📚lore-discussion

[paper raft]

1th

[cinder rampart]

first

[paper raft]

LETS GO

[cinder rampart]

i am lore nerd

nuh i was first

[waxen grotto]

yall 💀

[paper raft]

im 1th

[cinder rampart]

nuh

[waxen grotto]

someone delete his 1st message it'd be funny

[trim grotto]

Do we still have the old pin list? Or do I have to dig up my links and resource folders again?

[rigid fiber]

Hang on

[paper raft]

dont

[empty fern]

Explain the entirety of vex travel with the pool of water sense
GO NOW

[cinder rampart]

WHY

[rigid fiber]

More lore resources:

Witch queen CE book transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit

Beyond Light’s logbook transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit

Explaining the nature of Arc, Solar and Void: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/k4k6ox/light_is_not_the_fundamental_forces made by LettuceDifferent

An updated analysis of Stasis: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/tb1svc/an_updated_analysis_of_stasis made by VintageNuke

Understanding the Void: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/mgn0e6/the_secrets_of_void_light_demystified made by LettuceDifferent

[sinful pivot]

1th

[trim grotto]

Oh, let me get the LF CE transcripts.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19WPJUsdOioB64g_bQciQ6zaUn3EDStZXKWBxkn1-dW4/edit?usp=sharing

[rigid fiber]

Hi all!

I’d like to remind all of you that speculation about upcoming content is fine, but discussion surrounding leaks and-or datamines are still against our rules and are met with moderator action when broken.

If you have any questions, please refer to #✅welcome-and-rules or open a ticket via #💌contact-us.

For more information about lore-sources please see the pinned messages below.

[empty fern]

Watch mael apply for mod and lurk around in lore all day

[trim grotto]

i was considering it

[ember storm]

i will also contribute

[solid minnow]

Am I allowed to talk about a theory I have?

[ember storm]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nUd779p7kmOxSBZKt-DtA77ZQ64GejL4ofzhgODLYDA/edit#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/144XUO4XGyCdNvcEVG_ptlR1eWQNr7F2gwbvqFGVponU/edit#gid=98059770

[trim grotto]

Absolutely. As long as it isn't a thinly veiled theory that's actually based on leaks that you're passing off as your own work.

[solid minnow]

I remembered an emblem that came out around season of the haunted

[ember storm]

very important

[solid minnow]

It’s called “Starbirth” and it reminds me a lot of the traveler rn, idek if this helps or not but I thought it was interesting how it’s called starbirth

[trim grotto]

It does look vaguely reminiscent of the new portal.

[ember storm]

that was for watching the august showcase, right?

[solid minnow]

Yeah

[reef salmon]

sorry for ping mael

[trim grotto]

i feel obligated to say that i didn't actually write this and that it is also outdated by now

[reef salmon]

Oh thanks for letting me know

Ill go ahead and remove it

[trim grotto]

This was pre-LF speculatory/early known facts

[dim minnow]

you got the little write up I made on how to kill guardians?

[reef salmon]

I dont think the pins we had saved are the most up to date sadly

[empty fern]

Make a new updated version
From scratch

[trim grotto]

Dova and I could probably go over some stuff worth pinning at some point soon

[dim minnow]

yeah, but it will have to be later for me

[trim grotto]

Same for me

[dim minnow]

damn, my list of reasons for why Petra sucks is gone

[jolly vector]

now you have a chance to list them again

[slim mulch]

^
Perfect opportunity

[empty fern]

Ye

How dare there be a slow mode on a channel that’s never active

1

Yay

[gilded ember]

I bet they developers just look at this channel giggling at how wrong we all are

[tawdry mauve]

lmao what developers

you think there is bungie staff in this server?

[empty fern]

Lurking and watching, and not caring

[warm cave]

How did Taniks come back in deepstone? I forgot to read the lore tab

[torpid flint]

Add more reasons

[torpid flint]

Basically, Fallen revived him

[empty fern]

Exo magic

[warm cave]

Okay

[empty fern]

More mechanical stuff

[torpid flint]

Where Nexus 73?

[empty fern]

At some point in time

Like the vex

[torpid flint]

where is Nexus 1?

Is he safe?

[empty fern]

No

[torpid flint]

you have killed 71 Nexuses

[empty fern]

Maybe

It’s rather embarrassing

[torpid flint]

You motherf-

Anyway

We need to be able to visit a vex star forge one day

Would be sick

[ornate vale]

im hoping the next dlc is vex related

[fiery copper]

we need to visit a lot of places that are cool but only mentioned once

[ornate vale]

there are

[fiery copper]

but on the other hand, i feel like that's the purpose of them only being mentioned once

to let us know we won't go there

because it's only mentioned once

[empty fern]

Isn’t more witnessy and stuff? Probably not, but hopefully the seasons are

[ornate vale]

it is (or highly likely) to be darkness/witness related

[jolly vector]

the only thing that's hard to tell would be the seasons after the first one

[paper raft]

is this the space station from dsc?

[ornate vale]

im just hoping for an expansion on vex since the last one we’ve really had was curse of osiris

[jolly vector]

like will we be rebuilding or keep doing some shit related to fighting witness

[ornate vale]

i presume that is the remains of the iss

definitely not the dsc

[paper raft]

deep stone crypt

its a raid

[jolly vector]

its also a place

[paper raft]

oh yea

i meant

the space station we were on

in the deep stone crypt raid

[fiery copper]

no, the Morningstar has two main things keeping it from being that.

[ornate vale]

it is big boomed

[paper raft]

so what the hell is it

[fiery copper]

1. it was in orbit of Europa, which is a bit of a drive away from Luna.
2. it blew the fuck up and is now raining down onto Europa's surface

[empty fern]

What’s this small town like area? (From xur tower spawn point)

[ornate vale]

not sure if its the seraphs shield space station, dunno if that ever blew up

im assuming its the ISS

[paper raft]

iss?

[torpid flint]

How big was this fucking space station again?

it’s been 2 years now

[ornate vale]

international space station

[fiery copper]

maybe bigger than two RVs parked next to each other? idk

[paper raft]

ah that

[torpid flint]

Ahh yes, bigger than two RVs

Very specific

[fiery copper]

hmm

three RVs

[ornate vale]

probably some random factory or some shit i dont think that place is of significance

[paper raft]

also did the iss blow up in the destiny universe?

you are saying that those are the remains

[ornate vale]

these are just assumptions

its likely the ISS blew up with the collapse but i dont think there any specific mentions of that in lore

it could also be the seraphs shield space station but im not sure of that either

its a pretty similar shape

[paper raft]

also what the fuck is the seraph shield station

oh wait

from the exotic quest?

[ornate vale]

the space station near earth in season of seraph

exotic mission yea

[paper raft]

and how did it arrive to earth

or near earth

[fiery copper]

it was there

it was built there

[paper raft]

when.

[fiery copper]

golden age?

[paper raft]

not a deep lore guy

so dont know this shit

[ornate vale]

its always been in earths orbit iirc

[paper raft]

so im guessing we dont really know what that space station near the moon really is

[ornate vale]

cant say for certain

[slim mulch]

Tbh, its also likely it was decomissioned for a better space station bc while i cant remember the divergence point for our history and Destiny, cant imagine they couldnt make a more advanced space station that replaced the ISS
Esp as research corps and stuff became more prominent

[torpid flint]

An actual functional planetary government that doesn’t start dumbass wars?

Just that alone makes Destiny unrealistic

[chrome fog]

Welcome back again people

[empty fern]

Indeed

[torpid flint]

Where have you been

[chrome fog]

Cryptarchy

[torpid flint]

Rahool tortured you didn’t he?

[chrome fog]

It’s actually been fun, we have that person who got the internship in the server

[torpid flint]

neat

[chrome fog]

Plus I can make a thread to shove my Bionicle thoughts in

[torpid flint]

2,000 pages later with a million more well on their way

[ember storm]

the way that was avoided was everyone was just leaving each other alone to get their own thing

it meant that the main conflict was just infighting

also there’s not really any evidence for a solar system wide government

[slim elk]

Flip side of it is what made Clovis Bray able to get away with all his hidden secrets

Made his Corp so essential to space travel he owned at least Europa

[drifting pond]

yo can anyone explain what the veil is

[limpid flower]

google can

[fiery copper]

No

[drifting pond]

what about the cloudark

[rich veldt]

iirc its meant to be like 2014 they reach the ball on mars

[slim mulch]

yeah then theres no shot the ISS wasnt being decomissioned lol

like maybe if it was the early commissioning era bc of its modularity

but by the mid 2010s, thing was old

they most likly drew up better designs for a scientific research station by then

[chrome fog]

Not quite planetary as it’s only one city, though through technicality it is

[chrome fog]

Paracausal artifact of Darkness, might be sentient if the weekly Veil Containment journal logs are to go by

Friendly reminder to do that this season and check the containment area each weekly reset for the next journal entry

If you missed any, just leave and come back to that spot

[chrome fog]

Bastardized summary of what it is: Metaverse/VRchat but how the creators imagine it would be. Another example might be the sword art online vr systems in that one movie after the two seasons, the one where ‘ooooo wow the vr is in real life too’

Currently the entire Neomuna population has been quarantined in the CloudArk since Season of Arrivals, with their bodies in cryopods in bunkers underneath the city whilst their jacked into the CloudArk for some semblance of normalcy

[chrome fog]

For an example of one of these, you get one for each visit to the veil containment center after that one mission
https://youtu.be/xoxf0LFYtNk

[dim minnow]

where tf are you?

[slim mulch]

Psiops battleground
Moon

So

Like right behind eris's area?

Oh, nvm psiops, not the other one

Mb

[dim minnow]

How to kill a Guardian:

1. Destroy their Ghost
   Without their Ghost, Guardians are unable to use their Light-based abilities along with other advantages that their Ghost brings which means they can't be revived. Ghosts however, can be difficult targets to hit and depending on their connection to the Traveler will require specific weaponry to destroy. If a Ghost has a stable connection to the Traveler, then either overwhelming force or a paracausal weapon is needed in order to destroy them. Although, certain conditions can be met where the Ghost will be made more vulnerable. Such cases could be if the Ghost is in an area heavily afflicted by Darkness or during the Red War when the Traveler was caged.
2. Drain the Guardian's Light
   As stated, Guardians wield Light-based abilities so draining them of their Light would prevent them from accessing them which does include resurrection. Thorn and the Sword of Crota were both known Light-draining weapons which means that a Guardian killed by them can't be revived even with a living Ghost. It is also possible to create devices capable of cutting off a Guardian's connection to the Light as well such as the Traveler cage the Red Legion used during the Red War, and later, the Light-suppression devices made by the psion conclave who sought to kill Zavala twice, but failed. These Light-suppression devices were smaller versions of the Traveler cage that were shot onto Ghosts in order to sever the Light from individual Guardians. It is noted that a Guardian drained of their Light can still benefit from their Ghost if it isn't destroyed and can even later regain their connection to the Light.
3. Ontological Weapons
   These weapons attack one's own existence and can bypass ressurrection entirely. These include VoG Gorgons, the Deathsong, and potentially Techeun magic (or Techeun magic enhanced by Taken power). Though Ontological weapons are rare and difficult to come by.
4. Make sure the Guardian's body is unreachable to the Ghost.

[quartz ledge]

number 4 only kinda works, its a temporary solution

eventually if the ghost ever gets to the body it could revive them

[dim minnow]

yeah

I was a little on the fence with adding this, but No Rez for the Weary kind of proves this can work

[quartz ledge]

makes sense

[dim minnow]

also having a Guardian's body be too deep in Titan's depths is stated to work as well

[quartz ledge]

oh fr?

didnt know that one

[dim minnow]

because even with NPA Repulsion Regulators, being too deep in Titan's oceans is not good

[quartz ledge]

wait then i have a question rq

[dim minnow]

I think it was stated that the Wrathborn servitor boss did that

[quartz ledge]

if something like a pyramid fleet or the witness were to destroy titan, and the guardian's body was later retrieved, would it be possible to revive?

im guessing its not confirmed but speculating

[dim minnow]

if the body was completely destroyed then I think revive is possible

[quartz ledge]

makes sense

was there ever an actual case of that?

[dim minnow]

not sure, but it is stated that we are keeping Savathun's body intact because of this

[quartz ledge]

aight thanks

cya

[azure badge]

What happened to that one titan in the start of lightfall

[dim minnow]

which one?

[azure badge]

The one who was uhh

[dim minnow]

the guy who got sliced?

[azure badge]

All broken and shit

[dim minnow]

sectioned?

that would be Reed-7, he was part of Shayura's fireteam

he's dead

his Ghost got cut up as well

Shayura and Aisha's ghosts seemed to be spared though

[azure badge]

The one who was like half in a darkness ship

[slim mulch]

You mean the S21 opening?

[dim minnow]

that guy was Joxer

used to work for Drifter, but decided to turn his life around and work for the Vanguard following the Gambit Prime fiasco

[chrome fog]

He’s also dead, according to the ship you get leveling up the seasonal vendor

That lore tab has greater implications for what’s on the other side of the portal as well as what happened in the Final Shape teaser

[bold star]

😭 bro turned his life around just to get his body melted into a rock

[chrome fog]

He got to glimpse his life prior to being a Guardian

Unfortunately he also got to hear his own screams before he started screaming

[dim minnow]

they really did 2 random lore-only characters dirty

let me guess, Siegfried will be killed off next

[bold star]

why does shiro-4 not pop up anymore in game

whats his deal in lore now

[dim minnow]

Shiro was only ingame in D1

and we never really got much of him nowadays

strange how Tyra Karn at least had some more relevance than him

[flint ridge]

hi dova

[dim minnow]

hello mykal

[chrome fog]

Congrats on the paragon

[daring iris]

“lore-only characters” isn’t that like... 99% of characters in the destiny universe?

there’s only a handful of vendors and npcs in the game

[chrome fog]

I was not here when Rats got paragon

[chrome fog]

You fight a lot of them

[tulip knoll]

It’s possible I’m sure, we disintegrated or I think just straight up “unraveled” ourselves when we were strand training so there’s one occurrence

[analog torrent]

Yeah, it's pretty much guaranteed the Awoken Guardian was one of the early returns - one of the Corsairs recognises you and Mara Sov says you weren't Reefborn, so the Awoken Guardian must've been born in the Distributary.
anyone got a link to the ishtar collective article on this? I didn't know the player had backstory lore, however scarce this is

Exo players get that bit in dsc but it's a general statement rather than something directly about the player, idk if human players have anything, do exo or human players have specific lore like this?

[trim grotto]

That seems flawed. Not Reefborn can mean you simply left the Reef to join those on Earth during the schism.

Like, presumably, Zavala. Or Orin.

[bold star]

i love my ghost

[dim minnow]

ok, gonna retype my Petra hate list

[rich veldt]

wooo fuck petra dont do shit

[lone lichen]

The line about some of the corsairs recognizing you from before you died comes from one of the Oracle missions in the dreaming city. It's one of the three story missions on a weekly cycle

[shrewd egret]

The fact that oryx’s son is toddler sized compared to oryx is hilarious to me

[trim grotto]

Sedia: Even before this curse, I always thought our people were tragic. We came from humanity, but we are not of humanity. When our friends and siblings and lovers die, it's always a gamble. You hold your breathe, wondering, "Will they be resurrected as a Guardian? And if they are, will they forget me?" I've seen some of the Corsairs recognize you as you pass. Taboo to speak of the old times, though. They don't matter.
Good memory!

Nevertheless, being that an Awoken Young Wolf was found on Earth, I find it likely that they became Earthborn. This does not mean to literally be born on Earth, however, but to have drifted away from the Awoken of the Reef.
Thus the riven Awoken were riven again, into Reefborn and Earthborn. Those who left went to scour the ruins for lost history and give some succor to their Human cousins who still clung to a hostile world. The Awoken came unto these Humans like nephilim, armed with lost weapons, forgotten industry and medicine. They were like omens of hope, for they were often taken to be starborn colonists returned to the hearth, which was not, after all, so far from truth. All who looked on them saw that the night sky contained more than lurking doom. They bred true with each other and sometimes hybridized with Humans, and in the course of centuries, many forgot the Distributary and even the Reef. However, there was always in their souls an itch, a vector pointing to a distant place in the Asteroid Belt, where their Queen still dwelt.

In fact, while diving through this dialogue...

Sedia: I see why the Queen favors you, cousin. You are courageous and relentless. To me, that is what it is to be Awoken. Earthborn or not, you're one of us. Luck go with you as you defend the observatory again.

Sedia describes us as Earthborn

Assuming "us" as Awoken of course

[dim minnow]

1. She was forced to work in the Last City as an Emissary as punishment for calling an airstrike that killed 3 fireteams of Guardians and their Ghosts who were fighting deeply entrenched Fallen Wolves.
2. While in exile, she showed great disdain towards the people of the city thinking that the "don't know their place".
3. Between Red War and Forsaken, when Cayde apprehended Fikrul and Uldren, she decided to lock Uldren up in the Prison of Elders alongside Fikrul and the other Scorn Barons and made sure only her, Cayde, and Variks were the only ones to know that the Prince was still alive.
4. After this, she left the task of curing Uldren and Fikrul's respective conditions solely on Variks' shoulders which could be seen as one of the leading factors behind his decision to abandon the Prison starting the vents of Forsaken. Could of asked techeuns or even the Last City to help, but no, must not make her people any less happy I guess.
5. She heavily despises Zavala even going to the point to where she fantasizes about being superior to him and mopping up his dissolved remains off of the floor. Not even joking here.
6. I really doubt she had no idea what Uldren was planning until she failed to stop him at the EDZ. She may not have known about Riven being behind it, but she had to know that Uldren took over the Tangled Shore so he could get to the Dreaming City. Maybe the Vanguard would have gotten involved if they knew Uldren could unleash a Taken Ahamkara, and maybe the Dreaming City fisaco wouldn't have been so bad. Instead Petra kept it a secret until after Uldren was able to reach his goal.
7. She wasn't even the one who summoned Guardians to aid the Awoken in the Dreaming City, that would be Paladin Kamala Rior.
8. Variks questioned quite a few of Petra's decisions as acting regent, including her lack of action towards preventing the Scorned Barons from growing in power.
9. Despite everything that has happened thus far, she has refused to change unlike Mara.

a little different than the original

[scarlet pasture]

this is a serious question

can the exos🔞?

just a yes or no, no need to go into detail

i swear i mean no ill intent by asking this

[dim minnow]

the Concierge AI from Warmind has stated that Exos were given the need to eat, sleep, drink, and "reproduce"

and seeing as how exos are capable of drinking, they may have given exos a means to simulate these needs

[scarlet pasture]

i lied

i did mean ill intent

[trim grotto]

She also missed Uldren at the Shard when he wasn't even moving at the time

Now I'm not exactly CammyCakes but even I could make that shot

[dim minnow]

you ever get the feeling that maybe there was supposed to be a mission in Forsaken where we went to the EDZ

[stone turtle]

I forget

You dislike Petra, not Mara right?

[dim minnow]

correct

[stone turtle]

How is Petra holding up presently in lore?

[trim grotto]

Well, she's with Mara again, so better than before. Still defending the Dreaming City, though.

[scarlet pasture]

is the dreaming city dreaming?

[trim grotto]

It's cursed. More like a Nightmare.

[paper raft]

on the moon, saw those red temples during the strike so I think it's the scarlet keep

[fresh zephyr]

Is there a reason Nezarec and Tormentors have comically small legs and heads proportionate to their bodies??

It’s sorta like they got sucked into a toilet or something.

[ruby pivot]

hmmm question if i remember correctly

in d2 universe, paper is a rare resources right?

[fresh zephyr]

I think so

It isn’t really necessary with the existence of data pads tho

[ruby pivot]

meaning the books are also guarded on how rare they are too

i mean yeah you got a point

[fresh zephyr]

Eris owns books I think

[ruby pivot]

but i dont remember where i read that, they are trying to preserve the paper as its like an important piece of the uhhh golden age or somethin

[fresh zephyr]

Hm
Why not just make more paper

It’s not like it’s exactly hard to make, especially since we are literally superheroes

I mean

Ada-1, Banshee, Either of the Bray sisters, Eris, could all make paper

Frames

Ikora

Why are they worshipping paper? Maybe they are concerned about the knowledge on the paper

[ruby pivot]

yeah make sense

probably

not sure if they still have the knowledge of making a paper

[fresh zephyr]

Ancient weapon blueprints are a staple of the Destiny franchise

[fresh zephyr]

It’s wet tree bark laid out over a grid

I mean

[ruby pivot]

and i am also not sure if the knowledge of paper making in d2 didnt disappear from the 1st collapse

yeah thats what make me wonder too

[fresh zephyr]

Well I mean they surely can figure it out

[ruby pivot]

do we have a washing machine in d2 universe?

[fresh zephyr]

The people of the city do surely

On neomuna surely

[ruby pivot]

damn, those are some machine that stood the time huh

[fresh zephyr]

My thumbs are cold

[ruby pivot]

imagine if your AC stoof the test of time, saw all the history that had transpired, all the conflicts, all the battles and blood that was shed, and for it to still work

if it doesnt? a few smacks will do the trick probably

[ember storm]

that's just because the actual books existing is a reason to preserve them

whether or not people still actively use paper is irrelevant, the books themselves are still historical artifacts

[empty fern]

We need more gorgon threats (I want more vex content)

[austere bronze]

y

[empty fern]

Has the city always been

This bright?

[empty fern]

Because I want more vex content

[austere bronze]

fair doos

[empty fern]

Also what is the ally fleet suppose to be facing?

[rich wyvern]

“If the sun over Nessus escapes nebula cycle, evac labor after dawn under solstice.” -Cayde-6

He knew

Rest in peace

[vocal imp]

Could someone explain to me what exactly the light and darkness is?

And what there goals are

Is the traveler just a bigass machine like the pyramids?

[dim minnow]

Light is the physical domain while Darkness is the non-physical (conciousness, memory, emotion, etc.)

[vocal imp]

Would the darkness be considered more powerful then? Or are they equal

[dim minnow]

the Witness and Traveler both merely wear the Darkness and Light as cloaks

[dim minnow]

they are both just forces

the Witness wants to reduce the universe down to its Final Shape

[vocal imp]

I thought the traveler was the light itself?

[dim minnow]

things get a bit convoluted at this point

[vocal imp]

So uh what’s the final shape?

[dim minnow]

I'm not even sure the Witness knows

the best description we have of it is that it is what we get when the Universe has been reduced to a point where nothing else can be reduced

[vocal imp]

The witness seems to have a stupid amount of power

[dim minnow]

as for the Traveler, it wants to force complexity to yield new results

it's sort of a complexity vs simplicity argument

[vocal imp]

So basically the traveler wants progress but the darkness wants to keep everything the same?

Or am I stupid

[fiery copper]

Those words work, but not in the context that you said them in

[dim minnow]

think of it as a game always ending in the Final Shape

[fiery copper]

The traveler wants cooperation and complexity. Picture a machine with 50 million parts that does X task.

[dim minnow]

the Traveler does not want the game to keep ending that way, so it adds some new rules

[fiery copper]

The winnower wants simplicity. If the Traveler's machine is a chainsaw, the winnower's is an axe.

[vocal imp]

Were there more travelers before like how there’s so many pyramids?

[dim minnow]

the Winnower (maybe the Witness we aren't certain yet) believes that the game always ending the same is the right way to go

[vocal imp]

Or is it just one ball running everywhere

[fiery copper]

No

[dim minnow]

only one Traveler

anyways, I got to go

got somewhere to be

[fiery copper]

The traveler used to be "more" at one point according to Dreams of Alpha Lupi

[dim minnow]

basically, just read Unveiling

[fiery copper]

But I interpret that as spiritually more, not physically multiple

Yeah read Unveiling

Explains the gardener and winnower's motivations

[vocal imp]

Lore is always so confusing

[fiery copper]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling

Unveiling is written BY the winnower

[vocal imp]

Alrighty I will read it

[fiery copper]

So it's a firsthand, if biased, retelling of accounts.

[chrome fog]

In the loosest terms it’s what the universe ends up as at the end of its life cycle and it reaches heat death. In previous iterations of the “Flower Game” played by the Winnower and Gardener - primitive universes created to determine what the final shape would be - the Vex always came out as the end result, to which the Gardener wanted a change in outcome, the Winnower refused and reduced the Gardener’s form with the First Knife, and the Gardener - now known as the Traveler - fell into this iteration of the game

Winnower wants Final Shape to be one dominant species that proves its superiority and strength over all other existence

Gardener wants a diverse civilization with its different members working to defend each other

[trim grotto]

In other terms, simplicity vs complexity.

[chrome fog]

Now Inspiral, the ship from this season’s vendor, the opening cutscene of this season, and the Final Shape teaser sheds a little bit more light on where the Witness fits into all this, but it’s still highly speculative because of the extremely vague nature of the lore pertaining to the time before the current Destiny universe

[vocal imp]

So is the witness the winnower since the gardener is the traveler?

[trim grotto]

That's been a big debate since WQ launched. We're not sure, and it's split the lore community.

[chrome fog]

There’s been arguments it’s by the Witness - given that it’s through the Artifact on the Moon or something - so it might not be entirely objective

[vocal imp]

I feel like he is by seeing how stupidly powerful he is

[trim grotto]

It. But perhaps, yes. We shall, hopefully, see later this year.

[chrome fog]

Me and some others theorize the Winnower and Gardener were one being and the Witness was a mortal that rose up to seize the First Knife/become the First Knife to strike down this one being, but again it’s highly speculative

In any case it can go either way

[vocal imp]

Can withstand being hit by the traveler’s beam directly and sliced up a couple guardians and their ghosts by using a goofy hand gesture

Oh

[trim grotto]

Only one Ghost, actually.

Reed-7's Ghost

[vocal imp]

Poor ghost

[trim grotto]

The other Guardians did get chopped, but the Ghosts survived. So they rezzed.

Reed, though?

He's gone.

[chrome fog]

That mostly points to the Witness being the First Knife or seizing the First Knife

[vocal imp]

Well, still stupidly strong since he killed a guardian instantly-

[trim grotto]

It

But yes

[vocal imp]

Jhdihwidhiw

I keep forgetting

[chrome fog]

I theorize the Witness wants Final Shape to kill whatever Final Shape ends up being, what with its “No more life, no more death” sentiment and how much of its philosophy is fatally nihilistic

[vocal imp]

So like is the traveler some sort of complex machine or something? There seems to be machinery inside it so

[trim grotto]

That is also generally an unknown
We've seen parts of the shell, but never inside it

[vocal imp]

Also are the light and darkness actually enemies or is it just the people who wield it, since the darkness seemed to help whatever side benefits it

[trim grotto]

But it's a pre-universal concept-made-god, so I imagine it's rather phenominal, whatever it is.

[vocal imp]

Like how it gave us the darkness

[trim grotto]

Light and Dark are simply forces, energies of the universe.

[chrome fog]

Though they aren’t wrong that the Gardener gave us Darkness

[trim grotto]

[chrome fog]

Considering they are both just sides to Paracausality

That’s why I believe the Veil is another piece of the Gardener

[vocal imp]

So like is the traveler the only thingy that can control the light

[chrome fog]

Kinda

[vocal imp]

Or are there other sources

[chrome fog]

Ahamkara can as well, but they’re mischievous bastards that twist your wishes

[vocal imp]

There seemed to be alot of stuff that can control darkness energy like the pyramids

But for the light, only the traveler

[trim grotto]

The Darkness is largely wielded by the Witness, who definitely does not want to help us. It granted us Stasis as an attempt to corrupt us, sway us from the Light. Strand was not part of its plan at all, it seems.

[chrome fog]

Traveler does seem to work off similar basis, being the strongest user of Light and therefore able to dictate its flow

I’d also argue that it’s supplemented by its physical shell being a paracausal relic of Light

Which is why we can still use the Light in spite of the Traveler’s dead state

[vocal imp]

Strand is like controlling the fabric of reality right? Or am I stupid

[chrome fog]

It is, though specifically it is the weird psychic under layer which can affect physical reality

[trim grotto]

We are calling this power "Strand." The threads of the world as it is woven, if the conscious universe could be considered to be a tapestry. Further analysis and data have suggested that the wielder of Strand begins to see, simply put, connections. Between allies, between enemies. It is a force that is always present, but wells to the surface more strongly in certain locations. Perhaps places many people think about, or where many beings have passed by.

The Weave is... it is... a tapestry of conciousness.

Strand is our manipulation of that tapestry, pulling at the threads.

[vocal imp]

Why is lore always so confusing in games

[trim grotto]

Destiny's been around for many years now. And Bungie... like their wild stories.

Play Marathon some time.

Like, OG Marathon. Pre-Halo.

[vocal imp]

It feels like alot of lore been cut off since they removed the old campaigns

[chrome fog]

Don’t get me on about Bionicle (mods I won’t please I’ll be good)

[chrome fog]

For the most part those lore entries are accessible in collections, though you are right some of the lore is gone now

[trim grotto]

Well, yes and no. I never played D1 at all since I've only got a PC. But, not to brag, I've got quite a solid understanding of Destiny's greater universe. We have many, many resources available to us to help our quest.

[vocal imp]

Cayde gonna come back in the final shape and everyone will be like “who dafaq is this idiot”

Poor cayde smh

[chrome fog]

Cayde could potentially be remade through Light and Darkness

His physical form restored through Light and his personality and consciousness restored through Darkness via the purified Nightmares, Memories

[vocal imp]

Oh would he be like our guardian? Wielding both light and dark

[trim grotto]

Well, we're not the only ones to do so.

[vocal imp]

Oh right the robot lady

[chrome fog]

Not sure if he’d be wielding them, but he is certainly recreated

And others

[trim grotto]

Elsie? She's not a Lightbearer.

[vocal imp]

Oh-

[chrome fog]

We were first, but we’re not the only ones

[trim grotto]

She's mortal. As mortal as Exo get, anyway.

[chrome fog]

She’s also stuck in a time loop

[vocal imp]

Who else is there?

Can’t think of anyone

I was gonna say Osiris since he used strand but he lost his ghost

[wind belfry]

Drifter

[vocal imp]

How many war crimes has the guardian committed canonically (this is a joke)

[trim grotto]

Aisha, Drifter, many unnamed Guardians, even Ikora now.

[vocal imp]

I thought there wouldn’t be a lot because of that iron lord dude who is like

Very angry

With darkness

[trim grotto]

Saladin? Only at the beginning.

It's been over two years since then.

[chrome fog]

He’s aight with it, just like our alliance with the Cabal

He’s just an old guy

[vocal imp]

I don’t play much so I’m pretty much still living in the red war

I wanna play but I refuse to download 150 GB in required content after I downloaded 80 GB

[chrome fog]

Beyond Light and Witch Queen get really good, Lightfall is kind of disappointing but the seasons are doing a good job supplementing what we learn in the initial campaign

[vocal imp]

I played both, it was really hard finishing witch queen in the hard difficulty

I want to play lightfall but dlc is too expensive

All dlcs are too expensive but I’m broke now

[chrome fog]

There’s also Ghosts of the Deep dungeon which is neat

It also suggests Oryx is still somewhat alive

[vocal imp]

Uh does it cost money or-

[dawn epoch]

dungeon pass

so yes

[vocal imp]

EVERYTHING COSTS MONEY

AAAAAA

[chrome fog]

Not conscious but passively absorbing the methane and taken energy

[vocal imp]

PSN PLUS FOR MULTIPLAYER AND YOU NEED IT FOR ALL RAIDS, ALL DLCS COST LIKE 50$, DUNGEONS COST MONEY, SKINS COST MONEY

IM LOSING MY SANITY

[trim grotto]

skins? transmog is free

[vocal imp]

I mean like, skin skins

[trim grotto]

unless you're doing EV stuff, which rotates into Bright Dust usually

[vocal imp]

Ornaments

[trim grotto]

yes

that's transmog

[tawdry mauve]

yeah ornaments are also free

transmog

[vocal imp]

Oh

[chrome fog]

Transmog is effectively making other armor sets universal ornaments

[vocal imp]

Still tho I know the game is free but this is ridiculous-

With every dlc it costs like 50$ and it’s impossible to play the game without paying on psn

[chrome fog]

Very unfortunate for that

[trim grotto]

it's... not dissimilar to a bulk purchase subscription

[vocal imp]

Aaaaaaaaarhhghgr

This shifted from lore

[chrome fog]

That’s fine

[vocal imp]

Well I will head out

But you can’t deny that lots of content gets locked behind a paywall!

[trim grotto]

i do not
that is the point, after all

[vocal imp]

Are there even any free campaigns after the red war, warmind and curse of Osiris were removed?

[trim grotto]

No, just the New Light tutorial stuff.

[vocal imp]

;-;

[trim grotto]

Consider F2P to be like a Trial/Demo for the game
Which, to be fair, used to be a straight up purchase game anyway

[vocal imp]

I feel like the game may die soon because of lack of content

For f2p anyway

[chrome fog]

That’s been said many times

Ah

Fair

[vocal imp]

With 50$ per dlc you could get tons of games with way more content

Aaaaaaa

[tawdry mauve]

not really

[chrome fog]

You get the subclass quests and exotics quests, but that’s mostly to persuade players to buy the dlc, as they are still a development studio

[tawdry mauve]

there is an abundance of content if anything

plus the new light stuff was the case for the past 2 years

and the game is only growing

so

[chrome fog]

There’s also the seasonal activities you can still do for free

[vocal imp]

Well, I meant for f2p-

[tawdry mauve]

well yeah

[vocal imp]

Nearly no content for f2p players

[chrome fog]

Perfectly understand the struggle

[tawdry mauve]

its been like that for 2 years

and nothing happened

so

[trim grotto]

there's two raids and a dungeon
plus another f2p raid coming

[tawdry mauve]

would you rather pay for the same privilege

lol

[vocal imp]

It’s just unfair for broke people like me

[vocal imp]

Woww that’s enough content to last me a year!

Well I will head out

[tawdry mauve]

gaming is a prilivege

[vocal imp]

Wym?

[tawdry mauve]

i mean what i said

gaming is a prilivege

[vocal imp]

You see I have half a braincell and don’t quite understand what that means

[trim grotto]

he means you have to pay to play, generally speaking

[vocal imp]

Yes I know the game is free and all and bungie needs to make money somehow but there’s no game that locks this much content behind a paywall

[tawdry mauve]

beggars also cant be choosers

lol

like you cant enjoy the prilivege of the game being free and then complain about all the stuff you dont get for free

as i said

gaming is a privilege

you pay for it

one way or another

[trim grotto]

they said they're heading off Kuzmo
we can leave the topic lie

[vocal imp]

I pay for it, yes
But don’t you think destiny overdoes it?

[tawdry mauve]

Not at all

100 bucks for a years worth of content is a steal

but yes

best end this

or move it to #☀️off-topic-discussion

[chrome fog]

What is Sparky gonna ask?

[tender cove]

I'm looking up things as I am typing, it's about the final shape.

[trim grotto]

As in the concept or the expansion

[chrome fog]

For concept we mostly only have Unveiling as a major source, but we can further infer from other sources

[trim grotto]

We can definitely use more than Unveiling

It's simply an end-state of the universe

[tender cove]

What is this The Final Shape the Witness is trying to bring about? Is it an existence without beings in it to suffer (enough life and death) or a complete state of non-existence without time, space and matter? The latter inherently causes the former as well.

[tender cove]

It's the concept. And I've been reading Unveiling.

[trim grotto]

The Witness's Final Shape is somewhat unclear, though it seems to be a state without life. But the Final Shape itself is simply an end-state of the universe, which differs by that enacting it.

The Vex, for example, have one known as Convergence.

But the Vex? The Vex seek neither Light nor Darkness. They seek Convergence, the reduction of all life to its simplest, most meaningless form. An entelechy of zeros and ones.

"Evil" is a word for sentimentalists and fools. But, in the ontology of the sentimental, the Vex are more deserving of the term than the Hive.

Given a choice between Darkness and Convergence, I would choose Darkness. It is a logical choice.```

[empty fern]

I like vex final shape

[fiery copper]

The vex final shape is More Vex

When every single molecule of the universe has been infected and perfected, the vex succeed. What they do then, I have no idea. Does the universe continue after the final shape has been achieved? Is it like a Civilization match where the world immediately comes to an end once someone wins?

[chrome fog]

It just ends with heat death, though that didn’t stop them from entering the current universe

[fiery copper]

I like to think that once they have ensured that the universe is Only Vex, they turn into nerds and learn literally everything about anything. Past, present, future, all of it will be known.

Heat death apparently isn't what scientists think is going to happen anymore

With the constant, accelerating expansion of the universe, it will end up as infinite tiny instances of matter, spread across an infinite space.

[tender cove]

What I guess is that the Witness is a philosophical pessimist as having witnessed the atrocities of life in different civilizations. To prevent the suffering, he must also prevent life hence the "Enough death, enough life." philosophy.

The actual The Final Shape could be merely a meaningless singularity in which nothing resembling life could come out of. So for all practical purposes I would say the two interpretations of The Final Shape are the same.

[fiery copper]

Either that or whatever is accelerating us is something horrifying and we all get eaten by a cosmic elder god

[empty fern]

Meh

[fiery copper]

I know which one I'm hoping for, Earth becoming lunch for cthulhu sounds badass

"Enough death, enough life"

The Witness is a lich and wants to resurrect the universe as undead

We were wrong the whole time

It's not a druid

[chrome fog]

I’d say you’re on the dot

[fiery copper]

It's a CR30 Arch-Lich

[chrome fog]

If Waltz were here

Or actually

VintageNuke

[tender cove]

The Final Shape will be an unstable state and eventually burst after a while. Then we will get D2's 2025 expansion.

"Beyond The Final Shape"

[empty fern]

“Who framed roger rabbit”

[fiery copper]

"Halo 7"

[chrome fog]

I’m more of the idea it’s gonna be a weird memory world where all the old places are merged in a weird dreamland way, seeing the name of the season’s ship that shows us what happened to Joxer - Akashic Revelation

[hollow drum]

did the drifter encounter creature that could naturally suppress the light somehow or did he just come across a whole bunch of darkness things

[chrome fog]

Could be both

We don’t really know what those creatures were

[hollow drum]

i think natural light suppressants could be a pretty cool implication

[limpid flower]

would have no affect on our darkness using asses 😎

[chrome fog]

Chronologically that entry takes place back in Red War, in which Drifter and a couple others got stranded on Europa. Drifter did use Darkness to escape, but it was only after his ghost suggested they use pieces of the others’ ghosts to jury rig it

So you are right

[chrome fog]

This process also left his ghost mute and with a red eye afterwards

And Lightfall shows we can still kick ass without abilities or supers, it’s just really hard

There has been no elaboration in what those creatures were however

[limpid flower]

he talked to sloane about it this week a bit too

in their therapy session

but didn’t say much apart from him not having a choice but to modify his ghost and that his team was killed due to their disability to use the light bc of those creatures

[chrome fog]

That’s about it yeah

[dim minnow]

Some of them froze to death, but the rest were killed by him. He also implies that he hunted down their ghosts and used the parts to modify his own.

[limpid flower]

ah

damn

that’s fucked

[dim minnow]

Some additional context too

Using the ghosts' parts to modify his own ghost was not his idea, it was his ghosts idea

Drifter recounting the ligh-suppressing creatures was him referencing some lore tabs from old Gambit items

I don't remember which though

Maybe some of the Ancient Apocalypse or Gambit Prime sets

[limpid flower]

ah ok

[empty fern]

Dova

Dova please

People say this works lorewise, now explain the lore

[devout nimbus]

#bungie-tweets

Is saint-14 a dad?

[empty fern]

The dad we need

Or he/osiris adopted some random space baby

[chrome fog]

No mention of said hypothetical baby so no not at the moment

Well I guess the pigeons and The Colonel

[limpid flower]

saint 14 is a daddy obviously

that’s what they mean

[ember storm]

what is there to be confused about

it’s a Titan, that’s all the explanation you need

[empty fern]

Bruh

[torpid flint]

Titan make lore work

[empty fern]

Yes

We just break your puny logic and punch in the next dimension

[smoky rose]

He's a father figure

Not a father himself

[fiery copper]

Hes daddy that's for sure

[fiery copper]

FUCK YOU ALREADY MADE THAT JOKE

[torpid flint]

Ha

Should have read

[limpid flower]

loser LOL

[fiery copper]

[fiery copper]

I'm illiterate sorry

And blind

My braille phone doesn't update fast enough

[limpid flower]

lol

[torpid flint]

lol

[safe galleon]

does Saint take care of the colonel?? 😭

[safe galleon]

i thiiink they're referring to how the titan is wearing insurmountable skullfort as a sunbreaker???

[chrome fog]

Yes, he holds him sometimes when you approach his ship

He also has a bunch of voice lines and lore entries where he talks about taking care of him

[safe galleon]

oh thats pretty sweet

(very wholesome)

[ember storm]

that's what i'm referring to

it's a titan

you shouldn't be expecting the highest cognitive functionality

[safe galleon]

ah

[ember storm]

if you look at a titan and have to ask why they're being stupid

then you don't know titans

[safe galleon]

hey man, titans arent that stupid

we're just too busy being cool to focus all our efforts on brainpower

[chrome fog]

The ones who do use brain power are weighted by some sort of somberness

Also this is the same Bungie that didn’t make the exotic armor quests for Hunters or Titans element themed like they did Warlocks

[torpid flint]

Warlocks smort

[chrome fog]

That’s why I made mine a jock-nerd who got pissed her research wasn’t going anywhere and decided to do combat trials with Cabal

[torpid flint]

Jock nerds are scary

[fiery copper]

Aren't the titan exotics just 3 different flavors of "hehe i punch" ?

[safe galleon]

i mean look at the sentinel description. the guy in that description sounds tortured

[pine lion]

I think this is lore.
I gave sloan the egregore coral, and Ahsa spoke in her place these very words
“A place, Shrouded in Darkness, Two Halves of a Whole, Long Divided, A schism”

What does this meann

I know this is lore somehow

Lore keepers, what does this mean

What are these two halves? Im thinking Light and Dark

But what is that place, shrouded in darkness….the Dreaming city? I mean its shrouded in Blight..which is darkness i think

[lyric bough]

Eager edge reference 🤯

[mild wagon]

"The Immortal" is gendered female in certain translations (due to how languages work), this got me thinking, who is this "Immortal" that the gun is named after?

[tawdry mauve]

its not named after anyone

[analog torrent]

it's gendered female because some languages gender random shit

anyway I think it's male in french

[tawdry mauve]

le immortale

[lyric bough]

Le roi immortel (immortal king)
La reine immortelle (immortal queen)
It changes depending on context. If it says L'immortel in game its male and vice versa

[outer dragon]

What is that from?

[iron bramble]

deadass should bring back all the hive gods

cuz they all technically could come back

[outer dragon]

This is the best Titan lore
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/warriors-steed

Also why I am pissed they keep nerfing Titan Melee builds. Clearly the lore team sees Titans as being the physical class but the sandbox team doesn't care.

[fiery copper]

SYNTHO GLAIVE BUILDS WERENT EVEN BROKEN THEY WERE JUST SILLY

ITS LIKE NERFING VESPER OF RADIUS BECAUSE YOU COULD ONESHOT ONE DUDE WITH FROSTPULSE EVERY 60 SECONDS OH WAJT THEY DID THAT TOO

[iron bramble]

are tormentors the same race as rhulk?

[chrome fog]

Of course it’s lore because it the literal story

[chrome fog]

There’s no clear answer, but most likely talking about the Gardener and Winnower maybe

[pine lion]

Whos the gardener and the winnower?

If thats part of lightfall then idk cuz

I dont own the dlc yet

[fiery copper]

No

They seem to be related to nezzy

Rhulk absolutely not

[chrome fog]

Created from Nezarec’s genetic material; not explicitly stated, but the Witness probably enlisted Calus’ clone tech to create them, seeing as Calus calls them a collaborative result from them both

[fiery copper]

How exactly they're related, we dont know for sure. Personally I THEORIZE that tormentors are Cabal clones of whatever the Witness had left of nezzy

[chrome fog]

As for why he looks like Rhulk, it’s most likely coincidence

[fiery copper]

They don't even look like rhulk they're just red and big

[iron bramble]

ah

[chrome fog]

Unveiling lore book; was released during Season of Arrivals, should be in your collections

[fiery copper]

Rhulk is built like his glaive, tormentors are built like Machamp

[iron bramble]

but nez in RON is different than when he led the black fleet

[chrome fog]

I think I still have my Unveiling summary

[fiery copper]

They just happen to both be red, they're even different shades too

[fiery copper]

READ UNVEILING, IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LOREBOOK IN ALL OF DESTINY

[chrome fog]

His lore suggests he no longer has one singular physical vessel, and the one we fight was simply his current one

[fiery copper]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling

[chrome fog]

Yes, that

Hold up

[fiery copper]

Don't summarize it

It deserves to be experienced firsthand

It's so good

It's up there with BoS and Forsaken Prince to me

[chrome fog]

Trust me, they always come back asking wtf they read

[pine lion]

Bet, btw got new words from asha

[chrome fog]

That was. The longest month of my life

[pine lion]

Ahsa

[chrome fog]

It is a good read though

[pine lion]

“Wordless Betrayal, Fleeing God.”

[fiery copper]

Do it after then

[pine lion]

Im guessing this talks about the traveler

[pine lion]

.

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[fiery copper]

Fleeing god yeah

Wordless betrayal idk

[chrome fog]

We’ve heard as much before

[pine lion]

It doesn’t speak

Cuz the speaker died

[fiery copper]

May be referring to the traveler "cheating" in the Wager?

[pine lion]

Or did the speaker interpret it

[chrome fog]

Speaker never really spoke for the Traveler

[pine lion]

Interpreted

[chrome fog]

Kind of

[pine lion]

Wager?

[chrome fog]

Barely

[chrome fog]

Read Unveiling

[fiery copper]

Unveiling also talks about the Wager, so GO READ IT RUGHT FUCKING NOW

[pine lion]

Yes, will do.

[chrome fog]

The same thing, but calm

[fiery copper]

I will not respond to any questions until you get back

[chrome fog]

Read it it’s good

[fiery copper]

:p

[pine lion]

Actually ima read it to bed tonight bro these lore books are so good you could read em to kids to bed

Ong

[chrome fog]

Plus yes, we can put that line to the Traveler as she has been described as such by the Eliksni and others, though that’s most likely not its intent

I’m going to make a revamp of my old summary

Once I’ve read it again

Cause I’m eepy

And on the road

[fiery copper]

"Mommy, can you read the one about Xivu Arath tearing Sloane's skin off?"

[torpid flint]

Read Clovis’s logbook to a child

[chrome fog]

Liking this new generation of lorechat nerds

[dim minnow]

hmmm

theory time, Mara knows stuff about the Traveler portal we don't

[reef salmon]

does saint have a son

[dim minnow]

specifically, she knows people will be "brought back from the dead"

kind of like Cayde

[dim minnow]

Crow

[reef salmon]

[dim minnow]

"Yes." Petra has known several of them as Corsairs under her command. They had bled by her orders. Some were friends. Yet here she stands, gazing out to sea from her widow's walk.

Mara gently brushes her cheek. "Bestill your mind, Petra. I feel them calling. As I returned to you, so shall they."```

along with the Sleepless lore tab and Sjur Eido dialogue suggesting that she may return

[torpid flint]

Interesting

[torpid flint]

You wonder if Mara was able to accomplish something similar with the pyramids

doesn’t make sense otherwise

[dim minnow]

I wonder if Mara knows that Cayde coming back in TFS is possible

[torpid flint]

How would she know, no one has gotten this far

Could she just be theorizing about the portal?

[dim minnow]

this stuff is before Lightfall

keep in mind that Mara was in the know about Unveiling and the Witness long before us

so she very well could be in the know about what is through the portal

[torpid flint]

I wonder if Cayde “coming back” could be caused by the witness’s influence

Could the portal contain parts of the traveler that have been unknowingly infected by darkness similar to darkness zones?

Doesn’t make sense that the Light would bring back Cayde in the same form

I don’t believe that Cayde is in the traveler, I think it’s more an illusion

[slim perch]

is vex mytho the first/only vex weapon that is solar?

wait nevermind, hobgoblins exist

[dim minnow]

line rifles

slap rifles

[torpid flint]

@dim minnow what’s that guardian real shit gif you have?

The black and white screen and spooky ass music

[dim minnow]

it's the Prowler theme from Into the Spiderverse

[torpid flint]

Never realized how scary that theme actually is damn

[fiery copper]

YO IS THAT WHAT IT IS

[dim minnow]

yeah

[fiery copper]

IVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND THE ORIGINS OF THAT BWAAUUUUHHH NOISE FOR MONTHS

[dim minnow]

well you're welcome

[fiery copper]

Thank you Mr. Dah

Much appreciate

[torpid flint]

Shame the prowler is dead

(I’m aware of the OTHER)

Well

“Other”

[dim minnow]

what did you need the video for anyway?

[torpid flint]

Hobgoblins scary

[torpid flint]

Funny meme

[dim minnow]

you're gonna edit it into a meme?

[torpid flint]

Nah I’m just gonna use it as a reaction for now

Tho that does give me an idea

[real ingot]

I wake up and people are talking about Saint being a father what happened

wait it's fathers day isn't it

[dim minnow]

yes

but I'm pretty sure Bungie called him more of a "father figure"

[slim mulch]

tbf a fair few of the vanguard got that father figure kinda thing goin with them dont they

[chrome fog]

I think it’s the Garden, which itself functions like the Akashic Records that referenced in the ship

[chrome fog]

If you want the sequel, Miguel’s theme and Spot Holes 2 on the soundtrack are good picks

[chrome fog]

This supported by how Joxer got to see his past and future when entering the portal as well as the way Cayde is glowing like a Memory instead of his mouth glowing yellow

This is also the definition of Akashic Records

And the name of the ship
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/akashic-revelation

[torpid flint]

Miguel’s theme is real shit

[chrome fog]

I’m a Spot Holes 2 kind of guy

[torpid flint]

Spot Holes 2 is good

Honestly they wrote him so well

[chrome fog]

Good film

[torpid flint]

especially for a random villain

yup

Destiny Film when

[chrome fog]

You play it

Uhhhh oh yeah

Got some screenshots for a theory on how the Veil and the Traveler relate to each other or smth

Gonna have to review it after posting

[torpid flint]

Send

[chrome fog]

Yeah it was

Neato

[torpid flint]

I remember these screenshots

[dim minnow]

is it related to the Veil being the Winnower?

because if so, I said that first

[chrome fog]

Veil being another part of the Gardener

[dim minnow]

huh

[torpid flint]

Isn’t the veil confirmed to be connected to the light?

[chrome fog]

To the Darkness

Which throws people off, but then you have to remember the Gardener suggested Paracausality in general, which includes Darkness with the Light

And Bau from the Cryptarchy has gone into how both the Winnower and Gardener sometimes do each other’s jobs (need to look back at those citations, which is gonna be hard with the channel being reset)

Plus as Dova has helped me realize multiple times, Darkness is not simply reductive in nature, it is just the manipulation of reality through parallel means

With a major focus on the metaphysical

The theory goes that the Veil is one piece of the Gardener, and with the recent Veil Containment lore tabs it has a consciousness of its own

[dim minnow]

huh?

oh right, the whole difference doesn't matter thing

[chrome fog]

Yeppers

[tawdry mauve]

watch us finally get an origin for the witness and the traveller but the veil still remains a mystery

bungie could pull the funniest joke ever

[chrome fog]

When reduced by the First Knife, the Gardener was changed from some ontological principle into a physical being; there are no rules that come with this transformation, so who can say the Veil isn’t still a piece of the Gardener?

“But hey, they why is the Traveler’s actions attributed to the Gardener? Would that make the Traveler the Gardener?” Well as those screenshots elaborate, cutting pieces off of someone doesn’t magically get rid of those other pieces (by conventional logic)

What if the Traveler is just the central/main piece of the Gardener?

This ties a bit further into the Primordial Light and Darkness that the Witness took from the Veil and the Traveler, in that this could have been the pieces of the Gardener’s consciousness housed within the physical shells of the Traveler and the Veil respectively

It works with how the only way we can access the Light even though the Traveler is quote-unquote “dead” if it’s physical shell is still providing the Light

And the Veil Containment journal entries help support this I think

First hearing of them is concerning because it seems like Maya Sundaresh is going through a similar thing as Clovis with “Salvation”, but what if this time it’s literal

That the Veil is giving them blessings with no strings attached

It would work well with the narrative conventions of Destiny, with repeat events being contrasted to each other

I say like that makes sense

That’s my lore rant for now, I should apply for that Consensus role

[fiery copper]

"No strings attached" uh huh sure I buy that at face value

Let's build our last bastion of humanity on top of it

[chrome fog]

We already did that with Clovis, which is why the twist this time is that no, nothing went wrong with the Veil it’s just unfortunate timing and somewhat human incompetency

And we know there’s incompetency within Neomuna’s governing structure with that lore tab of each generation of guards guarding a bench just because one commander wanted them to keep people from sitting on it while the paint was wet

Freak a Nature would argue there’s something conspiratorial going on - which that can be - but I believe a lot of the Neomunan government’s secrecy is for its own safety

[real ingot]

less conspiracy more incompetency

[chrome fog]

I also think it’s because they don’t have guardians around that research is generally slow; yes, humans have ~300 year long life spans, but Risen can go for at least a millennia or at least a handful more centuries

Same reason why research is super slow now: simply takes too long to check and double check and quintuple check across many years past the original researchers’ lives

[chrome fog]

This entry is actually surprising great at illustrating that struggle, as they have to go through several avenues of information to even find out why guards were positioned near that bench

Which wouldn’t have to happen with an immortal primary source

[real ingot]

oh what the fuck you're blue now

[slim mulch]

Wait what

[chrome fog]

OooOOOoo

[slim mulch]

OH NO THEYRE BLUE

[chrome fog]

Wish I was Orange but that’s neither here nor there

[slim mulch]

Tbf blue is a pretty cool color

[chrome fog]

That’s just for being a good boi and following the rules

Orange is for being a true lore nerd

[slim mulch]

I see

Makes sense then

Lol

Im sure you'l get it one dau

Is there a quiz or smth for orange

[chrome fog]

Just apply for it with a ticket

[slim mulch]

Like a 50 minute exam

[dim minnow]

I think you have to be nominated for orange

[slim mulch]

Nah but imagine a 50 min lore exam

[chrome fog]

Be a good boy for 6 months, no rule breaks, and contribute heavily to the lore

[dim minnow]

orange is not exclusive to lore

[chrome fog]

😔

[dim minnow]

me and Mael are probably the only guys who got here for lore knowledge

even then, I know Mael did some stuff

[chrome fog]

Dang it

[slim mulch]

It okay
Im sure you can get it eventually

From my lurking, you seem to be quite knowledgeable

And with a name like consensus, im sure it can be applied in that case

[slim perch]

since ghosts sort of, manufacture ammo for you

if the mechanisms of vex mytho are unknown, how does the ghost sort of figure out the ammo?

[chrome fog]

Mmm there’s something in the grimoire cards that probably would’ve gone into detail about that, but I didn’t play D1

[dim minnow]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into...

[fiery copper]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

[dim minnow]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

[slim elk]

https://tenor.com/view/doctor-strange-dr-strange-time-stone-infinity-stones-time-loop-gif-15509082

[chrome fog]

Time loops are quite easy to get out of

[fiery copper]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

[chrome fog]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

[analog torrent]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

[slim perch]

okay but

ammo

[peak coral]

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into

a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into.

[chrome fog]

Gonna ruin the fun; mythoclass does a paradox to keep using the same ammo

As to what the ammo is, ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torpid flint]

It’s the MILK

[chrome fog]

That would kill the Vex themselves

[torpid flint]

Yes when you don’t repeat the same actions

[chrome fog]

Maybe

[torpid flint]

Good

A soul for a soul

[raven glen]

Wats the lore on shaxx tbh been curious on his past have we heard about his past life or why he kinda retired or why we never see his helmet off i feel like he got forgotten i hope we hear more of him

[torpid flint]

Well we have the famous

Dreaming City Lore card

Nothing can top that

[real ingot]

He's a Warlord

killed Felwinter

many times

still technically a Warlord

Told the Vanguard attacking Crota's brood was a bad idea

was right

[chrome fog]

He is a former warlord who followed the Iron Lords in their campaign to clean up the wastelands that was Earth after the Collapse. He doesn’t take off his helmet for supposedly personal reasons and jokingly it has been suggested he is Shakespeare resurrected as a Guardian

Warlords during the Dark Ages were despotic rulers that basically exploited the mortals they “protected”

[chrome fog]

As for this, they were both in grieving of Sjur Eido’s supposed death

On first read it seems like they did a rule 3 breaking activity, but it was more Mara wanting to know someone else that was close to Sjur Eido

Shaxx declined, but offered to read Tempest like he did with Eido

[torpid flint]

I know, it’s just more funny to imagine the first read as true

[chrome fog]

[torpid flint]

Even tho yes, he did just seem to be trying to avoid her questions

[dim minnow]

I think the book thing was meant to refer to how Shaxx called Sjur a "tempest" when he first met her

unless there was something in the WQ CE I for got about

[torpid flint]

Someone seems to be more…rule abiding now… hmmm

anyway

is there any new Vex lore this season?

[chrome fog]

What do you mean I’ve always been a rule abiding boi

[dim minnow]

not even a Vex season man

[torpid flint]

Don’t worry, you’ll have it for 2 days cause didn’t read rules with a microscope

Jk

[dim minnow]

well

I mean, we are getting the Veil logs

[torpid flint]

Yeah those

[dim minnow]

let's see, Vex hid Neomuna, Veil stops Vex

[torpid flint]

pretty smart on the Vex’s part

Well

They’re literally the smartest thing to exist, they just can’t calculate paracausality

“Ohh the taken are here? Just invite the damn guardians”

[real ingot]

glad they confirmed that

I remember it being one of the big theories we had when Vex were revealed to be on Neptune

[dim minnow]

I was thinking that Savathun terraformed Neptune a bit

well, I recall it saying somewhere that Neptune was terraformed in some way

[real ingot]

I believe in a log

there was stuff about Terraforming

I can guarantee that

[dim minnow]

the Traveler certainly wasn't the one who did that

[real ingot]

Likely isn't the Vex either

[dim minnow]

Either Savathun or the Veil

[real ingot]

Considering the way Neptune looks on the destinations screen

Veil

[dim minnow]

oh?

[real ingot]

The way it looks?

Yeah Neptune don't have that purple stuff

at least I can't recall it

Seems to be an energy of sorts

which fits the veil

[pine lion]

What would u say is the most important lore book about the Dreaming City and its secrets

[chrome fog]

Marasenna

Which itself is about Mara’s origins

And a bit about how she went about creating the Dreaming City

[grand jungle]

so we hv killed crow right?

[dim minnow]

there is also an entire lore book dedicated to the city itself

called "The Dreaming City"

[dim minnow]

no

we killed Uldren though

who would later be rezzed as Crow

[grand jungle]

so shouldvnt we kill crow

[real ingot]

why would we kill him

[dim minnow]

Crow =/= Uldren

[chrome fog]

Risen are not the same as who they were before resurrection

They can be very similar, but they hold none of the same memories, the same experiences as those before them

And if you try to argue Crow’s case with what happened at the end of Season of the Lost, I’d like you to imagine this: your brain is implanted with the memories of your father, do you suddenly become your own father?

Obvious answer is no you do not, and neither does Crow suddenly become Uldren

Crow has proven himself to be a valuable member of the Vanguard, to the point of probably taking up the position of Hunter Vanguard himself

He has also shown during Season of the Haunted that he despises Uldren’s actions, though he has learned view his past life as a way to learn from Uldren’s mistakes

So regardless, no we should not kill Crow

Because Crow is not Uldren

[smoky rose]

Not the same argument though

Because you do not inhabit your father's body

If you have dementia and forget who you are, and then you are reminded of that by your nurse or family, does that make you a different person, even though you regain the memories and have all the same mannerisms

You could argue no

I don't think Crow distances himself by saying "nah different person not my fault" anymore

[chrome fog]

Your own consciousness is housed in your body and you gain the memories of your father, if that’s not clear enough

[smoky rose]

Congrats on bloo btw

Its fundamentally different though

[chrome fog]

Why thank you

[smoky rose]

You are in the same body, you act the same way

The only difference is you don't have your memories

What happens when you get them back

Crow is even established to handle a weapon the exact same way as uldren did

[chrome fog]

Well, in regards to who you mentally become, gaining your father’s memories does not make you your father but in your body

[empty fern]

New light cutscene

[sick yew]

Skullfort sunbreaker my beloved

[empty fern]

Cursed

Also why tf you awake at 4am

[empty fern]

Who is ralniks “blood of Kells” and why is he just sitting in the moon ketch?

Oh he’s for jealousy essence

[empty fern]

So after the tower was attacked, we just moved to the right of it in this little area?

[torpid flint]

Slide to the left, slide to the right

[devout nimbus]

Aren't there multiple towers

Why didn't we just move to another one

[sick yew]

I mean "the tower" is only one which was the place in d1