaught, and the time before the Hive were even raised up by Darkness...
Very old.
spiral crane
We don't have hard dates. However, dating of a statue aboard the Dreadnaught sug...
so the witness is incredibley more ancient than the hive
trim grotto
To an indefinite degree, yes. And it had already claimed Rhulk as its Disciple by then.
spiral crane
who is rhulk
trim grotto
The First Disciple of the Witness. You may hear about him after the WQ campaign, particularly if you're interested in Raiding.
spiral crane
The First Disciple of the Witness. You may hear about him after the WQ campaign,...
is he still alive
trim grotto
Well, he...
spiral crane
yeah?
trim grotto
By your timeline, yes. By the current actual time, no.
spiral crane
what
trim grotto
He's the boss of the Vow of the Disciple Raid.
spiral crane
what do you mean by my timeline
trim grotto
If you haven't finished WQ, then chronologically, he'd be alive at that time.
spiral crane
oh ok
trim grotto
The raid takes place afterwards.
spiral crane
so he dies after witch queen and before light fall
trim grotto
Correct
trim grotto
It was pretty wild.
spiral crane
during the early days of the hive, like during the book of sorrow, were the taken and hive on the same side?
the video makes it sound that way
trim grotto
Aurash, who took the Worm Parasite and became Auryx, later slew Akka and learned to commune with the Deep. That is, Darkness, likely the Witness. He learned to Take, and became Oryx, the Taken King.
So, yes. At least, they were on Oryx's side.
spiral crane
Aurash, who took the Worm Parasite and became Auryx, later slew Akka and learned...
did he command taken and hive
trim grotto
He commanded most Taken and his own Hive Brood.
spiral crane
So, yes. At least, they were on Oryx's side.
what about after his death(im assuming he's dead because theres a raid called kings fall with his face on it)
trim grotto
Indeed so
After his death, the Taken were largely left aimless, wandering. Their nature means they have no will of their own, and so they began to seek out other beings of great willpower. Savathûn commanded a number of of from the shadows for quite a few years, likely with aid from Quria, a Taken Vex who Oryx gifted to her many years ago.
spiral crane
i see
was the witnesses goal with recruiting the hive to force the sword logic on the world
jagged badge
I don’t think the Witness specifically cares about the Sword Logic, but it is useful to have a devoted species of killers to hand
spiral crane
I don’t think the Witness specifically cares about the Sword Logic, but it is us...
what does he care about
his whole point is meaning
or the search for it
jagged badge
what does he care about
It wants to bring about the Final Shape
spiral crane
It wants to bring about the Final Shape
and is that why it pursues the traveler?
what is the final shape?
jagged badge
It
And yes, the Witness needed the Traveler
You’re playing through stuff chronologically right?
spiral crane
to the best of my abilty
i started with beyond light
now im doing witch queen
im studying up on lore to better understand wtf is going on
jagged badge
And yes, the Witness needed the Traveler
I won’t say much more then, for that is getting into Lightfall stuff
trim grotto
what is the final shape?
The Final Shape is a concept, one that changes depending on the being or beings that attempt to bring it about.
It's an end state. Usually referring to the universe itself.
For the Hive, it is the culmination of the Sword Logic. Once everything that can die is killed, the universe will be sharp and strong.
For the Vex, it is Convergence, where everything is machinoformed, all is simulated, everything is Vex.
For the Witness, it is...
spiral crane
The Final Shape is a concept, one that changes depending on the being or beings ...
we dont know im guessing
for the witness
trim grotto
Sorry I'm finding a quote for you but mobile is awful to navigate with
spiral crane
ur good
trim grotto
Immaru: The final shape, the way we think about it? It's the winner, the one who's so smart or strong that they beat everybody else. The final shape may not be the most interesting or best looking or whatever, but it's the one who makes it to the finish line, again and again. It's the best at what it does. The Witness' final shape isn't like that. It's just... flat. It's static. It's... a forced ending, like winning a game by turning it off. Forever. Ugh, gives me the heebie-jeebies.
shadow crypt
Is that Xivu’s ghost?
spiral crane
```Immaru: The final shape, the way we think about it? It's the winner, the one ...
so its gonna destory the universe to find meaning?
trim grotto
Is that Xivu’s ghost?
Savathûn's. Xivu doesn't have one.
trim grotto
so its gonna destory the universe to find meaning?
Something like that.
spiral crane
Savathûn's. Xivu doesn't have one.
wait she gets a ghost
spiral crane
Something like that.
intresting
trim grotto
wait she gets a ghost
_>
No comment
spiral crane
so why did the sword logic get given to the hive
and not the witnesses ideals
wouldnt that be more useful
for the witness
trim grotto
It wasn't really given to them.
The Worm Parasites that they have consume the ontological concept of death and that, in turn, makes the Hive host stronger. This process is parallel, yet separate, to Sword Logic.
Sword Logic as a pseudo religious concept is the Hive's interpretation of their purpose in life.
spiral crane
The Worm Parasites that they have consume the ontological concept of death and t...
so the hive interpreted it that way so it is how they live their life
trim grotto
In a way, the Hive's unwavering zealotry is why they're failures to the Witness. They cannot see their own Final Shape because once there is nothing left to kill, their Worm Parasites will starve and consume their own hosts.
spiral crane
In a way, the Hive's unwavering zealotry is why they're failures to the Witness....
their logic does seem flawed inherentley
if the strong keep killing everything weaker then there will be only one strong left
and then he will starve
trim grotto
Pretty much!
Savathûn realised this, and had been trying to rid herself of her Worm for years.
spiral crane
Savathûn realised this, and had been trying to rid herself of her Worm for years...
at least she eventully changed her ways
so lore wise are the hive stronger than the other factions
trim grotto
She redefined what the Worm required from death to lies and trickery, she cursed the Dreaming City to fuel this trick with an infinite torus of death, and eventually, she made a deal with Queen Mara Sov of the Awoken to preform an exorcism of the Worm.
That event was the direct prequel to Witch Queen.
trim grotto
so lore wise are the hive stronger than the other factions
In many ways, yes.
Not definitively, but yes.
spiral crane
do other factiosn desire the finalshape
or just the witness
does only the witness know of its existance
trim grotto
Vex have their variation of it. Convergence.
The Taken desire whatever their commander desires.
Otherwise, no.
The concept itself has become publicly known by now though
spiral crane
Vex have their variation of it. Convergence.
The Taken desire whatever their com...
im guessing the fallen want the travler back or something
and idk what the cabal want
trim grotto
im guessing the fallen want the travler back or something
They used to. For centuries, even. Now, not so much. House Light live peacefully with us in the City. House Salvation are so scorned that they wish to destroy it. House Dusk can't even really be called a House and are just scavengers trying to survive.
spiral crane
what do the cabal want
trim grotto
Depends on who you mean.
Caiatl's Cabal, the Cabal Ascendancy, wish to destroy Xivu Arath. Savathûn created a series of events that lead to Xivu Arath invading and destroying Torobatl, their homeworld.
This in turn lead to the collapse of much of their empire.
The Shadow Legion work for the Witness. I'm not entirely sure if they have their own wills anymore. They're like empty husks.
The Red Legion doesn't truly exist anymore, thoroughly dismantled and repeatedly shattered by Guardian efforts after the Red War.
Those who still bear their armour or symbols are like House Dusk, now. Renegades, survivors. Branded as traitors to the Cabal Ascendancy. Outcasts.
trim grotto
There used to be even more. Other Cabal Legions, other Fallen Houses. Like House Devils, or Kings, or Winter.
trim grotto
EDZ and most other locations is pretty much entirely Red Legion remnants. Neptune is Shadow Legion.
spiral crane
EDZ and most other locations is pretty much entirely Red Legion remnants. Neptun...
so the cabal as a faction are gone
for the most part
trim grotto
The opening to the WQ campaign has Cabal Ascendancy because we are stupid and didn't open a darned coms channel
spiral crane
the fact that all the content in destint takes places in differnt spots in the timeline is rlly confusing
spiral crane
The opening to the WQ campaign has Cabal Ascendancy because we are stupid and di...
why did we fight them arent we allies
trim grotto
so the cabal as a faction are gone
The Ascendancy is the core of that faction
Empreas Caiatl and the loyalists
trim grotto
why did we fight them arent we allies
At the time we merely had a ceasefire, a truce. It was a pretty stupid tactical mistake, and one that Caiatl ripped into us for. Fair enough.
trim grotto
the fact that all the content in destint takes places in differnt spots in the t...
The nature of trying to be live service and host old repayable content, haha
Alright I've got to get back to work
Ciao buddy
spiral crane
Alright I've got to get back to work
Ciao buddy
ciao
thanks for helping me understand all this
chrome fog
so they're granted power through that philosphy and thats why they believe it is...
Partially, it’s more so their philosophy synergizes well with the Worms’ ability to consume “death” (as the ceasing of one’s existence as well as any other figurative form of death) and turn it into paracausal energy, Ascendent Energy
spiral crane
Partially, it’s more so their philosophy synergizes well with the Worms’ ability...
was it by chance the worms found someone so suited
or planned by the witness
chrome fog
A little of both
The machinations by which the Hive became the way they are now from what they were before was largely due to the manipulations of the Witness;
It sent Rhulk to essentially beat up the Worm Gods into going along with its plan, the plan itself being
- Plant a worm familiar in the proto-hive’s royal court to feed their king misinformation and generate strife
- From the inevitable coil that arises from the senile and misinformed ruler’s reign, guide the three princesses to the Worm God’s prison within the Leviathan (no, not Calus’ prison barge turned luxury cruiser) and convince them to make a deal which will cement the symbiotic/parasitic relationship between worms and Hive
Coincidentally, because their planet was essentially a constant battleground of evolution from new species raining down on their home planet, the gaseous Fundament, the proto-Hive had already established a philosophy of survival of the strongest
trim grotto
Fun fact
They only lived for eight years on average, as Proto-Hive (before the Parasite Worms)
dim minnow
Fun fact
They only lived for eight years on average, as Proto-Hive (before the P...
thought it was 10
yeah, it was 10
MOTHERS. Mothers can fly! They live much longer than ten years. Mothers are extremely smart, and they guard their spawn. If you try to tamper with the eggs, they will eat you. Sathona wants to eat the jelly and become a mother when she turns four.
trim grotto
thought it was 10
Aurash lists 2 years as a quarter of their life
So it's between 8-10
dim minnow
10 is mentioned more however
trim grotto
True, but life doesn't have a hard expiry date. 8-10 is a reasonable stretch
But yes, "on average" assumes a harder set of numbers, so that was a bit of an overstatement on my part.
unique socket
So were the Krill and Hive the same species with just different names?
chrome fog
Yes, essentially
Krill was the term Byf arbitrarily used - and Bungie then adopted - so generally we describe Hive before their pact with the Worm Gods as proto-hive
They were much the same, except they weren’t magically augmented like they are now
trim grotto
It's basically just pre-worm and post-worm yeah
trim grotto
In this case, first is a rank, not first as in original. He's the first to revive a Lucent Hive, Savathûn.
All Ghosts were created at the same time, at once, at the end of the Collapse.
trim grotto
You're not the only one, it's a common misunderstanding
Particularly as Ghost says Immaru used to taunt "young" Ghosts
Just poorly worded
fast tapir
do we have an idea of how many ghosts were produced?
unique socket
You're not the only one, it's a common misunderstanding
Particularly as Ghost s...
Wasn't Ghost himself said that Immaru "bullied" the other ghosts? 😭
trim grotto
do we have an idea of how many ghosts were produced?
They cannot tell us, because of the variable player limit.
trim grotto
Wasn't Ghost himself said that Immaru "bullied" the other ghosts? 😭
Exactly what I was referencing
But the line incorrectly implies that Immaru was older than those Ghosts, which isn't how that worked
dim minnow
Exactly what I was referencing
But the line incorrectly implies that Immaru was...
the line could be reffering to a more mental form of youth
again, refer to Glint
vestal summit
I want to catch up with destiny lore and byf is my main go to guy for that stuff, but I don't have time to watch 41+ lore videos since season of the witch and over, any suggestions of specific videos I should watch or similar stuff?
trim grotto
the line could be reffering to a more mental form of youth
I think it just references that they were all young at the time
unique socket
I like to imagine young ghost in tiny size. 
shadow wyvern
I want to catch up with destiny lore and byf is my main go to guy for that stuff...
There are a couple of destiny lore start to finish vids that are like 3-4 hrs long
Byf has one
Is that enough time?
vestal summit
There are a couple of destiny lore start to finish vids that are like 3-4 hrs lo...
Well, I'm catched up with everything until light fall I think, and I don't remember byf doing any of those vids after that.
spiral crane
Are guardians immortal since they can always be revived by their ghosts
Or can that immortality be disrupted in some way
dim minnow
Or can that immortality be disrupted in some way
so long as a Guardian has their connection to the Light, we can live very long
spiral crane
so long as a Guardian has their connection to the Light, we can live very long
But we’re not immortal
dim minnow
guardians like Drifter, Zavala, Ikora, Shaxx, and Saladin have been around for centuries
dim minnow
No matter what
there are ways to bypass that
candid inletBOT
dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)
dim minnow
this is basically a list explaining how a Guardian can be killed
dim minnow
yes
spiral crane
We can be killed
dim minnow
permanently
spiral crane
Is that a rare occurance?
dim minnow
Is that a rare occurance?
let's see, happened to Osiris, Eris, Cayde, probably a lot of other Guardians in lore
vestal summit
Not really.
spiral crane
let's see, happened to Osiris, Eris, Cayde, probably a lot of other Guardians in...
Osiris?
Isn’t he sti alive
spiral crane
well yeas he's still ALive
But he’s no longer a guardian
dim minnow
I'm jsut listing down occurances of Guardians who lost their ghosts
spiral crane
Or at least no more light
vestal summit
Gameplay wise, Darkness zones subdue your light and can kill you.
dim minnow
Or at least no more light
which means he dies for good next time he dies
vestal summit
I think somewhere in the lore talked about it but i don't remember where.
dim minnow
I think somewhere in the lore talked about it but i don't remember where.
season of the Chosen weapon I think
spiral crane
how many guardians are there again?
dim minnow
don't remember which one
dim minnow
how many guardians are there again?
we don't have a concrete number
definitely less than infinite though
spiral crane
definitely less than infinite though
Do we have a whole ass army?
vestal summit
how many guardians are there again?
We only know that 99% of the time we are stretched thin.
unique socket
I'm jsut listing down occurances of Guardians who lost their ghosts
But what about Drifter?
spiral crane
We only know that 99% of the time we are stretched thin.
To be fair we are trying to control a whole solar system
vestal summit
Drifter still has his ghost.
dim minnow
But what about Drifter?
his Ghost is still around
though she is kinda mentally gone
can't talk
unique socket
But if i remember, i didn't see his ghost
spiral crane
So are humanity a significant threat power wise or no?
dim minnow
we never seen it
vestal summit
Do he have any info on how many guardians were killed by Crota?
dim minnow
Do he have any info on how many guardians were killed by Crota?
hundreds-thousands
vestal summit
Then our current number is bigger than that.
dim minnow
it is said that thousands died during the Great Disaster
spiral crane
So are humanity a significant threat power wise or no?
Because going just off gameplay we’re like unstoppable
dim minnow
a good chunk of those were probably Crota personally
vestal summit
Because going just off gameplay we’re like unstoppable
Not really, except the cabal all our enemies have ways to perma kill.
spiral crane
Not really, except the cabal all our enemies have ways to perma kill.
Even then a single guardian would still be a pretty decent threat
vestal summit
Even then a single guardian would still be a pretty decent threat
Yeah but so are our enemies.
Otherwise a colony of hive on the moon wouldn't have scarred the entirety of humanity for generations.
During the new light quest a single hive wizard was enough to massacre a squad of guardians. Lmao
trim grotto
Can't be bothered typing so here have this instead
I don't know if it'll embed right but we'll see
trim grotto
You're a gremlin
But anyway, Ghosts are our true weak spot. And unlike what Forsaken taught you, they are vulnerable.
fading karma
I'm nowhere near smart enough for lore so I'm asking here but why weren't there many like legendary titans or just other guardians?
chrome fog
There are quite a few notable guardians, including Titans, whom we know of
Saint and Shaxx for example, they are widely renowned for their vital assistance in the defense of the Last City - Shaxx led a group of Titans back into the fray of Six Fronts despite orders to retreat by Saladin, and then Saint is known for eradicating a great deal of Fallen during that same conflict and beyond, to the point that he is a feared legend by the Eliksni
spiral crane
Why did the witness distrust the traveler all the way back at the beginning
Why did the traveler leave them
chrome fog
There are a couple Iron Lords who were Titans, pretty sure Efrideet was one but I could just be assuming; again, the group Shaxx was with us also notable, and then Wei Ning
chrome fog
Why did the witness distrust the traveler all the way back at the beginning
They did not so much distrust the Traveler as much as they felt entitled to a definition for existence from the entity which had helped them uplift their civilization to the near peak of development
The Traveler left them once she realized they were going to exploit her to make it so all reality followed their perceived reason for existence
spiral crane
They did not so much distrust the Traveler as much as they felt entitled to a de...
There’s a line in the season of the deep cutscene that mentions that they saw the traveler as capable of great destruction
spiral crane
I didn’t understand what the point of including that was unless it meant they distrusted it from the on
spiral crane
can you help me out?
What
tranquil adder
need 1 for a custom to test
spiral crane
What does that mean
chrome fog
There’s a line in the season of the deep cutscene that mentions that they saw th...
Because they themselves created weapons that could cause great destruction using Light; what more so could the source of Light do
chrome fog
need to test some stuff and need 1 for custom
What does this even mean
tranquil adder
you the first person i saw
spiral crane
This is the lore chat
chrome fog
What the hell is a custom
spiral crane
Ask someone in general
tranquil adder
all i need you to do is stand still for like 5 mins
spiral crane
Where?
tranquil adder
ill paypal you like $10
tranquil adder
add me on steam
chrome fog
@heavy vortex
spiral crane
Because they themselves created weapons that could cause great destruction using...
So did they see potential in it that could be unlocked by the darkness
Or did they just try to make the final shape for the sake of meaning
tranquil adder
<@516552086205235230>
dude you are so cool bro
chrome fog
So did they see potential in it that could be unlocked by the darkness
No just. They could destroy planets using weapons they created with the Light, they sought Darkness after being met with silence from the Traveler in asking for the purpose of life
spiral crane
No just. They could destroy planets using weapons they created with the Light, t...
So the whole issue was meaning
What meaning do they want
Any meaning?
Or something specific
chrome fog
dude you are so cool bro
It doesn’t take much brain power to read channel descriptions and read rules
Like this is very obviously not a channel to go begging for someone to join your game, there are even lfg channels in this server if you can’t get someone from #✨destiny-discussion to join up on you. Please read where the resources you want are before barging into channels and asking random people to join your game
chrome fog
What meaning do they want
So you know how people want to know the meaning of life? That’s the issue that the Witness species ran into once they literally peaked the development of their civilization; they assumed that the entity which blessed them would have answers, but were disheartened when they did not receive any response to their existential question
tranquil adder
It doesn’t take much brain power to read channel descriptions and read rules
Lik...
you wanna be an admin so bad
like from was just asking and you throwing a hissy fit
spiral crane
@chrome fog Just ignore him
chrome fog
This better explains the Witness’ motivations
#📚lore-discussion message
spiral crane
Thank you 🙏
chrome fog
you wanna be an admin so bad
Sure, guy who just joined today
tranquil adder
bro stop @ing me dawg you are a waste of time
chrome fog
Holy fuck you literally just plopped in the first channel you saw and thought you could beg someone to hop in
tranquil adder
yea
chrome fog
That’s fucking hilarious how illiterate you are
tranquil adder
??
willow flax
bro stop @ing me dawg you are a waste of time
why are you whining in lore go whine in #✨destiny-discussion
hollow hinge
tranquil adder
That’s fucking hilarious how illiterate you are
lmk when you get admin role big boy
chrome fog
The channel names are right there
chrome fog
Look where you in
noble shard
@tranquil adder this channel is meant for destiny lore, don't derail the channels with topics not specific to the channel
tranquil adder
Look where you in
go pm then if you so mad lol
next bobcat
Get Moderator’d
chrome fog
All the time man
Less than a week since joining, think the lore discussion channel is for lfg
tranquil adder
<@758177396435320903> this channel is meant for destiny lore, don't derail the c...
yo you should give bionicle admin role he wants it bad
noble shard
bro was just asking a question why r u so pissed?
instead of asking the question in the wrong chat, take a few minutes to find where that question belongs
tranquil adder
bro i asked like 10 mins ago bro just wants beef
watch this, they’re gonna attack a staff member
tranquil adder
<:DogKek:1020160834011402240> watch this, they’re gonna attack a staff member
big ass ego
noble shard
bro i asked like 10 mins ago bro just wants beef
you're continuing to instigate instead of going to the right channel you are part of the problem. drop this argument now
last warning
next bobcat
chrome fog
Cackling internally
willow flax
big ass ego
you have a money spread banner stfu 😭😭😭😭
noble shard
that goes for the rest of you
willow flax
im cackling externally
noble shard
stop
next bobcat
Aight I’ll stop
noble shard
go back to lore
tranquil adder
you have a money spread banner stfu 😭😭😭😭
yea bought that off amazon
chrome fog
We’ll get back to nerding
spiral crane
So uh
tranquil adder
<:CaydeThumbsUp:1020160823886348358> We’ll get back to nerding
stay below me baby bro
chrome fog
tranquil adder
https://tenor.com/view/hysterical-laughing-gif-mad-laugh-doctor-laugh-evil-laugh...
you are so cool brp
spiral crane
@chrome fog Was the witness civilization super advanced. Is that why they were able to harness the darkness in ways no one else can
spiral crane
Are the pyramid ships better than normal ships?
chrome fog
<@422866711344185345> Was the witness civilization super advanced. Is that why ...
The Pyramid fleet they command are simultaneously overly technologically advanced as well as being completely paracausal in nature
spiral crane
So they are miles ahead of every other species tech wise
chrome fog
They have the benefit of the totality of the Traveler’s blessing without worry of an encroaching enemy chasing the Traveler down, which they eventually became
spiral crane
Why did they throw that all away and piss of rhe traveler they’re actually stupid
next bobcat
No
spiral crane
Wdym no
spiral crane
Couldn’t they just make their meaning conquering or advancement or something else
next bobcat
They’re basically just sword logic 300%
spiral crane
I thought we didn’t know their “purpose”
broken zephyr
The Upended 
next bobcat
Still don’t know what it does
trim grotto
Still don’t know what it does
Nobody does
next bobcat
It’s kind of deadish now though since akka is dead after we killed rhulk
spiral crane
They’re basically just sword logic 300%
Sword logic is lwky dumb too
Like if u follow that trend everyone will be dead except one guy
And then he’ll starve because of the worm
next bobcat
My theory on the upended is that it turns rhulk’s pyramid into a miniature throne world for him, we killed him there so it died and stuff. The hive make throne worlds and the worm akka might have used some weird hive shit to make it happen
Probably wrong
chrome fog
Couldn’t they just make their meaning conquering or advancement or something els...
Think of it like this: they legit Max es all their experience trees and true 100%’d all they could, but now they have to deal with a universe with no inherent meaning aside from one you make up. They think “No way it’s just. There for the sake of it, there has to be a higher meaning to existence” and ask their benefactor what it is. They are met with silence and their own contemplation on this matter. And so, they feel arbitrarily betrayed by this cold shoulder and overreact, deciding “Ah, to make it easy for everyone else, I’ll just give them what I think the meaning of life should be” like baby’s first authoritarian fascist awakening. And they could make it reality, finding the Veil, discovering Darkness, and realizing that creating a stronger connection between the Traveler and the Veil - like it did in Lightfall - could allow it access to essentially the settings of existence
next bobcat
Those were definitely all words
But I could ascertain no meaning from them
Wait I get it now
Read it 6 times
spiral crane
Think of it like this: they legit Max es all their experience trees and true 100...
More than anything I’m surprised an entire race agreed to all be nihilists together
And all decided to overreact together
And no one thought it might be a dumb idea
chrome fog
More than anything I’m surprised an entire race agreed to all be nihilists toget...
Funnily enough it wasn’t completely everyone who agreed, there is one member who did not participate in the ritual, most likely pointing to this decision being from those higher in power
chrome fog
So they think the final shape is the true meaning?
Final Shape is how they enforce their meaning onto reality
spiral crane
Funnily enough it wasn’t completely everyone who agreed, there is one member who...
Wait who didn’t agree
Do we meet them
chrome fog
Y’know how villains go “And I’ll shape the world in my image!”? Final Shape is that image
chrome fog
Do we meet them
Recent collector’s edition for Final Shape
spiral crane
Y’know how villains go “And I’ll shape the world in my image!”? Final Shape is t...
But for desperate and nihilistic reasons
next bobcat
Final Shape is how they enforce their meaning onto reality
I thought the final shape was like the end of time, like everything just freezes
The final shape of the universe
spiral crane
Recent collector’s edition for Final Shape
So what happened to those guy
spiral crane
I thought the final shape was like the end of time, like everything just freezes
Could he
Be
Depends on what the witness wants
shadow wyvern
I thought the final shape was like the end of time, like everything just freezes
It's not a literal freeze
spiral crane
Maybe he wants to destroy everything because there’s no meaning
next bobcat
I heard that said somewhere
trim grotto
I thought the final shape was like the end of time, like everything just freezes
It's a concept. That's basically the Witness's Final Shape. It's different per enactor.
spiral crane
And find meaning in. That
shadow wyvern
Final Shape is just a term to denote the endstate where nothing more will progress/change.
next bobcat
It's a concept. That's basically the *Witness's* Final Shape. It's different per...
So there’s different final shapes?
shadow wyvern
So there’s different final shapes?
Yes.
spiral crane
So there’s different final shapes?
Yeah
next bobcat
Ok
shadow wyvern
Think of it like the world "conclusion"
next bobcat
Ok
shadow wyvern
Everybody thinks the conclusion will be different or want it to be something different.
trim grotto
So there’s different final shapes?
Yes, as per who is doing it. Consider the Vex and their Convergence, wherein all is Vex, all is simulated, all is machinoformed. That's a Final Shape.
chrome fog
So what happened to those guy
I’d need to read that lorebook, so I myself only know the gist from someone else - namely, they’re floating about in space like Taox, the last remaining proto-hive
spiral crane
Etc
chrome fog
They’d just be a weak thrall, why would we look for her?
next bobcat
She’s one in a krillion
chrome fog
She was the Osmium Court’s Princesses’ tutor and also lead the coup by the Helium Drinkers to overthrow their senile dad
spiral crane
I’d need to read that lorebook, so I myself only know the gist from someone else...
The dude must’ve been floating awhile
next bobcat
She was the Osmium Court’s Princesses’ tutor and also lead the coup by the Heliu...
I know that buddy
chrome fog
Just elaborating, didn’t get to put it in there when mentioning Taox
spiral crane
It’s pretty concerning how desperate the witness is to make the final shape
It’s killed trillions probably
Just for meaning?
They wanted it that badly?
shadow wyvern
What do you mean... just for meaning?
next bobcat
We have yet to turn a krill into a gun or steal a gun from them
We have lord of wolves for fallen,
Multiple for cabal,
Mythoclast for vex,
Quite a lot for hive, notably Ex Diris
Whisper for worm god
Xenophage for human
For scorn I don’t think we have one yet
shadow wyvern
The word itself means that it's the most important thing, no?
spiral crane
The word itself means that it's the most important thing, no?
Not really
chrome fog
Just for meaning?
Not quite right but also not technically wrong
shadow wyvern
Meaning - to have significance - meaning it's what's significant to you.
spiral crane
Meaning - to have significance - meaning it's what's significant to you.
That’s different than forcing the universe to be a certain way
next bobcat
Ahamkara we have wish-keeper
Awoken we have wish-ender
Taken we have the season of the deep weapons
spiral crane
That’s personal meaning vs basically totalitarianism
shadow wyvern
Those aren't contradictory.
next bobcat
We Guardians just love turning people into weapons or stealing their weapons from them
shadow wyvern
Their personal meaning may very well be about totalitarianism.
chrome fog
They wanted it that badly?
Again, they’re a very clear allegory for doomer nihilism, and one student of Nietzsche’s school of thought went on to cause the second largest global conflict the world had seen coming into the 20th century
next bobcat
We even have nezarec in that fusion rifle
spiral crane
Their personal meaning may very well be about totalitarianism.
Well it’s a stupid meaning
And murdering billions for it is also stupid
chrome fog
Their personal meaning may very well be about totalitarianism.
Bingo, they’re cosmic Hitler
spiral crane
Bingo, they’re cosmic Hitler
Not rlly but sure
spiral crane
I don't think The Witness cares about life.
then it’s evil by any standard of morality
chrome fog
spiral crane
That’s a very vague question
shadow wyvern
Someone who wants the world to be what it is not, no?
chrome fog
Someone who wants the world to be what it is not, no?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no; a hero can see a broken world and want to make it not broken
next bobcat
Bingo, they’re cosmic Hitler
shadow wyvern
Not rlly but sure
Actually he's right on the money
shadow wyvern
The Witness' ideology takes on the ideology of the extremists in The Witness' race who won the politics, no?
spiral crane
Actually he's right on the money
Hitter had very different motivations
chrome fog
But the Witness is ostensibly written as a being of pure nihilism, one who uses the inherent meaninglessness of reality to justify its wrongful actions as “Salvation” because it has “Witnessed the truth of reality”, as opposed to just making stuff up on his own
shadow wyvern
It's literally the extremists winning over every other existing ideology within a country - in this case - an entire alien species
next bobcat
Y’know technically the meaning of life is to reproduce and pass on our DNA
That simple
spiral crane
That’s not really a meaning that’s a biological function
We don’t have to do that
But i get ur point
shadow wyvern
Y’know technically the meaning of life is to reproduce and pass on our DNA
We aren't arguing about the actual meaning of life
next bobcat
We weren’t put here for a reason, but all our existence has basically been focused on staying alive until we can pass on our genetics
shadow wyvern
Just meaning and it's place in the story, its role in the big bad's motivations.
spiral crane
What are we arguing about exactly
next bobcat
What are we arguing about exactly
No clue buddy
chrome fog
Hitter had very different motivations
Sure, nationalistic ideals after their country was saddled with the bill for the Great War, to which his beliefs on the purity of race as well as anti-semitism that were passed down from his abusive father and the general mood of Germany at this time compounded with Nietzsche’s writings on nihilism, co-opting the image of the ubermensche to be a figure of genetic purity as opposed to an idealized image of one’s self
spiral crane
Sure, nationalistic ideals after their country was saddled with the bill for the...
Meanwhile the witness ppl were all living it up
Rlly interesting villain tbh
shadow wyvern
Nah.
spiral crane
Props to destiny
shadow wyvern
I prefer The Winnower.
spiral crane
Who is that
next bobcat
Once the witness brings about the final shape, are they going to split back into individuals and just chill, or just stand there like 
shadow wyvern
You've never read The Unveiling?
next bobcat
The winnower is presumed to be the statue in the pyramid (I think)
spiral crane
Is it like the darkness
chrome fog
Meanwhile the witness ppl were all living it up
It’s all stupid mistakes and narcissistic ideologies made for the purpose of exploiting others and prove yourself correct, in the end. To which the answer to this threat is to be humble and make our own Fate
chrome fog
The winnower is presumed to be the statue in the pyramid (I think)
We don’t know what the veiled lady statue is
chrome fog
Oh shit where did Seth post this
next bobcat
We don’t know what the veiled lady statue is
I know why we know it’s a female
shadow wyvern
Oh shit where did Seth post this
Something Awful forums
next bobcat
dim minnow
also from Seth Dickenson
shadow wyvern
When he said that I thought Bungie kind of gave up their ideas presented in Unveiling
But the new lore we got from the collector's edition makes me hopeful that we're still on track
Since it's an outright statement that Winnower =/= Witness
chrome fog
Who is that
So the Winnower is the central perspective which the lorebook Unveiling is written from; they espouse much of the Witness’ own philosophy and values and is foiled against the Gardener in the same lore book (which is notable because the Gardener is another name for the Traveler)
shadow wyvern
That's not true.
The Unveiling is completely contradictory from The Witness' own philosophy.
next bobcat
Is the winnower like a thing person thing
shadow wyvern
The Winnower is a paracausal entity
dim minnow
Is the winnower like a thing person thing
no, it's a metaphor
next bobcat
For
spiral crane
no, it's a metaphor
For what
chrome fog
Beginning of existence
next bobcat
spiral crane
What
next bobcat
Whae
shadow wyvern
Just think of it like a deity imo
chrome fog
It’s half true anyways, we get Unveiling from the Witness so it’s not trustworthy to begin with
spiral crane
So is the winnower the witness?
shadow wyvern
Which you assume to be from the Witness because the Pyramids are the Witness' fleet.
next bobcat
Do we know much about the origins of such things as nezarec and the tormentors? And the subjugators that are coming
chrome fog
We got Unveiling from the Pyramids
The Witness controls the Pyramids
dim minnow
So is the winnower the witness?
the Witness was inspired by the Winnower, but the Witness turned itself into something so different from it
shadow wyvern
Look at it this way.
Okay.
The Winnower / Darkness has a very peculiar interest in us.
Witness gives no fuck
The Winnower is not malicious
The Witness is
spiral crane
So the darkness is sentient?
dim minnow
Do we know much about the origins of such things as nezarec and the tormentors? ...
Nezarec - no
Tormentors - maybe clones of Nezarec
Subjugators - no, but they could be clones of Rhulk
shadow wyvern
The Winnower talks in first person
The Witness talks in third person
There's so many contradictions between the two
next bobcat
Is the veil the equivalent of the traveler? Or is that the winnower
spiral crane
Is the winnower the one who gives us stasis
chrome fog
The Winnower / Darkness has a very peculiar interest in us.
Darkness has no voice, that was the Witness
dim minnow
Is the veil the equivalent of the traveler? Or is that the winnower
The Veil is the Darkness equivalent to the Traveler
next bobcat
Ok
spiral crane
I’m very confused I’m getting different accounts for what the winnower is
chrome fog
Darkness is as sentient as the Light is
next bobcat
The Veil is the Darkness equivalent to the Traveler
Does it give the darkness like the traveler gives the light?
dim minnow
I’m very confused I’m getting different accounts for what the winnower is
the Winnower isn't real
chrome fog
At least not to us
next bobcat
I think my mind just dissolved
spiral crane
Darkness is as sentient as the Light is
Does the darkness have a being the same way the light has the traveler
dim minnow
Does it give the darkness like the traveler gives the light?
more like it is a shaper of the mind while the Traveler is a shaper of the physical world
next bobcat
Does the darkness have a being the same way the light has the traveler
Veil
dim minnow
Does the darkness have a being the same way the light has the traveler
yes, the Veil
shadow wyvern
You will get that the gardener and the winnower work in completely different ways.
spiral crane
Why is it just under Neptune?
chrome fog
I’m very confused I’m getting different accounts for what the winnower is
They’re like an idealized version of what the Witness wanted to achieve, set in the fictitious account of the lorebook Unveiling
shadow wyvern
If the gardener grants light THAT DOES NOT MEAN that the winnower grants darkness
dim minnow
Is it alive?
the way Nezarec and Witness refer to it tells me it is
next bobcat
more like it is a shaper of the mind while the Traveler is a shaper of the physi...
If we get a 3rd darkness subclass it would make sense for it to be nightmares.
dim minnow
If we get a 3rd darkness subclass it would make sense for it to be nightmares.
Nightmares are a form of Deepsight
next bobcat
Explain
dim minnow
a hostile form
chrome fog
If the gardener grants light THAT DOES NOT MEAN that the winnower grants darknes...
Never said otherwise
spiral crane
the way Nezarec and Witness refer to it tells me it is
Why does the witness need to go to Neptune to get the veil? Shouldn’t he already have it