#šŸ“šlore-discussion

1 messages Ā· Page 79 of 1

ember storm
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they wouldnā€™t be

worldly river
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Someone's scanned the CE lore books and posted them on the lore subreddit

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Eido has very nice cursive handwriting

dusty jolt
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Lol

worldly river
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The Six Coyotes bit in the autograph book is very funny

chrome fog
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Ooooo neat

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Also @gentle pendant My b, they will get it scanned instantly

gentle pendant
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You fool! I was RIGHT!

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Anyway vex were created by the witness

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Kinda cool

chrome fog
jagged badge
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@heavy vortex should this get pinned like other CE lore stuff?

heavy vortex
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One sec

shadow crypt
heavy vortex
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More lore resources:

Final Shape CE book(s) transcripts:
Entelechy: https://imgur.com/gallery/b0wXlgS
Autograph book: https://imgur.com/gallery/YMgDdYZ

Lightfall CE book transcript:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19WPJUsdOioB64g_bQciQ6zaUn3EDStZXKWBxkn1-dW4/edit?usp=sharing

Witch queen CE book transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit

Beyond Lightā€™s logbook transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit

Explaining the nature of Arc, Solar and Void: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/k4k6ox/light_is_not_the_fundamental_forces made by LettuceDifferent

An updated analysis of Stasis: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/tb1svc/an_updated_analysis_of_stasis made by VintageNuke

How to kill a Guardian 101:
<#šŸ“šlore-discussion message> made by dovadah

heavy vortex
heavy vortex
jagged badge
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Awesome

empty fern
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Oh cool new pin

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Hi people from the future

ember storm
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I am

rich veldt
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ooh the future

ember storm
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in the future you are required to give me your bank details

rich veldt
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anything cool happen in the ce lore?

jagged badge
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Yea

rich veldt
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thats nice

smoky rose
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So I noticed something

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Actually nvm I misremembered

fast tapir
worldly river
# rich veldt anything cool happen in the ce lore?

Mostly, we get to see a conversation of two beings from the civilization that became the Witness, arguing about the final shape and the righteousness of coercing their view of it onto others, vs their responsibility to step in, among other things, plus Eido pointing out that the Witness was capable of swiftly and mercifully ending civilizations but opted to go scorched earth with the Eliksni and us
Some interesting tidbits- the Vex were seemingly a servant race of this civilization, and ||one of those individuals deserted before the Witness's creation||, plus it hints at why the Witness needs the Traveler to enact the Final Shape and further clarifies what the Witness's vision of the Final Shape is

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Also the autograph book is very neat, no surface level lore but it's cool

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Eido found a camera and got a selfie of herself, Mithrax, and Caitl

SPOILER_G9TrlNT.jpg
dim minnow
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oh shit, new lore

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who names a Ghost "||Differential Calculus||"?

dim minnow
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currently reading through the Witness book

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damn, the ||Noesis|| entry is pretty chilling

exotic cloak
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That guy is my new fav character

dim minnow
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ok, just finished reading the new lore

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pretty good stuff

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||and it seems to finally prove that the Witness =/= Winnower (at least in terms of mindset)||

empty fern
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Oh yay

worldly river
worldly river
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Eido's interpretation posits that ||the Witness has the idea of validating it's philosophy essentially backwards- rather than winning by validating its philosophy, it seems to win as a MEANS to validate its philosophy||

dim minnow
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even then, ||there is a now confirmed huge disconnect between the Winnower and Witness||

worldly river
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||Well between the stated goal of the Winnower and what we understand to be the goals of the Witness||

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||Frankly I'm at the point that I do not believe the Winnower even exists, insofar as being anything but a fictionalized version of the Witness itself||

dim minnow
worldly river
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?

dim minnow
worldly river
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Lmao

dim minnow
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it means he was right this entire time
(for context this comment was made by Seth Dickenson, the guy who wrote Unveiling)

worldly river
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LOOOOL

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Actually I remember bringing up the idea that Unveiling was propaganda like a year or so ago and being ridiculed cuz "Why would the Witness want to trick us if it believes its philosophy to be true"

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Once more I am potentially vindicated

chrome fog
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Ive been saying the Winnower is a made up image for a while as well

dim minnow
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I was moreso always under the idea that the Witness =/= the Winnower

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but you know, Witness exists while Winnower doesn't so I'm still right

rich smelt
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whats the lore implication for the only known toilet being in Europa?

dim minnow
rich smelt
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in a galaxy far far away, where only two shitters are known of. Man kind fight for their spot on the royal throne

dim minnow
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from the Hawkmoon mission

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in Crow's "Nest"

rich smelt
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thats not a toilet....

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thats a mop bucket....

dim minnow
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rolls of toilet paper

rich smelt
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but its not a proper toilet

dim minnow
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still used as one

rich smelt
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anything could be used as one

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but we wouldnt count it as one

eager trout
chrome fog
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A selfie HYPERS

eager trout
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I know it's a selfie, but I don't know who is what.

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Or what is who.

dim minnow
eager trout
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Ohhhh

eager trout
eager trout
bronze stone
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hello my beautiful lore people, i'm doing all the story in order (sometimes picking up some lore videos about a dungeon/raid and the vaulted content).
i have done everything (pretty much) up to Beyond Light, where does the campaign start? is it the campaign on Europa or is the Crux of Stasis mission first?

dim minnow
bronze stone
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when does Crux of Stasis fit in? i don't think it will lead me there or will it?

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i mean the New Light mission leads me there, i have just ignored it so far, because i wanna do it in order

dim minnow
bronze stone
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yes

dim minnow
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technically, it isn't really canon

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it's meant to basically summarize the plot and themes of Beyond Light

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like a recap episode or something

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same with the other timeline missions

bronze stone
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so that mission didn't exist when Beyond Light was present content?

dim minnow
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the Forsaken one is just the first mission but condensed

bronze stone
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yea, i would have thought it's the same with the others

dim minnow
bronze stone
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i see, so i guess i should play that after i have completed Beyond Light, just so i don't spoil myself but can complete everything the game has to offer?

dim minnow
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pretty much

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the reason why you're pushed into them early on is probably because the assumption that you don't own those expansions is made

bronze stone
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yea i get that, there are way worse things than that to overcome as a new light who likes to do the content in order xD

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for example no armor mods, subclass fragments and stuff like that ^^ because you'll unlock them at like guardian rank 4-6. but to get rank 3 you have to play Lightfall <.<

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anyways, thanks for the help :)

worldly river
jagged badge
chrome fog
# eager trout And what is the Winnower's goal?

To make it short, the Winnower is all about Survival of the Fittest in that ā€œOh which ever creature is capable of absolutely slaughtering the rest of the ecosystem is the bestest oneā€ type of interpretation which informs irl Social Darwinism; opposite to the Traveler/Gardenerā€™s hope that life in existence will responsibly use the power available to them to help one another out, the Winnower proposes that all life will struggle against each other until one species remains, one life form remains at the end of the universe

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And apparently, from the language used in Unveiling, the Winnower has been proven right every time with the consistent emergence of the Vex

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However, new Lightfall CE Lore ||seemingly informs us that the Vex are a creation of the Witness civilization||

fast tapir
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oh.. damn.

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uh where might it say that?

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i wanna read it

empty fern
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In THE book

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From the one expansion

chrome fog
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Entelechy

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I need to dive into it, but I peaked the spoilered messages and thatā€™s whatā€™s supposedly in the book

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Just finished the autograph book and itā€™s so nice Iā€™m a bit teary eyedpepepray

fast tapir
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oh yeah i looked at the autograph book first

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its so cool

dim minnow
chrome fog
worldly river
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Well it's not exactly a wild jump

dim minnow
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I think the best takeaway from Entelechy is that Seth Dickenson called it years ago

next bobcat
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šŸ’€

worldly river
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||While this race has seemingly committed evils in the past, at the time of the first and second messages they seemed like a peaceful race I struggle it believe would subjugate a species, so it makes more sense for the Vex to have been created by them than not||

dim minnow
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anyways, I actually really liked the approach they took with the Witness' character here
||basically, the Witness was fully capable of just wiping us out in mere moments, but it doesn't because it wants to make species blessed by the Traveler suffer||

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||because the Witness believes that it vindicates its purpose in some twisted way even though it has become so detached from what it used to be before becoming the Witness||

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||and despite all of this, the Witness fails to see the irony in it||

worldly river
# worldly river Eido's interpretation posits that ||the Witness has the idea of validating it's ...

Side note, I did somewhat misinterpret this, ||I misread the bit about seeking victory as a means to proving philosophy as being what she said the Witness does, but it says the Winnower|| which actually weakens my argument a lot, but I would still argue the structure jumping from ||pointing out the Witness tried to mislead us about the nature of the Darkness and it's dominion over it and then join into Unveiling as implying it was also an attempt by the Witness to mislead||

chrome fog
# dim minnow

||I mean yes, I agree the Winnower is fictitious, but I assumed from Skeletorā€™s point that the Vex were still created, itā€™s just that theyā€™re a fairly straightforward and ineffective demonstration of the Witnessā€™ beliefs that are conveyed through Unveiling, rather than being universally inevitable assimilators of all||

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A reminder I have yet to read the first book, I only read the autographs

dim minnow
chrome fog
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So Iā€™ll get on that when Iā€™m not staying up til 3 in the morning

worldly river
chrome fog
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I am so vindicated baybee

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God I shouldā€™ve done this for my Extended Essay instead the bullshit I whipped up

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Also i eepy and need to be doing stuff tomorrow otherwise i will be in deep doodoo, so niiiiiiight

worldly river
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||And seeing the hints of especially certain aspects of the Hive's philosophy, of something proving it's right to exist by harming another out of nature rather than malice, and this coming from someone so morally idealistic that elsewhere in the entry says they would rather not participate than choose between a lesser of two evils||

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I love it

blazing wasp
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This has so many spoiler tags it feels like I'm reading a fucking scp article

chrome fog
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Itā€™s beautiful

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To both Uke and Skele

worldly river
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Also lowkey setting up potential future plot hooks ||with the other pre-Witness species that glasses HNW's garden worlds, RS bailing before the Witness's, and hitting at a much more storied history for the Vex than we knew||

dim minnow
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which part were they in again?

worldly river
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||Also I never knew that Pyramidion was an actual word that meant something before and I'm curious to see if Bungie elaborates on that cuz it seemed very deliberate to fucking capitalize the word||

worldly river
# dim minnow which part were they in again?

Once ||in the second HNW entry, referring to "glass-minds" that prune the branches of their predictive probability machine||, and I feel like there was another ||referring to their role as Gardeners but I may have been confusing it with the mention of Pyramidion before I realized that is in fact a word besides being a Strike name||

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Which also, see above, they fucking capitalized it, feels deliberate

dim minnow
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||does it specifically state that Witness-precursors made these "glass-minds"?||

worldly river
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No but again, ||if those are the Vex as we know them I doubt they were subjugated for that purpose||

next bobcat
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What if, since the vex can time travel, they went back in time and told the witnessā€™s race to create them?

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ā€œA causal loopā€¦ā€

trim grotto
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i have read the lore

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i am free upon lore chat once more

jagged badge
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Eyyy

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Howā€™d you find it?

trim grotto
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check upcoming in the cryptarchy for my live posting reaction

fast tapir
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live Mael reaction

trim grotto
candid inletBOT
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Unknown User

[Message Link](#679928611989356558 message/) to #679928611989356558
ā—This message is from different server so the content and other infos couldn't be displayedā—

Command triggered by maelstronnar. Message link from Ā·
trim grotto
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sort of yes

fast tapir
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it did NOT work

trim grotto
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it did
the link's still there for Eris to use, because she's in the server

fast tapir
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ah

trim grotto
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it just didn't preview, which it wasn't meant to anyway

fast tapir
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thats a pretty cool command actually damn

dim minnow
trim grotto
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Seth's old comment? It's hard to say exactly how it holds up. I had taken to thinking the Winnower itself was a metaphor, a duty the Witness had taken upon itself to uphold. However, now...

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I've half a thought. I'll ponder it.

dim minnow
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||I mean, the book seems to tell us that the Witness ironically grown so far from what it once was that it doesn't even line up to the Winnower allegory in Unveiling anymore, yet it still wants to embody it.||

next bobcat
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Maelstronnar do you use strand?

jagged badge
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Maelstrandar

blazing wasp
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Mealstrander

trim grotto
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I'm a lad of variety

next bobcat
calm granite
fast tapir
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oh man

next bobcat
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i had to

trim grotto
next bobcat
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jokes aside, we got omnioculus before the veil. what

trim grotto
next bobcat
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the whole design and the exotic perk reference the veil directly, i'm just not sure why bungie would do that. i don't see really any other reference like that except for prophecy

jagged badge
fast tapir
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"Beyond the Veil" may be referring to a different Veil?

jagged badge
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Itā€™s the Void

trim grotto
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It means shadow. Invisibility. The Void.

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It has nothing to do with The Veil

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It doesn't reference it

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I mean, heck, it released in Chosen. That was a Beyond Light Season, two years before Lightfall.

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Sorry I don't mean to be rude
It's just that this is a coincidence of terminology and there's no linking thread beyond the perk name

next bobcat
trim grotto
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Those are just eyes

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Like the armour itself

jagged badge
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šŸ‘ļø šŸ‘ļø
šŸ‘ļø šŸ‘ļø šŸ‘ļø
šŸ‘ļø šŸ‘ļø

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Fuck

trim grotto
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smooth

fast tapir
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close enough

next bobcat
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i thought it was eerily similar though

jagged badge
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Not really

next bobcat
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i saw those eye patterns on some lightfall thing tho

trim grotto
next bobcat
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no, but that's cool

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leviathan eye?

trim grotto
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Ahsa, you mean? On Neptune? I doubt it, no.

next bobcat
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ok

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are the leviathans connected to calus leviathan? probably not but

trim grotto
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There's only one known Leviathan (creature), which died on Fundament. And no, it isn't related.
There are the Torobatl Sand Worms, which the Leviathan (ship) is based on.

next bobcat
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sand worms, worm gods, fundament leviathans, leviathan ships, ahsa, etc.

jagged badge
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(Iā€™ve never watched Dune ever)

next bobcat
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ahem what

trim grotto
jagged badge
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Dune thing

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ā€˜Cause sand worms

next bobcat
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ok

trim grotto
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Never seen it

jagged badge
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Neither have I

next bobcat
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might watch it

jagged badge
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Iā€™m just being exposed to a lot of content about it on Twitter and TikTok rn haha

trim grotto
fast tapir
# trim grotto This?

i always thought that was a mural for "The watcher" Soteria
Yknow.. because of the big eye lol

trim grotto
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Leviathan is the wrong term for her

next bobcat
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||can we consider my theory that the vex traveled back in time and helped create themselves?||

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not sure if i should spoiler that but better safe than sorry

trim grotto
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You aren't required to but it is polite

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And I don't do that tier of theory
I prefer stronger baselines of evidence to begin from
Not that your theory is invalid, of course

next bobcat
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||it's somewhat backed by the vex mythoclast flavour text, "a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism". this leads me to believe the vex can somehow force spacetime to contain a paradox without branching timelines, because we do know that there are seperate timelines||

trim grotto
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I would point out that Mythoclast is connected to the Vault of Glass, which had an isolated and unique level of control over time and timelines, and was very likely powered or fuelled by the Black Heart, which was itself a paracausal artifact - and since destroyed, rendering the Vault unique.

marsh fern
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are pineapples extinct in destiny?

trim grotto
marsh fern
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protect pineapples from the witness

shadow crypt
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Are there restaurants?

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Imagine some Guardians chilling eating lunch

eager trout
marsh fern
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ramen shops spaunchbawb

trim grotto
marsh fern
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mael are there any diagrams of kiwicumbers?

trim grotto
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I... don't think so.

marsh fern
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i'm really confused as to what the hell it looks like

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i'm imaging either a cucumber with kiwi skin or a cucumber shaped kiwi

trim grotto
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A kiwi with cucumber skin so you can actually eat the skin of the fruit

marsh fern
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i mean technically you can eat kiwi skin

trim grotto
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Yeah but
Gross

marsh fern
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watched my nana do it

ember storm
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tough beans

warm gazelle
# shadow crypt Are there restaurants?

despite it being the last city on earth and much of the time saving it from certain destruction is the objective of the story, it doesn't seem like we know much about the City at all tbh

ember storm
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itā€™s just because stuff like restaurants is basically inconsequential and just a given

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itā€™s a literal city with flying ships and highways

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people arenā€™t exactly struggling for basic necessities

chrome fog
chrome fog
ember storm
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they immortalized him for his indescribable debt

chrome fog
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And I believe one of the Guardian Games entries - the one where three Titans bet on Hunters - features the bookie eating a burrito with kimchi in it

ember storm
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the shame corner

chrome fog
chrome fog
warm gazelle
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Has there ever been an attempt to permanently colonize another planet or make another city in the City age?

dim minnow
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at least not any known ones

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there are rumore underground cities known as free capitals

marsh igloo
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Why didnā€™t Ikora simply just lean out the HELM window and shoot the Witness while they were talking to the Traveler, are they stupid

jagged badge
trim grotto
ember storm
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what if we tried really hard and asked the darkness very very politely to leave it alone

next bobcat
chrome fog
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They are proposing Ikora Looney Tunes a window open in orbit to shoot at at the Witness as the Traveler is blasting a powerful beam of Light at it, i think they be trolling

fresh zephyr
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Hey question how did the pyramids get titan

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Like did they hide it

trim grotto
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The Pyramids took Titan, Io, Mercury, and Mars. When they invaded Sol, they planted themselves on each celestial body, and eventually... a huge burst of energy, and the celestial bodies were gone. Replaced with black anomalous voids which held the same gravitational weight.

ember storm
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the power to take is literally the power to take things and bring them somewhere else

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the witness is capable of doing it to enemies during the process of becoming Taken, as well as planets and moons

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ā€œwhereā€ they go isnā€™t really known

chrome fog
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(Also if it helps to find resources on this, the planetary destinations were Taken at the very end of Season of Arrivals, there was a viewing event where Guardians could enter the Last City and watch the Traveler reform her shell, to which it transitioned to the destination menu and showed a mass of Darkness overtake the destinations mentioned, before a burst of Light from the Traveler repelled any further encroachment by the Pyramids)

ember storm
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wormspore confirmed

warm gazelle
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if they can just take planets, why didn't they take earth

trim grotto
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Because of the Traveler. She pushed back their advance at the end of Arrivals.

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It was a very flashy event wherein she reformed her cracked shell

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Went from shattered as she was post-Red War to whole again

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Shard notwithstanding

jagged badge
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But also, because the Witness didnā€™t want to

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As weā€™ve found out

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The Witness hasnā€™t gone with the most optimal approach of just blitzing us with its immense power because it is acting out of malice

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Itā€™s making us suffer and fear and itā€™s trying to crush our hope

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Not to demoralise us as a tactic, mind

ember storm
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the witness was sort of hoping we'd become willing servants

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taken are nice, but ultimately reductive

jagged badge
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But literally just out of malice and cruelty

ember storm
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the witness is fully convinced its correct

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basically, it wanted to do a little trolling to make even the traveler's chosen last stand meaningless by attempting to gain the favor of guardians

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didn't really work out this time around, but it wasn't unprecedented

warm gazelle
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...does that trick usually work for the Witness?

trim grotto
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Many more of us would have too, were it not for the cautioning wisdom of Elsie, teaching us how to wield Stasis.

chrome fog
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To a very contrived extent, the Hive are also a product of this approach from the Witness, having swiped the proto-hive under its indirect influence before the Traveler could bestow its blessing upon the species

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Not to mention that the virtues of their civilization developed on their home planet Fundament, itself being a constant battleground for survival for a dozen or so species with a handful of newcomers being dumped upon the planet by its moon, demonstrate the Witnessā€™ belief of all existence being strife

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To a lesser degree, the Sword Logic had already been present in proto-hive culture, but the pact with the Worm Gods simply made it their only way to live, with no consideration as to alternatives

dark linden
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Is there any lore behind Hawkmoon?

chrome fog
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The current one in D2 was forged from a piece of the Traveler, the process of which was guided by her personally

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And was made by us and Crow

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Mainly us

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It was a whole exotic mission, should be coming back soon

warm gazelle
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somehow they made it worse than the d1 version

trim grotto
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Woah woah woah hang on

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The D1 version was entirely, unfairly luck based

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It could randomly 1 shot

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This version works on the skill of the user and rewards them appropriately, and has different customisation

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The D1 version was inconsistent at best

chrome fog
trim grotto
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A lot of people prefer it immensely

chrome fog
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Because itā€™s at least a guaranteed damage increase for the last round in the chamber if you donā€™t fudge up your shots too much

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As opposed to randomly assigned bullet for extra damage

trim grotto
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Even at its worst it is a high stat, consistent handcannon

warm gazelle
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fair, i feel like d2 has way more really good hand cannons than d1 did though, so the competition is just fiercer. even though in d1 hand cannons were ridiculously strong too

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i will stick with round robin for now, maybe i'll give hawkmoon another try though

subtle stream
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when are we killing xivu arath

chrome fog
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When we get to it

fast tapir
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dont worry we will turn her into a gun eventually

chrome fog
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At best one-sixteenth of our exotic weapons are living beings turned into guns, the rest are just the natural escalation of throwing orbs of volatile materials or a manufacturerā€™s purported masterpiece

trim grotto
jagged badge
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Woah, a new Consensus member Iā€™ve never seen before!

trim grotto
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moff

blazing wasp
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Goth

warm gazelle
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worse, even

trim grotto
warm gazelle
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I mostly play PvE so maybe they're better in PvP but like, Salvation's Grip just seems... totally useless.

trim grotto
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Salvation's Grip was the original Stasis Exotic. It was pretty much useless on launch, but was recently reworked and buffed. It's quite a bit stronger now, though you need a proper build to make the most of the crystals it generates.

warm gazelle
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ahhh

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I didn't notice older exotics being worse than newer ones though tbh. in fact i was surprised by how some OG D1 exotics held up. Like Thunderlord is actually fairly decent.

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And I think Thorn is pretty good too.

trim grotto
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Thunderlord was also buffed a while back. It's quite solid at the moment for general use, even in high end content - just not for DPS.

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Thorn was also very recently buffed, got a catalyst, and was affected by the recent Handcannon buffs, all in one package.

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In PvE one could argue that Osteo is still more effective to pair with Necrotic Grips but Thorn is quite solid across all gamemodes now

warm gazelle
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catalysts are crazy, i wish d1 had them

trim grotto
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Thorn's Catalyst definitely affects PvP moreso than anything else but even so

image.png
warm gazelle
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Not every exotic has a catalyst?

trim grotto
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No, not all.

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Some simply don't need it, and it leaves Bungie an open slot for a unique buff in future should they require it.

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Take Wishender, for example. It has no catalyst, but is quite meta for endgame stuff with Champions like GMs.

warm gazelle
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Hm. I thought Sunshot was already really good, and then I got its catalyst and it was even more impressive.

trim grotto
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Sunshot's Catalyst is as basic as basic gets
A lot of the Y1 Catalysts were like this, mere stat bumps

image.png
warm gazelle
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Right, they got more creative as time went by.

trim grotto
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Indeed they did. Generally speaking, that is.

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A small handful are mere Legendary perks tacked on

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Still buffs, of course

warm gazelle
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Taking me forever to complete Sleeper Simulant's catalyst perk but I think it's supposed to be a good buff.

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And also D1 nostalgia.

trim grotto
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A rather significant Charge Time reduction, resulting in more ease of use and DPS

jagged badge
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Plus more reserves

chrome fog
empty fern
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D1 exotic armor was certainly something

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Speaking of d1 (yes I know) hereā€™s the question for the day
Do we know how many of these towers are around? So far we know of 3 (maybe more but I forgot)

IMG_6684.jpg
warm gazelle
#

the exotic armor I used in D1 hasn't been brought to D2

empty fern
#

Any other variation of alpha lupi?

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Or the forbidden garrison

warm gazelle
#

Ruin Wings

empty fern
#

Ah

dusty jolt
#

So does Eva have a ghost?

jagged badge
#

Evaā€™s not a Lightbearer

dusty jolt
#

Wait really

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I've been lied to again

jagged badge
#

Who did it

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Whoā€™s the culprit

errant olive
#

probably because Eva's head disappears once every 3 meetings with her

dusty jolt
chrome fog
#

She old granny

dusty jolt
#

Strange

chrome fog
#

Mortals still exist; Hawthorne is particularly significant as she assisted the Vanguard heads with the Red War effort, there are the Forces of the Last City, a military group that defends and polices the City, and Devrim Kay was part of another paramilitary if not the Forces still

#

Amanda was also a very significant mortal human as well as a majority of the Awoken, they are still human despite the paracausal augmentation their recreation within the Distributary has provided them with

dusty jolt
warm gazelle
#

So thats why Awoken exist??? Bruh I spent all of D1 confused about them.

jagged badge
shadow crypt
#

Did the Witness or its species create the Vex?

chrome fog
#

Apparently the Final Shape CE gives some introspection into this, though only vaguely

chrome fog
#

Hence, the rabbit embryo is a funny lore meme

shadow crypt
chrome fog
#

So is doghive and cow thing, the latter also being in the same book as Maraā€™s origins

warm gazelle
#

Bro a rabbit getting knocked up determined the course of the Destiny universe

chrome fog
dusty jolt
#

Bring that theory back

chrome fog
eager trout
dusty jolt
#

Nice

chrome fog
#

Both because eugh that did not need to be said and also like. yeah, animals procreate, most buological life procreates

next bobcat
#

Um

#

What did I just read

trim grotto
#

Hey @tawdry mauve and @hollow hinge
In retrospect, just-woke-up-and-in-a-rush me wasn't very clear with what he was saying earlier, and was unfairly blunt.

Amongst folks who have studied this, Seraph Shield is considered to be an unusual topic. That mountain, as you both have said, is an exact match for a location near Santiago, Peru. This is not under debate.
The problem arises when studying the surrounding landscape, none of which is recognisable as nearby locations.
As kuzmoo said, the land may have changed in the times long passed. Yes, I completely agree, which is part of the problem. This means we cannot fact check the accuracy of this map or its reliability.
Compounding evidence from other topics, of which there are many, do place the Last City in South America, especially the north. Santiago is further south than expected, though still plausible.

Now, I don't mean to say the location of the Last City isn't in or near Santiago. I merely mean to say that Seraph Shield is not a piece of evidence we can confirm as being reliable, and as someone who studies the lore regularly, I know what unconfirmed evidence can do to the game. Heck, it's why Eramis is called Eramis. It was Veekris!

To recap, yes, it does show that mountain, and yes, the implication is that the Last City is near Santiago, which is in South America like other evidence suggests. However, as an independent piece of information, it is unconfirmed at best due to the inconsistent Earth mapping.
It is not out of the question that this Earth map uses random chunks of actual geography, leaving this as a coincidence.

I don't think it's entirely invalid, but I would like to recommend a grain of salt be taken when referring to such a precise statement as "confirmed".

Alrighty
I've got to get back to work
Enjoy your day you two! Or evening, or what have you. I don't know your timezones.

tawdry mauve
#

i actually think its basically and purposefully kept vague

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like its obvious they wont tell us where it is exactly

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and i think theres some charm in that

#

also its a big fucking city, chances are it most definitely merged with any nearby cities

trim grotto
# tawdry mauve also its a big fucking city, chances are it most definitely merged with any near...

I would agree, except...
"City" is a misnomer; it has been a misnomer since this place's inception. It is a chaotic sprawl of tents and shabbyĀ lean-tos. There is not a single permanent structure among them. The streets are nothing more than muddy pathways that smell of waste and smoke. But the people! Neither Orin nor Gol have seen so many people in all their lives.
If they did build on the ruins of a city, they must've really been ruins - no buildings remained.

chrome fog
#

Gl working, hope you have good patrons Mael!

warm gazelle
#

I find it difficult to believe that in all the years since the city's founding, not a single permanent structure has ever been erected.

trim grotto
#

I think you misunderstand

#

This quote was from the very beginning of the Last City in the Dark Ages, back when it wasn't really a city at all.

#

The suggestion was that the Last City may have been built upon the ruins of a city
This quote suggests otherwise, unless that ruined city was so thoroughly demolished as to not even have a single building remain

warm gazelle
#

right, that makes more sense

#

cuz this doesn't look like a bunch of tents to me

20240320171347_1.jpg
chrome fog
#

Doesn't Zavala's origin video show the small gathering of tents evolving into what would be the Last City?

trim grotto
#

It does

chrome fog
#

Neat

eager trout
#

I've got an actual fair matchup here:

#

The Traveler (Genshin Impact) vs the Guardian.

ember storm
#

Donā€™t know it

eager trout
#

If you did, you'd know it's fair

jagged badge
#

Sweeper Bot sweeps

chrome fog
#

Guardian. The giant robots roaming Teyvat that are ntire miniboss battles unto themselves and the Fatui as well being a pain in the ass to deal with show that the Traveler (Genshin) would not be able to deal with the zippy Guardian and their entire vault worth of firepower

#

Sure, the Traveler (Genshin) might potentially have more potent magic but 1) it's only an ability and then a super opposed to the 2/3 abilities and super with the Guardian as well as exotic armor and weapon abilities, and 2) mobility is fucking miserable in Genshin it felt genuinely criminal how much the stamina bar cripples enjoyable movement when the previous year MiHoyo released A Post-Honkai Odyssey (APHO) with double jumps and interesting vertical movement mechanics, any Guardian that wants to go fast will legit be able to outrun anything the Traveler (Genshin) throws at them

#

Gonna stop there but genuinely the movement in Genshin pisses me off so much because Honkai 3rd Impact at time of Genshin's release had no jump button except for APHO and even then it feels like it has better mobility

eager trout
#

But that's just gameplay Traveler-

#

What about lore-accurate Traveler?

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(For mobility reference, watch the cutscene from the Scaramouche battle)

eager trout
jagged badge
#

Okay but Sweeper Bot still sweeps

eager trout
#

I don't know how much the Guardian is able to do in lore, but at least without gameplay limitations, the Traveler and the Guardian are pretty much on the same level, being able to use 5 elements and such. Probably the only advantage the Guardian has is healing and revival.

eager trout
eager trout
#

I mean, so has the Guardian.

#

So in terms of feats they're pretty much equal.

eager trout
#

The older robots are among the weaker enemies now

#

Especially because the Mirror Maiden (an enhanced human) is somehow tankier than robot that is, by function, a tank.

#

Ok, how powerful is Clovis Bray? Because I have a matchup for him.

NPC_Il_Dottore.png
shadow warren
#

The guardian vs every swiftie

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After the Travis Kelce breakup

chrome fog
chrome fog
eager trout
warm gazelle
#

i would take my berserker any day tbh

#

she barely uses guns in the first place

trim grotto
#

Clovis is a bit complex.

eager trout
# chrome fog Orbital station nuke

I wouldn't be surprised if Dottore had a way to stop that. We don't know his power level, we don't know his feats, all we know is that he's on par with the gods (which ones? I don't know, but there's probably a considerable power gap between the gods of Teyvat and the gods of Celestia).

warm gazelle
#

I mean what's the point of debating a duel between characters when we don't know the power level/abilities of one of them

eager trout
#

Because they're similar in that they have several bodies, a robot factory

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Are very evil

#

Both are mad scientists

trim grotto
#

Are we referring to Clovis as a human? He was an old man who's flesh was falling off the bone.
Clovis the AI in charge of the DSC, but has no body?
Clovis controlling the Morningstar orbital station and powered by nuclear energy and weaponises orbital bombardments?
Clovis-1 through 43, wielding Lament?
Banshee-44, the quiet gunsmith?

warm gazelle
#

is clovis bray very evil, or just standard egomaniac evil

eager trout
#

What about...Clovis Bray in his prime?

trim grotto
# warm gazelle is clovis bray very evil, or just standard egomaniac evil

How about completely amoral human testing resulting in many deaths
The shooting down of escape shuttles
Sexist for good measure
Watched his son die and had his granddaughter watch too
Killed his other granddaughter because she defied him, only to remake her Exobody and lie, saying she was compromised by the Vex

So on so forth

trim grotto
eager trout
#

Yeah, I suppose

#

But with whatever equipment he had

#

I'm going to assume both Clovis and Dottore in their prime were physically average

#

With their threatening part being their inventions

trim grotto
#

Well, Braytech was essentially the leading technological superpower of the Golden Age. A lot of Rasputin's tech can be traced back to CB, along with tech such as the Warsats, weapons like the Aurora Knives, so on.

But Clovis Bray himself wasn't a fighter. He was a scientist, head of a family and founder of a company.
His weapon was his brilliance and his amoral experiments.

eager trout
#

So if Clovis were to fight he would probably just use some overpowered giant laser tank

trim grotto
#

When Elsie returned to Europa to destroy the Vex and shut down the Volantis portal, he contacted Hannu 2 and had the Morningstar orbital station fire an orbital maser at her, which in turn detonated the antimatter explosive she was carrying.

#

He didn't even have to move.

chrome fog
eager trout
#

Well, the one time we saw Dottore do something close to a fight he was mind controlling people and just standing there in the middle.

jagged badge
#

Huh

trim grotto
#

Clovis-1 through 43, however, is a different story.

He wielded the Lament and lead the charge against the Vex during climax of the Vex/Exo War, dying 42 times but being rebuilt each time, and each time returning to push further against the lines of Vex.

jagged badge
#

Moth, for some reason your pfp is really inconsistent for me

trim grotto
#

His Exobody was more advanced than most.

trim grotto
jagged badge
#

Why is Discord having a moment

trim grotto
eager trout
#

Ok, something to note about Dottore is that he has several "segments" (which are basically clones/robots of himself from different points in his life)

#

I mean, at one point the one in his prime destroyed the others, but still

jagged badge
eager trout
#

Ok, he does have a bunch of feats, but none showing his full power.

blazing wasp
#

Mael is a hive vampire who turns into a mother instead of a bat

#

Moth

#

Moth

eager trout
blazing wasp
#

MOTH

#

That's twice today

eager trout
#

BECOMES MOMMY????

blazing wasp
#

First the how incident now this

chrome fog
#

Mov

#

What

chrome fog
#

Oh ok

trim grotto
#

Assuming that the Exo production lines were fully active and the cloud storage system for Exominds was online, Clovis or any Exo could simply return any time.

This is not the case in modern times of course, it failed mid Vexo war, but you're speaking hypotheticals anyway.

chrome fog
#

Moth-er

trim grotto
#

Moff

blazing wasp
#

Goth

chrome fog
#

Loff

jagged badge
trim grotto
#

Goth moth

chrome fog
#

But going back to the original discussion, Dottore has not demonstrated that many concrete feats, yes?

eager trout
#

Dottore known abilities and feats:
-Mad Science
-Can turn people into golem/robot like abominations
-Has something that produces a sound that knocks people unconscious (worked on the Traveler, who is known for being resistant/immune to many things due to being from another world)
-Manipulated the Akasha system (which was created by a goddess who was the avatar of the "tree" that keeps all the information of Teyvat) to send information into the subconscious of people.
-Did something to trap the consciousness of a goddess and prevent her from switching bodies through the Akasha.
-Experimented with god remains and manage to weaponize them to some extent (by putting them in someone).
-One of the "treatments" he did on someone caused that person to turn into sand when he escaped the "hospital".
-Strangled someone with his bare hands so he's at least strong enough to do that.
-Created a mechanical "god" by using Scaramouche (a puppet/robot) as a base (likely did this with help but probably did most of the job).
-The age of the original (that isn't a segment) is unknown.
-Could probably find a cure for anything if he wanted to but he prefers to experiment.
-Has an entire factory dedicated to manufacturing Ruin Guards, which are made with an advanced technology lost to time (and the fact their nation of origin was destroyed).

eager trout
chrome fog
#

Ok so the biggest feat heā€™s had from this list is the scaramouche mech

empty fern
#

Wait genshin lore in destiny?

chrome fog
#

With a majority of his activity and research being into hijackingā€™s the mystical information network of the Dendro land

#

Itā€™s a dry season and, uh

eager trout
empty fern
#

Oh

chrome fog
#

We have been bouncing back to Clovis frequently enough I believe it might be ok

#

Uh

empty fern
#

At this point just compare Clovis and the IRS or something

chrome fog
#

This discussion ok Ven? We could move to off topic if needed

eager trout
empty fern
#

Ven lurking?

eager trout
#

Oh! I got another thing

chrome fog
#

Always lurking, so she says

chrome fog
empty fern
shadow crypt
#

Are the Taken controlled by the Witness?

chrome fog
#

Mostly, yeah

#

But also theyā€™re not really being led at the moment

shadow crypt
#

What other enemy factions does the Witness control?

shadow crypt
empty fern
#

Scorn usually

#

And hive

#

And some fallen

#

And a lot of shadow cabal

eager trout
empty fern
#

Iffy on vex tho

#

Delusional

chrome fog
#

For the Hive and Fallen, it was very indirect; however Scorn and the Shadow Legion have been directly organized and rallied by the Witness for its own ends

#

And Taken, and Vex kinda

chrome fog
#

And again, the nuclear space station

#

Which wouldā€™ve taken out Europa

eager trout
#

Well, he's part of the Fatui, who have the goal to "burn the old world", though Dottore probably has his own goals.

eager trout
chrome fog
eager trout
chrome fog
#

And again, none of Teyvat has really demonstrated goals beyond the planet which it resides upon

eager trout
#

Khaenri'ah did, and they got nuked for it

#

Currently the only ones known to be from outside are the twins, and Celestia.

#

And the whale

chrome fog
#

Whereas Clovis established the Warsat network and had a whole-ass plan to take over the Travelerā€™s position as god of humanity, as ineffective he would be in such a position considering Rasputin got fucking bodied by the Pyramids with no impact upon the the enemy ships

eager trout
#

Hmm...so a better matchup would be Clovis (no satellite) against all of Khaenri'ah

chrome fog
#

Also going back to the clones, are they produced with a consistent process or what, as the Exo rebuilding would give Clovis an edge depending on the way the cloning works

eager trout
#

I have no idea

#

All I know is they can work independently of each other but might be able to communicate telepathically

chrome fog
#

So then in that feat Clovis trumps again

eager trout
#

Ok, let's see who wins in terms of evil and crimes.

jagged badge
#

Sweeper Bot still

eager trout
#

-During his student days in the Akademiya he took one of his classmates on what I assume she assumed was a date or just a "research trip" into the forest, then strangled her to death and tried to make it look like she had been attacked by cougars.
-He also did something that got him expelled from the Akademiya by the guys who were willing to keep their goddess locked up in a cage.
-Illegal, amoral, inhumane experimentation on humans.
-Kidnapping (probably, I'm not sure but I think he did)
-Murder in all degrees
-Experimenting with god remains on people (very painful)
-Got families into giving him their sick children (who had eleazar) with the promise to cure their illness (he just used them for terrible experiments).
-What he did to Scaramouche to prepare him for the mech was essentially torture.
-Mind controlled people to use them as possible meat shields.
-He burnt down the tree that keeps all the information of Teyvat (and essentially keeps it going); in a dream, but who knows what the dream meant.
-Kept several people, even kids, in a secret hospital within a hospital where he would experiment on them to find a cure for eleazar; and one of the people who escaped turned into sand.

Now, in terms of named crimes, he has:
-kidnapping (likely)
-murder (of all degrees)
-illegal experimentation
-torture
-child abuse
-corruption
-assault(ish)
-identity theft (or pretending to be someone I assume isn't real)
-whatever you classify the whole Tatarigami incident as (the part that killed a lot of people was caused by the device he told Scaramouche to take to the source of the energy that would supposedly stop it)
(I'm probably forgetting a lot of things)

#

He also sends his agents to "silence" those who work for him that might compromise his secrets.

chrome fog
#

Clovis II and basically the entire Europa Braytech facility would be pretty comparable to this list

#

As in, they were test subjects to the Exo projectā€™s development, which did not always end well

#

Clovis II ripped himself apart as the first mindscan transferred into an Exo body, the lack of human sensation turning him insane and making him disembowel his new body

#

And Clovis had Elsie next to him watching the entire time

#

And just gave her a lollipop for the whole thing

#

And routinely grew replacement organs in pigs to mitigate the effects of his genetic disease

#

The Titan exotic Stasis arms have Clovis trying to channel Stasis through an Exo

#

The ice bits on that exotic are remnants of said Exo

gentle geyser
chrome fog
#

No wait

#

A return to form for me

eager trout
#

Can Guardians age?

#

What are Psions?

jagged badge
eager trout
#

Which faction are the Psions from?

jagged badge
#

Cabal

shadow crypt
#

Psions were their own race before the cabal

#

Pretty sure the cabal enslaved them

#

Or something like that

#

Thereā€™s still a huge plot point too

#

One of the main psions or whatever

#

Something with them

#

I forget

jagged badge
#

Eventually Calus sought to free the Psions but Otzot the Freeborn rebelled against this and joined the Midnight Coup in having Calus exiled

#

Later on Caiatl would free the Psions herself though

shadow crypt
jagged badge
#

Yes

shadow crypt
jagged badge
pure tree
#

wait, is Sol Divisive hostile to the rest of the vex or do they only clash when theres a conflict of interest? and vice versa

trim grotto
pure tree
#

ok

trim grotto
#

Technically they seek the same thing all Vex do, but differ on the specifics, the path

pure tree
#

after more lore about sol divisive was introduced in D2, esp about fighting other vex, i did wonder for a bit why there were non sol divisive collectives defending the black garden gate and stuff insdie the black garden itself

ember storm
#

lore question

#

why didnā€™t Calus just break into veil containment in the first place

#

is he stupid

#

other lore question

#

why is cane flex have a unicorn face

dim minnow
ember storm
#

ordering his troops to half ass their own jobs isnā€™t laziness

#

itā€™s just legitimate stupidity

dim minnow
#

Calus spent all this time sucking up to the Witness and when he finally got his desired position he realized it wasn't really worth the effort

novel shoal
#

buddy apparently likes Taxidermy

#

and it's not just to animals

#

buildings apparently

chrome fog
#

It's clear the relation between Calus and the Witness is meant to illustrate how selfish and narcissistic nihilistic pessimism is, especially espousing how you know more about the truth of reality; the takeaway that Calus had in listening to the Witness is a way how to subjugate and enforce dominion over others, which was extremely helpful to Calus who has the "Take over the world and make it all serve me!" vision for existence

#

As ridiculous as the Chronicon is and illustrates just how ignorant Calus is of the broader universe, it also demonstrates 1) that the Final Shape is dependent on the individual, and is existence in their image; and 2) Calus' Final Shape is everything being made to serve him and entertain him

empty fern
#

Sounds like quite the life

dim minnow
#

just noticed an interesting parallel between us and the Witness

#

so Entelechy makes a point on how the Witness took away what it once was essentially reshaping itself into something unfamiliar

#

and this is actually not too unlike what happens to Guardians

#

they die and are rezzed as a blank slate

#

their past is gone and they forgot who they are

#

which puts a whole different meaning behind us being the Traveler's final argument

#

as if this is the Traveler's way of saying "maybe the Universe doesn't suck, maybe it's just you"

#

on a different note, I also wanted to looj back on something Savathun said during Witch Queen

#

"...But if we don't know where we came from, how will we know where to go?"

#

funny how the Witness wiped away its past and now it is moving in a direction so different from its intended path

chrome fog
#

I think that perspective leads into an interesting conversation of what guides our paths for our lives, that while yes, history and the past is important in informing us what works and what doesnā€™t, we are still wholly capable of moving forward and not allow ourselves to be shackled by said past

#

Sometimes it is all about just taking a lead of faith, of stepping forward and being the first to deal with what you are struggling with. Sometimes is about making your own Fate rather than trying to determine what it will be

blazing wasp
#

The Travelers viewpoint might be the "a uncaring universe doesn't make it a cruel one"

#

The universe couldn't even give a single shit about you, that's why it isn't cruel, nor kind

warm gazelle
#

So is it the Light that stops Guardians from getting Taken like the Hive, Fallen, Cabal, etc?

jagged badge
#

Yeah

warm gazelle
#

So that means people like Osiris and Elsie could be Taken.

#

And also that Lucent Hive can't be.

ember storm
#

yeah but thereā€™s basically zero point

jagged badge
#

Zero Point from Fortnite??

chrome fog
#

(Which I've totally stolen from Norm McDonald's response to Neil DeGrasse Tyson espousing the same sentiment of "The universe is uncaring")

warm gazelle
#

Taking him would be a big blow

ember storm
#

the witness is currently at the endgame stage

#

we have one key to our success and it is crow

#

anything else is a waste of time to the witness beyond dealing with us directly

#

to add to this, Osiris is never in the field

#

there would be zero gain to the witness in taking him when it can just kill him, but heā€™s never outside the city or helm anymore, so thereā€™s no chance

rich veldt
#

yeah why go to the effort of taking them when killing them does the same

chrome fog
#

As much as it gives an advantage, it is already at the point of achieving its end goal, anything more would be more detrimental as it would distract from whatever itā€™s doing rn

gentle geyser
#

Humans compared to literally every other enemy faction are probably the weakest choice for something to take

#

Id argue thralls are a better choice than humans

chrome fog
#

Thatā€™s not the point though

#

For one, Osiris and Elsie have more immediate capabilities wielding Paracausality via Strand and Stasis respectively

#

For two, they would also be key targets as they are close to us both personally and as members of the same group, meaning that should we be without either oneā€™s guidance, we could see a negative impact on newer users of Stasis and Strand not receiving proper guidance

naive raptor
#

To anyone that knows the lore behind this, what is the story behind The Great (Ahamkara) Hunt? And why is Riven the last Ahamkara?

jagged badge
#

The Vanguard reached the consensus that the Ahamkara were too dangerous and too manipulative to be allowed to live. The Reef aided the Vanguard in the Great Hunt (although Mara did have slight ulterior motives in that she wished to have the only Ahamkara left in secret)

#

Riven and Taranis were the only known survivors of the Great Hunt. Taranis would die later on though, leaving Riven as the last known Ahamkara when we fought her

naive raptor
dim minnow
naive raptor
trim grotto
#

oh god here we go

jagged badge
#

Moff!

#

Grand Moff Cryptarchin!

#

Nailed it thumbsupman

chrome fog
#

Nice

chrome fog
#

?

#

Huh, how do you get the bot to show the message

trim grotto
#

by linking the actual message

#

you just

#

linked us to the chat we're already in

candid inletBOT
#
dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)

Message Link to #šŸ“šlore-discussion

  1. She was forced to work in the Last City as an Emissary as punishment for calling an airstrike that killed 3 fireteams of Guardians and their Ghosts who were fighting deeply entrenched Fallen Wolves.
  2. While in exile, she showed great disdain towards the people of the city thinking that the "don't know their place".
  3. Between Red War and Forsaken, when Cayde apprehended Fikrul and Uldren, she decided to lock Uldren up in the Prison of Elders alongside Fikrul and the other Scorn Barons and made sure only her, Cayde, and Variks were the only ones to know that the Prince was still alive.
  4. After this, she left the task of curing Uldren and Fikrul's respective conditions solely on Variks' shoulders which could be seen as one of the leading factors behind his decision to abandon the Prison starting the vents of Forsaken. Could of asked techeuns or even the Last City to help, but no, must not make her people any less happy I guess.
  5. She heavily despises Zavala even going to the point to where she fantasizes about being superior to him and mopping up his dissolved remains off of the floor. Not even joking here.
  6. I really doubt she had no idea what Uldren was planning until she failed to stop him at the EDZ. She may not have known about Riven being behind it, but she had to know that Uldren took over the Tangled Shore so he could get to the Dreaming City. Maybe the Vanguard would have gotten involved if they knew Uldren could unleash a Taken Ahamkara, and maybe the Dreaming City fisaco wouldn't have been so bad. Instead Petra kept it a secret until after Uldren was able to reach his goal.
  7. She wasn't even the one who summoned Guardians to aid the Awoken in the Dreaming City, that would be Paladin Kamala Rior.
  8. Variks questioned quite a few of Petra's decisions as acting regent, including her lack of action towards preventing the Scorned Barons from growing in power.
  9. Despite everything that has happened thus far, she has refused to change unlike Mara.
Command triggered by dovadah. Message link from Ā·
trim grotto
#

don't forget gaslighting Crow about Fikrul in Warlord's Ruin

chrome fog
#

Oh dammit

#

I went to the last time it got posted and thought the thing at the top linked to his original message

signal pawn
#

How powerful is the glow well in ordinary people? I mean, if someone loses an arm or limb, maybe they can regenerate?

dim minnow
signal pawn
#

I mean I guardian can lost his head and revive perfectly again without wounds

dim minnow
#

well, we know that the Radiant buff can be applied to non-Lightbearers

#

case-in-point when Shaw Han used his Golden Gun as a well

#

it enhanced the weapons of the combat frames assisting him

#

though we haven't heard anything else about Light subclass buffs being applied to non-Lightbearers

signal pawn
#

Oh thanks for let me know I was thinking that

dim minnow
#

I was going to note the Firefright lore tab, but it seems what happened there was that the Warlock was a Sunsinger who used Radiance (not to be confused with Well of Radiance)

#

and what happened was that the Cabal legionaries and the House of Light Splicer were emboldened by the sight of it

#

so they weren't really buffed

#

they just got a brief morale boost

#

huh, so the Sunsinger super was mentioned all the way back in Haunted

naive raptor
#

So Dov, with the notes youā€™ve said why Petra is absolutely awful, does this mean that if Petra had dealt with Uldren and the scorned betterā€¦ Cayde would still be alive?

dim minnow
#

so I'd say that if Petra did something to handle it better like maybe reach out to other people for help, then maybe things would have gone better

naive raptor
dim minnow
#

seriously, Petra did not tell anyone else that he was even in there

#

and you really mean to tell me that she had no idea what Uldren was planning?

#

sure, she didn't know about Riven manipulating him and such, but she had to at least suspect that he was in the Tangled Shore for reasons relating to the Dreaming City

naive raptor
dim minnow
#

as for Uldren, she kept his survival a secret because "muh people's happiness"

naive raptor
#

Why couldnt they just execute the barons and/or Uldren? Cayde, Petra, and Variks knew their committed atrocities were too great.

#

Having them all collectively in the Prison of Elders would be an extreme liability as well

dim minnow
#

hell killing him would probably have been unpopular among the rest of the Awoken people

#

it wasn't until the events of Forsaken that Petra realized he had to be put down

naive raptor
dim minnow
#

as for the Scorn, I believe that Petra was hoping that Variks could come up with a way to undo the whole Scorn thing

dim minnow
dim minnow
#

like when Fikrul dies he just comes back

#

in fact it's why he's still around even though he has been killed several times

naive raptor
dim minnow
#

but Variks abandoning the prison and causing the riot freed them

#

and shipping him somewhere else...

naive raptor
#

Dang

dim minnow
#

well, I don't think there was anywhere else for the Awoken to contain him

naive raptor
#

Moment of silence for Variks

dim minnow
#

the Prison of Elders was most likely the Awoken's best confinement

#

plus, Petra wanted to make sure as few people know about them as possible

naive raptor
dim minnow
#

which is also probably why she chose to put him in the PoE

dim minnow
#

and plus as stated, Petra wanted Variks to run experiments to figure out how to undo the scornification and also to try and fix Uldren

#

to sum it all up, Fikrul and Uldren being put in the PoE was a decision made by a combination of Petra wanting to keep them a secret from almost everyone else and her hoping that Variks could find a cure for both of their conditions

naive raptor
#

One thing that doesn't logically add up is her connection with Variks. Sure Variks is a very smart being, but doesn't specialize in dark corruption, like the Techeuns. So how did she come to the conclusion that Variks was the only being capable, and responsible for undoing Uldren and Fikrul's corruption, and not the Techeuns who deal with this stuff like they get paid to do it, and ALSO are more valuable assets to Queen Mara??

trim grotto
dim minnow
#

and Variks was the best guy avalible

#

which she can have the most discretion with

trim grotto
#

Indeed. Who better to understand corrupted Ether than one of the oldest Eliksni alive, Riisborn at that?

#

And a keeper of knowledge.

naive raptor
#

Your knowledge is immense and incredible

trim grotto
#

Dova and I have spent a lot of time learning the lore, haha

chrome fog
#

And the area Petra checked to see if Uldren was still under custody was filled with the same pods, all open

vital lodge
#

where the heck does space grandma go after GG

dim minnow
thorny scarab
#

Why did Sundaresh Lady connect herself to the veil? Was she stupid?

#

Also hello lore chat

#

Itā€™s been a bit

dim minnow
#

I find the dynamic between her and Clovis Bray to be very ironic

#

Clovis went from a very immoral guy to essentially turning out to be a good person while the opposite happened with Maya

#

also just remembered that they finally confirmed the theory that Lakshmi-2 is Maya as an exo to be true

thorny scarab
trim grotto
thorny scarab
#

||Why was there a Ishtar collective logo in Taranisā€™ lair||

trim grotto
#

That surely calls back to the 227, and Praedyth.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

Back in the Golden Age, Dr Maya Sundaresh and her team were simulated by a Vex unit 227 times. It was a situation of significant existential crises for the teams. After calling in Rasputin to free these 227 largely identical copies of the Sundaresh team, they were released into the Vex Network.

#

Praedyth, in the meantime, was one of the original VoG fireteam members, and he died there.

#

However, due to the VoG being full of Shenanigansā„¢ļø, he also exists within the network - and until very recently, it was as a prisoner.

#

In Shadowkeep, we learned of the lore book Aspect, which - in a very confusing way - described the 227 and Praedyth apparently escaping into the Black Garden, for whatever that entails.

thorny scarab
#

Secondary question, where, in space, is the black garden

#

We can clearly see planets looking up

trim grotto
#

227 copies of Dr Maya Sundaresh, Chioma Esi, Shim, Duane-McNiadh. Except not all of them still remain. And Praedyth has no Light.

#

Also, the Black Garden isn't, as far as we know, in space. It is its own dimensional layer, like the Ascendant Plane.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

Also also, the 227 and Praedyth may not exist physically within the Garden, but as flitting programs. The Garden handles... reality, ideas, programs, life, existence, time... very strangely.

#

So we honestly don't know what state they may be in

#

But we expect the first Episode is tied to this

thorny scarab
#

Ah

#

Also, I may be confused on the story, but isnā€™t Praedyth the hunter of the og VoG team?

trim grotto
#

The Warlock
Pahanin was the Hunter, who escaped.

thorny scarab
#

I thought the warlock was erased from time

trim grotto
#

Pahanin developed a fear of being alone, created a machine gun with a sentient AI inside, and was later killed by Dredgen Yor.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
thorny scarab
#

What machine gun was it?

trim grotto
#

Super Good Advice

thorny scarab
thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

It's from D1

trim grotto
#

Erased from time bar a few entries and whispers on the breeze, yet a version of him was trapped within the Vault, despite his body being deceased.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

Perhaps, thanks to the 227, he did. We shall see.

thorny scarab
#

Letā€™s hope

#

Then there was the Titan

#

Who lowkey turned himself into a shield

trim grotto
#

Ah, yes. Kabr the Legionless.

#

Kabr... may also, very, very technically, still exist.

thorny scarab
#

Heā€™s literally a shield now

#

Well, I guess that counts

trim grotto
# 

case Past:

return( i m p o s s i b l e )

// grazing, rocked, major, distilled.

case Present:

return( v e s t i g i a l )

// vault, aegis, awakened, infinite.

case Future:

// return( i n e v i t a b l e )

// light, truth, dark.

if( t h e w a r d e n s s e e t h e BRIGHT a s d e a t h ) &&

( t h e THINKERS e q u a t e BLACK w i t h e n d ) then

^K^K

their/our/their desire is not malevolent it is survival she is/was/is wrong there is no evil there is no despise there is no SEPARATION there is harmony inside if you/you/you allow it

it was/was/was not done i/i speak again and was wrong i am still him and i am now them and THAT IS FUTURE^V^V```
#

If I speak again, I am not Kabr.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

welcome to Vex lore

thorny scarab
#

Wow

thorny scarab
ember storm
#

hello protozoans

thorny scarab
#

How are you today

ember storm
#

tired

#

someone talk about the cow thing

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

It

#

makes

#

...milk

thorny scarab
#

Oh, I thought there was some magical cow in Destiny

#

Nevermind

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

As far as I can tell, the assimilation of Kabr.

thorny scarab
#

Like Ashermere

#

Or was ashermere ripped apart

trim grotto
#

Kabr basically just Vex now.
Asher Mir, as far as we know, was... well, yes, ripped apart, essentially.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

As "ripped apart" as data can be

thorny scarab
#

Ah

#

Poor Kabr

#

Really canā€™t catch a break

#

Does disconnecting Xivu from her throne world make her killable?

trim grotto
#

That's the short of it, yes

thorny scarab
#

If so, why havenā€™t we sent a fireteam after her

trim grotto
#

We've got no idea where she is, she's still an incredibly powerful Hive god, and there's the whole Witness thing to deal with.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

She has retreated and is not currently providing any direct support other than troops. Plus, the Witness is already inside the Traveler. We can't do much about that right now.

thorny scarab
#

Why is the guardian in the moth-gauntlet lore entry so scarred of the moths?

#

I forget the name of the exotic

trim grotto
#

Mothkeeper's Wraps.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

I imagine it's due to the smothering of the Ogre and the fact that they can, y'know, explode.

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

Yes, she worked quickly enough to keep herself safe.

thorny scarab
#

Ah

#

Good on ā€˜er

#

While weā€™re talking exotic armor lore, whatā€™s the deal with the ultra-ugly warlock helmet

#

Cyto-something I think

trim grotto
#

Cyrtarachne's Facade?

thorny scarab
#

I mean the cephalopod one

#

Big, black and gold, ugly

#

Season of the Deep

#

I canā€™t find the exact name

trim grotto
#

Cenotaph

#

Cephalopod is... squid

thorny scarab
trim grotto
#

Pyramid relic from a Pyramid
Basically

thorny scarab
#

Ah

#

Evil?

ember storm
#

itā€™s an object

thorny scarab
ember storm
#

example?

thorny scarab
# ember storm example?

Real world: satanic pentograms
In Destiny: all the evil things weā€™ve turned into guns, as well as evil peoples weapons

trim grotto
ember storm
thorny scarab
ember storm
#

that was justice

thorny scarab
#

Also that horse statue outside Denver Airport

trim grotto
ember storm
#

what

trim grotto
#

šŸ°

thorny scarab
#

We went from talking about the in-universe history of a video game to murderous, evil unborn rabbits

trim grotto
#

that murderous evil unborn rabbit is why Humanity is still alive and why the Awoken exist

thorny scarab
fast tapir
ember storm
#

I will spoil maelā€™s fun

#

when a normal human, Mara once witnessed a coworker get his head split by a melon by a free floating frozen rabbit embryo that was lost from a separate craft and slingshot via the sunā€™s orbit

#

the experience effectively left Mara with a ā€œfuck it we ballā€ mentality which led her to joining the exodus ship that ended up being awoken-fied during the collapse

thorny scarab
chrome fog
#

Oh shit Skwidge, itā€™s been a minute

chrome fog
# thorny scarab Never heard of that

Mara Sov was convinced to go on a colony ship because she saw someone out on a space walk get fuckin beamed through his skull with a stray frozen rabbit embryo ah fuck Waltz got it already, should scrolled further

#

Also morning

warm gazelle
#

Why are the Taken fighting Scorn? Don't they both work for the Witness?

ember storm
#

no

#

dreaming city scorn are under Fikrul

#

regardless the witness also routinely picks up and then disregards its own assets

thorny scarab
ember storm
#

despite the sol divisive continually trying to use its power, the witness has no issue with invading the black garden and destroying them for any reason

thorny scarab
#

When we make it inside the traveler, how could we possibly kill the witness?

ember storm
#

probably not kill

thorny scarab
ember storm
#

but also we know itā€™s going to be a 2-part kind of thing with campaign end and raid

ember storm
#

I just mean in general

#

I really donā€™t think thereā€™s a way to ā€œkillā€ whatever youā€™d call the witness

thorny scarab
#

So tf are we gonna do

ember storm
#

thatā€™s what the dlc is for

#

what do you want me to say

thorny scarab
#

I mean like

#

If we donā€™t kill the witness

ember storm
#

thatā€™s what the dlc is for

thorny scarab
#

Then theyā€™ll probably come back in some for

ember storm
#

if youā€™re just expecting to shoot it and it dies the end, youā€™ll probably be disappointed

thorny scarab
ember storm
#

every other villain in destiny is not the witness

thorny scarab
#

Well yeah

ember storm
#

i donā€™t know how to convey to you that itā€™s just completely different from everything else on a fundamental (haha) level

thorny scarab
#

Also, very funny pun

#

One day I hope we get to go to fundament for one reason or another

warm gazelle
#

all we need to do is give the witness a pepsi

#

and then we'll all be friends

thorny scarab
chrome fog
# warm gazelle Why are the Taken fighting Scorn? Don't they both work for the Witness?

Atm the Taken have no real leader guiding them, theyā€™re more so roaming beasts until a mind which can exert its will over them directs them - in this case, the Ahamkara in the Warlordā€™s Ruin; and Waltz already noted that the Scorn fighting those Taken are under Fikrulā€™s banner, as opposed to those under the Witness - Fikrul has the yellow helmets, Witness has the purple/black ones

thorny scarab
#

Ngl watching Byf makes this chat make a little more sense

chrome fog
#

As much as Byf presents himself as the Big Lore Guyā„¢ļø he is always only going to be Baby's Intro to Destiny Lore

thorny scarab
chrome fog
#

Us

#

And like, almost every Destiny Channel because they want to get in on that crowd since a key component to Destiny is the lore and world building, not just mechanics and kit builds

#

Really, the major issue is that Byf's presentation of the lore doesn't delineate where lore and theory are divided, whether he's speculating on the meaning of a lore tab or if it's genuinely just obvious what is happening

#

That's how you get "And the helmet stayed on" being misinterpreted for years until Byf went back and rectified that the lore tab was more about Shaxx and Mara mourning the loss of their mutual friend, Sjur Eido, not Shaxx and Mara being intimate

#

The former interpretation itself being widely spread majorly due to Byf

thorny scarab
thorny scarab
#

At least, in the stuff Iā€™ve seen

chrome fog
#

Like I said, he serves better as a gateway than an expert on the lore since he doesn't bother to check on what he says, everything on his channel being presented solely by him and him alone, as opposed to a discussion and deliberation between multiple individuals reading the same events and lore entries but bringing together their total understanding for a clearer picture

thorny scarab
chrome fog
#

If he did care about checking his facts, he wouldn't have bothered nuking his discord server for literally no reason; barely even present on Discord plus didn't help the moderation team when they were facing issues

thorny scarab
uneven canyon
dim minnow
#

though it can be noted that the music can be relevant to understanding the feel of something ingame

#

like how Tenebrium (The Veil theme) uses the Pyramid motif to signify that it is related to the Darkness while the tone of the track itself is harmonious like a lot of music relating to the Traveler

#

this is actually what I consider to be one of the earlier hints that the Veil is a Darkness Traveler

chrome fog
#

Also that one tune Savathun used that didn't really go anywhere except proving how easily she can dupe us (The "Moon is made of Cheese" song)

#

The leitmotif in that song had been consistent in the title screen from Shadowkeep to Witch Queen, I believe

#

Only until Lightfall did we see a return to the vocals commonly associated with the Light and the Traveler

pure tree
#

so we know how Eramis felt serving alongside scorn, but do we have any lore about how shadow legion felt about serving along side taken, and specifically taken cabal?

dim minnow
#

Shadow Legion seem to barely have any sentience

pure tree
#

arent there still some non clone cabal tho?

#

like i think caiatl says a large portion is made up of deserters or the original loyalists

dim minnow
#

chances are Calus' allegiance to the Witness saw to it that the loyalists were subjugated

pure tree
#

ah

fresh zephyr
#

It's really cool

dim minnow
#

I'd wager that Look Within is the motif that Bungie uses to signify using Light and Dark to triumph

#

since it originated in BL where we got our first Darkness subclass and then is used again in Lightfall where we got the second one

fresh zephyr
#

Yeah, Beyond Light also snuck in Savathƻn's Song which is really cool

dim minnow
#

that one part in Oneirophobia that starts with the Look Within motif goes so hard

fresh zephyr
#

Where it changes key? Yeah I know what you're on about

dim minnow
#

I recall running Nezarec and we were a hair away from final stand so all throughout the next phase that part just kept on playing on repeat

#

until we started the last damage phase and got to final stand

fresh zephyr
#

I'm replaying Telltale Walking Dead, and it just shows that strong leitmotifs go a long way

bronze stone
#

hey, i'm trying to do everything in order, i've pretty much finished the campaign of beyond light and am wondering when it makes sense to play the crux of stasis mission (that is a recap of beyond light). should i play it now? after doing the raid? after doing (checking on youtube) the seasons of beyond light? what do you suggest?

#

i don't want that the crux of stasis mission spoils anything

trim grotto
bronze stone
trim grotto
#

Those aren't mentioned in the Timeline missions, no.

bronze stone
#

okay thank you <3

chrome fog
#

šŸ«”gl guardian, chronological orderā€™s gonna be a bitch

jagged badge
fresh zephyr
#

I'll have to clip it

jagged badge
#

Holy shit

#

How have I never noticed that as SavathĆ»nā€™s Song

thorny scarab
#

Wait so, Savathun is still alive?

fast tapir
#

yes

thorny scarab
#

And the vanguard have no problem with it?

trim grotto
#

Oh, they do. But enemy of my enemy, you know? And we have Immaru as collateral.

fast tapir
#

yeah

#

if savathun does something bad goodbye immaru

#

actually crazy that she would give up her own ghost to us as collateral

thorny scarab
#

Canā€™t he just

#

disappear

fast tapir
#

nah buddy is in jail trollface

#

im not actually sure tho

#

but Mael probably knows

thorny scarab
#

Also wasnā€™t Immaru with Savathun when she was let free?

fast tapir
#

no

#

she left without him

thorny scarab
fast tapir
#

yeah he was allowed to be called in

#

with permission from the Vanguard

thorny scarab
#

Oh

#

And then they called him back?

fast tapir
#

yeah i believe so

thorny scarab
#

Neat

jagged badge
# 

"Already?" Immaru muttered in disbelief.

Saint's face was hidden beneath his helmet. The lavender ribbons on his armor swayed and trailed with each heavy breath. It took him a moment to acknowledge the Ghost.

"I heard you were in Vanguard custody," Saint said.

"I'm not a prisoner," Immaru sniffed. "More like an insurance policy. Anyway, I could sense something happened and Eris let me come down and check it out."```
thorny scarab
#

Soā€¦ if Savathun does something bad, we are trusting she will just kill Immaru?

#

Or can we forcefully teleport him into our control

jagged badge
fast tapir
#

yeah we will kill him

thorny scarab
#

Ah

fast tapir
#

also i like how the Guardian was apart of a lore book finally during season of the witch

#

unless i am missing something and they were before

eager trout
#

What's the lore on the shiny ball of energy you find on the Moon?

#

Lo-something

shadow warren
#

Toland?

#

He was a guardian in erisā€™s fireteam when they attempted to kill crota and very invested in hive magic. He physically died but his consciousness lives on in his ascendant plane, which is what the ball itself is

#

A really really small ascendant plane

#

I donā€™t think he was killed by crota himself tho. Pretty sure it was a wizard?

#

Deathsinger?

errant olive
#

yes he wanted to study the deathsong so he led eris's fireteam to their death for it. he was exiled by the vanguard for his obsession with the hive so eriana-3 had to seek his help in facing crota, after the vanguard suspended all operation to the moon after the Great Disaster

ember storm
#

heā€™s what we in the business call ā€œnot niceā€

naive raptor
#

"Sector reassessment: Orbital platform active. Orbital platform breached. Status: Calamitous."

chrome fog
#

Yes?

thorny scarab
#

Yā€™all talking Toland?

thorny scarab
chrome fog
#

Heā€™s a stupid nerd

shadow crypt
#

Who or what is the Winnower?

ember storm
#

as of right now, a concept born out of misguided principles or solely as a tactic for manipulation

#

weā€™re only introduced to ā€œThe Winnowerā€ via Unveiling, a source directly from the Witness to influence/deceive

crystal zinc
#

lore wise why cant every weapon be crafted

#

why do some have patterns and some dont

jagged badge
#

Thereā€™s no lore explanation for it

#

Just game balance

crystal zinc
#

aw man