📚lore-discussion

[slim elk]

Witness also may have its own vanity
I mean.. had all those random statues in the Witch Queen cutscene where it was introduced
We get where that scene was ingame with the root raid.. they aren't there

Did the Witness take them inside the Traveler?

[velvet flax]

Place a maximum security Prison location slap bang in the most obvious place and not even trying to hide it in a secret location

[tawdry mauve]

i dont think they were ever meant to be hidden

[slim elk]

On the other hand..
With the Immaru dialogue.. anyone else think the Witness is intentionally torturing the Traveler?

[wheat latch]

is there anything special about crota's overzealous green glow or is it just hive magic

[tawdry mauve]

shield

[smoky rose]

How we feeling about the sword logic cutscene

Pretty neat

[sonic wing]

The witness went into the portal on the traveler to being back pre nerf starfire

Anyway, do we know anything about moss-2 since spire came out, he seemed like a cool character

[smoky rose]

No unfortunately

[sonic wing]

F

[smoky rose]

Not much that really moves the story this week but the character interactions were very good

[slim elk]

Bit odd they have the ink drawn cutscene this early

[smoky rose]

I doubt its THE cutscene

More A cutscene

[slim elk]

Usually marks the halfway mark of the season

[smoky rose]

Oh god verse 8:7 is fucked gross

Xivu Arath's fortress

Nah that's not right

[paper gorge]

what does aiat mean?

[smoky rose]

Basically amen for the hive

All will go the way it must, and that way is struggle

Something along those lines

[paper gorge]

ok yhanks

[worn kernel]

Now imagine a hive pastor in a church shouting "Can I get an AIAT?" Hive sitting in the Pews: "AIAT!"

[outer dragon]

A Hive mega-church

That is basically what we are doing this season

[ember storm]

this but it’s a wizard in a room full of thrall who can barely even comprehend the fact they’re alive

[smoky rose]

Don't read the 7th page of the sororicide lore book

It has permanently fucked up my view of hive churches and fortresses

Not the ones we've seen

But Xivu's

[outer dragon]

You can't make me not

Well ishtar can make me not

Fug

[ember storm]

what’s wrong with Ishtar

[empty fern]

It’s a collective, therefore must be vex and destroyed

[slim elk]

Not wrong

The vex made quite the number of copies of Ishtar personal

[empty fern]

Oh shit

[slim elk]

Heck. Esi even decided to hand herself over to the Vex

The og one

[drifting glacier]

season of defiance literally felt like it was unfinished, my whole guess was that xivu arath was leading the shadow legion after calus died and that they were grabbing prisoners to feed her war tithe for some big ritual, but they just never explained it or mentioned it afterward

[smoky rose]

That's just fanfiction though

[drifting glacier]

like they never had a leader, they just kept prisoners for no reason instead of killing them

[smoky rose]

It was just the shadow legion doing shadow legion things

[drifting glacier]

like it made no sense, the witness would just not do that, strategically speaking, capturing prisoners made no sense unless they had something like what I said previously

[smoky rose]

Because its not the witnesss

Its literally just the shadow legion mobbing

I suggest that not everything needs to have some grand meaning

[dawn epoch]

so what IS eris?? i know she was a former guardian and all that moon stuff, but how can she get all hivey and stuff

[dim minnow]

as far as we know, the Witness is just trying to keep us distracted from the Veil

since it originally wanted the Veil destroyed after it made the link

[drifting glacier]

the shadow legion compared to other cabal have no will of their own, they are in fact mostly clones made by calus, the witness is evil but they're not stupid, and if what dovadah is saying is correct, then they should have explained it

but the writing has significantly improved since then so yeah

[dim minnow]

the Witness does use covering its tracks as a tactic all the time

[drifting glacier]

and on another thing, why would the witness send eramis to destroy the traveler if they needed it alive to make the connection, my only sensible guess is that the witness knew that it would fail or that even if it hit that it would not be enough to destroy it and just wanted to wipe out the last city or get away the traveler from it so they could have an easier chance at making the link, but anyways if this is true which is my head canon, then they should have explained it somewhere even in the lore honestly

[dim minnow]

maybe the goal was to get Rasputin off the playing field

[tawdry mauve]

or to get the traveller to move further from the city

[drifting glacier]

no but it needs to make minimun sense at least, I don't expect everything to be super meaningful but at least not for it to go directly against the antagonists motivations like the whole shadow legion capturing prisoners thing which just made them easier targets

[dim minnow]

going back to the prisoners, it also seems that they were using them as bait on us

[drifting glacier]

that's what I think too tbh, but they should have explained it in game and in the lore

[dim minnow]

since it was how they got Amanda

[dim minnow]

it could be aruged that that "it has nowhere else to run" line relates to that

[drifting glacier]

yeah but to bait us to do what, amanda was barely of any importance strategically, my guess was killing us maybe? but that wouldn't make any sense since we can revive and we did that, the whole xivu thing was my best guess and the best explenation but they didn't give any really

[dim minnow]

could even be bait to make Mara tire herself out

we do know that her letting us use her power in Defiance takes a toll on her

[drifting glacier]

my guess is that it was bait of some kind, but it felt like there was a week missing from the season, like the finale was cut short, like they set up all these questions throughout the season, mentioned by the characters, like, who is leading the shadow legion now, why are they capturing prisoners, ext, and then at the end they didn't answer any of them. Probably a victim of what happened with lightfall as it literally had the same exact problems

[dim minnow]

given how the WQ seasons were all secretly linked to the Veil, maybe the next season will tie the rest together

[empty fern]

Oh no

Hive season after hive season

Actually maybe cabal since we leading into final shape (they will be the main in game enemy)

[tawdry mauve]

its going to be a cabal season

[tawdry mauve]

also the main enemy factions of final shape are hive and taken

[empty fern]

Oh

Fuck

It’s all hive from here on out

[tawdry mauve]

i mean no?

next season is cabal most likely

then its hive/taken

[empty fern]

Damn you

[tawdry mauve]

then its vex

scorn and then hive again

the reason next season is cabal is because if it isnt, we wouldnt have anything cabal themed till the next expansion after final shape

and i think thats silly

[empty fern]

Did we forget a faction? Not fallen but another

[tawdry mauve]

no?

fallen, scorn, taken, hive, cabal, vex

[empty fern]

Damn

[tawdry mauve]

there arent that many factions in the game lol

[empty fern]

Hmph

We atleast getting a new tormentor unit, 2 actually

[tawdry mauve]

we also dont have much fallen content so the next season will prolly be cabal/fallen

like plunder was

[empty fern]

Oh god

[dim minnow]

Eramis?

[tawdry mauve]

probably?

i mean it kinda fits perfectly

eramis has another appearance pre final shape, we get a cabal and fallen season which we havent a. had in a while and b. wont for a while as well

[dim minnow]

maybe Eramis will link back to Defiance if she shows up next season

[tawdry mauve]

i hope

[dim minnow]

she did pop in breifly to try and get us out of that trap

hmmm

I wonder if the Witness is acting desparate at this point

maybe it knows that if we stand united and use the Veil, then we actually have a chance to beat it

you go to the Tower and you see that the Last City has an actual fleet now thanks to our alliances with the Cabal Empire, House of Light, and the Awoken

[worn kernel]

Still having my fingers crossed if Asher Mir comes back

[dim minnow]

after NORD AVALON, I don't think he will

[tawdry mauve]

he gone

[dim minnow]

he kinda got unspooled

[worn kernel]

yeah, Ik. I'm just a dreamer, curse you Bungee for killing off my grumpy Warlock.

[languid gulch]

Who the FUCK is xur and why can't he sell a good set of Armour

And why does no one talk about the galactic horse

[tawdry mauve]

starhorse is not canon

[languid gulch]

Oh

That explains a lot

[tawdry mauve]

xur is an agent of the nine

he got his back broke by orin

and he was the one that freed skolas

which caused the wolf rebelion in the reef

now granted he was a gift to the nine from the mara

xur is also not one of the nine btw

[languid gulch]

Who are the nine?

[smoky rose]

Sentient space dust

Dark matter

[tawdry mauve]

"The Nine are sentient beings composed of dark matter, which developed cognition after being pulled into loops by the gravity of Sol and its planets. Their existence is predicated on the existence of those planets, particularly the life that developed on them, as the motions of lifeforms cause gravitational perturbations that drive the Nine's ability to think. The Nine's primary concern is sustaining their own existence, whether by protecting the life on which they depend or by finding a way to end their reliance on it."

[fast tapir]

I really hope we get more of the nine before TFS

I honestly wouldn't care if it were after either

[frigid sparrow]

(we aren't)

[fast tapir]

I just want more nine :c

[frigid sparrow]

with how things are going now there's no time for the nine and none of the stories afterward seem to have them as a focus

[tawdry mauve]

the nine just like fikrul are taking a huge back burner rn

chilling

[frigid sparrow]

and at least fikrul is gonna be getting something after TFS

[slim elk]

The episodes do feel like they are wrapping up loose ends anyway

From what we know.. they are self contained

No lead ins from episode to episode

[empty fern]

Episode 4

[frigid sparrow]

wow, not even episode 9? smh

[empty fern]

Beh

[fiery copper]

The Nine have given up on light and darkness as their source of immortality. They turn to someone, something else... an artifice lich, an undying being of steel and hatred.

TANIKS, EMISSARY OF THE NINE.

[dawn epoch]

so who is eris again? i kinda need a refresher ngl

[jagged badge]

Lightless Guardian who lost her fireteam when they attempted to assassinate Crota. She escaped the depths of the Hellmouth after having to graft Hive eyes to her face and learn Hive magic to survive. She operates as an agent of Ikora’s Hidden, and is also responsible for helping Guardians to kill Crota, Oryx, Savathûn and more

[dawn epoch]

OH SHE LEARNED HIVE MAGIC

[jagged badge]

She also helped us to study the Pyramids and prepare for the Black Fleet’s arrival, as well as helping Guardians learn how to safely use Stasis

[dawn epoch]

that explains why she's all freaky now

[dawn epoch]

i thought stasis was elsie's thing

[jagged badge]

Elsie helped Drifter and Eris learn it, and in turn they helped to try and spread awareness of Stasis as a tool for good

[dawn epoch]

ohhhh

sweet ty

[patent swallow]

I WAS RIGHT I WAS RIGHRT

HAH

#📚lore-discussion message

im so cool

[jagged badge]

Sorta

Eris can’t claim Oryx’s power he left on his death because Mara already did. But I guess Savathûn still believes Eris could wind up as an heir to the mantle or something

[real ingot]

TTK itself is kinda irreplaceable though a new position can be formed close to it if I had to guess

[patent swallow]

When did mara claim his power i dont remember that at all @jagged badge

[real ingot]

Years ago

That was her whole plan back in TTK

[dim minnow]

Savathun really did tell Xivu Arath to stop being such a whiny bitch

[sweet sparrow]

So does anyone have any guesses as to how we are going to enter the traveler portal ?

Wanna hear some theories

[dull raft]

I'm thinking next season will involve us reinforcing our ships to pass through unscathed, potentially by wrangling resources from Clovis

[sweet sparrow]

Maybe ? But then I wonder what information savathun has ? Or she could just be using us but that’s doubtful

[dull raft]

Nooo, the Hive god of trickery, using us? doubtful.

[jagged badge]

Except she had a contingency that accounted for us discovering she has this important knowledge. If she didn’t have this important knowledge, we wouldn’t have found out and gone to her at all

So she has to have the important knowledge

[smoky rose]

With how much Bungie is bringing up old lore nowadays, there's a lot of options

The Ex Diris lore tab indicates it may be wish magic

[sweet sparrow]

Also has anything been mentioned about the amakara egg from season of the lost?

[smoky rose]

I'd assume that one is also fucked up

[fiery copper]

God bungie please don't kill Eris I stg

[smoky rose]

Yeah that egg is corrupted too

So that's off

[smoky rose]

If we entertain the idea that we are going to use wish magic (I don't even know how that would work to get us in)

• we have no extant Ahamkara
• we have no surviving eggs to our knowledge

So where would we get an ahamkara from

Another survivor like Riven? Ahsa?

[tawdry mauve]

the nine?

[smoky rose]

Ahsa being a worm of course but the point stands

[tawdry mauve]

maybe

idfk

[smoky rose]

Idk how the IX would get an egg

Savathun could have one ig but idk how she'd get one either

[tawdry mauve]

didnt shuro chi believe that the ahamkara were sent by the nine

also the nine really didnt like oryx taking riven

and the nine killed the last few remaining ahamkara to prevent them from being taken by oryx as well

[smoky rose]

I suppose when Mara died Savathun could have swung in and stolen one of the eggs right before they were corrupted

Or someone else but Savathun is plot relevant right now

[tawdry mauve]

i mean it could be both savathun and the nine

whos to say they didnt work in mutual interests

5 of the nine already try and utilize the light to achieve their goals or whatever

[smoky rose]

Anyways just a reminder for anyone reading this now, we are going off of the Ex Diris lore tab

[fiery copper]

Nokris resurrects one

[smoky rose]

[fiery copper]

Or like

Eris

Uses the ahamkara bone

She already has

Or the bigass skull shaxx owns

Or 1kv

Or the three separate ahamkara skulls in the dreaming city underplace idk what it's called

Confluence?

[smoky rose]

But would a bone have enough power to do whatever turbo fuckery to get into the portal

[slim elk]

..
We are thinking the wrong way.

There's a continual wish magic powered time loop that's still on-going

To what end has Savathun kept that going over in the Dreaming City?

[ember storm]

Savathun mentioned before it revolves around controlling the taken to break

[slim elk]

Savathuns lost her ability to control Taken with the destruction of Quria...

[ember storm]

she explicitly mentioned this during Lost, after having lost access, yes

the bottom line is that the curse isn’t due solely to ahamkara magic

like Fikrul’s resurrection, there’s layers and it can’t be easily solved

[slim elk]

The curse is the biggest loose end that Savathun has left

Might be something there can utilize

[ember storm]

The point I just made is she doesn’t have access to it

it’s useless to her and she literally couldn’t stop it if she wanted to

the only real purpose it served was buying her a little more time until her plan surrounding the light came together

her worm starving forced her to get desperate and sloppy

[covert dawn]

Might be a dumb question, but I'm very stupid on lore for this game LMAO.
Why does Eris have 3 eyes?ike what happened to her on the moon that made her how she is?

[ember storm]

long story short, she got trapped inside the hive fortress in the moon with no powers and no way out

she resorted to using an ahamkara bone to make a wish, which is basically like a monkey’s paw if you’re familiar with the concept

so the wish did give her the way out, but it also just removed her eyes from her sockets in exchange

so she had to get some replacements

[covert dawn]

And the bone is in that green orb she carries?

[ember storm]

yep

[covert dawn]

Oh cool

Thanks

[ember storm]

she keeps it in the ball to silence its whispers and shut it up

otherwise it would be very dangerous and also annoying

[slim elk]

Granted, Eris also admitted to keeping the company of the Nightmares of her Fireteam despite the capacity to banish them.

[ember storm]

I don’t really like that bungie did that considering there was an entire questline dedicated to cleansing them

and yknow it was a major part of Eris’ character development and a main reason she didn’t fall off into the deep end and cause the end of the universe

like c’mon the entire reason she helped everyone with their nightmares during haunted was because she was familiar with the process

[slim elk]

The irony is that she could also grab the actual souls of two members of her fireteam if she wanted

Tolland is literally floating about the moon

And she helped make Xenophage..

[ember storm]

Omar is cool and based

[real ingot]

Omar having the time of his life

[ember storm]

Toland is just a shit person who Eris admits she shouldn’t even care about

[real ingot]

The entire Tower making sure they don't make Toland happy because he's a nutcase

[slim elk]

Toland:Your making Eris into a Hive God! What will it take to make you admit I was right?!

[real ingot]

You're*

[empty fern]

Toland moment

[slim elk]

He would be smug as hell about this season

[empty fern]

Kek

“Follow sword logic, do it now”

[thorny palm]

where are nukes in the destiny universe?

like surely some governments probably tried to shoot nukes and the traveler

[real ingot]

Clovis

[jagged badge]

No, they didn’t

[jagged badge]

Some Warlords got their hands on nukes at some point. Which is why there’s the Manhattan Nuclear Zone

[empty fern]

But also the leftover nukes were lost during the collapse

[peak coral]

so we couldnt reinvent nukes in the current world

thats sad

man.

[thorny palm]

fallen prolly scavenged them

[wind belfry]

maybe thats what gm shanks are made of

[tawdry mauve]

most guardians are walking nukes lol

i dont think it bothers them too much

[thorny palm]

the last city needs a nuke so big it can wipe the witness out

thatd be a good sollution

[wind belfry]

MAKE GIANT KABOOMS 💯 🦅 🇺🇸

[kind badger]

lore wise, has there been any guardians that have killed a ghost in the crucible like we do to lucent hive

[jagged badge]

Shayura, I believe

She uhh…she snapped and became something of a Light zealot who killed Stasis users

[tawdry mauve]

yes

there were a lot of "final deaths" in the crucible

some less or more accidental than the others

the 2 more promiment ones that come to mind are shayura and dredgen yor

[smoky rose]

Not in pvp from Shayura, she almost did though

She did kill a lot of guardians, just... off the grid

On Venus for example

[outer dragon]

Doesn't Mara have an egg? We saw during Lost?

[tawdry mauve]

corrupted

[jagged badge]

Oh right

[trim grotto]

A Taken egg, the likes of which were killed by the Nine.

[trim grotto]

As per Reextinction, those Taken eggs were killed by the Nine. Even if it wasn't, it is Taken, so it would be controlled by the Witness or Xivu or some other being of great power.

[outer dragon]

I wonder what the implications of that egg are

Will she try to purify it?

[trim grotto]

Considering that all the others are, again, dead? I think it is nothing more than a somewhat literal easter egg.

We broke the shells. The Nine killed the clutch.

But, if it does in fact live, we would absolutely have to purify the Taken nature somehow.

Riven was only of her own mind because of a Wish she conned out of Oryx, and even then it only kicked in when he died.

[slim elk]

Admittedly
Wouldn't have put it past Mara to stash an Ahahmkara egg for later use

[tulip knoll]

Is Aisha still alive or is Shayura the only one left of her fireteam? Haven’t been caught up since Reed died

[slim elk]

She did help organize the Great Hunt for the express purpose of having sole access to a wish dragon

[dim minnow]

so far, they both seem to be alive

[jagged badge]

Aisha and Shayura both lived

[thorny palm]

man, what happened to modern weapons during the collapse

[jagged badge]

Their Ghosts were spared for some reason

[fiery copper]

We still have guns

And before the collapse we were FAR past "modern day" tech.

[dim minnow]

not sure if anyone checked yet, but it seems that the Collector's Edition lore book of TFS will be about Eido searching for information on the Witness' origins

[thorny palm]

i mean modern guns, before the traveler

[fiery copper]

Khvostov is pre golden age iirc

Oh Monte Carlo is too isn't it?

[thorny palm]

what happened to m4a1s, aks ect

[jagged badge]

I don’t think so

[fiery copper]

They're patented products and bungie doesn't want to pay the ludicrous licensing fees

That's the actual answer

[thorny palm]

bruh

do what cod did, change a few things around and rename it

[fiery copper]

Like seriously if your game isn't named Call of Duty good luck getting modern guns in it

[thorny palm]

or any battlefield game

[fiery copper]

Yeah

They have a harder time of it though, even if slightly

The US military directly funds cod to boost recruitment so they get special privileges (this is not a political statement or in any way attempting to influence opinions, it is just a thing that the US military has literally said that they do)

[lime tiger]

so im doing altars of sorrow. and toland just yelled at me and called me "pawn of the queen" is that old dialouge about mara? or is it about savathun

[fiery copper]

Mara

[lime tiger]

thx

[fiery copper]

Savathun was still 2 years away from even showing up ingame at that point

[lime tiger]

yea thats what i thought

it just sounded different from his other dialoug and i wasnt near one of his balls

[fiery copper]

Toland is just kinda weird

Hes the kid in middle school who thought he was the Alpha Wolf and growled at the teacher when she just wanted to assign homework so she could go home and cry from having to put up with his shit for 8 hours a day

But like

Also a wizard

[jagged badge]

At least Toland has a cool voice

Not the coolest voice but still cool

[fiery copper]

His vision of himself is much more badass than he actually is

[fiery copper]

Oh absolutely

If he was actually competent at anything other than Existing then I'd love to have more of him

But as it stands his only accomplishment is dying and then getting better

[remote sky]

Any lore reason why the eliksni have their souls visibly leave their body whenever their head is blown off

[dim minnow]

Probably due to how vital Ether is to their biology

[remote sky]

oh yeah.. I never did care to learn what ether is..
is it like sunlight for peashooters or something? Elixir for the barbarians?

[dim minnow]

Ether is a gaseous/liquid material that Eliksni need for growth

[remote sky]

ah

[dim minnow]

in fact, Eliksni are normally supposed to be Captain-sized

[remote sky]

milk for the literally any mammal ever

[remote sky]

oh..
oh that's kinda sad now that I think about it
they're like starved or something?

[dim minnow]

so Fallen lower in rank than captains are pretty much malnourished on Ether

[remote sky]

[dim minnow]

Whirlwind did make Ether scarce

[remote sky]

Who..?

[dim minnow]

the Whirlwind

[remote sky]

[dim minnow]

Eliksni equivalent to our collapse

[remote sky]

oh

[dim minnow]

you see, the Eliksni were visited by the Traveler before us

[remote sky]

yes yes this i know

I just didn't know they named their collapse too

[dim minnow]

now, when the Traveler visited them, it never intended on staying, but the love and kinship they gave it made it prolong its stay

and because of that, the Witness showed up which is what caused the Whirlwind

then the Travler left in the middle of it presumably to lead them away from the Eliksni

[remote sky]

that's cute

[remote sky]

and that's unfortunate

[jagged badge]

That always makes me want to cry. It really humanises the Traveler

Seeing it enamoured by a gentle, kind species

[dim minnow]

Traveler is benevolent after all

the really sad part is that it knew that if it stayed then the Witness would show up

but the love and kinship it felt were things it longed for

[remote sky]

a massive white ball shows up in the sky
whaddya do?
you treat it like family

[jagged badge]

You must force yourself to be cruel. Your presence is portent.```

[dim minnow]

I would like more Dreams of Alpha Lupi

one for Fundament would be amazing

[remote sky]

so eliksni bosses like phylaks and shit are basically the equivalent fat and rich barons?

[dim minnow]

maybe even one going over the Traveler's thoughts during the end of Seraph

[slim elk]

Might be able to get the traveler talking finally in Final Shape.

[dim minnow]

I suppose so, better rank = better Ether rations

[remote sky]

if it does, I want it to sound like a biker
bikers are always really nice

[slim elk]

I.. kinda suspect the Witness is torturing it from what Immaru is saying

[dim minnow]

well, I think we did get it speaking to us back in Forsaken

[remote sky]

wahagsyeuiamw WHAT

[dim minnow]

during the mission on Io where we got our first middle tree for our Light subclasses

[remote sky]

I joined as the second season of witch queen started WTF YOU MEAN???

[dim minnow]

though it mainly recited lines stated in lore by other characters previously

like Radeghast and maybe Toland

[remote sky]

oh

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/visions-of-light

[frigid sparrow]

what are the odds of any mention of toland this season? any lorebooks, any dialogue, anything at all? considering his relationship to eris and fascination with the hive and sword logic

[stone turtle]

what the

I have never seen this be for

wow

[trim grotto]

Eris called his name during her ritual actually

[frigid sparrow]

oh, right, forgot about that

when she mentioned her other fireteam members, correct?

[dim minnow]

anyone else acknowledging that we actually have an official design for Xivu Arath now

and it seems to be different from the WQ design

[real ingot]

Seems WQ was a base

What we have now comes off more powerful

[frigid sparrow]

they keep the same kind of design aspects (like the long aah parts of her forehead)

[jagged badge]

They already showed this design in one of the Grimoire anthologies right?

[dim minnow]

yeah, but it was just her head and even then it was much more like a sihlouette

[jagged badge]

Fair

[stone turtle]

is it the design from this weeks cutscene?

what was her original design?

[dim minnow]

From a cutscene in Witch Queen

[stone turtle]

ah

[wind belfry]

Never forget 🕊️

[jagged badge]

[dim minnow]

huh, looks like the campaign for TFS will be different than WQ and LF

while it will still have 8 missions, we will start with only 7 from the get-go

and when the raid drops, we will get the 8th one since Bungie confirms that the boss for the raid will be the Witness

source: Joe Blackburn interview

[tulip knoll]

Something tells me tho that blackburn over exaggerated the difficulty of crotas end

He said it’s going to be like a tester of sorts to compensate and tune in preparation for TFS raid

So depending on how difficult or how easy crotas end is, will be how difficult or how easy TFS raid will be

Given this will be the climax raid to end a 10 year saga. I imagine they want the raid to be challenging enough to where completing it day 1 gives you a strong sense of Frodo destroying the ring euphoria

But also making it doable enough for the player base that isn’t as proficient at raiding to experience this as well

Idk I guess we’ll see

[smoky rose]

He wants it to be Riven/Val Caour tier

[tulip knoll]

That makes sense

Honestly tho

Given the hype, I would be very disappointed if this raid is only 4 encounters

A raid with this much lore significance deserves 5 to 6 encounters.

They said they wouldn’t make a raid that big ever again, but they also said they wouldn’t bring Crotas end back

I think this raid warrants an extra encounter

Go all out, end the saga with a colossal bang

Try your best to exceed last wish in terms of epicness and fun. That’s what I’d do at least if I was Bungie knowing how important this raid is

The amount of hype Bungie is putting on this raid, the amount of time this story has been developing. There’s no question, this raids energy needs to match something along the lines of lord of the rings return of the king and avengers endgame

Anything less than that, would be underwhelming. This storys climax if they really put that thought into it can certainly rival climax’s like that.

[languid gulch]

Yapperton mayor of blabber city

[rich veldt]

i doubt bungie are gonna do as big of a power gap as lw

[tulip knoll]

Keep your non essential dickish comments to yourself

[languid gulch]

Woah woah

[tulip knoll]

Definitely won’t be as bad

That power gap was drastic

[smoky rose]

Indeed

They won't

But as far as mechanical stuff I think that's a good mark

[plush sequoia]

So recently, I pulled Worldline Zero out of my vault after being in there since Warmind, lol. Do we have any lore on its origin?

[dim minnow]

I believe Elsie Bray made it

[tulip knoll]

What about encounter wise, what’s a suitable length for a raid of this significance?

[smoky rose]

I don't think the count matters at all

It could be 3 or 20, if the 20 encounters are shit and the 3 are good, the 3 encounter raid is both better and more fitting

I'd like to see 5 but I wouldn't complain about 4 or even 3 if it's good

[tulip knoll]

Fair, as long as each encounter holds some memorable weight I guess

[broken zephyr]

what is so bad about the Black Garden? like why do we see it as so evil if its supposed to be a "salvation"

[dim minnow]

the Black Garden housed the Black Garden's Heart which is a failed copy of the Veil

and if we did not destroy it, then it would of corrupted us

[broken zephyr]

what was up with the whole cutscene at the end of SK then?

[sweet mason]

so the area where the helm takes us this season

do we know exactly what it is?

tinfoil hat says eris throne world but I haven't seen any actual indication to what it is

[dim minnow]

the Athenaeum is a forgotten part of Savathun's Throne World

[sweet mason]

oh ok

[little gorge]

the witness' whole thing is "salvation"

doesn't mean its idea of salvation is actually good for us

[velvet dawn]

female exos def were expensive

[low gyro]

Technically you can stop all suffering by unexisting everything

That would probably count as "salvation" by some twisted standard

[jagged badge]

?

[velvet dawn]

assumption

[jagged badge]

Why though? They’d be roughly the same as any other Exo frame. They’re all pretty much the same size and shape except for few exceptions

[velvet dawn]

😈

[jagged badge]

?

[blazing wasp]

What

[empty fern]

Don’t pay attention to them

Talk about how the cabal enslaved the war beasts

If they did that

[grizzled zinc]

Elsie’s custom frame would’ve been expensive tho

[grizzled zinc]

Frenzyflame vibe

[grizzled zinc]

So savathun just has it set up so her planet gets a view of three green stars behind a nebula to look like her eyes

[still quarry]

I mean as far as I’m aware throne worlds aren’t really planets but more of a pocket dimension

[trim grotto]

They're bubbles within the Ascendant Plane

Bubbles which conform to the will and mind of their owner, form maintained by their power. Generally, the Worm Parasite of the Hive.

The natural laws, shape, form, all dictated by that which owns them.

Physics is secondary.

[velvet flax]

I guess if you travel sufficiently far enough through Savathun's Throne World, you will eventually leave it and into the normal darkness of the Ascendant Plane

[shadow warren]

What we’re the awoken’s feelings toward the great hunt

Considering the dreaming city was harboring a ton of ahamkara eggs

[trim grotto]

The Awoken were the ones who armed the Guardians and taught them how to preform the Hunt.

Hence the Last Wish equipment being named after the Great Hunt

[wheat latch]

Wait there's ahamkara eggs? Does that mean they're not extinct?

[jagged badge]

The eggs were killed by the Nine and then we shot them with a bow iirc

[trim grotto]

Around the Dreaming City, there are Taken Ahamkara Eggs that we break with Wishender for lore and triumphs.

[jagged badge]

We really wanted that Taken omelette

[trim grotto]

The lore stopped after Vaulting but you still need it for the Title

[wheat latch]

So they are extinct to our knowledge then?

[trim grotto]

However, as Eris said, those Taken Ahamkara Eggs were already dead, as the Nine killed them

[trim grotto]

Last Known Ahamkara was Riven's title

So yes, to our knowledge

[wheat latch]

What was the nine's motive

[jagged badge]

Preventing like 50 Taken Ahamkara ravaging Sol

[trim grotto]

Not having two dozen Taken Wish Dragons serving the Taken King.

[jagged badge]

Probably

Wait, did I misremember how many eggs there were

[wheat latch]

Just seems wrong to resort to killing them first

[trim grotto]

Is it?

They're Taken. Unlike Riven, they didn't have a Wish deal to free their minds.

[shadow warren]

We had to shoot 40

[jagged badge]

You can’t really undo the Taking except in the special circumstances of the Techeuns

Ah

[shadow warren]

Mara had one a few seasons ago

[trim grotto]

They would be wholly subservient to their master. Oryx, the Witness, Savathûn, Xivu.

[jagged badge]

Also even without the Taken corruption, the Ahamkara are dangerous

[trim grotto]

That being said, they arrived in Sol post-Collapse, and they did exist outside of Sol. Calus, for example, had a bone. So there may well be more.

[wheat latch]

Oh I didn't realize this, I thought that was a trait of the ahamkara, sry idk much abt them

[ember storm]

ahamkara are also largely just too much of a threat to keep alive too begin with

[jagged badge]

Which is why the Great Ahamkara Hunt happened

[ember storm]

if you're okay with hunting down one specific vandal for a strike then this shouldn't be an issue

[wheat latch]

Would you go around murdering fallen babies tho?

[jagged badge]

My answer may surprise you

Jk

[wheat latch]

Lol

[ember storm]

do you go trying to find fertile eggs in the supermarket and save them

[jagged badge]

My answer may surprise you

[wheat latch]

Haha, fair point

[ember storm]

we only destroyed the eggs after they were already taken

so

[wheat latch]

Are ahamkara peaceful creatures and it's merely their nurture that makes them dangerous?

[trim grotto]

HAH

[ember storm]

no

[trim grotto]

HAHAHAHA

[ember storm]

not at all

their entire existence revolves around the suffering of others

[wheat latch]

I said something dumb didn't i

[ember storm]

i mean it's like asking "why don't hive just stop killing"

[wheat latch]

Lmao, whoops

[trim grotto]

If they would grow into beings that could consume and rewrite reality for fun and feeding (which all Ahamkara do), while being utterly and totally controlled by a xenocidal being who wants to destroy and rewrite existence itself

yeah probably

[ember storm]

anyway remember mini screebs

killing smallen ain't an issue for me

[wheat latch]

But cute ahamkara babies

[trim grotto]

Eao was cute and small

[wheat latch]

I was under the understanding that they were just a creature capable of granting wishes, not that they wish to cause all suffering lol

[ember storm]

it's how they sustain themselves

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/azirim
This is particularly relevant to the discussion
As an example

[ember storm]

you know the monkey's paw?

it's like that, but sentient and intentionally fucking you over while smiling the entire time

they don't even need wishes to do anything

[jagged badge]

Don’t they feed off desire?

[ember storm]

they're perfectly capable of just rewriting reality on a whim because they feel like it

at that point it's not for sustenance, just shits and giggles

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/pilgrimage-garden-of-esila-tree

[ember storm]

like the time two screwed with venus so bad it drove a guardian witness to suicide

[wheat latch]

Lemme guess, eao did something horrific

[ember storm]

they don't play nice

[trim grotto]

Most of them did at some point or another

[ember storm]

one of them played poker

truly horrific

[jagged badge]

Poor Tallulah

[ember storm]

and then also ate a hunter vanguard but nobody cares about that part

[trim grotto]

The Ahamkara remain an issue. There's still so much we can learn from them but what they've done to Venus… no two Guardians see the same thing. Consultants from the War Cult have been brought in to gauge disagreements over timelines of events. One of our Warlocks stared into the paracausal phenomenon that formed over the Ishtar Academy and shot himself. (He is NOT an authorized Thanatonaut). Luckily, his Ghost hid from him beforehand. We managed to get him back. He has no lingering physical wounds, but he will need time to recover.

[ember storm]

the poker is the important part

[wheat latch]

Any follow-up on the guardian that shot themselves

[trim grotto]

No

[wheat latch]

What did they see?

[trim grotto]

[wheat latch]

That's scary

[ember storm]

ahamkara did a little trolling

[wheat latch]

"trolling" lol

Well I now feel slightly more informed on ahamkara

They're not cute ahamkara babies, they're evil

[trim grotto]

they're scary little goblins

or scary big goblins

that literally consume reality to fit subjective desire

[wheat latch]

When do we get that power

[ember storm]

never probably

[shadow warren]

What did they do to Venus?

[wheat latch]

Was there any limit to the wishes they could grant? Or did they just grant whatever was asked

[jolly vector]

dont think there were any

[trim grotto]

"They wouldn't be so base. They're re-writing Venus."```

[jolly vector]

since the wishes power should came from the person wishing themself

[trim grotto]

It depends on the... hang on let me quote something

[shadow warren]

So they recreated Venus

[trim grotto]

2. NO LISTEN PLEASE the ontopathic predator the chimera which has Riven your Desires from Your Intents It Wanted You Here just as all life must feed on an energy gradient it feeds on the separation between Subjective Desire and Objective Reality it is the opposite of fire for as fire feeds on the reduction of Order to Disorder so Riven feeds on the Anthem Anatheme which is the perverse coercion of Reality to match Desire. As the Human body breaks down Matter for Fuel so she desires the digestion of Objectivity to conform to your Subjective Will. She is the acid but you are the mouth which eats. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE UNIFIED WILL OF SIX ELITE GODSLAYERS ALL WISHING FOR A SINGLE THING WHICH WAS HER DESTRUCTION/PURIFICATION CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW SHE FEASTED UPON YOU

[trim grotto]

Regions of it. To an unclear degree and purpose.

[jolly vector]

this is why they tested with the wish wall I guess

[ember storm]

it's more or less just them reading your desires and reacting accordingly to farm the most sustenance from you

[jolly vector]

to make it so the damn dragon cant miss interpret your wish

[trim grotto]

Exactly

[shadow warren]

That’s what Mara did isn’t

[ember storm]

the fact they were literally just changing venus and sending people off cliffs means the power isn't derived from wishes

they just do it

[jolly vector]

but I also guess you literally cant just wish the darkness to go away

[ember storm]

the "wish" is them capitalizing on your desires

it's not like exclusive genie powers

[trim grotto]

Actually no
Well, yes, she did, but she didn't have to
Mara's sense of mind, control, meant that she never accidentally wished to Riven, and when she did it was as clear as crystal.

Everyone else though?

Far safer to use the Wall

[shadow warren]

So she never actually made a wish

She just what, told riven what she wanted?

[trim grotto]

She did, she made plenty
But she was very particular and aware of what she wished

[jolly vector]

feels ironic that because the guardians were so strong that the curses were just that fucked up

[trim grotto]

She used Riven to create Eleusinia for example

[shadow warren]

Wdym by “she never wished to riven” then

[wheat latch]

So poorly worded wishes can be twisted but properly worded ones can't?

[trim grotto]

read one word prior

[shadow warren]

Or did she just not address the wish to riven

Omg I dumb lol

I read accidentally as actually

[trim grotto]

it's what happened to Uldren, Fikrul, and how the Scorn were created

Uldren accidentally, unknowingly, Wished Fikrul to live.

Fikrul could not never truly die, and when experimented on, his Darkness/Wish corrupted Ether created the Scorn.

[shadow warren]

Was there a point where ahamkara wishes just couldn’t be carried out

If that makes sense

Like is there something they couldn’t do? Could we just wish the witness to die and the end?

[trim grotto]

Not in any explicit case but I imagine the stronger the Wish the more they need... feeding.
And any Wish they can't grant is probably manipulated in some manner.

For example, the Red Box

I doubt we can simply Wish the Witness to death though

[shadow warren]

Which was what

[trim grotto]

The Nine used to Wish to the Ahamkara as well

[shadow warren]

I mean probably not but in theory

Something to that effect

[trim grotto]

The Nine always wanted to become real, become flesh. Untethered to the celestial bodies of Sol, unbound to the life within it. So they tried to Wish to the Ahamkara, before the Great Hunt.

[sick yew]

You know a month ago I would have said even an Ahamkara couldnt grant the wish of being able to use Monte Carlo as a meele weapon

But uhm yeah

[shadow warren]

Somebody did it

[ember storm]

it would probably turn it into the caber from tf2 and cause it to explode the moment it makes contact with an enemy

[shadow warren]

So the red box was the wishes’s caveat

[trim grotto]

Lavinia realizes that the Agent of the Nine is laughing.```

[shadow warren]

Trying to connect the dots here

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-ishtar-sink
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-red-box
It's actually quite funny when you put it together

[shadow warren]

Was the “body” given to them a literal red box

[trim grotto]

The "dust" was not dust, but perfect dust-size copies of worlds, planets, the solar system and more.

The Nine, who are... dark matter dust that flows in loops through the worlds, wanted to become real. And so the Ahamkara Wish made this box.

It was once of the Nine. It commingled.

Turned the dust of worlds into actual dust of worlds

ever write a word so much it looks wrong
dust

[shadow warren]

Interesting

[wheat latch]

I'm having trouble really understanding this, did Azirim betray the awoken? and is Azirim an ahamkara (dumb question sorry but i cant rly tell)

[trim grotto]

Yes and yes

[trim grotto]

Listen to the next link

It may clear it up

[wheat latch]

ohhh

[ember storm]

And to those who happened to glance toward the gardens from far-off pavilions, it seemed a merry parade, a joyous chorus.

And they did not hear the singing stop.

And they did not hear the bodies dashed against the shore below.

And they did not see Azirim grow, or laugh, or flee.```

[trim grotto]

actually click it by the way the embed doesn't do it justice

[wheat latch]

what was the desire to walk off the cliff?

oh i just sw this
Step past the tree. Peek down over the ledge. That drop goes on for some time. Now imagine a voice whispering to you, luring you, promising you that your feet will find solid ground where, in truth, there is only air… Ahamkara lies.

[ember storm]

as i said before, not everything ahamkara do revolves around desires

[shadow warren]

Esilia was one of the people that jumped right

She was one of the people captivated

[wheat latch]

it says they saved none of them so i'd assume so

[trim grotto]

As far as I am aware, I believe so

[wheat latch]

eris wished to an ahamkara but lost her eyes because of it right? i am pretty sure this came up a while ago when i asked abt eris

[trim grotto]

You know her little Soulfire Orb?

[wheat latch]

her rock, that's on cayde's map? yeah

[trim grotto]

That's an Ahamkara Bone she kept from the Great Hunt.
It was that which took her eyesight, but also what taught her where to go.

Inside the Hellmouth, specifically.

Trapped, Lightless, alone.

[wheat latch]

gotcha

[trim grotto]

Stuck in the deepest part of the Moon in Hive tunnels.

[wheat latch]

i saw in the latest cutscene or drawing scene that her ghost seemed to die by being drained, is that what happened?

just the way they showed it dying looked like it was drained of light to me

[trim grotto]

Something like that. Brya sacrificed herself to save Eris from a Deathsong.

I actually haven't seen the cutscene yet

[wheat latch]

oh sorry

[ember storm]

yeah apparently we already got an inkblot on week 2 of the season

not sure what to make of it

maybe we get another but i'm not sure

[wheat latch]

is that what they're called? inkblots?

[ember storm]

it's the style of the art with the way the ink just forms on the paper like it's just being poured

[wheat latch]

it was a pretty informative one imo but i didnt have any prior knowledge on a lot of the topics in it though

[ember storm]

i think the LF cutscene with Caiatl and Calus is the only time it's been different from that, aside from the D1 ones

[wheat latch]

yeah, it's like the ones from borderlands, which are very cool

[ember storm]

well i guess there was also the forsaken cutscene with all the barons

but it was still the same principle

just bounty cards instead of a bit canvas

[trim grotto]

by the way
"You're going to get a big scoop here," he says. "Strand was never designed for Witch Queen. For one thing, it just takes us longer than a year cycle to make a whole new damage type… Even the green correlation is really funny to us because Strand didn't start out from someone writing 'Green Power' on the white board." Instead, he says that in the same way that Stasis thematically fit the blasted tundra of Beyond Light, so Strand suited the neon synthwave-iness of Lightfall. "Strand was all Lightfall, all the time," reiterates Blackburn, "and I'm sure that some people will never believe me unless they can go and see the flag fluttering on the moon."
anyone who wants to say Strand was meant for WQ can now bite a lemon

[wheat latch]

lmaoooooo

i love that last remark

[ember storm]

literally the only point of reference people have is the concept of deepsight and the warlock strand super being on the armor (even though it literally isn't, it's the ring of worms from the legend campaign emblem)

[versed orbit]

and it’s green

[wheat latch]

meh, color is color, doesnt mean correlation

speaking of color, why is siva always red? if it was intended for creation why not a more positive color

[ember storm]

bungie thought it'd look cool

[wheat latch]

fair point

[trim grotto]

It also fits in with the aesthetics of the Devil Splicers.

House of Devils and their fanatical ofshoot of the Splicers used red colours.

Easy pairing for an enemy faction.

[jagged badge]

People are still saying it

“Clearly Bungie are lying”

“If Strand wasn’t meant for Witch Queen why were there thread motifs”

[trim grotto]

then i shall correct them then ignore them

for i haven't the time for them

[wheat latch]

in this lore entry is her ghost asking her to repeat names?
are these her team members who died?
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ghost-fragment-eris-morns-ghost?highlight=brya+eris

[trim grotto]

Yes. To drown out the other chanting.

The chanting of the Hive.

[wheat latch]

and was eris distracted just enough to not be killed by the song, why did her ghost die, and was it this line "[b:12] Sai, Omar—" where brya dies?

[trim grotto]

Brya stayed behind.

[b:01] No time! Run!
[chorus:01] Eir… Ur… Xol… Yul…
[b:02] The song! Don't listen!
[b:03] Think of something else!```

So that the Hive would not see Eris's Light.

[b:01] There's no other way.
[em:02] Don't ask me to do this.
[b:02] Just promise me one thing.
[em:03] Ghost… please…
[b:03] Don't look back.```

[wheat latch]

but what about the light within brya?

[trim grotto]

Exactly why she stayed behind.

[wheat latch]

oh

that's sad

[trim grotto]

It is indeed.

[wheat latch]

how did her fireteam die?

[trim grotto]

Oh, that varies per person.

Omar Agah had his essence torn out of his body, consciousness included. He became the bug found within Xenopage.

[empty fern]

Gimme that xeno

[trim grotto]

Sai Mota succumbed to the Wormrot, and Yuka could no longer raise her.

Razor lost Vell Tarlowe to the hoards of Thrall and the axe of a Darkblade

Eriana-3 died to the Deathsong, presumably Jax along with her

[wheat latch]

same one that brya died to?

[trim grotto]

Toland the Shattered left of his own accord to seek out the Deathsingers and ascend to his current state. Guren died in the process willingly.

[trim grotto]

I assume so

[wind belfry]

reject humanity

become bug

[trim grotto]

He was kinda forcibly torn from humanity

[wheat latch]

why couldnt toland be trusted?
[j:04] If anyone is listening… don't trust Toland.

[trim grotto]

Toland the Shattered, mad exiled Warlock, scholar of the Hive, devout follower of Sword Logic, betrayer of Eriana's fireteam, abandoned them to seek out the Deathsingers.

[wheat latch]

oh

[em:04] I know.
[e3:06] When she laughed, the dishes would rattle. You remember that?``` who are they talking abt here? they're in a saloon in the tower

[ember storm]

probably wei ning

[trim grotto]

Wei Ning, Eriana-3's partner. She died in the Great Disaster, along with hundreds of other Guardians.

It's why Eriana organised the Fireteam in the first place.

Vengence.

[idle raptor]

why would he do that?

he just.. left the whole place to find deathsingers?

[trim grotto]

To become what he is now. A wisp, immortal, able to sail the Sea of Screams at will and whimsy.

A knowledge seeker no longer barred from the Dark and caustic depths of the Ascendant Plane.

[ember storm]

he led the only people who cared about him to their deaths to accomplish it

[blazing wasp]

Like that guy in TotK who eats gems

[jagged badge]

You missed an ‘a’ you silly billy

[ember storm]

basically tricked all of them into acting as bait so he could get close

[trim grotto]

Vengencea

[blazing wasp]

Venageance

Vegance

[ember storm]

vegan

[jagged badge]

There you go

[blazing wasp]

Vegetariance

[trim grotto]

Veterenariance

[blazing wasp]

Veterinariance

Wait

[idle raptor]

how come eris mourns his name when chanting then? shouldn't she hate him?

[blazing wasp]

Yeha that's a different word just checking

[jagged badge]

She has mixed emotions towards him I guess

[trim grotto]

Ironically, he is a reason why she survived. Without his journal, she would have perished long ago.

[wheat latch]

sorry, rapid fire questions here cuz i'm curious, first off vell's last remark is very cool and quite true imo, but what did toland know that the others didnt?

[vt:04] They didn't know what Toland knows.
[oa:05] Toland again!
[vt:05] Toland again. I don't trust my weapons. I use them.
[silence]
[oa:06] Fair enough.```
<https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ghost-fragment-vell-tarlowes-ghost#vell-tarlowe>

[jagged badge]

Toland was the Hive expert but I believe he kept his knowledge kinda close to his chest?

[trim grotto]

Much. His obsession with the Hive left him knowledgeable.
Think of modern day Eris's Hive knowledge compared to... well, yours.

[ember storm]

damn

marl is ruthless today

[jagged badge]

How rude

[trim grotto]

I didn't mean it like that haha

[jagged badge]

Sure

[ember storm]

byf cancelled

[idle raptor]

" how DARE you not know how a ritual circle is made ???? "

smh

[wheat latch]

wow.
i know a lot abt the hive okay

[trim grotto]

[idle raptor]

is that why she has 3 eyes

[rich veldt]

cancel marl byfnt everyone

[blazing wasp]

Really then? Who wrote the books of sorrow

[wheat latch]

me

[ember storm]

possibly?

i mean his journals might've had something about hive biology she needed

otherwise it's a bit much to not only implant acolyte eyes into your empty sockets but also put an additional one in her forehead

[trim grotto]

It isn't actually entirely clear why she has three eyes
But we know how she lost her eyes

[ember storm]

frontal lobe be damned my girl can cast spells

[blazing wasp]

Guardian this journal is essential to me I need to know what the left eye of acolytes is called

[blazing wasp]

Can't believe fnaf makes people wizards

[idle raptor]

thinking about the great disaster irks me

[ember storm]

the crying child had tons of magical experiences in his coma before he died

[idle raptor]

just who had the idea to send all the guardians to crota ( without proper planning )

[ember storm]

the speaker mostly

[idle raptor]

zavala would've never agreed with that, right?

[idle raptor]

oh

[wheat latch]

five nights at freddy's??

[ember storm]

it was a consensus vote

the vanguard leaders would only make up 3/7s

[idle raptor]

ah

that's sad

[trim grotto]

Shaxx actually warned against it

[ember storm]

yeah well they're all dead or gone so jokes on them

it's the main reason he's so fixated on crucible

[rich veldt]

7 to 2 in not much time

[ember storm]

"i'd be out there with you guardian, if these rookies could just fend for themselves"

[idle raptor]

I pray shaxx will be with us in TFS

he can't just stay out of the fight with this one. he's the only warlord left

[ember storm]

was he in that WQ cutscene

i can't remember

[rich veldt]

yes he can

[idle raptor]

yes

[blazing wasp]

The crying child did not miss his frontal lobe, the victim of the bite of 87 missed their frontal lobe, know your lore.

[jagged badge]

Smh Waltz

[rich veldt]

do you see elsie or drifter anywhere in tfs? (removing eris cause we dont know if she even finishing the season)

[blazing wasp]

In the trailer

[ember storm]

would you like to hear a fun fact about the decomposition of the human body

[idle raptor]

we do

at least Elsie

[rich veldt]

shitttt im blind ok

[blazing wasp]

Drifter that is

In his ship

With his mask seen in beyond light

[idle raptor]

well in any case. shaxx isn't there and it worries me

[ember storm]

because he's not narratively relevant

and only exists as a pvp vendor maybe

[wheat latch]

shaxx is too busy keeping the helmet on

[ember storm]

send a ss

i am lazy

[blazing wasp]

On phone

Can't take ss

[rich veldt]

how does it worry you, he just training new lights and playing dodge ball with kids of the city

[ember storm]

he is busy braining toddlers with wiffle balls

he has a tight schedule

[rich veldt]

we cant send every compotent main character thats how you loose all leadership

[blazing wasp]

He's still yelling at that nova bombing warlock

[wheat latch]

eris said that kills in crucible count as tithes to her, does that me we can just farm ourselves

[ember storm]

if only there was a previous event with this line of logic

something akin to a great disaster

oh well

[blazing wasp]

Cough cough # great disaster # cough cough

Fuck

[trim grotto]

smooth

[rich veldt]

you mean the terrible success?

[idle raptor]

because hes probably the biggest offense we have on our side as a Guardian ( aside from us ) and is the best warlord there was. we have people like Saint and Saladin to protect the tower, so it wouldn't be entirely defenseless

[rich veldt]

what

[ember storm]

the awful ordeal

[blazing wasp]

The fuckening

[rich veldt]

shaxx aint that strong budy

[wheat latch]

how do we rank in comparison to the vanguard and shaxx? arent we like literally useless compared to them

[ember storm]

Saladin is literally always in the field on Caiatl's war council

[blazing wasp]

Yeah twilight gap was shaxx taking a gamble, and winning, not because he's some god

[idle raptor]

none of the iron lords could lay a hand on him, neither could the other warlords. he's battle hardened from dark age which was a miserable time for most and still considers himself a warlord

[blazing wasp]

A single iron lord fought him, that's it, no?

[idle raptor]

Saladin is on our side too, but he's with Caiatl now

[trim grotto]

Felwinter, multiple times. Felwinter trained Osiris.

[idle raptor]

The best of the Iron Lords yeah

[blazing wasp]

Yeah

[rich veldt]

i mean felwinter very much coulda laid a hand on him but he woulda flattened a village doing so

[blazing wasp]

Reading it, didn't seem like felwinter exactly was out for blood there

[trim grotto]

He wasn't, really.

More like delaying and reasoning with Shaxx.

[ember storm]

we killed 3 iron lords empowered by golden age nanomachines

[rich veldt]

the iron lords didnt fight shaxx as they didnt have much need to

[idle raptor]

neither was shaxx and he still decapitated fel in a single backhand punch

[blazing wasp]

So I don't really consider that instance representative of shaxx' strength

[ember storm]

literally every guardian is capable of that

[blazing wasp]

Anyone could decapitate fel

[ember storm]

because they're paracausal

[blazing wasp]

If they got to him

[ember storm]

also felwinter is a robot

[rich veldt]

humans with super strength do super strength stuff

[blazing wasp]

Neither were particularly giving their all

[idle raptor]

^

[blazing wasp]

which is why it's a flawed representative of shaxx strength

[rich veldt]

the only reason the decapitation happened is felwinter was annoyed and was gonna pop a fat nova bomb that woulda probably flattened the villafe

[blazing wasp]

Two people having a slap fight isn't a accurate measurement to use

[idle raptor]

and yet felwinter couldn't win once. I firmly believe if they did give their all, shaxx would still fold fel. no other warlord messed with shaxx and fel even killed Citan if I'm not wrong?

[blazing wasp]

Felwinter wasn't trying.

[idle raptor]

I firmly believe if they did give their all

[blazing wasp]

They didn't mess with shaxx not because they were scared of him but because they genuinely didn't want to kill shaxx

[idle raptor]

I'm aware neither tried much but fel still died

~~ more than once ~~

[blazing wasp]

Yeah that means exactly nothing since anyone can do that

[rich veldt]

shaxx caused next to no trouble compared to the other warlords, the iron lords had few quarells with him

[blazing wasp]

If anything, your example puts shaxx at the strength of an average guardian. That's not accurate

Shaxx wasn't messed with because they were attempting to, iirc, recruit him as an iron lord

Or something along the lines of cooperation

A employer doesn't kill his potential employee

Usually at least.

[ember storm]

it's fun how beating 3 starving beggars to death with your bare hands was considered alright in the dark age

[idle raptor]

not to put down this argument but this did sound pretty tense. shaxx was confident he could've stopped fels void light, that's got to be something

[blazing wasp]

Me when I ask for the time in dark age london

[blazing wasp]

Sure but it has next to no info to measure his strength

[ember storm]

this whole conversation is meaningless anyway

[blazing wasp]

It means he's at least as strong as a lightbearer

[ember storm]

Shaxx is never going out into the field unless he's confident crucible has successfully trained guardians in everything they need to know

[rich veldt]

who woulda thought setting a bomb off inside a building brings said building down on top of you

[ember storm]

he's not going with us in FS

end of discussion

[blazing wasp]

Me, I'm very intelligent

[rich veldt]

shaxx wont be included as he serves no narrative purpose

[blazing wasp]

Shaxx' narrative purpose is cool dialogue within lore tabs of guns, armor and various cosmetic items

[idle raptor]

found something. fel uses his void light here, clearly trying and still gets handled. the second image is the small army shaxx brought

tsk, I messed up text

while I don't disagree shaxx isn't too big of a character, he definitely deserves to be out there with us and the vanguard

[rich veldt]

no he doesnt

he doesnt add anything except being more likely to die

[idle raptor]

I already said what he adds if he did come with us, as for dying, maybe, but then they'd need a new vendor

[rich veldt]

how does his fights with felwinter show anything compared to the forces of the dripness?

[idle raptor]

he's been challenged for centuries by multiple different people, by the warlords, and is the only alive warlord left ( that we know of ). he's the person who handles the entire crucible and trains guardians into fighting guardians and helping them get better, which means he's a great tactician or commander for guardians in combat. I reckon he'd be able to manage himself and help us out nicely

[ember storm]

being a warlord isn't an achievement yknow

[idle raptor]

the only alive warlord left

and that's not by luck

[ember storm]

oh wow shaxx is a great fighter he oppressed a group of lightless people struggling for survival

so cool

[wheat latch]

what happened to Omar's ghost, Karsys

[rich veldt]

omg shaxx can train baby new lights oh wait he died tryna solo a subjugator and he ghost was killed

[ember storm]

so have you just not been following the conversation at all

if warlords were unwilling to cooperate the iron lords killed them

[rich veldt]

how it would go if he got included in tfs

[ember storm]

either that or they joined and followed the iron decree

shaxx just decided not to join but didn't oppose them

[idle raptor]

because of his people

[rich veldt]

whats your obsession with shaxx? if he gets any narrative inclusion he is almost definatly dead

[idle raptor]

not really an obsession. it just sounds weird everyone's joining us on the pale heart but he stays behind

[ember storm]

"My victims were Humans too," Shaxx clarified, and the Kell felt his anger twist into confusion. "I was a Warlord in the Dark Ages. Convinced myself of the necessity of my own barbarism by painting it with noble colors. Those loyal to me built a legend that masked the blood and the rot. But it's still there."

[ember storm]

what's your definition of "everyone"

is devrim coming?

sloane?

[rich veldt]

hawthorne bouta just rock up

[ember storm]

what about mithrax

[ember storm]

YOU JUST NEVER QUIT DO YOU

[idle raptor]

mithrax sounds plausible. devrim is human and Sloane is taken

drifter ( who was in the dark ages and hanged out with the iron lords ) is coming

and that just sounds kinda dumb when you see shaxx ain't there

[ember storm]

drifter is actually narratively relevant and has more to him than being old

Shaxx has zero recent involvements or importance

[rich veldt]

drifter will be there cause its drifter. remember the start of deep, when he was told to fuck off and still remained?

[ember storm]

his most recent escapade was just existiing during the red war

shaxx has a self-appointed duty and isn't going anywhere until it's fulfilled

end of story

[idle raptor]

but that's not because he's not interesting, it's because the story writers decided for drifter over shaxx

there's plenty of characters that could have important relevance but aren't necessarily written on much

[rich veldt]

thats because drifter has a reason to get story development

shaxx has no reason to get story relevance and when he does it gonna be like amanda

[fiery copper]

Hes not really a frontline character, never has been

His biggest involvement in the light and dark saga so far is being in the background of the worm cutscene in zavalas office

[rich veldt]

dont forget opening a door in red war

[fiery copper]

Ah yeah my bad I forgot

God remember when people were salty he had raze lighter

His own sword

That he LET us use

He did literally everything except gather the materials

He doordashed some hadium flakes and now people think that makes it ours

[blazing wasp]

Is this why uber eats delivery people think they own the food

[void kettle]

Are Uber eats people constructing my burger after I collect the money to form it?

[jagged trellis]

Btw they add fucking tormentors to the altars of summoning

[tawdry mauve]

this is lore discussion

but still dope

[trim grotto]

That seems rather reasonable from a lore perspective.

[jagged trellis]

Their annoying

[trim grotto]

But this is the lore chat. It doesn't matter if they're annoying.

[tawdry mauve]

skill issue

also this is lore chat

[jagged badge]

What about their annoying?

[empty fern]

Man gone

[fallen mason]

they left 😭😭😭😭😭

[fiery copper]

Their annoying what?

[shadow warren]

Y’all made him leave oml

[fiery copper]

Lol what

[rich wyvern]

omg cutscene this week?

[rich wyvern]

omg was waltz in here being a downer again

[ember storm]

[rich wyvern]

omg do yall remember Tropaea

will that ever be relevant or just another abandoned idea

[ember storm]

never heard of it

[rich wyvern]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/sleepless
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/fragment
also "SUBJ: FOLLOWUP ON AFFIDAVIT FOR INCID #12059" from WQCE book

all 3 describe an incident where eris and mara go to a pyramid ship and mara seemingly fucking obliterates it

except in sjur's dream, uldren/crow is there and says some weird ass word "Tropaea"

[empty fern]

Tropical

[fiery copper]

On one hand, Eris X Drifter content

On the other

Theyre totally gonna kill off Eris for emotional impact aren't they

[empty fern]

If xivu is gonna come back during episode 3 heresy then sadly yea

[fiery copper]

[empty fern]

Unless with the savathun lines we got this week, calling her and oryx a hypocrite, then just maybe xivu will coward away

[fiery copper]

Bungie try not to kill your most interesting characters challenge (status: calamitous)

[empty fern]

Or we just kinda, brush the ending iff

[empty fern]

First it was cayde, then it was Amanda, then it was zavalas soul
Now it could be eris

Or was it Zavala then Amanda

[fiery copper]

Rasputin too

[empty fern]

Oh yea

Oh I wonder

How is eido doing?

[fiery copper]

Give you 3 guesses how many lore tabs she's been mentioned in since Plunder

[empty fern]

2?

Gimme higher or lower pls

[fiery copper]

Idk I haven't read any lore books lately

[empty fern]

You mf-

[fiery copper]

[empty fern]

Holdon which lore nerd is online rn

None of them

Damn

[fiery copper]

I'm a nerd for anything that came out pre-WQ

That's about when I stopped reading every single new lorebook because bungie started making 50 MILLION NEW ONES EVERY SINGLE SEASON

[empty fern]

Hey

They paying attention

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

Oh someone woke up

Go check on what happened to eido

[real ingot]

I'm here

[empty fern]

Go check on eido,

[real ingot]

She's been speaking with Eris lately

She knows what's happening

she has faith in her

[empty fern]

I see

Eido as in mithraxes daughter?

[real ingot]

yes

No other living Eido

[empty fern]

Oh yea

Nice

[trim grotto]

Not much. Talking to Eris. Helping the Eliksni. Being creeped out by Eris's transformation.

[empty fern]

Yay, relevant still

[dim minnow]

The Collector's Edition for TFS will contain a book that has a bunch of research she collected on the Witness in regards to its origins

so prepare for more Eido stuff once we start seeing people get the TFS CE

[empty fern]

Nice

Also why are ALL of you suddenly on

[smoky rose]

The consensus lore people move in herds

[empty fern]

Indeed yall do

[real ingot]

Mael works late at night

Dova is busy shooting his cat with Ghally

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-park-gif-4474990

[shadow jay]

"the helmet stayed on"

[trim grotto]

Doesn't mean what you think it means

[dim minnow]

oh you still remember that

[shadow jay]

i know exactly what it means

[dim minnow]

I never did post that image to Reddit