📚lore-discussion

[empty fern]

I did not thankfully

[dim minnow]

damn

ah well, your fault for asking on lore chat where I always lurk

[safe galleon]

so why does it seem to be a 'requirement' for ahamkara to be manipulative, or at least something that some of them, at least riven anyway, seem to view as an obligation?

[empty fern]

True

But also go to sleep

[dim minnow]

they feed on the space between what is desired and what is granted

so the more of what they grant is bad, then the more they feed

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[dim minnow]

but if an Ahamkara makes their own wish, there is no difference and thus, their existence ends

this is seen with Taranis

[safe galleon]

if taranis (seemingly) refused to engage in the process of feeding, and was altruistic with his power, then how did he not like

starve??? is the feeding bit more metaphorical?

[empty fern]

He ate himself no?

[safe galleon]

im not sure if they say outright

[dim minnow]

Riven stated that Taranis must have paid the price in some way, but she never specified how

maybe the burdens of the wish fall to him

[smoky rose]

It’s just the difference

So it doesn’t NEED to be bad

[dim minnow]

the difference has to be between what is DESIRED and what is granted though

[chrome fog]

No it’s very much literal, inversely we see this with the worms in the way their hosts make what is and what is desired the same (Oryx proving himself to be the explorer, Savathun proving to be cunning, Xivu proving she cultivates all war, and most Hive in killing others to prove they deserve exist more than the one they had killed) and that act feeds the worm

[safe galleon]

i mean i guess a workaround would be to just grant the wish but throw in something completely useless that wont kill or harm you, but you dont really Want

granting a wish and throwing in 300 copies of ET for the atari 2600

[dim minnow]

doesn't have anything to do with the desire though

so it would be rather irrelevant

the downsides likely have to be relevant to what is desired

[chrome fog]

But then there would be no difference, just an additional thing present. Your wish will have been granted and no longer desire it as it is already reality. That’s why they always screw with the wish so that it’s not entirely granted or granted in a way that is not desired

[safe galleon]

maybe taranis was just built different then

[chrome fog]

That’s why he’s amazing for an Ahamkara, as he’s the only case we’ve seen of Ahamkara being solely benevolent

[dim minnow]

and I really didn't want to feel bad for an ahamkara this season

but Bungie pulled it off

we only knew about Taranis for a few days now and I already feel for him

for once we had an Ahamkara that isn't a rat bastard

even Hefnd, who was a real one, still required a burden to some extent

[chrome fog]

Also, total vindication for calling the story more insight into Ahamkaras’ view on granting wishes

[grizzled zinc]

So was the great hunt the right thing to do, or no?

[trim grotto]

It's not exactly black and white, but it wasn't an unfounded action. Ahamkara are very dangerous, and their bait is desire. They were reshaping Venus, causing a phenomenon so mindbending it caused people to shoot themselves.

Azirim, for example, slaughtered an entire party of Awoken who welcomed him to their group, simply because he could.

[grizzled zinc]

Didn’t they supposedly create entire alternative universes in which the darkness didn’t exist?

[trim grotto]

Uuuhhh

No

[grizzled zinc]

i see

[trim grotto]

Like the Pied Piper, Azirim led the dancing, happy people in a procession straight off a cliff to their deaths

[trim grotto]

There is a lore entry where two Guardians wonder why nobody has ever wished for our extinction, and hypothesise that they may have created a new timeline for this theoretical wish as it would be too far removed to modify this one

But that's just a theory, and also isn't what you said

So

[grizzled zinc]

Is what i meant lol

Mb

[slim elk]

The Great Hunt has bit of complicated motives to it.
It had genuine basis of what the Ahamkara were capable of... but it still doesn't distract it was a targeted extinction of all the wish dragons that were one of the few races in Sol not trying to genocide humanity

Throw in Mara supporting it so that she would have exclusive access to an Ahamkara (Riven) despite knowing the dangers better then anyone..

[ember storm]

Saladin slew a dragon so it’s all worth it

[serene swift]

Raid completions are canonically the worlds first team, is everything else canonically your guardian or the first people who clear it?

[slim elk]

Always you

Thus Riven referring to Player guardian as "o murderer mine"

[versed abyss]

Could the guardians wish for all ahamkaras to die instead of the great hunt?

[slim elk]

Forgetting the very reason why the Ahamkara were targeted in the first place

[versed abyss]

War to end all wars situation

[slim elk]

You dont get exactly what you want from wishing

Oh yeah. The Ahamkara might be dead...
But you didn't say anything how long they would be or if they hijacked something else

[versed abyss]

Could an ahamkara still twist your words if you made a hyper specific 10000 word essay wish?

[slim elk]

Yes

We have that literally happen ingame

The wish wall heh

Ergo Drifter and Failsafe being in your head on the Last Wish raid if you put in said wishes

[safe galleon]

you CAN get around them that way, but i imagine it's not a very easy undertaking against a being that literally relies on twisting peoples' words for survival

[slim elk]

Also
You don't need to say a wish aloud in order for Ahamkara to grant it.
Even thinking of one would be enough

[versed abyss]

Unrelated question but even if it’s forbidden for an ahamkara to grant their own wishes but they still can why didn’t one ahamkara just sacrifice it’s life to wish all guardians to die or the great hunt to end or smth

[slim elk]

You act like that didnt happen

Ask Eris how she lost her eyes

[versed abyss]

Uhhh

How did she lose her eyes?

[slim elk]

More directly. Ahamkara bones and such still have their powers

Eris "wished" upon a bone to find a way out of the Hellmouth

It was granted.. but she lost her eyes to "see" the way

[versed abyss]

What is the limited of the wishes tho

Like could Eria of wished to be teleported to the tower

[ember storm]

it’s not about the limit it’s about how much the ahamkara can fuck it up

which is exactly why you don’t want to make wishes like that

she was desperate and made the simplest one she could

if you just do “take me to the tower” you don’t know how long it’ll take so it could just be your bleached skeleton

or a pile of melted flesh

[slim elk]

Yeah. The "difference" is what the Ahamkara feed on.
The greater the disparity, the greater the sustenance

(Goes a long way to demonstrate Maras ego thinking she could handle such a creature without it ever backfiring)

[safe galleon]

if they know they're not gonna get anything out of a wish, like for example you drafted up a 'perfect' wish tailored to be tamper-proof, can the ahamkara just refuse to grant it

[slim elk]

Yes
Literally this season lol

[safe galleon]

i must have forgotten

[slim elk]

All this busy work of the eggs to make Riven actually grant it

[ember storm]

yeah since she’s fucking dead there’s nothing to feed on

so instead she wants a more material payment

[safe galleon]

i havent been tuned in very well to lore this season 💀

[ember storm]

that being the reclamation and protection of her eggs

[jagged badge]

The whole gimmick of this season is Riven wants her clutch safe before she grants our wish

[ember storm]

btw did we ever give her the one from Savathun’s spire

or do we get to omelette that one

[slim elk]

And it still hasn't addressed the Elephant in the room of how Rivens gonna twist the wish when she grants it

[safe galleon]

like i said, i've kinda just been going thru the motions and not reading the lore or watching the cutscenes the past few weeks

[ember storm]

I mean she’s probably not going to

considering this week and yknow it’s literally our only way to get to FS

[safe galleon]

even if she did want to, don't the characters have like, plenty of time to rules-lawyer up an unfuckable wish

[slim elk]

Nah. She is
She's still throwing a lot of crap at us with all the obstacles in her lair despite us getting her eggs

[ember storm]

we should’ve just called saul

[ember storm]

you’re saying that as if she has the power to change it

[slim elk]

Crow did call her out on the very issue this week so... shrug

[ember storm]

I thought it was established since she’s dead it’s not a thing she’s able to do

[ember storm]

as a “if you didn’t set the traps in the first place we wouldn’t have been late” way

[safe galleon]

you telling me that not a single character in this seasonal story is in the background like 'yeah we should probably start drafting something up for this exact scenario that always happens with ahamkara so she doesn't screw us out of the wish'

[ember storm]

the wish is already made

she just hasn’t granted it yet

there’s nothing to change

it’s concise and simple

“A way to follow the Witness”

what can be twisted from that?

[slim elk]

Even better.
It's not a wish we made
It's one we got from Savathun

[ember storm]

it was literally made by Savathun

[safe galleon]

i really need to rewatch the seasonal cutscenes

[slim elk]

Easy. You didn't say who would have the means to follow

[ember storm]

the only obstacle is the wormhole

[slim elk]

throws open the door to everyone including the vex

[ember storm]

if a way is opened then everyone can get it

[ember storm]

so what

the way being open wouldn’t be exclusive to us regardless

there’s going to be taken in there

we already know that

it was in the trailer

[slim elk]

There's also potential price to pay for getting that way.
See Eris again losing her eyes

[safe galleon]

oh no there's bad guys in the bad guy portal

[ember storm]

the price to pay is a conscious choice by the ahamkara every time

I ask you, why would riven do this?

what does she have to gain from it at all?

there’s no desire to feed from

we’ve protected all her eggs at that point

[slim elk]

To get back at Mara out of spite

[ember storm]

we also reunited her with her mate and became his wish keeper

[slim elk]

She's still so petty she trolled Mara with that Shaxx call

[ember storm]

which was before the massive narrative reveal this week, yes

[safe galleon]

doesn't riven have a material motivation to help us wirh this specific thing

[slim elk]

Also. From out of verse perspective

[safe galleon]

this entire season is her wanting to preserve her species or whatever, isnt it

they won't do that

[ember storm]

from out of verse perspective we know it’s going to turn out ok

[safe galleon]

if they're all dead

[slim elk]

There's gonna be justification for why we don't "immediately" go after the Witness when the seasonal story is over

[safe galleon]

(because the witness is gonna do the funny)

[ember storm]

Ikora and Zavala are both going to be there in FS, and we are too obviously

[ember storm]

the seasonal story will be over when the dlc releases

[slim elk]

We are gonna have several months of dead air before that so....

[ember storm]

you’re mistaking the weekly story with the actual conclusion of the season

those are always at the end

[safe galleon]

like i said, why would riven go thru the trouble of ensuring her species lives on only to screw us over in trying to stop the thing currently trying to kill everything

[slim elk]

That's actually the point I'm making though lol
What's gonna be the delay for that in verse?
We don't get the last egg till very end of the season?

Or something screwy going on with the wish?

[ember storm]

remember what happened in lost?

it did indeed take literal months for the techeuns to pull their shit together for the Savathun exorcism

and the techeuns are the only thing giving riven form and letting her do anything right now

it’s dependent on them

[versed abyss]

Would reverse psychology work on an ahamkara?

[slim elk]

Again:
Can read your thoughts for the true "wish" you want

And twists that

[ember storm]

with the repeated reference of ley lines it’s going to be a “we have to wait until the stars align” shit

[versed abyss]

Alr so you cannot outsmart an ahamkara

[chrome fog]

If you wished that, they’d make it so the war never ends, so it is the last war ever since there’s technically be no wars afterwards.

[chrome fog]

We already have, Savathun’s code on the Wish Wall. We just have to do more hard work because we did personally kill Riven and also all parties involved have learned Riven still has some eggs that aren’t Taken and sterile.

[chrome fog]

Why not just fucking grant the wish and then fuck off with the eggs so she never has to deal with humanity ever again? Very clearly Riven doesn’t want to stay around long (as is unfortunate it is that the techeuns will have to take multiple months) so she’ll probably just let the wish be fulfilled and be forever done

[ember storm]

people seem to keep forgetting she’s not alive

when she grants the wish she’s just going to be gone

why would she fuck us over

that would lead us to just killing her eggs

yes that’s what we’re talking about

there’s no reason for riven to screw over the wish

we’re doing something for her and she’s doing something for us

if she screws us over, we’ll just get rid of the eggs

let them live

that’s the agreement

[devout vine]

We let them live and allow the ahamkara to multiply as agreed

If we get betrayed....
I've got the grill ready

What you want? Scrambled? Boiled?

[ember storm]

omelette better

[low gyro]

Ahamkara egg omelette. Hmm. Sounds like super ostrich egg

[sleek matrix]

Because they gotta have a season

[chrome fog]

No duh, the reason is us getting her eggs for her, I’m talking about after the fact

And also, we seem to be glancing over the fact that the Ahamkara do not necessarily need a physical form to continue “living” so to speak; we already have information about the Ahamkara bones granting wishes and what not, hell Hefned was a pile of bones when the warlord met him.

Death for an Ahamkara is very weird to define, but also yes Riven will probably fuck off into being dead again once she’s ensured the security of her eggs

[near ether]

Damn dragon lore go hard

also depressing as shit

[ember storm]

I love it when destiny is depressing

[near ether]

same though

[outer dragon]

I am curious what we are going to do with the egg in the Witch area

[jagged badge]

Return it to Riven probably

[outer dragon]

Omelets do sound nice

[chrome fog]

Then play another game if you feel that strongly

What layers of irony I don’t know who you are

Not a good one

[trim grotto]

To clarify the situation a little, the community has been bombarded with negativity for some time, and some folk are a bit tired of it, especially when it breaches the more niche channels such as #📚lore-discussion.

That is much appreciated, friend

[shadow warren]

W community

[empty fern]

So terenis had rivens clutch of eggs in the garden lair, but when he wished to protect them, they scattered? Was the vex garden not safe enough?

[jagged badge]

The Black Garden is an extremely perilous place

[devout vine]

The Sol Divisive also aimed to collect and study the eggs itself....
So they weren't safe

[jagged badge]

It is absolutely not safe there

[empty fern]

I see

[lime tiger]

2 questions. is the riven playing as shaxxs voice from (i think) last weeks thing in the helm supposed to show mara is gay/bi
and are there any confirmed straight couples in lore? the main ones i can think of are all gay and such
devrim, saint and osiris, some reef dudes i forget the names of and thats the ones off the top of my head
this is not me saying I care or whatever so dont try to put any bigotry in my asking

[trim grotto]

She is, but no. It's a play on the old misinterpreted joke of "the helmet stayed on"
As for the second question, Zavala and Safiya, his now deceased wife.

[lime tiger]

ah thats right. forgot bout them. thx

[lime tiger]

as for the first part. i knew it was a reference to that. but wasnt sure if this was the first mention of her lovers. i do vaugley remember past lore mentioning a girl

[chrome fog]

Sjur Eido, her Queen’s Wrath before Petra; also most likely her lover, but Sjur Eido also knew Shaxx from a while ago - he was impressed that she could snipe him from a great distance with just a bow, a larger version of the Wishender exotic - and she also knew Misraaks as well

[lime tiger]

thx

[chrome fog]

Said lore entry that people mistakenly assumed to be a one night stand was the two of them mourning the loss of Sjur Eido

[lime tiger]

i feel like i remember that name in the reef dudes who i dont remember. but i really just dont know. def was someone queens guard. paladin

prolly just cause she was queens wrath

[wheat flower]

Can one of the Lore Goblins explain calus 2 me?

[chrome fog]

Petra Venj

[wheat flower]

Drom what i gather he was a good emperor

[trim grotto]

Hah
Hahahah

Haaah

[wheat flower]

But got dethroned for not seeking war

[chrome fog]

Eeeh

Eeeeeeeh

[trim grotto]

Calus had his ups and downs

[lime tiger]

no. dont think so. i wanna say the lore was the 2 people dying

[chrome fog]

What entry is it from?

[lime tiger]

no clue. im not that knowledgeable in d2 lore

[trim grotto]

I'd love to explain Calus in detail but I'm on mobile and only on a short break

[lime tiger]

d1 was where i was caught up on

[wheat flower]

So was calus overall good?

Or bad

You know

Before witness

[chrome fog]

Then where did you hear it from? It could help find what you’re talking about

[lime tiger]

prolly byf. or some youtube on lore. but idk, all i know is it was 2 of the queens people. not sure how. pretty sure paladains. and im pretty sure they were gay and im pretty sure they died

[trim grotto]

Uh, bad? He sought less war, and wanted to free the Psions, but he was also a petty and cruel person, and erased and overwrote much of their old culture.

Then after he became the Herald it got worse

[chrome fog]

Then you’re most likely thinking of the Queen’s Wraths, which as mentioned before were positions held by Sjur Eido and then Petra Venj afterwards

[lime tiger]

no. i am confident they were not

[chrome fog]

If you have the video that would help

[wheat flower]

Wasn't most of their old culture war based though

[lime tiger]

i already explained. I do not remember enough

it doesnt matter that much tho

[trim grotto]

Well, yes, but no. I mean actual cultural rituals, artifacts, so on.
Besides, Cabal like war.

[chrome fog]

With his cultural reforms, Calus forced a total shift of Cabal society from warring constantly to that of the arts and such, which isn’t bad they already had some artisanal feats such as the bells they used in their Rites of Proving or whatever it was, buuuut

Well, let’s just say Caital didn’t want to be wearing an ornamental creature around her neck that’d release its bowels whenever it wanted just because Dad wanted to bring some culture into society

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[chrome fog]

Hmm

Ok got finally

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/new-purpose

Chiddik

Yeah, Calus has been vain for essentially all his service as Emperor of the Cabal and as leader of his own forces, as well as negligent of the true desires of his followers

It’s seen with how he forcibly changed cabal culture from warlike to more artisanal and hedonistic, from how horribly he treated his Shadows - members of individual races that served as his little suicide squad - from how he subjected Ghalran to the Crown of Sorrows, and from his Shadow Legion under the Witness trying to affect the rituals they had practiced back in the Red Legion or Caiatl’s Empire but not understanding the cultural value such rituals held, mindlessly killing each other out of compulsion

[jagged badge]

Wait, two gay Awoken? Amrita Vae and Kazia perhaps?

[prime rover]

what do the suppressor drones in dsc even do

taniks keeps the trash cans closed and the drones stop that from happening somehow?

[dim minnow]

supposedly

raid mechanics tend to not have much lore coverage

keep in mind that Taniks himself is mostly machine, so him having something that locks the nuclear core deposits is likely

[lime tiger]

that could be it

ill look

eh doesnt seem like it. im pretty sure they were a palidan or both palidans. and im also pretty sure they died

[chrome fog]

Have you tried searching “paladin” in Ishtar-Collective

It’s possible there are these “paladins” you’re referring to but there’s not anything that immediately comes to mind that’s called paladin or could be considered a paladin save for the Queen’s Wraths or the certain Titan orders

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/search/Paladin/

[dim minnow]

P E T R A S P O T T E D

[chrome fog]

Under Petra’s page there’s mention of a Paladin Abre azure

As well as the two Eris mentioned

Aside from that and Telesto apparently, there’s no mention of Paladins, much less a lesbian couple that died

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-royal-awoken-guard

Closest to a “Queens Guard”

[safe galleon]

question: is the riven in this season the very same riven we killed, or is this some kinda fucky-wucky space magic stuff ex. the nightmares, who weren't really the people they represented

[trim grotto]

it's actual Riven

just a bit more dead than before

[safe galleon]

'a bit' is certainly A Way of putting it

is this kind of 'summoning their spirit' magic a riven only thing, or could other dead people ex. cayde or amanda be brought back?

[trim grotto]

It's pretty much just Riven. We have her heart, and death for an Ahamkara isn't the end anyway - as you can tell from all of the bones we've been encountering and the power they still have.

[safe galleon]

what's up with the bones in warlord's ruin, anyways? have they been dormant until just recently in-lore or have they been stirring shit since the ahamkara died and only just very recently become an actual problem we had to deal with?

[blazing wasp]

Taken is like, under control of people with a strong will to do do, xivu had to dip and witness ain't here

So it took the opportunity

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[ember storm]

the taken will actively seek out masters if any aren't there

[queen otter]

Who are the 4 most important enemies in terms of lore in the destiny universe

[lethal inlet]

Mara said " I'd rather risk failing then wait" here we are waiting for Delayed Final Shape

[empty fern]

So in a sense
The taken are like despicable me minions?

[safe galleon]

it all makes sense now, the witness just wanted to steal the moon

and what celestial body does the traveler bear a striking resemblance to?

that's right: the moon

[empty fern]

Hmmmm

[jagged badge]

The Witness, obviously. Then I suppose Oryx and Ghaul would be two other important ones

In terms of our lore I mean. Their scales and what they’ve done against us

[tawdry mauve]

Eramis 💀

[velvet flax]

The Witness, Savathun, Oryx, Eramis and Ghaul are the main 5 antagonists I'd say

Eramis would be a lot better in recent times if she actually had consistent writing

[blazing wasp]

In a sense eramis is comic relief

She accomplishes nothing she tries to do

And only worsens the situation for her entire race

She was why they were hunted for sport in a period

[lime tiger]

we ever learn where the black garden is yet?
old d1 theories were that it was in the traveler. and iirc the trailers for final shape in the traveler looks sorta similarish

[blazing wasp]

To my knowledge we don't know shitfuck

We don't even know if its a place you can travel to without a portal

[little gorge]

the reason some parts of the pale heart might look similar is they're emulating our memories of the black garden

[safe galleon]

so like

do we ever learn why nezarec is called the FINAL god of pain

it seems like an oddly specific descriptor

[little gorge]

prolly just sounds cool

[safe galleon]

yeah but counterpoint - it doesn't

[little gorge]

subjective

[safe galleon]

maybe they Meant it to sound cool but like, i hear 'god of pain' and i go 'yeah that tracks, neat name' and then i hear 'final god of pain' and i'm just left confused as to what the final is in there for

[exotic cloak]

Final Shape

[safe galleon]

but thats different

if the final wasnt there as a descriptor it'd just be

The Shape

[exotic cloak]

Taniks is The Shape

It doesn't sound so cool

[jagged badge]

Nez is probably an egotistical bastard who wants to be the sole arbiter of pain or something, I dunno

It’s just a lofty, grand title

[blazing wasp]

And I love him for it

Unapologetic bastards who don't try to justify their assholery are among my fave character tropes

[lime tiger]

if an ahemkara does their own wish they dead dead yea?

[jagged badge]

Yes

Ahamkara feed off of the gulf between desire and reality

So when they grant a wish, they twist it so that they feed off the difference they have created

[lime tiger]

ya

thx

[jagged badge]

But if they’re granting their own wish, they aren’t twisting anything

No gulf

No food

[lime tiger]

as sucky and sad as i have found bungie to have left their game to rot (IMO) at least this seas has snippets of good lore. I havent been invested in the lore for a while. but this is A. easily digested lore and B. interesting lore

[safe galleon]

i dont get the logic here tbh

[lime tiger]

always love going back to oryx and TTK dlc lore. that was the days Destiny was best other than tiny bits in D2

[safe galleon]

if i sat down for a meal and ended up not eating anything and skipping that meal

i would not immediately Perish

[lime tiger]

if you were the size of an ahamkara and were magical paracausal and such like them, you would not be the same

[safe galleon]

ig

[jagged badge]

What are you on about?

“Left their game to rot”

[lime tiger]

aint been the same game for a phat minute

but i also have changed. so i dont put it only on them

[jagged badge]

There’s been loads of improvements. They delayed Final Shape so they can focus on making it the best they can make it

That’s not leaving it to “rot”

[lime tiger]

idc that they delayed it that aint what i mean

there have been improvements. but at the cost of decrease in quality of other stuff

[chrome fog]

The Witness, Savathun, Oryx, aaaaand I can’t really think of anyone else who has as much overarching impact over the narrative that is our enemy other than these three

[lime tiger]

xivu?

and tbh im hellllla confused on if savathun is still bad or not either

[chrome fog]

Simulation of the Garden, still in the Vex Network kinda maybe

[lime tiger]

ok thx

[ember storm]

she’s always been bad

[chrome fog]

She was an enemy regardless; Witness establishes most of the conflict in the most literal sense, Oryx gives us a little bit of insight into the Sword Logic and the Witness’ philosophy/goals, Savathun reveals a majority of this information and then some

[ember storm]

everything she’s ever done has been for herself

[lime tiger]

yea. but imo that doesnt make it inhernetly bad.
our guardians have done the same to an extent

[ember storm]

“protecting” the traveler was literally just kidnapping to ensure her throne world would be the only thing left

she consciously chose to fuck everyone else over at every opportunity

nothing she does is for any greater good of any sort

it is explicitly and entirely self sacrifice

[lime tiger]

i get witness and oryx. oryx did what he did out of revenge (arguably due to witness but idk and technically id consider that retcon reasoning kinda. but doesnt matter)

[chrome fog]

Inherently no, that does not technically make her bad, but also consider how she’s exploited most of not all possible resources for power, albeit all of this hinging off of a lie the Witness told her through the worm familiar

[ember storm]

the existence of guardians means they’re making sacrifices constantly, otherwise they’d all just be warlords

[chrome fog]

That’s why I elaborated that Oryx gives us a better understanding of the doctrine most of our enemies are fighting for, the one which the Witness had instilled in them via manipulation

[lime tiger]

at the current rate from what i see, we are saving the places we save out of self preservation just as much as for others

[ember storm]

you can’t compare what a guardian does on strikes to the curse of the dreaming city or countless civilizations the hive have eradicated

[ember storm]

you’re really not seeing it properly, honestly

[lime tiger]

ofc not i dont mean to.

[chrome fog]

Yeah, but also we don’t backstab our allies

[ember storm]

there was literally an entire dlc about whether or not guardians would succumb to power and temptation for selfishness

[lime tiger]

no we dont

tho tbh. theres a solid 4 or 5 ways to do morality.
for games and movies i tend to do unitarianism (i think its called)
totality is what matters and everything is weighted the same

[chrome fog]

Look

She’s just bad

[lime tiger]

so sure we dont backstab. but we do other "bad" things

[ember storm]

she is a villain

she is meant to be bad

[chrome fog]

Even if it was due to manipulation, she’s ultimately responsible for the genocide machine that are the Huve

[ember storm]

it’s war

[lime tiger]

i think shes meant to be grey/change

[ember storm]

of course it’d be preferable to not have to kill

but we have to kill

[chrome fog]

Grey leaning more toward self-serving in a bad way

[ember storm]

this doesn’t make us bad

end of story

[lime tiger]

yes it does

[chrome fog]

Anyways

[lime tiger]

killing others is always going to be bad. but its totality

[chrome fog]

Let’s nip this in the bud, this’ll be an annoying tangent that neither side will agree on

[lime tiger]

fair enough

[chrome fog]

Savathun was and can still be an enemy

[lime tiger]

ah yea. i 100% agree with that part

[simple kayak]

is xivu actually dead?

[grand jungle]

So vex are meant to be like really smart right

[trim grotto]

No.

Her connection to her Throne World was severed, which renders her vulnerable. If she dies, she actually dies.

[trim grotto]

Exceptionally so, albeit in a limited fashion. They cannot comprehend paracausality.

[chrome fog]

To an extent, they have a complete understanding of conventional physics - the stuff that Paracausality got added to - which they have such mastery over that they can create simulated spaces that occupy a similar space as the ascendant plane

[uneven canyon]

Who were Dam and Sire

[trim grotto]

Riven and Taranis

[uneven canyon]

Why were they called dam and sire

[jagged badge]

From a quick Google, dam and sire are terms used for horses meaning like “parents” it seems

So as Riven and Taranis were parents to their clutch, they are the sire and dam respectively

[ember storm]

would a taken ahamkara egg taste better or worse than a normal one

[fresh zephyr]

Where does vex milk come from 🤨 how are they milking the vex

I’m sorry if it sounds like a weird question

[devout nimbus]

Vex milk or radiolaria IS the vex

[jagged badge]

The Vex Radiolaria is the Vex

[devout nimbus]

They are tiny little organisms that make up the milk

Which control the robots

Thats why you see it inside all the vex

And why when you land in pools of it it hurts

It's the vex trying to eat you

[gentle geyser]

They just want a bite let them have it

[jagged badge]

Well, not eat

Convert you into Vex

Like they were doing with Asher

[devout nimbus]

Simpler way to explain it but yeah

[devout nimbus]

If you wanna be a vex then sure

Someone actually drunk vex milk

Did not end well for them

[empty fern]

Worse,

[gentle geyser]

a little thirsty

[outer dragon]

Malk

[outer dragon]

Said it was salty

Like the ocean

Not sus

[ember storm]

well this was sort of the plot of the perdition lost sector

[fresh zephyr]

Really

[ember storm]

you know the vex one

fun fact: none of the vex in there were built

those were all human/exo subjects at one point

every single one

[safe galleon]

the vex as a whole were originally constructed though, right?

[jagged badge]

We don’t know how the Vex came to be

Unveiling had given us an origin for them, but we don’t know if that is accurate or not

Or to what extent it is accurate

[safe galleon]

what was the supposed origin, then?

[ember storm]

they were one of many groups of flowers apart of the games that the gardener and winnower played

it's all metaphorical though so nothing's particularly definitive or specific

[jagged badge]

That before existence, a virulent pattern that came to be the Vex won the Flower Game every time the Gardener and Winnower played. When they created the actual universe, this pattern developed into the Vex at some point

[ember storm]

if you were to follow unveiling exactly, the vex existed before the universe and managed to escape into it after the whole debacle between the g/w

but it's all propaganda from the witness at the end of the day, so

[safe galleon]

oh yes, i know that bit. but that doesn't really explain the mechanics of where they came from, does it? like it doesnt explain what they originally were, right

[ember storm]

the Unveiling explanation is that the vex and all the other flowers were just created for the sakes of the game

the Gardener made the life, the game was seeing how it turned out, and the Winnower destroyed everything so it'd start over

also i just realized your name is meant to be totodile

[safe galleon]

i thought the flower game was just the gardener and winnower positioning things that already were, or would come to be, and letting them progress to their natural end states, and that ended up being the vex? wouldn't that mean that the vex weren't really created for the game and were instead just kind of a product of its natural progression

[safe galleon]

you got it backwards

the name came first, then the pfp

[chrome fog]

Essentially Unveiling sets the Vex up as an inevitable emergent species in the lifespan of the universe that always assimilates all existence into itself. That makes sense as without Paracausality being outside of their understanding, Vex should theoretically integrate anything and everything into themselves

[chrome fog]

That’s correct! But it’s more like they set up existence-scale mechanisms in a universe sized Rube-Goldberg machine to see if individual species will cooperate by the end of the universe or if they would eliminate each other in a continuous cycle of Social Darwinism; though again, this is simply from the perspective of Unveiling. We do have the MK 44 Stand Asides which seemingly attributes the role of winnowing and gardening - basically both pruning and planting the metaphorical “Flowers” - to the Gardener, as well as some other entry in I believe the Dreams of Alphi Lupi lore book claiming the Witness as a fals sister

Waltz’ explanation also still fits, as technically the two beings would be doing as he said in Unveiling, though the end goal was seeing whose belief would win out in the end, essentially every time going towards the Winnower

But again, can’t really trust Unveiking since it’s the Witness’ word

[safe galleon]

what is an oversoul? is it just something crota has, or is it a more wide reaching concept thats just more prominently featured with him?

additional question: is crota a hive god, or just a much stronger than ordinary hive?

[jagged badge]

It’s a method of hiding your death, so that when you die, you don’t actually die. It can also be used as a weapon

Oryx had an Oversoul too. I believe that was the Dreadnaught’s super weapon that we see him use on the Awoken fleet

Oversouls were actually invented by his twin daughters

[safe galleon]

i don't understand. doesn't a throne world do the exact same thing in regard to providing immortality?

[jagged badge]

Also fun fact about Oversouls, there were three Hive sisters who hid their deaths in each other, so they could only die by all dying at once

[jagged badge]

Kinda

The Hive are literally stacking on death resilience methods lmao

[safe galleon]

"whatever dies never deserved to live in the first place," i say, going into a fight with 50 stacked buffs

if oryx had an oversoul, how was he allowed to die permanently? shouldn't it have resurrected him?

[jagged badge]

I dunno, I guess we dealt with it beforehand?

I don’t remember Taken King’s campaign tbh

[sleek matrix]

We killed oryx in his throne world

[jagged badge]

Yeah, that’s funny on paper. I think the rationalisation is that the Hive earned this shit themselves. They pushed the boundaries of the universe and their power and gained these abilities

[safe galleon]

well i say he died permanently but to be fair it seems(?) like you might just be able to get ghosts to resurrect people who are definitely dead, or at least the hive seemed to think it was feasible??

[jagged badge]

We’re blasphemers because our immortality was given to us. We don’t have to earn it

[sleek matrix]

Its unlikely it would of worked

[safe galleon]

that makes sense

[sleek matrix]

Oryx was radiating alot of taken energy so his body was still growing but i would say his soul and all that was long gone

The mind so to speak

[safe galleon]

you don't think? why not? we already know ghosts get to pick people even if they're not """assigned""" to them

[sleek matrix]

If oryx was revived it wouldnt have been him it would be completely different

[safe galleon]

like the one ghost who resurrected that baby who fucked up the lore that people in here dont like talking about

[safe galleon]

oh fair enough

[jagged badge]

Min Shalphur

[safe galleon]

yea thats the one

[sleek matrix]

[limpid pond]

where did GoS take place?

[trim grotto]

In the Black Garden. Hence the name.

[jagged badge]

Well they should have called the raid the Black Garden of Salvation, shouldn’t they 😤

[limpid pond]

nah i mean like what planet

[trim grotto]

The Black Garden is on a different dimensional plane. It isn't on any destination but its own.

[ember storm]

there was a brief period where it just managed to bleed into the physical space of mars through a fucking subway tunnel

but the vex closed it off back and it's back to its isolated plane

[blazing wasp]

Paracausal oil spill

[chrome fog]

I’m more of the mind he’s fully convinced he’s dead, or at the very least honoring his final death by staying dead; the readings theoretically indicate he’s still alive but he’s just not… alive, as confusing as that is

[chrome fog]

I lik Shin Morpher

[ember storm]

slip molphe

[blazing wasp]

Shine morbius

[jade rampart]

Was calus just a pawn to the witness

[jagged badge]

Yes

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[empty fern]

Hah, you thought there was lore here but it was only me

Activity

[glad herald]

what happend at the end of lightfall

[dim minnow]

who isn't

[jagged badge]

The Witness used the Light of our Ghost in order to follow a pathway into the heart of the Traveler

A pathway that exists due to the connection of the Traveler and the Veil

At least that’s the current explanation I think?

Someone else may tell me I’ve got something wrong

[glad herald]

idk ive heard that its like a mystery or sum

or like not fully explained

[dim minnow]

the Witness made a link between the Primordial Darkness within the Veil and the Primordial Light within the Traveler using our Ghost

[jagged badge]

I mean, it was explained more or less back in Lightfall

We just have extra context now that influences our understanding of events

[empty fern]

We lost
Quickest answer

[trim grotto]

someone make me activate my brain
lore me

@lament plume, i choose you

[lament plume]

huh

[trim grotto]

hit me with a wild lore question to make my brain start up

[lament plume]

why you choose me

[trim grotto]

excellent question

what's always bugged you that you want to know

[lament plume]

why you choose me

[trim grotto]

cuz ur cool

[lament plume]

ultimate lore question is why bungo wont drop me god roll rocket sidearm

[trim grotto]

schadenfreude
they're watching you

[lament plume]

[dim minnow]

ok, JMS failed, guess it's my turn

@trim grotto If Zavala x Caiatl is canon, then who would Zavala's best man be at their wedding?

[trim grotto]

Crow

No, Saladin

[dim minnow]

already got it wrong

but yes, it would be Saladin

[lament plume]

Wrong, its JMS

[grizzled zinc]

I got a lore question

What do hive do on their holidays?

[chrome fog]

Turn things inside out

To copy how Oryx turned his Throneworld inside-out and made it the interior of his ship the Dreadnaught

And if not that, arguing who of the ones they tithe to is the most powerful

[grizzled zinc]

Ohh

That makes sense

“For our holiday you will wear your shirts inside out.”

[chrome fog]

Rocks, swords, living creatures, especially living creatures. Inside out.

[livid grotto]

So who is gay

[trim grotto]

Bit of an awkwardly phrased question, but quite a number of characters in Destiny.

I believe Eris made a list. One moment.

[candid inlet]

t7tempest (ID 620962979491479562)

[Message Link](#✨destiny-discussion message) to #✨destiny-discussion
Saint-14
Osiris
Lord Shaxx
Devrim Kay
Marc
Suraya Hawthorne
Mara Sov
Sjur Eido
Eramis
Athrys
Ana Bray
Camrin Dumuzi
Elisabeth Bray
Ikora Rey
Drifter
Eriana-3
Wei Ning
Micah-10
Hector Abram
Wesley Abram
Maya Sundaresh
Chioma Esi
Chalco Yong
Amrita Vae
Kazia
Mist-1
Orewing
Nimbus
Stargazer
Quinn Laghari
Paolo
Adinew
Oryx

Command triggered by maelstronnar. Message link from · Nov 18, 2023, 2:03 AM

[trim grotto]

There we go
Thanks Eris

[inland ruin]

Question! HAve there always been.. Ahamkara Bones in "The Shattered Throne"?

[trim grotto]

As in the actual collectables? Since Forsaken launch, yes.

[mossy hearth]

Are the people on neptune humans?

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[mossy hearth]

Dang

When did they get there

Lul

[trim grotto]

The Collapse. The Exodus Indigo successfully landed on Neptune, though that wasn't their intended destination.

[inland ruin]

Ones that I just found up there, kinda.. hidden away, soo.. likely, yeah!

[mossy hearth]

I see alright thanks

[trim grotto]

The people on Neomuna are currently in cryo, with their minds connected to the Cloudark. Perfectly human, just essentially in VR.

It's a failsafe for their people in times of crisis.

That's why there's a bunch of hologram people around

[mossy hearth]

So they are technically dead?

Their bodies

[trim grotto]

uh

no

[mossy hearth]

Alright

[trim grotto]

Once the siege ends, they'll wake up, and go back to their normal lives

[mossy hearth]

👍

[blazing wasp]

May i receive elaboration on shaxx I can't find shitfuck online

[trim grotto]

I believe Eris is referring to The Vow

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-vow

Also Crimson Doubles with Saladin and whatnot

[blazing wasp]

Ah

Thanks

[main parcel]

Just did my first dare of eternity run. Why is there is trans-dimensional horse in there?

[trim grotto]

The Star Horse isn't really properly canon

half-canon

ignore the horse

[chrome fog]

Star Horse has purposefully placed itself and Dares of Eternity outside the canon

[main parcel]

schrodinger's horse?

[chrome fog]

Bungo Is Horse

Basically there will be no major impact from Dares outside of getting some weapons from it, none of it is at all related to Destiny’s story save the broader connections to Bungie’s Paraverse which spans across all the games they developed

[main parcel]

I don't even know what other games they developed.

[chrome fog]

You should, Halo is a pretty big franchise

[main parcel]

Oh yeah, I played the first 3 Halo games back in the day. I had forgotten about those. In my defence, it was about 15+ years ago.

So is this paracausal starhorse the thing that Xur serves. I've been wondering about who Xur serves for a while, I guess now I know.

[chrome fog]

Basically everything under this search is connected in some way or the other, the Easter eggs are supposed to suggest as much
https://www.google.com/search?q=bungie+games&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#wgvs=e

[chrome fog]

Xur serves the Nine, Star Horse just borrows him for a little bit

[main parcel]

Do Halo and Destiny are not part of the same universe, but are part of the same paraverse (I guess I can translate paraverse as "multiverse")?

[trim grotto]

Pretty much

[chrome fog]

More on the Nine, we haven’t really gotten to them in a while but the beginning of D2 had more info on them
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine

Also they made the Prophecy dungeon(? Mael correct me if I’m wrong) which showed they were aware of the events of Red War, Beyond Light, and a couple other things

Prophecy is as it is, a prophecy

[trim grotto]

they bloody well were aware of the Red War, they half caused it

one of them did, anyway

But no, the Prophesy Dungeon wasn't referencing that
It came out shortly before Beyond Light

[chrome fog]

A bit of trolling with sensor systems, even though there was already a big storm over the Last City

Oh wait yeah, Caital

Also ye I remember it came out during Arrivals

[jagged badge]

There isn’t one

That’d be silly

There are multiple characters of various classes who are very effective fighters an strategists and such

[ember storm]

waking up today and choosing violence

powerscaling question, who wins taniks the scarred or aran ryan from punch out wii

[blazing wasp]

Ryan

He'd solo raid encounters

[chrome fog]

Aw they deleted the message

[safe galleon]

so the psions the cabal have with them are an enslaved species, right? what's the status on that now that we have cabal allies? do they just still keep slaves and we're just cool with it, or?

[jagged badge]

Caiatl freed them

[safe galleon]

ah i see

[jagged badge]

Calus was actually going to free them too iirc

But some Psions worked against that

Because they liked being unique Freeborn

[safe galleon]

that's a little odd, but to each their own ig

[jagged badge]

It’s not that inaccurate to how some people act irl tbh

[empty fern]

Plebeians

[outer dragon]

Crabs in a bucket

Pulling each other down

[ember storm]

you really shouldn’t respond to a tyrant perpetuating slavery with that

and it was mainly Otzot the Freeborn

you can probably guess from her title, but her status and quality of life was only due to her being free

she didn’t want to lose it even if it meant others would be free

[empty fern]

So like, what happens to savathun now that eris took her power?

She stays dead until we need her again?

[slim elk]

Nope
Savathuns alive but we have Immaru hostage

[empty fern]

Ah

[slim elk]

Now why we haven't crushed or at least restrained Immaru is an open question

[jagged badge]

Savathûn didn’t have that power

That was latent power Savathûn had accrued with her worm but could not use as a Lightbearer

Savathûn is still exactly as powerful as she was in Witch Queen with the Light

[slim elk]

It's the sword logic in action

Eris just took in all the "experience points" from killing Savathun for a massive power boost

[blazing wasp]

Something something snapcube shadow the hedgehog sin points

[chrome fog]

She couldn’t access all that ascendent energy in the first place without her worm; she still can Rez and whatnot, we see this in some of the lore tabs straight after the fact, and Saint puts her through the wringer slaughtering her over and over again

[chrome fog]

YOU’RE SO RIGHT

[outer dragon]

So with the reveal of Riven's mate being the cause lf the eggs being scattered, what do we think the big twist/hook of the season?

[trim grotto]

i am revealed as canon

[jagged badge]

That’d be the best Dawning gift

[blazing wasp]

If you watched the episode you know im right

[ember storm]

distress

[ember storm]

i got it it just wasnt funny

[blazing wasp]

Yeah thats fair

[safe galleon]

why would we kill immaru at this stage

savathun hasn't even tried to do anything to us as far as i know. riven may have been somewhat uncooperative but even if savathun knew or at least had an idea that she would be, it's not her fault we killed riven's entire species

[blazing wasp]

It was theorised its rivens fault in the first place

[safe galleon]

that what is riven's fault?

[slim elk]

Incorrect looking at who's the problem

We still have antagonistic encounters with Savathuns forces when literally everything is saying to drop the hostility and work together to handle the Witness

We wanted to handle Savathun permanently, it's as easy as popping the ghost

[safe galleon]

are the hive in this season savathun's brood? i don't know how you could tell given that (iirc anyway) lightbearers don't show up much of anywhere

[slim elk]

Wrong seasonal content again

It's the post story dialogue in Witch's activities

[safe galleon]

can you link me or something, or describe what you're talking about

[dim minnow]

main enemies this season are Vex/Taken/Scorn

though I'd argue that the Vex are the focus

[slim elk]

Still engage in attacks on Savathuns forces.. when we should have inadvertent cease-fire until the Witness is handled

[safe galleon]

do they attack us or do we attack them? afaik the sotw activities were for tithes, if we go to her spire and shit after the truce has ended then aren't we kind of fair game at that point

[dim minnow]

we're mainly just making sure Savathun doesn't try and pull a fast one on us

[slim elk]

And that my immense confusion on the issue.
We wanted to, we can end the threat permanently really easily

Instead we go opt for a half measure and refuse to even restrain Immaru at all?

(Thus his attempt to ruin the Festival of the Lost)

[safe galleon]

i mean it sounds like the vanguard are the ones breaking the peace here in that context

[dim minnow]

wenever had any sort of peace with Savathun anyways

[safe galleon]

if sav isn't actually doing anything and the vanguard is sending guardians in to cull the hive in case she does do something

[slim elk]

Really im questioning why we don't strap a praxic arc band to Immaru and have Zavala use him as a paperweight lol

[safe galleon]

i mean could be any number of things

i'd guess just to keep the leverage

[slim elk]

Nope.
We know that we literally keep so little tabs on Immaru he's able to swap shells constantly and vandalize Festival of the Lost

[safe galleon]

i'm saying 'it could be any number of things' as to why immaru isn't a fine paste

[dim minnow]

all Eris bothered to do was leave a cage and a note saying "Immaru goes here" or something like that

[safe galleon]

if you're going to collect on that kind of leverage, i.e the ability to make an immortal being mortal, you'd do it when you actually intend to follow through, which, there are higher priorities within the story that make much more sense to pursue

[plain bronze]

is there a lore reason we can do dungeons/raids multiple times

[dim minnow]

almost all dungeons and raids we do only once

the exceptions are Leviathan, Pit of Heresy, and Shattered Throne

Leviathan is done multiple times because at the end of Eater of Worlds, we see that several Calus robots are missing in the final chest room

Pit of Heresy is repeated because the Hidden Swarm keep on bringing Zulmak back through the Altars of Sorrow

and Shattered Throne because of the Dreaming City curse loop

@plain bronze

so every raid/dungeon is not repeated in lore except for those three

[plain bronze]

what about warlords ruin

cus you have to get the ahamkara bones

[dim minnow]

looking at the flavor text in the quest, I think it is reasonable to assume that lore-wise, the quest is done over the course of one dungeon run

[plain bronze]

makes sense

[safe galleon]

for a lot of content there's concrete, or at least pretty compelling, evidence it's only done once lorewise ex. there's an entry about rhulk being 100% definitely dead because his remains got blown up from a sparrow exploding, king's fall happens once because the events of ghosts of the deep are pretty directly referential to the end of king's fall

which both leave little room for any explanation that isn't 'its game mechanics' which i appreciate

[empty fern]

What I miss

[trim grotto]

me

[empty fern]

Damn

[safe galleon]

think i asked this before, but is crota a hive god, or just an especially strong hive? the hive seem to deify him, at the very least, ex. he's referred to with capitalized pronouns, which seems to pretty blatantly invoke religious connections

[tawdry mauve]

i dont think there is anything that differentiates a hive god from a really powerful hive

i think its just a honorific

[safe galleon]

really? i figured there was some kind of like, idk

quantifier?? or something?

yknow like how they seem to have 'domains'

war, cunning, i always forget what oryx's is

[tawdry mauve]

navigation

[jagged badge]

Crota’s kinda a demigod I think?

I dunno

[tawdry mauve]

hes refered to as the godknight

[jagged badge]

Eris does have that line about him, saying, “I have seen what the Hive call a god”

[tawdry mauve]

which is what makes me think that the title of "god" is entirely honorific

i mean what does god even mean to them in the end

just extra powerful?

we had no issues merking 2.5 of them

is nokris a hive god?

[livid grotto]

He’s “geezer” to dark below players

[ember storm]

he’s the son of a god, and with no info on Oryx’s mate (if one exists), he would be considered one

due to his exile and all records of him being destroyed, though, they don’t worship him as one

his brood was also just focused on serving Xol

the main point is that Crota was the son of Oryx (the king) and had a myriad of victories under his belt, as well as his own armies

he was as much of a god as the others

he’s just not one of the three main siblings who had their defined natures

[ember storm]

“No issues” is downplaying all 3 campaigns pretty hard, honesty

[chrome fog]

There’s also the point that Hive create broods of offspring, meaning they more so breed their forces with only a few notable offspring should said offspring seize power for themselves

[lime tiger]

yo who were the people who i was talking about savathun and her morality with?
the community was kinda torn about if crow was good or if he was bad/should we remember what he did as uldren.

A. why does savathun seem so much the same when she doesnt have her memories as she did before she was resurected. unlike crow
B. for those saying she was bad because of the stuff she did previously, to follow the crow logic. that should be nothing
therefore she would be mostly good as of currently right?

[trim grotto]

No, because those aren't the only aspects at play.

[lime tiger]

ok. can you explain?

[trim grotto]

A Lightbearer is resurrected without memory to free them from old bias, these inner pearls of judgement. Crow experienced life as this fresh faced person, free of his past, until it was forced upon him. At this point, he wrestled with his past, and spent a long time hating Uldren and until he eventually reconciled with Uldren's past via therapy.

Savathûn had no such break, no experience as her own freshly revived person. She learned of her past, and immediately worked on becoming exactly who she used to be.

And so she did - she accepted that identity wholeheartedly, no seeking of atonement, no regret.

[lime tiger]

yea ig that makes sense

thx

and then. actually. do we know A. how powerful the witness is or B. to what extent he exerts such power?
so like. theoretically, he is powerful enough to just straight up "control" our enemies to be bad. or does he just manipulate their already formed desires.

cause like. say the witness just straight up controls the like of sav or calus. they then would not neccessarily be "bad" but controlled by somone bad

so i assume he more helps their already held bad stuff

[trim grotto]

The Witness has, by and large, manipulated its way to victory.

[lime tiger]

as opposed to full on control? just making sure im clear hah

[trim grotto]

As opposed to full on control, yes.

[lime tiger]

thx

[ember storm]

it also has a sizable taken army, for the record

[fervent sandal]

Considering the nexus mind from that D1 strike could be resurrected if we didn't stop it couldn't atheon be reborn as well?

[dry lagoon]

The Witness is a genius ngl

This weeks lore dump and only one entity able to cross, just mass conglomerate into one entity to exploit it

I don’t know what this means in terms of the reveal trailer for TFS having the whole gang inside the pale heart but that’s probably just promotional stuff. I don’t know how they will or if they even will try to explain there being more than 1 guardian for larger activities in the Pale Heart if one guardian can only cross

[ember storm]

the vex are constantly adapting and changing themselves and their tactics

general minds they reconstruct without any doubt because they just need to happen

to the vex, the vault of glass was an in-progress solution that turned out to be a dead end

there’s no reason for them to remake atheon because they already know we’re perfectly capable of destroying it

whereas lesser minds like the nexus mind have more general jobs that are more wide and their mere existence is necessary for such operations

big specific minds like atheon or panoptes are built for literally one thing, and if that one thing turns out to be a waste, the vex just move on

(also side note the nexus mind was taken and permanently destroyed)

[little gorge]

well had

no longer controls the taken from inside the traveller

[pulsar veldt]

Could it be that there’s more beings like the witness on the other side of the travelers portal? Maybe the witness got exiled from wherever the portal takes you and he’s coming back for revenge?

Maybe the witness didn’t look like what he looks like now a long time ago

Maybe the witness found something bigger and more dangerous

That gave him the current form we see him as

[empty fern]

What

Actually nvm

[trim grotto]

Out of curiosity, did you experience the Season of the Deep?

Because it sounds like you may be missing a pretty strong big of history

[little gorge]

https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?si=pPoRptgU1ZXz21mB
enjoy

[exotic cloak]

Hey, in any of the previous seasons has Drifter or Eris been seen using stasis?

[jagged badge]

In the lore perhaps

We haven’t seen them in combat in cutscenes though

[exotic cloak]

[safe galleon]

i love mara demanding to know why riven refused the final wish in the season's opening cutscene

like, gee i dunno, take three guesses

[exotic cloak]

Oh yes, I will grant the wish to the race that ended my life and my entire race just because they asked me to do it

[safe galleon]

for a dead member of a dead species who was being resurrected as a spirit for the sole purpose of fulfilling a wish to her species' eradicators, riven was surprisingly chill about it

even though i imagine she had the bargain in mind to begin with anyways

[exotic cloak]

She's already dead, why get angry? Bad vibes in the afterlife is not healthy

[outer dragon]

I argue that Riven is right to be against working with us

We drove her race to the brink of distinction.
She had no way of knowing that her mate did what they did and saved part of their clutch.
We killed her, for an admittedly good reason, and destroyed what eggs we could find (side note I should spend the time to get those done this season and earn the title)

[trim grotto]

Taken eggs, to be fair

[tawdry mauve]

the ahamkaras remind me of feral hogs

mostly an invasive species, you can feel bad for them, but the world is a better/safer place with them dead

doesnt help the ahamkara are decidedly more humanized than a wild animal

[jagged badge]

Teggs if you will

[trim grotto]

I won't

I prefer Eggen

[outer dragon]

What if Riven had wished on herself to reverse the corruption like her mate (i can't remember the spelling, starts with a T) did to scatter the others

[gentle geyser]

Anyone who says otherwise clearly doesn’t know what its like to be killed and then have the people responsible come back to you telling you to help them

She really easily could’ve said no, which she did

[worldly river]

Wait did Osiris just say that he was the one who planted the Tree of Silver Wings?

[ember storm]

justified is the word you’re looking for, and only in a very specific sense in that Mara was responsible for the worst parts of her life

[ember storm]

the Io one specifically, yes

[ember storm]

she’s allowed to not enjoy it, but condemning the entire universe to extinction is very much not right at all, no matter personal grudges

[worldly river]

That's such a weird thing to suddenly bring up given I don't think that ever really got explained, unless the implication was its mere existence is what allowed us to communicate with the Witness during Arrivals

Also lowkey, Osiris using Strand to stop Mara was super cool, good shit, been waiting for him to break that out at some point

[ember storm]

it’s been established for years

and yes the witness used another seed coming from that tree as a medium to communicate with us

[worldly river]

I mean it was the means yes but I always assumed it had some greater meaning

I think a lot of people did

[ember storm]

the trees of silver wings overall are definitely substantial and we still don’t know the full picture

what lots of people misunderstand is thinking Io had the only one in existence

[strange storm]

this week feels like it's foreshadowing us failing to get the next egg and riven having to do what taranis did (make and fulfil her own wish since she can no longer abide by the bargain with us)

[outer dragon]

Fug, got spoiled. Not your fault. Mine. I have to work today and should have stayed away
I was hoping to see something like this though. Osiris and Eris using darkness powers is peak

[jagged badge]

Why can’t she abide by the bargain with us?

[strange storm]

i mean, right now, she can. i'm just saying it feels like it's foreshadowing us failing to get the next/last egg, which would mean the bargain can't be completed

[jagged badge]

Ohhh

[tropic arch]

Short easy lore about drifter?

[worldly river]

Bro's been around since the Dark Age, has stayed pretty removed from Guardians and the Last City (he doesn't even have a class), ran a bar near Felwinter Peak under the name Wu Ming during the Dark Age, then ran with a crew exploring outside Sol
They found some crazy shit, including beasts that could suppress Light around them, his whole crew offed eachother after losing their Light when Ghaul caged the Traveler in Red War, he eventually ran with the Shadows of Yor for a while as Dredgen Hope, then the Nine took a liking to him and gave him the Haul to run Gambit so he could help prepare Guardians for using Darkness

He's since entered a committed relationship with Eris Morn as they periodically investigate Darkness shit

[shadow crypt]

Cook

[worldly river]

Also his Ghost is heavily modded and mute but can do some freaky Light shit

[shadow crypt]

I’ve haven’t been in touch with the story

Is savathun back?

[trim grotto]

She is. As per last season.

[shadow crypt]

How

[worldly river]

We let Immaru revive her

[shadow crypt]

Is she on our side?

[trim grotto]

Eeeehhhh

She's against the Witness

[worldly river]

Only in an enemy if my enemy sense

[shadow crypt]

Ah

[worldly river]

We needed her help to figure out how to get into the Pale Heart, as per Ahsa's instructions in Season of the Deep

[trim grotto]

Asper? I hardly know 'er!

[worldly river]

Under that condition we allowed her to be revived, but afterwards she left Immaru in the custody of the Vanguard as collateral to prove she wasn't gonna stab us in the back

Yet

[trim grotto]

Eris threw a book at him.

[worldly river]

^ This is very important

[shadow crypt]

So Immaru isn’t a threat for now

[trim grotto]

No, he's just very rude.

[worldly river]

Immaru is a little bitch

[shadow crypt]

Wait where is savathun now then?

[trim grotto]

In her Throne World.

[worldly river]

He wouldn't dare pull anything especially after we nearly crushed him for his smack talking Eris at the start of Season of the Witch

[shadow crypt]

Ah

[trim grotto]

Lore khrupt jumpscare

[tropic arch]

[trim grotto]

Anywho see ya in half an hour time to drive home and not crash and die

[worldly river]

Do it, no balls

Do a sick flip

[tropic arch]

Eyes closed

[trim grotto]

If I do those things then no balls may be a very real consequence

_> good thing mods don't know this channel exists

Anyway ciao

[dim minnow]

anyone else notice how the interaction with Osiris at the holoprojector said that we will follow Crow through the portal?

did they mean the Witness, or is Crow going to go through the portal at the end

[trim grotto]

It's either a weird spoiler or someone just had a brain fart
Honestly I think it meant Witness

[worldly river]

Given the lore tab of the Unforeseen Consequences ship (currently available so technically a spoiler) it's very possible

[fresh zephyr]

when oryx wipes you in kings fall during his final stand the abilities name is “doxology”

idk I just found that interesting

[blazing wasp]

Yea its why he says he calls out to the darkness too

And why in the og raid the main source of damage to him was the bombs themselves

[ember storm]

grasp of the king is a cooler ability

[strange storm]

i love how destiny always finds a way to use these obscure words but in the coolest way possible

[regal tree]

If we found the Fanatic, is there a possibility of Crow being able to command the scorn?

[ember storm]

doubt it

the scorn are a very contentious group especially with the fanatic around

do you really think crow would even like to be "commanding" legions of rotting eliksni corpses?

[regal tree]

Which is worse, commanding basically zombies or having someone else command them to try and kill you

[ember storm]

the entire concept revolves around what happens if fikrul meets crow

which we don't have an answer to

[tawdry mauve]

ziggurat

[ember storm]

he wants to help fikrul, but that's just because he knows him personally and he's one of few, if any at all scorn that actually have higher brain function

crow isn't going to give a shit about a screeb

[strange storm]

also the other reason i think this is because the messages in the legend version of Starcrossed (at least the one i've listened to) are ||written as if she's permanently dead already 💀 || at least it feels that way to me

[strange storm]

did crow know fikrul before he found him dying?

[ember storm]

meeting him as he was dying and resurrecting him as the first scorn is where they connection comes from

why do you think fikrul called him "father"

[strange storm]

no, i know that, i was just wondering if they knew each other before

[ember storm]

no

that's the entire point

uldren pitied a random dreg he never met before so much that he unconsciously triggered a wish with riven

[strange storm]

uldren recognizes fikrul as an archon, not a random dreg, but yes, i understand his character

just misremembered the lore, i thought he knew fikrul's name when he saved him for some reason. but he only learns it after

i expect the scorn episode to be about crow and fikrul tbh. fikrul's scorn seem 'alive' enough to be pitiable so we might be able to come to some kind of accord if crow is able to mediate

that said, i don't think crow would want to command the scorn, or really want anything for the scorn besides just letting them... live whatever kind of life fikrul wants for them? it's kind of hard to tell what fikrul's motivations are in the buried bloodline text

[slim elk]

So what are the odds Savathun intended to be the "one" the wish would have been sent through the portal?

She made the wish and would have known about the "twist" beforehand

[ember storm]

Savathun would never be the one to do any of the busywork if she didn’t have to

[slim elk]

Depends on the prize
And what the Witness is after is ultimate power. The question is who claims it first..

[glad herald]

What even are tourmenters

[trim grotto]

Tormentors? Excellent question!
It's a matter up for debate. We have some different theories, but no strict answer.

[chrome fog]

Calus I believe proclaims them as the result of collaborating with the Witness, so the initial presumption is that the Witness provided Calus with some genetic material from Nezarec (which would connect their titles and similar appearance) and Calus put whatever cloning expertise and technology he could onto creating the tormentors

It was one of the dialogues during the Lightfall campaign

[trim grotto]

Correct
But there has since been muddling

[peak coral]

mentioned during the first mission

yes

u had calus going "bwahaha! how r my cool collabs with da witwess!"

[jagged badge]

I thought it was Osiris who cited them as such, not Calus?

[vapid nymph]

lightfall destiny

[strange storm]

long underscore is right the first mission is basically calus boasting about the witness hiring him

[trim grotto]

Yes but the actual tormentor line in question is from Osiris

As I said though, that idea has since been muddled

[jagged badge]

VINDICATION

[trim grotto]

Um

Test Test

[jagged badge]

No need, I’ll find it

[trim grotto]

Okay discord borked

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/GkcdqLRxbYM?si=eJthgsphfiQUHBbs

7:12

[frigid sparrow]

I personally also relate the idea of the collaboration having a bit of Psion backing, due to their history with Nezarec's idolization.

[cedar stream]

this is crazy

guys can someone explain this, i never played this part or something

[tawdry mauve]

Mara was about to nuke riven into oblivion

Osiris stops her

[cedar stream]

isnt she already ded 😭

is there a lore reason why we cant double jump in the tower??

[cedar stream]

btw when did that happen?

[tawdry mauve]

This week

[cedar stream]

oo

[jagged badge]

Well, yeah, but we’re holding onto her spirit so she can grant our wish. I’m assuming Mara’s actions could have prevented her spirit remaining permanently

[cedar stream]

i see

[fervent sandal]

Lore wise what was the most powerful raid boss in Destiny 1?

I assume it was axsis?

[tawdry mauve]

oryx

[trim grotto]

Aksis?
Just a Fallen with funny legs

[tawdry mauve]

its either oryx or atheon

[ember storm]

Atheon is only powerful in the vault and he’s not even the one doing the erasing from existence

he’s just a trial moderator pinging the actual staff team

[jagged badge]

That is a very funny analogy

[fervent sandal]

Lol

Do we know why crota glowed blueish green while oryx didn't?

Just a stylish choice or is there more behind it

[tawdry mauve]

green was his favourite color

[fervent sandal]

Fair enough

[outer dragon]

Soulfire

[outer dragon]

Powerscaling aside
Oryx was the biggest threat in D1

[ember storm]

he was practically almost dead

starved for tribute and power he could essentially manifest himself as a skeleton

in stuff like nightmare hunts and dares his model was actually changed to reflect his normal physical appearance, which still included a green glow, but the difference is incredibly apparent

(Afaik this same model being reused for the reprised CE is just laziness/an oversight)

either way Oryx exclusively used taken powers

Crota exclusively used hive magic

they just look different because they are

[fervent sandal]

ah ok

[outer dragon]

A skeleton coated in Soulfire

[fervent sandal]

lo

lol*

[ember storm]

https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/destiny-2-crota-kneeling-in-front-of-oversoul.jpg

I’d make the “hope someone got fired for that blunder” joke, but

[empty fern]

Ecthar model (from d1) strike when?

[safe galleon]

i love how it looks like he's withering away in the d1 fight, looks spookier

still prefer the new swordbearer theme though

[empty fern]

How come the exo stranger uses the original no time (yellowish orange) in the cutscene but right after it’s the current ice camo model?

[trim grotto]

She wants to tell us, but she has -

[empty fern]

Mf

[ember storm]

he was never in a strike nerd

[empty fern]

That’s why I want one

Nerd

We got out of heresy
They can make it so

[outer dragon]

New Ecthar is mid

[empty fern]

Ikr

Like look at this, he only kept the basic knight chest

[vapid nymph]

hey nerds

i have a question

xur has this voiceline that’s like “there is a door in the woods… it is opening.”

do we have any idea what that’s referring to

i was thinking possibly the Galaxy Pools because it’s in the dark forest but idk

afaik that voiceline dates back to red war and galaxy pools weren’t found until beyond light

[outer dragon]

He has lots of nonsensical lines

[vapid nymph]

true but i would guess most of them refer to prophecy or cocytus and are a lot less nonsensical now that we know more abt them

“Your Traveler has a dark mirror”

the witness/pyramids/veil

“The Heliosheathe is not the only door into the system...”

cocytus

etc

[ember storm]

they’re also still not in the game in any official capacity

and it’s pretty well known that the Nine aren’t omniscient by any means

whatever Xur says is just going to be regurgitating whatever one of them might’ve come up with

literally anybody could’ve gone “maybe there’s a darkness version of the traveler” at any time and ultimately have been correct

Xur isn’t special at all in this case

[pure tree]

I've heard that Randy, the blueberry who was given Gjallarhorn after we blew up his old rocket launcher is a recurring character in the lore, aka turned up once or twice in lore cards. If that's true, can someone link me to other lore cards with him involved?

[empty fern]

I think his gun (Randy’s throwing knife) and the broadsword (or was it claymore) are the other texts

[outer dragon]

No

Thats a different Randy isn't it

[empty fern]

Why would bungie make 2 different randys

[outer dragon]

Because its Bungie

[trim grotto]

It does appear to be a different Randy, as far as I can tell

[trim grotto]

One moment

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/trials-triplet?highlight=Randy
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/randys-throwing-knife-6?highlight=Randy
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/redrixs-claymore
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/hardline
That's literally all of it

But to reiterate, it's probably a different Randy

[ember storm]

why would bungie completely misappropriate the name of one of their own characters they decided to use as a main antagonist just because of a fan wiki

[trim grotto]

Funnily enough I know exactly who wrote that into the 'pedia

Nice person

[frigid sparrow]

Has failsafe done a single thing since d2 launch? Like, literally anything? Any involvement? Even a chat with someone recently?

[trim grotto]

She spoke with Glint once. Uh, last year.

[dim minnow]

most recent notable thing I know of was her telling Glint about the Headless ones

[dim minnow]

no, at least another year before that

[trim grotto]

oh god two years

[frigid sparrow]

Amazing

[dim minnow]

the first Festival of the Lost with Headless Ones

[trim grotto]

amazing

two years ago she had one conversation with Glint then

[dim minnow]

I think it was Y4 Festival

[trim grotto]

wherein she lamented that the Vanguard had forgotten about her

[dim minnow]

meanwhile Devrim finally became relevant in Defiance

[trim grotto]

_>

[dim minnow]

so maybe there's hope

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, "the vanguard"

[dim minnow]

if one Y1 destination vendor can become relevant again, then so can she

hell, Sloane and Asher had their times to shine already in Defiance/Lightfall and Deep

[frigid sparrow]

Tbh Asher mir was more relevant in the exotic quest than devrim was in the season

Sacrificed himself after however long being hunted down in the vex network compared to devrim just kind of being there I guess

[dim minnow]

Bungie really could have done better with Devrim admitedly

could have just showed us Devrim one-tapping a Cabal boss instead of him mentioning it over comms

[frigid sparrow]

Could say this about 90% of characters

So many of them just left there to simply exist for however long until they need to be relevant again, and even there that relevancy is questionable

Like of the missing planets, Sloane had a decent reintroduction, Asher had a pretty good sendoff, Ana did more Ana things, but we're still completely in the dark about Vance's whereabouts (and quite frankly I don't think Bungie ever will give a conclusion to his story)

Pretty much every world vendor is non-existent and has remained that way since their introductions, villains like the fanatic and yirix have been non-existent, etc

[dim minnow]

Fikrul is making a comeback at least

he's actually involved in the new dungeon

[frigid sparrow]

He is, and I'm glad

[dim minnow]

and he will be the focus of Revenant

[frigid sparrow]

But in a way, I don't think they can pull it off

[dim minnow]

I want him to act as our antithesis

[frigid sparrow]

Because in a way I feel like him being back is just a "oh right here's this loose thread we've gotta tie up"

I do have to catch up on dungeon lore so maybe that's me thing but even then the last major presence he had was in haunted

And he was there as a nightmare

He's been gone for such a long time a sudden return by him would just feel... Wrong to me

[dim minnow]

well he's not involved with the Witness at least

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, that's something I wish was pushed a bit more beforehand