📚lore-discussion

[chrome fog]

Through visions in which she communicates to others on the rare occassion

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torn hazel]

I thought I was down bad

[vital lodge]

some loser said the front of the cloth is caused by the statue having 4 arms

[torn hazel]

Ada my beloved

[chrome fog]

Hmm I could see that

[jagged badge]

The best voices don’t allow themselves to be heard

[vital lodge]

Heretic speak

[jagged badge]

Or something or other

[vital lodge]

thats why everyone hears me

[vital lodge]

broken logic tho

considering how singing works

anyway

the speaker

"I speak for the traveler, I never said it spoke to me" was dude just wantin that luxury life

[torn hazel]

It's saying you think instead of talk

[vital lodge]

loser mindset

speak and then think

[ember storm]

no

he was by all accounts what he said he was

a speaker with the ability to hear the traveler, as all others

[chrome fog]

He was trying to maintain a pretty important social role for the Last City; prior to the Collapse, there had been Speakers before, and they had been key in guiding humanity

[vital lodge]

but he said the traveler doesnt speak to him

[ember storm]

difference is after the collapse the traveler was “asleep”

[torn hazel]

Want some crayons to munch, Marine

[ember storm]

before this, the traveler would send direct messages

[vital lodge]

Titan

I aint no marine

[trim grotto]

The Speaker heard broken dreams and visions from the Traveler. Back in the Golden Age, they really did speak for her. In modern times, when she was comatose, it was a different story.

[ember storm]

the speaker had the gift but it was sleeping

[chrome fog]

Sometimes you don't need something to speak to you to know what it wants you to do; similar to irl, sometimes you gotta have Faith

[ember storm]

he could only hear ambient thoughts the traveler wasn’t completely intending on sending anyone

[vital lodge]

oh, the traveler shut up after getting smacked by the witness?

[trim grotto]

Something like that.

[torn hazel]

Same thing

[ember storm]

something something Savathun did some trolling and then the traveler made ghosts

[vital lodge]

I am not a religios man

[chrome fog]

Sup mael my back hurts specifically on my right side

[trim grotto]

That is specific

[vital lodge]

which makes me the most annoying person to explain lore too, as I need universe based evidence

[chrome fog]

Then that'll make it harder to illustrate, as the relationship between a Speaker and the Traveler is very much a spiritual and somewhat religious one, which has been a point of criticism against the Speaker and the Vanguard

[ember storm]

I mean it’s not really religion

[vital lodge]

so the traveler is just a god, above all others

other than the darkness

[ember storm]

the traveler would hate for you to see it that way

[vital lodge]

so the light is from the traveler, where is the darkness from

[ember storm]

sears

[vital lodge]

they shut down

[chrome fog]

She's... not really god, not unless we wholeheartedly believe Unveiling (which we shouldn't); she is more so a benevolent entity which bestows Light to other races in hope that they will be responsible and use their new found power to uplift themselves as well as other species

[vital lodge]

a being that can create life on a whim and cause immortality

[chrome fog]

Light and Darkness exist sparingly across the universe, though it seems Darkness is more easily accessible

[vital lodge]

me in middle school frfr

[torn hazel]

The Veil, right?

[chrome fog]

As a last resort; as unreliable Unveiling is in giving us straight facts about the universe, it very much reflects the Traveler's own mindset and goals in regards to her actions

[vital lodge]

is it?

what even is the veil

[chrome fog]

Eeehhhh

[empty fern]

I wonder

[ember storm]

big funny mushroom

[vital lodge]

I did an 8 part story about the veil, and never learned what the veil was

[empty fern]

Venetia you lurking rn?

[ember storm]

melds consciousnesses together

[chrome fog]

An entity connected to the Traveler, however we don't really know much about the Veil itself, just what it does

[heavy vortex]

Yes

[vital lodge]

all I care about

[chrome fog]

Ooof, Ven's playing DD2

[vital lodge]

is how to put the veil into a gun

[empty fern]

Fukin knew it

Carry on

[vital lodge]

final shape were getting a traveler trace rifle

wheres my Veil weapon

[empty fern]

Yep, devs said it themselves

[chrome fog]

Strand

[torn hazel]

Strand rounds

[vital lodge]

lets use rohans core to make a rocket launcher with the veil

[chrome fog]

But nah, Strand is a separate thing from the Veil

[vital lodge]

we can use nimbus for the parts

[ember storm]

rude

[vital lodge]

would make him more helpful

[chrome fog]

*they

[vital lodge]

dont start

[torn hazel]

You respect the dead

[ember storm]

correct word would be them actually

[vital lodge]

Rohan would likely love to be a grenade for justice

[torn hazel]

Naw he wanted to rest

That's why he sacrificed himself

[ember storm]

not really

[vital lodge]

bro gave that spiderman sigh

[ember storm]

he was like literally a month or two away from retirement

[chrome fog]

We've had this issue before and it has not ended well; it's better to refer to Nimbus with proper pronouns please actually you seem nice and it would be a shame for you to get banned

[ember storm]

he just gave himself up for the greater good

[vital lodge]

"only a week till retirement"

jinxed it

[ember storm]

yknow

like a good person

[vital lodge]

I respect pronouns. Nimbus alone is a special case

[chrome fog]

Retirement in this case meaning dying due to his cybernetics, as is the nature with Cloudstrider augments

[torn hazel]

Their retirement us dying and he definitely seemed ready

[ember storm]

yeah see that’s just like fucking weird

and not appreciated

at all

[vital lodge]

blame the VA

[ember storm]

I blame you for your own actions, actually

[vital lodge]

thats fine, but you know my reasons

[chrome fog]

Yea, it is a shame they didn't really take their voicing direction in the right way; still that isn't an excuse

[ember storm]

you can consume destiny content without having to interact with any voice actor

[vital lodge]

im not talking about the acting quality

[ember storm]

how many people even know Ikora had her casting replaced

[vital lodge]

yeah, but knowing what the VA does kinda sours the character

[torn hazel]

On a different note about their voice I think the VA would make a great Bumblebee. Reminds me of how the character was in the Cybertron games

[vital lodge]

Bumblebee is silent tho

other than beeps

[torn hazel]

I did. Immediately. Hate it

[chrome fog]

With the exotic quest for the Void LMG, it really felt like they could've had them be much more distraught and sad, like genuinely coping with the loss of their mentor by continuing their research

[vital lodge]

I didnt, Ikora is the queen of yappin when im messing with my builds

[chrome fog]

Real

[jagged badge]

Pretty sure I know what you might be referring to and just don’t

[vital lodge]

exactly

[torn hazel]

That's because Michael Bay is an idiot who made a movie about a franchise he hadn't yet seen

[chrome fog]

He SPEAKS outside of Bayverse, this is FALSE

[vital lodge]

i prefer squeaky bee

[jagged badge]

?

[ember storm]

the transformers movies are the last thing I want to talk about right now

[vital lodge]

you already know my reasons, I dont need to go further

[ember storm]

especially considering the channel this is

[chrome fog]

(I think it's cool but it's very much soured by where Bay took the franchise after 3)

[vital lodge]

Bays animation you gotta admit aged wonderfully

[torn hazel]

Thank you!

[chrome fog]

IDW1 Bee is pretty cool

[torn hazel]

Fine

[chrome fog]

Anyways lore

[torn hazel]

Can I hop in your dm to continue Transformers talk?

[chrome fog]

Sure, but in all honesty I'm slightly lacking in knowledge with transformers lore, though I've got a good deal of it down

[torn hazel]

Eh now that I think about it I think I was done talking about it anyway

We fully derailed the channel lmao

[vital lodge]

and my moods soured so im not lookin for lore rn

[chrome fog]

To cover what we just went over: Traveler is a she, very much a power deity but does not assert her power over others because she sees it as babying us, though she's very hopeful that we choose to help one another ("we" and "another" being the various species of the universe), she'd been dormant since the Collapse until Red War, and then finally reformed herself and has begun being more active since Arrivals (right before Beyond Light); she is the source of paracausal Light, though that does not necessarily mean Darkness is the same in.

[torn hazel]

That's so motherly

[chrome fog]

Uh, Rohan should be left in his memorial block thing for Cloudstriders because it'd be very disrespectful to use his core for something else when like the whole point is that they are laid to rest after their service, Nimbus is kinda dumb but it's not their fault, it's mostly issues with production of their stuff; the Veil is an entity connected to the Traveler but aside from how it affects reality by thinning it so that we can interact and see the Weave - a sort of psychic fabric which connects everything, also closely tied to the electromagnetic spectrum due to styling of Strand and uh other stuff - as well as being a big source of Darkness itself, though it is not the sole source of Darkness... I think

Hmm

[vital lodge]

do we know if Bungie made lettingo or not?

[torn hazel]

Since other people can't see it our enemies must have no idea how they died

[chrome fog]

Aside from the Worms and ahamkara, all Darkness that we've encountered is in some what derived from the Veil - since the Witness civilization also discovered Darkness in studying the Veil; however, it's not a source of Darkness in much the way the Traveler is the source of Light. We can access Darkness without really relying on the Veil, and it's not connected to solely the Pyramids or the Witness either, otherwise we would be under the Witness' thrall

[trim grotto]

They did not.

[chrome fog]

Thanks Mael

[vital lodge]

so someone got ahold of bungies plans before hand?

[trim grotto]

No.

It was fanmade. Just fanmade very well.

[vital lodge]

then how did they have the Tricorn and such

[trim grotto]

Because it had, in fact, been released prior to that.

[vital lodge]

I thought the video was before Destinys announcement

[trim grotto]

It was before the primary announcements

[vital lodge]

so Destiny was known before it was announced?

[trim grotto]

I don't recall 100% of the details off the top of my head. But I know one of the people who worked on it. It's fanmade, so I don't much care about it further than that.

[jagged badge]

They can see Strand. They couldn’t perceive the concentrations of the Weave that we could

[vital lodge]

one of the people who worked on destiny, or the video?

[trim grotto]

The video.

[vital lodge]

oh so we do know who the creator is

[torn hazel]

That's disappointing

[vital lodge]

suddenly

death

[torn hazel]

@trim grotto is your server name supposed to be your character's name? Just curious out of nowhere lol

I feel like it's just an npc I don't know and I'm about to look stupid

[chrome fog]

It’s his character, don’t worry too much

[vital lodge]

my guardian is named What-11123

[torn hazel]

I was gonna say I gave my hunter a name too. Well a first name, I don't remember the last name anymore because I had the idea so long ago

Damn you got your mind wiped 11123 times

[vital lodge]

it gets wiped every time I ask the word What without a sentence

[torn hazel]

[vital lodge]

and is then redownloaded from the latest backup

cuz im smart and made my own server

B]

one may ask

"that seems uncanon"

but youd be wrong

[torn hazel]

Alright so anyway on a serious note my Hunter's name is Aleksandr. He's Russian, obviously

[vital lodge]

on a serious note I didnt name mine

tho

if I did

[trim grotto]

It did actually exist on Europa. A cloud storage for Exominds that was regularly updated. It was shut down during the Vex Exo War.

[vital lodge]

Sahm Snadihc

is her name

[torn hazel]

Whoa

That sounds like a good name but I still feel like you're setting up a joke

[vital lodge]

idk, all my guardians are women, I cant exactly relate to them

I just didnt wanna look at men every time I use a super

[torn hazel]

Why do you say these things

[vital lodge]

Nord VPN

[trim grotto]

I like to shorten it to the Vexo War. But no, it's real.

[vital lodge]

Vexxo?

somebody get me an Alex the lion meme

[chrome fog]

This is actually a reason why the wipes are a thing, Clovis would wipe any Exos who do too deep into his experiment practices

[torn hazel]

No I meant funny man here

[vital lodge]

What

crap

11124

anyway nah

[torn hazel]

Christ

[vital lodge]

the 11123 is a joke back to my old account names when I was younger

[chrome fog]

And also dying regularly

[vital lodge]

relatable

so

are all Exo old?

[chrome fog]

Oh, do you know the highest reset number

[vital lodge]

its like 2700 isnt it?

[chrome fog]

Yes; Ada-1 would technically be the youngest Exo

[vital lodge]

so there are no longer new exo being made

meaning they will go extint

[torn hazel]

I don't imagine most people could afford so many backups unlike Clovis

[vital lodge]

or can they reproduce?

[chrome fog]

They cannot reproduce biologically

[vital lodge]

Damn

a shame

[chrome fog]

Rule 3, be careful

[vital lodge]

I am

[torn hazel]

It says she's a prototype exo. I thought she was one of the oldest and so how avoided the wipes

[torn hazel]

But they can "not reproduce" if you know what I'm saying in code

[chrome fog]

She was special made by the Black Forge Armory, she’s the daughter off of the house heads

[torn hazel]

Right?

[torn hazel]

Oh that's cool

[vital lodge]

heh... heads... cuz hes a giant head

[chrome fog]

They can procreate, yes

[torn hazel]

Knowing she's a rich girl makes me like her less actually. Not by much tho

[vital lodge]

who designed exos

like who made the system

[torn hazel]

I don't know why I asked. It's cursed knowledge, but I had to have it

[vital lodge]

were they just meant to be entirely human but made with mechanics?

thats the only reason I can think of for them to be... detailed

[torn hazel]

Did someone say they had biological parts earlier or did they mean like synthetic organs?

[vital lodge]

I assume internals are machine like.

[torn hazel]

Sorta the same question we asked isn't it

[vital lodge]

do they even need food?

[torn hazel]

I know this one

[vital lodge]

Cayde likes Tacos so

[torn hazel]

No, they do it for enjoyment

[jagged badge]

They don’t physically need it but they psychologically need it

[vital lodge]

internal incinerator for food.

[dull raft]

More or less to make them feel human

[vital lodge]

the human brain wants food?

[torn hazel]

They don't need food, but they still like it and can eat it

[dull raft]

The most inhuman thing is that they won't have issues after taco bell or chipotle

[jagged badge]

They need to be as close to human as possible so that the brain doesn’t experience intense dysphoria that makes them feel as if they are dead in a foreign body

[vital lodge]

I dont have issues with them

yall got weak stomachs

[vital lodge]

so thats why they are fully "detailed" ?

so the brain isnt like

[torn hazel]

What if they're realistic enough that they do?

[vital lodge]

"WHERE IS IT"

[dull raft]

Afaik an exo doesnt need to shit so

[vital lodge]

portal stomach

thats why we dont go to the old tower anymore

[torn hazel]

That's something I thought about. Pretty common dystopian cyberpunk future theme

[vital lodge]

cyberpunk 2077 has some interesting lore when it comes to the robotics

[torn hazel]

I imagine it's like Altered Carbon or that's what they're trying to avoid

[vital lodge]

nanomachines son

[torn hazel]

Huh

[vital lodge]

its a quote

[torn hazel]

But what brought it on?

[vital lodge]

robotic materials

[torn hazel]

That's acceptable

[vital lodge]

who is space grandma anyway? just an old lady who likes sports events?

[torn hazel]

They're all "downloaded" consciousness, not actual human brains in a robot body though, right? I'm wondering how often there are unique ones or if it's never

[torn hazel]

Tbf that sounds like my actual grandma so

Grandma loves baseball

[vital lodge]

urs isnt from space

[chrome fog]

They were meant to be wholly mechanical, but Clovis discovered that slamming a human consciousness into a hunk of metal with no human sensations tends to drive the mind insane and cause the Exo to tear itself apart, as happened to his son Clovis II with Elsie as a little child watching with Clovis Sr

[torn hazel]

How do you know?

[vital lodge]

im in ur walls

[vital lodge]

why didnt clovid go insane from being a head

[jagged badge]

He isn’t

The head is an AI imitation of Clovis

[vital lodge]

ah

[jagged badge]

Clovis’ Exo went on to become Banshee-44

[torn hazel]

Clean up and kill the rats while you're in there

[vital lodge]

wait he named his son Clobis

Clovis*

[chrome fog]

Because that’s an AI based on a mindscan of og Clovis

[jagged badge]

He’s egotistical like that

[dull raft]

Clovis' entire arc is sheer ego incarnate

[vital lodge]

and Rasputin is just an AI right?

[torn hazel]

Christ

[dull raft]

He wanted to make himself... what was it, a LUCA? Last Universal Common Ancestor or something like that

[chrome fog]

Hol up, wifi in this building is jank

[jagged badge]

[jagged badge]

[vital lodge]

how strong was he

[dull raft]

My brain can actually handle destiny lore, hot damn

[chrome fog]

He details it in his journal, which was i think web lore from the Bungie site, as well as some stuff from Collector’s Edition

[vital lodge]

on a scale of Shaw Han to Traveler

[dull raft]

I thought the gambit brainrot emptied my brain

[jagged badge]

Very. Rasputin’s arsenal was vast and highly destructive

[torn hazel]

I thought most if not all were mind scans

[jagged badge]

Unfortunately, it’s useless against the Black Fleet

[vital lodge]

Traveler destroying strong?

why

[jagged badge]

We don’t really know

[torn hazel]

I meant how'd he know my grandma isn't from space

[vital lodge]

I figured it was since bungie made it a giant plot to turn him off

[chrome fog]

If you’re talking about Rasputin, he could fuckin lay down fire like the best of the Helldiver fleet, but he got fucking bodied by the Pyramids when he tried to fire on them; he barely survived before Ana Bray put him in an engram

[vital lodge]

sucks, he was one of the few who still enjoyed opera

[jagged badge]

That was certainly Clovis’ intention. And the Witness seemed to be wanting Eramis to attempt to use the Warsats on the Traveler too

But we don’t really know if it would have had an effect I believe

[vital lodge]

ah, Witness wooped his asss?

[chrome fog]

Space Grandma is from Last City, it still has normal mortal people in it like Eris before her First Rez

[vital lodge]

all memory is lost on revival right?

why can we speak, walk and such

[chrome fog]

Pyramid ships specifically, it was during Arrivals’ opening cutscene where we see him try to attack the Pyramids and the. The bunker in the EDZ shakes and Zavala and Ana book it

[dull raft]

More or less the pyramids knocked him out completsly because of their funny paracausality iirc

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm where’s that Cayde quote

[vital lodge]

got a link to a vid of it?

[torn hazel]

It was a joke about my actual grandmother. Nevermind

[vital lodge]

the age old, machine vs magic

for all I car

the last city is a hologram used to keep guardians in high spirits

[chrome fog]

https://youtu.be/k17w-hJjQ4E?si=J1_WCejp6JD963QO

[vital lodge]

Bungo aint let me go down there

[chrome fog]

My b, I am about to go into class and just got to campus

[torn hazel]

All good. Easy to miss comments

[vital lodge]

yo muss

[jagged badge]

My brain works, but I don't remember a thing 'cept that I seem to be a functioning life form—I'm human, I'm a man. And then my mind starts reeling a thousand miles a minute. BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. Like I'm downloading the 'Idiot's Guide to Basic Human Existence.' Cool. Great.

[torn hazel]

Stfu Savathun's seat

[vital lodge]

you dare use my job title against me

[torn hazel]

I do indeed

[chrome fog]

Another fun fact about Clovis: he has a genetic disease which gradually made his organs fail as one of its symptoms, so he regularly grew new ones in pigs, cut the pigs open and then implant the new organs once his current ones ran out

[vital lodge]

love the detail in this cutscene that it shows the traveler and the moon, took me a second

[vital lodge]

why do machine overlords always have a disease

[chrome fog]

Because they see their flesh as weakness which it technically is for them

[torn hazel]

That explains the quest for immortality. I just thought he was a true Sith Lord

[vital lodge]

Rasputin sounds like Regigigas sometime

[torn hazel]

I see it that way too times, but I got two bad arms and a leg so that's why

[vital lodge]

wait

did that pyramid erase a planet

[chrome fog]

Teleported actually

[vital lodge]

to where

[chrome fog]

And yes, four of them

[vital lodge]

and why

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vital lodge]

ah wait

lemme guess

to free storage space on players playstations?

why did the pyramid vanish when they shot it?

[chrome fog]

That’s the irl reason, yes, jank in the game needed to be removed before they implanted the reworked lighting system and everything else that came with Beyond Light

For lore, they were going to Take the entire system and work up to the Traveler, but the Traveler reformed her shell and blasted them all away before they could encroach any further

[vital lodge]

they never did compensate players.

but yeah why did the rasputin thing show the ship destroyed

and how many planets does he cover

[chrome fog]

I would go into more detail about sunsetting and everything but I’m honestly pretty pooped and vanilla is already free and they’ve stopped doing so already

[vital lodge]

and why did rasputin explode

[vital lodge]

thats raids, and strikes

[chrome fog]

The Pyramid Ships have the ability to cause natural disasters such as massive earthquakes and devastating tidal waves (hmmmm like what the worm familiar said would happen to Fundament); they cafuckled Rasputin’s shit because he’s still a giant mass of wires and cables and computers

[vital lodge]

why do the pyramids listen to the witness

[jagged badge]

;dcv

[candid inlet]

Destiny Content Vault [(DCV)](#1019968437847593051 message)
Starting November 10, 2020 old content was vaulted because Bungie updated the scripting engine. All activities had to be re-coded and ported over. Content with low playtime (Spire of Stars, Levithan, etc.) was vaulted to save resources and time.

Note: In the 2022 Destiny 2 Showcase, Bungie announced they will no longer vault/sunset Expansions. Seasonal activities will still leave at the end of a Content Year. We do not currently know if Packs (Forsaken/30th Anniversary) or Dungeon Key Dungeons will eventually enter the DCV.

• DCV Guide courtesy of Bree.
• Bungie's Guide/Article with full description, along with a list of content vaulted.

[vital lodge]

wack

who said that? Bungie?

[jagged badge]

Yes

[vital lodge]

"we looked into ourselves, what we did was right"

sounds like something blizzard would do

[jagged badge]

They’ve reiterated multiple times about how bringing back vaulted content requires the full work to recode and “port” it into the game

[chrome fog]

They’re not wholly sapient on their own, though they can act independently; otherwise they are just highly advanced and paracausal space ships controlled by it

[jagged badge]

[vital lodge]

so the witness made

living ships

[jagged badge]

Nothing there talks about right or wrong

[vital lodge]

sorry lemme reword

[jagged badge]

It just says the facts of what happened

And why it needed to happen

[vital lodge]

"you all asked why we stole your money so heres the reason we came up with that works as an excuse"

[jagged badge]

[vital lodge]

"no refunds"

[jagged badge]

Don’t start

[vital lodge]

lighting engine or not

thats theft

[chrome fog]

Also most of that content was released under Activision’s ownership

Moving on

[jagged badge]

You aren’t the first one to try rant about the DCV and unfortunately you won’t be the last

[chrome fog]

From both of you

[jagged badge]

But we don’t need it

[vital lodge]

I didnt even own them and I see its bad

[chrome fog]

Move on

[vital lodge]

ill find somebody to talk about it at some point

[jagged badge]

Drop it already

[chrome fog]

It’s fine

[vital lodge]

I jsut did

geez sorry for triggering the defences

[chrome fog]

We’ve had a lot of bad actors push the issue further than needed, when the facts of the situation just is what they are

[jagged badge]

As I said, a billion people have tried to rant about it before. We don’t need it. Not in this channel, and not in this server either

[vital lodge]

I just dont understand how its legal

[chrome fog]

I mean there are people who’d discuss it in #✨destiny-discussion but eh

[jagged badge]

It happened, it was unavoidable in the circumstances so there’s nothing to talk about

[jagged badge]

Because you agreed to it

[vital lodge]

when did I agree to only rent it

[jagged badge]

When you accept the terms and conditions or whatever before you’re able to play

[vital lodge]

ah right I forgot

[jagged badge]

Now let’s move on

[vital lodge]

we dont own what we buy anymore

[jagged badge]

Move on

[vital lodge]

I did

[jagged badge]

[vital lodge]

type slower so I can finish my sentence

I will shush but not mid sentence

[chrome fog]

Because there’s no precedent at the moment for this scenario, plus there are other issues occurring with Bungie’s higher management that we cannot be privy to for legal reasons; they’re already trying to put D1 content back into D2 alongside new seasonal/episodic content and expansion releases, so it will take a while to get to reinstating D2 content that’s been vaulted, though they are making strides as is apparent with weapons that have been taken out of the Vault

And then that will be that

[vital lodge]

theyre charging for that content thats being returned tho

[chrome fog]

In any case is just unfortunate on every part, but that’s all that can be done

Anyways

[vital lodge]

wack

[chrome fog]

Pyramids

They’re just big paracausal ships, which the Witness can remotely control, though they have some primitive intelligence to operate on their own

[torn hazel]

It's so cool the way the pyramids are. Like they have their own will (under the Witness) and personality, it seems. Some seem like they like or approve of you and others just hate you for no reason and lock you in rooms

I like making deals with the angry triangles

[chrome fog]

I was gonna object to them having an intelligence, but your description changes my mind

[torn hazel]

They're basically demons, but space ships

Shit's rad

[torn hazel]

And you're welcome

You didn't see them that way though? How did you see them?

[jagged badge]

With their eyes probably

[chrome fog]

I never really consider how capricious the Pyramids are as a whole, as sometimes they help and other times they obstruct the Guardian's path

But framing it the way you did makes sense

[torn hazel]

Like Ghost says, they're manipulating us and behaving that way made us do what they wanted, go where they wanted

They think but don't talk. Their thoughts are malice even if it doesn't seem so

[chrome fog]

In honesty, I saw it as the Witness struggling with trying to entice us towards their side with keeping us from destroying all their shit, though our foray into the Imperator wouldn't make much sense save for letting us go down a path where we and our Ghost would be next to the Veil, for it to channel itself through the Ghost like it did in Arrivals

[torn hazel]

The Witness gave the command but they knew the pyramids knew how best to put it to action

See we think we're smarter but they think the same so it's all about outwitting, but the Witness and the pyramids were in fact smarter and they got us with their long game plan

[dim minnow]

given some info we have, the Witness seems linked to its pyramids

[warm gazelle]

We hear the Witness' voice when we enter the pyramid on Europa, enticing us to embrace the Darkness.

[torn hazel]

Yes, they spoke through them. There's a mental paracausal link

[chrome fog]

Which we now know to be specifically the Darkness

[hybrid frigate]

Hi historians, just want to know, is the darkness a force or is it just the witnesses pyramid gang

[jagged badge]

The Darkness is a force the Witness is using to its own ends

It originated from the Veil

[hybrid frigate]

Do we know what the veil is, the lightfalll campaign didn’t make much sense

[dim minnow]

well I wouldn't say that the Veil and the Traveler are the source of Darkness and Light respectively

[dim minnow]

the Traveler is an entity that can shape the physical world

and the Light is the physical domain, hence the Traveler's relation to the Light

the Veil is the Traveler's Dark equivalent

with the Dark being the conscious domain

[hybrid frigate]

Ah

Makes a lot of sense now

[torn hazel]

But ironically the darkness appears to have no consciousness of its own

[dim minnow]

the Darkness is just an inherent part of the universe

can't really be conscious itself

the Veil on the other hand, given how others refer to it might have the capability to be conscious

if the Traveler itself is sentient, then the Veil probably is as well unless there's something we don't know

[chrome fog]

The duality between the two could specifically mean that the Veil has no mind of its own, or it’s malevolent compared to the Traveler, or maybe it’s “consciousness” is highly impressionable as opposed to the Traveler/Gardener’s clear goal of universal cooperation

[torn hazel]

I don't really think it's malevolent because it wouldn't tolerate the Neomuni accessing it for their Cloud Ark, which is dumb btw

[dim minnow]

well the Veil wasn't exactly the easiest thing to work with

it did kill off the Exos that were on Exodus Indigo

[trim grotto]

They weren't exactly accessing it, per se. More using it to support the framework.

[torn hazel]

It what? Also idk where that is either

[dim minnow]

and we can't say for certain if the Veil did that intentionally

[dim minnow]

Exodus Indigo was a colony ship that arrived on Neptune not long before the founding of Neomuna

[trim grotto]

Exodus Ships were Golden Age colony ships. The Exodus Indigo had the colonists that landed on Neptune during the Collapse.

[dim minnow]

I think Maya arrived on it

[exotic cloak]

Is explained in the veil logs, in parting the veil mission you can hear some logs explaining the origin of neomuna and a lot of other things

[dim minnow]

anyways, the Veil gave off a sort of radiation that did not work well with the exos

pretty much killed them

[exotic cloak]

But maybe I didn't understand them correctly but I guess is more of a corruption

Like, Veil energy ended hurting the exos and the other members of the exodus indigo not because it was evil but because of how darkness affected them

I don't know if there's any story of Traveler studies but, they were steps from the veil

No idea if the traveler could affect us that level if we get that close for that amount of time

[dim minnow]

the Traveler is too benevolent for that

[chrome fog]

There’s also Maya Sundaresh’s descent into obsession with the Veil which led her down similar paths as the Witness; it’s how we learn Lakshmi-2 as we knew her was a product of a similar ritual to meld minds into one singular consciousness, with a mindscan of Maya being included with all the dead exos

[dim minnow]

plus the Traveler's abilities are primarily physical given its connection to the Light

[trim grotto]

I mean, we built a city below it. If it gave off a harmful radiation I think we'd know by now

It's been a few centuries

[dim minnow]

really was ironic

especially when comparing her to Clovis

[exotic cloak]

I know but there's like a important distance between the city and the traveler, those guys were pretty close to the veil. But I guess that doesn't really make a difference

[chrome fog]

She really made it her job to be Not Clovis and then proceeded down the same spiral when they found the Veil

[dim minnow]

then Clovis actually had a change of heart

[chrome fog]

Parallels! Comparison and Contrast!

[trim grotto]

The Traveler is the most studied and researched topic in the City. They even noted the way its power waxed and waned.

[dim minnow]

it helps that the Veil appears to be smaller than the Traveler

[trim grotto]

Smooth

[chrome fog]

Amazing

[exotic cloak]

Yep

But significantly more smaller damn

[chrome fog]

Also genuinely, Destiny’s story is very good in demonstrating parallels, like it’s one thing the story gets down well

[exotic cloak]

Traveler seems so big and then

We just had a battle below the veil

And could see all of it

[shadow crypt]

Who’s the most powerful Guardian?

Would it be me?

[exotic cloak]

No we aren't

[shadow crypt]

😔

[exotic cloak]

We pretty much just a random dude that is there in the correct moment

But, we are not that powerful

[exotic cloak]

You at least mastered darkness two times

[shadow crypt]

Haven’t we mastered every subclass?

We can switch

rapidly

[chrome fog]

And also all three elemental subclass, that is also relatively significant

[exotic cloak]

Wait not every guardian domains the three subclasses?

[jagged badge]

Most Guardians are still learning one

[exotic cloak]

Damn

[shadow crypt]

So if we aren’t the most powerful Guardian

who is it?

Ikora?

Zavala?

[jagged badge]

The Young Wolf is certainly powerful, and something of a prodigy, but we still don’t have the power of people who have centuries of experience over us

Like Ikora yeah

[trim grotto]

You need to read the WQ CE

[shadow crypt]

Is it in the Ishtar Collective for free?

[jagged badge]

Every Guardian has the same capacity for power, but some are quicker to grasp it and/or more disciplined and such

[dim minnow]

no, but you can find a transcription of it in the pins

[warm gazelle]

Ikora washed, coasting on reputation from the Crucible she doesn't join any longer

[trim grotto]

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

[shadow crypt]

wow

[jagged badge]

Let’s pretend she didn’t show off some very impressive feats as recently as the Red War and also Witch Queen

[dim minnow]

only known person to beat Shaxx in a fight fairly

other than maybe us according to some random npc dialogue

[exotic cloak]

If I understand correctly didn't her abandoned Crucible because she was too powerful or something like that

[jagged badge]

Ikora has earned her status as a badass

[shadow crypt]

Is Shaxx right after her for the title of the strongest Guardian?

Or someone like Osiris or Saint

[warm gazelle]

Saladin gotta be up there too

[trim grotto]

Okay I have to stop you there for a sec

I'm getting you the chapter

[shadow crypt]

dang

[exotic cloak]

Mael knows

[jagged badge]

I could not afford to lose and be revealed as limited. But more importantly, I could not afford to win. What would they say if they knew what I could really do? The danger I could be?```

[warm gazelle]

we also need to see what Osiris is like with his darkness powers mastered, who even knows how strong he is now, even without being a Lightbearer

[dim minnow]

he's an old man...

[chrome fog]

Question which entry is this one because it’s been on my mind for a while but I can’t remember where it’s from

[exotic cloak]

Well he stopped Mara but that was is not very remarkable apparently

[trim grotto]

Go into the transcript
Look for SUBJ: STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF IKO-006 near the end.

Read
Thoroughly

[exotic cloak]

Anyway what Dovadah said bro is old

[warm gazelle]

hey man let's see what you look like a few odd centuries from now

[dim minnow]

holding her arms back is not what I would consider that impressive of a feat

even considering how she could tear a Pyramid ship apart (or split the Dreaming City in half)

[exotic cloak]

Considering who is her and in the scene he is actually having a bad time holding her

[trim grotto]

Do Not Anger Queen Smurf

[exotic cloak]

But yeah

Not impressive indeed

[jagged badge]

The same part of the Witch Queen CE Mael is talking about actually

[dim minnow]

not like she is using her full strength there

[jagged badge]

(These complaints come from the same people who ask why we haven't reconquered the whole solar system with our vast strength, forgetting how many Guardians are either in abeyance after exhaustion, still working on mastering their first subclass, or already committed to the protection of populations and resources here on Earth.)

[dim minnow]

hell, most of that strength is probably psychic anyway

[exotic cloak]

Considering we are inmortal and the other dudes than been living centuries are doing well

[warm gazelle]

as far as lightbearers go Savathun's gotta be the strongest one though, no?

[dim minnow]

nah

[trim grotto]

Well, she's cheating a bit. She has the Wellspring and her Throne World backing her.

[exotic cloak]

We beaten her ass

[dim minnow]

Saint beat the shit out of her

[exotic cloak]

Many times

[warm gazelle]

He did? By himself?

[trim grotto]

Repeatedly

[jagged badge]

We killed Savathûn twice in Witch Queen

[dim minnow]

while we mainly beat her because we broke her focus, that was still enough for Savathun to doubt her own abilities when we stood against her after Eris got rid of Xivu

[warm gazelle]

well yeah a team of guardians ganging up on one person could do that

[exotic cloak]

There's a small text explaining how Saint killed Savathun a lot of times

[warm gazelle]

I'd bet a team of guardians could kill any lightbearer

[chrome fog]

Again, no real definition for “Strongest Lightbearer” as there are multiple factors in play, as well as the fact that Paracausality is meant to overcome these probabilities of “Strongest whatever”

[dim minnow]

yeah, he forced Immaru to keep rezzing her

[jagged badge]

It was just us

[shadow crypt]

Jeez

99th percentile

[exotic cloak]

Making Immaru resurrect her again and again and again

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/proportionality

[shadow crypt]

is ridiculous

[exotic cloak]

If I remember correctly

Dude literally instakill her

Oh look there's the text

[shadow crypt]

so she’s like a one of a kind basically

[trim grotto]

Yes but that's not why I linked it
The rest of the entry is what is valuable to learn

[dim minnow]

it's also funny that the exotic effects for Saint's helmet are canon and automatically apply to his ward of dawns

[shadow crypt]

yea I read the first part that you told me too first

It’s pretty interesting

[exotic cloak]

Lol

I guess the stronger light bearer must be one of the old guardians following this logic

[dim minnow]

now I want Bungie to write a lore entry on Savathun sneaking into a Trials of Osiris match only to get hit with the sweatiest motherfuckers this side of Sol

[exotic cloak]

I bet on Ikora

[exotic cloak]

[trim grotto]

Well, they've had more time to master their power, at least.

[warm gazelle]

bro can do this shit so where tf is he when shit is actually going down

[chrome fog]

Being a good hubby

[exotic cloak]

Yeah that's why, they definitely are stronger than us, Savathun or any Lightbearer like Ghaul (Ghaul was considered a lightbearer right?)

[trim grotto]

In a way, I suppose.

[warm gazelle]

i only know a handful of sherpas that can do that to Savathun

[exotic cloak]

And well, the one guardian afraid of show her true power is Ikora

[exotic cloak]

Consider that this guys are leaders

They are well, leading

[trim grotto]

Alright I'm going back to work
Have fun kids

[chrome fog]

He’s spent two wars dedicated to total violence and eradication of his enemy, one of which was only to find his boyfriend who had gone deep into the Vex Network. He’s tired, boss.

[jagged badge]

Or are you

[trim grotto]

I'm in danger of going broke if I don't
Turns out houses and their renovations are expensive

[jagged badge]

Mad

[chrome fog]

Oof gl

[exotic cloak]

We all know Zavala and Ikora could easily just go to Neomuna and beat the shit out of Calus or Saint could enter the throne world and break Savathuns ass but, the gang is working

[trim grotto]

Who'd-a thunk it

[warm gazelle]

leading what, the universe was on the line in Neptune and no vanguard to be seen anywhere

[exotic cloak]

You are here to do the heavy job pal

[shadow crypt]

Do we know what country the last city is located in?

[exotic cloak]

Yeah, cause we are fighting other threats

There's like

[jagged badge]

No, but we do know which continent

[shadow crypt]

South America?

[chrome fog]

We have a ballpark of where it is, somewhere near Chile I believe

[exotic cloak]

5 factions that want our dead and for some reason are still around

[jagged badge]

[dim minnow]

not a legitmate one, but yes

[exotic cloak]

Red War remnants, Fallen assholes, Taken, Scorn and Vex

[dim minnow]

though I doubt Ghaul even as a lightbearer was stronger than us'

[exotic cloak]

[warm gazelle]

There's mountains in the distance, right? I'd guess some geoguessr chad could probably find where we are based on them.

[jagged badge]

No, not really

[chrome fog]

The Panama Canal being a close landmark as well as particularly South American details when describing the journey to the Last City also hint at this

[dim minnow]

after all, we did kick his ass at the end of the Red War

[shadow crypt]

What about what year it currently is in Destiny?

[exotic cloak]

Indeed

[warm gazelle]

don't ask for numbers in Destiny

[jagged badge]

There’s no way of knowing that

[warm gazelle]

there are none to be found

[shadow crypt]

oh ok

[dim minnow]

the entire Red War campaign proved that the Red Legion would have been taken down immediately if we knew they were coming

[warm gazelle]

the entire red war proved how important the element of surprise is in war.

[exotic cloak]

No idea but at least we know that the actual story of the game happens through actual 10 years

And every important shit happens on Tuesday

[dim minnow]

*how important getting help from an omnipotent entity is in a war

[warm gazelle]

and how a weaker force can potentially even the odds against a far stronger one by doing so

[chrome fog]

Unknown; Golden Age lasted an unspecified amount of time, the Dark Age lasted at least a millennia after the Collapse, itself lasting over a period of time, and then the City has been ongoing for a couple centuries as well, considering how long ago the Great Disaster was and that Eris - a participant of the Hellmouth expedition team - was once a Last City citizen prior to her resurrection

Cory

[dim minnow]

sure, our satellites and detection systems were taken down by the Red LEgion's careful planning and psions, but Guardians should have been able to predict their arrival

[warm gazelle]

and with very few exceptions, lightbearers have no knowledge of their past to even tell how long it's been

[chrome fog]

Wrf autocorrect

I don’t like touchscreen keyboards

[dim minnow]

the reason why the Guardians didn't forsee the attaack was because one of the Nine helped them

[shadow crypt]

Who are the Nine in simple terms?

[exotic cloak]

I find funny something that someone commented here before, that Guardians loosing their memory every time at resurrect would be a huge problem

[jagged badge]

Space dust go brrr

[exotic cloak]

There's any entry of something like that happening? Like some guardian actually loosing all their memories or having brain dead?

Kinda like exos resets

[dim minnow]

clouds of sentient space dust bound to the gravitational loops of each planet in Sol and the life that lives on them

[shadow crypt]

Celestial Bodies?

Ohhh

[jagged badge]

No ‘cause that’s not how it works

[warm gazelle]

mortal men, doomed to die

[chrome fog]

Loud incorrect buzzer noise

[jagged badge]

The Nine have left Minas Morgul

[exotic cloak]

I know but I talk about something like a super specific case, I guess by that answer there is not

[shadow crypt]

also did we ever find out who Elsie was talking to in D1 on Venus?

[exotic cloak]

[warm gazelle]

activision execs

[chrome fog]

You might like to read up on the Thantonauts, they’re a group dedicated to researching the mechanics of resurrection, though they themselves haven’t come to any conclusions

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[jagged badge]

They crossed the River Isen on Midsummer's Eve, disguised as riders in black

[shadow crypt]

damn

so it’s a thing which we don’t exactly know?

[warm gazelle]

the story of D1 was incomprehensible to me i'm sorry

things just happened sometimes

[dim minnow]

THEY'RE TAKING THE HOBBITS TO ISENGARD

[exotic cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/legolas-lotr-hobbits-lord-of-the-rings-they-are-taking-the-hobbits-to-isengard-gif-17564990

[ember storm]

by design, it wasn’t meant to be climactic

after activision got involved, the point was to send out a series of dlc

so the vanilla campaign just served to set everything up

introducing the hive on the moon and the awoken, for example

[heady monolith]

are there any light bearers (not including lucent brood) that pose a threat to the vanguard that can potentially become the main focus of the next saga

[ember storm]

it was less about the destination and more about the journey

[ember storm]

not particularly

[dim minnow]

only potential example would be Lysander, but we aren't even sure if he intends to be our enemy at this point

[ember storm]

is he a guardian?

[dim minnow]

I believe so

he was the leader of a faction called the Concordat who held a seat on the consensus before they were replaced by the Future War Cult

as for why they were replaced, it was because they attempted a coup on the Consensus only to be stopped by New Monarchy in a battle that took place on Bannerfall

ever since his exile, Lysander secretly sent gifts to Guardians perceptive enough to find them

and now, the Concordat sent Skimmers to the last city as a "peace offering"

[trim grotto]

All we know about the Concordat - and this is shakey at best - is that they're "Guardian supremacists". Whether this means Lysander is a Guardian himself is quite unclear. If you'll forgive me for making a rather extreme example to compare to, I'd look at Hitler's advocacy for the "Aryan race", despite not fitting the bill himself.

[dim minnow]

I'd make the argument that the Concordat advocated for Guardians to have sole leadership over humanity

[trim grotto]

Being a Lightbearer himself would, however, explain his continued survival and longevity.

[dim minnow]

motives/reasoning for their ideals could be interesting

maybe Lysander believed that having Guardians as leadership gave the Last City the best chance for survival

or he could just be a supremacist

[heady monolith]

i assume the concordat giving us skimmers would be their effort of easing us into following them or something

[dim minnow]

according to them, the Skimmers are a peace offering

[heady monolith]

its like the kkk giving us skateboards is what im gathering

[dim minnow]

we don't know enough about them to make that kind of assumption

[heady monolith]

thats fair

i hope we got more info about them because im actually pretty interested about them

[dim minnow]

I'm hoping there's some nuance to them so that they are at the least not fully a villain

you know

isn't the Last City currently being lead purely by Guardians?

I mean, the factions are gone

no Speaker

right now the Consensus is just the Vanguard

seriously I want them to actually talk about the current state of Last City government

and maybe have them try to fix it

[heady monolith]

i do think it would be interesting to have 'evil' light bearers since having these really powerful abilities can lead to power hunger individuals and cause interesting debates and dynamics

[dim minnow]

because the Faction system was really only a band-aid fix which is why it didn't end smoothly

[ember storm]

sad that the last city might not be able to enjoy the wonders of freezer pizza

[exotic cloak]

They can enjoy taken butter

We are the ones losing here

[warm gazelle]

Well

He won, then

There are no non-guardians in the Consensus

[warm gazelle]

did a shit job

[chrome fog]

I mean if it left you wanting more, it did its job and exactly as it should have

[warm gazelle]

it left me confused more than anything

[chrome fog]

And you wanted answers, yes?

[warm gazelle]

confusion is not a synonym for curiosity

[chrome fog]

You wished it clarified more about what it presented, then

[warm gazelle]

Have you played the D1 campaign?

[chrome fog]

Do you get what I’m trying to reiterate, that the vanilla campaign is simple and confusing purposefully to allow exploration of the world through expansions

Because the fact you’re here asking questions about wtf was going on in the vanilla game proves it served its purpose

[warm gazelle]

Do you get what I'm trying to reiterate, that making a story deliberately confusing doesn't make people more interested in learning the story?

Like, the whole reason I've waited this long to get into D2 was because of how much I hated D1.

[chrome fog]

Then skissue

[warm gazelle]

Have you played D1's campaign?

[chrome fog]

I don’t let it clog my discussion of the lore, just acknowledge I didn’t like it and move on

[warm gazelle]

The whole thing is told in lengthy, obnoxiously vague exposition dumps in the loading screens before each mission. The storytelling is dogshit.

[chrome fog]

Womp womp, watch the story on Destiny Lore Vault or watch a recap or smth. Just because the story did not start immediately compelling to you and others does not mean that it didn’t work in sparking interest for further expansion upon the universe we only got a glimpse of in vanilla; which was the whole point, as the expansions would have gone further into world and allowed you to explore parts of the world building you felt were neglected, as well as facing with immediate threats that would resonate as you Guardian’s own feats rather than solely hearing about legends of the past. Each expansion has (or at least aimed to have) you learn about the world and builds it up all while allowing you to build your own legend.

If it started off shitty, then big whoop, it did and now we have the expansions to make up for that as well as D2 and its expansions

Whining about it in lore chat isn’t going to magically make it better, so it’s pointless complaining about it

[warm gazelle]

Holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with you. I was fine leaving it there, you're the one who's going on and on.

[chrome fog]

Anyways, cow thing

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/brephos-iii

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1119631517287727225/1213968484011348048/image.png?ex=661316c1&is=6600a1c1&hm=d3f860192beb06ca88c26f970aa6fe489fb03eb9d6156668eac1208b3fc781a3&

[blazing wasp]

Jesus

Whay happened here

[chrome fog]

Complaining about D1 being bad. To which I would like to ensure any further complaints know that they are not necessary to discussion of the lore.

[blazing wasp]

I shouldn't have asked

I definitely shouldn't have looked.

[calm granite]

lorechat is a powder barrel always ready to implode

[empty fern]

It’s been like 30 minutes, let’s talk about twilight Harrison lore

[chrome fog]

I think it's developed by Forces of the Last City? The non-lightbearer militia which assists in the defense of the City as well as police enforcement I think

[empty fern]

Explains why every redjack model has one

[jagged badge]

Twilight Harrison

[chrome fog]

The symbol I think is what leads to that conclusion, kinda like uh the Concodat having their symbol on some armor pieces (I think uh the Apocalypse gear) as well as in the pvp map set in the city

FotLC are one of many parts of the Destiny universe currently underexplored, but if Marathon becomes a success, I do hope we get a small spin-off like Spartan Assault/Strike for Destiny, seems like a good way to do an ODST type story or in general explore some of the currently neglected parts of lore

[spiral crane]

What is the light and what is the dark

Why r they enemies

[pale parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/iroh-leaves-from-the-vine-avatar-the-last-airbender-atla-gif-883470456609551884

well.. how much time do you have to listen?

[empty fern]

Not enough

[spiral crane]

I’m not rlly doing much rn

Just give me liken

The summed up version

[pale parcel]

to be truthful? we dont really know TRULY

we have theories and like

hints

but essentially-

neither is really good nor bad

just differing views

theres

• conscious theory
• flower game theory
  and one other i forgot

the flower game is simpler ill start with that

[spiral crane]

👍

[pale parcel]

essentially

light makes life
dark ends it

neither is bad nor good- it always ended in the dark winning though, so the light left the garden and joined the game itself. darkness got upset it did this and did the same

rn we play in that "timeline" or "game"

as for the conscious theory? thats like

weird

[spiral crane]

wdym by game

and what garden

[pale parcel]

do yk conways game of life

[spiral crane]

kind of

[pale parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/glider-gun-game-of-life-conway-conway-game-of-life-gif-16861451

essentially this but the black spots are civilizations

[spiral crane]

i see

[pale parcel]

the black garden

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-garden-of-salvation-black-garden-darkness-flowers-gif-27621997

[spiral crane]

so they're like players of a game of life

and that game is the destiny universe

[pale parcel]

yep

and the one WE play in

is where the light and dark join us

[spiral crane]

what about that whole thing with the witness and "meaning" and stuff

[pale parcel]

light joining as the traveler

and dark joining as god knows what

[spiral crane]

ball vs triangle

[pale parcel]

i think the weave thing but im not caught up with current lore

[pale parcel]

yeah

[spiral crane]

did u see that video for the witnesses origin story

[pale parcel]

the witness is just a disciple of the darkness

he just does what the darkness wants

which is ending civilizations cause

yk

https://tenor.com/view/glider-gun-game-of-life-conway-conway-game-of-life-gif-16861451

[spiral crane]

ok makes sense

whats the other theory?

[pale parcel]

ask someone else cause im sure im gonna describe it wrong

[spiral crane]

aight

can someone explain the concious theory to me?

[pale parcel]

(idk the true name so that could be wrong too lmao)

new destiny lore

is weird

[empty fern]

Oh that?

[pale parcel]

its all emotional and shit

[empty fern]

Darkness is part of the mind while light is part of the physical right?

[pale parcel]

yeah

something like that

and how like

light makes the world yet darkness is why we percive it as beautiful

cause like

[empty fern]

Yea, if you visit the veil in lightfall and listen to the recordings, you can get a neat idea

[pale parcel]

itl end/its our mind stuff

its emotional stuff

i like the black garden

[chrome fog]

They are not sentient, they are aspects of Paracausality, an additional force added to the Destiny universe akin to gravity or atomic forces

[spiral crane]

im confused

[pale parcel]

LETS GO ANATHEME 🔥

LETS GO ANATHEME 🔥

[pale parcel]

also ❌

we dont KNOW if they are or not

so

[chrome fog]

They are influenced and rely on one's emotions but are not wholly sentient themselves; for example the Darkness was not speaking to us, it was the Witness

[pale parcel]

its a ❓ rn

[spiral crane]

the travler seems pretty sentient

[pale parcel]

we dont knwo if theyre sentient or not

[spiral crane]

wait so every time we commune with pyraminds and stuff thats the witness?

[chrome fog]

Even disregarding Unveiling, the way in which Light and Darkness are interacted with does not suggest inherent sentience within the forces

[chrome fog]

Yes

WHen Ghost got hijacked and had that weird voice speaking through them, that was the Witness

[pale parcel]

"Such as my man oryx."

[chrome fog]

The Voice in the Deep is the Witness

[pale parcel]

the witness folows what hes told- akin to an order

he been sayin this

yet it also contradicts

*we dont know if they sentient or not"

this is why

yk

final shape exist

cause we're seeing the true nature of the light and dark and whatever the final shape is

we do not know yet

[spiral crane]

make like a fusing of light and dark

[chrome fog]

Because he's a nihilist doomer brain who thinks their course of action is the way to "save" existence from no inherent meaning to existence

[spiral crane]

is the final shap

[pale parcel]

thats just life

[chrome fog]

Nnnno it's not; well, kind of not

[pale parcel]

life as a concept

life-death

[spiral crane]

what is his plan exactly?

[pale parcel]

the cycle

[chrome fog]

Eeehhhh

[pale parcel]

"life" not

living being

[chrome fog]

Either make it so all sentient life follows the Sword Logic, or just fucking erase everything

[pale parcel]

LETS GO ANATHEMA

[spiral crane]

wtf is the sword logic

[chrome fog]

And "it" not "he"

[pale parcel]

LETS GO ANATHEMA

[chrome fog]

What do you mean anathema

[pale parcel]

hive logic

[pale parcel]

anatheme

autocorrect

[spiral crane]

so make everyone a drone

[pale parcel]

essentially "serve and kill yourself for someone higher than you"

martyrical suicide and brainwashing

tldr

[chrome fog]

Almost; you kill to prove you deserve to exist more than the person you killed

Which is then made literal with the worms

[pale parcel]

so yeah

[chrome fog]

Because they feed off of death

[pale parcel]

this goon all

ball

[spiral crane]

wtf

[chrome fog]

I did a run down on the Hive's origins yesterday, let me pull it down

[spiral crane]

so is the witness just insane

[pale parcel]

kinda

who isnt tho

[chrome fog]

History of the Hive for ya
#📚lore-discussion message

[chrome fog]

They're nihilistic pessimists who refuse to be wrong, yes

[pale parcel]

insanity is determined by bias and societal norm

[blazing wasp]

The witness is basically just a pessimistic cynical nihilist

The cynical part is the mildest one

[pale parcel]

he just like me fr

[spiral crane]

worm gods seem like assholes

[chrome fog]

But aside deconstructing the standards by which insanity is determined, the Witness is a Bad Person who does not have the best intentions

[blazing wasp]

"The universe makes us both victim and perpetrator" is the best line to show how he's all 3

[spiral crane]

its so nice to be in a server where im allowed to curse

[chrome fog]

They are assholes but also they got beat up in an alleyway by Rhulk and made to follow the plan

[pale parcel]

unless you belive his ideals are good- then hes a good person

[chrome fog]

I don't want to kill to prove I should live

[pale parcel]

welcome to free thought guys

[blazing wasp]

The universe sucks, the universe is bad towards us, and we're bad towards others (because of the universe)

[pale parcel]

lame

we literally do that already

[spiral crane]

from the most commonly accepted standards of being a good person. I'd say hes pretty baad

[pale parcel]

any strike lmao

it may be indirect but

[chrome fog]

That's just being a dickhead, I like my friends and family, I don't want to kill them

[blazing wasp]

The witness is if a nihilistic cynical pessimist actually attempted to resolve this

[spiral crane]

why does he want that? what does that even achieve?

[pale parcel]

im talking about ingame 😭

[spiral crane]

It*

[chrome fog]

Because that's what it believes is the meaning of existence, despite existence not having an inherent meaning to it

[blazing wasp]

It doesn't need to make sense, it's simply just darwinism taken to the extreme

[chrome fog]

Social darwinism specifically

[spiral crane]

sure buddy

[blazing wasp]

Yea

[chrome fog]

Not actual darwinistic thought; which technically we would be demostrating with the cooperation with other species to achieve greater goals than we could on our own

[blazing wasp]

Yeah.

Survival of the fittest doesn't even mean physical strength

Or purely strength at all

[spiral crane]

the meaning of existance is killing other people in order to deserve to exist?

[blazing wasp]

But its a easy comparison.

[blazing wasp]

Well to it, nothing has true meaning

That's why it seeks to create what it deems meaning

[spiral crane]

how can it beleive nothing has meaning but it alone can create meaning?

that feels hypocritical

[chrome fog]

Survival of the "Fittest" in the social darwinistic sense that, the Strongest will always survive, and you prove you are the strongest by being the biggest, baddest creature in the ecosystem; it's a severely flawed line of thinking because it's not even remotely true

[blazing wasp]

Nihilism is, so is being cynical, so is extreme pessimism

[spiral crane]

thats so poitnless 😭

[chrome fog]

They asked the Traveler what the meaning of existence was, but the Traveler remained silent (because fuckin duh, there's no real inherent meaning to living, you just live); so they made up their own reason, which is what we've explained

[blazing wasp]

It doesn't need to make sense to us because the winnower doesn't care about that

It makes sense to it, because it thinks it is right

[chrome fog]

Exactly, but it's a prevelant line of thought even irl, the number of fuckers who still subscribe to Social Darwinism in some form is dumb

[blazing wasp]

In its eyes, it knows its right, completely and truly

[spiral crane]

not a half bad idea for a villian ngl

[blazing wasp]

And in ours its so far off the rails its evolved legs and is traversing the mountains

[blazing wasp]

Its simple done well

Its someone who's almost objectively evil, but properly executed

[chrome fog]

ikr, and we even preset as a perfect antithetical, considering "Guardians Make their Own Fate"; we make our own meaning of life

[blazing wasp]

Not because "big bad" is easy

[spiral crane]

its plan is so absolutley crazy. But its such a fanatic its convinced its the only way

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-stand-up-applause-clapping-gif-25348670

God yes another one understands

[blazing wasp]

Its not exactly a unexplored concept.

In fact it's the basis for like

Most villains

[spiral crane]

not fully

and you cant say its unrealistic becayse there are people like this irl

[blazing wasp]

The fundamentals of the witness is a older concept and troupe than any person still alive

It probably predates some countries.

[chrome fog]

I know, but it's refreshing when someone understands why the Witness is just Objectively Bad instead of saying it's correct without realizing how detrimental that line of thought is

[blazing wasp]

Doesn't make it dull, nor boring

The witness is a example of just that

Because they're interesting and done well

But they're not something difficult to understand and analyse, because the concept has been analysed and understood for a long long timr

[spiral crane]

why would anyone say its correct lmao

its batshit insane

[chrome fog]

Same reason people try to be Dredgen Yor both in lore and in game; edgy funni an cool

[spiral crane]

nah fuck the witness hes bonkers

what he beleives aside he also has no right to force the whole universe into his line of thought

and what hes trying to force on them makes it even worse

[chrome fog]

Now to go back to some things unaddressed

[blazing wasp]

Several reasons

Some people are nihilistic or such due to the unwillingness, or inability to "see the bigger picture"

For a variety of reasons

Maybe it's projection, egocentrism, cowardice, blatantly being an idiot

Maybe they just want attention and don't actually believe this

Or maybe they're just broken.

The list goes on for too long

[chrome fog]

We kill to defend, most enemies we kill are combatants which pose a threat to us as well as prevent us from reaching an objective which will assist us, but when given a chance we'd like to ally and collaborate to better defend each other as a whole

[blazing wasp]

Because as a direct result of how ungodly socially and psychologically complex we as humans are

[spiral crane]

its also war and we're killing soldiers. its not the best thing in the world but its differnt than killing random ppl for no reason

[blazing wasp]

There's too many factors that can make a person behave and think a ceirtan way

[spiral crane]

so like do nihilists think we should do stuff like the witness wants?

[chrome fog]

We could be like Shaxx or Saint, killing noncombatants, some even fellow humans

[blazing wasp]

Not necessarily

Most of them just don't do anything

Nihilism is just thinking nothing matters

Not always in a negative way

Negative nihilism is usually because they're also pessimistic and cynical

[spiral crane]

so like "nothing matters so i hate everyone"?

[blazing wasp]

But just being nihilistic can just be "nothing matters, so live your life to the fullest"

[spiral crane]

i vibe with that

kinda

[blazing wasp]

Nihilism just means you don't think anything truly matters, we're all just chemicals following a preset pattern

[chrome fog]

If they don't read more of Nietzsche's stuff, yeah; fundamental to the philosophy of nihilism is the recognition of no inherent meaning to existence, but further into his philosopher career, Nietzsche recognizes that this means we must make that meaning ourselves and work to improve ourselves. However, people just beeline for the "no meaning to existence" conclusion and use that to justify being horrible because "it doesn't matter in the end"

To this extent, there are two sides to the school of nihilism
Cosmic/Absurdist Nihilism only recognizes that first part, the absence of inherent meaning for life
Optimistic Nihilism also follows the latter part, and works towards being better Just Because

[blazing wasp]

Being cynical however is more a "everyone acts just for their own benefit"

[spiral crane]

i don't really follow how those two connect but sure

[blazing wasp]

This thinking is usually as a result of egocentrism or projection

[blazing wasp]

Elaborate?

[spiral crane]

how does us being chemicals follwing a preset pattern mean nothing matters?

how would not being chemcials change that?

[spiral crane]

so what would be the differnce between that and existanialism

[chrome fog]

Existentialism is much more broad, it leads into nihilism by inquiring about facts of life and contemplating for their reason; nihilism explicitly states there is no inherent meaning and whatever meaning that is found is assigned/derived from us

[blazing wasp]

I mean that they think both of these

[spiral crane]

so existentialism is an umbrella term

[blazing wasp]

Free will doesn't exist, and all our actions are responses to chemicals

[spiral crane]

but like we are those chemicals?

[blazing wasp]

Yeah

[spiral crane]

and theyre doing things

[blazing wasp]

Everything is chemicals, nihilism isn't exactly rational

[spiral crane]

so doesnt that mean we have autonomy?

[chrome fog]

It's its own branch of philosophy, but yes it does have a number of other schools of thoughts which derive from it

[blazing wasp]

Not really, if you're implying we have free will, having or not having free will isn't known

Quantum science is a field that actually can work to prove either

Or so they think

[chrome fog]

Uh Ven, Fench, yeah this pertains to lore because nihilism ties into the Witness' motivations and goals, so please excuse us

Ples i beg don be angy

[blazing wasp]

But free will requires the existence of true randomness, and were not nearly smart enough to know if we have that or not

[spiral crane]

we at least at surface level

can do things

[blazing wasp]

As far as we know, we don't know shitfuck

Maybe we don't have free will, maybe we dont

[spiral crane]

that calls into question what exactly is free will

maybe the defintion is unrealistic and thats why its uncertan whether it exists

[chrome fog]

There's also the fact that it's up to you if whichever this two options is true even matters to you