#Doctor Who S15E08 - The Reality War

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

gleaming veldt
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Battle rages across the skies as the Unholy Trinity unleash their deadly ambition. The Doctor, Belinda and Ruby have to risk everything in their quest to save one innocent life.

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bitter oracle
gleaming veldt
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that's the official BBC image so I thought it's fine as a "spoiler"

prisma chasm
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Hey, D+. where's the episode??

hollow dagger
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Will be up on D+ and iPlayer at the same time as the traditional airings/cinema screenings start

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Because:

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prisma chasm
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Which is when?

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...11 hours away???

shrewd pilot
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godsdamnit, I had a spare hour this morning! Saw the thread was up, took that as signal I could go to iplayer

hollow dagger
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6:50 UK time, so about 9 and a half hours from this message

prisma chasm
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I would do one of them time things, but never got the hang

gleaming veldt
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Sorry, I usually create the thread in the morning (EU) of the day it'll be broadcast, not when it's out - and yeah, today it's coming quite late

shrewd pilot
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<t:1748713800:R>

prisma chasm
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okay, time to mute this channel until I can see it after sleep

dark crest
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I am theorizing that ||Susan and at least one other Doctor|| are showing up and thats why this episode isnt airing early on streaming

bitter oracle
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Yeah I'd personally be very surprised if at least half of your theory isn't true, just because it would feel weird to me for them not to go there.

dark crest
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Part of it is that they seem to be invoking a magic number!

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And that Id be shocked if they didnt invoke it again on the part of the heroes

lone cloud
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Is the episode uploading to Iplayer at the same time as it airs on TV, or after?

hollow dagger
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Yep

lone cloud
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I hadn't realised I had asked a yes or no question. What an educational experience.

gleaming veldt
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"inclusive or"

hollow dagger
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It is uploading to iPlayer at the same time, yes

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Unless something has changed since the last time I looked at the details

pine grotto
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Should be up now.

lone cloud
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Seems like it's taking a bit

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Nope, it just wasn't showing up for some reason,. Had to go find it

pine grotto
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Well, this certainly feels like it’s going to be the source of a lot of discussion any minute now,

hollow dagger
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Russell T Davies you magnificent bastard, what a rollercoaster that was

ionic grail
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they actually did it

hollow dagger
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Of all the things to "fix" from Chibnall's run

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I'm glad it was that one

midnight laurel
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that is... a fascinating choice for 16

ripe timber
ionic grail
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we've come full circle! It's like poetry or something

midnight laurel
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christ, and there goes the youtube channel talking about it immediately

hollow dagger
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I'm actually shocked how well that worked. Especially taking into account the many complaints that this whole season felt like Belinda was a stand in companion when they couldn't get Ruby

shrewd pilot
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I get it was likely intended as a misdirect, but wild that they used Susan and then didn't do anything with her

hollow dagger
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... For now

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Just like with The Boss

ripe timber
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That all tied together surprisingly well. I didn't know they were allowed to use stuff from Christmas specials. They mostly exist as their own things that are barely ever referenced again

bitter oracle
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huh, mixed feelings about the next doctor casting. she's a great actor but another repeat casting from early RTD doesn't feel great on paper

hollow dagger
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I punched the air when Anita came back

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all the companions

midnight laurel
bitter oracle
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but hopefully they give her a good enough run to more than outweigh that oddness

ionic grail
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I still think some of the series was written with the idea of having Ruby as the companion, but it definitely worked out really well to have all the different companions at the end

pine grotto
midnight laurel
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i'm sure she'll be great at it, but it does feel a somewhat cheap move on davies' part

shrewd pilot
lone cloud
pine grotto
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Yeah, I’m not faulting her as an actor. At all.

midnight laurel
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just sort of bracing myself for the inevitable "are you?" "no, actually" in a future scene with tennant

shrewd pilot
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it does feel it's reeking a bit of desperation frankly.

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but we'll see

lone cloud
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I'm honestly just kinda sad Ncuti is gone already.

hollow dagger
shrewd pilot
hollow dagger
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It was a good ending

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But far too soon

pine grotto
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Ncuti going now feels like such a massive waste,

lone cloud
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Poor guy never got to meet a Dalek

shrewd pilot
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hey now, there's that one short

hollow dagger
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I completely understand not wanting to hang on for the role when production might be held up

pine grotto
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Just. So hugely, vastly a waste.

balmy anchor
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My thoughts on the new episode ||really hope that bad wolf becomes relevant to the plot next season||

ionic grail
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It was a good ending, but come on, couldn't we have had a season of "The Search for Poppy"? Did he have to go straight for brute forcing it?

hollow dagger
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The BBC hasn't commissioned the next series yet

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And Disney only paid for two

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So no

pine grotto
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So.. it’s wholly possible we will have news in some form very soon.

hollow dagger
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(they will likely be greenlighting it without disney in the next week)

lone cloud
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If the 16th Doctor sticks around for more than a special or two, I'll be surprised and impressed.

shrewd pilot
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We'll see, I can't imagine Billie was signing on to not get a season, so there must be some implicit agreement from at least the Beeb

hollow dagger
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That's the rumour mill's understanding

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In that they can keep going regardless, it just won't be under Disney's requirements

shrewd pilot
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Also, this episode is clearly where a significant amount of Disney's money went, and by god it was not worth it

hollow dagger
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Jodie got hamstrung by production too, the format/filming changes

lone cloud
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I hope she does, as cynical as I am about it. I like Billie and I'm always happy to see her, and seeing her be The Doctor would be magnificent I think.

shrewd pilot
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Jodie got screwed in so many ways

hollow dagger
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But yeah, Allowing for the fact there was a whole episode before the final line, I was really happy with that

pine grotto
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Did we just go from an episode set in a reality whose central message was
“Don’t be in relationships with rightwing grifters who want to build a world for their creepy ideals” to “Billie Piper is the Doctor Now, Please Don’t Google Her Ex”

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That’s tonal whiplash, somewhat.

hollow dagger
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Not the first thing that came to mind

ripe timber
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I don't think we can blame her for what a former partner became after separation

lone cloud
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Also completely understandable. If I fumbled Billie Piper I too would lose all grasp on what is right and decent

ripe timber
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also she was married to Chris Evans (not that one) once too and I had to think for a minute what he'd done wrong before realising you meant the other one

hollow dagger
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More importantly, I think the sheer fact that the casting got through proves that RTD is a madman

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That and Lesbianising 13 retroactively

ionic grail
hollow dagger
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God that episode had a lot of stuff in it

ripe timber
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My main question: Will the 16th Doctor be getting a Magic card so I can Run Billie Piper as the Doctor and Doctor's companion?

pine grotto
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That feels like a question for Gavin.

gleaming veldt
midnight laurel
hollow dagger
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I looked at the clock and was already exhausted

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And then spent every moment of Ruby's scenes feeling dread in the worst way

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Class A experience

pine grotto
shrewd pilot
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I did not need Rusty to make the Two Rani's/Two Ronnies joke in universe

hollow dagger
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Oh I loved that

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Perfect Mrs Flood line

midnight laurel
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oh of course it's a pun, goddammit

ionic grail
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Every single Time Lord loves british TV

lone cloud
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I hope we get to see where this goes sooner rather than later.

shrewd pilot
ionic grail
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Especially the ones who don't care about Earth. They all have their favourites

hollow dagger
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I have no idea whether that plays for anyone outside the UK, but I laughed

ripe timber
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I'd been waiting for a Two Ranis joke since the bi-generation happened

pine grotto
lone cloud
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Can we recast Mickey just so 16 can show up in his and Martha's life randomly and just completely screw with them?

midnight laurel
shrewd pilot
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So, I know we didn't have any confirmation but I thought that bigeneration was implying you were jumping ahead to the regeneration and letting the old body stay on for a bit. But Rusty saved Mrs Flood so the Rani can appear again in future, which implies 14 can also just regenerate and we'll have more Doctors in future

ripe timber
white estuary
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So I guess Lungbarrow is canon now, eh?

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Also I saw this in the cinema.

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That final moment.

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I thought the roof would blow off.

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OH MY GOD

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I'm so excited, that was fantastic.

hollow dagger
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I do kind of wish The Other Rani had survived though, My one really weak point in the episode

midnight laurel
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also, i know groff's busy but we sure didn't use that rogue plotthread for anything other than moving along the doctor's doubts, huh

pine grotto
shrewd pilot
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yeah the Rogue and Susan were both just kinda thrown in as fan bait

bitter oracle
lone cloud
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Maybe it's like the Slayer line in Buffy? 14 and Mrs Flood stayed around, but they can no longer regenerate because they were no longer THE Doctor/Rani. But 15 did say something along the line of my theory that it's the defense mechanism against extinction

ionic grail
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I was thinking the sterility plot was about Looms. But now I think they were just saying that the Death Particle neutered Doc and Rani

bitter oracle
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yeah it was

hollow dagger
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Maybe both?

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Ripples backwards etc

pine grotto
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So what rumors were wrong? Was Peter Davison being back the only major rumor that didn’t pan out?

bitter oracle
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I saw a lot of people saying "I hope Omega isn't a crab thing with a huge claw" in a way that certainly felt like they were talking around a leak they couldn't directly talk about

floral folio
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Just finished the episode and...wow. DEFINITELY not what I expected and uhhhhhhhh

bitter oracle
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so that rumour didn't pan out I guess

floral folio
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Omega turning into a god didn't surprise me, him turning into...that absolutely did

pine grotto
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No one predicted that all right.

hollow dagger
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Thinking on this and I can't help but think this is another example of RTD remixing his earlier stories again. A Doctor regenerating so that a single individual he's responsible for can live.

floral folio
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Reminded me a little to much of the sutekh situation with old humanoid enemies turning into inhuman beasts

lone cloud
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Gods, I wish Omega had been some kind of crab thing. Carcinization comes for us all

bitter oracle
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this one does feel more earned by the story at least (vs "sutekh is some kind of bat dog"), but yeah I do wish it'd been humanoid omega with an updated armour design

shrewd pilot
pine grotto
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Oh, we can list the ways this was a remix of his other ones for ages, we always can. I can’t be surprised by that anymore.

hollow dagger
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I'm not saying it's as surprise, I really like it as a thematic way to engage with the stories

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It's a critique, not a criticism

pine grotto
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Well, you have an evil time lord in a citadel in the sky fueled by the Doctor’s TARDIS ruling over the world with the Doctor’s friends down below

lone cloud
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That's one of the things that's bummed me about this era so farm. I was hoping that with the updated budget we'd get to maybe see some old monsters done justice with new, good costumes. Sutehk and Omega got screwed in that department

floral folio
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I will say I find it EXTREMELY weird how the doctor basically just forced his companion to have a baby that a misogynist forced her to have in a fake housewife reality

pine grotto
hollow dagger
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But they couldn't make stuff out of whole cloth

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It had to be formed from memories

floral folio
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Like Ruby as a founding taking on Joe at least fits her story being very baby focused and on found family

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Belinda is an overworked nurse who just wanted to return to her life

bitter oracle
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feels like it would've worked better with the themes to that point if the rewrite had made her still the Doctor's child, but not Belinda's

floral folio
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Yeah "oh Poppy was taken from the memories around space babies she was part of Conrads misogynistic reality" just kinda works better and shows off more of Conrads vile nature

hollow dagger
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Within the logic of the show though, Conrad can't create. He's literally not imaginative enough.

floral folio
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Everyone was given a kid because thats what Conrad thinks makes people happy even those that dont want kids

pine grotto
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Ok, a more basic drama note.. Poppy was an awkward choice to make the emotional core of this? Because she’s too young to actually act or do much but too old to just “Be a Baby” and it leads to this weird imbalance in scenes. Actors working their hearts out and the third person in the scene isn’t reacting at all. Toddlers are hard to TV to work around.

floral folio
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I dunno I just find forcing your compassion to have a child with no agency is WEIRD

lone cloud
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You know what? Screw it. Part of restoring reality is that now Pete's World has merged with the regular one, and the Tylers are just back, meaning that there's a third Doctor out there. 10-2, Rose, 14 and 16 all bump into one another and it exactly what you expect to happen, happens

white estuary
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Interesting quotes from Russell and Billie

Screenshot_20250531-203221__01.jpg
hollow dagger
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Except that unless Belinda has some sort of maternal memory, she can't have poppy. So there's something there to create her.

opaque lake
silk mica
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I don’t know what to say

hollow dagger
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RTD and Piper directing those quotes at the BBC Director General like a threat

silk mica
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I can’t believe he’s gone

opaque lake
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so I just finished and I ahve one main question

floral folio
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Yeah I'm going to really miss Ncuti. He was a great doctor

opaque lake
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what the fuck?

silk mica
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And nobody can say I should have listened to the rumours because there’s also plenty of rumours that the show is ending and that’s clearly not true

white estuary
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Oh, the rumours aren't reliable.

silk mica
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At least I can join with the wtf for once

gleaming veldt
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Ncuti feels like someone who would happily jump on the Big Finish train

white estuary
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The going rumour before now was that it would be an open ended regeneration featuring a new design for the Daleks.

lone cloud
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I can already tell Ncuti is gonna love the con circuit

white estuary
opaque lake
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so..... that was a journey

floral folio
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The episode felt like 10% part 2 and 90% getting the doctor to make himself regenerate

shrewd pilot
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I am glad we got a "Oh you redecorated? I don;t like it...." in a doctor reappearance

hollow dagger
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There's gonna be so many good Gatwa cosplays.

opaque lake
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First of all, I was right, multiple doctors

lone cloud
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Just once I want a Doctor to say they like a new Tardis

gleaming veldt
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they could take Jodie for a ride of 12 stories, and she's also incredibly busy

shrewd pilot
pine grotto
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Ok. A real question.. if this isn’t ok, just say so. Did the Doctor just… take their own life? It feels like that was what just happened.

shrewd pilot
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for her own, I grant you

opaque lake
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second of all, I got what I wanted for once with a regeneration

hollow dagger
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Yes, explicitly. Just like 10.

floral folio
opaque lake
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for it to not be announced ahead of time

hollow dagger
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For the sake of a child

bitter oracle
polar cradle
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HO HO HOLY lrrEFF

gleaming veldt
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a Big Finish story recording is usually 2-3 days per boxed set

opaque lake
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I really liked that finale, I do think it dragged a bit at points but as Ncuti's goodbye I think it went rather well. For a brief moment I thought we might get Jo Martin

silk mica
polar cradle
pine grotto
bitter oracle
opaque lake
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I kind of love that for once The Doctor's plan was to just shoot a motherfucker

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no moralizing, no tricking, no debating, just blast the motherfucker

pine grotto
dense nova
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The sixteenth doctor upon regenerating:

image0.gif
floral folio
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I can't believe they just casually killed the Rani right after she returned

silk mica
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I just… I really loved this Doctor… this must have been what it was like to fall in love with Nine

gleaming veldt
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... and still not ginger

midnight laurel
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"you should shoot gods in the face with the power of a billion supernovas" is a good moral

opaque lake
floral folio
pine grotto
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Hey, there is a thought. Will this impact Big Finish’s big season of 9 and Rose? it feels like it has to.

opaque lake
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question, the genetic explosion?

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is that what the master did?

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during Chibnall's run?

lone cloud
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I remember being kinda angry when 9 regnerated. I had no idea that was a thing when it happened, and I had grown to love him so fast. Luckily, 10 won me over very, very fast

bitter oracle
white estuary
pine grotto
opaque lake
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ok thought so

bitter oracle
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(it was ko sharmus who eventually actually used it though)

pine grotto
white estuary
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The Time Lord sterility is definitely a Marc Platt thing though.

pine grotto
opaque lake
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so... 'regeneration energy' is basically just magic now?

dense nova
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For half a second I thought rtd was gonna make the looms canon

opaque lake
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it kind was before

white estuary
floral folio
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I am a bit worried about 16, I expect she is going to have some specials before regenerating again. If she gets full seasons thats nice but its definitely going to be weird. They used the revisit to 10 to explain him settling down and getting therapy but unless they go deep into bad wolf or stuff like that the doctor looking like Rose is gonna be...odd

hollow dagger
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It'll be the same trick as Capaldi

opaque lake
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I can safely say I never expected that to be the face the doctor regenerated into

dense nova
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Also I'm convinced now if you say the chibnall era was bad around rtd he'll hunt you for sport

hollow dagger
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Honestly, the respect has been entirely surprising to see

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That and the feeling of owing Jodie

dark crest
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WELP I got spoiled again

dense nova
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"GET IT? I'M HUNTING YOU LIKE TZIM SHAH! THE WOMAN WHO FELL TO EARTH WAS A GREAT OPENER!"

pine grotto
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Am I the only one who thought The Vlinx was sorely underused?

hollow dagger
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Vlinx in a box was a great gag

floral folio
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In regards to the sterility and Belindas child. I just wish they had Belinda talk about wanting to be a mother but not being able to because she is sterile. It would give a connection between her and the doctor and make giving her a kid actually feel noteworthy and helpful instead of whatever this was

bitter oracle
floral folio
opaque lake
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so....... this is a very big reach but I am noticing something. First Woman Doctor regenerates back into Popular Male Doctor. First Black (main) Doctor regenerates into Popular White Companion.

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feels like softening the blow a bit

bitter oracle
hollow dagger
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Sometimes you really need the commissioning people to sign off on the next series

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And nostalgia is king

opaque lake
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I'm totally making things up probably

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anyways, I'm going to say that was a great finale and while we technically got an undo button again this one felt set up properly in that it was all a dream world and we knew that going in

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and there was an honest sacrifice

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the vanishing coat was a great bit

pine grotto
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Look, Russell just wants you to remember how every single casting choice he made for 2005 was just perfect in every way. With certain exceptions.

lone cloud
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The Doctor's Costume Change was some of the most nonsense Magic that's happened yet

polar cradle
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I'm rather annoyed that Susan Foreman didn't show up again

floral folio
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I like that Ncuti's final outfit involved a skirt. Showing us how one of the big things about 15 is his comfort in himself

opaque lake
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my criticisms:

  1. some of the music choices didn't quite fit right in my opinion
  2. felt weird for Kate to call herself the Doctor's child
  3. it dragged out the goodbye with Poppy a bit much
  4. lack of Susan
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also that was new footage for Matt right?

floral folio
pine grotto
polar cradle
pine grotto
opaque lake
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well, we had Jodi still in a proper cameo

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I said multiple Doctors and I got 3 of them showing up in addition to Ncuti

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me messaging my sister:

image.png
pine grotto
opaque lake
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yeah, 3 other doctors

hollow dagger
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I have a suspicion Susan keeps going in the same way the Boss thread does

pine grotto
opaque lake
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oh are you counting Billie

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yeah ok

pine grotto
opaque lake
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I was thinking more about during the adventure

pine grotto
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I’m not sure about a lot of what happened but that part seems concrete

lone cloud
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I think everyone RTD cast in 05 WAS perfect. Sure, we've found out Noel and John are awful, but they did play their parts quite well.

opaque lake
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I am imagining the phone call "Hi Billie" "Hi Russell" "Hey do you wann-" "YES" "You didn't let me finish" "Don't care, yes" "you really want me to finish this time"

opaque lake
hollow dagger
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100%

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And why he still decries RTD at every chance he gets

lone cloud
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Seems likely honestly. I know his beef is alrgely with RTD and Julie Gardner, and some others at that level, but I'm guessing a big part of that is because they let John get away with his shit

pine grotto
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The one director was also especially a major, major issue

gleaming veldt
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Billie was always incredibly enthusiastic in Big Finish BTS recordings too, she's been doing it for a long time

pine grotto
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She’s never been prolific at BF, but she tends to put a lot in it.

silk mica
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Couldn’t they just have announced it gah

pine grotto
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And she’s back with Eccleston there in a month or two in a huge way.

gleaming veldt
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she has her own series with the Dimension Cannon

opaque lake
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so, whatever happens with 16 they better crossover with 10/14/metacrisis

lone cloud
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Billie was one of the highlights in KAOS for me, and she was barely in it. I just wanna see her get more work in genre stuff like Doctor Who.

opaque lake
gleaming veldt
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yep, they're always on the spot with these 🙂

pine grotto
dense nova
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Gosh big finish and their random sales!

polar cradle
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NGL I was absolutely expecting we were gonna be getting something like what was gonna happen with Power of the Doctor (ie regeneration start but not finished) right until Billie's face appeared

lone cloud
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Martha is the last RTD 1 companion to not come back now. If there's anyone I want to see 16 interact with, it's Martha. Because that's gonna be a mind fuck and a half

opaque lake
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anyone got the gift of prophecy meme handy?

polar cradle
gleaming veldt
hollow dagger
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Assuming production starts next year, 2026, and we get the usual length of (production) time, it's not inconceivable that Piper ends up in the role during the 65th anniversary

pine grotto
gleaming veldt
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now let her meet The Moment

lone cloud
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It's wild to think it's been 20 years

gleaming veldt
lone cloud
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Hoping she brings some of that unhinged energy Rose could have to the role.

hollow dagger
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Good first words for that vibe

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Completely erased the fact that they were spoken to Joy

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The sentient star

lone cloud
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I wonder if there's any connection between Joy and the Star from 42?

hollow dagger
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God I hope so

gleaming veldt
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If you want to

floral folio
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I am so curious why they brought Rose back into the story

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like narratively

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they have been building up Susan for awhile

pine grotto
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I kind of want her to do something totally new, and just bring her experience of the show to it. I feel like 14 being essentially 10 again really wasn’t the most they could do. Surprising acting choices are the best case scenario.

gleaming veldt
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14 and 10 were very different though apart from being played by the same actor

hollow dagger
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14 was a need to slow down and find his friends, 15 was a new lease on life with comfort and joy, 16 is... I want to argue for "potential"?

lone cloud
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I think Billie very much has it in her to do an Excellent Doctor, using her experiences as Rose to shape that. She's an excellent Boaster for example.

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TBH, 14 felt like he was ramping up 10's Sad Boy Vibes to the max for the most part

floral folio
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12 revisiting a face was to tell him he is a good person
14 revisiting a face was telling him to get therapy
16 revisiting the face of a major companion is...to what?
14 and 15 already gained the ability to tell people they love them and wish they said it to Rose

hollow dagger
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And 13 at least realised it in the end

lone cloud
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Maybe 16 is tell The Doctor they need to be better about checking in on the ones they love

hollow dagger
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Yeah, 16 feels like it needs to be about building on that

floral folio
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revisiting Rose to gain the ability for self love and love of others would be poetic but 15 got that in spades

floral folio
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they showed 15 kinda pushing Ruby away

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and getting ready to go with Belinda more

lone cloud
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It would tie in with the slow running Susan plot pretty well

dense nova
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15 died because there was one person he couldn't bear to see a universe without, and 9 died because there was one person he couldn't bear to see a universe without - in his last moments he thought of rose and...oh, hello!

bitter oracle
polar cradle
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Yeah, if 16 is the one who returns to Susan, I certainly won't complain

floral folio
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16 returns to get Rose back and we get a very funny episode 😛

lone cloud
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Her boasting about killing the Emperor was exactly what I was thinking of. Rose could scare some of the baddest Daleks out there.

hollow dagger
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Get Lady Cassandra back and have her furious that the Doctor took that body after forcing her out

floral folio
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yeah Im curious if this is going to be Rose but the doctor or the doctor but Rose

polar cradle
dense nova
#

Another thing jack has dreamed about...

floral folio
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I will say doing the same thing a 2nd time in quick succession is...odd
"oh the doctor is regenerating who is going to be and ITS A RETURN?!"

polar cradle
gleaming veldt
hollow dagger
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Okay but does 16 meet Rose

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Noble

lone cloud
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If allowed to, I think Billie will very much put her own spin on 16. I don't think she'll just try and some combination of Rose and Doctor.

polar cradle
hollow dagger
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I am here for the remix era

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Engage with your own text, it's great, have fun with it

dense nova
#

New who is 20 years old, the hip and happening 18-35 demographic grew up watching doctor who, some looking backwards and bringing the toys out of the chest is to be expected imo

hollow dagger
#

Mind you, I have also appreciated the sheer depths of the non nu-who pulls

#

I have seen many people complaining about the idea that someone new to the series with Gatwa somehow has to understand the importance of Mel twice over

#

In both finales

floral folio
#

I enjoy the threat of Omega, having Omega become a giant skeleton baby and eat the Rani before being sealed again is...well its like taking out an old toy, showing it off, immediatly breaking it, and tossing it back in the chest

lone cloud
#

Billie is on record as saying that Rose would have loved 13 just as she loved 9 and 10, so I would find it interesting for her Doctor to revisit that kind of idea with another old companion.

floral folio
#

now Omega going foward has the expectation of evil skeleton thing that wants to eat time lords and they got basically nothing out of it besides a quick scare

dense nova
#

The word I keep coming back to when I think of Billie as the doctor is sly

floral folio
#

having Omega be a threat that never actually showed up would have been a lot better imo

hollow dagger
lone cloud
#

See, I think Chaotic. I think we're about to have the biggest Diasaster Bi in the Tardis yet

hollow dagger
#

Okay take that idea

#

Add Georgia Tennant

#

We do need to get to Susan somehow

lone cloud
#

After her recent comments, Georgia might actually be down for that

floral folio
bitter oracle
dense nova
#

16 is gonna avoid Donna like the plague because she knows she'll never hear the end of it

floral folio
#

oh 100%

#

huh I just realized something tragic

#

Rogue is gay and searching for the doctor

lone cloud
#

What's that recap series with the weird janky Tardis called again?

floral folio
#

Rogue very recently stated he had feelings for him

lone cloud
#

They should do that, but it's just Donna ripping various other characters for an hour

floral folio
#

and I know the doctor is beyond gender but the visuals if they bring him back arnt great...

dense nova
gleaming veldt
#

https://youtu.be/dz-35CJcgCc
I really hope the TARDIS interior doesn't win the Most Underused Prop award and they keep it mostly intact

YouTube
Doctor Who
Ncuti Gatwa Says Goodbye to Doctor Who | Doctor Who

As Ncuti Gatwa hangs up his keys to the TARDIS, we catch up with him about his highlights of playing the Doctor and his message for the fans of the Whoniverse.

Subscribe to Doctor Who for more exclusive videos: https://bbc.in/SubscribeToDoctorWho

WATCH MORE:
Compilations: https://bbc.in/DWCompilations
Regenerations: https://bbc.in/DWRegener...

▶ Play video
hollow dagger
#

I think Jonathan Groff's awards will keep him busy for a while

#

Speaking of returns, I hope Murray Gold hangs on. I think he'd said he would stay as long as Gatwa did, but I feel like 16 is an interesting enough idea to keep him. I really don't think this episode especially hits as well without that score.

dense nova
#

Is rogue ever stated to be explicitly gay and not bi or pan tho

floral folio
#

fair, though they have made the gayness of their dynamic a pretty central thing. Even repeating it this episode

#

with Anita

polar cradle
#

That message from Rogue last week really felt like tying a bow on the loose end imo

floral folio
#

though if he is bi/pan and comes back and falls for 16 then the amount of times Billie Piper had a pan spaceman from the future fall for her would be...more than once

lone cloud
#

Thanks to Captain Jack, it's just kinda a Thing that Humans in the Future are all just a bit Queer. Also, Leaving Rogue trapped in a place with something that eats people seems like it's gonna be a Bad Time for him

shrewd pilot
#

Something my other discords have picked up on - Billie is just credited as "and Introducing BILLIE PIPER" whereas traditionally it's "and introducing PETER CAPALDI as The Doctor" etc

lone cloud
#

Yeah, that's already A Problem.

dense nova
#

Yeah I saw that too but maybe rtd just wants the speculation to keep the conversation going

hollow dagger
#

Perhaps Piper is The Boss

floral folio
#

introducing Billie Piper as the Valeyard 😛

hollow dagger
#

Or more likely, hugely trending online discussions help budget negotiations

floral folio
#

Im still waiting for them to pull to cord that with stories making people into powerful myths that its affecting the doctor

polar cradle
floral folio
#

like its been known for awhile that the doctor is basically a myth across the galaxy

hollow dagger
#

the woman who reminded him about the little people of the universe

floral folio
#

even its like "of course you can defeat the gods you are one of them"

#

not even bringing in timeless child god of life stuff

shrewd pilot
#

From a friend on another server though I don't have a source -

Confirmation that Gatwa leaving was a last minute thing because of Disney
He had planned to do more seasons and his regeneration scene at the end was the reshoots
You know how Jodie Whitaker turned up at the end?
Originally it was going to be her regenerating
She would have regenerated into Gatwa and closed the weird loop that had been created with the whole "David Tennant is back and got split in two" stuff

hollow dagger
#

Does that close the loop?

shrewd pilot
#

who fuckin knows

hollow dagger
#

It feels like it just makes a new circle outside the actual line

ionic grail
#

So was the bone palace actually the tardis? And have we seen the tardis turn into a big sinister organic building in one of the novels or something?

hollow dagger
#

That was my read, yeah. It was spreading out from the "nursery"

white estuary
#

But yes, Gatwa leaving early being due to delayed renewal is known. It's been the word on the street for like a year.

polar cradle
#

I keep forgetting there were some big leaks that I had paid no attention to

white estuary
#

Hollywood beckons so an amicable parting was agreed.

#

And it's a shame, but he did two weeks of reshoots to make it a regeneration.

hollow dagger
#

He's been able to line up theatre work for as soon as this autumn, so it's no shock he wouldn't want to keep his schedule open

polar cradle
#

Right, other issues with upfronting so much production in advance

white estuary
#

Well, originally it looked like seasons 3 and 4 would be shot back to back just a year or so after season 2 wrapped. Possibly sooner. Instead, we're nearly a year on and haven't even had a renewal agreed, because Disney is dragging their feet and the BBC doesn't want to make a decision until the financing is clear.

#

But the economics of streaming don't work, so Disney is making cuts rather than spends. And Doctor Who has done... good, but not amazing, on Disney+.

#

So it's a shame, but the fact is, this just how it had to be, so Ncuti just has to move on.

#

The good news is BBC insiders have been saying for ages that they're happy with Doctor Who, and it will go on. It's just a matter of whether they'll have Disney money or not.

dense nova
#

I don't see the 13 erasing 14 by turning into 15 ergo 15's regeneration was a pickup shoot working because that'd mean getting Whittaker back for reshoots too

polar cradle
white estuary
#

The current word is that they'll switch back to 2K shooting (rather than the Disney mandated 4K) and make some other clever budgeting choices and continue on. But because of the delay, we won't have another full season till 2027. (There's just not time to finish a season for next year.)

hollow dagger
#

IIRC the way I'd seen it be broken down was that Disney's budget put a lot aside for the purposes of marketing/streaming costs, so the BBC could pick it up and simply not have to do that.

#

Yeah, the 4k streaming especially

white estuary
#

You say that, but Disney's marketing for the show was really crap.

hollow dagger
#

I suspect a lot of the BBC led marketing was part of that budget

white estuary
#

Well, the BBC marketing was only okay.

lone cloud
#

Disney? Doing a bad job at Marketing things in 2025? I would have never believed it

white estuary
#

The Disney deal would have been in the works in 2021/2022. In the time since then, a lot of shit has changed. Marvel has sunk a lot, steaming budgets have inflated but profits have shrunk, and Disney's big acquisitions of the past several years (Fox and Hulu in particular) have racked them up huge debts that they're at a loss to pay off.

And none of their Star Wars projects have been as big as they'd hoped.

lone cloud
#

They also keep making live action remakes nobody asked for

white estuary
#

Doctor Who was always in a good position because Disney only had to spend a fairly small portion to get the show, compared to making their own original TV, but the past few years it's become clearer and clearer that the streaming TV model doesn't work, financially.

white estuary
#

The real shitter to them was COVID killing the parks.

hollow dagger
white estuary
#

Something like 75% of their earnings pre covid were from the parks.

bitter oracle
white estuary
#

Then COVID killed the parks and they haven't quite recovered.

white estuary
#

If you don't know whether you're going to have a future at all, just tell the whole story and move on to the next thing.

lone cloud
#

Personally, I didn't watch Andor season 2 because I watched season 1 and hated it

white estuary
#

I haven't seen any of it. I want to, but I'm badly Star Wars'd out. 😅

hollow dagger
#

Gilroy is on record saying this:

You know, look, in a nutshell, we started this—it was almost like Pearl Harbor. It was literally: we need big shows, big shows. Build us a cathedral. Build an aircraft carrier. That was the mandate. Thrones was out there. Streaming was going to be everything. So, the mandate in the beginning was adhesion. We said we’d do eight episodes. They said they wanted twelve. And so, it was like, okay. Scale was everything.

So, we built a machine that would make that first season. And I’ll come back to the system in one second. The second season—by the time we’re releasing, because it takes so long to do the show—by the time we’re releasing and starting to do the second season, well, as you well know, that had really, really changed. Everything had contracted. Streaming wasn’t the golden goose everyone thought it was going to be.

white estuary
#

I'm sorta Disney'd out tbh. Marvel got bad after Infinity War and Star Wars has been floundering... I don't like the live action remakes...

lone cloud
#

There's very little Star Wars I don't like, and Andor is among it.

polar cradle
white estuary
#

Yeah.

hollow dagger
#

Diego Luna being 60 is not workable

#

But yeah, I'd assume that there's going to be a discussion with Disney in the next week when the streaming figures come in, and when they offer too low a budget, the BBC brings it back in house

white estuary
#

Eh, I think if Disney offers less, the BBC will take it but won't give them as much a say, and they'll pull it back to US and Canada only.

#

And probably shop it around a bit for better offers.

#

But yeah, BBC and Wolf Studios are probably going to go ahead without Disney, that's my guess.

hollow dagger
#

I might be off base, but I remember something about the classic streaming rights reverting too?

#

Because in terms of library content, that I can see potentially being a sweetener for D+ internationally that could convince them to hang on

white estuary
#

They've fallen off DC, yeah.

white estuary
#

Julie Gardner said something interesting at a panel a couple of months ago. I forget where, when, exactly...

#

But she was talking about negotiating with streamers while their market collapses.

#

I expect they're going to pull out every stop they can.

dense nova
#

if doctor who pulls the same numbers to d+ as, say, star wars skeleton crew, but they only have to pay a quarter they do to still get 8 episodes of content out of it, then it makes a lot of sense to keep funding it

white estuary
#

Yeah

#

Perhaps one sticking point is the late renewal.

#

Perhaps for future seasons, they want more stability.

pine grotto
#

A lot of how this gets decided a Disney has nothing whatsoever to do with Doctor Who or the BBC and four months ago an unhinged man rewrote those calculations

lone cloud
#

I could see them giving some kind of hard deadline on renewal if they work out another deal

modest badger
#

What a weird episode. Not sure the episode titles works. Felt like it needed more time. An emotional hook was forced onto me and I despised it. I think Belinda being a mother could have been foreshadowed better to make it less, weird.

pine grotto
#

Speaking of which, how do we all feel about this story as anti-Fascist polemic? I felt that was one of the strongest things about Wish World, giving a connecting thread to the story a lot of RTD finale setups don’t have. I’m not sure that carried through to the end here,

#

Fundamentally. the Rani has always been a despot

white estuary
#

It did something Russell's done a few times before, of commenting on (by depicting a sort of a version of) something horrific in the real world, and then moving on with the scifi stuff so it doesn't slip into territory too dark for the 10-year-olds in the audience (who already have far too depressing enough a world to live in).

modest badger
#

The Timelord Supremacy came a little like Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain, and I would have liked more time dwelling in that uncomfortableness.

white estuary
#

Like, what happens after the Doctor, Jack, and Martha leave Utopia? Fuuuucking horrific.

hollow dagger
#

I think there's something interesting in the end state for Conrad to that effect. Making him happy by literally being of service to other people.

white estuary
white estuary
#

And particularly like...

#

He's an asshole. There's no two ways about it; he was a huge dillhole. But he was that way because he's deeply unhappy, and he could just make better choices and be a happy person, and not an asshole.

hollow dagger
#

Also really pointed in the framing device of Anita too, it's possible to find meaning and purpose in helping people, you don't need power.

white estuary
#

But who he was by the time of Lucky Day/Wish World is not someone who would make better choices.

hollow dagger
#

But when Anita gets magical wish power in her key, she uses it to find and help her friend.

white estuary
#

Doctor Who is very good at killing its baddies with empathy. That's often the best ending in these stories. Conrad being given a better life... Boom Town, of course, one of my favourite ever episodes.

pine grotto
#

But then Anita is, innately better than the mashup of terrible real world people that Conrad is.

hollow dagger
#

Well yes.

#

Because that's the point. Conrad is a guy who would facilitate fascism because he thinks it will make him happy and whole.

white estuary
#

Right.

hollow dagger
#

Literally facilitate it in fact

white estuary
#

And it doesn't.

hollow dagger
#

God the performance he gave with both Rani's was excellent actually

white estuary
#

There's a real genius to how Russell wrote Conrad's whole... arc here.

hollow dagger
#

Just so desperate

white estuary
#

Both Ranis played him from different angles.

#

He wanted to impress one like a mother, he wanted to impress the other like a crush.

#

But in neither case was he working on himself.

patent pelican
#

I

#

Uh

white estuary
#

YEP

#

Welcome to the thread.

patent pelican
#

WHAT THE FUCK

white estuary
#

RIGHT!

hollow dagger
#

I think that's also maybe why I would have preferred the other Rani surviving

patent pelican
#

This was such a fever dream of an episode

#

The ending was just

#

WHAT

#

This episode had everything

white estuary
pine grotto
#

But Archie Panjabi was just good casting, she really made her feel like the same horrible person from the original show

white estuary
#

Agreed.

hollow dagger
#

Thematically, I know why the clearly fascist and evil Rani had to go while the more whimsical one could survive

#

But I think that little tinge of bitterness from the other one escaping would have perhaps undercut some of the more cloying aspects of the rest of the episode.

lone cloud
#

It just kinda sucks that the Rani with a personality is the one that died, instead of the one that was just comic relief

white estuary
#

Yeah.

#

All that said...

#

I swear, this season...

#

Not a single dud. Just bangers top to bottom.

lone cloud
#

Eh, I'd disagree, but it's been pretty darn good

hollow dagger
#

Probably the highest hit rate ever?

patent pelican
#

I am so confused

hollow dagger
#

Which considering it had way fewer chances

polar cradle
dense nova
#

series 1 and series 10 are its main competitors for me

white estuary
#

Series 1 is close to a perfect season of television, for me.

hollow dagger
#

A lot of people really dislike the Slitheen

#

But 9 is pretty strong, that's true. Providing you can tolerate Ashildr

white estuary
#

I thought series 9 was all over the map.

#

Series 10 was way better imo.

polar cradle
dense nova
#

i've been thinking recently that series 9 is very much moffat getting too lost in the expanded universe weeds - not in bringing in all the names and plots from his favourite novels and audios, but going into that "how far can i push this world and these concepts" in a way that maybe isn't the best for the main show

lone cloud
#

I like the Slitheen. They're one of the best designed Nu Who aliens IMO. I also just kinda appreciate them as bumbling Space Lizard People who Run the World for Money

white estuary
#

Yeah, I love the Slitheen.

lone cloud
#

They're are individual choices I don't care for from Series 1 of Nu Who, but by and large I do think it's an excellent series of TV

ionic grail
white estuary
#

They laugh about farts and then rip you to shreds with their fingers and wear your skin as a disguise so they can convince the governments of the world to launch nukes...

#

It's so good.

#

Beautifully grotesque.

lone cloud
#

The biggest crime of Nu Who season 1 is wasting Simon Pegg in a bit role

white estuary
#

He was nominally the villain of the week, to be fair.

lone cloud
#

He was the Villain of the Weeks C-3PO

white estuary
#

Well, yeah.

#

Mind you, that Villain of the Week is only in about three shots and has no dialogue.

lone cloud
#

But it was fairly early in his career so he gets a pass

white estuary
#

He should be given a proper villain role in Doctor Who one of these days.

#

Or maybe one of those "almost companion" supporting characters you get every now and again.

lone cloud
#

Agreed. Part of me would love it if he and Nick Frost played The Master and The Doctor

polar cradle
white estuary
dense nova
#

INTRODUCING
Simon Pegg as
THE MEDDLING MONK

white estuary
#

ooooooooooooo

#

gimme gimme gimme

#

Actually though

#

Nick Frost would be a better Meddling Monk, I think.

lone cloud
#

Oooooh, that could be so good. Pegg as the Monk, being an absolutely anal nerd, going through time fixing "mistakes"

dense nova
#

maybe the monk bigenerated

lone cloud
#

Pegg representing the shitty elements of the fandom would go hard

dark crest
#

THIS EPISODE IS HEARTBREAKING DEAR LORD

lone cloud
#

All this said, it would be nice if, just once, The Doctor could meet another Time Lord who wasn't a complete dick

dense nova
#

"this is the attendant, he used to to work in the space 7/11 and sell me space weed"

white estuary
#

"Go Space Broncos!"

lone cloud
#

You're telling me that these people. who have access to all of time and space, are either boring civil servants or deranged lunatics? Not another one of them is just a joy-filled traveller who wanders the universe, enjoying all it has to offer?

dense nova
#

well, yes, the corsair, but maybe we're not gonna go there

white estuary
#

Well, there's the Corsair, but you'd have to deal with creator-owned character copyright...

#

yeah

#

There's also Susan.

lone cloud
#

A Time Lord who's stuck in a Time Loop during some kind of Roman Bacchanalia, who gets freed by The Doctor only for them to complain because they willingly stuck themselves in that loop for fun

#

"This one time, I partied with the Rolling Stones and I woke up the next day and I had regenerated. I have no idea how those guys survived. I think they might not be human"

prisma chasm
#

Well, glad I muted this channel before watching!

#

I loved the line "I was expecting him, he always turns up" 😉

dense nova
#

i know the joke was about tennant, but i like to think the doctor was actually thinking about 2, given how often he came back

bitter oracle
opaque lake
#

yeah that's where I'd put them, they're fine

dark crest
#

RUSSELL YOU MAD BASTARD

(Re: last 10 seconds)

dense nova
#

tvtropes is listing billie as the 16th doctor (with a disclaimer that it's not exactly sure she is the doctor), while tardis wiki does not yet list her as the doctor

hollow dagger
#

Yeah, the official statement from Piper/RTD are further up the chat and they're very explicitly not saying what the deal is

prisma chasm
#

She's returned as The Moment!

dense nova
#

the master did regenerate into the doctor before, maybe they re-regenerated into the doctor?

silk mica
#

Pffffff I started scrolling and realised belatedly I was looking at hour old messages

#

I’m just gonna scoot on down here

dense nova
#

or maybe what we saw was the camera passing through 15's regeneration just as rose teleported into the tardis and addressed the real 16

silk mica
#

I have watched the third Paddington film with my parents and feel a bit better

#

Mrs Brown said something about “it’s just… what comes next” regarding a whole secret bear orange grove thing and that helped, but I have settled on the overriding feeling of Cut Off Too Soon, so I shall take some time to mourn that

#

Luckily, Ralph Cornish exists in a hermetically sealed little time capsule and nobody can ever hurt him in there, so I have plenty of fic to be getting on with while I adjust

#

I’m also a little bit looking forward to whatever the hell Billie Piper does and then hopefully meeting a new Doctor after that

#

Surely Billie Piper is not full on doing a run as the Sixteenth Doctor

prisma chasm
#

And Rosie sure... sat at a console...

opaque lake
#

I mean, one person just held a door the entire time

dense nova
#

surely russell isn't teasing us with susan two seasons in a row and bringing back the rani and omega in the same story, as well as giving us a surprise multi-doctor episode and a surprise regeneration

hollow dagger
#

Don't forget setting up for the spin off series

opaque lake
#

yeah I noticed a spinoff hook in there

#

hunting glitches...

silk mica
#

I believe the spin-off largely concerns ||sea devils|| (suddenly worried that’s a leak but I don’t think so I think I read it in an official article)

hollow dagger
#

No, that's a given. The teaser trailer went up with the episode

#

And I meant more the state/makeup of UNIT by the end

#

Though don't think I didn't notice Battleship Unit's bridge and helm before we go to the sea themed spin off

dense nova
#

i like that the building rotated by an old fashioned sailing ship wheel

floral folio
#

With the signal they sent out to unit workers there is a real chance Donna got pinged 🤣

#

Also something I'm surprised never showed up this season was that the doctor already lived through May 24th as 14

#

Like the guy spent at least a year having a vacation with the Nobels

#

Also on that note once again Ruby having weird powers because...

#

I enjoy her having them

#

But they just kinda exist

dense nova
#

more time, more money, more potential overshadowing of ncuti

prisma chasm
#

Ruby had that because of 73 Yards (confirmed by RTD in the BTS)

hollow dagger
#

I wonder if Ruby's powers are because of the rewriting reality to make sure she exists

#

Ah okay

floral folio
#

Yes but 73 yards happened because?

dense nova
#

good question

#

next question

prisma chasm
hollow dagger
#

Well the magic had to happen in the first place

#

The fairy circle thing

floral folio
#

But 73 yards was hinted to be related to her other powers

#

So it just...happened because it did

dense nova
#

it's an unknowable magic thing that's spookier and more mysterious because it's an unknowable magic thing

floral folio
#

I definitely see what people mean when they say RTD goes for emotions over lore

silk mica
#

The fairy circle definitely kicked things off though

hollow dagger
#

Unless what RTD means is the memory proofing continues because of 73 yards experience, but the fact she's memory proof in the first place is reality warping effects

#

I feel like that squares the circle

dark crest
floral folio
#

Oh also technically 73 yards never happened because she stopped herself...

dark crest
#

Lore has always been malleable in Doctor Who

#

and it always should be imo

dense nova
#

remind me again of the one definitive origin of the cybermen

hollow dagger
#

Well 73 yards happened, it just happened in a loop

#

See that speech from 15 on events happening to someone and mattering

dark crest
dense nova
#

remind me again of the exact number and order of the incarnations of the doctor

hollow dagger
#

I did really appreciate the hard pivot into Ruby character work at the 3/4 mark though.

#

Brutally effective music and Gibson did a great job selling the sheer exasperation

floral folio
#

My issue is the emotional resonance is nice but it often feels like things contort to make it resonant

#

Like everything with Poppy this episode

dark crest
#

I think the Poppy thing definitely needed more build

#

I agree with that

floral folio
#

I at the very least wish Belinda stated she wanted a child at some point in the series

dark crest
#

100%

floral folio
#

Because it feels like she completely changes as a character in the last two episodes to being completely centered around Poppy and being a mother

hollow dagger
#

It was backfilled, but I think the threat doesn't work if it's more clear that there is a child back in the "real" world

floral folio
#

Despite NEVER stating she wanted a child

hollow dagger
#

That and it's always incredibly clear that she's trying to get back to her family

dense nova
#

honestly i feel like they lost the thread of belinda being a different and unique character somewhere earlier on in the series

#

so i didn't think momlinda was a swerve from good to bad so much as a swerve from generic to baffling after she'd already swerved from interesting to generic

hollow dagger
#

The whole thing with Belinda was that she was always just someone normal who got swept along and stranded

floral folio
#

And wanted to leave

hollow dagger
#

I don't necessarily think that actually needs an "arc"

#

Other than "wants to get home" - "gets home"

floral folio
#

But suddenly making her a mother basically against her will is...odd

hollow dagger
#

I really do not understand where the "against her will" read has come from, especially as I'm seeing it outside the server too

dense nova
#

it's not explicitly stated that she wanted it, but i'm not sure if that really means against her will

#

she definitely doesn't try to stop the doctor from rescuing poppy

floral folio
#

She never stated she wanted a child and when she went into the wish she was suddenly given a nuclear family life

#

Against her will

hollow dagger
#

I can understand people feeling like it's underwritten, sure, but actively harming the character's goals doesn't work because she doesn't have goals

dense nova
#

well yeah her getting a nuclear family life where she's a submissive housewife in the wish is explicitly framed as a bad thing done by a villain

#

her getting poppy as a daughter at the end isn't quite the same imo

hollow dagger
#

Mel breaks the conditioning and hates her housewife role

#

Belinda doesn't do that

floral folio
#

She was turned into a housewife with a child with a man who has shown no interest in each other as part of a creepy wish world

hollow dagger
#

Conrad remixed what was already there

#

Two people as companions

dense nova
#

yes, as a clearly bad thing the villain did that gets undone

hollow dagger
#

But then he makes it "acceptable"

floral folio
#

The ONLY bit towards Belinda being a mother is her decendant

hollow dagger
#

I think my feeling is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

prisma chasm
#

And we have the Doctor rudely scanning people without asking for permission again!

hollow dagger
#

15 doesn't have 11's sense of personhood and agency towards babies...

dense nova
#

i don't think it's wrong at all to dislike the forced motherhood trope on belinda, i'm not hot on it either, but i'm not entirely sure the ending of the episode where she's the single mother of poppy quite is against her will - that's very strong language and i'm not 100% sure it's supported by the text

floral folio
#

Like compare Belinda from song content with wish world. Those are two different characters

dense nova
#

yeah, her personality in wish world has been magically overwritten by conrad, same as mel and the doctor

hollow dagger
#

I mean, yes. Because production wise I don't think the writer on ISC actually knew who the companion was going to be

floral folio
#

Like compare Belinda having Poppy to Ruby getting Joe

#

Ruby is a founding, her story since episode 1 has been about babies and watching after them. She actively decided to watch over Joe of her own will

hollow dagger
#

And Belinda, when she has free will after Conrad's brainwashing has broken, continually and aggressively chooses poppy.

#

To the point of threatening the doctor

#

It's sudden, but it's an active choice

floral folio
#

Belinda never signed up to have Poppy. One day she was happy without a child next day she can only think about being a mother. AND when Poppy disappears she shows zero sorrow or despair or emptiness

#

Amy felt empty when Rory was gone from reality

#

Belinda is happy then happy with a child then happy then happy with a child

hollow dagger
#

I don't think consistency between collapsing reality/memory perseverance matters here between series

#

Not when the rules and stakes are clearly laid out for this circumstance by the doctor as "you will forget utterly", but then even after that, when the thread is pulled she still says that they have to try

#

I can agree Belinda is a blank slate regarding children up to this episode. But the actions she takes, when she has control of her own mind, are her choices.

#

Because otherwise the argument is that actions you take outside your own reality don't matter to your character, and that doesn't work when the doctor gives a speech saying the opposite

floral folio
#

They even say in the episode that Conrad tried to give everyone a family

#

And she was forced to play housewife against her will in the wish world

hollow dagger
#

And I'm not saying that he didn't. What I'm saying is that what matters is when she makes choices afterwards.

#

But also now thinking about that, it is almost funnier that Kate ended up with less of a relationship in the wish world

dense nova
#

so i think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here - kestrel you're saying that it's bad for belinda to have gotten poppy in the first place in wish world, which yeah forcing a child onto somebody is a morally bad thing for a person to do, but it's being done by a villain and is not framed as a good thing, so while forced motherhood is an annoying trope, i don't think it's a moral failing of the episode to do it here (tho being annoyed and/or upset by it is totally fine)

whereas corallis, you seem to be arguing that belinda wanting and keeping poppy after wish world is framed as a thing she wants and pursues, so it kinda reads like you're both talking past each other a bit

hollow dagger
#

Her authorising Ruby punching Conrad feels almost cathartic in that light

#

I maintain that Conrad couldn't have created Poppy out of nothing, and we know the Doctor wished he was her dad, so there's likely something in Belinda's character to justify her being brought into the relationship too.

#

Which is way more nebulous, but I think the reactions later inform that.

floral folio
#

There is some weight with Poppy and the Doctor. The Doctor is sterile, has a grandchild but has stated last season he doesn't know anything about his child as well as making more time lords is a good thing

bitter oracle
#

I think that's where you're clashing with each other - it's really rather unclear if she was given that desire to keep Poppy, considering it persists in every version of the world except the one where Poppy didn't even exist.

floral folio
#

Having Poppy stay around but lose all link the doctor and instead be purely Belindas is...odd

hollow dagger
#

I don't think poppy exists at all if Belinda doesn't want her in some way, and if that wasn't the case, Belinda would have reacted like Mel in the post brainwashing sequence.

#

But that's a real horror story

#

And on that, the folding sequence was genuinely unsettling
The repetition, the music, letting the audience work it out by themselves - all awful.

bitter oracle
#

I do think that having Belinda want to keep Poppy at all is a mis-step in the writing because of how dangerously close it gets to the idea that obviously it would be better for her to be a mother, in spite of that the story itself is decrying the villain for that same mentality.

#

But the story, as written, does seem to generally suggest her feelings towards Poppy outside of the Wish reality are still earnest.

floral folio
#

There's also the entire issue of Poppy being a real person outside the wish

#

Like they didn't make someone they copied someone

#

I dunno I just wish so badly that Belinda stated she wanted to be a mother because it would make the finale feel so much less unsettling

bitter oracle
#

Full agree, yeah

#

There's a lot of ways they could've written almost the same conclusion and had it sit less weirdly

#

I was personally hoping for Poppy to persist as the Doctor's child but not Belinda's, and close the loop on his previous suggestions that he doesn't have kids yet

floral folio
#

And having Belinda also being sterile despite having descendants would have been weird, interesting, AND A PARALLEL TO THE DOCTOR

hollow dagger
#

I think it depends entirely on whether you think Belinda saying something post mind control is "her" saying it

silk mica
#

I think at some point I’ll force myself to rewatch at least some of it because if I can accept the emotional stakes of the Doctor being upset about not being able to biologically reproduce, there is probably some good Sad Boy Doctor in there

hollow dagger
#

The moment where he accepts the Rani's invitation to free Omega is so interesting for that

#

Because even in all the awful context, what if it works

#

Gatwa does a great job of selling the little moments of compulsion

bitter oracle
#

Though of course that also eliminates the "reality is very slightly off" that's the catalyst for the regeneration, and I suspect a lot of the finale was working backwards from having to reach the regeneration so that wasn't really ever an option.

#

But I can dream :p

floral folio
#

She was amazing

#

And showed that she is very different than the master

#

Like straight up saying "let me win and I rebuild the time lords and earth goes back how it was"

#

Like the doctor only stood opposed because of Poppy

#

Like she straight up tried diplomacy twice and basically succeeded the 2nd time

hollow dagger
#

Yeah, and you can see the cogs turning where he's working out if he can get them back and then sneak out a way to stop Gallifrey being a Rani Supremacist science state

dense nova
#

he also didn't want a gallifrey built in the image of the rani (plus i guess he must know the plan is doomed because omega has been made of anti matter for ages

floral folio
#

The Rani straight up told him that if he wants them to end up different he needs to help her

#

And he basically sits and watches

#

The Rani was only undone by her own plan

hollow dagger
#

I do appreciate the idea that in spite of everything, she still can't actually understand the myths/magic of it all

#

She'll make use of it to get the wishing tech, but she can't extend the principle to Omega and his potential myths because he's a time lord and so clearly above it all

#

Brilliant petard hoisting

dense nova
#

i thought 15 figures the better play was to let the rani's plan play out so he could stop it afterwards rather than try to work out what she was doing and how to stop it (plus he needed to give ruby time to get through to conrad)

hollow dagger
#

The latter part I think was the "the" plan

#

But if The Rani's idea might work he should try and take advantage

prisma chasm
#

Part of him did want to see Omega (which I noted he pronounced two different ways) possibly come back, but not like that

hollow dagger
#

I did half expect him to point out that he'd already met Omega to the Rani

prisma chasm
#

Three/Four times! (depending on if you count the First Doctor meeting him)

modest badger
#

I'm very irritated that we're in a time where media needs to be consumed immediately or you risk spoilers, even from official sources.

BBC are spoilering Ncuti's leaving right now in social media posts, and you don't have to be following at all. The Algorithm does it.

opaque lake
#

Omega felt more like a god of death than the god of death we had....

floral folio
#

how many times has the doctor shattered reality?

neon nest
#

Alright go time

pure timber
#

I skipped Wish World last week cause I knew it'd be a classic RTD Finale Part 1 and I was right. Just watched it and it's Utter Nonsense.

#

The Rani declaring she and The Doctor "danced together at the Siege of Persephone" is one of those lines that rules harder than it has any right to but only because it can never be explained or portrayed. Peak Time War bullshit.

obtuse echo
#

I just binged everything from The Well to here, to avoid spoilers. I'm gonna need a minute.

pure timber
#

There's way too much shit happening in this story

#

The Ranis plan is convoluted and insane

#

Lot of nonsense about babies in this episode

bitter oracle
modern crane
#

I'm just mad that it would have made so much more sense for Ruby to have been the wishing child.
They could have kept the mystery going, then gone back to the church on Ruby Rd at the end of this episode and left the baby there.

pure timber
modern crane
#

It would have explained why Ruby remembered the real world

#

and the cloaked figure could have been the doctor

pure timber
#

God I love Jodie Whitaker so fucking much

#

Long live Thirteen

#

Right. Well. All of that was intensely insane.

neon nest
#

OH OK

pure timber
#

On one hand, I liked the episode. It's Way Too Busy. Too much shit happening. Less a Part 2 of 2 and more a Rushed Finale to a ~21 episode story that started way back in The Star Beast. And even then it is forced to leave shit by the wayside (poor Rogue)

#

On the other, the bulk of this episode revolves around reorienting reality to save the life of a Space Baby. RTDs ultimate joke at my expense

gleaming veldt
#

after a morning rewatch... this is a very incoherent and silly episode.
on par with season ending episodes really

neon nest
#

omega was real disappointing. The logic is there but like, just have it be like the robot from thor 1, just big scary dude. Sells it more in my mind.

#

I hope Ncuti enjoys the con circuit, I'm bummed for him that he didn't get a full dalek episode. I hope 16 does something interesting more than just a retread

#

Love that jodie got a moment. She got robbed on so many levels, but was a good doctor.

#

Also yeah pacing all over the pace

opaque lake
#

yeah, when Omega was gone and we had half an hour left I was expecting the classic 'we're still in the fake world' twist

#

has the show been renewed?

gleaming veldt
#

nothing official currently

#

of course "insider information" is rampant

neon nest
#

Extra mad he didn't get a dalek story, because he so clearly loves being the doctor

gleaming veldt
#

he asked for The Rani, and he got her

opaque lake
#

is he the only Doctor to not get a Dalek story aside from 8?

#

I feel like 8 shouldn't count in questions like that

gleaming veldt
#

War didn't get one, Fugitive didn't get one (televised on screen)

opaque lake
#

um.... War sure as heck did get a Dalek story

#

he got the time war

#

and I guess I should have clarified lead doctor

#

as in star of the show

gleaming veldt
#

your choice of goalposts, see? 8 had tons of Dalek stories in books, comics and audio

opaque lake
#

ok, fine. Is Doctor 15 the only Doctor to be the main Doctor on the television show Doctor Who that hasn't had a story about the Daleks aside from Number 8 who never had a proper season?

#

now I do realize after asking that that Doctor 14 hasn't

gleaming veldt
#

😄

opaque lake
#

so that's 8, 14, 15 are there any others?

#

this is not moving goalposts, I just thought that my question was clear enough especially given what it was in response to

gleaming veldt
#

not moving, defining them

opaque lake
#

I'm still working my way through classic episodes but I do know that 1, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 all have Dalek stories

#

do 2, 3, 5, or 6?

midnight laurel
#

1st doctor had four-ish, 2nd had two, 3rd had four, 4th had two, 5th had one, 6th had one

gleaming veldt
#

2 had Power of ~

opaque lake
#

so then it would just be 8, 14, 15

floral folio
#

15 didnt have a cyperman, weeping angel, or master story

gleaming veldt
#

most Doctors didn't have a Rani story 😄

#

or Meddling Monk

opaque lake
#

honestly in addition to 8 I also feel like 14 shouldn't really count for discussions like these either just because of how little time they got.

#

or at least just goes unsaid

prisma chasm
#

14 kinda did, the Davros sketch

opaque lake
#

oh right

#

ok, I know I said I was focusing on the main doctors but it's bugging me, how can you say that War Doctor didn't have a Dalek story?

prisma chasm
#

and technically this episode did have new footage of a Dalek in it, filmed for this episode, in Anita's flashback, so...

opaque lake
#

oh and if we're counting the Davros Sketch would Night of the Doctor count for 8?

#

you know, after whatever they do with Billie, they should have her regenerate into either Jo Martin or Paul McGann

gleaming veldt
#

War didn't really have more "story" than Fugitive on screen - the anniversary was a 10-11 story with him bumping around

opaque lake
#

I don't agree with that.

floral folio
#

I am going to really miss Ncuti as the doctor

opaque lake
#

yeah, he was great

#

I hope we see him for crossovers

#

I'm down for any of the doctors coming back, I like them all, but his energy would play off the others so well

#

too bad John Hurt passed can you imagine tired old War Doctor encountering 15?

gleaming veldt
#

https://youtu.be/SkiO4CTUa44
Jonathon Carley brings an incredible War Docor voice

YouTube
bigfinishprod
Doctor Who - The War Doctor Begins: He Who Fights With Monsters

FIND OUT MORE AT THE BIG FINISH WEBSITE: https://bgfn.sh/144

The young War Doctor is ordered to assassinate a rogue Time Lord in a three-part full-cast audio adventure, He Who Fights With Monsters, from Big Finish Productions.

Jonathon Carley returns as the 'secret' incarnation of the Doctor – originally played on screen by the late John Hur...

▶ Play video
opaque lake
#

man I wish there was a subscription plan or something for the audio dramas.

gleaming veldt
#

there are season packs you can buy in advance

#

and there are discounts weekly for older stuff - for example for no apparent reason:

image.png
#

there's more audio stuff that you can reasonably listen to, so you really have to pick and choose from them

pure timber
gleaming veldt
#

they started the sale just as the episode finished - they are part of the franchise

golden spire
#

I really enjoyed this ep
it feels like they tied in and finished up a lot of the things that have been going on but i do wish Belinda got to be more active in her own season

#

a lot of people seem rather grumpy that omega showed up just to be offed but i think it worked really well to showcase the rani's fundamental miscalculation of the situation, and also i was thankful to not have a whole episode focussed on omega and instead have it on character drama

neon nest
#

Also I really like the music for the rani, has a great tone to it

pure timber
#

I'm most grumpy that the reward for Belinda being a really fun companion is that she gets saddled with a baby.

#

Boooooo

golden spire
#

Also just thinking on it, that comment about the border shifting, isn't that where bad wolf bay is supposed to be D:

tight fjord
#

Ok, just watched

#

And while I think I broadly liked it, this was the Most Rusty Davies it could be

#

Also, did anyone else notice that Ruby's transmat backpack just...disappeared at some point after she teleported to the baby?

#

What worked: I think the regeneration worked well, even though I fundamentally didn't care about the whole poppy situation and do think it is a weird and large amount of screen time for kind of not a lot of payoff

#

I thought Omega being an Atropal worked well enough, much as I would have liked to see his big stupid hat. The Two Ranis joke was the perfect kind of niche joke. Belinda did feel kind of wasted in the episode.

#

Also, that flashback to the doctor saving belinda when she was seven...is that a thing that happened in an epiosde? Or just in this one

prisma chasm
#

Just straight up spoilers in thumbnail...

image.png
tight fjord
#

Billie as the doctor....I dunno, I like Billie, but this feels pretty self indulgent from Rusty.

#

I do like that Mel got to confront the Rani, given she is I think the only companion to previously encounter her?

#

Overall, it worked, I wish the post-wish part had been less than 30 minutes as it was mostly not very interesting - like, you know intantly he's going to bring poppy back, it felt like a lot of fucking around

#

oh and the callback to joy the star was weird because that whole thing was weird.

#

Loved bringing back Anita, A+ choice

gleaming veldt
#

pictured: Mel riding her scooter up UNIT building to arrive in time

proxy-image.png
prisma chasm
#

Billie... might be the Doctor? Her and RTD are being coy about who she is playing.

tight fjord
#

I mean...having watched the episode it seems pretty difficult to get around?

prisma chasm
#

One Hand Wave I can immidaitely give is that she is just popping in as The Moment and will give way to the actual Doctor later.

gleaming veldt
#

it's about the credits not explicitly saying "and introducing Billie Piper as The Doctor"

golden spire
#

that feel when you are trying to ride your scooter up the unit HQ but the top half of the building suddenly rotates in a way you never anticipated

prisma chasm
#

But no matter what, we aren't seeing anyting before next year (if not the next)

golden spire
#

yeah the Billie situation seems like a couple of specials kinda deal followed by the next doctor (the fugitive doctor of course)

prisma chasm
#

No, Jackson Lake is the Next Doctor chewie

gleaming veldt
#

leaked image from The Three Doctors #2:
(I love how the fandom are just going silly)

image.png
#

LatAm and French dub credits:

ty8c6i0vy64f1.png oyn9jh0vy64f1.png
#

and now we wait a year ... or two. or who knows.
Until then we'll have TWBTLATS (or Twiblats for easy pronounciation)

prisma chasm
#

I was kinda expecting a small tease for that at the end of this episode. Just a shot of a beach with something rising out of the water...

golden spire
#

yeah no teaser for it is a really curious choice
it feels like something only invested watchers know about

prisma chasm
#

although it is a spin off, so too tangential?

gleaming veldt
#

they threw the trailer on YT right after

prisma chasm
#

got a link?

gleaming veldt
#

#doctor-who message

prisma chasm
#

Cheers! (And the BBC are cowards for not having Billie immediately doing the Call to Subscribe! 😉 )

gleaming veldt
#

we'll have that soon in a video I think

#

also shoutout to Steffan Powell and the Unleashed folk, they did a wonderful job through these two seasons

#

and the welsh "Click below"

image.png
pure timber
#

for posterity:

One: died of old age
Two: fucked around and found out
Fugitive: [X-Files sound effect]
Three: died of massive radiation poisoning
Four: fell off a big tower
Five: got poisoned by unrefined space immortality drugs
Six: bonked his head on the TARDIS while under attack by the Rani
Seven: got shot in Chinatown and died on an operating table in San Francisco due to Massive Medical Malpractice
Eight: died of angst
War: died of old age
Nine: died of massive radiation poisoning
Ten: first shot by a Dalek, stuck around due to vanity issues, but then later died of massive radiation poisoning
Eleven: died of old age and Air Guitar
Twelve: shot by Cybermen and also exploded
Thirteen: shot by a big laser from a space jellyfish
Fourteen: shot by a big laser but was too traumatized and biologically defied the rules of spacetime to stick around anyway to work through some shit
Fifteen: fucked Time so hard he died of the strain

prisma chasm
#

Eight: died of angst - really?
War: died of old age - Punished for living, really.

pure timber
#

you watch "Night of the Doctor" and tell me im wrong lol

neon nest
#

Surprising amount of radiation related deaths there

gleaming veldt
#

even more if you count laser as radiation 🙂

floral folio
#

One thing I also really liked from the episode was explaining why the Rani didn't know about the time hotel

#

Like yes she has a plan for everything but she wanted to take christmas off its not her fault the doctor spent it making connections with a magic hotel 🤣

prisma chasm
#

they didn't really explain the fourth wall breaks. They reference it, but... ??

gleaming veldt
#

nor Susan, nor bigeneration, nor ...
it's a mess, but it's not that bad of a mess

silk mica
#

I think what I have learned is that I am not a shock regeneration person

#

I simply do not like it 😅

ripe timber
#

They kind of explained bigeneration as a weird last ditch attempt by the Time Lord DNA to keep the race going

#

Susan didn't come back though. Not sure if they're coming back to that at some point

prisma chasm
#

At one point, it was nearly Doctor -> Poppy -> Susan, but they got rid of that idea

ripe timber
#

Yeah, that would be weird timewise

prisma chasm
#

eh, the Doctor last season said he didn't have a granddaughter yet

dense nova
#

4 falling off of a big tower is correct but I prefer to say he died under the crushing weight of being the most interesting mab in the universe

modest badger
#

This thread is very busy, so sorry if someone's already suggested this.

One in-universe reason why The Next Doctor looks the way she does is that the previous Doctor shot energy into the TARDIS core/Time Vortex. And one occasion one person was intimate with that was Rose Tyler. So maybe it is Bad Wolf related.

tight fjord
#

Also this isn't even the first new timelord born in this run

#

Both Jenny and River for instance

dense nova
#

i think it was specifically the gene bomb in the timeless children that made them sterile

#

also jenny was made by a machine and river song is a human empowered by exposure to the time vortex rather than a gallifreyan

modest badger
#

What if Bad Wolf is a God, the True God of Time. And Plot is why they've possibly hijacked the Doctor?

gleaming veldt
#

13 met Time during Flux

modest badger
#

And Time's form was whatever it wanted.

#

And maybe "Bad Wolf" is aspect it creates and inhabits when it walks the physical universe.

pure timber
#

I've always held this idea that the entity known as The Bad Wolf isn't really a representation of time, it's a manifestation of Time In Chaos. Not a Guardian of Time and not its End, it is an Avatar that sort of revolves around The Doctor and his attempts to rewrite history and reality itself. Hell, The Moment doesn't really Manifest as The Bad Wolf it more temporarily becomes The Bad Wolf for the time it has to exist

#

Like, if The Doctor is a hermit and the TARDIS is a cabin in the woods, every so often The Bad Wolf appears outside and portends The Doctor having to make some horrible clamatious decision that will determine what kind of storm will hit him

#

Like, Rose herself isn't really The Bad Wolf. She's just Rose Tyler. The Bad Wolf wears Rose's face but only because at the moment it was incepted into reality as a concept Roae happened to be its conduit

#

I've always loved that outside of all of the Zygon Nonsense in "The Day of The Doctor", the story of that episode is actually about an Old Man in a barn in the desert having a conversation with "The Big Bad Wolf" about a terrible decision he may have to make. Classic Fairy Tale Moffat Logic.

gleaming veldt
#

Making me wonder how recent the new face addition was - Ncuti didn't know back when filming

silk mica
#

that's the first I've rewatched a moment of it and it felt kind of nice? it was good to hear the people involved rationalise what was a massive shock yesterday

#

I'm really looking forward to Land Between, love a sea devil

slate osprey
neon nest
#

I get why, but yes poppy being ostensibly a prop this episode was a touch frustrating. I accept the continuity but having a slightly older kid actor (has its own issues I'm sure) would have let her do something other than sit and be there.

shrewd pilot
opaque lake
#

per discussion from last night, found this on twitter

GsTihEPWIAA6vOs.png
silk mica
#

Wow I actually didn’t notice that about Pertwee and Cybermen

dense nova
#

Which is a shame, his voice would be great for saying "cybermen"

silk mica
#

Heck yeah

bitter oracle
#

unsurprisingly his doctor does get to meet them in audios, albeit not played by him

#

surprisingly it took all the way until 2007 for it to actually happen (Companion Chronicles story "The Blue Tooth")

silk mica
#

The Blue… Tooth

#

A bunch of Cybermen

#

Couldn’t possibly guess the plot of that one 😂

dense nova
#

if i got to pitch a cybermen story, i'd like to see humans inventing them as part of a future war against the silurians

#

and also frobisher is there

lone cloud
#

I'm honestly a little impressed there hasn't been at least one absolute nutbar who's looked at the history of Cybermen on Earth and went "Oooooh, we should make these and sell them as weaposn to the military."

dense nova
#

villengard origin story maybe?

lone cloud
#

I did consider it being a contemporary branch of Villengard yeah

oak cairn
#

Wait I’m so confused…Rose is 16?

dense nova
#

good question

#

next question

#

(officially there is no word on who billie piper is playing, and the framing of the shot is just ambiguous enough to pull a gotcha and say she's not the doctor)

pure timber
#

i dont think its ambiguous at all personally, and the idea that it is seems to stem entirely from the fact that she is not immediately credited as The Doctor

dense nova
#

i also think she is 16, but that russell intentionally gave just enough wiggle room to make doctor who conversations keep going on comment sections and social media

dark crest
#

I only just remembered, but the Billie Piper thing actually got leaked a while ago, its just that nobody believed it

pure timber
#

yeah because its fucking insane

dense nova
#

like when pirate yakuza in hawaii leaked months in advance but everyone assumed it was a joke

modest badger
#

It's probably forced watercooler convo starters, which does seem to be trend for this era of Doctor Who. Which is slightly irritating me because I don't like people telling me what to do.

#

It might be why Poppy annoyed me in the finale since the story was telling me to be emotionally invested in the baby before I even had a chance to choose to be.

pure timber
#

RTD: "CARE ABOUT THIS BABY"
Me: N O

bitter oracle
#

I do think in all likelihood she will be number 16, but they've avoided saying it in enough ways that it doesn't feel like they could all be slip-ups

#

so it seems like they want it to be ambiguous, for whatever reason

#

(perhaps so that she either is or isn't the doctor depending on the exact circumstances of the next season getting commissioned)

lone cloud
#

They've both spent enough time around fans to know exactly what they're weakness is, and it's speculation. Doctor Who fans LOVE to speculate and theorize on things

bitter oracle
#

oh yeah, whether or not there's additional reasons, "we want fans to speculate" is definitely gonna be one of the reasons

dense nova
#

oh shit you guys what if she's playing the rani Kappa

tardy bone
#

My broad thoughts:

First half broadly worked, although I think omega would have been way better as a dude in a suit than... Whatever that was. Loved to see anita again

Second half lost me, I just failed to give a shit about poppy.

I was mad that gatwa regenerated in the first place, he was a fantastic doctor and he did not get nearly enough time to be so, and who he turned into just annoyed me (Doubly so because I was spoiled by a fucking news alert)

#

I'm hoping she's just around for a few specials again and we get a new actor for the doctor next season

floral folio
#

The first leg of the episode was really nice in general. Fun action, good villain, great visuals

#

But yeah that 2nd half is so weird

neon nest
#

Okay hear me out. Omega comes out the door and its elesh norn

modest badger
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I thought Omega looked like a zombie baby at first due to camera angle, and I thought that was a fun way to depict a God rebirthing into the world

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but no, just janky ass titanic zombie monster

dark crest
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I think it kinda works for what RTD is doing, but Im still disappointed by it because I love Omega from 3 Doctors and from the Big Finish story Omega

dense nova
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omega devolving further even as he grows more powerful, perhaps due to a sect revering or even worshipping him during the time war, would be a neat hook, but he's really just a name thrown out to make a cool cliffhanger

dark crest
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Yeah, even using the Stephen Thorne audio clip kinda went nowhere

modest badger
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I think it shows that New Who shouldn't feel like it has to stick to one/two episodes for a story. Let it spill out into what it needs.

white estuary
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The way I personally would reformat Doctor Who going forward is to expand it to ten episodes per season, but within that do four stories per year. Two three-parters, two two-parters. (Or one two-parter and two singles.)

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Get in four guest writers, a mixture of reliable old hands and new blood, and really let each story delve into its world and characters.

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The original pitch for Doctor Who in the 60s was a series of miniseries, and in this day and age the miniseries has returned to its former prominence, so do that again. Doctor Who was standalone episodes in 2005 because that was the dominant form. (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Stargate, Star Trek)

vestal remnant
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Whew, so I waited and watched the the last two episodes in one go, first of all - Holy Budget, Batman! The Wish World looked great.
They brought Anita back - amazing! (Although the " I saw two men dancing and because I had feelings for one of them I immediately run off to get myself a man and a child" is … eh?) They got Jodie back! Even more amazing! Billie Piper as the Doctor, for maybe at least one episode? Interesting choice, I'm not mad about it.
But … the Poppy stuff is just a mess. I would understand it if we were getting the Doctor a daughter, just so we could explain how it is possible for him to have a granddaughter, who've brought back this season. But in the end we just got Belinda a kid, and we retconned it in the actual episode so that she' would've had the kid this whole time. And I'm like what? Why do I care? More importantly who do I want this to be the culmination of Belinda's story? That's not a meaningful thing for the Doctor to sacrifice himself over.
Also we've gotten into the trouble of weaving Mrs. Flood into the story only for the resolution to be "big villain gets eaten by a bigger villain", and then said bigger villain gets defeated within two minutes of it appearing. I'm not sure the stuff with Sutekh was enough of a payoff, this certainly wasn't.
And this is the end of Ncuti's run, I don't know, maybe I'll like it better on rewatch but as a finale this didn't stick the landing for me.

obtuse echo
opaque lake
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The format discussion for Dr Who has been coming up a lot lately and.... I think that after 20 years of new who we have to just accept that the old format of back to back miniseries is just not happening anymore

dense nova
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it is also nice to have an episodic monster of the week show still

tight fjord
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I'm still on team "don't force a structure" but also team "don't be afraid to change structure"

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Some stories are just not two or three episodes worth. Some are

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I think on consideration overall much as I like Ncuti in the abstract, neither of his seasons is good

dense nova
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i think they're mostly good, with some rough edges and lacking a sense of real cohesion

opaque lake
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I will agree we need more episodes

opaque lake
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we just had an episode with a toaster that tells the future

opaque lake
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actually the discussion on Dr Who structure is reminding me of the discussion around MTG set/block structure....

bitter oracle
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I do agree that it's unlikely to change, but I think there's a lot going for a change, so i'd still like to hope

silk mica
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I generally enjoy lots of single episode stories but I can see how that would really help with the budget

gleaming veldt
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I always loved that it can work as an anthology - short, fairly independent stories, where you can go from one to another without "having to" read / listen / watch through countless hours of others.

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it's just stories told around the campfire, remembering what happened, maybe true, maybe not

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(remember Tales of the TARDIS?)

opaque lake
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we have had 2 part stories in new who that aren't finales before

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the almost people and the doctor dances come to mind

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and we did have The Flux

ripe timber
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I would rather not have more of The Flux

hollow dagger
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The entirety of season 9 is two parters iirc

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Which was the whole gimmick

silk mica
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I basically just want to watch Scooby Doo as an adult 😅
But yeah I’m perfectly happy with the occasional 2-partner in a long season (ie 13 eps)

gleaming veldt
midnight laurel
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wow, real bone!

ripe timber
pine grotto
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I love how much Lawrence Miles screamed Steven Moffat ripped him off for having written a story set in a library, same as he did in a spec script he posted online six months after Moffat’s story would have been filmed. Meanwhile… Russell just did Faction Paradox down to the bone cathedrals in the sky, and it hasn’t even registered with anyone, there are so many other things going on in Reality War.

obtuse echo
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The bone beasts were cool.

near warren
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So, I have a theory that the Rose as the Doctor thing is actually really that Ncuti's doctor has is somehow morphed into Interface for the weapon the fron The Day if the Doctor.

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Has anybody been talking about that? Haven't seen anything

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They killed off both "new" bi-generation Time Lords. That leaves technically one Doctor (Tennant) and one Rani.

prisma chasm
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you mean The Moment? I've thought that, but most people seem to be thinking she is Bad Wolf / Rose + Time Votrex Energy

opaque lake
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my sister is messaging me on facebook right now as she watches, can't wait for her to get to the end

prisma chasm
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I want this to be a Bad Wolf / Moment that just shatters the Fourth Wall, talks to the audience, talks about the Doctor, and then just does a clip show before releaving who the Doctor actually regenerated into.

opaque lake
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we got there

image.png
bitter oracle
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(from 2022!)

opaque lake
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bring him back as 17.

neon nest
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Honestly I hope 16 is disconnected from rose entirely. Just the look, maybe an offhand line, but its just a new doctor

ripe timber
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The Doctor has regenerated to look like people they’ve met before, like how they made a brief thing about the 13th Doctor thinking he looked familiar before realising he looked like Caecilius. It’s because they were both played by Capaldi but it’s nice to know it’s a thing they will acknowledge and make a reason for

opaque lake
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yeah, the 12th doctor into Caecilius and the 14th doctor into the Metacrisis guy Rose hooked up with.

pine grotto
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And 6, into a guy who shot 5 once.

white estuary
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And Romana into a princess they met once.

pine grotto
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Wait, why did Ruby have the power to make it snow again? I feel like this was the point we were supposed to get the least bit of answer on that. Was it because of how her birth mother was secretly such an ordinary person it baffled the gods themselves?

pure timber
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It's so funny that that was never explained

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Maestro got beat because Ruby had some Secret Amazing Magic in her

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And we just never learn what it is

modest badger
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I'm going to fancanon that it was The Trickster deciding to prank the other Pantheon.

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Imagine The Chaos of The God of Death Dying.

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Maestro being defeated by a pop group.

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Lux disappating to Light

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A God of Wishes having its power used to remove Wishes from reality.

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Omega being Booped back into the Underverse.

dense nova
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It's kingdom hearts logic, it makes emotional sense but not logical sense

opaque lake
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it all makes just as much sense as all other doctor who

gleaming veldt
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We also have "The Boss" to blame everything on

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Starting with the Star Beast until the final goodbye from Anita

opaque lake
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Boss is a synonym to Master....

golden spire
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For my read, it was a confluence of coincidence and consequence of the goblins, the doctor, sutekh, ruby, UNIT, all trying to tamper with and probe a fixed point only made important by everyones efforts

pine grotto
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He’s had priors for this sort of thing. We really never had any explanation for what Bad Wolf was or why any of that happened beyond “Rose looked at something glowy for a bit.” Which leads to the name and the graffiti and a bay and…

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BOSS is also a preexisting Dr Who villain as well.

pure timber
opaque lake
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Bad Wolf was Rose getting godlike powers and then making a bootstrap paradox

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she literally says 'I create myself'

pine grotto
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And then serving on various planning committees for Welsh power plants and WWII German bomb designs throwing in name suggestions for things?

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Why not just leave a note, why a bizarre graffiti campaign?

golden spire
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because a bizare graffity campaign was what she had experienced

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hence the bootstrap

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there is no beginning, just the loop

pine grotto
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But it continues after.

bitter oracle
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I mean, the graffiti stuff I figure some kids with spray paint just decided to get in on this trend they'd noticed

gleaming veldt
golden spire
pine grotto
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After the loop Bad Wolf keeps announcing Rose’s return in Turn Left and renames the Scandinavian fjord. Once the bootstrap paradox is resolved Bad Wolf keeps.. making decisions to do things for “Reasons” beyond self creation.

golden spire
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at other times of crisis for Rose and the Doctor, like what the original messages were trying to warn about