📚lore-discussion

[empty fern]

Her sister

Elsie bray

[foggy bane]

oh

but she can dimension-travel yeah?

[jagged badge]

Not exactly

[jagged badge]

Elsie is trapped in a time loop. Starting on Cayde’s inauguration as Vanguard and restarting whenever the Traveler dies

[foggy bane]

ooooh

cuz i was wondering if we have tech advanced enough we can time-travel, the vanguard could make a giga Vanguard alliance

imagine 10 osiris huh

[frigid sparrow]

Idk what 10 guys without a ghost could do but sure

[jagged badge]

Yeah doesn’t work that way haha

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-stranger-gif-21613071

they would all have strand

[clear knot]

For you destiny lore nerds, I have a question.

Why is it that the gravity acts the same on all the planets we go on?

[jagged badge]

Terraforming

[clear knot]

Really cause I thought gravity was based on the mass of the planet?

[blazing wasp]

The traveler is paracausal

[static bluff]

it normally is but the traveler has the power to make things happen without being bound by the laws of physics, so it terraformed our planets and moons so that they're human friendly

[blazing wasp]

And explicitly denies natural laws of physics

[jagged badge]

Some if it is human terraforming too

We’ve been to places that haven’t been touched by the Traveler

[blazing wasp]

The traveler could probably just alter the gravity without changing the mass

[jagged badge]

(And ofc some if it is just handwavey “it’s a video game and it’s convenient”)

[blazing wasp]

Could also just be guardians being able to naturally adjust to gravity

Cause paracausality

[jagged badge]

That would be a good argument if our enemies weren’t also there at these places

[empty fern]

They also had enough tech to do that

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-mars-cabal-destiny-1-cabal-gif-7408724813982513303

Best cabal

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-gaming-explode-gif-9333242

Then there was this

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-lightfall-shadow-legion-gif-26564152

And this

[shadow crypt]

Is zavala awoken?

[jagged badge]

Yes

He bloo

[shadow crypt]

👍

[ember storm]

tbf i feel cabal are so heavy they'd negate any low gravity

[empty fern]

True as well

So like

[empty fern]

What was I gonna say

[shadow crypt]

What is the ishtar collective?

[smoky rose]

A golden age research group

They did a lot of work on Venus with the Vex

[shadow crypt]

Ah ok

Also was the first collapse during the red war or something?

[outer dragon]

No

[shadow crypt]

Or was it before the red war

[outer dragon]

Way before

Here is a curated timeline of events in the Destiny universe @shadow crypt
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/timeline

If there is anything you want specific info on just ask and people here will get you pointed in the right direction

[smoky rose]

As far as exact years we don't have a lot but it was likely at least 1000 years ago

From present in the destiny universe

[trim grotto]

Anywhere from centuries to thousands of years ago. The Collapse ended the Golden Age, and then began the Dark Age, which lasted centuries. Then the City Age, also centuries. Now here.

[empty fern]

Were the skyburners any relevant before the dreadnaught?

[dim minnow]

just to be sure, there isn't any dialogue pertaining to the secret portal at the end of Starcrossed right?

all that happened was I went in there, got the Starcat and emblem, and that was it

[shadow crypt]

Yep

It feels like we could have gotten some dialogue

[dim minnow]

hmmm

well the fact an Ishtar logo is sitting in some random spot in the Black Garden is odd

I'm willing to bet that it has something to do with Echoes

Bungie is already setting up Revenant

chances are they're trying to set up Echoes and Heresy as well

[shadow crypt]

Which alien race is this?

Scorn?

[dim minnow]

Revenant is the name of the 2nd episode that will take place in the next year

from what we saw, it appears to be focusing on Fikrul

so yeah, Revenant is going to be Scorn-centered

also, the Scorn aren't their own species

they are a form of reanimated Eliksni

[outer dragon]

Though they, the Scorn under Fikrul specifically, are developing their own culture.
I would argue they see themselves as distinctly separate from the Eliksni

[uneven canyon]

So why was there an ishtar symbol in the black garden?

[dim minnow]

as far as I know, we have no explanation

maybe it is related to Praedyth's encounter with the Ishtar researcher simulations

they did escape the Black Garden at the end of Aspect if I recall correctly

maybe this is supposed to be setup for Echoes which comes out not long after TFS

[shadow crypt]

He’s the warlock that got lost in time right?

in the vault of glass

[dim minnow]

yes

part of Kabr's fireteam

[shadow crypt]

Can you give a brief summary of what happened to praedyth?

Ik he got like lost in time

but that’s about it

[dim minnow]

so at one point, a fireteam of at least three (some speculate that there were more, but we aren't sure) went into the Vault of Glass

[ember storm]

I mean I wouldn’t say it’s because Fikrul himself is special that this is happening

[dim minnow]

this fireteam consisted of Kabr, Pahanin, and Praedyth

[ember storm]

Scorn were developing their own culture back in Lost while Fikrul was still stuck getting routinely executed in the tangled shore

More so I think that the scorn following the witness are just reduced and simplified

there’s just no room for growth with them whatsoever

[dim minnow]

Kabr's fireteam managed to make it to Templar before they were stopped and in the end, Praedyth was imprisoned by the Vex while Kabr sacrificed the last of his Light to create the Aegis which is the shield we use in the raid

Pahanin was able to escape the Vault only to be killed by Dredgen Yor much later

and due to the power the Vex have over the VoG, Kabr and Praedyth have been almost forgotten

until the Taken War (during The Taken King expansion) when we hear a distress signal coming from the Vault

this signal came from Praedyth himself, and we find out that the Taken on Venus are trying to take over the Vex there

we had to stop them because the Taken having that kind of power would be disastrous

[shadow crypt]

In the paradox mission right?

[dim minnow]

so in the end, we wipe out the Taken infection from the Vault and we find Praedyth's body

[dim minnow]

yes

we don't get much info from Praedyth for quite some time until the Aspect lore book

where Praedyth is locked in the Black Garden and one day he recieves a message from some simulated copies of a team of Ishtar scientists

these simulations are copies of Maya Sundaresh, Chioma Esi, Dr. Shim, and Duane McNiadh

which leads to him coordinating a rescue operation with the simulations

[shadow crypt]

I thought praedyth got like lost in time or something?

[dim minnow]

and it should be noted that there are at least 100-200 sets of these simulations

[dim minnow]

yeah sort of, which is why he was locked up in the Black Garden due to its relation to the VoG

[shadow crypt]

But didn’t we find his body?

[dim minnow]

so eventually, the sets of simulations make it to Praedyth with some of them dying along the way

and then they wait for the perfect opportunity to escape which I believe is when Season of Undying begins

[dim minnow]

I'd chalk that up to weird Vex time fuckery

[shadow crypt]

Ah ok lol

[shadow crypt]

Did Praedyth escape too?

[dim minnow]

yeah, he got out with them

but as of now we haven't seen him or the simulated Ishtar scientists yet

maybe the Ishtar logo we saw at the end of Starcrossed is a sign

[shadow crypt]

Possibly

so essentially praedyth and the simulations are alive?

but we haven’t seen them recently

[dim minnow]

or they're stuck in a sort of limbo where they aren't quite out yet

kind of hard to figure it out with the wording they used

[shadow crypt]

Ah i see

Also why are there simulated copies of the Ishtar scientists?

[dim minnow]

It's a slim chance. But a chance is all they need.

The Garden's massive door hums, an echo of the song the Goblins sing as they tend the flowers. The first Minotaur readies itself to step through, shield coming awake around it.

Everything that has happened is, from a certain point of view, always happening. Everything that will happen is happening. If you know how to slice the ribbon of chronology thin enough, you can step through to the necessary moment. If you know how to tear it…

A hundred and sixty Mayas reach for the Chiomas by their side. A hundred and fifty-eight Chiomas reach back.

One Praedyth, waiting for the conductor's baton to drop. Uncountable Vex in the Garden, waiting for the same event, a synchrony none of them notice.

Somewhere, a veil is always lifting.

Somewhere, Kabr is always dooming himself.

Somewhere, a door is always opening.

Somewhere, they are always stepping through.```

[dim minnow]

ok so back in the Golden Age, Maya Sundaresh, Chioma Esi, Dr. Shim, and Duane McNiadh were all researching a captured Vex subject on Venus

then at some point they figure out that the Vex is simulating them which is bad because chances are they might be simulations and the Vex could put said simulations through hell

if you want to know what I mean by that, refer to this quote

ok nvm

for some reason the pins on lore chat have been wiped except for two messages

[shadow crypt]

Ah ok

[candid inlet]

dovadah (ID 437459720937144320)

Message Link to #📚lore-discussion

The Vex are, so far, simply curious. But Vex curiosity always leads to Vex transformation [...]

The Vex will not rest until every star has been crushed into a black hole and every newborn cosmos filled with more Vex. And in the unending array of their enslaved cosmos, they will simulate all possible pasts, and fill those with Vex, so that all things that have ever lived or might ever live will experience infestation and consumption and torment by the silica nightmare.

And in those devoured simulations, the simulated Vex will use our flesh as hosts for yet more nested universes full of yet more nested copies of us eternally tormented by yet more Vex.

An infinite regression of pain and madness inflicted upon every possible version of us in every possible world. Not because they hate us, or fear us, or want to punish us. But because they are indifferent and curious, and they will do every possible thing to us in every possible way.```

Command triggered by dovadah. Message link from · Aug 7, 2023, 11:10 PM

[dim minnow]

ok here it is

[shadow crypt]

so the scientists could be simulations themselves without knowing it?

[dim minnow]

basically

and the real ones wouldn't want simulations of themselves being tortured by Vex

so they got a Warmind to help them out

[shadow crypt]

Rasputin?

[dim minnow]

due to its complexity, the Vex couldn't simulate it

[dim minnow]

probably

I guess Rasputin is the only one

who knows

[shadow crypt]

so when they first arrive on Venus are they their actual selfs?

[dim minnow]

anyways, so the Warmind saves all of the simulations from the Vex (there were a total of 227 sets of 4 simulations)

[dim minnow]

yeah?

[shadow crypt]

Ahh

Okay

[dim minnow]

and after the Warmind saved the simulations, the Scientists decided to release them all into the Vex Network

which is how they were eventually able to reach out to Praedyth hundreds of years later

huh, just found a small excerpt referencing that the Moon's gravity was changed during the Golden Age for an unknown reason

so it looks like the Moon's gravity ingame is canon

[shadow crypt]

Praedyth must have been bored

[dim minnow]

he had to spend a lot of his time betting on which Vex units will trip on some greenery and fall of a ledge

[shadow crypt]

Lol

[shadow crypt]

Do we jump higher on the moon?

I actually never noticed that at all

[gentle geyser]

Most likely not

I think we all would notice

[dim minnow]

Moon gravity is the same as everywhere else ingame I think

[trim grotto]

It is
Traveler changed it

[dim minnow]

yeah, and it happened back in the Golden Age

and I think Dr. Shim's first name is Brisk

[gentle geyser]

Can’t have shit on the moon

[trim grotto]

Technically, there's more on the Moon now.

[trim grotto]

Oh?

[dim minnow]

at least that's what I think

"What do you have with you?" That's Maya, Dr. Sundaresh. Brisk. The others listen to her when she speaks.

[trim grotto]

Brisk being used as a description of her statement here, I believe.

Maya's statement, that is.

[dim minnow]

probably

[forest dove]

ok so my boy saint 14 was sleeping with a hive god?

[hearty dew]

whaaaaaat

[trim grotto]

No.

Savathûn, as Osiris, was distant, and often avoiding or ignoring him.

It made Saint-14 very emotional distraught.

[fast tapir]

man i feel really bad for saint after reading some lore tabs between them 😔

[chrome fog]

Thankfully Saint got to get back at Savathun by destroying the ever living shit out of her repeatedly after she rezzed and flew off after the ending of Witch

[fast tapir]

yeah thats true

[empty fern]

What’s the recap on what happened to the dreadnaught after kings fall? (Or after d2)

[ember storm]

left to rot, osiris visited it pre-hunt, now xivu's forces are bumming around inside

[empty fern]

Wait xivus?

(Does that mean it could return in heresy)

[ember storm]

D1 assets

[empty fern]

Poggers indeed

[fast tapir]

damn thats true

id love to see her use it

[empty fern]

We all know those wrathborne spires would be littered everywhere

[fast tapir]

for a chance

please leave those behind bungie

they are so ugly

[empty fern]

No

Well

Now that xivu lost most of her power (during which season) maybe

[fast tapir]

yippee!

i wonder if we kill her

i mean

probably

right?

[empty fern]

We will at some point

Either during final shape or heresy episode

But maybe even after that

[fast tapir]

gah

[empty fern]

(Cause she’s like, the last of the hive powers now)

[fast tapir]

yeah

[empty fern]

Unless oryx wakes up again but ehhhh

[fast tapir]

probably wont happen

[empty fern]

Yea

Well

Oryx waking up would make him think of himself as heresy

So it’s not too far out there

[fast tapir]

yeah

[empty fern]

Xivu wakes oryx up and he’s angry and calls heresy (stuff like that)

Type faster

[fast tapir]

no

i do wonder if they will finish whats happening with eramis in TFS or not

[chrome fog]

I’d like to see the Dreadnaught turned more fleshy, to give a complimentary aesthetic to the Dreadnaught being all bone

[chrome fog]

She just going to see her wife

[fast tapir]

i know that but

thats it?

surely theres more

[empty fern]

Nope

Fallen plot holes are being tied

[fast tapir]

damn

thats boring

done through lore tabs too? crazy

[empty fern]

Who knows

We got a scorn episode coming up

[ember storm]

I mean did you really want to see Eramis again

[fast tapir]

yes

[empty fern]

Here

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-gif-18872041

[fast tapir]

oh wow

thank you so much

[jagged badge]

Plot holes?

[ember storm]

probably meant threads

[jagged badge]

Threads holes?

[ember storm]

actually fallen plot holes are being threads

[empty fern]

Thread

Lings?

[fast tapir]

oh no

[worldly river]

Honestly after the buildup from Eramis in Plunder and the final cutscene of Seraph, her pretty much immediately (after that one appearance in Defiance) fucking off from the system for the climax does feel a BIT anticlimactic to me

But I look forward to eventually seeing her again

[empty fern]

Maybe even see athrys in an ink blot cutscene

[fast tapir]

true!

god i hate those cutscenes

[worldly river]

It does feel like they planned to have her story conclude in or around FS but decided she'd be better used in the future and back burnered her for now, which I'm alright with

[fast tapir]

after having so many over the past years shit is real tiring

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

[fast tapir]

screenshot taken

[ember storm]

honestly I like the cutscenes

[empty fern]

Ignore that

[worldly river]

I like both being able to have more regular cuts ends and that the ink blot ones can more easily cover a wider swath of lore at once since they can jump between scenes and even time periods

[fast tapir]

hard not to

[ember storm]

it’s better than just standing around while two characters talk in the helm

[fast tapir]

thats true

[jagged badge]

Wholesome aaah cutscene

[ember storm]

like the Saint monster blot was fucking peak

[jagged badge]

Plus the stylisation really makes some of the cutscenes stand out visually

[fast tapir]

but we got one for the origins of the witness and that made me mad fr

[ember storm]

or the Saladin village one

[ember storm]

I’m not upset about the cutscene itself I just wish it were more tied to LF

like having to wait an entire season for it was silly

[fast tapir]

yeah

[worldly river]

Yeah lol

[ember storm]

defiance was just nothing

[fast tapir]

the sparrow lady died

[ember storm]

like you’d think Crow would at least fucking mention Amanda for his motivation this season but no

[fast tapir]

literally

[worldly river]

Honestly if they had been able to tie that cutscene to the end of the initial Veil Containment it would have at least been better

Even if they couldn't attach to to LF proper

[fast tapir]

i like how crow ran into the portal

[worldly river]

I mean the Veil is itself a collective memory of the universe, it'd be easy to be like "Yo it showed us a vision of the Witness's origins"

[fast tapir]

what if he just flew off a cliff when he entered

[worldly river]

Lmao

[ember storm]

yeah it’s going to take six months for glint to fly down to the bottom and rez him

it’s a very tall cliff

[worldly river]

Glint just like

[fast tapir]

lmao

[ember storm]

I’m joking but glint was literally just flying around empty space looking for his guardian

[fast tapir]

ye

[ember storm]

ritualistically checking all the awoken corpses around the battle of saturn

what was his plan if he managed to revive one

flag the tower for emergency pickup while they immediately die in the vacuum of space over and over?

[worldly river]

I will say I'm not really sure HOW you'd tie Amanda into his motives here besides something indirect like "The Witness is responsible for Amanda's death and we must stop it" or something

[fast tapir]

at least say something about her?

say some shit like

"this is for her"

[worldly river]

Yeah you'd think he would have mentioned her at all
Did he mention her in Deep or Witch lore anywhere?

[ember storm]

I mean just one line like “we’ve gone too far to stop now, hesitating would be an insult to those we’ve lost” or something

[ember storm]

no it was Sloane

[worldly river]

That'd be a good line actually

[ember storm]

crow has never mentioned Amanda once since defiance

[fast tapir]

even though the entire universe is at stake and not just a singular burnt lady

[worldly river]

Would be very Hunter of him to say that

[ember storm]

bungie hire me so I can be laid off

[fast tapir]

true

[worldly river]

🔥

[ember storm]

defiance honestly would’ve been a bit better if it actually focused on “the little guy” aspects of it

but no it was just built around awoken which kinda defeated the whole point

like Amanda sacrificing herself probably would’ve had more impact if the season was actually made around the point of everyone banding together

not just “use the awoken magic because you’re the only one able to do anything here”

[fast tapir]

oh save citizens from the scary shadow legion!!!

[ember storm]

what were they even doing

[empty fern]

The ghost could definitely cobble together a helmet or something,

[worldly river]

I kinda forgot how much it was a sort of "Awoken season" because like nothing about the Awoken was important to it

[ember storm]

“eat this witness dust”

[fast tapir]

yum

[empty fern]

(I’m late I know)

[ember storm]

he has a name

[fast tapir]

transmat the body

yeah its glint

[worldly river]

Just illustrating the Awoken working more closely with the rest of the Coalition, though we haven't once seen more of that afaik

[empty fern]

I know I just forgot for a second

[ember storm]

ok but now you’ve got a horribly bubbled up frozen carcass lying on the floor of the tower mail room

[fast tapir]

lmao

[worldly river]

The important stuff was Devrim, Amanda, and Mithrax

[jagged badge]

I wonder if Glint has gone through with Crow or not

[worldly river]

I mean yeah

[empty fern]

I hope he did

Like our ghost made this on the spot so glint or any ghost could definitely cobble something together from an after battle

[ember storm]

I mean ghosts being in your “backpack” probably still counts as one person

[jagged badge]

Who knows

Wishes be tricky

[empty fern]

Watch riven specifically make it 1 person

[ember storm]

yeah but none of it was functional besides stopping a little bit of bullet

[fast tapir]

did she not?

[ember storm]

there’s no life support or oxygen system

[empty fern]

If her relationship with terenis didn’t affect it then it’s more likely

[fast tapir]

i mean

she tricked us

said 1 only

mara mad

[worldly river]

Sending Crow in there without Going would be tantamount to suicide methinks

[fast tapir]

yknow

[ember storm]

it was Savathun’s wish

the wish was already made

[fast tapir]

riven still did the trick

[empty fern]

I feel like there would be SOMETHING among the several ketches and awoken

[fast tapir]

didnt tell us

[ember storm]

Riven can’t change what’s inputted to the wishing wall

[jagged badge]

Sending anyone in there would

[worldly river]

At least a Guardian has more of a chance since they can be ressed

[ember storm]

would you rather be rezzed under a cabal mining rig or in the depths of space

[worldly river]

Not than it helped whatshisface in Deep

[jagged badge]

Joxer

[fast tapir]

rip joxer

he will be missed

[empty fern]

Hmmmm

[fast tapir]

maybe the rig

space is like

scary

yo

[empty fern]

The gambit map rig

[fast tapir]

it all comes back to gambit

[empty fern]

Imagine all the ghosts that died and their guardians (if they had one) if they found a spot full of vex

[worldly river]

Gambit is the Final Shape

They stop developing Gambit because the entire game will become Gambit

[ember storm]

I love it when drifter said the classic line “Gambit is a chance at Destiny Two”

[fast tapir]

also, with the whole end of the universe thingy going on you'd think we would see the exo stranger

[empty fern]

So that’s where gambit pinnacle went

[ember storm]

was she in the helm during the lf opening

I can’t remember

[fast tapir]

uhh

yes

[jagged badge]

Yea

[fast tapir]

i think so

but

[smoky rose]

She was

[fast tapir]

thats like it

other than a lore book entry in witch

[smoky rose]

She’s busy coping over our Eris shenanigans

[ember storm]

cool she got her contractually obligated appearance

[smoky rose]

It’s okay

[ember storm]

I mean the unfortunate truth is that due to the whole nature of her existence Elsie was never going to be relevant after BL

[jagged badge]

I really wanna see a resolution between Elsie and Eris

[smoky rose]

We are wayyyy past where Elsie has ever gotten before so ig she doesn’t have much to offer at this point

[empty fern]

What happened between Elsie and eris?

[ember storm]

everything happening is outside of her knowledge so she’s just another shmoe with stasis now

[empty fern]

Eris tf did you do?

[jagged badge]

Elsie was beyond pissed about Eris becoming a Hive God

[smoky rose]

Became a hive god

[ember storm]

remember the time Eris went evil and killed everyone and caused Ana to have to be killed by Elsie

[fast tapir]

yes, but she is important no? also the whole time loop thing

[ember storm]

not really

[jagged badge]

And Eris was pretty cold in the way she responded about Elsie in turn

[empty fern]

Oh the hive god thing in a dark future?

Oof

[ember storm]

at this point it’s just not relevant anymore

[smoky rose]

Well the time loop reset every time the traveler died

[ember storm]

this point in time is further than she’s ever gotten ever

[smoky rose]

And the traveler always died circa beyond light at best

So at this point Elsie doesn’t have anything useful to say

[jagged badge]

Ikora: “I can’t keep ignoring Elsie”
Eris: “I have no trouble doing so.”

[ember storm]

if anything with how deepsight works and the time anomalies on Mars, it seems the Witness might just be responsible for the loop to ensure the traveler stays alive for the final shape

[fast tapir]

alright so if the universe ends right, will this loop still happen?

[ember storm]

regardless it’s just not important now

no

[fast tapir]

well if it ends she will get what she wanted

[ember storm]

what the witness is doing isn’t really ending the universe

and the traveler definitely isn’t going to be destroyed

so no loop

this is it

we either win or we lose

[empty fern]

The build up
The expectations
The sudden fire at bungie hq that will definitely not affect this

But yea

Final shape, and the episode that will come with it

And also that feature where a worlds first needs to beat the raid so we all can get the final story mission

Wonder why they specifically pointed that out

(OOO AND THE STRIKES)

[worldly river]

As others have mentioned yeah, which probably means she's in FS if the theory about that all having been the opening cutscene to FS is true

[willow flax]

whats the purple gooey muck stuff you can see on cabal ships there was some on leviathan and some in duality

i dont know what it is

[dim minnow]

royal wine made from planets devoured by the Leviathan

[willow flax]

oh yeah and what happened to the crown of sorrow after season of the haunted

[dim minnow]

we probably put it back in the vaults

or got rid of it

I doubt there will be any more need for it in the future

[keen oracle]

When we hear xivu in season of the deep where exactly is she? Is she watching us from the ascendant plane?

[willow flax]

from her throne world most likely

[trim grotto]

Essentially, yes.

[empty fern]

(Another d1 pic) did they reuse this guys model during deep or witch?

(Oh wait this is lore)
Why are some enemies named stuff like “sword of crota” and “teeth of xivu arath” titles

[dim minnow]

they are "disciples" of those characters

or at least some of them are

[empty fern]

I see

[dim minnow]

Eyes of Crota
Fist of Crota
Sardon, Fist of Crota
Omnigul, Will of Crota
Heart of Crota

these guys are Crota's disciples

and they are all part of him in a way

if I'm correct, killing each of them weakens Crota

[empty fern]

Part of him? Like through the tithe system

Ah ok yea

[dim minnow]

kind of like how killing Crota hurt Oryx a lot

and given that Sardok was given the title of "Eye of Oryx" along with the fact that he was left at a Shrine of Oryx, it can be assumed that Oryx uses Sardok to watch over the shrine

keep in mind that there are other Shrines of Oryx that apparently Osiris knew about

I estimate that there are three total

well no actually

better to say that there are three eye of Oryx enemies

not sure how many shrines there are

but they do all connect back to the Court of Oryx on the Dreadnaught

[empty fern]

Cool

[empty fern]

Now what about vex titles
They have some weird ones like “corruption mind”

[thorny sequoia]

This is in direct corelation with the Veil Containtment story we got last season right?

[empty fern]

It’s related probably

But also what? Are there 2 praydths? The skeleton in paradox and the one with the simulated scientists?

[wheat flower]

In what why did the great hunt change ikora?

[jagged badge]

Ahamkara funky shenanigans apparently

[blazing wasp]

Probably like the ishtar team being simulated by a vex goblin and freed

I haven't read any of that yet so

[dim minnow]

can't recall exactly, but I know she made some sort of wish that changed her personality-wise

made her more serious

[empty fern]

Faintly remember

[ember storm]

she got the best omelette known to the universe and was distraught she could never have it again

[frigid sparrow]

"blade transform" like quria why can't you be normal

vex do have some banger titles though

I love boss titles in games I can't get enough of them

"Transcendent Mind" "Pitiless Mind" "Primordial Ruin" god i love vex

"Sanctified Mind, Sol Inherent" like bro basically has two titles even if the first is sort of its name

[ember storm]

she was designed to study and help the vex conquer sword logic

they’re named after what they’re made for

sol inherent is a subset of the sol divisive which the GoS bosses are

[empty fern]

Wait

Were the gos bosses all that important to the sol divisive?

[frigid sparrow]

they were basically super darkness vex

[ember storm]

…what did you think the raid was about

[empty fern]

I got 2 kinda opposite answers

Well

Nvm they the same

[frigid sparrow]

the real reason we had to stop the sanctified mind was because it threatened the fates of the game's music going forward and the possibility that nothing could top its sick beats

[empty fern]

Wait
Do people actually like the gos soundtrack?

[jagged badge]

GoS has great music

Eden is ethereal and gorgeous for one

[chrome fog]

They were important in that they carried out the function of the Vault of Glass as well as protected it, the Vault of Glass itself an ontological weapon that can edit the reality it encompasses. Kill the internal mechanisms as quick as possible, you prevent the Vault of Glass from operating as it should, protecting the universe from further Vex domination

Of course, the entire thing was also bankrolled on Darkness

[empty fern]

Neat

[smoky rose]

A lot of people

One of the best final boss themes ever made

[vocal nebula]

If there were to be a trans guardian, would ghost resurrect them pre or post transition?

[gentle geyser]

It doesn’t matter nor would matter

Ghost would res them regardless

Also it would most certainly pick how they appeared before death

It would just pick whatever form is most suitable

[ember storm]

exos literally exist I don’t see how this is even a question

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm Micah-10

[ember storm]

like seriously

if ghost resurrection keeps you in the entire replacement robot body

I don’t think surgery is a big deal

[trim grotto]

Are you referring to a transition made pre initial rez or post initial rez?

Pre rez seems clear, given that Micah-10 exists. Granted, she's in an Exo body, but I'd say the logic can carry over.

[forest dove]

According to lore Mara Sov is old no?

[dim minnow]

she is really old

I forget how long she was in the Distributary though

but I do know that she arrived at the Reef in the later part of the Dark Age

so that already adds a hundred or so

[forest dove]

so Shaxx is younger than her?

oh sorry LORD SHAXX

[dim minnow]

I know she was in the Distributary for a long ass time

so she is older than Shaxx

also worth noting that she was born during the Golden Age before she became Awoken

[trim grotto]

Queen Mara Sov is older than all Guardians.
Except, perhaps, Praedyth.

[forest dove]

who praedyth?

[dim minnow]

Guardian imprisoned in the darkest corners of time

within the Black Garden

[forest dove]

for doing what?

[trim grotto]

He was caught/killed/trapped by the Vex of the Vault of Glass.

[dim minnow]

claimed to KTWD in VoG but didn't KWTD

[smoky rose]

He was captured by the Vex while part of the first fireteam to enter the Vault of Glass

[forest dove]

damn

[dim minnow]

ok, so according to this quote from Marasenna, Mara is at least a few thousand years old

@forest dove

"Conventional relativity would suggest that time outside an event horizon passes quickly compared to a clock within, but our universe has a peculiar relationship with its mother. Thousands of years have passed for us on the Distributary. Outside? Centuries, at most. We are a swift eddy in a slow river.

[forest dove]

same man i dont like petra either

[forest dove]

oh wait what so she was near a black hole

[dim minnow]

the firstborn Awoken were the crew and passengers of a colony ship that got sucked into a singularity made by a clash between Light and Dark

maybe 12.1 billion years

for Mara's age

Marasenna gets weird with wording

[chrome fog]

I believe there’s a cutscene somewhere showcasing that beam hitting the Exodus Green as the Pyramids encroached, but I don’t remember where

In any case, she and the first couple of Awoken were awake before there were even Guardians

Considering the clash happened during the time of the Collapse

[hazy grove]

i was standing next to xur in eternity and he said "we are similar exo, but not the same" what does that mean

also i have no clue what xur is and what the nine are

[chrome fog]

Xur is a mystery

The Nine are sentient space dust whose well being is tied to the gravitational fields of each planet, and their sentience dependent on life in the Sol System

[dim minnow]

We know that Xur is a Jovian who were humans transformed presumably by the Nine

[chrome fog]

Jovian in this case being someone from past the asteroid belt

Presumably one of the colony ships or colonies made past that barrier such as the Titan Arcology

[dim minnow]

Possibly a group of humans who were on Rhea

Since the Nine care a lot about that moon

[trim grotto]

Alrighty, so we've got three distinct questions here.
For Xûr's statement... it doesn't mean much at all. You could try and interpret it different ways, for example by suggesting that since an Exo's mind is copied and transferred to a new body, Xûr may be saying the same thing happened to him, but that's not entirely accurate.

What Xûr is, is an interesting question. As far as we know, Xûr was once a colonist from somewhere out past Jupiter. He seems to have offered himself to the Nine willingly, for... some reason.
Thing is, the Nine don't truly understand life, so when they remade Xûr's body, they... didn't do a good job. He's dying, slowly.
They made him as an agent, a go-between for the Nine and the Guardians.

As for the Nine. Well, there's a truly fascinating lore book about that. Dust, with focus on an entry within it called The Nine. They're sentient swirls of dark matter, space dust that flows in loops throughout all of the Solar System. Their form is granted by the gravitational forces of the celestial bodies of Sol, and their minds are given thought by the life that exists within Sol's borders. They are everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing.

[chrome fog]

Ye Xur's cells are essentially dissolving/exploding slowly

[hazy grove]

the nine dont have any way to heal xur?

what do the nine actually do?

or what can they do

[trim grotto]

Here's an example of the Nine attempting to create a lifeform

7. At 690:29:54 the gate emitted a tubular organism. For ninety seconds the organism moved across the gate chamber by contracting and expanding, then expired. Remote dissection describes a two-meter-long body with a spinal cavity full of energy-rich carbohydrate fluid. The organism's contractions forced this fluid through a capillary network, where simple cells catabolized the carbohydrates into energy to power further contractions. The buildup of heat and waste quickly denatured the enzymes required for metabolism, and the organism died. There were no provisions for self-repair or reproduction.

[hazy grove]

ah theyre really really bad at making life

[trim grotto]

If you want to learn about the Nine, try this lore book. Great read.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dust

[smoky rose]

Well one of them caused a storm that completely blinded the tower’s sensor array allowing the red legion to approach undetected for the red war

[dim minnow]

it wasn't that

they delayed Destiny 2's release by a day

so the Guardians couldn't predict the Red War

[blazing wasp]

The nine are so powerful they can affect upper narrative layers

[empty fern]

The honse all along

[jagged badge]

[empty fern]

Why is that in Ishtar of all servers

[jagged badge]

Ishtar has loads of weird emojis

[empty fern]

Why did they googlly eye everything (the real destiny lore)

[wheat flower]

Can the awoken make nore techeuns?

Cause to be a techeun you had to develop a bond with a harvlbinger no?

But those are all gone except maras

So no more techeuns?

[jagged badge]

Petra is resuming her Techeun training iirc so

[jagged badge]

I have no idea about this myself but I’m not really educated on Techeun lore so

[trim grotto]

"More Techeuns" was half of the plot of Season of the Lost.

They've already trained and are training Techeuns since

[empty fern]

Hmmmm

Does mara have any light bearers working for her? (No crow shouldn’t count)

[trim grotto]

Not unless you count the whole Season of Defiance's Queensguard thing.

[ember storm]

at this point I really don’t see why Mara would need some private Lightbearer force

even in her “holier than thou” days she actively despised the traveler so it’s not like she wanted any around

the city and the awoken have already been tightly bonded for years now, if Mara needed guardian assistance she’d just call up the vanguard like always (meaning we’re showing up)

[frigid kiln]

What does this translate into? I found it and I’m curious

[trim grotto]

That, my friend, is many years old. It's part of the old Black Armory stuff from around Forsaken's era.

[frigid kiln]

So its eliksni?

[trim grotto]

No, it's norse

[frigid kiln]

Okay, I’ll try to translate it then

[trim grotto]

I don't recall the exact translation, but it was part of the mysterious puzzles towards... I believe it was unlocking Izanagi's Burden.

This whole thing doesn't exist anymore, of course.

[frigid kiln]

Naturally

I got “Jitw eyes” so far 😭

[trim grotto]

With Eyes Fixed Past Dawns End The Fourth Flame Will Rise Bring The Knowledge Obtained By The Raiders Of Secrets Steel Thyself

[frigid kiln]

I was off by alot 😭

[little gorge]

i haven't seen anyone mention this here but "akardon" (as in "akardon, pitiless mind") literally means pitiless in greek

well literally literally it means "heartless"

[civic raven]

Is the sol system basically the solar system?

[jagged badge]

Yes

[civic raven]

Are the destinations we see in the game all that is in sol system?

[jagged badge]

Other than funky dimensional stuff like the Black Garden and the Ascendant Plane for example, yeah

[ember storm]

it is called the sol system in real life

named after the Sun

[empty fern]

Impossible

[chrome fog]

God the trauma of "Sol named after Traveler" Guy

That was such a nothing bait and the dude even sounded dumber in vc

[empty fern]

I missed that bait, when did it happen?

[chrome fog]

Maybe last year around this time? Or leading up to Lightfall, I know I left the server for a bit afterwards

[empty fern]

Oof

[arctic iron]

maybe one day

will get a nine episode

idk how theyd fit in outside of the light v dark tho

[jagged badge]

Wait for the ninth episode

[arctic iron]

[outer dragon]

[empty fern]

Who’s “the third man” again? (Ancient lore I know)

[dim minnow]

D1 exotic armor lore for the most part only amounted to a single flavor text so we probably don't have anything on what the Third Man refers to

the helmet though seems to correlate heavily to the Hive given its design

[empty fern]

I see

Cool

(Watch it be someone on erises team)

[fresh zephyr]

Paracausality is basically just anime bullshit science

some random dude challenges you to a gun fight, you vaporize them and instead of just dying like a filthy casual with Causality, they just blink back into existence fully healed and with an overshield

Paracausality

[empty fern]

What is gensym? (D2 armor set named after them and a warlock bond in d1)

[dim minnow]

Gensym Scribes were an order originating from the Awoken in the Distributary

In later days, the power of the Queen waned, and the Distributary was ruled by scholars who sent their knights on mad quests to test the consistence of reality. These were the Gensym Scribes, who traced their origin to Kelda Wadj, the Allteacher, but who were in fact descendants of a band of roving storytellers who traveled across the immense salt glades in a hollering convoy of airboats. Here was their praise of the world:

Asher Mir is a notable one

and the order seemed to have opposed Mara Sov for a while back then

eventually, the Gensym Scribes would lose their political power in the Distributary

though it would seem that some Gensym Scribes were with Mara when she and her followers left the Distributary

seeing as how the order persists in Sol as evident by Asher Mir

[empty fern]

Neat

Also

(I know this is far fetched as hell but) the armor pieces the speaker has
(Hunter dead zone cloak) (titan deep stone crypt) and (warlock genysm)
Was this coincidence?

[dim minnow]

I don't follow

are you referring to the class items themselves?

[empty fern]

Hunters dead zone cloak might be reference to EDZ, (ik it’s fetched but hear me out)

And titan mark having the same name as the Clovis bray place

[dim minnow]

Dead Zone doesn't seem to list the EDZ specifcally

[empty fern]

Damn

[dim minnow]

just Dead Zones in aprticular

though the fact that Dead Zone Revolution uses a Deer...

[empty fern]

That too

[dim minnow]

hmmm

maybe it's related to the ruins of the North American Empire instead

I wish we got more on that other than a few cities like Chicago and Manhatten

[dim minnow]

for context, during the Golden Age, North America consolidated into an "Empire"

[empty fern]

Neat

During collapse or during golden age

[dim minnow]

which makes me think that the US peacefully annexed Canada and Mexico

or something of the sort

[dim minnow]

Golden Age as stated above

[empty fern]

Oh oops

[dim minnow]

"Some American you are," Mia teases him. David comes from the North American Empire, Earth's biggest voluntary retro-nationalist republic, full of people who love military pageantry and muscular aerospace displays.

[empty fern]

Sounds pretty American I guess

[dim minnow]

there is an Appalachian Dead Zone which was referenced in D1

[empty fern]

The mountains?

[dim minnow]

probaably

and as far as I know, several unnamed ones

are deer associated with the Appalachians?

[empty fern]

Where do you think warlords ruin takes place? (Since it’s in the edz map)

[empty fern]

I think goats usually?

Moths?

[dim minnow]

just Rice lurking

[empty fern]

Fair enough

Also

Back to the titan DSC mark, is that image on it supposed to be one of the ruins on Europa?

[dim minnow]

ok, the DSC mark is actually relevant to something

so have you ever done an Exo Simulation?

if you look out in the distance, you can see a dark tower

[empty fern]

I’ll have to look again

[dim minnow]

this relates to a common dream between many exos

[empty fern]

Think the dream is suppose to be a “cloud” of sorts?

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-legends?highlight=deep+stone+crypt

[empty fern]

Eerie

[dim minnow]

you know what, I'll take a look at all the Speaker class items and compile a summary of what I can gather on them for you

[empty fern]

That was fast

[dim minnow]

Titan Marks:

Deep Stone Crypt: Refer to the lore entry I posted above

Freeholder's Memory: Refers to the Martian city of Freehold which we explore the ruins of in D1 Mars Patrol

Honor of Cormorant: The Cormorant Seal is an honor given to the most esteemed Guardians of the Praxic Order, a group of almost all Warlocks who are firecely aligned to the Traveler

Moctezuma-Polyphonic: Represents the equality of everyone who lives under the Traveler.

Season of Ages XII: Represents the 12th era of Titan orders. Titans are known for gathering into orders like the Sunbreakers. This mark implies that Titan orders have a very rich history over the centuries they existed.

Spirit of Saturn: Refers to Cassini, a ruined fleet of ships that lie in Saturn's rings. Not much is known about this fleet other than that it had a captain named Drystan Cor and that the fleet was likely wiped out by the Hive during the Collapse. We also have some concept art related to it back in Destiny's earlier days indicating that Bungie had plans for it. Mara Sov does reference this fleet when telling the Emissary of the Nine to move an "asset" beyond its resting place.

Thalor's Golden Maul: A mark belonging to Thalor, a champion of the Crucible. He was friends with another legendary titan known as Rezyl Azzir. Eventually, Rezyl would be corrupted and would take up the identity of Dredgen Yor and go on a rampage in the Crucible killing many Guardians with the Thorn. Thalor attempted to stop him, but would end up as one of his many victims.

Year 1993: A pattern related to the restoration of famous ancient Golden Age Tomes. Hmmm, not sure what to make of this one. Is it implying that the Golden Age happened as early as the 90s?

here are the Titan marks

[empty fern]

Oh he’s returned

[dim minnow]

now I will start on the Hunter marks

give me a minute

[empty fern]

Kek

[ember storm]

pathways into darkness was 93

if it matters

might not I’m not familiar with it

[dim minnow]

Hunter Cloaks:

Cloud Walker Tribute: Refers to the "pioneers of the first Exodus" who were probably the first group of Human colonists to settle beyond Earth.

Cosmic Joke: Cloak scavenged many times from the remains of its previous owners. The deer design on the cloak also appears on the "Stag's Spirit" emblem for some reason.

Cult/Trinary Star: Refers to the Trinary Star who were a cult that viewed the Traveler's Light as a curse.

Dead Zone Revolution: We already discussed this

Legend of the Six Coyotes: Refers to the legendary group of Hunters who first scouted beyond the Cosmodrome wall. This group consisted of Himura Shinobu, Nadiya, Conar, Micah-10, Lee-4, and Therin Vai.

Quantum-Phoenix Blue: The pattern on the cloak originated from waveform flux (whatever that means) in the probability kilns (I think these are used to generate matter perhaps out of Glimmer) from the Last City.

Strength of the Pack: Worn by Ana Bray during Twilight Gap where she faked her death.

Venom of Ikaheka: States that the snake is a symbol used to represent true hunters (like how Eagles represent Warlocks and Lions represent Titans I suppose)

@empty fern

ok here's the cloaks

now the Warlock Bonds

[raven glen]

So question are the original guardians dead? Like d1 characters or are we considered the same d1 character who slained all d1 bosses? Probably dumb question cus some people say the titan that died from witness was the d1 main character who slained crota oryx omignil and so on

[ember storm]

no

the wearing of D1 armor on those characters was just a reference

your character is THE D1 guardian

also pretty sure only one of the guardians in the LF opening actually died since his ghost was also killed

[trim grotto]

Reed-7, yes.

Aisha and Shayura's Ghosts survived.

[empty fern]

[dim minnow]

Warlock Bonds:

Binary Lazarus: Precipice of Flame is something relevant to Solar Light I think and the bond was encrypted by some group known as the First Children who were likely exiled. Honestly, this has little info on it, my guess is it has some relation to Osiris' cult.

Harlequin Pendulum: Sought after by Gensym Scribes who I already explained above.

Seal of the Twin Eagle: Most likely refers to the Cormorant Seal which was already explained previously.

Spirit of the Vulture: I don't think there's much to this one.

The FIve Lives of Albios: Albios was a warlock to had an encounter with an Ahamkara in a swamp on Venus. During this encounter, he was wiped from existence. I think one of the current season's lore books touches on him, but I can't check right now.

Ulan-Tan's Burial Ring: Ulan-Tan was legendary for his heretical idea that Light and Dark are both necessary to exist.

Union of the Consensus: Refers to an event known as the great Consensus. Maybe it relates to the Consensus who are the main governing body of the Last City.

White Polygon Construct: Nothing much on this one either, we just know that the bond contains information on something "vast"

@empty fern ok that's the last set of them

[empty fern]

You think the vulture one is just another representation of the warlock as a bird animal?

[dim minnow]

eh

Vultures should be more relevant towards Hunters

[empty fern]

Damn

Hmmm

(You can do this tomorrow when I wake up) you think there’s any lore on the strike specific armor/weapons?

[dim minnow]

as in the D1 ones?

any lore they got has to be related to the strike they're found in

[empty fern]

True

Was the echos strike anything in lore or was it just a ps exclusive strike

[dim minnow]

echos?

was that the one with the harpy boss?

[empty fern]

Yea, the first model of the gos harpy

[ember storm]

it was a shitty strike

[empty fern]

Also (based on in game lines) it was repairing some stuff

[ember storm]

there’s your lore

[empty fern]

Waltz

Be quiet

[ember storm]

make me

[dim minnow]

well I know the plot of the strike was that we had to destroy that mind in order to prevent the Vex from bringing back Sekrion, the Vex mind in charge of transforming Venus to a machine world

[empty fern]

I will, when I figure out how

[ember storm]

or else I’ll purposefully mistake you for nexius

then you’ll be sorry

[dim minnow]

and then the entire strike turned out pointless because that bastard came back anyways

[empty fern]

I’m already sorry enough as it is reading whatever you or eris send

[empty fern]

F

What was sekirons model again?

Hydra or Minotaur

[empty fern]

Oh that’s nexus

Why did it get vault of glass upgrades in the second version of the strike?

[dim minnow]

probably to stop us from killing it again

[empty fern]

I see

[worldly river]

Saw someone point out that I don't think they ever really explained why Savathun had one of Riven's eggs at the end of Season of the Witch

If I had to guess, might've been a contingency, as a lead to get us to Riven had we not pieced together the 15th Wish

That or she, like Mara, kept an egg at hand as a potential tool but just never ended up needing to use it

[dim minnow]

could have been obtained when Savathun first met Riven

[chrome fog]

It’s space magic. Like. Conjuring fire without the proper cause to it such as a lit match and a fuel source.

[chrome fog]

That’s not all that entails but that’s one use that’s been demonstrated by the Guardians, yes. But generally Paracausality is what its name is: parallel causality. A way to make reality more the way you want it through one means or another.

[fresh zephyr]

correlation between effects with no plausible causal explanation using our current closed monist physics

hence; self resurrection instead of staying dead like amanda

being able to just rematerialize yourself, according to law of conservation of energy, is called "straight up bullshit"

warlocks manifesting miniature sized suns on the palm of their hand out of thin air

and worse, without even needing to use stellar nucleosynthesis

wheres the energy coming from, the light, the paracasual light

parabullshitality

cool as hell though

[chrome fog]

Again parallel causality

It's in the name

[trim grotto]

You're saying the same thing

[exotic cloak]

Who is the third guy in the last cutscene of the third mission of lightfall?

I know one is Caitl and the other one the main villain from Red War

[jagged badge]

Calus?

[exotic cloak]

Let me find the frame in refering

[jagged badge]

Oh this?

[exotic cloak]

Yeah that one

Who is the one with the shield?

[chrome fog]

Umun'arath uhh don't recall what her position was but she was also fairly high ranking

[jagged badge]

Evocate-General Umun’arath

[rich veldt]

aint she the one thatwas tricked into doing the hive summoning stuff on torobotal?

[chrome fog]

Yes, and her name being similar to Xivu Arath is not coincidental either

Destinypedia says the Cabal were aware of Hive mythology from secondhand knowledge but does not cite where that is pulled from, but presumably from later entries closer to the fall of Torobatl this was due to the machinations of Savathun

This entry best supports this
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/chapter-5-new-gods

Other than that, she was close with Caital as she used to train her

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/chapter-2-star-pilot

[exotic cloak]

Thank you all

[jagged badge]

Well

[exotic cloak]

[jagged badge]

From a story perspective, not a coincidence

Apparently from a writing perspective…absolutely a coincidence by Seth

At least, I recall hearing this I’m sure of it

[chrome fog]

Thank you Seth

And thank you Sav for letting us use you as a hand wavy excuse

[trim grotto]

Seth, paraphrased, just liked the sound aiat - which is why Caiatl's name was a coincidence

[glass valley]

ok so i need help. i might just be making this up in my head, but i could've sworn that we had a lore entry about there being another "Voice in the Darkness" after the Witness entered the Traveler. Is there or is there not a lore entry about that?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/meaning

I imagine you're referring to this entry from Inspiral

[glass valley]

i dont think so. again i might be just making this up.

I remember the lore tab explictly calling out the fact that there is a Voice despite the Witness being in the Pale Heart. The voice being different.

I could just be imagining things or mixing up some r/destinylore posts together with actual lore.

doing some thinking, it might just be a mix of the fact that the Veil has a "voice" not linked to the Witness with some r/destinylore posts about the Winnower and headcanon

[trim grotto]

r/destinylore did go a bit wild with the Veil's voice

[shadow crypt]

could someone explain what the veil even is

[glass valley]

looking at it further and ignoring the fact that i am a dbz fan and unable to read. it might just be that, though things like Meaning doesnt help with its claim of 2 voices in the Darkness communicating

[glass valley]

byf has a couple of videos on. i'd say at its most basic, the Veil is Darkness version of the Traveler while also being a sort of central nexus for all of consciousness.

(theres also the fact that quantum physics is HEAVILY involved with the Veil)

[glass valley]

also probably doesn't help that the language and statements used when "The Winnower" and the Witness are talking are pretty different. something something "my man Oryx"

[trim grotto]

Pretty easily consolidated from the right view point

For example

What do you know of the prophesy of the Kell of Kells

[glass valley]

honestly not much. been a hot minute. like i know that there is one kell who will rise to unite all of the houses under one banner. iirc it would be during a time of great strife but idrk

Skolas tried to be that iirc. We've had theories of it being Variks then it being either Eramis or Misraaks

[trim grotto]

That's the general gist of it. But consider how much division and war it has actually caused in reality. Consider that the Unveiling texts, even "my man Oryx", may use different language to convince you and manipulate you - it even says as much in Unveiling.

And with that frame of mind

Read this

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/star-eater-scales

[glass valley]

just did

what specificially did you want me to see? the part where they talk about it potentially being an idea planted by someone else?

[trim grotto]

Raksil was never there. And the implication is that the Kell of Kells prophesy was planted by the Witness... likely as an attempt to either whittle them down to a stronger shape, or to find a new Disciple.

We've seen those sorts of ship instrument errors before, you see. Raksil was the result of Darkness, thus, most likely the Witness.

[glass valley]

yeah fair though "Raksil" seems to be against the whittling of Eliksni into a stronger shape/disciple.

plus wasn't Eramis a pseudo-disciple? at least during Seraph (? i forgor season names but the one where Eramis tried shooting the Traveler)

[trim grotto]

True, but a real Disciple would break free from this path, like Rhulk did from the society of Lubrae.

[trim grotto]

That was Seraph, yes. And she... sort of was, yes.

This entry was from about a year prior to that.

[glass valley]

did Rhulk do that? I thought he became a disciple after a) meeting the Witness and b) killing off the rest of his species while partaking in the Sword Logic

[glass valley]

ah

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic wasn't involved, and he met the Witness afterwards.

He was just very, very angry.

[glass valley]

hmm. i couldve sworn he met the Witness in a maybe literal maybe metaphorical pit that he climbed out of to get revenge for betrayal

yeah Rhulk was shoved into "The Abyss" between his clan and the city on Lubrae. He encountered the Witness there and then got powered up and began his literal climb for revenge.

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lamented#book-shattered-suns
He sort of did, but the actual meeting was later.

The Witness granted him strength to "Ruin"

[glass valley]

yeah. still wild how he was considerably stronger than Oryx pretty much because the Witness remade him to be Ruin without needing a workaround like Sword Logic and whatnot.

ik his final stand was him getting serious, but ngl i kinda wish bungie made it so he was more accurate to the lore in terms of power there. like needing less hp to get to the final stand but he becomes A LOT stronger. He still dies cuz it was way too late but it would be nice to see his power a lot better in game rather than hiding in lore @ OSIRIS

[desert tree]

question: wtf is a Cabal "Projection Rifle"?

[trim grotto]

Some of the old weapons have D1 era Grimoire cards, this included
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/projection-rifle

No need to click the link, the preview text is the entire entry

[desert tree]

so
its a slug rifle
just
pure energy instead of an explosive red bull can?

[trim grotto]

I see nothing suggesting it's pure energy, but it does seem fairly similar to Slug Rifles. Which, for comparisons sake...
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/slug-rifle

ah the copy paste didn't work properly one sec

There we go
Sometimes it doesn't acknowledge I copied something

[chrome fog]

You might be thinking of the earliest Veil Containment Logs

Maya herself hears Salvation or smth from the Veil and then starts to do things her significant other Chioma Esi never would’ve thought she’d consider

The Veil Containment Logs then go on to describe logistical issues and struggles for Neomuna’s early government while also somewhat highlighting Maya’s descent into a obsession parallel to Clovis’ which lead him towards developing Exos, except this time it lead her to creating a similar entity to the Witness in the form of Lakshmi-2, with her being a consolidation of all the dead exominds that were near the Veil when they essentially blue screened as well as a mindscan of Maya herself (through non lethal means, Clovis just believed the mindscan process that evaporates your entire being kept a greater fidelity of the mindscan)

[chrome fog]

I know for sure it’s the earliest Veil Containment Logs is because there’s been many a discussion here and other lore places about why Maya would be hearing a voice and then call it Salvation, all the while mimicking processes that the Witness civilization performed

[idle raptor]

what is morgeth?

a spirekeeper, but why an ogre? and why taken...?

[trim grotto]

Riven was Taken. She was within the spire. She needed a guard.

[idle raptor]

so he was freshly made?

[trim grotto]

There isn't any lore for Morgeth other than its name and context clues

[empty fern]

Ogre moment

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-lightfall-the-witness-darkness-black-fleet-gif-27606723

Angy witness

[sick yew]

They zoomin

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-witness-me-when-on-my-way-gif-27570628

[blazing wasp]

it has places to go, it gotta follow its rainbow

[jagged badge]

Rhulk

Not the Witness

[chrome fog]

But also the Witness

Because of Rhulk

Later on

[jagged badge]

But the Witness ain’t a ‘he’ so is not who Mael was referring to

Is my point lmao

[blazing wasp]

i wonder if the witness being a "it" is because the witness is technically the name of the entire species?

or, rather, the entire species

[empty fern]

It’s pronouns are wit/ness

We just shorten wit to it for funny

[idle raptor]

yes

it's a multitude of beings into a singular life form

and technically no longer alive

so the use of pronouns is redundant, since it's more of a manifestation

[empty fern]

Wouldn’t that also mean we could refer to it however we want?

[idle raptor]

pretty much

[empty fern]

Nice

[clever nacelle]

why cant osiris use his light?

[ember storm]

ghost dead

no connection to the traveler, no light

[empty fern]

I think the vanguard has sagiras shell as well (after wq ghost mission)

[sick yew]

Just tape her back together ez

I wonder if shell show up in Final Shape too

Similar to Cayde

[empty fern]

Interesting point

(But if that happens then maybe even rasputin )

[clever nacelle]

how?

[empty fern]

Xivu

During hunt I think?

[ember storm]

there was sorta a whole arc about Xivu Arath’s corruption infecting the system and Osiris going to the moon to slay the rest of Crota’s lineage

[blazing wasp]

Her high celebrant broke his ghost as she sacrificed herself for him

I think

[empty fern]

(Also yes he can use strand because it’s not part of the light)

[ember storm]

to save Osiris from falling completely under Xivu’s control Sagira (his ghost) sacrificed herself

[clever nacelle]

man thats sad

[ember storm]

luckily he was half unconscious afterward for about a year and a half

watching a hive god puppet his body and manipulate his closest friends

[jagged badge]

Poor guy

That lore tab where’s trapped in his own mind, screaming at the people he loves to recognise there’s something wrong with ‘him’

[empty fern]

But then

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

We got this

Worth it?

[ember storm]

on the bright side he got a very funky mascara job during it

[empty fern]

He did?

[ember storm]

there was a lore tab describing Savathun’s hive gunk bleeding through his face

[empty fern]

Ew

https://tenor.com/view/mzfitt-eris-morn-eris-destiny-destiny2-gif-25786201

Like eris hive gunk?

[ember storm]

https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/60cb48e05e688b6ce459e079/Destiny-2/960x0.jpg?height=425&width=711&fit=bounds

[empty fern]

Neat

[chrome fog]

Savathun was puking the stuff out as she kept successfully blending in as Osiris

A City citizen almost saw her puking out Hive gunk but she was able to trick him into thinking all was ok. Her worm then got all antsy because it was getting greedy from how much imbaru tithe it was receiving

Wait that was the excerpt waltz posted I’m slow

[sick yew]

[empty fern]

For gameplay purposes only

(Including all the past expansions in. The final saga expansion)

[sick yew]

I just want to hear his voice again

But also glowy stick to defeat the Witness with

It's slain a worm God so who knows

[jagged badge]

I mean

There’s probably a considerable gulf between the weakest Worm God who wanted to die to us and the one who created all the Worm Gods

[empty fern]

Xol?

[jagged badge]

Yes

[empty fern]

Cool

We had 3 original worms right? There were princes named after them in d1, eir and some other 2

[chrome fog]

Xita is the Motherworm which we see in Vow

Which is 3

But it feels like there were more

[empty fern]

Yea

Eir
Ur
And god I can’t remember the third one

[ember storm]

Yul

also Akka

[empty fern]

Ah ye

[rotund adder]

There's Xita, the Motherworm, then Xol, Akka, Eir, Ur and Yul. As far as we know there are only 3 left

[worldly river]

Actually that reminds me of something
Ahsa's named siblings are Sel, Ora, and Leis, and all 4 are female, while the 5 Worm Gods from D1 are all male, while Xita is female
Makes me wonder if perhaps Xita is or was also Ahsa's sibling, like Ahsa and her sisters were a generation up from the Worm Gods
Or maybe if, like Oryx, some or all of the ones that became the Worm Gods transitioned their physical sex

Interestingly if the former was true, it would create a parallel in 5 of the older generation and 5 of the newer one

[empty fern]

Neat

[rocky python]

Did savathun really plan everything

or was it kinda like chance for her wish

i thought her wish was like never letting food

[jagged badge]

Hm?

[rocky python]

like itis was never ending food

her wish

the dreaming city cycle

[fast tapir]

what?

[rocky python]

Savathun made a wish yes?

the dreaming city cycle thing yes

but that wasnt her real wish yes

[jagged badge]

Oh that?

[rocky python]

so was that always her intention some way to follow darkness guy

[jagged badge]

Well, kinda

It wasn’t precisely her wish

[rocky python]

so she basically got two wishes

[jagged badge]

I’m not all that sure about that. It seems she planned for that possibility. But her main plan in Witch Queen was to stop the Witness going in to the Pale Heart at all

[rocky python]

Pale heart is travveler yes?

[jagged badge]

It’s a realm within the Traveler

Accessible only by the portal that the connection to the Veil allowed the Witness to forge

[rocky python]

What is purpose of traveler and veil

to commune?

[jagged badge]

It’s theorised they could have been one entity once but split

The Traveler’s purpose/goal is to bless and uplift people

[rocky python]

so light and dark were once one

does viel have will like traveler

[jagged badge]

Potentially

I don’t recall Osiris having much faith in that theory, but he does bring it up

[jagged badge]

It seems to have communicated to and manipulated Maya Sundaresh

[rocky python]

Gay scientist I remember her

she made laksmhi yes

[jagged badge]

Yeah

[rocky python]

viel told her to make laksmhi?

or was it she did

did viel create vex?

why do they want viel

[jagged badge]

Not really

[jagged badge]

We don’t know the origin of the Vex

Unless we take Unveiling as the truth

[rocky python]

were they not created during garden game

[jagged badge]

So says Unveiling

We don’t know how truthful that is now

[rocky python]

why?

[jagged badge]

Because we got Unveiling from the Witness

Yet it tells an allegorical story of a Gardener and a Winnower

But we know from Season of the Deep that the Witness’ species first encountered and named the Gardener on their homeworld

So Unveiling is kinda questionable

[rocky python]

it also called viel winnower

maybe it got story from viel

as it also talked to sunderesh

[trim grotto]

It said one word: Salvation.

As for Unveiling, we cannot take it at face value. Consider it a metaphor for the Darkness and Light.

[rocky python]

Not gonna lie bungie making the witness like mortal felt stupid

[trim grotto]

Unveiling was told to us by the Witness, presenting itself as a Winnower - and in its mind, it is. But as Unveiling was a tale told from this perspective, it flies against the idea that the Winnower is itself a being, as opposed to a concept, a duty to be fulfilled.

[trim grotto]

It's hardly mortal. A grotesque amalgamation of an entire species that has existed for billions of years, immortal, powerful, and dangerous.

[rocky python]

I feel like they could have made it like it’s actual opposite

[jagged badge]

Not necessarily

[shadow crypt]

What is the witness called?

Like it’s species

[jagged badge]

We don’t know

[shadow crypt]

o

[rocky python]

Instead of making the veil

[jagged badge]

The only name/epithet given is “the Witness’ first victims”

[shadow crypt]

Do you think we will learn more stuff about it and its origins in tfs?

[jagged badge]

Probably

[trim grotto]

You're an epithet

[jagged badge]

Hell, I think the CE lore book is meant to have stuff from the Witness’ species iirc

Translated to us somehow by Eido??

[shadow crypt]

What does CE mean?

[jagged badge]

Collector’s Edition

[rocky python]

Would have been cool if it’s like the actual opposite of the traveller

[trim grotto]

There's more to learn of the Veil, too.

[rocky python]

The idea of the veil felt rushed ngl

[shadow crypt]

how long have we known of the existence of the veil?

[jagged badge]

Since Season of the Seraph

[shadow crypt]

o

well that makes sense

savathun hid it from the witness right

[rocky python]

Yea

[jagged badge]

Yes

She killed Nezarec, stole the Veil and hid it on Neptune

[rocky python]

She killed neztac then took the veil

[shadow crypt]

Ah ok

Also this is kinda off topic

How tall is our guardian?

hive gods are massive compared to us

[jagged badge]

We’re not really given an exact height lmao

I’d probably assume just a neutral kinda 6’0 maybe?

[shadow crypt]

Yeah probably

[glass valley]

Didnt someone do the math and it came out to be like 5’8 to 5’10?

[jagged badge]

[outer dragon]

We have no exact information on VIP#2014
They are a blank slate to project your own story on

[slim elk]

The only concrete fact about them is that they dont like to talk

[outer dragon]

And even then that is more of a joke than actual fact

[chrome fog]

I think it fits, it’s a gross perversion of a “deity” borne out of a race’s entitlement to a set definition to the meaning of life. It presents itself as Salvation, Clarity, the one you should root for when it’s an unsettling, selfish, stupidly nihilistic bag of corpses, as opposed to the silent yet consistently hopeful Traveler

[chrome fog]

She was immediately suspicious of the Witness as she - the Hive God of Cunning - could tell this shit was a scheme because she herself would make it a scheme; also she’s only out for herself, though clearly from how we enrage her in the Witch Queen final campaign battle she still has some capacity to be more

[empty fern]

(This probably isn’t related at all but) the guardians height (compared to the cosmodrome skeletons in array) are smaller than the skeleton itself (I compared in both games)

[worldly river]

I agree though I don't think her getting mad proves it
Her getting mad, to me, is her losing her cool because for once in her life she realizes someone beat her at her own game, and at such a fundamental level of her entire life and identity

That said there's a few times now that lore books imply she sees something in humanity, though it's still unclear what

Something that I think she believes the Hive, even broken from the chains if the Worms, lack

People's willingness to outstretch their hand to her when she was Osiris in Beneath the Endless Night, and Immaru specifically saying verbatim that she saw something in us in Rites of Passage (which I suspect he completely misunderstands as potential for Humans to become more like the Hive)

[chrome fog]

Didn’t really have time to word it properly cause was eepy, but yeah there’s more behind just her being angry; in the context that she and her sisters were pressured into taking the deal with the Worm Gods during a time of duress - they were being overthrown by the Helium Drinkers as well as the looming threat of the potential God Wave - and later on doubling down on the Sword Logic after asking Oryx “is there another way?”, the revelation that it was for literally nothing, that they were played from the start and made to go on this path towards the genocidal murderball that is the modern Hive would reasonably make someone angry, even if proto-hive culture prior to the worm gods’ deal were not too different.

Adding to that the fact their culture doesn’t really have a way to articulate or express the desire to want to just be with your loved ones - the closest being personally being the one to kill your family members, holding that honor as opposed to any other - which I think both Savathun and Xivu Arath have felt (Savathun more-so in her time mimicking Osiris, the Hawkmoon lore tab really illustrates the point I'm trying to make), and you see that the Hive are capable of more than their devotion to the Sword Logic

[worldly river]

Oh yeah the Hawkmoon tab one that was the other I couldn't think of

[clever nacelle]

who is xivu arath?