📚lore-discussion

[empty fern]

Maybe

Or completely new species if bungies marathon flops

[fringe gull]

Its vex and marathon will not flop

[daring iris]

yeah thats been the main overarching theme of the last 3 DLCs

hence why we have started to wield darkness and our enemies wield light

[chrome fog]

I'm thinking back to Dova's theory of Resonance being the penultimate destructive nature of Light, rather than the Darkness

There could be some messaging there for the destructive potential of Light, which then plays into the theme of the Responsibility of Power

The lightless have questioned the Vanguard's authority to protect and act upon threats to the Sol System and the City, this is just a presentation of a more real situation, a What If for when our Light truly goes wild and unleashed

[fringe gull]

Vex is main problem though

[thorny spruce]

Hey can anyone explain sweet sorrows lore inscription to me?

I don't get who/what it's talking about

[trim grotto]

Given the context, I'd assume it's Glint to Crow.

[royal portal]

matter and antimatter cause a big bang when touching. matter and/or antimatter can be used separately. bad comparison but think like that

and gameplay doesnt have to follow lore. otherwise every game gets ”why this why that”

[meager belfry]

Is it possible for any non lightbearer human awoken or exo to harness any of the darkness subclasses?

Because our guardian wasnt reborn with it, they just kinda picked it up

[trim grotto]

Elsie.

The Exo Stranger.

She's not a Lightbearer, never was.

[blazing wasp]

Eris also no longer has a ghost

[meager belfry]

Really? Could've fooled me

[trim grotto]

That too

[blazing wasp]

She never once uses the light nor mentions using it

[trim grotto]

She actually explicitly mentions not having it

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[meager belfry]

@blazing wasp @trim grotto. Thanks guys

[blazing wasp]

👍

[safe galleon]

leading on from the question of non-lightbearer darkness wielders, is there a limit to how powerful a human could theoretically become with the darkness?

could you become as powerful as someone like, idk, rhulk or something

[trim grotto]

There's not much differentiating the Witness (pre melding) to a Human

So I would imagine not

[safe galleon]

there are some limits on the light, though, aren't there? like, the ghosts are what let us channel it, and they have to have their own limits, right?

[little gorge]

in the same sense though, we never know how powerful the witness' people (i still want to call them witnesses tbh) were pre melding

individually speaking

[trim grotto]

True, but they would have gained any paracausal power the same way anybody else would. Study, taking, using.

As for individuals, simply look at... well, the Disciples. Or Hive, albeit with the Worm Parasites. Speaking of Worms, the Worm Gods.

[little gorge]

yeah worm gods

probably the best example

[empty fern]

Oh yea

Is each warmind exotic from xol? Example like
Wormgods caress
Verites brow
And wormhusk

[trim grotto]

They're vaguely Xol related, in some manner

[tawdry mauve]

sleeper stimulant

[trim grotto]

Yeah he went back to the Golden Age to force Rasputin to make it

[empty fern]

Y’all remember the thunder lord quest mission right? Brought back old plaguelands for a sec in d2

What was the lore or theme of that mission again?

[trim grotto]

Find what'shisface

The Reef Cryptarch

Ives!

Master Ives, that's the one

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/quest-the-lost-cryptarch

[ember storm]

voice provided by Devrim’s va

by simple logic, if we get a quest where Devrim also dies, we get his gun too

No Land Beyond will be back where it belongs

[peak coral]

IN OUR HANDS

[robust violet]

so.. i just did an oob to backtrack to 2nd vow secret chest
found the prophecy wall

its all darkness

im unsure if this is intentional

or just a placeholder that they have that shows up when its not loaded

you'd think it would just be the blank runes if it was a placeholder

[viscid knot]

me and my friend were wondering, wtf is 1k voices actually?

[trim grotto]

That is the placeholder rune. It likely just unloaded since you passed that loadzone.

[trim grotto]

It wasn't ever specified, but it's made from Ahamkara (likely Riven).

[robust violet]

i cant tell if you're saying darkness is the placeholder rune or if you're just confused between the two

i found a reddit thread saying that all the runes are darkness regardless though

unfortunate

[fresh zephyr]

wait so is rhulk dead or no

im seeing more and more points about how the vines are healing and we didnt even finish him off

but by that logic wouldnt the other disciples be alive too?

so what do you guys think

@trim grotto any ideas mr lore man?

some people and lore are saying that rhulk can revive himself too, so maybe hes the only disciple that can actually do that to heal himself and then come back later on?

[chrome fog]

He's dead, but it seems his remains can still consume individuals, such as one guardian who was transporting said remains

I think armor from the raid details this, haven't gotten a chance to check

[ember storm]

looks like it’s just inside of disciples and what’s empowering them or keeping them “alive”, judging by the healing properties

Either way darkness can’t cure death, so it all just spills out when they die

[fresh zephyr]

so short answer he ded

but the darkness is still around affecting things

like radiatian

radiation*

[chrome fog]

Bit more nebulous than that, since we don't know what the hell is happening with Rhulk's remains

With Nezarec we assume he is able to continue existing as an incorporeal thought being and just transfers between bodies

And then I don't believe we have anything on Calus' remains, do we?

[ember storm]

Nezarec is a special case and isn’t really comparable to Rhulk

I mean, one went on about being unlikable, while the other just let out a mournful cry while he died

[safe galleon]

Rhulk's remains got contained and nuked by a sparrow ignition iirc

So HE'S definitely dead, barring bungo pulling something from nowhere and bringing him back at some point

It does beg the question of if the remains being able to possess people is like, a rhulk thing, or something else, though

[robust violet]

i feel its probably some darkness thing

like

rhulk, nezarec

[chrome fog]

Welp

[robust violet]

and theres also the titan that went through the portal

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

We don't know

[chrome fog]

Unrelated to the Disciples but sure; I've gone on about a bigger theory of what's past the Portal here a couple times, looking at the title of the Ship that tells us what that Titan experienced, the Final Shape teaser, and a couple other big spinfoils that have changed with the Witness cutscene

[robust violet]

akashic revelation and valiant memory

both not that

sinister

[chrome fog]

Search up Akashic Revelations

[fierce dune]

This ship’s name and lore helps my theory that the veil is a physical akashic record

[chrome fog]

Mine is that beyond the portal is the Rest of the Garden, itself the Akashic Record; a repository of everything that was, is, and will be played on the gameboard that is the universe

[fierce dune]

The garden is metaphorical not real but I understand calling it that

[chrome fog]

The Veil is only a companion to the Traveler/Gardener who provides blessings of Darlness

[chrome fog]

You understand what it is regardless of the metaphorical nature, the metaphor is to make it easier to describe what is happening

It's like calling the Witness' a nihilistic pile of babies

If the Veil was a physical Akashic Record then why does it not show any property of memory? The Luna Pyramid has more in common with the Record than the Veil

The Veil is simply a source of the Darkness just like the Traveler/Gardener is a source of the Light

Though it itself is sentient as well

[fierce dune]

It could very well be the key to the akashic record. A window into the mind and memory of the universe. The traveler could be the door to it in a sense

[empty fern]

Does the star crossed set have any lore? Or qieos

[fierce dune]

Also in the backstory of the witness it’s people saw the veil as a source of power opposite of the light linked to consciousness and thought

[chrome fog]

That's further support for my theory of the place beyond the portal being the Akashic Record, as it seems to hold memories of past beings (Cayde glowing Memory blue instead of yellow) and recreate them physically
Adding to that, it makes sense that these "pieces" of the Gardener (supposedly from Unveiling and other entries that suggest that the Gardener was split into two sisters and the Witness being a "false sister") would be the key to this dimension, as it originally was from this plane prior to being split

[fierce dune]

That sister part and gardener pieces make no sense

[chrome fog]

They sought it as an alternative God to the Gardener who would fulfill their need for a 'Winnower' but only found Darkness through researching the Veil, not from it speaking to them

Give me a minute

;lore

[candid inlet]

D2 Lore Resources
• #📚lore-discussion
• PreviouslyOnDestiny - Catch up on the story of Destiny
• Ishtar Collective - Lore database
• Destinypedia - Lore database
• Destiny Lore Subreddit - Lore compendium
• MyNameIsByf - YouTube channel
• Infograph - Partial timeline at a glance
• Lore Book Guide - Spreadsheet of all lore books

[fierce dune]

Also not everything in unveiling is true lol

[chrome fog]

Not everything but there is still truth in it

[fierce dune]

Bungie devs have described it as like a propaganda piece and religious text with tidbits of truth (paraphrasing)

[chrome fog]

It's simply a matter of rooting out which ones are propaganda and which ones have support from other sources

[fierce dune]

The sisters thing doesn’t have support though

[chrome fog]

And guess who also did this? Savathun
A key part of her deception was hiding some of the truth within the lies as well to make you doubt the overall truth at all. To outright dismiss Unveiling is a mistake when other lore entries support some of the claims and inferences we pull from that book

[fierce dune]

No I do take in account actual things that are lined with recent events and lore and see if it better matches with things in unveiling. In the first line of unveiling it even says in clear lines the garden is metaphorical and the gardener and winnower are ontological principles.

[fierce dune]

Which bit of lore

[chrome fog]

And guess who is referred to as the Gardener outside of the metaphor? The Traveler. The metaphor is meant to be an allegory for the struggle currently occuring within the Destiny universe, and we can see - have seen - that the propagandized part of Unveiling is turning us away from the naive and hopeful ideals of the Traveler - the hope of coming together to protect one another despite our differences - to the ideals of the Witness - to reduce and cut down in order to define who is most deserving to live

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/severing?highlight=false+sister

From a vision given to the Speaker, which is how the Traveler 'spoke' to them in the firstnplace

Metaphor is meant to represent something, and in this instance, it is representing the conflict in the universe

At recent, we can deduce there is no real 'Winnower' entity as the actual companion to the Traveler/Gardener is the Veil, who at most is ambivalent about the conflict currently happening

At least, no Winnower at the time frame presented in Unveiling

Due to the nature of Darkness being that of the subconscious, of the mind, it could be theorized that the Winnower emerged when the Witness species made contact with the Veil and communed with it, with them both the history of the universe and spreading their desire for a Winnower to the Veil

Which explains why it has been so passive in the Witness' backstory and yet is taking similar strides in the founding of Neomuna, from what we see in the Veil Containment logs

[fierce dune]

Honestly this just sounds like the veil

[chrome fog]

It also matches the Witness' ability to spread it's will into others through the Darkness

[empty fern]

How long did the fight with the leviathan and the 3 hive sisters last?

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[slim elk]

An interesting question is what exactly happened to Neomuna with Mayas ambitions

Osiris in verse directly compares the Cloudark origins to how the Witness was created

[chrome fog]

I just put a theory on why the Veil is acting the same as the Witness

[fierce dune]

I quickly wrote that because I had to help my partner move boxes out of their hot asf attic

[slim elk]

Are Mayas ambitions still on going? we never had a confirmation of her death
And even Clovis still has his giant head on Europa

[fierce dune]

What I mean is the speaker calls himself the witness to the end of the world. In the first dialogue of the traveler it describes being stuck in black spider silk. Could be how the first attack left the traveler. 2nd talks about human settlements being absolutely destroyed but not by something that the darkness would do, but natural disasters like what the witness’ people had to endure from the traveler’s power. But it doesn’t blame itself because it is a result of its power to basically revive a planet. 3rd talks about this happening before “alien cities torn down by a wind so fierce that it flattened an entire world” this is most likely a dream of the whirlwind after the traveler left. And now the line you showed me “half remembered and wished forgotten” the veil literally makes people who come into contact with it die of brain death and it was found in an far star system than the star system and planet the traveler was found on, I’d say it wanted to be left alone.

[true vault]

there was a story about drifter killing a guardian in the crucible right?

[empty fern]

I don’t remember one in the crucible

But there was that one meeting with another dredgen

[true vault]

what is a dredgen?

[empty fern]

Old faction drifter was apart of I think?

https://tenor.com/view/drifter-destiny-destiny2-gambit-laugh-gif-25143789

In this scene

[true vault]

ooooh

[blazing wasp]

Drifter was with the dredgens for some reasons that differed with the dredgens iirc

So he was only a dredgen for the sake of it

[true vault]

what class is drifter even?

[blazing wasp]

He's not a class

He predates them

[true vault]

ooooh

[chrome fog]

To the second point, it is never stated the Witness species endured any disasters from the Traveler's presence, just that they knew of the destructive potential of the Light (which might be realized in the use of Resonance, from Dova's theories). As to the last point, it only killed Exos that came into contact with it, and recently it has come to knowledge that it influenced Maya to develop the CloudArk in order to perform a similar ritual as the Witness species.
Going back to the bit about natural disasters 'caused' by the Traveler, they're never directly caused by her, only by others that are pursuing her. This includes the God Wave that the Osmium Court Princesses were told would wipe out their civilization if they didn't accept the Worm Gods' deal; it was a lie from the Witness, who was going to cause the God Wave itself. As for the natural disasters of the Collapse and the Whirlwind, those were caused by the Pyramids at the Witness' order. For all its done, the Veil has mostly been sitting around where Savathun hid it and then started repeating the same beats as the Witness, which that itself contrasts to how it didn't really do anything with the Witness species who discovered Darkness only through studying it.

[chrome fog]

What Uke said, plus he has a tendency to work outside conventional boundaries at most opportunities

[chrome fog]

As for killing another Guardian in an activity, this was mostly part of his operation with Shin in taking out/dissuading any Risen seeking to follow Rezzyl Azzir's footsteps and become another Dredgen; Shin founded the Shadows of Yor to attract all these edgy wannabes and then staged the murder of another conspirator to scare the Shadows away. For most of his part, Drifter was running Gambit to give a new meaning to the title Dredgen - rather than being a successor to Dredgen Yor, its any Guardian that does well in Gambit.

Then there's the Joker's Gambit thing where a Dredgen is trying to kill him but gets saved by The Emmissary

[royal portal]

shin storyline is perfect and unretconnable

rezyl deserves a foot massage🫰

[chrome fog]

He's dead

And Shin's story is kinda messy

But whatever, it doesn't break much

"But how does he wield Golden Gun without a Ghost and he doesn't get the Light from Jarren Ward's Ghost?" Guardians have infused things with Light (Aegis being a notable example), supposedly Last Word is the same, but it gets broke before we start the quest to get it in D2

"So why doesn't Last Word act like a pocket Golden Gun anymore?" Because we replaced all the parts and stuff, probably

There was something like with with Ace of Spades but idr what the argument was about, same situation of replacing the parts changed how it is in the lore to how the gun is currently in our actual hands

[fierce dune]

It didn’t just kill exos that came in contact, the first people that came into contact with it on neptune literally died of instant brain death and the exos also did but before hand suffering terrible nightmares and hallucinations and I’ll concede about the natural disasters but in the origin it shows the image they use as the witness’ people as those who also were hit by the chaos the traveler brought. They probably saw the chaos it caused on their own planet, it’s not directly stated but implied by the story telling and imagery.

[chrome fog]

I would like to ask for the first point where that info comes from because genuinely I haven kept up with the Containment Logs save for snippets I parse from lore discussion.

As for the latter point, at worst the Chaos the Traveler brought was on the initial contact with it arising from their planet's crust, they were able to construct the Pyramids and cities seemingly similarly advanced afterwards. They had no catastrophe brought by the Traveler's presence because they had nothing like themselves or the Hive chasing the Traveler down at that point. All we know is they prospered under the Traveler, sought a purpose from her and were desatisfied by the lack of one (and not accepting the truth of there being no inherent purpose to life, just that you live), sought the Veil and studied it to access the Darkness, and then attempted to merge the Veil and the Traveler in order to create that portal, to which the Traveler fled from them in order to prevent that from happening.

[fierce dune]

Audio logs by chioma esi talked about every researcher in the initial research team died making physical contact with the veil instantly going brain dead. Same with the conductor and orchestra where all of those people died linking their minds basically like you said trying to make another witness.

[royal portal]

a classic western revenge story that evolves into the hero ”becoming” the villain, realizing his own story is insignificant in the face of actual extinction and having a sped-up arms race he oversees because he is the only one strong enough to be objective.
Being one of an age of heroes and realizing heroes arent enough, having lived his time as the apex he forces others to surpass him and cuts those who cant make the cut

will agree that his start is messy with ghost transference

my headcanon is the same way drifter used light to grow crops, residual light left in shin was only enough to use pathetic amounts of light to make GG.
he just built different

[fresh zephyr]

How does Zavala have both arc and void?

[green cobalt]

we're limited because of gameplay balance reasons, he's not subject to balance because he isn't playable like how Ikora cast 2 novas back to back in the Red War campaign intro

[ocean oriole]

Why does xivu arath only ever yell? Like in the new exotic lore she is scream head off?

[fresh zephyr]

So that’s why cayde was able to use both blade barrage and golden gun in his death scene?

Bc he is an noc

Npc*

[green cobalt]

that's how the light powers work in lore

[ocean oriole]

Cayde could've just stat there cause a ghost doesn't need to be visible to heal as it is in game

Or maybe I'm just dumb

[uneven canyon]

What's the lore around xur

[ocean oriole]

All I know is that he was a failed nine experiment and that someone broke his back and crushed his windpipe hence why he can't stand up straight and take right

That may be wrong

[tender cove]

I have a feeling we will see some sort of synthetics v organics conflict post the final shape (e.g. mass effect) after hearing that Vex will play a bigger role.

[ocean oriole]

I always have wished that vex get there own dlc

It's sad that that the first vex season cutscene thingy was a cutscene from a never seen vex dlc😭

[safe galleon]

This is not a canon explanation but personally I like to think that it's part of the 'you cannot stray from your nature' stipulation of her pact with the worm gods that she has to yell all the time even when she is in emotional agony

Because I think it's a really funny possibility

[limpid flower]

she thrives off her

war*

yelling is just a silly thing she does to get respect

[safe galleon]

It could also just be that she's genuinely deranged

Which I think is equally as likely

She could be just "like that"

[trim grotto]

All Guardians have the capability to use all elements.

Nobody is locked to a single element, they just have to learn how to use them.

[trim grotto]

That's just gameplay. In lore, you need your Ghost to heal.

[ocean oriole]

Oh ok thx for clarifying

I feel like u help with my dumb questions a lot so thx

[trim grotto]

His lore is vague. However, we believe he was a member of a colony who willingly gave himself up to the Nine. They transformed him into the Agent of the Nine, Xur, as a middle-man for the Nine, a way to interact with the world and with the Guardians.
He is dying slowly, cells falling apart, because the Nine barely understand how life works. His spine is shattered due to a misunderstanding and altercation with a Titan, Orin, who hit him with her warhammer into a boulder, breaking his spine.
Funnily enough, she's now the Emissary of the Nine.

[tulip knoll]

I’m sure I’ve seen this already before but isn’t there lore about guardians going insane due to the concept of dying over and over again?

[uneven canyon]

Yup

[trim grotto]

There's only one example that comes to mind outside of Guardians having more existential arguments, and that's from a piece of lore that isn't actually real lore.

That is to say, lore that didn't make the cut.

[chrome fog]

Consider he's been around to help found the City and we're barely a Decade old

[chrome fog]

Probably some Sword Logic thing, and her trying to be dominant in all possible aspects

[fiery copper]

Canonically you can do literally whatever with Light, including swapping elements on the fly and even improv-ing new supers. Not being able to do that ingame is for balance.

[jolly vector]

yeah ingame hunters are stupid as fuck only using solar light on hand cannon

instead of a rocket

[smoky rose]

Its not always yelling per se

Just speaking VERY LOUDLY

[fiery lily]

Yeah I figure it kinda like Shaxx in that way haha

[safe galleon]

The Heart of Inmost Light lore tab comes to mind for me

I'm sure there are guardians who get mentally disturbed from the idea of dying over and over and being resurrected to die again. I mean at the very least i'm pretty sure guardians don't have any amplified mental fortitude over any normal old human, and i can say for certain the concept of continuous death and resurrection would prooobably be basis for existential crises in the average person

[little gorge]

i don't think she even yells necessarily bungie just decided to make her lines all caps

like in the dungeon some of her lines have a completely different tone

[jolly vector]

I mean when you are specifically a god of war why would you even say anything in a softvoice

[little gorge]

in the last memory in gotd she does kind of say it in a soft voice

[jolly vector]

cus it was in secret

tbh if I were the general of such a force of power I wouldn't want to look like im soft

[little gorge]

"yo guardian I'm kind of sad you killed my broth- i mean uhhhh AIAT"

[chrome fog]

She's still relatively shouting all the time, even if it has been lowered down to not make our eardrums bleed

[fierce dune]

I can’t wait to kill her. I only like savvy.

[rich veldt]

what makes you think it will be our hand that deals the killing blow

[real ingot]

Surprise

Brother Vance

[ember storm]

honestly want hope for the future to show up at some point

[fierce dune]

What makes you think we wouldn’t be? She already despises us and we’d most likely be the fodder since we can revive but I bet we’ll still kill her

[rich veldt]

she needs to die but someone else could kill her

[fierce dune]

Not many who’d be able to except maybe caiatl

Maybe in a fit of rage for revenge for torobatl

[rich veldt]

how tf caital gonna kill her

[fierce dune]

Well who else can swoop in for final kill that isn’t a guardian

[little gorge]

she wants to hone us so we're her biggest challenge

so yes we are going to kill her

[fierce dune]

We dealt the final blow to calus
Dealt it to oryx and savathün
To the skull of the son of oryx crota
We killed ghaul until he went light nut form and the traveler eviscerated him
We killed quaria the taken mind.
We literally killed a fucking wish dragon
We have killed a worm god (though it was the weakest one xol)
And we killed the witness’ disciples nezzy and rhulk.
Why wouldn’t we be dealing the final blow to xivu?

[muted rune]

Who do you guys think would lead the hive when xivu’s dead?

[peak coral]

"we have killed a worm god"

bro is just tired

poof became gun

[trim grotto]

Someone else of her Brood. The thing about the Hive is that there's always someone waiting to take up the mantle.

[rich veldt]

we most likely are dealing the final blow, but it aint guarenteed

[fierce dune]

Yes it is guaranteed cause who tf else could that isn’t a guardian

[rich veldt]

well theres mara, savu, the witness, potentially ahsa, starhorse to name a few, granted atleast 2 dont really make sense

[peak coral]

starhorse

no fucking way

[rich veldt]

juan is bungie incarnate of course he could just kill xivu for whatever reason

[coral prism]

So still in the early stages of Lightfall but why is Neptune such a surprise to them when Earth is space capable? Did no one think to visit any of the planets?

[trim grotto]

A few reasons. One, because the last time they visited Earth, we were still in the Dark Ages.

Two, Neomuna is hidden behind... well, a veil, for want of a better term. Between the clouds and gasses of Neptune and the Vex-built screen keeping them isolated, they had little knowledge of the outside world past some observatories or nearby satelites.

[slim elk]

Active self isolation to be clear

[trim grotto]

Not entirely, but yes.

[slim elk]

Neomuna visited earth and purged any data they could to cover their tracks

A result of seeing the Dark Ages on Earth

[coral prism]

oof alrighty

[slim elk]

There was nothing stopping them from leaving.. they just isolated themselves

[fiery copper]

i should probably log in so i can listen to the veil logs huh

but will i?

[daring iris]

how much of destiny’s story can actually be tied to chronological dates? it would be interesting putting the passage of time between events in perspective idk if anyone has made a timeline like that

I know a lot of the lore coming from the clovis bray/ishtar collective has years/months etc involved

[trim grotto]

Depends on what you mean. We do not have dates. Dates don't exist.

We can and have made chronological lists, though.

[fierce dune]

Mara probably would lead the charge as a queen, not the final blow. We’d be her soldiers. The witness is busy inside the portal looking for the final shape or what ever, ahsa went into a deep sleep after the last mission, and the nine are currently sitting back and just letting this happen they dont have much power here.

[daring iris]

I’ve definitely seen dates in certain pre and post-collapse lore entries

[trim grotto]

I can assure you, you haven't seen any dates that provide actual valuable data.

We have vaguely provided timeframes from irreputable sources at best.

[daring iris]

ah ok

[trim grotto]

That being said, wait right there.

[wheat latch]

Do we have a general idea of what year it is currently?

[trim grotto]

Not really. General consensus is between 500-2000 years since the Collapse.

[daring iris]

woah lol then its definitely not going to be easy to put together a timeline

they probably only put reliable dates in golden age era lore entries on purpose to leave it up to interpretation

[wheat latch]

When was the collapse or does that not really have a specific year either

[trim grotto]

Not even then.

[trim grotto]

No.

[daring iris]

I can remember seeing the soteria stuff having a year attached to it like 2833 or something

maybe im trippin

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/timeline
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10P-PZtNUN0JjJ8afpiDr07rEqsg2irn6ICI2e3h_fso/edit?usp=sharing
Have these sources. Ishtar's timeline was managed by Dyno, who was the same one who created the Sheets version (which is slightly more elaborate).

[wheat latch]

Well the current year is somewhere between 0 and 100000

[daring iris]

might be a newer thing in the writing and maybe there isnt much else to corroborate it

[trim grotto]

AI-S: Andromeda Galaxy. Several million habitable worlds, 2.5 million lightyears. Estimated ECHO travel time: twenty-five-thousand-year average with Neutrino Sail and gravitational sling-skipping. I have selected over three hundred preliminary colony targets, with one favorite. Shall I…
Perhaps you're thinking of this.

[daring iris]

hmm maybe

maybe I literally imagined this stuff lol

you might be right

[fierce dune]

All I know is it’s more than 2 years

[fiery copper]

it is the... 3rd... milennium. for more than... a hundred years, the city has sat immovable in the andes, a relic from the dark age of earth.

[chrome fog]

He was also the weakest Worm God

As for the time frame, we know that 2014 is when we first make contact with the Traveler I think, that might not be fully accurate

[trim grotto]

"Present day"

Which is also arguably inaccurate given other information

[slim elk]

Pretty sure the timline was altered even before then..
The USA being replaced with North American Empire

[trim grotto]

Suggesting it's more like "near future"

[trim grotto]

That was Golden Age lore from LDoKM

[slim elk]

Ah
Thought was mentioned the Ares One crew having members from there

[empty fern]

Any interesting lore on thaviks the depraved? (Exodus strike)

[ember storm]

no

[empty fern]

Also his legs look weird

Aw

[ember storm]

only like 5 strike bosses have actual relevance

looks like he just has prosthetics https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/5/5c/ThaviksInfobox.jpg

[empty fern]

Ah

Aw

Any other bosses with kind of unique appendages?

[tawdry mauve]

taniks has a very interesting wheelchair

[empty fern]

Shut

He upgraded from the steel chair to the whee chair

[ember storm]

Belmon from Glassway has extra arms like Argos

https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/0/0f/Belmon1.jpg

[fiery copper]

quria and panoptes had hands

[ember storm]

they were barely bosses

[empty fern]

True

Wait

Oh I’m dumb

Argos is like the bigger belmon but they didn’t reuse assets

OOOO I COULD FIND AN ARGOS MODEL

[velvet flax]

Belmon is like a combination of Argos and the Undying Mind

Similar to Argos model but uses the same (but larger version) of the Undying Mind's shields

[empty fern]

What does undying mind look like again?

[fiery copper]

mossy iirc

[empty fern]

Was just a descendent hydra right?

With orange shield

[velvet flax]

Undying Mind

[empty fern]

I think the horns are for orange bars and above hydras

Also

[velvet flax]

Not all of them so

Do

[fiery copper]

yeah 100% not unique horns

[velvet flax]

Only Undying Mind and Templar do iirc

[fiery copper]

not unique, but not common

[velvet flax]

Both are also from D1 so it could be a D1 thing

[empty fern]

Y’all remember the harpy boss in that one d1 strike? With the rotating door room? What was that model

[velvet flax]

Theosyion

[empty fern]

Cause I feel like it was early model of gos and spire eye

[velvet flax]

Consecrated Mind has the same model but just has a ton of moss and stone on it

[fiery copper]

found this in google images

so i dont think its a d1 thing or a major thing

[empty fern]

Generic hydra

[fiery copper]

yeah

[fiery copper]

was responding to this

[empty fern]

Extremely generic, why is that a boss?

Ohhh wait

Is that the undying mind? Like how they did phogoth

[fiery copper]

d1 was different from d2 with health bars, that's basically the equivalent of an enemy with a three-segmented yellow healthbar in d2. they're rare, but they exist.

[fiery copper]

no

[empty fern]

Ah

Damn

[ember storm]

what do you mean like phogoth

[tawdry mauve]

god that is such an unfortunate name

[empty fern]

Was watching a d1 play though and they labeled phogoth as an ogre abomination

[velvet flax]

Was that from The Abomination Heist strike?

That's a Rise of Iron revamped version of the original D1 phogoth strike

[ember storm]

pretty sure revamped would be the unnamed ogre

[empty fern]

Ohhh

Ok

[true vault]

which raid bosses in all of destinys history turned into weapons?

[ember storm]

none

if i just remove your femur and put it on a shelf, it's not turning you into a shelf

[true vault]

omg

how do you become a splicer?

[ember storm]

a splicer is just a thing you do as a fallen

[echo fjord]

you get the title

[ember storm]

being a sacred splicer like mithrax is a lot more complicated and related to cultural things

regular splicers are just tech nerds who augment

[limpid flower]

yas

[true vault]

mithrax my beloved

[muted rune]

Not possible

Splicers are an endangered species

[short badge]

Why does the witness hate the traveler?

[dim minnow]

the Witness was likely the first race blessed by it, however, the Traveler never told them what to do

it wanted a purpose, which the Traveler would not provide, so it looked for one, that being the Final Shape

the Witness I believe also discovered something about how the Light can destory just as easily as it can create

[smoky rose]

The traveler's position is that given power people would choose to be good

The Witness' position is that giving these people power leads to chaos and a lot of pain

Basically since the traveler didn't offer any advice the Witness decided it would end that pain

Even if it meant literally editing the universe to create a perfect one, and then calcifying it into a final shape

The Traveler don't want that smoke though, so the Witness has been towing the Veil around trying to get access to 3D modeling software for billions/trillions of years.

And in Lightfall it finally pirated Fusion 360

[tropic pebble]

the ultra hydra

[smoky rose]

[slim perch]

these lights what is? just light?

[trim grotto]

pretty much

[fresh zephyr]

Does banshee have amnesia

[empty fern]

Definitely

No he probably won’t get to remember on his own

[fresh zephyr]

Does the vanguard also have darkness subclasses?

[empty fern]

Eris uses it, but I think others are still getting used to using not the light

[fresh zephyr]

What about the drifter and stranger? Do they use it?

[real ingot]

yes

Stasis

Osiris uses some form of Strand

though we've only seen him use it in minor amounts

[empty fern]

Ye

[torpid flint]

Did you just simply the fucked up story of the shapes and mega mind with 3D modeling?

[trim grotto]

Ikora has Strand. Otherwise no. Other Guardians do have Stasis and Strand, though.

[trim grotto]

There was a whole cutscene about that

[slim perch]

osiris teaches strand and stasis to cabal

[trim grotto]

Osiris hasn't used Stasis.

[smoky rose]

[slim perch]

pretty sure he's teaching it to cabal?

[trim grotto]

Saint-14: Ha, yes! He mentioned this at dinner. He says Caiatl reminds him of himself, which is one of Osiris's favorite compliments. 

Lord Saladin: I'll be it is. Caiatl took a long while to warm up, given the past, but I think she was able to see beyond her suspicions to the man himself. Did you know she asked Osiris to begin teaching the Cabal forces about the Darkness? She wants to understand Stasis and Strand. 

Saint-14: He neglected to mention that. It is... oddly humble of him not to brag. It is good to see everyone is growing. ```
Teaching them *about* the forces, not teaching them the forces themselves.

Very close though

[dull raft]

Caiatl with strand

[slim perch]

blade fury caiatl

[limpid flower]

savathun withbstrand

[sour galleon]

how did titan return\

[smoky rose]

I don't think its specified

Might be to do with the Planets encounter in Root of Nightmares

[real ingot]

If we're going off the cutscene after RoN we can assume they reappeared after Witness made the link or Nezarec was killed

[slim perch]

oryx glacial quake

[limpid flower]

nokris needlestorm

[rigid flower]

Iirc Osiris can still use light abilities, just not to their full extent?

[real ingot]

not that I've seen

[peak coral]

cant

no ghost no light

[sick yew]

^

[peak coral]

unless you mean like

light-light

flashlights etc

☠️

ok that was not funny

[sick yew]

Osiris can slightly weild Strand but thats because you do not need to be a lightbearer to do so

Same with Stasis

It is still very dangerous tho

[peak coral]

yeah we have non-lightbearers using stasis

ex. eris/exo stranger refer to bl trailer

[sick yew]

Eris does so too

But yeah as we saw in the training montage of Lightfall Strand can very easily be lethal so theres a good chance Osiris does not really use Strand at all

[rigid flower]

Doesn't Stasis specifically come from the crux's though? Outside of communing with the statue in the pyramid?

Both Elsie and Eramis use a crux for stasis.

[sick yew]

Mainly but it is still a natural power of the universe like Strand

It can be taught

Elsie specifically refuses to teach Ana Stasis in Dark Future since you can easily fall to the darkness/Witness if you do so

[rigid flower]

Yeah, I know that.

Especially since a bunch of guardians fell to the same fate.

[peak coral]

[sick yew]

Who are you referring to specifically?

[rigid flower]

In the dark future, majority of the guardians succumbed to the darkness from stasis and were part of Eris's army.

[sick yew]

Oh you meant Dark Future

ye

[rigid flower]

Yeah.

[peak coral]

in normal timeline the only "grahh stasis bad" guy is shayura

[sick yew]

Not anymore really

[peak coral]

not anymore

used to

[sick yew]

She has different problems now

Rip Reed

[rigid flower]

There were a lot of people who didn't like stasis.

[peak coral]

[peak coral]

oh yeah true

but they didnt kill people for using stasis

[sick yew]

You could almost say hes Reed-14 now
hehehe get it because he got cut in half making the 7 to 14

[rigid flower]

Hell the people of the last city are very skeptical about the vanguard because there are guardians using stasis and strand.

[rigid flower]

Fair.

[real ingot]

Alex can’t make good jokes

[peak coral]

reed 3.5

[sick yew]

She mainly hunted the fireteam she met in that specific Trials match

[blazing wasp]

Wouldn't it be 3.5

[peak coral]

average trials rager.

[rigid flower]

She's just jealous they had an op power at the time frfr.

[sick yew]

One of them being a Hunter who went exploring with that Dreg

[blazing wasp]

Truly a destiny player at heart

[sick yew]

Shayura do be representing the majority of the trials community

[real ingot]

Based Shayura

I’d kill someone if I was killed by a Revenant

[rigid flower]

"Waaahhh they froze me I'm gonna kill them now!"

[sick yew]

I'll never forget when someone seriously tried to tell me the Guardian Shayura killed in the smg loretab was Shin Malphur simply because the falvor text is a quote of his

She would have been dead before the thought of pulling the trigger had even crossed her mind if it really had been Shin

[blazing wasp]

Yea, she would be too busy monologing

[sick yew]

she might be a relatively skilled guardian but aint now way she stands a chance against Shin

[trim grotto]

Not to mention that the Guardian wasn't characterised anything like Shin

[sick yew]

The Hunter in question was a low level ngl

[grizzled zinc]

Shayura did.

Oop nvm

[grizzled zinc]

She’s also mentioned a handful of times in the season of the haunted trials armor iirc

[trim grotto]

only a little bit 🤏

[grizzled zinc]

Her jumpship was full of lightless ghosts she’d destroyed.

More than a bit.

[jolly vector]

then she get slapped in the face with a hive sentinel shield and have a mental breakdown

rip bozo

[sick yew]

What

Wdym

[grizzled zinc]

The trials armor has lore tabs.

[sick yew]

Yes I know

What about them

[grizzled zinc]

Iirc some are about shayura

[sick yew]

They're almost all about Shayura

[grizzled zinc]

i don have all of em’

[sick yew]

She's been the main character surrounding trials lore for over a year now

[trim grotto]

just a couple 🤏 murders

[sick yew]

I was making a different point
Which is that in the smg loretab she kills a hunter and someone tried to argue that hunter was Shin Malphur based purely on the fact that the smg's flavor text is a quote of his

[grizzled zinc]

🗿

[sick yew]

Which is stupid and nonsensical on multiple levels

[grizzled zinc]

🗿

Ok i agree.

[wheat latch]

Who's that

[grizzled zinc]

I actually no longer remember who shin malphur is other than: “he’s somewhat famous”

[wheat latch]

Marvelous

[jolly vector]

he's so cool every other hunter copied his super

[trim grotto]

The Man With The Golden Gun
Killer of Dredgen Yor, wielder of Thorn
Owner of Last Word

and much more

[wheat latch]

Like the bad thorn or current thorn

[sick yew]

Also Dredgen uuuuh what was his undercover name

[sick yew]

Bad thorn which is now Lumina

He gave the original thorn weapon of sorrow to us so we could purify it which we did creating lumina

[jolly vector]

the good ending thorn

[sick yew]

The other thorns are merely replicas and not even remotely as strong as the og

[wheat latch]

That was gonna be my next question lul

[sick yew]

[wheat latch]

Is there anything more about lumina's creation or is it just we purified it

I cannot type today sorry

[sick yew]

The quest itself goes rather deep into the concept of hope

And doing good

Noble deeds as it puts it

Basically doing what Rezyl Azzir aka Dredgen Yor before he was known as such was as a person

He was a Noble Titan who was very keen on doing good for other people

[wheat latch]

Oh so like to pay tribute to him we made lumina the way it is

[sick yew]

Which eventually lead him to the Moon where he fought the hive and would ultimately be tricked by the Hive Wizard who's name I have forgotten to put the relic onto his Rose

Which would then corrupt him turning the Rose into Thorn and Azzir into Yor

[wheat latch]

Rezyl Azzir is a cool name

[sick yew]

It is but I can never remember how it's written

[wheat latch]

How did the relic corrupt him and the gun

[sick yew]

Hive magic

It corrupted the gun and the gun corrupts its user

[wheat latch]

Ah, so og thorn corrupted the user as well?

[sick yew]

Which is why Thorn was so dangerous ontop of it obviously being a straight up Guardian killer since it drained their light on hit killing them permanently

[wheat latch]

Ouch

[sick yew]

Only the og one does that afaik

How the replicas work is kinda not defined at all

[wheat latch]

Just big poisonous thorn bullet

[sick yew]

Some lore hints to them just being fancy looking handcannons
Others make it seem like they do have light draining ish capabilities

[wheat latch]

Interesting

How does the thorn bullet fit down the barrel, I've always wondered

[sick yew]

It's not that big

Which doesn't make them less dangerous

[wheat latch]

Lol

[sick yew]

Maybe the bullets appear a bit bigger ingame idk but it works like any other gun

[wheat latch]

Fair nuff

Do boots of the assembler have any link to lumina?

[sick yew]

Not that I'm aware of

Makes no real sense either since we are the only person who has Lumina

There are no replicas since Lumina was directly shaped from purifying the og Thorn in that form only existed once

[jolly vector]

didnt we have the og thorn anyway?

[sick yew]

It's not like Suros Regime which canonically exists multiple times
Lumina is exclusive to us the player

[jolly vector]

cus killing xyor cut the link to the corruption

[sick yew]

Yes Shin gave it to us
We when purified it to create Lumina

[jolly vector]

so we can just use it normally

[sick yew]

That's not the og Thorn

That's a replica we made

Same way the Dredgens did

[jolly vector]

guess so the lore tabs is weird

[sick yew]

The og Thorn was in Shin Malphurs hands from the point he killed Yor until he gave it to us at the start of the Lumina quest

All other Thorns are replicas

Again how much power they hold is not really defined and can vary between loretabs

[jolly vector]

to be honest he was kind of a dumbass

[sick yew]

Who?

[jolly vector]

getting close to a witch while also having heavy ptsd

[sick yew]

Ah

[jolly vector]

and even using her consort bone to slap on the rose

[sick yew]

Well he was blinded by thd desire to do good

Which would ironically turn him to the opposite side

[jolly vector]

that's just asking to be possessed

[sick yew]

Also timeline wise I think it all happened before the great disaster
Meaning hive magic wasn't quite as understood and feared as afterwards

[sick yew]

The obsession with doing good blinded him from the potential danger
That's like his whole stick

[jolly vector]

wonder if we can interact with more interesting characters

the hype when osiris and saint was reveal was awesome

[ember storm]

we finally get to meet Randy

[jolly vector]

I have only see 2 and they both died already in 2 seasons

[fiery copper]

The season of dawn trailer is the best one ever made purely for the last 5 seconds

You just see a side profile of a vex walking towards a portal and then a spiked metal gauntlet comes through and punches it in the face

[velvet flax]

Season of the Lost is one of the best trailers imo

Especially the shot of 6 guardians using their supers next to each other

[fiery copper]

Nvm it wasn't just the last 5 seconds

https://youtu.be/iVZ-G88rOYg

About halfway through

And then they show him in Past Mercury

The fact that he became a permanent addition to the roster is fucking insane

Like it's genuinely awesome that THE SAINT 14 is just

A vendor

In the tower

People take him for granted as being someone who's "always been there"

He is absolutely cracked in lore

This man's neck is so strong he kills robots by headbutting them

[fiery copper]

Watching it rn and I don't think I've ever seen this, I think I purposefully avoided the lost trailer so that I could go in blind. I heard Sav was involved and wanted to be surprised

Which I absolutely was

[velvet flax]

Rip, tbh the Lost trailer doesn't show much

[grizzled zinc]

I have a sneaking suspicion that is definitely not how weapons of sorrow work

A rose bears many thorns.

I could be wrong, ik thorn is what became of rose.

[velvet flax]

It's confirmed they're all replicas including the Thorn we use

We are given the remains of the original and we turn it into Lumina

[fiery copper]

The OG thorn is now lumina

That is the entire point of its quest, cleansing the original weapon of sorrow and turning it into a "weapon of hope" as byf calls it

[velvet flax]

If we were using the original Thorn we'd be killing Guardians permanently all over the place

[fiery copper]

Yea

[velvet flax]

Byf 😭

[fiery copper]

Yea

I dont like him much anymore but weapon of hope is a good term for it

MareCog deserved better

[velvet flax]

I hate it when he comes up with these things that everyone thinks is true and then when bungie does something different everyone explodes

[fiery copper]

Fair

[velvet flax]

It'd be better if he advertised his theories or ideas as such rather than just saying stuff like weapon of hope

[fiery copper]

Weapon of hope is cool tho, as long as you also clarify its not a canon term and it's purely him

[fiery copper]

I dislike him because he nuked his discord for stupid reasons

But yeah his theories are

Wack

[velvet flax]

Byf was the reason a ton of people were talking about everyone being mind controlled in the last city due to the viral chant and a lot of people were disappointed when it didn't happen

[fiery copper]

And also not clarified to be theories

Lol what did he say that??

There's no way

[velvet flax]

Yeah I agree it sounds cool it'd be better if he advertised it

[fiery copper]

That's so stupid

[velvet flax]

It was ages ago (2 years since splicer oof) but I'm 99% sure it was him

[fiery copper]

People hate on evaze for being just absolutely out there with his theories but at least he explicitly says they're theories

[velvet flax]

Fair

It's his thumbnails that bother me

He changed the Witness one because it was so stupid

[fiery copper]

Yeah lolll

[velvet flax]

Wtf is this

I like myelin though

[fiery copper]

LOL I love that thumbnail

[analog torrent]

if lightbearer exos don't reboot, is there any occurence of an exo rebooting during the red war when they lost their light?

[fiery copper]

Not that I know of

Lightless guardians still retain some benefits

There's a lore tab of a titan holding up a collapsing building so that a group of civilians can get away

[slim perch]

well doesn’t the light still linger

basically ghosts kinda function like a battery

[fiery copper]

Somewhat

[slim perch]

store up a bunch of light then use it hence how it could do some stuff in the red war before regaining it all

[fiery copper]

We had health and shield regen when ghost found us before we got our light back

But that might be gameplay idk

[slim perch]

yeah

but I also recall something to do with revive mechanics in lore

[fiery copper]

No Rez For The Weary

[slim perch]

how ghosts would impart light to assist a revive in darkness zones

[fiery copper]

Ghost stories lore card

It's an in-universe theory from an unreliable narrator that people have taken as gospel

[outer dragon]

I wouldn't say gospel. Its the only lore we have that speculates on how the rez mechanism works in universe. Also I just want to know if the Guardian trapped was able to get free or not after the crash

[fiery copper]

We dont know

People have asked bungie for a follow up since THE DAY the almighty fell

[wheat latch]

Why is our ghost just "ghost"

[tawdry mauve]

Because he wants to be

[ember storm]

the same reason your guardian is just guardian

give them whatever name you want

also there’s a lot of ghosts just named ghost

[wheat latch]

Bruce and Alfred it is

[ember storm]

obviously our guardian has the self agency of a house plant so we never named him

[tawdry mauve]

altough cannonically we are just young wolf and ghost

or little light

[ember storm]

little light is just a nickname Elsie gave him and we jokingly called him once

[wheat latch]

If we had killed our ghost in lf would we have just been screwed

[smoky rose]

Yes

[wheat latch]

Did the cloud strider understand that? Is that why they grabbed it before we did shoot it

[fiery copper]

Because bungie doesn't want to make a Nolan North vocaloid purely so that we can have whatever name we want

[fiery copper]

Yes

Also it's dumb as hell that we were even considering shooting our ghost

WE HAVE A GRAPPLE HOOK

PULL YOUR MANS TO YOU

IF YOU CANT DO THAT THEN GRAPPLE UP AND TACKLE HIM LIKE NIMBUS DID

[wheat latch]

Haha

But final shape

[proven hazel]

I js got lightfall like a couple days ago wtf is going on with the story it makes no sense to me

[wheat latch]

Have you done all the story prior?

[proven hazel]

not fully yet, just through the first few but I have absolutely no idea what's going on at all

[fiery copper]

Don't worry it isn't you being dumb, the story just makes no sense.

[wheat latch]

I mean like at least all of wq

[tawdry mauve]

Well to be fair

for as convoluted as lightfall is

[fiery copper]

MyNameIsByf has a video on everything that came out before Shadowkeep, which coincidentally is the oldest dlc you can still play :)

[tawdry mauve]

you also hadnt done the prior stories

so even if the lightfall story was really good

you would not understand it

[fiery copper]

Seasonal stories aren't in the game except for those from the current year, unfortunately

[worthy monolith]

is the spider just a bloated fallen or

[tawdry mauve]

he is fat

[slim elk]

Don't worry
General sentiment in the community is the Lightfall campaign writing absolutely sucked

[worthy monolith]

also who is he related to

[proven hazel]

what are the prior stories?

[fiery copper]

But you can @ me and I'll explain a season to the best of my ability

[tawdry mauve]

everything from d1 till now

all the previous campaigns

[fiery copper]

His brother was the boss of Niobe Labs, and he's also the one who caused Scourge of the Past

[tawdry mauve]

spider is fat because he likes eating food

[fiery copper]

Honda Siviks, Kell's Scourge

[proven hazel]

I started playing in taken king but stopped in curse of osiris and came back in shadowkeep

[worthy monolith]

wait rlly

[worthy monolith]

wish i couldve been around for niobe labs

[fiery copper]

Spider and Siviks were also in Misraaks' pirate crew back when he was a ruthless asshole, until said asshole marooned them on an asteroid in the reef.

[fiery copper]

I never did it LOL

[wheat latch]

I wouldn't say the lf story was "bad" just stretched out way too much

[fiery copper]

Lightfall was bad, yes.

[tawdry mauve]

well yeah you missed everything in between

[worthy monolith]

apparently it was on par with the outbreak quest from d1

arguably better

bring back forge weaps

that i never had in the first place but yeah bring em back

[jolly vector]

ah yes I still remembered having to farm leviathan intro all the time for the forge weapons crafting

[proven hazel]

outbreak quest in d1 was really good fs

[wheat latch]

Why do y'all think lf was so bad

[worthy monolith]

writing

[proven hazel]

the nimbus guy pisses me off

[worthy monolith]

rohan dies and ninbus is cheerful a splisecond later

[wheat latch]

Elaborate please, I'm curious

[worthy monolith]

rohan dies with sad music

its like the one guy from shrek holding up the sign

[tawdry mauve]

Nimbus is nb

[worthy monolith]

telling us to cry

[fiery copper]

I have a Blast Furnace I like to call the Long Fucken Pulse because it has 98 range.

[tawdry mauve]

no?

thats not true

[proven hazel]

what does nb mean?

[fiery copper]

I had a 100 range one, but I deleted the wrong one cleaning out my vault :(

Non binary

[ember storm]

you really don’t

[fiery copper]

Does not conform to the "either male or female" concept

[worthy monolith]

he asks you to bring his core and then you go back to striders gate and hes all giddy

[fiery copper]

Anywhere from "somewhere in the middle" to "both" to "none" to "a third gender" or any combination of those

[worthy monolith]

whys that

[wheat latch]

Grief isn't always expressed by tears

[ember storm]

it was awful

also yeah it was directly addressed in the machine gun quest

[tawdry mauve]

not only that but we do see them* grieve later during the exotic mission

[ember storm]

Nimbus was trying to completely ignore their grief with work

[jolly vector]

no need for tears, but also no need for some dumbass jokes

[fiery copper]

Nimbus doesn't cope healthily with loss, which crying is a part of.

[worthy monolith]

real

[tawdry mauve]

different people cope in different ways

[jolly vector]

cope in a way that makes the writing better

[tawdry mauve]

??

[worthy monolith]

apparently if you sit by nimbus for an hour with max volume you get a secret dialogue

[wheat latch]

That's just not fair to the writing or the character lol

[fiery copper]

I think nimbus cracking jokes to cope is in character, and it's directly addressed IN THE QUEST that it's not healthy and that he needs to grieve.

[ember storm]

funnily enough, hiding behind a layer of wisecracking is literally the exact same thing Cayde did constantly

[jolly vector]

and was the reason he was killed off

[tawdry mauve]

cayde and nimbus are so similliar when people tell me they hate nimbus but like cayde blows my mind

[ember storm]

no, it was also intentional

[jolly vector]

intentionally bad

[fiery copper]

Lightfall was trying for a cheesy sci fi movie vibe

[ember storm]

Cayde’s normal dialogue compared to Cayde recording his death messages is pretty clear

[fiery copper]

It didn't really work or fit

But Rohan dying was part of that attempt

[slim elk]

The whole tone of Lightfall campaign was off... Nimbus was just the biggest offender of it

[worthy monolith]

atrocious attempt at trying to get emotion out of the audience

[ember storm]

the premise just wasn’t solid enough for everything else to work off of

[worthy monolith]

he spoke like three times

[ember storm]

emotional character moments would work if the stakes were actually set up properly

[fiery copper]

No, the Mentor's Sacrifice is in a lot of early scifi

[ember storm]

which they weren’t

so Osiris just comes off as incredibly whiney

[fiery copper]

The most well known example is obi wan in a new hope

[worthy monolith]

yeah but usually u form a connection w them lol

[fiery copper]

Yeah

[fiery copper]

Like I said

[worthy monolith]

theyre not comparable

[fiery copper]

They are because one was an attempt to emulate the other

And you can compare them to say "this is what they were going for and it turned out shit"

Which is what I'm trying to get across

[ember storm]

phantom menace was funny

[fiery copper]

Oh I love the prequels

Only half ironically

[ember storm]

it’s really the only movie where the politics work for me

[worthy monolith]

no theyre not comparable in the way that you actually had a character w screen time and connections to the story

and the other well

[ember storm]

taxation leads to war

[worthy monolith]

didnt

[ember storm]

it’s incredibly realistic

[fiery copper]

Ok
I'm not arguing that, and I agree 10000%.
I'm saying thats what bungie was trying to go for
And it didn't work
BECAUSE of what you mention, not having a connection.

It's like

You can compare temtem to pokemon, because they're both cartoony monster collector games. Are they the same thing? No. Do they have their own merits and flaws? Yes. Are they similar enough that you can draw lines between them and connect some dots? Absolutely.

(IM NOT SAYING TEMTEM IS TRYING TO RIP OFF OF POKEMON, I LOVE TEMTEM)

[ember storm]

I don’t know what that is

[fiery copper]

A cartoony monster collector game

[wheat latch]

What about the other aspects of lf, neomuna and its people, their technology, the discovery of strand and Osiris' work with it and with us

[fiery copper]

It's also an MMO

[worthy monolith]

i love neomuna and the lore around it

solely the campaign and a few other minor things just couldve been a lot better

[fiery copper]

Not expanded upon enough imo, but I like the tidbits we got. Osiris' explanation of the elements is amazing, and I'm finally glad that non-nerds are finally getting some deep lore ingame.

[worthy monolith]

veil containment is still going

i like that

[ember storm]

Is it the one with guns

[fiery copper]

No

That's a different one

[worthy monolith]

calus was a pushover tho lol

ig it fits his character

[fiery copper]

That's Palworld

Temtem is a non-satirical monster collector.

[wheat latch]

I'm just confused why people hate lf so much if there's all this awesome new stuff with it, sure people can be mad abt nimbus but they weren't 100% of the campaign

[ember storm]

literally the only reason lf went the way it did was because he sat on his ass and didn’t want to do his job

[fiery copper]

The main campaign is the most important part.

[ember storm]

all he wanted was an easy life on the winning team but then he got pissy when the witness actually expected him to do things

legitimately perfect for his character

[fiery copper]

People who aren't already interested in the lore aren't going to want to look deeper, and it just stains the rest of the game as well.

Gameplay wise, lightfall is phenomenal.

[worthy monolith]

agreed

qol changes were good

[smoky rose]

Narrative delivery.

[ember storm]

you know what baffles me

[worthy monolith]

commendations were a flop

[fiery copper]

Storywise, which tbh I care about even more than the game at this point, it is a TRAVESTY.

[worthy monolith]

intention was good

[smoky rose]

They didn't tell us enough for us to care in the campaign itself

[worthy monolith]

delivery bad

[fiery copper]

I like commendations :)

[worthy monolith]

commendation and farming shouldnt be in the same sentence

[fiery copper]

I would make improvements thoufh

[wheat latch]

Could you expand on this

[smoky rose]

This is the fundamental problem. What they've told us in the last month would have changed (almost) everything for lightfall as a campaign

[ember storm]

that’s exactly the issue

nothing was expanded upon

the veil was just there and the witness made the portal and we knew nothing else

[fiery copper]

1. You can only get commendation points if you also commend someone

2. You can commend people even if they leave, as long as they leave after the activity is fully over. Like, during the "return to orbit in" countdown is showing in a seasonal activity.

[ember storm]

you think they’d at least go into depth about tormentors once

they’re in the art

[smoky rose]

Basically the entire campaign is Osiris screaming at us to chase the macguffin without explaining what it is or why its important (despite clearly knowing both answers)

[worthy monolith]

commendation cooldown of like 10 mins or smth

so they dont farm wellspring

they fixed it tho

ik

[fiery copper]

Tbh if the amount of points needed is kept at reasonable levels

[smoky rose]

Instead we find out the shit we needed to know in the campaign 4 months later behind another 10 dollar paywall

[fiery copper]

If someone wants to grind Friendship Points, why is that a problem?

[worthy monolith]

"we are running out of time‼️‼️‼️🗣️🗣️🔥⁉️"

we must reach the radial mast!!!!

[smoky rose]

Now look personally I have deluxe so the additional paywall doesn't affect me

[fiery copper]

The new(kinda) lightfall mission is part of the base expansion of lightfall, it just launched IN season of the deep.

[smoky rose]

But it affects a lot of people

[smoky rose]

But it doesn't explain anything we need to know about Lightfall (and still 4 months later lel)

[fiery copper]

Yep lol

[smoky rose]

The Witness cutscene is what we needed

[wheat latch]

Are you sure they knew that info at the time of those missions?

[smoky rose]

He certainly acts like it

[slim elk]

Lightfall's campaign was full of plot holes, refusal to explain anything and Osiris screaming didn't help

[fiery copper]

Remember that time bungie said they were going to explain the veil, and then they didn't explain the veil

And then they said they were going to explain the veil, and then they didn't explain the veil

[smoky rose]

In the first 5 minutes he's screaming at us to go stop the witness from linking with the veil because otherwise we are all doomed

[fiery copper]

Good times

[smoky rose]

REMINDER that at this point in time even Calus doesn't know that the Witness wants him to link with the veil

[wheat latch]

We knew what the use for the radial mast was, just not the specifics behind it yet, but the witness is not good so stopping what he wants to do is probably in our best interest. That's how I saw it

[slim elk]

The irony is the Veil logs aren't even talking much about the Veil either

More Neomuna itself

Even had whole log on SIVA

[worthy monolith]

the collective

[jolly vector]

they literally could've said idk what the veil is but calus is looking for it so it must be important

[smoky rose]

Real shit

[jolly vector]

that's it instead of acting like they knows shit

[peak coral]

the whiteness

[smoky rose]

But no we get this immediately in the first mission

[wheat latch]

Haha, thanks, didn't realize that misspell

[slim elk]

The Witness origins cutscene gave us more info on the Veil then anything thus far lol
Winnower=Veil

Or for those being pedantic.. the Veil is closest thing to the Winnower concept as the source of darkness equivalent to the Traveler

[wheat latch]

Telling the people who are supposed to look up to you that you don't know what to do does not seem like the best course of action

[worthy monolith]

witness is a child of the darkness

wasnt that said in altar of reflection

its true

so

[smoky rose]

Doesn't make it the winnower if Unveiling is propaganda from the Witness

If unveiling is 100% real canon lmao (which its not, bungie themselves confirmed that Unveiling is from the witness) then sure, its the winnower

[worthy monolith]

i actually doubt that theres a "gardener" in the traveler

that would mean the veil would have its own entity

the traveler is just a machine god i think

[ember storm]

the gardener was never said to be inside

the traveler was said to be the gardener in a simpler reduced form

basically like jesus if my Bible lore is correct

[worthy monolith]

will savathicc become an ally or just an enemy of our enemy

knowing her prob the latter

[slim elk]

Thus my pedantic statement lol

Either way. Veils the source of darkness equivalent to Traveler being source of Light

[ember storm]

she’s never going to become a friend if that’s what you’re asking

[worthy monolith]

well yeah shes killed however many of our kind so

but would she work with us or alone and against the witness

working with us doesnt necessarily mean that shed do it willingly

[ember storm]

that was sort of the entire point of WQ

Savathun’s plan against the Witness would ensure her own safety and doom literally everybody else

since we ruined basically everything for her and severely pissed her off I doubt she’s going to be scrambling to work together

the only agreement she’d make would be one through gritted teeth

[worthy monolith]

my guess would be we just revive her in a cocoon like state similar to season of the lost

and just access her memories

[smoky rose]

She's a lightbearer

[worthy monolith]

season of risen 2.0

[slim elk]

Godzilla threshold has been crossed
Everyone needs to work together or the Witness wins...

Game over for everyone else

Can see the Vex assisting us over the current threat

[worthy monolith]

vex only care abt their own survival so i doubt it

weve yet to meet a friendly vex if im aware

aside from asher which doesnt rlly count

[slim elk]

You just said the main point of mine lol

The Vexs own survival is at risk due to the Witness

Already seen them willing to step aside and let guardians handle a problem for them in D1

[worthy monolith]

when the vault got taken over?

taken and wolves

[slim elk]

Yep
Let us into the Vault with no issue

[worthy monolith]

we need vex dialogue

what would they sound like tho

weve heard almost every faction with dialogue to some degree

[jolly vector]

you hear it all the time

just grunting sounds and shit

[worthy monolith]

its noises

yeah

[jolly vector]

remember they are just a liquid

[worthy monolith]

true

[jolly vector]

they just comunicate from the consensus

[worthy monolith]

one of the minds maybe

idk

[jolly vector]

I mean if bungo want us to talk to one I guess we'll know

[slim elk]

Alas... we deal with the dead air

[dawn vapor]

Who is cayde-6?

[tawdry mauve]

old hunter vanguard

shot by uldren

[dawn vapor]

why is he so important? he was being talked about on the tower

[tawdry mauve]

he was the hunter vanguard bruh

he was very important

[dawn vapor]

the hunter vangaurd?

[tawdry mauve]

yes the hunter vanguard

he was

https://www.destinypedia.com/Cayde-6#/media/File:Cayde6gifbox.gif

he was around since d1 y1 to forsaken

where he died

[dawn vapor]

how did he die if every gaurdian has a ghost?

[tawdry mauve]

ghosts dont make you unkillable

especially when your ghost gets shot

or if youre killed by a weapon of sorrow like thorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vCM5QisTJE&t=6s

[ember storm]

ghosts can die

there’s also certain things that just kill a guardian permanently

[dawn vapor]

oh well i mean there is a like mission where you kill i think hive ghosts

[tawdry mauve]

yeah that is the entire witch queen campaign

[dawn vapor]

oh yeah that i didnt buy that dlc

[ember storm]

that’s basically everything on the throne world

you can just find them on patrol

[dawn vapor]

ohh okay yeah i was just wondering cause of the messages in the tower thanks!

[tawdry mauve]

the ace of spades we can use in game was caydes gun custom built by banshee

speaking of which always found it kinda poetic how cayde was searching for however made him an exo all his lives and his close friend in the tower was technically the one responsible all this time

[smoky rose]

Baller ass cutscene btw

[tawdry mauve]

thanks

[worthy monolith]

that doesnt explain us getting killed by that in crucible and getting res

or is crucible not canon

[tawdry mauve]

Crucible is simulated

Afaik

[worthy monolith]

makes sense

wait but weapons of sorrow negate ghosts abilities or smth

didnt know that was a thing

[tawdry mauve]

They drain your light

So jaren ward was killed by yor

But jarens ghost is still alive

So is yors actually

But he refuses to rez him

[worthy monolith]

bc they arent lightbearers?

anymore

interesting

[tawdry mauve]

No

Because they are dead

Yor was just killed by a golden gun

Jaren had his light drained

[worthy monolith]

so are the ghosts rogue?

[tawdry mauve]

No

Jarens ghost litterally cannot revive him

Yors refuses to

[worthy monolith]

yeah but like why tho

[tawdry mauve]

Read up on yor

You would see why his ghost wouldnt revive him

[worthy monolith]

ik hes like a real bad dude

thats abt it

[tawdry mauve]

Yeah

Thats why his ghost wouldnt revive him

[fiery copper]

if you had the power to resurrect a serial killer, who you knew would go right back to killing innocent people, you probably wouldn't do it

[outer dragon]

Same reasoning used by Fynch to not rez his Lucent Lightbearer

That any time i visit the Throne World I teabag as a sign of respect

[grand jungle]

how is oryx size of a titan but xivu n sav are normal?

[tawdry mauve]

because he made himself big in his throne world

then he died

so he stayed big

we has bite sized during regicide

[grand jungle]

oh do they all hv they own throne world?

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/oryx-taking-himself-destiny-oryx-taken-king-gif-17498021

Not too big, about the size if not smaller than savathun

[smoky rose]

Yes

The Dreadnought was Oryx's throne world

He did some magic and made his throne world physical

[grand jungle]

wait the thing in driftrs ship?

[empty fern]

No

That’s some space dust the nine left behind

[outer dragon]

That is a pocket dimension given to him by the 9 where he pulls his faken from.

[exotic cloak]

What is the situation between the gods/high ranks of the hive? I have not been able to buy the BP but it seems that they are going to revive Savathun, Is Savathun just going to tell Xivu Arath and the other gods/high rankers of the hive that we are in danger and it's time to team up?

Or is it just each one on their own?

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath is working for the Witness
As for Savathun, we are told that in order to follow the Witness through the Traveler portal, we need to revive her

[exotic cloak]

Thanks, But in the hypothetical case that we can revive Savathun and somehow tell her to work with us, can't we tell her to get help of other hive gods? Are there still hive gods that we know of?

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath will not help us under ANY circumstance

in fact, Xivu actively despises Savathun for what she has been doing

[exotic cloak]

Oh

[dim minnow]

Oryx is dead

they are pretty much the only real Hive gods

[exotic cloak]

Thanks for the explanation

[dim minnow]

the rest are either dead or not really important (even then they wouldn't help us)

we probably won't even really call ourselves allies to Savathun

though I would like to see us summon Alak-Hul to fight alongside us