📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

Rhulk literally ends the lore tab by saying out loud that the Traveler won’t allow light to be taken

that’s the extent of the lore tab

Ghaul simply funneling light into a backpack is like the hive on Titan just funneling it into crystals

[chrome fog]

Instead of Light Harvested, the major difference is the belief in one being worthy of the Light

[ember storm]

it’s just not the same as actually stealing light and being able to use it

[chrome fog]

Aka trying to form that direct connection to the Traveler’s Light and draw from it themselves

[little vector]

Why is the drifter so mysterious like what’s he been up to the whole time

[chrome fog]

A bunch

I recommend reading his page on Ishtar

[ember storm]

centuries upon centuries of being traumatized, mostly

[little vector]

Does he not do anything unless he is being benefited

[ember storm]

it’s where his whole schtick of “I just wanna survive” comes from

but in recent years he’s actually been really opening up to helping people just for the sake of it

whenever he tells you he’s just planning on leaving when things go south, he’s lying

if it was true he’d have been gone years ago

[little vector]

Does he control the primeval in gambit?

[safe galleon]

so like, did it do that with all the other ghosts rhulk tortured, too

did rhulk keep doing the equivalent of walking into rakes

like going to torture a ghost and just having it explode in his face every single time

in a charlie-brown-esque exercise in futility

[ember storm]

that was the only one he found

and he literally only got the chance because it literally wandered up directly to his pyramid

[safe galleon]

his dialogue refers to ghosts, plural

[ember storm]

also something I don’t really see mentioned is that Rhulk actively captured the ghost and held it in his palm while taking it apart piece by piece while it was asking to be let go

“Oh he was planning on being a risen” no he wasn’t

[safe galleon]

"did you happen to see the dead ghosts on your way in? oh, what fun we had together" is along the lines of the dialogue in his fight

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/collective-obligation

pile of dead ghosts within Pyramid

[ember storm]

you know I’ve never even done vow

is it worth it at this point

there’s like what, a solid stasis gl?

[safe galleon]

• the best non-elemental smg in the game
• second best stasis fusion rifle in the game
• best waveframe in the game, no contest
• best lfr in the game, also no contest (so far)

also a uh

pretty good pulse, i think

and a really neat exotic too

[safe galleon]

just imagining rhulk falling for the ghost flashbang trick every time without fail

[ember storm]

I mean Rhulk has a moment where he recognizes that the Traveler detonating the ghost was so he wouldn’t even be able to check out the remains

I can only assume he enlisted some scorn to go hunt a few hive Lightbearers so he’d get a look

at some marginally bigger pieces, anyway

either that or he just did it for the sake of it because that’s just who he is

[slim elk]

But yeah
That one ghost clearly wasnt the only ghost that Rhulk managed to grab

[ember storm]

collective obligation doesn’t even sound like he’s trying to get at the light anymore

[slim elk]

Heck. End of the lore tab waltz is quoting from has Rhulk order another one

[ember storm]

he’s literally just talking to a bunch of dismembered corpses

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/imperious-sun-shell

R: Poach another curious fruit from the witch's collection. They cannot, as a race, all deny our worth.

[frigid sparrow]

so, the vex could theoretically use the veil to simulate paracausality do to how it functions similarly to them?

[real ingot]

possibly

we aren't sure what they would've attempted

but things would've gone haywire if they got the Veil

[chrome fog]

Not really; they cannot simulate Paracausality at all, the Black Heart was more a gift given to them by the Witness

Which it itself is a failed copy of the Veil

They can run simulations of other beings worshipping paracausal artifacts and receiving paracausal energy from that, but no they cannot generate Paracausality on their own

[shadow warren]

What was the black heart fail at doing?

[real ingot]

Failed replica of the veil

Witness had the Vex grow it after it lost the actual Veil when Savathun betrayed them

[shadow warren]

Right but do we know what it was supposed to do

I could see the witness wanting one so that it could link w the traveler like it did at the end of lightfall, but why give it to the vex then

Unless the witness either knew it was botched or needed to find out somehow

[ember storm]

you know everything the veil does

[real ingot]

Not fully sure what you mean by this

[ember storm]

the black heart can’t do that

it was basically just a darkness battery

[real ingot]

Oh

Yeah Black heart failed in the sense it wasn’t a perfect recreation

It could however still perform feats

Such as allowing the Vault of Glass to exist

And create the dark future in the event it wasn’t destroyed

[shadow warren]

No

All I know is that it is able to link to the traveler

[ember storm]

well for starters, that

black heart can’t do that

its existence was just kind of annoying to the traveler, really

if the speaker’s words actually meant anything about how the traveler was able to recover

[smoky rose]

Veil containment this week

[shadow warren]

You make it sound like it isn’t that big a deal

It’s more than that though, right?

[smoky rose]

It’s a web of consciousness similar to the vex. The reason the vex want it is because it would allow them to simulate paracausality

[shadow warren]

I didn’t even know there was weekly dialogue

[smoky rose]

[shadow warren]

All my lore info I get from here

[smoky rose]

Well you can go in there and play all the messages back to back

[shadow warren]

And whatever byf videos I watched however long ago

[smoky rose]

Anyways this is why it’s a big deal to stop the vex from getting it

[shadow warren]

I see

[real ingot]

I absolutely love that I called the Vex simulate Paracausality with the veil back in Seraph

So happy

[smoky rose]

If the vex simulate paracausality it’s joever for the entire universe

But if we don’t stop the witness it is also joever so that takes priority atm

[real ingot]

Witness currently has the high score atm

No idea what game we are using as the scoreboard but we ball

[shadow warren]

The sole purpose of the vex is to be the final shape right

Same as the witness

[smoky rose]

Ehhhh yes and no

Sorta

See unveiling is basically the Bible of the witness

The Winnower is, to the best of our knowledge, not a real thing aside from possibly the Witness if you consider it as such

The vex may or may not have been designed to be the final shape but regardless they are so simple that they will be if not for paracausality

[shadow warren]

If the winnower may not be a real thing then what is the gardener? I’ve seen people assume the gardener is the traveler

[real ingot]

If we are to take Unveiling as the Witness rewriting their origin to make them sound cooler

They’re kinda insane

[smoky rose]

That is correct

[real ingot]

We have evidence to say the Gardener exists as the Traveler

[smoky rose]

The gardener is what the witness’ people called the traveler

[shadow warren]

Ah

[chrome fog]

Mimic the Veil as a source of Darkness, which it was mildly successful at but compared to the Veil it wasn’t as large a source

[chrome fog]

I’d argue they aren’t simulating Paracausality but rather simulating other species worshipping the Black Heart to then receive Paracausality as proxy for the Vex

[fresh zephyr]

How are abominations made?

[chrome fog]

Stitch enough Eliksni corpses together and do some weird stuff to it, then revive it with Dark Ether

Frankenstein zombie monsters that shoot lightning from their palms

[ember storm]

it's just a bloated eliksni

there's no added bits or parts

[raven glen]

Would the witness be considered omnipotent threat? Or just universal threat? Or multiversal threat wise?

[dim minnow]

that would make a great Scorn raid/dungeon boss

don't know why we never got a thresher boss yet

[ember storm]

cause threshers suck ass

[raven glen]

I want a thrall boss 🙂 that shoots explosive thralls from back:)

[ember storm]

giant screeb boss, tho

[ember storm]

that's called the ogre from wretched eye

[raven glen]

But but how about giant thrall that chases u 😅

[ember storm]

kovik's monster

that's literally what the boss is

[chrome fog]

These are the same thing said three different ways; and yes, theoretically we should already be seeing the consequences of their success rn but something’s up

[ember storm]

it's just an ogre than chases you and melees

big thrall

ogres are literally thrall anyway

[chrome fog]

Mutant thrall

[raven glen]

Then we shall have um umm taniks with ghost 😀

[chrome fog]

Which I guess Abominations are the same but an Eliksni corpse and Dark Ether

[ember storm]

vex fanatics are just damaged goblins stuffed with excess radiolaria

[raven glen]

Makes me think how in the hell will our gaurdian get to his level bungie gotta think of something cus at this point maybe we find a way to break them apart i hope i didn’t spoil the future lmaoo by saying will break the witness apart lol cus i heard some leaks of a raid 😭

[worldly river]

I love Osiris calling back to his "Through loss, we can overcome" line with this week's Veil Containment
I thought that was such a cool line but I thought it didn't make a lot of sense at the time

[slim elk]

Well.. it's less "loss" and more reality finally breaking through

Situations a bit different as well
Osiris went obsessive over his own free will
Mayas heavily implied to have been "corrupted" by Veil exposure

[little gorge]

well not really

she probably saw what the witness did

and considered it to be right

[worldly river]

Yeah the context is different but I still think it helps give an idea why Osiris spoke of it like that specifically

"Loss" on the surface means two difference things in those contexts, one being loss of control while one means loss of a battle and loved one, but in the context of obsession, especially when Stasis, a power linked to heavily with obsessive control, is tied directly into Clovis's story of obsession, which is deliberately reflected in Maya and brought into comparison with Osiris, in a sense it makes Osiris's "loss" double as both a loss of a battle/loved one which also caused a loss of control which resulted from the former, which feels like it informs that odd choice of wording

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it makes it seem meaningful

Which is neat

[empty fern]

Any fallen lore that’s been left behind we could use for another season? Any loose ends?

[worldly river]

Eramis is still around and torn between allegiance to the Witness and desire to see her people free

[empty fern]

Didn’t she die or something at the end of seraph?

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-season-of-the-seraph-the-witness-darkness-eramis-gif-27560452

[worldly river]

No lol

[empty fern]

Ah

[worldly river]

She was in Defiance, she saved Mithrax from the explosion that killed Amanda

[empty fern]

Ohh yea

I forgot abiut that cutscene

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-season-of-defiance-amanda-holliday-shipwright-gif-1657078308884676909

Yea

So did Amanda like, know she would die there?

[worldly river]

House Dusk is also still out there, they've taken a backseat since House Salvation came around but given they are an amalgam of the various other now defunct Houses you could pull literally anything out of that

[empty fern]

Wasn’t their coloring green? Was variks part of dusk at some point?

[worldly river]

No Variks is the last remaining member of House Judgement

[empty fern]

Ah

[worldly river]

House Dusk was yellow and purple

[empty fern]

What happened to the rest? Died to devils?

[empty fern]

So that’s what the cosmodrome fallen are now?

[worldly river]

Yeh

They're the faction we fought pretty much exclusively between Red War and Beyond Light

[empty fern]

I see

[worldly river]

Save for the brief excursion into Saint's past where we fought House Rain

[empty fern]

House rain during Saint? Was this during osiris or a season

[worldly river]

Judgement idk, I guess we don't know he's the last but he's the only member, apparently they splintered during the Whirlwind as many did and the survivors swore fealty to Mara some while back

[worldly river]

During Season of Dawn

[empty fern]

Ah

You think tangled shore could make a return? Like we forgot about the scorn and they further developed their own culture then last time we checked

[worldly river]

They were attacking Saint while he was holding out in a bubble when we showed up

[empty fern]

Ohh

Wait

So did house rain meet its end when the vex converted mercury?

[worldly river]

[empty fern]

[worldly river]

Actually sounds like Saint wiped em out

[sick yew]

Sounds like a Saint thing to do ngl

[empty fern]

Oh

[worldly river]

Yeah not sure with the Scorn, Fikrul is a huge question mark rn and I'm not sure I expect to see him return until post FS

[empty fern]

Maybe mara stuck him in a prison again

[worldly river]

The Scorn developing culture thing was a weird development, might've just been Rhulk's influence at the time, idk

[sick yew]

He apparently fled the shore around WQ release

[empty fern]

Ah damn, bungie

He fled the shore?

So a different place now?

[sick yew]

Fynch and Ikora say as much

[worldly river]

Cuz since then they've been subservient to the Witness and I doubt it's control is not absolute enough to eliminate that kind of individuality entirely

[empty fern]

Wonder what else there is to content from

We have house of dusk
Erimis
What else?
Anything from vex

[sick yew]

Shadow Legion is still around

Hive obviously

[worldly river]

Personally I don't think Fikrul would like the Witness hijacking his people and throwing them in as fodder
But I doubt he's strong enough not to either have any forces he rallies taken from him or himself be dominated the Witness's command

[empty fern]

Is witness still running that cloning factory? Thought he didn’t care enough after calus died

[sick yew]

Unknown afaik

[empty fern]

F

[worldly river]

Cabal has a fair bit with Yrix and the Psion Conclave, as well as another plotline with Otzot and the Oxa

[sick yew]

Could simply be one of the Witnesses higherups running things about the Shadow Lgion

[sick yew]

Pretty sure Otzot and Oxa have not been touched since y1

[empty fern]

Oooo wait, maybe bungie will try using him to resurrect savathun (immaru will probably refuse)

A very very temporary alliance

[sick yew]

Correct me if im wrong *

[empty fern]

Shhh let me dream

[empty fern]

The insight terminus flavor text?

Oof yea that’s been a while

[worldly river]

Pretty much lol
Some offhand mentions I believe explaining more about what Oxa is and why Otzot cares but that's it

[sick yew]

Mhm

The Nine are technically still out there but I am so glad they arent being used in the story atm

[empty fern]

They haven’t been used since drifter and prophecy right?

[sick yew]

Yup

[empty fern]

Or whenever xurs book came out

[sick yew]

Season of Arrivals was the last time they actually played any kind of role

[empty fern]

Ah damn

[worldly river]

The Vex had some hinted stuff with the intro of Abberant Vex, but we know their time to shine is planning post FS

[empty fern]

With the sky current strike?

[worldly river]

Plus if they decide Asher "survived" in some capacity

Nah

[empty fern]

Asher turned into a vex mind right? So he’ll be dealing with other hostile minds and stuff?

Also the upside down vex pool,

[worldly river]

In Avalon they have quarantined "Abberant" Vex which do not follow expected behaviour, we free one
The season prior Osiris first talked about them in a radio message to Elsie

It's unclear what exactly happened to Asher

He integrated deeper into the network but whether he still exists with any sense of self is completely in question

[empty fern]

Ah

Bungie might just use that to cut him off for good “Asher lost himself in the network and became a rogue mind”

Not rogue like sol but maybe similar

Could turn into a strike or an exotic mission

[sick yew]

Im pretty sure Ashers story has ended

It seems like they build it towards an end in season of Defiance

[empty fern]

Aw

He’s in an infinite loop of avelon

[real ingot]

Don't forget Kell's Scourge

[limpid flower]

he’s still there? i coukdve sworn he stopped appearing after the last secret chest was discovered

[sick yew]

Pretty sure hes gone

Which is what Mithrax outright says if you do the mission now

[real ingot]

yes

Asher has pretty much been erased

meaning Sloane and Anna are likely the only surviving vendors from the dissapearances

[chrome fog]

*It’s, they’re a gestalt consciousness combined from all of their civilization; and I already gave an explanation, we’re going to a place where those that go into it can change reality, so we just have to change reality to where the Witness is vulnerable

[chrome fog]

Oooo like this

[chrome fog]

I’d like to see that further developed, they were born out of Uldren’s wish for Fikrul to not die, which itself is further connected to Uldren’s underlying sympathy towards others which extended to the Eliksni despite the sentiment at the time being that they were simply our enemies with no chance of redemption. Perhaps Crow and us can help Fikrul reclaim some of that lost identity in the Scorn

[worldly river]

I wanna say we can close the book on my Strand is so easy to tap into on Neomuna but every time I try to sum it up I feel like I'm still not entirely sure

Two possibilities I see- A. The Veil is the source of the Weave, across all of existence, and the Veil being there means it's intensifies and easier to perceive- but I just struggle to believe this thing, as a supposed equal to the Traveler, would have that kinda fundamental omnipresence

B. The CloudArk essentially extends the range of the Veil's web city-wide, and again it's much more easy to perceive since the Veil is so powerful

But even the second, I wonder if the CloudArk is really extending it's range somehow, or if the Veil's web is always comprised of the nearby area somehow and the CloudArk is just built on top of that

[little gorge]

well the weave is seemingly just darkness

wouldn't be too far fetched if the veil is the source of the darkness like the traveller is the source of the light

[worldly river]

STRAND is Darkness but the Weave itself seems to just be an inherent thing in the universe that Darkness can tap into and manipulate

Not too unlike how the Light allows us to create/manipulate fire and electricity

[chrome fog]

Veil allows perception of the Weave, the Weave simply exists as a secondary layer to reality

Just vague psychic layer to everything

Strand is us using Darkness to better perceive the Weave and manipulate it

The Veil allows us to observe the Weave due to it being a large source of Darkness and therefore allowing the Weave to be perceived… or some shit

[worldly river]

Yeah and that's the part I'm trying to get straight

[chrome fog]

Weave is a separate thing from the Veil

Not necessarily a part of the Darkness but very obvious it can be manipulated - in the sense that you manipulate clay or metal into the shape you want - by the Darkness

[slim elk]

It's been confusing for a bit
The mentions of a "river" only needlessly complicates things

Personally I just joss Neomunas whole "river of souls" concept entirely. Makes no thematic sense and they have demonstrated complete ignorance on everything else..

Perfect sense they fail at the themes behind it as well

[chrome fog]

The river is a metaphor- how is figurative language this confusing

[slim elk]

Simple. The Metaphor fails when see all other descriptions and thematic aspects tied to it
Weave, Strand, Thread, Connections

Where's the "current" in all of that? Makes much more sense as a "Web"

[ember storm]

the river was just used as a way to realize how to use strand, wasn’t it?

literally just go with the flow instead of trying to grab it by the reigns

[slim elk]

Even the "conductor and orchestra" lately in the Veil logs have the direct implication can direct the process
Which goes against the "go with the flow" lol

[ember storm]

as someone who hasn’t heard the veil logs, here’s my take

[slim elk]

But yeah. River metaphor fails at pretty much every level

Would be decent hint early on that Nimbus and Neomuna had no idea what they are talking on

[ember storm]

can you elaborate on what this means

[slim elk]

Simple
A conductor directs the orchestra... and it's instructions into a desired shape. Usually a song with its crescendo and other parts

The river Metaphor Nimbus tried to use fails because it means there is no way to direct the flow

[ember storm]

I was more asking for the specific context of it

who said it and why and what they’re talking about

[slim elk]

Ah
Simple
Maya=Lakshmi-2

[ember storm]

because that metaphor on its own is incredibly flimsy and can apply to almost anything

[ember storm]

so, an egotistical golden age scientist who suddenly has paracausal power fall into their lap and expects to be able to do whatever they want with it without any consequence?

totally a reliable stance on the matter

definitely hasn’t happened before either

[slim elk]

Incorrect
It appears that Maya was corrupted by the Veil exposure

Her own wife (yes Esi and Maya were married) has said she doesn't recognize Maya anymore

[ember storm]

yeah I’m not really keen on accepting whatever the fuck Maya has to say about it when it’s a defining trait of strand that you need to literally go with the flow to master it

[slim elk]

Then how about Strand itself? 😉
Threadlings, Weave, connections..

[ember storm]

how does Maya going darkness brand crazy mean great understanding over strand?

[ember storm]

I’m literally just quoting Osiris’ numerous explanations of it

he says word for word that using strand to create or unravel requires you to relinquish control

that’s just what it’s like

you remember back during the campaign whenever we tried forcing strand into what we wanted we’d literally just die

[slim elk]

Specifically, not sure where even the "River metaphor" came from if Neomuna had no idea what Strand even was despite sitting on the Veil for centuries

[ember storm]

because it’s a separate thing?

that was plainly established during the campaign

[slim elk]

Yet the Veil be the source of Strand no?

[ember storm]

it’s just a cultural thing that Osiris realized you could apply to strand

[slim elk]

Pretty much what it boils down to me
I disagree about the "flow" part..
As "Guardians make their own fate"

[ember storm]

I don’t really see your point

strand isn’t a fate to be overridden

it’s just a thing we need

[slim elk]

Simple
Where does the "flow" end?

[ember storm]

guardians are quite notorious for having brute force be the exact opposite of where their success comes from

[slim elk]

A river feeds into something larger. In using darkness terms the "Deep"

(Ocean perhaps)

[ember storm]

the point of “guardians make their own fate” is how we continually find new ways to defy whatever problem’s coming at us

how we adapt

getting new gear, new power, new allies, new perspectives

they all make up the concept

on their own it’s not really prevalent

[ember storm]

I feel like you’re missing the point of what a metaphor is

it’s not literally applicable

it’s not an actual river so it doesn’t feed into other actual water sources

[slim elk]

Just got the inking it's similar to the Witness beliefs in a "Final Shape"
Obviously the Final Shape is not entirely literal.. but everything must "flow" to that ultimate conclusion

[empty fern]

It just helps with understanding concept

Or that

[ember storm]

it’s really not complicated

unless I missed some big huge thing, the river is only mentioned during the campaign as some neomuna cultural thing

[slim elk]

Like said
Understand the whole ideal of Strand better as a "Web of Life" rather then "River of Souls"

[ember storm]

because the concept isn’t directly related to strand

it was just a new perspective Osiris hadn’t considered when we were having trouble utilizing strand

strand as a concept is utilizing the web tying everything together

[empty fern]

Oh yea

Waltz

[ember storm]

we were just stuck attempting to utilize said web, so different logic needed to be applied

[empty fern]

Go check the new archive on neomuna already

[ember storm]

no

[empty fern]

Yes

Do it

[ember storm]

why

[empty fern]

Because I’m curious

[ember storm]

is your name george

[empty fern]

Yea

[ember storm]

are you a monkey without a tail who’s still called a monkey despite clearly being some kind of ape

is curious part of your title

[empty fern]

Almost

[ember storm]

then I want nothing to do with this

[empty fern]

Damn you

[slim elk]

Huh
Why hostility towards learning about the truth behind the Veil and Neomunas history?

The method absolutely sucks and should have been in main campaign true. But it's definitely useful

[ember storm]

to clarify me calling someone “curious george” isn’t hostility

[oblique imp]

It uhh, doesn't seem that way

Tone though text and all that

[empty fern]

Waltz is just naturally a little annoyed when they type

Oh hey Catgrins back

[ember storm]

they should get rid of again

it’d be funny

[ember storm]

but also suggesting somebody play destiny 2 is the greatest dishonor you could ever bestow

I expect a full 3 page apology essay on my inbox by tomorrow

double sided

[empty fern]

Eugh

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-gauntlet-ill-do-it-myself-marvel-villain-gif-16087834

After I get this last wastelander pattern tho

[ember storm]

get a god roll matador while you’re at it

[empty fern]

Fine fine

[chrome fog]

Literally, it is just to emphasize how Strand involves letting go and going with the flow

And all the points Nexus and Waltz made, it is a metaphor that is used to segue into Strand requiring one to Let Go

Seriously, figurative language

It’s a whole unit in English class

[exotic cloak]

I don't know much about it but there is a reason why the Ghosts didn't abandon the evil guardians

Warlords and that people

I mean Fynch refused to resurrect his guardian

[smoky rose]

Some of them did

Some of them were just bad ghosts

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[smoky rose]

Some believed they could "fix" their guardian

[chrome fog]

Where would Gilgamesh and Katabasis fit on that spectrum of Guardian-Ghost relations?

Was the ghost bad or the guardian bad? Were they both down on their luck or was it a one-sided control over the relationship?

[smoky rose]

Gilly just lost his fucking marbles

Like Katabasis just asked him to leave him dead until help arrivedd

And gilly was just like "fuck you" and kept rezzing him

Ordering Katabasis to kill him

so yeah

[chrome fog]

Man

Thas rough

[hollow crag]

Why are the psions in PsiOps battlegrounds so huge?

Are they the same as the normal psions we encounter in battle or a different species?

[wind belfry]

Psions get bigger through a ritual that fuses a bunch into one big psion

It's a process called "joining"

[bold moat]

Is it just me or does the siren of riven at the start of last wish sound like a different character every week? Last week it sounded like Mara, this week Crow, and I've heard it sound like zavala and ikora before. Am I hallucinating?

[green cobalt]

yeah it does that

[empty fern]

Sometimes even failsafe

[exotic cloak]

What happens with Taniks? There is this Easter egg where if you die with the fire of... His cyberpunk wellchair, he laughs

But we literally cut off his head

[slim elk]

along comes a ghost...

[exotic cloak]

Oh fuck not again

[slim elk]

Admit it though
If any Fallen Guardians will exist.. he's gonna be the first

Just for the meme

[exotic cloak]

Well it would be great although I would also like to have Atraks, exo fallen guardian

[slim elk]

I said the first. Not only lol

[exotic cloak]

Yeah I know

[chrome fog]

There’s Eramis, Misraaks, and Eido as fitting first Eliksni Guardians as well

[grand jungle]

Who’s geppetto?

[chrome fog]

Saint’s ghost

[tawdry mauve]

litterally no

[tawdry mauve]

ghost of saint 14

and a good pal

[ember storm]

because it's not an easter egg

i can only assume his corpse is still an active entity, and he's just programmed to laugh when he kills you

so dying by the corpse just triggers the laugh

[chrome fog]

Also it’s Taniks, he’s been brought back by technology at least twice before now

He’s sort of the Nokris of the Fallen war bands

[shadow warren]

Scorn taniks 🙏

[chrome fog]

Scorn then Risen Taniks

Unless Taken before Risen

[shadow warren]

That made me think of something

Can a guardian get taken? And if they can, could their ghost still resurrect them?

I’d be surprised if anybody has an answer to that

Well ig the first part of the question was answered by this season’s story but what about the second part

[chrome fog]

Naturally the Light allows them to be more resistant to being Taken, but it is dependent on the will of the individual; Sloane was able to hold out for a while but then required Ahsa’s help to withstand the Taking process, which is why she appears as such

There’s also the fact that she is staying partially Taken for the advantage of listening in on Xivu’s plans and… stuff

[shadow warren]

I see

Thx for the explanation

I assume that’s an idk to the second half then

[chrome fog]

Probably still can be ressurected, Sloane’s ghost is still alive

If the physical form is disinterested before it’s Taken in a Guardian’s death, maybe they can recover the body

It’s a limbo between a tic damage ailment and being slowly assimilated into a Vex

Leaning closer to the latter

In fact, had Asher’s ghost not been corrupted by the Radiolaria - as in assimilated, not corrupted in another sense - he probably could’ve just let his physical body get assimilated and then Rez

But Taking is also a paracausal process, which might affect the inner Light of a Guardian and therefore affect their ability to get rezzed by their ghost

[exotic cloak]

Taken guardian would be an interesting threat

We have faced guardians or something similar besides the Lightbearers of the lucid hive (In-game)?

[chrome fog]

We’ve dealt with rogue guardians, either by force or subterfuge

Lemme search that word quick give me a minute

Ok yea I got it right

Warlords: the Iron Lords tactically wiped them out with both methods, either killed them and threatened their ghost, crushed their ghosts (in the early days before the Iron Lords formalized their bylaws), or reaching an agreement with the Warlord - such as with Shaxx

Shadows of Yor: mainly the latter, as Shin, Drifter, and that one Praxic Order/Hidden agent dug into them and they all got spooked

[exotic cloak]

I mean we've had enemies like that in-game?

I already knew about the Warlords, it was if we had previously seen something similar or even guardians as an enemy in gameplay

Apart from the Lightbearers

[chrome fog]

At best, a Taken Guardian would be the same as a Lightbearer Hive with more zoomies and a smaller hitbox

To an extent we embody the Sword Logic in our constant improvement, so there’s no real “Perfect” form of ourselves

Only difference is how we utilize our power, which is in the defense of others

[exotic cloak]

I just like that idea cause I want more Lightbearers

[chrome fog]

Mmm, fair

That begs the question, imagine bots in this game

How complicated they’d have to be programmed

[outer dragon]

Im confused by this statement
Sure the Guardian has used Sword Logic to their advantage but I recall something about Bomb Logic being more what the Guardian embodied

[real ingot]

Bomb logic is a joke

In the eyes of sword logic we are perfect

[chrome fog]

They have not because we do not outright end others’ existence to prove we deserve to live more than they do
A Vital element of the Sword Logic is that you kill those less deserving to exist than you, which is the opposite of pro texting others who cannot protect themselves

We would be perfect embodiments of the Sword Logic would our goals align that way, but then we would have no support, no ghost, no nobody nor anything

Hell, even if we’re powerful on our own, we still depend on the support of others, whether is gathering intelligence, coming to our aid, organizing us and others towards a shared goal, or giving us improvements to our armor and weapons

Mara more so theorized us following a Bomb Logic, to better emphasize how different our motivations are compared to our enemies despite their acknowledgement of our strength

A theoretical opposite to the Sword Logic to better explain what we are doing/what not to do lest we fall to the same mentality of our enemies

[torpid flint]

I’m sure you could make a good bot, but it would probably be a one time raid boss

[unreal tulip]

When/how did the veil end on neomuna? Ik it has something to do w savathun

[real ingot]

how did it get there?

Savathun brought it there

stole it after she killed Nezarec

[slim elk]

We dont have a why yet she chose Neptune. But things are never cut and dry with Savathun.. especially as the Ishtar guys managed to land there as well

[unreal tulip]

How/why did she interact w nezarec? Was it for the veil? As in did she knew he had it

[real ingot]

Nezarec had the veil and was approaching the Traveler

Savathun was present in the system at the time

likely with Nezarec

If Nezarec succeeded the Witness would win

so she betrayed Nezarec

killed him

cursed his remains

[slim elk]

It was mentioned back in Witch Queen that Savathun "saved the traveler"
Again:No exact details, but implications are her curbstomping Nezarec and seemingly framing the guy is part of it

[unreal tulip]

Was her plan to always "snake the witness"? Or did something happen at a later point

[real ingot]

Not always

likely that she learnt the Witness' plan and was against it

waited till she could intervene

atm details are hazy

likely we'll learn more next season

[unreal tulip]

Just to be clear, the witness plan is to destroy the traveler?

[real ingot]

Rewrite the universe

or simply

[slim elk]

Nope
Seemingly hijack its power

[real ingot]

destroy it

the universe

existence

to it life is meaningless

the solution:

destruction

[unreal tulip]

Do others that align w the witness know it's full plan? I'm just curious cause a villains often desire is power and control itself, rather then straight up destroying everything lol

[real ingot]

The Disciples seem to understand the end goal

Calus wished to be the last being in the universe as it ended

[unreal tulip]

Interesting, thank you

[real ingot]

The Hive have a different interpretation but the idea is the same

[limpid flower]

so if we're the last city

what is this

[real ingot]

Where is this?

And remember

[limpid flower]

in the tower

[real ingot]

settlements exist

[real ingot]

then it's the city

[limpid flower]

thats a big tower

[real ingot]

defence

Six towers

[limpid flower]

oh so we're just all mingling in our biorder and that s the city

[real ingot]

The battle of Six fronts

[slim elk]

Clarification: We never were the "Last City". We just assumed they were

[real ingot]

more symbolic thing

[slim elk]

Neomuna has been around since the Collapse

[real ingot]

the last stand

[slim elk]

Timelines always been a bit of a mess with no hard dates

But recent stuff lorewise is complicating it with Lakshmi-2

[wise dove]

Does anyone here think that if all powers of darkness or anything against guardians in general could take down that light order if they all strike us at once? Including all of the raid bosses and hive gods from the past and future.. Could our guardian take them down lore based? All a theory but I would like to see a response?

[smoky rose]

@unreal tulip @real ingot @slim elk Its not specified what it's ideal universe is, in fact, it is specified that the Disciples do NOT have a good understanding of what the final shape is. Right now what is known is that it pirated the Universal Source Code and is now going full hackerman on it and rewriting it to it's will

[little gorge]

is it even explicitly said that that's what the portal does?

or is that just an assumption from the fact it wants to "carve away the chaos of reality" and also the akhasic records stuff

[real ingot]

Thanks Discus

[smoky rose]

That’s what they tried to do with traveler + veil before the traveler punched out

[little gorge]

again I'm pretty sure it's not explicitly stated that's done by rewriting reality

it probably is

but it's more implied

[smoky rose]

https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?t=145

"there they could reshape reality itself"

[empty fern]

And then

The veil just

[limpid flower]

they wanna rewrite reality to remove chaos basically

[empty fern]

Waltzed out of there?

[limpid flower]

traveller

[smoky rose]

Witness hauled it around with them

[empty fern]

Ohh

[smoky rose]

Basically just towing the keys to the castle while chasing the castle

Eventually Nezarec was the one in charge of the veil

[empty fern]

And W left it on Neptune then neomuna developed?

[smoky rose]

Then Savathun killed Nezarec and stole it

[empty fern]

Oh

[smoky rose]

And then left it on neptune

[empty fern]

Ah ok

Also

How do you feel about lakshmi being brought back into the story for a short bit

Making a copy of herself from the veil and stuff

[trim grotto]

The Maya is Lakshmi theory has existed since D1
Validation abounds for many people

[empty fern]

Ohhh

Wait

Oh yea I never touched into that

[slim elk]

Its defintely raising some interesting questions on the timeline of events

Lakshimi was on Neomuna long enough for entire gen of kids to be born [IE: Multiple months]

Yet she was also claiming that she was present when London was burned by the Fallen Devils

[trim grotto]

That's not a hard stretch
That is the span of a single year out of the centuries of the Dark Age

[slim elk]

Aye. It is the closest thing to hard dates we are getting though

[ember storm]

greetings

[empty fern]

No

Go back to sleep

[empty fern]

Who is that again?

The clone raid boss in deep stone? Yea

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-papa-roland-exile-spin-sparrow-gif-27633709

Yea female I think

Probably proven in Erimis’s log on the prison of elders

[trim grotto]

She is female, yes.

[jolly vector]

Bruh it took them 7 fucking months but they finally explain the veil ingame

Better late than never I guess

[empty fern]

Kek

Drip lore go brrrr

[exotic cloak]

Eramis and all her gang are

[wind belfry]

girl power 💪

[trim grotto]

Not all. Praksis isn't.

[exotic cloak]

The Spanish ES translation was weird, many times they refer to Praksis with her and he has a female voice

[trim grotto]

Really? Odd. Anyway, regardless, Praxis is intended to be male.

[exotic cloak]

Spanish MX at least has a nice voice

[chrome fog]

Last City on Earth

[chrome fog]

We’re inferring based on the information related to the portal and what appears to happen in both that Akashic Revelation ship’s lore tab as well as the Final Shape teaser

An educated guess using what knowledge we have at current

[chrome fog]

Consider: she was formed from a similar process that created the Witness, could it not be the memories and experiences of one or many members that were conglomerated into her being?

[chrome fog]

Damn almost like there was a fucking

Restructuring of the company after their acquisition by Sony and straining themselves through the Pandemic years to provide pretty great expansions, who knows maybe they’re just lazy because there’s noooo way outside factors affecting game development in aaaaany way

[jolly vector]

they are lazy as fuck dont kid yourself

[chrome fog]

And I assume you know how to work in game development

[jolly vector]

Im a consumer dumbass

[chrome fog]

Or taken into account what they were doing

[chrome fog]

Then be informed

[jolly vector]

if its bad its just bad

[chrome fog]

[jolly vector]

idk why Im even arguing with a mf that turned on caps

[chrome fog]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/689677141012381726/1121471819828961280/image0.jpg

[exotic cloak]

You know, they just could postpone the release date

I understand the reasons why a product may have a mediocre quality, Shadowkeep after Activision and Lightfall in middle of SONY acquisition

But, the product is still bad

[ember storm]

ah yes because everybody wants the dlc to be delayed by months for the third time in a row

[exotic cloak]

Ok so you prefer a mediocre dlc than a delay

[ember storm]

i'm just saying literally any move bungie would've made would've been met with criticism

[exotic cloak]

They keep selling the product, despite its quality

[ember storm]

there is zero scenario where they do anything and everyone is happy

[exotic cloak]

Welcome to the business world

[ember storm]

the story was medicore and you're acting like it's the end of the world

lightfall is a fucking great dlc

[exotic cloak]

if you think so

[chrome fog]

Yeah, the business world where the consumer complains no matter what

And fucking again
#📚lore-discussion message

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/689677141012381726/1121471819828961280/image0.jpg

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jul 20, 2023, 12:10 PM

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Embed Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jul 20, 2023, 12:10 PM

[exotic cloak]

I know, there will always be a bunch of people complaining no matter what, I just prefer to wait until there is a good product

[chrome fog]

Then that’s fair and understandable

Sorry, but it’s just. Grating with how many people bring up Lightfall’s lackluster campaign narrative when Bungie told us directly that they were aware of that issue

[exotic cloak]

I know, but you know, it's not just paying for the DLC but paying extra for seasons to find out what's going on

Bungie is not indie company, I don't see how difficult it would be to lower the prices

[ember storm]

i just don't find good reason in complaining about the veil logs

that comes free with just owning LF

they knew the narrative was undercooked and are actually trying to rectify it

that's more effort than what's ever gone in to this kind of thing before

the only thing like it was the taken king spring updare and that was just a new strike and stuff

[chrome fog]

And considering this is in a development scene where Blizzard just. Fucks off with the original plans of their sequel and just puts the same dumb PVE content with none of the promised features. I’d say Bungie’s doing their best to make up for where they know they’re lacking

Anyways, that’s enough that discussion for now - someone will flare it up again unfortunately - and we should turn discussion back to the actual lore instead of just complaints of how long it takes

[exotic cloak]

🫡

I was curious we know officially if we will see more unconventional guardians?

[chrome fog]

They took years to even reveal Nezarec, for us to confront Savathun, for a great many things to pay off

[exotic cloak]

New Hive Lightbearers, or Fallen Guardians?

[chrome fog]

At best we have Shin and Eris presently, both being Lightless and utilizing odd empowerments - Shin with theoretically his gun before he gave the Last Word to us and Eris with Hive magicks and Stasis

Ah, Well

[exotic cloak]

I'm not saying no but my problem is again that they continue to sell the products, wait for the good while getting products that are mediocre or not as good as they can be

Lightfall still cost 50 and 100 euros here, more than WQ at the time

[chrome fog]

Eliksni guardians have been something many people wished for since at least Plunder, seeing how they became out allies in a time of need

[torpid flint]

Mind you, the savathun build up was good

[chrome fog]

Nezarec was too kinda, but we dealt with the newly made Scorn and Pyramid Shenanigans with remnant Hive on the Moon before getting even bigger hints on Savathun’s intervention into the main narrative, and even then we never knew Osiris was actually Savathun, we just assumed he was grieving from Sagira’s passing

Point being: they have long plays for a number of lore points

It’s one of the major appeals of the game, that Bungie is able to integrate their major lore building so deeply into the game itself

[torpid flint]

Yes, they’ll even switch up the meaning of old lore from time to time

Ex: Unveiling

[chrome fog]

Well, we’ve argued the validity of Unveiling since it’s reveal due to the nature of it coming from the Witness’ own perspective

It’s that very fact that made it very difficult to determine if the Witness and the Winnower were or weren’t the same being

But we had no other alternative explanation to the beginning of Destiny’s universe until now and some points in the book being confirmed by other pieces of lore, so we just accepted what the Witness said

But certainly the meaning of Unveiling has changed now that we have more information of that time

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.destinypedia.com/Keksis,_the_Betrayed

According to destinypedia, Keksis is the only taken thats grimore card is conveyed in the first person

thats kinda cool ngl

[ember storm]

i mean, all of the taken enemy unit grimoires are kind of from the pov of one of said units as they're taken

[unreal tulip]

Y don't more learn hive magic as eris morn did? Is it too hard in a sense that it's not worth? Cause I think eris learned it to save herself when trapped or something right?

[trim grotto]

Eris Morn learned it over the centuries she was trapped in the Hellmouth, with the help of Toland the Shattered's journal, and after an Ahamkara Wish stole her eyes and she replaced them with that of an Acolyte.

To paraphrase Boromir, one does not simply learn Hive Magic.

[ember storm]

i think it actually just removed her eyes entirely

she had to manually take the acolyte's herself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikCtrwWadGw&ab_channel=DestinyLoreVault

[trim grotto]

Yes that's what I was trying to say

It is a bit vague but that seems to be how it went down

[ember storm]

it's more on-brand for an ahamkara to just make you blind after you ask for the way out of somewhere

[unreal tulip]

Who is toland then? Like, ik the little orb but that's it really

[trim grotto]

Alright let me hit you with some lore

A few centuries ago, the Great Disaster occured. This was a multi-hundred strong Guardian assault on the Moon against the Hive forces of Crota. It failed horribly, leading to hundreds of Guardian deaths, including the death of the Titan Wei Ning.

Shaxx, for the record, said the whole thing was a terrible idea.

Eriana-3, a Praxic Warlock, was Wei Ning's partner. Eriana survived, and was utterly distraught and incredibly rage-driven. She began to gather a fireteam.

Eriana-3 gathered Eris Morn (who then still had her Light, a Bladedancer (old Arc subclass from D1)), Omar Agah (A Hunter), Vell Tarlow (A Titan), Sai Mota (A Hunter), and Toland, the Shattered. Toland was a Warlock who was once exiled from the Last City due to his heretical beliefs and obsession with the Hive.

So, Eriana-3 and her Fireteam delve into the depths of the Hellmouth in an attempt to destroy Crota as revenge for the Great Disaster, and more specifically, Wei Ning.
Alas, slowly and one by one, each member of the Fireteam was picked off. Vell and Sai died, Omar had his soul torn out and became the bug we see within Xenophage. Eriana died at the entrance to Crota's Throne World, Eris lost her Light (poor Brya, her Ghost), and Toland...

Toland abandoned the fireteam in their moment of need to seek out a Deathsinger of the Hive, intending to "ascend" to another form of existence. And so he did, successfully. He aimed to become the wisp we now know him as, able to sail the Sea of Screams at will and whimsy, able to flit from realm to realm and learn all he desires about his beloved Sword Logic and the secrets of the Ascendant Plane.

get lore'd

[leaden ginkgo]

Thank you sir

[trim grotto]

On that topic, his Ghost, Guren, was actually entirely supportive of this act, even though it resulted in their death.

PARTIES: One [1]. One [1] Ghost-type, designate Guren [g]
ASSOCIATIONS: Deathsinger; Guren [self]; Toland [AKA Toland, the Shattered]; Traveler
//AUDIO PRESERVED//
//TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS…/

[g:01] This is the final transmission of Guren, Ghost of Toland whom you call the Shattered. He goes to hear the song of death.
[g:02] Nothing will deter him. None of you can stop him. Not anymore.
[g:03] Toland will hear the Deathsinger's melody. He will redefine death, escape the Traveler's blunt samsara.
[g:04] He will sound the depths of the powers you so myopically fear.
[g:05] My only regret is that I will not live to see his triumph.```

[leaden ginkgo]

BETRAYAL- HALO VOICE

[unreal tulip]

So the person rage driven died at the start of the raid?

[ember storm]

wasn't even a raid

they just went into the moon and died

[torpid flint]

I wish we had a way to kill Toland. He’d finally shut up

[mystic fern]

Isn’t toland like a tiny traveler

Or something

I barely remember him from shafowkeep

[trim grotto]

What?

[mystic fern]

He’s was like that mini floating traveler thing wasn’t he

[trim grotto]

He's... a wisp. Like what starts a Deep Dive pressure trial. Or what you follow in Prophesy.

[chrome fog]

Not like the Traveler in any other aspect aside from being a white ball

[mystic fern]

Ok and does anyone know the lore behind cayde haunting Ikora in the teaser

[mystic fern]

Oh okay

Wait a minute

[trim grotto]

Not exactly haunting, but no. We just have the trailer to go off of.

[mystic fern]

Can a Ghost revive another broken Ghost

[chrome fog]

He did that back in Haunted; judging from the teaser, this is supposed to give a hint of what’s the reality past the portal

[trim grotto]

No.

[chrome fog]

No, otherwise Sagira and many other ghosts would be ressurected

[mystic fern]

Oh I haven’t played lightfall and thought it was something connected to that

[mystic fern]

Well cayde’s was killed under special conditions wasn’t it

Like a special gun or bullet from one of the baron’s or something

[trim grotto]

Well, yes, but even so.

[chrome fog]

A number of ghosts have been killed by our enemies, it was an issue especially during the Collapse and subsequent Dark Ages

Fallen skiff blades have been noted to slice ghosts in half

[trim grotto]

Strictly speaking the Ghosts were created at the ending point of the Collapse

[mystic fern]

Why were they created in a way that’s so flimsy

[chrome fog]

Mmm, thanks, how long the Collapse lasted is difficult

[mystic fern]

Why did it have to be Ghosts and not something less fragile

[trim grotto]

They're made of metal. Those spears are just sharp.

[chrome fog]

Then it would cross into Intervention on the Traveler’s part. Which is the opposite of what she wants.

[trim grotto]

Months, explicitly.

[chrome fog]

Existence, Paracausality, it’s all to see what us mortals - aliens and humans alike - would do: work together and cooperate towards a bright future or slaughter each other in a bid to see who is strongest

[mystic fern]

Assuming Zavala is written out of the story at some point around final shape who’s likely to become the next Titan vanguard

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Whose to say the Vanguard will retain its same format? Maybe it can change, maybe it’ll stay the same

[mystic fern]

dang that’d be interesting if it changed

[ember storm]

the vanguard really only existed as it did because of the belief that each class needed a figure head to rally them

but that’s just not the case

Ikora and Zavala have been considering a change in structure since forsaken, actually

[green ridge]

I just finished Lightfall... Solo the Traveler actually died???

[smoky rose]

Erm

Idk about died

That's how its described but its not exactly dead

[green ridge]

Yeah

[smoky rose]

If it was the timeline would reset

[green ridge]

I know what you mean

It's like turned off lmao

Was kind of a short campaign I feel like, I expected the end of it to be a bit different

The way it ends gives lots of material for a possible very good next dlc

[smoky rose]

Indeed, it ends in a way that transitions very well into the seasons for this year

The problem is that just isn't a good idea

Not everyone is logging in for their weekly lore dump

[green ridge]

I don't know, I just came back to D2 and there's sooo much stuff but when I saw what Lightfall was about and the Witness I bought Lightfall so fast, I love this villain

[chrome fog]

Got her soul snatched to open a portal to wherever

[chrome fog]

Oh you’ll love this season then

[fresh zephyr]

i don't remember where but i heard somewhere that none of the vex we fight are actually meant to be soldiers and are more like scouts and builder equivalents for the vex, kinda like 40k tyranids, i just wanted to know if this was true

[chrome fog]

They have no “combat frames”, as many would like to say, they simply are powerful enough in their base form to generally overpower mortals

The times they do have any “combat frames” are usually specialized units dedicated to one task

For example, that one Vex that took Saint’s Light

[smoky rose]

No evidence for the existence of combat vex outside of a single line from Calus

[empty fern]

So vex are just, really focused on terraforming stuff that their base frames are combative

Also

Anything from champions in lore?

I think I heard them being more powered by the darkness a while ago

[chrome fog]

Nothing on champions

Not even sure they’re canon

[exotic cloak]

It is something that some believe, because of their appearance and the auras around them

But they are probably just a mechanic

[empty fern]

Augh

[outer dragon]

Champion as we known them are a game mechanic only

Im not aware of any lore that mentions champions being stunned by specific weapons/keywords

[trim grotto]

Champions exist in a single bounty text, and only offhandedly at that

Not exactly a strong foundation

[tulip knoll]

Champions if I remember correctly are not in any way canon to the lore

Or otherwise connected

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/they-were-the-champions
Welcome... to the only reference for Champions

"Champions of what? A lofty title won't protect them from you." —Commander Zavala

[raven glen]

Theories ppl what yall think lies beyond the portal of final shape since that scene we saw. Is that the peaceful looking world the witness searched for? Is it a afterlife world? So far we basically know nothing as more questions left unanswered what exactly is the traveler cus i still don’t understand the lore of lightfall lol and now we got the first final shape mini trailer i don’t understand wats the place seems like heaven to me since cayde is there maybe thats a afterlife for gaurdians with the light or maybe that isn’t our cayde☝️🤓

[chrome fog]

Do I have a link to the theory?

I don’t wanna scroll up

[raven glen]

Wait someone talked about this already lol?

[chrome fog]

Me

I did

Because this is the lore channel

I’m lazy, so this is whatcha get, but I’ve discussed it plenty of times
#📚lore-discussion message

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
I’m more of the idea it’s gonna be a weird memory world where all the old places are merged in a weird dreamland way, seeing the name of the season’s ship that shows us what happened to Joxer - Akashic Revelation

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jun 18, 2023, 6:16 PM

[chrome fog]

Just search any of my messages in this chat, you’ll probably find a couple reruns of my explanation of the theory

Tl;dr - some weird repository dimension formed completely of Light and Darkness, and whatever happens to that place affects our current reality

Evidence is descriptions of the Garden that the Gardener and Winnower supposedly came from - take with a grain of salt since it’s from Unveiling but the giant Tree of Silver Wings stump we climb up in Garden Salvation (which takes place in the Black Garden) and plenty of other sources hints at the Garden being a real places - the name of the ship you get from leveling up the sonar station, and the Final Shape teaser

[chrome fog]

Also this is Destiny, they baked theorycrafting and spinfoiling into the narrative from day 1 because Bungie loves making stories like this

[wicked wadi]

Just out of curiosity what is the strongest boss we have fought?

[trim grotto]

Kinda subjective and hard to define.

Oryx, were he not weak. Savathûn, Rhulk. Nezarec, were he not weak.

Crota, even. Couldn't even hurt him without his Throne World's messy logic system.

[chrome fog]

Most if not all our greatest enemies have caveats to our victory against them: Oryx’s tithe structure was collapsed by us and therefore he was not to his fullest potential though he was still had plenty of power to prove difficult; Savathun had immense power as the Hive God of Trickery, but as a resurrected Lightbearer she was only exceptional; Nezarec’s body had been freshly formed, so he was not as strong as he could’ve been; Rhulk never really tried until you get to the wipe mechanic; we kind of brute forced every Vex threat; the Scorn Barons and the Scorn in general are kinda just hodgepodge zombie gangs

In any case, our victories coming forth from group effort fulfills the Traveler’s wager

[smoky rose]

Akashic record

Based on the ship from this season

"the Akashic records are a compendium of all universal events, thoughts, words, emotions and intent ever to have occurred in the past, present, or future in terms of all entities and life forms, not just human."

Hence why Cayde is there

Presumably as a vendor or something but that bit is pure speculation on my part

[chrome fog]

Would be neat

[slim elk]

Cayde-6 being demoted to planetary vendor...
Ouch

[hollow zealot]

https://tenor.com/view/cayde-destinty-gif-9498187

[trim grotto]

His Vendor was arguably less useful than a planetary vendor in D2 before he died, so

[sour galleon]

how come glint didn't talk in season of the haunted/risen?

[dim minnow]

he gave you treasure maps that lead to some popular emblems

[trim grotto]

That's more of a meta reason. Only so many VAs are put onto a season.

[trim grotto]

Exactly

[dim minnow]

don't diss the emblem meta

you wouldn't understand

[trim grotto]

Planetary vendors have armour, Emblems, bounties, and had guns too

[heady mantle]

Is there a warlock that focuses on void or like experimenting with it

(I like void warlock)

[trim grotto]

There's a few, sure. Trihn is a fun one.

[dim minnow]

been a long time since we heard from her

as far as we know, she is supposed to be working for Caiatl rn

also been a bit since we heard from Gaelin-4

surprised we didn't get an update on the Praxic Titan by now as well

he's the one we hear about the most often

[smoky rose]

Personal favorite is Moss-2

Less for any particular void-related reason (though he is a voidlock) but more because his ghost, No Name, can actually completely take control over Moss' body

Including using supers

[smoky rose]

You can find his lore in the Spire of the Watcher armor sets

[sick yew]

My personal favoeite lore character? Investigator Maier of the Future War Cult

[heady mantle]

Is there any way to consult lore documents in other languages? I have a french friend that would be delighted to read lore

[hoary raptor]

does cayde 6 come back

[dense warren]

hinted at with the lf trailer but i don’t think we know what his deal is

[heady mantle]

So wait Trihn got resurrected and captured by awoken and they trapped her ghost??? I don't really understand her first entry (Wild Hunt Hood)

And wtf is the ring

[outer dragon]

Ikora
She used two Nova Bombs back to back ina crucible match

She cheats though

[trim grotto]

She was resurrected as a New Light and captured by Fallen of the Tangled Shore, and forced to fight in a fight ring. Pit fighting.

As for language translations... I believe I remember a resource for it existing, though I'll need to wait until after work to go searching for it.

[heady mantle]

Ok I read like all the trihn lore and I am now MORE confused

So she follows the pike trail and makes camp next to the eliksni then something happens and they're all dead. She notices a crack in the wall and there's a weird stone that she decides to connect herself to (literally) and then xivu arath for some reason????

[trim grotto]

This took place during Season of the Hunt, when we first began to run into Cryptoliths. Did you play Hunt or Seraph?

[heady mantle]

Ohhh right

[trim grotto]

These Cryptoliths of Xivu Arath would cloud the mind, incite rage and wrath, sometimes literally changing the physiology of those it afflicted. This created the Wrathborn, beings of rage under Xivu's influence.

It's what happened to Osiris. Why he commenced single combat against the Hidden Swarm in the shadow of the Luna Pyramid, and why Xivu was able to trap him.

[outer dragon]

She also is likely addicted to Ether

[trim grotto]

Ether is bad for you, kids

It is very potentially deadly and also very bone shattering

[ember storm]

drifter said it was cool

i trust him

[wind belfry]

drinking games with ether just hit diff

[river turret]

Are we holding ourselves back? I feel like we should be able to use our abilities more often than we are actually able to while playing

[fiery copper]

Lore cooldowns are closer to mayhem the stronger of a guardian you are

Ikora spams two nova bombs in 5 seconds in the opening mission of Red War

[ember storm]

mixture of physical and mental exhaustion

[fiery copper]

Yeah

[ember storm]

eminder that Ikora is never in constant combat

the reason she chains supers is because she's only in the field like 2 minutes every year

[fiery copper]

I'd say red war was pretty close, even if she was offscreen for most of it

OH I JUST REMEMBERED

[ember storm]

she was just there for the initial attack on the city and then went to io

also y'know

it was the red war

[fiery copper]

Isn't there a loretab where she casts a third bomb immediately after crashing the thresher?

[ember storm]

she literally couldn't use light if she wanted to

[fiery copper]

The opening mission

When we find out the speaker's tower got blown up

[ember storm]

it doesn't really matter

[fiery copper]

I think it does

[ember storm]

just a few minutes later the traveler was caged so her light was cut off

using nova bomb again right before would make zero difference

[fiery copper]

Even if she lost her light almost immediately after, she was prepared for a long battle since she had no idea what ghaul was planning

[ember storm]

every single guardian gets immediately incapacitated when the light is cut off

as in literally fall to the ground out of breath unable to stand

[fiery copper]

Her spamming nova bombs implies that she could've kept it up for longer, since she had no way of knowing that the light was going to get cut off

She was prepped for a long fight, and was still spamming novas

The fact that the fight got cut short is the part that doesn't matter, she was spamming bombs while thinking that it was going to be a long, long battle.

[ember storm]

because it was either do or die

the thought to flee only occurred because the light was lost

literally everybody who wasn't a civilian wanted to stay

[fiery copper]

Ikora is too smart to blow all her energy at the beginning of a battle

Whatever she did, she knew she could keep it up for a WHILE, because that's the direction she thought the battle would go

[ember storm]

Ikora having a higher tolerance would be the exception

[fiery copper]

Yeah

I used her as an example of Peak Spam

[ember storm]

most guardians literally haven't even properly mastered one subclass

much less having proper access to multiple

[fiery copper]

She has a literal Sigma Grindset

[ember storm]

i think osiris burnt out during his little moon escapade

basically, keeping your super up for a whole mission just isn't a good idea

[fiery copper]

New lights fresh out of the grave would have even SLOWER abilities than you do ingame imo

[ember storm]

a few minutrs, sure, go nuts

[fiery copper]

Shaw Han has to teach new lights how to make grenades

[ember storm]

but like half an hour? you're basically working yourself to death

[fiery copper]

Yeah

[ember storm]

pretty bad teaching imo

like he's the only person who uses tripmine

[fiery copper]

Apparently tripmine grenade plus the tripmine knife is pretty funny in pvp

You become that one friend who when you played 007 would only pick oddjob and just spam proximity mines to make sure he was the only one having fun FUCK YOU MARK YOU PIECE OF SHIT

[trim grotto]

not a chance

[fiery copper]

Alright hot takw

Ashen wake should be a warlock exotic and Claws of Ahamkara should be titan

[chrome fog]

Sunbracers

[fiery copper]

Different

[chrome fog]

And Titan has several exotics upgrading punch

[fiery copper]

Actually

[chrome fog]

Literally the same but better

[fiery copper]

Starfire protocol should be titan

Heresy I know

[chrome fog]

Also aspects

[fiery copper]

But imo it would work better with rally barricade than it does with empowering rift

I just wanna throw dnd fireballs as the wizard class

I said it was a hot take, therefore nobody is allowed to criticize me because I preemptively said it would be a shit opinion

[chrome fog]

Starfire for a Titan or even a Hunter is just fragments and then the grenade mod that gives class ability energy

Starfire just does it as an exotic perk so you can use the mods and fragments for other things

Because different play styles for the different classes

[fiery copper]

I just want to throw fireballs

IT'S WIZARD TIME MOTHER FUCKER

F I R E B A L L

[chrome fog]

Yeah

Sunbracers

With Touch of Flame Aspect

[fiery copper]

Dnd fireballs are you throwing a small dot of fire which flies in a straight line and then explodes with no secondary effects

[chrome fog]

The

The melee

Also why wouldn’t you want to inflict burn with your missile projectile

[fiery copper]

?

Wym

I'm just saying that ashen wake is a different vibe from sunbracers

[chrome fog]

It’s the same grenades

The improved fusion grenade of Ashen Wake you can get from the Warlock aspect

And if you wanna lob grenades just get discipline high up

[slim perch]

is the veil basically an organic vault of glass

[slim perch]

ashen wake

[fiery copper]

thats what im saying

i want to throw fireballs as the wizard class

[daring iris]

I havent really been following the veil/vex/neomuna lore too heavily but the stuff I’ve gleaned from reading a few lore entries and listening through veil containment has me nearly convinced that the Vex are the ones pulling all the strings in Destiny’s universe

[trim grotto]

Well, no. They don't understand paracausality, which is their major inherent failing and flaw.

And by don't understand, I mean they can't comprehend it properly, can't predict or simulate it.

[daring iris]

perhaps thats just the flaw of a few factions of the vex

we’ve only seen like 3 of them right

[trim grotto]

We've seen far more than three

[daring iris]

what if there’s other factions that are fully capable of understanding/modeling paracausal powers

[trim grotto]

To quote Headquarters in an earlier discussion elsewhere, we have
In terms of the ones operating in Sol, we have

• the Hezen Corrective/Protective, of the Ishtar Sink/Vault of Glass
• the Virgo Prohibition of Meridian Bay
• the Sol Divisive of the Black Garden
• the Sol Primeval of past simulations
• the Sol Imminent of future simulations
• the Aphix Invasive of the Prison of Elders (and maybe Io)
• the confederated vex collective of destiny 2

[green cobalt]

you just can't simulate something you can't possibly ever begin to understand without an outside source of the same effect

(the veil)

[daring iris]

ah nvm I thought it was only hezen, sol divisive, and then the rest were part of the regular vex collective

[trim grotto]

The best we have is Quria from the Books of Sorrow, who couldn't comprehend paracausality in its fullest until Taken and split from the Collective, or the Sol Divisive, who couldn't recreate the Veil despite having a "seed" to work from while having the blueprints and living in a realm outside of linear time

[daring iris]

idk something is suspicious as hell about the origins of the veil

“they learned about another entity among the stars, and when they (the black fleet) found it, they arrived” like who did they take it from

[green cobalt]

but we don't know anything about the veil's or the traveler's origins

[daring iris]

yeah

the traveler’s design itself also looks suspiciously similar to vex architecture to me

there’s orbs all around nessus that look insanely similar to the traveler

[trim grotto]

White and spherical?

[daring iris]

yeah with like the same asymmetric spire type architecture

[tawdry mauve]

i would say the exact opposite is the truth here

[daring iris]

how so

[tawdry mauve]

the vex are not very "spherical"

circular sure

[green cobalt]

asymmetric how it's literally a sphere

[daring iris]

like the surface of the traveler isn’t really smooth

even before it was damaged post-red war

[tawdry mauve]

gonna be honest i see 0 "traveller like" influence here

[tawdry mauve]

that doesnt make it asymmetric

it makes it bumpy

[daring iris]

I guess asymmetric wasnt the right word

yeah just roughly hewn

[tawdry mauve]

also im like 99% sure the orbs you mentioned

[daring iris]

one of the lost sectors on nessus has like white scaffoldy type orbs of vex construction in it that resemble the traveler pretty closely idk thats just what made me think of it

[tawdry mauve]

are actually on mercury

[daring iris]

nah

[tawdry mauve]

and were the eyes of savathun

[tawdry mauve]

which one is that

[daring iris]

its the lost sector on the easternmost region of nessus im pretty sure

I forget the name

[green cobalt]

the traveler does look somewhat mechanical under its white surface though

[daring iris]

yeah thats sorta what im getting at, could be vex design or just another species that builds like them

maybe they advanced and built it in the future

[trim grotto]

Architecture aside, consider that the Vex are mentally unable to even comprehend the nature of paracausality, which the Traveler inherently is.

[green cobalt]

yeah

[tawdry mauve]

i kinda dislike the "traveller was actually built by an even greater species" trope

because its stupid and kinda regressive

all its going to do is just change the questions we had to a different subject

and nothing will actually be answered

[daring iris]

yeah no I def think the traveler was built by a species already introduced into the story

[tawdry mauve]

we will just know slightly more

[tawdry mauve]

what

[daring iris]

just its a matter of time

[tawdry mauve]

what species

that was introduced into the story

rn could have built the traveller

[green cobalt]

the none of them

[tawdry mauve]

litterally

none

and im willing to bet like most things the actual origins will remain unanswered

[daring iris]

maybe

[tawdry mauve]

which is the way its should be

people are so desperate to get answers about everything in this games universe they ignore the simplicity of not knowing something

[daring iris]

idk bungie really seems like they want u to speculate on it theyre hinting at a lotta shit going on

theres definitely some post-final shape content involving the origins of the two entities

[green cobalt]

no!

[tawdry mauve]

they already said post final shape will be about the vex

i think everything major bungie wants us to know about the veil and traveller will be done during tfs

and im willing to bet it wont by any origin story for either

[daring iris]

counterargument: bumpy WHITE spheroid on nessus

opinion invalid

there was a series of a few of them in that spot I think

I cant imagine bungie would just make the traveler a 14km wide mechanical sphere and make the veil a lovecraftian creature the size of a small office building and never explain the discrepancy between the appearance of the 2

[leaden ginkgo]

Funni ball go vroom

[green cobalt]

it's not about size it's about what you do with it

[daring iris]

true

[chrome fog]

If you’re talking about the launchers and the marble-esque orbs around Nessus, I don’t think that’s necessarily indicative of anything

Just orb

No shared designs other than White and Orb

[green cobalt]

clearly the traveler is just a gigantic clam pearl

from an even gigantic-er clam

[chrome fog]

And I disagree, I think we gonna get a face-to-face talk with the Gardener about her original intentions of the universe, free from the Witness’ bias

[tawdry mauve]

this is a pretty wild take ngl

what are you basing it on doe

[daring iris]

none of this is based on anything dude we’re just drawing red string on the conspiracy corkboard

[green cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/conspiracy-theory-explaining-gif-13403485

[daring iris]

I doubt bungie even knows whats going on atp they keep retconning shits just happening

[chrome fog]

No shit, but we have information we can make inferences on, as we have since the start of Destiny

[daring iris]

in final shape I think the witness is gonna hit the thug shaker

[chrome fog]

You do not know what the word retcon means

[chrome fog]

Not much, but mostly that one lore tab where she tells herself that she has to move on from a species she helped or risk them coming under greater strife

It’s very much hopes and dreams for that to happen

[trim grotto]

They don't retcon nearly as much as people think they do.

[heady mantle]

What is retcon

[chrome fog]

Restating a previous event as something else, which is not what’s been happening in Destiny’s narrative

[daring iris]

im just joking bungie has done an amazing job at coherency considering the story has gone on for 10 years under 3 different managements and probably a zillion changes in staff

[safe galleon]

have we ever taken down a raid boss in a completely fair 1 on 1?

or have we just like, made them blow themself up/injure themself/make themself vulnerable, and then, yknow, like

[chrome fog]

Always

[velvet flax]

Maybe Val Ca'uor maybe

Caretaker we just gain the ability to actually harm it through the Resonance

Atraks is another one

[green cobalt]

Rhulk? i think that was fair

[chrome fog]

He wasn’t even trying

His wipe mechanic when you get to Final Stand is him trying

[green cobalt]

well yeah but if he was we'd have died before we ever got in the ship

[chrome fog]

In his case it’s more that he willingly handicapped himself

[green cobalt]

him clowning around was his decision, not anything we did to him

yeah

[exotic cloak]

Is there a reason why there is no different gravity on any planet? Does it have to do with something from the traveler or does our armor work like space suits?

[raw grail]

I don't recall reading anything about the Traveler messing with gravity. I think it may just be video game logic

[tawdry mauve]

the traveler terraformed everything

it included gravity

it gave everything effectively earthlike gravity in sol

[heady mantle]

This technically implies that the sun has earthlike gravity

[raw grail]

Oh I thought it only affected the surface of the planets

[tawdry mauve]

no

because it didnt teraform the sun

[heady mantle]

this game sucks :(

Let me have one fun fact

Or one irrelevant loophole

[raw grail]

If the sun had earthlike gravity, all the planets would fly away without a sun

[chrome fog]

Make it a good one

[tawdry mauve]

the sun is also not a planet

[heady mantle]

"🤓"

[tawdry mauve]

ok

[fast tapir]

lol

[raw grail]

I heard you could walk on it though

[chrome fog]

Where?

[fast tapir]

the hell?

[raw grail]

On the sun

[fast tapir]

yeah

where did you see that