📚lore-discussion

[exotic cloak]

Immaru literally floated in front of us and Eramis was crystallized by stasis on our face.

[ember storm]

we just didn't get the chance

Eramis' stasis was also completely invulnerable

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily, as Waltz said she just keeps leaving, but also she has some potential for redemption; though like many other villains Eramis will have to remember her crimes and keep that in mind forever

[slim elk]

Eramis is more an idiot situation really
Bungie had the whole side plot of Variks staying on Europa to watch over Eramis in case she broke out..

..
Hey Variks. What happened there?

[exotic cloak]

I know but don't say we didn't have a chance with Immaru he was just right there

[chrome fog]

We happened

Literally we got there as soon as possible

[ember storm]

again, we literally raise our gun to shoot before the traveler leaves

which yknow

is the biggest flashbang to exist

besides the literal big bang

[slim elk]

Nah
We were there because Spider got grabbed after Eramis started reorganizing Salvation

[ember storm]

yeah no

we literally only find out about Eramis because Drifter got us to find Spider

[slim elk]

Like I said. It's an idiot situation

[exotic cloak]

I guess it's a matter of perspective but the guardian had a glorious 5 seconds to crush Immaru

[slim elk]

Variks literally had one job and he failed epically lol

[ember storm]

more like bungie just didn’t feel like hiring dee bradley baker to do one job

[slim elk]

And even that logic fails

Guess who voiced Savathuns worm?

That one's on Bungies bad writing. Didn't even need Variks voice lines.. just a lore entry indicating Variks did sound the alarm..

[ember storm]

I mean, we just don’t know when WQ and plunder were both written

it’s entirely possible they just got plunder’s story done long after the worm’s lines were recorded

[slim elk]

That neatly falls under "bad writing" lol

[ember storm]

how so?

all Variks’ job was to keep a beachhead

[chrome fog]

In any case, Eramis is a curious case; she’s both regretful of succumbing to her need for revenge and anger, but at the same time she is sorrowful for what once was and also recognizes that she is no longer the future. It depends on the writers’ mood but those are two characterizations of her that are present yet have very little connection to each other

[ember storm]

in fact despite everyone seemingly knowing Eramis wasn’t entirely dead, nobody suggested anything about keeping an eye on her

[slim elk]

Variks main point post Beyond Light was to watch over Eramis and to warn of her return
Eramis has returned, and there's been zero acknowledgment of Variks multiple seasons after it happened

[ember storm]

after the ending of BL, you wouldn’t really expect the Witness itself to revive her, would you?

Variks has other important jobs

he’s not there to play fnaf

nothing was stated about him keeping an eye out for Eramis

literally all of his post campaign dialogue treats her like she’s dead

if you want to blame anyone, blame the vanguard

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lightkin-cloak

[ember storm]

they’re the reason he’s sitting on Europa and not getting horribly punished by the awoken

[slim elk]

Explain this entry then 😉

[ember storm]

ok, I was wrong

though if there’s anyone to get mad at, it’d be Mithrax

[slim elk]

Just saying. Dont you find it odd there's been no following up on that even after Eramis started making a mess?

[ember storm]

i just don’t really care about the fact

plunder has enough Eliksni and politics

Variks wouldn’t add anything

Variks didn’t do anything, end of story

[slim elk]

Not "just" plunder
Watches end of Seraph cutscene

[ember storm]

we can just chalk it up to it happening during his afternoon nap

he’s indeed old

[empty fern]

Ooo wait, what’s waltz wrong about?

[ember storm]

but also how is he even keeping an eye out for her?

it’s not like he can just walk back into the heart of Riis reborn

[slim elk]

Waltz denied Variks watching over Eramis in case of her breaking out was the main reason he was staying on Europa

[empty fern]

Oooo ok

[ember storm]

if you’d let me be semantical, that’s not what I said

I just said it wasn’t his main job

he was stationed there temporarily

[slim elk]

Indeed.. [X] Doubt

[ember storm]

the moment his job is done he’s being shipped off to the awoken to be dealt with

which he obviously wouldn’t want to say to Mithrax given his history with them

“I need to watch eramis” was what he said to explain not joining house light despite aligning with them

[ember storm]

job differs from personal responsibility

the vanguard officially treated Eramis as dead

the vanguard was the only thing giving Variks official duties on Europa

I don’t think “keeping an eye out for a paralyzed Kell” would work as an excuse to Mara

[chrome fog]

Oversight on Variks and the Vanguard’s side, though again we never knew how Eramis was going to just get freed from her supposedly invincible Stasis prison

Which is what Waltz has said already

[ember storm]

it makes sense, really

there was no reason to assume the witness could even do that

if it could, why wouldn’t it just tap into the stasis of every guardian opposing it and just freeze them

[slim elk]

More pointing that it's really odd Variks hasn't been followed up on
Or as Waltz put it... shipped to the Awoken to explain how he missed Salvation reorganizing

[chrome fog]

Variks would already be coordinating any moves against the remnants of House Salvation and just kicking it back after failing hard for the longest while, what expectation would he have of Eramis coming back when Guardians would report such

[ember storm]

if you're really up at arms at bungie for one sentence in a random armor lore piece, i'm surprised you're not complaining about Rasputin's "My sight will stretch to the end of this system and beyond. Never again will a threat go unseen" line

[slim elk]

Nah. I just find it bemusing that a character with significant links to a seasonal arc villain hasn't gotten any follow up or acknowledgement despite perfectly fitting the storyline

[ember storm]

plunder was more about exploring Mithrax's past and Eramis' present and how they're both dealing with that while striving for a better future in their own eyes

i don't really see what variks would add besides just being a yes-man

eido, spider, and drifter were already there too

[fiery copper]

what, you expect him to just sit up there and never take a bathroom break?

[ember storm]

he probbaly has to go to elsie's camp every time

no wonder he missed eramis

[chrome fog]

That’s why he doesn’t speak, bro knows it’s joever for him once he mentions he was over at Elsie’s camp when Eramis escaped

[grand jungle]

how did sav even trap rhulk

isnt he way stronger then she is

[real ingot]

Wellspring

[smoky rose]

Its her throne world

She has complete mental authority over it

[slim elk]

Better question is her curbstomping Nezarec

[dim minnow]

a sneak attack I presume

[exotic cloak]

Did Banshee visited Clovis Bray?

[trim grotto]

He said he would but we never found out if he did

Maybe he forgot

[ember storm]

ambush gets a free round of combat

[exotic cloak]

It would be interesting to find out that Clovis took control of him and just acts like him

Though it wouldn't really make sense or have a function

[little gorge]

i want to see where clovis will go next

after seraph it's really unclear

[real ingot]

issue is Clovis in the grand scheme can't really do much

he's stuck on Europa

[exotic cloak]

And well we obliterated the crypt

[dim minnow]

crypt is still there

it is just defenseless now

[exotic cloak]

Wait what

[dim minnow]

well yeah

the Morningstar was not the crypt

and while it did crash over the crypt, the crypt is still there for anyone to claim

[velvet flax]

Yeah and it's more vulnerable than ever since we destroyed its Securitg system

[jolly vector]

not like the vanguard just have 0 guards around the place

and elsie is also hanging around all the time to look after the giant head

[slim perch]

i mean isnt the hidden basically

scouring that place

or really the hidden just

scour any place of interest

[fresh zephyr]

This games lore is a cluster fuck

A cool one

But a cluster fuck nonetheless

[trim grotto]

There's a lot of it.

But, we've got a lot of resources for it too.

[fresh zephyr]

I want to know something
Riven is a Ahamkara right?

[fiery copper]

Yes

The last known one

Petra says it while you're loading into last wish

[fresh zephyr]

The key word here is known
There could be another nightmare enduring nocturnal demon lizard somewhere

[fiery copper]

I mean

[trim grotto]

In theory, yes.

[fiery copper]

There could be

[trim grotto]

Riven isn't quite like the normal Ahamkara, though. She was also Taken.

[fresh zephyr]

That uno reversed oryx

[trim grotto]

Something like that

[fiery copper]

You also have to consider the lore from a meta perspective, though. WOULD bungie make it so that there was actually another secret ahamkara that they never said anything about ever?

I dont think they would.

[trim grotto]

The WQ Ahamkara illusion was fantastic though

[fresh zephyr]

They probably will
1st why is riven the last ahamkara?

[fiery copper]

Oh absolutely

[trim grotto]

hang on

[fiery copper]

We killed the rest

The Great Hunt

Not us specifically, I mean We as in guardians

[fresh zephyr]

Maybe some of them went into hiding to avoid the hunt?

[fiery copper]

I mean I would assume so, but when you're given orders to extinct an entire species, I don't think you're gonna be stopped by your target hiding under a cardboard box.

We have an entire archetype of people called Hunters after all

[trim grotto]

i felt like talking this one out

[fresh zephyr]

Maybe there just great at hiding
Or some more "powerful forces" help them out

[fiery copper]

I like picturing you as a voiceless enigma so I'm not gonna listen to that, but whatever you said I 100% agree

[fiery copper]

The more powerful force was Mara, and she did indeed help riven hide.

[trim grotto]

Here's the thing - if any survived, they're very likely outside of Sol. Even the Nine do not have access to the Ahamkara anymore, and they, in some ways, are the Solar System.

Not that it really matters because the Ahamkara are shifty trickster jerks and the Nine don't think like we do so their wish to become real failed hilariously

But nevertheless

[fresh zephyr]

OK
A.damn you got such a narrator esc voices
B. The shit you say about them is mind bogling. Yes they sound unfathomably dangerous. But to hunt them down to extinction,that just sounds cruel as hell

[fresh zephyr]

The awoken in dreaming city just sounds like selfish loosers ngl

[trim grotto]

It's been debated amongst the community as to whether it was the "right" thing to do
But I like to reference one Ahamkara in particular when it comes to this topic

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/azirim

[fresh zephyr]

They can make a bargen or something then to just wipe them out
Surely not all of them are evol right?

[trim grotto]

They're not... evil, per se. But they're selfish and reality-warping. They can change aspects of existence itself.

[fresh zephyr]

Again extremely dangerous power
But it's not like they can't be reasoned with

[trim grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/@DestinyLoreVault/search?query=azirim
There's even a bunch of patrols describing Azirim

[fresh zephyr]

Who's Azirim?

[trim grotto]

Well that's the issue
To reason with, you must want. You must wish. To wish is to feed the Ahamkara and seal a pact.

[trim grotto]

An Ahamkara who led dozens of Awoken civilians to their deaths

Like the Pied Piper, if he bade them to walk off of a cliff willingly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCImJWDewY4

[fresh zephyr]

Wow they sound near unredeemable

But who knows
Maybe we'll get a season where we discover a surviving ahamkara that's not hostile

[trim grotto]

It's possible. I, personally, don't think it's likely, but it's possible. It'd undoubtedly involve Mara, as she's one of the very, very few people who could be alone with Riven in person without unwittingly making a Wish or being seen as a feast.

"You know this truth, wise Queen. He is so full of succulence."

"Mm. And why do you roost here when there is rich hunting beyond my Reef?"

"Truly I say to you"—here Mara hides a small smile—"the Awoken have entrusted What-Will-Be to you their Queen, and thus they are all dry as a stone to me. Pleasantly so, for wetness is sweet feed, but dry stone is a friendly basking-place. You, you are as hot and flat as the plateaus of Mercury, and your heat stirs my blood to move."```
<https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/riven>

[fresh zephyr]

alright another question

Are the ahamkara related to the worm gods in any way

[trim grotto]

Ah! Yes, excellent question, and yes, technically they are.

[fresh zephyr]

What are the worm gods actually?
There worms,I get that,but the god part throws me off

[trim grotto]

3. I've been correlating information on the Ahamkara and the Hive worm parasites. Both display a peculiar ability to convert the host's intent into an ontomorphic, reality-altering effect. Both use similar language in their appeal to the host. I don't think they're the same species, however. The Hive worms spawn large numbers of young from relatively few adults, always display the same physical form, and live in communal groups. The Ahamkara are solitary, elusive, and seem to alter form to suit (or confuse) expectations. The shared syntax "o ___ mine" may be the key—it seems to be a shibboleth used to invoke an ontomorphic effect, placing the target in a cage of "o" (activational, specific, appealing, and naming) and "mine" (defining ownership and subordination). Ahamkara and worm may have evolved separately to exploit this effect, just as many species independently evolve eyes. This might place them in competition for the same ecological niche. I would expect a rivalry or antipathy between them.
This is from Truth To Power. It's an infamous book that hides truth in lies, but rest assured, it is holding real information, with this entry appearing to be amongst them.

[fresh zephyr]

So they share an ancestor?

[trim grotto]

The Worm Gods were once like Ahsa, who we consider to be a Proto-Worm. At some point in their deep (no pun intended) past, their species accepted a temptation of Darkness and corruption, turning them into what we know today as the Worm Gods.
They're psionic creatures that feast on certain ontological aspects of their prey. Being true to a certain type of life, and the tribute of slaughter and death.
At some point the Worm Gods we knew were imprisoned in the core of Fundament (the Hive origin world) by the Leviathan. Rhulk dived deep, found Xita, the Mother Worm, made a bargin, and stole her away to his Pyramid to power the Upended. He carved her flesh and infused it with Pyramid tech, creating the Parasite Worms we see the Hive with.

One of these made its way to the Osmium Court, and blah blah Books of Sorrow, Worm Gods are free and the Hive exist now

[trim grotto]

In theory! It is worth noting, however, that TTP is essentially from Savathûn, so it's not gospel. But yes, she seems to believe so.

[fresh zephyr]

That's why there body is so freaking long
I just played last wish and got creeped out by how huge she is

[trim grotto]

Riven's a long girl

But, Ahamkara are also shapeshifters.

[fresh zephyr]

But when you think about it
There just huge house lizards

[fresh zephyr]

Say what now?

[slim elk]

They can legitimately change their shape
Saladin wanted to be a dragonslayer... so an Ahamkara turned into a literal dragon as he killed it

[trim grotto]

Riven turns to watch. On this day, her head is the size of a Fallen pike. She is vibrant blue with a yellow and red crest, and her pupils are crescents within her lidless eyes. After a time, she says, "Madadh is dead but you make him no bouquet."
When it came time to connect the Well to the unreality that lay beyond the gateway, Sedia asked, "Would it not be wiser to leave this door without a key?" Riven, now an immense antlered serpent with broad tiger paws, tightened around the perimeter of the room like a noose.

The Ahamkara looked like somebody's kindly old grandpa just now. And it could play a mean hand of cards. "Twenty," it crooned as it raised the stakes. She saw Caliban's eye sensors dilate.```
```The massive Vex construct that was the Ahamkhara towered over them, and Taeko-3 tried not to be bored. Being bored might lead to idle wishes, and that would be bad right now. She thought again about the name she'd squinted at on the porcelain chit when she'd drawn lots back at the Tower. Two-name Guardians always struck her as a little pretentious.```

[fresh zephyr]

They already are though

[trim grotto]

Shapeshifting

[fresh zephyr]

Right cool

I'm not so much interested in the wider lore of d2 but more so the biology of the various creatures in the universe
Like the ahamkara,worm gods,and of course...
The star horse
That darn horse

[trim grotto]

I, uh... I wouldn't bother putting too much thought into the Horse, haha

[fresh zephyr]

It just kind of a meme

[trim grotto]

We've got the biology of the Vex, which is a fun one

[slim elk]

Starhorse is canon in a sense mind you
Drifter saw it before as the Nine gave him some "peptalk"

[fresh zephyr]

There fuckin robots
Plain and simple

[fresh zephyr]

Wu-
Drifter met the nine before?

[trim grotto]

Drifter's been dealing with the Nine for years

[trim grotto]

Not so! They are the milk. Or rather, the contents of it.

[fresh zephyr]

To think such a omnipresent being is giving shits about a bozo like him
Weird

[fresh zephyr]

Huh?what's that supposed to imply

[slim elk]

That whole thing behind his ship?

"An engine of limitless potential" Given by the Nine

[green cobalt]

a girl he fancied turned into the emissary for the nine because she was seeking them

[trim grotto]

Chemically, the Vex milk is an alkaline solution of dense salts in water. The salts range from sodium and calcium to lead and even (in barely detectable amounts) plutonium. Not good to drink.

Suspended in this solution are cells in solicoid structure, 100-200 micrometers in size. Their shapes are heterogenous but always geometric, reminiscent of Earth’s radiolarian protozoa. Many have needle-like pseudopods, which transform between stiff spines and motile whips on the basis of some piezoelectric response. Imaging of internal structure detects a nucleus, and a genetic molecule analogous to SNA (though i speculate read-write times are much faster, on the order of milliseconds, perhaps exploiting some quantum effect).```

[fresh zephyr]

I thought that's just a mote bank

[slim elk]

Drifter uses it to make Fake Taken

[fresh zephyr]

Are the "milk" those fluid that damage you in some maps?

[trim grotto]

Yes
It fills their chassis too

[slim elk]

Yep
Radioloaria

[trim grotto]

Radiolaria, Mind Fluid

That is the Vex

[fresh zephyr]

Ohhhh
So the motes are those engines?

[trim grotto]

The robots are simply... mechs. Piloted by thinking liquid.

[slim elk]

If you play as an Exo, you got a substance derived from Radioloaria as blood equivalent

[fresh zephyr]

Make sense to me

[slim elk]

No
More the "fuel"

[fresh zephyr]

Ohhh the banks are the engine

[trim grotto]

https://youtu.be/ePuiXCVNpeY

Also like, all of Prophesy

He once knew the Emissary, when she was a Titan named Orin

And the Nine recognised him as one who has... moved past his place on the board. The Dredgen, the Hourglass, and the Forgotten Blade. Drifter, Elsie, Eris.

The first users of Darkness to use it without corruption, to use it for their own purposes.

[fresh zephyr]

Alright so basically
The nine and drifter are homies?

[trim grotto]

Eeehhhh no

He does not like them
They stole Orin from him, they mess with his head

There's also this cutscene
https://youtu.be/IjGmD_x03no?t=36

[slim elk]

The nine do be playing the long game it seems
Drifter basically said as much this season

[fresh zephyr]

I still don't get that horse

Like,what's with the horse?

[trim grotto]

Nobody does

Some think there's a connection with the Dark Horse nebula but that's honestly a stretch and doesn't explain anything either way

[fresh zephyr]

So the horse is just, a horse
That exist

[trim grotto]

pretty much
then was reused for the 30th memes

[fresh zephyr]

How about xur?

Is there anything interesting about him?

[trim grotto]

Ooh yeah
So Xur's tale is vague for the most part, and we've had to piece some bits together

Xur appears to be a member of a colony (presumably lost) who willingly gave himself up to the Nine. They reforged his body into what you know today, but, well, the Nine aren't very good at understanding how bodies work.
Xur is dying. His cells are falling apart, his body growing weary, his mind is not all there. Nonetheless, he willingly preforms his duty as the Agent of the Nine.
One issue with his body that the Nine aren't the cause of is his hunch. Orin, who you may recall eventually became the Emissary of the Nine, once met him in a cave in her search for the Nine. Mistaking one of his actions as reaching for a weapon (he was returning a jar of ashes from her past life as a Human, which she kept as an Awoken (one of the original)), but forgot upon being a Guardian, she slammed him with her warhammer into a boulder and broke his spine.

[chrome fog]

You should listen he sounds a bit like Byf

[fiery copper]

you mean i can feed my Sultry British Man addiction without watching byf?

sign me UP

[little gorge]

no way it's an unreleased byf video on the ahamkara hunt

[chrome fog]

I take offense to that, Drifter’s an interesting lad

[chrome fog]

Hornse is Bungo

[little gorge]

a horse made destiny 2?

explains a lot

[chrome fog]

It dooooeeessss connect us to armor and weapons from previous Bungie titles

Also pulls a Crota out of a couple parallel universes for us to kick the shit out of casually

[little gorge]

i like the implication that us killing crota in our universe essentially wiped out crota from every universe because our lack of crota caused starhorse to take all the others

[chrome fog]

Essentially

[fresh zephyr]

Ah make sense

[chrome fog]

It’s also funny that the Son of Oryx is the final boss with essentially two nobodies

Talk about a demotion

[little gorge]

ah yes the dares bosses:

[fresh zephyr]

And eternity is just a manifestation of bungie hq
A litteral ice wasteland

[little gorge]

former raid final boss
funny wall vex
cabal

[fresh zephyr]

Who will you pick to fight?
A slightly intimidating vex
A somewhat tall cabal
Or the son of a hive god that has wiped put thousands of guardian?

[little gorge]

well you don't choose

you just make a worthless attempt to guess

[exotic cloak]

Is Juan, the galactic horse

It's not just a simple horse, not all horses are Juan

[ember storm]

to your knowledge

in secret every horse just bides their time waiting until everybody accepts their death so they can ascend to their jaun forms without any witnesses

[exotic cloak]

[chrome fog]

Like Jesus, Juan is in every Destiny character’s heart

[exotic cloak]

Amen

[little gorge]

i leave lore chat for 20 minutes and it becomes religious wholesomeness

(still talking about a horse though)

[final stream]

if stasis and strand are darkness

why don't they perma kill guardians

[ember storm]

that's not how it works

darkness doesn't automatically drain light

that's a unique property of stuff like the og thorn

if simple darkness damage perma killed guardians, we'd just keel over everytime the hive sneezed at us

[green cobalt]

they don't cancel each other out like that

[shadow warren]

I remember getting a voice line from the drifter not too long ago. Don’t recall if it was a cutscene or seasonal dialogue, but he mentioned how he encountered creatures outside of the solar system that “suppressed the light”

Was he referring to the aphelion?

[wind belfry]

the zorpaloids

[rich veldt]

unlikely

[shadow warren]

Ah wasn’t sure. I remember a Byf video talking about them and I thought he said something about suppressing light

[trim grotto]

No.

It's a... well, we don't know what it is.

But it is distinct from the Aphelion.

[shadow warren]

Has he encountered them?

[trim grotto]

Drifter did, yes. His entire crew died on that planet. Only he survived.

That's when he tinkered with his Ghjot and hang on im in iron abnner oine sec

[shadow warren]

Wait yeah that was also in his voice line

I definitely remember him saying that was when he needed to modify his ghost to survive

And he was with a crew who never made it out. He very strongly hinted at the fact that he killed some of them himself

[trim grotto]

Sorry 'bout that, bit of IB.
Basically outright said it.
Anyway, modifying his Ghost is what allowed him to began researching the Mote banks and begin Gambit, in the end. Gave him access to Stasis, it seems.

[shadow warren]

I see

[fiery copper]

why was Argos so close to the surface of nessus?

the leviathan barely took a chunk out of nessus, and apparently sucked up THE planetary mind??

[ember storm]

nessus is pretty hollow

plus it was probably argos' entire plan to stop the leviathan

[fresh zephyr]

Ig we just don't really have enough info on that matter

Bungie more or less tried to forget about d2y1 for a while tbh

[ember storm]

argos was never really important anyway

[fresh zephyr]

True

He was hyped up for the raid, and after everyone was anticipating other planetary minds but then that never happened

[ember storm]

it was hyped up?

[fresh zephyr]

I mean

Just before the raid came out I remember people speculating abt it a bit

But "hype" really isn't the right word

It's just that people were disappointed after Levianthan and were hoping that this raid would bring back that D1 feel eventhough it was labeled as a "raid lair"

[ember storm]

i mean, crota was basically a raid lair

[empty fern]

Any lore on the light eater ogres and knights besides the kings fall raid?

[ember storm]

yummy light

[empty fern]

Damn

[chrome fog]

I hate GoS, would just like to share

[slim elk]

Gameplay wise or lorewise?

The greatest hatred having lately is the Wicked implement boss...

[steep epoch]

What happens when something like the red war happens (guardian + ghost lose connection to light and both die) can another ghost claim the dead guardian as theirs?

Tl:Dr Can guardians have another ghost if their first one dies

[empty fern]

We thought this happened to us during red war (rumors) and also yes I think ghost can res other guardians

[smoky rose]

Don't think its ever been specified

If a Guardian is still alive and their first ghost dies, there is zero indication that they can get another one

[empty fern]

I think that ghost that had the guardian trapped in the almighty beam and the ghost of the warlord might’ve risen other people (mainly the warlord ghost, hopefully not the almighty ghost)

[smoky rose]

All rumors of that were dispelled by the author who wrote the relevant lore

[empty fern]

Oooo

[jolly vector]

it used to be a big no until bungo went and retcon that shit

so who knows

[smoky rose]

Are you referring to Shin Malphur

That's a no

Like I just said

[empty fern]

Maybe we’ll get a hive ghost shell as a. Quest item

[smoky rose]

The writer explicitly said that was not the case

The ghosts just hang out with them

[jolly vector]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/5-moths-to-flame-part-ii#book-the-pigeon-and-the-phoenix

this one not shin

its not like it confirm it

[smoky rose]

There is no indication that this has ever actually worked

[jolly vector]

but they just went and say shit

[smoky rose]

Early dark age stuff

Bungie writes from perspectives

That's what Sagira thinks can happen

No evidence to support it

[jolly vector]

like I said who knows

[smoky rose]

If anything it's a hard reset, not a ghost just going and picking someone else

[jolly vector]

cus all this isnt even get confirm but they mostly just went and say shit how ever they want now

[smoky rose]

The Vex/Black Heart stuff and the Witness/Unveiling stuff are not retcons in the slightest btw

That's just a word people are throwing around

[jolly vector]

and tons of things dont even get into the main story anyway

people just saw lores, reddit posts and then make words up telling others

[smoky rose]

To use Unveiling as an example, people are like omg bungie went and made it so Unveiling wasn't the 100% actual origin of the universe

And its like

My brothers in christ

Unveiling has been sus as hell since we got it

Just because you drank the kool aid doesn't make it a retcon

[chrome fog]

We got Almighty dude off once the Almighty got sent into the Sun or whatever, so he’s recovered; as for that one warlord’s ghost, I don’t believe we’ve had any indication of them choosing another to ressurect

[empty fern]

Ah damn

My fanfic has been fanned

[chrome fog]

Fun Fact; Hope and Trust were the alternative Unveiling, depending on some choice I can’t remember

[trim grotto]

Well, actually, no. We never heard about the Guardian in the Almighty since the first and only time.
It also didn't get sent into the sun. It was launched directly at the Last City as a giant fucking metal meteor.

[empty fern]

With vanguard and gambit?

[trim grotto]

A choice that never came to light
It was simply how Seth was told to write it

[empty fern]

It nicked the tower then we planted a tree there

[trim grotto]

Dude I was nearly hit by that piece

[empty fern]

lol

Also

The underside is a fake wall, for leviathans path exit

[trim grotto]

Pardon?

[empty fern]

Stuff

Not too lore related

Bionic type faster

[chrome fog]

No retcon so far, that would entail that they rewrite how events literally happened instead of a new perspective, which is what they’ve been doing recently. Because of the unsatisfactory release of Lightfall players have been looking for an excuse to criticize Bungie - which is fair, but to the degree to call narrative twists and reveals “retcons” is annoying

[chrome fog]

It is 1:30 I cannot

[empty fern]

Beuh

[trim grotto]

You're a retcon

[empty fern]

Ah yes

His name is Brett con

[chrome fog]

Mr Con, but my friends call me Brett

“Why’s your last name Con?” My parents were Transformers fans and legally changed their last names to Con

[smoky rose]

At least pick things that are actually retcons

Like if you totally drank the Koolaid with Unveiling than sure its a retcon

But if you actually looked at it critically like most lore people did, its not at all

[royal portal]

what do we get from unveiling being a lie?

[smoky rose]

Entertainment because its really funny that people bought it

It's been a really hot topic since before WQ, and only hit a fever pitch during it

Once we knew the Witness' name

[royal portal]

I just dont see why knowing the witness is lying is some big twist that had to affect unveiling

[smoky rose]

Because we literally got Unveiling directly from the witness

Like

[royal portal]

”so thats why I wanna kill everything and everyone, switch teams”
”Lol I was lying”

thats the summary I got from all this

[smoky rose]

They never said they wanted to kill everyone

[royal portal]

the creation theory doesnt need to change and is independent from their motives. they just try to make a case for being necessary for life, but we already represent the opposite ideology so why would it being a lie matter

”im opposed to you, switch teams”
”lol I was lying”

[smoky rose]

But they aren't opposed to us

In fact they believe that we'd be a great fit

They are opposed to the chaos of the traveler

[royal portal]

and every action we take is STILL against it. Unveiling didnt need to be touched

but I do🫰

[smoky rose]

Now here's the thing, it was pretty clear to a lot of people that Unveiling was from the Witness

So if its from the Witness

Why would the Witness have told us the truth

And arguably it did, just through metaphor

[royal portal]

because the one thing that would matter being a lie, we are already against

Bungies experimental 5th wall breaking lore, using real life writers to fluff the lore to guide the player into modding their own tools, making their own ”destiny”

and savathun wants to get into our universe so she can use the hives combined billion years lf existence to dominate the stock market🫰

[empty fern]

Savathun escapes into our world and becomes a marketable plushie

[little gorge]

me when they discovered t rexes had feathers (it was a retcon)

[chrome fog]

Unveiling is supposed to convince us that the Witness is justified in its actions, as well as reinterpret the origin story of the Traveler; we already knew this because of its nature as a biased account from our enemy, but there are aspects of Unveiling we know to be certain. All that recent information has done is give us the alternative story that the Witness hid behind its own propaganda

Same as with Truth to Power, it's a book full of lies from Savathun to purposefully make it hard to sus out the truth, but that's not without any truth within

If you can't tell the truth from falsehoods then that's even less information you have

Unveiling is religious propaganda from the way it is obviously trying to appeal to the Witness' ideals of "Survival of the Fittest", which is where the Sword Logic is derived from

We've already sussed out what is true and what is questionable in the lore book, all we needed were the alternative explanations which Ahsa has given us

[true vault]

whos vuvuzela?

[sick yew]

Its what Asher Mir once called Zavala

[true vault]

oooooh

i just remembered that one quote from mithrax during node avalon

so i was wondering who vuvuzela was

[vague wren]

returning player here, could someone give me a TLDR from Warmind up to season of the deep?

[fiery copper]

Gimme a minute to type it out

[ember storm]

completely unaffected by past or present events, a being transcending the normal flow of time and space takes the form of a cosmic horse and summons us to participate in a series of challenges called Dares of Eternity, kidnapping Xur in the process to act as the host

there's my addition

goodbye

[blazing wasp]

Oh lord, ok

Cayde's dead to uldren, we kill uldren, he becomes guardian, we discover darkness pyramid on moon, we enter it and have a chat, then we're invited by it to Europa and we learn ice magic after massacring a darkness affiliated house, we make friends with some cabal that are leaded by calus's daughter, caiatl, make friends with a group of eliksni, somewhere along this rasputin is also plugged off by darkness
Osiris' ghost dies and savathun takes over his body until we free him, savathun removes her worm and turns to the light but she's still cringe and she gets a ghost and tried to join our traveler and almost succeeds
Then big bad dark guy races us to Neptune to do some stuff to traveler where we kill calus along the way and fail so traveler has a portal in it now and is kinda in a coma IG

That's the short version that skips a lot of details

[ember storm]

don't forget ghost community theatre

that's the most important thing

[blazing wasp]

I skipped details, even important ones

Just to keep it short

[ember storm]

i want no excuses

[blazing wasp]

Then weep.

[ember storm]

footnote also Saint-14 was brought back from the dead from a magic time machine

he likes pigeons

[blazing wasp]

Oh yeah and rasputin is dead

[fiery copper]

So in warmind we saved Rasputin from Xol.

Forsaken is up next. Cayde gets killed by Uldren Sov, brother of Mara Sov and resident Emo Bitchass. He unknowingly uses the magic of a wish-dragon named Riven to create undead Eliksni aka the Scorn with the help of Fikrul the Fanatic, a captain whose life he saved using said Wish Magic. We hunt down Uldren and his Scorned Barons, in the process discovering the Dreaming City, second home of the awoken. We find out Riven was Taken by Oryx, and we hunt her down in the Last Wish raid. However, Oryx wasn't the only Hive God to influence Riven. When we struck the final blow, THE Last Wish, made by Savathun, cursed the DC with a 3 week cycle of being more and more Taken, before resetting when we kill Dul Incaru, a daughter of Savathun.

Alright gonna speedrun the Y2 seasons now. Black Armory, we meet a hot robot named Ada-1 who lets us use her forges to make fan-favorite guns. Joker's Wild, we do some shit activities and get some deep lore on The Nine. Season of Opulence, Emperor Calus invites us to be part of his game show and raises the expectations of the entire playerbase so high that every season after it feels bad by comparison.

Next up is Y3.

[trim grotto]

[true vault]

whar

[fiery copper]

Shadowkeep comes out, where we discover a Pyramid Ship on the Moon. You know those wacky triangles from the end cutscene of d2 vanilla? Yeah those are back, at least one of them. We fight some Nightmares, incarnations of personal trauma, and act as Eris' therapist. We eventually infiltrate the pyramid with her help, and get a cliffhanger cutscene. This also gave us Unveiling, the most important lorebook in the entirety of destiny.

Now, the Seasons.

Undying, we kill the Undying Mind.

Dawn, we use Osiris' Sundial to stop a cabal invasion of the past, present, and future. We also save Saint-14 from the infinite forest, and he is now the Trials vendor.

Worthy, we launch a shitton of warsats so that Rasputin can destroy The Almighty before it smashes into the City and kills everyone.

Arrivals, the Pyramids arrive in force and test us, attempting to convert us to the side of the Darkness. Savathun is also back on her bullshit and we stop her from... doing something. I forget.

Beyond Light coming up.

[ember storm]

may i make a suggestion

personally i would wait and see if the person is even reading this before typing

[fiery copper]

No

[vague wren]

Yes

[safe galleon]

second footnote the big bad, Evil Megamind, is actually just an entire species of redditors in a trenchcoat

[chrome fog]

Mechabre my favorite lore entry

[green cobalt]

do we know why hive ghosts have distinct hive features despite still being ghosts like does default ghost appearance depend on the species of the user/chosen?

[blazing wasp]

They're probably just given shells

by the hive

[chrome fog]

Glint’s (Crow’s ghost) a good non-hive example of this, his was gifted to him when he was still called Pulled Pork

[ember storm]

ghost shells were always a thing in lore

[tawdry mauve]

What about their eyeballs

They seem to be completely different

Like a glowing and moving green

[blazing wasp]

Some ghost shells change eyeballs too

[tawdry mauve]

The color maybe

[blazing wasp]

they can probably jsut

do it

doesnt seem out of the question for space magic robots to change their eyes like that

[tawdry mauve]

I think giving hive ghosts those designs was a big mistake in the long run

[smoky rose]

wdym

[tawdry mauve]

Its hard for me to describe it rn

Especially typing from my phone

[smoky rose]

You mean like making them a more obvious target?

[tawdry mauve]

No

Like

Minimizes the whole "Holy shit all these ghosts betrayed the traveller" vibe

Makes them seem too hive like

Especially when they screech while dying

Feels like there is less of a feeling of actually killing the same ghosts that follow human guardians around

[smoky rose]

Presumably that's why Fynch is there

To humanize them

[tawdry mauve]

Well yeah but im refering to the base design of the hivd ghosts

And the impact i was left with during witch queen

[paper gorge]

Did immaru have a hive shell before he met savathun

[blazing wasp]

yes

which makes me believe this was planned ahead of time

hive sympathiser ghosts already existed

[paper gorge]

What i was not aware of that

[chrome fog]

Well regardless we’ve had shells that change the ‘eye’ of a ghost before

Like some turn the eye different colors, make it or the iris - the middle part idk - have a different shape, and what not

[tawdry mauve]

When i said eye i was refering to the metal core around it

like this

hive ghosts have 1 solid green orb as their "core"

[ember storm]

hive magic and whatnot

[ember storm]

it's also worth noting not every ghost is like that

fat ghosts like jinju and glint have their "cores" as oblong shapes and rectangular eyes

[green cobalt]

therefore ghosts are custom made for their chosen /s

[ember storm]

it does imply Osiris really pimped out Sagira one time super early on

which is funny

[tawdry mauve]

its actually jinju

[chrome fog]

They said jinju

[ember storm]

actually it's jinju

[tawdry mauve]

nu uh

[ember storm]

yuh huh

[blazing wasp]

Ginyu

Like the ginyu force

[empty fern]

Who the fuck is jinju

And ginyu

[chrome fog]

Ginyu is a Dragon Ball Villain

Jinju is Ana Bray’s Ghost

[empty fern]

Ohhhh

[shadow warren]

What are the corrupted eggs in the dreaming city? Ahamkara eggs?

[ember storm]

taken and dead

but yes

ahamkara used to frequent the dreaming city

circle of life happened

[bronze crag]

Just read guardians can use strand to pretty much have spider sense

That's fucking sick

[chrome fog]

It is the manipulation of the connective psychic fabric laid over all physical reality, the Weave

[shadow warren]

Ah dead

Rip

[exotic cloak]

there is no ahamkara anymore

[shadow warren]

There’s gotta be one out there somewhere

[blazing wasp]

We kinda killed every other ahamkara

[shadow warren]

Nah trust

[exotic cloak]

If we find another we'll probably kill it, you know Guardians love to exterminate other races

[frail sparrow]

Can awoken become exos?

[trim grotto]

In theory, perhaps, sure.
But no Exo have been made since the Golden Age (or mid-Collapse, to be technical) other than the Rasputin frame.

[slim elk]

Technically false
Atraks:Fallen Exo

[exotic cloak]

It seems strange to me that there are not more fallen exos

I mean Atraks had time to switch bodies and revive Taniks I guess some lieutenant was there and saw the process to replicate it

[chrome fog]

That was specifically them hijacking the systems in order to do so; by the time the Awoken arrived we did not have the chance to use the Deep Stone Crypt. Nowadays we can probably use it but up to this point it was not likely any Awoken became an Exo

[exotic cloak]

By the way how Atraks created a body before we arrived

When you defeat Eramis, only Praksis remains, implying that we already defeated Atraks and Taniks

Or did I misunderstand that?

[shadow warren]

Doesn’t dsc take place after the events of the campaign

[exotic cloak]

I thought so but I had my doubts

Raids are supposed to happen after campaigns but DSC already gives you an incentive during the campaign when Eramis gives the order to activate it

And then when you defeat her Elsie says that the secrets of Europa and the crypt are open

And well, it is emphasized that only kridis remains

[shadow warren]

Oh I see what you’re saying

[exotic cloak]

Take GoS for example, it's obvious that it happens after Shadowkeep campaing

Vow would be at a midpoint of the post-game

But DSC does not make it clear at any time when it happens, only gives hints in the campaign

[trim grotto]

Yes. Eramis tells Atraks to prepare the body near the end of the campaign.

It's either referring to her own exp body or Taniks

[trim grotto]

Yes, true

[shadow warren]

Oh could she have been referring to her own body?

I always assumed it was taniks’s

[echo fjord]

obviously guardians need human needs like food and water, but do they have a residence, as in do they have like a house, or do they just live in the tower/around the city

[ember storm]

depends on the guardian

[echo fjord]

do they just sleep in their ship

[trim grotto]

Sloane had an apartment in the City. But it isn't an often-discussed topic, actually.

[slim elk]

At most Hunters are mentioned to have dens they frequent a lot
Ikora has her own personal private library

[trim grotto]

she sleeps on a nest of doctorate papers

[slim elk]

Drifter ironically is the only one we seen where he actually lives and sleeps

[dim minnow]

untrue

[slim elk]

Hm?
Remember we had exploration of the Derelict back in Season of the Drifter

[dim minnow]

yes

I'm saying that he wasn't the only one

in the Harbinger mission, we end up in the place Crow lived in before coming to the Tower

[ember storm]

the shit bucket lives on

[wind belfry]

And Elsie Bray
She got the hut in beyond

[chrome fog]

Elsie isn’t a guardian

[wind belfry]

oh i didn't see the context of guardians

[empty fern]

Like it’s guardian it’s been revived

[little gorge]

so if unveiling is just propaganda by the witness why does it speak like that

same with oryx communing with the deep

it has a friendly tonr

[real ingot]

Meant to help convert us

Show that it is right

[little gorge]

but why with oryx

[real ingot]

Oryx was a servant gaining power

[ember storm]

i mean, that's the point

it's not strictly "i am lying to you to sound better"

it's almost guaranteed what the witness genuinely believes

[ember storm]

again, that's the point

the witness is so convinced of its cause that it just plainly lays the information out and expects you to go along with it

it literally says "the children of sol cry out for salvation", so it isn't really looking at things how they are

[exotic cloak]

that's why i'm confuse

Eramis tells Atraks to go to the crypt, I suppose that it is also an indication for the player to go

After defeating Eramis in the last cinematic, Elsie says that the crypt is open. And then in the post-game with Variks it is made clear that only Kridis was alive

[ember storm]

what does it matter

nothing changes if DSC happens before or after the priestess empire hunt

that's entirely the reason nobody bought into it and decided "hm i want to join the black fleet now"

[little gorge]

stating that a belief is fact can be considered propaganda ig

[exotic cloak]

It could be assumed that we managed to open the crypt after defeating Eramis, but in DSC the AI ​​says that the crypt is now open after we destroy the station

[exotic cloak]

Well, yeah

[ember storm]

propaganda by definiton is just a biased statement leading you to a certain pov

bias doesn't automatically mean lies

unveiling is biased in premise, but pretty accurate

[exotic cloak]

But I would like to say that DSC is the only raid that doesn't happen in endgame and that's why I want to confirm

[little gorge]

except for the "sword logic good bomb logic bad" part

[chrome fog]

However the information itself is jank; the tone used with the Gardener and the Winnower is meant to portray the former as foolish and the latter as being logical, reasonable. That’s how they convince you it’s correct, if it wasn’t for the fact that you read between the lines of the metaphor and realize that we are said Flowers in the Flower Game.

And it’s trying to recruit as many individuals and races to help aid its efforts of achieving its goal, much like a cult of personality

Very unsubtly, reading into the Witness’ ideology and its methods of recruitment and there is a parallel to authoritarian regime building

• Nihilistic/Pessimist thought fueling offensive action to “take what is rightfully theirs”
• Recruitment through their cult of personality (sharing similar sentiment to others and offering the chance to “also take what should be theirs”) as well through forceful means and bribery
• “What should be theirs” in this context would be to define the purpose of the universe in light of its inherent meaninglessness

That’s how propaganda gets you, it says “This is the truth, you must believe it” and you simple accept it because it seems truthful enough

Why do you think a bunch of alt-right personalities get a huge following? Because they say they are telling the truth and then tell their targeted audience what they want to hear, with an extra twist to ensure they go along with what they’re saying

It’s a very easy discussion: Witness is a nihilistic sack of sad and trying to convince everyone else it’s right

Why’d you delete it, it’s an important question to ask

I already came to the conclusion, where would I have taken it?

Witness has clear authoritarian parallels, which reflects to us - the Guardian - fighting back against such a being

Getting swept into believing Unveiling doesn’t mean anything horrible on anyone’s part, just that the propaganda worked the way it intended, which we mitigate by researching other sources of info to verify

[torpid flint]

He just doesn’t like where it relates to being somewhat political

[chrome fog]

Ah, understandable

To bring it back down, Witness is the epitome of nihilistic thought at its most negative, and so we actively combat against it because self-destruction of the universe for the simple reason of “Purpose” is bad

[torpid flint]

I know it’s been said before

But the entire existence of his nihilism is hypocritical to himself

a true nihilist wouldn’t be alive

[wheat latch]

Hypocritical is a lil too far imo but I see what you mean

Can't do anything about a problem you see if you're dead

[torpid flint]

Problem is, if everything is dead, yes there’s no pain but you just caused a lot of pain

[wheat latch]

But there is no more

Lol

[torpid flint]

You can say it’s a means to an end yes

[wheat latch]

Yeah

But tbf a lot of villains have holes in their ideology

[little gorge]

if they didn't they'd be right

[wheat latch]

Correct haha

[little gorge]

not that you can't make a villain that's as right as the "good" characters are

[wheat latch]

Diablo 4 would like to speak with you

[torpid flint]

I just don’t feel like the witness is a super compelling villain. I like Savvy cause she’s got a deeper character

Not saying he’s not a good villain

[wheat latch]

Oh I misread the double negative as a single, yes you're right, diablo being an example

[chrome fog]

Exactly why they’re the negative side of Nihilism, and why I was making parallels to Authoritarianism

[little gorge]

the witness is practically just an angry mob who merged into one being to continue chasing the traveller

btw why is the witness officially "it"

they makes way more sense

literally plural they

[chrome fog]

Exactly, that’s why refer to them as “It” or “They”

They heavily use “We” when referring to themselves

[wheat latch]

I was just typing that

[chrome fog]

Even prior to the cutscene

[little gorge]

they is more logical than it tho

and it has stuck around

[chrome fog]

Well what if you have to describe them as “… is”?

[wheat latch]

"They are"

[chrome fog]

We just swap around anyways because some people don’t wanna say They or It and say he

[chrome fog]

Fair

[wheat latch]

But it does take some moving around of words to make "they" work

[chrome fog]

Whereas It fits nicely to any sentences using “he”

[wheat latch]

They seem to be portrayed as more masculine

[chrome fog]

I’d argue more androgynous, but that just explains why we interchange between “They” and “It” when discussing the Witness

[wheat latch]

Yeah I suppose you're right

[exotic cloak]

Ultron logic

I had higher hopes but the Witness is being quite a disappoint

[chrome fog]

I enjoyed them, they is a good Bad to justifiably beat the shit out of

[exotic cloak]

I don't want another Bad Guy whose legs i want to break

[little gorge]

they're just the embodiment of sword logic

[exotic cloak]

I guess that in the seasons you had more decent things but the villains I have been able to beat were somewhat disappointing, except Savathun

[chrome fog]

Eramis and Xivu look to be pretty good sympathetic villains whenever they return

In BL, Eramis was sort of the same with hints in the lore of her tragic past, but she’s been better (relatively) built up

[exotic cloak]

I liked Eramis in BL but she's not a villain I can empathize with, basically he's a crazy leader blinded by power

I would have liked more if she and her consuil were more logical

And that our reason to fight with them was more, not to activate the pyramids and do something stupid in Europa

Or something

[chrome fog]

Then you’d like her now, if bungo could just write her two characterizations to go together

[exotic cloak]

But they literally all turn on us

Filaks after seeing how we massacred his troops "this guy is clearly a threat beyond my capabilities, I'm going to face him"

[chrome fog]

To be fair she has a bit of a Lakshmi situation, where she was severely traumatized by witnessing the Whirlwind as well as seeing what the Guardians did to her people (yes, even if they attacked us)

[chrome fog]

And another tbf, the lieutenants all had actual Stasis splinters that (supposedly) are better than what the other guys got

[exotic cloak]

I hate the house of salvation because I can't empathize with them, I would have liked that we were more bad in BL

Something like, the vanguard detects the house of salvation and due to the threat of darkness we decide to eliminate them

And we are ambushing their leaders

That would make it more logical for Filaks and Praksis not to be a challenge

That would also make more sense with the crypt, where we essentially ambushed Atraks and Taniks.

[chrome fog]

I like that idea, it would play better into Eramis detesting the Guardians and the Traveler since we basically would assassinate her friends

[exotic cloak]

The biggest problem with the history of this game for me is that almost all the time we are the good guys.

And as you explained to me before, Traveler is a victim who has been forced by circumstances

So we don't have that of following a selfish god either

The worst thing Guardians have done is Iron Lords being cruel and the end of WQ

[chrome fog]

*Warlords

There is Forsaken, where basically we go edgy and rampage across the Tangled Shore, which puts into question how justified are we - the Young Wolf - to act as executioner to the Scorn Barons

[exotic cloak]

Wasn't there a story of a village destroyed by the Iron Lords or an occasion where someone's head was cut off?

[chrome fog]

That was the action of a single Iron Lord who was basically still doing Warlord stuff; plus Iron Lords were established after Warlords did their bullshit

[exotic cloak]

I guess at the time it was like that but now I don't know what makes us doubt that we should end the scorn now

[chrome fog]

Warlords like Citan, who hordes all the food in the region

[chrome fog]

They’re just really tragic zombies

Also Fikrul is really sad

[fierce dune]

So is the machrochosm room in the Ron raid like where the witness took the planets or just to view them.

[chrome fog]

It wasn’t the wrong thing to take down the Scorn Barons, but the motivation and how angry we were doing it, how personal we were making that mission out to be was the concern.

[exotic cloak]

Like the case of the Fallen who only want a home

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[chrome fog]

Bungo bingo

[exotic cloak]

But again as with the Fallen they attack us so justified genocide

[chrome fog]

It’s never really justified, just many different groups reacting to each other in incendiary ways

[fierce dune]

If it’s the former I hope (this is really just hopium for impossible stuff) we get to like find a way to release the planets and visit them like the witness’ planet

[chrome fog]

Supposedly we already have with Titan; dunno where you’re getting the Witness’ planet from

[exotic cloak]

I mean in WQ and BL the first bullet was fired by us so they are defending themselves

But in BL the leader was cruel and crazy and in WQ they wanted to steal the traveler from us to protect her (?

That's what I understood, or what Savathun wanted to do

[fierce dune]

I’m really not like I said it’s just hopium lol there is just some planets that are weird looking in that room that aren’t just a gas giant, titan, io, etc etc

[chrome fog]

In WQ I would say we struck first, Savathun’s been making plays for forever, especially in the season leading up to Witch Queen. She’s been possessing Osiris since Beyond Light and orchestrated the disaster of Splicer with Lakshmi opening up a Vex portal in the City, plus the many years of leading the Hive and playing information warfare with us

[chrome fog]

In Beyond Light, Eramis was making a push for the Kell of Kells title by reestablishing their capital Riis on Europa, which she is motivated to do because of personally seeing the Whirlwind - their Collapse - firsthand as well as being a former House of Devils member who saw us slaughter them wholesale during the SIVA Crisis PLUS everything else we’ve done against the Eliksni.

Savathun was planning to steal the Traveler from us and abscond forever, leaving everyone else in the universe to perish in the Witness’ pursuit. And the distance would certainly affect our ability to use the Light going by one of the Dark Futures where the Traveler leaves the Sol System

Eramis was certainly really angry and cruel, playing some dumb moves like recruiting Taniks, but not he could say it was because of her push to get justice for the Eliksni after everything that’s been done to them

Which is why I’d like Bungie to write the two parts of her character to interact a bit because you get really conflicting perspectives on her motivations

She understands her rage - while coming from a place of reason - is not the way that the Eliksni will rise back to prominence and that those like Eido are the true future, but at the same time she cannot let go of her grudge against us

And it’s all written as if the two sides are entirely separate when having them coincide together would make a lot of her actions make sense

Savathun herself is also very empathetic; she and all her sisters were gaslit by the Witness through this multi-level scheme involving Rhulk and the Worms into believing that the Traveler would cause the God Wave: a giant tsunami that would’ve wiped out their civilization on Fundament

For millennia, they’d been slaughtering wholesale on the unbeknownst order of the Witness, even to the point that Savathun herself questioned if there was another way

To which Oryx stated “No, we stick to this and perpetuate the Sword Logic”, and all three went their separate way

Now you have Savathun resurrected as a Lightbearer, whose been manipulated by her past life and her confidants on order of her past self, who is told that she was gaslit into committing cosmos spanning genocide

As well as Xivu Arath who is the last of the Osmium Court Princesses, last of her siblings to fully survive, last to continue the work that her siblings had dedicated their lives and deaths to

It’s all very Shakespearean for the Hive

[wheat latch]

Is sword logic similar to survival of the fittest? I forget

[trim grotto]

Very similar

[chrome fog]

Survival of the fittest with the added benefit of determining if others are fit to survive

[wheat latch]

What exactly is the hive's purpose

Like how do they use sword logic and such

[chrome fog]

They fight to literally survive, since it feeds their worms

Perpetuating violence through the Sword Logic allows one to accumulate Ascendent Energy, which they then feed to their worms as well as collect to empower themselves (I think, I’m not fully grasped on how it works)

[trim grotto]

To sharpen their metaphorical blade on the universe
Whatever survives deserves to live, whatever does not, does not. If you kill, their memory is kept in the notches on your sword. That which is the Final Shape, the last living concept, is the epitome and manifestation of the universe and its memory. You are the most worthy.

This is largely possible via the Worm Parasites, which feed on the ontological concept of death itself to empower themselves and their host

This is, however, an inevitable and slow death for the host. The hunger of the parasite grows exponentially. It will eventually consume its host, unless you redefine its nature as Sav did, or totally extract it, like Sav did.

This is why the Hive Tribute lines exist - so that those beneath you may feed your Worm and keep you growing in power, and not starving your Worm.

[midnight cypress]

We’ve got some essay writers in here

[wheat latch]

What about oryx and the other one, I forgot their name, xivu something?

[trim grotto]

i liek loar

[midnight cypress]

I noticed

[trim grotto]

Well, Oryx was killed because we systematically dismantled his Tribute Lines, weakening him significantly before our final battle.

Crota, the Warpriest, the Sisters, Golgoroth.

All key members of his Court and Tribute lines.

As for Xivu? She's still running strong on all fronts.

Xivu Arath, by the way.

[wheat latch]

Just seems like they have lived for so long that their worms would have gotten too "hungry"

For oryx I mean prior to us killing them

[trim grotto]

Savathûn nearly died from that whilst she was within the Last City. If she hadn't redefined her and her Worms existence to feed on Imbaru, trickery itself, she'd have starved to death already.

As for Oryx? Well, that's why the Tribute lines exist. Every single member of his Brood, from the Thrall to the Knights and Wizards and even Crota himself, all paid Tribute to their King.

In fact, it was Oryx who came up with the idea.

[wheat latch]

Oh so their use of sword logic went towards oryx's worm?

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic itself is more of a concept than a tangible force, but yes, the Tribute did

[chrome fog]

Sav spedran her way to the scenario you’re suggesting by tricking people into thinking she was Osiris; her Worm became too gluttonous and was about to kill her before Lost came around

Also Sav, Oryx, and Xivu’s worms work differently than the others

Savathun’s is Trickery
Oryx’s is Discovery(? Knowledge or something like that
Xivu’s is War, conflict itself

[trim grotto]

Well they feed off of two things
Death/Tribute, and the continued staying-true of the nature of the siblings

Which is, as said above, trickery, discovery, and conflict.

[wheat latch]

Is that why oryx dabbled with taken?

[trim grotto]

Sort of, in a roundabout manner.

He sought to commune with the Deep, to gain knowledge and power. To do this, he had to become more powerful himself, and so slew his sisters to grow powerful enough to challenge Akka, the Worm of Secrets, who many people misinterpret as being Oryx's specific "patron god" for some reason.

He slew Akka, and learned the secrets of communing with the Deep. That is how he learned to Take.

Wrote the whole thing down on the Tablets of Ruin.

[wheat latch]

I thought savathun and xivu were his sisters

[trim grotto]

Yes

He killed them

[wheat latch]

But they're both alive

[chrome fog]

Y’know how Kelgorath came back?

[wheat latch]

Nope

[chrome fog]

Mmmm did we cover Throneworlds yet?

[trim grotto]

OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. This left me trapped deep in my throne. But Oryx my brother made war upon the Ecumene and in that war he described me, for I too am war. Thus I was resurrected.

Throne Worlds are a wonderful thing

[wheat latch]

So it's not a full death, just needs resurrection

[chrome fog]

So here:
Certain Hive can create a little place for themselves in the Ascendent Plane called a Throneworld once they accumulate enough Ascendent Energy

[trim grotto]

Ascendant Hive, they're called

[chrome fog]

This acts as both a personal realm where their will is law as well as a revive point if they are to die in Real Space

So say, we killed Kelgorath in that Seraph mission tons of times

Every time he dies he goes to his Throneworld and then emerges

[wheat latch]

Seems op

[trim grotto]

Well, we don't actually know how Kelgorath returns each time.

But otherwise yes

[chrome fog]

Now Kelgorath is a special case in that he has mastered the returning from a Throneworld, which not even the Hive God siblings could do without a boost in power

[trim grotto]

If you die inside the Throne World, however... you're done. Dead forever.

This is why Oryx died.

His Throne World was inverted from the Ascendant Plane into the Dreadnaught.

[chrome fog]

It’s also how we killed Crota

[wheat latch]

Ohh

[chrome fog]

In his Throneworld, the Blade was above all, which we were able to use against him and kill him with his own blades

[trim grotto]

you're his Throneworld?

[wheat latch]

How are you his throne world

[trim grotto]

haha yeah the law was amusingly literal

[chrome fog]

Oh how I’ve missed the Saladin emote

[wheat latch]

I vaguely remember this

Wasn't that the raid with the really dark room that had like flames light up a sword

[chrome fog]

See, Crota tried to do the thing that would’ve made Throneworlds op, ie “I am immortal in my Throneworld”, but what got him in the end is that he revered the Blade above all else, and so we just. Hit him with his blades

[wheat latch]

How the turn tables

[chrome fog]

Yeah the green flames. In fact, Crota’s appearance in that raid demonstrates what an Ascendent Hive looks like when they’re reforming in their Throneworld (again, I think since I’m not studied fully on the Hive)

[wheat latch]

Smh, go do your homework

[chrome fog]

No I got actual homework to do soon

[trim grotto]

haha, homework

simply work full time like me and have little free time

[chrome fog]

I got uni to do

Plus I’m going to grill training today

Fast food you monster

[wheat latch]

Was his nightmare that we fought in bl as strong as from the raid?

Or it was shadowkeep sorry

[chrome fog]

Shadowkeep

[little gorge]

real homework vs reading the books of sorrow

[chrome fog]

And probably, considering we keep beating his ass in Dares

[little gorge]

I'd pick books of sorrow tbh

[chrome fog]

Also these are actual alternate Crotas from other universes/timelines/whatever

So yeah

Easy sweep

[wheat latch]

Dude is the first to have a negative kd

[chrome fog]

Eh, considering he slaughtered hordes of Guardians during the Great Disaster, I would say his K/d is surviving a bit

[wheat latch]

How'd he kill them fully

[chrome fog]

Big Sword

[wheat latch]

Fair enough

Did it just drain them of light as well

Or just messed their body up so much that their ghost gave up

[chrome fog]

again I’m not fully knowledgeable of the Hive but I just know that the Great Disaster was the slaughter of a ton of Guardians trying to take down Crota ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wheat latch]

Sorry lol

Are there any stories of ghosts getting PTSD from seeing their guardian get killed

[chrome fog]

It’s good

[trim grotto]

Not usually, but there are some close examples
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-rez-for-the-weary#book-ghost-stories
This is a fan favourite

Honestly all of Ghost Stories is good
Oh, this is a good one, too
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/challenger-shell

[wheat latch]

There's totally an audiobook version right

[trim grotto]

Some people do, in fact, do readings of lore entries
Podcast people, YouTubers

Even I've considered it, though I am very sick right now

[wheat latch]

Bruh that's like epic narrator voice wym

Have u heard Lorath from diablo 4? Best narrator ever, you could totally match him lmao

[trim grotto]

I have not
but thank you

here have this
hopefully it embeds properly

i sleep now

[wheat latch]

I have been graced by the epic narrator

[trim grotto]

It is not as emotionally charged as I'd usually go but I am sick and it is late
Faretheewellllll

[paper gorge]

Who saved immaru at the end of WQ Campaign

[trim grotto]

Himself

he just, like
left

[paper gorge]

I always thought he was captured

[exotic cloak]

Our character had enough time to shoot him but plot has to happen

When the traveler left and blinded us he just fly away

A perfect moment to take out a Sniper because he couldn't go very far

[chrome fog]

Well we also know that Savathun is a wellspring of information and that by killing Immaru we lose access to a repository of knowledge

Even if it’s Lightbearer her, she probably is necessary to access her old self’s memories and stuff

[tawdry mauve]

have you considered that we didnt want to shoot immaru?

[exotic cloak]

That makes no sense

[tawdry mauve]

there is benefit in keeping even your enemies alive

it makes perfect sense

we werent going no quarter on them

we stopped the ritual

and captured savathun

"alive"

well potentially alive

which is now coming in handy

[exotic cloak]

In the end, ritual ended Savathun "dead", after a campaing were we crushed 16 ghosts and did everything to stop savathun

In that exact moment, what is the reason for our guardian to not crush Immaru

[tawdry mauve]

yeah because we dont care about some random hive guardians and their ghosts

we care about savathun

we stopped her

we won

[exotic cloak]

Ghost of Savathun and a guy that was also causing problems and leading operations of the lucid hive

[tawdry mauve]

immaru has no way of getting her back without us doing something

[exotic cloak]

and still does

[tawdry mauve]

even if we finished immaru

someone else would lead the lucent hive

[exotic cloak]

So what is the difference between killing him and not

[tawdry mauve]

let me remind you that immaru is not regarded in positive light amongst the lucent brood

[tawdry mauve]

because we can now bring savathun back to help us against the witness

there was no point in killing him

we captured savathun

[exotic cloak]

After 5 season and 1 dlc

[tawdry mauve]

ok????

0 correlation

she is still going to be useful

[exotic cloak]

There is just no reason to say "Okey imma keep Immaru alive"

[tawdry mauve]

yes there is

because we want to potential use savathun

for something

[exotic cloak]

Now, yes, at then, no

[tawdry mauve]

sometimes it helps to think ahead

if everything was done irrationaly or impulsively we wouldnt have anyone to assist us against the witness now

but we do

because we made the right choice

and let immaru leave

[exotic cloak]

Look, I know exactly why Immaru is alive, plot reasons is normal. But at that moment there was simply no logical reason, and my problem is not that we didn't kill him, it's that he was in front of us and we didn't

I don't know about you but my guardian at that moment seemed stupid, because Immaru also kept causing problems after that

Just not showing him would have been enough lol

[tawdry mauve]

well if it makes you feel better

your guardian is the same as everyone elses guardian

the young wolf

so he was collectively "stupid"

[exotic cloak]

I know

[chrome fog]

We need Immaru alive to bring back Savathun, who herself is a valuable asset

Again

She has all the info her past self told her Right Hand and Immaru to tell her as well as the Memory thing

[exotic cloak]

I guess you all are right but seriously Young Wolf looks like an idiot in that cinematic, especially because he's aiming at him

[chrome fog]

We crushed tons of Hive Ghosts to get there, Immaru knows what we could do to him after we killed him

[grand jungle]

Apparently abominations are dregs ?

[fiery copper]

Doesn't surprise me, seeing how ogres are actually Thralls

[grand jungle]

oh??

[ember storm]

well they're docked, so maybe

though i'd really just chalk it up to bungie being lazy with one model

there's no reason that eliksni with more than two arms couldn't be abominations

[grand jungle]

i thnik cool tho

[ember storm]

that's just what abominations and screebs are

scorn who got so bloated with dark ether their body mutates or just becomes a mass of exploding boils

[chrome fog]

Barely held together masses of eliksni flesh

[tawdry mauve]

actually those are just abominations

sceebs are scorn that have been revived too many times with the dark ether

causing them to effectively "overload"

its basically the breaking point and afterwards i dont think they can be revived anymore

[urban scaffold]

So what's the lore on our guardian's armor? Who makes the armor, are there protocols with armor on who can wear what pieces, how do our guardians even get the armor lore wise?

Are there manufacturers or something?

I'm not even talking exotic armor, just our standard gear we wear

[dim minnow]

there are legendary armor sets made by specific weapons foundries like the Spire of the Watcher armor which is made by Tex Mechanica

there is also a lot of faction-specific armor made by those factions

liek the crucible armor or the New Monarchy armor

the armor we start out with when we are first rezzed is fabricated by our ghost using surrounding matter

[dim minnow]

I wonder if our ghost uses the same process to make more advanced armor like raid armor using materials we gather there

[safe galleon]

Would they even need specific materials??? Can't they convert stuff anyway

[chrome fog]

For the raid armors specifically

It would somewhat explain the Hakke armor in Duality, as they might use their Ghostsight to pull materials and Duality being a weird mind scape could hold memory of the other excursions into the dungeon

[quartz ledge]

okay about a whole day late

but like

why does everyone call him young wolf, i know osiris does, and i know its a title but like

we have so many other titles

why just young wolf

[smoky rose]

Because that’s our canon title from the D1 rise of iron campaign

[quartz ledge]

im aware we got called it at one point but

literally all the titles are canon

we see that in bastion quest

when s14 lists off what people called us

[chrome fog]

Young Wolf is how the Guardian gets referred to in-universe aside from “The Guardian”

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[chrome fog]

Aw they replaced the guardian on the mini

[empty fern]

Aw

[trim grotto]

Ah, that was Sinkento's addition.

Probably won't return, given that.

[quartz ledge]

watch the end of corridors of time

or not quite the end

but the end of the actual corridors part

with s14's speech

[chrome fog]

It’s just one of many titles

[quartz ledge]

im aware

[chrome fog]

It’s whatever

[real ingot]

Young Wolf is the common name

[quartz ledge]

i was just confused as to why nobody uses other titles

i feel like i only ever see people mention young wold

[real ingot]

Young Wolf represents them the best I guess

[trim grotto]

Young Wolf is fairly universal.

[chrome fog]

Most common reference to the Guardian other than… Guardian

[trim grotto]

Tim (Gender neutral)

[fiery copper]

The guardian's canon name is clearly Greg, as stated by Datto in [that one jez video idk I think it was them doing the new dungeon]

[dim minnow]

Tim (Derogatory)

[real ingot]

Tim (Tim)

[safe galleon]

so like, if ghosts are at full liberty to leave their guardians, and drifter openly distrusted his, is there any particular reason that they stuck around with him? what did they see in him to take it for as long as they did?

i'm guessing self preservation, but

[trim grotto]

Well, Ghosts generally... believe in their partners.

"Just make sure it works," it said.

So I began, sparks flyin' around me as I cut into its armor. If I died to the cold before I finished, all would be lost. It spoke over the din of the work.

"Hey. There's always hope. For what it's worth, I'm proud of you." It was the last thing my Ghost ever said, and the last lie it ever told.```

And Drifter's Ghost, for all that Drifter was, still believed in him.

[safe galleon]

fair enough, i guess. does drifter still distrust them, even after the whole, yknow

[trim grotto]

He hasn't mentioned it in quite some time. But last we heard, yes.

[safe galleon]

is him being skeptical of his ghost just a principle thing, or is there an actual reason for it? like, did they cross him somehow, or is he just distrustful/paranoid in general

[trim grotto]

Mostly the latter. He was always distrustful, and it was cemented by seeing how people acted during the Dark Ages. The people he saw killed.
He never trusted the Traveler, saw Ghosts as agents of it serving their own interests, not ours.

[exotic cloak]

Oh that's where that guy was talking the other day when he showed a fanmade animation

[trim grotto]

Ah, yes.
https://youtu.be/KaSJ4XvBqlI

[exotic cloak]

The same guy make other one, both are pretty cool

[trim grotto]

He's made more than two

Quite a number now actually

[exotic cloak]

Oh

[little gorge]

"there is no destiny" what game am i reading this from then silly

[pine lion]

They forgot Brother Slayer

[raven glen]

Tbh i keep asking myself how is a fight with witness gonna go cus lore wise power wise witness is like definitely beyond out level and is beyond powerful and tbh idek what level of power we be considered. I feel like witness is universal powerful or even more while our Gaurdian is probably just planetary powerful which makes me believe are we gonna get some God like power to fend him off or we just fight him as we are but something Godlike weakens him so much we beat him like traveler weakens him. Or in most games or shows the witness basically dies by making it absorb tooo much power he explodes lol idek tbh goofy ass theories of mine i just don’t know how bungie gonna do this unless they nerf him a lot cus they already made him extremely powerful with that instant kill attack he did he can easily do that to us so i wonder how we gonna approach basic death himself

[raven glen]

Cus ghost vented 😔… imposer amugost

[raven glen]

So ghost have souls? Or i still wonder if they feel emotions or wat causes them to feel cus during forsaken our ghost did have a emo depression phase

[chrome fog]

They are beings unto themselves

They can make conscious decisions

Many of those who rezzed warlords chose to walk away from their ward to prevent them from causing any more damage

[trim grotto]

Ghosts are people too. Just, small, and sort of artificial.
Souls, though, is an interesting topic. I would posit that a "soul", in Destiny, is a manifestation of consciousness, which is why AI can fall under that bracket. So, by that definition, yes, in a way.

[raven glen]

But makes me think if they came from traveler the traveler can control them unless they can decide who to follow without there creator

[trim grotto]

The Traveler can take control in very rare and extraordinary situations, but it has almost never done so. They are their own people and make their own choices.

That's sort of the Traveler's shtick. Freedom of choice, freedom of will.

[raven glen]

Which then leads to ig why witness hates it so much in a way

[trim grotto]

In a manner of speaking. The Witness desires purpose to a chaotic and meaningless universe. The Traveler spreads the chaos of life and does not dictate purpose.

[chrome fog]

The Traveler is accepting of the meaningless nature of the universe, in fact it embraces it to see what meanings life in the universe make for themselves; unfortunately the Witness species wanted to have a clear defined purpose to life and are hellbent on shaping reality to how they believe it should

[chrome fog]

Something will work out

Either we get raise to their power level or we do as we’ve always done and cripple them before finishing them off

[green cobalt]

probably some "erm actually in this space the witness is just normal" shenanigans

wherever that portal goes

[chrome fog]

Might be a mechanic of “rewrite reality so that the Witness is Vulnerable”

That’d be neat

[green cobalt]

ehh

[chrome fog]

It is a weird dimension related or similar to the Akashic Records and the Witness’ goal is to rewrite reality to fit what it thinks it should be

[slim elk]

Two potential ways it could go is finding a way to splinter all the "souls" from the Witness gestalt entity. Kill it by death of a thousand cuts..

Or straight up replicating it's creation and having a being on relatively equal ground be able to fight it

[hearty dew]

okay

imagine every single guardian

[slim elk]

Nah.
If anyone it would be Neomuna's population actually having a point to exist

[grand jungle]

Neat ac cowl lore

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=293gPhv_dks&pp=ygUaZGVzdGlueSAyIHZlaWwgY29udGFpbm1lbnQ%3D

Cloudark origin confirmed (not that was a suprise)...
But also indicates Maya was still active on Neomuna for some time..

[past tree]

any known thing about those large buildings outside of tower? down the city? they have some special stuff? I count 4 there front of zavala

[smoky rose]

Other towers

[past tree]

Multiverse each one have zavala and others

[chrome fog]

Last City is big, why wouldn’t it have other Towers?

There’s a major event called Six Fronts where the different sides of the city were under siege

[safe galleon]

why DID it intervene in the case of rhulk, anyway? i recall it detonated a ghost he wanted to claim, but he'd have to die to be a guardian. it HAD to be the fear that he would claim it as his own, since we know he killed plenty of other ghosts from his dialogue

but like, A. he would have had to have died and B. if he DID die for the sole purpose of the ghost rezzing him, the ghost could just like, choose not to resurrect him after

[real ingot]

As shown by Ghaul

You can to a degree take the light

Temporarily

You explode afterwards

[smoky rose]

*the traveler explodes you

[chrome fog]

Traveler said no breaking rules and exploded it in his face

[slim elk]

Granted..
Seems the Witness has found a way around it

[ember storm]

because that wasn’t his plan

he was just going to take the ghost and do horrible shit to it for the sake of research

you notice he’s literally got spliced corpses hung up as decorations and sacrificed countless scorn trying to make the caretaker literally just because he could

the traveler killing that ghost was a mercy

[slim elk]

That logic fails when you remember all the ghosts the Hive have tortured over the years

Including as recent as Savathuns antics on Titan

[ember storm]

I shouldn’t have to mention that the situations between random hive experiments and a literal disciple of the witness are different

also the most important part is that Rhulk used the same logic as Ghaul did

he declared himself worthy of the light

he wasn’t going to be chosen

he chose himself

hive experiments literally just harvest light

[slim elk]

Yep
So shows the Traveler would only do a "mercy kill" when itself is under potential threat

[ember storm]

I’m not entering a morality discussion

[slim elk]

Not going that way lol
Pointing out the implication that Disciple-Ghaul can actually have a basis to pull success in said efforts