📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

Even after considering how allegorical Unveiling is

[random flare]

Is there a difference between paracausality and acausality?

[blazing wasp]

Yes

Paracausality has a cause

It just doesn't operate on normal cause and effect

Acausality is impossible to justify even half assed within even fiction.

Because every effect is a cause, vice verca

[random flare]

So acausality is more OP? Huh, neat

[orchid wedge]

I wanna show you my new build :>

[jagged badge]

🤨

[random flare]

Wrong word, more like "more BS"

[blazing wasp]

Not inherently

Acausality just means no cause

No cause means no effect because effect is cause

Acausality is nothing

[jagged badge]

I’m pretty sure that’s not how it works

There are real life examples of acausal things, a brief Google search tells me

[blazing wasp]

There's many different meanings to the word

I took acausality as a "lack of cause" since it was in regards to paracausality

[jagged badge]

Radioactive decay is apparently acausal

[blazing wasp]

Huh, p cool actually

Some could say

It's pretty

Rad

[chrome fog]

Generally acausality is applied to processes we don’t know the explanation for, but we usually find a way to describe why they happen

[ember storm]

death

[orchid wedge]

What’s your raid lore

Wals raid lore

Is finna be insane

[ember storm]

i am inside your home

[orchid wedge]

Yay

Come say hi

You want a piece of chicken?

[ember storm]

i am here to take your pantry

[orchid wedge]

I have no pantry

😄

[ember storm]

i am here to take your pantry

[orchid wedge]

I don’t have one

😄

[dim minnow]

"Time-Lost" ghost projection shows a Tree of Silver Wings growing on top of the Traveler

What did Bungie mean by this?

[jagged badge]

I got into an argument on Twitter with someone who couldn’t see how that was the Tree of Silver Wings

Very infuriating argument lmao

[trim grotto]

Show meee

[jagged badge]

The argument?

[orchid wedge]

I like it

[empty fern]

Seed

[tawdry mauve]

its also veil shaped

what did bungie mean by this

[dim minnow]

Just saying that Osiris literally said that the Veil and Traveler might have once been one being

[orchid wedge]

Big triangle

And circle

[ember storm]

just saying the veil is literally designed to resemble the tree of silver wings

[dim minnow]

The Veil also does resemble Egregire fungus a lot

[orchid wedge]

Bring back leviathan raids!!!!

So I can experience the 4 raids I missed

[dim minnow]

Spire of Stars areas in Haunted would have been nice

[orchid wedge]

Oh and bring back scourge of the past

So I can do that to

[orchid wedge]

I hate your raid lore Dovadah’s fall

[raven glen]

So is confirmed our guardian has intelligence? In the new scene of last wish it showed our gaurdian investigating ngl i always thought our gaurdian was low iq lmaooo

[trim grotto]

We also do raid encounters first try, in theory.

[empty fern]

So you know physrzia from avarice right? Apparently that’s the ogre that ikora beams down in wq, weird

[jagged badge]

Where have you got that from?

[empty fern]

Was doing the ritual weekly mission and when the ogre died, the points popped up with its name

[jagged badge]

I think it’s more likely this is just some technical stuff and not a lore thing

[empty fern]

Damnit

[gentle geyser]

Not every guardian is a titan

[empty fern]

Also why is avarice ogre sometimes just a small ogre?

[gentle geyser]

?

[empty fern]

?

[gentle geyser]

That’s normal sized to me

[empty fern]

Well yea, but pharyz was a little bigger right? About the size of the heresy ogres

[gentle geyser]

That still looks a bit bigger in the picture

[empty fern]

On another note, why were these ogres so powerful

[devout vine]

Perhaps a higher concentration or psychic connection was established to ogres from the pyramid

Thralls and ogres are generally underdeveloped in IQ so it would make sense for them to be the perfect vessels

Different circumstances but the Caretaker was scorn and feral, no regard for higher thinking so it communed easily with pyramid tech

[gentle geyser]

Or they are just big boys

[fiery copper]

They were really big

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-breath-in-inhale-gif-11964324

[empty fern]

Wait

Alksis was the archon priest from that one Venus strike?

[dim minnow]

Heresy

[dim minnow]

No, you are thinking of Aksor

[empty fern]

Ah

Damn

[dim minnow]

Aksis is the guy who leads the Devil Splicers

[ashen tiger]

The witness looks like the alien from American dad

Roger

[empty fern]

K

[fast tapir]

but does he have super strong legs? we will find out!

[gentle geyser]

You mean

Stereotypical alien?

[chrome fog]

Large white cranium, I can see it if people see the Megamind comparison

[urban light]

do we know anything about who built the pyramids and the traveler?

are they just fundamental entities in the universe without a creator

im confused

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CKckjryVI&t=6s

[urban light]

okay this half answers my questions I suppose

[fresh zephyr]

That's what we know

rest is unknown

[urban light]

unfortunate

[empty fern]

Kek

[urban light]

pretty wild that the focal point of the universe we've beein enjoying for the past 10 years is entirely unknown

thx Bungie I guess

Idk, maybe it never needs an answer

maybe its better that way, im not sure

[chrome fog]

The other half can supposedly be answered with “The traveler is the Gardener who created the Destiny universe as we know it” but the source for that is Unveiling, which should be taken with a grain of salt

It’s sort of like asking who made God, but there’s a lot of misinformation from the pile of nihilistic suicide corpses that is the Witness

[urban light]

True. Most agree the gardener is a metaphor

[chrome fog]

I mean. Ahsa also calls her the Gardener, and if it were a metaphor then it’d still be relaying the idea that the Traveler was at least in-part responsible for creating the universe as it is

[dim minnow]

I'm still under the impression that Unveiling is an allegory for what the Witness saw through the Veil

[orchid wedge]

Brutiks, is one of the hardest bosses I’ve fought alone

[jagged badge]

It’s intentional storytelling. The Traveler is the most intriguing mystery of our universe so they’re gonna save a reveal like that for a big moment

[ember storm]

content

[fiery copper]

I just realized a couple days ago why Roger is in American dad, a show about absurd american stereotypes

He's an illegal alien

[ember storm]

so what's the deal with the fucking fish

[dim minnow]

He is meant to represent Variks

This is hinted at due to the fact that they both share the same voice actor

[exotic cloak]

There is stories of guardians telling their Ghosts not to resurrect them?

[ashen tiger]

guys wtf is this I made a spiral car go and now im here

[vernal flax]

Real

[empty fern]

Vow moment

[chrome fog]

Ok but allegory for what? (Sorry for being miffed for a minute here) I’ve seen people say Unveiling should be discounted because of it being an anecdotal metaphor for something, but like. “The creation of the universe and staging of the celestial conflict you are now a part of” is what the allegory is standing for. Otherwise, it’s two gardening bros getting really heated over their poetically described gardening game

[blazing wasp]

A allegory for society

He's space joker

[chrome fog]

Two people in a garden, one shanks the other because they want to change things up, the worms and bugs and some of the plants are personified but don’t play a big part other than allusion to the Vex, the Ahamkara, and the Worm Gods

“It’s a metaphor” yeah it is, do you know how much metaphor is intertwined with literal action in Destiny

“Guardians make their own Fate”, one of the more significant taglines in the franchise, is a metaphor mixed with literal events, because on one hand it’s a nice motivational quote for how we get to choose how we go about life but also we literally culled the predictions of a Time Machine, made Golden Guns without a connection to the Light, made a “no u” card for erasing our existence from the timeline, made the impossible possible

We literally make our own fate

We hold the power of the sun in our hands not only because we have will and determination to make what we want reality, but we also literally control fission and fusion in our palms with Solar

[empty fern]

Wonder how those city kids are doing in that last dodgeball match shaxx had

[chrome fog]

I hope they win

[empty fern]

Doubt it

Maybe

[chrome fog]

i love the implication that the dodgeball match has been continuously going on and not that they’re playing multiple matches

[empty fern]

The forever dodgeball

[chrome fog]

“This is how it is to be a Guardian, children! Now you better hit me once or you’re all getting hit in the face!!!”

[empty fern]

I doubt shaxx is cruel enough to hit them in the face

[outer dragon]

[trim grotto]

Welcome to the sunken Pyramid of Rhulk, Disciple of the Witness.

[ember storm]

a shame you can’t properly witness THE UPENDED in its intended glory

[peak coral]

THE APPENDED
A TITLE SUITABLE FOR THAT WHICH EXTENDS

sorry i meant

THE UPENDED
A TITLE SUITABLE FOR THAT WHICH TURNS WORLDS UPSIDE DOWN

[jagged badge]

THE UPENDED

A TRIUMVIRATE

[empty fern]

Wait, is averrok the same as avrok from the vita brevis sparrow lore?

[jagged badge]

Well considering they have different names, and ones a boss from what’s really more of a gimmicky joke dungeon, I’d say no

[empty fern]

Damn

[ruby pivot]

inhales THE UPENDED

oh question about the hive gods or worm gods? (are they same or no? )

besides the trio siblings

anyway in the hive homeworld did the worm gods already exists and trying to tempt the hive or the pyramid put them there to tempt the hive to join the dark dorito gang

[trim grotto]

i couldn't be bothered writing it so

here ya go

[ruby pivot]

byf?

[trim grotto]

_>

[ruby pivot]

its ok byf i understand you wanna hide yourself

[trim grotto]

<_<

[ruby pivot]

anyway jokes aside, the explanation is clear thanks for that man

[trim grotto]

oh that's good! i thought i kinda started rambling a bit. it is late and i am sleepy.

[ruby pivot]

all good man

the points were there

[umbral dagger]

so

that dude in the black garden

thats not the witness i think

i think it the veil

[blazing wasp]

"that dude"?

you mean at the end of the garden of salvation?

[umbral dagger]

not the raid, the story dlc for

when you meet yourself

and it offers salvation

[trim grotto]

That was the Witness.

[blazing wasp]

like no sings point to it being the veil, a lot to the witness

[umbral dagger]

but maya heard a voice telling her about the veil too

[blazing wasp]

pyramid of the witness' command, after the witness invited us in

[umbral dagger]

it was herself she heard, offering salvation

[blazing wasp]

talks about "salvation" being something the witness would absolutely do

speech pattern extremely similar to the witness

[trim grotto]

And physical mannerisms

[blazing wasp]

yea

also "do you not recognize us? we are your salvation"

[umbral dagger]

yes

but then who was it who spoke to mara?

[blazing wasp]

Only a single "individual" presents themselves as "us"

[umbral dagger]

the voice in the veil

[blazing wasp]

the witness

that could be the veil, doesnt automatically mean that the veil spoke to us in the shadowkeep campaign

[umbral dagger]

follow me for a sec

[blazing wasp]

if we use that single point as evidence, we can also assume both of these earlier conversations were from the traveler

which would be even weirder.

[umbral dagger]

the nightmares, crow specifically

[blazing wasp]

because the traveler already did something like this

[umbral dagger]

come from the moon pyramid

[blazing wasp]

The defence mechanism of nezarecs pyramid yes

[umbral dagger]

which is where the veil was

[trim grotto]

Not strictly the Luna Pyramid, but generally.

The Europan Pyramid also produced Nightmares.

[blazing wasp]

was, but hasnt been for a while

[blazing wasp]

true

dont believe the veil ever was there

[umbral dagger]

so if crow has other crows, and mara heard mara....

and us saw us

the thread is there dudes

[trim grotto]

What? Nightmares are manifestations of trauma.

[blazing wasp]

you could use this information to also conclude that this was all the traveler.

because that's a equally strong thread

[umbral dagger]

yeah

the ghosts ect

[trim grotto]

Crow saw Uldren, not himself, because he had those traumatic memories. Most Nightmares are of other people. The link doesn't work there.

[blazing wasp]

so you're telling me the travelerer is the veil and that spoke to us uldren and mara?

[umbral dagger]

same thing dude

[trim grotto]

No, it isn't.

[umbral dagger]

crow is crow is crow

[blazing wasp]

Not according to psychology which destiny's guardians and them not being their earlier life directly draws from

[trim grotto]

Nightmares are manifestations of trauma used as a weapon. Crow seeing Uldren isn't a connection to the vision of the Black Garden.

[umbral dagger]

crow is just his anime passive weeb self

[blazing wasp]

yknow the psychological theory that's one of the most renowned and verified in all of human history

that one

[umbral dagger]

ok forget the nightmares, but regardless its there to manipulate

[blazing wasp]

what makes a "you" is only partially inherent, what you're born with

[umbral dagger]

same as the black garden dude

[blazing wasp]

but if your memory is truly erased, a part of you dies, psychologically

[umbral dagger]

why did the witness just not appear as himself?

why appear as us?

no really, logic check

[blazing wasp]

Likely to make us more at ease, the witness did try to make us join them

so did rhulk

[umbral dagger]

but we arnt gonna join an idea we dont know

[blazing wasp]

thats why they wanted to present themselves as us

if our first impression is less hostile

[umbral dagger]

i dunno man

[blazing wasp]

"ayo look me its me im pretty chill we're pretty chill come hang out"

[umbral dagger]

i dont think its the witness

[blazing wasp]

i'm not sure why you're even having this discussion when you're already deadset on an answer regardless of evidence

[trim grotto]

It has the exact same physical and vocal mannerisms as the Witness and was immediately followed by the arrival of the Black Fleet.
Also, it didn't appear as the Witness because they hadn't designed the Witness yet.

[blazing wasp]

that latter part is more likely

[trim grotto]

The Veil whispered a single word into Maya's head and never presented an avatar

Whereas the Witness has appeared in many forms to manipulate many people

[blazing wasp]

yknow who also whispered words into peoples heads, their dreams even

[umbral dagger]

yeah but everyone thought X until Y, then Y until Z

[blazing wasp]

the traveler, the veil is the traveler

[umbral dagger]

every new dlc people change opinions

[blazing wasp]

due to newly presented evidence

we've been given more and more conclusive evidence

[umbral dagger]

whats ''fact'' now is likely hogwash

[blazing wasp]

initial theories and takes on it lacked evidence and was speculative

what talked with us being the witness is at the moment very little speculative

given an overwhelming evidence in support of it

your theory has one single evidence, the traveler being the one saying it has more evidence supporting it

[trim grotto]

Alright, but there is significantly more narrative flow and character design similarities connecting the Witness to the cutscene, not to mention it tracks with prior and post Witness behaviour. The evidence weighs heavily in favour of "it is the Witness."

On the other hand, the Veil said salvation once.

[umbral dagger]

what if its the thing that manipulated the witness?

[blazing wasp]

and im relatively sure that if i presented the latter one to a lore community i'd be hunted for sport.

[umbral dagger]

is what im getting at

[trim grotto]

well sure that's possible

but that's a different story altogether

[blazing wasp]

That's possible, but also speculative

all we really know is that the witness' civilization found the veil after thinking the traveler was kinda cringe for not guiding them, and wanted to link the two to do what they're doing right now

if the veil convinced them of this and is actually the one in controll, or if it's entierly a neutral force, or if it's even sentient at all (or the degree of sentience it displays) is all something we cant really conclude

we can speculate, but we have little to nothing to be sure

[umbral dagger]

if the traveller is form/creation
and the veil is thought/ideas/memories
then directly combining them could wipe out the universe surely

someone could just think it and it would happen

or create like 4040240283 planets, then destory them, ect ect

idk

throwin poo at the wall here

[blazing wasp]

That's a oversimplification of what the witness is doing ye

In short, witness think universe is cringe, they know what's pog, they're making that happen in the traveler

[umbral dagger]

the witness is trying to shove everyone into himself?

i totally get those witness culture dudes logic tbh

but tbh they went too far

[blazing wasp]

what's the saying? Hell is paved with good intentions

[umbral dagger]

i think i get it now, the darkness is not evil, just the witness guys saw the possiblilty for pure destruction and wanted to take on themselves to shape it all, to prevent pain

hm

i wanna the the vex just wanna destory everything, but thats not correct

or they do?

if so really the vex is an actual evil, the witness is just on a big ass mission for the greater good

[jagged badge]

The Vex went to make the universe Vex

Convert everything

[umbral dagger]

so the same kind of thing maybe as the final shape, just by different means

so the vex and the witness guys came to the same conclusion? the vex also worshipped the black heart thing

[jagged badge]

The Vex didn’t really worship it

[umbral dagger]

i wonder if one group influenced the other

since darkness can be shaped by thought

[jagged badge]

The Vex saw what the Hive did and tried to achieve the same result. Worship = power

[umbral dagger]

sword logic?

[jagged badge]

The Vex just want power for their goals, whereas the Hive actually have genuine religious beliefs

[umbral dagger]

hm

hold up

so

whats the black garden?

if the pale heart is like a garden world too.. then..

are they connected?

[jagged badge]

Our previous understanding was the Black Garden was the Garden from Unveiling

However we don’t know the legitimacy, or the extent of the legitimacy, of Unveiling

[umbral dagger]

seems more like a witness myth story

about traveller and veil

but these two garden places are things

whats the story about the flower game?

i gotta find that

[jagged badge]

It’s spread across multiple entries of Unveiling

You can read it in game or on Ishtar Collective

[umbral dagger]

just reading it on wiki

As the Light and Darkness played the flower game, a particular self-sustaining pattern would always emerge which ended up dominating the entire game. The Darkness found this to be a pleasing outcome, but the Light was irritated by it, desiring that the game produce endless novel patterns instead. In order to achieve their desired result, the Light made itself into a new rule within the game that would promote diversity and complexity; the Darkness did the same, becoming a rule that enforced simplicity.

As the Light and Darkness fought with one another, the patterns that had previously dominated their games escaped into the nascent universe, where they eventually became the Vex.

one context might be this took place when the witness dudes tried to combine the veil with the traveller

maybe then both gardens were connected for a short time

and thus the vex born in simulation

then boom traveller leaves, infact this lines up pretty well in all contexts

[blazing wasp]

Do note that the wiki is notorious for being untrustworthy and inconsistent at times

Using that as a source is what teachers think Wikipedia is in regards to reliability, except it actually holds merit

[jagged badge]

That being said, that is in fact an accurate summary of the Flower Game from Unveiling

It’s just that Destinypedia is prone to mistakes and personal interpretations sometimes

Like how Veekris became Eramis

[umbral dagger]

if... and its a big if.... if the traveller and the darkness both put themselves inside the flower game, then hypothetically the traveller might be inside the pale heart, and the darkness inside the black garden, going off the idea i said

like.. as forms.. a person or object or something

The nature, origin and purpose of the Black Garden remains shrouded in mystery. According to Pujari, the Garden is a reflection of the Traveler's actions: when it terraformed Mars, the Garden either came to be or changed in response. The mesa-like structure in the center of the Garden strongly resembles the Cradle left behind by the Traveler on Io, which was also seemingly a product of the Traveler's terraforming activities.

is this exact same thing not going on in the pale heart too?

weve seen it in trailers

the destiny 1 tower

and other places

so the gardens can change, i think overall the flower game, and the black garden, and the pale heart, are all related to a simulation test by the witness dudes when combining the traveller to the veil, the traveller got salty and dipped, breaking the gardens, and releasing the vex somehow

https://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Destiny-2-Season-of-Arrivals-guide-Interference-weekly-quest-pinnacle-.jpg

whats this?

[jagged badge]

The Tree of Silver Wings

[umbral dagger]

https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/64a375dc5ac43c68b5b4ddd4/veil/960x0.jpg?format=jpg&width=960

The Tree of Silver Wings is a mysterious entity referred to by multiple sources, typically in association with either the Black Garden or the metaphorical "garden" allegorically used to describe the state of reality predating the universe.

literally confirming the two are one and the same

[ember storm]

again, you're reading off the wiki

the wiki confirms nothing

there are multiple trees of silver wings in existence

[fiery copper]

Destinypedia is made of people's opinions and interpretations, it should not be taken as fully canon, and it's best to read the lore being interpreted before you start interpreting it or deciding someone else's interpretation is fact.

[umbral dagger]

im really just pulling quotes

and whats generally understood

[umbral dagger]

yeah.. but that does not discredit anything ive said

sorry, you gonna have to do more work than ''but the wiki can be wrong, so therefore you are too''

[ember storm]

it does because you just claimed it’s “literally confirmed” by skimming off the wiki article

the article doesn’t even confirm that

[umbral dagger]

of those two specific cases

[ember storm]

it literally says or

[umbral dagger]

of those two soecific cases

not the other trees

[ember storm]

as in the black garden and unveiling’s garden are two separate things

[umbral dagger]

im beginning to doubt that

i think its the exact same thing

[ember storm]

Unveiling literally says outright that the garden is a metaphor

I don’t know what you want

[umbral dagger]

i can pull quote after quote that seems to backup what im saying

[umbral dagger]

yeah... thats like... the whole point

im saying i think the black garden and the pale heart were/are the same thing, and was a simulation ran by someone, which was the flower game, likely the witness people, then the traveller left.

[chrome fog]

… I will say, technically going off of what some of us have concluded, that would be correct, but the journey there was scuffed

As the Black Garden is cited to be a simulation of where the Vex came from - which would supposedly be the Garden of Unveiling - and while we don’t have any hard citation of where the Witness is, we’re assuming it’s in the same Garden as well; though it can also be described that it went into the Pale Heart but again no direct citation of what happened, just that it made a portal on the Traveler and went inside

[umbral dagger]

im wondering if the ghost(light) going into the veil recreated the link between the gardens or something

[chrome fog]

There’s also other lore entries such as MK Stand Asides which attribute gardening and winnowing as actions of the same entity, with more entries to support a theory of the Winnower and Gardener being one and the same - which we can also draw to the Veil and Traveler because the Traveler is literally the Gardener and the Veil is a similar entity that has a connection to her - but again there hasn’t been anything concrete; Unveiling was given to us by the Witness and is most likely meant to mess us up, the Winnower might be a concept it made up from its own biased interpretation of the origins of the universe

[chrome fog]

It recreated the link between the Veil and the Traveler/Gardener as the Witness attempted millennia ago, according to Ahsa’s inkblot cutscene, which is what the Witness was aiming for to make it so it could define the purpose of existence

The Black Garden individual was most certainly the Witness, the mannerisms of speech and it’s over familiarity with us despite never meeting prior point towards that conclusion

Plus it had none of the signifies of a Nightmare - red and black miasma was not present around it; the Veil by the time of Shadowkeep would have been on Neomuna for at the very least a couple centuries

Savathun took it from Nezarec’s pyramid and hid it on Neptune, then the Neomuna colonists discovered it and Maya Sundaresh studied it

[fiery copper]

"The wiki is wrong most of the time, so you are probably wrong"

[chrome fog]

It is an issue of a poisoned well; inconsistent information source is more likely to make your argument less sound

Autocorrect WHY

Also swear to Traveler, Freak better not peddle his conspiracy shit after this

[umbral dagger]

im not sure the wiki even is wrong tho? it seems to be putting things forward very neutrally

often its quotes from the game

not sure how that can be wrong

[chrome fog]

Anyways, Maya and a select few study the Veil, it speaks to her and tells her “Salvation” and then she starts to exhibit the same patterns of behavior as the Witness sort of, though the most that culminates from this is the Veil killing all Exos in its vicinity and Maya performing an experiment to merge a mindscan of her brain with that of the now dormant minds of the Exos into one entity - similar to the ritual that made the Witness as we now know it - which culminates in Lakshmi-2

[chrome fog]

The non-quotation descriptions of stuff on their lore pages are very often influenced by the self-interpretation of the editors and they have a history of getting things wrong.
Note: the “Veeriks, Baroness of the Shipstealers” to “Eramis, Shipstealer” incident, because one individual misheard Baroness as Eramis

There’s other examples, but I’m not well versed

[umbral dagger]

i mean its a wiki, nobody is perfect

[chrome fog]

It’s enough to not trust it as a citable source

If you want quotes, Ishtar Collective

Or DLV

[fiery copper]

It is far less than perfect

[umbral dagger]

but people are just disinguenouly using the wiki thing to shut me up basically

[fiery copper]

??

No?

[umbral dagger]

rather than actually contributing towards the discussion

[fiery copper]

I'm telling you to read the actual lore and make your own interpretations instead of using a wiki that ANYONE can edit

[umbral dagger]

i already have?

thats what im doing?

[chrome fog]

Star, that’s not the best way to go about this

[umbral dagger]

its ONLY you guys who are pushing that narrative

i dont have destiny installed

one quick look on the wiki for black garden is not me not doing research

[chrome fog]

We’ve already told you why your conclusions are wrong - note the Shadow person being the Veil thing not being the case - but then you cite from the wiki as support for your argument when it’s just not the case when looking and broader patterns across the narrative

[granite hill]

Hey, I have a question about the lore of the game. I’m a newer player who never finished playing d1. I’ve wanted to learn more about the lore before i do anything other than crucible. Is that necessary? I know of some Destiny books that are really expensive and nice

[chrome fog]

A la the shadow person has more in common with the Witness than the Veil, who’s only really had one interaction with anything else and has otherwise been a standing McGuffin

[umbral dagger]

which conclusion was wrong again? when was this said?

the dude in the black garden being the witness?

[fiery copper]

Learning about the lore isn't necessary, but it's a good story and I like it :)

You also don't need to buy the books, there's a website called Ishtar Collective that archives every lore tab in the game.

[umbral dagger]

i just doubt it thats all

theres not enough infomation one way or another

yet im ''instantly'' wrong

[chrome fog]

It’s not really necessary, if you’d like Ishtar has all entries for every item - pulling from the api - but otherwise you can go in and just experience the story and then ask us for clarification

[umbral dagger]

what if im right?

i can see now this place has nothing to do with lore

at all

[chrome fog]

This, and the Crow being the same as Uldren, when Crow is not the same person

[umbral dagger]

its just an ego playground

[fiery copper]

Adding onto this, the best lore to start with would probably be the various grimoire cards on the different factions, just to get a basic overview. Once you're done scrolling through random ones, you can check out the Books of Sorrow for what's basically the Hive Bible.

[granite hill]

Cool. Also, what is the best way to experience the game? Do i just follow objective? The game isnt super clear about what i should do next some of the time

[umbral dagger]

yeah, what i was trying to say is i think its our shadow

[chrome fog]

There should be quests that guide you

[umbral dagger]

our mind

not the witness

but anyways im done

[chrome fog]

… why would it be telling us it’s our salvation

[fiery copper]

Oh destiny SUCKS at telling you what to do. Ikora in the tower should have some quests, same with Shaw Han in the cosmodrome.

[umbral dagger]

why would maras?

[chrome fog]

What is the consistency with that conclusion?

[umbral dagger]

why does it have to be the witness?

maybe the same thing happened to them?

[fiery copper]

The flashback missions are also a good starting point for learning things ingame and not having to go to external sources.

[chrome fog]

The Pyramid tech surrounding us in the Black Garden and the posture and manner of speech which the shadow speaks is parallel to the Witness

And give me a minute on the Mara one, I’m not familiar with that one

[umbral dagger]

''because it sounds a bit like him''

THATS the argument?

and because it does the same hand thing

jesus

[chrome fog]

Is it a Nightmare, does it have the same energy as the Nightmares which distinctly have the red and black miasma

There’s a clear visual language to denote what something is in Destiny

[umbral dagger]

sure it might not be the exact same thing

but i feel

it oesent matter honestly i cant be bothered

[empty fern]

What we talking about?

[fiery copper]

Because they speak in the same mannerisms, are intensely related to the darkness, are obsessed with salvation, and even have the same hand-triangle pose, AND immediately after our first meeting, THAT'S when we first start getting pages of Unveiling.

[umbral dagger]

i think its the darkness

not the witness

imo

[chrome fog]

Viggy is suggesting the Shadow clone in the end of Shadowkeep is the Veil rather than the Witness, uuuhhh to be real I am burnt out from doing thanksgiving cooking

[umbral dagger]

well.. i think its just us, ourselves

darkness/memory

[fiery copper]

The darkness is a force. That's like saying you talked to gravity or nuclear fusion.

[chrome fog]

Voice in the Darkness has been the Witness, it’s a neutral force otherwise without its influence; Strand is proof for this

[chrome fog]

Simmer abit

[umbral dagger]

see... its this kind of stuff

[empty fern]

Yea twin in shadowkeep does have all the witnessy features, gangs signs, talks weird, and shows up at the end

[fiery copper]

The witness is even called "THE voice in the darkness" implying that the darkness itself doesn't have its own voice

[umbral dagger]

oh so it cant talk because that would be stupid, but can somehow get the thought to a mouthpeice

gotcha

logic check

[fiery copper]

The voice in the darkness, not the voice OF the darkness

[empty fern]

Yep

[fiery copper]

It "wears darkness like a cloak"

[umbral dagger]

a voice is still communicating

[fiery copper]

Yes

[umbral dagger]

you compared talking to a force ridiculous a few moments ago

[chrome fog]

Then there would be an instance of ourselves working against what we’ve been doing all this time within the same timeline; the memory that Darkness pulls from is what has or will exist, not an alternative version of ourselves who suggests a different way about things

[umbral dagger]

now your saying it can be done

which is it

[fiery copper]

Yes

[fiery copper]

No

[umbral dagger]

so how is the witness doing it

[empty fern]

Witness planet tech

[fiery copper]

The Witness is talking on its own, while using Darkness as the force it is.

[umbral dagger]

im done here

[empty fern]

Aight

[chrome fog]

To more politely put it in words, Darkness is of memory and the mind, right? So through Darkness, the Witness “speaks” telepathically or however and influences others who try to access it to follow their command

Star, please simmer

[umbral dagger]

dude

im done

[empty fern]

Aight

Anyways

[chrome fog]

My head hurts man

Last night’s shift, not having enough stuff for my thing, and then this

[empty fern]

Back to dead chat or dragon egg speculation

[chrome fog]

Transwrongs, please stop attacking people that want to know stuff, please

There’s a nicer way to say things

[empty fern]

(Shhhh it was 1 emote)

2*

[chrome fog]

(More than that, I appreciate the fervor but i could describe their defense of lore as zealous)

[empty fern]

(Fair enough) NOW GIMME EGG LORE

egg

Or go eat thanksgiving leftovers, idk

[sand ibex]

Ahamkara Egg Omelette

[chrome fog]

Making a liddle pastry thing but we didn’t get more jelly/jam for it so I got a bit frustrated

[empty fern]

F

[chrome fog]

Made it work but I wish I was told why we were skimping on the topping

[umbral dagger]

sadly i actually dont have anywhere else to get this info, so im forced to ask here

who moved the veil to neptune?, why, how? when? ect

is this a dlc i can play currently?

[sand ibex]

Pretty sure it was Savathun

[dull raft]

Savathun moved it, around the time of the collapse by her trickery and murder of Nezarec

[umbral dagger]

she took that after betraying the dude in moon pyramid right?

yh

[chrome fog]

Savathun was suspicious of the Witness’ plan of “Salvation”, so she set up some plays to ensure the Witness wouldn’t be able to succeed

She trapped Rhulk in his own pyramid, as well as thwarted the assault on Earth by killing Nezarec and hiding the Veil

As for the method

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Magicks

She was, of course, correct in her assumption because of the Witness were to succeed, we’d be born into constant strife to essentially uphold “Might makes Right” but as a fundamental law of reality, or the Witness could go full scene kid who’s committing to the bit and erased everything from existence

[umbral dagger]

is that what they are after?

final shape

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[umbral dagger]

is to unmake everything?

[chrome fog]

Final Shape has a superfluous definition, but essentially it’s how whoever wants the world, the universe, to be shaped

For the Witness, that’s ti make it so that all prove their existence through strife, through the Sword Logic

[umbral dagger]

then there cant be anymore chaos ect

[chrome fog]

That you kill others to prove you deserve to live more than them

[chrome fog]

Exactly

Pinnacle of nihilistic thought, which makes sense after they reached peak of civilization development with the blessings of the Traveler

[umbral dagger]

the darkness was pleased by this outcome, the witness wants it, the vex were molded by it too

[chrome fog]

Darkness is just a force

Witness spoke through it because mind powers and shit

But it’s as neutral as the Light

Also this is my citation for why the Witness does shit
https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?si=55MDmwBGc1XylbrB

[umbral dagger]

ive seen it yeah

it reminds me of wish dragons a bit

they wanted hope

[chrome fog]

The Ahamkara?

[umbral dagger]

no, the witness dudes hoped for change

thought/darkness

then the traveller help them

[chrome fog]

Mmmm

[umbral dagger]

but the wish dragons can do both

dark and light

if darkness is thought, and light is creating that thought

[chrome fog]

The Ahamkara are the Wish Dragons, they feed specifically off of desire

[umbral dagger]

"They learned the rules that governed which patterns would flourish in the game, and which would dwindle.
They learned those rules, because they were those rules.
And in time the gardener became vexed."
— The Darkness

trying figure this one out

[chrome fog]

That’s the Witness speaking

[umbral dagger]

did the vex cheat

[chrome fog]

Kinda? Think of importing a save from another game; the Vex a naturally occurring… civilization? Entity? Race? That comes about and basically dominates the universe at the end of its existence

This is, of course, before the rules of Paracausality were introduced, so it makes sense why beings who spread themselves through memetic fluid could dominate the natural universe

(Again, sourcing from Unveiling but also I think there’s entries that support this)

[umbral dagger]

i just think the simulations were in the black garden but they somehow escaped

[chrome fog]

The Black Garden is a simulation of the Garden - supposedly - they made it themselves

It was made with the help of the Black Heart, which the Witness gave to them

I think

I’m certain I’m on the right line of thought, very tuckered out but trying

[umbral dagger]

what does ''And in time the gardener became vexed.'' mean?

really not ggetting that line

[empty fern]

Vexxed as in the verb?

Like vexing?

Think it’s another word for mad

[umbral dagger]

this one

[empty fern]

Yea Gardners just mad

[umbral dagger]

it sounds so close to vex, and the subject matter is about them

maybe its a bad joke

[chrome fog]

The Vex kept winning the Flower Game - which is basically a running bet to see whether a dominant species or a confederation of many different species will be present at the end of the universe.
The Gardener wasn’t pleased with the Vex constantly being the end state of the universe because damn that shit boring. She then introduced the rules of Paracausality - parallel cause aka magic - to change things up but then something happened and she is now a part of the game itself

[empty fern]

It’s just a coincidence

[chrome fog]

You were close to the dot, yeah it’s basically a pun on why the Vex are named as such

[umbral dagger]

-but then something happened and she is now a part of the game itself

she inserted herself into the game right?

i heard

or read

or something

or myth

[empty fern]

or ||you clicked||

[chrome fog]

The game is reality

But for real, that is exactly what it is, she got reduced, cut down from whatever position she was in, and entered our universe as the Traveler

[umbral dagger]

but they say the vex were born in the black garden?

meaning

[chrome fog]

The Black Garden is a simulation of the Garden they came from

Which itself is some birthplace of universes, supposedly

As much as Waltz would debate me on the literal and figurative nature of what the Flower Game is

[umbral dagger]

the only thing it could be is the veil imo

im still gonna still to the idea the black garden was the flower game

[chrome fog]

The Veil is a black box for all conscious thought in the universe

I will admit I’m not versed in Vex lore

[empty fern]

Who is

[chrome fog]

Uh @dim minnow I hope you’re up, help?

[chrome fog]

Mars but they’re gone

[empty fern]

Oh yea

(I don’t think I ever met them)

[umbral dagger]

ok just hold on for one moment here one second

[chrome fog]

They’ve taken a break from the game and the community because…. Well, you saw the community’s reaction to Lightfall

[umbral dagger]

the guy who offers us salvation who is us, was he in the black garden?

[chrome fog]

No, the Black Garden is not sentient

[umbral dagger]

where was that place?

[chrome fog]

Oh wait I misread

Shit

Yeah it was in the Black Garden

[umbral dagger]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kCcTiD6Jb1E/maxresdefault.jpg

[chrome fog]

Yeah Black Garden

[umbral dagger]

i guess it is the witness for sure

becaus the pyramids

[chrome fog]

Ye

They also do the purses hands thing

[umbral dagger]

so... thats in his ship tho right?

[chrome fog]

Where they made a triangle with em, y’know?

[umbral dagger]

how did our character get there again?

[chrome fog]

Black Garden is kinda hard to explain; it’s on another plane of reality similar to the Ascendent Plane - all Vex Network areas are - but then I don’t have a good explanation as to how or why the Pyramids are there other than to signify their approach on the Sol System

[umbral dagger]

i was just wondering if they are kind of phasing in because they are visable outside his throne room https://www.dexerto.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=3840,quality=75,format=auto/https://editors.dexerto.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/20/Who-is-The-Witness-in-Destiny-2.jpg

[chrome fog]

Then again, Black Garden is supplanted with paracausal/ascendent energy from the Black Heart itself, so it’s an outlier

[chrome fog]

Who’s throne room- oh yeah that’s right

[umbral dagger]

wondering if theres a overlap going on

unless they really are there

[chrome fog]

They have some sort of connection with the Pyramids, yes; they also seem capable of transporting to anywhere they desire, as they were able to appear before Calus in Lightfall, scolding him for not doing his job hard enough

[umbral dagger]

oh yeah

thats pretty powerful

he like shattered glass or time around him or something

calus was like.. phased into a box or dream

or something

then witness vanished

[chrome fog]

And the Black Garden was essentially only made due to its gift of the Black Heart to the Vex

[umbral dagger]

and the room was chill

so the witness and the vex have a relationship

but surely they would wipe eachother out

the vex are really dangerous

[chrome fog]

The Vex can’t do shit against Paracausality, it takes too many resources for too little effect

They can’t simulate it because it runs outside of the rules they know

[chrome fog]

Ie the rules they learned here are the entirety of physics as we know them now

And then Paracausality runs “parallel” to those rules, outside of them

Instead of using a starter and some fuel to make fire, we just summon it through the Light, etc etc

It’s why they want to learn how to simulate it, or at least that’s what Sol Divisive has been aiming for

When Savathun tricked Crota into opening a hole in Oryx’s Throneworld into the Vex Network, some of the Vex were able to simulate the Hive Worms around the battle field, which gave them a teensy amount of ascendent energy - they still could not simulate it however
This is the same incident in which Quria, Blade Transform, was Taken by Oryx, as in trying to simulate the Taken King, they had simulated earlier versions of Oryx - I think it was Auryx, though it could’ve been Aurash; Oryx then Took this simulated copy of his past self and thereby Took Quria, making them the first Taken Vex. The other Vex didn’t get anything from this other than another collective to watch out for aside from Sol Divisive, but I think some of what they simulated went into trying to create a replica of the Veil, which became the Black Heart

It was a failed experiment and the exact details escape me, but yeah that’s how the Vex got a handle of some Ascendent/paracausal power, however it was not able to be simulated still, so they just harvested it from the Black Heart by simulating other entities worshipping it and getting the attributed power by proxy

[umbral dagger]

that would mean the vex made the rules? the universe? i dunno

i can see them making the black garden

sure

[chrome fog]

It would not, they just know them very well enough to bend reality

[chrome fog]

They did, because it’s a simulation of the Garden

It’s not the Garden itself, otherwise we’d not be having such a hard time getting to where the Witness is

They used the ascendent power from simulating tributing to the Black Heart in order to make the Black Garden, as well as the Vault of Glass and many other experiments which literally threatened existence

[umbral dagger]

i think your going off of the pre universe stuff

i cant remmber which book thats from

but i think it could just be a myth

and the witness cutscene is the reailty of that

the new witness cutscene origins

[chrome fog]

Unveiling, and no this is from the Garden of Salvation lore as well as some other supplemental lore tabs

[umbral dagger]

thats the pain of destiny lore

its all over the pace

place

and you gotta unlock it in game, out of order

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily, as most of collections is filled out and we do have Ishtar Collective pulling entries from the API itself

Though yes, the order part is painful

[umbral dagger]

is that a site?

[chrome fog]

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[umbral dagger]

sweet, oh look the wiki which is wrong or something

is byf here?

[chrome fog]

PreviouslyOn isn’t updated, but Ishtar holds basically all the lore tabs and entries to ever exist in Destiny 1 and 2

[umbral dagger]

noice

[chrome fog]

Destinypedia’s good for pulling quotes, like you did, but if you take any of the summary or conclusions that they have on there it’s best to take them with a grain of salt

And Byf loves to spinfoil, but doesn’t do a great job of denoting when it’s just a theory and when it’s statement of fact

Trust me, this channel is the most well-read on the lore out of the entire server and it is a pain trying to source our knowledge exactly, which a wiki and a content creator who takes 5 minutes reading a 1 minute lore tab and explaining what you can already derive from the entry do not help with

Whenever he’s available, Mael is one of our best Cryptarchs and most well read on everything, Dova and Waltz are also good to listen to

[umbral dagger]

yeah im gonna stop you there

i have to disagree

while you have been polite

[empty fern]

[umbral dagger]

its all pretty much conjecture honestly, and here is no different

the only difference between here or any other place is how people behave

today has been proof of that to me

[empty fern]

K

[umbral dagger]

^ case in point

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

Would it make it worse if I said that the journey of the Young Wolf is as pick and choose as you’d like, as is the nature of Bungie’s encompassing Player character present in all their games?

[chrome fog]

Which ties into why that’s sort of the point when discussing the lore, as with as much scrutiny and analysis of what is said, what we can read, and what we can see, at the end of the day it can also be whatever the fuck you want

[umbral dagger]

ide rather find out what it is

not what i think it is

[chrome fog]

[umbral dagger]

but i do value interpretations

would rather have 1000 possible ones than 1 single right one

also

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/thumb/2/24/The_Black_Heart.jpg/1600px-The_Black_Heart.jpg

what exactly is this then?

[chrome fog]

Yeh Black Heart

We destroy it at the end of D1

[umbral dagger]

we killed in destiny 1

yup

vex worshiped it

they were OLD

and awoke from a slumber

[chrome fog]

Yeah, I did say they basically entered the universe at the beginning

Oh wait I didn’t whoops

But also yeah they just sort of popped themselves in the beginning, the theory of how I can’t recall rn

[umbral dagger]

if they can control time they could just go back to the future or something

so why make this? why they need the veil?

[chrome fog]

They can but also can’t

It’s all simulations

[umbral dagger]

because sava hide the real one?

[chrome fog]

This^

Magic got introduced and they can’t simulate it

They make stuff act like it but it’s all magician’s tricks

Paracausality is outside their understanding, they don’t think as we do

[umbral dagger]

haha dum vex

[chrome fog]

They can only think in terms of literally simulation, they have no understanding of Symbolism or figurative language

[chrome fog]

See ur getting it

[umbral dagger]

chess pieces come to life

[chrome fog]

We learn this during the Golden Age, Maya Sundaresh, founder of the Ishtar Collective (in the Destiny universe not the website), started the collective when she and a couple other researchers came across some Vex, and found simulated copies of themselves in the radiolaria

They then enlisted those simulations to go gather more information and whatnot, slips from my mind what they did exactly, but that’s the foundation for one of the foundational Golden Age organizations

Maya was also upon the Ares-1 Mission to make first contact with the Traveler on Mars, along with two others whose names escape me as well as the life-support system R, which Clovis Bray I developed into the Warmind Rasputin

[umbral dagger]

the vex milk seems a bit like the veil, asin the collection of thought and memory

reminds me of exos too

[chrome fog]

You’re sort of right

[chrome fog]

Funny you mention

Clovis Bray

Looooooong story

[umbral dagger]

he made them right?

with help from either the darkness or witness

[chrome fog]

Dude was born with some genetic degenerative disease, aims to become immortal so he doesn’t have to die like a chump

He gets influenced by the Witness via the Clarity statue all the way on Europa, decides to book it there because a) the voices told him so, and b) escapes any humanitarian laws on human experimentation out there on the far reaches of space

There is also the Vex Gate to Volantis - one of their Forge Stars that they’ve taken over - and so he gets a steady stream of Radiolaria to use

[umbral dagger]

he is useing vex milk to transfer memory ect?

[empty fern]

What

[chrome fog]

The Witness - via Clarity - instructs Clovis to purify the radiolaria with Darkness statue, which reduces it to alkahest: basically the housing of radiolaria but without the vex collective consciousness occupying it

He then incorporates a lethal mind-scanning technique to get a copy of the individual’s mind before transferring their consciousness into the alkahest

He does so because of the purported fidelity of the mind-scan the technique uses, Maya uses a non-lethal mind-scan method for adding her consciousness to the gestalt mind that occupies Lakshmi-2

The place where you fight the Technocrat is where all the mindscans are stored

Uuuhh whatever it’s name is

[empty fern]

Complex?

[chrome fog]

There was another part to it but I can’t remember

[umbral dagger]

so exos are not too unlike vex after all

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm debateable

[umbral dagger]

so who was the voice maya heard?

she said it was herself

[chrome fog]

early experiments involving his son, Clovis II, reveals that Exos still need to have human mannerisms in order to have their mind accept their new bodies, which I guess is one difference to the Vex

[chrome fog]

We don’t know for sure, it has to be the Veil because she was literally studying it before the voice spoke, but could it also be some sort of auto-pilot Witness influence for anyone who tries to access the Darkness, which does a double act of influencing others to follow its cause and also perpetuating the image of Darkness as a malevolent force when in reality it is as neutral as gravity and the Light

Would this mean the Witness was influenced by the Veil?

Was Ahsa or Unveiling true or a false account, or something in-between where truth and falsehoods meet?

We dunno yet

[umbral dagger]

or that they influence the veil to become that, the origins story say its a power which can be influenced

and if an entire race backs that its almost akin to voting power

[blazing wasp]

Buddy, friend, pal, they've been on about this even though directly contradicting evidence

They came in here already deadset on their theory being right

[umbral dagger]

what are you on about?

[chrome fog]

That’s also one theory, that the idea of a “Winnower” was what the Witness race desired, and such desire influenced the Veil - for whatever sentience it may have - to also want to be a “Winnower”

[umbral dagger]

im not even talking about that, or any theory

place is filled with rude idiots

[blazing wasp]

I entered the chat way further up and it skipped to that message when I begun clicking reply

[umbral dagger]

im out

[blazing wasp]

It seems to have settled, apologies

[chrome fog]

I’m trying to be accommodating, do you know how small a portion of this server we are? It’s maddening trying to discuss lore with the rest of the server

[blazing wasp]

Yea no sorry discord threw me up when they were still arguing with others

And I didn't see the time

And it dropped me onto your message when trying to reply

It's dogshit on phone, i apologise again

[chrome fog]

It’s all good, but they were quick to leave when contested on their claim, so it might be another case of “comes in, says or asks something, we respond, some weird guilty triply reply and says they won’t come in here again”

[empty fern]

(They are still here)

[umbral dagger]

im right here

[empty fern]

See

[umbral dagger]

massive yikes honestly

[empty fern]

Yikes indeed,

[calm slate]

truly amazing

[empty fern]

Mid what are you doing here

[calm slate]

i love lore

[chrome fog]

It is, but I can be as equally rude as polite; just ask Freak A Nature what I think about his Neomuna conspiracy theory

[elfin thorn]

https://m.webnovel.com/book/destiny-the-legendary-hunter_23940315706771305

It's one of the best destiny fics, read it you won't regret it

[chrome fog]

#🏆destiny-media

This is for lore

[umbral dagger]

i dunno

alotta fanfiction in lore too

[chrome fog]

Oh, you know what

[empty fern]

Calus

[chrome fog]

I’ll invite you to the Cryptarchy

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

I’d love to see Sars butt heads with you

[empty fern]

Kek

Also

Where was it, I had a lore thing

[chrome fog]

Cannot wait for Glam and Eruke to shout at me

[empty fern]

(I have never been to the crypt, got an inv from mael a while ago but never joined)

[blazing wasp]

the cryptarcy the lore server?

[empty fern]

Yuh

[blazing wasp]

Thats brutal even for them

[chrome fog]

Dark Futures is canonical fanfic, with Elsie traveling - you guessed it - Dark alternate futures, as well as the Chronicon, Calus’ fanfic of what the Final Shape is and what the future holds

[blazing wasp]

I wish em good luck

[chrome fog]

Why is Elsie traveling alternate futures? She’s in a time loop

[blazing wasp]

Think of it like groundhog day but worse

Longer

[chrome fog]

why is she in a time loop? Just like Groundhog Day, ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[umbral dagger]

yeah i think they sorta hint this in the new witness cutscene, its a good lore drop i think

i still gotta rewatch it more

[chrome fog]

@umbral dagger if you want to discuss lore, the Cryptarchy server might be where you want to go; the founder translated Eliksni, they have the curator for the Destiny Lore Vault and the curator for the Ishtar Collective timeline, and Lettuce, the person who wrote up the explanation for the Light subclasses in the pins of this channel

[umbral dagger]

also um, the concept artist kinda gave away what the veil is too in a tweet

[chrome fog]

Needless to say

[onyx rock]

Is there still stuff like nuclear weapons or did we lose all of that

[empty fern]

Eliksni had a language?

[chrome fog]

Kinda

[empty fern]

Lost it all, besides wardcliff

[umbral dagger]

i dunno i think one is enough for me

[chrome fog]

I’ll let Viggy ask Sars

[umbral dagger]

thanks anyways

[chrome fog]

This is not a lore server, barely a channel

[umbral dagger]

copy that

[chrome fog]

You want your answers? Cryptarchy

[empty fern]

(Thank Venetia for the contribution to the server )

[onyx rock]

Think you could slide me an invite to that server

[chrome fog]

I’ll ask Mael when he’s up

Or actually yeah I will

[empty fern]

Oh I have an invite link

[heavy vortex]

[empty fern]

Bionic you want it?

[chrome fog]

If it’s expired I can send you another

I have it already, haven’t been kicked out yet

[empty fern]

Yet?

[orchid wedge]

Is that nexus

[empty fern]

Yes, the guy from genchat

[chrome fog]

[orchid wedge]

I’m taking ur toes

[blazing wasp]

Don't worry venny you're doing great I get yelled at here less than any other lore channel or server to date

[umbral dagger]

if the final shape is the last dlc i think i gotta get it

[blazing wasp]

It aint

[chrome fog]

It’s not

[umbral dagger]

well

[empty fern]

For now

[umbral dagger]

yeah

[blazing wasp]

Last of dark vs light saga

[empty fern]

Get it anyways

[umbral dagger]

i might get lightfall its on sale

i dunno

i dont get to raid

[heavy vortex]

It is what it is

[chrome fog]

Do whatever you desire, like the Young Wolf’s story you curate your experience

[blazing wasp]

Y is lfg not worky?

[umbral dagger]

im just not very good i prefer story games

where i can just play ect

[empty fern]

Speaking of story, I’m gonna read some of the in game lore books
Any recommendations?

[chrome fog]

Literally do whatever you’d like, no one can nor should influence your play experience

Totally fine if you can’t raid

[umbral dagger]

raids are hard tho, and big story in those i think?

[blazing wasp]

Fair nuff

[blazing wasp]

No, and no, it's desriny

[chrome fog]

Just watch Byf or the Destiny Lore Vault recordings

[blazing wasp]

Destiny*

[empty fern]

Desriny

[blazing wasp]

Only campaigns, seasonal and dlc ones, have any real story to it

[umbral dagger]

if he does full lore playthroughs that would be cool

[chrome fog]

You could also vc with someone raiding

Just like

[empty fern]

The vow collectibles don’t count anymore? Aw man

[blazing wasp]

He does a lot of lore coverage

[chrome fog]

Do whatever

[blazing wasp]

Sorry I got hungry

[chrome fog]

Not full play through a to my knowledge, but again

Cryptarchy

We have a guy literally scouring both games for idle dialogue, voice lines, cutscene, EVERYTHING, and putting it in the Destiny Lore Vault channel

Him name Eruke

[empty fern]

Moon and toland lore

[chrome fog]

He is also trying to compile a timeline of the Destiny universe, Ishtar Timeline guy Dyno is assisting

[blazing wasp]

He gets it from other people too

Footage and stuff

But

Very very good channel

Extremely reliable source

[chrome fog]

I know, he goes in with members of the server to get recordings sometimes

And also submissions if the audio is clearer and not layered over with other dialogue

Ironically, he got asked about that very thing fairly recently when someone asked about a playlist with some deleted/privated videos

[empty fern]

Real question is does he have EVERY helm console dialogue

[chrome fog]

Check the channel

[empty fern]

What channel

[chrome fog]

https://youtube.com/@DestinyLoreVault?si=LcigSfgtydpVNbYr

[umbral dagger]

its weird, the traveller almost seems part machine, even tho it shouldent be

[empty fern]

Oh that channel

[chrome fog]

It’s not

That’s just a name given by the Eliksni - The Great Machine - and also fancy effects from the Broken Traveler model; even in-game it was described as the inside being much bigger than what you’d believe

[blazing wasp]

Think of it like a god of creation, that's the grossly oversimplified version

[umbral dagger]

i mean the ghosts ect too? gotta be some kinda tech stuff in there

[chrome fog]

Hahahah

[empty fern]

Nah my ghost is actually very squishy and smooth

[umbral dagger]

i always just saw it as some kind of terraforming tool, i know its gotta be more than that but

[umbral dagger]

maybe it just looks techy then

[chrome fog]

Ok shitty clip, but here at the end with ghost’s dialogue (they’re not full machines, just glass, metal, and a frequency of Light)
https://youtu.be/JRGVht_i-ug?si=vpbDllO6-kVvHd48

[blazing wasp]

I'm serious about the god thing

It's a simplication

[empty fern]

He’s just bad at math, like most people

[blazing wasp]

And that's lowballing it

But for simplicity sake, it's a god

Or she

She's a god

[chrome fog]

Traveler is the same as the Gardener as corroborated by Ahsa and a handful of other lore tabs, see MK Stand Sides, her speaking to Clovis, and Dreams of Alphi Lupi

As the latter suggests, she generally speaks in people’s dreams

First one is an exotic Titan leg armor

[blazing wasp]

Asha outright confirmed it after very heavy implications

[chrome fog]

Last one is a lore book

[umbral dagger]

i wonder if the speaker will return in a plot twist

[blazing wasp]

Doubtful since he kinda uh

[umbral dagger]

why cant the cryptarch die

[empty fern]

Why did alpha lupi have 4 different exotics named after them
(Titan helm and hunter helm and warlock helm and titan chest)

[blazing wasp]

He got his neck snapped

[blazing wasp]

The? There's a lot of em

[chrome fog]

the last one might’ve not even been a true Speaker, he didn’t hear the Traveler’s voice and he wasn’t the first

[blazing wasp]

You mean rahool?

[umbral dagger]

yup

throw him off the tower

[blazing wasp]

He decrypts your engrams mate

[umbral dagger]

hm

[umbral dagger]

hm

[blazing wasp]

What you want em to stay crypted?

Think of the exotics

The legendary guns

[chrome fog]

… and get rid of one of the members of the organization trying to uncover all of the information lost from the Collapse; also the Speaker was not a part of the Cryptarchy, they’re different branches

[umbral dagger]

also xur needs figuring out

i think he is darkness

[blazing wasp]

No

[chrome fog]

Nope

The Nine

[empty fern]

Wilhelms mindset right here

[blazing wasp]

He's just some altered alien who serves as a messenger

[empty fern]

Poor xur

[umbral dagger]

did they give anymore lore on those guys?

[chrome fog]

They commandeered a dude and made him their messenger, he is actively dying because they formatted his body wrong and also he got his back broke by a Titan

[blazing wasp]

His posture isn't to be creepy btw its because his back was broken

[umbral dagger]

the jovhians or something

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[empty fern]

Not in a while

[chrome fog]

It has been since Drifter’s season and a little bit of Arrivals since we got any lore on the Nine or even Xur

[umbral dagger]

He speaks of being made of cells with the memories of the past, and coming from the dust. The Light can cause pain to him.[

.>

[empty fern]

Dust nine

[umbral dagger]

oh i see he is not one of the nine? just an agent

hm

[chrome fog]

Like he says all the time, yeah

[chrome fog]

Another thing, the Nine purposefully misdirect and complicate shit because they want to be oh so mysterious. They have an entry in their dedicated lore book which gives multiple explanations behind their origins. They are bastards for loreheads.

[trim grotto]

They're also terrible at Wishes.

Morning.

[empty fern]

Gm

[chrome fog]

@umbral dagger ask mael anything

Imma wash dishes and walk my dog before I got celebrate thanksgiving

[empty fern]

Do it quickly while the old man’s awake

[trim grotto]

Too late I'm at work now

[jagged badge]

I thought you were at work earlier?

Or am I getting mixed up

[trim grotto]

I was asleep earlier

[dim minnow]

Ok I'm here @umbral dagger

What questions do you have?

[dim minnow]

And it is crucial to understand that Ghost Fragment: Legends 2 is false in that the stuff listed are not the Nine

However, it seems that everything listed in that entry does exist

[chrome fog]

Oh man the Grimoire cards and how they’ve been retconned into being folk stories and myths, that’d piss Viggy off more

[dim minnow]

Also I don't think it is the Nine being purposefully deceiving. I think it is just that they are inefficient at revealing what they know

At least that is what Orin tells us

[umbral dagger]

how come?

better they make it clearer when something is a myth too often people take whats said too literally

dunno man, bungie really just tease everyone

[chrome fog]

Because Grimoire cards were one of the main ways lore was dispensed in D1, before they had a lot of stuff more concrete like they do now

[umbral dagger]

with abstract nonanswers

[umbral dagger]

i dont remember those haha

[chrome fog]

And so retroactively, they’ve made it so any contradictory or differing information from Grimoire cards can be dismissed while supported information acts as evidence

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/haha-so-funny-gif-27253208

[umbral dagger]

ah clever

[chrome fog]

Oh man, Marathon

And Halo

[umbral dagger]

i got up to the crota raid in d1

that was so damn epic

[chrome fog]

Remember when I said there’s an all-encompassing “player” character, somewhat the same as the Hero of Campbell’s “Hero of a Thousand Faces” but specifically for Bungie’s stuff?

This is important, because it’s a connecting thread between all of Bungie’s games and the reason why their games’ lore can get super esoteric

It’s also connected ti the Paraverse, which is their version of the multiverse

[umbral dagger]

oof thats a risky one

considering who owns halo

ect

[chrome fog]

Nah

They put the halo magnum as an exotic

And a bunch of Halo reference weapons

Anniversary baybee

[umbral dagger]

remedy have something like that

for alan wake ect

[jagged badge]

I’ve been listening to that song from that

Even though I haven’t a single clue what the game is about

A banger is a banger yk

[tawdry mauve]

all of the halo weapons in the 30th anniversary are entirely just that

references and "parodies"

bungie doesnt really own halo anymore

the ip is not theirs so they cant really say or do much in terms of the "paraverse" between the 2

[chrome fog]

It’s whatever

[tawdry mauve]

i mean no its pretty important lol

bungie litterally has no say about anything related to halo anymore

[chrome fog]

Idc because I’m trying to talk about the Bungie mythos they’ve built across their games

[umbral dagger]

if they began planning it before any purchase made then yeah its a thing

games business sucks

[chrome fog]

It doesn’t matter rn because it’s just semantics regarding who owns halo, the hints just contribute to the connectivity of the different universes Bungie has made regardless of the legality behind actually stating outright, not that they would because the fun is giving a bare sliver of information and seeing where the community goes from there

@dim minnow do you know marathon lore

[umbral dagger]

it sounds like you already have some ideas on connections

[chrome fog]

I don’t, it just does exist because Bungie does this all the time

[umbral dagger]

oh

[chrome fog]

From the Cryptarchy and Mr Sars himself

[dim minnow]

Nope

[umbral dagger]

silent hill/siren and toyamas new game might be connected, i just cant prove it, and those different companies would never say 'yes' to it

[chrome fog]

Great, and Mael’s off working

[chrome fog]

It’s more in-line with Portal and Half-Life’s connection

[tawdry mauve]

half life and portal are confirmed to be connected

its not just some hints and easter eggs connecting them

[dim minnow]

Any lore questions you got that are solely Destiny lore I can handle though

[chrome fog]

MIDA minitool is literall from Marathon

[tawdry mauve]

they take place in the same universe and aperature science is name dropped in half life 2

[tawdry mauve]

its also litterally just a reference

[umbral dagger]

i mean sure the game is your experience and all that, and different interpretations can be fun, but really the actual truth is the actual truth

[tawdry mauve]

there is a difference between bungie being like "hey we made these games too remember" and valve being like "the borealis is an important plot point of half life 2 and it comes from aperature labs"

[dim minnow]

The MIDA weapons do come from the Marathon timeline

[chrome fog]

It also has information in its Lore Tab referencing the MIDI faction of Marathon

[tawdry mauve]

yes

because its a marthon reference

an ip bungie owns

[chrome fog]

That’s the thing it’s just. Literally that, that is what Bungie is aiming for because they do this for all their games

[tawdry mauve]

but this does not mean the games are connected to any meaningful degree

not as meaningful as portal or hl are

[ember storm]

I compare the bungie stuff to what Kirby does

[chrome fog]

Cosmo I’m going to do a Freak on you please I’m begging you we get it

[tawdry mauve]

im just trying to say you are reaching a bit

with the bungie paraverse connection

at least with it having any actual meaning

[ember storm]

like Kirby and Earthbound have the same devs so they reference each other

[tawdry mauve]

in any of their games

and not being an excuse to have some fun references

[chrome fog]

COSMO MAEL AND SARS AND A SHITTON OF OTHERS HAVE CONCLUDED THAT THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN ALL THE FRANCHISES WITH AS TONGUE AND CHEEK AS BUNGIE IS

[dim minnow]

So does Viggy have any Destiny lore questions or not?