#📚lore-discussion

1 messages · Page 57 of 1

fiery copper
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that always confused me about people explaining code, why do people put [] around stuff when you don't actually use them, it just confuses people who don't know the weird secret language

chrome fog
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I think they’re the less important brackets,() and {} are readily used in code as far as I can recall

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So odd one out is more likely to be the thing you swap out

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Also in quotation, [] is used to substitute a they, it, or whatever and place whatever is actually being described in there, that way there’s less ambiguity

jagged badge
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Undying trailer

fiery copper
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i just do things like

"you use <LINK GOES HERE>"

umbral dagger
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if the darkness is memory... then whats cayde6 doing inside the pale heart area?

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😌

chrome fog
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Paracausality saturated plane of existence, a place filled with Light and Darkness

umbral dagger
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and why does the veil give ghost the same feeling as the traveller?

empty fern
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“<oh that’s what this does?>”

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Shit

fiery copper
chrome fog
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We do know some shit

jagged badge
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Though I’m not sure if Osiris was that convinced by that idea

umbral dagger
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im thinking the pale heart was once part of the black garden

chrome fog
fiery copper
empty fern
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Neat

chrome fog
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It was only created once they had made the Black Heart, or rather the Witness gifted it to them, either literally giving it to them or forming all the meager ascendent energy they had coalesced into a miniature defective version of the Veil

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This power they received when storming Oryx’s Throneworld when Crota was tricked by Savathun into cutting an opening into the Vex network to prove himself to his father

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As they stormed the Ascendent Plane, they observed the relationship of Hive to their worms and the tithe system, and so they simulated entities to worship the worms to gain a little bit of Ascendent power

umbral dagger
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if thats the case, then the pale heart is the original garden

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theres no evidence of any other

chrome fog
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This and Quria’s simulation of a young Oryx - back when he was Aurash, one of the Osmium Princesses, and I think Auryx? - being Taken gave them just enough to make the Black Heart, with the method of how being revealed in Lightfall, that it was “gifted to them” by the Witness in some way

chrome fog
slim elk
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New Dungeon trailer dropped.
It looks like the Scorn are trying to resurrect an Ahakmara..
Fikrul finally come out of hiding?

empty fern
empty fern
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BRB

slim elk
# empty fern OH ITS OHT?

https://youtu.be/QUdx8QM8ME4?si=agmPkdKYg9-mbywf

YouTube
Destiny 2
Destiny 2 Dungeon Trailer | Warlord’s Ruin

Storm the castle. Stop the Scorn. Secure the relics.

New Year-6 dungeon: Warlord's Ruin. Available today with the Lightfall Dungeon Key.

🏰 https://bung.ie/warlordsruin

FOLLOW DESTINY:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DestinyTheGame
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/destinythegame
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/destinythegame
Discord: h...

▶ Play video
empty fern
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WHAT IS THAY

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WHY IS IT “forsaken prince shader in store” BLUE

umbral dagger
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what are the scorn?

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sorta fallen but what

slim elk
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Zombies

empty fern
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Ye

empty fern
slim elk
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No seriously
Uldren came across a dying Fikrul and wished to save him. Riven granted it.. and Fikrul came back as a Dark ether spewing immortal

empty fern
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Nice

chrome fog
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Uh I went over it fairly recently, I could get the link for my explanation

empty fern
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Over what?

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Oh scorn

chrome fog
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Very short explanation, they’re reanimated Eliksni brought back to life by Darkness-infused Ether

mossy kernel
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I got a question about vexs

And why theres like 3 types of vexs not counting sol divisive

I mean theres like a group of vexs that look green and rusty and have wierd circles shapes and than theres the gold and white version and than the mercury vexs witch are basic vexs

My question is do they have deferent roles or they just have deferent designs

chrome fog
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They did have different roles

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And there were a lot more than just three collectives

empty fern
slim elk
empty fern
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And the middle man CATGRIN

chrome fog
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But Bungie’s been kinda making all the Vex we fight Sol Divisive, since they’re the last collective who’s still on about trying to harness Paracausality despite how much beef they’ve built between them and the rest of the Vex Network

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Former curators of the Black Heart and Black Garden, they’re the literal black sheep of the Vex

empty fern
mossy kernel
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Yeah i wish we had more of those past and future vexs

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I think they were plenty in d1?

empty fern
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Nope

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Mainly vog and like, some story missions

chrome fog
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Though, some of their experiments were particularly successful before we dismantled them, Vault of Glass (allowed them to rewrite all reality contained within the Vault, with its expansion allowing them to change more of the universe) and I think they were responsible for the frame that took Saint’s Light? Not like Take-take, but it’s like they suppressed his light and then extracted it and also killed his ghost

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Which we have precedent for, the Last City also has Light coursing through its walls

mossy kernel
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Oh

chrome fog
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As well as being able to convert Solar energy into Solar Light - the paracausal kind - during the Golden Age

slim elk
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Of all things.
One plot line I'm surprised the Vex haven't tried is dunking Ahamkara into radiolaria to convert them into Vex

empty fern
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That

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Would be interesting

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But they don’t understand it’s (I think it has) paracasualness so dumping it into their life juice could be risky?

chrome fog
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Didn’t they also vexify a pyramid structure? On Io, the thing was a construct similar to the Pyramids as revealed later in Arrivals, right?

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Or did it come to me in a dream

empty fern
slim elk
chrome fog
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Ye

empty fern
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I don’t think it’s from the black fleet Doritos

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Probably just a name the vanguard called it since it’s a triangle

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Or a pyramid

chrome fog
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Man

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We sure have come far from Arrivals

umbral dagger
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hm

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i wonder if all of the witness race went into one being

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i doubt every single one

empty fern
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Holdon lemme watch the video again

umbral dagger
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i think one or a few must have been against it

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maybe nine đŸ€Ą

empty fern
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https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?si=yM-SJOff9tmWMe2V

YouTube
Destiny 2
Destiny 2: Season of the Deep - The Witness's Origins Cinematic

"Before you can confront The Witness, you must understand it."

This cinematic features art created by community artist Julian Faylona, @ELEMENTJ21 on Twitter.

🌊 https://bung.ie/deep

FOLLOW DESTINY:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DestinyTheGame
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/destinythegame
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/destinytheg...

▶ Play video
umbral dagger
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yeah it seems to imply all

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but

chrome fog
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It’s the most likely explanation out of the couple they themselves suggest in their own lore book

empty fern
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Wait so at 25 seconds in, did the traveler crash? Or grow out of the ground

chrome fog
chrome fog
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We dunno

umbral dagger
chrome fog
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It’s very weird

umbral dagger
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what i find funny is the witness gang wished/hoped things would improve

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then it did

chrome fog
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Eeehhh

umbral dagger
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i dont think thats a coincidence

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darkness is shaped by thought

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and the traveller seemed to respond

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to them

chrome fog
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They followed the weak connection signal between the two - the Traveler and the Veil - to find the latter, and then judging from the language Ahsa uses, they observe that the Veil had a buncha Darkness about it, a Paracausality different to the Light they had plentiful of

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At least, that’s the base interpretation

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Could be something there, but when Bungie wants a connection between things in lore then tend to repeat the same language somewhere that’s tangentially related

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So for instance, if there were an implication of an Ahamkara present to assist the Witness civilization there would’ve been a “wish” somewhere in Ahsa’s account, though who knows, we might get a lore entry that retroactively changes this

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That’s how we learned the “Darkness” we’ve been fighting against that’s been corruptive was the Witness all along

slim elk
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Still is that weird bit with Maya going fanatical after Veil exposure. But its unclear what exactly went on there

chrome fog
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That’s the wrench in all this, what’s going on there

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Could be either the Veil planting the idea of a “Winnower” in the Witness species and it being responsible, or the Witness species’ nihilism infecting the Veil what with the nature of Darkness and their desperate need for a “meaning” to life

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Could also be the Witness’ corruption autopiloting? And not really being aware of the Veil’s presence, but still pushing its will out through the Darkness to any that it touches?

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That’s a reach though, yet maybe plausible

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All spinfoil

slim elk
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Also worth noting Esi and others would have been exposed similar amount of time before they "shielded" the Veil.. but Maya was the only one who went fanatic about it

chrome fog
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Maybe it’s like the Traveler where specific individuals are pinpointed

empty fern
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They were all exos right?

chrome fog
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Not Maya nor Clovis when they both found Clarity/Salvation

empty fern
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Ah

slim elk
# empty fern They were all exos right?

Nah, Esi wasnt an Exo but that proves my point. Anyone living nearby the thing would still have been exposed to the veils "radiation" for lack of a better term

empty fern
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Can we safely assume whatever happened to the catatonic exos would also happen to the vex?

chrome fog
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Maya and Clovis were of the same cloth kinda, Calus as well, maybe it’s like a Speaker situation but pinpointing individuals capable of great vanity

slim elk
empty fern
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Ah

slim elk
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The vex milk exposed to darkness that lets Exos operate

chrome fog
empty fern
ember storm
chrome fog
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I hate that my mind goes to Unity from Rick and Morty when pondering how consciousness is housed in the base saline solution for Radiolaria and Alkahest, the episode from the most recent season with her comes to mind

ember storm
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to make alkahest they used darkness to remove vex patterns and put mindscans in

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if it kills exos by overriding their mindscans it would also just remove the vex patterns

slim elk
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Speaking of close parallels
It does seem what the Cloudark is with all of neomuna uploaded to it is very similar to the Witness origins

ember storm
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I am tired

chrome fog
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Nap

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Also dammit Rick basically dated a Vex Network but it has a personality instead of being death assimilation machines

umbral dagger
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the throne worlds

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this was granted power by the witness?

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the witness has the ability to move or pull planets in and out of existence huh

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i think the witness has its own throne world

chrome fog
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Not really

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It’s kind of a natural occurrence for beings with a great amount of ascendent power

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Specifically it’s rooted in the Sword Logic, how it dictates that you kill others to prove that you deserve to exist more than them

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With a Throneworld, essentially you’re proven the necessity of your existence so much that the universe cannot believe you are gone

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And so, you get a little plot of land in the Ascendent Plane, which is a weird little paracausal level to existence, think along the lines of the Warp in Warhammer or the Mirrior Dimension from the Doctor Strange movie

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I don’t really have a good explanation for the Ascendent Plane

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Also yes, the Witness probably has its own Throneworld, heck it might have been the interiors of all the Pyramids

ember storm
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i doubt it

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the witness doesn't really participate in sword logic at all

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it's not a living organism in the first place, what use would it have for a respawn point like that

chrome fog
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I mean

ember storm
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the hive's use of sword logic is something they did with the worm gods

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the witness wasn't involved in that

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it doesn't practice what they do

chrome fog
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That last point (living organism one) is debatable but also fair, I don’t think it can be killed in any conventional way; but also the Pyramids demonstrate some spatial warping fuckery which could be indicative of Ascendent Plane shenanigans

ember storm
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the pyramids are technology built upon an ungodly amount of time as a civilization under the blessing of the traveler, as well as the veil

chrome fog
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It’s up in the air for something that doesn’t isn’t gonna matter much after we kill the Aitness

ember storm
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there's no need for ascendant plane shenanigans there

umbral dagger
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so how was witness hiding planets?

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we are shown an example of how this could work

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with savas throne world

ember storm
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they weren't hidden

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actually savathun mentions how the process worked

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it's just the power of taking but used to the fullest potential

umbral dagger
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hm

ember storm
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when individuals are taken, they're removed from regular reality

umbral dagger
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to where?

ember storm
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they're not actually turned into Taken until another process is completed while there

umbral dagger
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hold up

ember storm
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the planets and moons were just taken away

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you can't turn a big rock into a taken because it's not alive

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so the witness just kept them

umbral dagger
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but where?

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only logical place i can think of then is here

ember storm
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wherever the witness takes them

ember storm
umbral dagger
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yeah not there, but there

ember storm
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the asccendent plane is basically just a different layer to reality

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it's not where they go or where they come from

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they're not taken away to a specific place

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they're just gone until they're sent back

umbral dagger
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i dunno

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ide rather go with visable evidence weve seen

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over pure conjecture

ember storm
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it's not conjecture we're literally just told what the ascendant plane is, and it's not where taken come from

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the only reason taken are associated with the ascendant plane is because ascendant hive are always with them

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and the dreaming city specifically is where savathun and xivu had been sending taken in droves for years because they wanted things in there

chrome fog
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Mara explains the Ascendant Plane somewhat succinctly in Defiance, seeing as half of the seasonal story is in the Ascendent Plane sneaking into Pyramid ships

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Just another layer to reality

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Taken are not naturally occurring, they are made

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Specifically, Taking as is conventionally known happens in two parts

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Waltz already covered that they’re physically moved somewhere else, and the Taking of the planetary destinations in Arrivals (with clarification this season specifically) demonstrates this aspect of Taking to its fullest

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The second part involves shaping and reconfiguring the entirety of the target so that they “perfectly” suit their purpose as a weapon and tool to carry out your own will

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A Taken (usually) no longer has a will of its own, their will is that of their Taker - so Oryx or the Witness

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Oryx details that specifically the Deep changes them, but that somewhat conflicts with how Xivu Arath was able to Take Kelgorath, whilst the Witness is beyond the portal, though other threats this season have been assumed to be working on the Witness’ order

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But those are the two pieces to Taking: physically moving an entity, and then exerting and dominating their individual will with your own

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Riven is one of “exception” to this, but as an Ahamkara there’s a bunch of weirdness to her

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Kelgorath also seems to be an equal exception with one of the lore tabs this season

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The entry itself has a parallel to Unveiling, specifically regarding a “knife”

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In full honesty it’s been a while since I’ve gone into Unveiling and the whole deciphering the metaphor for what’s happening, but I remember there being some entry which gives vague conjecture on how the First Knife came to strike the Gardener

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There’s three possible “explanations” to who cut the Gardener to her mortal form: either the First Knife was wielded by her sister in argument over adding Paracausality to the rules of the Flower Game, the First Knife was wielded by the Flowers themselves (so by one of the birthed species and/or individuals in each “universe” aka Flower Game), or the First Knife wielded itself

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We do have entries for these, but I can’t recall if it’s in Dreams of Alphi Lupi, Unveiling or one of the other loose entries that connect to the whole Gardener story

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For example MK 44 Stand Asides - the exotic Titan legs - for some reason describes the Gardener in the
 well, Garden, tending to the Flowers and making specific mention of the worms and bugs in said Garden

prime rover
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is the titan in the cutscene that got smushed trying to follow the witness res-able or is disfigurement not all that fixable by ghosts

shadow warren
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I think he’s dead for good

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Didn’t his ghost get sliced up

prime rover
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I forgot to consider that the ghost could've got smushed as well actually

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no that was another cutscene wasn't it

shadow warren
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Idk maybe

chrome fog
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Dead for good

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For the ones that tried attacking the Witness, yes, their Ghosts were sliced up and so were they, so Final Death

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For the Titan that tried to enter the portal, we have his account going through it, it’s the exotic ship reward for leveling up the Sonar Station reputation

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And yes, it’s insinuated that he and his ghost got all fucked up and fused into the ship; the cascading of all his entire being’s memories both before and as a Lightbearer as well as him screaming to his death shortly after entering the portal gives credence that that was his final moments

prime rover
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would leaving the ghost behind and ressing whoever goes in after they die work or am I not getting something

jagged badge
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The Guardian who attacked the Witness were Reed, Aisha and Shayura. Only Reed’s Ghost perished

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Aisha and Shayura were sliced too but able to resurrected

chrome fog
chrome fog
prime rover
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would it hypothetically work in the case of joxer or whatever his name was

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or would he come back in a horrible state if he even came back at all

chrome fog
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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I mean his body could probably be reconstructed, but the state of his mind might be a wreck

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The Light does not guarantee a sound mind; look at Cyrell, the Ghost Killer, dude woke up and chose to haunt the Reef killing as many ghosts as he could, paired or unpaired

prime rover
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we know what they felt when they went through but do we know what the portal actually like does to people

chrome fog
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Ghost stories also has an account of a guardian who affects the same delusion as Don Quixote

prime rover
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I'd imagine the ghost was screaming because it was experiencing a similar memory thing the titan was

chrome fog
chrome fog
prime rover
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yeah I read that and it probably added more questions if anything

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doesn't it like pop out and rotate often though

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I really hope going in there doesnt turn you inside out if it really did get pulled apart like that though

chrome fog
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It’s in pain, is what that should impart on you

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And, well

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Joxer was a mangled mess imbedded into his ship

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Sooo, all that’s left is imagining how that feels

prime rover
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wait so the ship was fine, it just got spit out afterwards?

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I forgot most of the cutscene 💀

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it was wreckage actually, nvm

chrome fog
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Nothing on that man is where it should be, including himself

prime rover
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is the ares project or whatever he's talking about something we know about or is it just a buzzword we're supposed to think is important

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or well, was important to him

chrome fog
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Ares-1 mission was a manned mission to Mars in order to make contact with the Traveler

dim minnow
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enough to make a movie about really

onyx rapids
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was the telesto stuff a time back like a joke or lore connected

chrome fog
chrome fog
prime rover
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I guess this is a sort of related question but do guardians keep the previous lives memories, just super repressed? or what

jagged badge
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Joge

chrome fog
jagged badge
chrome fog
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They just also have the same mannerisms

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But also ^

prime rover
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I know crow got uldrens memory but that was different, and cayde did as well but his was more from being an exo than from a guardian thing

chrome fog
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Eeeehhhhh

jagged badge
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SavathĂ»n seemed to either unlock Uldren’s memories in Crow or just give them to him

chrome fog
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She could’ve also deep sighted them

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Maybe

jagged badge
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I kinda wanna gravitate towards the first because it feels like it makes more sense tbh

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Because obviously they still possess stuff like semantic and procedural memory

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It’s just the episodic memory is either blocked or missing

chrome fog
prime rover
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shared dream?

chrome fog
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I don’t recall it well, and it might be something all Exos have but idr, it’s somewhat different for each Exo but they also end the same, with them being drawn to some monolithic/crypt building

prime rover
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what are the implications behind that

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does everyone wake up before they make it to the monolith or do the people who make it there go crazy or what

fresh zephyr
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Wishing from an Ahamkara is like wishing from a Djinn

prime rover
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is it just that, a dream

fresh zephyr
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There's this thing cayde said he saw. What was it called?

chrome fog
little gorge
prime rover
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der is like the point where an exo stops being like a functional person right

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is there a point of no return where they get bricked if they don't reset for too long

jagged badge
dim minnow
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DER ends in death

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which as far as we know involves them literally tearing themselves apart

prime rover
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oh that's notably worse than I thought

jagged badge
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There is an entry where Shiro asks his Ghost why Shiro, and his Ghost explains he could like see that was Shiro’s name

chrome fog
dim minnow
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fun fact, Ana watched it happen to her father when she was 11

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and she was intrigued by it

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also her grandfather gave her a mint from his pocket when it happened

prime rover
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does it advance like super rapidly after a certain point or did they just let it happen for science or whatever

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is that point the dream

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am I connecting a bunch of barely related dots

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I feel like I should start at square one

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what's der

chrome fog
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Maybe we should run down what DER is specifically and the development process for Exos that Clovis had to go through

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I’m mowing the lawn rn so I pass the baton to Dova

dim minnow
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and there is no way to undo becoming an exo

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in terms of specifics like how far it progresses before you can't be saved, I'm not really sure

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reboots and humanisms are just meant to prevent DER entirely

prime rover
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i think I'll need several further explanations on that bit but meanwhile

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have there been exos that got turned into pseudo-ai's, like almost talking heads

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either as a bandaid fix to der or for reasons completely unrelated to it

dim minnow
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if you're referring to Clovis AI, he technically doesn't count

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besides, Clovis also put his mind in an exo body

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Clovis-1 who we now know as Banshee-44

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oh, and memory issues are a side effect of a lot of reboots

prime rover
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what are reboots and humanisms

dim minnow
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reboots are essentially resetting the exo's memories

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the initial purpose of reboots was to stop exos from asking too many annoying questions, but it turned out it also helped prevent DER

prime rover
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and also have there been new exos since clovis stopped being clovis or are all surviving exos an eternity old

dim minnow
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reboots were also meant to keep exos in line or to get rid of incriminating info

dim minnow
dim minnow
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Ada became an exo right after the collapse

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though strangely enough she never had any reboots and her exo model doesn't even have a mouth

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and she's been around for centuries yet has no issues with DER

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could be related to the fact that she was a child when she became an exo

prime rover
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I assume humanisms are like adding human characteristics and abilities like mouths and eating to stop them from thinking their robo humanoid body is being more robo than human?

dim minnow
prime rover
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on a slightly related note, did clovis try using not-humanoid bodies at one point

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I assume if he did it went horribly

dim minnow
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ended poorly even with just that

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so less human exo bodies would probably end even worse

prime rover
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the extra arms did more than just... not work, right

analog torrent
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Did any of the new dungeon items come with Iron Lord lore

chrome fog
prime rover
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also, would a full body paralytic not keep em from tearing themselves apart until their mind adapted properly to the body they got

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or does it not work that way

chrome fog
# prime rover have there been exos that got turned into pseudo-ai's, like almost talking heads

Technically yes as the Clovis AI is based on an incomplete mindscan of Clovis, at best it’s just really good affecting the mannerisms and choices of Clovis as he was at the time of the mindscan, which is to say it perfectly copies his narcissistic asshole-ness, different to how Clovis at the end of his life as a human changed his view on his “legacy” and wished he did better
https://ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-lament

The Lament — Entry — Ishtar Collective

The last thing the Vex ever heard—the grinding wails of a vicious Banshee.
—
FROM THE DESK OF CLOVIS BRAY
Dear
 me.
For one who has delved into some of the greatest secrets science has to offer, you would think I'd find speaking with oneself rather monotonous. However, this very letter represents a successful culmination of all I have worked to ...

chrome fog
chrome fog
prime rover
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okay one more(?) question before i go back to that square one question

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can someone like hit an exos reset button and forcibly reset them without them knowing or allowing it or is it not that simple

chrome fog
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I think so? That would track with what Dova said earlier as resets were a way to keep Exo volunteers from asking too many questions

prime rover
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is that like a backdoor lost to time or do we actually know where it is/how to do it

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so i guess like recent accounts of an exo being forcibly reset

chrome fog
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You could also just

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Kill the Exo

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And then upload the Exomind scan into a new body, restart again

chrome fog
prime rover
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actually i dont know how to rephrase that

chrome fog
prime rover
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yeah i guess that was what i was getting at

chrome fog
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Ok, what was the square one question again

prime rover
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so every current day exo knows their own reset button but not anyone elses? or is that something we have no idea about

chrome fog
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Lemme see

prime rover
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i assume current day exos still need to reset

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the square one question was uhhh what was der and what was the design process behind clovis's exo-ifying procedure

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something like that

chrome fog
chrome fog
prime rover
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so there were just exos ripping themselves apart from the great collapse until beyond light?

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the time it takes for der to kick in varies between exos even if they all got the same body template and everything?

chrome fog
chrome fog
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But with greater psychosis than just memory degradation

prime rover
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so current exos were made with a newer more humane process? or were they just not directly in clovis's metaphorical spotlight

chrome fog
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All Exos are from the Golden Age, supposedly

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Dark Ages had a majority of humanity basically regress to Mad Max, medieval ages society, so that would’ve been out of the question

prime rover
#

newer is a relative term in this case, i guess. what i meant is like after clovis was all """done""" with his experiments but still during the golden age

chrome fog
#

By the time of the Collapse it was already being advertised I believe; there’s a concierge AI who talks about the Braytech “”””history”””” back when Mars was a destination

#

I could also be totally wrong

#

Basically, it would’ve been wide spread already by the time the Collapse rolled around

#

So Clovis would’ve already fully developed the Exo tech to a manufacturable degree

prime rover
#

so its been well established that clovis was generally a pos

#

but was it all like

#

in pursuit of his life extension goal or was he doing it just because he felt like it

#

after the life extension bit was achieved, anyways

#

ends justify the means and all that

chrome fog
#

He wanted to be inmortal and also be remembered forever; he was obsessed with Legacy

#

He also wanted to replace the Traveler, building up Rasputin to be the protector of the Sol System and then upload his own consciousness to take control

#

Ana had different ideas, as she wanted Rasputin to actually develop as an individual, really make him the first truly sentient AI

#

Ironically both ideas stemmed from the fact he originated as the automated life-support system in the Ares-1 mission

#

I think it was Life-support

prime rover
#

what made him change his mind near the end of clovis before he started over with the whole banshee thing again

chrome fog
potent bridge
#

has anyone ran the dungeon that can tell me a synopsis of the current lore?

chrome fog
#

Since it is a letter he writes before his consciousness is uploaded into his Exo frame without the mindscan of his memories

dim minnow
#

FIKRUL LORE FINALLY

#

According to the dungeon exotic, Fikrul sent five Scorn knights to Earth to claim newly made Scorn there

#

The first boss of the dungeon is the leader of these knights

potent bridge
#

OOH, thats really cool.

dim minnow
outer dragon
#

Or against Lightbearers in general?

dim minnow
#

Apparently a disgraced warlord met Hefnd after fleeing Old Russia. It was then that she made a wish for its kindness. Whatever debt is incurred by one's wish would be incurred to her

dim minnow
outer dragon
#

Do we know the name of the Warlord?

dim minnow
#

Naemma or something

scarlet glacier
#

what happened with uldren sov to make it where he was locked up in the prison of elders before he broke out during forsaken

#

like what made him be put there

trim grotto
#

He had gone mad.

#

Forgotten those he cared about, driven insane, angry. Rivens Taken influence in his mind.

scarlet glacier
#

definitely......

shadow warren
#

So the final boss isn’t an actual ahamkara

#

But the bones in the final area were its bones

#

I’m no lore geek

#

But I bet Mara isn’t an ahamkara lol

#

Isn’t there lore of her becoming awoken

#

And several other non-ahamkara characters have used that language

trim grotto
#

Seems to be the same deal as Forsaken. It wasn't actually Mara, it was Riven's illusion.

shadow warren
#

Oh so ur saying crow wasn’t actually speaking to Mara after all

trim grotto
#

That's the way I see it

dim minnow
#

Nice we get to hear from Fikrul again

#

And it's niw confirmed that he usn't aligned with the Witness

chrome fog
#

RIVEN NO

#

WHY’D YOU DO THIS

ember storm
slim stream
#

Is there some type of lore that makes it so guardians can't change the way they look? Wondering why character customization isn't a thing x.x

ember storm
#

cosmetic surgery is probably a lost art to the city

#

if you’re just asking about hair color or whatever there’s no answer for that because there’s not lore for everything

#

bungie just made the game certain ways

#

sometimes they cheekily reference it with lore but it doesn’t go beyond that

#

not everything needs to be explained

#

it is what it is

trim grotto
#

But if I really wanted to, then I could say how there's no evidence of a Guardian having lasting physical changes that exist after a confirmed resurrection.

#

Apart from minor comments about resurrections not going perfectly. Minor lasting injuries that may well be hyperbolic.

little gorge
#

also in a more meta sense it's vaguely reminiscent of the riven fight

smoky rose
#

The ahamkara is incredibly dead

#

If you missed the giant column of bones

dim minnow
#

it is interesting that the acolyte eyes look like Ahamkara eyes in the final fight

smoky rose
#

But its spirit turned a servitor into a chimera and decided to get revenge on the fallen who killed its guardian friend

dim minnow
#

so it is confirmed that the kings killed Naeem right?

smoky rose
#

Yes afaik

dim minnow
#

and the Ahamkara turned them into Scorn

smoky rose
#

It waited a while though

#

But yes

dim minnow
#

which is why Fikrul sent his knights there to claim them

smoky rose
#

Yes

#

And they had some form of culture

#

They are completely independent of the witness

dim minnow
#

I was just assuming that the kings killed her

smoky rose
#

Also dova I’m sure you saw the archer the warrior and the mage in the cave

dim minnow
#

exotic sidearm lore does confirm that Fikrul is not aligned with the Witness

dim minnow
smoky rose
#

It’s very funny

dim minnow
#

don't know how to find it

smoky rose
#

When you walk into the dungeon, stick to the left and go around a cliff

#

Instead of going right up the rock and then around the cliff

#

It’s like the first 50 meters after spawning in

#

My brother actually eager edged me off the map and I saw a ledge and saved myself and then went “huh what’s this”

quasi iron
#

not lore chat

#

reported

pure tree
#

The dialogue we get from the bones in the new dungeon indicates that the scorn we fight in the dungeon are former kings that were transformed as part of the dying wish of a warlord, tho I am a bit confused, is it saying that the warlords wish is what set in motion the kings destruction by uldren and the scorn, or is it saying that the castle was occupied by the kings and only recently turned to scorn when the ahkarmhara was able to draw taken power?

ember storm
chrome fog
idle raptor
#

I'm lost on this new dungeon story. what's happening, exactly?

dim minnow
#

meanwhile, the Scorn bosses we see are knights sent by Fikrul to retrieve the Scorn the Ahamkara created when it attacked the House of Kings who killed its warlord friend

jagged badge
#

Awh

dim minnow
#

I believe the Taken Ogre boss is a manifestation of the Ahamkara's grief

little gorge
#

it's called the locus of wailing grief

little gorge
peak coral
empty fern
#

Fool

chrome fog
blazing wasp
#

Not lore chat, marked for vengeance

modern lodge
#

Yo lore peeps, how many years does the span from D1 to lightfall take in years?

#

Do we know that at all?

smoky rose
#

add a few months for specific incidents like the red war

#

Cayde's death canonically happend on a tuesday

vapid nebula
#

Are skorn and taken friends or why are they in the same dungeon?

ember storm
#

some follow the same master but not all

outer dragon
#

The fact that we have no Ahamkara exotic for Titans speaks volumes to Titans being smarter than the other classes

smoky rose
modern lodge
#

Current destiny sorry

dim minnow
# vapid nebula Are skorn and taken friends or why are they in the same dungeon?

Depends on the context. For the most part, Taken and Scorn are fighting side by side if they are both being controlled by the Witness. In the dungeon however, the Scorn and Taken are both under the control of a pissed off Ahamkara. Though some of the Scorn there were sent by Fikrul who isn't aligned with the Witness nor the Ahamkara.

#

It seems like the Ahamkara took control of Fikrul's strike team.

vapid nebula
#

Thx, good to know ❀

jagged badge
#

Obviously there’s background lore that goes back decades, centuries, even eons and eons

dim minnow
#

And most major things take place on Tuesdays

jagged badge
#

There’s gotta be some conspiracy nuts going wild trying to figure out the cosmic significance of Tuesdays

dim minnow
#

Excluding Red War starting and most raids/dungeons

#

Red War began on a Wednesday because one of the Nine made it so

#

It was why the Guardians couldn't predict the Red Legion's attack.

jagged badge
#

True

#

Guardians were on high alert on the Tuesday but when nothing happened, they went on vacay

empty fern
#

Like, p-

exotic cloak
#

Is there any type of book or text that talks about Drifter and Eifreeedit encounter? In Gambit there is a dialogue about her destroying his bar

outer dragon
#

Read A Man With No Name

#

You will like it

chrome fog
#

That's probably the specific incident as well, the latter part of the book is about him running the Bar with No Name (right? idr) under the name Wu Ming

outer dragon
#

Yeah

#

@exotic cloak
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/loose-ends-pt-ii#book-a-man-with-no-name

Loose Ends, pt. II — Entry — Ishtar Collective

—
Wu Ming looked on as the Warlords surrounded the lone Iron Lady.
"End of the World is Wolves territory," Efrideet was saying. "And so is the entirety of Felwinter Peak."
"That changes tonight." A crescent of Light arced between the Warlord's open hands. "I have an army of raiders and a fireteam of Risen waiting on my command. Felwinter's lost ...

#

Here you go

outer dragon
chrome fog
#

Baller

outer dragon
#

Oh shit it was Citan

#

I didn't realize that was Citan too

#

He was leading the warlords that day

exotic cloak
outer dragon
dim minnow
#

Citan really was a jobber

#

got his shit kicked in by Felwinter who was at least half his size

outer dragon
#

Felwinter cheesed Citan hard though

dim minnow
#

got wrecked by Efrideet even with two other warlords backing him up

#

the only real victory we have for him is him against a large crowd of starving villagers

#

powerscalers be like: Citan beats Shaxx no dif

#

because Citan beat more starving people to death than Shaxx

#

Shaxx only beat 3 starvingt thieves to death

#

while Citan beat an entire crowd of them

outer dragon
#

I like powerscaling in a macro sense of its likely this person/character/creature would beat this other person/character/creature but it can get silly some times

#

But as far as actual feats of Citan, yeah I wish we got some more because clearly he had some skill

dim minnow
#

I'd consider it more as just pure strength

#

and power

#

probably explains why Felwinter and Efrideet styled on him so hard

#

even though strength matters a lot, you can counter it with a combination of wit and skill alongside some useful tools at your disposal like blink

#

plus the strength difference isn't as big since they are all Lightbearers

#

as strong as Citan was, Felwinter and Efrideet both had the skills to avoid his attacks and the powers and wit to take him down

outer dragon
#

Yeah Citan strikes me as the kind of person who would be content brutalizing the Lightless and newly Risen

dim minnow
#

would have liked to see Felwinter knock off Dryden though

outer dragon
#

Rather than fight established Lightbearers

#

I want more Dark Age lore

#

Period

dim minnow
#

all we get is rumors that he did (though let's be real, he certainly killed Dryden)

outer dragon
#

It is very likely

#

Given his history

dim minnow
#

it's a shame that A Man With no Name ended right when Felwinter tells Felspring to ready his arsenal and to call Dryden

dim minnow
#

we pretty much know he did

#

though Shaxx stated that there were rumors that Felwinter killed Dryden

#

and Saladin had no idea about it either

#

until Shaxx mentioned it

chrome fog
#

Imagine if all Citan had was his barrier being an electric fence to any starving peasants

warm fjord
#

im kinda new to destiny lore, but is the exo ada-1 mean she died once before (so ig the first one is ada or ada-0?) or does the number in her name mean she hasn’t lost her first body yet?

ember storm
#

being a human is considered number 0

#

when your mind is scanned and transferred to the exo body, then you're Name-1

#

and no you're not dead

#

you specifically have to be alive for the scan process to work

#

can't copy over a brain that has no activity

warm fjord
#

so wait, banshee-44 always changes his exo? he didn’t die many times?

ember storm
#

you can't change bodies

#

when you're put into the exo body, that's it

#

what happened to Banshee was a result of the special Europa facilities, where they had the means to repair the body

#

the point where the body was damaged and "killed" meant the mind was offline for a period of time, which they considered a reset and added another number to the iteration counter

#

he went from -1 to -2, -3, -4, etc

#

those facilities don't work anymore though, so if an exo's body is destroyed then they're just dead

#

i'm also pretty sure his body was mostly intact whenever it happened anyway, but regardless

#

it's the same exo chassis the whole time

warm fjord
#

will they still add a number even if the memories are somehow kept and restored after a reset?

chrome fog
ember storm
# 
should also consider a built-in procedure to block memories formed
after the exobody transubstantiation, returning them to a "factory
state" should the need to restart occur. It would be very difficult
to actually track down and delete the full memory engrams since
they are stored in so many scattered parts of the brain. Instead,
we can tourniquet off associative access to those memories and let
them wither away in isolation. A memory is not a recording, after
all. It is a set of instructions to reenact a brain state:
choreography for a play. And like any play, it will fade if left
unperformed.```
chrome fog
ember storm
#

doesn't seem like the memories are actually wiped

chrome fog
#

It's more like going back to an old save

#

The mindscan records everything the mind remembers up to that point, so if you die you don't get any of the memories you made after the mindscan

warm fjord
#

ig exos are a dying breed too if all of em were made in the golden age

#

altho why cant the traveller just hand out the manual

chrome fog
#

Because the Traveller didn't make Exos

warm fjord
#

what did the traveller give to human civilization exactly to facilitate a golden age then?

hardy anvil
#

This is just so funny to think about

warm fjord
chrome fog
#

In fact, Exos were made with the influence of the Witness; Clovis was drawn to the "Clarity" statue on Europa and it instructed him on how to turn radiolaria into alkahest - basically the same medium that can house a mind but without the Vex in it

hardy anvil
#

I don't know it

ember storm
#

it facilitates the growth of civilization

hardy anvil
#

I just know that the Traveller is just a big fat rock

ember storm
#

it doesn't handhold the whole time

chrome fog
#

She'd like to not be called a rock

dim minnow
#

It also seems like it gave humanity some other unspecified gifts

chrome fog
#

And yeah, what Waltz said, there's a tendency for the Traveler to passively facilitate advancements in technology within a civilization

hardy anvil
chrome fog
#

We do have information on the composition of her physical form

dim minnow
#

Like that topological thought thing Elsie got from the Jacob Hardy Trust in order to try and destroy the Vex on Volantis

ember storm
chrome fog
warm fjord
#

wait, maybe it’s in the fandom

chrome fog
#

Give me a minute

chrome fog
dim minnow
#

At least that's what the dialogue implies

ember storm
#

never look there

warm fjord
#

why not?

chrome fog
#

Fandom is a shit wiki hosting company

warm fjord
#

is there an alternative?

chrome fog
# dim minnow It's not even the Traveler. It's some envoy

Eerrrr loud incorrect buzzer noise
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-traveler

Ghost Fragment: The Traveler — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective

Dreams of Alpha Lupi
You have lived as invisibly as possible, flicking from solar system to solar system, making grand plans, overseeing the culturing of civilizations, before leaving in a blink. But you have no recollection of ever wanting worship or even thanks from those blessed by you.
But memory is heavy now.
It feels like lead and neutro...

chrome fog
candid inletBOT
chrome fog
#

Destinypedia is still sketch, though I consider it a more reliable wiki than Fandom

#

At the very least, it's good for tracking entries

#

For how scuffed the summations can be Destinypedia, they do serve as a way to get citations

#

And Ishtar Collective is also described as a Lore database, but a better descriptor for it is a repository of all the lore entries we have in Destiny 1 and 2, as it pulls them directly from the API

#

And then there's communities like this where you can get people to explain it all, some for better some for worse

idle raptor
#

is the ahamkara in this dungeon relevant to anything crucial?

empty fern
chrome fog
#

Information on what's going on behind the Taken and the Scorn

#

Fikrul's trying to carve out a niche for the Scorn, seems he can impart sapience to them

#

Taken are not as firmly under the Witness' control, so they're more influenced by others; that lore tab we thought was Kelgorath was actually one of the bosses in the new dungeon

#

Also the real last remaining ahamkara, though yes their physical body is dead they're a further demonstration of how they do not necessarily require their physical body, though we know this from how the ahamkara bones still grant wishes - Eris Morn being a notable case

dim minnow
#

According to the end of the dungeon quest, the Ahamkara was killed by Shaxx a while ago

chrome fog
#

The ahamkara for the dungeon is sort of a spirit like Riven is rn, but it allowed itself to draw all the Taken energy and shapeshifted itself into the Chimera boss; I think it also drew the Taken to the keep to kill the House of Kings after they killed its warlord companion

#

Oh yeah, it was a spirit back when the Warlord met it the first time, she wished from the ahamkara for its kindness

dim minnow
#

And it turned the Fallen into Scorn

#

Hmmm, Eris mentions that the Pyramids' arrival in Arrivals got a bunch of stuff wigging out

#

So maybe the Witness used Ahamkara bones to make more Scorn

#

Since the Witness can create Scorn

#

Or perhaps the Witness recreated the process Riven used

#

I suppose Fikrul is a special case since he keeps coming back even after being killed

#

Probably the difference between Witness Scorn and Ahamkara Scorn

chrome fog
#

Ah fuddle sticks, it's still classified

trim grotto
#

Your face is classified

chrome fog
#

Zira's shell, from the dungeon, details teh conversation between the warlord and the Ahamkara

trim grotto
chrome fog
#

NAUUU

queen walrus
#

im really let down by the design of the weapons from the new dungeon. The flavor text for the dungeon and some of the weapons mention relics, yet these guns are so basic looking. Was really hopign for some dark age medieval looking stuffs. No lore tabs either @_@. Really makes me think some of the guns were thrown in last second.

chrome fog
#

Should probably look at the shell you get from the dungeon

#

And also there's the ornament for the assassin's cowl

queen walrus
#

ill look forward to getting the shell ThumbsUp

chrome fog
#

Gl

#

đŸ«Ą

smoky rose
#

Its warlord armament

#

They used guns

queen walrus
#

i know they used guns too mhm! i meant more like the iron lords and stuff

#

they used guns of course too but

#

emphasis on the style

#

like the iron banner rise of iron guns

chrome fog
#

I haven’t ran the dungeon yet, cramming the end of the semester, but I like the look of the weapons, very much like they came from an era between the Dark Age and the City Age

trim grotto
halcyon aspen
#

You were saying?

dim minnow
#

gear doesn't really strike me as Dark Age

#

I think the general theme of the loot is just meant to surround mountain climbing

#

you can see the spiky shoes on each class

#

and the sword looks like an ice pick

#

would have been nice if the gear was more knight themed

#

given that we are going through an actual castle

meager belfry
#

A shame the iron companion sets are more knight themed than this

chrome fog
balmy mulch
#

This probably sounds stupid but Is drifters ship really big or does he just transport it to different planets when we play since he has different maps

trim grotto
wheat flower
#

So did mara know clovis back before he was a big head underground?

trim grotto
#

She would have known of him, though.

wheat flower
#

so why does she hate him more than the rest

trim grotto
wheat flower
#

the cast

#

was doing the moon bg and mara sounded like she had a deep grudge against him in the voicelines

trim grotto
#

She wouldn't have known the details of Clovis back then, and who knows what she knows today, but Clovis was a well known public figure and he wasn't exactly a subtle, charming one.

ember storm
#

as a leader of people who continually has to weigh in on the best decisions, of course she'd hate someone like clovis who regularly threw away lives without any care at all

slim elk
#

Throw in both of them having giant egos and a clash was all but inevitable

ember storm
#

mara really didn't have her ego by the time seraph rolled around

#

the witness literally just calling her up expecting her to go along with it was a massive wakeup call

paper gorge
#

is this the first time we've seen taken scorn in the new dungeon ?

tawdry mauve
#

its the first time we have seen scorn in a dungeon afaik

ember storm
#

just kinda suffering from taken affects

peak coral
ember storm
#

I think the question was about scorn that have been taken

#

like just in general

#

so the answer is just “kinda”

peak coral
tawdry mauve
#

💀

#

im joking

peak coral
#

thats mean

tawdry mauve
#

that was very rude of me to say 😭

peak coral
#

:((((

tawdry mauve
#

im sowwy

peak coral
#

:(

tawdry mauve
#

also you didnt put anything for warlord 💀

peak coral
tawdry mauve
#

so this is the second ever mixed dungeon we had too hmmmmm

peak coral
#

yea

ember storm
#

I count Trevor as his own unique enemy race

#

but zero hour isn’t a dungeon

serene swift
#

A roomba is not a race

jagged badge
tawdry mauve
gusty oracle
#

Does anyone know what the lore on the Scatter Signal is? It looks like a code but I'm not sure what it would translate to

jade rampart
#

What kind of power do cloud striders have

ember storm
#

none

#

it’s tech

empty fern
#

Silver tech CATGRIN

chrome fog
#

Goopy nano machine tech

chrome fog
gusty oracle
#

Thanks

outer dragon
#

Was there supposed to be more dialog during the dungeon? I only got dialog up to the second boss and then after I killed the final boss

#

I feel like something was missing

worldly edge
#

I wonder if Crow uses a wish dragon to bring Cayde back for TFS. His dialogue in the new raid said something about wanting to undo what he did as Sov

little gorge
chrome fog
#

But also Riven’s up to some fuckery, mimicking his sister again

outer dragon
pure tree
#

We know that the scorn themselves are undead eliskni resurrected using dark ether, but do we know whether the scorn barons were alive during the forsaken campaign or were they undead?

trim grotto
trim grotto
trim grotto
pure tree
#

Also with shadowkeep, the whole thing about the building of the scarlet keep, the nightmares, and then our arrival and absolute murdering of the remnants of the hidden swarm, finding the pyramid and killing zulmak, was that all a plot by Savathun to get the hidden swarm to act as an xp farm for us?

#

Aka hone our blades and find the darkness

chrome fog
#

We don’t and can’t apply Sword Logic

#

Not until Eris’ ritual in Season of the Witch

pure tree
#

Well, I don't mean invoking the sword logic, more like getting experience in killing hive

#

I mean, it seems like savathun did everything to prepare the hidden swarms downfall by our hands, I'm trying to figure out why

dim minnow
pure tree
#

Ah, fair enough

dim minnow
#

And while it may be unintentional, she started the events of Shadowkeep

#

Since the Hidden Swarm storming the surface of the Moon was because Savathun goaded them into doing it.

pure tree
#

I get that it's the point of shadowkeep, but it's such feeling of whiplash playing D1 where the hidden swarm is this mighty and elusive hive brood, the greatest of all sol hive until the arriva of oryx, and then when we go back to the moon in D2, it's a crumbling wreck barely capable of challenging us

#

Like in Dark Below, all the lieutenants of crota we kill are seasoned veterans of the great disaster and then in Shadowkeep, its leader we kill in a strike, it's 2nd in command we kill in a story mission, and it's greatest champion is a resurrected nightmare dude with a really big sword like some crota wannabe

ember storm
pure tree
#

True

ember storm
#

the only one that gave us any amount of trouble was omnigul because she showed up for a couple missions and just ran away

#

she was still just a strike boss in the end

pure tree
#

And the big man himself

peak coral
#

oops! autocorrect!

versed orbit
#

oops!

peak coral
#

*They werent actually scorn. they were in fact, a combattant of the house of wolves.

smoky rose
ember storm
#

i mean yeah it's not much of a stretch

#

the hidden swarm weren't relevant at all after crota died

pure tree
#

I almost feel bad for the hidden swarm, after crotas end it was just bad luck after bad luck

ember storm
#

their only notable appearance between then and shadowkeep was literally them being treated like animals by the splicers

pure tree
#

The whole inquisiton of the damned, the heretical deathsinger/knight going berserk and killing a whole bunch of the remaining swarm, including zulmak, the daughters assassinating the rest, and then in a story mission, strike, and dungeon, we decapitate what's left of their 'leadership'

#

And then osiris comes later and finishes them off

#

Hidden swarm taking one L after another

ember storm
#

as all hive do

dim minnow
#

we still haven't gotten a true resolution to Zulmak

#

and there is a chance that Kinox could still be alive

#

not a big one

#

I'm willing to bet that the Hidden Swarm will be the focus of the third episode of TFS

outer dragon
#

And they can just keep bringing Zulmak back because Necromancy

dim minnow
#

as far as I know, this is before Savathun enlisted Nokris' help

#

and the Hidden Swarm would not have been on good terms with him

outer dragon
#

Thats fair

prime rover
#

how does the player character mesh into canon

#

i assume guardians werent lined up around the block killing savathun and watching cayde die

dim minnow
#

our character is that guy

#

and to us, everyone else are regular guardians I presume

prime rover
#

huh

empty fern
#

I say we all actually know the exo stranger and she brought us all into one reality CATGRIN, that’s why we all have similar story moments

#

Trust OHyeSs me

hardy anvil
#

During the intro dialogue for Warlord's Ruin, Petra says "they have a history of eluding you" when referring to Crow not being able to detect a Ahamkara.

Was Perta referring to a past event related to Crow and what exactly is the context?
Or is she just meant it in general that they are cunning enough to elude even him?

fresh zephyr
#

referring to Uldren I guess

#

since he searched for an Ahamkara for Mara

smoky rose
# prime rover huh

The Guardian is your character. Everyone else is generic guardian #2014. Now from the POV of your fireteam member, THEY are the Guardian and YOU are the generic guardian

blazing wasp
#

You, the player, play as a established character called "the guardian"

#

Who is basically destiny's master chief

dim minnow
#

since Ahamkara bones remained after the Great Hunt

#

as well as Riven living in the Dreaming City in secret from the Vanguard

#

there is also an unconfirmed report of 7 Ahamkara killing their pursuers and surviving the Great Hunt

trim grotto
#

Little Lucky Lavinia walks out of the Cryptarchy with one
One being sold on a street corner
One hanging in the damned Tower

dim minnow
#

Spider having an intact Ahamkara brain in his collection

deep pagoda
#

Anyone got a picture on how the Ahamkara skull@fits the shape of the Ahamkara head
? (Riven). Looking at the two confuses me so much on how it fits and why there are tusks

#

Or the fake Ahamkara in the witch queen campaign.

dim minnow
deep pagoda
blazing wasp
trim grotto
#

There is an argument to be made that they may, but we really can't say there's a singular "true" form

dim minnow
#

their form changes based on those percieving them

trim grotto
#

However, that being said...

dim minnow
#

I think Riven was described to take a more cat-like (or was it griffin-like I don't remember) form when around Mara

deep pagoda
#

Skull of dire Ahamkara ornaments also depict the Riven and illusion face shape

#

I’m just so confused lol

#

So there true form could literally just be dragons with tusks?

trim grotto
#

Dozens of Ahamkara have crawled or flown or slithered across this platform since it was built. They had the power to change their shape, to reform themselves to match the expectation of their beholders. We expected nothing of them, and so they came as they were.

deep pagoda
#

And Rivens form is just some weird amalgamation she picked?

deep pagoda
dim minnow
#

we saw Riven as a monster, so I suppose her form was meant to match that

deep pagoda
#

Well this is good to know

#

Really makes me wonder what the real form is on the bones though

trim grotto
#

Simply put, there may not be a true form at all, expectations or otherwise.

deep pagoda
#

But for there to be bones that are the same between all Ahamkara there is a true form.

dim minnow
blazing wasp
#

theres ahamkara bones of varying shapes and sizes

dim minnow
#

also note that Ahamkara do have true voices

blazing wasp
#

skulls and everything

deep pagoda
blazing wasp
# deep pagoda But all in the same design

could be a coincidence, or something of the sorts, theres way too little information to imply they have a "true form" and i doubt shapeshifting dragons would care much for that

#

the similarities in design is more likely than not just bungie not wanting to spend a decade designing a billion different and wildly unique skulls

deep pagoda
blazing wasp
#

when an ahamkara dies, the form it died in seems to also be what the skull is

golden wolf
#

makes sense to me

blazing wasp
#

xol looking similar to every other worm god makes a lot of sense

deep pagoda
blazing wasp
#

we havent.

deep pagoda
#

What?

blazing wasp
#

but most are the same, likely simply due to lazyness

deep pagoda
#

The one above shax, the 3 you can trade with in the dreaming city, the baby ones you find in the dungeon and in the dreaming city & shattered throne

golden wolf
#

there is also just a cance that a collection of ahamkara looked very similar just because
I highly doubt there was a group meeting where they made sure they all looked very very different from eachother

blazing wasp
#

but riven and ||the new dungeon|| proves theres more than one type of skull

deep pagoda
#

Am I missing some?

blazing wasp
#

huh

#

did

#

did discord just delete my messages?

deep pagoda
golden wolf
#

also, best not to put so much scrutiny into environmental stuff like the skulls, this is a video game after all and to design a brand new skull/skeleton for every ahamkara would mean a brand new dev team at that point

blazing wasp
deep pagoda
#

Dungeon and dreaming city ones look indent I am to me imo

deep pagoda
blazing wasp
#

well, kinda

#

in her corpse

deep pagoda
#

That’s what I’ve been wondering is how the skull fits the shape of rivens face

blazing wasp
#

the reason for the similarities in skulls here is more likely than not laziness on bungies end, and to provide enviormental storytelling

golden wolf
#

also I highly doubt you can fit those tusks anywhere on riven or any of rivens face plates on those skulls realistically

blazing wasp
#

her head is much larger, and she has several rows of teeth

deep pagoda
#

Yeah that’s what got me so confused

#

Also didn’t know they could shape shift

golden wolf
blazing wasp
#

yea riven first showed up as like a uh

#

a snake i think?

#

or a serpent

#

it fit in uldrens hand

deep pagoda
#

What?

blazing wasp
#

when he showed it to mara for the first time

#

saladin also made a ahamkara he fought take the shape of actual dragon

#

like, a medieval dragon

deep pagoda
#

That’s dope

golden wolf
#

shape changers can change size as well, pretty sure the one from the dungeon shrunk down if the lore is anything to go off of to fit in the castle (I think? could be completely off idk :) )

blazing wasp
dim minnow
golden wolf
#

I need to find that art... damn

blazing wasp
#

maybe it was a lizard and not a serpent

#

i dont quite recall

golden wolf
#

ngl, the lore of the dungeon is the most interesting lore I've gotten into for a long time

blazing wasp
#

but it sure as shit wasnt like the riven we fought

dim minnow
golden wolf
#

lmao

#

thats amazing

dim minnow
#

Riven of like what... 10 voices?

golden wolf
#

Riven of a couple voices idk

devout nimbus
#

That's pretty cool

lost abyss
little gorge
empty fern
#

3 voices

#

Seems right

fiery copper
#

Does crow remember pre-collapse earth?

#

He has uldren's memories

#

And he was one of the original awoken

south temple
chrome fog
chrome fog
#

Orin before she was a Guardian notably had an urn of her mother’s ashes on the Exodus Green, and then promptly forgot about it when she became an Awoken and would never have known about it as a Guardian, even though Xur tried to give it to her and got his spine snapped in return, giving him his hunch

fiery copper
#

OH

#

THATS TRUE

#

Wait

#

No, she forgot about it because she was a guardian

chrome fog
fiery copper
#

Ahh

#

That's my B

chrome fog
empty fern
#

Poor xur

#

Who was it that was drifters companion that got turned into a nine agent?

#

Was it emissary?

ember storm
#

Orin?

empty fern
#

Was it orin?

ember storm
#

just look it up

outer dragon
empty fern
#

Well yea I know that

outer dragon
#

Orin is the Emissary

#

The Horse is StarHorse

empty fern
#

Indeed

prime rover
#

how did the wormgod shenanigans work

#

wormgods lied to hive about the traveler and all that, gave a few aspiring hive little baby worms, and the worms would feed off either their feats or the hive themselves?

worldly river
#

Technically the Worm Gods didn't lie about anything, the Witness lied to the Hive siblings about the Syzergy and Godwave, and the Traveler, in order to push the Hive to seek the Worm Gods

#

But yeah more or less the Hive siblings made a pact with the Worm Gods that the Hive would carry their larva, which would empower the Hive but require tribute via mostly violence, killing, and domination

#

Though the Worm Gods kinda lied by ommission about the fact that the larvas' hunger would never be satiated and would only grow, requiring more and more grand acts of violence to feed

#

If an individual Hive failed to provide tribute I believe it's worm would essentially consume the Hive's power instead, eventually killing the host

prime rover
#

would it ever grow out of a larva or is it just perpetually stuck in leech mode

#

and did they only give the worms to the siblings or did they give them willy nilly to more hive

#

was there a reason why those hive siblings specifically were chosen as well

worldly river
#

We don't really know whether or not the larvae eventually grow into work gods or not

#

If so then their life cycle must be astronomically long considering Savathun's worm was merely particularly plump compared to a normal worm when it was removed

#

every Hive has a worm though, it's what biologically changed them from Krill to the Hive as we know them now

ember storm
#

the worm parasites are their own organism

#

they’re not the same species

#

the worm gods effectively just make them

#

they’re not meant to grow or develop

worldly river
#

The siblings were probably only chosen because they were prime targets, children of the recently overthrown Osmium Dynasty with a grudge against their mother Taox and reason to seek power
That being said the dead worm familiar the Witness spoke through had been in their father's possession for some time and had whispered to him plenty so they were probably just the next best people after him when he died

prime rover
#

xol was a worm god right

worldly river
#

yes

#

the weakest and smallest one

prime rover
#

does he fit into the initial development arc

#

of the hive, i mean

#

or was he not involved

worldly river
#

He was there when the siblings met the Worm Gods yes, no additional Worm Gods were ever introduced after that meeting according to the Books of Sorrow

#

Though they never met Xita the Mother Worm in account of Rhulk taking her away before the siblings arrived

prime rover
#

did we ever get to see another worm god other than xol either ingame or in official art

#

or is it one of those like inconceivable horrors thing where even seeing one would probably kill you on the spot

worldly river
#

We briefly saw some in the Witch Queen cutscene where they reveal that the Witness lied to the Hive

#

They just looked like Xol but of indeterminate size, though according to lore one of them had wings I think

#

Oh also we see Xita in Vow of the Disciple

#

Or her corpse anyway, unsure how alive she is or isn't anymore

#

Oryx's Dreadnaught was made using Akka's corpse if that counts

#

Speaking of whom we do see Oryx fighting Akka depicted as statues in the boss room of the Lightblade strike

prime rover
#

were the worms given to the hive siblings any different from the ones they gave to the rest of the hive or did the siblings just feed them magnitudes more to become the way they did

#

i guess what im trying to get at is like

worldly river
#

same thing

prime rover
#

did any normal hive get close to as powerful as the siblings

#

or were there any siblings that didnt make it to the strength the others reached

worldly river
#

No it was just those three and nobody really came close except MAYBE Oryx's son Crota, and even he paled in comparison to Oryx himself

#

I don't know if there's any particular reason they were stronger outside having been the first and presumably having the best grasp of the Sword Logic, which they passed down to the rest of the Hive

#

Or maybe it was the nature of them being the ones who made the bargain in the first place

prime rover
#

whats like the power scale of hive goddery

#

i never really considered how strong each one was other than 'all of them are probably raid worthy'

worldly river
#

Oryx > Savathun/Xivu > Crota > Other Ascendant Hive

#

I think

#

The siblings had plenty of kids but idk if they were consistently stronger than other Ascendant Hive like Alak Hul or the Warpriest

#

Alak Hul's probably a contender for strongest after Crota (or with Crota?) given he was Oryx's foster son and tried to overthrow Oryx once

prime rover
#

this is neat info but this is comparing strength in the context of other hive gods' strength which doesnt really answer my question all that well since i dont have anything to sort of anchor all this together

#

like i know this hive god is strong compared to the other guy but i dont know how strong this particular hive god is himself

#

you get what im saying

fresh zephyr
#

The sword logic is basically kill to grow powerful right?

prime rover
#

i feel im explaining this awfully

fresh zephyr
#

so then would the guardians be performing something i call the shield logic, which is to be powerful and use it to protect?

worldly river
prime rover
#

yeah actually i think that would be the better way to do this

#

off i go then

worldly river
#

Basically just "kill to become strong" though that is a facet, it's also that the weak should die

#

Whereas we protect and shield the weak, sort of as you were getting at

main parcel
#

So what is the lore behind Gambit, and why is it Drifter's thing?

worldly river
#

The Nine like Drifter so they gave him a huge hunk of paracausal space rock called The Haul that can generate "counterfeit" Taken and has a gateway to a pocket dimension the Nine control, and tasked him with conducting Gambit to prepare Guardians for... Well, this confrontation we're currently in

#

Cuz the idea is we're utilizing Darkness by throwing Taken around, albeit in a very indirect from vs Stasis and Strand

main parcel
#

So it's basically a paracausal virtual reality simulation.

worldly river
#

Keep in mind the Gambit maps are in their actual locations, which is why you can see his ship and the Haul in the skybox

#

The pocket dimension was were we played Reckoning back when that was in the game

main parcel
#

I never played Reckoning. Only started playing Gambit this season (I'm enjoying it). Hence my interest in how it fitted into the lore.

chrome fog
#

Savathun’s own worm looks just like any other newborn one, and we tossed him in a heavy grenade launcher

chrome fog
#

All this to say, all three would probably scale the same, each would win in certain situations

prime rover
#

none of the siblings killed each other for more power before they each got their own throne world?

#

I'd think there would've been at least one sibling that got dogged on before they all got their respective respawn points

chrome fog
#

We have dialogue that insinuates we shot Uldren, the audio of the actual shot is purposefully mixed so that both the Ace and VestĂ­an shot could be heard (think yanny/laurel); better to think that we both shot Uldren

chrome fog
#

They’d all been working together until the point Oryx had to kill them for the power boost, after that Savathun asked if there was any other way, Oryx doubled down on the Sword Logic being their only salvation, and they each went their separate ways

#

I think it’s also the discovery of Throneworlds? I don’t recall exactly, but you can read about it in the Books of Sorrow

#

These are a collection of grimoire cards which basically detail the history of the Hive

prime rover
#

after they revive in throne worlds do they start back at zero as powerless hive or do they come back about as powerful as they died and just have to make back the power debt they lost to whoever killed them

#

oh neat

chrome fog
#

They’ll have lost some tithe but all they have to do is recover for a short period in their Throneworld and they’re about as powerful

prime rover
#

so they don't lose any meaningful amount of power by being killed?

chrome fog
#

However, the recovery period generally takes a long time, so Ascendent Hive generally try to not die despite having a Throneworld

prime rover
#

only a load of potential power they waste by needing to recover

chrome fog
#

Kelgorath is a special case, being able to nearly instantaneously return from his Throneworld after death, something even Oryx couldn’t achieve

prime rover
#

so power in sword logic in the universe isn't really a zero sum game

#

it'll just keep going up and up

#

that's a little outrageous

chrome fog
#

Yes, however your worm will demand more and more to feed upon

prime rover
#

what's the endgame for the worm gods anyways

#

with the worms I mean

#

like once all the power is eaten up what then

#

do they not think that far

chrome fog
# chrome fog Yes, however your worm will demand more and more to feed upon

Look at Savathun in the Season of the Splicer lore book, her deception of the City and everyone close to Osiris had given her a great amount of Tithe since she was enacting cunning and trickery, but her worm was getting more and more ravenous, which is why she opted to try and get her worm removed in Season of the Lost

chrome fog
#

Kinda similar to the Ahamkara in that they just mindlessly follow their nature idk, feel free to correct me waltz

ember storm
#

he just understands the fundamentals of sword logic so well he could very easily come back to the normal plane

#

his abilities aren’t special he just really really did a lot of homework

chrome fog
#

Was just in case it was brought up, this does add more detail to why he was able to game the Throneworld better than more powerful Ascendent Hive

prime rover
#

would the world ever really run out of tithe for the hive gods to live off of

#

because sav was the only one who gathered tithes in a way that didn't involve actually killing people right

#

and there's only so much killing you can do before there isn't much left to kill

chrome fog
#

They’re animals, they’re not necessarily thinking long term every time

#

Their whole symbiosis with the proto-hive was really the Witness’ machinations

#

Again, kinda just following their instincts, their nature

prime rover
#

the hive is the main source of the worm gods 'food' right

#

what did they do before the whole hive thing

#

were they just wandering like ahamkara giving random people who wanted power what they wanted

#

or do we not really know what happened before

chrome fog
#

Considering they haven’t made any deals with any other species, yes