#Doctor Who S15E08 - The Reality War

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bitter oracle
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yeah, for as much as I don't think the Turn Left warning lands as well as the original instance, it's not really that hard to logically justify that a being that could see all of time at once would make some changes that were further along the doctor's timeline, instead of only before that point

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(most of the reason it doesn't land for me is that there's a very fair criticism of the in universe logic - if she was looking that far ahead in her own timeline, why that specific change instead of, say, stopping herself getting stranded in Pete's World)

pine grotto
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And as The Moment, Bad Wolf clearly has a personality and does things for reasons. Unlike in Parting of the Ways, where Rose is just… possessed.

golden spire
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getting stranded in petes world led to a presumably happy life with dad and metacrisis

pine grotto
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So there is an evolution that happens.

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But no one offers asks why about anything.

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And it feels like we are back to that.

bitter oracle
golden spire
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the moment pretty clearly states that they are just using the face for a point

pine grotto
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But they also use the name?

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So assuming they’re one entity seems a fair assumption, unless you want to say it’s both a benign presence trying to help but also lying, to someone who won’t understand why it’s even a lie.

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Which is how I like to imagine John Hurt on the Day of the Doctor set, having no idea what he’s saying but just a total pro about it.

bitter oracle
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checking the transcript

MOMENT: I hear you. All of you, jangling around in that dusty old head of yours. I chose this face and form especially for you. It's from your past. Or possibly your future. I always get those two mixed up.
WARRIOR: I don't have a future.
MOMENT: I think I'm called Rose Tyler. No. Yes. No, sorry, no, no, in this form, I'm called Bad Wolf. Are you afraid of the big bad wolf, Doctor?
it definitely reads to me as more that it plucked the face out of his (future) memory and that was the name that goes with it, not the moment's name

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and yeah, that particular doctor won't understand the significance of the name, but presumably with how it was already peeking ahead on his timeline, it also had an inkling that the others who would understand the significance were also going to get involved and hear the name via him

pine grotto
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But then we are back to the MO and reasons for the original Bad Wolf which implies they are the same again, name dropping to nudge the Doctor towards something.

opaque lake
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I alway assumed that was because she looked ahead and saw the threat hadn't ended so sent out some extra breadcrumbs

pine grotto
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Yes, but none of that explains why the choices got made. When this being gets going it rewrites reality, so its name having a meaning feels like it should matter. Of course, I have a headcanon reason. But so will a lot of fans, and likely dont overlap.

opaque lake
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to me it's basically a code phrase, like operation paperclip or something like that. it's just something that's supposed to stand out enough to grab their attention but not enough to really stand out to anyone else who hasn't been seeing it repeatedly

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clearly it's been chosen because it's an anagram of Torchwood

pine grotto
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You are thinking of next season, when the Doctor fights a sentient musical sting that feeds off enthusiasm. The infamous Woot Chord.

dense nova
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No you're thinking of the season after that where the doctor has to choose between getting a meal when he's been starved or saving a guy's life, Chow or Tod

near warren
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Yes, thanks the Moment. I think that's what we're seeing.

pure timber
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I don't think it's The Moment at all.

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I'm down for some Bad Wolf timey wimey interference but I think otd be kind of shitty to bookend Ncuti with 2 Sort Of Not Actually The Doctor regenerations

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If they're not willing to commit to Billie theh shouldn't have called her

dense nova
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i think it's 1) russell thinks she can do a good job and dgaf about the "rules" anymore 2) he liked working with her before and knowing that somebody is capable, reliable, and amiable is honestly like 70% of getting work in the industry 3) stunt casting to get a big pop

lone cloud
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Maybe it's because The Bad Wolf's chosen host wasn't available, being an an alternate universe and all. So Stuff is happening on that kind of level, and it goes for the next best host, and because it's struck during a regeneration, it's decided "Hey, why not? Maybe if I take this face, this colossal idiot might get the hint?"

silk mica
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For era commemoration purposes I have acquired a physical copy of DWM 💙

I know this is from before Reality War but I assume it’ll be the last time all three are on the cover, or maybe even Ncuti at all (maybe they’ll give him a big send off next issue actually)

C5F39DC8-1B2C-4520-9167-18BB71C89E78.jpg
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Hoping this will help me mourn 😔

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Also I wanted the target novel 😅

pure timber
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I keep hearing wildly conflicting things about how Ncuti decided to leave. Some are saying this was always the plan and some are saying Ncuti decided he wanted to leave for other projects so they had to rewrite the finale to give it a sense of finality. Very confusing all things considered.

dense nova
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in the unleashed he said the job is very demanding and he couldn't keep up with it forever

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but given the likely delay because disney seem to be dragging their feet on renewing the funding, it makes sense for him to decide it's better to leave for roles while he's getting offers rather than waiting around in the hopes he can carry on

obtuse echo
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Seeing how much energy he poured into the role, I totally get not being able to commit more than a few years (however many episodes it ends up being)

silk mica
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I really should watch the unleashed at some point. It felt too raw at the time and now I just keep forgetting

dense nova
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yeah he's definitely one of the more physical doctors

bitter oracle
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anything past that is relying on layers of hearsay

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which is not to say it can't be true! just that you should be aware that there's not a lot of known known details

near warren
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Could this actually be "the moment" in which whatever thar device really is (gets its universe/dimension rending power) comes in to being? The Doctor seems to have had a really unconventional regeneration (reshaping the fabric of reality?)

near warren
opaque lake
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I'm betting this will be a new entity played by Billie Piper, bringing us to 3-4 depending on how you count the bad wolf time vortex thing. This is in comparison to 3 for David Tennant and 3 for Matt Smith, 2 for Capaldi

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oh wait, Nightmare in Silver, 4 for Matt Smith

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The Doctor, The Plastic Doctor, The ship shaped like 11, The Cyber Intelligence possessing him

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10, Metacrisis, 14

tight fjord
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Tennant also played the long arms weirdo

lone cloud
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And John Smith

tight fjord
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oh, arguably true! (Although John Smith is the same physical being just not mentally, right?) . So yes-ish depending on how you count it

lone cloud
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I absolutely count that. If The Cyber Intelligence counts for Matt, John Smith absolutely counts for David

white estuary
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So Peter Capaldi is three guys burgers and fries

tight fjord
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Oh, I can certainly see the position, just think you could argue it. But it makes sense.

white estuary
pure timber
# near warren Could this actually be "the moment" in which whatever thar device really is (get...

The Moment, as explained by The Day of the Doctor, is a Time Lord weapon that has some sort of Planet Killing/Reality Destroying power that The Time Lords found so destructive they locked it deep in their vaults never to be used and even if it was about to be used the User Interface was Sentient and would do everything in its power, including Time Travel itself to find a way to convince whoever tried to use it Not to. The Moment that we meet in that episode is wearing Rose Tyler's face because it felt it was the best face to use to convince The War Doctor, Ten and Eleven not to use it to end the Time War. We the viewer know there is an extra significance wherein Rose Tyler with Reality Warping Powers is basically The Bad Wolf, an entity of extreme power derived from the Time Vortex that both existed only briefly but was so all encompassingly powerful it is now conceivable that it projected itself across all of time as a being whose seeming only motivation is to Protect The Doctor (which, in one notable instance, is what the Bad Wolf did at the end of Turn Left). In some ways The Moment Was The Bad Wolf, however briefly just in terms of function but I don't think that Sixteen (which is what im just going to call Billie Doctor until told otherwise but will also be Greatly Annoyed if I am told otherwise) has anything to do with either The Moment or The Bad Wolf

tight fjord
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Yea, just...if you're going to do this, let Billie be Sixteen.

near warren
white estuary
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Honestly, if we get a stunt Doctor every now and then. Like, a mayfly Doctor...

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I wouldn't want all of them to be past Doctor Who personnel like David and Billie, but like... We love John Hurt in this house.

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I've often suggested Helena Bonham Carter should play the part for a few specials someday.

prisma chasm
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#PoppyForDoctor

white estuary
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That said, tbh if Billie stays on for a few years, I'd be up for that too. She's a great actress. It would be a weird stunt to pull, but...

pure timber
white estuary
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Lol. Well, John Hurt did it first. :p

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And I give the 60th a lot of latitude on the basis that two out of those three specials were basically perfect in my eyes. The third was pretty good too...

pure timber
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kind of wild that in my opinion the person who had the most respect and reverance and thought for Doctor Regenerations is the same guy who wrote Curse of the Fatal Death

white estuary
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To be fair, that skit is amazing.

pure timber
white estuary
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I adore the first two. The Giggle is a bit too much for its runtime, and the game of catch doesn't quite work. But I still really like it.

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But I guess that says a lot about our different stances on this.

pure timber
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I have a litany of problems with Wild Blue Yonder but even beyond those I think it should be tried from crimes simply for introducing the Mavity joke

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RTD go to jail immediately for Mavity

white estuary
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I still love that he completely washed his hands of Dugga Doo, and it's by far the big meme this year.

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Bigger than Evil Dan.

dense nova
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Camp nonsense? In doctor who?

pure timber
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The Star Beast - goofy and fun. the ending is nonsense
Wild Blue Yonder - has some writing I really enjoy but utterly fails as a horror episode in my eyes. Mavity is tantamount to treason
The Giggle - This is almost a Batman 66 episode its so camp. Bi-generation is stupid. "Clara was killed...by a bird" is Patent Oversimplification and I will die mad about it.
The Church on Ruby Road - I mostly like this episode but you can tell that someone (Correctly) told them that The Doctor doesn't show up in it for way too long. The ending is fun but it write a check that its ass can't cash
Space Babies - Fucking Terrible Bullshit
The Devil's Chord - why is this so early in the season
Boom - Really like this one. How the fuck is it possible that it took Fifteen 6 months to show Ruby an alien planet
73 Yards - I should love this episode but I just dont think it works. Its second act is okay but thats because its The Dead Zone.
Dot and Bubble - god I wish I liked this but its so hamfisted and dumb I think it tips over into the Bad/Awkward Flavor of After School Special
Rogue - This episode is fun as hell and would be even more fun if Ruby didn't say "Bridgerton" so many goddamn times.
The Legend of Ruby Sunday - this episode thinks its so clever
Empire of Death - the reason why The Legend of Ruby Sunday is Not Clever
Joy to the World - genuinely love this one. Incredibly feel good Christmas special with some Classic Time Travel narrative nonsense

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The Robot Revolution - a pretty fun remake of Smith & Jones and a much better intro to Belinda than The Church on Ruby Road was to Ruby
Lux - This one is fun, even if I think The Pantheon are annoying
The Well - this was only ever going to Amaze or Enrage me. It didn't Enrage me.
Lucky Day - I'm sorry I just kinda don't like Ruby Sunday and this is a bad Torchwood episode
The Story & the Engine - one of the few times where it feels like Ncuti fully understood who Fifteen was and felt comfortable as him. A great episode.
The Interstellar Song Contest - I mean, this is fun but I feel like the fact I'm an American who doesn't watch Eurovision means this could never be a favorite.
Wish World - Lore Exposition: The Musical
The Reality War - Journey's End: The Remake

golden spire
dense nova
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How many in screen tho :p

lone cloud
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I would argue that there's no meaningful distinction between the endless duplicates of 12 in Heaven Sent. They are all just carbon copies of the 12th Doctor. John Smith is at least a distinct personality and person. He had his own hopes and dreams and wants and needs. Heaven Sent was just 12 in a time loop.

pure timber
opaque lake
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yes I would count both arms dude and John Smith so Tennant goes up to 5 then

lone cloud
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Do we count Time Lord Victorius as well?

opaque lake
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no

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that's just 10 giving himself a fancy nickname

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am I different person after earning my Bachelor's or Master's?

lone cloud
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I was under the impression it was a more distinct personality.

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A manifestation of The Doctor's worst aspects. His acceptance of not only being a Time Lord, but The Last of the Time Lords.

opaque lake
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no, he just got really full of himself

lone cloud
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For like, 10 minutes. Or more if we count Big Finish stuff

neon nest
prisma chasm
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BTW, bringing Archie Rani back and the real Omega is super easy, barely an inconvenience.

analog wolf
bitter oracle
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now I just wanna know what kind of time lord The Bachelor would be

pure timber
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Noted pretentious asshole Time Lord The Bachelor

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bitter oracle
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oh that prickly prick

pure timber
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his power is that he knows Latin

shrewd pilot
shrewd pilot
modest badger
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The best thing about these two seasons were The Memes

opaque lake
opaque lake
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Just thinking randomly about how actually not since Tennant in to Smith have we had a Doctor regeneration without some sort of interaction with another doctor.

War into 9 during the crossover which actually involved all the Doctors.
11 into 12 and 11 makes a phone call to Clara afterwards
12 into 13 after interacting with 1
13 into 14 after talking to her previous selves in her subconcious
14 into 15... bigeneration and they play a game together
15 into 16 after a visit from 13

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posted this here due to previous episode spoilers

prisma chasm
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13 talking to her previous selves was more about the Master take over than her regeneration.

dense nova
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But it was still in the regeneration episode

midnight laurel
opaque lake
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good point forgot about that one

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though, that's still before all the others, so that chain is still unbroken

gleaming veldt
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5 and the Watcher? 😁

prisma chasm
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(do we point out it was 4 and the Watcher?)

gleaming veldt
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4 to 5, yeah

opaque lake
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ok, that happened well before the regenerations I'm talking about

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actually wait a second, I'm not sure if the phonecall would really count, we didn't see that until after the episode with the regeneration

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so 12 forward then

gleaming veldt
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There was an article somewhere about how DW became more and more "looking back" instead of "looking forward", and when was the last time something new and lasting was introduced into the lore - and they argued that it was the Weeping Angels. (which I don't agree with)

prisma chasm
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the regeneration being an explosion of energy was a new thing

gleaming veldt
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that was before Blink, but yes
(the Judoon, the Shadow Proclamation are still used, and are S3 and S4 respectively, and I'm sure there are still newer stuff)

opaque lake
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I assume the article was written before NCuti's run? because we got Bigeneration, pantheon and so on

prisma chasm
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Does Poppy count, because she was in Space Babies then came back...

opaque lake
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new and lasting sorry missed that part

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well.... Timelord regeneration crossing gender and race I'd say counts

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which was introduced with Missy and hinted at with Smith

gleaming veldt
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well, introduced (or hinted at on screen) by mentioning The Corsair in The Doctor's Wife in S6

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right

prisma chasm
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types then deletes yeah that

gleaming veldt
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.... or The Curse of Fatal Death

opaque lake
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define lasting because...... sighs can't believe I'm going to honestly say this but

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Mavity

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2 doctors now

gleaming veldt
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I'd not consider anything repeated inside basically one story arc "lasting"

opaque lake
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oh man it actually would hav ebeen funny for him to say 'Mavity' to 13 and her have no idea what he means

gleaming veldt
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if it comes back in S4 or later, then fine

opaque lake
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honestly I'm fine with a franchise of over 60 years worth of lore using it's older stuff

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but anyways given that it's been mentioned during Ncuti's run we've had both Jo Martin as a secert past doctor and the timeless child stuff

gleaming veldt
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it's fine, just go on and find and create new stuff too, that manages to connect to the audience - and not Dugga Doo

opaque lake
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that's surviving multiple regenerations and showrunners

gleaming veldt
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Fugitive seems to be Lasting, yes

tight fjord
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really I'd argue that nearly everything "lasting" was added in the 70s

gleaming veldt
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and a great addition

tight fjord
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Like, big enemies wise, they're all first and third doctor (oh or were the sontarans first seen just before genesis?)

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The judoon are a great new addition, the angels...probably should never have been in a second story

gleaming veldt
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some parts of the Angels lore doesn't need to be repeated, and that's how Big Finish rolls with it - they are just the classic silent assassins

opaque lake
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I think they could have done a mystery episode wiht an angel, people are disappearing mysteriously and then the reveal at the end is an angel

tight fjord
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oh, I think there are things you can do, I just think the things they did do mostly made the angels less cool

opaque lake
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but the weird unkillable super beings that got made into were just too much

gleaming veldt
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parts of stories become forgotten if they're not repeated, and that seems to be that

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the whole "no strict canon" / "anthology" design helps with that

tight fjord
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But it is interesting that I can't think of a villain from the 5/6/7 era (aside from the Rani, just now) that either has been repeated or mostly is worth repeating

prisma chasm
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(and Omega, just now)

tight fjord
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Omega is from 3rd doctor

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(from the three doctors, specifically)

gleaming veldt
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The Mara only had a few stories...

prisma chasm
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two, both 5th

dark crest