📚lore-discussion

[chrome fog]

But it’s not really that they’re “food”, more like the only producer they have

¯_(ツ)_/¯

The Worm Gods themselves were imprisoned by the Leviathan on Fundament, and they were also bullied by Rhulk into following the Witness’ plan

[prime rover]

leviathan, related to season of the witch's leviathan-eater, unrelated to calus's leviathan?

this is what we get for not making more cool sounding english words that mean similar things

[chrome fog]

It’s Hebrew derived

[prime rover]

ogey so what is this particular leviathan

[chrome fog]

And yes

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Supposedly also a proto-worm

[trim grotto]

Lies

[chrome fog]

Honestly this is the most we got on anything relating to the worms prior to their partnership with the Hive
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/an-invocation

[chrome fog]

Mael please correct me, I’m honestly kinda lost regarding the Worm Gods’ history

[prime rover]

and fundament was uhhhh hive original home world before it like exploded for one reason or another?

I think I heard that somewhere

[chrome fog]

Ye

[trim grotto]

The Leviathan is a mysterious creature and we have no idea what it is and only vague descriptions of it

Headquarters thinks it is a proto-Worm and I decidedly disagree

If it was merely a proto-worm, why could it trap the Gods? And why is it physically different from Ahsa? So on, so forth

[chrome fog]

Waz the history of the Worm Gods?

[trim grotto]

It didn't explode, per se
The Worm Gods did a sneaky beaky and caused the God Wave, and blamed it on the Traveler to cause the Hive siblings to start their little journey in the first place

A world spanning wave of apocalyptic proportions

[prime rover]

okay so on the topic of maras pre-shattered throne

[trim grotto]

Eleusinia

[prime rover]

does more power allow them to just create more chunks of usable throne world out of nothing or what

was stealing oryx(?)s throne world bits the only way for mara to make her own bigger

[trim grotto]

Something like that
More power, more space. See Hiraks the Mindbender as an example of Tiny Throne™️

[trim grotto]

Mara crafted hers with Wish Magic so it doesn't follow standard rules

His Throne crumbled (sort of not really, since it existed in real space) but she got much of his power

[prime rover]

and this was before he caught her snagging bits of his throne to remodel her own

so when he figured out he smacked it apart across the ascendant plane/whatever the proper word is here

wait was shattered throne taken-ified when oryx broke it or when riven got killed and dreaming city got taken

[chrome fog]

He did, actually, since the crumbling of his Throneworld would’ve coincided with the events of Taken King, which was after her Throneworld shattered

It’s also why a bunch of her techeuns are lost, they got scattered across the Ascendent Plane when Oryx smashed the Throneworld apart

[prime rover]

run it back a bit

what caused his throne world to crumble

[ember storm]

he fucking died

[prime rover]

I think the chronological order I got for this in my head is fucked

so
mara wishes for a throne world and starts taking chunks out of oryx's
he finds out and smashes it to pieces
whatever the fuck happens in taken king (bonus: he dies)
the throne world crumbles(unrelated to mara taking chunks out of it)

is that about right

[ember storm]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-v

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[prime rover]

that lore entry gives me more questions if anything

[fiery copper]

The reason mara's throne world is in pieces, is because oryx likes breaking things

[modern lodge]

Where do ghosts go when they aren't out , do they just chill out beside you cloaked or do they just like absorb into you or something

I'm the back pack thing but like what is that?

[fiery copper]

If you've ever done the Oracle Engine weekly quest (understandable if not) Elusynia used to look a lot like that

[fiery copper]

We dont know

We do have guesses though

[modern lodge]

This being?

[fiery copper]

1. Ghost lives in our actual physical backpack

2. Glint talks about ghosts being "sentient wavelengths" and so they just inherently have the ability to disappear

3. They transmat to a safe place and like hide in taniks' walls or smth

[modern lodge]

I feel like the second one is more accurate, we don't really have like physical back packs

[fiery copper]

Depends on the armor

But yeah I like that one too

[prime rover]

-did she play the long game and intentionally be a nuisance to get killed and steal oryx's power from inside the throne world after he died or did she just come up with that plan on the spot after realizing she fucked up trying to steal a hive gods shit
-what was the letting-eris-and-guardians-know bit all about
-does everyone in the throne world have the ability to come back to life after its owner dies or can mara/awoken just do that
-what does she mean when she says stuff about surviving the chaos before space and time, weren't awoken just normal humans who got blasted by the cookies n cream special on exodus green or whatever it was called
-fuck

the second point was the plot of taken king the dlc right

[ember storm]

the cutscene of Mara “dying” references Eris and the end cutscene of TK literally has Eris mention Mara by name after oryx was killed

so

[fiery copper]

Man remember when people thought Eris saying "my queen" was proof that she was evil and in kahoots with savathun all along?

I rember

[ember storm]

the point is Mara’s throne world was not a normal one by any means so anything she did with it you shouldn’t attribute to anybody else

[smoky rose]

Also as far as throne worlds, if you own one you can respawn there... unless you are killed IN the throne world, then you are ultra mega perma dead pending ghost ressurection™️

[ember storm]

her method of creating and then leeching off of the power of oryx’s crumbling throne was a one time thing

any normal throne world will literally collapse when the owner dies

like physically if you remain there you will die

[smoky rose]

Well

Except for Savathun's

Or Oryx's

Or Mara's

[ember storm]

Savathun’s was literally in the process of being destroyed after she died a mortal

she rebuilt it with light and its sustained by the wellspring

Oryx’s throne world is literally not a normal one

as Mara’s isn’t either

none of them are normal

[prime rover]

wait so how does maras throne world being built different affect that lore entry and the questions I asked

[ember storm]

your third bullet point

[prime rover]

I'm more or less okay with handwaving how she ended up repurposing the power she took after oryx kicked it

[ember storm]

nothing is going to act the way this one specific event did

it was entirely dependent on a variety of circumstances

[prime rover]

but this was oryx's throne world which was built normally and not mara's, no?

so the normal rules apply here?

[ember storm]

if you’re just sitting in a normal throne world and the owner dies, the throne collapses

[ember storm]

Oryx’s throne world is also not normal

[prime rover]

oh

[ember storm]

as previously stated he inverted it into the physical plane

it’s incapable of collapsing

it’s built into a physical ship

the Dreadnaught

[prime rover]

so how did getting killed put mara into a physical-plane-throne-world

[chrome fog]

You mean pocket space backpack

[prime rover]

or is it some finicky rules where if you die you go into their throne world but this throne world is physical so you essentially resuscitate inside that physical throne world fuck

I feel like I'm having a much harder time understanding this than I should

[chrome fog]

Awoekn Magicks

She just can, due to her study of paracausal power

Both the paracausal power she has and her understanding of its mechanics let her affect the same results

[prime rover]

so all awoken have to potential to be essentially immortal as long as they stay in school for long enough?

[chrome fog]

Remember, the Awoken were made during a clash of Light and Darkness, they have a bit more freedom when it comes to their utilization of paracausal power

[chrome fog]

If they study to be a techeun, probably

Though they wouldn’t be as powerful as Mara, and so the mechanics of needing enough Ascendent energy probably apply here

Mara is a lot of “I am more powerful than you can grasp and I know more about the universe than is feasible to you” and can back it up

[prime rover]

what about that 'surviving primordial chaos before space and time' bit

did she actually make herself a time travel smoothie at one point

or was that just what happened when she got turned into an awoken during that first event on exodus green

[serene swift]

what powers does mara actually have, she just feels like shes there

[jagged badge]

Funky Awoken magic

[serene swift]

what is one thing she can actuall do in a fight against someone

[ember storm]

did you miss the cutscene where she summoned a bunch of orbs that tore through hive warships like paper

[chrome fog]

Probably that, yes

[chrome fog]

She fucking blew up a Pyramid ship

[serene swift]

was that her? i thought it was her and her coven of witches

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[ember storm]

she only needed techuens to summon multiple giant ones at once

[serene swift]

uhhhhh remind me when again? destiny has left my brain

[ember storm]

she could really just dr manhattan you if she ever wanted

there’s a reason the witness gave her a direct call offering to join it

[chrome fog]

It’s in a collection of lore tabs and I think confirmation of their canonicity is in a CE, it escapes my mind but I know it’s Fenchurch who relays these events to us after he encounters a thrall with a spike in it, and then getting visions of said “Mara blowing up a pyramid” after touching the spike that turns out to be a piece of said pyramid

[serene swift]

fair, anyhow just to settle a debate could
a run of the mill guardian beat mara or
could our guardian beat mara in a fight

[serene swift]

ah okay

[ember storm]

god no

[chrome fog]

Waltz do you know what tab that is?

[ember storm]

probably something CE lore meaning I don’t have it

[serene swift]

is there a reason besides, well needing a game, that mara doesnt help us on our missions more often

[prime rover]

what can ghosts fix on guardians

[ember storm]

she’s the queen of the awoken

[prime rover]

i know they can fix death but not hunger

[ember storm]

she’s never supposed to be on the front lines

[prime rover]

but if they got like horribly maimed i assume they cant heal that properly right

[ember storm]

and she’s still only one person

[chrome fog]

They can but Drifter was stubborn

[prime rover]

they gotta be dead to res

[ember storm]

she can’t be everywhere at once

[serene swift]

i mean she was just chilling when the witness attacked, why not do something then

[prime rover]

oh what

[ember storm]

she can’t 1v1 the witness

if it were that easy she would’ve done it

you think she just decided to let the witness win?

[serene swift]

she could have broken a ship no? or would that just not have helped

[prime rover]

was it just a general suspicion of his ghost that stopped him from letting him cure the hunger then

[ember storm]

judging by the fact there were countless and the witness itself, no

[prime rover]

or did he actually have a real fear that it would do something to him

[ember storm]

and it did take surmountable effort to destroy just one

we aren’t able to damage them, but it’s not like Mara can just snap them all away

[chrome fog]

The Witness also withstood a blast from the Traveler, which destroyed the Pyramid it was in

[ember storm]

he prefers being a normal person to Lightbearer

that includes starving to death

[chrome fog]

No he just didn’t trust it at all despite it wanting to offer him help

[serene swift]

ah alright, thanks for the clarifaction

[prime rover]

so he tolerated the res but literally nothing else?

[chrome fog]

Basically

[ember storm]

it’s not like he could do anything about the rez

[prime rover]

could he not just tell his ghost to like not res him at that point

[ember storm]

ghosts don’t need consent to rez

it did not care

[prime rover]

oh.

it wanted outta the mystery planet and wanted him to drag it off?

[ember storm]

ghosts don’t need an agreement to do anything, they’re their own people

[chrome fog]

His ghost is more so like a concerned parent for him, but knows to give him distance

[ember storm]

he was rezzed on earth

[prime rover]

what

[ember storm]

drifter was rezzed in the dark age

his experience on that ice planet was incredibly recent

[prime rover]

oh we're talking about the first res

[ember storm]

drifter starving to death was an issue on earth

the bigger issue on the other planet was frostbite which a ghost can’t just fix away

[prime rover]

unless they offed themselves the moment they saw it start to take effect i assume

which would probably not help their mental all that well

[chrome fog]

More so any repair would’ve been undone anyway

And they had no Light

[ember storm]

drifter had to get a very specific thing done all at once

he couldn’t be rezzed

[chrome fog]

This was during the Red War, when Ghaul caged the Traveler

[prime rover]

all at once?

[ember storm]

they left before the red war

[prime rover]

wasnt the obj on the ice planet to find out what the thing was and get off?

[ember storm]

you know space travel takes a long ass time right

[outer dragon]

Germaine is a real man

Hard AF and doesn't even

[ember storm]

also they were traversing a whole unknown planet

nothing about it was speedy

[outer dragon]

They left Sol I think

[prime rover]

was that ice planet just an unknown planet with taken occupation or is that one we actually know more about

[ember storm]

we know nothing about it

that’s the whole point

[prime rover]

yeah i guess that works out better

the less mystery the less interesting in these cases

[chrome fog]

If it was outside the heliopause then that could also explain things, our access to the Light is dependent on our proximity to the Traveler; overall anywhere in the Solar System is fine, but our connection weakens a bit (I think)

[ember storm]

pretty sure there’s just pockets of darkness scattered about

it’s not about proximity

[jade rampart]

Were dragons breath and hothead built with the same model?

It looks like they have the same pipes

[prime rover]

a lot of guns share the same model

[gentle geyser]

Its simply model reuse and dragons breath being a d1 exotic adds to this further

[prime rover]

ingame explanation is probably a shared manufacturer

[fiery copper]

No a regular backpack

[chrome fog]

… why would they hid in a regular backpack when they can dissipate from reality

Or hide in orbit

[gentle geyser]

Ghosts just transmit themselves into the destiny content vault

[jade rampart]

Can LLS give strand meditations

Whoops

Wrong channel

[broken zephyr]

how much do we know about Hefnd and Naeem?
like whats the history there

[chrome fog]

Just what we’ve got from the dungeon

[jagged badge]

Shaxx killed Hefnd, Naemm found Hefnd and befriended him, Naemm died to the House of Kings and Hefnd wanted vengeance and shit

[chrome fog]

The method of which was to draw in a bunch of Taken and become their impromptu leader, directing them to kill the House of Kings

[outer dragon]

Do we have confirmation Shaxx is the one who killed Hefnd? Im guessing from the quest that I have yet to finish

Also how do we rectify the fact that Shaxx has the skull at the tower and there is a skull in the dungeon?

[jagged badge]

Who says that skull in the Tower is Hefnd’s?

But also, there’s like several skulls throughout WR iirc

So perhaps Hefnd is like some hydra Ahamkara

[outer dragon]

The only Ahamkara we know for sure he killed is one on Venus

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/grips-of-the-great-hunt

And Shaxx was not a warlord then

[dim minnow]

technically he never stopped being a Warlord

he still holds the title

[jagged badge]

Perhaps you should finish the quest

[outer dragon]

I don't care about spoilers

[outer dragon]

Touche

[jagged badge]

Shaxx killed Hefnd

In fact he seems to imply he was sent to kill a lot of Ahamkara

For the sole fact that he did not want to

Because he did not desire to kill them, they had no desire to feed on when he does kill them, iirc

[dim minnow]

and Shaxx considers them as merely a force of nature

still though, I still think the Great Hunt was justified

just look at the Gardens of Esila incident

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/azirim?highlight=esila

I don't even think they made a wish

Azirim just wanted to pull a fast one

or maybe he just fed on Esila's desire to hear a redemtion story

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/5bE9MS7G958?si=QnY1ZCGmex0K1SjB

[outer dragon]

We do know that the skull in the tower isn't Hefnd because Hefnd's skull is still in the castle

[jagged badge]

Unless

[outer dragon]

[trim grotto]

Hydrahamkara

[dim minnow]

Aquamkara

[jagged badge]

Okay Egg

[quiet light]

whose the coolest person in destiny

[gentle geyser]

Eramis at the very end of beyond lights final mission

[ember storm]

idk ana's skeleton buried in ice was pretty cool

[chrome fog]

When Oryx learned the power of Taking to Take the pronouns “he/him” for himself, that was powerful

[trim grotto]

Arcite and Dahlia. I consider them to be a group package.

[dim minnow]

tough question for me, though Kabr is a good contender

goes out giving us one of our strongest relics, the Aegis

[quiet light]

who the hell is riven, why do this person need riven to grant a wish

[chrome fog]

Watch the Forsaken cutscenes

Also, pretty sure there's dialogue or one of the seasonal armor pieces whose lore tabs explain why we need a wish

Because guess who we need to stop

The Witness

And what's the only way through to the Witness?

The portal on the Traveler that kills anyone trying to pass through it

[dim minnow]

Riven is an Ahamkara

Ahamkara are shapeshifting, wish granting dragons

who are very deceptive

and Riven is the only one left that we can make a wish to

[chrome fog]

Just making sure you also get this, the person asking for a wish is Mara Sov, who's been pretty important to the whole narrative of Destiny and a key ally to us in our battle against the enemies of the Earth and the Traveler

[slim elk]

Addition wrinkle to it: We are the ones who killed her

[dim minnow]

and we destroyed 40 of her eggs

though those ones were corrupted by Taken energy

and theVanguard and Awoken both worked with each other to hunt almost all other Ahamkara to extinction

[slim elk]

Do like they are sorta bringing to the forefront that maras ego is biting her in the ass hard
Reef and City helped each other destroy all the ahamkara.. save for the one mara was keeping for her own exclusive use despite the known risk

[dim minnow]

granted Mara had an actual way to bypass the risk

and her mindset is cracked on a meta level

[slim elk]

Not this time.
Mara already said the reason why.. its not maras wish... its Savathuns

[chrome fog]

Not that it matters because Savathun's wish should still work in our favor; Immaru himself is pissed she puts so much faith in us

Which Mara herself is fully accepting that Savathun is giving us the support for this endeavor, every once in a while you and your enemy will have common cause

What you should've looked more closely at is Riven's Spirit stating it will grant Mara's Innermost Desire, not necessarily grant Savathun's wish

Mara's already been through her brother's death and the entrapment of her people in the Dreaming City's curse, as well as Crow acting as remind to what her ego brought her

#📚lore-discussion message
As much as the lore tab is seemingly Riven tricking Crow into thinking he's in conversation with Mara, much of what we learn about Mara herself aligns with what Riven says wearing her face, it's why it's so convincing until we read the last part

The first dialogue you hear after the intro mission is literally her lamenting her ego

[empty fern]

Another day another small small wall of text from bionicle

[chrome fog]

I am a text dispenser

[empty fern]

A dropped bowl of text

(And it’s one of those big ramen bowls)

[chrome fog]

Oh Nexus, didn't you say you wanted another invite to the Cryptarchy? I don't recall if it was you or someone else

[vapid nymph]

lore

[jagged badge]

What’s that?

[empty fern]

No I still have my own from mael, haven’t joined it yet tho

[chrome fog]

[vapid nymph]

idk i forgor

[exotic cloak]

Rhulk is the strongest enemy we have defeated?

[ember storm]

stupidity and hubris dock points in my book

[chrome fog]

Most physically imposing and supposedly an immense amount of paracausal power, was also a meathead and overly confident

[empty fern]

Ye

I wonder

Do ahamkara
After they are born from eggs
Are they already mature? Do they age in a linear line like normal living things?

[ember storm]

they have to grow and develop

that’s the point of eggs

[chrome fog]

But they're also nonconventional creatures

Who's to say they follow the same gestation and development process as other species that have eggs

[ember storm]

Riven was literally found as a hatchling

[dim minnow]

This is an artist's rendition of what Riven may have looked like when Uldren first gave her to Mara

[exotic cloak]

How powerful we really are? I mean the Young Wolf has put an end to threats of enormous power and has killed 4 gods. Furthermore, I understand that canonically guardians are not limited by energy or classes

[chrome fog]

We are certainly holders of power

Powerscaling isn’t wholly applicable to Destiny on the whole

[exotic cloak]

It's just that we were discussing the strongest characters in video games and I started thinking about how ridiculously powerful the Guardian really is. But since I'm not very up to date with Lore I don't know if we are more limited than it seems

[fallow sky]

I don't think it would be that big of a stretch to say we are the most powerful being on our side of the light and dark conflict

[smoky rose]

The radio message this week was almost so cringey

[fallow sky]

Yea, that was pretty pathetic of shaxx, is he a masochist? i see no other reason for wanting to be close to mara

[smoky rose]

You did not listen to the end did you

It was ||Riven pretending to be shaxx to troll mara||

[fallow sky]

oh shi, ignore all dat

[empty fern]

Uldren pulls riven out of a maroon bag: “make sure to feed it wishes every 3 nights or your city may have DIRE CONSEQUENCES”

[tawdry mauve]

crunch

[serene swift]

||riven has just been meming around this season||

[gentle geyser]

I mean we literally killed her so she has every right

Thats what I would do if I was a ghost speaking from the afterlife

[empty fern]

Ghost mom trolls guardians as they collect her batch of eggs

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-meme-aardman-the-pirates-pirate-gif-26563702

[gentle geyser]

That is a bit of a stretch

At the end of the day, guardians still are human/humanoid so they inherently are limited in multiple ways

As well, stuff like raid bosses and dungeons bosses require outside interaction or some additional level of damage that the guardian can’t just do

[exotic cloak]

Well Rhulk

[gentle geyser]

We ganged up on rhulk

[exotic cloak]

And Savathun?

[gentle geyser]

Thats just because shes mid at fighting and clearly lacks the mindset to actually use the light effectively

[exotic cloak]

😔

Skill issue

[gentle geyser]

The reason why the player is so strong is because we are the player, the guardians at the end of the day without their ghosts are glass cannons

[tawdry mauve]

what

[gentle geyser]

Its simple really

[tawdry mauve]

wdym guardians without their ghost?

if they dont have a ghost they cant really be a guardian/lightbearer

[gentle geyser]

Look at caydes death

[tawdry mauve]

you lose your ghost

you are no different than a regular human

[gentle geyser]

Doesn’t matter how good a guardian is, they still can lose, as well the no light mechanic

[tawdry mauve]

well yes

thats how wiping works

[gentle geyser]

The no light mechanic is a very clear sign ghat they can die

[tawdry mauve]

darkness zones are naratively a real thing

we can see that in the imperial needle lore tab

its just your phrasing made it seem like we were the only guardian with a ghost lol

[analog torrent]

TIL (ik it's old news) Drifter's alias "Wu Ming" means nameless/anonymous

[chrome fog]

We've killed many things which were humanoid and purported to be more powerful, this point is moot

Humanoid just means human shaped

[chrome fog]

And this is still applicable to the player, we're just relatively more cautious about our ghost being out in the open despite in-game our Ghost hovering the point where we just died.

[exotic cloak]

The Guardian is not supposed to be superior to normal versions of its species?

So an exo guardian or a human guardian is not superior to a normal human/exo?

[jagged badge]

Well, not exactly

[tawdry mauve]

yes

there are differences

but i mean in terms of combat

[fallow sky]

I meant on our side, not counting enemies

[chrome fog]

They're all variations of humans ressurected by the Ghosts, there's no real difference

[chrome fog]

Osiris and Saint's feats still have yet to be beaten, holding all 6 fronts surrounding the City of the Battle on Six Fronts with simulated copies of himself all while multicasting multiple different subclass supers; and slaughtering Vex so effectively that even with their Light removed and Ghost killed they had to sacrifice more units to try and stop him and enshrined him for how many of their kind he killed, respectively

[chrome fog]

Yes the average human sligning fireballs

[fallow sky]

That all sounds great, but how many gods have they killed?

[sleek matrix]

eris brought on the destruction of hive

she is

[chrome fog]

We had to be aimed towards our targets to strategically weaken every one of our opponents; which isn't a bad thing, but also we're not solely responsible for our feats, they're all group efforts

[chrome fog]

Even then she had assistance from us, Ahsa, and all of the stagnant Tithe Savathun was holding

Also Shaxx has been sent to kill multiple ahamkara when it took 6 guardians to kill the last one

[sleek matrix]

but without eris we wouldnt have been able to do it

[chrome fog]

Yes that is my point, it isn't solely her own efforts, it's all collaborative

[sleek matrix]

even so her knowledge on the hive is vital

hive gods been around for millions of years

[chrome fog]

No shit, but also consider the fact she had been depending on our collection of Tithe as well as Ahsa to process and direct all the Tithe to her

Again

[fallow sky]

I don't think the fact that we were aimed at them makes our feats any less impressive, also if they are so strong why are we the ones getting sent to do all the important stuff?

[chrome fog]

Point is the Guardian is put at the head of these efforts, but they aren't without significant support from others and with tactical crippling of enemy forces

Which is why powerscaling is a non-topic in Destiny

We're pretty powerful, only within the 90th percentile of guardians can wield multiple subclasses

[fallow sky]

Thats a fair point, still hold the belief that we are the strongest guardian because my ego demands it

[chrome fog]

The community makes it harder and harder every time to enjoy the lore

[fallow sky]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-backflip-cute-dog-funny-dog-dog-backflip-gif-13984399598661118677

[fallow sky]

look at this dog doing a backflip

[chrome fog]

No

[fallow sky]

Its so cool tho

[chrome fog]

I do not know you, we are not close

[exotic cloak]

Now this is an important piece in Destiny's Lore

[chrome fog]

Move on

[grand sky]

The answer is luck and friendship btw. The guardian has many allies and is often in the right place and right time

[chrome fog]

That is true

[exotic cloak]

I was having a discussion about powerful video game characters but now

Well my theory was destroyed

[chrome fog]

Kinda the point of paracausality

[exotic cloak]

I mean I was arguing with people defending Young Wolf as one of the most powerful people in video games because of his various abilities, experience and having killed 4 gods. But seeing it now, well

[chrome fog]

To make it so anyone could come out on top, with the debate being whether this power will be used for good or bad

[exotic cloak]

[chrome fog]

People will keep stating that Unveiling doesn't matter because it's from the Witness, but it also very clearly displays the perspective the Witness holds and the one we are supposed to represent; like majority of everything in Destiny, it's us as representatives of self-definition, of making our own meaning for life regardless of the inherent meaninglessness of existence, vs very nihilistic forces who subscribe to a very cynical and painfully simplistic mindset that all must prove their worth, that there is on universal definition to living instead of the complex possibilities no inherent meaning provides us

Definitely something sketch with the account of the creation of the universe, but very clearly it's presenting a dichotemy between our cause and our true enemies' cause

The most dangerous thing about the Witness is how enticing and persuasive their argument for letting them win is, it's the easiest option to think life is meaningless and letting someone else define how you live, especially with how simple the Sword Logic is

[main parcel]

Hi folks. A general question - what are the best places (other than this channel ofc) for exploring Destiny lore?

[chrome fog]

This would be the best for clear explanations, but we do have a list of some sources

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[tawdry mauve]

probably the ishtar collective

[chrome fog]

This is my explanation for the various sources we have in that shortcut, could help narrow which source you want to read on
#📚lore-discussion message

[main parcel]

Thanks 🙂

[chrome fog]

[analog torrent]

So... Shaxx/Mara confirmed? "The helmet stayed on" was a joke/not what the community memes it as and this was just Riven trolling, but why would she make him say that?
For the record, Mara/Sjur endgame, ik

[dim minnow]

The meeting was just them reminiscing over Sjur who was a mutual friend

[chrome fog]

One of Byf’s byfisms

[analog torrent]

Yeah
Why did Riven choose to mimic Shaxx this radio message tho

Out of everyone

[chrome fog]

He’d be relevant to the Ahamkara spirit we put to rest in the dungeon, plus more picking on Mara which seems to be her thing this season

[analog torrent]

ah right the dungeon

did Shaxx come up in any of the lore? All I know is that there was a female warlord who befriended the Ahamkara

[chrome fog]

Shaxx killed that Ahamkara, the warlord befriended it after the fact, as she has come upon the place after running away from Old Russia and her old history as a warlord

Asked the Ahamkara for its kindness, and it obliged; then House of Kings rolled in a took over the keep, killing the Warlord, and an angering the Ahamkara spirit

It basically got a bunch of Taken and ordered them to take out the House, mimicking a Chimera to lead them

I think he’s more involved when you do the quest

[empty fern]

How tragically wholesome

[worldly edge]

I think Riven might be how Cayde & possibly other characters return in TFS ooooooor because the lake heart looks like a place twisted between past and present Cayde & others may return sort of like sentient memories

Pale Heart*

[orchid lance]

Hello

[worldly edge]

Crow did have a line if dialog saying he wishes he could undo the damage Uldren did

[orchid lance]

Imagine Cayde-6 meeting crow on the final shape

[worldly edge]

He very likely will. Crow is essentially the new hunter vanguard

[jagged badge]

Brandon O’Neill did tease this

[worldly edge]

@jagged badge link?

[orchid lance]

I think Cayde-6 would just shoot him first

And then crow's ghost would revive him

And ikora and zavala would lecture him

[worldly edge]

I think without context and they run into each other at random most likely. But I feel like Ikora and Zavala and going to explain what happened and then introduce them

[orchid lance]

True

But if the lecture doesn't happen in time

Then Cayde-6 would beat crow up

[jagged badge]

https://vxtwitter.com/brandon_onei11/status/1661996757390336000?s=46&t=qJ8b5Jx522rkNBkKGl2ySw

[orchid lance]

As in beat the light out of him

But press f to to pay respect for Cayde-6

[worldly edge]

I think Caydes final arc will be forgiveness. I think through TFS Cayde will be unsure about Crow but help because of Ikora and Zavala. I assume there will be a point where it comes full circle. Cayde will be on the ground moments from death and Crow will kill the being that was about to kill Cayde, and if they want a little sugar on top they have Crow save Cayde using Ace

[chrome fog]

Riven is how we get into the portal

[gentle geyser]

I highly doubt riven cares about cayde

[chrome fog]

We already theorize that Cayde is some sort of cleansed Nightmare/Memory a la Haunted (made by Darkness), and his physical form as was last seen formed around said memory by the Light

[chrome fog]

She did as it set us on our path to really wanting to kill her

[gentle geyser]

I think cayde because of this will remain in the traveler and won’t be able to leave

[chrome fog]

I mean obviously not now, there’s no relevance

[chrome fog]

Obviously; they already describe the place beyond the portal as one fill of Light and Darkness, to a greater extent than the regular universe where Light and Darkness are universally present, but not everything is paracausal in nature

[gentle geyser]

So yeah cayde will most likely not be able to return

[chrome fog]

He’ll be a vendor for the destination most likely

[gentle geyser]

Hunters when the hunter vanguard gets brought back only to be a destination vender

[chrome fog]

They’d be fucking cheering, Zavala has been a vendor since forever and Ikora only recently got vendor status but it’s only when new subclass tweaks are made

[gentle geyser]

Personally I still wonder if crow could even become a hunter vanguard

Kinda want that to happen

[chrome fog]

Most likely, he does most of the organizing of the Hunters and actually sits down with the Vanguard heads when stuff is being done

He’s been the most responsible Hunter leader we’ve seen in a while, Shiro and Shaw Han also being notable but less prominent

Shaw Han’s busy with the blueberries tho and Shiro-4’s doing smth else

[worldly edge]

@chrome fog @gentle geyser not that riven cares about Cayde but IF Crow somehow manages to be the one to cast this wish to riven upon the seasons completion that would allow not only access into the Pale Heart but also undo the damage Uldren Sov did, restoring the dreaming city, reviving Cayde (to a degree) stuff like that.

[chrome fog]

@worldly edge That would 1) get rid of a destination with a set three week cycle, of which activities and triumphs are tied into said cycle - Raid and Dungeon included - 2) grandfather paradox himself out of existence because we wouldn't have killed him in revenge, 3) additional to the first point, the fact that existing but reworked activities in the Dreaming City are part of the weekly missions leaves little credence to him wishing for a reset of all Uldren had done, 4) the whole lesson with the Nightmare and subsequently the Memory of Uldren back in Haunted is that Crow could learn from Uldren's mistakes, that he shouldn't allow himself to be weighed down by the past, and 5) Riven's bargin was with Mara specifically, she's most definitely going to twist it sure but she did clarify it's a deal between her and Mara

[worldly edge]

Not reset. Undo. Release the curse and bring back those he killed.

[chrome fog]

Basically the same thing

[worldly edge]

Keep everything else in tact

Not the same thing. Think about it like the snap in avengers endgame

[chrome fog]

Regardless, with that phrasing, Riven would be likely to do exactly what I listed out

And that's not even what we're asking for in return for finding her clutch of eggs

[worldly edge]

Not us.

[chrome fog]

We're trying to get through to the other side of the portal

[chrome fog]

Again. She only has a deal with Mara.

[worldly edge]

And savathun

And who's to say not others in the near future

[chrome fog]

Mara's request was that she fulfill Savathun's Last Wish, it's the same thing

And it's still not going to happen, as we can see Petra and the corsairs still present in the Dreaming City destination

Same reason Eris returned from being a Hive God because she's normal on the Moon

Same reason why Amanda was slated to die when she was removed as a vendor from the Hangar

[candid owl]

So who's the woman that Mara and Riven allude to in this week's radio message in the helm?

[jagged badge]

Sjur Eido, Mara’s partner

She’s…dead but also not?

I dunno, people theorise she’s gonna return someday

[ember storm]

Wario coming back as a guardian

discuss

[rare harbor]

Wah

[worldly river]

I'm surprised Bungie was able to make Riven have such... Human anger this season

She's this grand paracausal wish dragon speaking to us from beyond the grave but on top of her Ahamkara tendencies to try to provoke us into wishes she's clearly just really angry because we killed her and, as far as she can tell, Mara's jerking her about and hid her eggs

She doesn't trust us and frankly she probably shouldn't, and Mara is the only readily apparent suspect

Unrelated but I swear I could hear Osiris's VA trying not to laugh while delivering the "electromagnetic language that resonates with our minds" line

My immediate thought was "that sentence was ridiculous" and it seems like the VA agreed lmao

[chrome fog]

I think it also further develops the Ahamkara beyond their inherent need to exploit those seeking their wishes, especially in conjunction with the new dungeon; again I wonder how long they’ve been around and are they aware how their existence is only seen as exploitative by the rest of sentient life, to the point that their cynicism has turned their intentions actively malicious?

[chrome fog]

The poetry is so heavy handed I can’t blame him, though in polite terms I think he’s just trying to study Darkness in a more holistic approach, since the Witness is no longer present to muck things up

[smoky rose]

It’s like the command and conquer line

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/minnmax-command-and-conquer-minnmax-minnmax-red-alert-red-alert-minnmax-minnmax-command-and-conquer-gif-27627046

No wait

Man screw tenor, it shouldn’t be this hard to get gifs

[little gorge]

his va generally didn't sound that good this week

[outer dragon]

Do we have any lore reasons why Titans do not have an Ahamkara bone armor?

[little gorge]

almost like they only did 1 take for whatever reason

[outer dragon]

Probably because they layed off the second take

[little gorge]

well riven definitely does

[paper gorge]

what exotic armour piece looks so ugly that makes you want to buy an ornament for it ?

[chrome fog]

Probably one that could be discussed in #👗destiny-fashion

[paper gorge]

oh shit

[exotic cloak]

Is there some canon reason why Titans don't have exotics related to ahamkara

[jagged badge]

Probably because generally Titans are smart enough and cautious enough to not wear the bones that whisper to you and try and manipulate you and shit

Whereas Hunters are just daring like that and Warlocks are probably too curious

Generally

[trim grotto]

Timtam body too thick for tiny bone
Silly bone break, but Tintin never break, too stronge

[dim minnow]

I wouldn't consider it a matter of Titans being too smart

I'd consider it a matter of Titans being too loyal to the City to wear them

recall that Titans were the main force of Guardians who fought in Six Fronts

and maybe Twilight Gap, but there are known Hunters and Warlocks who were there

in fact, Osiris was at Six Fronts too

[jagged badge]

Oh yeah

[dim minnow]

if Titans were ordered not to mess with Ahamkara Bones, chances are they would more often than not follow that order

[exotic cloak]

Well, it makes sense

I guess I arrive several years late but in one of the ascendan challenges you can see the bones of an ahamkara

They looked quite similar to the ones on the Hunter exotic but I have no idea

[dim minnow]

are they the ones you can pick up?

[exotic cloak]

I think so, it's in the sword and knights challenge

[dim minnow]

there were several of those scattered throughout the Dreaming City and collecting them gave you lore pages back in the day

Awoken actually lived alongside Ahamkara for a while

then the great hunt came and Mara decided to help the Vanguard with it while secretly keeping Riven imprisoned within Dreamtown

[exotic cloak]

In the in-game books is the story of the Ahamkara or do I have to see things from Destiny 1?

I'm still curious about why wiping out their entire species

[dim minnow]

a loy of the Ahamkara lore can be seen in D2, but I would recommend going to Ishtar Collective

it is an online archive of almost all Destiny lore

including D1 lore entries

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[dim minnow]

basically, Ahamkara are rat bastards

you see, Ahamkara feed off of desire and the "chaos" generated by their wishes

and they mess with your wish to generate more chaos

so they can feed more while also screwing you over

and in general, they are rat bastards as I have said

case-in-poin: Azirim

in the Gardens of Esila, an Ahamkara named Azirim did some no-good in the past, but claimed that he wanted to atone for it

so he began to sing about his good deeds while entrancing Esila and about 20 others with his song

[exotic cloak]

It's basically like the genie in the lamp granting your wish in the worst way possible?

[dim minnow]

as a result, all of them were led off of a cliff to their own deaths

and Azirim got away laughing about it

[dim minnow]

something like it

even when raising Ahamkara from a young age doesn't help

at first they will be nice, but eventually they will grow to be deceptive

[exotic cloak]

Oh, I remember before having a discussion about the morality of the traveler and someone talked about massacring the Ahamkara but seeing this

[dim minnow]

when it comes to Traveler morality, one thing must be known

the Traveler is benevolent

to a fault at times

[exotic cloak]

The discussion was more along the lines

That the traveler supported humanity despite humanity's morality

And they used the massacre of the Ahamkara, Eliksni and Hive as an argument

That's why I wanted to read about it because I doubt there weren't good reasons

[jagged badge]

Well the Eliksni and Hive were the aggressors trying to wipe humanity out so

For one

[exotic cloak]

The Eliksni thing confuses me because in the New Light mission they tell you that they are literally space refugees trying to survive

At what point does a group of space immigrants decide to attack humanity

[jagged badge]

The Dark Age

[exotic cloak]

I have to read a lot of things

[jagged badge]

They come to Earth chasing the Traveler and attacked humanity in jealousy I guess

[exotic cloak]

[jagged badge]

By that point the Eliksni had devolved into scavengers and pirates and shit already

Not the gentle race they once were

[exotic cloak]

I guess they run out of goodness after seeing their civilization destroyed

BL was a good opportunity to give more of their point of view but I still find the campaign quite disappointing

[jagged badge]

If you wanna read about the Long Drift, I can link you the lore book from Plunder

[exotic cloak]

I would appreciate that

By the way I have to read the Gambit stuff but the stories in Gambit's armor are super cool

I love Drifter more now

One question, the armor I'm referring to are the classic ones, I don't know what number they are but they are the ones that appear on the Gambit insignia. One mentions a rather cold planet and a place where the ghost couldn't revive the guardians

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-above-all-else?highlight=Above+all+else

[exotic cloak]

Any idea if that place was Europa and the pyramid?

[jagged badge]

It wasn’t Europa

I’m pretty sure it was beyond Sol? Or very nearly at least

[dim minnow]

according to Calus it was an Athenaeum World (worlds where Cabal store powerful weapons, knowledge, etc.)

but the source for that is literal in-universe fanfiction so it isn't a good idea to trust it

[exotic cloak]

I'm curious, is there a timeline as such in the campaigns?

Or we literally wiped out the house of salvation in a week

[chrome fog]

The Ahamkara and the Awoken had a majority of their lore elaborated on in D2, so don't worry about D1

[dim minnow]

exact timeframes for how long DLC campaigns happen in is never really specified

Lightfall's seems to happen over a pretty short amount of time, but Red War happened over several weeks canonically

[chrome fog]

The trend has been that they generally parallel the same time passing as in real life, which also means almost all important events happen on Tuesday

[dim minnow]

and the events that don't are things that released on other days

like Red War starting on a Wednesday

or most dungeon/raid releases

Crown of Sorrow is the only raid I know of that released on a Tuesday

and Prophecy is the only Tuesday released dungeon too as far as I know

ok no wait, maybe Shattered Throne and Pit of Heresy too

I don't really remember

[exotic cloak]

Now my headcanon is that the house of salvation was so useless that the guardian defeated them in 24 hours or less

And thanks

[dim minnow]

legit all Eramis had to do was ignore the Pyramids

none of us had any idea Riis Reborn was even there

until Variks' distress message reached us and he explained everything

[exotic cloak]

Even with that, the way they act seems very ridiculous to me

One by one facing you, you can literally enter their secret lair and slaughter them without any limitations

They don't command respect like the lucid hive did after

[dim minnow]

the entire campaign was just Eramis' situation getting progressively worse

[gentle geyser]

The fallen constantly take Ls

I just want fallen to take a W or start using darkness subclass powers or something please give them some kind of W

[dim minnow]

first we find out about her operation, then we kill off Phylaks, then Praksis, then we stop her attempts at reaching out to Dusk, then she loses it and unleashes the Vex on Riis Reborn, and finally we defeat her

realistically what can the Fallen do to be a major threat now?

[exotic cloak]

Her first mistake was letting Filaks by her own

And even that was justifiable

But then the technocrat and Kridis

[gentle geyser]

Beyond light shouldve given us fallen using stasis as an actual enemy, plus an old concept art image had a mini servitor that could be a knockoff ghost

[dim minnow]

Eramis is pretty much leaving, Xivu Arath got screwed over hard, House of Dusk is House of Dusk

[exotic cloak]

They were reduced to dust

[gentle geyser]

It really is wild how hard the fallen get shafted

[dim minnow]

hell Plunder was mainly us getting rid of whoever Houseless ones were left (The Old Crews)

[gentle geyser]

Meanwhile bungy on their way to kill off Crotas step brother nephew

[exotic cloak]

Someone told me that the vanguard had a kind of Ghost division without guardians who were dedicated to espionage

[chrome fog]

Mostly because at this time as well, majority of House Salvation were remnants of the other Houses we had wiped out who weren't combatants, they were followed Eramis under the promise that she would reestablish Eliksni society, actually succeeding to an extent because we literally enter a new Riis

[dim minnow]

yeah, it was a network

[exotic cloak]

It would be cool if any of these Ghosts were given to Eliksni and Cabal

[dim minnow]

I forgot what they were called

ok, "spectral network"

[gentle geyser]

I want fallen light barers, even just darkness bareing fallen

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-watchful-eye?

[gentle geyser]

I want just one big fallen W

They need a win

[chrome fog]

Devils, Wolves, and whoever else was present in D1 were basically the major attackers out of the Eliksni factions, and whoever survived either rallied with House Dusk - essentially just a bunch of scavengers - or House Salvation, where at least Eramis promised their former society would be built

[exotic cloak]

A DLC concept where all our enemies get the light, not just the hive, would be pretty cool

Although I imagine justifying that would be difficult

[chrome fog]

When it soon became clear that Eramis was more so chasing revenge against the Traveler for abandoning Riis even at the risk of her own people, many eliksni fled - it's one of the public events even - and joined Misraaks' House Light

[exotic cloak]

Even so, the whole way of proceeding of the house of salvation is too stupid

[gentle geyser]

The fallen absolutely should have gotten stasis or an enemy type like the lucent moths

[exotic cloak]

Which is especially criticizable considering that Filaks and the technocrat are experts

[dim minnow]

Phylaks

[exotic cloak]

I always forget his name

😔

He was the coolest of Eramis' lieutenants

Until Atraks appeared

[chrome fog]

Not if you follow the history. I think it's fine for the Eliksni, they're more a grounded threat against us compared to the Hive, and the Cabal only have war going on for them, though Caital's rule has introduced nice interweaving with other races

Their peak threat before Stasis had been getting ahold of SIVA, the trend being they

[dim minnow]

Phylaks is female

[exotic cloak]

I mean, think Eramis didn't hand out the power of stasis, she let her lieutenants fight us one bynone

[exotic cloak]

Wait what

Someone right here told me she was a man

[dim minnow]

are you thinking of Praksis?

[exotic cloak]

The technocrat

[dim minnow]

yes

that is Praksis

[exotic cloak]

oh wait

[chrome fog]

You literally fight mini-bosses wielding of Stasis throughout the campaign, plus what would be the use of Stasis for anyone who isn't a combatant

[exotic cloak]

Oh sorry, I thought you were telling me the name, not that you corrected me how to write the name of phylaks

[gentle geyser]

We should’ve gotten stasis fallen as a consistent enemy type

[dim minnow]

Praksis - Technocrat
Phylaks - Warrior
Kridis - High Priestess
Bakris - Adamantine
Atraks - The Wildcard (lore-wise she was a propaganda source)
Taniks - The ~~Abomination ~~Scarred

[exotic cloak]

In the campaign you face a few yes but they don't do anything spectacular, not even the heads of the empire hunts

[dim minnow]

Kridis had a unique melee attack though

where she creates Stasis swords and attacks you with them

[exotic cloak]

They all act the same, they don't do anything different and it would be logical for Eramis to give that power to everyone.

Oh yeah

I went through the BL campaign again and I didn't remember her being so complicated

[gentle geyser]

That’s because bungy hate the fallen apparently

[exotic cloak]

It was more difficult to beat her than Eramis

[exotic cloak]

She didn't activate the crypt beforehand, her lair is exposed

The prudent thing in the 1st minute would have been to dig in and wake up Taniks

Even with the defeat of Phylaks first proving that the guardian can overcome stasis and use it at the same time

Everything that she does or let hapoen after Phylaks is simply incompetence

[exotic cloak]

Someday we will have Fallen lightbearer, someday...

If the game doesn't die first of course

[gentle geyser]

The least they could do is give us actually accurate fallen armor

[trim grotto]

I get the feeling you're a fan of Fallen, somehow

[gentle geyser]

Yea

I voice my issues with fallen Ls a lot

[ember storm]

she was unable because one of the first things we did was kill the person responsible for making the stasis tech

[gentle geyser]

Stop making excuses for something that the devs clearly did themselves

[ember storm]

what excuses

[gentle geyser]

The fallen barely used stasis because the devs didn’t want to give them it

[ember storm]

you honestly want to fight an entire faction exclusively using stasis?

that's moronic

[gentle geyser]

They easily could’ve changed the moves

[ember storm]

literally every campaign mission had stasis fallen

[gentle geyser]

Last boss that did the same things each time and never show up again afterwards

[ember storm]

every single campaign boss and miniboss had stasis

you know the giant captain using stasis in glassway?

[gentle geyser]

🤡

[ember storm]

they were all over

there was even the one in the cosmodrome patrol, bakris

[gentle geyser]

Regardless of what you say, bungie actively screws over the fallen both gameplay wise and lore wise

I am not reading anything else you post

[ember storm]

you'll be doing both of us a favor then

anyway, doghives

[chrome fog]

I've already had a discussion with someone else about why it wouldn't be very likely for regular human citizens to start wielding Stasis or Strand despite how technically accessible Darkness is to mortal beings, that also applies to the Eliksni especially in the way under Eramis' ward they were basically living in Soviety Russia or the Chinese Republic of the People, in that they were put to work doing textile work or manufacture while the military lived in a quality of life above the citizentry. What use would Stasis have for weaving fabrics out of Eliksni hatchling shells? What use would Stasis have for mothers and fathers who aren't even combatants? What use would Stasis have for children who don't even know to fight and kill those who aren't them, because of events that occurred millennia before them?

[ember storm]

let's talk about doghives

at some point i'm going to try making an artistic interpretation of a doghive

i want some ideas

what do you envision a doghive as

i know we have the reddit comment explaining but i want your take on their appearance

[chrome fog]

Yes, it's a development choice, because it's also a narrative choice; a pretty significant portion of the Beyond Light conflict is that there is a divide between the Eliksni, those who still hold animosity towards the Traveler and all species she gives her favor towards, and those who are tired and want to live a life without being stuck in the abusive society that had been built in their wandering throughout the stars

[chrome fog]

I swear I've seen unrelated art of a dog beehive waaaaay in the past but it's lost on me where it's from

I could do a sketch but I wanna see if google will show me what I remember

Nope google has failed me, lemme sketch

Waltz waddaya think

[ember storm]

not as horrifying as i'd have made it

it's the fact that the dog is meant to be able to grab an entire honeycomb from its body to give to you that gets me

where's the combs located? how do they regenerate? how do the bees feel? are the bees born there or are they introduced later?

[chrome fog]

Tbf it’s late and even with time I don’t think it’d be worth the effort making a horrifically realistic rendition, but also it’s nice for something to just be cute

[ember storm]

if it's something clovis bray thinks is a good birthday present i would bet it's not cute, tbh

[chrome fog]

Hol up I wanna sketch a theory for how this’d work

Dammit waltz I have a psychology course final exam to study for

Now I'm on this

[ember storm]

clovis bray would fall under completely fabricated corporate "cuteness"

like uh

the unicorn doll that shits

[chrome fog]

What?

[ember storm]

critikal made a video about it once

he punched himself trying to open the packaging

[chrome fog]

You mean that pony from Border lands?

[ember storm]

no

[chrome fog]

No wait that could be anything now

[ember storm]

this is a real children's toy

[chrome fog]

I feel like I’ve seen a kid’s toy also make adorable shits and have it marketed as such

[chrome fog]

Oh god

Oh god why does it have human baby proportions but all hooves for its extremities

I am horrified and saddened by this toy

[ember storm]

doghives really feel like a horrifying 2000s kid toy commercial

but the fact they're genetically modified actual organisms is what gets me

also like you can choose what breed you want?

assuming it's a wide variety you could even get like a pug if you wanted

[trim grotto]

what the fuck have i tuned back in to waltz

[chrome fog]

Doghive

I’m also doing artistic renderings

[exotic cloak]

Yeah, and that was stupid

[chrome fog]

We get it y’all wanted more Stasis enemies

We’re on dog-hives now

[exotic cloak]

Not for those, which also

I insist that Praksis' death was simply too reckless

[chrome fog]

Too bad, we went on a slaughter for all of Eramis’ cabinet

[ember storm]

it's the exact same strategy guardians have employed for years

why would it ever be different

[exotic cloak]

Praksis decided to go head to head with us despite being aware of the threat we were and that we had already defeated Phylaks.

[ember storm]

as every single enemy we've fought has?

what's your point

he was a young nerd who literally openly admitted Eramis wouldn't allow him to run away

did you just

forget about that part

[chrome fog]

If it worked for the literal pantheon for another species’ God, what makes you think refugees wielding Stasis to a lesser degree than were capable of would stand a chance?

[ember storm]

there's nothing stating Praksis was like the smartest tactician to ever live

[exotic cloak]

I do not speak on behalf of the guardian, I speak on behalf of the technocrat. He decided to face a threat that had previously defeated a teammate of his.

He is supposed to be an intelligent character but he put himself on a plate

[chrome fog]

Not to mention our practice with wielding Paracausality and our revived meant we’d be more well versed in using Stasis against any of House Salvation

[ember storm]

we literally hunted him down and gave him no way to escape

what was he supposed to do?

open a rift in spacetime and stay out of reality until we got bored and left?

he says directly that eramis doesn't permit failure

he had to fight us

you're getting surprisingly caught up on an entirely inconsequential 3rd mission campaign boss

at least get upset about one of Crota's generals or something

[exotic cloak]

I understand what you want to tell me but the whole way of proceeding is simply too stupid for me, he is alone, even though he knows the level of threat we are

The fact that he is in BrayTech separately is already a problem considering the situation he is in

[ember storm]

i don't know how to convey to you that the smart character characterized as egotistical would definitely decide to fight us directly

[exotic cloak]

Eramis and her lieutenants lost because they fought separately against us

[ember storm]

he's never once mentioned to be elusive, cowardly, or even tactically smart

he's just tech smart

something majority of fallen are

you know what we did to majority of fallen?

shoot and kill them

[chrome fog]

He’s also fuck mad at us like Eramis because we got the Light while the Eliksni got abandoned. None of her lieutenants were going to leave the Guardian alone, especially since they’ve been responsible for a majority of their leaders dying in recent times

Literally all of them have it out for us, that’s why Eramis considered them close friends in the first place

[ember storm]

the entire point of house salvation is rallying to fight guardians

[chrome fog]

And make Eliksni great again

[ember storm]

why would any of them run away and hide when we're romping through their teritory

[exotic cloak]

You convinced me, and that's the problem, that he is a stupid enemy. He does not feel like a threat and acts completely recklessly

[ember storm]

he's not meant to be a threat

[exotic cloak]

The House of Salvation is an enemy that I personally did not take seriously and that we probably defeated in a matter of days

[chrome fog]

Well that’s just how you interpret it. Regardless, he’s dead because he ran into us.

[ember storm]

he's one of many, many cardboard cutout bosses to shoot at

praksis was never important

[chrome fog]

Save for getting to Eramis

[ember storm]

he's literally not mentioned by name until before variks tells you to kill him

he's not important and never was

[exotic cloak]

Yeah, that's another problem

It's a poor faction, That is my complaint, I am aware that as stated their actions make sense

[ember storm]

he got more than almost any campaign boss got

[chrome fog]

If you say it’s disappointing he wasn’t more important, you’re fooling yourself into thinking it’s feasible to make every single boss memorable and significant

[exotic cloak]

That doesn't make them better

[ember storm]

that being basic characterization through voice acting

that's all the importance he's ever going to get

[chrome fog]

That’s the whole point, they’re all basically refugees with a few of them being heavily armed

[ember storm]

he was literally just used as a tiny stepping stone for eramis' character arc during seraph when he was brought back as scorn

i honestly don't know what else to say about the matter

the salvation barons weren't meant to be hugely impactful

they were there and had their 10-20 minutes of stage presence

then they exited stage right

[exotic cloak]

Guys you are thinking too much about it. I don't like the House of Salvation, it seems like a faction that acts stupidly, that is poorly developed and that is neither scary nor respectful

They don't seem like a threat worth facing. I already know that in the game all his actions are logical and justified and that the way the campaign occurs makes sense, and that is my problem

[chrome fog]

House Salvation’s significance is them pulling a Castro and suddenly being in possession of dangerous force which could threaten anyone

[exotic cloak]

This useless and pathetic enemy is the main villain

[chrome fog]

Then why do you need to continue on about it

[exotic cloak]

I am not talking about Praksis, I am talking about the entire house of salvation

[chrome fog]

Then that’s just you

[ember storm]

you didn't make that clear whatsoever

[exotic cloak]

[exotic cloak]

I'm doing it now

[chrome fog]

Not really needing to convince any of us of that because we also know that, literally what was the point

The fact that the possibility of wielding Darkness for ourselves took up about an equal portion of the narrative points to how their threat isn’t quite as major, though it is still a threat

[exotic cloak]

My first comment was that Praksis's death was too reckless, that's It, now I see that it makes more sense. The rest of the pathetic elements of the house of salvation were already clear to me but I saw the technocrat as someone smart, that's It

[chrome fog]

Then why waste our time

[ember storm]

i'm staying up past my bedtime for this

[exotic cloak]

Thanks for the explanation

[chrome fog]

What, an explanation for your opinion?

[exotic cloak]

now you are the one who is continuing it

I didn't see Praksis as someone stupid, now I see it, done, thanks for explaining it

[chrome fog]

There’s more to it than that but sure, take that from this

Anyways doghives

[chrome fog]

Maybe it’d be like this?

I hate iPhone

[ember storm]

the dog being a cyborg is an unexpected twist

but then i ask is it really the hive itself?

[chrome fog]

Could also be that it naturally constructs a resin apiary within itself

[ember storm]

wait does wooden mechanisms count as cybernetics

[chrome fog]

Maybe it’s genetically modified to have a hollowed middle and survive, then the beehive is affixed to it

[ember storm]

anyway this is definitely the main reference pic i'll use for making my version

first thing that popped into my head

[chrome fog]

That's a good reference

More horrifically, could be that the doghive naturally secrets wax about its middle and then specially bred bees recognize the wax as building material

Maybe bee-ant hybrids to add further convolution to Clovis' odd project

[empty fern]

What in the what

[chrome fog]

Beehives

[lofty heron]

I have a lore question

When a ghost is not its shell but the light inside it, why does the ghost expose its weakest part when reviving ?

[ember storm]

the shell is still part of the ghost

also that’s just how it is

if a ghost is stationary reviving someone the shell wouldn’t matter

a solid hit will kill regardless

paracausal force is just a guaranteed 1 shot

normal force can still kill

[prime rover]

can they not revive someone without sitting still and doing the expanding thing

[ember storm]

they literally have to be right there to revive

they’re incapable of moving away or else the rez doesn’t go through

this is why fireteams are a thing

[prime rover]

isn't the revive like some sort of pulling from alternate realities where the guardian in question survived whatever killed them

[ember storm]

that’s not a thing

[prime rover]

does it really need the corpse to do it

[ember storm]

that was just a theory that FWC threw out

[prime rover]

oh

[ember storm]

and yes the corpse needs to exist

the only exception is complete disintegration but the ghost still needs to be stationary and be wherever they last were

[prime rover]

is the stationary thing completely non negotiable

like is the res on where they last died or the body

[outer dragon]

We don't know the exact mechanism for revival

[outer dragon]

No it doesn't

I know you mentioned disintegrations though

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-rez-for-the-weary
They don't need the body for guardians that jumped into the methane seas on Titan without diving gear or into the vacuum of space without EV gear to rez them safely on the Arcology or in their ship

[trim grotto]

The theory provided by the FWC is that the Ghost unconsciously searches other timelines for a version of you that is still alive, and uses that version as a blueprint to copy from.
Nobody is stolen from other realities.

[neat vigil]

I'm very interested to hear what people think about Retrofuturist lore tab, it could mean so many things

[dim minnow]

about that

the lore tab is old

from Season of the Splicer

[neat vigil]

aw really?

[dim minnow]

yeah

we already got the reveal that Savathun possessed Osiris

then Osiris was in a coma for a while

[neat vigil]

Damn thats a little dissapointing, i almost thought it was an Ahamkara in disguse.

[dim minnow]

until Plunder where Mithrax used Nezcafe to wake Osiris up

[neat vigil]

yup, makes sense its savathun

[dim minnow]

you know what happened right?

or are you gonna need some context?

[neat vigil]

Yea, im caught up in lore

[dim minnow]

ok, so you're aware Osiris lost Sagira at the start of Hunt which was right when Savathun got him

[neat vigil]

Yea basically, i forgot the exact time he was taken but that reminded me

[dim minnow]

then Savathun pretended to be Osiris until Lost where she finally revealed herself

[trim grotto]

This was back when we didn't know it was Sav and/or Osiris as well

[neat vigil]

sucks it got leaked like right away

[dim minnow]

I actually thought that Osiris wasn't Savathun because I thought it was too obvious

[neat vigil]

I got it spoiled so it was runied for me sadly

Have you read the lore on the ship Unforseen Consequenses?

[dim minnow]

the one where Riven pretended to be Mara speaking to Uldren?

I get the feeling that someone is going to do something stupid this season

I'm hoping it will be Petra because I want to add another thing to the list

[lime tiger]

do we know how many timelines the stranger has been thru? like are we her 2nd one or her 10000th one

[trim grotto]

Far more than second, but she frankly does not remember. The returns mess with her memory.

[lime tiger]

ok. i figured it wasnt 2nd based on how she talks. but ht

thx

[chrome fog]

There’s a lore book on some of her resets, it’s titled Dark Futures

[jagged badge]

Dark Future, singular, only follows the events of one of them

Implied to have been her most recent one before our timeline I believe?

I think it’s the Lightfall CE lore book for Elsie that touches on other timelines besides the specific Dark Future one

[ember storm]

undertale

[slim elk]

Nah
Dark Future is her first time. She outright says it in the final page
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/chapter-9-the-return#book-the-dark-future

[jagged badge]

Oh huh

Weird that that’s the one that’s most similar to our current one then

That we know of at least

[jagged badge]

Or our current one at the time of the lore book rather

I’d assumed that that was the result of her having tried various things to get it to go a certain way but then it failed, and she specifically learned from that for our timeline to do things differently

[slim elk]

She's basically brute forced her way to where she is now

And she said in Beyond Light we also existed in the past.. but got corrupted

Of course we never actually seen a Dark Guardian.. so it's an open question what happened or what became of the ghosts

[empty fern]

So uhh, any reason the avarice ogre is sometimes pharzia and sometimes just an ogre?

[ember storm]

he forgets to bring his ID

[empty fern]

Ah

Rookie mistake

[thorny pelican]

Hey so this is a bit old, but can anyone please explain the Seraph Cipher lore for me plz?

I just remembered that artifacts have lore and… what I read makes no sense to me lol

[main parcel]

So I recently returned to D2, and when I last played HELM wasn't a thing, and there was not the huge fleet of ships above the City. What's the lore behind the HELM? What type of ship is it? Where did it come from/Who does it belong to? (and a postscript, if the Fallen and Cabal have so many large ships, and were at war with humanity, why didn't they just drop big rocks on the city from orbit at any point)?

[void kettle]

K so, the helm is like a war center for the vanguard, originally created to combat the cabal (we became allies) as for the large ships, generally the awoken are our allies/neutral to us, so no reason to attack, and the city has energy shields/orbital defences so the cabal can't just drop bombs (from what we can tell)

[main parcel]

Yeah I meant Fallen rather than Awoken (realised I made a mistake and fixed)

But I didn't know about the shields

So the HELM war centre is a human construct, not a captured alien ship? Is it pre-collapse, or recently built? Are there any other large human ships (obviously humans/awoken/exo have the one-person guardian ships, but wondering about big ships)

(Hope I'm not asking too many questions, though presumably this is why the lore discussion channel exists 🙂 )

[chrome fog]

Recently built; as said before, it was basically our headquarters as we coordinated our offense against Caital’s Rites of Proving, which earned our place as her empire’s allies

Then it launched from wherever it was in the hangar/Tower, and resides above Earth

The Eliksni are from House Light, we gave them refuge from House Salvation as the non-combatants felt like Eramis’ leadership was solely centered around her revenge against the Traveler; Misraaks - the Captain from that one strike where you could spare him and help him kill the Hive Knight - is Kell of House Light, he also has a history with Sjur Eido - Petra Venj’s predecessor as Queen’s Wrath - and reached out to us to help ferry more House Salvation refugees

All of this was after Beyond Light and Season of the Hunt, where we help Crow - the resurrected Lightbearer Uldren - earn his freedom from Spider and fight Xivu Arath’s Wrathborn and kill her High Celebrant for killing Osiris’ ghost, Sagira

[main parcel]

Thanks. Yeah I stopped playing very soon after BL released, and returned about a month ago.

So I missed a lot of the lore events

[chrome fog]

Basically Rasputin’s defense systems booting up and the Clovis AI reestablishing the original purpose of developing Rasputin, to gain humanity’s trust and become worshiped by them so that it can install itself into the Warmind system and be lauded as a God. Rasputin opposes this because it’s a jerk move

[chrome fog]

Someone also needed a refresher on lore from BL onward, if you’d like you can read what I typed
#📚lore-discussion message

Got about up to before Lightfall

[main parcel]

I will take a look 🙂

The Destiny lore is remarkably broad TBH. More than I expected.

A lot has happened

[chrome fog]

There’s side stories like Shayura and her fireteam, which started in BL and all the related tabs are essentially in Trials weapons

If you ever come across some sort of side story in a lore tab and want to know more, I suggest searching it up on Ishtar Collective and see if there’s any similarly tagged entries

[thorny pelican]

Thx

[main parcel]

Not sure if anything in the lore about this, or just speculation, but seeing as ghosts can bond with Hive, can there be - and are there known examples - of other races having ghosts. I would have thought that Eliksni of the house of light would be good candidates.

[dim minnow]

only Humanity (Humans, Exos, and Awoken) and Hive for now

as far as we know, other races can't be rezzed

[thorny pelican]

In the last page of Persona, and in the Season of the Seraph artifact, the lore entries end with “STOP STOP STOP.”

Is this just a command, or is Rasputin screaming for something to stop?

[dim minnow]

it seems to be a regular command

since it shows up a lot in other Rasputin entries

[thorny pelican]

Thx

[strange storm]

I wonder if we're getting hints that frames are a little more alive than we think they are

In two of the latest SOTW lore entries they interact with ahamkara in some way, and even if they weren't already, one of those entries has someone wish for them to be more sapient

Could be fun down the line

[chrome fog]

It's been a thing, one of those entries is just an illustration of how frequent and frivilous our wishes can be - though yes, the frame in that entry would be displaying a portion of self-awareness - and the other is a flashback to way before, Arcite's story lead him to being sort of an emissary of Calus' activities in Season of Opulence (I think) and it's already been dealt with

If you'd like you could listen to the scanable in the Hangar, go up to the rack of frames and you should get it

It doesn't culminate in anything really, but yeah most commonplace AI demonstrates a bit of awareness but it's never fully realized like with Rasputin

[trim grotto]

That wasn't Arcite, but a separate pair of Frames.

Think of Frame sentience in Star Wars rules
They're intended to be wiped regularly, and in the Reef they are, or else they develop "personality quirks" ala R2-D2. Not true sentience or AI, per se, but mimicries, learned attributes.

This can be seen with, yes, Arcite and Dahlia, or with the janitorial Frames that whistle as you walk by them in the Tower.

[dim minnow]

Spire of the Watcher?

No, not that

What are you referring to?

[strange storm]

season of the wish - wyrmguard robes lore and the wyrmguard bond (chest and class item)

I do know the chest is a flashback, my thought was more that the fact that he was able to hear the ahamkara whisper at all implies he has some form of desire for them to feed on (but I wasn't around for Season of Opulence so I don't know what it did with Arcite beyond the emissary thing)

Thanks though, I'll have to check out the scannable

[trim grotto]

Again, Arcite wasn't really relevant, it was a separate Frame

I believe one was named Hector

[ebon wharf]

Any idea what "cemali" means? Was replaying lightfall and Claus said it when he was killed

[dim minnow]

we have no idea what it means

could be the name of someone, like maybe Caiatl's mother

but there has been nothing on it as of yet

[trim grotto]

Yeah it's pure speculation right now

[worldly river]

It being Caitl's mother seems like the most likely possibility as of now

[dim minnow]

granted I'm not entirely certain how much Calus cared about her

Calus did truly care about Caiatl, but man was he bad at showing it

[desert tree]

question: do/did any of the vanguard leaders have a named ship?

[dim minnow]

Ikora's Resolve

Queen of Hearts

Zavala's Authority (though not confirmed, but given the trend, I would say so)

[dim minnow]

Ikora flies in using this ship in the Witch Queen when she destroys that Ogre

[dim minnow]

In the opening cutscene for Forsaken, we see Cayde use this ship when flying in alongside us

[desert tree]

gotcha
I had the ship Impolite Company but I wasn't sure if that one specifically was Cayde's ship, so I was a little hesitant on destroying it

[dim minnow]

as for the last ship, there isn't any offical confirmation that Zavala uses it, but given that the other two ships are confirmed, I'd say it is safe to assume that he uses it

funny how all three vanguard personal ships are arcadia class

[trim grotto]

Arcadia is my personal favourite too

[dim minnow]

I was peronally more fond of the Phaetons

though Little Light was my favorite D1 ship

I wish we got that one exotic "Swift hand of god" ship in D1

[wraith pagoda]

So are crucible matches broadcasted in- universe?

I know Saladin shows IB matches to Caiatls army for training.

[trim grotto]

Yes indeed

The people of the City watch it

[wraith pagoda]

Oh god...

"This Guardian right there? That is why you practice." ~Shaxx

[vapid nymph]

lore desinty two

[fiery copper]

I use the ones with the glowing circular VTOL engines on the front

Ew wait no that's a horrible res

Here we go

[jagged badge]

My favourite ship is the Rimskipper Sling

[errant olive]

i like the arrow of time with a red shader it looks cool

[honest folio]

anyone know the groundswell nullifier99

i’m on console otherwise i would put the picture it’s somewhat of a hassle sometimes but that’s the one i use it fits the story i have for my character

[chrome fog]

Whoops, my b; what was the name of the Frame who hung up Shaxx’s skull trophy?

[fast tapir]

I love the Transpose JT-24-X

goofy little ship

[chrome fog]

(You should have a screenshot option on PlayStation or Xbox if you’re up to the current or previous generation) Do you know where it’s from? Like which lore tab did you read about it.

[chrome fog]

Oh that’s a beautiful one

[outer dragon]

Ive been using Silkivory Vanish since Season 15 Dawning
It shades really well and I really haven't seen anyone ever use it

[main parcel]

So I missed the whole thing where the Vanguard - presumably in a mission or raid? - killed Riven. What was that about? Was Riven doing something bad, or did we do something naughty? She seems to feel betrayed.

[jagged badge]

We killed Riven in Last Wish because she had manipulated Uldren into doing all he did in Forsaken and opening the Dreaming City

[tawdry mauve]

the last wish raid is where we kill riven

[main parcel]

I missed that. So she is responsible for Cayde's death, at least indirectly.

[tawdry mauve]

thank god

[trim grotto]

Arcite was the one to help him hang the skull, but not the one who was involved with Calus.

[trim grotto]

Yeah I used it for quite some time
Nice ship

[gray lagoon]

any ideas what this says

[trim grotto]

Well, I've never played the Witcher, so I'd have to do some extra digging to see if that's a language that can be translated or not.

[jagged badge]

A cursory Google search suggests it’s the Lord’s prayer in some sort of Slavic script or something?

I could not personally verify this at all though

[gray lagoon]

ah

[jagged badge]

That was from Reddit though so take it with a grain of salt

It was the top suggestion though so

Who knows

[outer dragon]

She was also taken by Oryx.
When Oryx died she took over some form of control over Taken forces

[gray lagoon]

vanguard killed all the ahamkaras

way b4 we rezzed

[gray lagoon]

also the raid last wish is where we killed riven ourselves

[honest folio]

yes this one !!

i put the hakke camo on it to make it look like a more earth relic preserved esc ship

[ember storm]

my main is tall tale

[empty fern]

I am no longer the original tall tale

I am now known as the thrall wail

[midnight nebula]

🧀

[outer dragon]

Well, the Guardian and their fireteam

But yes the Player Character