folia-help

[ashen spear]

i am just curious

how it handle

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[ashen spear]

1k players on 32 threads xeon server

[fair merlin]

Make sure to read the readme and FAQ and pins in here.

[ashen spear]

💀

[ashen spear]

done

[floral oyster]

lol

[fair merlin]

Well you definitely hadn't read all the pins, because one of the pins tells you that there's no builds available :)

Feel free to build and test it. Report any bugs, etc.

[ashen spear]

i did after you said lol

[hard vector]

Hello. I have i5-12500. Can folia run on this?

[ashen spear]

you need more cores

[floral oyster]

It can, but not well, and it's not worth it lol

[ashen spear]

its better on things

like eypc i think

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[ashen spear]

cause folia runs better on more cores

i think

[floral oyster]

Yes. Read the readme.

[hard vector]

So 12 threads is not enought?

[ashen spear]

no

[fair merlin]

Read the pins.

cat can you change the topic to something like "Please read the pins and readme on the repo"?

[viral stone]

2023

[fair merlin]

I apparently can't change channel topics.

[viral stone]

reading

[fair merlin]

Yeah but if I say "read topic" then it covers both

Which'll be nice :)

[ashen spear]

💀

[fair merlin]

Okay you copied and pasted I should have made it look nicer.

That's on me.

[viral stone]

My enhanced tonguetangulation is limited to insults and put downs

[fair merlin]

how about:

"PLEASE read the pins here and the Readme on the repo before asking questions"

[viral stone]

PLEASE (for the love of Cthulu)

[hard vector]

Thanks... I thought that if now I can run 3 servers with 50 players each then on Folia I could run one 150 players server. Why not?

[fair merlin]

Please read the pins here and the Readme on the repo before asking questions

:)

The Readme explains a lot of the limitations, etc.

And it's called "read me"

It wants to be read.

It loves it.

[hard vector]

Thanks, but 32 threads CPU would be so expensive 😦

[ashen spear]

thats the point

folia is for big servers

[fair merlin]

Yes, as the Readme and FAQ observes, this is specialized

[brave quest]

More expensive than a I9 overclocked CPU to only support around 150player?

[fair merlin]

Yeah

[ashen spear]

i doubt that

[fair merlin]

More expensive in cost but better performing.

[ashen spear]

xeon is good enough right ?

[prime juniper]

Hello. Is there a way, with witch I can port folia to 1.17.1?

[brave quest]

Folia is much better and cheaper in big scales

[fair merlin]

Definitely not.

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[viral stone]

I mean, sure, if you've got the dev team/time to do it

[fair merlin]

I mean yeah I guess there is "a way"

But good luck.

[ashen spear]

so he is definetly on his own

[prime juniper]

Thanks...

[hard vector]

But maybe I would try on 1.20. Now I can handle 80 players on one single paper server with 100 plugins. If on Folia I could handle 120 players it will be good so I will just try it

[fair merlin]

If you have the hardware, sure.

If you don't, it won't make sense.

I mean, again, read the pins.

There's a little FAQ in there that answers this

That I spend, like, minutes formatting nicely.

At least four minutes.

[viral stone]

I mean, you're depending on all those plugins being updated to work with folia

[hard vector]

Yes, I see it

[fair merlin]

That too. ^

[floral oyster]

It's gonna take a while for a large swathe of plugins to support Folia. I've been working around the clock since Folia dropped to update all my homebrew'd plugins.

[hard vector]

And normal paper will be still developed?

[arctic tapir]

yes

[hard vector]

Thanks

[brave quest]

Is it possible to create worlds asynchronously once the World API is ready on Folia? Currently, using the Bukkit API takes at least 2 seconds to create a world, and there's no option to keep the world only on server memory. While I could use AdvancedSlimePaper, I prefer to use Folia as my server software

[floral oyster]

Probably too early to say

[willow forum]

Hello, how I can build Folia with gradle?

[ashen spear]

by using gradle

💀

[floral oyster]

Very helpful.

[fair merlin]

Read the Paper repo guide

Same steps for building Paper, since Folia's a fork of it.

[viral stone]

custom world sources, i.e. such as one which keeps stuff only in memory, will never be supported

[ashen spear]

💀 that is what i got told. they told if you cant build it dont useit 👍

[viral stone]

No idea about the world api, it generally has to be blocking because of general API contracts

making an async one isn't too hard, but generally a waste as most of the slow stuff is avoidable

[willow forum]

It didn't works

[viral stone]

read

[ashen spear]

L

[brave quest]

I tried to create a world using a custom void generator and other techniques, but it still takes approximately 500ms

[fair merlin]

Yeah that's probably gonna be the reality

[viral stone]

custom world gen with a fixed spawn point, and disable keeping chunks loaded

idk what that takes it down to, but it's generally fast enough to not have to care about dealing with rewriting the world loading logic

last I knew, FAWE had done that, idk if they maintain that stuff however

[dusty aurora]

If there is a region that takes >50ms to tick, will other regions start the next tick after 50ms (and so cause time desync with that laggy region) or will the server wait until all regions have completed to start next tick at the same moment?

[fair merlin]

Reading the Readme should explain some of this

[dusty aurora]

oh I missed that?

[chilly gate]

./gradlew applyPatches
./gradlew createPaperclipJar

[viral stone]

i mean, you probably don't want a mojmap jar

then agian, not that plugins really work in it yet

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[willow forum]

Now this error

[fair merlin]

You need to be able to build this on your own. If you cannot then you should not be running it right now.

Read the Readme, pins, FAQ, etc and the Paper build process. If you can successfully build Paper then you can build Folia. If you can't then you'll have to wait for jars to be public in a bit.

[wise vale]

/spreadplayers not a thing in folia?

[fair merlin]

Don't think so

[chilly gate]

what did you run?

is applyPatches worked?

[willow forum]

Yes, worked

But gradlew build don't work

[arctic tapir]

bc that's the wrong command

[wise vale]

./gradlew createReobfPaperclipjar

after applying patches ofc

[worthy verge]

The same error

It doesn't work for me either

[viral stone]

works fine here, you'd need to see the logs for other errors, etc

[normal vale]

works fine here too

[modest marsh]

works fine here too

[wise vale]

hmmm

[fierce knot]

message.txt by @wise vale: https://pastes.dev/L8yZf9FcLP

[fair merlin]

Any more info here You running any plugins?

Do anything weird/etc?

[normal vale]

the bot is very cool

[wise vale]

not running any plugins

was stress testing the server with bots joining / leaving then that happened

[viral stone]

file a bug report

[fair merlin]

Yeah, with as much info as you can.

[fair merlin]

Er how many bots and what CPU?

(Not that it matters, but curious)

[static cosmos]

Folia is recommended for Ryzen/Intel Core-i high-end cpus?

s.th like 7950x or 13900K

[fair merlin]

Read the pins in here please

[wise vale]

i9 9900k 600 joining at high speed

[fair merlin]

Gotcha, thanks

[wise vale]

tbh i got error once then never got it again as i kept testing mass joining, so i don't know how to reproduce this yet

[fair merlin]

Well keep trying!

BREAK IT!

[normal vale]

generateDevelopmentBundle error

Execution failed for task ':generateDevelopmentBundle'.
> java.nio.file.FileAlreadyExistsException: D:\idea\project\Folia\.gradle\caches\paperweight\taskCache\generateDevelopmentBundle.tmpdir\alternate\current\wire\LevelHelper.java

[viral stone]

No idea if building dev bundles even works on windows yet

either way, something caused a race condition, make sure that you only have 1 thing interacting with the project at once, i.e. don't have your IDE open with the project, etc

[normal vale]

https://pastes.dev/oUms16rx8s

[normal vale]

Yes, I only open one idea

[viral stone]

try again 🤷‍♂️

[normal vale]

ok i try restart

[wise vale]

[12:25:18 ERROR]: Detected setBlock in a far chunk [66, -69], pos: BlockPosition{x=1056, y=47, z=-1090}, status: minecraft:features, currently generating: ResourceKey[minecraft:worldgen/placed_feature / minecraft:large_dripstone]

[viral stone]

that's a vanilla issue

[fringe kestrel]

Hello, guys! Why did PaperMC start developing Folia instead of supporting the more technically advanced MultiPaper?

[fair merlin]

Totally different things

And Multipaper isn't our project

[unique crystal]

more technically advanced

Kek

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[frank fox]

So, theres this in the README, but what if we run it on less cores, lets say, 8 or even 4 ?

nevermind

pins answered that question

[fair merlin]

Yep

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[fair merlin]

Readme is in there too ^

[fringe kestrel]

I know, and that's why I asked the question. Wouldn't PaperMC be able to support a promising project. Or didn't the PaperMC team consider it promising?

[arctic tapir]

no

[viral coral]

multipaper is not promising

hacky at best

single point of failure

solves different goals

[fringe kestrel]

What exactly am I wrong about? MultiPaper, unlike Folia, allows you to organize a full-fledged horizontal scaling. Maybe I don't know any technical details, but conceptually it is much more competent than having only one powerful physical machine for each server, as Folia obliges

[fringe kestrel]

Okay, what are the objectives of both projects in that case? Can you say a few words about why Folia does not adhere to the principles of horizontal scaling?

[viral stone]

folia is a pet project by leaf designed with a specific manner in mind to ensure a safe mechanism of allowing for scaling up for the niche usecases

multipaper will pretty much never be able to promise "safe", because you can't really promise thread safety on tightly bound data which is hackily shared across dozens of instances

[strange nymph]

It really isn’t that unstable as you’re saying. We’ve patched all the dupes by now and only few vanilla mechanics are broken.

But Folia will be probably way better.

[fringe kestrel]

That a lot of work is still needed to make MultiPaper stable. And it is unknown whether it will be able to work stably in the end. While Folia emphasizes exactly the correct state of the data: no dupes and stuff like that.
Did I understand you correctly?

[fair merlin]

I think ultimately we just work on our own stuff.

We wouldn't put a lot of effort into a project we didn't start.

[scenic sky]

i think paper should start sponsoring me

[fair merlin]

But it's also a different concept.

Folia is for a single server with lots of CPU cores.

It's not really designed for multiple servers.

[scenic sky]

didnt leaf also start work on folia before people even thought of multipaper, lol?

yeah, when did multipaper?

[fair merlin]

I dunno when Multipaper started or whatever but Leaf started working on the beginning of Folia in 2019

[scenic sky]

thats a pretty long time

[fair merlin]

He's not the quickest human.

[fringe kestrel]

Well, okay, in that case I can ask my question differently: why is Folia conceptually aimed at dividing server mechanics over several cores of the same machine, and not over the resources of several different machines?

But it looks like electronicboy already answered this question

[fair merlin]

Yeah, cat did

I mean you want to sort out the multi-threading stuff on a single server first. At least in our opinion.

[fringe kestrel]

👍

Thank you all for your comments

[hidden leaf]

...and it's also a challenge :p

[fair merlin]

True

But also needed dataconverter, Starlight, and the chunk system first.

So stepping stones!

[hidden leaf]

Leaf is pretty awesome!

objective fact

[fair merlin]

Plus he's bad at math.

[wise vale]

i managed to break server joining compleatly

[hidden leaf]

me too!

[arctic tapir]

Can i "safely" switch a world from folia to paper?

[wise vale]

funny results

> tps
[13:44:01 INFO]: Server Health Report
 - Online Players: 0
 - Total regions: 219
 - Utilisation: 3.1% / 200.0%
 - Load rate: 0.00, Gen rate: 0.00
 - Lowest Region TPS: 19.73
 - Median Region TPS: 19.73
 - Highest Region TPS: 19.80
Highest 3 utilisation regions
 - Region around block [w:'world',37335,80,-95033]:
    0.1% util at 0.03 MSPT at 19.73 TPS
 - Region around block [w:'world',27495,80,-92521]:
    0.0% util at 0.01 MSPT at 19.73 TPS
 - Region around block [w:'world',-50617,80,-89881]:
    0.0% util at 0.01 MSPT at 19.73 TPS

[fair merlin]

Uhhh make a backup.

[hidden leaf]

always make a backup ;)

[arctic tapir]

it''s a test world so don't care about it

[fair merlin]

Then yeah probably

[fair merlin]

That happened to us on the public test also a few times.

[hidden leaf]

in what sense?

[wise vale]

spam joining

basically all clients sockets are closed but server still thinks they are online somehow

then basically later server knows and does disconnection handling

[viral stone]

depends on how the connection is closed, tbqh

server knowing later generally means that the idle handler spotted the dead connection that wasn't detected

i.e. TCP is fun, etc

[golden mica]

If I use 13700k with a main frequency of 5.6ghz with 8 cores and 16 threads, how can I assign threads after preloading the server?

[wise vale]

in my case server does kill all the connections but never handle them unless sometime later

[fallen vortex]

I am excited for the future of Folia

[fair merlin]

The future is now!

[fallen vortex]

I will be early to jump on board to use Folia once plugins start supporting it 😄

[zenith folio]

agree!

that,s so excited

[fair merlin]

Yeah that might take a bit. Just make sure your use case and system requirements work!

[zenith folio]

im glad to see that the server can finally use more than one cores for main ticks

maby we will never need to use runTaskAsynchronously in the future

[jagged ether]

That has nothing to do with Folia

Sometimes stuff just doesn't need to block the main(/region) thread pointlessly

[fair merlin]

Yeah that doesn't exist in Folia anymore

There is an async scheduler though

[weak tundra]

Note that we recommend 16 cores, not threads. The clock speed may have some impact but thanks to hyper-threading you're leaving performance behind anyway.
You don't assign this, you just put it up for the JVM to use ideally

[mild slate]

I'm still concerned about "There is no best guess for chunk system workers if not pre-generated, as on the test server we ran we gave 16 threads but chunk generation was still slow at ~300 players"

[weak tundra]

I still need to run some benchmarks myself, I have a Ryzen R9-7950X3D as reference chip available, should be pretty fun

[viral stone]

I mean, chunk gen is slow in general

idk if that's threaded any more now in the new system, pregen will always be king, sadly

[weak tundra]

We can't wholly optimize generating chunks because that would yield in a different world generation behavior most likely

I've poked at it in the past and there's not a ton of room for optimization

[mild slate]

This might be a dumb question but how are server crashes handled by the way? If one region crashes does it stop the entire server

[scenic sky]

a way to optimize chunk generation is to make simpler terrain, superflat world smp 👍

[clear hatch]

maybe at some point will paper or folia have alternative generators which look almost like vanilla one but a lot more performant?

like, as an option in config or whatever

[viral stone]

use a plugin

[weak tundra]

The network I used to work for had adapted the Glowstone chunk generation system for that kind of thing

[viral stone]

rewriting chunk gen is not a small tenable piece of work, especially given that you'll be joining the same rat race as literally every other DIY server software

[scenic sky]

wouldnt making the world like 10 blocks less deep improve performance by a little

im sure the bedrock npcs wouldnt notice

[viral stone]

not really

[weak tundra]

The problem is "almost" is not viable. The smallest change to the noise generation will yield wildly different results

[scenic sky]

does the height of the world really matter that little?

cool

[viral stone]

I mean, the system is more mar'd in complexity than worrying about the performance of 10 blocks of height

[scenic sky]

[weak tundra]

I've last poked at it in 1.16
It took me 2h to rage quit because of all of the catch-22-style micro fixes to make it look more natural/ prevent overlaps and the like

That's only gotten worse now thanks to world blending

[viral coral]

[mild slate]

This looks like a good machine to use with folia, does clock speed matter?

[naive fable]

Think the 7 7700 is better

[viral coral]

best to take the 7700

13900 has E/P-cores

[mild slate]

The 7700 only has 8 cores though

[coarse night]

the e cores still have skylake "p core" performance w/o hyperthreading

[mild slate]

200 - 300 players

[coarse night]

but you need latest linux kernel (6.2), else e/p cores are not that great under linux

[mild slate]

The AMD Ryzen 9 5950X with 16 cores looks like it would be great to use with folia, I'm currently on ryzen 7 7700

[scenic sky]

thats kinda the bare minimum for folia to be viable

[mild slate]

Yeah those look good

But like Jokni said, 16 cores is the bare minimum that folia recommends

These high core count machines are pricey aha

[scenic sky]

its worth it for those servers which cram a billion players into a server

[somber jolt]

what's the go with 8 cores, It recommends 16, I know, but 8 is a rather common number of cores for someone to have 😂
It's a hypothetical question, like I can understand 1-4 cores not being enough, but 8?

[normal vale]

I running it on a 6 core machine

[undone delta]

any number of cores should be ok if its bigger than 2

[arctic tapir]

not if you're going to run it on an actual server

[runic kayak]

Crazy project.

[normal vale]

Why? Does Folia have lower performance than paper in fewer core condition

[arctic tapir]

yes

https://github.com/papermc/folia read the readme

[jovial helm]

And issue 13

[wicked mantle]

You essentially need enough cores to populate the thread pool decently enough that regions won't be stealing threads from each other

[royal swallow]

What do you think about AMD Ryzen 7 3800X - 8c/16t - 3.9 GHz/4.5 GHz?

[arctic tapir]

no

[royal swallow]

Would it work?

[arctic tapir]

maybe

stable? probvably not

[royal swallow]

50-60 players

[arctic tapir]

just use paper for that

[royal swallow]

I bought this machine for paper

Probbably going to upgrade it then

[arctic tapir]

#paper-help then

[royal swallow]

..:

Yeah, I bought it for paper use for 2 years ago.

Since this project is here, I Will probbably need a upgrade then.

[arctic tapir]

if you have 50-60 playrs I doubt you'll need this

[royal swallow]

I need this

Running a SMP

With farms

We have nerfed so much to get a 20 TPS

Simulation distance, farms, etc

[viral stone]

managing all the extra stuff is more expensive

We can't exactly comment on how specific random pieces of hardware will perform

[prime juniper]

Where source to build the jar?

[livid crag]

please read the official repo, it has steps.

[prime juniper]

I want server jar is it available or not?

[arctic tapir]

you need to build it yourself

[slim bolt]

Server jar is not available yet

[prime juniper]

How?

There no any source to build.

[arctic tapir]

github.com/papermc/folia

[slim bolt]

https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia

[royal swallow]

8c with 16 threads, should it work for a SMP with a 60k big worldborder?

Often 20-80 players online

[hybrid shore]

No one knows. Maybe. Try for yourself.

[royal swallow]

Thanks, I will

[prime juniper]

I tried to build but it gives empty jar file

[wicked mantle]

Like genuinely Paper was only able to test with a small number of hardware combos. So if you find a specific setup that works it’d be great to know

[arctic tapir]

read the paper readme

[blazing tree]

Does anyone have a good dedicated host (and a plan from them) to run a Folia server with?

[viral coral]

your best bet would be ovh or hetzner's epyc 7502p's

[prime juniper]

There no info about how to build jar. I must use maven idk gradle.

[arctic tapir]

you can't use maven to build paper/folia

https://github.com/papermc/paper#how-to-compiling-jar-from-source

[prime juniper]

ik

[prime juniper]

Oh thanks

[ruby dove]

is folia a fork of papermc?

[arctic tapir]

yes

[late heart]

“paper, but there is no plugin support

[crimson folio]

https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia for more info 🙂

[ruby dove]

wahht?

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[late heart]

paper plugins are need to be modified to run on folia

[ruby dove]

how do I run a folia server?

[livid crag]

read the page

[viral stone]

exact same as paper

but, I mean, this is early release software for a niche usecase

if you have to ask that, you should probs not be using folia

[ruby dove]

paper has their server jars, where do I folia's?

[viral stone]

Please actually read the announcements

[ruby dove]

ok

[mild bridge]

that's what happens if you ping everyone lmao

[wicked mantle]

phoenix seeing you as not a bot is extremely jarring

[clear hatch]

phoenix with no irc is fake

[tough wren]

Fakenix

[neat arch]

how to change from 100 to more?

[mild bridge]

Add more dedonated wam

[neat arch]

Where

1/12

[wicked mantle]

Well noting you're on 6 cores that's probably why it's not more

[neat arch]

Is there any way to increase the flag?

[viral stone]

what

[wicked mantle]

It'll use the most it can by default, for instance a 56 core machine reported out of 1400%

[mild bridge]

Spread out players more or lower the stuff inside that region

[neat arch]

Is there a way to manually set % ?

[wicked mantle]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

you're already well under the recommended amount of cores

[neat arch]

ok sorry

[arctic tapir]

is this big stacktrace needed? https://i.imgur.com/SCbcFEw.png. A simple "xyz plugin could not be loaded something something not supporting folia"

[next bloom]

nah, I don't think we want softer failures

makes people less likely to notice

[neat arch]

4 core = 100% ?

[arctic tapir]

1 core = 100%

or thread idk

[wicked mantle]

probably only one of those cores is actually in the threadpool for regions

[nova jackal]

Fint du fråga ändå haah

[late heart]

Hey! How should plugin.yml look ideally?

smth like this?

[arctic tapir]

yes

[next bloom]

missing api-version

[late heart]

ah okay

[high jackal]

Hello! I have a problem with Folia build (attempt #3 xD):
https://pastes.dev/9xb9YZyVHE

[viral stone]

OneDrive

[high jackal]

saved after reinstall)

[viral stone]

run in a folder not tainted by onedrive, ideally with a shorter path (i.e. directly on the C drive)

[high jackal]

only folder

[finite hinge]

Your folia directory needs to be in the root of your disk if you're going to use windows

[viral stone]

running software in onedrive is known to cause issues

[high jackal]

okay, thanks

[viral stone]

especially software which does a lot of writes fast

[finite hinge]

Also make your anti-virus ignore the folia directory

That one may not be required to build (although it has in the past) but it'll make the build faster

Even better would be to setup WSL2 then clone and build it in there

not with WSL2 accessing files in your Windows environment, a new clone inside WSL2

[high jackal]

I have Ubuntu 22.04 Server

[finite hinge]

It's probably faster to setup WSL2, download and install Ubuntu in it, and build in there than it is to build on Windows

[high jackal]

Thanks for help

[scarlet burrow]

it doesn't need it, but it does help because windows

[viral stone]

Windows has a limit to the length of a file path

paperweight uses file lengths which can cause issues fairly easily on windows if people get a bit too deep

[scarlet burrow]

true

i hate windows but i use this laptop for school work 😔

[timid grotto]

what school work requires windows lmao

[scarlet burrow]

exams

because they like proprietary locking software

[wispy current]

Hello dear Folia community,
on it's github page it states, that you should have at least 16 core or more.
Our dedicated machine is running an AMD Ryzen 9 5900x with 12c/24t.
Will this work?

[timid grotto]

will it work? yes
will it perform better than paper? https://tryitands.ee

[arctic tapir]

better question is if you even need this

[scarlet burrow]

see, this isn't necessary, because i own this laptop lol
i may end up doing wsl2 or a dual setup but this thing is on its way out anyway so ill probably just wait for my upgrade

[wicked mantle]

I feel like if you have to ask if it'll be useful it's definitely not for you

[gusty shadow]

how do you guys have folia

what

[wicked mantle]

by building it from source

[timid grotto]

#announcements

[arctic tapir]

||or api||

[marble moth]

have someone already built a folia jar ? i literally cant build it lol

[arctic tapir]

yes

[wispy current]

Ayo okay

[arctic tapir]

clone, apply patch an whatever the build command was

instructions are on paper repo

[gusty shadow]

these?

1kb doesn't seem right

[arctic tapir]

its in the main build folder

[gusty shadow]

?

[wicked mantle]

[tardy mulch]

xD

[arctic tapir]

you used the wrong build task

[gusty shadow]

which one?

[arctic tapir]

https://github.com/papermc/paper#how-to-compiling-jar-from-source

[tardy mulch]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gusty shadow]

ah

ty

[tardy mulch]

[arctic grail]

I suppose folia breaks redstone right

[livid crag]

If it’s 1000 block long maybe

Normally no

It should work just like in paper 99.99% of the time

[timid grotto]

you wont get redstone ticking between regions because regions will merge instead of being near other regions

[wet pendant]

Is merge limit configurable?

[livid crag]

no. exaxtly how it works is outlined on the readme.

[oak gull]

I reference recent lurkers and chatters to the first point of the pinned FAQ

"Q: Do I need Folia?"

A: Folia is designed for higher end servers. So if you aren't sure: probably not. Stick with Paper until you know exactly why you'd use Folia

[hardy ingot]

its actually important that touching regions get merged together no matter how big they are as it will behave weird otherwise

[livid crag]

yes that's how most of the past attempts by other developers failed at

there were countless projects before Folia that try to do multi threaded things but failed to take off because of the issues that you WILL encounter for those cases

[hardy ingot]

imagine 2 threads ticking the same chunk 👀
(or just entities moving between regions)

[oak gull]

incredibly unbased

[wicked mantle]

my fave part of the test was the region that was frozen so any regions attempting to merge with it also froze while they waited for it to finish its tick

[clear hatch]

I wonder, what will happen if I schedule an infinite loop to a region?

[oak gull]

a loop will happen infinitely

[wicked mantle]

I remember asking what happens if a region is completely locked when leaf was fucking with bees. He said it will lock other regions trying to merge with it

[oak gull]

wait leaf was doingWHAT

@tranquil epoch

the furry behaviour has gone too far

[wicked mantle]

WITH LARRY

WITH

[clear hatch]

based furry

[livid crag]

The only way to fix a broken region is just shut down serve and restart iirc.

there is no ways to recover as it risk breaking shits

[wicked mantle]

Get 20 alt accounts, make a really large region, freeze it, troll a server

[clear hatch]

freeze the region if someone built a huge farm

[oak gull]

it'll only be a troll for people in that region

folia is awesome

everyone else can go about their lives

[wicked mantle]

unless they get close to the frozen region and it tries to merge

[oak gull]

true

[wicked mantle]

tho you need a ton of accounts and not get caught

so good luck

[oak gull]

but eh, better than the other alternative of the entire server just deading

[wicked mantle]

yeah

[clear hatch]

we must have the /ban <region> command

[wicked mantle]

And noting it needed like a few thousand bees before the region died I doubt anyone will actually do it

[oak gull]

What might be useful is a way to force unload a region, just kick everyone in it, and then reload it

[wicked mantle]

I think that's planned for the future

A way to reboot a region basically

[dark path]

I just came from r/programming and I gotta say, this project makes me so excited

[oak gull]

haha we're on reddit? woohooo

[clear hatch]

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/126mpjy/folia_fork_of_paper_which_adds_regionised/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[oak gull]

leaf would be so sad, leaf does not like reddit very much (or maybe just doesn't like me)

[arctic tapir]

or both

[oak gull]

true

@tranquil epoch you're on reddit ^

top comment mentions you by name UwU

[wicked mantle]

idk leaf might own r/rats

[oak gull]

true

or r/furry

[late heart]

Hey! Sorry for interupting but, how can I execute something like a sync runnable with folia (on each region at every tick)?

[oak gull]

You'd wanna ask in #folia-dev

[late heart]

Ah okay, I didn't know witch channel is for it, ty

[oak gull]

Those with the guts to give a solid answer generally only lurk there haha

[livid crag]

leaf is probably still sleeping after last night. He literally peaked in life as of yesterday

[oak gull]

yeah

[livid crag]

until next patch

[floral oyster]

Wishing him the best

[oak gull]

the first (second? third?) of many peaks

[floral oyster]

He deserves a rest

[arctic tapir]

https://jd.papermc.io/folia/1.19/io/papermc/paper/threadedregions/scheduler/GlobalRegionScheduler.html#runAtFixedRate(org.bukkit.plugin.Plugin,java.util.function.Consumer,long,long) probably

[oak gull]

wow thanks cas woo hoo

[lucid basin]

?install

!install

[young sedge]

Unrelated thing, but that (somewhat) hyper-realistic leaf used as the logo of Folia is both nice, but also not fitting imo... Mainly because I imagine a more simple logo fitting in the PaperMC org (Given Paper and velocity both have their own simple logos)...
Just a random thing I wanted to share.

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[tacit tartan]

@lucid basin ^

[lucid basin]

okey thanks man

[young sedge]

Am I the only one finding it a bit weird that the Repo has been made public, the API is being exposed too, but no public builds yet? Like, how do you expect us to test it out then (I doubt everyone would know how to build from source here)?

[arctic tapir]

you compile it

or use the api

[tacit tartan]

It's only really public for plugin devs to get going on compat

[arctic tapir]

if you can't figure either out then you don't need it

[oak gull]

We are weakly/informally enforcing a skill requirement for Folia testing and feedback, basically.

[young sedge]

Yeah, but it's not made easy if you can't easily test it without having to build the entire thing first yourself.

[viral coral]

server owners/admins aren't the target for this yet

[viral coral]

if you know how to use gradle

you can compile from source

if you don't know how to use gradle or maven

this is not for you

plugins are broken by default, there's 0 reason for server admins/owners/non-developers to test this

[young sedge]

I doubt you can use maven on gradle projects....? Or can you actually? 🤔
Or do you actually mean maven as in the maven repo?

[tacit tartan]

think he just means maven skills generally apply to gradle, it's just a different command

[viral coral]

i'm saying that if you don't know how to compile a java project, don't bother touching folia

that

[mild slate]

I think it would be easier to just deter people from using folia if they don't have a 16 core cpu (which is going to be the majority of people)

[tacit tartan]

well people would absolutely will try

[oak gull]

and folia will run on less, it just wont be of any extra value over paper

(it'll be worse, even)

[scarlet burrow]

building really isn't that hard, either, so like
experimental software requires experimental skillset
seems like a good compromise to me

[wicked mantle]

Paper doesn't want every random joe just downloading Folia, using it on their shared hosting plan with 2 cores, and then coming here for help because it lags lol

[oak gull]

We're not even at the point where people with the right hardware should use it

Nobody should be actually using it.

[hardy ingot]

maybe a warning in the console if you have less than x cores folia will be useless would be usefull

[mild slate]

In fact I'm literally someone who would benefit from folia but I already split my survival server into 3 smaller survival servers on a ryzen 7 7700. It is cheaper than getting a 16 core cpu and running on folia

[young sedge]

Have there been any bigger breaking API changes since you had your public testing?
I had Glare test my plugin on Folia like 1 or 2 weeks after that day and he didn't find any issues... So idk if there would be any new changes since then that could be something...

[oak gull]

Yeah there's been more work

Can't guarantee stability until (or maybe even long after) a proper release

[hardy ingot]

without recreating the server from scratch it most likely will never be 100% stable
(at least from my knowledge)

[young sedge]

That really seems like only something bigger networks may have an interest in then...
My server as far as I remember only has 4vCPUs (Dedicated VPS)

[foggy blaze]

This is a good idea tbh

“You have been detected as only having 4 cores you’re delusional or sm”
Lmao thats

[lucid basin]

so I have a question, when will this fork be opened to everyone?

[dreamy dirge]

__There Is No ETA__

Updates to Paper do not have any sort of estimate for when they release, ever. Any and all updates will arrive when they are ready, and the only thing to do is wait for them patiently along with everyone else.

ETA means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[arctic tapir]

source is public

no official builds yuet

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[oak gull]

here's a lot of useful info

[slow quest]

would it be possible to put repo url in channel description?

[oak gull]

there

[slow quest]

thanks

[hardy ingot]

the fun stuff about folia is: this project probably won't be dead after some time like other server implementations that tried something similar (or in other languages) 👀

[oak gull]

That's just cause folia cares about stability and being vanilla and bug free

[young sedge]

My personal idea here...

*** We detected that your server only runs on <cores> cores. ***
*** Folia is aimed at larger servers and runs best on a Setup with at least <min> cores. Using it on any lower amount may have a negative impact on overall performance. ***
*** BY CONTINUING TO USE FOLIA ON THIS SETUP, YOU AGREE TO NOT RECEIVE ANY SUPPORT! ***

[oak gull]

and it'll do that, it's just not magic

[young sedge]

(Bad grammar I know)

[oak gull]

We will support folia bugs on lower core counts.

it should be identical in terms of bugginess

[foggy blaze]

Yeah, a bug is a bug

[oak gull]

it'll just poorly perform

[hardy ingot]

maybe "use paper instead of folia" instead of "no support" then

[mild slate]

People are going to jump to folia thinking it will perform better than paper even though the person has an 8 core cpu for example, that's why people using less than 16 core cpu's should be made aware of that

you dont need to prevent support, you need to inform them about reality

[young sedge]

Yeah. Tho a notice is probs a good idea still, otherwise people will join and complain (You still get them no matter because there apparently is a high number of dyslexic people I guess, but it probs will be less than what it would be without the notice)

[scarlet burrow]

i already have people asking for folia support and im like
it literally came out less than 24 hours ago

[hardy ingot]

folia support when

[foggy blaze]

Yeah preventing support is def a bit harsh and just dumb overall. But I agree having a notice could be helpful for people that actually read errors and warnings

[hardy ingot]

except for 2b2t and mconline i actually don't know any servers that could make real use of folia

[young sedge]

Tho.... Maybe consider a sort of "support" system on the website that would determine which server would be better.
Like a helper that asks questions like "what is the core count?", "How much RAM will you provide?", "How many players do you expect?", "Is it a dedicated server (i.e. a VPS) or a shared host?", etc. and based on the replies gives you one or a combination of the Paper products available...
Just something to think about in the future to be honest...

[hardy ingot]

most other servers use multiple smaller servers behind a proxy with minigames anyways

[supple wave]

Sounds like a cool project, happy to see that the paper team will takeover with the time

[young sedge]

Just check Modrinth... They already implemented Folia as a selection in the plugin stuff xD
(At least on the staging site)

[mild slate]

Yeah this is great for 2b2t, but most big networks are minigame servers anyway. And survival servers have more or less already come up with their own solution (have multiple smaller servers)

[foggy blaze]

I mean any server that’s slightly larger with a survival gamemode could totally make use of this

[scarlet burrow]

that doesn't help the people that come into support discords asking for folia support

[foggy blaze]

They can just increase the player count on their individual survival servers now or sm lol

[mild slate]

instead of having multiple servers they can have 1 big server, but whats the point when it is cheaper to have multiple servers

[young sedge]

I was just pointing out that you're not the only one getting asked to add support... In whatever way.

[wicked mantle]

Skyblock is like the only not smp gamemode I can think of immediately that will benefit from Folia due to the nature of how the gamemode is

[oak gull]

some people with beefy hardware and a lot of players (and money) will find it gives a better experience to everyone to have so many people all on one server. livelier chat, bigger event participation, etc

[young sedge]

Well.... Chat can be lively with network either way.

[supple wave]

or any survival server with many players and normal mob spawning

[young sedge]

It's not really bound to the server alone after all...

[scarlet burrow]

i know lmao

[mild slate]

I honestly think the people who would benefit from folia have already come up with their own solution (cross server chat, events through each individual server etc)

but I can see how 2b2t would easily benefit from this

[hardy ingot]

at least we can now scale minecraft vertically again by just throwing more cores at it

[young sedge]

OR for sure would benefit.... Their last even with a lot of players was an absolute nightmare... Huge load times, lag beyond any measures...

[foggy blaze]

Yeah but maintaining those systems can be a bitch. Plus this is probably better than whatever other people have made

[digital python]

when do you think folia will be good for prod?

[dreamy dirge]

__There Is No ETA__

Updates to Paper do not have any sort of estimate for when they release, ever. Any and all updates will arrive when they are ready, and the only thing to do is wait for them patiently along with everyone else.

ETA means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[viral coral]

when it's ready

[digital python]

like hytale

[viral coral]

correct

[digital python]

so never

looks promising

[young sedge]

You forgot the ™️

[viral coral]

different issues

[foggy blaze]

You’ve awakened the horde

[proper heron]

I’m hyped for all the 8 player server owners asking for folia plugin support

[hardy ingot]

main difference to hytale is that folia is technically already public and "can be used"
may break tho

[oak gull]

just cause we don't have a release date doesn't mean there won't be one

hytale does not have a release date and has produced nothing

[hardy ingot]

they have nice images tho

[oak gull]

leaf's got the entire foundation written and is ironing it all out

[young sedge]

Except hype and a loooooooot of disapointed people who wait for ages now

And IF it comes out, I can imagine it becoming one of the worst games ever.... Like Cyberpunk, but Hytale

[silver sierra]

redditor

[mild slate]

You're better off waiting anyway, I'm sure the price for these high core cpu's will eventually go lower

[scarlet burrow]

you underestimate the bots

[hardy ingot]

can't wait for cheap server hosts to add folia to their list just to get more customers

[royal swallow]

tack babe ❤️

[inner swift]

Doubtful, this isn't cheap to run

[mild slate]

I'm waiting for paper to replace the gzip compression minecraft uses for region files

[hardy ingot]

but its easy to advertise with "supports more players than vanilla" while only giving you 2 cores to use

[arctic tapir]

i've seen a host that added it already (although they hid it for the public)

[young sedge]

I can't wait for shitty Forks of Folia sold on BuiltByBit because money

[mild slate]

Based on the chat I've seen someone struggle on a 16 core cpu (was a test with 800 players to be fair)

[tacit tartan]

oh yeah how long until the latest yatopia pulls folia patches

[young sedge]

What would be the recommended max players? I assume something around 300 to 400?

[unique forge]

Your hardware is the limit

[mild slate]

I think it depends on your core count

[hardy ingot]

technically it depends on how many cores you have and how limited your bandwith is

and how spread out the players are

[young sedge]

I doubt that tbh... There are certain hard limits.... Like how a too high RAM can mess with Java as (iirc) the GC starts to freak out or smth...

It's still Java

So "the limit is your ..." is not quite right. Java itself will be the limit here

[oak gull]

andre our test used all 500gb of ram we gave it

and didn't give indications of being bottlenecked

[young sedge]

I was more about using large RAM on low usage. Like server only using 1GB while you give like 30

[mild slate]

If you're using aikars flags it will always use what you assigned + more

[dreamy dirge]

https://docs.papermc.io/paper/aikars-flags

[hardy ingot]

you still have to optimise the flags, its not just "java -jar folia.jar"

[mild slate]

But anyway, I think this is a cool concept that can benefit a select few servers but the high core count cpu you need is going to be an economic barrier to entry for most people which makes sense because the majority is not the target audience for this

for now I'm sticking with having 3 separate survival servers

[hardy ingot]

if you have enough players (on one map/server) to justify the need for folia you most likely can afford hardware for folia

[wicked mantle]

I plan on using it for big event servers that are like "We got 1000 players and scattered them all over the place to see who could survive the longest" and stuff like that

[prime glen]

mr beast

"10000 players battle royale"

[oak gull]

folia will not do what beast's setup does

if everyone is in one region, it performs like vanilla paper

[foggy blaze]

hear me out

[oak gull]

_11 I'm not sure that's public information, unless you're sure

[foggy blaze]

1 thread = 1 player

the new folia

[undone acorn]

go make it

[prime glen]

[undone acorn]

bonus points for loom thread per player

[foggy blaze]

I'd fuckin kill myself prolly

[tacit tartan]

though there's been a bunch of "dump a bunch of content creators on a massive map and play hide and seek" vids that it might do something for

[wicked mantle]

yeah whatever idea you come up with has to include spreading players out

[tacit tartan]

larry: I mean I think it's fine but just in case I deleted

[oak gull]

kk

[undone acorn]

the biggest help for folia in our case is simply that our continents (worlds) have big towns scattered about with big contraptions, builds, redstone, item frames, etc and those (way more than players) is where the tps recovery will come from when threaded apart

[oak gull]

yeah that's a great use case

[undone acorn]

that said, waiting for many folia trailblazers to suss out the complexities of plugin support

[foggy blaze]

literally a perfect use case

[raven compass]

i would just like to see 2b2t to use folia some day in future

¯_(ツ)_/¯

it will never happen tho

[wicked mantle]

for once someone who can use folia

[strange nymph]

2b2t won't use Folia. A server that makes $50K USD a month can make it's own Folia but they choose not to.

[livid crag]

It will be someone based of it for sure

And it won’t be hard to find out anyway

If it does happen

The characteristic of folia is pretty easy to tell

[wicked mantle]

2b2t lagging is what makes it what it is tbh

[livid crag]

If 2b after upsetting suddenly immune to lag machine and mobs spawn behavior is changed

Then you know it’s something based off folia

[strange nymph]

2b2t test server with 250 players had 0 issues with lag.

[dreamy dirge]

Folia

Folia is a fork of Paper that adds multi-threaded region support. Many plugins will require updating to support Folia. There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

For more information:

• Readme
• FAQ
• Regionising logic
• Detailed overview
• Javadocs

Folia will:

• NOT be backported to older versions <1.19.4
• NOT be merged into Paper
• NOT be ported to Fabric nor Forge

Stay tuned to #announcements for any further info about releases.

'ETA' means 'Estimated Time of Arrival'!

[strange nymph]

They have no reason to upgrade to more player slots or something which gives them more performance.

[livid crag]

That’s weird coz I know they didn’t go for it for issues

[wicked mantle]

riley

[livid crag]

Lol

[raven compass]

it was due to map having problems to be converted

[rare steppe]

fixed

[wicked mantle]

[floral oyster]

Just to clarify, this is on a single multi-world server and not a network of multiple servers, correct?

[undone acorn]

It is a network of multiple servers; we already have "sharding system", but mostly it divides worlds into separate servers

But The Big Three Continents, where the towns are are the ones that can get heavy still since it's still 1 "big world with towns"

we were "about" to pull a trigger to try to shard towns individually but Folia looks to save the day 📿

[daring nimbus]

working on a server with a somewhat similar concept except that we got the conquest/pvp part in the same world too, but im tbh still a bit undecided about Folia. The hardware requirements make it quite a big investment

[undone acorn]

yeah that's the question; hardware is not so bad but i'm not sure if 5 folias in one box sounds good

suppose it depends on the number of regions really yeah?

some of our servers are tight enough we may almost want to be on folia, but not have it regionize... hard to say

[daring nimbus]

every server would have its own netty, IO and chunk loading threads too. So multiple on one box might get tight

[fair merlin]

No one has run multiple instances of Folia side by side yet, but you'd want a ridiculous CPU setup to do that.

You aren't going to run 5 instances of Folia on a single 16 core CPU box.

You're better off with just Paper for that.

[daring nimbus]

running Folia for the big server and Paper for the small ones would be an option, but that still would get pretty expensive quickly

and ofc then you have to deal with different server software for development

[foggy blaze]

personally I think this sounds like a great usecase! the hardware would def be something you need to consider tho

[undone acorn]

Yeah that's the obvious nono, not gonna have folia and paper plugins

So some control over how much folia uses or needs to use (if it's not automagic) would be really desirable

[undone acorn]

And we do already actually have this. We're "optimized" enough we have 6 servers and the proxy on 1 box

[daring nimbus]

you can control how many threads it uses for the regionized ticking, and you can control the other thread limits too (just like with Paper).
But you can't control how many region it will create, and it wouldn't make sense to limit that (at least thats what Leaf said iirc)

[undone acorn]

But that's 3 survival worlds (heavy), 1 spawn, and 1 warfare and 1 "ganks" basically server so 3 of the 6 are pretty light on resources, or even empty often

[hybrid shore]

#folia-dev message

[lucid thistle]

Folia hasn't really been tested in a variety of environments yet, nevermind scientifically enough to draw conclusions surely

[undone acorn]

API work worries me less than however scheduling changes are gonna go

The very most helpful documentation will be:

• When you have (this in paper)
• Do (this in folia)

[daring nimbus]

What I noticed is that when getting bottlenecked, chunk loading is what dies first. regions are still ticking happily, but the chunks will just stop loading.
That was also something that tended to happen in the public and private tests of Folia that were done

so maybe the amount of regions ticking isn't really the issue you would encounter first when putting multiple Folia's on one box

[rapid cipher]

These were not pregened chunks iirc

[undone acorn]

Realistically I don't see us trying Folia till mid-fall of this year at which point I'm presuming loads of updates/fixes

[lucid thistle]

Is pregenning even a thing in that case, and also is genning even a big deal in your case?

[daring nimbus]

yeah, it will take some time to iron out issues for sure. And iirc the overhead of the chunk system is also already on a todo list somewhere

[undone acorn]

i really want a way to take our more static worlds (that chunk-wise don't change in terms of builds/blocks) and put them on the edge so players can load chunks from edge servers and leave only dynamic chunks being streamed from the server itself

but that's, like, a different thing

[solar ledge]

But I mean all and all. Even when running lower core count there should be a performance increase over stock paper because the whole server is not being ticked on one core but per region so there is always a gain there right? How much would be de question ofcourse. Im really looking forward to it.

[fair merlin]

No

[floral oyster]

This is very fascinating. What you've been describing, Cryptite, is almost identical to what me and my team are planning to employ. We are currently considering our options for a second machine, and if Folia proves to be a viable option for a multi-server SMP network, it seems like a worthwhile investment.

[fair merlin]

Read the pins / Readme

[daring nimbus]

I'm not really sure if its worth it for creative plot servers personally. That sounds like the kind of server were just running multiple Paper servers is easier, and I don't think creative players care much about everything being in one world (I might be wrong, never ran one)

[fair merlin]

On lower core counts the server will be choked for resources.

[undone acorn]

I wished so deeply folia existed when we ultimately had to shard; though sharding has afforded us a ton of other gains

Like being able to restart 1 world instead of the entire server

and just partitioning resources anyway

[fair merlin]

The might be a point where "some lower cores" work okay in "some scenarios" but that remains to be seen. And "some lower" is going to be more like 12 and not 3.

[undone acorn]

You just don't want people in spawn causing lag on an entirely (logically) different conquest world

[daring nimbus]

if sharding is viable or not also really depends on the server concept imo. With some game modes it works a lot better

[undone acorn]

don't make no sens'

[floral oyster]

Yeah we split our server into "zone" servers very early on, since we're running a Survival MMORPG

[solar ledge]

Ye I see

[floral oyster]

In which there are still destructible environments

[undone acorn]

sounds like loka

minus the rpg

[floral oyster]

Our expectation is that certain "zones" have the potential to be particularly hammered, in which case we would employ Folia, but use Paper for zones we don't expect to have players counts as consistently high.

[rapid cipher]

Newest Ryzens have both good core count and single-core performance, they might deal relatively "well" with all people going into one region

[daring nimbus]

yeah, if you don't have destructible environments you could also optimise entity AI much better, instead of just throwing Folia at it

[undone acorn]

If you have loads of players in a single area and they don't need to interact with each other

shard the players into buckets of visibility

we can stick like 200 people in a small tourny zone for our festivals and then just bucket them in to groups of 50

the player tracker can so much better handle showing you 49 players than 199

[daring nimbus]

and just make them visible with packets on the other servers I suppose?

[undone acorn]

well these are all players in 1 world on 1 server

i dared not figure out how to do cross server player packet tracking

[daring nimbus]

its not too bad if you only care about movement. Just "smart" NPCs

[floral oyster]

Yeah, basically custom generated worlds for each zone server, and a zone server is similar to an SMP allowing the building of farms and bases and digging underground to find resources, etc. Just with certain areas that are protected to preserve the MMORPG part of the gameplay haha.

Some zones (i.e. early game) would get absolutely hammered.

[undone acorn]

the long con was always just hoping leaf would get so annoyed with performance that he'd be the one to do regionized minecraft

[daring nimbus]

now leaf quits because everything is done (please don't )

[floral oyster]

But yeah I think what me and my team are doing is a practical use-case for Folia, we just might need to invest a little more into more core-driven hardware as opposed to clock-speeds.

We might be able to squeeze by with a pair of 5950Xs (our original plan) but it may not be viable for rolling updates that introduce additional zones.

[undone acorn]

That's the big question. Always targeted highest single thread speed

[solar ledge]

This is what we have running. Basically a SMP of 3 to 6 kingdoms with a total player base of 200-300 and alot of land mass with bosses and MMO stuff in between the land masses. We have considered sharding but that would break the gameplay too much. On Sundays all these kingdoms go to war and that's where the performance just completly dies so would be interested to see how it could peform with folia since i would think it would at least eliminate a few bottlenecks we currently have giving a little bit of room for improvement for the rest but will have to see still really early to tell.

[undone acorn]

Which is so old fashioned

[fair merlin]

You still want a high clock speed.

[floral oyster]

^

Just now it's more a balancing act

[fair merlin]

Switching from something like a 5950X to a very old Xeon with more cores but a very low clock speed wouldn't be great.

You'd be better off with Paper on a 5950X.

[floral oyster]

Yeah we're considering some of the 32 or even 64 core EPYC processors for our next machine.

[fair merlin]

It's possible some other multicore solutions are an option. Will have to see as more plugins are working and people are play testing stuff.

[daring nimbus]

waiting for someone to try an ampere altra with Folia tbh

[fair merlin]

Haha yeah

[proper heron]

128core go burr

[fair merlin]

Not a lot of servers want to just run a no-plugin server, though. So someone would need to update their custom stuff (which could be a considerable amount of time and work) or enough of the major third party plugins need to update to bolt together a game type.

[floral oyster]

I managed to update three of our in-house plugins yesterday but it took most of the day from when Folia was dropped haha

It's not too hard to create a wrapper for the scheduler stuff, but taking advantage of the regionizing takes a little more careful consideration.

[proper heron]

some people are going to get an unexpected crash course in race conditions

[floral oyster]

Yeah lol

[undone acorn]

many*

[proper heron]

i hope mainly the networks who actually have a use case have professional developers who can handle it fine, just thinking of the group who minecraft is their first intro to coding who stumble into folia plugins somehow, gotta learn somehow though

[fair merlin]

It'll depend on what the plugin is doing for sure. Some stuff will be relatively easy to get "running" but once you start playing it'll cause issues. Other stuff would be pretty easy.

[undone acorn]

likely a handful of "never do this" scenarios will be discovered that cause majority race conditions

[proper heron]

good news is if they find it too hard they can always buy my FastSyncFolia fork for 60 bucks which adds innovative features like one scheduler and a main thread

[thin verge]

making multithreaded program requires some brain from the programmer

everyone here won't be able to make plugin💀💀

[foggy blaze]

Man that was super helpful

[thin verge]

atleast i was honest

and i didn't say any misinformation💀

[idle furnace]

running folia for first time and having a nice surprise with the plugins 🔥 🤣

[silver sierra]

should not be a surprise if you read the docs

[idle furnace]

it wasn't

lets see if I learn how to adapt them to be compatible

[weak tundra]

I ended up testing Folia a bit with the the Ryzen R9-7950X3D;

Did my tests with synthetic region loads (farms and npc entities)
Encountered next to no issues say for some in my own test plugin

Folia can just about utilize the whole cpu fully

Don't have numbers to compare anything yet and that wasn't my goal today either

The result is promising, a single paper instance could never do that

My goal was to calculate a spread ratio for a large map, I'll have to compile what I've seen when I get the chance in the next few days

[mossy palm]

Sick, what were your other specs?

[fair merlin]

This is with a single player?

Need to actually have players on it to truly test properly.

[weak tundra]

I've had 256gb of 5400 mhz ram. Four sticks admittedly bad ratio since ryzen can only do dual channel

[weak tundra]

Yea pretty much, only me monitoring and setting up pressure points

I hope I can keep this workstation for a bit longer to do more with it
Was lucky enough to catch the new dev workstations before they got thrown into the pool

[frank flare]

someone should test it on 9654

[weak tundra]

The workstation has an unbranded motherboard probably made by asus
It's an X670E chipset
And the storage should be dual Samsung 980 pro nvmes
No idea about the ram other than it's 5400 ddr5 4x64 gb

There's also an Nvidia 4090 and a database accelerator card in there but those probably don't matter much

They want me to install a dual QSFP+ card in there but I'm not sure how I'm gonna do that. Ordered an extension cable already but that just won't fit in the case

[proper heron]

where do i send my resume, my company would never

[weak tundra]

The two database engineers we have are the only ones who get that kind of machine approved

That's why I take my sweet time to play with this stuff when it gets through the door before handing it out

Let's head to #general

[weak tundra]

One of those overpriced ramdisk-esque cards with some special programmed fpga, who knows.
All I know is that it says HP on one side and it has a massive heat sink on it

Iirc the designation was "database workload accelerator"

[warm oasis]

kinda wana get a dell r900 just for this

[proper heron]

I mean if you have a legit use case where it makes business sense then it’s not a horrible idea to implement when it gets further along

[weak tundra]

You know what? I looked it up. Seems like it's just some crazy fast low latency flash storage

[proper heron]

So like the pice optane but hp?

[weak tundra]

It's probably made by Intel if it's optane. HP loves putting their branding on everything.
It uses a full pcie5 slot worth of bandwidth so I'm not sure

[proper heron]

Well I’d assume not if they’re R9 machines

[weak tundra]

But what I have seen in the enterprise distribution catalogue is that the list price for 1.67TB of those (lowest capacity) is 10k usd

[proper heron]

Oof might just be an hp money printer product

[weak tundra]

#general

[warm oasis]

nah i'd kill the idrac in like 30 seconds

[deft hatch]

its normal folia building take more than 30 minutes?

[daring nimbus]

on Windows? yes. On Linux/WSL? no

[next bloom]

I know the git operations are real bad on windows, but is the compile time that much worse? In other words, the applyPatches is gonna take forever, but idk if the build does

[deft hatch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1018368926494769314/1091178685517795370/image.png

looks lightweight enough :D

[languid saffron]

some testing i did

spawned in a bunch of tnt lol

[daring nimbus]

You could even crash the region completely and the rest of the server would be fine. It's pretty neat

[languid saffron]

yeah I almost crashed it 😂

chunks were also loading! even in the region with 5 tps

its impressive

cant wait till plugins begin supporting folia, this is such a huge breakthrough

[ornate harbor]

Out of curiosity... isn't async region loading ripe with tick speed exploits??? like having 2 hoppers facing eachother in 2 different regions causing item duplication when the tick speeds differ?

the hopper thing is just an example, it would be the case for any exploit using tick speeds

[inner swift]

It's parallel region ticking

Not trying to be annoying with wording, it's just that it's relevant to why what you describe won't happen

Regions are independent of each other and will merge if you what deacribe happens

So you can't do things cross region like that

[ornate harbor]

Just making sure🙂 talked to a buddy that works in programming, and he said it could be a potential issue

glad to hear things like cross region interactions have been thought about though🍻 can't wait for plugins to support this

[red lintel]

silently waiting for the official public builds as I'm just a newbie in coding :P

[sly elm]

ya

I mean on my 3700x before, I built paper once without wsl and it took well over an hour

it's like a minute or so on wsl

i dont think its that bad anymore but its a stark difference for sure

[rare stirrup]

Is there a way to use spark right now or any way to analyze performance?

Since timings are deprecated

[sly elm]

ya i mean its a plugin you can download

and generally people use it to analyze performance

[celest forum]

why does building paper take so long for you guys?

u are talking about getting a runnable jar right?

i’ve never seen that take more than like 5 min including apply patches

[sly elm]

it only takes a long time if youre on windows

[celest forum]

i use windows

[sly elm]

on wsl and linux its like super fast

[rare stirrup]

yes but does spark work right now?

Getting a not supported error when trying to use a bukkit build so wondering if there's any testing builds out there to monitor folia

[livid crag]

They will be a question to spark support discord. They may be better equipped to help you.

Just remember to be patient. We do not want to pressure people to make builds. It comes when developer has time and wants to do it.

[analog schooner]

Java newbie here, can't find the jar to run a server with, am I correct in thinking that I have to clone the repo and build it myself?

[sly elm]

yea no jars for now, its mostly intended for developers and people testing

[analog schooner]

Ok, thanks

[keen fable]

hey guys
i've allocated 30 threads (15 cores) to Folia VM, why does it uses only 3 threads ? might be a virtualization problem?

EDIT: Well there is a config option for advanced users.

[fair merlin]

It’s probably not gonna run well on a VM

[royal swallow]

Is there a place where folia plugins are uploaded?

Like Spigot but for Folia

[fair merlin]

Not currently. When Hangar is fully public plugins will be on there.

[royal swallow]

Does Folia work out good with Velocity plugins?

Have anyone tested?

[fair merlin]

Velocity plugins run on Velocity only.

Proxy plugins run on proxies, not on the Paper or Folia servers.

[hardy ingot]

modrinth also seems to add support for folia plugins in the future

[merry charm]

How about in a docker container? Any issues there?

[fair merlin]

Probably not, but would depend on the system setup and how many cores/etc. You'd have to test. Make sure to read the pins/Readme/FAQ/etc

[finite hinge]

Folia should run fine in a VM

It'll be slower than native but that's true of everything in a VM

[merry charm]

Will do! Thanks

[dreamy dirge]

https://papermc.io/downloads

[lucid basin]

sorry, its test

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[dreamy dirge]

⚠️ Please do not share any links to builds of Folia at this time. We are intentionally not providing easy to find/obtain downloads right now - when the time is right, everything will be available through official PaperMC distributions.

[barren forge]

Hey guys
I've opened an issue on github and was told to head to this discord for further help
Is this the right channel for it?
https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/issues/19

[solar ledge]

Did you try what he said?

[arctic tapir]

try building it direclty on the C drive

not on onedrive etc

[slim bolt]

fatal: not a git repository (or any of the parent directories)

Do somebody know how to fix it?

[arctic tapir]

you need to git clone it

[slim bolt]

I downloaded the zip

[daring nimbus]

yeah. thats not git clone

[slim bolt]

Ok, thanks

Thanks again, everything is ok now

[lost needle]

Directory 'C:\Program Files\Eclipse Adoptium\jdk-17.0.4.101-hotspot' (Windows Registry) used for java installations does not exist
> Task :createMojmapBundlerJar FAILED

FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.

* What went wrong:
Some problems were found with the configuration of task ':createMojmapBundlerJar' (type 'CreateBundlerJar').
  - In plugin 'io.papermc.paperweight.patcher' type 'io.papermc.paperweight.tasks.CreateBundlerJar' property 'serverLibrariesList' doesn't have a configured value.  
    
    Reason: This property isn't marked as optional and no value has been configured.
    
    Possible solutions:
      1. Assign a value to 'serverLibrariesList'.
      2. Mark property 'serverLibrariesList' as optional.

    Please refer to https://docs.gradle.org/8.0.2/userguide/validation_problems.html#value_not_set for more details about this problem.
  - In plugin 'io.papermc.paperweight.patcher' type 'io.papermc.paperweight.tasks.CreateBundlerJar' property 'vanillaBundlerJar' doesn't have a configured value.    

    Reason: This property isn't marked as optional and no value has been configured.

    Possible solutions:
      1. Assign a value to 'vanillaBundlerJar'.
      2. Mark property 'vanillaBundlerJar' as optional.

    Please refer to https://docs.gradle.org/8.0.2/userguide/validation_problems.html#value_not_set for more details about this problem.

* Try:
> Run with --stacktrace option to get the stack trace.
> Run with --info or --debug option to get more log output.
> Run with --scan to get full insights.

* Get more help at https://help.gradle.org

BUILD FAILED in 4s
1 actionable task: 1 executed
PS D:\Folia> ```

[arctic tapir]

looks like a broken java install

[lost needle]

any way to fix ?

[arctic tapir]

can you try using createReobfBundlerJar

[lost needle]

Directory 'C:\Program Files\Eclipse Adoptium\jdk-17.0.4.101-hotspot' (Windows Registry) used for java installations does not exist
> Task :createReobfBundlerJar FAILED

FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.

* What went wrong:
Some problems were found with the configuration of task ':createReobfBundlerJar' (type 'CreateBundlerJar').
  - In plugin 'io.papermc.paperweight.patcher' type 'io.papermc.paperweight.tasks.CreateBundlerJar' property 'serverLibrariesList' doesn't have a configured value.
    
    Reason: This property isn't marked as optional and no value has been configured.
    
    Possible solutions:
      1. Assign a value to 'serverLibrariesList'.
      2. Mark property 'serverLibrariesList' as optional.

    Please refer to https://docs.gradle.org/8.0.2/userguide/validation_problems.html#value_not_set for more details about this problem.
  - In plugin 'io.papermc.paperweight.patcher' type 'io.papermc.paperweight.tasks.CreateBundlerJar' property 'vanillaBundlerJar' doesn't have a configured value.

    Reason: This property isn't marked as optional and no value has been configured.

    Possible solutions:
      1. Assign a value to 'vanillaBundlerJar'.
      2. Mark property 'vanillaBundlerJar' as optional.

    Please refer to https://docs.gradle.org/8.0.2/userguide/validation_problems.html#value_not_set for more details about this problem.

* Try:
> Run with --stacktrace option to get the stack trace.
> Run with --info or --debug option to get more log output.
> Run with --scan to get full insights.

* Get more help at https://help.gradle.org

BUILD FAILED in 916ms
1 actionable task: 1 executed
PS D:\Folia> ```

[finite hinge]

Did you already applyPatches?

[lost needle]

Nope

[arctic tapir]

.. do that first

[lost needle]

I m kinda new so I don't know that much 😅

[lost needle]

How to

[arctic tapir]

./gradlew applyPatches

[lost needle]

K

[slim bolt]

Hmm, my jar is empty

Build successful

[arctic tapir]

now do the createReobfBundlerJar task

then in /builds/libs

[slim bolt]

is it for me?

[arctic tapir]

uh

also

[slim bolt]

Ok

Thanks, it works for me

[lost needle]

This is done now?

Starting a Gradle Daemon, 3 incompatible and 5 stopped Daemons could not be reused, use --status for details
Directory 'C:\Program Files\Eclipse Adoptium\jdk-17.0.4.101-hotspot' (Windows Registry) used for java installations does not exist

> Task :paper:applyServerPatches
Auto packing the repository in background for optimum performance.
See "git help gc" for manual housekeeping.

> Task :applyApiPatches
   Creating Folia-API from patch source...
   Applying patches to Folia-API...
Applying: Force disable timings
Applying: Region scheduler API
Applying: Require plugins to be explicitly marked as Folia supported
Applying: Add RegionizedServerInitEvent
Applying: Add API for checking ownership of region by position/entity
   Patches applied cleanly to Folia-API

> Task :applyServerPatches
   Creating Folia-Server from patch source...
Importing 22 classes from vanilla...
Importing 0 classes from library sources...
   Applying patches to Folia-Server...
Applying: Build changes
Applying: New player chunk loader system
Applying: Make ChunkStatus.EMPTY not rely on the main thread for completion
Applying: Threaded Regions
Applying: Increase parallelism for neighbour writing chunk statuses
Applying: Cache whether region files do not exist
Applying: Max pending logins
Applying: Add chunk system throughput counters to /tps
Applying: Make CraftEntity#getHandle and overrides perform thread checks
Applying: Disable mid-tick task execution
Applying: Throw UnsupportedOperationException() for broken APIs
Applying: Fix tests by removing them
Applying: Work around https://github.com/PaperMC/paperweight/issues/194
Applying: Require plugins to be explicitly marked as Folia supported
   Patches applied cleanly to Folia-Server

BUILD SUCCESSFUL in 15m 3s
4 actionable tasks: 4 executed
PS D:\Folia> 

[finite hinge]

Now you should be able to run the other one

[lost needle]

./gradlew createMojmapPaperclipJar this ?

[clear hatch]

createReobfPaperclipJar

[lost needle]

okyz

[lost needle]

this is also done

now ?

[clear hatch]

look at build/libs

[lost needle]

ahem

[clear hatch]

there should be two jars

[lost needle]

where is this located ?

[clear hatch]

from the root of the project

[finite hinge]

D:\Folia based on what you shared

[clear hatch]

the build folder

and then libs in it

[finite hinge]

I have to ask, are you a plugin developer?

[lost needle]

yeh got it

[lost needle]

nope

[finite hinge]

There are almost no plugins available for Folia right now

[lost needle]

just wanted to test

[finite hinge]

And it probably has some issues that would prevent you even wanting to run it as a "vanilla" server without plugins

And you need a $1000 CPU to make it worth using over Paper

I mean, if this is just for curiosity then sure, go for it, just don't expect to actually be able to use it right now

[lost needle]

we have a dedicated node with ryzen 7 so no issues ig

[lost needle]

yeh

just for testing

[unique forge]

uhm.. way below minimum requirements

[keen fable]

Hello. Since per-player-spawns is removed (Now, the spawning should be running Vanilla logic; except that it is calculated per region (which is what per player was effectively achieving anyways).) (https://github.com/PaperMC/Folia/commit/2474482685546616d2ec70479c6b6435b8c656db), how do i get (somewhat) vanilla mob spawning ?

[daring nimbus]

Is it not vanilla currently? Mob spawning being per region should get you a pretty vanilla-like experience

[keen fable]

It seems that reducing mob-spawning-range and monster mobcap affects spawning rate in a different way, not sure if it is normal. mb

[viral stone]

mob spawning is vanilla

per-player just added an extra set of limits to try to spread mobs out better

vanilla mob spawning was always affected by those things, just it wasn't configurable, not to mention that mojangs spawning logic was pretty much not designed for servers

[livid crag]

It’s actually closer to vanilla single players than regular paper given if multiple players are online in different regions

[barren forge]

Hey guys
Is it still the right way like in the paper readme to build Folia with those 2 commands?

[arctic tapir]

yes

[barren forge]

nvm was looking in wrong dir

thx 🙂

[barren forge]

Is this because you need a lot of Cores to use that much threads or does it have an other reason?

[livid crag]

You can run it on whatever. You may get degraded performance compare to paper

Due to the added complexity of the regioniser logic

[mild bridge]

Wait, so per-player-mobspawning isn't even an option with folia? Doesn't this mean that you run into the same spawning differences from single- to multiplayer with large and full regions?

[next bloom]

no, its calculated per region

so the mob cap is for a specific region

[livid crag]

Yeah

[next bloom]

I do wonder if there are some difference tho, like you have to separate the two players by thousands of blocks to make 2 regions

[livid crag]

Yes

[next bloom]

so that would be different from per-player spawning, where players could be separated by much less, and still see the benefits

[livid crag]

From my own testing, it ain’t “that” much

So overall it’s a net positive

[mild bridge]

That was my point, yes

Also you could theoretically chain tons of players into one region if they are positioned unfortunately

[viral stone]

now that we have mappings, it probs makes sense to actually have an alternative spawning mechanism which is actually tracked/managed per player

[livid crag]

I will love that

[rotund fossil]

how do I find precompiled jars?

of folia

There is no ETA for publicly available builds.

Does that mean i have to compile it myself

oh

alright

github actions

uwu

[strange nymph]

MultiPaper. 🙂

(It has ton of issues, we're excited for Folia as it's probably gonna be a better option.)

[livid crag]

Do you require any help for #folia-help ?

[strange nymph]

Not really. I don't see a better channel where I could post this but I think it's pretty relevant.

[livid crag]

#general for your general topic

[scenic sky]

that sure aint folia thats for sure

[prime juniper]

It tells you what to do

[scenic sky]

in the screenshot you sent here

[fair merlin]

Machine Maker is being renamed to Arrow Maker

[arctic tapir]

wrong jar

use the one in /builds/libs in the root dir

[fair merlin]

Many (most?) plugins will not work on Folia.

You'll have to see if they have support for Folia and speak to the respective plugin developers.

[arctic tapir]

pretty sure youi just need to update via

[fair merlin]

Okay it might need an update.

But either way that's a plugin issue - gotta talk to them.

[keen fable]

Hey guys! It seems that villager cannot go though nether portals, can you reproduce ? so i open an issue

[finite hinge]

Honestly I'm just impressed anyone can go through nether portals

[wicked mantle]

Do you have the other side of the portal loaded? (idk if that matters even in vanilla tho )

[keen fable]

yes !

[wicked mantle]

I can attempt to reproduce it in a little bit

[keen fable]

Other mobs can travel

And when you tp to that villager UUID it doesn't exists anymore

[wicked mantle]

Might be some wacky villager specific stuff minecraft does, would not shock me

[inner swift]

Does it just disappear?

[keen fable]

yes!

[wicked mantle]

Def sounds like a bug that I don't even need to reproduce lmfao

Probably should just open an issue for it tbh

[inner swift]

Uhhh

Oh, nevermind, this is the Folia channel

[keen fable]

Well i think it is an issue, it throws net.minecraft.ReportedException: Loading entity NBT at net.minecraft.world.entity.Entity.load(Entity.java:2502) ~[folia-1.19.4.jar:git-Folia-"ed7a5c5"]

[wicked mantle]

Oh if it throws an exception definitely then

[keen fable]

java.lang.IllegalStateException: World mismatch: expected world_nether but got world 🤔

[arctic tapir]

does it happen to other mobs?

[daring nimbus]

villager brain too small for Folia
Looking at the exception, might happen with all brain AI mobs

[keen fable]

It works fine with other mobs, it works with cows, sheeps, zombies...

It is caused by at net.minecraft.world.entity.ai.Brain.stopAll(Brain.java:415) ~[?:?]

[daring nimbus]

could you try an axolotl or some other new mob?

[arctic tapir]

that works

[keen fable]

Works fine with axolotl

[livid crag]

worth opening an issue I guess if none exists

you can reproduce it right?

[keen fable]

I opened an issue

[arctic tapir]

I can reproduce it yes

[next bloom]

yeah, I see the issue. The new entity is created with the nether world, but the current thread that it's created on is the region thread for somewhere in the overworld

[arctic tapir]

wandering trader works surprisingly

[livid crag]

make sure those steps are includes on the issue. our supreme overlord will take a look later

[visual crypt]

when relase