📚lore-discussion

[odd flicker]

I think it more implied that ||the Winnower is the Veil||

[little gorge]

not really the entity we know as the winnower from unveiling

[odd flicker]

Yeah, moreso the opposite of the Traveler.

[smoky rose]

But they desired ||purpose, a winnower, which the Veil was not. They didn't achieve what they wanted to with it, so they became the winnower themselves||

[ancient fox]

Oh god theyre going to retcon the best lorebook in the game

[torpid flint]

I think they became their own Winnowner

[smoky rose]

Not at all a retcon

Did you forget that Unveiling was propaganda to start with

[odd flicker]

I'm not going to spoiler tag. It's been out for 2 and a half hours lol.

[torpid flint]

I literally forgot how to do that

[torpid flint]

POV: a new Star Wars episode came out .5 seconds ago

[smoky rose]

Now I do think it is worth noting that the Witness' people used the same terminology that was used in Unveiling

[odd flicker]

Ahsa said "they sought a Winnower" and then immediately mentioned them finding the Veil, and them trying to use the Veil to do what they wanted, which was curb the potential rampant chaotic growth they saw in the Traveler.

[smoky rose]

But then it says "they became the salvation (in this case I believe that to be the winnower) they craved

[devout nimbus]

Oh that scene is released now

[smoky rose]

Now coincidentally this also explains why Unveiling lines up with the Witness' actions so perfectly

[devout nimbus]

I thought it was pretty interesting

[odd flicker]

Yeah, I think this most likely means they became "Salvation" in the sense that they were going to keep hunting down the Traveler to bring the Veil to it, thereby "saving" the universe.

[smoky rose]

You'll note that the Veil's actions do not in any way shape or form line up with that of the Winnower in unveiling, but the Witness' do

[little gorge]

ig it would be more accurate to say "they became the one who would bring salvation"

or the one who embodies it

[chrome fog]

I was just discussing a theory that aligns with what the cutscene shows yesterday, and how Unveiling is propaganda to purposefully make us feel antagonized by the Winnower, only because we weren’t familiar with it at that point

[smoky rose]

Well let's start with what was it that they craved
The only thing that is mentioned they desired before that point in the cutscene is a winnower

[little gorge]

purpose

[smoky rose]

Purpose, a winnower

The same thing basically

[little gorge]

btw this really puts what the witness said in the lightfall intro into context

"you lack purpose, because you fear to seek one"

[heavy vortex]

You don’t have to use a spoiler tag no, but a lot of people do to avoid spoiling others who might come here to ask something completely unrelated. Hence why you might see some members spoiler tag their messages about the new cutscene.

[chrome fog]

Perhaps that was talking about our own aversion to subscribing to the Sword Logic, that we must all assert our strength over each other through murder and physical oppression

That and the philosophy of the ‘Winnower’ in Unveiling definitely align with what goals we can assume the Witness has

In that it is a severely nihilistic being seeking the end of life as we know it, whether by literally snuffing it all out or changing the whole system of living

[velvet flax]

This now raises 2 important questions now though: How did the Traveller come to exist and how did the Veil come to exist

[chrome fog]

And I want to pull that back to the Akashic Records thing and the portal, but then I’d be rambling on forever

[frigid sparrow]

damn that was such a cool and interesting cutscene, imagine if it happened like 4 months ago during a time where it'd actually matter and not in the middle of a boring ass seasonal "story"

[paper kayak]

so destiny is gurren lagann 2?

wack cutscene

[velvet flax]

what is also interesting is that we once thought the top part of that Vow mural is meant to be the Traveller but its actually The Veil

[frigid sparrow]

why are we learning more about the veil in this single cutscene than we are from weeks worth of audio logs dedicated to learning about the veil

[velvet flax]

i mean ngl we still dont know much about it

except its the Dark Mirror of the Traveller that Xur said all that time ago

[frigid sparrow]

that's the part that makes it even worse

[velvet flax]

hehe

[velvet flax]

this line is from D1 which is cool

Means the Nine know much more than they ever revealed (which is kinda obvious)

and the fact theyve been mentioned a lot recently along with Orin suggests to me we're getting a Nine season soon

(Season of the Drifter 2 )

[frigid sparrow]

but like knowing that the veil is ||connected to the darkness in a way that allowed the witness to study the dark and what it's capable while still leaving room for its origins|| is far more than "the vex have difficulties with paracausal stuff" or "HEY REMEMBER SIVA"

for a mission and audio log exploration of what's supposed to be the veil's nature, veil containment hasn't done much actual explanation about the veil

[steel nova]

Arc gambit

[chrome fog]

Mmmmmmm i think yes my theory is close to what the truth is

But now the conflicting part of it is how did the Gardener become the Traveler prior to the Witness’ creation?

Unless it reduced itself a la Jesus-style to experience how it is to be within the game itself

Drifter I love you man

[iron bramble]

do we know what nezzy looked like b4 RON

[safe galleon]

Yes and no

There's a statue of what looks like his old body in the beginning of the raid, but it's kinda like

[iron bramble]

wym

[safe galleon]

Obscured

Like it looks a bit janky

[iron bramble]

yeah

wasnt this him b4 RON

[slim mulch]

so
i'm stupid
||can someone explain to me more why in the cutscene the witness's civilization turned to the darkness a lil more clearly?||
||i dont really understand how they thought that the light could bring "unfettered chaos" and that the darkness could remove that chaos?||
||i guess its an order versus chaos thing, but i'm just kinda dumb and it confused me quite a bit lol||
spoilers for seasonal story

||it just really confuses me how they went from this civilization which prospered under the light, to one that saw the light as a chaotic entity which needed to stopped by the darkness?||

also idk if i need the spoiler tags, but better safe then sorry

[safe galleon]

as i understand, the light as a concept is more or less synonymous with creation and change. for example, the traveler outright has the ability to create life and terraform uninhabitable planets. our ghosts have the ability to resurrect us and remake our bodies. in the unveiling lorebook, the gardener is said to have created paracausality because she wanted to see change, something more dynamic than the "natural" state of life culminating in one final shape

[slim mulch]

ye, i understand what the light v darkness symbolize from our POV, im just confused on the POV of the ||witness's civilization post veil||
but someone dm'd me a fair explanation on it

[safe galleon]

i think the unveiling lorebook has a simile in there somewhere comparing the light to cancer, since cancer is technically pure "creation"; cells multiplying uncontrollably. the light is an agent of creation and change, and that includes stuff that isn't necessarily good

i mean just look at our light powers, they're kind of terrifying 😭

harnessing the power of nuclear fusion, gravity and emptiness, etc.

[iron bramble]

wdym

[slim mulch]

You explained it

[iron bramble]

huh

oh yeah i did

mb

[chrome fog]

That’s fanart theorizing what he’d look like, with a weird filter over it

[iron bramble]

dang aii

[chrome fog]

Not AI, it was an original illustration

[versed orbit]

Ain’t this him

[chrome fog]

But there’s weird filter shit smearing it in Vaseline

[chrome fog]

That is Nezarec yes

But it’s a side view and a big portion of him is covered

[odd flicker]

It's entirely possible Nezarec's form was drastically altered during RoN, an entirely new body was made for him.

[chrome fog]

There’s also the mention of his many tombs in lore entries related to him, suggesting he constantly shifts physical forms

He also speaks to us after his death in RoN

So he’s not gone for good

[odd flicker]

Also, I was thinking about it, the Witness itself could potentially be seen as a contradiction to the Final Shape theory.

Seeing as how it's not the last being left of a race that cut each other down, but rather the amalgamation of a people into one body. Many forces uniting into one, rather than the strongest force surviving.

[odd flicker]

I hope he is, really don't wanna waste any more precious storytelling time on him.

[chrome fog]

That can be seen as simplifying the entire race into one being

[odd flicker]

True but the power isn't being "taken" or proven in any way.

[chrome fog]

Perhaps they took inspiration from the Vex assimilating everything into themselves; they are now one mind focused onto one goal: to Winnow and cut away all life to achieve what they view as the perfect Final Shape

They’re a collective consciousness of a civilization that apparently reached peak development and became despondent with how reality was, and were disappointed that the being that granted them such advancement did not give them any guidance

And so they go seeking other sources of guidance, in particular another entity similar to the one that uplifted them, but still they don’t find this ‘purpose’, this refinement of their lives

But they do find a new power, the Darkness

[worldly river]

Damn that cutscene holy shit I wasn't expecting a lore bomb quite like that

[worldly river]

Maybe, but given the pile of bodies the process could easily have been it "taking" power from every member of its civilization by killing and absorbing them

[pine lion]

OKOKOK I JUST SAW THIS WEEKS AHSA AND SLOANE INTERACTION

Bro this cinematic really gave me an Idea of what the Witness is doing

And what the “witness” actually is

But can some lore person help me understand what I just saw?

[empty fern]

Basically

[chrome fog]

In order for him to be in his body active outside, he has to be out of the CloudArk. It doesn’t work like the Deep Stone Crypt where they keep a mindscan and you reupload the mind into a new body. The CloudArk is more akin to a super advanced Metaverse or VRchat, a virtual space you can enter

[iron bramble]

oryx and savathicc can still comeback tho

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
They’re a collective consciousness of a civilization that apparently reached peak development and became despondent with how reality was, and were disappointed that the being that granted them such advancement did not give them any guidance

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jun 20, 2023, 10:02 PM

[slim elk]

Brief summary
Witness civilization asked the meaning of Life to the Gardener, it refused to answer.
They sought answers, found them in the Veil (Winnower) and decided to impose their order on the universe

[chrome fog]

Watch for rule 3; Savathun can come back, and Oryx might be able to come back, but we specifically thwarted an attempt to revive him with a ghost

[odd flicker]

Yeah I'm not saying that's 100% the case, just that it might be an interesting perspective they could bring up.

[iron bramble]

i kinda hope they bring both of em back

[pine lion]

But the Gardener Realized their plan to reveal the universes secrets so it fled

And Im guessing it either decided to give its gifts to the Eliksni

And then us

[odd flicker]

Because you could technically say this about our current alliance. Simplifying Awoken, Cabal, and Vanguard forces into one army.

[slim elk]

Very wrong

[odd flicker]

Nah I think this was waaaaay before Eliksni.

[pine lion]

My bad

[chrome fog]

Savathun is being built up to joining our ranks by sheer necessity, but Oryx is still up in the air

[slim elk]

Millenia long chase ensued. Travelers visited countless races and kept running away

[pine lion]

Cuz they all wanted to learn the truth and recieve guidance from it? Or cuz the Witness and its veil is getting closer

[odd flicker]

I actually have a feeling it might be the other way around. Maybe the Witness inspired the Vex.

[slim elk]

So..
Yeah.
Witness seems to be right in the Traveler having nowhere else to run

[chrome fog]

Wow really

[slim elk]

?

[iron bramble]

yeah thats what i mean

[chrome fog]

The Sol System is surrounded by Pyramid ships and very nearly got taken a second time in Arrivals

[iron bramble]

idk its kinda wild but i kinda hope we get all 3 hive gods on our side

but highly unlikely

[chrome fog]

Cannot wait to guilt trip Xivu Arath into an alliance

[iron bramble]

rs

[slim elk]

Traveller does manage to GTFO per Elsies testimony in Dark Future.. and ends up being caged and towed back to Sol lol

[iron bramble]

itd be fire to have all 3 on our side

[slim elk]

Nah. Xivu has a worm problem still

[odd flicker]

I am interested in seeing how we beat Xivu. I'm assuming it's going to be through her worm.

[slim elk]

Best bet would be her sacrificing herself to kill the worm

[worldly river]

Not how that works, their minds aren't backed up to the Cloudark, they've essentially plugged themselves into a an augmented reality simulation so they can continue to live instead of being stuck in cryosleep indefinitely

[chrome fog]

Xivu hasn’t had any issues with her worm because she’s been steadily feeding it instead of gorging it immediately

[slim elk]

It sounds very similar to how the Witness was created

[odd flicker]

Yeah but she's becoming pretty unhinged from the sounds of it.

[worldly river]

Rohan and Nimbus aren't uploaded to it at all

[odd flicker]

Or, actually, they probably should pay off on the feelings of longing both her and Savvy have mentioned.

[chrome fog]

And unlike Savathun, there’s no real need for constant ante with the conflict because that’s just naturally how the fights have been escalating

[worldly river]

I wouldn't say any more than the thematic throughline of mind stuff which is kinda the Darkness's thing

[slim elk]

I mean, their minds are all uploaded to one system in the Cloudark. We seen deaths as a result of that action (the whole generation of kids killed by Aesop)

[chrome fog]

Stc

By that logic the Deep Stone Crypt’s memory banks can become just like the Witness, what with both being a large collection of minds gathered together in a collective system

[worldly river]

Yeah but their minds are just uploaded, they aren't merged like with the Witness

[slim elk]

Yep
But I recall Maya was pushing the whole Integration of Neomuna with the Veil... and muttered Salvation

Even dropped the line they "were past morality"

If nothing else, have to admit the concept is extremely similar to the Witness creation

[worldly river]

I really don't think it is

[ember storm]

we have literally zero info on the witness' creation?

[worldly river]

There's a massive difference between uploading minds to a network and merging them together

[ember storm]

unless its entire backstory came out in the past few weeks

[worldly river]

Today yes

[slim elk]

Yeah... it just did Waltz

[ember storm]

was it the not-worm

[chrome fog]

This reset

[ember storm]

run me through it

[worthy raft]

play the current weeks story maybe?

literally explains everything

its like

5 minutes

[slim mulch]

Play this weeks story, a few dialogue things through and it explainsnit

[chrome fog]

You do a lost sector in the Throneworld after talking to the vendor and then Ahsa does a cutscene, the very same that was leaked

[ember storm]

i'm in an airport

[slim mulch]

One sec

https://youtu.be/GN7QkdWMV18

[worthy raft]

watch the cutscene on youtube or something if you dont want to wait

[slim mulch]

Esoterickk vid has it

[worthy raft]

nothing happens before the cutscene anyways

[worldly river]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39g-MlLznXw||

Someone beat me to it lol

[slim mulch]

Pre cutscene is just drifter talking about his life

[chrome fog]

It was Saint

[slim mulch]

oh

[chrome fog]

He was talking about how Xivu is exploiting Sloane’s duty against her, baiting her in a similar manner to Osiris

[slim mulch]

yeah sorry, thats post

im thinkin of

the radio message

[chrome fog]

Post is Drifter talking about trusting Orin and not the Nine, with weird hints of him crushing on Orin

[slim mulch]

yeah, so him talkin bout his life
sorry im stupid and say stuff weirdly

[slim elk]

Anyway. I'm just real leery because of Maya getting corrupted... and Neomunas got a system where every civilians mind is in the same connected network

[chrome fog]

Ur good

[slim mulch]

I should prob catch up on the veil stuff tbh

Whats goin on there

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGsqTQhhpI8

SIVA background... literally

[slim mulch]

Huh
Neat

Ill watch it when i got time

[slim elk]

Nothing about the Veil in that log

[ember storm]

does nimbus not know what exos are

"Am I really part vex?"

join the club

[slim mulch]

I dont think neomuna does in general

[slim elk]

Nimbus failed to even know the Veil was found on Neomuna

[slim mulch]

Leas not nearly as much as we do

[chrome fog]

Anyways, regarding Freak’s spiel, I already have a message going on about how I don’t think the Veil is malevolent with the red herring of Maya going through what Clovis did but with a different Darkness source, which it itself conflicts with a byproduct of the Witness’ brand of Darkness

[slim elk]

Basic facts are lost on Neomuna.. by design lol

[ember storm]

i'm starting to understand rohan was the brains of the operation

nimbus definitely has heart and convition

[slim mulch]

Isnt there a calerendo thing where they talk about them being surprised exos existed still

[ember storm]

but like

they definitely need osiris on speed dial

[ember storm]

i tune out everything colorado says

i don't like that person

[slim mulch]

Fair, its only really good for skiing

And aircraft testing

[slim elk]

TBF to Nimbus, it's by design
Neomuna's past government (and likely current one) redacted a lot of stuff and rewrote history heh

[chrome fog]

He’s neat, Candernoodle

[slim mulch]

Idk anything else relevant about coloardo

You guys still think he's nezzy

Cuz like

Im holdin onto that

[ember storm]

i'm just saying

[slim elk]

But yeah. Big thing on the Veil today is..
Based on evidence
Veil=Winnower

[ember storm]

neomuna's people are sorely uneducated

califlower is the only news person we know about

what's the easiest way for a ruling power to control the viewpoints of citizens?

[dim minnow]

Miso Carbonara

[ember storm]

news and media

[slim mulch]

Still sayin

[slim elk]

Ignorance and false history
Rewrite the past lol

[ember storm]

i just don't think california is "blissfully ignorant"

[chrome fog]

This is Mia khalifa with Neomuna Civil News

[ancient fox]

Jisu Calerando is with the lamestream media I dont trust him

[slim mulch]

Mr cardamom is def nezzy

[ember storm]

would surely be an incredible surprise to find out neomuna civil news is held afloat by incredibly generous donations by the government

[slim mulch]

The chicken we killed in ron was a replica

[ember storm]

that would definitely be super surprising

anyway

[chrome fog]

Y’know what? There is a conspiracy in Neomuna, but only because the higher ups themselves barely have a grasp on what’s going on

[slim mulch]

prob

[ember storm]

how does all of this mesh with savathun's info wars

[slim mulch]

i wouldnt be surprised if neomunas just stupidly ignorant

[chrome fog]

No manipulation, no evil schemes, just human mistakes

[ember storm]

and the tree theory

[slim mulch]

[ember storm]

how does it look for the tree theory

[chrome fog]

Cause evil governments are dumb and stupid as a plot twist at this point of the story

And it’s clear they’re it all these knowledgeable even with the best intentions

[slim mulch]

everyone does the evil shadow government thing that secretly oppresses its citizens

i want a "we just really have no fuckin clue what we're doin"

aka my average stellaris empire

[slim elk]

Nah. They buried basic facts on their own tech lol

[chrome fog]

Veil is giving gifts like the Traveler cause it’s like the Traveler, not cause it wants stuff to die

[slim elk]

Nimbus didn't even know the Veil was found on Neptune

The most basic fact, unknown by design

[ember storm]

ooh

just had a brainwave

we're gonna get a really good evaze thumbnail out of this

[slim mulch]

no

why would you think that

out of everything

[ember storm]

they're always amazing

[slim mulch]

tbf, guy's thumbnails are at least entertaining enough compared to most D2 youtubers

[slim elk]

Here's byfs latest for comparison
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W02W44H30kA

[ember storm]

y'know

the thought that an entire civilization blended together had to deal with rhulk's flamboyant ass for however long

it makes the entire narrative fulfilling

[slim pewter]

Its cool that we know what was already kinda suspected

[chrome fog]

They’re entertaining in that how can anyone take him seriously, they look photoshopped to hell

[slim pewter]

Whos thumbnails?

[chrome fog]

Evaze

[dim minnow]

I bet his thumbnail for this week's cutscene is going to have the Veil statue in some form

also, I just noticed something

the divided circular symbol in the top center of this image appears in the new cutscene

[ember storm]

the neomuna symbol being the veil was more of a revelation to me tbh

[dim minnow]

and it is put over the Veil in that cutscene, so the symbol likely represents the Veil

[slim elk]

So
This explains the Witness.. how we getting through the portal?

[dim minnow]

just watch, Ahsa or Sloane is going to get screwed over next week preventing us from learning how

[slim elk]

Nah. Think it might be an answer beyond our reach at present (Mercury and the "song" Vance had been looking into)

Or..
Something that will cross a line everyone will hesitate about. Reviving Savathun

Remember her games about the Witness? Truths here..

[dim minnow]

you know, Savathun literally told us the Witness' origins in Altar of Reflection

only she also gave us alternate versions so we wouldn't know which one was correct (if any of them were)

[slim elk]

Yep. So she knew it better then anyone...

And if anyone would know something about the portal besides the Witness...

Would be the Witch Queen

[chrome fog]

I mean, they literally said Ahsa is about to show how to got though the portal it’s very easy to see what’s going to happen in the story

[slim elk]

Forgetting we have two seasons worth (and multiple weeks of "dead air") till Final Shape 😉

[ember storm]

remember when the seasonal storyline wasn't overwhelmingly obvious by week 4

[slim elk]

Even with the knowledge, won't be easy

[chrome fog]

I don’t mind it, it’s giving us plenty of info on the Witness and the Veil

[dim minnow]

little disappointed

[chrome fog]

A real ‘huh’ moment

[torpid flint]

So technically

We had our darkness species

[ember storm]

the witness is an entire species condensed into one

a specie if you will

[limpid flower]

yas

[fresh zephyr]

I'm so interested of what the traveler really is!

Where did it come from, what does it really want?

[ember storm]

the gardener

she came from the garden

she wants life in the universe to live proper, fulfilled lives

[slim mulch]

Was it uh
Ever explained how the traveler got from the last city into the throne world during the last mission of witch queen
I cant seem to find one besides "savathun put it there"

[slim elk]

Nope

Mara was investigating how she pulled that trick and hasn't gotten back to us on it yet

[slim mulch]

Alr thanks

Damn

Long investigation huh

[slim elk]

Best guess is was "webbing" the traveler there in the throne world

[slim mulch]

Idk

[ember storm]

she stole it

[slim mulch]

She just

[ember storm]

savathun specifically mentions it during her plan

[slim mulch]

Took it

[ember storm]

you know

[slim mulch]

Like
Thats it

[slim elk]

Toast wants to know how she stole it lol

[ember storm]

"I won't play second fiddle to my brother Oryx"

she used the power to take

she took it

that's what the power is

[slim mulch]

She had the power to take?

[ember storm]

you physically just take a thing

[slim mulch]

Okay

So

Im gonna go with no

Allright thanks yall

[slim elk]

Savathun causally stealing da moon!

Don't really expect much of an explanation unless we can pull the same trick

But as Titan returned with no explanation....

[steel nova]

power overwhelming

[shell wave]

why is it called the Witness
what was it a witness of

[ember storm]

it's a court case

we need to call saul

[slim elk]

It witnessed the Meaning of Life

||Nothing at all||

[smoky rose]

Did you watch the cutscene today

[smoky rose]

Also yeah deadass this

[slim elk]

Could be even worse actually
"Nothing but a piece in a game the Gardener wanted to play with me."

[ember storm]

that's a joker level quote

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NC16orUje4M&pp=ygUZS2lsbGluZyBqb2tlIGpva2VyIHNwZWVjaA%3D%3D

Funny part of all this?
Winnower could have said nothing but the truth here to the Witness.......

Traveler refused to speak despite knowing the answer...

[chrome fog]

Power of Taking

Taking itself is just teleporting something

[hollow zealot]

do cabal have tails

[chrome fog]

Rule 3

[real ingot]

@fringe lantern

[fringe lantern]

[daring iris]

I'd bet a lot of money that inside the physical traveler there's an exact mirror image of the veil

the veil always looked to me like it was cut in half

its literally a half-spheroid

I bet the other half is the true traveler

[outer dragon]

So I finally got around to being able to play today. WTF this should have been the season that dropped WITH Lightfall

[tacit nexus]

sheesh crazy lore drop

I had to hold on not to watch that cutscene when it leaked

[outer dragon]

Yeah, I hate how people treat spoilers sometimes

Like it is MY fault I have to go to work and can't always play before

[tacit nexus]

we finally know what thr hell is the veil

[torpid flint]

|| ||

[tacit nexus]

[torpid flint]

Veil is unveiling veil lore

[outer dragon]

Like I said, this should have been the season that dropped WITH Lightfall. The Cabal prisoner shit could have been done in the second season and would feel more realistic. Why would Calus attack Neomuna AND Earth?

[tacit nexus]

that is still unexplained ngl

I dont think we ever got answers

[outer dragon]

Handwaving "experiments"

[tacit nexus]

maybe they were making another witness

[iron bramble]

so over its entire lifetime the witness has only had 3 disciples?

[outer dragon]

That we are aware of

[iron bramble]

oh oaky

okay

[dim minnow]

more than 3 known actually

[iron bramble]

did the witness have more than 2 disciples at a single point?

[dim minnow]

Rhulk, Nezarec, and Calus are the only known named ones

[iron bramble]

kk

[dim minnow]

there is a 4th who is long dead

[dim minnow]

it is believed that Nezarec was annointed as a disciple by Rhulk

[iron bramble]

yeahh thats what i mean

did rhulk give up his position as one or was there js 2

[dim minnow]

no

many different disciples

each with their own interpretation of the FInal Shape

thinking that the Witness cared about them like the fools they are

[warm cave]

So is it reasonable for a fallen captain to get the light from a shard of the traveler in the edz and for him to get the darkness from eramis and for him to be captured by the witness and he proved himself worthy to become a disciple?

[golden wolf]

sounds like a whole ass journey there
certainly possible, but imo not probable

[warm cave]

Bet

Imma make a story out of this

Not here of course

[outer dragon]

I would argue that Calus was no true Disciple.

[golden wolf]

he got that darkness glow up, but never properly received his rank
I can see that being the case

witness using him as a foothold in Sol and a means to an end

[warm cave]

Wasn’t he a Herald tho

[golden wolf]

yea, a herald is different to a disciple tho imo

[warm cave]

God I hate spell check sometimes

[warm cave]

Oh okay

[rich veldt]

no

the only reason the shard had any effect on us is we are already a risen with a ghost

we dont know if the eliksni can wield the light

[outer dragon]

He was bait. Once the Raidial Mast was blown up, the Witness had no way of making a connection. The Witness KNEW we wouldn't let Calus do anything to the Veil, even if WITHOUT the Radial Mast. Of course without the Radial Mast he likely couldn't have done anything and we now know that if the Witness had brought the Veil TO the Traveler, it would have tried to leave.

The Witness KNEW it could use our Ghost to make a link with the Veil and do what it needed to with the Traveler.

[dim minnow]

I'd say he was still one, just a very incompetent one

[outer dragon]

See right above you for my reasoning why I disagree

[dim minnow]

final mission legit proved that Calus was capable of breaking into the Veil Containment from the get-go

[rich veldt]

the rest of your stuff mrmocap idk, i dont believe it has to be eramis for eliksni to learn stasis, but the becoming a disciple is unlikely

[golden wolf]

and by definition, a herald is just a sign of things to come, so he probably wasn't up in the higher echelons like rhulk or nezzy, probably more of an initiate

[dim minnow]

counterpoint, the Witness never truly gave a damn about any of its disciples

[warm cave]

Okay

Then I’ll just make him reallly really good at using stasis

Wait

[rich veldt]

calus was almost definatley a desperation hire fated to die, just a big enough target to get close enough to the veil

[warm cave]

No wait nvm

[outer dragon]

The Witness used them like chess peices. Rhulk was his Queen, able to go pretty much anywhere and handle most any task. Nez would be one of the mid tier pieces (rook, bishop, knight) a useful tool if used properly. Calus was a simple pawn, sacrificed to further the goal of checkmate.

[warm cave]

I was gonna say strand but the guardians are one of the only few who know it exists

[outer dragon]

He blundered Nezzy away though

[dim minnow]

still was on the board though

[warm cave]

Man

I need to read up on more lore

Anyway

[rich veldt]

we are always here to help

[warm cave]

I loved how you described this

[warm cave]

Thanks

[golden wolf]

every time I think of calus I'm reminded of the fact that he wrote effectively fanfiction about our guardians lmao

[rich veldt]

well akshually, he had scribes to do the writing, he just came up with some stories

[golden wolf]

kek

correct me if I am wrong, but the lore tab on mida multi basically indicated that the gun is capable of modifying itself to add new features right?

[rich veldt]

have you got said lore tab to hand?

[warm cave]

Could stasis be formed into a hammer?

And if so

[warm cave]

Why don’t titans use it I mean it’s a copy of the bonk hammer but it would be its opposite

[dim minnow]

Warlocks can form it into a staff, Hunters can form it into icepicks, and Kridis can make swords out of it

[golden wolf]

its been shown that light can be shaped into a plethora of different forms, example, shaw han and his golden gun well
so it can be expected that darkness would be the same

[outer dragon]

Because that would require Bungie to be creative when it comes to Titan melees and they have given up on that

[warm cave]

Aight

Aight

[rich veldt]

perchance, im getting those vibes from it

[warm cave]

Wait, so our guardians chose their supers?

[golden wolf]

hunter melees are only knives or weeb weapons, titans only punch and warlocks are always some space magic bs
thanks bungie

[dim minnow]

I wonder how many people don't know that Kridis has a unique melee attack where she creates swords out of stasis to attack you

[golden wolf]

doesn't she have stasis blades when she is in her idle pose before we start the encounter? could be wrong

[rich veldt]

the class system is very strict in game compared to lore

[warm cave]

Woah

I never knew that

[rich veldt]

hunter has punch aswell smh

[green cobalt]

game has to be strict or else it'd be hell

[warm cave]

Also we know what the veil is

[outer dragon]

In universe the class system is more... fluid, than the game would indicate.
There are multiple instances of named guardians doing things normally expected of a class other than one they are typically labled with

[warm cave]

YAY

[dim minnow]

the Winnower

[warm cave]

I was shocked

[golden wolf]

I've always been of the opinion that celestial nighthawk supers would just be a single shot from a flaming sniper rather than just one shot from a hand cannon
but alas

[rich veldt]

is this from season story or veil containment

[golden wolf]

seasonal

[rich veldt]

god damnit i fucked around and found out

[golden wolf]

cool ink blot cutscene :)

[rich veldt]

oh i already knew a cutscene was coming thanks alot stupid youtube

[outer dragon]

All hunters are huge nerds that make a golden hand cannon when using the super because that is what a famous hunter that used the super did. It has been shown in lore that they can make ANY weapon into a Golden weapon

[dim minnow]

I am sort of joking

the cutscene states that the Traveler is 100% the Gardener

and that the Veil is 100% a Darkness counterpart to the Traveler

[golden wolf]

solar warlock super that is basically just fire version of chaos reach :)
I need it

[green cobalt]

who's to say a guardian can't make a flaming celestial minigun

[rich veldt]

damn just more evidence for the pile next time that argument comes up

[golden wolf]

summons a massive 40mm cannon

[outer dragon]

They can. They are just all huge fanboys for a famous hunter.

[dim minnow]

never outright says that the Veil is the Winnower, but it makes the idea much more plausible

[green cobalt]

whomst

[rich veldt]

anything on the witness aswell? or just the ball and the veil

[golden wolf]

we got witness backstory

[dim minnow]

it's either that or one of two things:

1. The Witness decided to take up the mantle of Winnower
2. "The Winnower isn't real" I say to myself as I close my eyes and ram into the Tower gift shop in my shitty bronco

[green cobalt]

yeah the entire cutscene is witness backstory

[rich veldt]

so it was an accurate title then, fuck youtube

[golden wolf]

at this point, I think Winnower is just a name they attatched to a concept or an idea, not anywhere near as literal as the Gardener/Traveler

[green cobalt]

surely the winnower is the combination of the witness and the veil, the veil itself can't winnow anything (pretty sure)

[dim minnow]

they already said that Ahsa was going to tell us the Witness' origins from the start of the season

[golden wolf]

ngl, looking forward to what Ahsa tells us next week

[dim minnow]

I'd say that the exos of the Exodus Indigo were pretty damn winnowed

[green cobalt]

well ok

[golden wolf]

ye, they did go kapoot

[green cobalt]

but they were exos so... skill issue?

[dim minnow]

the Veil said "it's winnowing time" and winnowed all of Neomuna's exo population

[rich veldt]

its more youtube had the audacity at the start of the season to show me the leaked version of the cutscene even tho i already blocked alot of leak related stuff

[golden wolf]

wasn't it also driving some of the non exo population a little loopy?

[outer dragon]

Shin, I would find the exact lore but my brain ins't working well right now.

[rich veldt]

well i guess im free to read the crypatrchy

[golden wolf]

also, siva mention in veil containment lore :)

[real ingot]

nothing new

[green cobalt]

yea

[real ingot]

just confirms Silver as originating from Siva

[green cobalt]

SILVA real

[golden wolf]

ye, we'd kinda guessed ages ago that siva had smth todo with the nano tech the cloudstriders use

[rich veldt]

as in its dead right?

[golden wolf]

more they mixed it with vex shit and plonked it in the supposedly dead exos, kinda spooky

[rich veldt]

good still means its dead

and yeah thats fucked up

[golden wolf]

what do you have against everyones fav nano tech?

[rich veldt]

it must die

[golden wolf]

y

[rich veldt]

fuck siva

aint even that cool

[golden wolf]

to each their own, I think its dope af

[chrome fog]

Wouldn’t copying the hammer onto another class just prove this point and therefore the giant Ice Fist works to diversify Titans’ variety of melee options?

[golden wolf]

mfw punch is the entire identity of arc titan

[rich veldt]

siva is very cool dont get me wrong, its just all the fan boys

[green cobalt]

bungie already said it's dead

[rich veldt]

and a good portion of hunters

[green cobalt]

just arc

[rich veldt]

nah locks never punch

[chrome fog]

Mine does for the finishers

[rich veldt]

anyways i musta go

[chrome fog]

Weekly mission is easy as heck, just do a lost sector and get the cutscene

[rich veldt]

didnt know it was that short

[dim minnow]

next week will have another actual mission though

at least it should

[chrome fog]

Probably was made this way because everyone’s being insufferably pissy about the Veil and other such things

[dim minnow]

there is 1 more hidden triumph related to missions

[golden wolf]

yea, 1 more week left before the story wraps up, then we sit around waiting for the holiday event and end of season :)

[green cobalt]

nobody would've been pissy about the veil had the cinematic been in Lightfall to begin with

[golden wolf]

^

[green cobalt]

as it is you can't see it in game if you don't own the season and you won't be able to see it in a year

[chrome fog]

And they struggled to do so because they were still developing a new subclasses, about to undergo staff changes, and pushed two incredible dlcs during the pandemic years wow

[green cobalt]

crazy how i don't care

not my problem

[chrome fog]

[green cobalt]

they can always delay DLC

as they have before

[chrome fog]

Have they really?

[green cobalt]

witch queen was delayed

season of the lost lasted like 6 months

[dim minnow]

Beyond Light as well

[green cobalt]

right

[chrome fog]

Then fair

[dim minnow]

Arrivals was also twice as long

Shadowkeep was delayed by a few weeks as well

[green cobalt]

yeah...

[chrome fog]

And were there complaints of these last seasons taking so long to end?

[green cobalt]

[chrome fog]

Then it’s still an issue

There’s barely any win for Bungie in this situation, they just work with what they have

Maybe patience would help with them dealing with these issues

[green cobalt]

what they have is been acquired by Sony for 3.6 billion dollars

anyway i think we've derailed long enough

[chrome fog]

I think I’ve run my daily time in this server for long enough

Always a sore head afterwards

[devout nimbus]

Smh

No derailing!

[outer dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/off-the-rails-train-trending-jump-the-tracks-gif-15835894

LOL

So on topic

Who would win in a fair fight
Saint or Zavala

[devout nimbus]

Saint

[fresh zephyr]

Bungo locking the most important cutscenes behind a paywall

[fresh zephyr]

Saint wipes a lot of people

Saint would wipe our guardian

[outer dragon]

Saint vs Ikora?

[fresh zephyr]

Ok

Let me think

Yeah I don't know

[rich veldt]

and i return to powerscalling

[dim minnow]

I recall someone asking who would win between Eris and Ikora

I simply responded with this:

[devout nimbus]

Lmao

[devout nimbus]

Nahh

[outer dragon]

LOL

[devout nimbus]

Guardian the best

[echo citrus]

Man witness is just zavala pulling the biggest prank ever existed

[obsidian kernel]

So…

The Veil is to the Darkness what the Traveller is to the Light?

[rich veldt]

it seems

[devout nimbus]

Yup pretty much

[dim minnow]

which means the Veil is the Winnower

[somber marlin]

was there still snow in russia during the red war

[broken relic]

So does this retcon Unveiling

[dim minnow]

I don't think so

[sick yew]

I mean the origin of the traveler and the Vex are essentially completely unknown again

[broken relic]

How

[sick yew]

The Vex being a pattern that survived when the garden game became reality was one of the most agreed on theories on their origin at least so far

[dim minnow]

Dreams of Alpha Lupi, the Black Garden, and the Vex all align perfectly with Unveiling

[broken relic]

So the flower game is retconned?

[sick yew]

But does it do so with the new cutscene?

[dim minnow]

why wouldn't it?

not like Unveiling is supposed to be about the Witness' species specifically

[broken relic]

If it does I’m kinda done it’s so fucking funny how the Winnower dissed how boring nihilists are only to be retconned in favor of the most boring nihilist ever

Christ I don’t want to be negative about it but Unveiling was what made me fall in love with Destiny’s lore to throw it’s importance if not it entirely away to make the big conflict grr me angry bad things happen just fucking sucks

[dense warren]

what’s the name of saladin’s ghost

[rich veldt]

perchance. i dont think theres any lore on it tbh

[somber marlin]

I will use it as a yes for guardian lore

ty

again

[restive wing]

i was told to put this here. who was dredgen hope? it was the drifter but like what did he do. dredgen yor was cursed by a hive wizard to kill people but i have no clue what dredgen hope did

[green cobalt]

Isirah

[trim grotto]

The Dredgens after Yor were basically fanboys who made their own special spooky club. They weren't the same as Yor.

Drifter joined them to learn what they knew, but had no real allegiance to them.

[real ingot]

If anything this cutscene shows us how the Witness gained knowledge of the flower game

[trim grotto]

Afterwards, he and Shin worked together to reclaim the title of Dredgen for the Guardians of Gambit, who would tame the Darkness without corruption.

Those who still wanted more power, the corruption, the danger, joined the Shadows of Yor. And then, they were culled.

[restive wing]

oh my god thank you that question was burning in my mind for hours.

[smoky rose]

You have to keep in mind that from the very beginning unveiling was a piece of propaganda. The truth of that propaganda is not established

[green obsidian]

Im still curious as to how much will both the traveler and veil have

and how much they just sort of exist

[real ingot]

Currently there isn't anything saying Unveiling is true/false

[smoky rose]

Like shit bro the entity that has manipulated the goddess of trickery and countless others into committing omnicide for goals beyond our understanding can lie? Shocking

[broken relic]

Its not narratively satisfying for a far more interesting character to just be a sockpuppet for some clown thats just "alien race gets left by the traveler #13234"

[real ingot]

Simplying the Witness like that is a bad idea

[smoky rose]

^

[real ingot]

As Savathun said

[broken relic]

I don't care if it was supposed to be a lie or not that lie was way more interesting

[real ingot]

The Witness desired more

they were gifted the light

yet took in the darkness

[devout nimbus]

What was unveiling about

[real ingot]

Simplified: Flower Game

But Unveiling isn't rendered uncanon by this cutscene

We can easily say it was a result of it

[devout nimbus]

Oh that

[real ingot]

Infact I'd say Unveiling is supported by the cutscene

[green obsidian]

Witness really like "If the traveler potentially causes chaos/ruin that's bad, but if we do it then thats good"

[real ingot]

seeing as how the Gardener is found

[dim minnow]

there is still a lot of evidence that Unveiling is true

[broken relic]

It's like if they revealed Darth Vader was just a robot commanded by a dude named evil joe who just likes to kill people

[dim minnow]

Dreams of Alpha Lupi, Vex, and Black Garden are all strong pieces of evidence that support it

[broken relic]

tbf those are pre-introduction of the witness so they could easily have retconned all of them in a fell swoop

[green obsidian]

If all the Witness needs to enact the final shape is linking the veil to the traveler and opening the portal, all the genocide along the way kinda just seems like unnecessary evil at the moment

[real ingot]

Yet there isn't anything retconning Unveiling

[broken relic]

Also such a ritual makes the final shape sound like some stupid macguffin instead of the beautiful simplicity of "Kill everyone until we're the only ones left"

[smoky rose]

Again in the context of the Witness having wrote unveiling (as seen by the alignment of terminology and actions), including the vex doesn’t mean much

[dim minnow]

how would the Witness know of the Dreams though

[smoky rose]

Well even though it doesn’t speak the traveler gives visions

Who’s to say the witness’ people didn’t get them too

[dim minnow]

Ahsa told us that the Traveler literally did not say a thing to them

[smoky rose]

Well it doesn’t say a thing to us either, it’s established that the traveler’s method of giving gifts includes visions

[dim minnow]

I think in the case with the Witness' species they didn't get those either

[green obsidian]

I still hope the Witness's motives get fleshed out a bit more

because "The traveler COULD cause a tsunami" is a bit dramatic to go the route they did

[smoky rose]

Then how did it bless them

[broken relic]

I hope he gets killed by a bunch of Vex in the first cutscene of final shape

[smoky rose]

The traveler doesn’t physically intervene, it’s not like it plopped out a starship drive and suddenly they could go to the stars

But it could give visions to them of how to make one

Which is how it’s established to do it in the golden age

[dim minnow]

blessed us via terraforming planets, blessed the Eliksni via Splicer stuff

[real ingot]

considering how dreams/visions are shown I'd say they aren't counted as speaking to them

[dim minnow]

I'd argue that the Witness learned of Unveiling through the Veil

maybe even when it first tried to link it with the Traveler

hmmm

veil
un-"veil"-ing

[real ingot]

oh that's the primary idea

[smoky rose]

Wait hang on

[broken relic]

Silly, there is no legend or mysticism behind the setting anymore it's just advanced aliens like every other sci fi setting now

[smoky rose]

@dim minnow you know what just occurred to me

[dim minnow]

I'm onto something aren't I

[real ingot]

yes

[dim minnow]

remember, the Veil is a sentient entity

[smoky rose]

The traveler entries are in order but also looking forward in time

[dim minnow]

what is this referring to?

the Grimoire cards?

[smoky rose]

Alpha lupi

[dim minnow]

ah yes

[smoky rose]

The knife entry is what the witness did to it

In lightfall

Which is why the traveler is “dead”

[dim minnow]

that would make the Veil the first knife though

[pliant widget]

hi sorry cant talk long but was invited by @real ingot and want everyone to know everything they say is said by a bozo and thus mid

[smoky rose]

Traveler 3 is the knife entry and happened AFTER Traveler 1 (arriving in Sol) and traveler 2 (deciding this would be where it made its stand)

[real ingot]

blocked

[smoky rose]

No that would be the witness

The million blades

All the people merged into it

It makes sense

[real ingot]

Witness fits it pretty well

[dim minnow]

although, Ghost Fragment: Traveler 3's description of what remains differs

[smoky rose]

What part of it

[dim minnow]

The knife stole much more than your body.```

[smoky rose]

I think that aligns perfectly with both what happened to the traveler and what it’s current state is

[dim minnow]

the way it sounds resonates a lot better with Unveiling than Lightfall in my opinion

[smoky rose]

On its own maybe

But in the context of traveler 1 and traveler 2

It’s lightfall 100%

And with the new background of the witness, the knife having a million blades also makes sense

[broken relic]

So what exactly is the state the Traveler is in then

[smoky rose]

This

[broken relic]

You're feeding your logic into itself do we have any recent accounts of its status

[smoky rose]

Zavala and Ikora saying it’s dead

Ghost saying he can’t feel it anymore

@dim minnow you know I think an elephant in the room we haven’t thought about is alternate timelines

[broken relic]

That barely fits the description at all

[smoky rose]

Ghost’s does

As does the traveler’s physical state

[broken relic]

What does he specifically say about it other than not feeling it

[woeful acorn]

the fuk goin on

[woeful acorn]

a lil sleepy but also kinda angry cuz he might have people inside of him

and the witness

etc

[broken relic]

The description sounds more along the lines of being reduced to perhaps a moon that is infinitely inferior to the embodiment of a cosmic force to me

[woeful acorn]

he also may not be sad he has people inside him but hey to each their own

[smoky rose]

That’s… literally what happened though

[woeful acorn]

boyoiyoiyoiyoing

[smoky rose]

It’s currently basically just a moon

[woeful acorn]

yeah he shleepy

[smoky rose]

Ikora says that ghosts are very clear they cannot feel the traveler’s presence anymore

[woeful acorn]

exactly

he shleepin he left his ghosts out

[broken relic]

Yet they still have the light?

[woeful acorn]

doesn't mean he stopped providing

he just shleepy

[smoky rose]

Now hang on I’m gonna throw some crazy shit out here @dim minnow what if Unveiling is the fruit of alternate timelines

[lament cape]

He’s taking a nap?

[smoky rose]

If Elsie isn’t the only one who resets

[real ingot]

How does it all come back to this

[smoky rose]

The traveler is a she first of all

[broken relic]

The focus is just as much about the Body as everything else

[woeful acorn]

what if the unveiling is something being born from the veil

[woeful acorn]

god is a woman type beat

[lament cape]

My fault

Didn’t mean to assume it’s gender😔

[smoky rose]

Nah you good

Most people just assume she’s a he

[green cobalt]

weird of most people to assume the big floating orb goes by anything other than "it"

[near hornet]

i just finished the weekly quest

oh my god

[trim grotto]

Without knowing otherwise, yeah. But humans like gendering things, I suppose. Like when Quria was, for some reason, almost universally referred to as "she" by the community.

[rich veldt]

quria isnt a she?

[versed orbit]

Quria was Vex bro

[wheat flower]

so the veil is the dr

darkness?

[rich veldt]

ik that smh

[trim grotto]

As null said
Quria was a Vex
They do not have gender that we recognise

[sick yew]

The Vex just are

[golden wolf]

can sparrows cross liquids like water normally in lore? curious if thats the case

[sick yew]

I think so?

[devout nimbus]

Probably

[sick yew]

Not sure if it ever came up but I dont see why not

[devout nimbus]

Seeing as they hover

[sick yew]

^

[golden wolf]

cool

does anyone have a screenshot of the text wall we got when we picked up the data from that secret bunker at the end of seraph?

[sick yew]

I might actually do at home

[golden wolf]

because iirc thats when rasputin called us his seraphs, wanted to have a copy of it

[sick yew]

Maybe try checking Esoterickk

He used to make videos of the whole weekly quest

[golden wolf]

is there a place where all of a characters voicelines/text walls were recorded? I imagine ishtar would have em?

[echo brook]

did they just hit us with the Shadowlands plot tho

Sylvanas and the Witness hoping to rewrite all of reality to remove chaos, death and suffering? =p

[trim grotto]

Destiny Lore Vault
YouTube channel

Meticulously categorised

[golden wolf]

"Use it well, my Seraph" seems to be all I can find... but it feels like the wrong bit
ah well

from the final dawn quest when you pick up the ship from rasputin

[trim grotto]

Interactions are also caught by Ishtar as they're in the API, but that can be harder to find

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/interactions/exo-frame-final-dawn

Try this

[golden wolf]

I did comb through by typing in "my seraph" into ishtar

hearing/seeing rasputin call us his seraph kinda made me keep that seal equipped since then

[sick yew]

"Uh fine, I guess you are my little pogchamp Seraph"

-Rasputin probably

[green cobalt]

sure but that's just human brain go "name ends with A therefore female"

"the traveler" doesn't really have that going on

[green cobalt]

i miss him greatly

[golden wolf]

same

[green cobalt]

his weaponry was too silly for our safety

[trim grotto]

That's true
Still, it's hard to put myself in those shoes, as I know too many feminine references to picture it otherwise

[golden wolf]

seraph subclass where the super is calling in an orbital strike :)

[green cobalt]

you call in one of those big frames from the final Seraph mission like that one overwatch character

[slim perch]

seraph subclass where you just win via overwhelming firepower

grenade? warsat
melee? im sure rasputin made excalibur somewhere
class ability? titan puts down siva barricade, hunter leaves behind lasers that cut enemies, warlock has laser turrets

[jolly vector]

titan super would just be you piloting a seraph mech

[golden wolf]

warlock super is calling in the warsat laser strike, titan super is callin in a big boi frame and hunter yeets a javelin

[ancient fox]

The marvelification of destiny

[sick yew]

"The Witness is right behind me arent they"
-Cayde-6 (Destiny 2 Final Shape 2024)

[torpid flint]

Someone has to remake that clip

[sick yew]

[torpid flint]

AI generated Rasputin voice saying we’re his seraph

[torpid flint]

AIR STRIKE CALLED IN, FIND COVER

-Some poor thrall

[golden wolf]

"That guardian pointed at me... nothing happened... and suddenly the sky is red... oh no"

I still find it interesting that sleeper simulant is a downscaled version of the warsats...

[torpid flint]

I like when you use a super just to fuck up a thrall or acolyte

[golden wolf]

max stack star eater gathering storm at a 1hp thrall moment

[jolly vector]

I mostly super sniper enemies

fuck them assholes

[warm cave]

We can all agree that Rhulk is a certified badass and a giga chad, right

[ember storm]

no

[slim perch]

no

arrogant genocidal maniac

[ember storm]

he’s really a pathetic loser

[warm cave]

Oh

Okay

[empty fern]

Feel free to keep liking him tho

[vocal osprey]

Nice fashion though
Still an arrogant sociopathic loser

[royal portal]

oryx really got put in a collar by a race that couldnt cope without the travelers A1 smack

the traveler is canonically weaker than a lot of people☝️💀

[royal portal]

I think hes more upset that its advanced alien propaganda and not cosmic horror propaganda instead of it being false

@broken relic you spittin rn

Rhulk and witness should have been the same species/equal power levels to curb the endless rise up the power scaling. It would still make sense to get lucky in killing an eldritch being whos too proud but set the next one on a horizontal instead of vertical power scaling. Witness should be the winnower and not hopefully be a character we ever meet. This opens the door after final shape to create literally any catastrophic and big environment for all the next ”insert darkness race” outside sol
or
witness should be a completely separate race from the witness we have now. keep the story and tech same but now you have a race that (like humans now) had both the traveler and veil in possession and went wild with experimentation on both artifacts. (means not making witness oryx’ dom)

good or dogshit concept?

[ancient fox]

https://twitter.com/YourNanSellsKet/status/1671527306475577347?t=6KZkhF-mSmCtPhd5vdyrow&s=19

Gary (@YourNanSellsKet)

Bungie narrative team when they gotta write the climax and they've been doing fan fiction lore tabs for the last decade

Likes

147

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 21, 2023, 2:35 PM

[analog torrent]

What I gathered from the cutscene: The Winnower doesn't exist/is a title/idea and the Witness wants to be the Winnower/wants to impose this purpose on the universe. The Veil is purely connected to Darkness and is the key to accessing Darkness or something. Yeah or nah?

[analog torrent]

I liked the zavaitl lore tab 🤬

[smoky rose]

That's what I got too but not everyone interprets it that way

[slim elk]

Veil=Winnower

[chrome fog]

I’d argue that the Vex still could have spilled into this universe at its inception - this revelation doesn’t change any of the origins of the Ahamkara or Worm Gods at present - and I theorize that the Gardener-Winnower Being separated itself in order to experience one of these flower games for itself.
There’s a hole in this theory however, and it’s some of the lore entries implying that they were forcibly separated when they were separated from the start. Unveiling and Inspiral’s take on what happened is a biased view from the Witness, so we can’t take it for face value, but some of the Alphi Lupi entries call the Witness a ‘false sister’ and say that the Winnower and Gardener were split from each other.

Maybe Unveiling and Inspiral were right and the Winnower separated the Gardener from itself? With them descending into the universe in their reduced forms playing the game according to the newly added rules and their newfound roles as beings within the game.

[lethal ridge]

is sloane still a guardian?

[chrome fog]

Yes

[ember storm]

she's going thru an asher arc

[chrome fog]

She’s just a bit Taken, but her Light and Ahsa are keeping it at bay

[lethal ridge]

where's her ghost?

[chrome fog]

Probably hidden away

Our ghost disappears sometimes as well, goes into a dimensional pocket they affectionately call “The Backpack”

I think, can’t remember where I read/heard that from

[lethal ridge]

true

[ember storm]

ghosts don't even know where they go

[lethal ridge]

so the witness can take things "on command"?

[ember storm]

our ghost just calls it our backpack

none of them know how it works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTWsT4ZkfuM&ab_channel=arkangelofkaos

[lethal ridge]

what's the nature of taken? for some time i thought it was a thing only oryxx could do with what he learned from the deep?

[chrome fog]

Yey got it right 🥳

[ember storm]

oryx was never the source

he just learned the trick of how to do it after making contact with "the deep"

something to mention that the power to take and actually making something Taken are different

what Oryx did was the same as what the Witness did to things like mars

[chrome fog]

It’s a power taught by the Witness - the Deep is one of the names they assume, Clarity is another; it’s nothing more than specialized teleporting, but to Take a being in the way we’re familiar with you teleport them straight to the Witness who then alters them into their Taken form, supposedly the perfectly offensive version of that being

[ember storm]

physically just took them and moved them

[lethal ridge]

i didnt know that last part

[ember storm]

it's the deep itself that actually makes them taken

[slim elk]

Course, now we are seeing being Taken can revive the dead

[ember storm]

people like oryx just send them over

[lethal ridge]

does that mean an ascended was taking sloane and stopped halfway?

[chrome fog]

Savathun Took the Traveler at the end of Witch Queen into her Throneworld, trying to keep her for herself

[chrome fog]

Sloane was on Titan when it and four other destinations were Taken in Arrivals

[lethal ridge]

but only the witness takes? any hive ascended can do it too?

[chrome fog]

Oryx learned it directly from the Witness and carved how to do so in the Tablets of Sorrow (I think), Savathun then learned it from him and it’s not impossible for Xivu to also have learned it; but in this particular instance, it was the Witness Taking the planetary destinations

[lethal ridge]

oh so when he was takin the planets and moons, he was also taking living things in them?

[outer dragon]

I would think it likely that Xivu was taught since she took Taniksgorath

[ember storm]

they had to use a piece of willbreaker

oryx's sword

xivu doesn't know

she's just been bumming off of the witness for a couple years

she has wrathborn anyway

[chrome fog]

I’m not particularly sure in this instance, but the process of transport requires a bit of Taking the items being teleported

[cunning frigate]

hi anyone know what door is the crota in ders of eltrente?

i know its not the midl one ^^

[fallow sky]

With the new cutscene and the confirmation that the unveiling lore book is an allegory, How were the vex created? were they born of the witness' attempt to merge the traveler and the veil?

[smoky rose]

Left

Left is Crota, middle is Cabal, right is Vex

[smoky rose]

Probably not

Its probable they were just something that happened and the Witness included them in the allegory

[limpid flower]

the vex are not creations of the witness

rn we don’t know what they are entirely

but the witness used the black garden and the black heart as a means of control over the sol devisive, or whomever inhabited the garden

[limpid flower]

crota is hive

[royal portal]

are the vex still not the flower game win condition?

[chrome fog]

We do know from Unveiling that they from the Garden before the Destiny universe was created as Alphi Lupi and other sources confirm, so that part is still true

[limpid flower]

ah ok

[ember storm]

the moment paracausal forces came into play, their ability to steamroll the game was disrupted

[chrome fog]

The Vex winning is a possible outcome of the Flower Game, but not necessarily a win condition. A win condition beneficial to us would be defeating the Witness and the Pyramid ships and then surviving til the heat death of the universe

[smoky rose]

But Alpha Lupi doesn't confirm it because Traveler 3, while it does read like Unveiling, is traveler 3, which is very convenient because Traveler 1 and 2 happen to be in our timeline

Not only that but Traveler 3 lines up quite well with what happened to the traveler at the end of lightfall

[royal portal]

ik the vex arent the win condition anymore. just making sure their creation is still the same

witness still sucks cocoa balls frfr

[smoky rose]

Their creation is "we don't know"

Now here's some food for thought.
Unveiling lines up with the Witness' terminology and actions
Alpha Lupi lines up with Unveiling and with what happened in Lightfall (and is chronologically consistent with lightfall)
Time loops/alternate timelines are confirmed to exist in Destiny with Elsie. If the Witness and/or the Traveler are also party to the time loop, then Unveiling becomes both extremely reasonable in its allegory and extremely consistent with reality

[royal portal]

how dont we know

[smoky rose]

Because Unveiling is a bunch of allegorical propaganda and things that may confirm it also appear to be predicting the events of lightfall, not what happened in the garden

[royal portal]

So is this a ”witness travels to the end of time and restarts” theory or something

[smoky rose]

No, every time the traveler explodes or something the timeline resets to a point, specifically when Cayde becomes hunter vanguard

Read the Dark Future lore book

[royal portal]

did

vex creation being allegorical sounds dumb

[smoky rose]

Now, if we take Unveiling to be allegory, then the flower game actually makes sense if you consider the alternate timelines/time loop thing going on.

I guarantee you there were plenty of timelines where the vex won

[royal portal]

did it not make sense at some point?

i thought the flower game theory was pretty straightforward. everything becomes vex. that was boring. gardener said ait bet

im condensing very hard cause lore been beating my ass for 4+ years

[smoky rose]

No that's pretty accurate

But at the same time, there's never been any confirmation of Unveiling

From the very beginning it was propaganda

And the actions of the narrator in Unveiling lined up perfectly with the Witness

[royal portal]

every day confirms why I think revealing the witness was a bad idea

they really just rolling an 8 ball for the next years lore

[smoky rose]

It's been 4 years since unveiling they've gotta reveal it at some point

Also they have the lore planned out already probably well into the next saga

[royal portal]

I dont think we should have ever seen it

maybe its effects and aftermath everywhere else, nothings as good as you imagine yourself anyway

[smoky rose]

There's far too many mysteries in destiny to have at the end

I think resolving what the bad guy is/wants and leaving questions about the Traveler/Veil is a better idea than resolving the traveler/veil but giving us no motivation to stop the bad guy

[royal portal]

there are, but resolving the most important one shouldn’t have a ”real” end condition. just living in the world itself should be it.

Making the bad guy who previously was hyped to be an ultra giga god character grounded as a bunch of people just feels lesser than it could have been. You can reach the climax without the entire area being grey. theres room for black and white.
And I dont think theres much question about the travelers motives. its aligned with the gardener, which wants ”life” as the most basic vague explanation

sure theres room for every kind of horrible chimeric torturous and flesh nightmare type of life aswell, but regardless of all that were now in a corner where regardless of any motive witness is bad and traveler is good

like xivus story though, and hope calus is still in the shroomworld

[ebon wharf]

Are the hive gods actual gods or are they just titles from the strength from the wyrm gods?

[royal portal]

very strong individuals with realitybending powers. Functionally gods to us, possibly actual worshipped god deities to the hive, like jesus to us

how would you react if jesus actually answered your prayers and gave you a floating halo over your head💀

thats the kind of writing I miss

[cedar torrent]

Hello I have some questions, first is the veil of darkness or another form of light, and if it is another form of light where did the Witness's species get the darkness from?

[limpid flower]

the veil is a harbor of the darkness

do the szn story quest line for this week and you’ll be updated by the cutscene

or just watch the witness origin cutscene on yt if u don’t own the season

[chrome fog]

It was never a win condition, they were just the winners every other time

[chrome fog]

It’s a paracausal artifact of Darkness, complimentary being to the Traveler. Supposedly the Witness species simply grasped the concept of the Darkness just as they had with the Light.

[quasi sleet]

question regarding the veil, In the cut scene, did it not state "the veil is an extension of the traveler" that when combined allows the traveler to bend reality?

[ember storm]

they’re effectively just like founders of scientology

[fiery copper]

what is a god really, except something supernatural and (usually) powerful that you believe in?

i'd say they are gods, yeah

basically every non judeo-christo religion has like

99.95% gods who aren't omnipotent

imo xivu could solo the greek pantheon

so power isn't an issue

and basically every culture has the concept of mortals ascending to godhood

after hercules died, he became a (minor) god of olympus

"oh but if you take away the worm they die"
old timey gods were the origin of superhero weaknesses, the OG "achilles heel" is literally because of a god (technically not following a god's instructions, but it is still divine in origin)

[chrome fog]

They did not, simply that it was a being like the Gardener/Traveler

[chrome fog]

They’re god by virtue of being worshipped and gaining power from that worship

[quasi sleet]

are you sure, I'll do some research

[chrome fog]

You can watch the cutscene again

[quasi sleet]

yeah im doin that now lol

"research"

[daring iris]

I think bungie originally intended year 6 to be the end of light and dark, so Lightfall and our current seasonal content is basically just filler to delay until final shape

might be a good thing tbh

but yeah in an ideal world this would all have been part of lightfall

[quasi sleet]

"gardener shared a connection with another entity among the stars", what kind of connection, telepathic, empathic, associates?

[daring iris]

maybe all of those

[quasi sleet]

[daring iris]

I feel like the traveler and the veil were best mates back in the day until the friend group split up

[limpid flower]

nah

the traveler wanted nothing to do with the veil

hence why he fled the witness’ civilization

[quasi sleet]

it wasn't the veil, it was what the group of witnesses was doing with the veil

[lavish bobcat]

I want lore accurate golden gun

[quasi sleet]

misuse of power was why it left

[open saffron]

Just finished the cutscene.. Mind blown

Were they the first to find the Traveler? I think the cutscene portrayed it as lying down in the ground of their planet

[limpid flower]

that’s a speculation of many

[open saffron]

Absolutely amazing, what a great explanation the cutscene did

Finally feel like some connections are being made

Well done

[quasi sleet]

it said they were the first victims

odd they used that word victims

[open saffron]

I am not quite understanding the turn of events, though

[limpid flower]

like what

[quasi sleet]

watch it again

[open saffron]

So they find Traveler/Gardener, as they call it

[limpid flower]

yea

[open saffron]

Raise up civilization, silent god, same old same old

[limpid flower]

yap

[open saffron]

But then

What goes wrong

[open saffron]

I do have to for sure

[limpid flower]

they view the future or soenthing

[open saffron]

MIghtve missed something

[limpid flower]

they wanted purpose essentially

to erase chaos from existence as a whole

which is what is meant when the witness is bringing forth the final shape

[quartz ledge]

we dont know exactly what the final shape is yet

[limpid flower]

the cutscene practically laid that out for us

[quartz ledge]

they just felt like they lacked purpose in general and started studying the veil

[quartz ledge]

not really

[limpid flower]

they viewed a future full of chaos and wanted to change that

[quartz ledge]

we know that the link between the traveler and veil creates the final shape by the cutscene

but nothing else about it

[quartz ledge]

there was nothing about a future in there, what made you think that?

they knew the light could bring chaos

[limpid flower]

not sure where else that’d be in my mind if not for the cutscene

[quartz ledge]

thats all thats mentioned about what following the light could do

[quartz ledge]

you can rewatch it

[limpid flower]

yea i will

[quartz ledge]

no mention of viewing a future

they just wanted purpose so they sought out the veil

after finding it they learned what the final shape is

and brought the veil to the traveler to create it

the traveler didnt want this, and so it ran

[slim elk]

Pretty much
The Witness species asked what the meaning of life was.. Gardener refused to answer
They eventually found the Veil (Winnower).. and it answered

Unveiling may be that answer in part. All of Destiny.. just a "flower game" between the two

[chrome fog]

She fled because they wanted to merge the two of them together, which she did not want

[chrome fog]

I would say that their use of ‘victim’ to describe themselves is due to their pessimistic nature; something along the lines of “If the Traveler never helped uplift us, we would never have to suffer with the dilemma of not knowing what purpose there is to living.”

[limpid flower]

she?

[slim elk]

Traveler has been referred to as "her" before. Most notably by Rasputin

As for Witness, get the feel that species broke when it learned that there was no grand purpose in the universe

No point to all the struggles endured

Thus... it's gonna make one

[limpid flower]

ah ok

[slim elk]

The "Final Shape"? Witness imposing it's order upon the entire universe

Can see the interesting contrast with Gardener and Winnower now
Gardener is free to act, but refuses to speak and explain itself
Winnower doesn't act at all, but freely explains anything asked of it..

[chrome fog]

Alphi Lupi and Unveiling give her feminine pronouns

[wheat flower]

Y'all think we're gonna see a manifestation of the traveler inside

[chrome fog]

No

I’d like to reiterate that the Witness/Witness species fell into the same philosophical pitfall most nihilists do, that being life has no meaning, and were distraught when their god figure refused to give them clear answers, which would’ve run counter to the Gardener and Winnower’s agreement of minimal interference with the game

In response, they decided to set the meaning of life for themselves

Forcibly

[wheat flower]

Just so I'm certain

The veil is the darkness then right?

[tulip knoll]

No not exactly, it’s a darkness artifact that is similar to the traveler

[chrome fog]

Darkness and Light are just forces of the universe, much like gravity, time, and many others

[tulip knoll]

For example the sun is a force of light

[chrome fog]

Not really

Light harnesses and allows us to mimic the processes occurring within the Sun, but the Sun itself is not Light

It does the same with Arc and Void, enacting the forces of electricity and potential energy (gravity and such) through parallel means

Hence, parallel causes to certain reactions, Para-causality

Instead of lighting a match through friction force and providing fuel for the resultant combustion, simply conjure the flame out of will

These are the new rules proposed by the Gardener in Unveiling, a lore book from Arrivals, when we first made contact with the Witness and the conflict escalated

[tulip knoll]

By that summary, you could potentially create a kinetic subclass parallel to seismic force