📚lore-discussion

[chrome fog]

I know, but where did you hear it from

[raw grail]

From Cayde

[fast tapir]

bro what

mf is finding the worst misinformation

[tawdry mauve]

he definetely cannot

[raw grail]

Don't think about it too much XD

Clearly my joke didn't work

[empty fern]

This is lore, mf we gotta think about it a lot

[raw grail]

you're right mb

[heady mantle]

Solar energy lets you walk on the sun using the power of orange sprite

And lavender flavoured sunscreen

[raw grail]

So... You're telling me that Sprite survived the collapse?

[heady mantle]

Fr

[raw grail]

Damn bro

[heady mantle]

OK REAL QUESTION

What if

What would happen and what would it take

To envelop the sun in stasis

[raw grail]

It's hard to answer that question seriously

[heady mantle]

Take it kurzgesagt style

[tawdry mauve]

not much

well

if you have a hypothetically strong enough darkness user

im sure they could

but idk why stasis specifically

[heady mantle]

Idk, ice

[tawdry mauve]

stasis is not ice

[heady mantle]

🤓

You're boutta tell me solar isn't fire

[tawdry mauve]

stasis isnt ice bruh

its not some nerd thing

ice is frozen water

stasis is frozen space

[heady mantle]

ohhhh i see i see

so it's this

[tawdry mauve]

no

[heady mantle]

so technically

stasis is space ice

[tawdry mauve]

its not ice

its frozen space

[heady mantle]

details

[tawdry mauve]

if you take an imaginary radius in empty space in front of you

and you stop all movemement with in

you would create the perfect crystals that make up stasis

[raw grail]

Thank you, I will now call stasis users Mr./Mrs. Freeze

[heady mantle]

Stasis is just mr.freeze freeze pops

Confirmed

[raw grail]

So, if we use stasis on the sun, it may mess with its magnetic field

[chrome fog]

Ice is slowing h2o particles down to the point they become rigid and form a solid
Stasis is slowing any particles down in a set area and they become (relatively) absolutely still

[slim pewter]

Its why stasis shattering is so violent as its essentially reinstating all movement to particles in that area suddenly

[uneven canyon]

Savathun said we’d learn how to move planets i.e take

So is that what the next subclass will be?

[exotic cloak]

Was there any explanation of the sign that leads us to GoS?

[dim minnow]

sign?

you mean signal?

[exotic cloak]

That, sorry, I'm using the translator

[dim minnow]

the pyramid artifact we got at the end of Shadowkeep broadcasted a signal that leads into the Black Garden, so we do GoS to follow it

we end up taking the same path the Kentarch 3 did

and we end up fighting the Sanctified Mind on top of the stump of the first Tree of Silver Wings

then we go inside of it where we discover a Veil statue

[smoky rose]

Unlikely imo for a few reasons

A: planets encounter in Root
B: Bungie doesn't like to do expected things
C: "taking" doesn't really oppose Arc or Void (depending on your opinion of what strand opposes)

[safe galleon]

ice is frozen water

which stasis isnt

[fast tapir]

that's actually so cool

[chrome fog]

It’s also one of our hints towards the Garden in Unveiling actually existing

[tawdry mauve]

so uh about the veil

is it somewhat safe to say that its basically the mind based version of the traveller?

where the traveller deals with the physical which manifests as light, the veil deals with essentially the psychological which manifests as darkness

both of which (light and dark) are already established primordial forces within the universe

[chrome fog]

It is stated many times to be a counterpart to the Traveler

Ahsa says as much

Also ties into those old theories of the Veil being another piece of the Gardener or the Winnower; both are true in a sense

Also ties into all the comments from Ghost about it feeling like the Traveler

[torpid flint]

So the big lore question atm is

Is the Winnowner real? Or just an image the Witness created that it wants to be?

this is the big question right?

[real ingot]

it's a question

the answer changes nothing

I'd say the bigger question is how do we use the Veil to our benefit

[slim elk]

Asking savathun seems like the best bet for answering that

[real ingot]

nowhere else to go

We can assume Maya and Neomuna never got further than the Cloudark and Lakshmi with the Veil

limitted by their causal nature

[slim elk]

Jurys still out on that.. well. Mayas part in it anyway

Neomuna clearly had the history books rewritten to keep the population ignorant and complacent

[tawdry wigeon]

Hey new to lore but im trying to put together every biiiiig piece of lore and the darkness with the pyramids etc and im trying to understand if some alien races have been corrupted by the darkness. Cabal yes with calus, dreg yes with stasis, then savathun comes next her race was corrupted to the core, taken? Idk what they are im trynna understand them, vex i have zero idea im so interested in them but the last time i remember them as a huge part of lore was back in venus i think it was or mercury i dont remember it was years ago with the huge portals etc and with osiris. Anyway if anyone has lore things to help me with i would appreciate it a ton

[devout nimbus]

You mean the hive?

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea

[devout nimbus]

Well they were known as the Krill before they got worms

To feed the worms they need to destroy stuff

[tawdry wigeon]

Worms as worm gods?

[devout nimbus]

Kinda

[tawdry wigeon]

I remember doing a strike waaaay back when mars was a full planet

[devout nimbus]

Like pieces of the worm gods mother

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohh i see i see

[devout nimbus]

Each hive that doesn't have the light has a worm that they need to feed, or they'll die

As for the vex

They just hate everything that isn't themselves and want to turn everything into them

[chrome fog]

Another theory I’ve rambled about: Winnower could just be an idealized deity that the Witness wanted the Veil to be after it didn’t really give them anything. In Ahsa’s account, they found the Darkness by studying it, not communing with the Veil itself. As for how that plays into the Veil Containment Logs revealing Maya being influenced after studying the Veil, there’s two explanations:

• the Witness simply reached through the Darkness to influence Maya, without knowing she accessed the Darkness through the Veil, which was hidden away by Savathun in the Collapse.
• The Veil itself adopted the Witness’ ideals and aimed to become like the Winnower, coinciding with the Witness’ own journey to become the Winnower themselves; the Darkness could have gone both ways, and in fact there is that Inspiral entry which might be the Witness answering the Veil, coinciding with the Winnower being portrayed as counterpart to the Traveler/Gardener when the Veil is seemingly different

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohh hmm okay about vex, i remember doing a quest that had a vex portal i needed to go through at the moon like deeeep inside the red hive castle. What was that? Also do the vex have anything to do with the darkness or no?

[chrome fog]

They harvest it by simulating other beings, having those simulations worship artifacts of Darkness

Black Heart is one notable artifact

But they cannot simulate Paracausality

[devout nimbus]

Yeah

[tawdry wigeon]

So they are not corrupted by it like the others

[devout nimbus]

The sol divisive vex (black hear worshippers) are connected with the darkness

As well as taken vex

The rest of them aren't

[chrome fog]

Not just any dregs, House Salvation under Eramis’ lead, who sought a power opposite to the Traveler’s since she felt like the Traveler betrayed the Eliksni when it left Riis in the Whirlwind, when in reality the Traveler was leading the Hive and Pyramid ships away from Riis

[chrome fog]

Somewhat since they’re trying to gain paracausal power for themselves to beat everyone else who has Paracausality; it’s not working

Some projects that arose out of harvesting Darkness include the Vault of Glass and again, the Black Garden

[devout nimbus]

Butt every time they make progress, we stop them

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohhh got it got it

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea yea i meant them

Another dumb question

Whos sol....

I keep seeing him way too much

[devout nimbus]

Sol is the star system that we are in

Or solar system

(Very creative name)

[chrome fog]

For the Taken, they are beings whose will has been taken over by another’s, someone who has gained the power to Take. Their physical form has been perfected to complete their master’s objective and their will is whatever their master wills it to be.
This power was first taught to Oryx after he killed Akka and sought audience with the Deep - aka the Witness - and then he etched the method to Take in the Tablets of Sorrow, which he hid across the cosmos. Savathun and Xivu did eventually learn the power to Take however

The Sol System is the name of the Solar System we current occupy

[fresh zephyr]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7bWbn5bk_uc

Byf is typically pretty easy to understand and this video starts at the beginning.

If you want to I mean it’s optional

But you did ask

[tawdry wigeon]

They make him sound almighty and extremely powerful i was confused

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea it makes sense now i havent played d1 so I didn't know

[tawdry wigeon]

Ill def check it out thank you!

[chrome fog]

I would like to mention that the video linked is 2 years old and we have had many revelations in Witch Queen as well as Lightfall and each of their respective seasons

[tawdry wigeon]

So i should wait for more info?

I remember seeing the first pyramid in the moon i had goosebumps

Shame the weird green moon lady didnt appear in this story

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah but I couldn’t find the most recent lightfall one but There’s probably a playlist it’s in

Should still catch him up tho

[fresh zephyr]

Just ignore his speculation on what’s happening in the future

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh alright i will

[chrome fog]

It should have a majority of the info as Beyond Light has a majority of initial revelations as to what the Darkness really is, Witch Queen and Lightfall just elaborate that the Darkness as we once knew it is not inherently corruptive, it’s simply the Witness’ influence through the Darkness that was morally corrupting people. The Darkness as it truly is simply connects to the mental aspect of reality, whilst the Light is connected to the physical aspect.

[chrome fog]

Would also like to caution a bit of Byf’s content, he tends to go spinfoiling a bit

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh perfect explanation thank you!

[tawdry wigeon]

Spinfoil? Whats that?

[chrome fog]

Spin theories + tinfoil = spinfoil; some of us loreheads also do the same but we acknowledge that they are reliant on reaching for possible outcomes and our theories aren’t set in stone. Byf had the tendency to say his own theories are the only possible outcome of narrative threads despite being proven wrong before

[ember storm]

corruption is a lot more complicated than just having access to something like stasis

but taken as a whole are solely made up of other species/races after they've been cut down and rendered 'final', presumably by the witness

[chrome fog]

Oh hey, Rezyl Azzir - Dredgen Yor - got his gun cursed by a Wizard and became corrupted that way; his gun, Rose, got corrupted into the original Thorn gun

[ember storm]

really it was his own fault

"yes let me put the bones of the death worshipping aliens with literal magic on my most prized object"

[chrome fog]

Didn’t know they could do curses through them; when we make our replicas in D1 and D2 it’s been crafted properly to account for cursing

[tawdry wigeon]

Got it thankss

[tawdry wigeon]

Well stasis after a bit it became a corruption no? She couldn't control it so it corrupted her

[chrome fog]

Not really

It’s corruptive in that it’s a great bribing tool by the Witness to get others to join its cause

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh i see then

[chrome fog]

But other than that, it can only be controlled through pyramid splinters, which is probably what the Witness uses to hold Stasis users hostage

[tawdry wigeon]

Manipulating is a better word

[chrome fog]

Save for when we took control ourselves; same with Elsie, Eris, and Drifter

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea true splinters

[ember storm]

i mean the whole point of BL is how we're able to showcase stasis can be used properly

[tawdry wigeon]

Btw where is eris this dlc?

[ember storm]

it only makes bad people worse

[tawdry wigeon]

Not a single mention of her

[ember storm]

Eris has zero relevancy in Lightfall

there's no reason for her to be involved

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh i thought she would since yk darkness and all that she was obsessed with it

Back in the moon

[ember storm]

that's a very condensed understanding of her character

her speciality is in hive magic specifically

which is basically just diet darkness

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh got it

She could use stasis too iirc

[ember storm]

because elsie contacted her and taught her

[chrome fog]

Waltz you got this, cause I need to charge my phone and sleep

[tawdry wigeon]

I'll go to sleep too im not gonna take up any of your time dw its just nice talking about lore while relaxing i love it

Is there any timeline of every event that happen before small or big

?

[ember storm]

there is a timeline menu in game consisting of every dlc and season

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea I know but like is there any timeline online with detailed stuff for everything that happened so far?

[smoky rose]

Actually fun fact, in the top right of the destination menu there is a timeline

Online I don’t think there is one that’s up to date

[tawdry wigeon]

Mhm ive seen it its quite useful for a lore noob like me

[chrome fog]

Cryptarchy’s working on making one, though we’re only at the Collapse and Golden Age

There’s PreviouslyOnDestiny but it’s severely out of date

Ishtar Collective has a Timeline as well

[devout nimbus]

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[devout nimbus]

Yeah

Lists some good things

[torpid flint]

Wasn’t that in like Y4?

[trim grotto]

The Ishtar one is good. Dyno made it and he has the most thorough timeline I know of.

[chrome fog]

They’re stuck right before Witch Queen

[pearl basin]

how strong was felwinter ? , and acc to google , he was a voidwalker , but did he use any other subclass , like ikora usually uses arc ?

[ember storm]

ikora usually uses void

[sour galleon]

why did rhulk's pyramid crack when we beat the raid?

[fiery copper]

He kicked us too hard and the force of us slamming into the wall cracked it

[smoky rose]

He was in the process of charging a superweapon when we killed him

[trim grotto]

Strong enough. He was Osiris's mentor.
He could use other elements, yes. All Lightbearers can, though. He's been seen using, for example, Solar.

And as Waltz said, Ikora is most well known for her mastery of Void.

[rigid flower]

Man, I'm sad I missed season of the haunted. The narrative is so good.

[ember storm]

yeah

activity was

alright

[rigid flower]

Yeah I heard the activity was pretty lame, but the story behind the season is top notch.

[tawdry wigeon]

Season of the haunted was top imo

[smoky rose]

The activity drags it down a lot

Its a fucking public event lel

Its like terminal overload

[rigid flower]

Haunted and Seraph probably have the best narratives.

[empty fern]

Whatever happened to season of the splicer ratings?

[rigid flower]

Splicer is good too.

And arguably has the best ending.

[real ingot]

aside from Quria it's seen pretty well

[empty fern]

Nice

[rigid flower]

On the topic of Eliksni, thought I might ask...is there a reason Eido doesn't have hard skin like all other Eliksni have?

[cinder rampart]

huh

[misty juniper]

Is it true that xur confirmed our ghost has sex parts

With something about spading/neutering them

[outer dragon]

That is a Price is Right joke
Nothing in Dares is cannon

[misty juniper]

Ah makes sense

Is dawning canon?

[dim minnow]

Dares is canon

so is Dawning

[misty juniper]

So we milk the vex some how (not being sexual mods) and ghost do have sex parts?

Or do the vex just drop the milk

And if that’s the case why don’t we get more milk from the bigger vex

Why don’t we get milk from the oracles

Can’t we extract the milk from the rivers of radiolaria on europa

Why do they only drop it during a specific time of the year

Is there different concentrations of the milk

Does atheon produce stronger milk then a regular harpy

[dim minnow]

everything Xur does and say in Dares is by the Starhorse's command

[misty juniper]

Interesting

What is the star horse lore wise

Is it one of the nine?

[trim grotto]

Radiolaria is the "milk". Dawning ingredients are not canon. Ghosts don't have genitals. Star Horse is not one of the Nine.

[misty juniper]

Straight to the point I like ya

[empty fern]

Ghost spayed or neutered like is from a reference of an older movie or show

[real ingot]

Bungi

[trim grotto]

Gameshow. Like all of the Dares lines.

[empty fern]

Oh yea

[ember storm]

I have a history with that line

[empty fern]

Oh no

Do NOT elaborate

[chrome fog]

She looks the same as the others, what do you mean?

[rigid flower]

From the looks of it, she doesn't have an outer shell like other Eliksni do. Though, obviously we haven't seen the faces of every Eliksni, so I may be making a false call.

[chrome fog]

Just confirming: no, it’s still a reference to game shows, Ghosts are produced by the Traveler through some mysterious means. She has not made any more since the end of the Collapse, when all Ghosts were made

[ember storm]

i will not

couldn't even if i wanted to

the records of it all are lost to time

and the turks

[ember storm]

she's not special

[rigid flower]

Maybe its how round her head is that's throwing me off.

[ember storm]

it's just that literally every other eliksni we encounter is covering their head

you can plainly see eido's forehead

so it just stands out more

some are just tougher than others

that and eido's pretty young

[rigid flower]

Probably a couple centuries old at most. Who's to say how long ago Riis fell. Though, I don't think Mithrax was born back then, so he's not the oldest fella either.

[ember storm]

i mean

how long ago did eido die?

sjur eido, btw

[real ingot]

He was born on a ketch

[chrome fog]

She

No wait my b

[real ingot]

gestaltzer moment

[empty fern]

Kek

[chrome fog]

I am inundated with lore of several franchises, also I just got off closing shift

Fall semester cannot come soon enough

[trim grotto]

Rude

[empty fern]

Mohawk

[rigid flower]

Waiting for the day we see an Eliksni with a full head of luscious hair.

[ember storm]

i like to imagine fikrul has flowing locks under his helmet

[rigid flower]

He's gonna take it off and it'll flow in slow motion.

[chrome fog]

Like Finn from adventure time

https://tenor.com/view/adventure-time-finn-hair-reveal-sass-gif-5083420

[empty fern]

And it’ll constant be in slow motion even in real time

Like underwater hair

Would definitely fit the darkness theme

[chrome fog]

Definitely need cool floaty hair, surprising we haven’t really had it save for Safiya in Haunted

[empty fern]

Yea

But more ominous

[little gorge]

rhulk but he's literally just kars from jojo

he's got the poses already

[empty fern]

Kek

Rhulk has the jojo poses and nezerac has the street fighter poses

https://tenor.com/view/street-fighter-blanka-yellow-alpha-alpha3-gif-12311556

[ember storm]

if we’re being honest, rhulk is more like santana

[little gorge]

well he has hair too ig

[frigid sparrow]

Trying to piece together some two truths/two lies stuff: When savathun says "The witness seeks the final shape, and the final shape is nothing" this isn't a double answer thing where it's half right half wrong, right? Since it's basically just clarifying what the witness seeks in the end?

[solid egret]

No
The final shale is nothing
No"thing"
Never trust the literal God of deception

Also the final shale has to be something or bungie won't be able to make money of it

[ember storm]

the final shale

[opaque bobcat]

I mean the light doesn’t fall in lightfall

[wind belfry]

it should've

I woulda put a bullet in ghost no questions asked

[trim grotto]

The Ghosts consider the Traveler to be dead

[exotic cloak]

Is a bit dumb question but, what does Shadowkeep mean?

In Spanish the DLC is called "Bastion Escarlata", basically The Scarlet Keeñ and well I don't know if Shadowkeep refers to it or something else

[ember storm]

it’s just a cooler name for the dlc

the story revolves around the thing underneath the scarlet keep, plus scarlet keep is already what the strike is called

shadows and darkness and whatever

[smoky rose]

Most people (myself included) are going to buy it anyways

If nothing else people are committed to seeing the saga through to the end

[slim elk]

What happens after Final Shape is what will be the determining point for Destiny

[exotic cloak]

One writer said they want to focus a lot more on the Vex, and someone talked about Caitl and the Cabals

[chrome fog]

It can be

[frigid sparrow]

there isn't really anything to say we shouldn't take savathun's word with the two truths/two lies stuff. There's multiple options that have become definitive truths and definitive lies that validate her ways of spreading the information in the manner that she did. In general, yeah, don't trust her, but there's merit to the memories

plus we aren't gonna have a choice on whether or not we trust her in the near future so we might as well see what can still be learned with what still isn't known

[ember storm]

cooperation doesn't mean trust

it's definitely just going to be an enemy of my enemy type deal

[rough sand]

I have a theory

Know the rumored third subclass

And savathuns two truths and two lies thing

“The power to move worlds will soon be yours to command”

That got me thinking

Antigravity

I know we have void but that’s different

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[rough sand]

Ah hello Nex

You switched to PlayStation?

[empty fern]

I

Haven’t I always been PlayStation?

[ember storm]

i rember you being blue

[chrome fog]

But see the thing is she’s said some truth amongst her lies, which is why it’s tricky listening to her. Truth to Power gives us much info but there is also blatantly false entries within it

Also sorry, catching up after napping for 6 hours

[smoky rose]

How do you make it tied to consciousnessw

I doubt bungie is making another light subclass and if its darkness it has to be related to thought

[chrome fog]

If it’s leaks in going to be miffed

[chrome fog]

Don’t you dare bring the fucking leaks here, every fucking Destiny YouTuber posted a video on those leaks and it’s annoying as shit

[chrome fog]

It’s very much not

[smoky rose]

Now personally I think its very unlikely for bungie to leave us with only two darkness subclasses

The entire god damn game runs on rules of 3 and they just aren't going to do it? Bullshit.

[chrome fog]

No I know, but i Stc if it’s the leaks I’m gonna be pissed

[ember storm]

Osiris literally calls void "the pull of gravity"

[trim grotto]

The Hive fortress on the Moon is called the Scarlet Keep.

Shadowkeep basically just refers to that but edgier

In that it's in the shadow of the moon and half underground

[frigid sparrow]

we have technically already done this with root of nightmares' third encounter. whether or not this is what she meant by it still has time to be shown, but as of now it's technically a truth

the issue is that insight is still by far the most annoying one to figure out the truths and lies for

because that one works more with technicalities than it does with actual events happening

not that any of the memories have been fully revealed in their truths and lies but "osiris is dead" and "the the witness created the darkness" is a lot easier to determine as truth/lies than everything going on in insight

[rough sand]

I wouldn’t know on that front lol. The only d2 raid I’ve done is lev lmao

Not dsc. Root. Last wish. Garden. Vow.

Ice attempted KF but never completed it. Completed vog in d1

[fresh zephyr]

Anyone looking to farm silver leaves ?

[trim grotto]

...this is a lore channel.

[torpid flint]

I’m sure the sliver leaves are for a lore book

[frigid sparrow]

leaves are related to trees
trees make paper
paper is used for books
lore is written in books

[analog torrent]

Is Felwinter more of a Void or Solar user? He taught Osiris, a famous Dawnblade, and Rasputin is associated with fire/Solar/the sun, and he used Solar when fighting Shaxx. On the other hand, he used Void with Citan, and Shaxx implied that he would’ve been using Void by default if he wasn’t scared of bringing down the castle, and did use some Void against Shaxx. Not sure if I’m forgetting any more instances of Felwinter using the Light.

[chrome fog]

Silver leaves, Tree of Silver Wings, Connection???? /j

[trim grotto]

Void, most often.

[analog torrent]

yeah I figured

[chrome fog]

He’s anything goes; he’s used shoulder charge as a warlock

[trim grotto]

He kneed someone in the face after Blinking

[chrome fog]

Same as most other Lightbearers, just that the Hunter-Warlock-Titan and Solar-Void-Arc is an aspect of gameplay as well as just what they’re each most used to and comfortable using

[tawdry wigeon]

Hey i have a quick lore question since i dont know much about the lore, what do we know about navota??

[dim minnow]

she is just the strongest Hive in the Cosmodrome at that time

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh only that?

I thought she would have some lore tbh

[dim minnow]

yeah, there isn't much since she was just made for the New Light story

the strike we fight her in used to be in D1

back then, instead of her, it was Omnigul, the Will of Crota

Omnigul is the general of Crota's armies and also likely his mate

and when Bungie brought the Omnigul strike back in D2Y4, they changed the strike's story and replaced her with Navota

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohhh why did they change it? Cuz crotas story is over? If so why do we see someone related to crota in the start of the moon campaign?

[smoky rose]

Eris?

[dim minnow]

Shadowkeep right?

[smoky rose]

Or hashladun

I assume the latter

[dim minnow]

Hashladun is one of Crota's daughters

[rich veldt]

to give new lights a story that makes sense.

[dim minnow]

the Nightmare of Crota is a manifestation of fear and trauma that Crota brought onto Guardians as a whole

[smoky rose]

Because omnigul already died and they were making a new new light thing

Shaw han was not a thing in D1

[dim minnow]

would of been nice if Bungie gave Devil's Lair and Fallen SABER reprised stories rather than exact copy

[smoky rose]

So rather than retcon it they made a new story with Shaun, Maeve, whoever the other one was, and Navota

[tawdry wigeon]

I see i see alright

[rich veldt]

isnt the 3rd Cas?

[tawdry wigeon]

What about savathuns sisters? Did we kill them at some point i don't remember. i do remember them being three in total tho

Hive is so confusing man

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath and Oryx were her sisters (Oryx is now brother but used to be sister)

[fresh zephyr]

Are the faction vendors still alive?

[dim minnow]

Lakshmi is dead

Arach Jalaal is most likely still alive

Hideo is unknown, might be alive

[tawdry wigeon]

Xivu arath and oryx are both in d1?

[smoky rose]

Oryx was

Xivu arath is still a main villain in the story today

[dim minnow]

intro mission of this season is legit the first time we heard her voice

[smoky rose]

It’s not too bad once you have a base understanding of the upper echelon tbh

The three sisters went and made a pact with the worm gods

[dim minnow]

in terms of Savathun's family tree:
We killed Oryx and Crota in D1

[smoky rose]

(Brother and nephew respectively, relative to savathun)

[dim minnow]

then we killed at least 4 of Xivu Arath's children, 2 of Crota's children (the other 2 killed by Osiris), and Savathun's only known daughter

[smoky rose]

You know as much as I hate to use destinypedia

You might find this useful @tawdry wigeon

[dim minnow]

oh right, forgot about Oryx's other children

and forgot about Savathun's other children

Xivu Arath is the only person on that list who we have not killed yet

Voshyr and Kinox were both killed by Osiris

and everyone else plus three more children of Xivu Arath were killed by us directly

[smoky rose]

Alak Hul and Dul Incaru are weird cases but we’ve killed them at least once

[real ingot]

Alak-Hul was twice

Once in TTK

second in WQ

[dim minnow]

Alak-Hul was a foster son though

[smoky rose]

Alak Hul is now a lightbearer and his ghost dips so we canonically keep killing him

[dim minnow]

I want to summon him to fight alongside us

maybe next season

[smoky rose]

Dul Incaru is a major part of the time loop so we canonically keep killing her

[tawdry wigeon]

Alright everything is clear now

Tbw alak is a lightbearer?

[smoky rose]

Yes

Boss in the lightblade strike

@dim minnow I should doodle a family tree for the major hive at some point

[tawdry wigeon]

I dont exactly remember but its okay

[smoky rose]

In The Witch Queen

He wasn’t when we killed him onboard Oryx’s dreadnought

[dim minnow]

maybe do one for Clovis' family tree

[smoky rose]

I did

With google drawings

Lemme go find it

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohhh okokok

[smoky rose]

@dim minnow

Actually since LF doesn't include Alton or Willa I should update it to presumed dead for both

That's better

[tawdry wigeon]

Does anyone remember the huge taken shield boss from an edz strike? Is that someone important?

[smoky rose]

Lake of Shadows?

[tawdry wigeon]

Yeaa

[dim minnow]

just some higher ranking Red Legion guy who got Taken

strike bosses in D2 tend to not get as much lore

[tawdry wigeon]

Ahh oof unfortunate

[smoky rose]

@dim minnow I'm really gonna hate this aren't I

Absolute nightmare incoming

I think I'm going to have oryx start going sideways so I can fit the tree in

[tawdry wigeon]

And these are?

[smoky rose]

Hive tree

Just for the upper part

Xi Ro, Sathona, and Aurash are the three sisters before they became hive

Auryx is Oryx, before Oryx became Oryx, the Taken King

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh oh oh yeyeyeye

Oh i just remembered, the guy we fought in old mars before when it was a full planet location, who was he? The strike had to do with the worm gods and it was way underground

I remember lore from that strike but i never read it

[real ingot]

Xol or Nokris?

[smoky rose]

Alright I think I got everyone @dim minnow

Need to do arrows

Going to do some color coding too but I just lost internet

Yo Dova wasn’t balwur on Oryx’s side

@dim minnow

Alright I think that's it

Oh fuck Voshyr and Kinox both had children

Oh fuck that no one cares about random yellow bar wizards

[smoky rose]

I added them but I'm not gonna post it again unless yall want it

[rich veldt]

hm

[smoky rose]

Actually would Voshir, Kinox, and their children be classified as aligned with Xivu due to participating in that ritual where Osiris killed them all

I'm doing that and then going to bed

If any of you have suggested changes ping me with them and Ill get to them in the morning

[trim grotto]

I can save you some effort here Discus

[smoky rose]

You already got one?

I assume someone’s done it

Felt like doing it myself

[smoky rose]

(Much better too)

[trim grotto]

Headquarters, Hive Genealogist, has made this

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TfPQr3REeuI_Yny6PaRw1wp5OeLVBKVU?usp=drive_link

As an example, here's the Blood of Oryx

[smoky rose]

You know what

I thought mine was messy

[trim grotto]

No way around it really

[smoky rose]

Yeah

Without going really really wide

Especially if you are trying to include every single major and not just a lineage

Well Alak-hul’s wife is one I forgor so I’ll put that in tomorrow

Oh and oryx’s wife and two other kids because of course there are

[grand jungle]

is cruible in lore like place where guardian justmessing around

[smoky rose]

Training for guardians

Live fire

And is basically a sport

[little vector]

Is vex milk edible?

[solid egret]

It gives the guardain important vitamins and minerals

[little vector]

I thought I’d be shocking or something

[solid egret]

Unless you want the r rated way

[little vector]

But drifter said he’d rather drink vex milk in one of his lines

[little vector]

What?

[solid egret]

Well you see
Hive are just like vaporeon
Imma leave it at that

[little vector]

All I know about hive is they have a chiton skin or something

[solid egret]

I don't care
I want to see nimbus die

[little vector]

And that’s an eeveelution

[little vector]

Why

[solid egret]

Everyone wants nimbus dead

[little vector]

Man I’m just confused on why nimbus and the other cloud people look like giants compared to the smaller rooms fairly guardian sized

And the spray painted wall

Are those all dead ones

[velvet flax]

Cus of the set of modifications they have using the Quicksilver nanites

And yes

[little vector]

Oof

Wait so they can get smaller if they wanted ?

[velvet flax]

I guess they could become smaller Cloudstriders but I don't imagine as a Cloudstrider they can shrink at will

[trim grotto]

Chemically, the Vex milk is an alkaline solution of dense salts in water. The salts range from sodium and calcium to lead and even (in barely detectable amounts) plutonium. Not good to drink.

Even if it were not poor for you to consume by material, it'll also aggressively begin turning your flesh into Vex.

Radiolaria is deadly in many different forms.

[trim grotto]

Neomuni are regular Humans. There are only ever two Cloudstriders, they're not the standard by which architecture is designed.

[little vector]

Oh nice

[real ingot]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/test-no-142-radiolarian-fluid-ingestion#book-bray-lab-records-confidential

[little vector]

Ty

[devout nimbus]

Damn

Quite useful

[grand jungle]

This true ?

[trim grotto]

Not quite.

He didn't kill Xita, he captured Xita and made a deal with her.

He didn't use Pyramid tech to split the planet's sun, he inverted a paracausal mechanism.

[grand jungle]

Oh ?

[trim grotto]

You literally see Xita alive during the Vow of the Disciple Raid

So that was pretty easily verifiable in game, let alone by lore

[grand jungle]

Ah thxs for letting me know

[empty fern]

Oh

He did make the hive?

I need to harass him with lament for all those arc wizards

[ember storm]

well the witness told him to do it

and all he did was basically get the worm gods to go along with the plan since they'd benefit from it too

[trim grotto]

Sort of. He convinced the Worm Gods to help make them who they are now, at the behest of the Witness. And Rhulk supplied the Hive with the Parasite Worms by carving pieces from Xita's body and giving them life.

[empty fern]

Ah

[ember storm]

the witness basically just felt it'd be nicer to have a race of death-fanatical darkness worshippers than to just "lose" another civilization to the traveler

[dawn escarp]

I think there are some interesting implications that the Guardian(s) obtain strand upon encountering the veil, but the Witness and its forces never gained said power.

Almost like the Veil is saying "Only you and your kind are worthy!"

[smoky rose]

Ehhhh

Yes and no

The whole concept of strand is counter to the thought process of the Witness and it's predecessors

[dawn escarp]

It may be, I was thinking more along the lines that the Witness and Veil are both darkness aligned. There is also speculation in the lore that the Veil is sentient and reached out via Strand. If true than the Veil chose us over the Witness.

[rigid flower]

Actually he said "The Uppended" and everything died.

[slim elk]

Does raise question why never extended it to the locals. Osiris can use Strand with no ghost

[heady mantle]

Is rhulk like the strongest disciple? Because holy shit he seems to have done SO much

[slim elk]

He was the First Disciple

[heady mantle]

Right

He kicks ass

[slim elk]

And now he's nothing but a Tree lol

[heady mantle]

Trhulk

[slim elk]

We just haven't seen enough of the Disciples to make a clear call

[little gorge]

the fact that disciples just turn into trees is the funniest and most insignificant part of their lore tbh

[slim elk]

Still isn't even explained either. It just.. happens

[little gorge]

also the darkness is shaped by consciousness

the power made by the witness' consciousness is stasis

[chrome fog]

It turns you into Vex

[chrome fog]

Yet there is no language to suggest that the Veil was reaching out to us, similarly to how the Veil never directly communicated with the Witness species, they simply studied it to discover Darkness

The point of Beyond Light, Witch Queen, and Lightfall is that there is no moral component to Light and Darkness, all Darkness we had encountered prior to this portion of the narrative had been corrupted by Witness who was pushing their will through it

Darkness is the mental, metaphysical aspect of paracausality, Light is the physical aspect

[empty fern]

Yin yang?

[chrome fog]

Osiris elaborates on this after the Lightfall campaign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_BZUrfnZC0

[chrome fog]

Dova and I have gone into how there is a very thin line between Light and Darkness save for Light requiring an understanding of properties of physics and Darkness being dependent on the mental state of the user

[empty fern]

So probably

[chrome fog]

Not to mention overlap between the two regarding the user's will, with stronger will and discipline usually resulting in greater power

Light subclasses have little effects on mental fortitudes, but it's not as great as with the Darkness elements

[sour galleon]

What happened to the pyramid on titan? The one on mars is still there.

[pearl storm]

So, was just thinking. We know the traveller and the veil were seperated right? What if they're both parts of the same thing?

The traveller being the body, and the veil being the mind

[ember storm]

i doubt it

considering the traveler literally has thoughts

[pearl storm]

Wasn't that alpha lupi?

I doubt I'm right too, but they've retconned things newer than that

(not talking about unveiling)

[ember storm]

the speakers literally existed

and also yknow

the traveler literally directly speaking to rhulk

[pearl storm]

Ah yeah true

Still interesting that Ahsa said that they started as one

[little vector]

But if I’m guardian I’ll just kms and get revived as a human

[ember storm]

it’s not that simple

[tawdry mauve]

yall wonder if that cloudark prototype chair will actually serve some kind of purpose for us

maybe to commune directly with the veil

[chrome fog]

Ahsa does mention that the Traveler/Gardener is inextricably connected to the Veil

[chrome fog]

You do that before it majorly converts your body; do it too late and you’re Vex forever. Also don’t let your Ghost get into the stuff or your only way to Rez is now gone

[chrome fog]

What. What chair, where?

[tawdry mauve]

when we enter the veil containement area

to fight calus

we see a big matrix-esque chair

and ghost or nimbus comment that its a supposed cloudark prototype, its also mentioned somewhere in the logs i think

[trim grotto]

Perhaps it sank. Became Xivu's little temple we find.

[tawdry mauve]

dont we go into the titan one during the wicked implement mission?

[trim grotto]

That's what I'm suggesting.

[tawdry mauve]

you worded it too hard for me

i dont know what "temple" means

[tawdry wigeon]

Hey whats siva? I didnt play at the time it was in game if someone could tell me the year it was in game it would be awesome but yea if someone can explain what it is it would be amazing

[wheat lava]

Long or short version?

[tawdry wigeon]

Long if you want ofc

Im here for anything

[smoky rose]

Nanotech

Builds anything

From the golden age

Was the focus of the Rise of Iron DLC for destiny 1 but that requires a bit more backstory

So

We need to start in the Golden Age

[smoky rose]

Rasputin created an AI Exo called Siddhartha Golem so he could learn about humanity in-person during the golden age
Said golem died in the Collapse and was ressurected by a Ghost and was named Felwinter
Rasputin detected Felwinter's reactivation and tried to kill him repeatedly. Warsats, heavy combat frames, you name it.
Felwinter learned about SIVA and had access to Warmind systems due to being a part of Rasputin at one point
He began researching SIVA and trying to find out where he could get it, because it would allow Humanity to rebuild very quickly
He joined the Iron Lords and eventually found out about Site 6, a SIVA replication chamber in the Cosmodrome
He led the Iron Lords there, all 100andwhatever of them. It was a trap. Rasputin had baited in Felwinter to kill him, all of the other Iron Lords were collateral damage. The only survivors were Lord Saladin and Lady Efrideet.
Site 6 was later discovered by the Fallen, who gave SIVA a simple command which caused it to run absolutely wild, hence the Devil Splicers.
The Guardian was sent to destroy Site 6 and stop the Devil Splicers, which we did. Final battle was against SIVA inhabiting the bodies of some of the dead Iron Lords.

That's the short of the long

It's very popular in a large part of the Destiny community because it has a fucking cool aesthetic

[tawdry wigeon]

I love it. Rasputin is a menace lmao

But it looks amazing as hell

[tawdry mauve]

although narratively siva is effectively done

[smoky rose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqDfiXhByo

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh its dead?

"dead"

[smoky rose]

We completely destroyed the only known Replication Chamber

[tawdry wigeon]

Only known?

So theres more probably unknown?

[smoky rose]

maybe, who knows

[tawdry mauve]

well pretty much, but bungie said they were toying with the idea of bringing it back but decided against it in the end

[smoky rose]

But there's no good way to tie it back into the narrative

[tawdry mauve]

so even if it still exists in the lore its not coming back narratively

[smoky rose]

^

[tawdry wigeon]

Yes true it's super cool tho i wish i could replay it

[tawdry mauve]

thats why you see a lot of memes about "siva cope"

[smoky rose]

There's a chance that the raid from Rise of Iron, Wrath of the Machine, comes back though

So you may get to play that

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea siva cope exactly

Or something else i cant mention here

Its not allowed

But yea siva cope

[tawdry mauve]

altough the only reason rise of iron/siva exists is that bungie needed to pad out destiny 1 for one more year till destiny 2 released

[smoky rose]

But I wouldn't hedge my bets on Bungie bringing back a whole enemy race

[tawdry mauve]

i dont think rise of iron was ever planned from the start

[smoky rose]

I think its easier for them to rework Crota's End

[tawdry mauve]

and i think its exactly why bungie is not keen on bringing siva back naratively

[tawdry wigeon]

So siva was just nanotech or something way bigger like a virus as some say?

[tawdry mauve]

its nanotech

[smoky rose]

It could do literally anything

So virus yes

[tawdry mauve]

we do have a different "variant" of it on neomuna rn

called quicksilver

which isnt siva

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh okay i see sounds so cool

[smoky rose]

Cyborgs yes

[tawdry mauve]

but was based on it

quicksilver is basically the only narative remnant of siva

[smoky rose]

Entire city on Neptune, also yes

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh right about quicksilver and neomuna

So

[smoky rose]

Quicksilver is SIVA + vex tech basically

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea true

Ishtar etc

Yeyeye

[smoky rose]

All Exodus Ships had a store of SIVA onboard to facilitate new colony development

So in theory there's some somewhere on Nessus too

[tawdry wigeon]

Nessus? Ffs why did i start playing so damn late

[tawdry mauve]

i mean

nessus is in the game still 🙃

[tawdry wigeon]

No i mean the story

[smoky rose]

There was no SIVA stuff in that story

Do not worry

[tawdry wigeon]

When I started playing i was scanning the astronauts

[smoky rose]

Nothing to miss there

[tawdry mauve]

its all lore tabs and cards

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh oh okokok good

Still for me wherever vex are involved is just pure happiness

I started a bit before mercury was gone

So vex were running rampant there

[tawdry mauve]

mercury is still technically in the game :p

[tawdry wigeon]

No? Huh?

[tawdry mauve]

yep

the lighthouse

[tawdry wigeon]

I do theorize that it will be back in a future season like titan

[tawdry wigeon]

Wait..

I forgot where that is

[tawdry mauve]

mercury :)

[tawdry wigeon]

PvP map

Ye

[tawdry mauve]

not the pvp map

lighthouse is a "social space"

[tawdry wigeon]

No way i missed this place

[ember storm]

saint directly mentions it in game

it's a simulation

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh we cant go there

[ember storm]

go flawless in trials

[tawdry wigeon]

It exists

[tawdry wigeon]

Well 😂

[ember storm]

the actual location is on mercury

so, no

we just have the next best thing

[tawdry mauve]

close enough yeah

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh alright i got mad confused

[ember storm]

imagine getting a flawless trials card and your reward is a temporary usage vr headset

[tawdry mauve]

well

all of crucible is already a simulation

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea

D2 is massive lore wise

[ember storm]

?

[tawdry wigeon]

And i love it

[tawdry mauve]

is this not the case

[ember storm]

no?

[tawdry mauve]

i thought the crucible switched to simulations

[ember storm]

they're all live fire exercises

[ember storm]

why would that be the case

the entire point of crucible is to hone your skills

[tawdry mauve]

i thought it was the cannonical explanation for use of vaulted maps

idk where i heard it

[ember storm]

the only reason it's effective is because there's no holds barred

[ember storm]

no

[tawdry mauve]

i must have heard it somewhere in passing

[ember storm]

not everything has a canonical explanation

[tawdry mauve]

and i guess it just stuck with me

[tawdry wigeon]

Okok i got another question. First of all is theorizing about future subclasses based on lore considered leaks? There was a leak recently but im not talking about that just theories about what could exist

[tawdry mauve]

any talk about leaks is against the rules

even stuff that mention them by proxy

[tawdry wigeon]

Damn

I was actually curious

Its ight

[smoky rose]

Now personally I think there will be a third darkness subclass, idk if it's in the Final Shape, but this game runs on rules of 3, no way bungie is leaving us on 2

[tawdry wigeon]

Same here

[ember storm]

we need a third eliksni race

[tawdry wigeon]

Before anything i would love to see it

We have 3 versions of every race?

[smoky rose]

I don't want one

[ember storm]

no

that's the joke i'm making

[smoky rose]

I think bungie does campaigns best when there is no subclass involved and strand and stasis need a lot of love

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh oop

[ember storm]

eliksni are the only one with two to their name

might as well make it three while we're here

fuck it bring back the devil splicers

make everyone happy

[tawdry wigeon]

Pls yes

[real ingot]

[smoky rose]

I'd prefer if there wasn't a third darkness subclass but bungie can't let 5 subclasses slide, that's probably illegal and would get you fired lel

[ember storm]

i just think it's a little weird they went back on the light/dark swapping for subclasses

and just put all of them on the same thing now

[tawdry wigeon]

True and tbh strand in the story was done correct. Everyone hates it but i loved it. Plus this dlc is filler for final shape only part 1

[ember storm]

it's just arbitary and stupid to have to go back and bring the switching back

[tawdry wigeon]

Wdym?

Keep them separated?

Like before?

[ember storm]

there was zero reason to change it

because if they do make a 3rd subclass it's going to have to go back anyway

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea true it won't fit

Oh well

I have a question

Did bungie mention anything for after final shape?

[smoky rose]

Not what's coming but we know destiny doesn't end

[ember storm]

"beyond" is what was listed

[tawdry wigeon]

Wait

MORE DESTINY

YES

That will be amazing if more comes but eh idk what else could come after final shape

[real ingot]

Vex

[tawdry wigeon]

What they'll drag the fight with the witness to another dlc? Idk

[tawdry wigeon]

Omg

Yes pls

I beg

[ember storm]

they said final shape is the end of the saga

meaning stuff unrelated to the witness would be after

[tawdry wigeon]

Hmm

So vex cuz or new threats in other planets outside of sol

Ohhhhhh

Theory mode activated

[tawdry mauve]

not counting the witness the vex are effectively the biggest problem we face

they are effectively unstoppable

but they litterally dont care

our system is but 1 of trillions

and they eventually plan for all of them to become vex

[tawdry wigeon]

So they are the biggest power after the witness/traveler?

That we know of

[real ingot]

well

weird situation

they can't predict paracausality

anything causal they win against

[smoky rose]

They can't predict light or dark basically

[real ingot]

rendering them useless against us most of the time

[smoky rose]

It took millions of years but they figured out how to suppress Saint-14's individual frequency of light in the infinite forest

And he still killed that vex

With his bare hands

[real ingot]

Keep in mind the Vex still have very rare aces up their sleeves to varying degrees

Atheon and the Vault could remove things from the timeline

however this was only inside the Vault

[tawdry wigeon]

Hmmmmm i see

[smoky rose]

And it was powered by a source of darkness

Albeit the Vex didn't understand it

[tawdry wigeon]

Why cant they predict paracausality tho?

[smoky rose]

You can predict how a sun forms

If a warlock spawns a sun in his hand

[real ingot]

Cause A = Effect B

[smoky rose]

That's slightly different

[smoky rose]

This

[real ingot]

imagine I throw a bowling ball into a gutter

logic dictates that's a gutter ball

[smoky rose]

@tawdry wigeon
Normally
Cause A -> Effect A
With paracausality
Cause A -> Effect A, B, C, or D depending on how the guardian wants to use it

[real ingot]

however what the the ball jumps out from the gutter and goes through the roof and lands in the middle of every pin

that's paracausal

[green cobalt]

ok so when are we gonna get the first canonical case of a guardian squeezing someone else's ghost to death from purely instinct

[ember storm]

pretty sure shayura got real close

[smoky rose]

That was right before she went a little bit stir crazy

[tawdry wigeon]

Okay got it we are unpredictable completely especially now that we have 5 powers

[real ingot]

we'd be unpredictable with 1

[ember storm]

each power in itself has basically infinite possibilities

vex can't do anything about it

[real ingot]

If I can snap my fingers and a gravity displacements starts I can't be predicted

because you can't fucking predict that

[tawdry wigeon]

True we have so many diff nades melees ults just by one power so its clear now

[ember storm]

it's like expecting toddlers to understand the political system

[tawdry wigeon]

Yeap

How were they created?

The vex

[real ingot]

well

[tawdry wigeon]

Its just a robot with milk

[real ingot]

the best idea we have

[ember storm]

not quite

[real ingot]

is that they came from the original garden

[smoky rose]

The Vex are literally "with the powers of our single braincells combined, we can do stuff"

[ember storm]

the vex are the milk itself, specifically a collection of biological cells inside the milk

just imagine the vex to be giant bacteria

the metal shells are just what they've used to adapt to the state of the universe

they need more solid forms to move and interact in

[tawdry wigeon]

So the vex are the milk and the metal is their structure

[smoky rose]

They are amoebae suspended in the radiolaria, who's collective brainpower is put solely into turning everything into vex

[ember storm]

yes and no

the metal is still "vex"

it can and will infect on contact

[tawdry wigeon]

Like human skin hmm

[ember storm]

like, if your organic arm touches radiolaria, it becomes a vex arm

it doesn't just melt into more milk

[real ingot]

therefore we can't make vex cheese

[tawdry wigeon]

Okay yea I got it

[green cobalt]

uninstalling

[ember storm]

it's an alkaline solution with lots of salt

[tawdry wigeon]

Aww

[ember storm]

even if it weren't vex, drinking it would just kill you

[real ingot]

Clovis tested that

[tawdry wigeon]

So they are biological and not mechanical

So they have no creator

Or creators

[real ingot]

Best understanding is that Vex are Vex

[ember storm]

bascally, humans have nervous systems, where you have sets of connected organs

vex don't have that

they just have "vex slurry" as their insides

[tawdry wigeon]

Mhm yea

Weird mfs but cool asf

[real ingot]

For origins

Unveiling the best we have atm

[green cobalt]

wait so for exos, they have radiolaria in em right? is the "vex" part of it just not working or is there something done to it

[ember storm]

the entire point is that clovis used darkness to sterilize it

[green cobalt]

ah

[ember storm]

all that's left is an empty fluid capable of housing consciousnesses

that fluid was called alkahest, and it's what he used clarity for

[shadow warren]

Do we know how that process works

[dim minnow]

the Radiolaria + Clarity solution is actually a reductive pattern

[green cobalt]

clarity being darkness?

[shadow warren]

Using darkness to sterilize radiolaria

[tawdry wigeon]

By sterilising it

[ember storm]

it's what he called it

[dim minnow]

Clarity essentially reduced Radiolaria to its simplest form which is a reductive pattern (ties into Unveiling as well)

[ember storm]

y'know, the big pyramid statue in the DSC

[green cobalt]

yeah, in clarity control

cool name ngl

[tawdry wigeon]

Yall have seen the teaser for August 22?

[smoky rose]

The one with cayde

?

From like 2 months ago?

[tawdry wigeon]

So Cayde-7 is back baby anddddd we are probably inside the traveler right?

[ember storm]

i'm hungry

[smoky rose]

Cayde-6

Not 7

[tawdry wigeon]

Yea i just saw it lol

[ember storm]

not how the exo numbers work

[tawdry wigeon]

Really?

[ember storm]

exo guardians don't even properly use the numbers

[smoky rose]

Inside the traveler? Maybe. The portal is described by Jisu Calerondo as a wormhole

So it can go anywhere

[tawdry wigeon]

Isn't the recreation of the dead one the next number

[ember storm]

i do not trust the man

[tawdry wigeon]

It was beautiful either way

[ember storm]

only through actual exo procedure

whatever the fuck is going on with cayde isn't procedure

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohhhh

So he is still Cayde-6

[ember storm]

plus he's already a guardian

[tawdry wigeon]

I missed this man

[ember storm]

if you want to be technical, no exo guardian is really that person to begin with

[tawdry wigeon]

Wdym that person

[ember storm]

all the "Exo-#" died as they were

you know how Crow is a different person to Uldren?

that's not unique, every single guardian is like that

exos aren't exceptions

ghosts are just able to read what the exo's "proper" name is within their code, so they just tell them that's what their name is

[tawdry wigeon]

Ohhhhhh

Makes sense now

Bruh ik so little about the game its annoying

[outer dragon]

Einstein-Rosen Bridge is the exact words he used but yes that is wormhole

[chrome fog]

Would like to chime in on this very old question: it was nanotech developed specifically for colony construction and to be used on the Exodus colony ships. Quicksilver or whatever the nanotech the Cloud Striders use is a derivative of said nanotech that is much more advanced, which basically puts SIVA in the grave because we just have better SIVA in the form of Cloud Strider tech

I’m so tired, sorry just give me a minute to catch up

Man, where’s Mars when someone’s curious about the Vex

[exotic cloak]

@chrome fog Can you give me a short version of why the traveler is not bad? I'm trying to explain it but I don't know as much about the Lore as you

[chrome fog]

So even by those who oppose her ideals, the Traveler is described as overly caring for diversity and cooperation, to the point that she actively sought to change the course of the universe by introducing Paracausality

In Unveiling, even if it’s the Witness’ biased view, the Traveler/Gardener always laments the domination of the Vex over all other species in existence

[slim elk]

There is an irony there...
Humanity has received more diversity and cooperation with alien allies as the travelers "influence" wanes

[chrome fog]

Shush, literally shut up

The Traveler helped a Coalition of alien species in the same solar system, and they failed against Oryx and the Hive

She has given many civilizations means to fight back against the Hive and the Pyramid forces, though they have never fully repelled any attack; and she flees from them to draw the forces of Darkness away, as much as it pains her (there’s an entry of her saying as such but I’m tired and sleepy and also might’ve inhaled some grill cleaner fumes from closing Night Shift)

If you call her cruel for leaving other civilizations once it turned out that they would not succeed against the Hive and the Pyramid forces, blame her for the destruction of those hunting her down, you are blaming a victim for their assailant’s actions

[slim elk]

And theres the irony. If your referring to the Ecumene then Inspiral says they were utilizing Darkness to help "bridge the gap" between various species
And the other race that at present has the "backing" of the Traveler {Lucent Hive]... is the one faction that is actively hostile despite every reason to assist Humanity

[chrome fog]

Sick and tired of this “maybe she’s neglectful and not a good being”, she’s trying her fucking best with some nihilistic bag of fuckheads that want to kill the universe/have the universe kill itself

[chrome fog]

I’m going to stop reading your messages I have blocked, literally shut up about this fucking shit I’m pissed off about tying the Light and Darkness to moralistic components when we have dedicated expansions highlighting why this isn’t fucking so, for a community that complains about retconning and the use of metaphors it sure doesn’t fucking know how to get overall messages Bungie wants to illicit through various individuals

Like GOD FUCKING DAMN, MAYBE THE FACT HOPE AND TRUST WERE WRITTEN AS IF IN OPPOSITION OF UNVEILING IF YOU REFUSED THE WITNESS’ OFFER IN ARRIVALS MEANS SOMETHING

MAYBE THERES SOMETHING TO BE SAID ABOUT HOW WE FIGHT AGAINST CONSPIRATORIAL FORCES THAT PLOT AND SCHEME BECAUSE OF THEIR DISTRUST OF OTHERS WITH OUR COOPERATION AND FAITH

GET YOUR FUCKING EDGY NIHILISTIC “nothing is every righteous or good, it’s all in self-interest” BULLSHIT OUT OF YOUR FUCKING HEAD, THE GAME LITERALLY HAS US FIGHTING AGAINST A SENTIENT MASS SUICIDE

WAKE THE FUCK UP AND MAYBE READ BETWEEN THE LINES

[dim minnow]

remember to separate Light and Dark from Traveler and Witness

just because the Ecumene follow the Deep does not mean they follow the Witness

[real ingot]

As was said years ago

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/v-expectation#book-purpose
The interesting part is that in-verse there is discussion of the travelers motives as of late
As Ikora even here speculates it came to "ask humanity for help" instead of uplifting for own sefless means
And aye, I know. Just interested in the irony of it

[real ingot]

Light and Dark are tools to used by the wielder

[chrome fog]

No damn wonder Freak got kicked from the Ishtar server

[slim elk]

Humanity has more allies then it ever has, but its also wielding tools once described as heresy and "taboo"

[dim minnow]

I'd argue that Dreams of Alpha Lupi is the best way to get the Traveler's motives down

[real ingot]

That's not related to the powers we gained

We allied the Cabal because of a singular interest

Mithrax joined us when Quria began the endless night

Neomuna with or without Strand would've relied on us

none of anything relates to it

the influence of the Gardener hasn't increased or decreased either

hasn't changed until LF

[slim elk]

Where I disagree. As Witch Queen and subsequent events have made very clear that "faith" in the Travaler has been waning
Just see Witch Queen cutscene where Zavala is ranting about it reviving Savathun

[chrome fog]

Maybe it’s because we learned that

THERE IS NO MORALISTIC COMPONENT TO WIELDING THE LIGHT OR THE DARK

LIKE WHAT OSIRIS - AND BUNGIE - MADE CLEAR AT THE END OF LIGHTFALL

[dim minnow]

the moralistic part is about the Traveler and Witness

which are separate from our powers

[chrome fog]

https://youtu.be/6_BZUrfnZC0

[dim minnow]

only relation to it is that the Traveler gave us our Light powers while letting us do whatever we want with them and the Witness giving us Stasis but we decide to do good with them instead of serving it

[real ingot]

tools to be shaped by the wielder

[slim elk]

Kinda hoping the big question will be answered next season.
What made the Traveler finally unleash the ghosts for humanity?

[real ingot]

already answered

it was tired of running

stay and fight

[dim minnow]

it made a wager

[real ingot]

it made the wager

we were the last chance

[slim elk]

A wager with what though? The Witness?

[real ingot]

Savathun paved the way and the Gardener took to it

[chrome fog]

[real ingot]

metaphor
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"when we speak of gene maps and gene mapping, we use a cartographic metaphor"

[slim elk]

Unveiling has been made suspect regarding the whole Winnower by it being the Witness propoganda.

And we know Savathun had an unclear role in saving the Traveler in the Collapse

Theres missing pieces to the puzzle

[real ingot]

we have the idea

[chrome fog]

I’m gonna leave for a bit because I’m going to pop a vessel

[real ingot]

she killed Nezarec and stopped the link

cursed his remains

gave us time

[slim elk]

Yep, so is that the "Wager" made manifest?

[real ingot]

depends what you see the wager as representing

lies can have truth in them

such can be the opposite

[slim elk]

And thats the question. The basic underlying principles we had for it have been undermined

We know now the Pyramid ships we been seeing were built by a species using the Light

[real ingot]

tools

tools to be shaped

the Gardener did not give guidance

The first species moved forward with their own ideas

[slim elk]

And thats another question.
Did the gardeners "opposite" in the "Winnower" give guidance through the Veil?
Something clearly messed with Mayas head after exposure to it

Theres missing pieces to the puzzle here as i said before. I doubt the answer is just as simple as "Traveler got tired of running" as previously thought

[We do know it still is willing to run away per Elsies tesitmony in Dark Future]

[real ingot]

I don't think you can use the Dark Future as a reliable source

[slim elk]

And Unveiling has been declared as unreliable now as well.. so what can be used as reliable? heh

[real ingot]

not an alternative timeline we avoided that we don't understand in the slightest

Black Heart is gone

Dark Future is avoided

everyone from that time

does not matter

[slim elk]

Like said, just viewing the "wager" as doubtful now as the main source we had on its details... was Unveiling

[real ingot]

Unveiling still has more reliability

Dark Future hasn't happened

Unveiling has a possibility

[slim elk]

Devils in the details, gotta figure how much was propoganda

Called it early on there was a conspiracy behind Neomunas government.. and sure enough.. its been confirmed someone buried a lot of info and changed the records

[real ingot]

except Neomuna conspiracy is very different from government just hiding shit

they're incompetent

Esi herself likely hid her own logs

[slim elk]

Mayas the question. The latest log confirms Cloudark basis was her handiwork.. and her behavior is.. suspect at bare mimimum

[real ingot]

basis

we know they've upgraded since then

[slim elk]

Would you trust anything derived from her work?

[real ingot]

Keep in mind we can find the old Cloudark in the containment

[exotic cloak]

Nah didn't work but thanks

They are comparing the creation of the witness with the hive

[chrome fog]

Consider the Wager is that by putting faith in the Guardians and Lightbearers, the entirety of the universe will be saved from the Witness’ enforcement of its honestly shitty ideals unto reality, which can manifest as either literally erasing everything or making everything follow the Sword Logic

[real ingot]

also keep in mind the Cloudark hasn't combined the Neomuni into one yet

they're still very independent

[chrome fog]

Mmm, mael and Dova could help

Also, what the fuck does Neomuna have to do with if the Gardener is a good being or not?

[slim elk]

Keyword is "yet" there
Still no idea how Lakshmi ended up on Earth
And per Exo naming coventions.. never was rebooted

[real ingot]

I'm also still hoping Jisu is Nezarec

it makes perfect sense

they have no reason to do it

[chrome fog]

I’m hoping we can shut the fuck up about Neomuna conspiracy theories

[real ingot]

but please

Bungi

[real ingot]

I give 0 shits about Neomuna conspiracy because they're done to death and boring

But the god of pain turning himself into a reporter is just

perfect

[chrome fog]

Exactly my point, what’s the fucking deal with trying to whip up a barely functioning theory of malevolent government when the government in question barely fucking operates properly