📚lore-discussion

[tropic dew]

im trying to get into witch queen lore and its a bit confusing

[jagged badge]

Oryx, Savathûn and Xivu have normal worms

[tropic dew]

yes but before the hive were hive they were a weaker race

[jagged badge]

They feed their worms and the worms grant power

[chrome fog]

https://youtu.be/rbDn9NGbKO4?si=PZOue1p6INGOjntx

[jagged badge]

Yeah…before they were led into the Deep by the Witness and given the worms by the Worm Gods

[tropic dew]

ok and when oryx kills his worm do the worm gods not do anything against him?

[jagged badge]

Oryx didn’t kill his worm

[tropic dew]

the byf guy said he did

[jagged badge]

I’m inclined to believe you misinterpreted

[chrome fog]

He killed Akka, Akka is not his worm

Akka is a Worm God, whom themselves are independent of the Hive God siblings

[tropic dew]

so he did kill a worm god? and the others didnt do anything?

[chrome fog]

Oryx and his sisters simply have a worm inside them similar to all their subjects

[chrome fog]

That’s the Sword Logic, if you die you didn’t deserve to exist and your killer has proven they deserve existence more than you

Might Makes Right as a genuine source of power

[tropic dew]

oh lol thats convenient

[chrome fog]

Byf tends to flanderize a lot of stuff, he’s good in the same way an audio book is good but more recently his theory crafting has been held as truth when they’re really not

It’s why we call proto-hive Krill, because Byf just arbitrarily gave them that name when it didn’t exist before

[tropic dew]

ok so the worm gods lied to savathun so she would create the hive

[chrome fog]

Via the worm familiar that also gaslit her dad the Osmium King, yes

[tropic dew]

so savathun is like bad bad, or was just tricked

[chrome fog]

And they did so on the order of Rhulk and the Witness, Rhulk beating the shit out of them and holding one of their own hostage and the Witness enticing them with power in the Darkness

[chrome fog]

Bad bad but also tricked

[jagged badge]

In this case I’m more inclined to believe they misinterpreted Byf than saying Byf said Akka was Oryx’s worm

[tropic dew]

ye i probably missheard

[chrome fog]

Same but just warning them for over dependence on Byf

[tropic dew]

i though they made direct pacts with the worm gods

but it was more of a parasite type of deal

[chrome fog]

Kinda? It’s moreso a deal to put Worms in all Hive to which both would reap the benefits of

Worms themselves are somewhat alike to Ahamkara in that they feed on the ebb and flow of reality-as-is and reality-as-desired; for Ahamkara it’s clearly outlined what they need to do to feed off this divide but for worms it’s not quite as clear, however from how the Sword Logic operates I believe they feed off of making Reality-as-is into Reality-as-desired through self effort

[tropic dew]

so they are also bad bad ahamkaras and worms? or is the witness forcing them to go against us

also the witness is a not very menacing villain

[chrome fog]

Bad bad as they both seek out their own agenda, but there’s more that than just if they’re attacking us or not

[chrome fog]

Have you watched the opening cutscene of Lightfall

[tropic dew]

the hive story is def the most intresting ive seen so far but its so confusing

oryx was done with the worm gods right? so he killed 1 to be free he was afraid of the hunger consuming him? or for what reason?

[chrome fog]

No

He wanted power, and the way you gain power via the Sword Logic, is to kill that which is powerful

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[tropic dew]

but he also killed his sisters for it right

but they are still alive

ill go research more

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/books-of-sorrow

Research this, this is their own recording of their own history

[chrome fog]

Yeah, which in their culture is the greatest form of love (also they had their Throneworlds, which they discovered in that very same event)

[tropic dew]

tyvm

leviathan is a good guy right? he looked cool

[chrome fog]

Ahsa is not the Leviathan but also yes the Leviathan is “good” in that he tried to convince the siblings not to take the Worm Gods’ deal

Not to be confused the coincidentally named Leviathan ship, which was Calus’ exile prison-turned-pleasure ship

[tropic dew]

ye trying to google leviathan size but keep getting the ship size

[chrome fog]

Because we don’t get any info on the Leviathan

[tropic dew]

so many "bad" new races/species and no good ones

considering cabal and fallen are kinda neutral

[chrome fog]

There’s no objectively Good or Bad, that’s one of the bigger points of our alliances with the Cabal and Eliksni

Just trajectories, paths individuals take and how that impacts others

[jagged badge]

What about Ahsa?

As a proto-worm, she’s a new species. And she’s definitely an ally

[slim elk]

Could Neomuna be considered a new ally?

Are human true but long seperated from anyone

[jagged badge]

They just humans so not a new race

[slim elk]

Yeah, and aint so much helping and more of another front that Guardians are deployed to

House of Light and Caitals forces have worked with Guardian fireteams..

Most of what we seen in Neomuna is them failing to defend their own city lol

[shadow crypt]

How did Humans get on Neomuna?

[empty fern]

Golden age

[empty fern]

Remember the giant kebab ships in the cosmodrome? That’s how they got there

[jagged badge]

The Exodus Indigo

[worldly river]

Most Ahamkara have been pretty neutral, willing to help humans with their wishes but due to their nature almost always making faustian bargains or deliberating twisting wishes (Taranis was the only one who was pretty much purely benevolent), at least until the City decided to start hunting them down. But the only true "bad guy" one was Riven and only because she was Taken by Oryx. It's likely at least some of Riven's children will become our allies when they eventually hatch.
Worm Gods on the other hand, have all been categorically evil so far as dedicated followers of Sword Logic who conspired with Rhulk to create the Hive, though the proto-Worm species they evolved from were neutral and Ahsa has become an ally

[chrome fog]

There’s that one who made Awoken walk off a cliff for fun, that common behavior being the reason why the Great Hunt was set off

[trim grotto]

Presumably, yes.

[trim grotto]

Azirim

[worldly river]

OH yeah that asshole

[tropic dew]

so is the reason riven is bad bad because their kind got hunted by us?

[worldly river]

Well

I mean Ahamkara were always questionable, it was in their nature to make faustian bargains and deliberately misinterpret wishes in such ways that hurt people

[jagged badge]

No. Ahamkara are generally shitty, manipulative creatures. In fact, pretty sure Riven helped Mara with the Great Hunt

[worldly river]

The Great Hunt made sure Riven never trusted us again, but then she got worse when she got Taken

Then when we brought back her spirit, no longer Taken, she obviously didn't trust us because of the Great Hunt and because we personally killed her

[tropic dew]

lore wise is the most powerfull raid boss we killed oryx?

since he even took riven

[worldly river]

Mmmmmmm
Probably Rhulk given he beat the shit out of the Leviathan, which was a pretty challenging foe for the somewhat early Hive (though Oryx obviously stronger since then)
That said powerscaling in Destiny is sort of a pointless endeavor anyway

That said Ahamkara Wish Magic is nothing to sneeze at

[tropic dew]

I mean ofc, since our guardian is as powerfull as gods

[tropic dew]

can I look at wish magic as insanely ppwerfull but also a prison for the ahamkara?

can they do anything if no one wishes for them to do something

[worldly river]

They absolutely can do stuff without wishing, they can change their form freely for example

But the full potential of their magic seems to be through actual wishes

[tropic dew]

damm im hyped for the final share rly hope they do something unexpected and give us like an insanely big campaign. Hope the episodes thing is not a justification to drop feed us the finale

[worldly river]

But I don't think Ahamkara can really grant their own wishes, Taranis did it once and it killed him but he was also on the weaker side since he didn't do the faustian bargain thing

I don't remember what level of "not allowed" that is

Like, "taboo," "uses a lot of power," or "pretty much kills you"

[tropic dew]

idk anything about it but it would make alot of sense if it was a 1 thing type deal

[worldly river]

Suffice to say it's not really done but Ahamkara are capable of utilizing their magic in other ways without wishes

As I understand it Wish Magic lets them do things similar to what can be done with other paracausal powers like Light, Darkness, Hive magic, and Awoken magic, but the truly big reality-bending stuff is something that can only be done through wishes

Like the Dreaming City curse or forcibly aligning the path to the Pale Heart for Crow

[tropic dew]

just finished watching this season lore, ye it's a dead if u grant your own wish type of deal

but the ahamkare are looking to me as just being that have in their nature the bargaining and the wish bending as their nature

not rly as something evil

and riven story came out as extremely sympathetic, Did she rly do something so terrible in the past

[toxic timber]

Hey this might be a silly question but why did the guardians "do" the great hunt?

[worldly river]

Guardians tended to seek them out frequently and it would cause problems because the wishes would always go bad (including a lot of our limited stock of Guardians getting killed), so the Vanguard deemed them too dangerous to be kept around

Also apparently some, despite being very isolationist creatures who only really worked together to breed, had also convened on Venus for an unkown purpose that no observers seemed to be able to corroborate the same details of and led to one Guardian going mad and killing themself

[toxic timber]

I see thanks!

[chrome fog]

Not really, we just try as hard as them and we also take steps to strengthen our arsenal and cripple major targets’ power; Oryx for example had to retreat to his Throneworld in the Dreadnaught because we essentially killed his entire tithe structure and kicked his ass

As for most powerful boss it is moot, but Rhulk is the most physically strong while Nezarec was in the same level in terms of paracausal power; but Rhulk never took his fight seriously until the Last Stand and Nezarec’s body was just grown so his strength wasn’t at its peak

[chrome fog]

Final shape ends in the included raid just like Kingsfall, Episodes explore other threats to the Sol System after we beat the Witness

[ember storm]

to be clear it was a joint operation with the awoken since ahamkara were doing lots of things of their own volition, see the aforementioned azirim

it wasn’t really something to be enjoyed but it had to be done

[worldly river]

Well ther is implied there's a styory mission after the raid but we'll see

[ember storm]

like Shaxx put it, you can’t be angry at fire for burning down a house, but you can’t just let it go on

[worldly river]

The Vanguard did initiate it though, and Mara agreed to hunt down any in the Reef but her motive was in large part to hold the only remaining Ahamkara herself

In my eyes starting the Great Hunt is purely at the feet of the Vanguard, and Mara is at fault for essentially aiding and abetting in large part for her own gain, with situations like Azirim being justification

[next bobcat]

When a ghost revives a guardian, what determines their class?

[dim minnow]

it's really just personal preference

like certain qualities said guardian has that aligns them more to a specific class

[next bobcat]

Bungie should make an official quiz thing which tells you what class you would be

[dim minnow]

"look I know you want to be a warlock, but your IQ is clearly in the double digits so I think you would enjoy Titan way more" - John Bungie

[empty fern]

They kinda do that, each dlc (mainly wq) or season they send an email out displaying which class you played the most

[drifting garnet]

i think zavala is actually evil

yuuuurp

[empty fern]

ok

[next bobcat]

why do you think that

[empty fern]

You blundering fool, (it must be bait)

[dim minnow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1119631192816357526/1158678948822138940/soreall.gif?ex=651d1f5c&is=651bcddc&hm=02ada982c1a086b8e76cb6eb479d5e0170c0e159838205f10d16f778e0ec68b6&

[drifting garnet]

wheres his hair

think about it

read that again

[next bobcat]

people can be bald without being evil

[empty fern]

All the vanguard is bald

[drifting garnet]

EXACTLY

evil organisation trying to feed everyone to the traveler

theyre working with the witness

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-fives-clone-trooper-fives-star-wars-clone-wars-gif-25445851

[drifting garnet]

to throw everyone into the traveler

[ember storm]

don’t do that fives was actually right

[dim minnow]

and that's why he is being turned into an official lego minifigure

[trim grotto]

uhm akshually, Ikora isn't bald - she shaves

[empty fern]

She longs for baldness, it is guaranteed

[ember storm]

its the reason why Andal Brask died

full head of hair

exo head ornaments take the place of hair so Cayde died too

I don’t remember whether or not Saint has them

Osiris has a beard which is pushing it so Sagira died in his stead

[empty fern]

I think Saint had something, either that or the scar hole on the head

[dim minnow]

Saint's head is on the more smooth side

[ember storm]

hm if only there was something to let me view his head in motion

[empty fern]

Someone go post his corpse pic from the forgotten dlc

[ember storm]

like some kind of

cutscene that looks like ink on blots

[empty fern]

Oh yea

[ember storm]

if only something like that existed in gif format for easy viewing

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

Hmmmm

[ember storm]

bald loves bald

[empty fern]

I see like, I see an attachment, the 2 little long nubs on his head

They are defined well in the scene right before the kiss

[shadow crypt]

why does shaxx only have 1 horn

[ember storm]

ask Ikora

(beat his ass at crucible)

actually don’t remember if it was that or six fronts

or would that be twilight gap

[empty fern]

He still can’t do something about sitting (I can’t remember exact words but it’s similar)

[dull raft]

Pretty sure he just has difficulty, but whether that's due to his personality or Ikora's doing? Don't know

[willow dagger]

Uhhh does Shaxx have like a major crush on Queen Mara?

Omg never mind it was Riven

[trim grotto]

always helps to finish listening to the voiceline, haha

[inner mauve]

How is it so that we (the guardian) defeated savathun, and savathun defeated nezarec, but we struggle to defeat (or at least didnt defeat him as easily as we should have) a heavily nerfed nezarec that probably isnt even at 10% of the power he was at when savathun defeated him? Its a bit of a plot hole, no?

[trim grotto]

No, I wouldn't say so.

[jagged badge]

For one, the Savathûn we killed did not have the power that pre-Risen Savathûn had with her Worm

[trim grotto]

Savathûn was essentially a New Light. She preformed many experiments in her short time after rebirth, but she was not an experienced Lightbearer. She was still fresh from the grave, without her memories until the end of the campaign.
She did not have her Worm, her power or magic manifested from Sword Logic, as her Worm was dead and her Logic abandoned.

[inner mauve]

Ah, ok.

[trim grotto]

We, on the other hand, had used our Light to defeat gods. Furthermore, in our battle, we damaged her by turning the law of her Throne against her - using cunning, hidden knowledge, and deception.

Similarly, we had used the logic of Crota's Throne against him - he placed the Sword above all else, and so it was quite literally a Sword which was his weakness.

[inner mauve]

the same way how we had to step into taken blights to defeat the taken king in his throne world?

[trim grotto]

Not necessarily. Arguably, sure, but not necessarily. What weakened Oryx was twofold.
Firstly, we had systematically dismantled his Tribute network, with the King's Court, Oryx, and more, which weakened him significantly.
Secondly, we detonated his stolen, corrupted Light which he had stockpiled.

[inner mauve]

also if you dont mind, its been more than a year since i did the campaign; how did we use cunning and deception to defeat savathun again?

[trim grotto]

By showing her the truth. The real truth about Fundament, Hive, and the grand deception. We stole that information from the calcified Worm familiar, right under Savathûn's nose.

[inner mauve]

Ok thanks

[ember storm]

you sure about "Dead"?

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-the-witch-queen-witch-queen-worm-savathuns-worm-gif-24979830

[trim grotto]

it's dead to me

[ember storm]

rude

[jagged badge]

[ember storm]

yknow what they should have worm and variks interact

would be funny i think

[jagged badge]

How the fuck was Mara planning to ingest that thing

It’s like half the size of her I swear

[trim grotto]

Well, she... wasn't

[jagged badge]

I thought she was but then came up with the Parasite gun instead

[trim grotto]

'twas all a ruse

[jagged badge]

Ah

Okay but that still raises the question of how that ruse was supposed to be convincing

Did no one consider the logistics when she said it?

[trim grotto]

Well, Thrall manage it, somehow. And half of their bodies have holes in them.

[ember storm]

she just told the worm that he'd get a host

also we know mara so we really weren't expecting her to literally eat the worm

[trim grotto]

Hah, well, many were. And she did imply it.

[ember storm]

that's the best part about lying

it can be completely correct

[shadow warren]

Do we know who the stranger was talking to in the d1 cutscene on Venus

[slim elk]

Best guess with what we know now is either the Pouka or Tokki

[shadow warren]

Who’s tokki

[slim elk]

Ghost

[shadow warren]

Who’s?

[slim elk]

No ones

[shadow warren]

Ah

[slim elk]

Elsie found her on an abandoned space station near pluto where the Pouka was

[shadow warren]

I see

[slim elk]

Let me get the lore

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/speed-metal-shell

Now why there's Cloudstrider gear and an abandoned Pouka out near Pluto is never explained.
Another failure of Lightfalls writing

[shadow warren]

Is the transmission explained?

Could the pouka have sent it

[slim elk]

Not what I'm talking about

I'm talking why the Poukas there in the first place

And yeah. Probably was from the Pouka

Got some some of emotional support powers..
Abandoned on the station by a Cloudstrider? Probably was in distress

[shadow warren]

Ik. Separate question

[slim elk]

Anyway.
Pouka never gets a name from Elsie aa far as I know

[reef salmon]

Another Dovah W

[empty fern]

What are the blind legion? (Cabal scannable in the first taken king mission)

What was the ship stealers name? The baroness of devils (d1 variks dialogue)

[severe meadow]

eramis

or veekris

[velvet flax]

Officially Veekris but someone random person heard 'Eramis', made a Destinypedia article of it and then some bungie dev, looking for an Eliksni antagonist for Zero Hour picked them from Destinypedia.

[severe meadow]

holy crud this is real

lmao

[tawdry mauve]

actually they didnt hear "Veekris" as "Eramis" but rather "Baroness" was misheard as "Eramis"

its quite clear when you watch back the original dialouge from variks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAoVt__Ag_E

[fresh zephyr]

what is a spire for the hive, is it like a church or something.

[ember storm]

it’s just a spire

the fact it’s a spire doesn’t mean anything

Savathun just has one

whatever the hive choose to do in whatever building they’re holed up in depends on their leader

so Savathun did a bunch of weird experiments in hers

[empty fern]

Basically the wq mirror mission but as a season

[tawdry mauve]

bungie also likes using the word "spire"

[ember storm]

SotS and Savathun’s Spire are for the alliteration

[chrome fog]

It's funny Calus brought in two activities with Spire in their name during Opulence, and then it came back again for Seraph

[ember storm]

Spire of the Watcher I dunno

tower just didn’t sound cool enough ig

[chrome fog]

Imagery or smth, I think there's a handful of fancy quotes which mention a watcher from a spire

[ember storm]

how’s a bow supposed to see it doesn’t have eyes, stupid bungie

[trim grotto]

As in Savathûn's Spire? It's just quite literally a Spire. A... Tower atop a building.

[chrome fog]

uM aCtuAlLy It'S sOtErIa WhO iS t- Golden Gun shot rings out

[dim minnow]

Calus had nothing to do with SotW though

and Spire of Stars was from Warmind, not Opulence

[chrome fog]

I should've typed that better, I meant a Spire-named thing came back in Seraph

But otherwise he had two spire things prior, which is just funny that he gets two

[next bobcat]

what's with bungie and spires?

idea - spire of taniks dungeon lmao

[golden wolf]

question, what exactly is this meant to mean, I recognise the symbol and who it belongs to, but why is it here of all places?

[trim grotto]

The 227!

[golden wolf]

227?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex#ishtar-collective
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-2#ishtar-collective
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-3#ishtar-collective
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-4#ishtar-collective
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-aspect

Their tale in order

A Collective research team consisting of Dr. Shim, Maya Sundaresh, Chioma Esi, and Duane-McNiadh, captured a Vex to study. Esi discovered that the Vex was running a simulation of their research team that was completely accurate. After much debate, they conclude that the only way to save themselves from the simulation is to bring in something the Vex cannot simulate—a Warmind. They were able to rescue 227 undamaged copies of themselves from inside the Vex, and all copies voted to become explorers in the Vex information network.
This is the summary of the Grimoire cards I have linked

What happened to the remaining 227 after the events of Aspect was a mystery - with the exception of the Europa Maya - but this symbol, here in the Black Garden, gives us an inkling of insight.

The remaining 227 escaped the Network, somehow, and have left this marker of their presence. Perhaps they hijacked a Vex frame, representing the mysterious being in the teaser for the first Episode.

[golden wolf]

one weird way to show it

[trim grotto]

Not so weird if you know the tale

Aspect is a great, if confusing, story for this

[willow flax]

why are the vex and the hive at the dreaming city if it was supposed to be like

hidden

[jagged badge]

Because it was found

Not hard to find and expose the Dreaming City when you have a Taken Ahamkara sitting within

[ember storm]

the entire reason the dreaming city is open to us is because it was exposed and opened to everyone

[dim minnow]

back in the first Destiny game, we killed a poweful Hive named Crota who was the son of Oryx

as a result, Oryx got pissed so he went to Sol and upon his arrival within Saturn's rings, he was met with Mara Sov backed by the Awoken armada

[shadow crypt]

Could the traveler be the enemy?

Ik this sounds dumb

[dim minnow]

at the end of the Battle, Oryx used his superweapon to annihilate all ships surrounding him

[dim minnow]

no

[shadow crypt]

hasn’t the traveler visited lots of species and destroyed them

[jagged badge]

No

[shadow crypt]

or left in times of trouble

[jagged badge]

The Witness is the one who has committed eons and eons of genocide

The Traveler’s only goal is to uplift worlds, to foster growth and compassion

[dim minnow]

when this happened, Mara's techeuns opened a path presumably through the Ley Lines to try and escape to the Dreaming City which led Oryx there as a result

[shadow crypt]

Going back to that

Do we know the origins of the traveler?

[jagged badge]

When it left the Eliksni, it left because it knew its presence put them at risk. It did it because it hoped that leaving them would spare them the fate brought by the Witness and the Hive

[dim minnow]

so then Oryx took over the Dreaming City until his death which allowed Riven to take control over the Taken there

[shadow crypt]

Ah ok

[dim minnow]

the Traveler already wanted to leave, but the kinship and love the Eliksni gave to it made it prolong its stay

it leaving during the Whirlwind was probably meant to try and give them a chance to survive

[shadow crypt]

?

[dim minnow]

eh

[jagged badge]

I mean, I don’t think it was specifically that the Eliksni loved the Traveler, but more their general kindness and compassion for the world as a whole. The Traveler doesn’t seem the type to want to be idolised that way

[dim minnow]

on one hand we have Unveiling which is highly allegorical

[jagged badge]

You must force yourself to be cruel. Your presence is portent.```

[dim minnow]

kinship is not the same as worship

[jagged badge]

Still, it personally doesn’t read to me that the Traveler stayed because of how the Eliksni loved it, but because of how the Eliksni were in general and how the Traveler loved them for it

Which I find profoundly beautiful tbh

In a world so full of death and sorrow as Destiny, the idea that this entity such as the Traveler first and foremost values things such as being gentle, fashioning the world into art and beauty and remembering it in song

I just love it, it’s super wholesome to me

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily; we have Unveiling, but we cannot trust its account of the Traveler’s origins, and the Witness’ backstory shows the Traveler rising out of their planet’s surface but we don’t know if that’s just for thematic effect or what actually happened as the cutscene only elaborates on the Witness species rather than the Traveler/Gardener

[willow flax]

i see

[shadow crypt]

Why can’t we trust unveiling?

[jagged badge]

Because its source was from an artifact given to us by the Witness in the Lunar Pyramid

[trim grotto]

Because it was written by the Witness, and was disproven when the Witness was shown to have been a mortal species once.

It isn't the Winnower that narrates the book

At least, not in the most literal sense

[jagged badge]

Yeah. Unveiling appears as an almost Biblical style creation myth. An allegory told to us by the Winnower who is presented in dichotomy to the Gardener (aka the Traveler)

[trim grotto]

You're a dichotomy

[shadow crypt]

Ah alright

[jagged badge]

However now we know that the Witness was once a mortal species, and that the Winnower as a concept is either the Veil or an unfilled role the Witness wishes to have filled

[jagged badge]

[slim elk]

Might get some answers as we pry into the Pale Heart of the traveler

But that remains to be seen

[jagged badge]

I think it’d be incredibly surprising if Final Shape gave us nothing on the Traveler haha

[slim elk]

Lightfall relegated the Witness origins to seasonal content thats scheduled to be deleted so...

[jagged badge]

That is completely not the same thing

Besides, the cutscene of the Witness’ origins is staying in the game so

[dim minnow]

the Hive are there because of Oryx's invasion of the city alongside his Taken (and also Savathun setting stuff up with Riven)

as for the Vex, the answer is less clear

it can be argued that it was the Witness' doing, however, we know that the Witness can't really direct forces here since it is in the Pale Heart building the monolith

it seems to be part of Bungie's set up with the first TF episode, Echoes

[chrome fog]

To elaborate further, Unveiling does have many truths within it, but the validity of anything said within it has to be cross-referenced with other entries. The origin for the Gardener and Winnower is not one of these.

[ember storm]

watch your language

[fiery copper]

Guys is this real omg

[dim minnow]

no proof

for all we know the Sol Inherent were likely an attempt to replace the BGH by the Sol Divisive

[trim grotto]

Utterly unfounded.

Not strictly implausible, but no.

[fiery copper]

The way he says "fyi" as if it's a well established fact

And not just something he made up on the spot

[trim grotto]

That's, what, YouTube comments? They're like that a lot, I've found.

[fiery copper]

Idk not my screenshot

Can't think of a site that has both a ♡ and a thumbs down tbh

[stone turtle]

looks like Instagram

[shadow crypt]

that’s tiktok

[trim grotto]

Oh, even worse. Tiktok lore.

The most accurate tiktok lore I saw was half true at best.

[shadow crypt]

Fr

[empty fern]

Wait did anyone ever answer what the blind legion were?

[dim minnow]

according to a grimoire card, the Blind Legion were a legion of Cabal on Mars who were tasked with sweeping ruins and catacombs of Vex presence and to defend artifacts retrieved from them

basically the primary anti-Vex force the Cabal utilized on their Mars campaign

[empty fern]

Are they the ones that had the vex tablet in this area?

[dim minnow]

from what I see, that skull-like symbol you see in the background seems to be their insignia

[empty fern]

What’s the dust giants symbol again?

[dim minnow]

and given the context that we had to go to a Vex relic held in a Cabal base, I belive so

[empty fern]

I see

Cool

[empty fern]

Oh that looks weird

[dim minnow]

it looks like the Dust Giants have the same one as the Sand Eaters

[empty fern]

(Looks like a well of radiance )

[dim minnow]

it's just that the Dust Giants are veteran Sand Eaters

[empty fern]

Naming wise it sounds about right

[dim minnow]

then you got Siege Dancers and Skyburners

[empty fern]

What planet was siege dancers again?

[dim minnow]

their role would be to take control and fortify unsecured locations

led by Valus Ta'aurc

[empty fern]

Ohh

[dim minnow]

from what I can gather, he commands the Siege Dancers from an imperial land tank outside of Rubicon

[empty fern]

Shut

[dim minnow]

he's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on freehold

[empty fern]

Speaking of cabal tanks

Why does the proving ground land tank just, drive off somewhere

[dim minnow]

dramatic effect

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[dim minnow]

realistically, Bungie didn't have to put in the extra effort to make it move

only part of the strike that would be significantly changed would be the core deposit section

[empty fern]

Oh yea

[pure tree]

Do you think the Vanguard and the City, at least militarily, has recovered from the Red War to Age of Triumph levels, and if so, at what point did it recover to that level?

The Vanguard and City itself, not the coalition as a whole

[sick yew]

I mean there are still big craters in the last city from back when the red war started

[ember storm]

you can’t exactly just fix entire city blocks that were taken out by craters

there was a surmountable loss of guardian lives but were apparently always getting new lights popping up, so

[sick yew]

I mean its been many many years since the Red war

They equally havent fixed the old tower yet

[ember storm]

it’s been six

why would they “fix” the old tower anyway

[sick yew]

Cause it was the central control point of the city's military

[ember storm]

all we know is they’ve been putting extra infrastructure onto a massive collapsing building so it doesn’t fall over and kill everyone nearby

[ember storm]

and we have a new one

why go back to the old one

[sick yew]

Thats not nearly as advanced

[ember storm]

fuck you mean advanced

[sick yew]

The "new one" is literally just a few rooms along the wall

Connected to a hangar

The old one had their own little wartable and stuff

[ember storm]

where Zavala’s private office and the speaker’s personal quarters are

we have the helm now which is just better strategically

we don’t need a pompous hall and big table for war discussion now

we have an entire mobile base dedicated to that

[sick yew]

The Helm is a spaceship

Its not connected to the last city directly anymore

If we're talking central defense of the last city the old tower was superior in every way

[ember storm]

which is the point

we have the helm because it was very easy for our enemies to take out our army and civilians at the same time

[sick yew]

And the reason the old tower hasnt been rebuild yet is simply because Bungie made the new one to fresh things up and didnt bother to bring back the d1 environment

[sick yew]

You seem to overestimate how big the Helm actually is
Its really not that large

[ember storm]

again which is the point

[sick yew]

its a mobile outpost at best

[ember storm]

it’s not superior at all to have a massive building housing literally everything we do

the red legion just bombed the old tower first and left us completely defenseless

[sick yew]

And now they simply shoot in a slight angle at the wall and are done through that

lol

[ember storm]

you know if anyone actually wanted to be in a tower again we’d just go to another one

there’s others in the city

bannerfall is just an old one

but instead we set up in an entirely new hq

I wonder why

(Because it’s better)

[sick yew]

Bla bla vex simulation bla bla

[sick yew]

Cause it made for a good final scene in the Red War and bungie said we stay there

[empty fern]

I do miss the old banner fall, twas not full of cabal missiles

[ember storm]

what

[sick yew]

[ember storm]

the fuck are you talking about

why do people care so much about an old building

we’ve had the new tower for like seven more years

[sick yew]

Cause it looks cool

The new tower by definition is not a tower

[empty fern]

Nuh uh

[sick yew]

Its literally just a bunch of rooms ontop of and partly inside the wall

[ember storm]

towers don’t have to be freestanding

[sick yew]

the
wall

[ember storm]

why are you questioning the hq being a wall when the current vanguard commander is a Titan

[sick yew]

thewall

[empty fern]

The towers in question

You think the d1 tower is bigger than the d2 tower?

[sick yew]

In terms of walkable space ingame?

[ember storm]

anyway if zero hour is any indication the vanguard never really cared about going back

[empty fern]

Yea

[sick yew]

Well then lets kill them

And take back our tower

[ember storm]

look if you want to be like those people who buy decrepit schools and move in be my guest

[sick yew]

I am suing the vanguard for not properly taking care of the reconstruction

[ember storm]

have fun with your roommate Trevor

[sick yew]

Trevor is a bro

[ember storm]

how do you properly take care of what doesn’t exist

[empty fern]

Why do you think I bought final shape?

Decrepit tower is back baby

[ember storm]

there was never any reconstruction people just gaslit themselves

[sick yew]

Literally look at the cranes?

Bro

[ember storm]

you know in real life they set up cranes and giant wires to stop old castles and towers from collapsing

[empty fern]

Maybe wals is true

[sick yew]

[ember storm]

unless you show me actual progress in the building itself being rebuilt and not just stilts, don’t @ me

I want clear and distinctive before/after shots

[sick yew]

If they wanted to get rid of it
They would have simply blown it up

[empty fern]

Both routes take energy

And resources

[ember storm]

a very normal thing for people to do clearly

[ember storm]

also are you going to finally change your guardian’s face when the option comes up

[empty fern]

Maybe, I might copy this boolean guardian I saw a while back,

Or make it male (I want to make bulky titan fashion)

Or make my d2 guardians like my d1 faces

[ember storm]

anyway old tower is just a landmark now

[empty fern]

Wait

[ember storm]

not useful but we’re not going to carpet bomb it

[empty fern]

Where did the ghally quest in d1 take place? The actual forge spot where you fought fallen, (not the banner fall place)

[ember storm]

that was just some shit place in the plaguelands

[empty fern]

Damn

[ember storm]

where old golden age parts were or something

it was really inconsequential

especially since I dismantled the gjally right after getting it so I could use my preorder iron gjally instead

[empty fern]

Speaking of tower, what was this about again? It’s been years

[ember storm]

Xurs there

that’s a nine symbol

[empty fern]

Oh cool

[ember storm]

IX is nine

I’m surprised you’ve never just looked that up

[empty fern]

I just recently got d1 back (I was 10 back then)

[ember storm]

just to clear things up the gjally quest was for the rise of iron version only

[empty fern]

Also kept seeing purple so thought Saint, but then numerals

[empty fern]

Yea

[ember storm]

because D1 had a very cool mechanic called sunset exotics

[blazing harness]

i have a lore question

what tf happened to xivu arath

did she die?

can she be killed?

dont @ me in new

[jagged badge]

Eris Morn separated her from her Throne World

[blazing harness]

and did she die?

[jagged badge]

She did not die, however what it means is that if we do kill her now, she cannot resurrect through her Throne

When beings with Throne Worlds “die”, they return to their Throne Worlds to recover and eventually return

[blazing harness]

what about savathun

[jagged badge]

Unless they are killed within their Throne, like how we kill Crota and Oryx

[jagged badge]

In Witch Queen she died outside of her Throne but she was separated from it because she didn’t have her worm. When Immaru resurrected her, Savathûn was able to reclaim her Throne World with the Light somehow. And despite us killing her in her Throne World, ofc she still had Immaru to resurrect her

[blazing harness]

makes sence

didnt we crunch imaru?

nvm im off track

so why arent we trying to kill xivu arath??

get rid of her for good

[jagged badge]

Well for one, we don’t know where she is. She isn’t exactly announcing herself again so soon after becoming so vulnerable

But also, we’d have a hard time killing Xivu

She’s still the Hive God of War, she’s still immensely powerful and she still gains power from conflict so to fight her is to fuel her power more

Unlike when we fought Crota and Oryx, Xivu is not weakened

She has her tribute system, she has her power and she keeps gaining more from war

And besides all that as well, we’re focusing on the Witness first and dealing with Xivu when we need to

The Witness is a more pressing matter because its plan puts us on a timetable to stop it before it does whatever bad shit it’s gonna do to the whole universe

[blazing harness]

okie dokie

tysm thats all i needed

imma friend u in case i have more lore questions

[jagged badge]

Feel free to ask whatever here, and either I or some of the other lore nerds will be happy to answer/explain/discuss!

[empty fern]

(Eris not being mad for once?)

[jagged badge]

[tawdry mauve]

now youve done it

[keen pendant]

Do you know of any lore where it states a ghost has killed something (besides that time when drifters ghost ran its shell through a lightbearers head)

[slim elk]

Depends what you mean.
Our own ghost hijacked a tank in Forsaken and blew up scorn with it

[keen pendant]

Ghosts using their bodies to kill things I find the prospect of it amusing

[foggy bane]

what's the deal with Warlord's Ruin? got curious if that meatball is actually an Ahamkara or smth like that, i thought they were only those big bone things

[foggy bane]

(basically whats the warlord's ruin lore?)

[blazing wasp]

Fynch killed his own ghost, presumably with his own, now broken "horn"

And sloanes ghost had razors on them to cut through hive and several times killed small groups of hive

[jagged badge]

The Ahamkara is long dead. The chimera we fight is an avatar for it

[keen pendant]

Why is our ghost so lame 😭

I want to see my titan and ghost running around chucking my ghost into the head of a fallen dreg

[foggy bane]

i mean he did create a link for the witness (unwillingly) to enter the traveler so i think he's pretty cool actually

[foggy bane]

makes sense, but what about all those bones we find at the final boss room? is it part of the Ahamkara's body?

[jagged badge]

Thems the Ahamkara bones yes

[foggy bane]

okok

[keen pendant]

Yeah but he did that without knowing I thought?

[ember storm]

again ours literally took control of a tank and gunned down scorn

he has a kill count

something very, very little ghosts have

[blazing wasp]

Mind you that we have very little actual canonical and outright confirmed activity

We've been alive for less than two decades

That's pretty young for a guardian

[keen pendant]

Yeah but I want to throw the pointy ball at things and I love the idea of

[keen pendant]

Baby guardian

Hold on are there child guardians? Can children be risen?

[blazing wasp]

Last time someone got reckless like that with their ghosts...

That was uh

Cayde.

[keen pendant]

[blazing wasp]

Before his ghost got shot

[keen pendant]

Why not design guns for our ghosts?

Ghost with a Glock

[keen pendant]

Is there any lore about this though?

I’m really curious about child guardians do they exist?

[dim minnow]

there was an infant who died and was rezzed just after

[blazing wasp]

They'll become a target

[keen pendant]

🤔

[blazing wasp]

The criteria for a guardian usually gets in the way for child guardians

[keen pendant]

They’ve always been a target

[dim minnow]

it is believed that the infant was Shin Malphur

[blazing wasp]

No

[keen pendant]

Elaborate

[blazing wasp]

Not all of our enemies target our ghosts

[keen pendant]

Why would you not target a ghost?

[blazing wasp]

Among reasons may be that we're the ones in the process of dropping enough firepower to rival a thermonuclear bomb

Not the nimble and small drone that can teleport and poses little direct threat

Our ghosts are very effective if they can just stay hidden, and rez us when safe, repeat the process

[keen pendant]

But we get all of our abilities from the ghost right? Once the ghost is destroyed we lose the light and can’t be revived

[blazing wasp]

Correct

But our enemies aren't always that aware of this, and they're not always able to target that ghost

[keen pendant]

What if they just puppy guard a dead guardian? Then they can’t revive

[blazing wasp]

Correct

But a ghost can wait for years

[keen pendant]

Oh yeah I suppose they can 🤔

[blazing wasp]

We did this to savathun

And her ghost waited until we brought her carcass to him

[keen pendant]

We did?

[blazing wasp]

Yes

When we killed her in witch queen

[keen pendant]

I didn’t have witch queen until recently I haven’t gotten around to playing it 😋

[blazing wasp]

Ah

Sorry for the spoilers then

[keen pendant]

It’s all good I don’t really care about spoilers (:

[trim grotto]

It was also a tactic used by the Iron Lords, and more recently, Praxics. Though the Praxics also usually take the Ghost into custody too.

[keen pendant]

What was?

[trim grotto]

Sequester the body so that the Ghost cannot revive it

[keen pendant]

Ah

[inner mauve]

is mara a lesbian

or bi

or just likes girls

[trim grotto]

Pretty sure she's lesbian. @jagged badge?

You remember those images, right?

[inner mauve]

i was wondering because in the seasonal messages riven talks about how mara was intimate with someone, and mara refers to said person as "her"

[jagged badge]

Mara’s bi

[jagged badge]

That’d be Sjur Eido

[trim grotto]

There you go

Indeed

[inner mauve]

thought so

[trim grotto]

Sjur was her partner years ago

But Sjur... "died"

It's a bit complex

[inner mauve]

didnt she like

[jagged badge]

Yeah. Eramis had the lesbian flag, Mara had the bi one, Saint gay, Drifter pan and Nimbus the enby flag

[inner mauve]

make her the awoken queen or something

[inner mauve]

whats enby

[jagged badge]

Non-binary

[trim grotto]

Not exactly
The Awoken of the Reef voted for that

But Sjur was one of her early allies

Literally love at first sight

Anywho you've got this Eris, I've got to get back to work

[jagged badge]

Even though she was hunting Mara initially right?

[trim grotto]

Yes

[ember storm]

this is the part where we gossip about mael behind his back

[chrome fog]

Because most Guardians don’t have their ghosts out in the open to get shot

[keen pendant]

I read that as meal and got excited before I read it a second time

[trim grotto]

[ember storm]

just convince him to play poker against an ahamkara, then he'll be a meal

[chrome fog]

Also hello lore chat

[keen pendant]

He’s out in most cutscenes (our ghost) what’re the chances there’s not a invisible Vandal or something else lurking

[chrome fog]

That’s the point of the combat sections, you clear the area of hostiles

[keen pendant]

Yeah but what if you missed one?

[ember storm]

cloaked vandals aren't invisible

[keen pendant]

🤔

[ember storm]

they're clearly indicated and seen on your tracker

also your ghost is smarter than you and knows when to come out

[keen pendant]

Yeah I guess that’s true it’s more of visual distortion

[chrome fog]

Then you don’t get to proceed through the combat section, what is so hard to get about this

[keen pendant]

Nothing it just feels like a missed opportunity to make the cutscene feel less safe

Eh I suppose this conversation doesn’t belong in lore

[ember storm]

what cutscene

[keen pendant]

Just in general our ghost is out a lot after a fight and I’m thinking what if there was just a random enemy somehow still left it feels like our ghost should wait a while before than but I didn’t think about the tracker

[ember storm]

it's part of the guardian's job to clear out hostiles and make the area safe for their ghost

it's like the whole dynamic

ghost can do technical stuff but offense is incredibly limited

[keen pendant]

Yeah but what if you slipped up 🤔 guardians aren’t perfect

[ember storm]

you're a magical powerhouse but you rely on your ghost for it all

[chrome fog]

If they needed a cutscene to feel less safe they could just. Have the characters note that hostiles are back in the area. There’s also the defending the scan segments

[ember storm]

then rip bozo

[keen pendant]

It’s just a hypothetical scenario I’m thinking of

[ember storm]

the problem with your logic is that our character is THE Guardian™️

we're not a randy '

[keen pendant]

Yeah I suppose so 🤔

[ember storm]

also wait is randy named randy because he's like the poster child of randoms

[keen pendant]

Who?

[chrome fog]

Your hypothetical exists in the form of guarding your ghost while it’s hacking or scanning

[ember storm]

ever heard of like 99% of destiny missions?

"the door/relic/vehicle/system is locked guardian sit in a room shooting things while i stare at it very hard"

[chrome fog]

Real, probably true

[ember storm]

i need to consult the oracles for this

@green cobalt you

[green cobalt]

what

[ember storm]

thoughts?

i have made the discovery of the century

[chrome fog]

Randy theory

[ember storm]

it is the best theory

it's up there

[green cobalt]

[jagged badge]

There’s multiple Randy’s as well iirc

[ember storm]

it's a cursed legacy

like ganon

[chrome fog]

Isn’t there Randy the- no, it’s Randal the Vandal

[ember storm]

if you're named ganondorf you inherit the soul of darkness but instead of evil you're just destined to be a shit team member

[chrome fog]

It’s also because only one male gerudo is born every 100 years

Wait

[ember storm]

so just name him stanley or something

hyrule is just stupid

we could've gotten the matt mercer ganon as an ally in a cooler story but they just dehydrate him and send zelda back in time

[chrome fog]

I did like some theories/aus after TotK’s reveal where you had a young prince Ganon help you beat evil shriveled up husk Ganondorf

[keen pendant]

What is going on here?

[ember storm]

nothing this was like 20 hours ago

[empty fern]

Lore moment

[drifting garnet]

the witness might be evil

ngl

[fresh zephyr]

why dont the ahamkara's like guardians

[still quarry]

Because we basically hunted them to extinction, but in general I don't believe they specifically hate us at least I never read that somewhere

[keen pendant]

Nah just run up and give all whatever thousands of beings inside of a single shell a big ole hug

[keen pendant]

We hunted them down but I thought they didn’t hate us if they did they’d try to stop it wouldn’t they?

[jagged badge]

I mean, the Ahamkara definitely fought back, by large

[keen pendant]

Did they? I thought half of em just sat back and watched? I might have missed something 🤔

[ember storm]

wdym watched

they were hunted to extinction

they all fought and died except for 2

[keen pendant]

Where’d that message go?

I swear I got pinged and it’s just not here

[keen pendant]

Yeah but I thought they didn’t make any attempt to stop the guardians they just waited for us to hunt them down

[jagged badge]

Where’d you get that from?

[keen pendant]

Honestly I have no clue

[ember storm]

Ahamkara were actively killing whoever they wanted and doing whatever they wanted

the ability to grant wishes was just an additional reason the vanguard decided they needed to go

[keen pendant]

Oh

[ember storm]

they weren’t like a bunch of dodos passively sitting around on some random island before we came along

[keen pendant]

Damn them some big dodos yeah I knew they were killing peoples for funsies but by the time the vanguard started hunting them down I thought for some reason they were just chillin by themselves in random location

[ember storm]

not at all

[chrome fog]

Saladin wished one was a Dragon as it fought back and prior to the Great Hunt they've taken the lives of Guardians on a whim, if course they'd fight back

[keen pendant]

Like 4 legged dragon?

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/transfiguration

[errant osprey]

I looked up that Byf guy for the lore, but he didn’t have a video at least when I was looking that had the entire timeline up to lightfall, anyone know a video for that?

[trim grotto]

As a complete video? Not that I'm aware of. But keep in mind that even an "entire timeline" video would skip over a lot of things. Even Byf's four hour long video to Shadowkeep skipped over stuff.

[worldly river]

The videos I found summarizing the year of BL and WQ were all not adequate enough for my taste tbh

[azure badge]

anyone have a video of what happened after the chimera eater fight

i accidentally skipped the cutscene with savathuns dead body

[jagged badge]

The what fight

[azure badge]

the last fight of last season

large knight

his name was something eater

[jagged badge]

Ah

Leviathan-Eater

[azure badge]

yeah

thanks

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/DPrwuAJOx6s?si=9l7hNe6DinkTXyoW

Last cutscene in this video

[azure badge]

tysm

[jagged badge]

6:35

[azure badge]

thats pretty cool

kinda sad i skipped that

[willow flax]

whats that structure on mars underneath savathuns ship in the first wq mission

[jagged badge]

It’s a Cradle. Something left by the Traveler on worlds it terraformed

[trim grotto]

Just like the one left on Io

(Let's ignore the fact that apparently there are either two Mars Cradles or the Mars Cradle moved to a different hemisphere)

[jagged badge]

It went for walkies

[empty fern]

Hah, you thought lore chat was being active, get fooled bozo

[blazing wasp]

i will transmogrify your knees into cabbage

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

Final Shape is going to sneak up on me and I'll not have completed this season's story

[jagged badge]

Just knock it out in an afternoon

[fallow sky]

If i understand right, the final shape is literally nothing, like the witness is literally aiming to erase reality, kinda like before the big bang

[chrome fog]

That's one interpretation yes

[tawdry mauve]

think of it more as a snapshot of the universe in a perfect state

but no free will

[chrome fog]

Final Shape can also be making it so that all life is dedicated to universal Social Darwinism, which is what the Sword Logic is; basically all life trying to eliminate each other so that they can prove they deserve to exist more than the other

[tawdry mauve]

in the most simplified way possible

its why Mara objected against it

having free will and being able to make mistakes is cool as fuck 😎

[chrome fog]

Perfection can also be nothingness, lifelessness, as sentient life has potential to make mistakes, to develop beyond the dictated path set by its creators

It's all nebulous

[tawdry mauve]

still crazy to me that the overarching antagonist of this games story is just a race that collectively had an existential panic attack and made it everyone elses problem

[trim grotto]

Depends on who is enacting it. The Final Shape is a malleable concept, an end-state of the universe. It can have different forms.

[chrome fog]

Ironically, the Chronicon is a totally valid interpretation of the Final Shape from Calus' perspective, but generally the Final Shape is one's perfect image of the universe as it should be

[trim grotto]

Such as the Vex Convergence, wherein all is simulated, and all is Vex.

[fallow sky]

But what is perfection in the witness' eyes? the sword logic?

[tawdry mauve]

i dont think we know for certain

[trim grotto]

It isn't good, that's for certain.

[chrome fog]

Both the interpretation I presented and Kuzmo presented are perfectly valid takes on the Witness' intents in enacting the Final Shape ¯_(ツ)_/¯

at least from what we have available currently

Which is severely limited

[tawdry mauve]

in its simplest form its just the end game for the universe as a whole

the final fate of everything

what it ends up being depends massively on who is enacting it

[fallow sky]

But what if it is good?

Oh sry

[true gorge]

Personally I think cayde should’ve married the guy that killed him

[fallow sky]

Didnt meant to send that

[chrome fog]

(It's intentionally vague to maintain the mythological facade that the Witness has but it also makes it hard to explain the Witness)

[trim grotto]

[chrome fog]

That's actually the perfect image that's hilarious

[trim grotto]

Well they're both a little bit dead

And also Uldren hated Guardians
Particularly Cayde

[chrome fog]

But no, the Witness could not define a meaning of life for itself, being wholly dependent on the Traveler to set one for themselves when they were a civilization

[tawdry mauve]

my final shape would be.... Everyone gets to live for however long they like, the universe never ends and ten thousand dollars cash.

[fallow sky]

10k for just yourself or for everyone?

[tawdry mauve]

we'll see

[chrome fog]

Uldren has better chemistry with Jolyon

[tawdry mauve]

speaking of uldren, we should kill petra

[chrome fog]

Jail Petra perpetually

[tawdry mauve]

no no, kill her and then hope a ghost rezes her

[chrome fog]

She gets no glimmer, but has to do bounties forever

[tawdry mauve]

the irony

of petra becoming a guardian

[trim grotto]

[chrome fog]

No, that's too good for her

[tawdry mauve]

and then immediately after give her all her memories back

so she is basically the same exact person she was

but this time a guardian

that would be funny

[chrome fog]

So a Petra that's functionally immortal and also a Guardian

[tawdry mauve]

ye

[chrome fog]

Which would make her immensely more annoying

[tawdry mauve]

guardian petra is just ironic

[fallow sky]

Why do we hate petra?

[chrome fog]

Because "Oh see, I can do what you guys do but fit better into my own set rules of what is right and just"

[tawdry mauve]

@dim minnow

he asked 🫵

[trim grotto]

She once got exiled for bombing a Guardian fireteam accidentally
Bombing to final death

Classic Petra

I don't hate her though

[tawdry mauve]

heres the entire list actually

[candid inlet]

dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion

1. She was forced to work in the Last City as an Emissary as punishment for calling an airstrike that killed 3 fireteams of Guardians and their Ghosts who were fighting deeply entrenched Fallen Wolves.
2. While in exile, she showed great disdain towards the people of the city thinking that the "don't know their place".
3. Between Red War and Forsaken, when Cayde apprehended Fikrul and Uldren, she decided to lock Uldren up in the Prison of Elders alongside Fikrul and the other Scorn Barons and made sure only her, Cayde, and Variks were the only ones to know that the Prince was still alive.
4. After this, she left the task of curing Uldren and Fikrul's respective conditions solely on Variks' shoulders which could be seen as one of the leading factors behind his decision to abandon the Prison starting the vents of Forsaken. Could of asked techeuns or even the Last City to help, but no, must not make her people any less happy I guess.
5. She heavily despises Zavala even going to the point to where she fantasizes about being superior to him and mopping up his dissolved remains off of the floor. Not even joking here.
6. I really doubt she had no idea what Uldren was planning until she failed to stop him at the EDZ. She may not have known about Riven being behind it, but she had to know that Uldren took over the Tangled Shore so he could get to the Dreaming City. Maybe the Vanguard would have gotten involved if they knew Uldren could unleash a Taken Ahamkara, and maybe the Dreaming City fisaco wouldn't have been so bad. Instead Petra kept it a secret until after Uldren was able to reach his goal.
7. She wasn't even the one who summoned Guardians to aid the Awoken in the Dreaming City, that would be Paladin Kamala Rior.
8. Variks questioned quite a few of Petra's decisions as acting regent, including her lack of action towards preventing the Scorned Barons from growing in power.
9. Despite everything that has happened thus far, she has refused to change unlike Mara.

Command triggered by kuzmoo. Message link from · Jul 13, 2023, 3:46 AM

[trim grotto]

Christ
Of course Dova made a list

[chrome fog]

One of the first things reestablished after the server wipe

[fallow sky]

Thats hilarous, is there a lore tab or book for the 5th point?

[trim grotto]

Actually yes

One moment

[chrome fog]

I do not need Space Racist Petra being eternally alive and being severely hypocritical in her being a Guardian

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/refusal

[chrome fog]

Goddamn that fucking preview

[trim grotto]

He's just a little guy

[chrome fog]

What the fuck Petra

[trim grotto]

Petra is in a healthy mental state of mind

[chrome fog]

I do not look forward to an Episode about Awoken supremacists

[ember storm]

what was the thing she was asking about eido for this season

[fallow sky]

I like how mara was too lazy to something about the dreaming city curse so she gets petra, then petra is too lazy to do anything

[trim grotto]

Well Mara was dead for a while

At which time Petra took over

When Mara came back, well, she simply hasn't been able to fix it

They've both tried

[chrome fog]

She was able to do the same function as an Ascendent Hive reviving in their Throneworld, but because hers was Shattered by Oryx, she had to take some time to come back from the dead

Is that right?

[fallow sky]

Forsaken was a while ago, so i genuinely can't remember mara did that was productive during the weekly thingies

[ember storm]

she was doing things off in ascendant land

mostly preparing for the black fleet and the witness

[fallow sky]

When did we find out about the black fleets return?

We knew it existed because of the collapse but i don't remember what other information we really had about them at that time

[chrome fog]

Not really, we only knew that the Collapse was also heralded by the arrival of all the enemy races into the Sol System

All information regarding the Pyramids has been retroactive

[fallow sky]

Then how would mara know about the blacks fleets arrival all the way back in forsaken

[chrome fog]

Mara would've know, but we - the players - didn't

Mara wasn't really the more open person either

And we just killed her brother

And also she was still recovering from being dead

[shadow crypt]

So Mara was recruited to be a disciple?

[chrome fog]

Shadowkeep was the first time we really encountered the Pyramids as the campaign is initiated by the Scarlet Keep brood uncovering the Moon Pyramid and activating it

[chrome fog]

No

[fallow sky]

Sounds like a skill issue to me, get on our level

[chrome fog]

The fact she was able to carve out a Throneworld for herself not being an Ascendent Hive proves her capabilities and power, plus later on she destroyed a Pyramid too

[ember storm]

the witness basically gave her an application email in the form of a vision beamed directly into her head, this was post-WQ during the parasite quest

suffice to say the experience shook her up a bit and served as a big wakeup call

[fallow sky]

That was riven tho right?

The throne world not the pyramid

[ember storm]

the dreaming city isn’t the throne world

[fallow sky]

Oh no she used the sword logic and riven to create the throne world

I think

I may be misremembering

[jagged badge]

I’m pretty sure I recall Eleusinia being built with wish magic too

Not sure how she’d accomplish it otherwise

[chrome fog]

No, she used Riven to help create the Dreaming City

[fallow sky]

But also her throne world right? with some help from eris teaching her about sword logic

[chrome fog]

I was typing something about how the Ascendent Power we accrued from Taken King since Oryx's Throneworld allowed us to stockpile Ascendent Power by killing all of Oryx's Court (but we couldn't access it ourselves because we didn't have a Worm or other thing to do so, so we gave it to Mara) allowed her to Carve pieces of Oryx's Throneworld to use as her own, but then I realized that literally doesn't make sense

[chrome fog]

Mara knew of the Sword Logic independent of Eris

[fallow sky]

Real

[chrome fog]

All I know is that yea she took bits and pieces of Oryx's throneworld to make hers, and then Oryx found out and Shattered it

Which might've been assisted by Riven

[jagged badge]

I’m aware of that

I thought it was both

Her having a Throne is the only reason she survived Oryx no?

[chrome fog]

I was typing that big paragraph but then realized that I was getting events in the wrong order, my b

[trim grotto]

It was

Riven helped Mara craft it, which is why it exists without the Sword Logic or a Worm

Stop having fun discussions while I'm at work

I can't do both

[jagged badge]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-holt-brooklyn-nine-nine-brooklyn99-captain-raymond-holt-andre-braugher-gif-13945912

[chrome fog]

There was some weird bit about accruing Sword Logic on the Dreadnaught because of how Oryx revered it, but that could've been me being gaslit in lore

[rich veldt]

yes you can

[trim grotto]

Only when I'm on break

Or being cheeky because I've done half of my jobs for the day already

[plain vessel]

Y’all know anything about the lore that I need to know for final shape? I was never able to play forsaken or anything before beyond light, and I wanna get into it but all I know is “traveler and witness are basically opposites, darkness and light, witness had the alien lives and the hive were making people eat worms and making everyone follow them, and the traveler has the guardians and lightbearers or whatever the name was, and they’re all fighting for light and dark and control of the traveler and stuff, and the pyramids are basically ways to spread more of the darkness” I have no idea on what is happening besides this, I know oryx and calus and the others are effectively prophets or spreaders of the darkness and witness’s stuff, basically getting more people to join the darkness and all that, but I just need help understanding where the hell does any of the witch queen or beyond light and lightfall stuff come in, read a lot of lore and the timeline stuff, it is still super confusing 😭

TL:DR Ion know anything besides dark versus light and stuff

I need me like a 100 page pdf, if y’all got a long document, I’ll gladly take it

I just need help understanding stuff for final shape since I was not here to experience it all

[jagged badge]

Just to clarify, the Witness is not actually an opposite to the Traveler. The Witness was once a species that were blessed by it, but they all merged into one being and tried to use the Traveler to achieve the Final Shape, which is bad for the universe

Which is why the Traveler has spent all its eons fleeing the Witness

While also trying to help species along the way

[plain vessel]

So that’s why savathun had the traveler binded up and all, to stop it from getting away or helping?

[plain vessel]

Thank you so much for this, even if it isn’t much, I spent the last month thinking they were opposites 😭

[jagged badge]

I don’t blame you, that was the community consensus for ages until Season of the Deep revealed the Witness’ true origins

[jagged badge]

Nah. Savathûn opposes the Witness. Her plan however was to just keep the Traveler in her Throne World to prevent the Witness from getting to it

The reason we stop her plan is because it would have doomed us to extinction without the Traveler

[plain vessel]

Ahh, thank you, I know we have riven back and all that now, the whole dreaming city stuff is confusing but I’m understanding it doing season of the wish, but in general, I though savathun was with the witness since the hive was kind of on its side, wasn’t oryx and the hive siding with them?

Have a great day or night

[jagged badge]

Savathûn secretly turned on the Witness sometime before humanity’s Collapse

[trim grotto]

If you have any more specific questions I can definitely help answer those too
Can't do a huge overview since I'm on mobile right now though haha

[fresh zephyr]

The lore i'm mainly interested in is clovis bray. i don't care about the traveler hes obviously weak and cant beat the witness. I just find clovis interesting, his experiments, the vex and there knowledge, i find his daughters interesting also.

[jagged badge]

Btw, the Traveler isn’t a ‘he’. It’s been called it, they or even she sometimes

And yeah the Traveler doesn’t have the power to directly confront the Witness, but I kinda like that

The Traveler’s power is in how it helps people grow and fosters this

Like when its attack was really just its terraforming beam that made this surreal plantlife grow in the Witness’ Pyramid

[fresh zephyr]

What is the vex's goal? Do they have individual consciousness or is it under control by a hive mind, or are they like fish where they communicate via sounds or maybe they're using telepathy. They don't seem evil, not like the cabal anyway. Or are they just trying to take over the world, kill everything so they have no competitors and do what they like.

[jagged badge]

Convert everything to Vex

Becoming their own Final Shape

Not like what the Witness wants, mind

I could be mistaken but the way I understand it is that the Vex want to win the game, but as Immaru puts it, the Witness’ plan is more like pausing or turning the game off entirely

Iirc

[fresh zephyr]

Why don't we ally with the Eliksni and cabal. I understand we are "kinda friends" with the empress of the cabal, but her farther is power hungry/crazy and follow the witness, i guess some followed her and other stayed with the king. But i feel like we could be friends with the Eliksni or even the vex. maybe its impossible being friends with the vex, maybe they're cold hearted like the witness, maybe they feel we are the threat, i just thought the vex are crazy smart and have some insane technology, so being friends with them would help us. Maybe helping them with what they want and they could help us, idk. I just thought its best having allies than being alone, even with the light i'm trying to understand it from their perspective, maybe they see guardians as trigger happy soldiers, maybe they're jealous, i just feel that people in the tower, like zavala, etc, are stuck in the past and dont want to be allys? But obviously this is destiny and the more enemies we have the better as we can kill more things.

[ember storm]

we’ve been allies with Caiatl for years now and Calus is literally dead

I don’t really know what you want

there’s just no scenario where we become friends with every member of a civilization

Mithrax and Caiatl are beacons for hope for peace but that’s really all we can do

there’s always going to be people who dislike them or humanity

[fresh zephyr]

i didnt know that as i havent played destiny from the start.

[ember storm]

this is all explained in the timeline tab ingame

yknow the thing designed to give context on things you weren’t there for

there’s also lots of resources for finding lore if you want them

Mithrax and Caiatl definitely weren’t characters from the start, lol

[fresh zephyr]

i know what a timeline is i just thought this is a lore-discussion discord so why not use it. If that's the case remove this lore-discussion channel with a note saying "go on google"

[blazing wasp]

Huh

[ember storm]

you asked a question, I answered it and gave you a heads up about what could answer your question

that discussion

[blazing wasp]

We're a lore discussion channel yes, this doesn't mean we're suddenly better than every other method for every question

[fresh zephyr]

i dont care, i oblivious haven't played destiny that much

[blazing wasp]

It's just a channel for lore

That's it

That's why it says so.

[fresh zephyr]

yea i know that if i was going to anyone with my questions it would be "my name is byf"

[blazing wasp]

We got other resources than this channel we use, as for obvious reasons this channel is not the best resource for all forms of lore

[blazing wasp]

Incorrect

[ember storm]

the first pinned message in this channel is literally a bunch of lore resources

[fresh zephyr]

yea kinda true, guess he tells lies then.

[blazing wasp]

No

[ember storm]

(not really it’s a mod message but ignore that one)

[blazing wasp]

If you could

Let people talk ollie

It would simplify things

But for aforementioned reasons, and obvious reasons, sometimes you should use other resources for some lore questions

[fresh zephyr]

i do, but if eveyone is getting mad then ill just use youtube.

[blazing wasp]

Naturally it'd yield worse answers here if you wanted to know the basics of the entire timeline of events from d1 to current events

[blazing wasp]

I don't believe anyone is currently angry in any regards

[ember storm]

I don’t see anyone getting mad but you

[jagged badge]

I just got here but tbh I kinda think you could be a little less blunt and confrontational Waltz

[fresh zephyr]

if i was mad someone would be in hospital.

[blazing wasp]

The only thing I've seen so far is passive aggression from you, intentional or otherwise, towards genuine answers intended to help you

[jagged badge]

That ain’t helping either

Let’s all just chill I think

[fresh zephyr]

ok 🙂

[blazing wasp]

I am unsure how you'd be able to harm someone through a phone or computer screen

[ember storm]

ok I will admit this was probably in poor taste

I just get immediate flashbacks to Black_David whenever somebody mentions missing out on the beginning

[fresh zephyr]

you know what i mean, but you do you.

[blazing wasp]

I do not

[ember storm]

is there another lore thing you’d like to discuss

[fresh zephyr]

not with you 2 no, but with Eris sure.

[ember storm]

cool

[blazing wasp]

Huh

There's 4 people active in this chat

[ember storm]

sorry to say this channel basically dead since we’re in a very heavy slump in terms of game activity

and the only other active people are in other timezones either completely asleep or otherwise occupied

[blazing wasp]

I'm unsure what I did to them but

Alright

I had a lore question but I forgot it hangon

[ember storm]

ask another one

like doghives

[blazing wasp]

Doghives?

[ember storm]

did somebody mention doghives

[blazing wasp]

I did now

What's a doghive

[ember storm]

exactly what it sounds like

To be specific it’s a dog that’s been genetically spliced with beehives to house live bees and produce honeycombs

[blazing wasp]

Oh

Clovis?

[ember storm]

no but he wanted to give one to Elsie for her birthday

[blazing wasp]

Ah

[ember storm]

writer of the lore tab where they’re mentioned is Seth, and well

[blazing wasp]

What in the goddamn

[ember storm]

Someday I’ll get around to creating my artistic interpretation

this will be my model

[empty fern]

It will definitely be a lot more morbid than that

[ember storm]

he’s such a friend

look at him

[exotic cloak]

Wait Hawthorne is not a guardian?

[dim minnow]

she is not a Lightbearer

though Zavala has given her an honorary status as a Guardian

she even chose to support the Titans in the Guardian Games

so she is a Guardian, just not a Lightbearer like almost all Guardians are

it is worth noting that the term Guardian while used as a blanket term sometimes is really just meant to refer to Lightbearers who use their powers to safeguard the Last City and its people

Lightbearers being people who are rezzed by a Ghost and possess the powers of the Traveler's Light

might as well provide and restate some useful definitions while here

[worldly river]

Very friend shaped

[dim minnow]

Lightbearer - Term used to refer to those who wield the Light. Though those rezzed by Ghosts are most commonly referred to by this, there are some Lightbearers who didn't get their powers from a Ghost such as Ghaul who briefly managed to steal these powers for himself.
Risen - Term used during the Dark Age to refer to Lightbearers rezzed by a Ghost.
Warlords - Risen who used their power to rule over territory in a feudalist way.
Iron Lords - Risen who chose to band together to fight against Warlords. They would be crucial in the unification of many Risen as the Dark Age progressed.
Pilgrim Guard - Risen who would help guide and protect people who were traveling to the encampment that would later develop into the Last City. The title "Guardians" would be inspired by this group.
Guardian - When the City Age kicked off, this title was given to Lightbearers who chose to use their power to keep the Last City safe. Though as seen with Hawthorne, this title can apply to anyone who is devoted to the protection of the Last City even if they are not a Lightbearer.
Hive Guardian/Risen/Lightbearer - A Hive rezzed by a Ghost. I wouldn't call them Guardians though unless they become an actual ally later down the line. I'd consider Risen or Lightbearers a more fitting title for them.

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[chrome fog]

We should pin probably

[outer dragon]

We need more Pilgrim Guard lore damn it

Specifically armor

[empty fern]

Here have another mark that mentions them once

[willow dagger]

Mara and Crow are siblings?!

[dim minnow]

before Crow was first rezzed, he was Uldren, prince of the Awoken (also Mara's brother)

Uldren was a major prick to Guardians and was emotionally reliant on Mara (partly Mara's fault)

at some point, he would be corrupted by Darkness which would allow Riven to manipulate him

in the end, we would kill him

because he would kill Cayde-6 at the start of Forsaken

then some time later, Uldren's body was found by Glint who rezzed him

so now he goes by Crow

of course, he would eventually get Uldren's memories via Savathun

[willow dagger]

Wha- craaaaay

🦞

[willow dagger]

So who is Mara’s one true love?!

[full zephyr]

shaxx (via the helm message of riven)

[eternal widget]

(Riven of message helm the via) shaxx

[trim grotto]

Sjur Eido.

Do you know that name?

[full zephyr]

isnt that the wish ender lady

[trim grotto]

It is indeed

[full zephyr]

interesting

[trim grotto]

Mara and Sjur met back in the Distributary. With Sjur, it was literally love at first sight. They were together from then since, until Sjur's untimely... "death".

At the end of/after the Great Ahamkara Hunt, Sjur's body was found with Huginn and Muninn's bodies.
But... there is a prophesy that she may return.

[eternal widget]

Lady ender wish the that isint

[full zephyr]

they were the ahamkara skulls in the dreaminng city right? - whats the deal with them

[eternal widget]

Them with deal the what-?right city dreaming the in skulls ahamkara the were they

[trim grotto]

Prior to the Hunt, the Ahamkara freely roamed the Dreaming City. These two were Sjur's friends.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lethophobia

[full zephyr]

based by the end of the lore page, did sjur and them all fight? is that how she died?

rather how she "died"

[trim grotto]

Not quite! That part is far more confusing.

[full zephyr]

oh boy

[trim grotto]

A strange coin lay at the center of Abra's outstretched palm. Mara took it between thumb and forefinger and held up it to the cosmos with dainty contempt.

Weregild, she thought. Powerful grief filled her chest, as thick and caustic and heavy as unset concrete.

"And her bow?"

"Gone."

"Huginn? Muninn?"

"The Ahamkara are dead, and their bones are silent.```

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/oathkeeper

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wish-ender

And those lead us to Debt and the second half of Ecdysis, wherein Queen Mara Sov sends Orin, a Titan of the Pilgrim Guard, once a Distributary-Reefborn Awoken known as Nasan, to find out the truth.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/debt

[light stratus]

Rulk's ship is gigantic

[trim grotto]

That's only half of it. It's the Sunken Pyramid, after all.

Much is under the swamp.

[light stratus]

Dam

I'm doing the ritual mission and that's where I got the image

[grizzled zinc]

Holy fucking shit.

[eternal widget]

Shit fucking holy

[grizzled zinc]

Rhulk’s car got stuck in the swamp