📚lore-discussion

[tulip knoll]

Earthquake subclass

Since that follows it

[chrome fog]

Void

Since the creation of wells of massive potential energy allow for sudden change in momentum and therefore, kinetic energy

[tulip knoll]

Just so I’m on the right track, the new cutscene confirms the witness was speaking the whole time and that the veil is the winnower right?

In unveiling

[chrome fog]

Yes, we assumed as much but couldn’t really say anything else as Unveiling was our only source on the creation of the universe

Inspiral and many other pieces of lore have informed us of what potentially happened, and then Ahsa stated it clearly for us what happened

I in particular and a handful of regulars had been theorycrafting what the story behind the Witness could have really been

[dim minnow]

I know I was the one who was always saying that the Veil was the Winnower, but the cutscene does leave room for some other possibilities

[tulip knoll]

Looking back before we were enlightened, it’s amazing how complicated it was and then ahsa simplified it so much that it’s crazy how we could only speculate as long as we did

[dim minnow]

it just ruled out that the Witness was the Winnower during the events of Unveiling

[real ingot]

simple answer we didn't expect

[chrome fog]

There were simple answers, but the number of them simply made it hard to track

The different possible ways the Witness could be the Winnower and the ways it could not be were too great, though gradually we got information on what the truth was

[steel nova]

So, the veil is ||traveler, but dark||?

[real ingot]

Winnower

[chrome fog]

Which is the Traveler/Gardener but Darkness

Unveiling and Alphi Lupi show them doing a but bit of each other’s jobs, and Ahsa calling the Traveler “Gardener” insinuates that the Veil is the Winnower, her companion entity

[smoky rose]

Dova did you see what I said about Unveiling factoring in other timelines

[dim minnow]

no

[smoky rose]

Okay so hear me out

Unveiling is an Allegory, at least according to Inspiral. Now, it also lines up with the Witness' actions and phrasing (excluding I/we stuff). Now how does that reconcile. Well we have time loops and alternate timelines in destiny

Is Elsie the only one?

I'd argue not

Well probably not

[fiery copper]

Haven't done the mission yet, and the server mute ran out of time

So I guess I know what the cutscene is now

Oh well

[unreal tulip]

What's up w the whale? Ik its some sort of banished worm of the sort but y is it a whale and y is it banished?

[golden wolf]

is xeno good for dps?

[fiery copper]

Maybe I'll do it in the next 24 hours

(I wont)

[unreal tulip]

Wrong channel

[golden wolf]

right, my b

[fiery copper]

Pinged you in #✨destiny-discussion

[golden wolf]

saw it, thanks

[chrome fog]

In vanilla D2 before the destinations got Taken in Arrivals, Titan had a serpent surface from the methane ocean and had a silhouette outside the windows of the Lost Sectors (which had you go deeper into the arcology under the ocean level)
This season we learn that her name is Ahsa and may be related to the Worms, with some theories every speculating she’s the same race as the Leviathan on Fundament

[dim minnow]

one of the new ghost shells from this season already explained her origins

she is essentially ||what the Krill are to the Hive, but to the Worm Gods||

a ||proto-worm god|| if you will

[chrome fog]

I’ve also been of the same thought of her being what the Worms were before accepting the Darkness

[tender cove]

So the race that created the witness asked for guidance, meaning in the universe. Do humans not ask for the same or they are ok living without meaning?

[dim minnow]

we kind of created our own meaning

basically Manifest Destiny 2.0

[lyric bough]

He said the thing

THATS THE NAME OF THE GAME

[real ingot]

[dim minnow]

or as they would say:
"We stared out at the galaxy and knew that it was our destiny to walk in the light of other stars"

this is the Speaker's monologue about the Golden Age by the way from the intro cutscene

[tender cove]

I mean we're always in Sol :/

[lyric bough]

Is eternity in Sol?

[dim minnow]

Eternity seems to be in the IX Realms

[lyric bough]

i demand more nine lore and seasons

[tender cove]

As far as moon and planets go I think they're all in Sol. Maybe they'll go to other star systems eventually.

[dim minnow]

the idea was that Humanity would go far beyond Sol, but the Collapse happened before we could make it that far

[slim elk]

It does seem Traveler stayed with the Witness species the longest.
They made the pyramids while Traveler was still around, humanity didnt get to that level

[dim minnow]

hmmm

makes me wonder if Resonance is even Darkness at all

[slim elk]

The cutscene did heavily imply they also saw what the Light could do if it was turned to destructive uses...

[dim minnow]

think of Nightmares and Memories

both are forms of Deepsight, but are basically opposites

[real ingot]

If I had to guess what happened to the first species is why it never wished to stay afterwards

[dim minnow]

Nightmares are formed from negative things like doubt, fear, trauma
Memories are a more true representation of what they portray

[real ingot]

They became infatuated with the dark

or

purpose

The Gardener believes if it stays things will repeat

[slim elk]

They sought meaning in a meaningless universe

There's the Final Shape right there, Witness is gonna try to impose its will over everyone and everything

[dim minnow]

and this week's lore entry brings up an interesting question, was the entirety of the Witness' species actually unitied in this?

[real ingot]

Considering everything

Maybe

what if the statues in his ship were those that refused

what if they are simply corpses

[tender cove]

The Witness can't provide a meaning but it can remove the need for one. No one to ask for a meaning hence it's not needed.

[slim elk]

As it stands.. yes
But what do you think it's doing inside the Traveler?

[tender cove]

Visiting Cayde

[chrome fog]

We’ve already come to this conclusion prior to WWII, Nietzsche realized later in his career that because life has no meaning we can assign our own meaning to our own lives

[chrome fog]

If it’s plan goes through it can set a purpose for all existence, one that matches its “survival of the fittest” mentality

[fresh zephyr]

Did Mara sov die during the events of taken king?

[dim minnow]

yes

she also died again between the events of Forsaken and Shadowkeep

[fresh zephyr]

So how is she alive again?

[dim minnow]

she had a Throne World

we've been there too

[fresh zephyr]

Did uldren also die in the events of the taken king and come back during forsaken?

[dim minnow]

no, he survived and crashed on Mars

and to answer any other questions you may have about Mara Sov's Throne World...

[tender cove]

that's not really a meaning, is it though.

[dim minnow]

Her Throne World was called Elusinia (which is hwere we are in Shattered Throne) and it was created through both Ahamkara and Techeun magic which means she did not use the Sword Logic at all essentially proving that a Throne World can be made for the Light

[chrome fog]

The point is you make the meaning

[tender cove]

from what I can tell the witness is against existence altogether

[chrome fog]

No one else decides it for you

[dim minnow]

Witness made its own meaning you know

it's just that meaning was the Final Shape

hmmm

I wonder if one of the entries in Inspiral is meant to portray the Witness discovering the concept of the Final Shape via the Veil

maybe Unveiling is what the Witness discovered through the Veil

keep in mind that our version of Unveiling was transcribed by Eris so it isn't technically the original version of the text

[tender cove]

It's a pursuit/goal not a meaning. I am considering Witness to be a philosophical pessimist who is looking to eradicate suffering in the universe by turning the universe into an uninhabitable "Final Shape".

[torpid flint]

Wait

That’s her throne world?

Goddam is it big

[torpid flint]

So a nihilist who believes they’re superior enough to have a grip on the way life works

[dim minnow]

the name of the dungeon makes much more sense given that detail

[dim minnow]

keep in mind the Winnower is probably not even sentient

hmmm

ok, just remembered something

there is a very easy way the Witness could of figured out the origin of the universe (essentially part of what Unveiling details)

[tender cove]

Nihilism is a part of it I suppose.

[dim minnow]

the whole akahisic record theory implied by some recent lore seems to show us how the Witness would know about Unveiling

[torpid flint]

Winnowner can probably perceive things

[chrome fog]

Let me dump a little of what we discussed in the Cryptarchy

And now to go back to my messages and pull my Akashic record theory

[quasi sleet]

traveler "gardener" gave gifts not guidance, I could see the tone being that of being victimized by not having proper guidance. witness could be optimistic about destroying life though.

[little gorge]

doesn't it call them victims of the witness?

[quartz ledge]

for that last part, the cutscene mentioned something about controlling reality when the traveler veil link is made, so the final shape seems to be the union of light and dark, so its a decent chance that either everyone will get to decide reality, or after the witness gains that ability, will do out with desire, as they said, they are done with death, what they want is salvation, by destroying everything the witness wouldnt abide by this, my guess is that the witness with either grant everyone the ultimate form of paracausality, where you completely control cause and effect, or remove desire from existence after gaining the former

[little gorge]

"they brought the veil back to the gardener, in an attempt to strengthen their connection, there, they could reshape reality itself"

[quartz ledge]

yea that

so idea is just, either the witness gets rid of desire, or the witness makes everything completely acausal

cant destroy everything because of the no more death quote

i mean it might be able to do an atheon and remove everything from ever existing

but yeah

[little gorge]

the traveller represents reality as is, and the veil represents reality as desired

and their connection (aka the portal), is all of paracausality

[drifting pond]

i wonder how ahsa knows all this

[patent swallow]

what are the big main Fallen houses now besides Light and Salvation?

[sick yew]

Dusk

And thats it

And Dusk is more just a stand in so that we have stuff to shoot

Its not really a house

[real ingot]

A house in name only

[sick yew]

I mean go to the EDZ and Cosmodrome and any Fallen you see is house Dusk

They just have essentially no lore relevance

I guess they did back in Beyond Light since house Salvation was trying to recruit them

But thats about it

[chrome fog]

I’m not playing the moral relativism game, they committed mass genocide on a universal scale because the giant ball that gave them gifts wouldn’t talk

[chrome fog]

You’re correct that the Final Shape will be determined through a combination of Light and Dark, but the Witness is not going to make it so that anyone or anything can freely make reality as they’d want it, they seek to create reality as they want

[chrome fog]

She’s of a race of beings that predates the Worm Gods, with the Worms being a divergent subgroup; think how the Krill became the Hive, same thing happened with the Worm Gods

[torpid flint]

funny when you simply D2 lore

[chrome fog]

mfw players keep adopting the fatalistic ideals and notions of the enemy who embody a toxic perspective of the issue of no inherent meaning of life, when we play a faction whose literal power is to make their own Destiny, own meaning out of the universe that cannot care nor spite us as it is simply the space we live in and any meaning we assign to our lives - whilst arbitrary - is our own and should be highly regarded for being so

Any more of this Reddit-pulled nonsense and I’m going to be disappointed even further

Gardener freely gave gifts out of its own volition, that does not mean we are entitled to a meaning to life from it, anymore so than your grandma who gave you socks or $20 for Christmas is responsible for planning out your job career into success

[sick yew]

Great point
However I have a new exotic and that Dreg in the EDZ looks like the perfect test candidate

[chrome fog]

[ember storm]

epic rap battles of history

house of dusk wretch

vs

celestial nighthawk

[chrome fog]

Ultimately these gifts are an investment to see what you will do in the future, what you will do when given support, and to tell you what to do defeats that goal; Unveiling says as much as the Gardener’s wish

Anyways I’m done with that

[sick yew]

Epic rap battles of history
EDZ Dreg
vs
Incoming Eyes of Tomorrow Airstrike

[ember storm]

the only time people used eyes of tomorrow in pve

[chrome fog]

EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORYYYYYY
HOUSE DUSK HATCHLING
VS
20 GJALLERHOOOOOORRNNNSSSSBEGIN

CLOVIS BRAY
VS
FINAL SHAPE CAAAAAYYYDDEEE

[sick yew]

fallen shank vs Svathuns Worm, fully powered up flying towards them at

[chrome fog]

THE WITNESS
VS
RANDAL THE GUARDIAN

[sick yew]

Randal the Vandal solos every content in the game

[chrome fog]

I’m just realizing, it can be Xivu announcing these battles because she’s always in all caps

[pine lion]

LoreKeepers, I have an Inquiry

[ember storm]

is it a reasonable one

[pine lion]

Should be

Is the witness just an amalgamation combination of his Race from that once recent cinematic?

It shows that his people threw their siphoned souls and it formed the witness

[chrome fog]

Their race

And yes, amalgamation

As the cutscene showed

[slim elk]

Yeah..
So when the Witness is using "we".. it's literal

Suspect their may be a "central" personality guiding the whole amalgamation of course. Probably which one of them had first contact with the Veil

[torpid flint]

I do find it funny that people want to relate and feel bad for the Hive. The only faction that really deserves sympathy atm, is the fallen

[torpid flint]

I just rolled a perfect roll and now it’s time for that Dreg to meet the grand servitor!

[quartz ledge]

my only issue is 2 things, one, the witness' dialogue at the end of witch queen seems to contradict this with the whole no more life no more death line with the traveler, two, as implied by the former discussion, the witness intends to close the gap between reality as is and reality as desired for presumably all based on the former rant

also

to that one consensus who was arguing that the witness was the winnower, and not a collective species

ggs

[chrome fog]

The Hive do have a Shakespearean tragedy tinge to their history, one riddled with a tragedy of errors, but they have committed themselves wholly to this path even after questioning if the way they did things was the right thing
It’s understandable to have empathy for them but at the same time they have to be held responsible for the crimes they have committed

[chrome fog]

It can very well be it is referring to Life and Death as we know it now, returning it to how it should be without Paracausality

[chrome fog]

Until recently it was very ambiguous what the answer truly was; there’s also a real chance that the Winnower was never the way it is described and it is simply a title for an idealized version of the Gardener the Witness made up

[neon walrus]

that little cutscene from this week had more storytelling than the entire lightfall campaign

[chrome fog]

Man

Its like there were real life reasons why they struggled with Lightfall and literally stated they were going to compensate for the disappointing narrative through supplemental lore throughout the seasons leading up to Final Shape because they themselves were not entirely satisfied with how the narrative ended up and wish to rectify that issue

I’m going to copy this for the next time

[quartz ledge]

ik, just messing

[quartz ledge]

by removing all paracausality, wouldnt that just make the gap wider?

[chrome fog]

Not to itself

It’ll be able to recreate reality as it desires, not that it cares for anyone else because they see us as deluded by the hope of making this life work out in spite of the struggles it comes with

[quartz ledge]

hm

[chrome fog]

They don’t care for their disciples nor for anyone they have used for their plans

[quartz ledge]

the witness' goal is the final shape which it is implied to have learned from the veil

and the cutscene implies the veil is the winnower

why would the veil choose something the witness specifically wants?

[pine lion]

Huh, I never actually heard the witness say “we” Ima rewatch all witness dialogue and like cinematics

[chrome fog]

Actually the opposite; they sought the Veil when the Gardener/Traveler didn’t give them any answers and only found the power of Darkness, but still had no answer. They decided to take things into their own hands and tried to merge the two together and do what it’s done in Lightfall, but the Traveler didn’t want that. That’s why she ran away

[quartz ledge]

every scene where it refers to itself, like when it uses your ghost to talk in shadowkeep and that one scene in witch queen

[chrome fog]

Veil gave them gifts just like the Gardener/Traveler, but still no concrete “purpose”

[quartz ledge]

could i ask where you got that idea from though?

it never said anything about them not finding purpose in the dark

[chrome fog]

The cutscene itself says as much

They learned Darkness but the Veil still did not provide an answer for the meaning of life

[quartz ledge]

about the traveler, yes, but it barely mentions the veil other than what was done with it

ah

okay never noticed that

[pine lion]

With this new cinematic, now I can understand what he might be talking about

[quartz ledge]

one sec ima rewatch it

[slim elk]

Yeah. What exactly the Veil showed was unsaid

But did show that there was nothing behind the whole meaning the Witness race sought and the Light could be quite destructive if turned to such purposes

[quartz ledge]

yeah nah

[quartz ledge]

just rewatched that scene

[quartz ledge]

thats excempting another statement

"to calcify it into a final shape"

[chrome fog]

They arrived to claim it, but the Veil itself never told them what to do, just gave them the gift of Darkness

[quartz ledge]

they found out how to cut away the chaos of existence using the dark, and assumed that is the final shape

[slim elk]

Still, got the Final Shape defined now
The Witness imposing it's "meaning" upon the entire universe

[pine lion]

Btw, the drifter talks with sloane while on their little “Drink Date” drifter talks about venturing outside of “sol” (aka our solar system) and he says there is monsters of like unknown origin which scared the drifter when he was still a guardian and still had a fireteam

[quartz ledge]

i mean, heres the thing, we see multiple beings interpret the final shape in different ways

[pine lion]

And the witness is from outside “sol”

[chrome fog]

They came to the same realization as we have now that they can make reality-as-is into reality-as-desired through the combined power of Darkness and Light to Give Purpose - give ‘Salvation’ to a purposeless reality - as they see fit

[quartz ledge]

iirc we get some dialogue about it from rhulk and nezarec

[chrome fog]

Many things are from outside Sol

We were about to go outside of Sol ourselves before the Collapse

[pine lion]

Fr?

Oh dang

[chrome fog]

The Exodus ships were made for colonization and a few were able to make it past the asteroid belt; Exodus Green was one such ship and it’s passengers were turned into the Awoken when they got caught in the clash of Light and Darkness, the Darkness about to overcome the ship and the Traveler blasting a ray of Light at it to attempt to save it

[chrome fog]

That itself is exempting the statement “in the darkness, they found a means to cut away the chaos of existence”

They studied the Veil themselves and were not told anything by it either

[little gorge]

the beginning of the cutscene really confirms the the whole as is vs as desired thing

ahsa literally says that when they found the traveller "their hopes became reality"

[quartz ledge]

"in the darkness the found a means to cut away the chaos of existence, to calcify it into a final shape" simply paraphrasing that would mean that the means to cut away the chaos of existence, is the method to create the final shape

which they found in the dark

by studying the dark

[chrome fog]

Still wasn’t directly from the Veil, they came to that conclusion themselves as the Veil never told them anything

That would be saying that their findings on the Light being capable of destructive ends was the Traveler/Gardener telling them to use the Light for such means

[quartz ledge]

good point

but i would like to say that interpretation only works if you assume the traveler and veil inherently act the same as a guidenceless god

[pine lion]

Wb the exodus black

[slim elk]

Yeah. We know from Maya the Veil has some corruptive influence. It spoke into her mind and had the name "veil" given.. then have the whole salvation mentioned

[pine lion]

Its on nessus(crashed there)

But where from

[quartz ledge]

otherwise it disconnects the second statement

[little gorge]

that sounds more like the guidance of the witness than the veil itself

remember "the veil" is a name that they gave it

[slim elk]

Basic logic fails that line of thought though
Witness had no idea where the Veil was, and the Veil existed before the Witness even was a thing

[chrome fog]

Most Exodus ships launched from the Cosmodrome

[pine lion]

Most

[chrome fog]

Or all

[little gorge]

doesn't have to be the witness itself acting

could be memories

[chrome fog]

All those tall pylons in the background? Ships

[pine lion]

I miss cayde-6

[little gorge]

could be that maya saw their pursuit of "salvation"

[chrome fog]

There’s also the fact that the Witness has helped push the narrative that the Darkness is connected to a negative moral element, when the actual distinction is different

[slim elk]

Must admit it sounds very similar to how the Witness species acted no?

[pine lion]

The witness species wanted to know the meaning of life

Im guessing thats salvation

[little gorge]

they figured all that out by themselves

because they started all that in their search for purpose

[chrome fog]

The Veil could be genuinely providing “Salvation” as opposed to the Witness’ ‘Salvation’, which I think the Exos all crashing near the Veil seems to be pointing towards

[little gorge]

wasn't that just due to exominds being made of darkness

[slim elk]

Yep
And remember the Cloudark. It's not all that far removed from the Witness
All of a populations minds all in the same "vessel"

[little gorge]

the witness acts as one entity

[chrome fog]

Exactly, but it was Darkness provided by the Witness, as opposed to the Darkness provided by the Veil, which might provide a distinction between Darkness as we one knew and Darkness as it’s supposed to be

The Witness and the Veil’s actions being similar to each other can very well be a part of the Witness’ plan, trying to antagonize us against another potential source of power by making us believe it is evil like itself

[slim elk]

Yep. Was all united in purpose
I wonder if there's a central "guiding" personality though. Not all the Witness species was there at first contact with the Veil

Has to be an origin

[chrome fog]

They are not opposed to such tactics, as Unveiling and Inspiral try to do the same with the Traveler/Gardener, painting her as an unhelpful and optimistic deity who is being neglectful in her non-interference

[slim elk]

Neomuna? Very clear someone buried lot of dirty secrets and basic info

Saw that behavior before in the name Bray

[chrome fog]

This could very well be the true intentions of the Traveler/Gardener and the Winnower/Veil, which can be seen as neglectful with a particularly pessimistic view like the one the Witness adopts
#📚lore-discussion message

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
Ultimately these gifts are an investment to see what you will do in the future, what you will do when given support, and to tell you what to do defeats that goal; Unveiling says as much as the Gardener’s wish

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jun 22, 2023, 2:23 PM

[slim elk]

Can solidly say the Gardener is a coward no matter the POV. With how many races its left before finally making a stand at earth

[slim perch]

afaik

it left the eliksni

and the hive rejected it

so basically it’s 2-0 the first being a mulligan to the witness people

[chrome fog]

To draw away the Pyramid and Hive forces

[slim perch]

that too

[chrome fog]

And that was because it’s leadership was gaslit by the Witness

[slim perch]

and that

most the rhetoric of the traveler abandoning comes from the witness

and now from the cutscene it’s kinda obvious the googly eyed people scared it away

[slim elk]

Actually have another concrete example with Rhulks species... and they didn't have a "Collapse" event by all accounts

[slim perch]

no rhulk instead genocided them

[slim elk]

Traveler left them, and they self destructed by their own accord

Ergo the Regime

Went from Golden Age to post apocalypse

Rhulk did the final genocide by blowing up the stars yes. But their society as a whole utterly collapsed after the Traveler left

Without Witness pulling the trigger on it

[violet plume]

so the witness is an entire civilization

thats crazy

[slim elk]

We got our darkness race all in one package lol

[chrome fog]

It has been using “We” and “Our” when describing itself on the past

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/anakin-not-just-the-men-but-the-women-and-children-too-star-wars-talk-gif-17266942

Witness

[violet plume]

oh shit thats crazy

IT ALL CAME TOGETHER IN ONE CUTSCENE 😭

[empty fern]

Yea

And it’s a weekly cutscene so

[violet plume]

thats crazy

[empty fern]

After seasons gone they’ll never know

[violet plume]

honestly that rlly sucks

ik everyones saying this but it shouldve been in lightfall

[empty fern]

Yea

Hopefully next new light update will include the cutscene

[violet plume]

yes that would be great

[slim perch]

pretty sure the regime existed way before

[violet plume]

whats the regime

[slim perch]

and it was simply rhulks doing after being manipulated by the witness to destroy lubrae

[slim elk]

Lubrae government
(Rhulk)
Traveler left his species, they collapsed internally and the Regime was an authoritarian government in charge of the last city on the planet

[violet plume]

ohhh okay

[slim elk]

Notably.. no mention of pyramids or Witness involved in that big collapse

[slim perch]

pretty sure the regime was during the traveler.

and hence why rhulk did it

[slim elk]

Indeed..they worshipped the traveler
All I'm pointing is that after it left, Rhulks species fell into chaos

[violet plume]

didnt rhulk kill his species

like all of it

[slim elk]

Yep.
Rhulk was raised in the post apocalypse after traveler had left them

[violet plume]

ohhh

so basically his life sucked

[slim elk]

Indeed, and his species could remember when they were much better off

The part I focus on.. is that it was a self destruction
Pyramids.. apparently didnt cause such a event that time Till Rhulk turned to the dark

[pearl storm]

I'm guessing Lubrae was probably the first civilisation the traveller fled to then?

Unless the Witness decimated more without trying to get a disciple

[slim elk]

Unknown but would be logical

Would explain where Witness got the "abandons races" knowledge from

[violet plume]

ive seen alot of people saying they like drifter alot more now

[chrome fog]

He’s always been good but his prominence in this season has probably drawn more attention to him and his lore

‘The Man with No Name’ is a great lore book

His perspective overall gives a more grounded look of how life during the Dark Ages was like, sufferable Middle Age conditions for the mortals and the Risen fighting small scale wars between each other at the expense of those without Light

And he really is an extreme survivalist, which stems a bit from his paranoia and how initially he didn’t trust his Ghost and therefore refused its ability to mitigate his hunger

[violet plume]

i see

ill def give that lore book a read

unless u can only get it from fhe season i didnt buy this season

[chrome fog]

All past years’ lore books are available

Only ones unavailable are those related to content still playable in-game, such as Beyond Light, Witch Queen, etc

[fresh zephyr]

Who was the girl that ran iron banner during rise of iron?

[tawdry mauve]

efrideet

[chrome fog]

She’s disappeared into the pacifist enclave she set up right after that incident with the SIVA vault; the devil splicers found it years later and started Rise of Iron

[violet plume]

EFRIDEET I MISS HER SM

[outer dragon]

I wonder if that enclave will end up being important

[odd flicker]

I really want Zavala to retire and go there.

[empty fern]

Do we ever know who the guardian who’s ship crashed in the d1 new light campaign was?

The first crashed ship in cosmodrome

[tawdry mauve]

no

[empty fern]

Damn

[little gorge]

idk about a new light update but judging from how the seraph ending was in the lf intro we're probably going to get someone mentioning the fact that the witness is a whole race who had found the traveller in the tfs intro

[empty fern]

And Eva lava tea gonna narrate it

Still sad speaker dead now

[limpid flower]

he a cult leader

[empty fern]

He had nice voice

[quasi sleet]

haha, yeah, still doesn't mean they weren't full of joy while doing it

[chrome fog]

Why yes, cheer on the being that wants to kill you because it wants to impose its will on you, that’s smart

Like, at least have some self-preservation guys

[frail drum]

What the witness feels is beyond your own comprehension

[chrome fog]

It’s very in comprehension

[frail drum]

All Mara got out of it was anger

Anger unknown by most mortal beings

especially because it’s the wrath of millions in one body

[chrome fog]

They’re in a collective authoritarian train, it’s the same mentality many dictators find themselves in

I’m gonna

[frail drum]

Wait that is literally me

[chrome fog]

Wait seven??

[frail drum]

YEAH

[chrome fog]

How did I

[frail drum]

I joined seeing that you were here

[rich veldt]

AYO 7?

[frail drum]

WAIT YO

We’re all here

[real ingot]

More green people

[empty fern]

Whatever happened to the old bounty bot above eris

[pearl storm]

I honestly don't think the lore or themes of the game at all call for a third darkness subclass.

Stasis is a symbol of control, which is why we learn its power through the pyramids and the Witness. It never discovered strand, since its philosophy is so centred around control. Strand is all about letting go.

The dark elements do not oppose the light elements, they're completely different from the ground up, at least lore wise. In fact, strand and stasis oppose each other as opposites. Total vs acceptance.

I don't really see the need or reason for a third here

[stable beacon]

Whats stopping the Guardians from combining into one ultra-being like the witness?

[chrome fog]

This is a civilization that has studied the Light and Darkness up close and escalated its power to take the Traveler’s Pale Geart

Guardians have barely been around for millennia and even then a majority of that time has been infighting, with the most progress happening within the past decade up to recent events

[chrome fog]

Eh, there’s a complimentary duality the Darkness elements have with the Light ones but that’s been discussed for months in this channel (before the wipe)

Correction: the recent wipe

[pearl storm]

I mean there is some sort of duality, but nothing as standout as between strand and stasis imo. In their physicality, sure. But since darkness is to do with the mind, we should compare darkness abilities to each other in terms of their philosophy, imo

Which would place strand and stasis as polar opposites

I do agree that the darkness elements do mirror the light in some way, though. I just think that both the darkness elements mirror each other much more strongly

[chrome fog]

There was something about Strand being a complimentary element to Void, creating connection where there wasn’t one while Void creates separation where there wasn’t

Though that’s completely true that the Darkness elements are more of their own thing meant to be compared next to each other rather than the Light elements

[regal lichen]

aight quick question, why do we go to the leviathan and help out calus with stuff?

wiki barely tells us anything

[real ingot]

Depends which time

[regal lichen]

when he first appears back in the system

which i believe was when the levithan first appeared at nessus?

right?

[real ingot]

Red War?

We were scouting

Seeing if he was a threat

which at the time

no

Guy just threw parties

[chrome fog]

Also gave out weapons

[regal lichen]

calus has always been my favorite character, but i was like 10 when he was put into the game

[real ingot]

Eater was us fixing his engine

[regal lichen]

10-12, somewhere there

[real ingot]

because we wanted loot

[chrome fog]

No idea about his experiments or any of that other stuff until we got deep in the shit, saw what he was doing to Gahlran

[real ingot]

Spire was Val Ca'our trying to take over the Levi so we came in and saved Calus' ass

[chrome fog]

Also commissioned a freaky fanfic of how the future can potentially be

[real ingot]

Chronicon was

a thing

[regal lichen]

chronicon?

[real ingot]

Lore book

Then Opulence happened

[regal lichen]

best season

[real ingot]

Calus made Gahlran to wield the Crown of Sorrow

which was a trap by Savathun

Calus made Gahlran wear it so he could control the Hive

[chrome fog]

But that didn’t happen

[real ingot]

Gahlran ends up possessed by Savathun

[chrome fog]

He just grew big and bad

Had chains and shit

[real ingot]

Then we go in

[chrome fog]

Was also very unarmored

[real ingot]

Beat up Gahlran

Get paid

Then the Levi dissapeares and in Chosen we get Presage

[chrome fog]

And to clarify, made through cloning tech, which Calus became known for utilizing

[real ingot]

where it turns out Calus was doing experiments with Scorn and Egregore and weird shit

[chrome fog]

Then Haunted comes and we find out the Levi is infested with Egregore

[outer dragon]

An actual toddler

[chrome fog]

Which itself is a bigger issue than Calus because freaky paracausal fungus

[real ingot]

Levi dissapeared into an anomaly of one of the missing planets/moon

[regal lichen]

so when you first land at the leviathan raid, he says "you accepted my challenge"

[real ingot]

Think it was Mercury

[chrome fog]

And also it’s fucking up with the Lunar Pyramid and causing more Nightmares to pop up, more widespread than just on the moon

[regal lichen]

so when did we talk to him before that?

[chrome fog]

Season of Opulance

No wait

[real ingot]

He kinda just sent us a transmission during Red War

well after

then we arrived

[chrome fog]

That

I didn’t play until Beyond Light so

[regal lichen]

what did he say in that transmission?

im trying to relearn all this destiny lore because im running a dnd destiny thing

[chrome fog]

And I’m not that into Calus, just a megalomaniacal vainglorious douche of a dad

[real ingot]

"Yo I got guns get in here"

cue the raid

[regal lichen]

dont insult that sexy hunk of man

maybe if caital wasnt such a horrible daughter always asking for things like food and attention

[chrome fog]

Shouldn’t have been an abusive dad then

And a shit leader

[real ingot]

Oh and for extra Calus had jeweled nipples

[chrome fog]

And males breastfeed the young

[regal lichen]

august 12th, 2024 7:12 am

[real ingot]

Do what you want with this

[chrome fog]

I know where I live, what do I care?

Dova really hung onto ‘barracks beau’

Collector’s Edition was a Time

[real ingot]

Dova has ptsd from it

[chrome fog]

Avlus I didn’t realize it was you because you usually had a cat-lookin pfp and Avlus as your name here

I’m so dumb

[real ingot]

I'VE HAD POWER FOR FUCKING AGES

[chrome fog]

[regal lichen]

i have power too, im very strong

[chrome fog]

SORRY, IM STUPID

[real ingot]

Goddamn

[chrome fog]

A real Blockhead you might say

[real ingot]

Did ya think I was banned?

[chrome fog]

No i just didn’t recognize you for some reason

[real ingot]

[chrome fog]

I’ve been absent from this server since after Lightfall released because of… Lightfall release, and all that invited from the denizens of this server

[real ingot]

I've seen a few dissapear in recent times

[regal lichen]

ok i think i found the transmission calus sent

"I possess the means to true agency beyond your feeble Light. Seek me out and perhaps I'll show you how to grow fat from that strength. Do you still believe you are on the right side? Mull it over and enjoy my gifts to you."

[real ingot]

Mars and Commie are gone

[regal lichen]

but there has to be more to that right?

[real ingot]

Password is but he's still in the community

[chrome fog]

NOOOO

[real ingot]

Dova is still here

Mediocre got banned

And Sphinx left

Not that he did anything but cause everyone to go insane

[chrome fog]

I hate that I can’t remember Sphinx, it’s on the tip of my brain

[real ingot]

Clovis is the strongest Destiny character guy

[chrome fog]

Ah

[chrome fog]

For the memes, right?
please tell me it was because of the memes

[real ingot]

Nup

fully serious

anyway I'm out

[chrome fog]

Weh

See ya

[south temple]

Why are we preventing the scorn and pyramids from destroying savathuns throne world it kinda dosent make sense

[chrome fog]

It won’t just destroy Savathun’s Throneworld

It’s a weapon of Rhulk’s making that might take out the entire solar system

[regal lichen]

yet he couldnt kill six guardians with it

what a loser

[chrome fog]

He was cocky

His wipe mechanic is him actually trying

[regal lichen]

hehehe cocky

[south temple]

I’m sure the universe will be fine

[south temple]

Hehehe cock-y

[regal lichen]

ok staying on my calus research journey, the purpose of the leviathan is to consume planets

but why?

[chrome fog]

Yeah
The universe where we are the only defense against the Witness rewriting everything

[dim minnow]

the eating planets thing was just a way for the ship to maintain itself

[chrome fog]

Rule 3

[south temple]

Damn crazy

[dim minnow]

the Ship itself was supposed to be a sort of prison barge, then Calus turned it into a "pleasure barge" or something like that

[south temple]

It runs on green energy technically by eating planets that are green and organic

[regal lichen]

so why didnt he finish eating nessus then?

its the lamest of all our locations anyways, we wouldnt have minded

[south temple]

The creators can’t bring them selves to take away failsafe

[violet plume]

i forgot about dailsafe

failsafe

[regal lichen]

bro, hawthorne has done more than failsafe

[violet plume]

thats crazy 💀

[chrome fog]

Planets also have metals, water, many vital minerals in constructing stuff

[south temple]

Taking from the source

[dim minnow]

the Witness told him to bring the Leviathan to Mercury (or where it used to be)
plus Nessus regenerated itself at a stable rate

[regal lichen]

ive never heard about the leviathan and mercury

tell me more about that

[violet plume]

so can the witness just casually move planets whenever it feels like it

[south temple]

Take mercury who cares

[dim minnow]

we don't really get much on it, just that it was what led to Calus actually meeting the Witness

it was most likely then that Calus learned much about the Witness and the Final Shape

and also there where the Witness suppressed many of his memories

[regal lichen]

ok next thing, give me a detailed and lengthy essay on the entire history of calus

[dim minnow]

rather tough sell given how much we got now, but I can give you some main points

[regal lichen]

please do

[thorn osprey]

I did not expect that much lore in a random weekly quest. 🤯

[violet plume]

goes crazy

[chrome fog]

Ah yes, one of the planets closest to the Sun, energy provider of the entire Sol System

[south temple]

My point still stands

[chrome fog]

You must be fun

[south temple]

You are speaking with a fully operational idiot who screws around with people what you expect

[thorn osprey]

One thing I’m confused about, how did the Traveler not know the Veil was on Neptune?

[chrome fog]

Aaaand button

[chrome fog]

If she did she didn’t say anything as per her agreement to minimal interference with the universe

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-who-are-you-david-rose-david-dan-levy-schitts-creek-gif-20788418

[south temple]

A guy who’s very sleep deprived

[south temple]

Rule 3

[dim minnow]

1. Calus overthrew the Praetorate, a corrupt military elite who ruled over the Cabal upon becoming emperor
2. He then began to turn the Cabal empire away from their military/warrior culture gradually
3. Many people close to him started to doubt his abilities as a ruler including his daughter, Ghaul, and Umun Arath. On top of that, the Praetorate was planning a coup which the three people mentioned joined.
4. The coup happens and Calus is exiled within the Leviathan.
5. Calus is in a very distressed state until the Leviathan runs into "the Black Edge" where the ship's navigation systems get fried and Calus first encounters the Witness (though he wouldn't know it at the time).
6. Calus starts going to different species and making the best member of them his Shadows.
7. He sends his shadows after various conspirators who participated in the coup with many of them being successful.
8. Several of his best Shadows are sent to kill Ghaul, but they fail leading to Calus realizing that he should get rid of the remaining ones and start over.
9. Calus discovers that Ghaul is killed in Sol and immediately gets interesting in Guardians (and us specifically since we were the one who killed him)
10. Calus invites Guardians to the Leviathan (Leviathan Raid)
11. Massive Vex mind clogs up the Leviathan, so Calus enlists the help of a fireteam who were sent into the Leviathan's underbelly in a Vanguard covert op (Eater of Worlds)
12. Val Ca'uor, Cabal who took over Red Legion, led an attack on the Leviathan to take it over, but a fireteam of Guardians intervened (Spire of Stars).
13. Calus opens up the Menagerie to the Guardians to test their skills once again (Season of Opulence)
14. Calus sends guardians deep into the Menagerie to kill a failed experiment in the form of a Gladiator name Gahlran (Crown of Sorrow)
15. Experiments with Scorn and CoS and properly meets the Witness (Presage)
16. Tries to link Leviathan to Moon Pyramid, succeeds but we push him back (Haunted Season)

character limit, but this is pretty much everything before Lightfall

a brief summary

other noteworthy points, during Opulence, Savathun sent us pages from a book Calus was writing called the Chronicon which is best described as in canon fanfiction

which made us realize that Calus was a fucking lunatic

[regal lichen]

dont insult him like that

i love calus

[dim minnow]

and after the communion he made with the Witness in Presage, he took the Leviathan into the void where Mercury once was

then after that, Season of the Haunted

[dim minnow]

read Chronicon

[regal lichen]

this, what was the purpose of doing this

[dim minnow]

when Beyond Light began, two planets, and two moons vanished

due to the Pyramids

[regal lichen]

yeah i know that

[dim minnow]

Calus was distraught since the Pyramids pretty much ignored him

so he had a Guardian working for him steal a Red Legion ship where he would stage the experiments on Scorn

he wanted to meet what he met at the Black Edge

[chrome fog]

He is a simp

[dim minnow]

it was there that he gained slightly better understanding over the Witness

[regal lichen]

oh, i meant why does he take it to where mercury was

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that we had no knowledge of the Witness' existence until Witch Queen

[dim minnow]

because the Witness told him to

and when he did, he was able to actually meet up with the Witness

and in there, the Witness mentally transformed Calus into a proper Herald (and later, disciple)

[regal lichen]

in lightfall, calus still seemed to not entirely agree with the witness and was more working with him for his own benefit

[dim minnow]

that was just Calus' innate laziness

I also like to think that our actions in the Duality dungeon sort of loosened Calus' loyalty

[regal lichen]

bein like "you can do all this stuff anytime you want, but you dont, loser, bet you dont have a girlfriend either huh? you a little loser with no happyness? goofy megamind lookin ass"

[chrome fog]

Calus is also entirely self-absorbed, believing that siding with the Witness would allow him to make reality like how it is in the Chronicon

And that’s the… Chronicon

[dim minnow]

but it also seemed like the memory suppression wasn't enough since the Duality dungeon did show that Calus was very conflicted internally

also keep in mind that this entire time Calus was thinking that his idea of the Final Shape was perfectly aligned with the Witness

[torpid flint]

Please say some things from this great book

What could possibly make us realize he’s even more maniacal than we realized at that time?

[regal lichen]

hes not maniacal, he is perfect and misunderstood

[chrome fog]

Suuuuuuure

[torpid flint]

I still love that stupid LF cutscene showing how evil he is

[torpid flint]

Just like the witness

[regal lichen]

i will witness me punching you in the face for insulting for insulting calus

[pine lion]

How the FUCK DOES AHSA know the witness’ origins

A literal whale

[real ingot]

Ahsa is a proto worm god

they have strange origins tied to the darkness

it's a possibility stuff happened in the past

[pine lion]

Like the one Oryx killed?

[real ingot]

Proto

Akka was a worm

[pine lion]

Proto?

[real ingot]

They aren't a worm god

but a similar species

if not the same

[pine lion]

But is ahsa a whale?

[real ingot]

Siochain shell

read

[pine lion]

Read the description of that shell?

[real ingot]

it has a lore tab

[pine lion]

Dont you get to see her full body in the GoD

Dungeon

[tranquil meteor]

why do the kings fall guns look like they're made of meat

[pine lion]

But they look so coool

[real ingot]

They are

[tranquil meteor]

why are the kings fall guns made out of meat

[real ingot]

They’re just the remains off Eliksni killed on Riis

[trim grotto]

Well now I certainly wouldn't say that

[uneven canyon]

What was the unknown artifact we found in the pyramid during shadowkeep?

[real ingot]

a relic

led us into the Black Garden

and gave us Unveiling from the Witness

[uneven canyon]

Ah

Like the lore book?

[real ingot]

yes

[deep pagoda]

Any vex lore knowers who don’t mind me asking a lot of questions?

[dim minnow]

go ahead

[sick yew]

Its the Vex tho so answers could just be based on weird written lore

[deep pagoda]

What are each of the vex factions, what is there goal and what is there supposed or possible orgin.

What is the known purpose of the garden on venus?

[real ingot]

Garden of Venus?

[deep pagoda]

Got more after these

[real ingot]

Let's go with the start

the Vex are as old as the universe itself

[deep pagoda]

Mb, garden on Venus.

[sick yew]

We dont know how many vex factions there truly are

Truth be told we dont know how large of a scale the Vex operate at all

[real ingot]

They were formed during the flower game in a way

[dim minnow]

all vex are united by one goal, to take over the Universe and make everything Vex

[sick yew]

^

[real ingot]

the winning pattern became the Vex as the Gardener and Winnower created the universe

[sick yew]

Isnt that kinda a big questionmark since the flowergame may or may not be true anymore?

[deep pagoda]

What are the factions and there goals or beliefs that we know of then?

[real ingot]

they fell into our universe

[dim minnow]

each subcollective is just doing their own part in reaching this goal

[deep pagoda]

Like the sol divisive and precursors

[sick yew]

uhm

wha

[real ingot]

Likely still true

Seeing as there isn't any evidence against it

[sick yew]

I doubt that part of Unveiling still holds up

[deep pagoda]

?

[sick yew]

We dont know whether the Gardener created the universe
And the Winnower is just the race of the Witness

[real ingot]

the Winnower is the Veil

that is what the cutscene implies

[slim perch]

thought the winnower was the lady

[sick yew]

Doesnt the cutscene imply the race of the Witness were the winnower

[real ingot]

No

[sick yew]

@dim minnow lore man come and back me up here

[deep pagoda]

What is the known factions and there believes and stuff and orgin that we know of, like the precursors and sol divisive

[real ingot]

The Witness was created by the collective of the first species

that's the best way I can put it

[sick yew]

The Witness is just a whole race combined yes

[real ingot]

They sought purpose

[dim minnow]

Precursors - Past Vex
Descendants - Future Vex

[sick yew]

But before that they were all people

[real ingot]

The Gardener gifted them a golden age

[dim minnow]

Sol Divisive found the Black Garden's Heart and worshipped it

[real ingot]

yet they desired more

thus they found the Winnower

to show them the dark

to combine them

[deep pagoda]

Is there a Reddit post or website or something that goes more in detail about it?

[sick yew]

Byf has a few videos on that

[dim minnow]

with what exactly?

[deep pagoda]

Been listening to his videos while messaging here lol

[sick yew]

I thought the recent cutscene proved that the race the Witness used to be are the Winnower

Not the Veil/Darkness

[deep pagoda]

Just looking for a good reading material or someone who can go in detail about what we know fully

[dim minnow]

ehhh

all the cutscene really did was limit the truth

[deep pagoda]

So is there any website or something that goes more in detail about vex lore

[sick yew]

Problem is that essentially all Vex lore is extremely cryptic

[dim minnow]

either There wasn't a Winnower initially and the Witness became it
The Veil is the Winnower (or the Witness found the Winnower using it)
or The Winnower was never real which I say to myself as I close my eyes and ram into the Tower gift shop in my shitty bronco

[deep pagoda]

There’s gotta be more then just a couple words though right ?

[sick yew]

After the cutscene I believe the first one to be the case

https://www.destinypedia.com/Vex

[deep pagoda]

Ty !

[sick yew]

This might not be as detailed as say a lore specific view but its a good overview anyway

[deep pagoda]

Yeah just wanted more then just “name vex = past other = future”

[sick yew]

In a nutshell thats mostly all we know sadly

Their entire point is that they play the long game

[dim minnow]

better answers will require more specific questions in my opinion

[deep pagoda]

Here,
If the sol divisive are about replicating or hailing the darkness what are the other known factions about.

[sick yew]

Theyve likely converted entire galaxy clusters into their own machine worlds
Theyre completely relentless when it comes to their quest of converting everything there is in the universe into themselves

Everything that has happened starting from Humanitys golden age until now is essentially a blink of an eye in the overall way of the Vex

They will keep going, keep trying until they are done with their quest

No matter how long it takes

[deep pagoda]

I’m very curious on the Sol collective goal/beliefs , Sol progeny, and Sol imminent

[deep pagoda]

Ah

[sick yew]

Pretty much all Vex divisions work towards the same goal
With very few of them seeking a different approach such as the Sol Divisive which worshipped the black heart

[deep pagoda]

Is the Sol imminent just the future version of the Sol collective then?

[dim minnow]

Aphix Invasive - Most likely a sort of security force of some sort, pretty high profile
Hezen Corrective and Hezen Protective - Safeguarding the Vault of Glass and running its experiments
Virgo Prohibition - Incompetence
Descendant and Precursor - As stated, future and past Vex respectively. They can appear in simulations of the past and future or where a convergence of timelines is occurring (VoG or CoO)

[sick yew]

I think so(?)

[dim minnow]

Sol Imminent is one of the Sol Progeny actually

[deep pagoda]

Oh?

[sick yew]

Vex and their funky ass names

[dim minnow]

the Sol Progeny are the three main Vex minds that gained power from the Black Garden's Heart

[safe galleon]

I mean the Veil doesn't seem to act like the Winnower at all

I don't think it even speaks. The Winnower is treated as very

[dim minnow]

idk, it winnowed the Exodus Indigo exos pretty hard

[safe galleon]

Uhhh

Talkative

[sick yew]

The Darkness in general doesnt feel like the Winnower anymore

Thats what I mean

It feels a lot more like the way the Witness acts

The Darkness/Veil are really just chilling

[dim minnow]

it is pretty much confirmed at this point that the Veil is at least a Dark counterpart to the Traveler

[safe galleon]

Yeah, I feel like the Witness is meant to be the Winnower at this point

[deep pagoda]

So are the imminent and primeveil both future and past of only the Progreny? And we have yet to see future and past of other vex ?

[safe galleon]

Like, it made up a guy and proceeded to become that guy

They 'became the salvation they craved'

[dim minnow]

Imminent, Primeval, and Eschaton Minds are the Sol Progeny with one representing past, one representing present, and one future

[sick yew]

Also from an in universe perspecive
We know Unveiling is a story told by the Witness/the race it used to be
How would it even know about the Flower Game before the creation of the Universe

[dim minnow]

through the Veil

[sick yew]

We know the Veil speaks?

"speaks"

[dim minnow]

either it did or the Witness used it to see Unveiling

I mean, the lore book is literally called un"veil"ing

[sick yew]

What if Unveiling is just a bunch of bullshit

[dim minnow]

pretty lame

[sick yew]

Full of lies like we now know the Books of Sorrow are

[deep pagoda]

Gotcha, so the collective are just an extra variant. Final question, is there a vex group that has tried remaking the light like the sol divisive did to the dark?

[dim minnow]

we already have a bunch of stuff that supports Unveiling

[dim minnow]

not as far as we know

[safe galleon]

Maybe Unveiling is from an alternate reality or timeline where the Witness got everything it wanted and rewrote things so that it was always a thing /j

[dim minnow]

though Light is much more antithetical to the Vex than the Darkness is

so Vex using Light is highly unlikely

or maybe the Witness used the veil to learn Unveiling

with the whole Akahesic Record deal going on rn, it is very possible and highly likely to be the case

[sick yew]

IF the Winnower is really the darkness then it makes no sense that it would just be chilling in the universe until the Witness found it
It would always have tried to fight the Traveler no? But this grand conquest only started with the Witness' race when they tried to forcefully bring the Veil to it and combine them

before that both forces were just casually existing

[dim minnow]

there were various known species alignign with the Darkness

Ecuemene, Qugu

[sick yew]

But they never went after the Traveler until the Witness started its thing no?

[deep pagoda]

Alright so lemme see if I get this,

Precursors and Descendants are the past and future of the Eschston. The Eschston is a sol divisive vex, and the other vex or just mini sub factions? And the Collective are just a general vex.

[dim minnow]

Eschaton is probably just all present vex whether that be Sol Divisive or the *sigh Virgo Prohibition

[ember storm]

did something come up recently that proves this

[deep pagoda]

Sweech, thanks for the run down lol.

[sick yew]

Proves what? That the books of sorrow are kinda bullshit?

[dim minnow]

again, Vex lore is weird

[safe galleon]

Then again, if the Witness is the Winnower and does Not predate the Traveler's spherical form™️, and the Traveler is said to have had its form reduced to that current state by the Winnower and its First Knife, then the Witness can't be the Winnower because it came into being AFTER the Traveler apparently got cleaved by the First Knife

[ember storm]

the idea is that they’re just the hive Bible

it’s filled with hive propaganda, sure, but there’s definitely a bunch of stuff that’s accurate

[dim minnow]

also note that the Vex don't actually time travel

[sick yew]

Yeah and what if Unveiling is like a Witness bible sort of thing

[dim minnow]

you know, I got two lore excerpts that I think perfectly explain the Vex

[sick yew]

An idealistic take by a biased party

[safe galleon]

And we know that the First Knife incident is a real thing since iirc we see the Traveler's inner thoughts reference it

[ember storm]

the way unveiling is written is still direct messages meant for guardians specifically

[dim minnow]

The Vex are, so far, simply curious. But Vex curiosity always leads to Vex transformation [...]

The Vex will not rest until every star has been crushed into a black hole and every newborn cosmos filled with more Vex. And in the unending array of their enslaved cosmos, they will simulate all possible pasts, and fill those with Vex, so that all things that have ever lived or might ever live will experience infestation and consumption and torment by the silica nightmare.

And in those devoured simulations, the simulated Vex will use our flesh as hosts for yet more nested universes full of yet more nested copies of us eternally tormented by yet more Vex.

An infinite regression of pain and madness inflicted upon every possible version of us in every possible world. Not because they hate us, or fear us, or want to punish us. But because they are indifferent and curious, and they will do every possible thing to us in every possible way.```
@deep pagoda  read this

[sick yew]

Which imo just amplifies it

It has tried to recruit us on pretty much every occasion

[sick yew]

"or form relationships with other individuals."
What about that whole stick with that Vex mind in the cloud ark?

How much do we know about that anyway

[deep pagoda]

Oh?

[safe galleon]

This was done to the Traveler by the Winnower, which existed before the Witness since the Witness's race found the Traveler after it became a golf ball so I guess the Witness and the Winnower can't be the same barring some weird time travel shenanigans or something

[dim minnow]

it's more like using simulations combined with how they percieve time

the excerpts I posted above put this in good perspective

[deep pagoda]

Does atheon just like pick things out of time and place them but can’t travel himself?

[dim minnow]

it's pretty much rewriting reality

[deep pagoda]

So why do we still exist?

[dim minnow]

a lore entry from back in Splicer states that Vex teleport by rewriting history to move themselves

[dim minnow]

the Vex were only able to control reality in the Vault of Glass

[deep pagoda]

Ohhh gotcha

[dim minnow]

and the Aegis (the shield we use) is a hard counter to that ability which is how we did the raid

[deep pagoda]

Which was made by that one titans light rigjt?

[dim minnow]

yes, Kabr put the last of his Light into it

[deep pagoda]

Ah

So the vex we’re trying to create time travel but could only get it to work in the vault before we got there

[sick yew]

they also did in the infinite forrest sort of

[dim minnow]

well, the new cutscene seems to reveal something

[deep pagoda]

Oh?

[dim minnow]

so in the cutscene, it states tha tthe Witness wants to use the Veil to link with the Travler so it can have total control over reality

and back in D1, the vex were using power from the Black Garden's Heart (which is confirmed to be a failed copy of the Veil) to basically do the same thing with the Vault fo Glass

[deep pagoda]

Ohhhh

Well that’s something

[dim minnow]

and I suppose the result would be something like the Vex having the ability to make everything that is, has been, and ever will be Vex

as if reality were a simulation

[safe galleon]

so like

if that portal allows the witness to rewrite reality

why has no one noticed anything happening yet

[dim minnow]

well, we don't really know what is going on in there

for all we know, the Witness is getting tis ass kicked and will be sent flying out of that portal at the end of this year marking the onset of Light (hence the name, Lightfall)

[sick yew]

Do we actually know for fact that the Witness can rewrite our reality

Not the one "inside" the portal

Going by the assumption that what we see in the Final Shape traler is actually the other side of the protal

What if its just a god in there

with no real way of changing what happens outside aka in our universe

[safe galleon]

what use would it have of the portal if it were a vog situation, where it can only influence reality in a small space

or effectively not at all for us

[sick yew]

I mean for all we know there could be an entire universe behind that portal

[safe galleon]

idunno, it seems kinda interested in our universe

[sick yew]

The Portal definitely has some very weird properties that we know

[meager coral]

The witness talks a lot about our salvation, and bringing about the final shape of the universe, would be weird if it was somewhere else

[sick yew]

Mainly from Joxers final moments

And the fact that Cayde will be chilling in it

Again assuming that it really is the other side of the portal

Who knows maybe what we see in the Final Shape trailer is just what happens after the Witness rewrites our reality

[slim perch]

the guardian when the witness rewrites the guardians vault

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1119631517287727225/1120164621249171547/rapidsave.com_titans_when_theyre_hit_with_the_dollar_store-4migmnijdgua1.mp4

[sick yew]

[chrome fog]

You do and it’s a long serpentine body

[chrome fog]

Specifically, there were messages coming from the Relic and Eris Morn translated that into Unveiling for us

[chrome fog]

The events listed in Unveiling might’ve still occurred, but it could’ve been more of a Jesus-style “I want to become mortal to experience how my creations live” type of deal

I posited in this channel before that the Witness could have portrayed the Winnower in Unveiling as an idealized version of what they wanted from the Gardener and the Veil/actual Winnower, one that more closely embodied it’s ideals of Survival of the Fittest; the Winnower of Unveiling and Inspiral fit the Witness more, and yet the most probably being who is the Winnower simply gives gifts in a similar manner to the Traveler/Gardener, which tracks with our initial suspicion that Unveiling and Inspiral could’ve been some form of propaganda

Because the Vex have other sources detailing their creation as before the current universe began, namely Alphi Lupi

[chrome fog]

And in fact this event might support that fact, what with the Exos being borne out of the Witness’ brand of Darkness instead of actual chill Darkness

[chrome fog]

We’re mostly assuming off of the name of the ship that gives us insight to what happens when you go through the portal, and the fact that Cayde from the Final Shape teaser seems to be a Memory given physical form, which would explain him glowing all Blue instead of his yellow mouth light

[azure badge]

Can the witness clean my vault please

I need some space

I'll give tech tips in return

[little gorge]

"two halves of a whole... long divided... a schism between them"

(one of the things ahsa said through sloane)

say it with me

"the gap between reality-as-is and reality-as-desired"

[icy crypt]

okay i have a question, why some zones become so, that you cant revive yourself or with long delay?
Second, lore-wise why is the whole team wiping in raids if you do not resurrect teammate?
Three what is darkness suffocation? (piercing darkness)
if in raid you die "permanently" if you lose, how do developers think that NOONE completes an encounter on first time

[real ingot]

Those are just game mechanics

[icy crypt]

i know but there must be an explanation for this 😄

[chrome fog]

In-universe they have theories but they’re not confirmed to be true

[jolly vector]

its a lore in a random ass bow lul

the darkness itself eats up many places and in those zones many enemies goes in to do things

and when we go in it just surpresses the ghost so its hard to rev

[trim grotto]

That's one of two explanations
I'll elaborate after work
Or I'll forget and fall asleep
We'll see

[empty fern]

Y’all remember when skolas was tampering with the vog oracles?

[keen oracle]

Looking back on how ahsa is a protoworm

I wonder, does one’s body change in order to be a better conduit for light/dark

As we saw with the hive gods, the lightbearing hive etc

[empty fern]

Probably

[empty fern]

You think bungie has a whole website or book (like cook book) on tolands journal?

[ember storm]

no

[trim grotto]

No.

[empty fern]

Fuck

[ember storm]

toland’s journal wasn’t really anything

it only existed for ghost to have baseline knowledge of how hive worked

[trim grotto]

Bungie have fewer resources on this topic than you may expect.

Community resources are often more comprehensive on some topics.

[empty fern]

[trim grotto]

Lucida's Hive Rune Database was incorporated into Bungie's work since Hunt for example
Prior to that? Runes just kinda where ever the heck

Or Sarsion's Eliksni translations from way back when
Recently featured on... Drifter's alcohol bottle the other week this season

[empty fern]

Not a mention of tomb husks except for like 1 mission?

[trim grotto]

Juice of Seven, by the way

[trim grotto]

Correct

[empty fern]

Damnit

2 missions*

[empty fern]

Why was oryx’s sword so special again?

Oh we know what preadyth sounds like

(Paradox mission from d1)

Oh wait we do find preadyths vault in vog (it’s the secret chest room in Gorgons)

[chrome fog]

Willbreaker, maybe something to do with affect enemies’ wills alongside physically being destructive?

[empty fern]

Ah

[tender cove]

The more I live, the more I understand the Witness.

[empty fern]

Edgy, please elaborate

[analog torrent]

need 4 purpose

[empty fern]

Oh

Hmmmm

[blazing wasp]

The desire for a single eyebrow

[empty fern]

Jesus that was unexpected

@trim grotto quick who was verok

[trim grotto]

Some Hive Wizard. Not sure on the details, that's D1 stuff.

[empty fern]

Damn

Dark blades mate (as the strike says it)

[trim grotto]

Also helped killed one of Eris's fireteam, I think. Vell Tarlow? Bit vague.

[empty fern]

Interesting

[devout nimbus]

Yeah he killed Vell

Also Akak Hul's mate

[empty fern]

Oh my

[frail drum]

She was Alak’hul’s mate, killed Vell. She and Alak’hul together rebelled against Oryx, and were put down for it. Her fate is unknown.

Her existence makes Alak’hul a real Chad tbh

[empty fern]

Very romantic

[dim minnow]

the Witness cutscene will be viewable after this year concludes according to Bungie just now

neat

[regal lichen]

I love calus

[sour galleon]

in the parting the veil mission, chioma esi mentions a cult

what cult is she talking about

[fiery copper]

Having finally watched the cutscene

Idk if I like it

I refuse to get into the fanart thing because I don't know enough about it

The Witness being ||a psychic conglomeration of an entire species|| goes hard as fuck

That's some Emperor Of Mankind type shit

But like

Idk, the veil ||being the winnower|| is not the greatest plot development imo

[tender cove]

From Mass Effect it reminded me of ||the reapers||

[smoky rose]

External people who helped with the cutscene accidentally thought that it was official bungie art, bungie is aware and have reached out to the artist to compensate and credit them for their work

[smoky rose]

But is it

That's the question

The Witness' people craved purpose, a winnower, and in the abscense of one became the salvation they craved aka the Witness

So that would make the Witness the Winnower would it not

[fiery copper]

Maybe I'm just salty that my Alchemical Self theory is dead, idk

...or is it

[chrome fog]

The Winnower itself could just be an ideal version of the deity that the Witness wanted, imposed upon this complimentary being to the Traveler/Gardener

Purely fictional, but what the Witness wishes was real

[fiery copper]

Moon Men drops

[fiery copper]

I also think that unveiling is just so much cooler than this

I wish the order had been reversed and that it was canon instead

[signal bluff]

How important this season is to the overall story/Final Shape, just by this cutscene, underlines how horrific it is that the narrative of a season disappears with the release of the next expansion. It's how the current live-service model can ruin narratives in games. You only get the whole image if you played from the start and never stopped. So far this, in seasons, not speaking of removing the old expansions themselves, was mostly a tragedy for side stories. As an example, if you started playing Destiny with Lightfall, even if you played all bits of content you can, you will only witness the last chapter of Caitl's story, completely missing its context outside of learning as a sidenote that Calus was her father. And the list goes on with all stories that were touched upon by the seasons.

But now.. with this.. ||They miss to answer some of Lightfall's most important questions in its campaign, with their subject matter being crucial for Final Shape. Then they answer it in a seasonal cutscene and will remove it before the Final Shape, when they will be, by merit of the story's structure, central pieces of information. They put the main villain's motivation into a piece of content that will be removed before we actually face them. Just think about that.||

[wind belfry]

Hopefully next week's seasonal story will have some juice

[smoky rose]

Just saying

Bungie confirmed the cutscene is staying in the game

That being said, it should have been in Lightfall

[signal bluff]

That is then just one case where they acknowledge how this negatively impacts the main plot of the saga. But how this practice ruins side stories, from character ones to those of Destiny's peoples and factions, like our new found non-Human allies, is still ignored, and how it can lead to just a question mark filled unsatisfying narrative moment when those stories intersect with an expansion's plot, as it will thus just be a disconnected single chapter of its own story for someone who missed the seasons.

[smoky rose]

They do happen to have an entire section in the destination screen that explains every season

[signal bluff]

So they see it is bad, but only care about it for Final Shape. And the most passionate players also barely care because they are in the group who are up to date and didn't miss said stories. Yet this is important for new player satisfaction. You can have all the great onboarding and tutorials in the world, but if what you lead them to afterwards isn't satisfying it is for naught. If a new player will only ever experience a fragmented story in total, the new flashy chapter you want to lead them to in the newest content can be an absolutely fantastic conclusion to a great story, but if it is chapter 3, and they missed chapter 1 and 2, they won't care about the story at all. They rather have a negative initial impression.

And those chapters do not alleviate that, outside of it by default being of lesser quality than actually experiencing a story, because a new player must 1.) actively seek them out and 2.) does not know about them or what they need to reference exactly when a story beat hits, which references them or requires them to work narratively

The story, as is available to experience for a new player, is a fragmented, disjointed mess. And even more so with seasonal removals than expansion vaulting because it is not just a full (side) story being removed entirely but individual chapters of still present stories of which other chapters still remain in isolation from their context.

This, ignoring Lightfall being Lightfall for a second, also makes it difficult to name the story as a reason when you want to recommend playing Destiny to someone

Sorry for the little rant. Them putting this cutscene into a season just hit exactly this big issue I have with their seasonal story telling. But it is good to hear they are at least not making the giant mistake of removing **this **cutscene as well next year.

And because people complain a lot about the issues of seasons, like sunsetting in the past or monetization currently with Aztecross' video, but ignore this one completely either due to not caring about story in general or due to being blind to it as they never actively experienced the disjointedness as a veteran

[empty fern]

Wait so

What specifically is the conditional finality, I looked at its lore and it just talked about how nez felt the travelers light

[safe galleon]

we know the Witness's species coined the term Gardener according to Ahsa. since this race was the first to call it the Gardener, i don't think it's too much of a stretch to speculate that the Unveiling lorebook was either created by the Witness after it coagulated, created by someone of its race before they fused, or was otherwise based off of their terminology. but ahsa explicitly says that the witness's species called the veil, the veil. therefore, imo, it's incredibly unlikely to be the winnower

if the veil were the winnower, ahsa would have likely said 'they called it the winnower'

[smoky rose]

But also unVEILing

[safe galleon]

why wouldn't she? she knows what they called the gardener

[safe galleon]

honestly i think this is just a coincidence at best. it's called unveiling because that name fits the story

it's us being told, for the first time, what is essentially the 'creation myth' of destiny 2. it's an 'unveiling' of a fuller story that iirc we had scattered hints of beforehand

[smoky rose]

I do agree with this though

I don't buy the Veil is the Winnower at all

I think Unveiling is the mythos of the Witness and the Witness became the Winnower they desired so much

[signal bluff]

Making the Veil not the Winnower also keeps its identity as a revelation to be used in Final Shape or a breadcrumb to be used for a story after.

We already have a big revelation here. It can be unwise to load too much onto this particular moment and not save it for a later point or for more to be potentially gained out of its use.

[safe galleon]

it stands to reason that whoever wrote unveiling was the same being(s) who named the winnower and gardener, or at the very least, the writer took their terminology from the people who did. there's no reason to reveal that the veil was actually the winnower and the witness's species just called it the veil at first, besides arbitrarily railroading the plot into a completely artificial mystery

[signal bluff]

Indeed

[safe galleon]

im not gonna act like the witness being the winnower currently doesnt have flaws, it absolutely does and a glaring one at that

but the veil being the winnower has an equal or arguably even more significant rebuttal

that just can't be answered without assuming some stuff, which is the naming discrepancy i said just now

[slim elk]

of note. Maya had the term "Veil" imprinted when she had exposure to the thing

Then again, may be a situation where everyone calls the Gardener "Traveler" despite knowing better at this point

[safe galleon]

i know, which is why it would be strange for the witness to have started calling it the winnower at some nebulous point between their species discovering it and them all fusing together

their entire purpose in BECOMING the witness was to achieve what they were being deprived of, was it not

they wanted a winnower
they couldn't find one
they became the thing they wanted

if there was a winnower who was doing everything the witness was doing, would there need to be a witness to achieve its goals

[unreal tulip]

What's the veil?

[dim minnow]

a Darkness counterpart to the Traveler

[unreal tulip]

It's the direct counterpart? Hmm, thought it was something else. Has it always been on neomuna?

[dim minnow]

no

[dim minnow]

it is stated to be a Darkness artifact and the recent cutscene states that it is connected to the Traveler

the soundtrack for it also uses the Pyramid motif while sounding much less creepy and more harmonic

it also used to be in Nezarec's possession during the Collapse until Savathun killed him and stole it

then it ended up on Neomuna

[unreal tulip]

Is there a thing for darkness that can be compared to traveler to light?

[dim minnow]

as in how the Traveler is an entity of Light?

[unreal tulip]

Yes and how it supplies powers to such

[dim minnow]

maybe the Witness and Veil

our ability to see and interact with Strand is a byproduct of the Veil

the Witness is also described as wearing the Dark like a cloak

and we see it give power like Stasis

[unreal tulip]

How does one acquire powers of darkness then?

For the villains n such

[dim minnow]

Witness was giving out Stasis to pretty much anyone which was how Eramis got it

[unreal tulip]

So the witness is theorized as the creator of darkness in itself or no?

[dim minnow]

it isn't

have you seen the new cutscene?

[slim elk]

Yeah, basic thing seems to be Winnower=Veil
Like Gardener=Traveler

[dim minnow]

that is one of the possibilities

one I personally adhere to

[unreal tulip]

Winnower and gardener?

[dim minnow]

he hasn't even read Unveiling

[unreal tulip]

I'm only lightly into the lore

[slim elk]

Veil predates the Witness by all indications. So... yeah

[unreal tulip]

Srry

[slim elk]

Personally, think the Veil may have told bits of Unveiling to the Witness species

They wanted meaning and purpose {basically the meaning of life]
Learned they were nothing but a "flower" in the "flower game" definately would help explain the reaction they had

[unreal tulip]

I've seen it but tbh I was really tired at the time so it's kinda a blur

[opal trout]

if its fair to re-read Unveiling as metaphors, what would "T = 0" be talking about?

[dim minnow]

the first conflict between Light and Dark

as well as the creation of our Universe and how the Vex came to be

[little gorge]

well not really the witness

[chrome fog]

They already tweeted that the cutscene will be available into next year’s campaign, and as for other seasonal content they already have taken some of Destiny Lore Vault’s job of archiving footage from the seasons.
As for the latter part of this message, https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/689677141012381726/1121471819828961280/image0.jpg

It should have been in Lightfall, but there were critical elements that were not able to be completed by then due to real world issues the studio was dealing with

[chrome fog]

I’d like to propose again that the Witness species imposed the image of the ‘Winnower’ unto the Veil as they were expecting more from the companion entity to their deity, and that the Winnower as a concept is simply their idealized version of their god

We know the Darkness and the Veil predate the Witness, so it itself cannot be the creator of such, but we do know that the Darkness provided by the Witness to the species and individuals it has ‘sponsored’ in a way is different to Darkness as we know it

Savathun recognized as much, calling the Witness a “corrupting influence in the Darkness.” and specifically rebelled against them because even she saw what a bad idea it was to follow the Witness

[fiery copper]

hoooooold on a second

does the cutscene mean

the witness

is canonically

they/them

literally a psychic conglomerate

not singular they/them, they/them as in multiple people

[trim grotto]

It did refer to itself as "we". So, yeah, I suppose so.

[opal trout]

Bruh

[green cobalt]

oui 🥖

[fiery copper]

i always knew i was a traveler simp

omnicide is one thing

[green cobalt]

[fiery copper]

being european is another

he wants everything to be dead, aka EQUAL

sounds like COMMUNISM to me

meanwhile the traveler creates the paracausal equivalent of Rich Kids by rezzing guardians with godlike powers

i am simply better at business, that's why i'm rich

[ember storm]

although that’s the origin of the witness, it’s another entity entirely now

I’m pretty sure characters call the witness an “it”

[fiery copper]

dont care, witness is a Plural icon