Phoeniiiiiix do it
#general
heady spear
void void
Nobody cares city
heady spear
Right now I use essentials to test PlotSquared but π
Just a simple economy plugin with 450 commits
static pilot
Best 1k renown r6s defense operator? π
void void
nothing
static pilot
He throws in the towel and goes "fuck it"
golden gust
yes
limber knotBOT
bukkit has been dead for ages lmao
void void
mfw lol
you do realize spigot has to maintain (fork of) bukkit api as well right now?
and paper also maintains a fork of the api already, adding extra methods/events
so what's the issue
limber knotBOT
drop the hostility
static pilot
Paper wouldn't exist without it
I mean they were called paperspigot at one point
limber knotBOT
@static pilot [Auto] We're now known as Paper.
wide chasm
The moment Spigot dies, Paper can simply continue maintaing and expanding the API and server, similar to how Spigot does now that CrafTbukkit is no longer maintained.
golden gust
There are a few turd burgers in here, but, we're not that bad
heady spear
It used to be a lot worse
I actually think paper, as of right now, is one of the least hostile communities
Spigot is a hell of a lot worse.
golden gust
I mean, there's always simple...
Saying that, people just get annoyed with people expecting their hand to be held with 0 effort, so long as you respect the rules and listen, etc, you'll be fine
And, well, respect is like a mirror, that's really all there is to say on that aspect
wide chasm
All rules are guidelines
heady spear
I mean there are also people that are just assholes for no reason, but those people exist in every community
limber knotBOT
...
mighty storm
whos hostile
limber knotBOT
stop baiting
mighty storm
just type /difficulty peaceful smh
wide chasm
No proper rule system functions on a complete unbiased strict system with no ability for leniancy.
heady spear
Also, Paper is built on Spigot partly out of necessity. It's not like it would have been a good idea to create an independent server software while the majority of people were still using spigot
wide chasm
Some bias is to be expected with different moderators, yet the guidelines are specifically in place to decrease such differences.
heady spear
because that would have required plugin developers to add special support for paper
that sounds awful :]
limber knotBOT
glances at Glowstone
golden gust
when paper started many years ago as more of just a bunch of people tryna improve the server software, it was never expected to get anywhere close to this big bar them and a few friends, etc
mighty storm
in a few year or so, devs would have to start adding special support for spigot lol
golden gust
Forking made a lot of sense at the time, given the whole nature of it
These days, forking makes much less sense as it goes on
what?
wide chasm
Could you point to any particular message?
heady spear
Paper would be a lot better without md_5 in charge of the upstream
mighty storm
@fast solstice your message fails to mention what spigot is a fork of: craftbukkit. what about all the craftbukkit devs and all the work they did? without them spigot would have never existed, ever
limber knotBOT
I've yet to see any official hostile message from paper channels, you might want to provide some proof for such claims lmao
heady spear
Not saying md_5 isn't doing important work, but he's not very good at running oss projects π€·ββοΈ
limber knotBOT
of course individuals hold their own views
golden gust
I'd imagine that he did
I mean, his sole reason for spigot was the exact same reason as we run paper; He wasn't happy with how the project was being ran and felt he could do a better job on his own
mighty storm
i also don't understand how we're so "hostile", where do you get that impression? From other people, or from what you gathered in your time here?
chrome quest
Is there a command to temp ban someone?
mighty storm
not without plugins, no
cunning raft
@cunning raft the lad uses eclipse fyi
@minor badge mfw
chrome quest
Will essentialX work?
cunning raft
Yes use EssentialsX!
heady spear
Also uh md_5 puts himself above everyone else in the spigot community and doesnt' really want to play together with anyone else. The fact that he runs spigot like a dictatorship and paper happilly accepts contributions kinda shows the difference in mentality π€·ββοΈ
wide chasm
The majority of people don't
mighty storm
we've had a few community guideline changes to start getting rid of... general rudeness. it didnt stem from "we de best", just people being toxic because no one would stop them
wide chasm
At least in my experience
heady spear
huh? I know of very few projects run as poorly as spigot tbh
limber knotBOT
that's just wrong city, tons of contributions are accepted nowadays
golden gust
He's apparently commited to improving
limber knotBOT
and he listens to community feedback (if it's reasonable lol)
golden gust
I mean, the issue comes is when there is practically only one person who defines "reasonable"
cunning raft
Mention one dev that doesn't do that?
@fast solstice paper, essentials, any of the engine hub stuff, chestshop
limber knotBOT
is it ideal that only a single person runs a community that large? of course not.
heady spear
Well, if he has improved (recently) then that's good.
limber knotBOT
it is easy to improve the situation? no
golden gust
The thing is that none of the important discussions of how to move forward ever end up in the public
heady spear
Last time I saw him speak he said that no contributor thus far has been good enough to get push access to spigot, except for think, which is pretty funny
golden gust
The entire fact that he refuses to release source until he feels like it
cunning raft
^
wide chasm
I'm having a lot less issues with md_5 than in the past, especially when reporting issues. We don't always agree on everything, but the conversations are completely fine.
limber knotBOT
tbh the communnity isn't ready for pre-releases of updates
mighty storm
The entire fact that he refuses to release source until he feels like it
sounds like some premium devs i know π
limber knotBOT
last time that was tried they fucking lost their minds that API might change between pre-release and release
cunning raft
tbh the communnity isn't ready for pre-releases of updates
Don't announce them
golden gust
premiumplugins are a sham anyways
cunning raft
Leave it to stash accounts only
heady spear
indeed they are
cunning raft
People who signed cla
mighty storm
and yeah death to paid plugins tbh
wide chasm
Don't even add it to BuildTools, just put the branch on stash imo
limber knotBOT
I guess that could be a solution
mighty storm
death to paid plugins that violate license*
limber knotBOT
I will stop releasing paid plugins if you guys send ma $1k/month :P
heady spear
and yeah death to paid plugins tbh
developers getting paid is awful
isn't it?
fuck developers they should work for free!!
golden gust
Woah, woah
mighty storm
mighty storm
did i say death to donations or pay for support or something? yall putting words in my mouth
cunning raft
I cannot live without see em eye please don't get rid of pay plugin!!! 1!1!1!1?
heady spear
Paid plugins doesn't mean closed source plugins at all
limber knotBOT
if you want to do it right then add open source paid plugins to Hanger 
cunning raft
I need my $150 value for $15!!!
limber knotBOT
with automatic source code access on purchase
mighty storm
death specificallt to plugin that cost like $298543 but literally tell you to fuck off when you ask for help, which is like, wayyy to many
heady spear
All paid plugins aren't bad. Some paid plugins are. Death to paid plugins implies that all plugins should be available for free
cunning raft
Wouldn't be bad idea phoenix
heady spear
okay that is very different lol
cunning raft
But payment processing is dumb
golden gust
0 plans to deal with paid plugins, but, there is talks about making it possible to push the whole "plz donat"
mighty storm
not far too off from my initial "death to paid plugins that violate license"
cunning raft
Taxes
heady spear
You edited that after I quoted you <.<
golden gust
The issue is that you need a payment provider who will deal with that
mighty storm
nah i made a new message
limber knotBOT
just don't pay em (because you don't have to )
mighty storm
Stripe
heady spear
Well, I definitely agree with that. I think that all plugins should be open sourced and reasonably priced
golden gust
Stripe is not an option
cunning raft
Pretty sure you do if you want to take a cut
limber knotBOT
I don't think paypal cares where the money is coming from
heady spear
I definitely think it's fine to charge for builds, support, etc.
cunning raft
It's just legal fuckery
limber knotBOT
like everyone can just setup a shop in 5 minutes
golden gust
Stripes requirements would literally kill the ability for like the majority of devs to create an account
mighty storm
how does paying with crypto even work, how does it know it came from me
limber knotBOT
(if you don't want to take a cut that is)
cunning raft
Since Paper would have to sit as an intermediate iirc
golden gust
unique payment addresses
limber knotBOT
cβ-hβ-eβ-wβ: you generate a unique address
wide chasm
Imo just having a proper noticeable Donate button which the plugin owner can set a link to is the easiest
golden gust
We can't sit as an intermediate as we don't wanna do that
heady spear
Right, stef, that'd be ideal
limber knotBOT
technically you don't have to: you can generate addresses without knowing the wallets private key
golden gust
We don't wanna deal with money because then we'd need to deal with accounts, etc, and
Have you seen stripes account requirements?
heady spear
The way IS works is that we verify payments and then give them a discord role so that they can ask for help or w/e
cunning raft
Stripe wants your first born child
heady spear
the source is available to everyone so if you don't want to pay, get your command line out
golden gust
Last I saw, they looked far from viable for the majority of plugin devs in terms of applying and dealing with stuff like multiple accounts one site
mighty storm
I use it on the business side
mental meadow
@cunning raft phoenix: done https://github.com/PaperMC/papermc.io/pull/51/commits/e7617d8528596c1ad44c47629f88fee0bfca0573
limber knotBOT
unfortunately making source available directly isn't a valid solution for new plugins. people will just go "why should I pay when I just get it for 'free'"?!?
golden gust
Yes
Because as I said, we don't want to deal with the money
if we deal with the money, we become a business
limber knotBOT
nice :D
mental meadow
Had to use Javascript for it but it seems to work pretty nicely
cunning raft
nice aurora
mighty storm
javascript!! reee!
golden gust
Yea, it's just a rabbit hole of "fuck that"
limber knotBOT
now make twitter dark mode background color the same as the page background!
runs
golden gust
yes
limber knotBOT
Fβreβddβy: that usually doesn't matter to european institutions. if you can withdraw it with real money it's equivalent to real money
heady spear
I don't care if you charge 9 billion USD and a new born for your plugin, as long as it's open sourced I'm happy :3
limber knotBOT
e.g. Paypal has to be a bank in europe to be able to store and do stuff with money lol
literally not but ok
golden gust
No matter how you do it it comes into a logistics nightmare
worn ember
@heady spear hey do you want to buy my clear chat plugin? Its open source
golden gust
Psh, pathetic
twin lagoon
reeeeeeeee
golden gust
You wanna buy my clear chat skript?
chrome quest
If a person is using cheats on a server, will it slow down the server?
worn ember
oh wow excuseee mee, mr skript user
heady spear
I wouldn't ever give money to DED tbh
twin lagoon
a bad anticheat can definitely slowdown the server
worn ember
wtf thats racist
chrome quest
I don't have anticheat, but when this one player gets on the tps drops.
twin lagoon
speed hacks could load in chunks at a very fast pace which could potentially slowdown the server
heady spear
Hey have u heard about this awesome anticheat by vagdaddy called sportin or spurton or whatever
twin lagoon
spart00n
heady spear
it's really good because he has removed the nullpointerexceptions now
mighty storm
ban them then
twin lagoon
chew how's rory
heady spear
did you know that multithreaded programming causes more nullpointerexceptions because it's hard to keep track of the variables?
mighty storm
i stole her because she was screaming but she left
twin lagoon
chrome quest
He goes all over the map so it's not something in he's area.
heady spear
but he fixed that because he's an awesome programmer and it's a quality plugin
so it's now worth all the moneys
mighty storm
some hacks cause tps drops so i just nuke them off my server immediately
heady spear
Don't plz
static pilot
You mean mineacademy?
worn ember
if(tps < 20) kickplayer();
static pilot
great entrepreneur
cunning raft
You're poking the bear Freddy
static pilot
I aspire to be like him when I'm his age
heady spear
I too would like to scam kids when I'm older
twin lagoon
@fast solstice https://mineacademy.net
static pilot
Not really scamming
chrome quest
Don't scam kids. Scam people in college.
heady spear
It kinda is tho
heady spear
He's claiming to teach them to program properly, meanwhile he... doesn't?
static pilot
That's like saying JetBrains Academy is scamming people
worn ember
It's not even legal, he has permanent sales etc, he's taking work from companies and using it in his courses etc
mighty storm
Don't scam kids. Scam people in college.
@chrome quest i agree if youre in college and still get scammed that's kinda on you
cunning raft
No, jetbrains teaches you properly
heady spear
Oh, funny tho, he had his staff take the jetbrains academy courses
heady spear
to "improve" his courses
static pilot
Brb r6
heady spear
He's claiming to sell one product, but the actual product is very different. It's a scam.
golden gust
I mean, EA's "buy half the game and pay for the rest with a 1kb DLC..."
mighty storm
buy the puzzle, but not the pieces 
worn ember
1kb? more like 60gb of patches
heady spear
All u learn is shitty practices and to be dependent on his foundation library lol
vernal moth
Do we really need to rehash the memeacademy topic every week? Lol
worn ember
yes, its mandatory
minor badge
helo martin
heady spear
we should, until it's gone from the internet
mighty storm
this easily tops the top 10 bruh moments of all time
mental meadow
Just a quick reminder: You can make fun of companies all you want, but attacking people is off limits π
mighty storm
who is martin
minor badge
mini is
mental meadow
MiniMartin
golden gust
But, in general, people say what they think, and mineacademy is literally just comical when you see anything public of his, he really doesn't look like somebody who should be teaching people
mighty storm
Martini
worn ember
wow doxxing mini, plz ban proxi
minor badge
π
mighty storm
i aint got perms
worn ember
π
minor badge
@heady spear uwu
heady spear
I mean he also files fake dmca claims to get rid of criticism against him
sooo
@minor badge owo
golden gust
apparently 90% of the course is "how to build against my perfect 10/10 core uber library"
mighty storm
where's the course on how to pet rory
twin lagoon
I mean he also files fake dmca claims to get rid of criticism against him
@heady spear technically his DMCA was valid
but still stupid
golden gust
- Wait, I think these are the wrong instructions...
cunning raft
Also the whole learning Java only against bukkit is a shit show that causes the dumbassery that is spigot help
golden gust
learning java against bukkit is fine
minor badge
can confirm, learnt java thru bukkit and really didn't help me in exploring more of the ecosystem
golden gust
The issue is that most people who have the experience to actually teach java are generally making dollars in this community doing java
Anything you can do in a typical dev environment, you can do in a plugin
cunning raft
I should be more clear, being spoonfed how to do specific things in bukkit without knowing how to google and only knowing how to copy paste is bad
golden gust
That's not learning
heady spear
anyway I'm gonna go make dinner bye nerds
golden gust
that's regurgitating
cunning raft
Exactly cat
worn ember
Learning to google is 50% of your course tbh
if you cant help yourself you'll not get far in development
golden gust
That's part of the issue why majority of the stuff around learning to dev in this community is trash, as it's more "watch me how I implement X and copy me as you go!"
The thing is, there is 0 reason why you couldn't learn java around bukkit, it provides a much more fun environment to test stuff than staring at a CLI
cunning raft
Yeah
golden gust
Just, the problem is that people want to skip the foundations and people who are trying to teach in this community generally have half a clue of the principles
limber knotBOT
I learned java from plugins... but I was able to program before that lol
heady spear
Wait what Iβve paid $10 a month for wolfram
I could have donated that money to aurora
Smh
mighty storm
Or me smh
golden gust
who are you?
heady spear
Wait chew r u enrolled in the github simp programme?
mighty storm
Ye since June
minor badge
imagine being a simpee
twin lagoon
heady spear
wide chasm
Problem with learning Java against Bukkit is that you end up having to figure out issues in your code surrounding both Java and Bukkit and good luck to separate those.
golden gust
The one thing that pisses me off learning from bukkit stuff
minor badge
so here i am hating on anyone who does :>
golden gust
@Deprecated
wide chasm
That surely must mean that this is API /s
void void
Might be a weird question
mighty storm
worn ember
I love it when they put that annotation, but dont mention what you should be doing then
minor badge
i use deprecated handily, but only for that which is A) unstable and probably not gonna stay (guava Beta otherwise), or B) going to be removed
void void
But do any one of you lovely people use Crystal
golden gust
People learn that deprecated means jack shit in this community, because it's in such stupid places, than when you actually do use it, it's like "People just told me to ignore it"
minor badge
@heady spear how to become simpee
mighty storm
She did
limber knotBOT
deprecated doesn't mean it will be removed
wide chasm
Bukkit's Deprecated is really just a "please read the docs"
minor badge
deprecating for quite a while is fine if it's not a maintenance cost
limber knotBOT
it means "read the docs on why the warning is here"
void void
Do anyone of you use crystal-lang.org
limber knotBOT
if it says "will be removed" then don't use it
mental meadow
you can become a simp here proxi https://github.com/sponsors/aurorasmiles π₯Ί
limber knotBOT
if it says nothing then it should be treated as "will be removed"
that's what one should lear: read the fucking docs
minor badge
a simpEE
wide chasm
Problem is that they also slap it on stuff that you should continue to use, which makes programming just more annoying
minor badge
someone whom people can simp for
mighty storm
She is PURRING
limber knotBOT
having a striken through method/field name in your code isn't really annoying
wide chasm
You don't need to tell me via a Deprecated annotation that players can change their names, thank you.
worn ember
shes also closer to death every day, dont forget that
heady spear
ok making food now fr bye dumbos
limber knotBOT
if your compiler/ide refrains from accessing it then get a better one
wide chasm
It is, because it looks like I'm doing something wrong, which I'm not.
limber knotBOT
cough not Eclipe cough
cunning raft
Eclipse 
twin lagoon
@mental meadow uwu fix your twitter link on sponsor
wide chasm
You either surpress the warning, creating clutter, or get compiler warnings, creating clutter.
twin lagoon
wicked granite
Well, I use Eclipse.
mighty storm
wide chasm
The warning is maybe nice for newer people, but is a complete pain for anyone who knows what they're doing surrounding the method.
limber knotBOT
I get zero warnings in IntelliJ besides the strikethrough
wide chasm
I get a warning while compiling
wide chasm
Pretty sure IntelliJ also complains for me, though
limber knotBOT
wide chasm
I don't mind it complaining for a valid deprecated notice, because then I probably want to change the method invocation to the better supported one, yet that isn't possible here.
mental meadow
github dum @twin lagoon
limber knotBOT
IntelliJ understands me: https://phoenix616.dev/π·/fIDiVe6G.png ;D
cunning raft
@mental meadow use markdown link format
limber knotBOT
at least newer java versions allow for more descriptive annotations... but it can be years until the Minecraft community moves (or Mojang uses java 15 in the next update, who knows)
cunning raft
Doubt they'd branch out of LTS
void void
probs not
wide chasm
Yeah, the new stuff is better, but as long as I get an annoying warning I don't want it, you don't have to warn people for everything they could do wrong.
limber knotBOT
I don't think mojang cares about LTS, they ship their own JVM anyways
mental meadow
fixed it π
twin lagoon
what plugin
limber knotBOT
is that FAWE?
twin lagoon
oh
limber knotBOT
wide chasm
Nice description
golden gust
wat
wide chasm
lol
limber knotBOT
I only support GPLv3 projects
golden gust
I mean, I've not seen anybody talking trash about it
limber knotBOT
runs
golden gust
I mean, there is the whole "if you're using TAB, remove it or update it" on literally every update these days as it breaks entities
twin lagoon
yeah
mental meadow
Brainstone is nice
golden gust
I mean, I'm guessing you're a handful of people who cares to actually update their stuff
slim nymph
man firefox sure has went down hardcore
firefox currently has a bug you cant even reload the page reliably
golden gust
Majority of people come in here and update day 1 before tab has been updated, or just refuse to do the whole "update", so it's the first plugin we generally ask people about if they come in saying that entities are being weird
Props that he fixes stuff, but, would be nice if he had a bail out system instead of blowing up silently
slim nymph
we ran into a bug where actions on ANOTHER TAB is breaking an existing tabs history, where location.reload(true) is sending you back instead of reloading the page
wide chasm
I think I found the first sane server owner
slim nymph
weve tried all kinds of hacks, such as history.pushState(null, null, location.href), history.go(0), etc. even location = location.href; doesnt work if you have hash on the url
wide chasm
(Guessing you are a server owner)
golden gust
i refuse to believe that there is such a thing
limber knotBOT
I just replace plugins with my own so that I don't have to check for updates
wide chasm
I'm subscribed to some Spigot resource pages, but generally don't need to worry about that since I don't run a server
void void
@wide chasm Do you remember TheLightMC?
wide chasm
No, can't remember it
If it's a server could be that I played on their some time ago, though, since I sometimes just go through random servers to find something to do for a couple hours
minor badge
github sponsors won't open the tax form π
twin lagoon
@minor badge uwu
void void
Stef be nimble, Stef be quick, Stef fucked up the GitHub commit
limber knotBOT
wide chasm
Did I mess up yet another commit?
Wouldn't be the first time
Pretty sure I managed to rewrite history 5 times with the first PR I made to Paper.
warm anchor
This is unreal. 3090 sold out instantly too 
literally scrapler outside of shop trying to sell them for $2500 lol
heady spear
phoenix is it on github? :DDD
limber knotBOT
not yet, currently testing it
heady spear
imagine testing your stuff
limber knotBOT
because that has more stuff that I don't need
heady spear
imagine not making your own stuff
void void
plotz
limber knotBOT
wow, wtf. why does VaultAPI suggest to use jitpack now?!?
this is going to fuck over so many people lmao
heady spear
I don't know why it got yeeted.
however it was closed source and "premium", bound to go away eventually
limber knotBOT
no
heady spear
it predates jitpack by like 52 years
limber knotBOT
they used their own repo which went offline a while ago
static pilot
Doesn't the EssX repo has it now
limber knotBOT
should've just tried to get it into central or oss.sonaforge
limber knotBOT
I try to avoid touching that repo lmao
limber knotBOT
(also it's in my own so I don't care Β―_(γ)_/Β―)
he hasn't been receptive to input previously so Β―_(γ)_/Β―
xD
now to fix the actual bug that I was meant to fix -.-
"plguin" π
void void
Some pretty shit code if I do say so myself
limber knotBOT
thanks!
void void
You spelled "plugin" as plguin btw
mighty storm
thought it was penguin
heady spear
ur welcome
limber knotBOT
π
heady spear
k so the cloud benchmarking stuff was neat, I think I should compare it to brigadier and some other fairly standardised command dispatcher :3
slim nymph
worrying about performance of command dispatch is silly
unless your performance blows ass on just dispatching, then fix it
limber knotBOT
mfw a plugin outputs an error message but never hits the breakpoints at the only places causing that
heady spear
everything from string parsing to end of execution of a command with 100 string literals being read from the input queue took 18000ns
slim nymph
yes and who cares lol
heady spear
I am more than happy with the performance π€·ββοΈ
slim nymph
the latency of client to execution is going to be 50-150ms
heady spear
Considering I spent a reasonable amount of time designing the data structure for efficiency, I really do
vernal moth
So be fair, designing an efficient datastructure isn't primaries optimization
heady spear
There's a difference between tweaking stuff for performance writing performant code to begin with π€·ββοΈ
vernal moth
Premature even
slim nymph
designing custom data structures over simple data structures that work just fine is
heady spear
Okay I did switch out a for loop for a tree set π
I designed it to make common operations easier to deal with
the fact that it's not slow wasn't a priority, it's just a perk
To be clear, by efficient I meant the fact that shit is stored in a way that makes it easy to traverse and access. There could (should, and is) be a reasonable amount of overhead during the tree walk, and this is where most of the time is spent. Had this been slow, that would have been concerning. It isn't however, so that's why I'm happy.
Right, but if you constantly find yourself needing to rewrite stuff, there's clearly a problem somewhere
especially if this happens as soon as you need a new feature, etc
golden gust
The question is more,"why are you rewriting code"
quasi valley
"I finished this project but don't want to fix bugs, let's just rewrite from scratch"
golden gust
Like, once on an old project here and there, sure
but, if you consistently find yourself rewriting code to add a new feature, you should question if that's just inherient to the feature you're adding, or, if there are ways you can design this better to cope with future changes
I mean
green edge
honestly, i've seen many projects bugged with so much useless code and with bodge bug fixes, I see the justification.
golden gust
Mojang seems to think 1.16 is finished
green edge
Now that doesn't mean rewriting each update
quasi valley
it's finished when it does what it's supposed to do
green edge
but i agree that it should be done a lot more often
generally you learn as you go
and when you rewrite you're at a better stage than you've intially developed at
so it's not learning during the recode, it's using what you learned to do it
golden gust
I mean, I'm less dumb than I was 2 years ago, etc, is expected
Just, you should aim to design stuff so that adding features in the future won't send you off the refactoring cliff where possible
green edge
that's not good
if you're designing infrastructure during development, not the best solution
now you know your niche better than I, but 2 days is a really small interval that I personally think could be skipped
ah
that's reasonable
golden gust
Mini v2
minor badge
i've sadly been agile for a while without knowing it π
heady spear
real companies whose only objective is monetary gain^
minor badge
idk abt that
quasi valley
literally the minecraft community
heady spear
I rewrite stuff if I find myself wanting to replace a module. I don't just randomly find myself needing to rewrite parts of a system
quasi valley
working for free
heady spear
if you find yourself doing that quite often, you should prolly reconsider how you work π€·ββοΈ
mighty storm
π
minor badge
yeah city-sama~
heady spear
Old enough to use my brain before pooping out code
mighty storm
ah you must be 45
quasi valley
wat
mighty storm
freddy youre probably half his age what are you on about
minor badge
guess who's read <poet from the 1800s>
heady spear
Or old enough to not be a shitty engineer π€·ββοΈ
quasi valley
of course you rewrite stuff in the beginning, but if you write well thought out code in the beginning you... dont
then you're a bad developer
green edge
when you start arguing about age
sharp sentinel
Rewriting code can be a sign of a good developer tbh
quasi valley
then understand what you're doing??
vernal moth
refactoring is a powerful skill
heady spear
We never said that it's a bad thing. We're saying that if you constantly find yourself needing to rewrite everything then you're doing something wrong
green edge
don't your clients have relatively similar requirements?
quasi valley
you're talking as if literally noone will ever fully understand what they're doing
mighty storm
usually i blindly have an idea of what i want done, do it, then when i learn how to do it better, come back and make it better
sharp sentinel
Code thatβs cheap to delete is much more valuable than code thatβs super reusable
Although yeah if youβre rewriting without change in scope etc then itβs a bad sign
heady spear
That's exactly my point
I'm certainly not opposed to rewriting major parts of my code base. That's what I've spent the majority of this year doing. Why? Because the project evolved beyond what could possibly be expected. However, that doesn't mean I have to constantly second guess myself while working, to replace stuff.
quasi valley
we don't cat
golden gust
Listen here kneky
quasi valley
sharp sentinel
If youβre rewriting something without a solid business use case, youβre not being a βgoodβ developer in an employability sense
golden gust
AS you can see
My brain is 10/10, so, I have nothing to say to you
and, you're not worth my time trying to come up with something
heady spear
What you shouldn't need to do is constantly change API contracts however because then you're the devil
sharp sentinel
Refactors are basically dead time. If they allow for a feature thatβs wanted, or are required to fix a bug, sure.
heady spear
change implementations however much you want, no one bloody cares
but don't be evil π
golden gust
anybody remember when plotsquared was a thing?
sharp sentinel
But the primary goal of code is to deliver functionality, not βgood codeβ. So dedicate time to functionality not rewriting
green edge
at the same time if you expect your client to require further revisions, it's a good idea to plan ahead
golden gust
and that's the story of craftbook
sharp sentinel
Not necessarily
heady spear
I agree Me. Rewriting for the sake of rewriting is a waste of time
sharp sentinel
Write code thatβs cheap to delete, not future-proof
green edge
everything starts from the client
mighty storm
primary? definitely not. a goal? sure
sharp sentinel
Future proofing something is often a waste of time unless itβs a major architectural decision
But even then can be a bad idea
wide chasm
points to You Ain't Gonna Need It
heady spear
Also, PlotSquared has held up fine for the last six years. We decided to clean it up right now, because Minecraft has changed a lot since 2014 and we now need to adapt for change in platforms (Sponge and Cloudburst)
golden gust
Ideally, your stuff should be written so it lasts
But, at the same point, you gotta accept that sometimes that's just not viable
green edge
all of the things we're discussing now are highly dependent on the client and industry
vernal moth
I often refactor to extract code that I want to reuse elsewhere
heady spear
So I wouldn't call PlotSquared shitty code by any means π€·ββοΈ There's a reason we've gained a plot plugin monopoly :3
vernal moth
I also am paid by time sooooo π
green edge
so i'm not sure if there's any set requirement for what clients want
some want something that works and fast, some want something they can rely on today and in 1 year
heady spear
yes because plotme was abandoned and matt joined IS π€·ββοΈ
golden gust
It's sorta like if apple's entire building and backups where destroyed, and people realised that linux was literally the worst
sharp sentinel
If youβre writing code to do anything more than the clientβs requirements youβre wasting time
golden gust
windows would win solely for the point that it's literally the only OS left worth looking at
I mean
sharp sentinel
Lmao implying banks rewrite code
heady spear
banks are the worst example of that
sharp sentinel
Youβve clearly never seen a bankβs code base
golden gust
needs more cobol
heady spear
they're literally notorious for running 40 year old code on mainframes
limber knotBOT
if your bank is older then 5 years then good luck lol
sharp sentinel
Modern banks still often use old systems for payment processing
heady spear
I'd rather go with an old established bank π
sharp sentinel
Mostly because of regulatory issues
mighty storm
yall use banks?
wide chasm
Shiny outside stuff may be modern and cool, but internal stuff...
limber knotBOT
iirc most of the German banks run on some modern-ish third party backend nowadays
(at least the modern german banks)
mighty storm
i just run everything though bitcoin ezpz π
golden gust
I'm with monzo
limber knotBOT
I use bitcoin.de's bank lol
golden gust
Apparently they where using some card payment service thing but ended up building their own in-house solution due to all the downtime issues here and there
sharp sentinel
But βno need to rewrite code, as long as it worksβ is actually a somewhat good practice. Dedicating engineering resources to a rewrite should be a last-case situation. Itβs expensive and halts feature work
green edge
it depends on what "as long as it works" means for your client
because again that's where we end up and things differ on that end
sharp sentinel
As long as it works means fits requirements
wide chasm
Rewrite code when you need to work with it and you notice it's bad is usually my go-to solution. I'm not gonna overhaul massive parts of a codebase, but if I need to do work on some part and I notice the code is bad, I redo that small part.
green edge
some clients want something they can further work on, so it's your job as a service provider to catch if that's the case and dedicate resources on it
now i'm not saying spend half of the time of your project on making it future proof
sharp sentinel
If youβre client requests something extensible sure, but thatβs not making it future proof. Thatβs literally just fulfilling the requirements
sharp sentinel
Making it future proof refers to writing stuff in generic ways to allow potential further changes that you donβt know of yet
Unless itβs a hard roadmap item, it should be treated as not happening
mighty storm
@fast solstice thats how a lot of companies work tbh, they start simple, everyone flocks to them because theyre simple and everyone is complicated, then they keep adding new things and suddenly theyre like the rest
it'show trello got so popular
god i hope thats not a direct quote
wide chasm
Well I imagine that got in the bin pretty much directly after sending (on their end)
minor badge
cause it's full of security issues
quasi valley
wat
minor badge
make facebook 2 then
green edge
product shouldn't look stale on the frontend
limber knotBOT
Google did it poorly
minor badge
you're saying it's a simple as fuck concept, so make it
limber knotBOT
G+ was actually good imo but them forcing it on everyone is what drove many people away
(and the whole privacy issue of course lol)
minor badge
if google+ would've had a simpler way to access it, i'd probably have joined it
cunning raft
Google never pushed it in an effective marketing way
minor badge
but alas, i had problems figuring out how to get to the profile page to change my pfp
limber knotBOT
did you not have a google account?
cunning raft
The G+ team was always small and they never marketed it
mighty storm
it just kinda,, existed
cunning raft
If they wanted to they could have totally made it work
static pilot
You're taking it a bit far Me4502, no one has ever said that you should future proof everything you make. It's odd how much stuff you guys answer thats never been asked or mentioned.
@fast solstice troll
limber knotBOT
oh access it like that, I see
I personally felt that it was pretty straight forward but them trying to link everything and moving profile menus to different platforms and shit was a huge issue imo
mighty storm
it's a joke in every sense tbh
limber knotBOT
like you still to this day need to use google plus profiles to change your youtube channel avatar iirc
cunning raft
TikTok isn't a joke code wise lmao
Very well built code wise
Just shit platform
It's not open source
limber knotBOT
I wouldn't doubt chinese surveillance code is pretty top notch lol
cunning raft
And why are you the authority in this.
mighty storm
inb4 he's secret discord staff working for the chinese government
cunning raft
Tencent π₯Ί
limber knotBOT
what is "serious code"?
cunning raft
So you can call it a joke but have never seen it
limber knotBOT
are you talking math algorithms or something?
mighty storm
thats.. what you're saying
cunning raft
YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE CODE
quasi valley
no, we know what you said, and no, also just implementing their concepts isn't
limber knotBOT
also Facebook's mobile app has tons of pretty smart hacky stuff to make it compatible with all platforms at once (and bloat it extremely but that's besides the point)
mighty storm
π‘ but unironically
cunning raft
Holy shit
minor badge
@mighty storm can i please
mighty storm
i aint mod do ya thing
forest elm
Any redstone experts out here? π
minor badge
oh huh
waxen panther
minor badge
i guess i am now π
wide chasm
Probably not, but ask away
static pilot
mighty storm
whatcha need frued
minor badge
?kick @fast solstice Trolling / elitism
leaden oxideBOT
Freddy#9264 was kicked | Trolling / elitism
cunning raft
forest elm
So I have a setup of observers that have items in front of it. I want to check when all the observers have no items in front
and then trigger something
wide chasm
Are those items in hoppers or something?
forest elm
no
wide chasm
Where are they then? Other container, as an entity in the world?
forest elm
entity in front
minor badge
you could try an AND gate on the head and tail hoppers?
wide chasm
You'll need something like a pressure plate or tripwire to detect items being there, observers only detect block updates.
limber knotBOT
that's not how observers work
wide chasm
And then just a giant AND gate like Proxi said
limber knotBOT
they only observe block changes/updates
static pilot
Wtf
forest elm
ye it is a block
mental meadow
yes
wide chasm
Then, what has that block to do with items?
limber knotBOT
have you never used a pan?
cunning raft
have you ever seen a hotdog
limber knotBOT
π
minor badge
i was thinking you were cooking it in the oven now
mental meadow
are they smoked?
minor badge
maybe preparing to fry them kek
forest elm
let me take a photo
static pilot
no theyre classic
mental meadow
usually hotdogs are smoked
minor badge
yall have smoked hot dogs?
forest elm
minor badge
meat eaters are some interesting folks
mental meadow
Yes, they are still partly smoked
minor badge
cakes can be used with a comparator i believe
mental meadow
thats how you make them
forest elm
when all cakes are broken do x
void void
hotcake
green edge
use a comparator
wide chasm
Yes, use comparators for that
forest elm
oh?
mental meadow
That's where they get the red color from
void void
fruitcake
green edge
comparator pointing to cake
wide chasm
Otherwise, you're going to need to do complicated counting setups with resets
green edge
then 1 layer redstone
minor badge
the simplest way would just be comparator + repeater into redstone to know if any are there still
green edge
and repeater
forest elm
how to use comparetors π
wide chasm
The two redstone torches you see on the texture is the side of the input, the side with only one redstone torch is the output.
mental meadow
?ban 209828324401348608 Troll, ban after already received a kick as a warning.
leaden oxideBOT
Freddy#9264 was banned | Troll, ban after already received a kick as a warning.
green edge
minor badge
sorry, NMF, they just really like cake
mossy vessel
Understandable
mighty storm
seems kinda expensive to be using netherite blocks
slim nymph
red hot dogs you say
void void
mighty storm
did a thing
slim nymph
in the south we only ate red hot dogs lol
mental meadow
Aikar, but those look like artificial skins
void void
candy
slim nymph
ive never seen an equiv to red hots
mental meadow
yeah thats def artificial skin
void void
do u use mayo with them?
slim nymph
i have yeah, but mostly avoiding processed crap now
void void
i like to mix it with ketchup and mayo
static pilot
I eat my bacon egg and cheese with ketchup and mayo
mental meadow
Oh wait
omg
they are skinless
They cook & smoke them with a cellulose skin and remove it afterwards
wtf
static pilot
bacon egg and cheese good
tired heath
Just got an old video that I almost forgot. Yes, ofunny built a mansion and two mates explored it while I was sleeping, while one of them (a known Griefer) did'nt know that there was a redstone line right to hes house in the village. Well, that's what happens if you ignore all warning signs. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uanXt0AoePYdB7wOxiiBNh-MC9DqIim5/view
void void
embed plz
limber knotBOT
at least you can play it in the browser, not like discord videos lmao
mental meadow
in america?`yea probably
golden gust
Just, in general
mental meadow
my father is actually a butcher so I do sadly know a bit about that stuff
mighty storm
Replying to https://canary.discordapp.com/channels/289587909051416579/555469074080202765/758719509971337216
or is youtube using google tech and so is drive π€
golden gust
Reminds me of bangers & mash here
They only call them bangers because they're not legally allowed to call them sausages due to the meat requirements
void void
π«π
golden gust
mental meadow
There are sausages out of ThΓΌringen (a state in germany) called ThΓΌringer and apparently that is a "geographical trademark" in germany, so even if you make ThΓΌringer you're not allowed to call them like that unless you make them in ThΓΌringen, so instead you have to call them ThΓΌringer Art
golden gust
Cornish pasties are like that over her too iirc
vernal moth
the geographical trademark thing is an EU thing
also applies to shit like champagner or parmesan and stuff
mental meadow
yea
mental meadow
at least we are allowed to make WeiΓwΓΌrste
vernal moth
heady spear
Also feta cheese :3
mental meadow
Lol
vernal moth
yep
heady spear
Which is why they just call it goat and sheep cheese if itβs not from Greece lol
vernal moth
and its customer protecting, you dont want to buy feta made by the dutch!
heady spear
Absolutely not. I want mine to be made and packaged by Greek goats
Oh oracle released tribuo on GitHub
https://github.com/oracle/tribuo
This is pretty cool
limber knotBOT
even more important: under Apache 2.0
heady spear
Oracle have started to embrace GitHub lol
limber knotBOT
so their logo is basically a rotated kotlin logo?
heady spear
Doesnβt most of their recent shit use Apache 2.0?
mental meadow
limber knotBOT
also I don't get why they didn't name it "kotling" but Β―_(γ)_/Β―
vernal moth
graals licencing is more complicated tho
red imp
Hi guys, don't you know any ftp client that allows cross server (1 server to second server) file sharing?
vernal moth
ftp?!
novel horizon
No Hicoria pls worst hosting
vernal moth
you prolly just want to rsync your files from one server to the other
red imp
Martin I want to move files from one to another π
novel horizon
or if you have dedic, just compress it, move it to website, download it, uncompress π€·
red imp
don't
novel horizon
I thought you have dedic
red imp
need to move it from vps to server, ideally instantly to the second server
vernal moth
again, thats what rsync can do
red imp
without moving it to my pc
oh it's programm
I didn't know what are you talking about π
vernal moth
yeah, rsync is the #1 tool to sync files and folders across machines
novel horizon
Rsync is great, but it depends on what you can do, should work fine for vps/dedic
limber knotBOT
rsync, scp and ftp can all access ftp if you only can use that
vernal moth
allows you to compress your traffic so its smaller/faster
red imp
does it work on windows?
novel horizon
yeah probably sftp
red imp
one is sftp, second is prob. ftp
novel horizon
novel horizon
Downloaded what
onyx onyx
sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, where do we apply to get a guild on #community-guilds I couldn't find a place on #welcome or the website
twin lagoon
what is your guild
vernal moth
you don't really apply
onyx onyx
Dynmap
twin lagoon
vernal moth
if you are notable somebody adds it I guess
twin lagoon
link?
onyx onyx
limber knotBOT
Rβenβzoβtoβm: just run it via your terminal
onyx onyx
mikeprimm is the owner of the guild I'm just an admin
novel horizon
I think he wants to use it on Windows though π€
twin lagoon
ah
novel horizon
Does he have one windows one linux vps/dedic π ?
limber knotBOT
well the cygwin bin is right there Β―_(γ)_/Β―
twin lagoon
i mean i guess it would fit the community guilds thing
lean kiln
I think kashike decides what goes in #community-guilds
vernal moth
@onyx onyx ill bring it up internally
onyx onyx
thanks!
vernal moth
I can't promise anything tho, the guilds up there are from projects that work together with us on stuff, if we would be adding every (albeit big) plugin, it would kinda explode
lean kiln
I feel like it's warranted kinda with the amount of people in here that ask for dynmap support
onyx onyx
yeah I figured, mike is an old spigot dev and figured I ask anyways
lean kiln
Ive linked their discord a couple times personally
vernal moth
yeah, that could be a factor
onyx onyx
I know dynmap support leaks everywhere due to how confusing it can be
onyx onyx
well yeah, but you probably have port forwarded something before or know how to read instructions π
worn ember
its just that people dont read the documentation and then go "reee it no werk plz halp"
vernal moth
anything that uses an additional port is support intensive π
onyx onyx
to be fair the documentation is not fantastic - something I've been actively working on
vernal moth
like, I dont want to run a vote listener plugin, lmao
worn ember
i made an entire doc for my plugin and i still get questions about shit thats literally covered on the first line
lean kiln
and then theres tux with a vote listener plugin, and velocity
worn ember
like come on bruh at least try
vernal moth
yeah, go ask tux how he feels about that, lol
onyx onyx
I've started replying with google searches that bring up the answer
vernal moth
then ppl think you are an ass
vernal moth
idk, I am happy that I didn't need to support ppl in the past
now that I have stuff ppl actually use (minimessage), I still just kinda ignore open issues, lmao
worn ember
mind you, this is for a freaking rtp plugin, it cant be that confusing
minor badge
@onyx onyx it's been brought up internally ^^ we'll get back to you sometime later
worn ember
just ping mini 5 times on discord with issues until he replies
onyx onyx
thanks!
vernal moth
I reply to open an issue DED π
heady spear
this is why you charge for support :3
minor badge
city π
worn ember
wait, thats illegal
vernal moth
I don't want to charge for minimessage, lol
heady spear
wait what r u bringing up internally?
lean kiln
what does this mean π
heady spear
are you finally banning DED? π
onyx onyx
ded
worn ember
no u
vernal moth
heady spear
what
cant even read
heady spear
what am I supposed to read
worn ember
minor badge
@ancient bolt https://github.com/twilight-rs/twilight you might find this kinda interesting 
mighty storm
Are youst
heady spear
I'm clearly missing some context here you moron @worn ember
cedar spade
brb making essx depend on minimessage so we can yell at mini
worn ember
then go find it you bigger moron
heady spear
it's warranted
what is warranted?!
lean kiln
that sounds scary
heady spear
you need to bribe him with gym selfies
worn ember
cuz thats illegal
onyx onyx
i hate pings
onyx onyx
so i don't ping others unless they tell me to
worn ember
ping me π
lean kiln
speaking of citys discord let me go ping him
cedar spade
@worn ember no
worn ember
heady spear
k im gonna attempt to finalise the cloud feature set tonight so I can start advertising it on all forums
marble lark
Hey question
Why does my IDE keep breaking the spacing in the patch files that I submit to Paper
left swift
Add deds syncchunkload plugin
marble lark
It always reduces the spacing from 4 spaces to 1
minor badge
welcome to the world of eclipse
marble lark
or it adds whitespaces which i never added
minor badge
it does not care about the whitespace formatting in the rest of the file :)
minor badge
intellij does its best at guessing, but i've never seen it fail on tabs & spaces; only 2 vs 4 spaces
marble lark
kneny keeps making fun of me for having broken spacing every time I submit a PR lmao
sigh
vernal bone
Nvidia dirver installer is actually so trash
twin lagoon
@minor badge u @mental meadow w @mighty storm u
mighty storm
thats kinda excessive ngl
twin lagoon
chew hates us
minor badge
the trans cockroach is epic
mental meadow
minor badge
i dont remember from whom i stole it
golden gust
?permabunnoapple @twin lagoon
mental meadow
twin lagoon
left swift
?penpineappleapplepen cat
mental meadow
left swift
Ah yes
twin lagoon
epic
minor badge
epic
cunning raft
@minor badge yo
minor badge
@cunning raft hey
green turret
Tomorrow I'm looking at an apartment!
However!
It's more expensive and doesn't have a nearby forest. Perhaps neighbors can't be heard though.
ancient bolt
green turret
I thought you were talking about the new apartment. But I don't know why you would find that interesting either.
mighty storm
Hello mule!
green turret
Except if you genuinely cared about me and my well being. Which I don't know why you wouldn't unless you are very cold hearted.
Hello Ollie!
mighty storm
Good to see you moving to a new apartment, can I have your old one I need somewhere to live
green turret
I won't necessarily move. I'm just going to a... showing?
golden gust
I heard that there's a bridge near yours welcoming to trolls
green turret
Also you probably don't want to live here. People speak Danish and the upstairs neighbor sucks.
mighty storm
Probably not as bad as my family
green turret
There are no bridges here!
left swift
Better get building
mental meadow
Chew come move in with Alice an me
dim shadow
so guys
whats the best 1.8 combat plugin?
my players started a movement for 1.8 combat so i wanna try it out
quasi valley
don't use OldCombatMechanics
tho I don't think there actually are any good plugins for that, because it's easiest and best done in the server itself
dim shadow
ow ;-;
yeah downgrading to 1.8 would be the best i guess... im looking for second best option
-_- @quasi valley
mental meadow
Ban them
dim shadow
uwotm8
mental meadow
The players that want that
dim shadow
-____-
quasi valley
-_____________-
dim shadow
i mean ive been doing research on it
saw a bunch of youtube vids on why 1.8 is more competitive
whats your arguments for 1.9 combat? @quasi valley @mental meadow
quasi valley
use Fabric on the combat snapshots
lean kiln
Fukkit β’οΈ
dim shadow
i mean id rather stick to paper
unless either of those are paper based
then i might consider it
quasi valley
no that was a joke
lean kiln
Fukkit is paper on fabric but that project is kind of a joke