Watcher server challenges

[sour shadow]

Challenges

hello everyone

watch it

[halcyon tapir]

Absolute goat I've been waiting for this

[pure herald]

It's real

Okay okay so

Ice lizards.

I think taming one would be an awesome challenge

[vagrant reef]

surely you could make it laser something

[pure herald]

Yeaa

[halcyon tapir]

Kinda simple as far as challenges go

[pure herald]

what could we laser

[vagrant reef]

i never saw them use it on other creatures when they weren't tamed but maybe the laser stuff to protect you.

[halcyon tapir]

Blizard gladiator is always an option, they're way harder and more interesting to fight than reds

[pure herald]

laser another ice lizard to death

[pure herald]

I suppose

[halcyon tapir]

Also, unrelated but the entire u turn route is available in corrupted SU too

[pure herald]

oh no

[halcyon tapir]

As far as fully new challenge ideas tho I haven't thought of much lmao

[pure herald]

u-turned

[halcyon tapir]

Id like one to do with loaches

[vagrant reef]

bringing the toys to prince was pretty fun for a little easy challenge.

[halcyon tapir]

Ohh yeah I like that too

Sounds very fun

[pure herald]

I see the potential

[sour shadow]

can't wait for someone to finish the game without hibernating 👉 👈

[vagrant reef]

infinite cycle time

that would take so long thoe

[sour shadow]

infinite corrupted regions and outer rim

[pure herald]

Infinite rift travel stamina

[halcyon tapir]

You'd have to do rot ending

Tho idk if the rot spreads if you don't sleep?

[pure herald]

Yeah idk

Either seem impossible

[vagrant reef]

also don't you get like hunter sickness when you jump too many times? or was i just poisoned when that happened.

[pure herald]

That's what I'm saying

[halcyon tapir]

The other ending is impossible since you lose the ability to go invisible after enough warps

[pure herald]

You can't teleport too much without hibernating

[halcyon tapir]

No you can teleport infinitely, no effect on movement

[pure herald]

I mean you can I just mean like

[halcyon tapir]

You get tired initially but it goes back to normal, you were probably just poisoned natas

[pure herald]

consequences

idk maybe it's doable

[halcyon tapir]

But it does remove your ability to turn invisible, and you need that to meet the final echo

Cycle 1 would be possible tho

[pure herald]

hm

[halcyon tapir]

And if rot spreads without sleeping rot ending would be too

[pure herald]

Wouldn't it get reset per echo meetup

or do you have to sleep anyway to get it back

[halcyon tapir]

I believe since they also warp you it might not, but it also sets your spawn for some of them, so you might get your stuff back anyway

[pure herald]

Yeah that's what I was thinking

[halcyon tapir]

Plus you can just like, die I guess, that wouldn't remove your echo progress

[pure herald]

oh yea

I suppose it might just be doable then

[halcyon tapir]

Probably

Does anyone know if warping increases the cycle count? I'm pretty sure it does

[pure herald]

Would have to check

From eastmost point in outer rim to the upper throne room in one cycle

okay that one's kinda silly

oaoaoaoaoa

[vagrant reef]

desert bus challenge lol

[halcyon tapir]

I mean, technically you could do every region in one cycle right?

No other characters can do that, seems like a fun idea for routing

Hard for console verification tho

[clear gazelle]

watcher speedrun via vulture warp out of facility roots

[vagrant reef]

no way the outer expanse gate isn't all rotted up

[clear gazelle]

you enter via outskirts

i looked and theres no rot

[vagrant reef]

is there an interactive map out for the watcher yet?

[clear gazelle]

there is its got a lot of errors though currently

its pinned in watcher spoilers channels

[halcyon tapir]

It's fully possible, I've already figured out the routing

[hollow zealot]

U-Turn 🔥🔥🔥

[vagrant reef]

insane

[ember skiff]

Rain world

[halcyon tapir]

It requires an eel from chimney since no precycles, and the rest is just normal eel route which sucks

But it is possible

[clear gazelle]

there could be a lot of fun lineage challenges in watcher some regions you can lineage 5 red centipedes in it alone

[halcyon tapir]

It's really sad that we can't get creatures out of the watcher regions tho cos frogs work the same as leeches for the water block

[clear gazelle]

i really love how much red centi lineages there are

[vagrant reef]

conservationist 2

[clear gazelle]

[vagrant reef]

all red centipeeds

[clear gazelle]

you can also lineage rotted lizards in cold storage

i assume the reasoning because of station annex

[halcyon tapir]

How many Blizard lineages are there?

[clear gazelle]

i mean

[pure herald]

woah

[halcyon tapir]

I think blizards and loaches are the big ones I want to see challenges based around

[pure herald]

rotted red

[clear gazelle]

from what i remember the only blizard lineages are in aether ridge but thats cool cuz aether doesnt have any blizards normally

[ember skiff]

Thats the first thing I thought about when I saw SU lmao

[vagrant reef]

is that what these whack lineages are.

[clear gazelle]

yea lol

[ember skiff]

Lmao

[halcyon tapir]

Does it not? I swear I've seen some there

[clear gazelle]

maybe you saw some in the five hundred regions seperated from aether

imma double check

[hollow zealot]

Cross the two locust sections without Spore Puffs or the help of lizards

[halcyon tapir]

Probably. I assumed since surface is a future version of aether it'd be similar in spawns

[lean flicker]

They spawn in Surface, which is the bottom left of OG Aether

in a new area exclusive of Watcher on the right side

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I've spent quite a bit of time there fighting em

[ocean comet]

Howdy chat

[halcyon tapir]

I like blizards a lot

[clear gazelle]

yea i checked no natural ones in aether ridge

[lean flicker]

For people asking about "no shelterin" type challenges, the main obstacle is that eventually most rifts would send you to rot regions

[clear gazelle]

only from lineaging

[lean flicker]

since shelter is what keep rifts stable (even Echoes seem to increas your corruption levels)

[clear gazelle]

i think a challenge involving the new scavs boomerang weapons could be cool

they are funky

[vagrant reef]

we need a way to move around the zappy crabs so we can throw one into that rotted shelter

[ocean comet]

Watcher U-turn
Watcher U-turn
Watcher U-turn

[halcyon tapir]

Regular spawned rifts are set in there locations right? They don't send you to rot regions as far as I know

[lean flicker]

They do if you rift a lot

Ex: Go back and forth

[hollow zealot]

Maybe do Inv u-turn first smh

[halcyon tapir]

Watcher u turn is a lot worse

[clear gazelle]

watcher challenge: survive rotted garbage wastes (has rotted red lizards, red centipede, king vultures, mother long legs, proto rot and rotted loaches)

[ocean comet]

The main problem with travelling a lot is that the exact amount of rifts before rotten regions depends on your current karma. This combined with infection spreading means you want to both use a save file which has max karma (takes a long time) and lacks much infection spread (a potential cause of resets)

[halcyon tapir]

Are there any elite scavs in watcher?

[ocean comet]

afaik no

[lean flicker]

Infection spread is easy

[clear gazelle]

i dont think so

[lean flicker]

just get out of the 1st area and never return there

[ocean comet]

Random travels can take you to Outer Rim, which forces spread.

[lean flicker]

and make sure to not get send to corrupted areas

[lean flicker]

I haven't gotten to OR without wanting to (no karma flower)

[ocean comet]

I have

[lean flicker]

and only 1 corrupted vanilla after teleporting a few times to see what would happen

[lean flicker]

How many times?

[ocean comet]

Once. Still a chance.
Also, there is one region that is guaranteed to be infected and a random target, aka the region you teleport to from vanilla map from third echo

[halcyon tapir]

Outer rim is a very common failwarp location

[lean flicker]

2 avoid areas is still good

[ocean comet]

2 areas you cannot avoid truly, since you can be forced into both by pure random chance

[lean flicker]

Failwarps are usually because the player doesn't take precautions (no karma flower or 3+ warps in a cycle)

[hollow zealot]

Honestly, doesn't seem like that

There's even one easier jump and I can't find any annoying rot on the interactive map

Inv has precycle rain and a lot of reds, cyans and even red centipedes...

[ocean comet]

Both of these can be a random destination without failwarps tho

[lean flicker]

And 1 lizard can lineage into a red by pure chance if you get 2 lineages %

[halcyon tapir]

Most annoying part is probably all the rattlers

[lean flicker]

I'm saying that getting unlucky a few times and makeing the game a bit harder is not new

Getting K10 without corrupting too much once you learn echos locations is not hard

and if you get teleported to a corrupted region you can just die and find another portal that doesn't teleport you there

[clear gazelle]

thats a lot of prep though for a challenge

its why saint challenges involving max karma or rubicon werent popular

[ocean comet]

Random lineage into red is something you can still truly control, a double lineage doesn't happen unless you do extremely specific unintended steps

[halcyon tapir]

That's the issue with watcher tbh. Too many challenges require significant amounts of set up

[ocean comet]

Not a RNG roll on a core mechanic check

[lean flicker]

you can kill 2 random spiders in sub when doing stuff and next time you are arround that get chomped by a red lizard

if you get send to a rot area, die before sheltering and you are out with 0 new corruption

[ocean comet]

This cannot happen unless you doublespawn, and why doublespawn SB

[lean flicker]

and that is if you get super unlucky and get teleported there without creating your own portals

[clear gazelle]

fun fact in shrouded coast theres a white lizard with a guranteed chance to lineage into a red (and no its not the naturally spawning red thats already there)

[lean flicker]

While what Moon says is partially true (idealy most challenges would require K10, not too many rot regions and idealy max lizard + scav rep). Once you get one savefile you could probably do a few challenges

[halcyon tapir]

Do you have a clip of that btw? I haven't seen that happen to anyone

[clear gazelle]

watcher challenges would be very unfair for console players then if savefiles are to be relied on

[lean flicker]

I haven't been random teleported, ask @ocean comet

I only had 2 corrupted regions when I got K10 (coral where I started and aether since I tested portaling a lot and got into a rot region)

[ocean comet]

It happened to me, but I wasn't streaming.

[halcyon tapir]

Almost all my regions were corrupted lmao

I only had to corrupt 4 extra ones for secret ending

[lean flicker]

I have seen someone with a self-made portal to "Badlands -> U.Evolution" in their map (permanent portal I guess)

[ocean comet]

imagine all the backtracking just so you can have a challenge the same difficulty as PC

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah unfortunate evolution is a permanent warp

[lean flicker]

And I have something similar in mine (it may be a guarantee)

[halcyon tapir]

Badlands and cold storage have a permanent UE warp, none of the other corrupted regions have one

[lean flicker]

Idealy you would never go to corrupted regions and then is just moving arround the map (same thing as vanilla challenges that require moving a lot)

[clear gazelle]

it is a natural rift its just literally impossible to find on your own (and almost impossible to even reach)

i guess you could make a server challenge of getting into that rift

[halcyon tapir]

I haven't actually been to it yet, what's the issue with it?

[lean flicker]

Still, in my opinion it would be better if people propose cycle 0 challenges (start a campaign and either get an ending in a weird way like <@&821033115911716865> or do something in cycle 0 like <@&1249102673135927417>), or challenges that involve mainly 1 region like <@&1203382634483421304>

that way is just not corrupt THAT ONE

[halcyon tapir]

Id agree with that, corrupting is boring

[solar kraken]

LINEAGE : WARD_E27 : 4 : Pink-0.8, Pink-{RotType:1}-0.6, Pink-{RotType:2}-0.4, Pink-{RotType:3}-0

[halcyon tapir]

Interesting

[clear gazelle]

at the top of this tower

you would never know it was there in the room

[halcyon tapir]

Ohh that's pretty rough

Especially with locusts there

Would definitely be an interesting challenge

[clear gazelle]

i dunno why it exists but yea could be challenge worthy just a little cool spin of visitor

[lean flicker]

Is this a locus room?

[clear gazelle]

ya

[ocean comet]

Grab a worm, get licked. Locusts only attack slugcats since idk, so just grapple to there

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah it's pretty linear, it'd be similar to visitor in difficulty

Batspear realization UE visitor when

[lean flicker]

I like that idea, shelter is 2 rooms ahead so resets are not too bad

[clear gazelle]

visitor is a lot simpler though i think this is cool

[graceful osprey]

Just too close to conductor

[clear gazelle]

would also teach people where grappling worms are in watcher (i think they only exist in signal spires not counting cc)

[lean flicker]

The easiest way to do this is probably mud/lizard inmunity, 1 tricky jump with floatines, spear the wall, grab another spear, repeat and use the other spear above the first one

[halcyon tapir]

Squid flight wouldn't be too hard also

[clear gazelle]

maybe you could do funny things like use a bomb to fling yourself up

[lean flicker]

you can probably use a explosive spear explosion

[halcyon tapir]

Looks to high for an espear jump

[lean flicker]

and there is a scav merchant nearby

[ocean comet]

It isnt that strong

[lean flicker]

so it wouldn't be too bad

[graceful osprey]

Getting a grapple worm from pink SI could work
Also you can use mud/paint from lizards so that the locusts doesnt kill you

[clear gazelle]

also it would be cool to teach people about this cuz otherwise it is virtually impossible to find on your own

[ocean comet]

The locusts thing is basically required for Badlands anyways, and pretty easy to find on your own

[clear gazelle]

and going to see funny rot void worm could be cool without needing to visit station annex

[ocean comet]

You can also randomly get into Unfortunate afaik

[halcyon tapir]

Is there another way to get there? Like an echo warp or something? I never went through either permanent warp

[ocean comet]

By karmaflowerless warp

[lean flicker]

you can exit trough UE, but sure

[hollow zealot]

What about passing the rooms from the shelter to the echo with mainly movement?

Also what about a challenge involving the boomerang?

[clear gazelle]

that would be cool

[lean flicker]

This 2 rooms?

[ocean comet]

Watcher movement techs are pretty new and unresearched. Just having a tech that forces things for no clear reason doesn't sound that good

[clear gazelle]

ive mentioned this

[hollow zealot]

Other shelter

[clear gazelle]

i think they meant traditional movement

like eslides and stuff

[hollow zealot]

I meant mainly eslides

[halcyon tapir]

Going to the echo location without using mud, tongue goo or sporepuff would be a cool idea

[hollow zealot]

Since it's possible

[hollow zealot]

Or max karma

[clear gazelle]

through this

[halcyon tapir]

They can still smell you in the alternate dimension

[clear gazelle]

i think that would be a cool challenge

[ocean comet]

Couldn't you just pinwarp

[lean flicker]

I wanted to test a <@&904855352451956746>-style "survive the entire region" (and maybe go back if possible)

[clear gazelle]

just ban it

[hollow zealot]

Wtf? Will you die?

[halcyon tapir]

Yep, it's dumb

[hollow zealot]

???

[clear gazelle]

locusts are the triple affirmative

[halcyon tapir]

Plenty of fun ways to do it, you could also forgo eslides by just using a couple mushrooms

[ocean comet]

Alternate dimension is a scam. Even the desolate tract thingies can track you down in the shadow realm

[halcyon tapir]

Loaches can eat you in the shadow realm???

[lean flicker]

they smell your fear

[ocean comet]

Not eat you, but still hunt you

[halcyon tapir]

What's the difference?

[clear gazelle]

as long as it goes through barnacle crabs im happy

[ocean comet]

They will move towards you

[halcyon tapir]

Ohhh

That's silly

Loaches can eat guardians so I thought maybe they were just that strong

[ocean comet]

Also invisibility works on giant jellyfishes, for. Some reason

[halcyon tapir]

Oh did y'all see that spearmaster has a special interaction with pomegranates

Makes me hopeful we'll get some kind of official way to enter the regions as other scugs

[lean flicker]

Partially work, I think they can hear you fall in water

[hollow zealot]

I think some challenges related to these could be cool:

• Boomerang
• Poisoned Spears
• Locusts
• Eating a cooked Noodlefly in that one region
• Blizard

[ocean comet]

Karma gates for sure 🙏

[clear gazelle]

cooked noodlefly?

[ocean comet]

Watcher 2: the worldbuding update

[lean flicker]

I imagine it means that one Aether region

[halcyon tapir]

Just pick one region that's close enough to vanilla timeline to have a gate, then make it have a portal to the rest that only opens post watcher

You could have the pearls be there and only be readable by moon on non watcher scugs, for a reason to actually go maybe

[ocean comet]

Even better, make Aether Region subregions be connected again

[lean flicker]

||Unfortunate Development rift into Evolution||

[halcyon tapir]

That'd be pretty sick

[lean flicker]

I wounder how many slugcats could move arround without too much trouble, floatiness is good but not needed in most areas due to being survivor-aproved mods

[ocean comet]

Five Pebbles has a TON of unused pipe connections anyways, so there is plenty of ways to implement this without causing issues with mods

[halcyon tapir]

Almost all of them I'm sure, especially with some extra movement tech. Most areas do not require watchers float

[hollow zealot]

Heat Ducts has flamethrowers that even kill enemies, so you could "cook" a Noodlefly and eat it

[ocean comet]

Noots die when you grab them tho

[lean flicker]

at most Shatterd terrace east side and Urban

[halcyon tapir]

Bring a jetfish from coral caves into heat ducts and cook it 🥹

[clear gazelle]

ohh

[hollow zealot]

Or a Mother Noodlefly

[lean flicker]

you can get an egg into the shelter, it's next to a flamethrower so it would be easy to follow you to their doom

[clear gazelle]

watcher cant eat mother noots

[hollow zealot]

Ah right

[halcyon tapir]

Btw I noticed that watcher doesn't struggle to carry noodlefly eggs, does that mean he's got Hunter strength?

[lean flicker]

no, he can't grab a heavy object like a scav

[ocean comet]

All one-handed items never influence your weight.

[halcyon tapir]

Neither can hunter

[lean flicker]

or dropwig, eggs I don't think are particulary hard to move arround

[halcyon tapir]

I swear I remember survivor and monk struggling with them

Like they swung around like a 2 handed object

[ocean comet]

They don't, it is just visually weird

[halcyon tapir]

Maybe I'm insane

Ah okay

Nvm then no heat ducts chef

[lean flicker]

You can try to bait a big noodelfly by eating the sons and moving her to another flamethrower

that would be a bit harder

[halcyon tapir]

Oh yeah that could be interesting

Can we get one that makes a loach eat something silly

I like that they can eat anything

And they can be batspeared so you could theoretically take them to any creature

Maybe take them to like a failwarp region and have them eat a dll or something

[blazing garden]

a loach?

[ember skiff]

The deer guys

[halcyon tapir]

big silly guys in desolate tract

[autumn halo]

the things in desolate tract

[blazing garden]

OH

[lean flicker]

The giant creatures in the windy brutalist gray area

[blazing garden]

theyre funny i call them evil deers

[lean flicker]

They are silly

[blazing garden]

and scary

[halcyon tapir]

they're just a lil hungry 🥺

[autumn halo]

i love how the rot version of them is called rot behemoth

[lean flicker]

One time I jumped from high above, fall into their "butt thing" and saw another one eat a green lizard

[blazing garden]

lmao

[lean flicker]

they are so silly

[still sequoia]

i'm still hoping for illgrimage™

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I like that idea too

[lean flicker]

Yea, get SOMETHING to RP

could be a decent challenge

A bit on the easier side probably since at best you just tame some lizard, create a unsable portal and do the walk of shame for 15 min or so

[autumn halo]

that’s cool but probably not too hard, i already did this with a normal cyan, can’t imagine a rotted one to make this much harder

[halcyon tapir]

is there a perma warp to OR? If so you could just ban failwarps

[autumn halo]

all manual rifts u open in OR remain as permanent

[lean flicker]

The 4 portals that you randomly create in throne

[autumn halo]

and are directly in the subregion

[halcyon tapir]

oh true yeah

[lean flicker]

but they are random and they are next to prince already

[autumn halo]

so not hard

[still sequoia]

yeah it's not particularly difficult, certainly nowhere as hard as regular pilgrimage at least

then again, hard challenge≠good challenge (looking at you broadcast)

[halcyon tapir]

yeah that'd be lame

one of the echo warps takes you to OR too right? maybe you could have to go there?

[autumn halo]

i literally did this in 5 minutes

[lean flicker]

broadcast is easy

is not hard, just annoying

[halcyon tapir]

broadcast hunter no prep smh

[lean flicker]

If you want to make the challenge harder

I don't know if you could do it but

[vagrant reef]

toy to prince. the spinning top is a kina fun awkward item to drag around https://youtu.be/O19wa6llIzI

i even came up with a name :)

[halcyon tapir]

I think it'd be best to force a specific route, similar to how pilg doesn't allow wall

[lean flicker]

Tame a Cyan in HI (after echo 2), get the cyan teleported with you to the 1st REAL area and from there go with the cyan until Prince hatches

I don't know if you can move it trough echo portals (and also I think is a bit jank and sometimes lizards don't move with you

[ocean comet]

Pilg didnt allow Wall since it was thought to be impossible or something along those lines iirc

[lean flicker]

Imposible?

Why

If anything the grapple west underhang

but wall with a cyan is easy

[halcyon tapir]

yeah but it's not, and would make certain variations like batspear pilg significantly easier

[halcyon tapir]

I believe its just cos the lizard has a lot of trouble pathfinding over the bridge

[ocean comet]

it was just not changed due to too much time passing or something idk. It was brought up in several different convos, you could prob search it up if you want

[ocean comet]

to be more specific, if a lizard cannot walk to somewhere, it will not try to jump to the same place too

[halcyon tapir]

I'd like to see it changed for the sake of variation, but it's nbd, I finished it anyways

[solar kraken]

would a slayer bunny-focussed challenge work

[round drift]

Watcher

[solar kraken]

Watcher

[halcyon tapir]

this could be a cool variation on chef

[lean flicker]

Monty Python reference maybe?

[halcyon tapir]

use the heatducts fire to cook killer bunny

alive

[round drift]

That's cool

[graceful osprey]

Minecraft also has a killer bunny iirc

[solar kraken]

minecraft postdates the 1977 movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[halcyon tapir]

used to, doesn't spawn naturally anymore

[solar kraken]

it never did

[graceful osprey]

True lol

[halcyon tapir]

removed in 1.8

[solar kraken]

ah huh

wait it only ever naturally spawned for a month and a half

[halcyon tapir]

technically also added in 1.8 but were removed in a later version so still counts

[solar kraken]

in pre-release snapshots

[halcyon tapir]

yeah lol I thought I remembered it being a part of official versions

[clear gazelle]

does prince say anything about the lizard?

[autumn halo]

nope, doesn’t acknowledge it

[clear gazelle]

maybe if you feed lizard to the proto rot...

[autumn halo]

i wanted to see if there was dialogue but he just said the normal thing when seeing him

[autumn halo]

noooooo

[hollow zealot]

"Teleport 10 times without hibernating"

Idk

Some of these don't seem fun really

[halcyon tapir]

Eat every tardigrade and then hibernate

[hollow zealot]

So far my ideas are smth about

• Boomerang
• Poisoned Spears
• Locusts
• Blizard

[halcyon tapir]

Honestly the only ideas I've liked are the bringing a toy to Prince and getting to the UE room

[hollow zealot]

Maybe kill a Blizard with a poisoned spear

[halcyon tapir]

I want one for bringing a loach to something silly to get it to eat it

[hollow zealot]

Toys to Prince is interesting indeed, but what's UE?

How do you kill giant jellyfish?

There is one in Coral Caves... So that could be a challenge

[halcyon tapir]

The badlands portal to unfortunate evolution is very hard to reach through normal means

Loaches can eat giant jellies

[still sequoia]

that concept kind of reminds me of @Adventurer, which is pretty cool

[ocean comet]

hear me out hear me out
Watcher Broadcast

[hollow zealot]

Oh that leads to Unfortunate Evolution? Damn

So maybe pass those two rooms with movement

[halcyon tapir]

#1356905227709710436 message

[ocean comet]

btw what do yall think about the Seed mechanic? It sounds like random portals could lead to massive difference in difficulty, so would it be better for portal randomization to still be there or is forcing the seed to always be a certain number better?

[sour shadow]

I'd say it should depend on a challenge

ideas first and you can figure out random or not later

[still sequoia]

i think forcing the seed would probably be better in most cases
rw's already very rng-dependent so it doesn't need another layer of rng to it

[still sequoia]

yeah, i do think only challenges that take place across multiple regions are affected by it

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I think having specific seeds for specific portal orders could also be utilized

[vagrant reef]

It should totally depend on the specific challenge whether or not the seed is random or set by the challenge/player.

[solar kraken]

a problem though

there's still an element of effective randomisation because it's not the seed alone that's used

the amount of cycles gets added to the seed

[halcyon tapir]

man

they make things hard on us smh

[tranquil carbon]

kill 5 moths in a cycle

[autumn halo]

which moths

[tranquil carbon]

giant evil creatures

[sour shadow]

@solar kraken do you approve?

[autumn halo]

ok so those ones :3

never really had problems with them tho they aren’t evil :3

(except the first 2 i met )

[tranquil carbon]

The ones in the container region are evil

They kill red lizards for breakfast

[autumn halo]

at least they clear the way :3

[tranquil carbon]

Tbh I genuinely think they have a different behavior in different regions

[solar kraken]

what no wtf, moths are friends

[tranquil carbon]

@languid idol

[autumn halo]

anyways i think watcher has a lot of potential for challenges of like, weird creature interactions, as it is so easy to move them around from where they normally spawn

[tranquil carbon]

Moths are the vessels of the most evil entity

[tranquil carbon]

The rain timer restarting when you teleport opens many possibilities

[autumn halo]

rot regions:

[solar kraken]

they may suck out your insides with a proboscis, but they're just hungry and you should let them do it

[tranquil carbon]

Wait

Name a creature that is in every region

or in most of them

[solar kraken]

Slugcat

[tranquil carbon]

[autumn halo]

uhhhh lizards :3

idk i haven’t really taken note of creature spawns yet, was gonna do it this afternoon

[tranquil carbon]

Maybe a challenge that includes killing certain type of creature in every or most of the regions in one cycle

[autumn halo]

just take the creature there urself :3

[tranquil carbon]

Idk I wanna kill moths

[tranquil carbon]

Bring a moth to unfortunate evolution

[autumn halo]

“execution: take a big moth to ancient urban, then kill it in front of a swarm of small moths”

[tranquil carbon]

Amazing

[halcyon tapir]

Loaches have the best creature interactions!!!

[tranquil carbon]

what are loaches

[halcyon tapir]

Their interactions are: see creature, if not pole plant, eat

[autumn halo]

oh right they eat everything

[autumn halo]

big things in desolate tract (the grey area)

[halcyon tapir]

Big pretty guys in desolate tract

They're so silly

[tranquil carbon]

Can I see a pic

I don’t remember

[autumn halo]

i never really found out what they did myself, one tried grabbing me but i speared it and ran away

[halcyon tapir]

Btw @solar kraken would you be able to look at the loach relationships to see if it really is just default eats with no other relationships? If that's viewable in the code

[solar kraken]

In a bit

[halcyon tapir]

No rush

[autumn halo]

the thing in the center #1356905227709710436 message

[still sequoia]

wait since they don't eat pole plants, do they not eat kelp as well?

[tranquil carbon]

Oh yes

I fucking hate those

I don’t have a reason to

[autumn halo]

i think they’re pretty cool :3

[halcyon tapir]

Kelp get eaten, they just can't see pole plants (I think) so they don't eat em

[tranquil carbon]

I want to think of a challenge that involves moths

[still sequoia]

maybe something along the lines of "make a moth drop [x] creatures off a cliff"

[tranquil carbon]

YES

Hmmm

But what creature

I would discard red lizards and some lizards

[still sequoia]

i was thinking a certain amount of creatures rather than a specific one

[tranquil carbon]

do you think it’s possible to sacrifice a caramel

[still sequoia]

they should be light enough for moths to pick up iirc?

[tranquil carbon]

Idk the only heavy creature I’ve seen they pick up are red lizards

[solar kraken]

For Loaches, default relationship is Ignores, overridden to Eats for Batflies.
RotLoaches (aka Rot Behemoths, RBehemoths, Behemoths, BigRots), default relationship is Eats at 25% intensity, overridden to a different intensity but still Eats for Slugcat, Lizards, Centipedes, Scavengers, Dropwigs, Infant Centipedes, Coalescipedes, Big Spiders, and StandardGroundCreatures.

[halcyon tapir]

Default is ignores? So why do they just eat everything?

[tranquil carbon]

I have a question
Is there any other creature that can be tamed or something similar like the deers on farm arrays?

[halcyon tapir]

There's the whales in watcher ig

[solar kraken]

went through Loach code and did a bunch of experiments

Ignores mainly means they won't actively pursue you.

They will actively pursue Batflies and try to eat them, and for the rest, touching the tentacles will cause them to grab it, and then colliding with the head means being consumed.

Also

[halcyon tapir]

That makes sense, I mostly had to bring them to it when I was testing

[solar kraken]

Managed to make one eat a Kelp

[halcyon tapir]

But no pole plant? I didn't have much trouble with kelp

Pole plants are really buggy with it, totally froze my game lol

[solar kraken]

Couldn't make one eat a pole plant, I assume Pole Plants have weird body chunks

[halcyon tapir]

Very odd, thanks for the info tho really appreciate it

[solar kraken]

No creature has a FriendTracker like how Lizards or Slugpups do. But BoxWorms have a reputation system (that can really only be lowered) and BigMoths responds to social event and utilise social memory and probably have the most complex relationship with the player among new creatures.

(ignoring new Lizard types because they just inherit complexity from being a Lizard )

[tranquil carbon]

That moth relationship could be a nice material for something but I should investigate

[solar kraken]

Given that you can actually gift creatures to them, like you can with Lizards.

[tranquil carbon]

Do they have max reputation system? Or how do you know you have been good enough with lizards

[solar kraken]

They don't have reputation, just social memory.

Anyway the highest possible relationship is them just completely ignoring you

[tranquil carbon]

[solar kraken]

The default is being uncomfortable

[tranquil carbon]

Qhar?

Weird

[solar kraken]

There are some BigMothAI bugs right now, with them ignoring Vulture Masks and not having a cooldown between throws.

(wearing a Vulture Mask is intended to make them try to eat you)

[graceful osprey]

Wtf why???

So weird

[tranquil carbon]

they eat vultures or idk

I’ve witnessed many fights between vultures and moths lmao

[graceful osprey]

Oh i havent noticed that

Nature is beautiful 🥹

[tranquil carbon]

@solar kraken does the karma shield on Scavs only work with projectiles and stuff or can it protect the scav from being grabbed d

[solar kraken]

yeah they try to eat vultures

[solar kraken]

it gets triggered in Scavenger.Violence() if the source of Violence is either a Weapon in Thrown mode or a Creature

[solar kraken]

They try to eat Red/Cyan Lizards, Vultures, Centipedes, and Big Spiders. However, as far as I can see, the gift system doesn't care for that, just whether at least two meat points are left.

oh yeah this is also because the static relationship gets overridden by trying to eat it if the creature is dead

[halcyon tapir]

Oh btw has anyone tested how multispawning works with the portals?

I have to assume they accounted for being able to repeatedly exit and reenter a region via a portal, surely?

I might hop on and see soon, if nobody has

[ocean comet]

making your own portal causes ALL the regions to be loaded

but unsure if this kind of loading occurs anywhere else

[lean flicker]

Someone mentioned havin 2 of each toys, they probably starved when reaching Urban and doublespawned it

[halcyon tapir]

Wouldn't that just mean repeatedly making your own portals without ever sleeping would continuously multispawn globally?

[ocean comet]

toys likely dont have creature spawns. It was just a room effect / script activating twice

[ocean comet]

idk

[halcyon tapir]

I'll test that too, I suppose

[round drift]

oh absolutely

it really feels like that

the ones i first encountered did nothing, and then the ones in that container region were out for blood

[halcyon tapir]

after some testing, it appears that entering and reentering a portal has no effect on multispawning. It counts always as a single entry into the region. It does however still allow you to double spawn the region via a starve. Starving in any region will double spawn all regions you've visited that cycle and have not loaded previously, by the looks of it, since I only starved in Corrupted Factories but Rusted Wrecks was also doublespawned.

[hollow zealot]

I had 2 toys too, lol

I have no idea why though

Most likely because of jolly co-op

[halcyon tapir]

also as far as I can tell creating your own portals has zero effect on whether the doublespawn works, on your own region or others

[round drift]

multispawning on watcher is really weird

i managed to doublespawn all kelps by accident but only the kelps

[tranquil carbon]

Do you think that the fact that there are more hostile creatures in that region that can damage or be hunted by moth is important

[halcyon tapir]

there's an echo in the toy room???

[tranquil carbon]

I fucking hate own portals cause they always lead to the surface where the Scavs are sleeping

[still sequoia]

spawns on watcher are weird in general honestly

did they fix the glitch where all creature spawns in a region just cease to exist under certain circumstances?

[round drift]

What?

[halcyon tapir]

sorry for the long pause I was surprised

okay I gotta test some stuff with that, I wonder if its cos I didn't actually have enough karma to be in ancient urban or if its because I went to the toy room before going to the bath

[still sequoia]

i think it might only appear if you go there before going to WAUA_BATH?

[halcyon tapir]

the pipe is blocked off tho, it's impossible to enter from the top

also as far as I can tell they made it so frogs immediately die in the entire region specifically to prevent you entering the pipe (since its technically enabled, just has a push zone preventing entry, I believe)

[exotic onyx]

only 2, on main Aether Ridge. Rest are natural spawns on... The Surface iirc

[halcyon tapir]

yeah surface has em

also apparently this echo dialogue is just easily accessible via the lower entrance

[exotic onyx]

this is 100% possible

[halcyon tapir]

did anyone do this in their playthrough?

I completely missed this dialogue and went straight to bath

it gives so much context to the ending

[hollow zealot]

Meet the echo in the toy room before finishing the campaign?

I did, technically

I was dead while a friend continued and since only Player 1 can meet Echos we had to reload the cycle, so we followed the laughing from the Echo

So we met this Echo and then finished the campaign, only to spawn there haha

[tropic bison]

👀

[raw flame]

omg watcher challs chat

hi challengers

I need to cook up a challenge in signal spires

[solar kraken]

vegan 2: access the Signal Spiders echo without using Sky Whales

[raw flame]

easy I did that already

[raw flame]

#watcher-spoilers message only hard part, and you can acces it like this (or wiggleflight I suppose whatever works for you )

[solar kraken]

ah I used a pause-buffered CTV for this

[raw flame]

multiple ppl told me they did it that way, but where do you even preform it?

[solar kraken]

in the same spot you did

[raw flame]

ah, so instead of corner throw pounce you do a ctv and go up with the worm from there? interesting

also I should test if you can do movement on sky whales, since you can stand and even run on them, so maybe something could be done with that?

[round drift]

watcher sever challenges

[half seal]

im animating all challenges so i really want this

[spice perch]

I have a feeling one of the challenges will be a new version of chef involving the ||heat ducts flamethrowers||

[raw flame]

Someone already proposed this with noots I think. Maybe you could roast multiple smaller creatures and combine them into a meal of sorts?

[round drift]

Ok hear me out. That region is already full of noot eggs so what if we do something like "scrambled" where you throw an amount of noodlefly eggs into fire or the hot plate things

[spice perch]

I love the flamethrowers

That’s a good idea

Fire has such good potential for future challenges

Maybe one could be bringing a creature that doesn’t live in heat ducts through a warp and then roasting it on a flame…

[still sequoia]

i feel like a lot of watcher challenges are gonna boil down to "reimagined vanilla challenge"
(which isn't a bad thing honestly)

[spice perch]

Well watcher is a very “reimagined vanilla” style campaign so it works

[exotic onyx]

something about doing <@&1178062110543057082> on the barnacles pls 🙏 🙏

[still sequoia]

"kill every barnacle within coral caves in one cycle"

[spice perch]

one will have to do with de shelling a drill crab wont it…

[exotic onyx]

you can what

[still sequoia]

crab usurper

[spice perch]

I’ve never seen it myself

But supposedly explosives do the trick

[vague fjord]

is there any cool watcher movement tech besides the super/charged jumps or whatever they're called

[still sequoia]

you could probably do some other cool shit with the hover ability, but besides that it's only run-of-the-mill survivor tech unfortunately

[vague fjord]

yeah once you unlock the hover if you press ''special'' and then immediately jump you jump higher and if you hold special for a lil bit and then you immediately jump you jump even higher so far it's only that bud I wonder if you can incorporate that into slides

[hollow zealot]

Me

[hollow zealot]

We should get some different challenges though... Rot U-Turn is interesting but nothing new...

Entomophobia
In the Badlands, cross the rooms WBLA_F02 and WBLA_01 without the use of:

• Sporepuffs
• Lizard Saliva
• Mushrooms? Idk, there are a lot of restrictions in this challenge...

Basically a different kind of Outdoorsman lmao, just a lot more skill based and frustrating haha

Maybe cross this gap?

[solar kraken]

fairly simple with a throwboost + camo flight + spearstick

[hollow zealot]

You don't even need a spearstick

Not all challenges need to be hard, right?

[exotic onyx]

nope, but ya still gotta do something interesting ofc

no one would enjoy a challenge about for example leaving hydroponics in a cycle

[spice perch]

But how about getting shaded echo in a cycle

[halcyon tapir]

I did that with an espear jump on my casual playthrough

[halcyon tapir]

I think I might have figured something out that's pretty major

you don't need to enter the echo portals to increase your karma

just finish the echoes dialogue

which means there's nothing forcing you to set your shelter outside of the basegame regions

Ie it's possible to get enough echo karma to gain the ability to make custom warp portals without ever changing your shelter from one of the base game ones, meaning you can make return portals to any of them

which means not only is OE warp real but OE warp is easy

@solar kraken if you happen to be around, I saw you talking about ripplelevels earlier, do you know the level of verdant waterways? or perhaps adjacent regions but a direct warp would be best

[cedar wasp]

I have a silly idea for a challenge, idk how fun it would be but freeing the 3 lizards from their cages using pinned batlinked eggbugs

(or at least the blue lizard, who is on the leftmost screen which makes it easier to set up)

Where's the nearest swarm room to here?

[exotic onyx]

@cedar wasp keep in mind bats can go through rifts, and rifts reset cycle time, so you could make a rift nearby and bring batflies from another region

[cedar wasp]

true, but it would be more convenient if there was one nearby

[exotic onyx]

for the original question, WARD_E11 is the sole SWARMROOM on Cold Storage

[cedar wasp]

oh so literally 2 rooms away

perfect

my blue lizard abstracted through their cage in my first playthrough, which is what gave me this idea

[cedar wasp]

I'm trying to think of all the cool thing you can do with this, it could be so flexible (though we are a bit limited in what regions we can reach without oe warp)

[halcyon tapir]

main issue with OE warp (which I'm working towards getting a legit clip of now) is that we need a very difficult/possibly impossible gatewarp to reach the rest of the world

but if we can wrongden in the OE gate we can get into sub, and sub is connected to every other region in the game in one way or another

except for the three fp regions

[cedar wasp]

those moth things let you vulture warp right?

are they restricted from precipice?

[halcyon tapir]

they do, but they're very annoying

oh my god

you're right

probably not

hold on

bigmoth has no restrictions

watcher precipice warp is possible

that's so fucking funny

I will not be doing that because trying to warp to a specific room on the map is extremely annoying + moths are the worst for warping cos they hate leaving rooms, but I already have a clip of warping into OE with a moth, so precipice warp is definitely possible

[cedar wasp]

would be a great time for tas tools, just retrying until they path to a precipice room

[halcyon tapir]

yeah honestly

I wonder if they can migrate

wouldn't really be useful even then since they have no calling method like vultures

[exotic onyx]

WAIT THIS MEANS YOU CAN BRING A FROG TO VANILLA REGIONS

[halcyon tapir]

as long as you can self warp to verdant waterways or one of the connecting regions

[ember hatch]

that guy who wanted frogs in outskirts for whatever reason will be happy to know

oh this is the challenge thread

[halcyon tapir]

that would've been me I need it for silly warp shenanigans

[exotic onyx]

@halcyon tapir are moths restricted from hidden rooms like vultures are? if they're not they could also be used to reach the fp regions

[halcyon tapir]

oh maybe not

I assumed they would be cos its like a global hide from everything

I'll check tho

yeah no still restricted

[exotic onyx]

I think hiderooms make them globally forbidden to everything

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I believe so

still, precipice warp means its technically possible to visit pebbles and exterior and metro

OE warp is much easier and if we can figure out a setup to gatewarp it could be very big

[exotic onyx]

precipice warp is theoretically possible at least. What a discovery

[halcyon tapir]

it's very funny to me

not possible on anyone else

[cedar wasp]

unless we find some rng manipulation I don't think anyone is going to attempt this one

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I don't intend to even try it, it's two rooms on the entire map

[cedar wasp]

or if a very consistent and fast method is found

[halcyon tapir]

maybe if you could shelter with the moth? I don't think they're deleted

but I don't think there are any big shelters with batflies going into shoreline

[cedar wasp]

oh yeah will there be swarm rooms there?

you might have to shelter with the moth near a swarm room in a watcher region near the shoreline portal

[halcyon tapir]

I'm pretty sure spawns are unchanged from survivor in the regions you can't normally visit

I can check that too lol I need to stop turning my dev tools mods off

[exotic onyx]

You would get global spawns and "everyone-except" spawns only; the ones that are set to spawn for everybody and the few that have exceptions to certain scugs

[halcyon tapir]

assuming they didn't add an except watcher to everything

yeah spawns are normal

it also appears that lf spawns might be unchanged too, despite it being accessible but not reachable

[exotic onyx]

For example in shoreline you'd get this spawns

[halcyon tapir]

could you check if deer are set to spawn in LF?

oh wait

everythings forbidden

that's why they're not coming to see me

so you'd also need probably a grapple worm or something to get out of sb gate to lf

or no there's gooieducks so doesn't matter lol

[cedar wasp]

you have as many tools as you need to reach shoreline anyway, since you can make rifts

[halcyon tapir]

true yeah

just as long as you return to them without sheltering

[cedar wasp]

don't rifts last a few cycles as well

[exotic onyx]

Watcher does NOT have any offscreen creatures in LF

[cedar wasp]

the ones you make

[halcyon tapir]

I wish you could make a portal that enters OR inside the throne

[halcyon tapir]

so they hate me and don't exist

[exotic onyx]

No scavs, no vultures, no deer

[halcyon tapir]

5 I believe

[halcyon tapir]

but centipedes are still there in sb gate

odd choices

[exotic onyx]

3 according to randi, unless it was made in the throne then it last 9999 cycles

[halcyon tapir]

oh 3? oki

but yeah that'd be great if we could portal into the throne, but unfortunately it appears to only be exits

oh btw feather do you know the other region you can initially get sent to at the start of the game

I know torrential and coral

I could test but it takes a while lol

[exotic onyx]

Sunlit Trail by taking Chimney Canopy last @halcyon tapir

[halcyon tapir]

sunlit trail

alright

[exotic onyx]

mini fun fact, all 3 starting regions have an Aether Ridge connection

( )

[halcyon tapir]

yeah they do lmao

which is good, aether ridge has an echo

the only routing problem I haven't 100% solved is getting to each echo without sheltering

or taking an echo portal

pretty sure you only need 3

maybe 4 I can never remember

[exotic onyx]

I think you get warps at ripple 4

[halcyon tapir]

I tested it a bit ago just to confirm you could do it

with dev tools

but I don't remember how many it was

doesn't it add .5 to your ripple with each echo? that would make it like 6 echoes assuming you start from 1 ripple

[exotic onyx]

Am not using internal counting because fuck that

[halcyon tapir]

oh gotcha lmao

so karma 4 you mean

[exotic onyx]

who thought using halfs was a good idea

[halcyon tapir]

I thought it was silly too

I guess we'll see, if it's only three that shouldn't be too hard at all

sunlit doesn't have an echo but it has access to several that do within a couple jumps

coral and torrential are a bit less useful

[hard kindle]

Watcher actually did massively improve the vulture warp systems somehow

[halcyon tapir]

how's that? besides its own personal one being easier

I haven't tested the new eel ai so that might be better too idk

[hard kindle]

Ye that's what i mean sorry

You can do watcher vulture warps and they're more applicable because of how it works now

Or well
Moth warps?

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I gotta see how well the eel works but I don't really wanna do more sm testing

moth warps are possible also

(and let us precipice warp)

but they suck cos moths hate leaving rooms and can't be called to them

[ocean comet]

Isn't this literally a single pinwarp?

[ocean comet]

Funnily enough there is an unused Remix option for how long a rift should last, which is set to always be 5 but ig it is completely unused as a variable as well

[hollow zealot]

It's way too easy

[solar kraken]

I don’t recall ever saying 3? It was 5

yeah, checking message history I only ever said 5 :leditoroverload:

#1356256638541103114 message

[halcyon tapir]

hey @solar kraken sorry for the ping but would you happen to know how the portals decide what region loads when you go through them? I think I know how it works but wanted to confirm there weren't any quirks that might help me

[solar kraken]

warp points you can find are all locked in with no randomisation

besides the ones in Rotted Vanilla Regions

[halcyon tapir]

more thinking for self made ones, as in why did a self made portal I placed in a gate room lead me to the other side of the gate rather than the one that would be normally loaded via something like a wrongden

[solar kraken]

dynamic warps pick out of rooms that have DynamicWarpTarget

if rippleLevel is high enough to choose that specific target

[solar kraken]

note they pick between rooms and not regions

[halcyon tapir]

right yeah I understand that, I don't really mind where it takes me on the way there, but I was hoping it could be used to gatewarp when you go back through

unless both regions are simultaneously loaded while you have a gate open in a region surely there's something there to load the next one when you go through

but it seems to be different from how gates work

[solar kraken]

there aren't any gate rooms with a DynamicWarpTarget, are there?

[halcyon tapir]

no, but I'm making my own from a gate

portal stays open so I can reenter and go back to the gate, but for example its still loading SU even when the gate is named GATE_OE_SU

I found a way to have self made portals outside of the portal regions, if you didn't see

[solar kraken]

ah

hm, will look into it a bit more

[halcyon tapir]

thanks, sorry for being confusing lmao

[radiant bay]

I noticed that, it looked like they should attack you if you wear a mask but you need to drop it for a moment then pick it up I think?

also from experimentation + looking at the code I believe (not certain that this is how it works but) that if you get your rep with one up only a small amount, enough for it to not attack you but not enough to ignore you, its behaviour becomes trying to eat you

when u stop wanting to kill someone and begin wanting to eat them instead

[hard kindle]

me irl

[ocean comet]

@halcyon tapir how do you get karma without entering the portal afterwards? Just met the third echo and even when I exited the room after dialogue it just forced the teleport

[halcyon tapir]

You have to die or shelter before entering the third echoes portal, just as long as it's not on the same cycle you spoke to it

The portal will stay open, and for the first one it'll swap your karma to special karma, but it'll lose the ability to set your spawn

[ocean comet]

So meet the echo and rush to closest shelter / deathpit?

[halcyon tapir]

Has to be after the dialogue finishes

A good easy one is the CC one

[ocean comet]

thanks

[halcyon tapir]

You can climb up to see it and then just wait out the dialogue at the bottom of the room

Same applies for every echo in the portal regions also, just make sure you die or shelter after meeting it (preferably die so you can go back to the vanilla regions lol)

[ocean comet]

btw this could be really good to have on the Tech Iceberg if you dont mind

[halcyon tapir]

Karma is given regardless of if you enter the portal for those, except for ones in corrupted regions for whatever

Oh sure thing I'll put something together once I hop back on my PC

Would it be better if I did a Google doc explaining it or should I just write a big message and link it

[ocean comet]

Google doc if there is too much info imo

lmao

[halcyon tapir]

I'll see how much I can think of that needs to be clarified

[halcyon tapir]

Oh that's interesting, OE doesn't have an image

I wonder why they set one for those regions if you're not intended to visit them

After gaining that map

[solar kraken]

Glitch-based RWSC challenge ideas should be avoided early on imo

[solar kraken]

Only LF, CC, and SH do

Which are the Echo regions

[solar kraken]

Because there will be a billion patches

[hard kindle]

If this continues to exist after watcher's stabilized I'd love to see a chal around it (Copycat is cool even if it's obscure as hell and impossible to figure out on your own)

Obviously can't do that when they're actively bugfixing though

[ocean comet]

guess I found a new softlock lol

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah gotta be pretty careful lol

That little problem is what's turning my OE warp progress into a crawl

[ocean comet]

Does it work like karma levels, or does getting new karma system make you completely unable to use gates?

[quartz cypress]

Challenge where u have to survive triggering 3 of those drill crabs at once…

[ocean comet]

apparently I managed to somehow un-ripple my marka huh

[halcyon tapir]

Completely unusable unfortunately

Oh shit

How did you manage that

That would be incredibly useful

[ocean comet]

idk, I just warped until I got into rotten DS and when I exited the echo room to check some stuff I noticed this

[halcyon tapir]

Hmm

You don't have a clip?

[ocean comet]

nope.

[halcyon tapir]

I will do some testing I suppose

[ocean comet]

I should prob record all of this just in case

[halcyon tapir]

Maybe yeah

Lots of odd discoveries

I record the last hour via steam record

[ocean comet]

also do you have a list of ways you got some echoes without activating portals?

the DS one seems pretty hard, given how it is a single screen room

[lean flicker]

Does DAKR fix it btw? Or Ripple 1 < Karma 1?

same with monk gates

[halcyon tapir]

I'm gonna test monk gates in a minute, I believe that'll work since it removes the karma requirement

but dakr still requires karma 0

[lean flicker]

karma 1, not 0 XD

Monk is karma 0

[quartz cypress]

M-cool made a goof make fun of them

[halcyon tapir]

I only routed for the echoes closest to sunlit port, so aether ridge, torrid desert, and desolate tract

[quartz cypress]

The way watchers karma works is still so confusing to me

Does it even matter…

[halcyon tapir]

but for example aether ridge is similarly single screened, you can bypass this by leaving the room during their last piece of dialogue and not reentering

#1356256638541103114 message here's a link to all the dialogue

[halcyon tapir]

karma 0 in the code but yeah functionally karma 1 lol

[lean flicker]

Everyone call Ascension Karma 10. A lot of programing uses 1 = [0]

and is better to have Monk be 0 since is used in a few places as some sort of NONE / Zero

[halcyon tapir]

yeah I know it makes more sense lol

k0 is just how I've always referred to it myself

[halcyon tapir]

Hey @ocean comet I've had no luck recreating getting your regular karma back, was there any chance you hadn't met an echo yet to actually set it to weird karma?

It doesn't set it on the first portal like normal so if the first one you tried was the DS one that would make sense

[ocean comet]

Oh that makes sense yeah

[halcyon tapir]

well that's a first

doesn't even work with monk style gates

[ocean comet]

lol

[halcyon tapir]

they really had to make this hard on me, huh

[ocean comet]

Can you create a portal while the shelter is closing using wrongwarp?

[lean flicker]

I know you can use the portal in a weird way and enter a shelter that is being opened

[ocean comet]

Yeah that happens since shelter opening animation is tied to rain timer, and portals reset rain timer

[halcyon tapir]

you can't portal while in a shelter, no clue if you can make one while wrongdenning

I doubt there's enough time

this OE route is going to be long and convoluted instead of easy

why couldn't they just let us go through gates

[ocean comet]

Can't wait for the patch that arrives in a week to just remove this glitch lol

[halcyon tapir]

yeah probably

maybe they'll be kind

maybe I should've waited to reveal I'd discovered it

[ocean comet]

Please John Videocult if you see this, have mercy and spare this glitch

[halcyon tapir]

Ping me if you end up finding anything useful, I'm too tired to do a full write up of all this tonight if I wanna get it all right lol

[exotic onyx]

sorry for the misinfo

[exotic onyx]

karma is tracked on the background still from what I notice via save digging

[ocean comet]

Yeah it appears like that in speedrun validation too

Though there seems to be an override that makes you unable to cross karma gates it seems

[exotic onyx]

dayum, not even monk style gates accept ripple?

they definitely gonna patch this bug but hey imma just throw this idea in
"Extinction" - De-spawn the creatures from every watcher region except for the starting area
From a funny glitch that's scarily easy to trigger

[halcyon tapir]

that'd be pretty cool

completely boring savefile

[autumn halo]

wait how is it done exactly i did it by complete accident 5 times

[exotic onyx]

Man I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy exploring an empty Coral Caves

[halcyon tapir]

coral caves spawns are ass, that makes sense

but no loaches

[exotic onyx]

@autumn halo Seems to trigger if you approach a rift to a new region but hibernate before crossing, the game saves a barren regionstate that makes it think you've visited the region before and doesn't populate the region as it should

[autumn halo]

wait then how did i have it happen on rot regions

[exotic onyx]

The glitch is triggered if you can see the region's art and name on the map without having entered

[exotic onyx]

No idea tbh

[autumn halo]

i’ve gone through pretty much all regions and Corrupted Factories, Infected Wastes, Outer Rim and The Surface all had no spawns whatsoever

[exotic onyx]

I think it also triggers if you die on your first visit

[autumn halo]

that might explain the OR one but i didn’t die on the rot regions that i remember

[exotic onyx]

regardless what I'm sure of is that something is loading regionstates without also loading the region's population. Multispawning but in reverse, you're making the game think you've been to regions

[autumn halo]

interesting

[lean flicker]

avarage high liz/scav rep run

[halcyon tapir]

You're not wrong lmfao

That's why I killed every scav I saw in my playthrough

[lean flicker]

I did high liz because I tamed a cyan and was doing <@&821078631425769503> for the lulz

lizards are like 80% of the enemies, without that is just barnacles and some random centepide from time to time

Scavs are rare, at most you will get offscrened stab

[halcyon tapir]

And loaches

Some regions have a good amount of scavs

Badlands has a toll and I remember quite a few wanderers

[lean flicker]

do you really want to have to deal with bugs and offscreen scavs while moving at high speeds? XD

[ocean comet]

Could you possibly despawn the starting area too by just using the glitch that makes you not travel through the portal after 3rd echo?

[halcyon tapir]

That's what's confusing me about their method, cos we have to do that for the glitch I've been doing all day and it's had no effect on the spawns for me

I've yet to see an empty region glitch in all of my testing and playing

[ocean comet]

I think the way it works is that getting close to trigger a rift teleport causes the spawns to load and afterwards you hibernate, and the way you do the other glitch is by not getting close to the rift teleport at all

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I suppose so

If I remember I might do a couple tests on that tomorrow too, but I'm not too interested in how it works

That one's much more likely to be patched than the other stuff

[solar kraken]

Interesting list for ARZappers (only exist in Heat Ducts)

The sole one you can even bring glitchless is Karma Flowers

[solar kraken]

(Downpour content)

[radiant bay]

tried to leave the full video of my cycle 0 max ripple run to render overnight (after I was asked to post it here to see if it would be good as a challenge)

got to 90% then had an error

(it's like 8h long)

will cut it down a bunch then just go with that if it fails again

[halcyon tapir]

Another thing that makes me think they intend to bring in some method of going there for the other scugs. A lot of weird interactions with things only they can do/have access to

[neat totem]

Hello there!

I am cooking up a challenge rn

[ocean vapor]

.

[neat totem]

My challenge idea is Outcast - Finish the Watcher campaign while only sheltering in Outer Rim

I finished a run just today, with 3 shelterings
But I need to actually record it

The sequence of regions was
||Sunlit Port > Aether Ridge > Torrid Desert > Decaying Tunnels > Outer Rim > Coral Caves > Rusted Wreck > Desolate Tract > Turbulent Pump > Heat Ducts > Corrupted Factories > Outer Rim > Verdant Waterways > Fetid Glen > Shattered Terrace > Shrouded Coast > Cold Storage > Infested Wastes > Outer Rim > Signal Spires > Shattered Terrace > Ancient Urban||

I'm fairly confident making it in two cycles is possible, albeit very tight

Would a full video be necessary to fact-check such a run?

Or is there a way to prove the campaign was completed with only Outer Rim sheltering in a simpler manner

[radiant bay]

kinda similar to the one I'm waiting for the video for rn, which is full ripple with 0 shelters (but you can't beat the campaign)

[neat totem]

What would be the end goal then?

[exotic onyx]

you'd need screenshots/clips of meeting the echoes and warping I think

[halcyon tapir]

Why can't you beat it?

[neat totem]

0 shelters is a nightmare

After a point, you just end up in a loop

Due to how the system works

You get stuck between rotted vanilla variants, and regions where you've already acquired the Echo

Which is why I had to tweak my challenge to allow for Outer Rim sheltering

I did it with as few cycles as possible exactly because I was aiming for 0 cycles lol

[neat totem]

Hmmm

[halcyon tapir]

I think either one is too long and too much like "just play the game but harder" tbh

[radiant bay]

can't turn invisible -> can't activate the echo in shattered terrace

you could get the rot ending but like, no

[halcyon tapir]

Oh is there not a close enough connection to get to shattered?

What does shattered connect to

[radiant bay]

I've never managed to make it to shattered

[neat totem]

Tbf I think it's on the same level of Perseverance in that regard

[halcyon tapir]

Pers is only an hour, maybe 2 if you're slow

[radiant bay]

it's definitely extremely long yeah

[neat totem]

I'll see how long this takes

It's a fair point

[halcyon tapir]

I don't have my map on me

[neat totem]

I managed to get 6 hours with a LOT of trial and error

I think going straightforward might cut that down to maybe 2

Maybe less

[halcyon tapir]

@radiant bay did you start from the initial portal in whichever region you started from, or did you start from a vanilla shelter

When doing the actual echoes

[radiant bay]

after taking 3 portals without sleeping you can no longer activate invisibility and therefore can no longer activate the echo at shattered. also, as far as I know, it will never send you to shattered since after taking 4 portals without sleeping, it will always send you to rotted regions, and travelling from rotted regions I believe prioritises sending you to non-rotted regions that you can infect if you've not beaten the rot ending

(at least you can never reach shattered without beating rot ending)

[radiant bay]

started from the start of the game, reached max ripple on cycle 0

[neat totem]

So you managed to do that?

How?

[exotic onyx]

prolly DAKR

[radiant bay]

game saves when you meet echoes

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I mean after the 3 vanilla ones did you start from getting spat out of the echo portal or did you go through it every time from a vanilla shelter

[neat totem]

Yeah but wouldn't you have to chain Echoes as much as possible and not get left in a region too far from Echoes

[radiant bay]

it saves when you first enter a portal after third echo in vanilla world then every time you meet an echo after that

[neat totem]

Like, what was your pathing?

[radiant bay]

correct

[halcyon tapir]

Only if you enter it on the same cycle it spawned

I discovered that sometime yesterday

[radiant bay]

well yeah but obviously I did that every time

cause you can't den so you want to get saves as much as possible

[halcyon tapir]

Ohh yeah true I suppose

If the other echoes aren't reachable

[exotic onyx]

can you rephrase that? Sorry for asking

[radiant bay]

complete prologue, do CC last -> sunlit port -> AR, get echo -> torrid desert, get echo -> get sent to rotted region -> make way from rotted region to region with echo -> get echo -> repeat

[halcyon tapir]

Would it be possible to route in the last echo teleporting you close to shattered/to shattered?

[radiant bay]

if going from the rotted region doesn't send you to a region with an echo (either directly or via outer rim) you can reroll the seed in the remix settings for watcher

[neat totem]

Ah, so you're using seeds

[halcyon tapir]

I'm gonna write a proper breakdown of how it works but basically if you finish the echo dialogue you get the karma boost, you don't have to enter the portal. So if you die or shelter (or quit out I imagine but I haven't actually tested that yet) then come back to the portal, the portal loses whatever properties it had to set your spawn

[exotic onyx]

Couldn't you also bad warp to get another try at rotted region

[neat totem]

How does the game determine what region it sends you to? Isn't it determined by your current Karma?

[exotic onyx]

quitting should work since ripple level is death persistent, like the mark

[halcyon tapir]

Yeah I can't imagine it wouldn't work

[radiant bay]

you can also do that but it would have made the run take a crazy amount of time + each rotted region has a determined location it sends you to so you'll want to flower warp out of rotted regions as much as possible?

[radiant bay]

yeah, but you can cache to regain ripple

[exotic onyx]

can't warp on rotted regions, only exit is the predetermined one

[neat totem]

Doesn't chache involve sheltering

[hard kindle]

for any random warps, there's an annoying number of variables
the seed ofc, but also the cycle you're on, how rotted the room you're in is and how rotted your destinations are, and i think there was more

[neat totem]

OH

Cycle 0, not "no sheltering"

[halcyon tapir]

You can with a karma flower iirc

I did at least once

[neat totem]

Guh

[exotic onyx]

oooh... gotta bring one with you for that

[radiant bay]

yeah, but you can do so by finding a karma flower then going through any warp

[hard kindle]

you can make a single route consistent, but you can't change anything about that route ever

[halcyon tapir]

There's one in the industrial scav storeroom and one in the regular outskirts spot

[exotic onyx]

kk

[halcyon tapir]

[radiant bay]

yeah, I looked through the function, it's really weird

didn't help much, only thing it did was confirm you should always warp at as high ripple as possible

[hard kindle]

ye

just don't die!

[radiant bay]

completing the run without caching is impossible if you die too many times since min ripple only ever sends you to like, coral caves RW and AR

[hard kindle]

(or extensively test your entire route on a specific seed so you can predict the whole thing)

[halcyon tapir]

Btw @exotic onyx frog warp isn't real

[exotic onyx]

I read that karma gates too picky...

[halcyon tapir]

There is still a non eel route that I'm working on currently

Just working out the kinks in testing

[hard kindle]

what ending does it trigger if watcher reaches journey's end

[halcyon tapir]

Neither it just cuts to score screen

[hard kindle]

oh LMAO

you get a score screen though!

[exotic onyx]

do you get any new select screen art?

[halcyon tapir]

Nope

I'm pretty sure anyway

It's been a few days since I tested lol

[exotic onyx]

ugh eel OE warp is SO close to be made real

[halcyon tapir]

Eel OE warp is already real, just incredibly dumb

Watcher warp is gonna be similarly annoying, but mostly in the set up phase

Oh actually

I just realised my entire plan doesn't work how I thought it would

So maybe not

Can rot regions lead to more regions with echoes?

[radiant bay]

yeah, but each rot region's warp destination is set after you go through it once I think

so you'll need some flower warps out of rotted regions to beat the run

also the first one you go to will always take you to OR

[halcyon tapir]

Can you flower warp out of a rotted region with your recharge all purple?

[radiant bay]

which is annoying but does give you four new flower warp destinations from there

[radiant bay]

yeah

[halcyon tapir]

I'd need to get 3 echoes in a single cycle, not including the corrupted one

So aether ridge, torrid desert, then hope for the corrupted region to karma flower warp me to one that has an echo

This shit is getting more difficult by the second

[radiant bay]

first rotted region might always take you to OR?

but also if you enter it with a flower you might just be able to flower warp out

[halcyon tapir]

Not if you flower warp right?

[radiant bay]

yeah

[neat totem]

How does the game determine which rotted region you go to?

[halcyon tapir]

I gotta test I think

[halcyon tapir]

Based on your seed and some other stuff

[radiant bay]

I think it's just random but haven't looked into it

[neat totem]

Why does everything have to be so complicated ;-;

[radiant bay]

it's irrelevant, since going through an echo portal saves the game you can't reroll rotted regions an echo sends you to (for this run)

[halcyon tapir]

I should really wait to do all this routing until we learn more stuff

But also what if they patch out all the glitches I need

[neat totem]

I ask moreso to know if it is current region-dependent

Because then it could be altered by pathing

[radiant bay]

I'll check the code