📚lore-discussion

[green cobalt]

speaking of Xivu, wouldn't she hate lucent hive? and if so was it her plan to "revive" Oryx despite that or was it Immaru's call (or someone elses idk)

[dim minnow]

Ghosts of the Deep was likely not related to Xivu Arath

[safe galleon]

they get to alter their size in their throne world, so i'm assuming he did this in king's fall for a last-ditch effort power boost

[grand jungle]

Definitely does make him look good

[smoky rose]

Ghosts of the Deep was very much lucent hive forces

[green cobalt]

yeah

[smoky rose]

The ship we board is Lucent in architecture and the first boss is quite literally the shield of savathun

[green cobalt]

but i don't really know the extent of the lucent hive

the first boss is quite literally the shield of savathun
true

[smoky rose]

Formerly the sword of oryx iirc

[safe galleon]

as for why savathun didn't do this, here are both reasons

lore - may or may not have to do with the nature of her throne world being powered by the wellspring, or maybe she just didn't want to do this because her nature is cunning rather than brute force

gameplay - to have a 'giant' boss battle that works, you usually need to have some kind of restriction on their movement (ex. oryx being restricted to 5 positions around the room, riven being restricted to basically just her head showing) to prevent jankiness, and they usually require unique encounter design to account for their scale. since the fight with savathun was meant to be a one-on-one, and campaign bosses generally avoid mechanics, her being giant like oryx wouldn't fit

[green cobalt]

i figured in my mind that the lore pickups in the dungeon are all from Xivu so maybe she wanted a way to bring Oryx back or something

[safe galleon]

and we don't actually know if xivu will or will not do this yet cos i'm not sure she's even physically appeared???

[dim minnow]

she would not want to bring him back

[green cobalt]

yeah

made sense in my head

[smoky rose]

The lore bits are just Xivu having a meltdown like Toland did

[green cobalt]

so ig it's just Immaru's orders, do we even know why?

[safe galleon]

xivu misses(?) oryx, but she doesn't want him back, since, you know

it kinda uh

goes against the whole

[green cobalt]

yea

[safe galleon]

sword logic thing

that their species operates on

[green cobalt]

blasphemy

[safe galleon]

to her, bringing him back would probably be like an insult, or 'tarnishing' him in a way

or thats how i read it lol

[safe galleon]

i mean, a guardian the size of oryx would be pretty cool i think

[limpid flower]

what ever happened to nezerac’s relics from plunder

what did we end up doing with them

[safe galleon]

they were milked to make darkness tea

[green cobalt]

we made epic Nezcafé with them and fed it to Osiris

[limpid flower]

oh was that literally all

[safe galleon]

and given to osiris

yes

[limpid flower]

that’s boring af

[safe galleon]

yeah

[limpid flower]

so without them saint and osiris wouldn’t have kissed

[green cobalt]

average filler seasonal story

[limpid flower]

crazy

[green cobalt]

surely they had kissed before

[limpid flower]

not that we know of 😉

[safe galleon]

arent they like

married(???)

or as close to it as you can get in like a post apocalyptic earth ig

[limpid flower]

i think they’re just together

idk if they’re married

[trim grotto]

Pretty much.

There isn't an official recognition of their relationship that I'm aware of.

Official as in legal, that is.

[safe galleon]

is marriage even a thing in the d2 universe

[smoky rose]

I dunno

Society totally collapsed

Anyways looking forward to Sav vs (presumably) Xivu arath next season

At least hoping we get to see what Xivu’s broods look like properly

@trim grotto isn’t the only implication of Vex combat units from chronicon or something

[outer dragon]

So it has been a minute since I ran Lightblade. We don't crush his ghost do we?

That would be pretty dope to have him fight along side us against Kelgorath

[green cobalt]

we don't

[outer dragon]

Nice

[green cobalt]

his ghost doesn't even show up

[smoky rose]

His ghost dipped out immediately like Immaru

Really looking forward to next season

Especially the first mission because I'm sure we are gonna have a hard chat with Immaru

[empty fern]

Watch mara weasel herself in there to do the talking

[trim grotto]

Direct quote from Calus, really. And an interpretation of the Books of Sorrow. But no actual evidence, no.

[outer dragon]

Don't Harpies existing show there are possible Vex units we are not aware of?

[trim grotto]

Wyverns. Yes, that's true. But we don't have any information on Warrior Vex actually existing. We don't even have any lore on Wyverns past the fact that we fight them.

[outer dragon]

Thats what i meant yeah

We need more Vex Lore damn it

[trim grotto]

It is for the Hive, surprisingly enough.

[real ingot]

I can't imagine hive marriges are nothing but bloodbaths

[meager belfry]

Is there a reason as to why the traveler gave the light to humanity in particular and not the Eliksni before us?

And was it for like some massive set up for a showdown with the witness?

[ember storm]

if unveiling is to be believed, the traveler’s previous attempts at proving its point just failed

the traveler was just with humanity when the final argument was made

there wasn’t a specific reason

although the guilt from abandoning the Eliksni is probably what attributed to a change in strategy

[meager belfry]

So it was right place right time? Huh. Cool thanks

[smoky rose]

Yeah

We were where the Traveler made the wager

[vocal nebula]

We gotta think, the vex can go back in time, and who is their greatest enemy? Us, the guardians. Couldn’t they just go back to a time before the golden age and slaughter every human?

[peak coral]

good idea actually

[vocal nebula]

They should technically be infinite in number

So just flood the earth with them seeing as they don’t got the tech to deal with the the vex

[real ingot]

They don't change time they view perfect simulations

find the perfect future where they win

do what they can to achieve it

[vocal nebula]

Damn that sucks

[real ingot]

Vault of Glass remains the only thing they've ever changed time inside

[sick yew]

Vex timetravel is a bit wonky

[vocal nebula]

We see how they failed during CoO

[sick yew]

Corridors of Time?

[vocal nebula]

Fair

[sick yew]

[vocal nebula]

There are more instances

[real ingot]

Mercury time travel is best ignored

[sick yew]

Lmfao

[real ingot]

since I can't make sense of whatever it is

[vocal nebula]

But I feel like at the end of the day, the vex will eventually win

[sick yew]

Yes

[real ingot]

Perfect sims with millions of realities

all colliding to be manipulated

Sundial was used in select cases for a reason

[sick yew]

The whole shit with us finding our grave really has a lot less impact than people act like

[ember storm]

that was just the sundial forcing time itself into a physical form we could walk through

Osiris just used a vex gate as the door

[sick yew]

Because either its just one of trillions of realities where we eventually die
Or its set in stone making free will not a thing and going directly against what Pracausality is

[ember storm]

I mean the entire point of dawn was us going against the natural flow of time to defy death

seeing our grave really isn’t a big deal

[vocal nebula]

Can’t lie, I hated that they brought saint back

[ember storm]

especially considering it tries defining Bastion as our favorite weapon ever

[vocal nebula]

Wish he just stayed a legend

[sick yew]

He is a living legend now

[ember storm]

I would have to disagree

[sick yew]

Bro is one of the best characters in the current narrative

[vocal nebula]

That’s because most characters are shit 🗿

[sick yew]

Some stand out as very well written

[ember storm]

example?

[sick yew]

Saint being one of them for sure

Eversince season of Splicer he has been very very well implemented

This season they again made him a great side character

[real ingot]

Xivu has been great at getting some character's development

[sick yew]

Took her long enough but yeah

[real ingot]

I mean even before this season she was great with what she represented

[ember storm]

I mean she was barely even an active character up until a few months ago

[real ingot]

As I said

[vocal nebula]

Osiris 🗿

[real ingot]

what she represents

[sick yew]

How is Orsiris a bad character?

[real ingot]

She's a wall you can brute force

[real ingot]

he isn't

[sick yew]

Agreed

[real ingot]

Osiris is fine

[sick yew]

People will go and say he was annoying in Lightfall when that was the entire god damn point

[real ingot]

His arc in LF could've been a bit better paced

but it was fine

[vocal nebula]

Most annoying character in light fall second only to nimbus

[sick yew]

THAT WAS THE POINT

[real ingot]

"But he's to fast to rush into things"

[sick yew]

He was supposed to come off as such

[real ingot]

literally the whole point

yeah

[ember storm]

bad character is when they aren’t a perfectly content yes-man, I guess

[real ingot]

He has knowledge of an artifact that if the Witness gains brings forth the end

Yeah anyone would wanna retrieve it

[ember storm]

this is like people saying Zavala is a bad character for not deciding to declare total war on the prince of the awoken

[vocal nebula]

He was supposed to be annoying?

[sick yew]

Osiris has still not come to terms with being lightless
So he does the next best thing which is trying to tell us how to do it like he would while failing to understand thats just not whats most effective

[ember storm]

obviously?

[sick yew]

Yes

[ember storm]

did you not remember the opening of seraph

[vocal nebula]

Oh shit I didn’t know

[vocal nebula]

Nah stopped playing before they brought the seasonal shit

[ember storm]

he’s desperate to try and make up for, y’know

being possessed by a hive god

[sick yew]

The struggle of being Lightless is very heavy on Osiris since now cant do what he used to do

[vocal nebula]

He wasn’t possessed, he was replaced wasn’t JEV

[ember storm]

that was literally his only involvement for like 4 years

[ember storm]

he was

[real ingot]

possessed

[sick yew]

He tries his hardest to both redeem himself and do what he thinks is right which sadly he can now only do by telling us what we should be up to

[ember storm]

the only time a swap happened was right at the beginning of lost

[real ingot]

he saw everything but couldn't do anything

[ember storm]

Savathun was wearing his body like a suit prior

[real ingot]

he was stuck as Savathun tormented him

[vocal nebula]

Imagine if we didn’t help him 💀

[vocal nebula]

And sagira is dead lmao

Couldn’t be me

[ember storm]

sounds like pretty two massive things to want to try and make up for

[real ingot]

Keep in mind Osiris has been searching for Neomuna since he woke up

he knows it's important

desperate to find why

[vocal nebula]

Yeh he saw moth mommy’s memories right?

[real ingot]

not all

[ember storm]

their minds were melded together when she possessed him

[real ingot]

specifically her knowledge of Neomuna it seems

[vocal nebula]

That’s what I meant

[ember storm]

the reason he was in that coma was because he was just left in the depths of his own mind with Savathun’s stuff still stuck around

we used patented nezarec juice to clear it all up

[real ingot]

Osiris went to Rasputin likely because of Nefele being something we learnt of

Rasputin after he died gave us the last thing we needed to know

The Veil is on Neomuna

[vocal nebula]

Then him and saint kiss

[vocal nebula]

Crazy how they had to kill Rasputin because he was too OP

[ember storm]

on the contrary really

[real ingot]

Xivu outplayed him

[ember storm]

Rasputin wouldn’t be adding much in the current narrative

his first and only attempt at fighting the witness and he was just immediately beaten

I don’t know what he’d really be doing

they just had to remove the clutter

[vocal nebula]

I wanna see war mommy appear

The last hive god to kill

[ember storm]

it’s what they’ve been doing for a while

[green cobalt]

we kill Xivu and then bring him back and win

[vocal nebula]

Crazy how we have the rez moth mommy but I think they would probably turn on us after

The hive evolved to only live off combat if I’m correct

Blood tide and all that

[real ingot]

Savathun went against that

[green cobalt]

yea

[real ingot]

She betrayed the sword logic

[vocal nebula]

Even her soldiers?

[green cobalt]

she got her worm exorcised or some shit and gained the light

[real ingot]

the entire point of the exorcism was to escape it

[vocal nebula]

Yeh but then her soldiers?

[green cobalt]

[real ingot]

joined her

[vocal nebula]

Which killed her

[green cobalt]

built different

[real ingot]

A gamble

remove the worm

[ember storm]

that was the plan

[real ingot]

possibly gain the light

[vocal nebula]

But how could the soldiers betray the sword logic

[ember storm]

Immaru and Savathun’s right hand were literally sitting on the sidelines

[vocal nebula]

Did they just say “nah I’m not with that shit”

[ember storm]

did you like

[real ingot]

Light had some effect on the worms

[ember storm]

forget what Nokris did

[vocal nebula]

Nah

[ember storm]

he had an entire army of heretics

[vocal nebula]

Yeh but he’s a necrommancer

[ember storm]

which is quite clearly shunned a disapproved

[vocal nebula]

That doesn’t stop them from killing

[ember storm]

Oryx disowned him and destroyed every single evidence he existed in recorded history

[green cobalt]

also Simmumah was sent to resurrect Oryx

[ember storm]

so?

[vocal nebula]

Which makes sense

[ember storm]

Oryx’s last words spoken to literally anyone was “I am always glad to die”

[green cobalt]

so nothing

[vocal nebula]

When you have no lease

[ember storm]

if he retained his memories when being resurrected he’d be severely pissed

[vocal nebula]

You resort or drastic measures

[vocal nebula]

My name is byf?

[real ingot]

It's Oryx

[ember storm]

fuck byf

[vocal nebula]

BLASPHEMY

[real ingot]

the biggest fanatic for sword logic out there

It doesn't matter if it's drastic measures

[vocal nebula]

Byf is our lore lord and savior

[ember storm]

Oryx literally set up a system to where his successor would kill him and get a cool ass weapon out of it using his own heart as a battery

he loved the fuck out of sword logic

everything Savathun and her brood are doing is blasphemy

[vocal nebula]

lil bro wanted to be the witness so bad

[real ingot]

Witness and Oryx wouldn’t agree on what exactly the end goal is

Witness simply wishes for the end

[vocal nebula]

But my main lore question is, what happened to the people that didn’t want to join the sacrifice to make the witness

[real ingot]

Oryx believes that the end can only be achieved by pure strength

[vocal nebula]

He was needed for his strength so the witness was probably letting him have his own phantasy

[real ingot]

Not needed

A tool

A helpful one

[vocal nebula]

Yeh a tool

A tool that does the job right

[real ingot]

The hive were originally just a way of eliminating shit on fundament

Oryx just created the tithe system which pushed them further

[vocal nebula]

Pyramid scheme baby

Buy in hierarchy, who’s above? The wizard or the ogre?

[real ingot]

Ogre's are pretty much absent

just experiments

barely sentient

[vocal nebula]

Well damn

Then it’s thralls to acolytes to knights to wizards to oryx?

[green cobalt]

one's basically big guy and the other is a wizard i wonder who's above who

[vocal nebula]

Who knows

Btw how did oryx do his power explosion that recked the awoken fleet?

[real ingot]

Thralls can be cursed to become cursed thralls/ogres

They can also become Acolyte

Acolytes become either Wizards/Knights

when either become strong enough they become Ascendant Hive

above them are the Hive Demi-gods

And then Xivu and Savathun

before TTK himself Oryx

[velvet flax]

I wouldnt necessarily say Oryx was above Xivu and Savathun, each of them as at the top of their respective broods and sub-broods

and then the Worm Gods were above them

[real ingot]

considering the way Xivu speaks of the TTK as a title and how she refers to Oryx

safe to say he was the top dog

Worm Gods also weren't seen as superior in the eyes of the hive

simply a spiritual entity if I had to guess

to them they were simply there to commune with what they saw as their actual god

The Deep

[vocal nebula]

Yes but they have to give the blood tide to oryx at the end of the day

[grizzled zinc]

“I’d cast 6 supers in a row then hit the gritty” - osiris trying to teach since he can no longer do.

[royal portal]

I feel like an individual with 100s of thousands of years of ”collective” experience would react better to this. is it confirmed he was 100% aware all the time or stuck in his previous meditative states where he tried to reach the point

[royal portal]

literally just recaps the lore

[real ingot]

idk man watching your identity be stolen as you're forced to watch as they betray everyone you know has an effect no matter the age

especially after he lost Sagira

[royal portal]

he could singlegandedly evaporate all physical threats and nonwitness enemies while we focus on them.
The other enemies havent disappeared and arent less threatening. he had a narrative seat that they took away because they dont want to reveal any of his old toys

[ember storm]

the fuck are you talking about

[royal portal]

rasputin wasnt clutter

[real ingot]

man does not understand Xivu

[royal portal]

my fault gang💀

[ember storm]

all Rasputin really was for a while was a loose end

Seraph was just tying the knot

he really wouldn’t contribute much

[real ingot]

He had info and that was the last he could give us

[royal portal]

I dont question the ingame explanation. this is all outside the lore opinion

[ember storm]

this is my lore opinion

Rasputin wouldn’t contribute anything in a war with the Witness

[real ingot]

Rasputin is null when Xivu or the Witness are involved

he can't effect them

[ember storm]

seraph showed he can be easily exploited by our enemies in tons of ways

actually everything Rasputin related he’s been taken advantage of

[green cobalt]

"our enemies" being 2 fellas

[ember storm]

rasputin was just the answer to a question that’s not particularly relevant in the current day and age

[royal portal]

2 big factions made up of the other absorbed parts of previous factions

[green cobalt]

if you count 2 entities as 2 factions sure

[royal portal]

im talking shadow legion and house salvation

[ember storm]

the taken aren’t a faction

[royal portal]

nonwitness enemies

[ember storm]

They’re just an extension of the thing ordering them around

which would be the witness and Xivu

[green cobalt]

the shadow legion and house salvation are not the 2 fellas mentioned

[ember storm]

it was what I was referring to

you’re the one who specified “2”

every single thing that’s happened with Rasputin was him and his tech being exploited by our enemies

[green cobalt]

everything can be narrowed down to the witness and Xivu

[royal portal]

destiny shouldnt have taken a more personal view for the story

🫰

[ember storm]

I don’t know what that means

[royal portal]

tldr xivus voice ingame doesnt match with my overblown fantasy of a wargod and we shouldnt have ever conversed with rasputin as a H&M mannequin

[green cobalt]

at that point Rasputin was just using Clovis' voice module

[royal portal]

(personal opinion)

[ember storm]

I really wouldn’t like having my time wasted with Ana just regurgitating whatever Rasputin says

[royal portal]

Yes. I would have preferred literal text on screen or T Pains voicebox over that

[green cobalt]

no

[ember storm]

at that point why even bother with the exo body

[royal portal]

I didnt want him to be in an exo body

[green cobalt]

yeah we weren't gonna rebuild his entire state of the art Mars facility just to hear him speak in backwards russian, an exo body and clovis' voice module is enough

[royal portal]

Im tired of humanizing characters😔

[real ingot]

Congrats Nezarec exists

Go enjoy him

[ember storm]

literally the entire point of Rasputin was his growth into something more than a simple weapon

[real ingot]

Man’s insane

[ember storm]

his entire existence has been “humanization”

[green cobalt]

"more than a weapon" seasonal story quest reference

[green cobalt]

rasputin even in his original state liked classical music, too human for you though i guess

[ember storm]

speaker saying the word destiny in the opening cutscene

[green cobalt]

[royal portal]

Im a raspo and cally superfan. I love their stories. I literally only have a problem with talking to him in english, in physically humanoid form

server didnt let me say calus sy💀

[green cobalt]

i'm a raspy superfan and i liked him more in the exo frame (i'm better)

[royal portal]

only 2 kinds of people

Octa mote of light collector grindset speaker
lies to the last people left for the highest social standing. literally gives advice throughout his life which condenses to ”it is what it is”. last words tell someone to end himself. dies to 3 feet drop.

[trim grotto]

It's worth noting that he did hear the Traveler, but had to interpret its garbled cryptic coma dreams.
Also, he was probably at least a couple of centuries old.

[ember storm]

you can very clearly hear Consul kill him

also one of the cutscene opens with speaker being recovering from being shocked so he was actively being tortured

[royal portal]

im shocked😟

[wheat latch]

Who exactly was shayura, all I really know is they killed lots of people

And are they still alive? I guess I just assumed they were dead

[tawdry mauve]

they are alive and in prison afaik

they effectively went around killing anyone using darkness powers like stasis

[chrome fog]

This was early Beyond Light, so there was still division within the Guardian populace about the use of Darkness

Shayura had particularly bad PTSD from exploring either Old Chicago or the Manhattan Zone place, and seeing Guardians use Darkness made her snap a bit

Her fireteam members Reed-7 and Aisha tried to support her even when she cracked and went on a Guardian killing spree, even getting limited probation once the Hidden - or was it that other military police group in the Vanguard - captured Shayura

Prior to Lightfall, her team was just making progress with dealing with her PTSD but then Reed-7 died in the intro scene, I believe he was the Titan whose Ghost we see get salami-sliced

[chrome fog]

Why did I scroll up

[ember storm]

welcome

[chrome fog]

How are they living up to their nickname

[ember storm]

you missed gen chat a bit ago

[chrome fog]

Gen-chat gen-chat or them coming into here?

Also what’d I miss

[ember storm]

gen chat gen chat

traveler is evil and ahamkara didn’t deserve to die, mainly

also Savathun was ok morally?

[chrome fog]

Aaaaaaaaauuuuuuuggggghhhhh

[wheat latch]

That's actually sad. I was under the impression she just went on a rampage without reason, had no clue abt the ptsd

[chrome fog]

She should have a page on Ishtar, it has more specifics on where and what happened

A very good introspection into the moral quandaries of using Darkness from someone that used to believe wholesale that Darkness is Evil

[ember storm]

she plays trials

I think she should suffer

[chrome fog]

It should also serve as a good explanation to any players still being “OuGh DaRknEsS bAD” why no, it’s not simply that

[ember storm]

i mean there’s a dlc dedicated to that

[chrome fog]

Hell, Aisha I think is the Hunter that, during Splicer, used her Super to defend a single Eliksni from an angry mob

[ember storm]

I don’t really know anybody who’d read Shayura lore without knowing stasis first

[chrome fog]

Yeah but this is Destiny players we’re talking about. Sometimes you need to hammer in the nail a bit more for it to stick, to state it metaphorically.

[wheat latch]

My understanding is that darkness is just a form of any power like the light is, just who uses it that determines the "good" and the "bad"

[chrome fog]

Exactly

And that’s what Bungie is going for, but there are a lot of hardheaded players

ie Gen-Chat

[ember storm]

true

[wheat latch]

The words "dark" and "light" do seem at face value to show good and bad but that's an assumption without the context of d2

[ember storm]

hollow knight fans would disagree

I know there’s a few in this server

[chrome fog]

That’s the framing for D1, but D2 is them working to expand on the universe and make it much more nuanced

[chrome fog]

Very simple “Light is corrupted image of perfection, Darkness is not much better but whatever, it’s bug-eat-but world”

[ember storm]

personally I think hollow knight does it well because they both just suck ass

whenever I get around to the webcomic I’m totally going to make that’s probably going to be apart of it

[chrome fog]

I like the insistence that they’re both eldritch forces uplifting bugs to have willing servants

[chrome fog]

Can I spoil a bit? Just the general take-away, not any of the events

[ember storm]

spoil what

the webcomic I haven’t made yet?

[chrome fog]

Oh I read it as you hadn’t read the comics for Hollow Knight

There’s a couple short ones

[ember storm]

tuk my beloved

[wheat latch]

Was the blast from the traveler at the witness really supposed to be an attack? Just seemed weak, barely even made it through the ship

To me it seemed like either a desperate attempt or an invitation lol

The latter of which is mostly a joke

[smoky rose]

It’s as much of an attack as you are ever going to get from the traveler

[chrome fog]

Hmmm, I’m wondering something

The blast specifically hit Nezarec’s head, the only remains left

Nezarec is known to be an incorporeal entity, or at the very least transfer his spirit between physical vessels

And I don’t remember the specifics, but in the Cryptarchy server we discussed something about how being able to come back from death might allow glimpses into this Akashic Record place beyond the portal

Maybe the Traveler hit Nezarec specifically to give us that hint on how to get into the portal before the Witness took her ‘Pale Heart’, knowing she couldn’t fully fight back

[slim elk]

Your thinking it might connect to the thaunatonauts?
There's something to their logic given what happened when cayde tried it.. remembering the "darkness" toying with him

Same way with what Vance had been messing with the Trials and the "song notes" that were occurring with each guardian death

[chrome fog]

I think there was a piece of Thaunatonauts lore that made that connection clearer, and add the fact that Savathun essentially sponsored Nokris and took his research into necromancy, it makes sense how she would also have similar insights into accessing the Garden

[slim elk]

Mara also has some indicator of it given she tried to.. convince Vance to stop his research

I suspect Bungies going to do a planet return each season..
So if Mercury's next.. all the threads connect

[ember storm]

like a true sponsor, she used him for like 5 minutes before sending him off to die, while still keeping all of his assets for herself

[chrome fog]

Yep

[safe galleon]

hiii did someone say hk

[outer dragon]

The old addage "power corrupts" is wrong and Bungie seems to agree. Power reveals who/what you are

[slim elk]

It is a test of character

Give power and see what someone does with it

[fresh zephyr]

How did Xur and the starhorse get the bosses we killed into dares of eternity?

[slim elk]

Paracausal nonsense

"Space magic"

[smoky rose]

A record of everything lived or died

Would explain Cayde

[chrome fog]

Exactly what I’ve been saying

[hasty jetty]

Anyone listen to veil containment yet?

[chrome fog]

Plus it fits with what we know of the Black Garden and what happened to Joxer; plus the ship with that lore entry basically gives it to us right there: Akashic Revelation

[hasty jetty]

It’s pretty juicy this week

[chrome fog]

Juan is Bungie, he can pull anything from anywhere including the Halo Magnum

[hasty jetty]

Same way drifter gets his enemies, the enigma behind the derelict was a gift from the nine to him

[chrome fog]

Different actually

Juan is just literally all-powerful

[hasty jetty]

Ohh u right

[chrome fog]

Nine gave them a thing they made

As an investment into the Guardians, who might prove useful in not having the universe kill itself on orders of the Witness

[smoky rose]

Yes it is

That's a wild revelation

Nothing super important in context of, like, what the veil is

But definitely crazy

@dim minnow it puts splicer in an entirely different context

[dim minnow]

huh?

[smoky rose]

The Veil log this week

[dim minnow]

ah, gotta listen to it

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=woNYh2TPILA&pp=ygUaZGVzdGlueSAyIHZlaWwgY29udGFpbm1lbnQ%3D

Lakshmi-2 was from Neomuna

And was an imprinted Exo in the same vein as the Giant Clovis head..

According to Esi.. has some of Mayas memories..
Sleeper agent?

By typical Exo naming conventions.. if Lakshmi ever was rebooted and lost memories...
Would be Lakshmi-3

[dim minnow]

so Lakshmi is Maya Sundaresh?

[slim elk]

Or a copy of her

Akin to how Banshee was a copy of Clovis Bray

Lakshmi claimed to be on earth the whole time.. The whole burning of London with the Devils

Means part of her past were fabricated... and the evidence points to Maya behind it

[little gorge]

i feel like bungie just told us the veil log would be about the nature of the veil just so people would stay quiet until they released the cutscene which just implies "yeah it's like the traveller but dark"

[slim elk]

I find it amazing they had all of this planned..
Yet not one mention in the main campaign lol

[little gorge]

honestly i just don't care anymore

[chrome fog]

Cryptarchy debated and have concluded it’s a gestalt consciousness created from the dead Exos - of which Lakshmi-2 was one - as well as Maya’s mind scan. The reason why she can survive this is because there’s another way to mindscan a person without killing them; Clovis admits to such but chooses to go the lethal route because it supposedly maintains more fidelity with the scan

[little gorge]

I've gotten way too tired of hearing the same complaint over and over again about lf

and at least we got a fun mystery to think about

[chrome fog]

I’m thinking it’s a long play to intertwine the mysteries of Neomuna with the inherent - or at least current nature - of the Veil

To hammer into the playerbase‘s head the idea of subtle storytelling

Which I think is deserved from how rancid the community became after Lightfall in spite of Bungie apologizing and trying to make up to them

[smoky rose]

Tbf to the community their apology is "sorry it didn't land, just trust us"

[little gorge]

even if bungie gave us all the lore in that blog post right there people would still hate them

[smoky rose]

Correct because it needed to be in the campaign

[little gorge]

but it wasn't because of various real world issues

just move on

[smoky rose]

It wasn't because of real world issues. They knew what they were doing with the story, they could have had someone record a few lines explaining it when they were recording everything else for lightfall

It was an experiment that did not work

What happens when the seasons are sunset

Do you just drop the cutscene explaining everything for new players at the end of lightfall

[little gorge]

it's going to be in the game

also I'm pretty sure the entire way that lightfall came out wasn't as intended

[smoky rose]

The reason there's so many complaints right now is because the Witness cutscene, while being one of the most impactful in the game's history, wasn't dropped IN lightfall, and everyone who watches it can only wonder why, because that cutscene, even just a small portion of the information in that cutscene, would have fixed the majority of the issues with LF's campaign

[little gorge]

i get that

[hasty jetty]

They had season of the deep and lightfall planned and executed long before lightfall came out. The fact that Zavala has voice lines proves that. Lightfall was mismanaged and nothing else

[little gorge]

what I don't get is why everyone needs to be mad at bungie multiple weeks later because of that cutscene when everyone was begging to get this lore in the first place

[hasty jetty]

Because it’s behind pay walls

[smoky rose]

That too

You buy regular Lightfall (or at least last season) you don't get that key information unless you go look it up on YT or twitter

[hasty jetty]

If you bought lightfall at first and now can’t afford season of the deep right away you miss out on experiencing core story

[little gorge]

honestly as i said in the start i just don't care that much anymore

im just tired of coming to the internet to discuss this game i really like and only seeing constant hate

[hasty jetty]

I feel that way too, but people have the right to voice their opinions and be upset

If people didn’t care they wouldn’t talk about it

So at least people care

[chrome fog]

It's complaints on stuff they already told the community, people whining about the same issues they already addressed

[slim elk]

I doubt it's ever going to go away, as even Season of the Deep feels more like emergency "filling in the holes" if take a look at the whole picture

The reason we are even getting this information is down to "Somehow, Titan has returned" without any explanation how it's back..
This compounded by the Nightmare raid having us access the whole "map room" and potentially they could have an explanation arrived from it

The Veil logs thus far are also indicators of a far more interesting story behind Neomuna with a grand conspiracy behind its government then the plot holed filled and hamfisted events in the Lightfall campaign-Defiance season

(Amanda's death)

[blazing wasp]

The witness likely just unvaunted it like mars

[smoky rose]

It was in the cutscene after first clear of RoN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbhdR0I2aAQ

It left pieces behind

Whether they just popped back in after the Witness went inside or we accidentally freed them via the Macrocosm encounter we don't know

[outer dragon]

So Lakshmi... was she a copy of Maya or just a billboarded exo brought back with Veil Voodoo?

The Veil containment is confusing

[slim elk]

Sleeper agent

Remember Lakshmi claimed she was around for the Devils invading earth

[outer dragon]

I wonder if we are gonna take Lakshmi to the Veil

Or maybe the Hidden will

[frigid sparrow]

sort of both I think?

it takes aspects of Maya (her voice, probably has some of the same goals) and is a part of the future war cult but Lakshmi was seemingly reactivated through the veil

[slim elk]

Esi said Lakshmi had Mayas memories in same log

Per exo naming convention.. never was rebooted. Other would see a 3

[frigid sparrow]

as said before it's sort of a banshee/clovis situation

[dreamy latch]

Who the hell is Maya ( been gone a year ) and wth is going on with the witness , are we winning sons ?

[frigid sparrow]

maya is an ishtar collective researcher who went to neptune to avoid the collapse and is implicated in some super fucked up stuff with the veil

[slim elk]

Here's the fun part
Neomuna was adamant they never had any exos after the initial ones died
Maya just proved that wrong, yet Lakshmi has been on earth for multiple centuries

[frigid sparrow]

the witness is one of the traveler's chosen races, but they strove for more, strove for meaning in a meaningless life. they sought out the darkness in the form of the veil, saw that it led to a "final shape" being the meaning of the universe, but the traveler relented and ran away. the witness' race then did some crazy darkness magic shit and transformed into a singular being comprised of all their people, becoming the witness

and we're not winning but we will win in the end because plot

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
Cryptarchy debated and have concluded it’s a gestalt consciousness created from the dead Exos - of which Lakshmi-2 was one - as well as Maya’s mind scan. The reason why she can survive this is because there’s another way to mindscan a person without killing them; Clovis admits to such but chooses to go the lethal route because it supposedly maintains more fidelity with the scan

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jul 11, 2023, 6:58 PM

[chrome fog]

It seems more likely that she was sent to Earth from Neomuna, though we don’t know the implications of such yet

Remember how the other week Maya wanted to do the same ritual as the Witness? She did so using the dead Exos that blue-screened around the Veil - one of which was Lakshmi-2 - and a mindscan of Maya, or a sim copy who knows

Both is possible

As in they are options they can take

[frigid sparrow]

I wonder what the end goal was there- there's a major difference with the exos literally being braindead whereas the witness was born of the consciousnesses of an entire race

[slim elk]

Proof of concept is my guess

Test it on subjects who can't resist and have lower count.. then move on to higher population

An ignorant and complacent population who has no idea what's going on nor understands what exactly they are utilizing
The Cloudark

[chrome fog]

Consider how their bodies looked all shriveled and in a fetal position

Not to mention how much of the old Darkness is centered around killing and death; worms give power through consistent homocide

And considering this is at the beginning of Neomuna and we don’t have any major incidents of people in the CloudArk spontaneously dying or having something strange happen to them until recently (and even such instance being caused by either the Vex or Nezarec), this is the only instance of the CloudArk (supposedly) being utilized in such a fashion

[slim elk]

Indeed
But someone's clearly took an eraser to Neomunas history books

After all, ask yourself how Lakshmi ended up on earth if she was created on Neomuna

[chrome fog]

[slim elk]

Neomuna self isolated and only publicly admitted interaction with earth resulted in a Cloudstrider purging any info that could lead to them after seeing Warlords

They wouldn't let Lakshmi be free to leave after going to such lengths
And per exo naming.. she never was rebooted (and thus lost Neomunas location)

Leaves the most logical action... as an intended sleeper agent

[dry lagoon]

Got around to doing containment for the week and OH brother

that throws a wrench into the whole seeing the future capabilities that fwc had

[slim elk]

Leaves the whole faction as an open question now

[chrome fog]

Not the entire fact that their leader set loose the Vex in the city and also got herself killed? That’s not what put Future War Cult into the ground, learning Lakshmi-2 was Maya is what did them in?

[dry lagoon]

well no that was also wild but for the current story and trying to find a way to get through the big triangle in the traveler, this is pretty nuts

if they have anything they’ve used that allowed them to interface with the veil that we could track, it would feel like a pretty big story point for a season idk

[slim elk]

Believe Kaleds talking the device the FWC used to see into the future
Lakshmi having Mayas memories.. explains how they found the thing in the first place

[dry lagoon]

Yeah they’re a nutso group, the last city propaganda leading to bringing the vex in is hilariously crazy but now knowing that they’ve used the veil’s capabilities for seeing history and probably events in the future, it’s a pretty big revelation

it would make sense at least that they used the veil’s capabilities to see the future, it would be weird if they didn’t when they likely had the capability to do it

[slim elk]

More to the point
Why would Neomuna even allow Lakshmi to leave when they are so isolated?

[dry lagoon]

probably left secretly, definitely can be expanded upon if they choose to do so

[slim elk]

Has to be backed by their government, less they would have gone some lengths to plug that "leak" that could reveal their location to the Warlords

This isn't a random nobody after all, it's Mayas direct creation

Her absence would be noted pretty quickly

[safe galleon]

I'm guessing we somehow inadvertantly freed them via Macrocosm

It just seems to line up the most in my personal view tbh

We invade the Witness's flagship, we do an entire encounter centered around planets, the ending cutscene says that we need to explore 'the pieces (the Witness) left behind', and then the next season we get Titan back

The Macrocosm encounter is so odd to me in general though. I don't know why but it feels so out of place in RoN

Like, it's by all accounts this really interesting location with potential to be extremely significant, it's where the Witness stores its stolen worlds, and then it's guarded by an ipad baby Cabal that's like, barely distinct from other Cabal incendiors

[meager belfry]

What is the point of a guardian's class item? You would think it is for aesthetic purposes but they provide defense

[tawdry mauve]

"provide defense" ?

they are entirely asthetic lore wise afaik

[meager belfry]

Also, in D1 ghost shells had a light level, so does that mean ghosts are connected to our guardian in their abilities??

[meager belfry]

I mean light level like 1800

[tawdry mauve]

"ghosts are connected to our guardian in their abilities"

yes thats their whole point

lol

[meager belfry]

Ik they are... I just cant find a way to word it

In the way I mean

[smoky rose]

Power level is a gameplay thing

Canonically guardians all have the same ability only limited by training

[meager belfry]

So if my character wanted to, they could suddenly change into a Titan

[tawdry mauve]

they dont have to "change"

nothing is set in stone

they can blink like a warlock/hunter but shoulder dash like a titan

they could use well of radiance and thundercrash at once

classes are in the lore effectively just different "martial arts" and in the game they are gameplay restrictions

[meager belfry]

Never thought of it like that, thanks

[chrome fog]

I would hazard a guess that it’s something symbolic they focus on to hone their Light, if you want any fancy explanation other than it’s just armor aesthetics

Like a wand for a wizard or a cross for a priest

That last one doesn’t really work well, but the point gets across I hope

[meager belfry]

It does. So it is more for "something to stride toward"

[meager belfry]

Thanks again

[chrome fog]

pretty interesting that class items don’t get much elaboration but I’m pretty sure some Warlock bonds effectively state the same; not to mention Hunters’ Cloaks and Titans’ Marks generally hold deep symbolic meaning to them, either signifying personal connections, ideals, or groups whose principles they uphold

[meager belfry]

It was one of my first wonders long ago too. It was like "the hell does this do?"

But yeah I def heard titan marks carry some history like battles that happened in the lore

[chrome fog]

A number of them belong to specific,l orders of Titans and Hunters occasionally had groups too - Coyotes come to mind but there’s another that helped with the City’s founding - plus the Cayde sets and how he himself wears the cloak of his dead friend Andal Brask

[smoky rose]

The titan’s symbol from the outset reflects the battle of Six Fronts

[meager belfry]

Thats the one

[meager belfry]

What came to my mind was Shaxx preaching about Thanatonauts, Gensym Scribes, and the Praxic Order after a kill streak screaming in my ear

[smoky rose]

Warlocks for all 3 yeah

Well the scribes are a weird one afaik but the other two are very much warlock

[chrome fog]

Thanatonauts? I thought that had members of all three classes

[slim elk]

Let's kill ourselves repeatedly and see what happens!
-Thanatonaut Warlocks

(Crazy thing is they actually see stuff.. there's logic in that madness)

[meager belfry]

Where can I sign up?

What am I talking about thats what I alr do with nova bomb sometimes in pvp

[slim elk]

Just throw yourself off the nearest bridge and say what you saw after your ghost revives you

[meager belfry]

Sounds like a plan

[chrome fog]

Got a theory brewing that what they’re viewing is that place the FS teaser takes place in

[worldly river]

Genuine question, why do people even call the Witness cutscene a retcon of Unveiling? In what way are they mutually exclusive?

[real ingot]

they aren't exclusive

people saw the cutscene as a rewrite of Unveiling

the credibility of Unveiling has always been a question

issue is deciding in what way it works

How much can we believe

It's possible Unveiling indeed happened

the opposite is possible

[tawdry mauve]

The issue is everyone immediately took to unveiling as immediate factual origin of the universe

which was never meant to be the case

its propaganda

[real ingot]

it's*

[tawdry mauve]

i am going to

am

[real ingot]

I* not i

[tawdry mauve]

ion car

[worldly river]

No I absolutely agree Unveiling should never even have been treated as fact

But that aside I don't get where the retcon thing even comes from besides a misconception that the Witness was the Winnower

But I even saw Myelin saying he felt it was a retcon and I was just like ???

Though maybe he was treating Bungie claiming Unveiling was parable as retcon which again, dumb imo

[smoky rose]

REAL

And then he went on to say that the Vex created the black heart, which is just no

Its literally explicitly stated in Inspiral that the Witness dropped it off

There have not been any major retcons

I love Myelin but that was not it

[real ingot]

I still have no idea who Myelin is

[smoky rose]

Lore youtuber

Good one too (for the most part)

[smoky rose]

You want to know the funniest thing, the absolute FUNNIEST part of that whole video

Was when he used Books of Sorrow as an example of a good retcon

Have you maybe, just maybe, considered that the Witness basically tried to pull the same shit on us

[real ingot]

It was the same idea

[worldly river]

In general the idea of an in universe book written by a Darkness figure being treated as reliable

[smoky rose]

For what it's worth I do agree

[real ingot]

a story filled with lies

[worldly river]

When the first one of those we ever got was the Books of fucking Sorrow

[smoky rose]

And I think that the Unveiling """"retcon"""" is in the same category of being good

bungie clarifies who wrote it, which explains a lot of consistencies and inconsistencies in the text
RETCON REEEEE

[smoky rose]

Admittedly those self-admitted that they were full of lies

[worldly river]

Like no maybe the Witness wasn't trying to lie to us or intentionally write it as propaganda, but it is a book from a figure of the Darkness, about the Darkness, written to try to shape our view of the Darkness and Traveler through its own lens

[worldly river]

That's my point

No in universe book written by a figure of Darkness should ever be treated as anything less than half truths

If not lies then written by a biased source

Written through their own warped lens of the universe and the order of things

[smoky rose]

Also if you read Unveiling as the Witness telling it's own story through a metaphor, it actually makes perfect sense as a lore book

Besides maybe some of the more self-aggrandizing notions like in T=0

[real ingot]

I mean it is meant to be a metaphor

pretty sure it's on the first page

[worldly river]

It's funny because I literally got people in this very channel last year being like "Why would the Witness lie in Unveiling when it's trying to convince us of it's worldview"

Like people don't make bad faith arguments they believe in all the time
Or like a source can't be biased

[smoky rose]

Or the Witness isn't an omnicidal piece of shit

[real ingot]

The Witness when people enjoy the lives they have (He is very edgy and doesn't accept anothers view)

[smoky rose]

Like bro if dictators told their subjects the truth they'd be thrown out of office within a month

[worldly river]

I kinda understand like, if your driving goal was to prove someone wrong, why would you need to bend the truth
But we also see real world political figures making up bullshit to try to sway the public further to a view they believe
Doesn't matter if the reason they agree with you is false, so long as they agree with you

And now we know that wasn't the Witness's goal anyway because no, it wasn't the Winnower in a literal sense

[smoky rose]

I'd still argue it is

It became the Winnower it desired

[worldly river]

Yeah but I view that as more metaphor that literal, if that makes sense

[smoky rose]

mhm

[real ingot]

not in the same way they describe the winnower I guess

Winnower is treated as some primeval being of the darkness existing alongside the Gardener herself

The Witness is not primeval

They were as us

[worldly river]

Yeah

[real ingot]

They chose a different path is the difference

[worldly river]

I'm still inclined to read Unveiling more literally rather than a metaphor for the Witness's backstory, even if that literal interpretation is basically a fairy tale

But that's just me

[fallow sky]

How did the darkness civilization get their darkness? At the time the veil was still in the witness’ possession and the witness wouldn’t give them darkness just to let the hive destroy them right after

[real ingot]

what

[dim minnow]

I'm still thinking that Unveiling could be an interpetation of what the Witness learned from the Veil

[real ingot]

Veil was found by the first species

Veil gave them knowledge of the darkness

[real ingot]

What is the darkness species that you are referring to?

[dim minnow]

probably the Witness' species

[real ingot]

in that case

[dim minnow]

which is the Witness itself

[real ingot]

Witness wasn't around to have the veil

[fallow sky]

https://youtu.be/fSJLDy9oYlw

[real ingot]

get this shit video out of here

what the fuck is this

@dim minnow What am I looking at

[dim minnow]

OH

the Ecumene

[fallow sky]

right

[dim minnow]

they were just worshippers of the Deep

[real ingot]

Is Evaze spreading misinfo again?

[dim minnow]

the Ecumene were a group of races that the Hive wiped out

they were actually the closest to beating the Hive before us

until Oryx became the Taken King and turned the war around

Inspiral revealed that the Ecumene were actually worshippers of "The Deep" or Darkness

the Ecumene believed in total unity by having other races assimilate themselves into their society

[fallow sky]

Sounds familiar

But did the know all this about the darkness? how did they have access to it’s power? i thought you either needed the veil or the witness’ help for that

[dim minnow]

ehhh

[slim elk]

Stasis disproves that assertion quite handily

[real ingot]

Darkness is a neutral force

[dim minnow]

you mean Strand

[real ingot]

It is a tool to be used

[dim minnow]

Stasis was a gift from the Witness

[fallow sky]

Strand is from the veil tho right?

[real ingot]

to a degree

[dim minnow]

yes, but Stasis is from the Witness

[fallow sky]

Yea that too

[slim elk]

After all, it came from "within"
No. End of Beyond Light. Eramis shatters the shard we were using to utilize Stasis.. then start immediately using it regardless

[dim minnow]

well I think it has to do with the distinction between paracausal Light and Dark and regular Light and Dark

Light and Dark are fundamental

Light being physical and Dark being mental

you can say that us generating Arc, Solar, and Void out of thin air is due to the paracausal powers given to us by the Traveler

while our enemies using arc, solar, and void damage is just harnessing these natural phenomenon through technology (or whatever the Hive use)

maybe the Ecumene were harnessing Darkness elements through some sort of technology or something else

[peak coral]

vex milk being arc damage.

[dim minnow]

or the WItness gave them the Veil at some point and it just so happens that the Hive ran into them outside of the WItness' influence

[peak coral]

therefore vex milk contains light powah
therefore we can feed everyone vex milk and they will get arc powers.

obviously not correct

but what if.

[dim minnow]

technically you are actually

[peak coral]

[real ingot]

Smart Kyzora

[peak coral]

wow good to know.

[dim minnow]

drinking Vex Milk makes you into a Vex so you can deal arc damage when someone steps on you

[peak coral]

mid exotic time to fallen sunstar

[real ingot]

blame Alex

[fallow sky]

Maybe something like that, or they were the ones the witness’ race originally took the veil from

[smoky rose]

Definitely not

The Ecumene were not that old

By the way, one of Bungie's old games, Myth, was developed by 9 people and also had a mysterious force by the name of the nine

bungie really do like digging up old references

Pathways out of Darkness too

[trim grotto]

Into

[smoky rose]

Out of was the thing for Destiny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwOUi4JDC4o

[stone turtle]

huh and robot with a sniper

thats something you dont see now a days

[rare cedar]

So lore wise traveller and the veil was meant to be one been 2 halves of a whole

[real ingot]

No

similar beings that form something else when conjoined

[rare cedar]

But a why they could be counted as siblings?

In a way*

Cause that's what I'd picked up when the fished gave us some lore background

[real ingot]

They are of similar origin if Unveiling is taken as literal

[rare cedar]

I see

I also go an idea what if

As we get more dark abilities

We get the ability to fuse them together

[real ingot]

That isn't

what they're building to

[rare cedar]

Yea but it would've been cool

Cause in a way strand is kinda of like stasis

But instead of creation like strand stasis is destruction

[real ingot]

stasis is energy removal

[smoky rose]

Strand and Stasis are both related to consciousness

Stasis requires absolute control while Strand requires the relinquishment of said control

[rare cedar]

I feel like bungie could build off these ideas to make a subclass fusing thing

But ig that takes time

And more lore building

[rich veldt]

do we know if wielding both at once is possible?

[ember storm]

was osiris mixing his light elements during his gamer moment?

[rich veldt]

well yes but im curious if we know of any using strand and stasis at the same time

[sick yew]

It sounds cool

And looks cool too

[fresh zephyr]

what did you do to av

[sick yew]

Gave them a cool name

Are you interested in a cool name?

[fresh zephyr]

i dont think shes ever used crown

[sick yew]

All Arclocks naturally return to Crown of Tempest

But Tempest Crowned mainly sounds like a cool title

[fresh zephyr]

every time i see her its geomag

[sick yew]

Whats your goto exotic

[fresh zephyr]

im not that great at the game but ive been using sunbracers a bit but av sometimes say lunafactions might be something for me

[sick yew]

Cant make good sounding titles with that

Let me think

Eh that works @fresh zephyr congratulations on your new name

[fresh zephyr]

its fine

[sick yew]

Luna Faction Leader would have been another idea

[devout nimbus]

Goofy naming

[sick yew]

Whats your favorite exotic Scryl

[devout nimbus]

Don't really have one

[smoky rose]

Mine is lucky pants rn

Whip malf out and just cook champions

[sick yew]

Which subclass do you main then

[devout nimbus]

Solar warlock

[sick yew]

lemme cook something up then

[rich veldt]

hm

[sick yew]

@devout nimbus Phoenix Winged or Promethium Spurred come to mind pretty fast

[devout nimbus]

😨

[sick yew]

Which one you like more

Wings of Dawn sounds cool too

Sounds like a Dark Souls boss

Scryllix, Wings of Dawn

[smoky rose]

Promethium spurs

[sick yew]

They always sounded pretty cool

Their name I mean

[smoky rose]

Fair

[sick yew]

@devout nimbus ineed an answer here broski

[devout nimbus]

Wings of dawn

[sick yew]

Deal

@rich veldt your turn, favorite exotics or subclass

[smoky rose]

[sick yew]

Dw Disc youre next in line

[rich veldt]

either strand, stasis or arc hunter while keeping stasis in my name

[sick yew]

hmmm

[devout nimbus]

Lmao my friend just said Starfire Scryllix

[sick yew]

Thats boring

[devout nimbus]

Yeah

This better

[sick yew]

Has to fit the theme of "name", + exotic name turned into some kind of title

[rich veldt]

hm

[sick yew]

Gemini Jestered could work

But sounds a bit basic

@rich veldt hows that

I would have done Wormhusk Crowned but Av already has "Crowned"

[rich veldt]

is good

[sick yew]

A deal it is

[rich veldt]

and i remain spooky aswell, even better

[sick yew]

Yup

@smoky rose Aight step up

[smoky rose]

Lucky pants/malfeasance strand hunter

[sick yew]

I can work with that

Bit basic but Luckiest Pants come to mind pretty fast

[smoky rose]

That works

[sick yew]

Cyrtarachne's Facade is the only real strand exotic and that one already sounds like a title in itself

[smoky rose]

Luckiest pants is sufficiently silly

[sick yew]

Lucky Shadow
Since Malfeasance's perk is called Explosive Shadow

Id say we go with "The Lucky Shadow"

Do we have a deal @smoky rose

[smoky rose]

Sure

[sick yew]

This is really fun

[smoky rose]

In all seriousness strand hunter with LP/malf is stupid in basically any content with champions

[dim minnow]

lore

[smoky rose]

Just suspend em and nuke em

[sick yew]

Oh Dova

Good to have you here

Been a sec

Wanted to ask you about a theory you had back in Splicer

[smoky rose]

Server lore

[sick yew]

The sidearm loretab actually detailing the death of Lady Efrideet

@dim minnow you still believe in that one?

[smoky rose]

What was the sidearm’s name again

[sick yew]

uh

Yes

Farewell

[rich veldt]

goodbye

[smoky rose]

Speaking of farewell I need to sleep

[sick yew]

Based

[dim minnow]

eh

[rigid flower]

Sooo was there already a discussion on the decrypted message this week?

[dim minnow]

the lore tab certainly must have some relation to her given its flavor text though

[sick yew]

I mean that doesnt always mean something does it?

Shayura's wrath has a Shin quote and hes nowhere in that whole story

[dim minnow]

well, you could argue that what Shayura was doing was a twisted version of Shin's work as the Renegade

[sick yew]

Whats the quote in Farewell again

"A peace born from violence is no peace at all." —Lady Efrideet

Hmmm

I mean this could simply be in reference to the narrative of Splicer

[dim minnow]

speaking of Splicer

looks like our theories of Lakshmi-2 being Maya Sundaresh as an exo were correct

at least technically

[sick yew]

Wait what

[dim minnow]

this week's Veil log

[sick yew]

Or is it a Clovis and Banshee situation

[rigid flower]

I guess that means my answer was a no.

[dim minnow]

you see, Lakshmi-2 was one of the exos killed by the Veil's radiation

you recall how all the exos in Exodus Indigo were killed because of the Veil right?

[sick yew]

mhm

[dim minnow]

yeah

so anyways, Maya does some experimentation

with the Veil, she connects the dead exos to a Veil interface device thing

as a result, she is able to make a copy of her own mind and put it within Lakshmi-2's body

as a result, "Lakshmi-2" now spoke with Maya's voice and had some of her memories

but Chioma has some adverse feelings towards Lakshmi

[sick yew]

huh

[dim minnow]

sort of an uncanny valley sort of deal

[sick yew]

So theres a chance Maya was as xenophobic as Lakshmi?

[dim minnow]

where Lakshmi-2 is close to being Maya but not quite

[dim minnow]

have you seen what aliens are like in the Destiny universe?

[sick yew]

well yeah

[dim minnow]

you call it xenophobia, I call it sense of self-preservation

[sick yew]

But also this does explain why Lakshmi was so much into Vex technology

[dim minnow]

given FWC's background, her interest with Vex tech already made sense

hmmm

Maya was also the founder of FWC too

[sick yew]

In the years before Splicer I would have agreed
But she does go pretty hard on all the Eliksni hate when there are clearly some that are friendly

Same as with Humans

Cant put them all under one hat

There are friendly and not so friendly ones

Always have been always will be

[dim minnow]

they can take it off when they earn it

[sick yew]

Which is exactly what Mithrax and House Light have been trying to do from day1

In Lakshmis defense she was also kinda manipulated by Savathun a good bit

[dim minnow]

Lakshmi was unironically one of the more nuanced characters in Destiny

now this development could make her so much more complex

I want to see how this plays out with her background as a soldier

[sick yew]

I always liked the parallels between Humanity and the Eliksni

In some other universe it could easily have been roles reversed

remnants of Humanity chasing after the Traveler hoping to regain its grace and waging war against the Eliksni whom it now blesses

[trim grotto]

A good lot
Sav had influenced The Device that Lakshmi used, manipulated the data feeds, fed her Song (which influences people) into the very code itself, not to mention the song of the City. And, to boot, she straight up put Lakshmi in a trace in person as Osiris, influencing her face-to-face.

Without Sav? House of Light would have had a far easier integration.

Lakshmi may have hated them, true, and it wasn't unfounded either... but I do not believe she would stage a coup or open the portals like she did.

I can only imagine what it was like to be one of the only survivors of the burning of old London by the Devils, though.

[final geyser]

is it even possible for for oryx to get ressed by a ghost

seeing as he's not dead

[sick yew]

What

Why would Oryx not be dead?

[final geyser]

oryx is in fact not dead, his body is just braindead

[sick yew]

What do you base that on?

[final geyser]

the ghosts of the deep lore tabs confirm this- oryx is still incredibly dangerous because his body radiates taken and darkness energy, and is still growing

it's why he's so much bigger than he was in kingsfall

[sick yew]

Isnt that just some of his power remaining? Or does it outright say hes still technically alive

[final geyser]

it's also explained that the body seems to still take in information

it just can't react

[final geyser]

the rough description is "cell division is still occurring" which i think pretty solid evidence for the latter

[sick yew]

Well that brings us to the question of what is death

In what way does one have to die in order to be resurrected by a ghost

Lets take Shin Malphur

He was resurrected as a baby mere moments after his death

Since the body doesnt stop working right away after the moment of brain death you can argue the body itself was still alive but a ghost was able to bring him back

[final geyser]

the human body dies pretty quickly

the moment the brain stops telling the heart to beat a body only has a few minutes

possibly less

[sick yew]

Which was not the case for Shin as far as I remember

[final geyser]

i would consider it to be once a soul has passed on

a theory i saw was that living creatures' souls go into the traveler- a ghost has the "key" to get that soul back

oryx's soul isn't in his body but it certainly isn't in the traveler

i believe canonically Eris has it rn

in the Touch of Malice

[sick yew]

Thats definitely a possibility

But with Ghost lore being as it is we can never know for sure

[trim grotto]

ToM has a piece of his heart. But he does not live on through it, soul or otherwise.
We never took on his mantle, you see.

If we had replaced him, become him, he would live on through that. But we never did.

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cloak-of-the-taken-king

For context

[chrome fog]

It’s as much a metaphor as the adding and removing of apples is a metaphor for addition and subtraction; it’s nature as a parable doesn’t immediately make it entirely fictional, it’s just a substitution of what happened with easier concepts and words, a summarization. In this case, Unveiling would be a biased summary of the creation of the universe from the Witness’ perspective, with the only part that we can say it is lying about being the existence of a Winnower.

• the Veil had been passive when the Witness species studied it, they learned Darkness through the study of it, not through any direct gifting or communion with it like Maya
• We know Darkness to be that if the mental/metaphysical, so if the Witness species who wanted a Winnower so bad discovered Darkness, whose to say their ideals didn’t infect the Veil itself, leading to when Maya and the Founding of Neomuna happens

[chrome fog]

YOU’RE SO RIGHT I FUCKING FORGOT ABOUT THIS BULLSHIT

[fresh zephyr]

Obscure destiny lore reference found in An ILLUMINATE exhibition

[sick yew]

What

[fresh zephyr]

It’s the witnesss, the black fleet and the traveler

[chrome fog]

Cryptarchy’s been theorizing this too actually, maybe some kind of sand subclass where we take the memory of a weapon and then form it out of thin air

[sick yew]

Oh yeah Destiny invented both the triangle/pryamid and circle/sphere

[chrome fog]

Where

What?

[chrome fog]

Answer is yes

Ok all caught up

[fresh zephyr]

No, just those icons in that order is suspiciously close to depictions of the final shape and symbols in VotD

[blazing wasp]

The final shape is gta cheat codes

[ember storm]

the final shape is Kirby

[chrome fog]

The Final Shape is QAnon

[royal portal]

the final shape is inserting a square peg into a round hole

[little gorge]

*witness shaped peg into a triangular hole

[wheat latch]

Inhales the witness, then what

[wheat latch]

"it goes in the square hole"

[vagrant bridge]

My favorite part of light fall was when the witness said "I will witness your lightfall" then witnessed everything

[daring iris]

looking back at what I said about dates up here, I wrote a little regex script to parse all the lore entries in d1/d2 for things that look like date formats and there were only a few worth looking at

in part 17 of The Pigeon and the Phoenix the communications between saint and osiris are dated as march-september of '294'

maybe like city age year 294

the MIDA Mini-Tool lore entry is dated to 2472/11/17 (obviously in Marathon's universe), but in the Multi-Tool lore entry states that Zavala asked Rahool to pull up records from golden-age martian settlements, meaning that this year should have placed it during humanity's golden age

the Cloud Strider Legacies Maelstrom lore entry starts out with this bit of text

//AUDIO LOG MAEL092751

//SECURITY==DELTA-DELTA

//FILE DELETED PF0476-10-16```
the bit at the bottom looks like a date 0476-10-16 but thats speculative

April 10th, 3025 is the date given for the future timeline where Clovis Bray retrieved the No Time To Explain and found Elsie dead

[mint folio]

The Kitness

[chrome fog]

Not really appropriate, #🏆destiny-media is best for this content

[trim grotto]

Pigeon and the Phoenix does indeed have dates, but they're not dates we can reliably use. Certainly worth noting, but the lack of context makes them unreliable. Is it City Age length? Founding duration, full establishment, Six Fronts? Is it meant to suggest that the City was already nearly 300 years old by the time Osiris and Saint left? Certainly brings to question the already very old Speaker's age. So on, so forth.
It does show that Osiris is terrible at messages though.

Technically, Zavala didn't do that. He asked Shaxx to investigate. Shaxx's Redjacks unlocked it, Rahool said MIDA didn't exist in records, and Lakshmi says it was from a different timeline, perhaps because of GA experiments.
It could be from a period of time comparable to our Golden Age, but we can't use it as evidence.

The NTTE timeline is a separate timeline and thus not very useful either. However, it does imply that 3025 is post-Collapse, and thus post-Golden Age, at least in that timeline. Unreliable, but noteworthy.

Finally, Sedderik Assur's log. Is it a date? Maybe, maybe not. Similarly to the Pigeon and the Phoenix log, this could be referring to a date since the founding of Neomuna. Unlike Pigeon and the Phoenix, this doesn't raise as many questions. It could well be!
Speaking of the Cloudstriders, counting the gemmed graves suggests a timeline of a little over a thousand years since their inception. Not sure we can assume that's accurate, but it's neat.

[slim elk]

The irony is that Neomuna would likely have the best chronological record given they didnt have any major societal collapse

But yeah. The only other solid lead is failsafe giving a ballpark of 500 years as she mentions "5 centuries" in some dialogue

[chrome fog]

Then again she is not fully wired in

[trim grotto]

Unreliable for a variety of reasons.
She's unstable, spent time out of system and perhaps out of standard space, spent time inside the Vex network (ten years during a ten minute Adventure), so on so forth.

[slim elk]

I would say just ask Neomunas archivist.. but alas we cant have that option

Would defintely be an interesting "deep dive" to examine Neomuna's archives and filter out how much of their history has been covered up

Recent revelation with Lakshmi definitely has opened a bunch of timeline questions

[limpid flower]

do we know what tf this is

[trim grotto]

Egregore. But, bigger.

[analog torrent]

What does the inside of an exo look like? Mechanics or abiotic organs and blood?

[trim grotto]

Bit of both. We saw Cayde's arm and leg, or the lack thereof, after being shot off.

Mechanics and sparking. But we also know Exo can "bleed".

[trim grotto]

"Wasn't hidin' it." Drifter rolls Eris's Ahamkara bone over his knuckles. "Ain't nobody ever asked. Hell, you've walked by it before, Moondust."```

[limpid flower]

ic ok. thjank u!

[chrome fog]

They have the issue of human error, which we see from various lore tabs connected to Neomuna is still prevalent, not to mention they also have no Risen to persist through generations and verify information

[slim elk]

Nah, the problem is way worse and admitted in universe. Someone deliberately altered a lot of their records and seemingly purged even significant figures [Lakshmi] from their archives

[dim minnow]

now I want to know where Lakshmi really came from

[slim elk]

So have the classic issue of someone rewriting the history books mixed with lot of propoganda

[dim minnow]

she mentions that she has a background as a soldier

so I wonder what she meant by that

[slim elk]

I think Lakshmi was a "sleeper agent"

Her name is the giveaway, she was never rebooted.. thus never lost memories

[dim minnow]

she also mentions stuff that had to happen during the Collapse like the fall of the knights of the Mumbai Push

the Burning of London which was right after the Collapse

she witnessed a lot of stuff

[slim elk]

Dont forget that Splicer lore where she deliberately confronted the Devil that ordered it

Either Bungie is retconing [badly] or theres much more to Lakshmi then we knew

[dim minnow]

well we have yet to see the full story

we just know now that she originated from Neomuna

[slim elk]

Aye, which as you said contradicts a bit of her prior history

[dim minnow]

well

Neomuna could of been established before the Collapse

Rasputin had info about it you know

until that one Cloud Strider deleted it

[slim elk]

Prior Veil logs contadict that

[dim minnow]

how so?

[slim elk]

When Maya arrived to be specific

[dim minnow]

she arrived on Exodus Indigo yes

[limpid flower]

the exodus ships launched after the collapse didnt they? or right before

[chrome fog]

Then… that’s just makes their historical record not only severely isolated but also just as misaligned as the rest of the system’s, if not worse because revisions were made purposefully instead of lack of infrastructure

[dim minnow]

there were Colony ships going out before the Collapse

[slim elk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VfTgt6WNGo
3:55.. which per Esi's log arrived after the Collapse

[limpid flower]

i dont believe hers was one of them