📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

The new place is still called the tower but it kinda isnt

[bold star]

why does shaxx have a horn missing

[devout nimbus]

The tower is just one of the taller bits of the wall

Of which there are many I thought?

[sick yew]

iirc Felwinter punched it out back in the dark age

[sick yew]

The new tower is just ontop of a hangar on the wall
Of which there probably are a lot

[devout nimbus]

Yeah true

[sick yew]

Zero hour showed that there are a lot of storage places inside the wall and lower tower

[devout nimbus]

Never played it

[sick yew]

So its safe to assume theres places similar to the new tower for storage purposes all over the wall

[devout nimbus]

Fair enough

[sick yew]

The new tower was probably just chosen as a temporariy hub post red war while the main tower is being repaired

Which as we can see they're still doing

Cranes and sparks can be seen all the time

[jolly vector]

there's alot of lore on it so we dunno the real story

in d1 he just said its a bit too heavy to talk about before fighting oryx

I think he broke it many times and just keep it after a while instead of repairing

reason why there's so many stories about it

[sick yew]

Really?

I could have sworn it was Felwinter

[jolly vector]

there's 1 with ikora beat him in a fight, 1 more with some cabal, then some lore on twilight gap battle

I read about another with some random fallen too

[slim perch]

does vault triangle have anything to do with witness triangle?

[sick yew]

The Witness triangle as in the portal on the traveler?

I doubt it

Or actually now that I think about it

the entrance to the infinite forrest was another triangle

Both gateways that were at first inaccessible to us but ended up leading to a completely different place

Plus we also saw Vex in the reveal trailer for Final Shape

Maybe youre onto something @slim perch

[slim perch]

[sick yew]

Guess we'll see

[slim perch]

isnt the vault basically dead?

[sick yew]

the vault of glass? yes

Has been for a long time

Since we walked in there and beat up Atheon

[jolly vector]

atheon was the only one working it so they will need to actually rebuild everything from scratch

and the vanguard is protecting the place so

[dim minnow]

they were also using the Black Garden's Heart to fuel their operation in the VoG

[patent swallow]

playing through d1 again and in the beginning you slay an archon, are those a thing anymore?

[dim minnow]

we haven't really seen one in a while

[patent swallow]

its like bungie forgot about them, I dont remember a mention of one after that part in vanilla d1

although i never played Rise of Iron or vanilla d2

[lyric bough]

Arent archons s*va related?

Idk didnt play roi

[chrome fog]

No, SIVA is human technology

Nano machines meant to assist with construction efforts for colonies

RoI is when a vault of the stuff and it’s generators was hijacked by the House of Devils, and is also the same vault that Rasputin killed the remaining Iron Lords with SIVA in

The reason they were in that vault to begin with was Felwinter discovering SIVA and wanting to recover it to help out with naming life easier for the remnants of humanity they were protecting

Actually I misread the question my b

[chrome fog]

Archons are just Eliksni that got super juiced on Ether. Basically they’re overweight, but that translates to being super roided out instead of debilitating health issues

[pine lion]

Is blight part of the Darkness?

What exactly is blight

[trim grotto]

Taken Blight! A form of Darkness, yes, energy related to and produced by the Taken.

[empty fern]

It infect the edz water for a short while

[viscid bison]

Hold up does saint have a kid. Bungie just said happy father's day to saint

He can't really have a kid though. . .

I'm mad confused

He's an exo and gay

And if they adopted I thought that would be mentioned lol

[trim grotto]

He does not.

[viscid bison]

Ummmmm

I guess Bungie doesn't understand there own games lore

[trim grotto]

What exactly did they say?

[viscid bison]

Well than

Happy Father's Day to Misraaks, Saint-14, and the other father figures of the Destiny universe!

[trim grotto]

Hm. Not certain, then. But no, he doesn't have an actual child.

[foggy fiber]

Father figures

Not a literal father

[slim mulch]

father figure =/= an actual dad

[viscid bison]

Odd but alright

[slim mulch]

you can be a father figure to someone without being family

[viscid bison]

Thanks for answering was kind a stupid question. Just making sure I didn't miss something major

[trim grotto]

Sure, but he isn't really that to anyone. Eido has her actual dad and Saint doesn't speak to her that often.

So I have no idea who it'd be about

[viscid bison]

Yea he doesn't mentir

[slim mulch]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[viscid bison]

That's osrisis job

[slim mulch]

odd they didnt say zavala ngl

[trim grotto]

Maybe they meant the Speaker. He was a father figure to Saint-14.

[viscid bison]

Who knows

Very strange

Yea zavvalla would have been way better smug

[slim mulch]

its not like his kid/his mentorship of amanda was hidden either so idk

they prob just forgot

but no real point in makin a big deal out of it

message still gets across

[trim grotto]

(Plus his actual adopted son)

[slim mulch]

ye

[trim grotto]

Poor Vuvuzela

[slim mulch]

zavala really is one of the saddest peeps we constantly see huh
least i imagine he can be seen as that

[outer dragon]

If bungoi brings back Amanda as a Lightbearer they deserve no respect

[trim grotto]

Honestly yeah

[trim grotto]

Really? It's kind of the point of Ghosts though

I'm kinda curious about the idea

[outer dragon]

It would devalue her sacrafice

[trim grotto]

Well, yes and no. Amanda would still have died. The Lightbearer would be a different person.
Plus, you know what the Speaker said

Bravery... leads to sacrifice. Sacrifice... leads to death.

[slim mulch]

if we see crow/uldren as 2 peeps, then idk why we would treat amanda/her lightbearer form as the same peep
thats one of the things for the whole resurrection thing that didnt make sense to me

[heady mantle]

Are there any guardians other than ourselves that are Behemoths/Shadebinders/Revenants?

[tawdry mauve]

Yes

[slim mulch]

yeah

[trim grotto]

Plenty, yes. Stasis isn't banned by the Vanguard any longer and Guardians were using it before they unbanned it anyway

[slim mulch]

im assuming ourselves = young wolf

[tawdry mauve]

Just ask shayura

[trim grotto]

Or her good friend Aisha

[tawdry mauve]

Or reed

[heady mantle]

Any named guardians?

[slim mulch]

...

[trim grotto]

...Aisha

Or Cogburn

Or plenty of others

[tawdry mauve]

Drifter

Technically

He uses stasis

Altough not guardians both eris and elsie as well

[slim mulch]

point is, you'll see plenty of guardians besides young wolf using stasis

[heady mantle]

Oki ty

Strand is only Young Wolf tho right?

[tawdry mauve]

And osiris i think

But so far yah

[trim grotto]

No

Numerous Guardians have it already, as does Osiris and even Ikora

[slim mulch]

that was fast

[heady mantle]

Ok ty #📚lore-discussion

[slim mulch]

how long after the events of lightfall did it take i wonder lol

[trim grotto]

It is I
Mr. Lore Discussion

[trim grotto]

Not long, going by the entry releases.

[slim mulch]

huh

[heady mantle]

I would get into lore but the rabbit hole is too deep and narrow to fall into it in the first place

[slim mulch]

you could always just focus on 1 topic

you dont need to know the whole lore
or really care about the whole thing

[heady mantle]

Yeah but you know how it goes

"Oh why does this happen"

"Oh fuck it's a whole other topic"

[slim mulch]

i only really care about the iron lords and thats gotten me satisified

yeah fair

[trim grotto]

Give me more Radagast lore

[slim mulch]

just give me lore on any iron lord :(
or at least tell me if efrideets alive or not lol

[smoky rose]

To the best of our knowledge she is

She was alive and going back to whatever hole she lives in at the end of the red war

[slim mulch]

yeah, but its been quite a while since the red war

i imagine quite a lot couldve happened to her with the arrival of the pyramids and her being in a pacifist colony somewhere in sol

least, i imagine theyre in sol

[heavy vortex]

Don’t mind me, fixing some pins.

More lore resources:

Lightfall CE book transcript:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19WPJUsdOioB64g_bQciQ6zaUn3EDStZXKWBxkn1-dW4/edit?usp=sharing

Witch queen CE book transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit

Beyond Light’s logbook transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit

Explaining the nature of Arc, Solar and Void: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/k4k6ox/light_is_not_the_fundamental_forces made by LettuceDifferent

An updated analysis of Stasis: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/tb1svc/an_updated_analysis_of_stasis made by VintageNuke

How to kill a Guardian 101:
<#📚lore-discussion message> made by dovadah

[slim mulch]

that tldr on solar/arc/void doesnt work

[heavy vortex]

Thanks for letting me know.

[slim mulch]

np

[fiery copper]

Happy fathers day to my wonderful husband 😍

[slim mulch]

your husband is an ass
i had to say it sorry

[fiery copper]

How dare you

He only liquefied like

[slim mulch]

am i wrong

[fiery copper]

A dozen people

[slim mulch]

he nuked an entire fuckin survivor ship

[fiery copper]

We all make mistakes

They probably deserved it tho

[slim mulch]

bro doesnt see that as a mistake

[fiery copper]

Yeah so they deserved it

[slim mulch]

sure

anyway, saladin being clowned on by his ghost is great

she's just like
"nah fam, you can do this"

[fresh zephyr]

Was there a cutscene of sagira dying?

[slim mulch]

not afaik

[chrome fog]

Maybe Crow. Maybe the Colonel and the hangar pigeons

[brittle mortar]

Question: do Ghosts only pick dead people and resurrect them to be guardians?

[chrome fog]

Yes, only corpses can be resurrected

Seeing as to “bring life back to something”, it needs to have lost it in the first place

[brittle mortar]

Interestinggg

Wait so everyone were dead?? Does the game tell you how they became guardians?

Like, their background

Or whats the criteria behind the ghosts to pick someone

[chrome fog]

You become a guardian by getting resurrected by a Ghost

Technically, you become a Risen, Guardians are Risen who enlist in the Vanguard and help defend the Last City

[brittle mortar]

And do they have a criteria? Or they are just like: oh, you look good, get up

[fiery copper]

Ghosts feel a specific call towards one person in particular, but are implied to be able to rez literally anyone. They will just know deep down that it's not the right person.

I had a girlfriend in high school. I PROMISE THIS IS RELEVANT

We started dating because all of our friends wouldn't shut up about us liking each other and so we just caved. We didn't actually like each other in that way, and it didn't last.

I see ghost rezzes as working similarly. You can ask out anyone, but it's better to date someone who you feel like you click with.

[chrome fog]

As Starcalled said, they can choose anyone but they have a pull towards a specific ‘spark’.

It’s been deliberated before if there are any real criteria for who or what can be ressurected and whether it is their ‘partner’ that they are pulled to or anyone

[fiery copper]

imo just the fact that Glint, a Ghost, was scared of FotL stories about Ghosts being "forced" to ressurect Headless Ones is enough for me. Glint only found crow like 4 years ago, he's been looking for CENTURIES. If anyone knows how Sparks work, it would be him.

[chrome fog]

Eh

All the ghosts that rezzed the Hive had been searching the same amount of time

There was only one time Ghosts were created and that was during the Collapse

So

They’ve all been waiting a long time

[fiery copper]

Fynch says that Ken was his Chosen

[chrome fog]

Many of the Hive Ghosts were convinced of that by Savathun and Immaru, whether through bullying or some other form of trickery

Or there could be some that genuinely were their chosen

Could be a mixed bag of all of the above

Again, they’d been waiting centuries to find their chosen, maybe they were desperate enough to choose a Hive

Maybe the Traveler simply allowed it to happen because she wasn’t able to gift them anything before Savathun made that deal with the Worm Gods

[brittle mortar]

Do risen/guardians get older? Or they keep the same appearence as when they died

[chrome fog]

They do not seem to age

As for their appearance, we do not know what sets it; we have a Guardian that’s a resurrected mummy from ancient Egypt

[chrome fog]

No it is not Osiris, it is another guardian mentioned in passing in some entry

[lyric bough]

Isnt there a caveman guardian too

[old herald]

That begs a question actually; how long ago can someone have died and still be resurrected by a ghost? And further, how long can a guardian be dead and still revivable

[slim mulch]

Well

I think the oldest we know of is from 13,000 years ago

With Sen-Aret

You can see the letter wrote to ikora by them in the WQ collectors edition transcript

[pine lion]

Who is the oldest Guardian we know rn

And how old is that characters

[chrome fog]

Drifter and Saladin; Drifter we know has been around since basically the start of the Dark Ages, and his dialogue with Saladin during this season’s story missions confirm Saladin has been around for about as long

As for who’s body is literally the oldest, Sen-Aret, the aforementioned ancient Egyptian that got rezzed

That’s about as far back as Guardian bodies go, though you can argue Savathun would be older since the events on Fundament that would lead to the creation of the Hive as we know them today predate humanity in general

[fresh zephyr]

wait, ancient Egyptians have been rezzed?

[deep pecan]

early footage of ahsa? (season of arrival)

[ember storm]

i mean yeah

all ghosts have ever needed were semi-intact corpses for an initial rez

[chrome fog]

Yes, Ahsa is the creature we saw in Titan’s methane sea since Red War

We’ve long since theorized what the creature could be, saw a differently shaped silhouette through port holes of the Arcology in the Lost Sectors

And now we know who it is

[elder lotus]

question regarding the mother worm god, why did she grew so much compared to the other worms?

[chrome fog]

Because she is the Mother Worm

And all other worms are pieces of her cut off from her being

Much like some real life worms

[elder lotus]

wait so all the worm gods are just fragment of her?

[chrome fog]

Not really fragments, but yes they were created from her supposedly

[elder lotus]

and when doing the GotD dungeon we can see Ahsa but is she smaller than the mother worm even tho she is a leviathan?

[elder lotus]

ahhh that is cool, didn’t know that so thank u

[chrome fog]

Vow probably has more details on it if you’d like to research more

[elder lotus]

all lore I have learn are from this chat and this one youtuber “my name is byf”

[fiery copper]

Ah, byf

Great lore

Shame about the mass murder charges

[elder lotus]

the what!?

[fiery copper]

Hes deleting his discord

[elder lotus]

rip

[fiery copper]

If I had a nickel for every time someone nuked a server I'm invested in because they got bored of running it and just decided not to hand it off to someone else instead, I'd have at least enough for an arizona iced tea

[pine lion]

What was humanities first Enemy?

Which faction rose first against us?

Taken?

Fallen?

Scorn?

Vex?

Cabal?

Hive?

Ourselves?

[ember storm]

i mean

yeah

historically the first faction to fight humanity is

humanity

that's sort of a given

[pine lion]

Is there rogue Guardians?

Like guardians who fully embrace the darkness

[ember storm]

they're not guardians

[pine lion]

And hunt the lightbearing guardians

[ember storm]

and no they're not running around

they don't exist

[fiery copper]

Hive iirc, they were around before the collapse and even had moon colonies before we did

[pine lion]

Iirc?

[ember storm]

if i remember correctly

[fiery copper]

Yea

[ember storm]

also i'm pretty sure it would be vex

[fiery copper]

that's iirc tbh, ok?

Hm

Yeah vex were around early too

[pine lion]

I wonder who the first Guardian was

[fiery copper]

Us

100%

[ember storm]

fuck no

[fiery copper]

[pine lion]

Bro we are like. The Last guardian to get rezzed

[ember storm]

the fact of the matter is "first guardian" is literally irrelevant

[ember storm]

no we aren't

it's been like 8 years

new guardians pop up all the time

[chrome fog]

Shadows of Yor are the closest you’ll get, even then we broke up that group with Shin Malphur and Drifter

[chrome fog]

Ourselves because human history still happened

[ember storm]

those were just a bunch of emos who stanned a sociopath

[pine lion]

Oh yeahhhh

[chrome fog]

Considering Crow exists, the Lightbearing Hive exist, and Savathun exists, no the fuck we aren’t

[ember storm]

don't forget the second randy

[chrome fog]

If you want to know which alien species we got into conflict with first, the Vex, as they were vital to the creation of Exos

Also Ishtar Collective founded their research on Vex simulations of their founders

[pine lion]

The birthplace is ofcourse the Deepstone crypt right?

Of exos

[ember storm]

that's a strong word

also not really the best description

[elder lotus]

So we were able to create exos using vex tech?

[pine lion]

Ayo Mysterious Exo lied to me

[ember storm]

it's just the main facility responsibile for exo construction

[chrome fog]

That’s just where the mindscans of everyone that became an Exo are stored

[ember storm]

we use vex milk as housing units for the human conciousness

[pine lion]

Bro She lied to me

[ember storm]

it's the only way vex work

[chrome fog]

The entire Europa facility is the birthplace of the Exo

[chrome fog]

Who the hell is that

[ember storm]

no bungie just regularly dumbs down npc dialogue for people to understand

[chrome fog]

Oh wait I get who it is

[ember storm]

the DSC isn't even one specific building

it's also got nothing to do with a crypt

[chrome fog]

Also yes, this is - siiiigggghhh

[chrome fog]

This is why dialogue is the way it is

[elder lotus]

So what Elizabeth tells us on Europa is bs?

[ember storm]

the problem is people misunderstanding even that part

[ember storm]

that's

that's not what dumbing down means

[chrome fog]

Yeaaaaaaaay

[elder lotus]

oh my dumbass didn’t read the dumbing down part

[ember storm]

that's literally the entire message

what part did you read

[elder lotus]

😭😭

the she lied to u

[chrome fog]

Anyways

[pine lion]

Ayo so did the traveler basically shit out ghosts?

[fiery copper]

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/starro-the-suicide-squad-suicide-squad-spores-gif-24191078

[chrome fog]

Not the wording I would use, but… I guess

[pine lion]

Basically this

[fiery copper]

It's more like chipping stuff off with a chisel

[chrome fog]

Only time Ghosts we’re created was at the Collapse

[chrome fog]

Not really

They were just… created

[ember storm]

the gif is accurate

[chrome fog]

Not even the Ghosts are sure what the process is

[pine lion]

A Speechless God.

[fiery copper]

I mean

Traveler was in one piece
Traveler no longer in one piece
Ghosts are now a thing

[chrome fog]

Yeah cause she trusts us to not fuck things up

[chrome fog]

That’s not
No

Any pieces of the Traveler that fell off were shed because they had been corrupted

[pine lion]

Theres still a giant ass piece of the Treveler in the EDZ

[elder lotus]

btw I have very little information about the garden and the game they played other than vex is supposedly the original winner, so is the traveler the creator on the garden game? While the witness is the other one playing the game?

[chrome fog]

Because she spent a lot of energy pushing back the Pyramids and forces of the Witness away

[chrome fog]

And what did I just say that does not change because of this

[real ingot]

Unveiling

Start reading

[chrome fog]

Gardener became the Traveler (and maybe the Veil); Winnower may or may not be the same as the Witness

Also yes read Unveiling

I’m going to write up a summary some time soon because I know it can be a confusing read for some people, but that explains a lot

[pine lion]

Gotta go finish the Deathbringer Exotic Quest

[elder lotus]

alright ima look it up to read it when I get home

[ember storm]

i hate that one

it has toland dialogue

automatic 0/10 quest

[chrome fog]

Toland a nerd-ass bitch

[pine lion]

Do u know where I can find and buy Physical copies of the lore books?

[ember storm]

why does it have to be physical

[chrome fog]

Bungie’s store; if not then eBay or Amazon, if not any other third party seller

[pine lion]

Because it would be cool to have a hard cover of the books

I mean that Cover art is beautiful

[chrome fog]

We should also have some scans/transcripts of the Grimoire collections and Collector’s Edition books

[ember storm]

yeah so like

that's not how they do things

[ember storm]

bungie isn't making a physical product for each individual lore book

those things are like 10 pages long max

[pine lion]

Why wouldn’t they wanna

[ember storm]

cause it's a horrible fucking idea?

[pine lion]

The thing is about collecting

[chrome fog]

Some of these resources we’re working on restoring - the user who’s google drive was holding the scans has privated most of them

[pine lion]

Silly goose

[ember storm]

this isn't a pokemon card

[pine lion]

It is

[chrome fog]

They make collections of lore in hardcover books

Usually with a theme

Again, look at Bungie’s store page

[potent bridge]

lore wise what is a threadling?

[elder lotus]

btw when I was on rhulk’s pyramid doing a witch queen quest I saw a room where it was full of columns one would interact but didn’t do anything, most of those symbols looked like they were trying to say sum but my dumbass couldn’t understand most of it, is there a lore book explaining what that room was?

[chrome fog]

Each lore book in-game is 10 or less pages long, it would be a rip off to buy multiple books

[ember storm]

lore wise it's just a thing you make with strand

i doubt they've ever even been referenced

there's nothing special or unique to it

you just make a homing thing with strand and it goes

[chrome fog]

Lil created creature, like an Arc Soul or Child of the Void thing

[ember storm]

light subclasses do it too, nothing special

[pine lion]

Warlocks make it

For strand

Like they create little skitttering bugs

[potent bridge]

hmmm, ok then

[chrome fog]

No shit, so can Titans and Hunters

[pine lion]

No shit buddy Im referring to a certain prt of strand

[chrome fog]

They’re asking what they are

[pine lion]

Theres these little skittering strand bugs on the ground

[chrome fog]

[pine lion]

Im guessing thats what a threadling is

[ember storm]

yeah

those aren't specific to warlocks

[chrome fog]

It’s
They tell you in the game

You get Strand and tell you what that you can create threadlings

[ember storm]

there's like 4 fragments revolving around threadlings

[chrome fog]

That is a specific keyword in the Strand arsenal

[ember storm]

it'd be pretty useless if only warlocks could make them

[fiery copper]

To be fair

There's like

3 sources

Wait no 4

And 2 of them are on warlock

There's the rift army, Wanderer spawns two, the grenade, and I THINK the hunter decoy makes a few when it explodes

I'm counting the warlock aspect where you can eat your threadling grenade as part of the grenade itself, because like, it is

[pine lion]

Idk whats with Warlocks and eating their fuckin grenade

[fiery copper]

Tastey

[pine lion]

Fr

[fiery copper]

Strand tastes like green apple

[pine lion]

Void tastes like grape

[fiery copper]

Except we aren't allowed to eat those anymore :(

Something about antimatter being a health risk

[pine lion]

Thats an oof. Some cant eat the void anymore cuz some idiot decided to stuff a black hole in their mouth

And they got their entire soul transported to eternity

[fiery copper]

[pine lion]

[chrome fog]

In any case

It was clear they were asking what threadlings are as in what kind of beings they are, since we know what physically are threadlings because they are a prominent part of the Strand subclass

[fiery copper]

Oh in that case

Man I got no clue

Theyre the strand variant of the Elemental Little Guy

Arc Soul, Child of the Old Gods, Warlock exotic glaive healing turret, Stacy, and now Threadlings

[chrome fog]

[outer dragon]

So canonically, Guardians can switch between different elements when using the Light. Do we have any video examples other than Osiris in that one cutscene?

[chrome fog]

No

[ember storm]

Ikora using chaos reach in WQ

[chrome fog]

We have mentions, but no video evidence really

[ember storm]

Zavala using striker in his origin trailer and defender in red war

[chrome fog]

Oh, this one

[ember storm]

Drifter used stasis and solar if you count that

[fiery copper]

Also shaxx being a Striker most of the time but using Ward while Felwinter was crashing at his place

And zavala used Fists of Havoc at the beginning of Worthy

[ember storm]

they're asking specificially things in videos, i'm assuming

[fiery copper]

@rose mauve hello Mr. Different, I have a friend who is making a video series about various video games' methods of committing war crimes, and one of his topics is Solar Light. He wants to know if he can quote your "light is not the fundamental forces" post in the video. He says he'd shout you out in the video, abd link your post in the description.

[ember storm]

what

[real ingot]

what

[chrome fog]

Intriguing

[ember storm]

i mean

Osiris explicitly mentioned nuclear force

so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UKeMo3UerU&ab_channel=SILENTSIX

[chrome fog]

Ah nice, been meaning to look for a video of this

[real ingot]

And that's why I stopped theorising about a Nuclear Energy subclass

[chrome fog]

I accidentally did all of them and it won’t reprompt me for the dialogue

[chrome fog]

That’s essentially Solar or Arc

[real ingot]

I can dream

[chrome fog]

Oh it’s nice Osiris quotes Ikora’s research

[vagrant bridge]

Just a B-83 nuclear bomb

But on a stick

[chrome fog]

There’s theories for the third Darkness subclass being Chaos related or smth, an atomic chain reaction is essentially an overloading amount of atomic chaos occurring all at once

High entropy in a volatile reaction

[vagrant bridge]

I kinda assumed it was gonna have something to do with nightmares

[chrome fog]

Bungie went out of their way to make Strand not poison-based because of a need to make new and unique elements for the subclasses

[vagrant bridge]

True

[outer dragon]

I would argue Arc is

[chrome fog]

That’s true, as Arc seems more connected to the inter-molecular forces that connect atoms together, which is also related to atomic fusion/fission

Interestingly, Arc and Strand both being connected to aspects of the electromagnetic spectrum gives them a further parallel aside from their elements’ focus on connectivity

[peak coral]

nuke class

all 3 abilities are considered a free self revive

but you explode yourself upon using an ability and die

parasite x20ish damage

[lyric bough]

I know fenchurch is an agent of the hidden
Is he still alive? What has he done? Whats the lore on him

[chrome fog]

Purportedly he has gone on top of the Traveler and noted “it smelled like vanilla”, otherwise he’s given us information during the Avalon quest line (I think) and has otherwise done other Hidden Agent things

[heady gyro]

Can someone remind me of the quote about the thing that goes like "city surrounded by a circle of spears"

[outer dragon]

He went IN the Traveler

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/traveler-mask

[outer dragon]

Though I went back and listened to Osiris talking about the elemental types and Solar is apparently controling the power of the Sun. Stars use nuclear fission so Solar is harnessing fisson at it's basic level

[deft flume]

https://youtu.be/I3_M_c5D8mQ

Actually. Here's all of em

https://youtu.be/3UKeMo3UerU

[chrome fog]

Unveiling, the Wager

[trim grotto]

A few things here and there, other than helping Tess stock Eververse. Most recently he was in the Hidden Fireteam that secured Oryx's remains after our incursion during Ghosts in the Deep.

[torpid flint]

Why do I feel it’s gonna be the exact opposite?

Like most of the theories regarding subclasses have been good hits or missed so bad it went into the sun

[trim grotto]

The opposite would be Stasis
Order, control, removal of energy

That being said I don't expect that theory to occurr
Darkness is about, among other things, simplicity
Stasis as an example, it's anti-entropy

[dim minnow]

seeing as how there is a growing separation between Light/Dark and Gardener/Winnower, would it be better to apply the themes of reduction and simplicity to the Winnower or Witness instead of the Darkness itself?

or specifically, Paracausal Light and Dark

[trim grotto]

That's reasonable, yes

[dim minnow]

since paracausal Light stuff refers to the Traveler/Gardener and paracausal Dark stuff refers to the Witness

[trim grotto]

Nonetheless it is more commonly the realm of the Light and its elements to produce that style of chaos

[chrome fog]

Or at least used to prior to our obtainment of Darkness for our own use

[dim minnow]

Stasis was sourced from the Witness

and Strand is sort of a product of the Veil (though it already appeared everywhere)

Veil is confirmed to be Paracausal

[chrome fog]

Strand could be simplification in that you just gotta vibe correctly in order to use it properly, but otherwise Darkness has somewhat demonstrated to be as complex as any use of Light

[dim minnow]

Witness probably is Paracausal as well

[trim grotto]

But it also doesn't actively add complexity into the system

The Weave exists, but is a standalone, hidden force

[dim minnow]

I wonder if Splicer tech is Paracausal

I figure that it provides one with the ability to manipulate technology through Light

the Eliksni claim it uses Light after all

[chrome fog]

Maybe during their Golden Age, the Traveler literally blessed them with paracausal technology in the form of Splicer tech? It would also fit to how they revere the Traveler as the Machine God

[trim grotto]

Sacred Splicing is considered to be a lost art from Riis

So perhaps

[chrome fog]

Or at least gave them the knowledge to harness Paracausality with technology via Splicer tech

[dim minnow]

Bugnie is realy making this whole philosophy stuff more confusing

[chrome fog]

I like to think the Witness is a false prophet preaching Darkness is simply reductive in nature

[dim minnow]

before Lightfall, it was much more clear, but then you have the true nature of Light and Dark given to us

I'm thinking that Bungie is really hammering down how much this whole idealogical conflict doesn't even matter

[chrome fog]

Which fits how it’s actively antagonistic against the Gardener’s belief of complexity. The sequence of events could be 1) Paracausality is proposed to explore alternative methods of manipulating reality, both physical and metaphysical, gifts for the struggling mortals that keep losing to the Vex; 2) Witness bears ‘witness’ to how multiple existences have come and gone for their game for the Gardener and Winnower, viewing it as unjustly putting all this life against each other for these beings’ entertainment; 3) seizes the power of the First Knife by some method and reduces the Gardener (potentially separates her from the Winnower with some implication of them being a merged being) and is now actively trying to kill it and end all reality so that this game can no longer be played

This is a very complicated way of saying: Darkness was probably meant to be part of the gift the Traveler/Gardener would’ve given, but it has been perverted by the Witness for its own purposes

And this perversion of what the Darkness is works in its favor as it drives away anyone else from using it unless if it’s in service to the Witness’ goal

Witness gets to spite the Gardener by making part of her gift seem evil plus gets free recruitment advertisement from maladjusted members of alien species seeking power for themselves

That only leaves the question of why the Traveler - whom we know is the Gardener - only gives gifts of Light if Darkness is part of the rules of Paracausality it originally proposed

[dim minnow]

maybe the Veil was the one who gave Dark gifts

a lot of implication is that it is a Darkness Traveler

after all, it already (sort of) gave us Strand

[smoky rose]

But is it even the Gardener

Does the Gardener exist

Is unveiling real

[dim minnow]

the Vex exist and so do the Dreams of Alpha Lupi

[smoky rose]

Like I think a lot of our POV on the whole thing has been tainted by taking Unveiling as the 100% pre universe story

[chrome fog]

And then that might tie into the implication that the Winnower and Gardener might’ve been one and the same, simply two aspects talking to each other (which is inferred from Bau’s citations, which went along the lines of the two of them being sisters split apart as well as how both overlap into each other’s job); the Veil could be the Winnower and technically the Gardener

[chrome fog]

See that’s the thing, we get Unveiling from the Witness, who paints the two as separate beings, but what if that’s a misdirection?

[dim minnow]

just remember, I was probably the first guy here who suggested that the Veil is the Winnower

we also need to account for Dreams of Alpha Lupi

the Dreams align pretty well with Unveiling

and again, the Vex exist

Black Garden as well

[smoky rose]

That's in the context of Unveiling predicting anything

[chrome fog]

I believe that’s where Bau’s citations of the two being one being and the Witness being a ‘false sister’ come from as well

[smoky rose]

If Unveiling wasn't real the Witness had a few billion years to write up the origin story

So not unreasonable for it to include the vex

[dim minnow]

I still think that there is already considerable evidence supporting that at least the Garden and Gardener existed

oh also

[smoky rose]

Also note that the Black Garden is (nearly) entirely a vex construct with plants on it

[dim minnow]

you know what Vex Milk becomes when exposed to Clarity (which is an effect that reduces something)?

[chrome fog]

This works super well; Unveiling paints the Winnower as fatalistic and seeking the strongest to survive, while the Gardener is an optimist that wants a result that never comes, neither of which is great, but we automatically empathize with the Gardener because Unveiling attributes the Traveler’s actions to the Gardener and the Traveler’s only been good to us

[dim minnow]

Vex Milk becomes in of itself, a reductive pattern which lines up with their origins in Unveiling

[smoky rose]

But Clarity is of the Witness

[dim minnow]

but the Vex get reduced into a reductive pattern

which is what they evolved from

according t Unveiling

[chrome fog]

I believe the Witness is baiting with us a biased view of the time before the Destiny universe, sharing enough of the truth that it seems believable but painting it so that it looks like we are the product of at best neglectful at worst spiteful creator beings

[smoky rose]

According to Brass Gardeners the Witness is also who made them like that initially

[dim minnow]

Brass Gardeners?

[smoky rose]

The Inspiral lore tab

[dim minnow]

I was thinking that

[chrome fog]

There’s something about the flowers seizing the First Knife for themselves, is there not?

[dim minnow]

but what of the Veiled Lady statue in the ToSW stump?

[smoky rose]

Well the Witness popped by to drop off the Black Heart at some point

And to drop off Divinity

[dim minnow]

that must be related to how the Witness strted taking control over the Sol Divisive

Divinity seems to be a Vex construct

[smoky rose]

Well visually yes

[dim minnow]

this is reminding me of a thought I had about Season of Undying

1. Witness gave Darkness powers to Kentarch 3
2. Later it decides to remove Lisbon's memory of the incident and remove his ghost's ability to speak
3. After Shadowkeep campaign, an artifact from the Pyramid (the same one to give us Unveiling), leads us to the Black Garden where we end up inside of the Stump of Silver Wings
4. We find a Veiled Lady statue in there (keep in mind this was the same route the Kentarch 3 took)
5. Sol Divisive got pissed off and started invading the Moon

like, what was that all about?

were the Sol Divisive invading the Moon at the Witness' command?
or were they actign out on their own

[trim grotto]

And apparently made people forget Lisbon's designation too

[dim minnow]

the end of the Deterministic Chaos quest seems to prove that the Sol Divisive can act outside of the WItness' wishes

[odd flicker]

Well they're not a submind created by the Witness and more one that simply decided worshipping the Darkness was the schmove, no?

[chrome fog]

At the very least they’ve been manipulated by the Witness, but otherwise are fully autonomous and focused on gathering Paracausality in the form of Darkness in order to further their plans of total assimilation of reality, with these efforts culminating in the various experiments we keep crashing

[odd flicker]

I thought the pinnacle of their work was the Sanctified Mind? Everything after that hasn't really been that threatening.

[heady gyro]

Can someone remind me of the quote about the thing that goes like "city surrounded by a circle of spears"

[dim minnow]

the Wager yes

"Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."

@heady gyro

this quote essentially describes why the Traveler created Ghosts

funny enough, Toland was the ony other person to describe a Gentle City Ringed with Spears before this

[chrome fog]

They also made the Vault of Glass and a couple other things

[odd flicker]

Vault is Hezen Corrective I thought.

[chrome fog]

Anything fucky that the Vex are up to? Usually backed by Sol Divisive

[dim minnow]

But I do not think those spears will hold against the queen of the country of armies. And that is all that will matter in the end.```
here's this other one too

from Toland

[chrome fog]

I think they were able to create that portion of the Vex Network with the Darkness they got from the Black Heart, though I only read it from someone else

Do you know about this Dova?

[dim minnow]

I know that the VoG Vex used the Black Garden in some way

there is somethign I really want to say, but I will have to wait

[chrome fog]

I wonder if Mars would be willing to give their expertise, weren’t they really into the Vex?

[dim minnow]

haven't heard from Mars in a bit

[chrome fog]

And they left the Cryptarchy

[dim minnow]

I've got to give that place a look sometime

if I ever do enter the server, I would want to do it in a way where I can mess with Mael

[chrome fog]

Very fun, like a big lore chat but you can also make threads for random lore rants on other things

[dim minnow]

I tend to do a bunch of those

like my thought on Necromancy or Undying

[dim minnow]

shit now he knows

[chrome fog]

Honestly it’s been very nice to the point I’m super back logged on all the Destiny channels because I really want to read what everyone says

And there’s some really neat people who are pretty notable in the community

[odd flicker]

Is this just a big lore Discord?

The Cryptarchy, that is.

[chrome fog]

Yea

But it’s not all lore

[smoky rose]

🤝

[pine lion]

Just red some lore…so Marco and Rhulk went boom boom?

[dim minnow]

out of context that sounds odd

[real ingot]

Join and we can bully him

[heady gyro]

Thanks man

[lyric karma]

Do we have any lore about champions except the fact that they are combatants strengthened by darkness?

[limpid flower]

that’s pretty much it

saint fought some in the forest

[sick yew]

Afaik Champions are not a lore thing

[lyric karma]

sadge

[sick yew]

They dont exist in universe

Or at least not in the way we see ingame

[hardy anvil]

is this real or a troll?

[sick yew]

Troll

[trim grotto]

Very troll

[trim grotto]

They're offhandedly referenced once in a bounty
So basically not at all yeah

[steady nest]

how much do we know about stuff outside the solar system

[tawdry mauve]

a lot

we know the entire origins of the hive

a lot about torobatl

a few thing sabout the eliksni home planet

[steady nest]

what are those creatures Dirfiter was talking about in this weeks season of the deep story

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/ancient-apocalypse-suit-warlock
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/outlawed-reaper-bond

[grand jungle]

Why is it bad to talk bout siva is it like a nsfw thing ?

[steady nest]

No

[trim grotto]

Read the Ancient Apocalypse set first, then the Outlawed Reaper bond

[steady nest]

Alright

[trim grotto]

Because people obsessed over it for years and years and other people got tired of it

"When SIVA back, when SIVA subclass", so on so forth

[grand jungle]

I’ve never heard of it before XD

I’ve been hella confused

[trim grotto]

SIVA is a nanotechnology from D1, Rise of Iron. Real Grey Goo sort of vibe. CONSUME. ENHANCE. REPLICATE. No real AI of its own, but the Devil Splicers took control of it and unleashed it like a plague upon the Cosmodrome, and used it to enhance their bodies.

Devil Splicers being a fanatical offshoot of the House of Devils, a Fallen House

Think of Outbreak Perfected, that shoots SIVA particles.

[reef salmon]

"But erm siva can come back!1!"

[grand jungle]

Ah that’s actually interesting thxs for telling me

[trim grotto]

Which it technically could, to be fair. It was used to make Neomuna, in fact. As was its intended purpose - a colony construction tool.

But it could do and was used for much more than that.

[reef salmon]

I thought that quicksilver was a entirely different version of siva?

unless I misunderstood

[trim grotto]

Quicksilver wasn't created until later in Neomuna's history
SIVA was loaded onto the Exodus Indigo to help create the colony it was mean to found.

There's not a large amount of info on Quicksilver, really

[grand jungle]

Dam i love d2 lore

[chrome fog]

There was one use of SIVA prior to the Devil Splicers, wherein Rasputin lured Felwinter into a vault of the stuff because of its colony construction capabilities. The trip there killed a majority of the Iron Lords, and the rest them save for Saladin and Efrideet got trapped in the vault where Rasputin corrupted them and their ghosts with SIVA

This is shown in the intro cutscene to Roi, but we get some supplemental info on why Rasputin did all this

Mainly, it’s was because Felwinter was once part of Rasputin - an expeditionary frame meant to allow Rasputin to interact with human society, an entire submind of its own

That frame, Siddhartha Golem, was destroyed during the Collapse, and then resurrected as a Guardian, which made Rasputin feel like the Traveler took his son from him

Did not help that Clovis originally made Rasputin with plans to kill the Traveler and implant Rasputin as sole defender of humanity and the Sol System

Anyways, Rasputin was super depressed that he killed his son after the event, and had been on an existential crisis the entire time until D2 when we get his help with stuff by beating the shit out of Nokris and Xol on the Mars Braytech facilities

[chrome fog]

Bit of an elaboration on Rasputin’s development and creation, he was originally an AI emergency systems named R on the Ares One mission, the very one that went to Mars to make contact with the Traveler

[trim grotto]

Kinda went on a bit of a tangent there buddy, haha

[chrome fog]

Burdened with Knowledge, Cursed with Insight

[trim grotto]

Good summaries though
Ver nice

[ebon wharf]

So ik I heard about very few guardians being able to like make hardlight clones of themselves or just holograms in general and one person I heard that can do this or has done it was Osiris, can someone go a bit more in depth for me?

[trim grotto]

That was just Osiris. He made copies of himself out of Light.

Fragile, brittle, but dangerous and capable extensions of himself and his mind.

[ebon wharf]

We're they able to fight or like why did he do that?

[trim grotto]

They can fight and he has used it as such. For example, during Six Fronts, to help man each of the Walls.

[devout nimbus]

Hence people describing him as being everywhere in that battle

[trim grotto]

Most Guardians would remember his copies from the Infinite Forest or the Sundial, wherein he used them to scour the different simulations or timelines.

[ebon wharf]

Are they capable of welding light as the original does? Casting nova bombs and what not

[trim grotto]

Indeed they were

Though there were technically two versions
One of pure Light, and one with Vex tech involved. A difference of semntics, though.

[ebon wharf]

Is there any description of them? Did they look different?

[trim grotto]

We saw them in game back in Curse of Osiris.

Golden shimmering Light in the shape of Osiris

[ebon wharf]

And the other one you said had vex tech, was that shown too?

[trim grotto]

You're looking at it
There wasn't really a discernable difference, don't worry about that bit

[ebon wharf]

Ahh ok

Mb

[trim grotto]

It's a bit of an artifact of its time, imo, it wasn't much mentioned again

Just assume they're Light

[ebon wharf]

And was there a reason why he could do this or was he just that in tune with the light more than others

Or did he just shape his light like that

Cause Ik guardians can just do as they please with light

[trim grotto]

Osiris was always a very powerful Warlock. He was Ikora's mentor. So, both of the latter options, I suppose.

Studied under Lord Felwinter, which would have been an amusing combination of personalities.

[ebon wharf]

Ahh ok, tysm for explaining it all

[pine lion]

I got a lore question people

[ebon wharf]

Also there was no one else so far who's done the same thing?

[trim grotto]

Happy to help
I'd usually be a bit more detailed but I'm suck on mobile right now
Explanations and sources are harder to grab

[ebon wharf]

Or something similar?

[trim grotto]

Not that I'm aware of, no. It's a unique ability he's got there.

[pine lion]

So in cannon, do Guardians wipe on raids or in the lore they always first try every encounter and boss?

[ebon wharf]

Oh no worries, just answering my questions was enough, appreciate it

[trim grotto]

Generally speaking, we first try it, given that failure usually means our final death or some other disaster. But you could say that your wipes are a timeline thing - that is to say, in one timeline, you did wipe, and this one, you didn't.

[chrome fog]

You could say the closest thing to that is Arc Soul, Child of the Old Gods, and the Threadings (and maybe the copies Strand Hunters can make), though they’re not near the same complexity as full copies of one’s self

Perhaps they were developed for those arsenals in inspiration of Osiris’ technique

[outer dragon]

So the resurrections mechanism isn't fully understood by people, both IN universe and IRL
We have some theories but nothing solid

[chrome fog]

We know we can do it, but the specifics are vague; full disintegration seems to allow remote resurrection anywhere, yet if the body is preserved in full, resurrection can be prevented

[final stream]

I forget, what is the void again

[chrome fog]

Manipulation of gravitational potential energy

Which in itself allows for some funky stuff

[final stream]

Oh okay

I remember it wasn’t really light

[chrome fog]

It is Light

But its use was stigmatized for a while

[patent swallow]

is there any lore abt the sword on display in Zavala's office or is it just a random sword

[final stream]

I thought it was more energy than light

Or something

[trim grotto]

The sword? Nothing explicit, no.

[trim grotto]

The Light we use takes the form of and controls natural energies

Void is its own thing, though we use Void Light
Same with Arc and Solar

[final stream]

Oh ok

What is solar

And arc?

[trim grotto]

Osiris actually has an explanation for those in game over on Neomuna
I'd grab a source for you but my mobile refuses to open YouTube
But check the Destiny Lore Vault, the videos are on there somewhere

Unless ges will grab it as a favour

[chrome fog]

We have our own explanations in the pins, but Osiris has given us a very helpful insight into the subclass elements
https://youtu.be/3UKeMo3UerU

[trim grotto]

Non DLV video? Heresy and blasphemy.

[chrome fog]

So sorry 😔

I’ll tell Eruke sorry

Is there one like this on the DLV channel?

[trim grotto]

I believe they're separated, but in a playlist

[pine lion]

Do you think we can get a sixth sub class

Maybe….,,.. earth

Like rock shit

[outer dragon]

Earthbenders

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-earthbending-katara-gif-12273887

[chrome fog]

Ice

[pine lion]

Stasis is technically ice

[sick yew]

Its technically not ice

But acts like it

[sick yew]

Sounds boring

[ancient fox]

Cant be more boring than green striker

[sick yew]

Strand really aint boring

[ancient fox]

It is

[icy stream]

can we already talk about the new reset things or...?

[sick yew]

Yes

[icy stream]

i expected more discussion for something that was the n1 reason for destroying LF you know?

[sick yew]

Most people probably havent logged on yet

Me for example

[icy stream]

yeah, u right
i'm used to reddit where people are super active 1 second after reset lol

[sick yew]

We're in the mid of the season roughly so most people arent quite as active

[ancient fox]

I think the cutscene is absolutely ridiculous

[dim minnow]

so the Witness origin cutscene is out now?

[sick yew]

Seems to be so

[fiery copper]

Seevr

[dim minnow]

alright, then let me note something

the Vex in VoG were essentially trying to do the same thing the Witness is trying to do

and the VoG used the Black Garden's Heart in order to try and accomplish their goal

[empty fern]

YOOOO THE CUTSCENE FINALLT RELEASED

finally I can talk about it

We know what the witness is now

And kinda what the veil is?

[empty fern]

I’ve waited a month to talk about it

Darkness is confirmed to be thought and mind

[ancient fox]

Goofy ahh backstory

[little gorge]

I'm so glad i managed to dodge the leaks

i had only seen like 2 frames of it

holy shit that was amazing

this answers

so many questions

but also

doesn't this imply the pyramids were made with the help of the light

[dim minnow]

maybe the destructive aspect of Light

[main escarp]

man, now im more curious about the veil

[dim minnow]

does this cutscene confirm that the Veil is the Winnower?

[little gorge]

btw if you want some neat existential dread about the traveller read this week's lore book

and the chioma log is about siva?

the neomuna nanite thingies are siva mixed with vex?

[fiery copper]

LOL THE SERVERS ARE AT ORANGE BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LOGGING ON PURELY FOR THE CUTSCENE

[outer dragon]

LOL

[fickle stirrup]

i think it either confirms that, OR the way I interpreted it was that there was no Winnower and so the thousands of people combined to become the Witness, thus becoming the Winnower

[tawdry mauve]

So we know what the witness is but we still have no idea what the veil is

Bruh

[fickle stirrup]

[tawdry mauve]

Also

[odd flicker]

What about the Veil did they think would temper the Traveler as a "Winnower"

[tawdry mauve]

The unveiling is literal

Its not even symbolism anymore

Its just the witness larping as a primordial force

[odd flicker]

I mean that would imply that the Witness's race was from another dimension, and that they also had Ahamkara and other things lying around.

Right?

I think it's still symbolism, the Witness is now just confirmed to not be the Traveler's exact opposite.

Unless we get some cutscene next season that the Traveler is also some "man" made creation.

[fickle stirrup]

yeah, i mean if going inside the traveler really is some sort of "final-death afterlife" for guardians or something then the veil would literally just be the thing required to open a rift between our reality and the afterlife. i mean what else are we supposed to think when we still can't know for sure 😭

[chrome fog]

Go👏do👏the👏 Veil👏Containment👏scan

[chrome fog]

That fits with the theory that the Witness is one of the flowers created in the Flower Games

[odd flicker]

From just rewatching it again it kind of seems like the Veil is the Traveler's opposite. They obtained access to the Darkness by studying the Veil, whereas you have to be given the Light by the Traveler.

[chrome fog]

And I would like to link my theory before I go do the reset

Just scroll down from that point and read some of my points

[odd flicker]

Maybe the Veiled Lady statue represents that in someway? Everything under the veil is covered in darkness, cut down to one shape under the veil, but everything outside the veil is...well, everything outside the veil, representative of the chaotic spread and growth of Light.

[ancient fox]

The veil is some bullshit

[odd flicker]

I think the implication from the cutscenes is that the Veil is the Traveler's opposite.

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm wow this is very constructive and totally hasn’t been repeated over and over again, perhaps they created a repeatable voluntary scannable that gives more info on the Veil when you go into the Veil Containment area

[ancient fox]

Oh you mean the one they timegated to hell

[kindred fractal]

Does the new cutscene mean that the wager between the Winnower and the Gardener never happened?

[ancient fox]

The one that so far has had very little to do with the veil

That one?

[chrome fog]

Perhaps it was a wager with itself on what the outcome of the many flower games they played

[chrome fog]

Perhaps take a break from lore and calm down

Doesn’t seem like going into it is doing you any good

[ancient fox]

Who said I wasnt calm lol

[kindred fractal]

Leakers saw it first

[ancient fox]

I saw this all when the season came out yeah

[ancient fox]

Bungie forgot about all of that so they could make a stereotypical big bad

[kindred fractal]

I wanted to talk ab it but you apparently can't discuss leaks

[ancient fox]

Its best not to pay attention to it

[sick yew]

[chrome fog]

We can discuss it now since it is in-game now, I think
I need to play the reset though

[sick yew]

You guys better not be discussing leaks

[sick yew]

Mhm

[ancient fox]

The only leak im discussing is the one in my tire

[chrome fog]

We’re being good Alex

[empty fern]

Kek

[ancient fox]

The witness is a bunch of guys who decided that life was too good so they got mad

[sick yew]

[empty fern]

Quite literally took salvation into their own hands

[chrome fog]

That fits

Knew it

https://tenor.com/view/napoleon-dynamite-kip-yes-gif-5860703

[ancient fox]

Also the traveler was just sitting in the ground?

Id like for them to expand on that but they wont

[sick yew]

Bro was chilling

[chrome fog]

*Sis

[sick yew]

Using bro as a neutral term*

[ancient fox]

The traveler is a ball

[chrome fog]

True

[hollow oar]

What do people think of the cutscene?

[chrome fog]

Literally just be patient and they will; three years since we even knew of the Witness and they’ve given us a backstory for them

[dry lagoon]

That is definitely a cutscene if I’ve seen one yep

[sick yew]

Probably the biggest plot twist we ever got in the game yeah

[ancient fox]

Man ive been patient for 5 years

[sick yew]

Decent you may call it

[odd flicker]

I dunno if it was a plot twist really.

[chrome fog]

Then you can be patient again. We still have content past Final Shape

[ancient fox]

Not very twisty at all

[dry lagoon]

I feel like the plot twist was mainly that the travelers first blessed civilization created the pyramid ships, also the veil being the literal origin of darkness but that’s it ig

[ancient fox]

Cayde 6 expansion, ill pass

[sick yew]

It fundamentally changes a lot of things we thought we knew

[chrome fog]

I’d say it is, considering how majority of the player base barely pays attention to the story and then floods the media feeds with clickbait revelations that people who pay attention to lore saw coming, or at least theorized

[chrome fog]

Also this

[kindred fractal]

I don't get the cayde-6 hate

[hollow oar]

Radial for the amount of complaining you do I'm surprised you still play tbh

[hollow oar]

As a living character, he was mostly just comedic relief

[sick yew]

He was annoying, badly written character that continously killed all seriousness there was in a scene

[chrome fog]

D2Y1 had him written super cringey Marvel-style and people didn’t like this character assassination; thankfully he got assassinated for real shortly after

[ancient fox]

Cayde 6 will solo the witness at the end of TFS

[hollow oar]

Most of Cayde's good lore came through his death

[dry lagoon]

Dudes coulda just been content with vibing and being spoiled but nope

[ancient fox]

So it has been written

[chrome fog]

Hmmm yes this is how someone who is calm is like

[odd flicker]

What did it change though? I feel like we just learned information where there was a gap.

[ancient fox]

Where is this coming from

[dry lagoon]

Learning the exact origin of the darkness is a pretty big twist imo, super hot take here

And it being the veil also

[chrome fog]

Now I really want to play the reset

[odd flicker]

It's not a twist is all I mean lol

[sick yew]

Unveiling seems to just be almost entirely retconned and also stuff like the origin of the Vex is again just completely unknown

[dry lagoon]

that’s a pretty big twist yes

[ancient fox]

He was a poorly written character, said to not be coming back because it would cheapen his death, and is now being used as nostalgia bait

I am not a fan

[dry lagoon]

unless you thought the veil was the darkness origin, you either are a genius or are a dirty leaker

[hollow oar]

I mean, it depends on how he's brought back

If he's being written as a lot more mature due to whatever is causing him to reappear

Then I'd say he's fine

[ancient fox]

The front page of the bungie store the day the teaser went up:

We all know why hes really back

[hollow oar]

Radial, it's a real wonder why you haven't quit at this point

[dry lagoon]

I guess next week will be ahsa either telling us about how to get to the witness, or like her telling us how she knows all this

[odd flicker]

But that's just learning new information, a twist would've been like "The Veil is the source of Darkness...and both it and the Traveler were created by a giant Ahamkara!"

A stupid twist mind you, but a twist.

[dry lagoon]

I mean it’s not a crazy twist like something like insane but it’s still a twist

Like an “oh”

[odd flicker]

The Veil being the source of Darkness is just kind of new information, which the weekly Veil Containments have been alluding.

[fiery copper]

Muting this server until I can watch the cutscene

C yall

[dry lagoon]

it’s ig just your interpretation of how a twist is anyway

[odd flicker]

Honestly with how Bungie has been lately, yeah.

[ancient fox]

I just about have, im just very disappointed that bungie are doing this to a story ive been following since early 2019

[odd flicker]

Yeah I suppose it's just semantics.

Either way, I like that the Witness isn't just the Winnower.

Confirmed, rather.

[dry lagoon]

It’s trying to get to that status tho

[ancient fox]

Next big bad incoming

[chrome fog]

Radial, you’re being fairly abrasive with the discussion of the story and seem solely focused on putting down the story beats that Bungie has been making. Perhaps take a bit to collect your thoughts

[ancient fox]

Ive been collecting my thoughts since lightfall dropped and since every story beat after has been cliche or has made no sense

[chrome fog]

The “oh we know why cayde’s coming back” and “this was such a stupid cutscene I don’t like it” is contributing to this

[odd flicker]

Can you imagine how much cooler of a reveal it would've been for the Veil if they just told us that to begin with? We find out that the Veil is the Traveler's opposite and we try to make a break for it to destroy it, meanwhile Nimbus and Rohan try to stop us.

[ancient fox]

Careful, youre dangerously close to making lightfall good

[smoky rose]

Why would we try to destroy it

The Veil isn't responsible for any of this

[chrome fog]

We’ve had heated ‘discussions’ on what they could and should’ve done with Lightfall and the Veil, but at present we should appreciate that Bungie is going back and elaborating on the narrative points that they skimped on in Lightfall

[ancient fox]

Do I have to post the store page again or what? We do know why cayde is coming back, hes nostalgia bait

I shouldnt have to tell you this

[chrome fog]

Man

You’re harshing the vibes

[torpid flint]

You see, they’ve done this with every expansion however

[odd flicker]

Not that we should try to, but just that characters would fall back on the Witness=Darkness=Bad shtick.

[torpid flint]

Beyond Light is sorta an expection

[chrome fog]

*Exception?

[odd flicker]

We ultimately wouldn't destroy the Veil or anything, and I'm not a writer so as I'm typing this I'm recognizing that sounds more stupid.

But still, just telling us what the Veil was outright would've made its reveal in Lightfall way more interesting.

[torpid flint]

But that’s cause the seasonal stories focused on us gaining allies, which wasn’t a narrative point in BL

which was a good move imo

[chrome fog]

That did give more build-up to a collective threat us and our allies would be facing, which helps with the anticipation

[torpid flint]

Yes

but point is, they could have done better for LF, but I’m not gonna put too much blame all things considered

[ancient fox]

Why did the witness only bring like 5 pyramids to assault the traveler

[torpid flint]

cause it only needed 5?

why bring your whole fleet when you don’t need it?

[slim elk]

Funny thing on the Veil exposure
Exposure to it inadvertently resulted in the Witness.. as can be seen
Now Maya was exposed.. and speaks of salvation like the Witness does

Cloudark has all of Neomunas minds in one "system"

Seems... familar

[ancient fox]

Idk just in case the thing that has been running for all of existence tries to run again

[torpid flint]

The traveler made a final stand with humanity during the collaspe, it wouldn’t go back. Besides, it has nowhere to run

[chrome fog]

[torpid flint]

Sol is literally surrounded by pyramids

[chrome fog]

Going to finish folding all this laundry and get to that reset

This is the last relatively safe corner in the universe

[torpid flint]

don’t know about safe, but yeah

[chrome fog]

And even then the Pyramids almost made another advance and took a good portion of the system before the Traveler intervened once again

[chrome fog]

Not completely safe, but relative to everywhere else yeah

[little gorge]

the witness' people were looking for that "purpose" before they found the veil

that's why they even looked for it

actually idk how right it is to say "the witness' people"

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/yippee-happy-celebration-joy-confetti-gif-25557730

More lore explaining itself

[slim elk]

But yes
Witness is not the Winnower. Hard confirmation

[ancient fox]

Oh yeah they just found the veil floating in space

[little gorge]

imma just call them "the witnesses" from now on

[chrome fog]

Like wow, perhaps taking a good look and analysis of what is being presented will reveal answers you want

[ancient fox]

Epic veil origin story this season guys!

It was just there

[little gorge]

why do you hate on the veil as if the traveller is any different

[chrome fog]

#📚lore-discussion message
cough cough

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
And then that might tie into the implication that the Winnower and Gardener might’ve been one and the same, simply two aspects talking to each other (which is inferred from Bau’s citations, which went along the lines of the two of them being sisters split apart as well as how both overlap into each other’s job); the Veil could be the Winnower and technically the Gardener

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jun 20, 2023, 5:10 AM

[ancient fox]

Oh dude you arent ready for this

[chrome fog]

Believe us we’re ready

[ancient fox]

I think the way bungie has handled both of them sucks

Mind blown I know

[torpid flint]

Don’t, you’re gonna start another lore war over Winnowner/Witness or Winnowner and Witness

[little gorge]

i mean

I don't agree

[chrome fog]

[little gorge]

but at least that's not self contradictory

[chrome fog]

Bro(Radial) go take a walk

[little gorge]

which is more than i can say for a lot of destiny takes

[ancient fox]

You keep acting like im not calm and for what

[chrome fog]

[ancient fox]

Because I think the story is going downhill?

[chrome fog]

I’m so tired man

Every season

[little gorge]

how do you even start a war over that after this cutscene

it's literally not the winnower, end of discussion

[torpid flint]

Do you have the slightest idea how many times we’ve had the discussion of Crow is Uldren after 2 years of Bungie saying Crow is not Uldren?

[chrome fog]

I haven’t even watched it, but what I’ve read and heard seems like my big theory that builds on a couple other people’s theories is being validated

[little gorge]

ok fair

[chrome fog]

Gotta compile all these messages for the Cryptarchy and see how my theory holds up

[chrome fog]

Fair

Hell, I even did a big text wall about how they aren’t the same person

And it’s been two years

Since Crow even existed

[ancient fox]

There is some light at the end of the tunnel: anthony and ian from old smosh are buying back the company

[little gorge]

there should be a mandatory common sense test to enter this channel

[chrome fog]

I do need a palette cleanse for this channel, someone saying something absolutely batshit insane and completely believing in their own words

Like that “Sol is named after the Traveler” guy

[torpid flint]

I actually don’t mind the story currently

Season story has always been baller

Since BL

[smoky rose]

More recently crow has been accepting they are the same ngl

I'm pretty sure he went through the stages of grief over a couple seasons and we just pretended that he wasn't

[chrome fog]

Well
More that they’re very similar

[torpid flint]

I think him understanding who he was will make him a better character

[chrome fog]

But that’s semantics

[torpid flint]

True

[chrome fog]

Ma boi Crow growin as a person, may he have good development in years to come

Oh, Radial? Cayde’s already been brought back in the lore through some capacity, in the form of Ikora’s nightmare during Haunted. In fact, Haunted and the purified Memories might hint as to how Cayde is brought back in the Final Shape teaser

It mainly ties into the ship you get from this season’s vendor, Akashic Revelations

[torpid flint]

I still kinda hope it won’t happen

Kinda muffles the point of Forsaken

[candid inlet]

gestaltzerfall2343 (ID 422866711344185345)

[Message Link](#📚lore-discussion message) to #📚lore-discussion
This is also the definition of Akashic Records

Command triggered by gestaltzerfall2343. Message link from · Jun 19, 2023, 2:02 AM

[chrome fog]

I say it builds on what Forsaken establishes

He’s not really back, he’s still dead - just like Ghaul, Saffiya, and Uldren aren’t really back either

But beyond that portal, to wherever they end up in the teaser, there most likely exists recreated copies of things from our past

Not them in actuality, but close approximations

And not only would that tie well into the blending of Light and Darkness in this new dimension, it also allows Bungie to bring back vaulted content with valid lore reasoning as to how and why it has returned

[ancient fox]

He will say his signature catchphrase "https://bungiestore.net"

[chrome fog]

This ‘Akashic Plane’ of recreated history

[chrome fog]

Hey hey hey hey discuss lore, shut up about the store

It’s annoying

[ancient fox]

That is lore

[devout nimbus]

Store lore

[chrome fog]

Store lore bore

[ancient fox]

Cayde was resurrected through the power of pure capitalistic greed, its the third paracausal power in the destiny universe

It can make anything happen

[chrome fog]

Buy yourself some relaxation then

Please

[steel nova]

you can get lore books in epub at humble bundle

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/destiny-grimoire-anthology-collection-bungie-books

[chrome fog]

Nice

[steel nova]

and you can also get a 15% off bungie store coupon with this offer

[ancient fox]

15% off the cayde funko

Its time

[chrome fog]

Aight bye lorechat for another month

[torpid flint]

Can we please not bring capitalism bad into lore chat?

[smoky rose]

Anyways so now that we can talk about that cutscene

[torpid flint]

Oh you mean the leaked one

[smoky rose]

That's in the week's story

So we can talk about it now

[torpid flint]

That YouTube recommended to me, a month ago

[ancient fox]

Once leaked, now released

[smoky rose]

Yep

I've been sitting on it twiddling my thumbs

[torpid flint]

If I’m going by what I saw in the thumbnail

It showed the Witness’ people?

[odd flicker]

Yup

[smoky rose]

So the way I heard it (spoilers for the cutscene, do not click if you want to watch it yourself):
||- they wanted a purpose, a winnower

• they tried to do the portal thing with the veil
• traveler ran away
• they "merged themselves into the salvation they craved", the Witness
  Now that to me indicates that the Witness IS the winnower, as they became what they desired. However, this also indicates that Unveiling might have been fabricated||

[little gorge]

it's the idea of the winnower