📚lore-discussion

[blazing wasp]

Best way to explain is randomness being a factor, nothing we do is predetermined

[spiral crane]

doesnt matter much to me imo

[blazing wasp]

That you cannot make a genuine, true prediction of everything

That everything has a genuine chance of happening, rather than being always fated to happen

[spiral crane]

i feel like the idea of meaning with regards to the state of existing doesnt fully make sense to me

like things just are

they dont mean anything super deep

[chrome fog]

[spiral crane]

and it doesnt matter much to me that it doesnt

[blazing wasp]

That's basically what positive nihilism is, in a sense.

[spiral crane]

im just here

[blazing wasp]

Nihilism isn't inherently bad

[spiral crane]

i dont wanna hurt anyone because thats mean

and ill just do whatever '

[chrome fog]

That's totally what the Traveler's about, just helping each other, doing good and hoping for the better, instead of going down the deep end like the Witness has

[blazing wasp]

The universe is uncaring, in my viewpoint, this is fine, this is good

[spiral crane]

i feel even that line of thought is implying sentience in a thing thats just there

its like calling a rock uncaring for just sitting there while a building is burning

[blazing wasp]

Sentience is goofy as fuck and I think its based that it can exist

[spiral crane]

its just a rock

[spiral crane]

its literlly the universe experienceing itself

[chrome fog]

Ah, but the universe also includes you and everyone else, so the universe does still care because you care (is a fun way to also look at nihilism's conclusion)

[spiral crane]

thats a fun way to look at it

[chrome fog]

(Also stolen from Norm MacDonald's quote tweet when Neil DeGrasse Tyson was going on about the uncaring nature of the universe)

[spiral crane]

might be a hot take but i dont like Neil degrasse Tyson

[chrome fog]

He's nice when he's not being science doomer

I liked how he explained getting good at math and physics

[spiral crane]

he has a bad habit of taking about fields hes not that knowledgable in

like hes a physicist he shouldnt be acting like he knows everything about nutritional science

[chrome fog]

Yea it sucks

Uh anyway doghives

#📚lore-discussion message

[spiral crane]

that sounds horriying

[blazing wasp]

I mean this in the sense that the universe is neither cruel, nor kind, it just is, and that's actually pretty good.

[spiral crane]

horrifying

[blazing wasp]

Oh yeah

Those

[chrome fog]

Wonder if I could continue that sketch of doghives

[blazing wasp]

Well

I love bees

And dogs

[chrome fog]

I made them cute puppers, but then I was thinking of just a dog in a bee costume instead of an actual hive for a body

[spiral crane]

wouldnt it be like a dog with holes all over it?

and bees flying in and out?

[blazing wasp]

Well, cube holes.

[spiral crane]

that sounds like a horror character

[blazing wasp]

Cube holes aren't as scary

Or hexagon

Whatever

[spiral crane]

it is if theres bees in there

[blazing wasp]

Not to me

I like bees

They're cool

And cute

[chrome fog]

#📚lore-discussion message
#📚lore-discussion message

[blazing wasp]

Bees just kinda vibe

[ember storm]

did somebody say

[blazing wasp]

They don't really care about you unless you upset them

[chrome fog]

Genuinely took a stab at designing a doghive

[spiral crane]

maybe for u

bees hat eme

they always stinging

[chrome fog]

DOGHIVE

[blazing wasp]

Fun fact, if one stings you, you're marked until the smell you now make goes away

Youre marked for death

I've never been stung actually

[chrome fog]

Isn’t that ants?

[spiral crane]

https://tenor.com/view/взгляд-2000-ярдов-война-war-soldier-gif-3632617944134077161

[blazing wasp]

Not by a bee

[blazing wasp]

Maybe that too

But it's also bees.

[chrome fog]

I’m sure that’s ants, they smell the pheromones a dead ant gives off - the scent version of a death scream - and then the rest of the colony knows to get you

[spiral crane]

oh well thats chill

what are ants gonna do?

steal my food?

[chrome fog]

Have you had fire ants all over your legs

[blazing wasp]

For bees it's similar, just looked it up

[spiral crane]

https://tenor.com/view/взгляд-2000-ярдов-война-war-soldier-gif-3632617944134077161

[blazing wasp]

Being stung makes you give off a chemical that also makes bees attack you

[chrome fog]

Interesting and neat, really takes advantage of the fact they are swarm creatures

[blazing wasp]

It makes sense that they have this in hindsight

They're supposed to be extremely good at communication

They literally are responsible for a "hive mind"

[chrome fog]

Uh any more lore questions?

[ember storm]

if I were to introduce canines to the hive

would hive-ghost esque defectors be considered

a hive dog

[chrome fog]

If you follow the philosophy of Scandinavia, anything can be called a dog if it slightly enough

Albino my favorite Norwegian steamer

[dim minnow]

"Titan Warlord, Husband. He has many titles. But you can call him Shaxx."

what do you mean "husband"?

[jagged badge]

Crimson Days babey

Shaxx is married to anyone who won his vow

[dim minnow]

yeah I guess there's that

[empty fern]

Stop trying to bring it into being

[chrome fog]

Honey Puppy

[ember storm]

combed canis

[smoky rose]

Did we talk about there being grimoires in the hall of whateverthefuck

[torn hazel]

Brushed lupis

[dim minnow]

what?

[dim minnow]

BUNGIE FINALLY ACKNOWLEDGED LORE IN-GAME

LORE IS NOW CANON

[shadow crypt]

What’s a grimoire?

[trim grotto]

That's what D1 lore was. Grimoire cards.

It's a type of book.

[chrome fog]

You would find scannable ghost shells around the overworld and they would provide the grimoires

Were there any that weren’t ghost shells?

[dim minnow]

those were specfically galled "Ghost Fragments"

[chrome fog]

Ah, and then the scannables provided some grimoires

[dim minnow]

other Grimoire cards were earned through completing missions and killing most bosses for the first time

[chrome fog]

Ah

[dim minnow]

scannables just gave dialogue

then others were granted from certain milestones like killing a specific amount of certain enemies

also I believe obtaining exotic weapons gave some as well

it basically depends on what grimoire card

[warm gazelle]

you had to use an app to read the cards lol

it wasn't like D2 where the lore can be found in-game

i remember that

[chrome fog]

I thought it was neat way before I even started playing, but yeah it’s better having the convenience of collections

[warm gazelle]

I didn't have a smartphone back then

[shadow crypt]

Is that the black heart we see in the into the light stream?

or whatever it’s called

behind shaxx

[dim minnow]

no

Black Heart was destroyed

[shadow crypt]

oh

[dim minnow]

plus, even if it wasn't, that thing was a threat to us all

no reason we would keep it intact let alone stored in the Tower

[chrome fog]

Me neither

[smoky rose]

As best we can tell it's kind of meming on the raw power that the Superblack shader has over people

especially us hunters

[trim grotto]

Firstly, do not lump us in as a group - hiss
Secondly, what

[smoky rose]

Did you watch the stream

We need to collect keys to open the containment chamber behind shaxx which gives us the superblack shader

I can only assume that makes this superblack

[dim minnow]

oh shit, Mael's here, time to play his theme song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqYPBOJ7Lk

[trim grotto]

Banned

[trim grotto]

I have not had an opportunity to

[jagged badge]

El bozo

Simply get an opportunity to

😌

[dim minnow]

they're bringing back Stranger's Rifle and renaming it to Elsie's Rifle

and the Stranger's Rifle is supposedly a variant of NTTE that degraded

so either the new version of it is the same Inachi timeline analysis variant that we got from D1, or it could be the Hari analysis version which as far as I'm aware we haven't seen yet

unless Fate of All Fools is that one

[tawny heron]

What's the best titan jump

[empty fern]

Saint says burst

[chrome fog]

#❓destiny-questions

[empty fern]

(This man asks in the wrong channels once again)

[trim grotto]

Does he?

[empty fern]

Yes

He mentioned it in Martian Missives
Book 9

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

Yea

Trust

[empty fern]

You think there was any mention of devrim before d2?

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/i-think-not-coincidence-coincidence-i-think-not-i-dont-think-so-gif-22491031

[empty fern]

[shadow warren]

What does the lynx-looking animal represent in the weapon sights shown in the reveal stream

Ik it’s shown up in the past

P sure it’s byf’s youtube pfp

[trim grotto]

Not quite. Nearly.

It was used in early concept art. And, uh, basically nowhere else. It's sort of a Destiny logo. The tiger game engine, for example.

[shadow warren]

Oh gotcha

[heady monolith]

byf is a weapon foundry now

[shadow warren]

Wild

Will the origin perk misinform damaged enemies

[trim grotto]

As you fire, you hear a distant whisper on the breeze: "The DSC is on Enceladuuusss..."

[jagged badge]

Hm?

OH

I’m silly

[jagged badge]

Man I want an enchilada now

[trim grotto]

[ember storm]

something something Shaxx tiger man probably

I haven’t watched any of it

[jagged badge]

Do you not?

[ember storm]

I crave monetary gain

[warm gazelle]

damn I always see strafe being used in the crucible

[rich smelt]

how does takin become 2x bigger, and makes a hover wheelchair. between him escaping the icechamber, to the crash?

[ember storm]

I don’t know what you mean

Taniks has always been big

that’s just what an abundance of ether consumption does

also I think we black out from the crash so he could have anything under 24 hours to jury rig new legs and prepare an ambush

[warm gazelle]

wouldn't our ghost wake us up if we blacked out

[ember storm]

what is he supposed to do about that

[warm gazelle]

wdym

are you asking how to wake someone up

yelling in their ear works

nudging them a bit

[chrome fog]

A concussion is a concussion, not taking a little nap

[ember storm]

that’s not what being blacked out means

[warm gazelle]

dying ain't exactly a nap either, but they can bring us back up from that just fine

[ember storm]

because the light can undo death

death is not concussion

they can’t just magically fix everything

ghosts can’t help you in any way if you’re drowning, for example

[warm gazelle]

i just watched cayde's death scene and the reason he pulls out his ghost is so (he/she idk) can help fix some damage he sustained during the fight with scorn

[ember storm]

some minor physical injuries when he’s awake

he had more damage during the red war

and also getting roughed up by some rotting corpses isn’t exactly the same as being trapped inside of a space station that’s falling from space

[warm gazelle]

didn't say it was

but tbh, it's kind of surprising we survived that drop at all

would make more sense if we did die and it was our ghost reviving us at the start I think

Taniks is such a chad he can rebuild himself very quickly

but hey, bungie had us survive that atmospheric re-entry at the beginning of Halo 3 which was absolutely insane

[warm gazelle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd9pDZczOy8 if only this was real

[ember storm]

eh

[chrome fog]

What you are suggesting is that Ghost is going to be able to instantaneously wake the Guardian up from being unconscious because he is able to raise you up from death otherwise; but when we crash land and black out, we're already fully healed save for our shields, so all that's wrong is... our conciousness, which Ghost hasn't been shown to affect in any way

[chrome fog]

Byf and the irreprable effects of misinterpreting mutual grieving

[warm gazelle]

tf is a byf

[chrome fog]

https://www.youtube.com/@MynameisByf

Lore Youtuber who first popularized that interpretation of Mara and Shaxx getting together; he later addresses that it's more clear that Shaxx and Mara were mutually mourning the loss of Sjur Eido, Mara's true lover and a friend of Shaxx

That audio log you posted is a reference to this widely spread misinterpretation by the community

https://youtu.be/fdsChJ-KJRg?si=bF6g_j2uP30We8Vn

Sjur Eido was also a friend of Misraaks, having saved him once and leading him down the path of seeking mutual cooperation with humanity; Eido, his adoptive daughter, is named after her

[spiral crane]

What are the taken

Why are they all black and stuff

[empty fern]

The taken are husks of their former selves, made slaves for a higher being
They are black and stuff due to, space magic

[spiral crane]

Who’s the higher being

[empty fern]

Witness now probably

[errant olive]

The taken were introduced to used while under the control of Oryx, one of the Hive gods

But we killed him in the King's Fall raid during the Taken King expansion of destiny 1

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/linden-loves-oryx-oryx-destiny2-gif-26612337

[errant olive]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-kings-fall-season-of-plunder-witch-queen-oryx-gif-26626506

[spiral crane]

So they were originally under one guys control and they got swapped to another dudes control?

How does that work?

[empty fern]

Oryx got his power from uhhh, tablets, made by witness, after oryx died, witness commands them directly

That should be it

[jagged badge]

Oryx inscribed the tablets himself based on the Deep’s instruction or something to that effect

Small correction but

[empty fern]

Ah ok

(I had no idea where the tablets came from)

[chrome fog]

Specifically he was taught the power to Take by the Witness, which Nexus is correct about being the one responsible for their transformation

Oh I should scroll down more

[empty fern]

Bozo

[chrome fog]

But yeah, Taken are transformed by the Witness after being transported to it via the power of Taking, which we’ve come to theorize moreso involves general teleportation - look to the destinations which were Taken at the end of Arrivals for example, and Sloane’s appearance when revealed in Deep also suggests

[empty fern]

Bionicle

You were so close to a pun, damn you

“They were taken to the witness” something like that

[chrome fog]

I’m so sorry for the fumble, blame me finding out bullshit happening with my college stuff

MAGICALLY I no longer need to take public speaking for some reason

Which is fine, just. pissing me off that the goalposts keep shifting

[warm gazelle]

ayy i just killed that guy for the first time a couple days ago

[warm gazelle]

Aren't a lot of them aimless these days? No higher master to speak of, just wandering around killing everyone in their path.

[chrome fog]

If a strong enough will like the Ahamkara in Warlord’s Ruin exerts their will over them, Taken will follow their command; but yeah they’re mostly aimless rn

[ember storm]

they’re led by whatever takes command, mostly Xivu as of recent

they also cooperate with shadow legion operations

[warm gazelle]

I saw that in Lightfall, I figured those ones were on loan from the Witness

[ember storm]

not really loan

[warm gazelle]

but outside of Neptune the Taken are just kinda there

[ember storm]

disciples are equally worthless to the witness as literal mindless slaves

it just sent two teams on the same job

[ember storm]

the taken in the dreaming city are caught in the curse and physically incapable of leaving

also reprised strikes have the explanations for continued taken activity, such as EDZ

[empty fern]

Blame the shadow legion

[ember storm]

I wish bungie would screw over new lights by replacing all red legion with shadow legion at appropriate 1830 level

[exotic cloak]

I wish Bungie replace all red legion with shadow legion and makes the defiance battleground actual EDZ and Cosmodrome places

The 1830 is not necessary though

[spiral crane]

What caused the first collapse

[empty fern]

The darkness

[spiral crane]

So did the witness pu?

Or what

[chrome fog]

There has only been one Collapse, at least for humans; which was the simultaneous arrival of all other alien species into the Sol System as well as the Arrival of the Witness' forces in the form of the Pyramid Ships - with Nezarec and Rhulk in tow - to which all of humanity was wholly unprepared for, caught in the middle of their advances into colonizing both within and outside of the system

[spiral crane]

So all the alien factions just came at once

And attacked us

And that was the collapse

[chrome fog]

Yes

[spiral crane]

How bad was it for humanity?

Did it affect us greatly

[chrome fog]

Yeah, the collapse of human society which took us from the Golden Age and dipped us back into nearly medieval societies

[spiral crane]

Did we recover?

How did we not get wiped out

[chrome fog]

The Last City exists

[spiral crane]

Was the last city always there or was it created after the medieval conditions

[chrome fog]

Because of coincidence and timing; Savathun betrayed Nezarec, killing him, as well as trapping Rhulk within his own Pyramid

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

@spiral crane I believe this quick summary should provide a good illustration of how we have progressed into the Golden Age, fell in the Collapse into the Dark Ages, and then rebuilt back into the City Age
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om28A9hTST0

As well as the timeline featured in Ishtar Collective's website

[trim grotto]

Lightbearers existed since the beginning of the Dark Age. Although we warred with one another, many also protected people, especially once the Iron Lords were formed.

Yeah that video is a good vague overview

[jagged badge]

No

It was just the Black Fleet

The Fallen, Hive, Vex and Cabal were all encountered later (or technically some were encountered during the Golden Age but didn’t play a part in the Collapse)

Unless perhaps the Hive were involved somewhat on the moon?

Point is though, it wasn’t every faction

[jagged badge]

I’m not sure where you got this

[chrome fog]

The Collapse occurred over a long period of time, in which all the other factions and races arrived; though I should have worded that differently to make it apparent, however I was trying to explain the timeline as they were rapidly asking their questions

[trim grotto]

Fallen and Cabal arrived post-Collapse.

[jagged badge]

And the Hive weren’t actively encountered until Burning Lake or whatever right?

[trim grotto]

Except for a minor Collapse incident they were rarely seen for many years

[chrome fog]

@spiral crane These eras are fairly broad and have many different events occurring simultaneously, but as outlined in the video, we had flourished as a civilization under the Traveler's guidance, and then our society Collapsed almost entirely with the arrival of the Pyramids into the Sol System, to which the Traveler created the Ghosts to raise those who could weild the power of the Light in defense of those who were helpless; this was not immediately the case, as many of these early Lightbearers became Warlords instead and held territories across Earth.

[jagged badge]

Ikora and Ophiuchus also muse over why a Warlord’s helmet could look Hive inspired right?

For the Loreley lore?

[trim grotto]

They do, incorrectly.

[jagged badge]

The Loreley

😮

[jagged badge]

How do you mean?

[chrome fog]

I'm a little shaky on my knowledge after this period, mael would you please continue the explanation of the timeline?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/loreley-splendor-helm

"Don't read. Deduce."

She laughed, feeling silly. "Gallic-inspired design. " She paused, gazing into the imperfect etching as something ate at her.

"I'm sorry, no. See this third eye? The cheek flanges? He clearly made a Hive-inspired helmet to strike fear into his enemies."

"No, this was centuries before we encountered the Hive." She turned the helm over and gave it a careful sniff. Dust. Sweat. Linseed. Frankincense. "No smell of decay. Oiled. A warrior is buried in his armor, but this was buried next to him, not on him."```
Now, here's the fun bit

We've heard the name Carnunta elsewhere

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/laminak-li

[trim grotto]

Nope! I'm going back to work now.

[chrome fog]

aauuggggh my shoulderblade still hurts and colleg wwuaagh

[trim grotto]

You're turning into an orc

[jagged badge]

LOOKS LIKE MEAT’S BACK ON THE MENU BOYS

[chrome fog]

What I wouldn't do to be a fungus-based muscled berserker who makes stuff happen with the power of imagination

[exotic cloak]

I decided to complete the Dead Exos Triumph on Europa and damn some of those are really hurting

[torn hazel]

That was serious pain for me. Fuck Clovis Bray

Off topic, I'm confused about Amanda Holliday's death. I thought she died to the Witness in space while fighting the Black Fleet in that cinematic, but now I'm seeing online that she died in an explosion. What is going on with that? She survived being unraveled and crashing into another dropship, but died to a nuke or something? I'm very confused

[jagged badge]

She wasn’t unravelled

We didn’t specifically know her fate in the Lightfall opening cinematic, but Season of Defiance immediately shows how she crashed somewhere on Earth and we find her

We then begin running ops with her, Devrim and Mithrax with the aid of Mara’s magic to infiltrate the Pyramids and free prisoners of war

Amanda met her actual fate when we were lured into a trap and the facility was set to self destruct

[torn hazel]

I just remembered the witness flicking his wrist and people and that ghost came apart. Since her ship did too then blew up I assumed she unraveled too before blowing up in her ship

Oh so she somehow survived the crash

[jagged badge]

You misremembered. Her ship didn’t come apart

[torn hazel]

I guess I was so tired I must have missed that in the mission

[jagged badge]

It shows her crashing into one of the disassembled ships but then cuts to black

Fakeout, kinda like Uldren in Taken King tbh

[torn hazel]

You're right

[jagged badge]

Perhaps that was an intentional parallel given her relationship with Crow

[torn hazel]

Uldren always be fake dying

[jagged badge]

If by always you mean once then yeah

[torn hazel]

Like what kind of relationship?

[jagged badge]

They were close friends before Amanda discovered Crow’s identity as the resurrected Uldren

[torn hazel]

He faked out in taken king then died and came back as a guardian later. That's twice

[jagged badge]

Guardian resurrection ain’t a fake death. It’s a literal genuine death and then brought back

Kinda the point of it lmao

[torn hazel]

I'm talking about the coming back more than the dying

[jagged badge]

Amanda lashed out when she discovered this, especially due to her closeness to Cayde. She admitted later how she knew it wasn’t fair to Crow but she still had complicated feelings about it all

And unfortunately, they weren’t given the time to reconcile before her death 😞

[torn hazel]

I'm not forgiving him. I understand I should and why, but I can't. I want to shoot him

[jagged badge]

There’s nothing to forgive him for

Crow didn’t do anything

[torn hazel]

I get that

[jagged badge]

But I have good news. We already did shoot Uldren for what he did

Whole reason he was dead

[torn hazel]

It's not logical, just how I feel

[torn hazel]

I did watch that on YouTube. I stopped paying attention to Destiny for a couple years after that and that's why I'm so confused on current lore

I used to watch every lore video on YouTube religiously

[exotic cloak]

@torn hazel https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd4COL1ReBDz9qn5nW02hQ9mIlI9nhij3&si=T56yjdVXYbU6Hw76 This a playlist with all the story from Red War to Seraph

In Defiance besides Amanda dead nothing really important happened so you did not lose anything

[torn hazel]

Thanks

I guess I need to finish Defiance

[chrome fog]

Crow is not Uldren, this is a fact brought into question in Crow's proper introduction with us in Season of the Hunt, where 1) he saves Osiris (then recently possessed by Savathun after Sagira died offscreen in the pair's hunt for Xivu Arath's High Celebrant) and also assists us in dealing with the Wrathborn situation, himself not understanding why everyone wanted to kill him on sight save for the fact that whoever he was in his previous life seriously pissed everyone off; 2) Season of the Haunted has Crow as the first of the three allies of ours deal with the new Nightmares which torment them, having just recieved Uldren's memories from Savathun in the previous season, Season of the Lost. His portion of the seasonal story highlights that as much as he and many others feel like he bears the weight of Uldren's actions, he is ultimately another person, and that instead of letting his past life convict him of Uldren's sins, it can serve to guide him where to go.

[torn hazel]

I get all that. He has the same face and is physically the same person. That face, that body killed Cayde. He did it even if he doesn't remember and became a different person

And he's gotta live with that

I'm glad he remembers because he should suffer the weight of his actions forever

[exotic cloak]

Uldren Sov has been dead six years, all we have now is Crow

And Crow has nothing to do with Uldren actions

Is just unfair

[chrome fog]

Imagine having a twin who fell off the deep end and then everyone judging you for his actions despite not doing them at all, nor condoning them

[torn hazel]

By that logic Cayde isn't Ace's father and shouldn't miss him

Having memory loss doesn't mean you're not you

[exotic cloak]

We don't even know if Ace is real thought but

[torn hazel]

Time still recorded what he did and so do I

[exotic cloak]

Is not just memory loss

Is like

A completely different person

[torn hazel]

That's not how that works

That's just an identity disorder

[exotic cloak]

That's literally how it works, guardians when first resurrection lose all their memories

[torn hazel]

I know that

[exotic cloak]

The guardian after that is just another person in the body of a stranger

[torn hazel]

I'm saying that doesn't erase history or who you are just because you forgot

[exotic cloak]

Who knows, maybe us were even worse than Uldren in the past

[torn hazel]

Same mind body and soul

[exotic cloak]

But that doesn't matter, because is not us

[chrome fog]

The whole point of a resurrection is that it is a blank slate, the same personality and habits but starting anew. You do not wake up with any memories of your past life, you are given all that's necessary solely to move around and communicate, and then hopefully you follow your ghost to somewhere safe. The extent of this is such that delving into your past life is considered taboo, Ana Bray having to fake her own death to dig deeper into his past life and Cayde keeping Ace and Queen secret in his journals, as well as Crow's unique situation in being the only Guardian with memories of his past life. To further iterate the divide between lives, Crow does not view or refer to Uldren's memories as his own point of view aside from second-hand guilt, it is always referenced as not his own. It's just kinda ignorant to overlook this significant part of Crow's story which has been explored over 3/4 years because of the physical similarity that Crow has to Uldren.

A Guardian is not their past life. That is a fact.

[torn hazel]

It matters to me. I think all guardians should seek there oast to find who they were, remember and be better. I understand he's goid now and redeeming himself, but I'm still mad and Cayde's still dead

[chrome fog]

Well womp womp

[trim grotto]

Then, with respect, you don't understand why a Guardian has no memory.

[exotic cloak]

And Cayde is not dead

[trim grotto]

The Hidden Logbook goes into this topic in thorough detail, from Ikora's perspective.

[exotic cloak]

[torn hazel]

It's taboo because the Vanguard said so and they have been wrong before

It's wrong to deny people their own memories because you think it could be dangerous

[exotic cloak]

I mean, it is

You can see it

[torn hazel]

So what if it is. It's a person's right to know who they are

[jagged badge]

Cayde likely made Ace up to shape future blank slate versions of himself into better people than he used to be

[trim grotto]

I think it's clear that you've missed the past few years of storytelling regarding Crow. This topic has been covered extensively, and unfortunately, I don't have time to go over it and the many, many story points in detail.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit?usp=drivesdk

I can recommend this as a strong start to the topic, however.

[exotic cloak]

Again, that's the thing, they aren't that person

[torn hazel]

This is like some Jedi level fear of falling to the Dark Side stuff

[trim grotto]

Catch me in four or five hours and I can go over the topic in detail, with sources. For now, try the transcript.

[torn hazel]

I literally said that I missed the last few years of lore

[trim grotto]

I don't have time to go over the full discussion. I'm at work.

So, I can help in a few hours.

[torn hazel]

Philosophically sure, but scientifically no

I don't care about the philosophical sense. Dude's a murderer

[jagged badge]

Uldren was. Crow isn’t

It’s that simple

[chrome fog]

Then another example: Lord Felwinter.

Originally a frame and subsystem of Rasputin whose main function was to act as an avatar for him to interact with human society and better grow as a burgeoning sentient, the destroyed frame was resurrected as Felwinter and then subsequently hunted by Rasputin, as Big Red felt that the Traveler had taken his "son" away from him. This persisted for a great period of time, culminating in the Iron Lords' raid into one of Rasputin's bunkers to procure a SIVA generator, which would assist the Last City's construction efforts as was the nanomachines' original function: colony construction. In the end of this event, Felwinter and the few Iron Lords who survived and were able to get into the Bunker (many of the other having died to Rasputin's Warsats, combat frames, and general firepower) became infested by SIVA - now controlled by Rasputin - and turned into corrupted enemy we have to fight in the Rise of Iron Expansion.

Now who would you say Felwinter is?
Is he Rasputin?
Is he the submind "Golem Siddhartha"?
Or is he his own individual person as demonstrated by his autonomy when ressurected?

[torn hazel]

Seeing as he remembers they are again the same person, he just regrets it

[jagged badge]

No

Crow gaining Uldren’s memories doesn’t make him Uldren again. Crow was a blank slate who was imprinted on by his new experiences

He has chosen to identify with Uldren, remembering the good and choosing to rectify the bad

That’s his personal prerogative to do so

He regrets Cayde’s death and feels responsible, but that’s because Crow is a compassionate, caring and responsible person

And not because Crow did said act

[torn hazel]

He was an empty vessel that became a person

[chrome fog]

If we were to accept your conclusion that Guardians are still who they were in their past lives, then nothing about Felwinter would work as 1) while he shares some traits with Rasputin, he's not wholly like his "father" and does not share the same ties to Red as Red does to him; 2) he wouldn't be resurrectable at all in the first place, as he isn't even originally human, but there is enough "personhood" within the submind that Felwinter original was that Felspring was able to latch onto

To reiterate what Mael and many others who have kept up with the lore of Crow and how Bungie and the overal narrative of Destiny has presented his relationship with Uldren as his past life:

Crow is NOT Uldren

[torn hazel]

We don't have to agree. You know that, right?

[chrome fog]

You're objecting to something which the story is presenting as true. It's being willfully ignorant to correction.

[torn hazel]

These are just perspectives

[jagged badge]

Nope

[torn hazel]

It's almost like I make my own thoughts

[jagged badge]

Your thoughts are wrong

[torn hazel]

I don't care

[chrome fog]

Damn maybe we should follow the Witness since sometimes I also feel like life has no inherent purpose except to survive, so maybe we should purposefully lose to the Witness so that they can make the universe better like they said they would

[torn hazel]

It's my right to have them, seems the world forgot that

[chrome fog]

In any case this is a waste of time

[gentle geyser]

You can’t be a killer if you literally just got created into the body of a killer that was dead

Crow isn’t a murderer

[torn hazel]

So if a murderer goes into a coma and has amnesia those people are alive and he's innocent 👍

[chrome fog]

He fucking died, he didn’t slip into a coma

You didn’t pistol whip him

[trim grotto]

Alright folks, relax. I'll go over the topic later with sources, references, and perspectives.

[exotic cloak]

Dead the thing is you are doing the wrong example

Is not a memory loss, is not a coma

Is literally dead

[torn hazel]

Something as serious as murder shouldn't be excused because of who someone suddenly feels they are. For all we know he's lying

[exotic cloak]

Past self of guardians literally die

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

Guardians born as a new person

[jagged badge]

What is blud waffling about now

[exotic cloak]

Maybe is the same body but they are not the same person, in any sense

[trim grotto]

Well, no. That's objectively incorrect, that isn't even a perspective issue.

[gentle geyser]

Its not memory lose Uldren is literally dead, gone, there are no memories, crow only got them because of big moth lady

Crow isn’t a new mindset it’s literally a different person

[torn hazel]

Yeah well in real life he'd still go to prison. Who cares what he thinks or feels about who he is/was.

[jagged badge]

Well, ehh

We see in the similarities that Crow and Uldren share that there is some basis

[gentle geyser]

Your just making up stuff now

[trim grotto]

Everyone does. That's the philosophy of Destiny.

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

Ah look I don't have time to chat and mobile is too hard to source with
I'll get back to this in four or five hours

[exotic cloak]

That's the thing Dead, you are judging with wrong examples and a perspective that is just not correct with the concept

[spiral crane]

Do the vanguard do anything bad

[exotic cloak]

And I assure in real life they won't go to prison but that's needs a stupidly long explanation

[exotic cloak]

A lot

[torn hazel]

That's all I'm saying! He just hapoened to kill the Hunter Vanguard and I care more about that than any other crime by guardians in a past life because Cayde was awesome

[gentle geyser]

Uldren in the most literal sense died, not a coma, not dead for 2 minutes, like straight up dead, corpse

[exotic cloak]

Emmm

[spiral crane]

So we’re not fully the good guys?

[exotic cloak]

We are the good guys

[chrome fog]

Wonder what your thoughts are on Shaxx - as a Warlord, not in his past life even - killing innocent beggars in the Dark Ages to maintain rule over his territory

[jagged badge]

Uldren did. Crow didn’t. We already got our revenge on Uldren for it by literally killing him

Uldren is gone and can’t come back. He is dead, forever

[exotic cloak]

Like, seriously we are the good guys there's no single doubt every other living being is 10x worst than us

[torn hazel]

I think that's real fucked up

[spiral crane]

So what bad things did we do

[exotic cloak]

I'm not an expert on the matter but

[spiral crane]

That sounds a little unrealistic

[gentle geyser]

Our enemies are a race set out on the belief of genocide, murderous time robots, pissed off spiders, and big rats

[jagged badge]

The Great Hunt is sorta a grey thing. The Ahamkara had it coming but you can still see it as bad that the Vanguard sanctioned a species’ extinction I suppose

[torn hazel]

That's literally a mental illness you're describing

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

Is what it is

[chrome fog]

Or Saint’s masacre of innocent Eliksni who weren’t even part of combat, of which he became a literal boogeyman for the Eliksni from how focused he was on eradicating Eliksni after Six Fronts

[jagged badge]

This is such insane cope

[gentle geyser]

No its not, you do not know what actual mental illness is

[jagged badge]

What is this guy even going on about

💀

Classic Cayde stans I guess

[exotic cloak]

You can say a lot of things about vanguard, talk about cruelty with or enemies and a lot of grey situations

But you know, the other factions literally wanted to erase us

Just go back to Red War

[chrome fog]

@torn hazel My point being with Shaxx and Saint is, if Crow is responsible for the sins of his past life, what excuses Saint and Shaxx in your eyes from actions they committed as Lightbearers

[torn hazel]

I just said it's because he killed Cayde. We never knew thise other murdered people. He killed our friend, not some random aliens

[exotic cloak]

House Of Salvation literally wanted to destroy the traveler

[chrome fog]

Shaxx killed fellow humans

[gentle geyser]

Crow did not murder cayde.

[exotic cloak]

Eliksni attacked the city

And so on

[jagged badge]

Uldren killed Cayde and we already killed Uldren for it. We got our payback. It’s over. Done

[exotic cloak]

We did bad things but compared to our enemies we are jesus fucking christ

[torn hazel]

Oh shit. I don't? Please tell me how there's not a history mental illness in my family. And go tell my psychiatrist that too. Stfu

[jagged badge]

Chill out dude

This isn’t that deep at all

[chrome fog]

Again, what this is illustrating is willful ignorance of what Destiny as a story has been trying to say as part of its message, much less what it literally states to you the player as you see events unveil before you

[torn hazel]

They went there first

[gentle geyser]

Clearly you aren’t intelligent about the matter and just want to use it as an argument to say that your right

[jagged badge]

You’re just being weirdly stubborn because you’ve got this hyper attachment to Cayde to the point you see this as some personal slight or something

[exotic cloak]

Guys we are on circles

[gentle geyser]

You keep stating factually false info

And using examples that aren’t possible

[chrome fog]

To the extent which it’s best to drop this conversation here and wait until Mael returns and better illustrates what’s wrong in your interpretation of events

@heavy vortex Nothing serious but I would like to reinforce that this topic should be dropped

Mael will help better explain but he’s got work

[torn hazel]

I actually am and I don't let perspective and dillusion get in the way. Uldren/Crow has an identity disorder. That's a fact and I'm not gonna indulge it and agree with him because that is damaging and make me have the same problem

[chrome fog]

Drop it

[jagged badge]

💀💀💀

[calm slate]

if you're using that logic then cayde is a dickhead and banshee is a mass murderer

[chrome fog]

Oh yeah, Banshee being Clovis

But also

[jagged badge]

Imagine being this confidently wrong about lore

[calm slate]

exo stuff is a bit diff yes

[torn hazel]

They are. I never said they weren't or that I was or wasn't cool with it

[calm slate]

but similar enough in this sense

[chrome fog]

Since no opinions are being changed in the interim, it might be good to move on

[calm slate]

ngl uldren did us a favor tho

[jagged badge]

[calm slate]

mf finally saved our ears from that dogass writing for cayde

[exotic cloak]

Damn

Dude

[torn hazel]

It's my perspective. Does it really bother you so much when people don't agree with you?

[exotic cloak]

Crow's case is a thing but

[chrome fog]

Moving on

[exotic cloak]

Banshee literally restarted himself 54 times

[jagged badge]

It’s my perspective that grass is red

[exotic cloak]

Theres no fucking Clovis Bray there

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

Not a single

He is permanently damaged his memory is not bray or his own

[calm slate]

mf uses telesto, theres def some clovis left

[torn hazel]

You're a child

[calm slate]

anyways yall

[torn hazel]

And you teach not to educate but to belittle and stroke your ego

[calm slate]

alright

anyways

[exotic cloak]

I mean you won't? Telesto is the best weapon in the game, it is enough to one shot Rhulk!

[jagged badge]

Let’s talk about how Drifter once said “big daddy Calus” instead

[calm slate]

final shape CE lore book am I right?

[jagged badge]

Or that

[calm slate]

(I did not read it)

[jagged badge]

That lore book was pretty cool

[exotic cloak]

Talking about Drifter

[jagged badge]

I also liked the autographs one

Made me smile

[calm slate]

is it actually worth the hype

[jagged badge]

Also confirmation that my beloved Micah-10 is alive

[calm slate]

because people would not stop yapping about it when it came out

[exotic cloak]

He only has used the light to burn his coin in like

Two cinematics

I think I asked before but he actually uses his power?

[jagged badge]

I thought it was a cool and insightful read personally

[exotic cloak]

On any lore book, is like bro doesn't want to use light

[jagged badge]

Drifter distrusted the Light and didn’t like relying on it

So he doesn’t use it much

[dim minnow]

Big daddy Calus
Daddy Immaru
Oryx the Nightmare Daddy

[chrome fog]

Pocketing that rant in case dead still doesn’t get it 5 hours from now

[jagged badge]

He performed “minor miracles” in the Dark Age for the benefit of others but hated relying on it himself, which is why he starved to death so often

[exotic cloak]

I guess is the same with stasis

[exotic cloak]

Damn

[jagged badge]

You missed Crawdaddy

[chrome fog]

Crabcakes

Doesn't Eido misinterpret that nickname to mean like cakes for crabs, instead of cakes made of crab?

[dim minnow]

just remembered that they made that canon

[chrome fog]

Hold on, idk if this is a Destinypedia moment, but did Cayde used to have yellow eyes?

Seeing this render and remembering his baby-blues dying out in the intro to Forsaken is throwing me for a loop

[exotic cloak]

Nothing to do but we talking but, I know I'm late but damn Forsaken E3 is just perfect

Is masterfully executed

The music, the movement

[chrome fog]

No yeah, even his D1 renders have him with blue eyes, was worried I was wigging out

[exotic cloak]

I don't know how I did not see that before

Is amazing

[chrome fog]

Someone really recreated Cayde for the logo refresh, huh

[dim minnow]

you're Kate?
no, you're jhosepiznaga

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/applause-gif-9929460

Lorechat we have fun here

[exotic cloak]

Oh fuck, I was referring I'm 6 years late

[spiral crane]

Destinys factions are pretty black and white

[chrome fog]

Eeehhhh

[spiral crane]

I mean from lore perspective it seems like the vanguard are goody two shoes

[exotic cloak]

Is like more, everyone is grey

But, the other ones are significantly more assholes than us

[dim minnow]

really depends on perspective

[chrome fog]

Oh heck no, they're often shown as being severely flawed, Zavala in his overzealousness to keeping order and Ikora's Hidden and other habits hinting at her latent paranoia and doubts

[dim minnow]

Vex don't even perceive concepts like benevolence, malice, morals, etc.

[exotic cloak]

I don't know enough but I don't really see grey on the hive, yeah they were fooled yeah but

[spiral crane]

Do they ever act on it in terrible ways though?

[exotic cloak]

Everything after that is just their actions

[dim minnow]

the Hive, we consider them as evil, but to themselves, they act in a way they believe aligns best with the Universe

[exotic cloak]

You can kinda understand the revenge and such but is not like something that had to happen

[spiral crane]

Every bad faction acts the way they think is best for teh world

[dim minnow]

with the Cabal, you have individuals like Ghaul and Caiatl who are respectable, but also have Calus and the Red Legion

[spiral crane]

Most bad ppl don’t think they’re bad ppl

[exotic cloak]

I love when Savathun tells us we actually enjoy the sword logic

I find that very interesting

Because maybe not the guardian

But the player

[dim minnow]

now see we always base it off of our morals

[exotic cloak]

We as players just want to destroy everything that moves

[dim minnow]

reality is Hive are not human, so human morals cannot be applicable if you want an ulterior view of things

[exotic cloak]

We aren't far of wanting everything to show it deserves to live

[spiral crane]

Well for us it’s also just a video game

[chrome fog]

Well the Hunter Vanguard was a constantly revolving door for doomed-by-the-narrative hunters to take up, to the point which they developed the Vanguard Dare to shove the responsibility to anyone unlucky enough to get it; Osiris and Saint were the first and only other Vanguard for the Warlocks and Titans respectively, Osiris ditched his position to pursue knowledge in the Infinite Corridors and Saint went in after him. These are not wholly bad, but these are not good things either. Which is the point and the main crux of inner conflict for the Vanguard: are they responsible enough with the power they hold both as Lightbearers capable of more than any mortal can as well as holding a significant position in the Last City's government where they have to oversee both Guardians and normal humans?

[spiral crane]

I wouldn’t do that irl

That’s insane

[exotic cloak]

I know but I really like that dialogue

Like writers were not talking to the guardian, were talking to us

[chrome fog]

And further more, both the Vanguard and the leadership of all the other factions (save for the Vex really and a little bit the Hive) have to consider the interspecies politics between themselves and how their decisions to attack or ally with others - even independently and without consideration of tactical benefit - will impact their species interactions with the other species' in the future

[trim grotto]

@torn hazel Howdy!
This isn't a revival of whatever was going on earlier. Just a question.

In order to properly discuss and teach about the topic when I'm free in a few hours, I'll need to know what you know about Crow and his life, and Uldren and his life. Stuff like what you know of their characters, their respective histories, so on.
That way I can expand on topics that are relevant to you and keep it thorough and educational.

You can make it a DM if you'd prefer.

To anyone else reading this, there's no need for you to respond.

[trim grotto]

I'm going to throw an Athrys's knife at a nearby wall for it to then bounce and hit you a solid 15 seconds later

[exotic cloak]

We can find a cooler theme if you want

[dim minnow]

throw an Athrys's knife?
you can't those belong to her

[exotic cloak]

[shadow crypt]

What is the “Sword Logic” in simple terms?

[dim minnow]

kill something get stronger

[shadow crypt]

Who followed it?

[dim minnow]

the Hive

[exotic cloak]

And now us

And we do it better

[dim minnow]

eh

[trim grotto]

There's two sides. The power and the philosophy.
The power, granted by the Worms, is kill and get stronger.
The philosophy is kill, and make the universe and yourself stronger. If it died, it wasn't strong enough to live, and thus deserved to die.

[exotic cloak]

Okey

[smoky rose]

We follow bomb logic

Which is to say the sum of the components is greater than the parts

[shadow crypt]

Also another question

[dim minnow]

bomb logic is more about standing together strong

[smoky rose]

Well yes the bomb doesn’t work if the fuze isn’t there or breaks

[shadow crypt]

Was Ghalran the son of Calus?

[smoky rose]

No

[exotic cloak]

Sorry didn't ended Wicth story yet

[dim minnow]

no, just a clone made from the Royal Pools

[smoky rose]

Calus had one child, his daughter Caiatl

[exotic cloak]

His biggest shame

😔

[dim minnow]

though Calus did raid the graves of his loyal servants and relatives to get genetic material for the clones

so there is a chance

[shadow crypt]

And Calus wanted to see the power of the Crown of Sorrow and then decided to place it on Ghalran?

[smoky rose]

He made ghalran to wear it

Because he (rightfully) did not trust it

[dim minnow]

he made Gahlran for the sole purpose of having him wear the crown

[shadow crypt]

Ohh

[dim minnow]

Calus figured the Crown could be useful, but he knew it was a trap

[shadow crypt]

Set by Savathun?

[smoky rose]

Yes

[gentle geyser]

Not really

[smoky rose]

So the plan was for ghalran to be genetically strong enough to handle it

Spoiler alert he wasn’t

And we had to be called in to ice the problem

[gentle geyser]

I mean the fallen got completely fucked over by something out of their control and they are mad
The cabal are mostly allied with us

[shadow crypt]

Oh so that’s where the Crown of Sorrow raid comes in

[smoky rose]

Yes

[dim minnow]

didn't mean Namrask should have burned London down

[smoky rose]

Akilueks

Same eliksni ik

But it is worth diferentiating

[dim minnow]

yeah I just didn't remember how he spelled it

[dim minnow]

has to be this one, Mael is a big lore guy and his voice is very similar to byf's

[shadow crypt]

Did the Psions worship Nezarec at one point?

Before they got enslaved by the Cabal

[gentle geyser]

I mean, I’d be extremely pissed too, and once the first shot gets fired its all downhill because actions start getting justified

[exotic cloak]

Leviathan is just on orbit?

[dim minnow]

we know the Psions revered Nezarec at one point

[smoky rose]

Yes, although Nezarec's lore is still a bit mysterious

[jagged badge]

There are plenty of valid reasons to burn London down though

[exotic cloak]

I see it on the moon and as far I understand is supposed to be it's ruins but damn those are bigger than the moon itself

[dim minnow]

though specifics were never provided

[smoky rose]

Example A: It's london

[exotic cloak]

We need one?

[gentle geyser]

Wait, london is real?

[shadow crypt]

Nezarec is a mysterious person

[exotic cloak]

Nah was invented by the french

[gentle geyser]

Typical

[exotic cloak]

Muricans just appeared on land that about independence war is a lie

They literally spawned there

[torn hazel]

I don't know anything after Forsaken. All I was getting at that made everybody mad is I grew up with a brother who forgot who he was multiple tines and thought he was multiple different people and I think allowing him to have that going on and not bring back who he was (no matter how evil) is wrong and that him forgetting doesn't change reality and all of this still doesn't make me like Uldren/Crow. That's all

[jagged badge]

That sucks but that’s literally not the same situation as a Guardian’s resurrection at all

I don’t mean to sound rude but it feels like that’s making you biased here because you were refusing to listen to that when multiple people were telling you such

[torn hazel]

I won't deny that's true. Tbh I'm trying to quit smoking cold turkey because I can't afford it anymore and it has made me more emotional. I'm sorry

[exotic cloak]

No problem

[torn hazel]

I don't have much of a support group so I'm kinda going through it. That shouldn't be y'all's problem

[dim minnow]

smoking cold turkey?
pretty sure the turkey needs to be hot for that

[torn hazel]

It just means quitting suddenly without weening off. I don't know why we use that silly term, but we do 🤷‍♂️

That's funny though

[trim grotto]

That's fair. My only goal is to educate you on who they are, why they are that way, and the philosophical concepts that are explored and upheld by Destiny's characters and story.

[torn hazel]

I get it, I just think of it from a roleplay perspective and I couldn't see forgiving or pitying Crow, even it is the right thing to do. It's all pretty messed up for him too though actually

I guess really I should be mad at Riven and the taken for making him do it

[shadow crypt]

What is the “Y-Goblet”?

[chrome fog]

A goblet that’s a traditional item of worship for the Psions; through it, they gave offerings to their ancestors in return for certain blessings

[warm gazelle]

cold smoking actually is a thing

[chrome fog]

Comedy

Or wait

[warm gazelle]

???

it is

i have never tried it with turkey before, is probably okay though

[chrome fog]

Yeah that was my bad, I completely forget smoked ham slices and stuff exist which point to it being a thing

[white girder]

i find people of golden age is still stupid, still no interstellar colonies, or any fancy scifi stuff (ik this game is not a scifi franchise or really that focused in space, BUT STILL)

Also, when is there a second golden age????

[warm gazelle]

wdym no fancy scifi stuff, there's like a ton

check out the warminds

the golden age went on for centuries, but tbh why go through the effort of finding a distant planet in a far-away system when we haven't even finished colonizing Sol?

[dim minnow]

The haul, it turns out, is almost entirely composed of Golden Age astronomy equipment. Deep space scanners, detailed maps of arcologies, comets, space stations within the system—even a few outside it. Arrha has only ever heard of a few of these places, and he grew up devouring the tales of his ancestors' journeys after the Whirlwind. This haul is priceless.

there were at least some establishments outside the system

also keep in mind that the Traveler itself didn't exactly give humanity better tech

all it did was terraform several planets and moons in Sol

[warm gazelle]

actually

Are the methods behind the Eliksni, Hive, etc's FTL abilities ever explained?

Are they Alcubierre drives? I bet it's Alcubierre drives. Or maybe wormholes.

[white girder]

didn't trek and one more scifi series did that????

[warm gazelle]

uhhh I'm no Star Trek lore expert but didn't humanity discover FTL and such after their World War 3/basically their version of the Collapse? And that was with a lot of assistance from the Vulcans

Sorry I tried watching Star Trek: Enterprise that covers this material but it was just so bad I couldn't continue

[dim minnow]

I don't think they go into how Humanity/Eliksni/Cabal do it specifically, but I can explain Hive, Vex, and Awoken

so the Hive use the Ascendant Plane

the Ascendant Plane can be manipulated by the will of powerful beings and thus can be used to travel long distances in a shorter distance (or go through obstacles like in Defiant Battlegrounds)

though moving a lot of forces through the Ascendant Plane isn't easy, normally requiring a lot of power and specific rituals

the Vex just teleport or use gates

though it is explained that Vex teleport by "rewriting history" so that they are at a different location

as for the Awoken, they used Ley Lines (places between our world and Ascendant Plane) to travel in secret

I think it is similar to how Hive do things but with some differences

or it is at least in the same ballpark as them

[warm gazelle]

that kinda sounds like an alcubierre drive. alcubierre drive ships achieve pseudo-FTL by contracting space in front of themselves. they shift space around the ship so that they arrive more quickly than light would in normal space conditions

[dim minnow]

ok, so after some looking, it appears that Humanity didn't achieve FTL

but they did have NLS

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/nls-drive?highlight=nls

[warm gazelle]

I wonder if the Traveler's presence discouraged it. Like, why leave, when the miracle machine is right here?

[dim minnow]

well there was Project Amrita whose purpose was to establish colonies independent from the Traveler

which included the Yang Liwei aka the ship where the firstborn Awoken came from

huh, it also looks like that we use NLS drives on Sparrows

[warm gazelle]

Right, I just wonder if humanity had somehow achieved the level of technology they had in the Golden Age without the Traveler, would beyond-Sol space colonization have been more popular.

[warm gazelle]

I'm not surprised tbh we zip around the solar system pretty damn fast

[dim minnow]

well NLS isn't FTL, but it is still pretty fast

[warm gazelle]

Like, on average, Neptune is 4.3 billion kilometers from Earth

If you were traveling at exactly light speed, it would still take you almost 4 hours to get there.

[dim minnow]

hmmm

looks like I'm also getting "slipstream"

so I think we do have access to FTL

They slip between folds in space. Formless wake propels them. The ship rides through sub-space at speeds far exceeding her jump-drive's capability. Color dulls in the slipstream. Frisson electrifies Ana's senses into timeless euphoria. The nose of the cockpit stretches ahead, drawn toward some distant vanishing point. She struggles to keep the flight stick straight. Her motions seem small, inconsequential and all too slow within the wave. Fluctuant pockets of drag flex and buck, threatening to throw them off into the unknown. The cockpit twists around her, indicator lights blink in metronomic sequence—purpose and pigment slowly materializing in her mind.```

[smoky rose]

It doesn't make it intelligent

People would rather spend money exploiting what we have rather than investing in going interstellar

I mean look at IRL and the investment in space

And that's besides the fact that a rather large portion of the lore is centered around the fact that the collapse happend while we were in the process of sending extrasolar colony ships

[dim minnow]

granted we did have a few facilities beyond Sol

[warm gazelle]

Star Trek's humanity had the advantage of contact with (relatively) friendly alien life with more advanced technology and much more experience with interstellar travel and colonization. Extrasolar exploration was, naturally, more feasible in Trek land.

[dim minnow]

but that wasn't much

[warm gazelle]

And trade made it profitable too.

[bronze stone]

did i understand this correctly, Banshee is Clovis Bray? or a version of him?

[jagged badge]

Yes. He is Clovis Bray’s Exomind. Because Exos don’t have memories of their human lives, it was pretty much a blank slate start for him. Clovis-1 pretty much immediately tells the Clovis AI to piss off lmao

[bronze stone]

i see

[jagged badge]

He then expends 42 lives fighting the Vex on Europa

And finally Clovis-43 asks that he be manually reset, given the name Banshee and have his memories of Clovis removed

[bronze stone]

okay, thanks for the explanation :)

[chrome fog]

They were in the fucking middle of doing so, there are the numerous colony ships in the Cosmodrome as well as the various Exodus ships which are relevant to the narrative, particularly Exodus Green - which was just outside the Sol System and whose occupants became the first Awoken; Exodus Indigo - the colony ship which established Neomuna; and Exodus Black - landed on Nessus. There’s also the Braytech facilities on Europa and the Ishtar Collective structure on Venus. Rasputin has full reach across the entire Sol System.

Other feats of humanity during the Golden Age include tripling the average human life span, technology to scan and copy minds which then worked in tandem with advances in robotics to allow transference of a human mind into a new body.

As for a second Golden Age, we’re still in the middle of a conflict with multiple alien forces, with one sole major human settlement that we built after recovering from essentially medieval level civilization over a number of centuries, which we have. As of now, it is not the best time to be fully dedicating ourselves to technological innovation when we still haven’t reached the heights we got to in the Golden Age.

This complaint of sci-fi in Destiny not being advanced enough reads as nitpicky and insincere

[white girder]

thx for feedback 🙂

[empty fern]

[ember storm]

why didn’t humanity keep developing during the collapse are they stupid

they should’ve been on that grind

[empty fern]

“The homeless should just buy a house”

[exotic cloak]

Duh

[spiral crane]

In lore how powerful are the forces of the vanguard

Compared to the other factions

[empty fern]

So basically
Ikora
Zavala
Pretty powerful

Don’t know ironnlords situation or the 3 factions rn

[ember storm]

the forces of the vanguard include every guardian who works with them

so

[empty fern]

How powerful is destiny

[ember storm]

pop quiz

how fasts can ghosts fly

[empty fern]

Really fast? (You referencing the no name incident?)

[ember storm]

depends

I don’t know what no name means

[empty fern]

A man with no name? The ghost projectile one

[ember storm]

that’s drifter

[empty fern]

Ye

[ember storm]

just call him drifter

nerd

[empty fern]

No it wouldn’t be fancy

[ember storm]

The Man “Drifter, Germaine, Sad Rat Man Who Lives in Basement”With No Name

[empty fern]

The man with too many names

[exotic cloak]

The Man™

[empty fern]

Man

(I couldn’t find tm)

[warm gazelle]

that mf is nowhere near cool enough to take Clint Eastwood's namesake

[exotic cloak]

No no

Clint Eastwood is not cool enough to get Drifter's name

[chrome fog]

Drifter's pretty rad

[dusty jolt]

Agreed

[chrome fog]

Ironically I feel like he most closely resembles that old western archetype that Eastwood embodied, even with Shin Malphur being there; Drifter's a... drifter, a lone wanderer who's fine being friendly with others but he'd seen too much shit to really trust in anybody, he's constantly harangued with paranoia even from his first resurrection

He also gets the good ending where he finally learns to trust and that trust is returned back to him

[dusty jolt]

I ain't reading all that sorry

[jagged badge]

It’s not that many words at all

[dusty jolt]

Titan

There's not much more to explain

[chrome fog]

Shaxx is a Titan and memorized Tempest by Shakespeare. You can read too

[errant olive]

Someone took his crayons when he woke up, so henever shared his crayons with others, even though he compliments other's crayons and help them find their own. He's now learned to share crayons and have got many more crayons in return

[chrome fog]

More like he's been constantly scared of his crayons being taken away

[dusty jolt]

There's no difference

[dusty jolt]

Shaxx mixtape

[abstract pagoda]

https://youtu.be/tyQZb-4ryMA?si=9Mzr-WTg3ixogXrZ

Nearly an hour and a half lore video

I'm guessing there is a lot then

[empty fern]

Maybe it is
Maybe it isn’t

[tiny river]

Raid logic is an absolute atrocity, in dsc and kf oryx and taniks have 12.5m and 9.775m respectively and is said that eramis=taniks hence oryx mid-high diffs eramis💀

[exotic cloak]

Is just life bars

In game logic doesn't have and usually does not represent lore logic

I think everyone can understand House Of Salvation are a bunch of vengative losers and Oryx a fucking hive god

[chrome fog]

Actually no he gets a pass this time because we do have that other lorebook from FS CE

[warm gazelle]

KF Oryx could probably use more health though ngl.

He goes down pretty quick

[warm gazelle]

I do agree that Eramis is played up too much for how mid she is though

As far as final bosses go, pretty uninspiring

[tiny river]

The game quite literally is the fucking main lore source in d2 aside from bungie articles

[gentle geyser]

Thats not how that works

[exotic cloak]

Okey so let me start

[gentle geyser]

Like Taniks is not on par with people like Oryx and Rhulk

But gameplay wise he is

[exotic cloak]

are you telling me on crucible we literally enter fucking throne wolrds or planets taken by the darkness

[ember storm]

vastly different circumstances for both

and also gameplay wise you still need Oryx harvesting immense amounts of light and have to detonate them in his face to even scratch him

[tiny river]

For bungies sake😭😭😭

They too lazy to take the maps woth tje locations

Still pissed they took IO

[winged spear]

real

[exotic cloak]

we dont, lol, those are mere locations because crucible is just a game mode, we dont need them to be 100% lore accuarate

actually, that would be pretty annoying

cause more than half maps would be gone lol

[tiny river]

It was the closest think i had to grinding fatebringer kills in d1 mars

With cabal

[gentle geyser]

Destiny is already a game that imo uses lore to explain away gameplay stuff extremely well

[exotic cloak]

Actually by that logic gambit can just have two goddamn maps

[gentle geyser]

That doesn’t mean lore should be in control of what is and is not gameplay

[exotic cloak]

Game cant be just be inconsistent with lore every time it wants but there are minimuns

[tiny river]

My favorite logic is the fact we have never gotten a ingame map for saturn

Literally just kingsfall going on in saturn

[exotic cloak]

A lot of things would be pretty stupid or annoying if everything was 100% lore accuarate

[gentle geyser]

Whos gonna tell him

[exotic cloak]

Ask these guys here they know more random dark lore facts than I

[tiny river]

Idk if i can remember d1 fully but i dont remember saturn being a ingame map like edz and titan

[warm gazelle]

??? We do actually go to the places we fight in the Crucible

They're secured by the Vanguard, intentionally close to potential dangers so they can be nearby if shit goes down.

[gentle geyser]

Kings fall isn’t on Saturn, its next to Saturn

Saturn is a gas giant

[tiny river]

I barely know the lore so thx ig

[warm gazelle]

yeah King's Fall is on a ship

[tiny river]

Deadass, the only lore ive been invested in d2 is witchqueen

And red war some

[exotic cloak]

You are telling me that some planets were just taken by the darkness but vnaguard and drifter casually have a prepared space for us to fight there

[gentle geyser]

Reminds me of that time when starfield launched and there was some reviewer or dude on twitter that was complaining about not being able to actually go to the planets in the distance and his photo evidence was of a gas giant

[tiny river]

Tbh now that we are discussing outer belt planets, id be funny if final shape takes place in pluto

[gentle geyser]

^

[tiny river]

I dont think pluto is a gas giant cuh

[gentle geyser]

Not what I meant

[tiny river]

[gentle geyser]

You should really go back and watch the final shape trailers

[warm gazelle]

That's what Redjacks are designed to do. Secure potential Crucible sites.

Honestly it doesn't make much sense to me either but apparently that is the lore.

[tiny river]

I just did and im still confused

[gentle geyser]

The dreg rolling up on 8 guardians

[warm gazelle]

Cuz yeah some of the places Crucible maps are in are kind of crazy.

[gentle geyser]

Im assuming you have been completely out of the loop on story stuff since witch queen

The traveler is the new destination for final shape

[tiny river]

Now im confised how that makes logical sense

[gentle geyser]

Should’ve played lightfall

[tiny river]

Not that

[gentle geyser]

Or watched a recap

[tiny river]

But how the map wpuld fit

[jagged badge]

The ending of Lightfall saw the Witness navigate a portal into the Traveler’s Pale Heart. We’ve spent the entire year since seeking to follow it

[jagged badge]

It doesn’t need to. It’s not a physical interior of the shell

[warm gazelle]

tbh the d2 worldspaces aren't that big

[tiny river]

Ahh, i was confused bc of the cutscene in witch queen of the traveler's size compared to the last city

[solar pawn]

it is called ✨ destiny logic✨

[jagged badge]

If anything it’s Doctor Who logic

Or Mary Poppins logic

[exotic cloak]

Okey thats pretty much worse than "is just game is doesnt have to be lore accurate everytime"

Now im dissapointed, simulations excuse was way better, anyway, thanks for explaining that

[jagged badge]

What, no?

It’s a way better explanation that the Crucible is Guardians in live fire exercises where they literally perish and just resurrect than them just using simulations

[exotic cloak]

Eris Im not talking about that

[gentle geyser]

Honestly I always just used the head canon that anything that wasn’t a last city map were the non canon ones

[chrome fog]

Game mechanics do not always translate into something explainable by lore. For example, we do not literally reenact raids and dungeons multiple times and go through their scenarios over and over again for the exotic or the armor or the weapons; in lore, we only go in once and that is it. Same with a majority of Strikes, though some are canonically repeated.

[gentle geyser]

The redjacks on their way to entering and securing a vex network just to have an imbalanced match of 3v3 pvp

[exotic cloak]

Im saying is better explanation that crucible maps that are on sites that are hard to access or directly we cant access make more sense to be simulations, you can just add a Shaxx idle dialogue "crucible simulations are having some trouble lately" and by that you justified that and also made a comment that can refer to bugs

And with that maps of zones we actually can access are pure battles and planets that are lost or simply not convenient for battle are simulations

[warm gazelle]

There's probably been a ton of Crucible matches that were interrupted because some Hive Ogre or some other really bad thing happened to be nearby.

[gentle geyser]

Can’t wait for the witness throne room pvp map

[exotic cloak]

Yeah

Considering some maps are on Throne Worlds

And others literally on the actual base of our enemies

Or very close

[chrome fog]

This would also track with the Lighthouse being the place where Trials players receive their rewards for completing a card, as well as the various mentions by Shaxx and Saint like you have highlighted

[tiny river]

Fair, raid logic is even weirder so who's to say

[solar pawn]

i like raid logic :}

[exotic cloak]

I really like this logic though

Taniks and Atraks being at the level of gods

And Eramis and the rest of the crew being just a bunch of incompetents

I mean, more

[dim minnow]

to be fair, Taniks and Atraks got that way purely by Crypt technology

before DSC, Taniks was strike level

and we never even had the chance to fight Atraks before she became an Exo and given that we were able to beat the rest of Eramis' council single-handedly, I doubt she would have fared any better

[exotic cloak]

True

[dim minnow]

also worth noting that Taniks himself was most likely strike level previously because he was already heavily augmented

[exotic cloak]

SIVA does wonders

But considering that he killed a Vanguard member before

Well that would another example of what I was saying

Gameplay and lore being not consistent with each other sometimes, or maybe it is and the vanguard is at strike level

[dim minnow]

"We went down there as a squad of nine"

[warm gazelle]

TFS will end with Taniks one-shotting the Witness

[solar pawn]

i just love this very random coversations outta nowhere

[exotic cloak]

That's how this channel works and I love it

[lyric karma]

what happened to savathun after season of the witch end?

[ember storm]

https://youtu.be/KXzV-_-SsDE?si=NI26GEg7LRGB7FpR

living it up in her throne world, as much as she can

[lyric karma]

so basically she got respawned and thrown back in her throne world?

[ember storm]

hunkering down with Immaru in the vanguard’s possession as a token of accountability

[lyric karma]

After getting her throat cut by eris

[ember storm]

not like she’d be doing anything anyway

[ember storm]

all she needed was to take the stored power through sword logic

[chrome fog]

As well as Saint killing her multiple times

[simple depot]

Saint killed Savathun multiple times?

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/proportionality

[simple depot]

You're a legend thank you

Wow he thrashed her

[spiral crane]

What’s the lore behind the vex

[dim minnow]

the best source we got to go off is known to be highly allegorical

but I still think there is truth to it

according to Unveiling, the Vex were these patterns made to dominate the Universe, reducing it down to a Final Shape

these patterns originating from a "Garden" which could be the Black Garden

so at some point, the patterns escape from the Garden due to a conflict that left said Garden in ruin

then these patterns evolved to be carried into Radiolaria and were broguth to various planets via comets

[spiral crane]

So they’re as old as the traveler

[dim minnow]

possibly

or a bit younger

hell they could technically not even be created yet

given how the Black Garden works

[spiral crane]

What is the black garden

[dim minnow]

you know the place you go to for the Garden fo Salvation raid or Starcrossed exotic mission?

[spiral crane]

I’ve barley started playing destiny so no I don’t lol

[dim minnow]

basically an alternate reality

stated to be the birthplace/origin of the Vex

the first time we went there in the previous game, we destroyed a powerful entity known as the Black Garden's Heart which was poisoning the Traveler

[warm gazelle]

and it's still the prettiest place in the game

[chrome fog]

Translating from allegory to what is being literally suggested, it can be assumed they're a theoretical "ultimate lifeform" following the Darwinian theory of Evolution; they are all connected via the Vex Network, they fully understand and then break all conventional rules of physics, and their substance is memetic, meaning they grow and spread through Radiolaria and there is nothing that can be done to really reverse the transformation process

[shadow crypt]

How were the Vex created and where are they from?

[dim minnow]

their origin point can be tied to the Black Garden

as for how they were created...

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dim minnow]

according to Unveiling, the Gardener (presumed to be a metaphor for the Traveler) and the Winnower (another metaphor which is related to the Darkness [possibly meant to represent the Witness' ideals though Entelechy confirms that the Witness itself diverged from it]) both played a "game" that was based off of Conway's game of life

the game always ended with a singular pattern dominating the field until everything died out

then that winnign pattern would live in the Garden

and as stated, there was a conflict that forced them to escape into our universe where they would evolve into the Vex as we know them

you know, I'm kind of under the idea that the Garden mentioned in Unveiling is the Black Garden

[chrome fog]

That game being extrapolated to reflect existence as a whole - somewhat inverse to the original intention with Conway’s game of life - is what gives us the suggestion that the Gardener and Winnower are creator gods of the universe

However, it cannot be reinforced enough that Unveiling is a biased perspective into the origins of reality, as it comes directly from the Witness who was most likely telling us the contents of Unveiling in order to persuade us into following its example

[dim minnow]

we know that Unveiling is mainly allegorical and full of metaphors, but we also see several direct connections to it

specifically, connections regarding the Vex

[chrome fog]

I’m more of the perspective that the Black Garden is a paracausal simulated recreation of the Garden both built using the Black Heart as well as made to house the Black Heart

[dim minnow]

a simulation built by who though?

I don't think it could have been the Vex

[chrome fog]

Maybe if they were instructed by the Witness? Or if Unveiling was correct about one part, that they actually are from the Garden and that is a best approximation from their memory of it, though that would conflict with their struggle to grasp Paracausality if they came from a place such as the Garden filled with that energy

[dim minnow]

as far as I'm aware, the Vex found the BGH in the Garden

[chrome fog]

If I were to use further allegory to explain how that latter option could be possible, it could be like a programmed mob of a game being unable to comprehend when a player or developer is in creative/god-mode

[chrome fog]

But if that’s the case, why didn’t the Witness continue through the Black Garden and wait to find the Veil and connect it back to the Traveler, when supposedly the portal on the Traveler also leads to the Garden?

[dim minnow]

Pale Heart probably isn't the Garden

[chrome fog]

Or maybe if that is the case, the Vex are only able to access a portion of the Garden that we explore and can see within the Black Garden, but where the Witness needs to go to enact its plans is a different portion of the Garden

[dim minnow]

to me, the Pale Heart looks more like a sort of "record" of the universe

or like a collection of the Traveler's memories

[chrome fog]

A sort of Throneworld maybe, but not in the conventional sense

[dim minnow]

maybe a Light one

Mara Sov proved that a Throne World could be made with Light and Savathun put it in practice

Pale Heart could possibly be a fully realised one

[chrome fog]

I mean yes, I follow that same conclusion gathered from the Akashic Revelation lore tab; I think where I’m drawing my perspective of the Garden and the Pale Heart being the same is that, the recorded previous iterations of the universe (as the actual Akashic Records are purported to contain) could just be those previous worlds themselves, though it still faces the same issue of this being purely conjecture based on how little we’re given

[ember ginkgo]

quick question: Why does Xur serve the horse from Borderlands 2

[chrome fog]

Fair, but also I don’t feel like that’s necessarily indicative of what the Pale Heart is aside from a record of what came before, though that could be because I’m viewing the Ascendent Plane as a mix of both Light and Darkness, drawing this from Mara’s own insistence that she is much more powerful for dabbling Beyond the Light - even before that expansion

[ember ginkgo]

like where did that come from? was that at all built up to? or did it show up

[chrome fog]

It’s Bungie, not the horse made of diamond that poops out guns

Starhorse is just a stand in for Bungie

[ember ginkgo]

(oh shit Bionicle mentioned)

[chrome fog]

And Dares and all that 30th anniversary content save for Grasp is canonically noncanon, as it’s physically separated from what’s happening in the Destiny universe

[ember ginkgo]

[chrome fog]

Pog, another Bionicle fan

[ember ginkgo]

ahh i see tyty

[dim minnow]

I think the 30th anniversary stuff is canon tbh

[ember ginkgo]

well in that case, what happened to "The Nine" he keeps muttring about

[chrome fog]

It's canon in purposefully separated way, as in you fly into whatever singularity is housing Dares and what not, and then pop out with weapons and stuff but other than that nothing else has major impact on the narrative

[chrome fog]

Separate thing; they loaned him out to Starhorse

[ember ginkgo]

interesting ty

[chrome fog]

The Nine themselves are moreso just sentient clouds of space dust, whose sentience and livelihood depend on the continued movement of the Sol System and it's celestial bodies as well as the sentient life preoccupying it

[ember ginkgo]

have they ever been addressed in the story? like a cutscene and stuff?

[chrome fog]

Eh somewhat

They're responsible for the Trials of the Nine - a replacement for Trials of Osiris in Vanilla D2 before Osiris made a come back and so did Saint - as well as the Prophecy dungeon

[ember ginkgo]

were they chill?

[dim minnow]

eh