sk-discussion

[nimble radish]

and they have special feets

[burnt topaz]

theres not many ways you can fuck up helping others i guess

[silver oak]

well, #hk-art-gallery is good as well

[modest night]

Cant believe tess can get summoned by just saying the word physics

Hi tess

[silver oak]

physics, physics, physics!

[burnt topaz]

#sk-discussion stands for phySicS discussion, now stay forever

[cerulean sable]

i just want

more large ass background

[silver oak]

yes

[burnt topaz]

my favourite one is the one in the first trailer of her just walking, hold on this is an awful description

[wanton crest]

All i want for Christmas is more large ass background

[silver oak]

I'm excited for lots of big rooms in SS

[elfin swift]

inhales so deeply every lit flame within a 2 mile radius is extinguished 'lore' discussion in video games skews heavily towards completely nonsensical and meaningless discussion of plot events and explanations for plot events in the vein of assembling information as though to fill out a wookiepedia article, in the same vein of ready player one just rattling off a list of popular 80s pop culture references as though for bragging points or recognition. because of the fixation on 'explaining' plot, the actual emotional and thematic experience of the game and its story, atmosphere, and construction gets almost completely neglected

[modest night]

All i want for christmas is silksong

[burnt topaz]

this one

[coarse leaf]

Cool
Let’s talk about the cluster decomposition theorem

[burnt topaz]

haha the what

[elfin swift]

physics is for nerds what about theoretical pure mathematics

[narrow lava]

any news

[modest night]

Yeah i agree alex lore is stupid everybody should make their own story even if its "wrong"

[burnt topaz]

also those little moss mother babies are adorable

[wanton crest]

Yeah kinda but not really

[coarse leaf]

Dichotomy of the chat

[coarse leaf]

The mathematicians are scary

[modest night]

Listen i caught the seasonal ss depression

[elfin swift]

emily noether was on secret mathematician juice that we all couldn't even imagine

[wanton crest]

Highly contagious

[modest night]

Yeah i got it from this chat

[narrow lava]

hang in there, in the near future there will be news, and by near I mean maybe next year

[wanton crest]

[silver oak]

I haven't had it for a few months

[coarse leaf]

And she came up with a very important physics

[cerulean sable]

i honestly feel PROBABLY at least maybe hypothetically hoping the background for this will be redone to something like this

[coarse leaf]

Noether’s theorem is important

[cerulean sable]

like a "WOW THIS GAME IS FUCKING MAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVVVVVVVVVVVE" and shit when you first see the BG

[narrow lava]

its called path finder, but I already see a path, did I win?

[nimble radish]

put it in lore htis is silksong discusion

[coarse leaf]

Silksong is just one room

[silver oak]

yeah that's an old clip, the black space will almost definitely have something in it

[burnt topaz]

the idea of walking along a 2d space with the background being so endles is so cool and makes me feel so small and adventurous

[wanton crest]

I usually watch mossbag's "where is silksong" video 3-4 times and then im cured

[coarse leaf]

it's just anoether theorem though

[silver oak]

nice

[marsh ibex]

ok

[nimble radish]

enough of theorems when are they going to start proving stuff

[marsh ibex]

doesn’t mean I can’t find enjoyment in that anyways

[coarse leaf]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem

[modest night]

Smh joker

[elfin swift]

yeah noether's theorem is fucking bonkers

[heady iron]

noether? like from minecraft?

[modest night]

Ah its big brain talk moment

[cerulean sable]

heres a theorem for you

If i stab you multiple times
There is a high probability that you will most likely die

To test this theory i will need a volunteer

[modest night]

Time to peace out

[wanton crest]

I like your funny words magic man

[nimble radish]

hey I know someone

[modest night]

Me

[silver oak]

I also volunteer sonia

[elfin swift]

like you know conservation of energy right? emily noether figured out a theorem that proves there's a law of conservation of basically any force in any physical system

[nimble radish]

sonia is a statistical outlier

we need an average person

[cerulean sable]

😳

[wanton crest]

And what's so poggers about it

[nimble radish]

conservation of energy is just a limit put on us by the devs

[serene chasm]

why are we stabbing sonia?

[burnt topaz]

science

[wanton crest]

N shit

[nimble radish]

we aren't stabbing sonia, that would be a bad sample size
we're stabbing ss discussion

[wanton crest]

Quite the complex procedure

[brazen needle]

when was the last news from tc? edge?

[coarse leaf]

yh

[nimble radish]

yesterday we got news

[coarse leaf]

dreams don't count

[wanton crest]

Depends what you consider news

[nimble radish]

I didn't dream that, my dream was way crazier

[burnt topaz]

what news was it

[nimble radish]

they released the release date for the release date for the release window

[wanton crest]

Omg leak

[burnt topaz]

omg, i gotta write it on my calendar

[serene chasm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7J7UjsRqg

[coarse leaf]

tldr sonia is a monkey

[burnt topaz]

i kinda wish i didnt know the onion was satire whenever i see their stuff because i feel it would be a little funnier

[shell yacht]

peak SSDisc content, the fucking onion

[wanton crest]

Yeah busy day isn't it?

[elfin swift]

genuinely can't tell if this is a joke or not did we actually get news yesterday

[coarse leaf]

no

[serene chasm]

is #hk-announcements lit up?

[coarse leaf]

sonetimes i mark it unread, so when i return i get to think for a brief moment that we got news

[wheat sail]

even if it is lit up

[burnt topaz]

hk update 1.5.564..456.242.3412

[wheat sail]

Probably hid the date as a secret in HK

[fossil pewter]

So did the devs/CM/testers ever post anything on this server or was it on another one?

[wheat sail]

graig is a tester but only trolls

[burnt topaz]

i can imagine TC maniaclly laughing behind their keyboards "heheheh theyre never gonna find this one"

[fossil pewter]

Understandable

[cerulean sable]

TC's end game is to create mutated killer beetles

[wheat sail]

If I was in TC i'd leak it for all of you DW

[dusk badger]

where did that come from

[cerulean sable]

I really think we can weaponize giant train sized centipedes

[burnt topaz]

oh for sure

[cerulean sable]

theyll be like armored trains from WW1 with all sorts of guns attached to them

but without the need of a rail system

[charred pulsar]

Want it to be?

[nimble radish]

please simo

[wheat sail]

🙏

[hollow terrace]

HOPING

[burnt topaz]

that would be pretty funny, i think

[nimble radish]

do it, execute order 66

[dusk badger]

simo in hk-announcements
what will they type

[wheat sail]

Wait for it..

[nimble radish]

simo, I'll give you server admin if you dew it

[burnt topaz]

thats an offer you cant refuse

[dusk badger]

anyway giant weaponized centipedes sound great unless the enemy invents a giant bird

[burnt topaz]

theyre called planes

[dusk badger]

planes aren't real

[nimble radish]

I wish
we did call them that

[burnt topaz]

oh yeah thats true, they were made up in Planes (2013)

[dusk badger]

i think the first use of planes in fiction was in a cult classic Snakes on a Plane (2006)

[wheat sail]

waiting for simo to put up that release date

[burnt topaz]

oh yeah, thats my favourite from the plane cinematic universe

[serene chasm]

Do it. Embrace the chaos

[feral falcon]

For some reason my page down key on the keyboard doesn't work, and now it repeats the letters "N, B, and ;", does someone know how can I fix this? (yes, I know that I'm saying this in SS discussions)

[spare kite]

you unbreak it

[versed pollen]

Announce that someone beat one of the hardest Celeste maps ever today

[feral falcon]

Huh, actually, that makes sense, thanks kind stranger!

[burnt topaz]

oh which one?

[versed pollen]

D1D7

[sage glade]

modded map?

[versed pollen]

7D1D but backwards. 7D1D being a super buffed 7D but you only have one dash. 7D being a super hard version of summit

[heady jolt]

jojo joining hollowcord arc when

[versed pollen]

Holy shit pogseal you can advocate with me

[heady jolt]

yes

[versed pollen]

Praise be to put D1D7 victory in #hk-announcements

[burnt topaz]

damn, 7d1d also looked pretty hard, didnt know there was a backwards version

[heady jolt]

2k 3 is the hardest room to ever be cleared by a human in celeste

the fact that it was done after months shows how difficult beating it is and why we should all celebrate

[coarse leaf]

Whoa

[heady jolt]

amongke

[versed pollen]

No stop

[true vine]

surgery is just stabbing someone to life

[tranquil igloo]

Well that wish didn't come true

[alpine folio]

Wasnt there a videogame magazine called a profound waste of time that was going to have some hollow knight/silksong info?what happened? Did that ever come out? Did I just hallucinate it?

[split tide]

depends on where you stab them probably

[feral falcon]

celebrating birthdays is basically celebrating a person getting closer to death

[marsh ibex]

it never was supposed to have any info

it was a dev interview and the interviewers and ees said there’d be nothing

[primal oriole]

they can afford croissants now

[true vine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARUePNnxkA4
case in point

[primal oriole]

that's the relevant new informatiom

[tranquil igloo]

the cheese has a anatomy

[alpine folio]

Did it come out already?

[marsh ibex]

a while ago

[true vine]

quite a while ago

[feral falcon]

I have anatomy

I think...

[true vine]

it's the best birthday song

[feral falcon]

Indeed

[alpine folio]

Uhh ok ty for the info

[radiant wraith]

Ok hear me out:

[tranquil igloo]

No

[burnt topaz]

nah

[radiant wraith]

Cats in Silksong

[tranquil igloo]

No

[burnt topaz]

actually screw that you have my attention

[radiant wraith]

Ah so you were listening

[tranquil igloo]

No

[high hedge]

Would the cats be very big

[radiant wraith]

How did you...

[burnt topaz]

tiny catboy sherma

[true vine]

why is he b a l d

[radiant wraith]

Yes, Hornet can pet a Wyrm sized cat

[burnt topaz]

because the cat ears didnt work with the hat, ok?

[true vine]

you could have at least put furry hair lol

[burnt topaz]

i really did try to make them work but it always looked weird

[radiant wraith]

Wyrm sized cat is the true final boss

[burnt topaz]

thats actually not too bad of an idea

[true vine]

wyrms are probably the size of snakes

[radiant wraith]

That's because they are snakes lore wise

[burnt topaz]

theyre still pretty small snakes id imagine

[radiant wraith]

"Wyrms are snakes" -Borm

[feral falcon]

Wyrms are Wyrms

[radiant wraith]

Borm says they are snakes

[mental jacinth]

I had a dream last night that silksong was real but there were lots of spikes and hornet died

[feral falcon]

Borm is a Wyrm, don't believe them (I don't know who is Borm)

[radiant wraith]

Borm is the NPC that is a bug

And talks in Hallownest language

Borm

[feral falcon]

Oooohh, I think I remember, he is close to that area, where it's underground, right?

[burnt topaz]

who the fuck is borm

[radiant wraith]

Yes, him

[feral falcon]

He's an NPC found in the Underground, he is also a bug

[burnt topaz]

oh of course, i know him -_-

[radiant wraith]

The Knight can talk to him

[feral falcon]

and he says some stuff

[burnt topaz]

its too late for this im going to bed

[feral falcon]

goodnight

[radiant wraith]

Goodnight, think about Borm

[burnt topaz]

ill have sweet dreams of him

[radiant wraith]

Borm

[feral falcon]

I still don't know how to fix my page down key, oh well, I'm going to watch some funny videos

[radiant wraith]

[gilded adder]

my Silk friends

[feral falcon]

SHAWty is like a melody

[gilded adder]

No

9 more days until the division becomes no more...

[feral falcon]

I don't know why I still have this in my nickname, I have no hopes for december anymore

[radiant wraith]

No way! New Year is in 9 days too!

[gilded adder]

Sad

[feral falcon]

Now it's just Jobiel12...

[radiant wraith]

It's enough

[gilded adder]

Do servers have to allow you to change your nickname in the settings?

[feral falcon]

no

[gilded adder]

Trying to change my name in a server I'm in but it's telling me I need nitro to do so.

[fiery coral]

...huh

You only need Nitro to edit the server PFP I think

[feral falcon]

I don't have nitro, and I managed to change, hmm...

[fiery coral]

Nickname changes are as usual

[true vine]

try /nick?

[hollow terrace]

P2w nicknames

[gilded adder]

I can change it in other servers but in this particular server I can't for some reason.

Time for a new nickname.

[sage glade]

yeah

[gilded adder]

I see. That would explain it.

[sage glade]

idk what the deal with nitro is about tho. if it's off, nitro shouldn't be able to just bypass it

[gilded adder]

You need nitro to have server specific pfps and such.

[sage glade]

yeah pfps

[gilded adder]

KEKWait

Love this emote

[sage glade]

[gilded adder]

Silksong gonna be so epic

[serene chasm]

It will be very good

[low jasper]

Hell ye

[serene chasm]

I dont want to overhype myself, but I truly expect great things from it.

[low jasper]

Me too
I'm expecting it to be as good as Hollow Knight, and that's how high I'm keeping my hype for the time being given what we have

[sage glade]

silksong gonna be a game for sure

[gilded adder]

Silksong gonna be for sure

[serene chasm]

HK is an amazing game, and that was their first game. SS has HK knowledge, and more money/time behind it.

To quote Graig
"HK was a rushed game made on a shoestring budget. You have no idea how much better SS is"

[low jasper]

Yep
I can't wait to see how it looks when it's finished. I understand the wait is hell but hey, I'm sure it'll be worth it

[tawdry palm]

on god?

[chilly nexus]

Imagine the world where silksong isn't... oof

[gilded adder]

On god.

[feral falcon]

Oh? Fr? On God? Just like that?

[radiant wraith]

Silksong will be the game of all time

[feral falcon]

Silksong is a game

[craggy turtle]

False

[radiant wraith]

Not yet not yet

[craggy turtle]

It can't be something if it doesn't exist

[tawdry palm]

jesus this joke cant die can it

[feral falcon]

no, it is enchanted with protection IV

[radiant wraith]

Can't wait to watch Silksong at the theater with my friends

[craggy turtle]

Silksong is gone. It was just a dream, a ghost you might say, and I dreamnailed it

[radiant wraith]

Lies

[craggy turtle]

It's more gone than Marissa and Myla

[feral falcon]

Yooo, I'm hyped for Silksong because It will expand the Marvel Cinematic Universe

[radiant wraith]

True! Can't wait for Thor to fight Grimm

[craggy turtle]

Thanus theory except it's void tendrils

[feral falcon]

I heard Hornet is going to appear in Spider-Man: Return to Home

[radiant wraith]

She does appear

She is Spiderman from bug universe

[feral falcon]

Oh my God, the Void is actually a bunch of Symbiotes, and Venom is actually a Void Being

[radiant wraith]

Yes

That's why Hornet is in the movie

[feral falcon]

I heard The Pale King is going to revive in the next Avengers Movie, and that Radiance will be the next "Thanos"

[radiant wraith]

Cool! I guess Ant Man will have to use the dream nail

[craggy turtle]

'Reality can be anything I want'

Who will we dreamnail to fight rad?

[radiant wraith]

Elderbug

[craggy turtle]

first. we must get the dream nail. then we must beat all five dream bosses to get all five infinity essences to get awoken dream nail.

[feral falcon]

I heard from a Leak that Peter Parker will wield the DreamNail in the next avengers movie

[radiant wraith]

Battery dead

[feral falcon]

Goodbye

[craggy turtle]

Spider-Man: Far From Hallownest

[radiant wraith]

Bye

[visual storm]

it should be Hornet: Far from hallownest

[vagrant umbra]

Hello Hornet -Everyone in 2024

[lone elbow]

Today I learned that Leth is the voice of Lemm

[surreal crown]

What do I do with this information?

[serene chasm]

Lemm and the Nailsmith

[little moss]

🎶 All I want for Christmas is Silk Song 🎶

[serene chasm]

Wish granted. You will get Silksong for Christmas... 2022

[heady jolt]

someone made a silksong version of the christmas just a week away meme

we all wish lmao

[brazen needle]

what day was edge again?

[warm bone]

depends on where you live

like here it was the 31st of dec, but some people say it was jan 1st

[serene chasm]

It came out around noon in England (Thats where the magazine is based) on Dec 31

[heady jolt]

edge is bri'ish moment

[hollow sedge]

still a week plus left

[polar marsh]

Till what

[hollow sedge]

till the year ends

[serene chasm]

Till 2022 and the official year of no news

[little moss]

Until Silk Song release obviously

[marble marsh]

if hollow knight has 112% what percentage do you think silksong will have

[polar marsh]

112

[marble marsh]

if silksong is bigger than hk it atleast needs 113%

[ocean mulch]

[polar marsh]

I’ve gone a couple months clean of looking up “silksong” on YouTube every couple hours but I’ve started again (there’s been nothing new)

[stoic path]

When do you guys think is a realistic estimated release date for Silksong?

[umbral schooner]

Vote: Do you think silksong is going to be released of feb 1st like the leak said

[marble marsh]

that was sadly just a placeholder date

[stoic path]

I think it'd be mid/late 2022

[warm bone]

people never learn

[marble marsh]

I think mid 2022 is the most plausible

[stoic path]

Yeah

[marble marsh]

given what graig said about the game being complete but theyre just adding more

[stoic path]

I'd say around June 2022

[warm bone]

you trust graig

that's a mistake

[marble marsh]

yea and also if they release it the start of summer that would mean more sales

[stoic path]

Never trust Graig, no matter how truthful he sounds

[marble marsh]

no I dont fully trust graig

[hearty tendon]

I fully trust graig

[marble marsh]

dont fully trust graig that is a bad idea

[glossy jackal]

graig cannot be trusted

if he says something it's likely the oppossite

[hearty tendon]

If graig told me to delete my save file i will

Those who sway on graig word may god have mercy

[glossy jackal]

graig isn't even a TC employee

He's just an intern who brought cupcakes

[hearty tendon]

Then he is the messenger

[tawdry valley]

Wow. Very controversial statement. Who knew

If you take anything graig has said seriously and then believe you were intentionally tricked, you deserve to be tricked

Besides:

[hearty tendon]

It is the pascal wager

[tawdry valley]

Graig could tell some of y’all a why did the chicken cross the road joke and you would try and find the date chickens were invented or some shit to get another “release date leak” to mark on the calendar

[hearty tendon]

He have such way with words

[polar marsh]

I Have faith but I know it won’t

[marble marsh]

well he is clearly joking in a lot of them

[marble marsh]

its more likely for it to be released in some other date in february bc im pretty sure that was just a placeholder date. Personally I think its either going to be mid-late 2022.

[polar marsh]

I think late 2022

To be fair it’s only been in development for 2 and a half years

[marble marsh]

either like june or december

[polar marsh]

Games take a hell of a lot of time

[tawdry valley]

February 1st. A Tuesday, a date definitely not a placeholder logged by a Nvidia employee on the basis of a vague timeframe for release or no release at all

[polar marsh]

Personally I just want a “yo, we’re still alive, game is real” from tc

Just wanna know HOW it’s going not WHATS going on

[surreal crown]

The Nvidia thing is just one piece of the larger puzzle. It itself doesn't mean much, but when combined with other factors it leads me to believe silksong is coming sooner than later. Regardless they could always decide to prolong release by adding something new.

I don't think Feb 1st is release btw

[serene chasm]

Anyone remember June 12th, or May 28 or any other "leak"?

[polar marsh]

I never believed those ones, those were TO soon

[surreal crown]

What were those leaks? I must've not been paying attention

[polar marsh]

How long did hollow knight take to develop

[surreal crown]

Roughly 1k days (2 years 8 months)

That includes the planning phase

[marble marsh]

if silksong has been in development for 2.5 years we are at 912 days

[polar marsh]

Maybe a April release

If going of around the same time

[marble marsh]

so 3 more months according to this logic

but silksong is bigger than hk

[polar marsh]

But now the have stuff like, money
Idk

[surreal crown]

Silksong has been in development (including planning) for about ||5 years||. Don't click controversial statement (for whatever reason)

[polar marsh]

[marble marsh]

so maybe 1.1k days which would be 3 years total in development

[serene chasm]

June 12th came from a date on steam (basically when you put a game up, you need to put in a date, Leth put June 12 2020) and the May one came from a nintendo marketing file that had something about SS and may 28th.

[marble marsh]

june 12 2020 would be way to early for a release date

same with may 28th

[surreal crown]

Thanks. Didn't even know about those.

[polar marsh]

When was the last time we got actual news

[surreal crown]

Dec 31

[polar marsh]

damn

[surreal crown]

Yeah it's uhh.... been a while

[polar marsh]

Just a minute

[heady jolt]

imagine tc gives us news on the exact last millisecond of 2021 for them

[surreal crown]

"Can't say we didn't give news in 2021!"

[polar marsh]

“Silksong! It’s been going great! We are working hard, happy holidays!”

[fiery coral]

'Update 1.5.81.12675 is live!'

[polar marsh]

I do think it isn’t super far away but definitely not extremely close

[heady jolt]

silksong release date is now hidden in the game beat all pantheons low percent hitless to get it

[polar marsh]

That would lowkey be fun

[brazen needle]

I personally think its still gonna be winter when it comes out. Hope and think.

[polar marsh]

Probs would motivate us to play for days

[heady jolt]

tbh someone would probably datamine and find it before anyone completes the challenge

[surreal crown]

Here's how confident I am in different release times:
February - 25%
Early 2022 - 60%
2022 - 100%
If Silksong doesn't release next year I'll throw out everything I know about game development

[marble marsh]

you have to beat p5 hitless all bindings will a guitar while blindfolded

[polar marsh]

2 by 2 inch screen also

[hearty tendon]

2023 if you want to be real

[polar marsh]

well nvm your blindfolded

[marble marsh]

well ur blindfolded so that wouldnt matter

[polar marsh]

ya….

[marble marsh]

also the game has low volume so you cant tell whats happening

[polar marsh]

The audio is late by a second

[torpid fractal]

why does some stuff still have you use your username to login (riot games)

[bitter oar]

also you are playing on console with a shitty guitar controller, which means that the movement delay is really high

[torpid fractal]

like bro you can't expect me to memorize my username on every platform

[marble marsh]

your inputs are also delayed 2 seconds

[polar marsh]

Your fingers are also in finger traps

And the guitar pick is wet paper

[bitter oar]

your unexistent anime girl wife who is a figment of your schizo mind is also pulling you to the side constantly because she wants to cuddle

[marble marsh]

yea its also p6 which is p5 but ascended and all modded bosses are added, any radiance instead of absrad

[bitter oar]

also, no air conditioning and no fans, with closed windows and hot towels taped under your armpits

[polar marsh]

And at the end path of pain forward and back hitless

[marble marsh]

you have to do that before doing anyrad

[polar marsh]

And after every boss

[bitter oar]

also, before anyrad there is a soul totem which actually drains you to 1 mask and permanently removes your ability to focus

[marble marsh]

remember how I said all bindings, so no charms for anyrad either

or pop so no hiveblood

[polar marsh]

Then, and just then, they’ll give us a update (it’s a riddle) (and it’s just for fun) (no answer also)

[bitter oar]

no safe spots inbetween each 5 bosses

also, the riddle is scribbled over

[brazen needle]

and you have to beat it in 10 mins

[marble marsh]

it is hidden behind the most powerful encryption, 10x over

[bitter oar]

you have to play silksong to solve the riddle

then you can play the actual silksong after solving the silksong riddle, because it will be released by the time that you even complete Path of Pantheon 6

[brazen needle]

and the riddle says that the game theorists was right

[marble marsh]

pantheon 6 but the boss arenas are impossible PoP

[bitter oar]

It then links you to an unlisted food theory video which says that the Pale King is a croissant

[polar marsh]

What boss is the coolest looking (of what we have seen in silksong)

[brazen needle]

I think the last judge

[polar marsh]

The robot mf looks sick but idk how it would be that hard

[dusk badger]

inb4 one of the hardest early game bosses

[polar marsh]

Seth looks cool also

[serene chasm]

Seth is my favourite boss we've seen so far. I love that in the gif he blocks all of hornets attacks

[polar marsh]

I really hope theirs a boss rush type thing in silksong also

[marble marsh]

songhome

[polar marsh]

I also want a hunter journals type thing (maybe from hornets perspective)

[serene chasm]

Ari did say to mossbag (back in 2019) that he hopes we aren't hoping for another godhome. Though that could change

[fiery coral]

https://tenor.com/view/senator-armstrong-armstrong-metal-gear-rising-jetstream-sam-tenshi-gif-23235874

Seth buffed up

[polar marsh]

Even if it’s not godhome I just want to be able to fight the bosses anytime

[coarse leaf]

you shout hornet voicelines when you attack or use abilities please i need this

[marble marsh]

even if there arent boss rushes I do want a HoG like thing

[tame widget]

Maybe some place where Hornet can "remember" her fights

[jade canopy]

That seems like something they would add, but not the whole boss rush mode

[marble marsh]

if TC doesnt do it I hope there is a silksong pantheon mod

[polar marsh]

has silksong been confirmed for Xbox yet cause I really don’t wanna play it on switch

Man I’m news hungry

[stoic path]

Wait who is Seth?

[jade canopy]

Probably not right after launch

[dusk badger]

Its actually not impossible i think

[polar marsh]

https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Seth

[stoic path]

Woah, how come I haven't seen him before?

Is he a boss?

[polar marsh]

Boss and npc

[potent plover]

he was a riddle character

[stoic path]

Ah

[potent plover]

Leth put 4 riddles in the discord, each leading to a certain npc.

[ocean mulch]

It's in #hk-announcements

If you scroll up

[tame widget]

Seth is like Tiso, but better & you can fight him

[marble marsh]

seth >>>>> tiso

[agile kelp]

But tisos shield was going to turn into a sawblade, flying thingy or something like that

[tame widget]

Then he got crushed by a Mawlek

[polar marsh]

#RIPBOZO💯💀😂🥱

[tame widget]

Pixar style

[west jasper]

fun fact it's been almost 1 year since the edge magazine exclusive

[little moss]

@west jasper time really flies fast, does not it?

[wooden junco]

That is not a very fun fact

[west jasper]

yea its gone real quick

its maybe fun if you think we will get another reveal on the anniversary of that event

[wooden junco]

I hope but having hope for ss news is pointless

[hearty bloom]

Generally having hope is pointless

[dusk badger]

not at all
it sometimes feels like hope for a better future inspres you to be better

[marble marsh]

your username fits with waiting for silksong

[dusk badger]

what a coincididence
almost like it was tailor made for this occasion

[uncut citrus]

Well hello there

Actually bye

[little moss]

[dusk badger]

rolled

[cerulean sable]

does the silk go down for you?

because the silk goes down for me 😔

[ocean mulch]

Down where

[serene chasm]

Just under there

[coarse leaf]

who wanna help me play test hornetsong

[cunning geode]

Good question

[wanton crest]

Holy shit, 'murican TTacco

[coarse leaf]

Any answers?

[dusk badger]

im so confused

[young saffron]

the silk let me down

[charred pulsar]

Silksong

[cunning geode]

congrats

[hollow sedge]

slipsong

no blogpost this year

[dusk badger]

we'll get them next time

[warped pagoda]

when is it coming out?

didn't the fireborn leak say feb 1

[hollow sedge]

thats not the release date

its just a placeholder, its meaningless

[verbal marsh]

you... YOU DONT KNOW THAT

[hollow sedge]

[civic timber]

if it doesn't come out in February I give up

I don't wait for it anymore

[leaden ruin]

It'll be released when the last person loses hope. So f||r*i||ck the wait

[surreal crown]

Don't give up my friend! Early 2022 is still a good bet if it's not in February

[formal karma]

technically there are no good bets because we have zero info

[regal thunder]

is silk song a Nintendo exclusive?

[wispy burrow]

for consoles? currently yeah

[cerulean sable]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/rmha3v/times_where_developers_listening_to_the_community/

Opinions in terms of what you hope TC listens to, and the feedback you hope TC doesnt get into much

i know majority of you are gonna say Yes to movement and No to difficulty decrease

[nimble radish]

I don't think they'd decrease difficulty blanket

[hollow sedge]

difficulty increase 😳

[nimble radish]

they could do hard easy normal if they really wanted

[signal crag]

leave that for Silk Soul mode

[nimble radish]

I think it'd be ideal to have regular, easy and silksoul

[hollow sedge]

eh, there should be just one set difficulty, i think it should be more difficult to master the game

in comparison to hollow knight atleast

[fiery coral]

[nimble radish]

what

[signal crag]

lmao that one

[nimble radish]

1: amazing
2: me as a dev except I would do it sober

[dusk badger]

[ocean mulch]

[cerulean sable]

What im getting is, ive seen comments wishing the game had easy mode
Whereas majority of the people here ive noticed wishes they either dont add easy mode, or if they do, the main difficulty shouldnt be affected and/or be limited to assists mode style only

maybe i shouldve worded it better

[ocean mulch]

Is your PFP bugfables

[fiery coral]

there was a comment on that post saying it may not be the best idea to ask for criticism and suggestions from the people who already love your game

[cerulean sable]

I aint free to bee Vi

[nimble radish]

who would be against adding a mode

[signal crag]

many people apparently
just the inclusion of an easy mode would ruin the game

[ocean mulch]

Is the game really that difficult

[signal crag]

not for me at least

[cerulean sable]

IIRC from my experience here, the diff is basically around

• No game is for anyone, period
• Game should remain hard, but im not against an easy/assist
• Game should be accessible

with the majority leaning around 1-2

I mean lets be honest here, with our size most of us dont find the game to be that hard

[fiery coral]

I mean I don't mind if the game's easier personally if it's fun what else could a man want

[cerulean sable]

But outside our little comfort zone its definitely difficult for a decent amount of people

at the end of the day its subjective, what you find easy can be hard for other people

[ocean mulch]

I'm 2

[nimble radish]

years old

[cerulean sable]

which is why i get annoyed with people going
Dark Souls is reputed to be a difficult game
I have played Dark Souls and finished it
Hollow Knight is reputed to be a difficult game
I could not finish Hollow Knight

Therefore: Hollow Knight has bad artificial difficulty

[nimble radish]

what makes difficultly artificial

[cerulean sable]

it goes both ways too, ive seen people breezing through HK but couldnt get past the first few areas of DS

[crisp drift]

me when Hornet Sentinel took 6 months

[nimble radish]

is it just pumping up damage values and health bars

[crisp drift]

I am not joking a

[ocean mulch]

What

How

[nimble radish]

6 months straight?

[signal crag]

the only time where that happens would be the refights with GPZ and White defender

[crisp drift]

I do actually took 6 months to beat her
Not straight, i did stop attempting for a few weeks

[fiery coral]

going to assume he played other things in the meantime and that it wasn't 6 consecutive months of just H2

[nimble radish]

and the godhome

[cerulean sable]

dunno from my experience artificial difficulty is thrown every time a game gives you a hard time and you cant go around it

but usually i think the more agreed reason ive seen online is its when they make it harder to play (ie controls)

[signal crag]

oh and also 2 masks of damage, people really hate that huh?

[split tide]

HK is certainly difficult for players new to the genre

[fiery coral]

absrad

[crisp drift]

Eventually i gave up and use weaverlings to kill Hornet

[nimble radish]

oh yeah controls being deliberately bad is obvious artificial difficulty

[split tide]

Not to mention those new to games in general

[cerulean sable]

ooh yeah 2 mask damage is sometimes spouted as artificial difficulty

[signal crag]

i mean, as long it's tied to attacks that are slower and easier to dodge most of the time, it makes sense that they punish you more, right?

[cerulean sable]

i personally prefer an inbetween, like some attacks being 2 damage while the others being 1 mask

sly i think does 2 masks when he does the greatslash iirc

[cerulean sable]

^

yeah what i meant

[split tide]

That feels more like a knee-jerk reaction to how games usually boost difficulty by only tweaking nunbers tbh

[cerulean sable]

it can be yeah

[crisp drift]

Smh there should be 5 mask damage enemy

[signal crag]

tbh, logically also his charged dash attack should also deal 2 masks then

[cerulean sable]

it doesnt?

[ocean mulch]

Lace counter is 2 msks

[cerulean sable]

i feel like slow wind ups should be justified with 2 masks damage

yeah Silksong has a couple of good examples

[signal crag]

i don't think?
i could try cheching it rn

[nimble radish]

dashslash ought to do double as it does the same as greatslash when I use it

[cerulean sable]

the justice cut also does 2 mask damage if the 1st one connects because youre basically in a "grabbed" state

[nimble radish]

but sly has skill issue

[ocean mulch]

Justice cut? Da hell

[signal crag]

also it's pretty easy to dodge his charged dash attack
so there's pretty much no reason for it to NOT deal 2 masks

[cerulean sable]

https://youtu.be/vcuD_fcm0nY?t=44

you know the lace attack that goes like this

[signal crag]

it makes sense logically (the knight's greatslash deal more damage than normal, the same applies for Sly's greatslash, so why is the dash slash any different?)
and also mechanically, for the reasons explained above

[cerulean sable]

yeah and TC mentions that a lot more attacks are gonna do 2 mask damage this time

[ocean mulch]

You mean the star slam?

[signal crag]

because of the new healing system?

as long it's fair and makes sense, sounds good to me

[cerulean sable]

i was thinking whether they should just implement half masks and what not but its probably something they would wanna avoid due to the extra calculation youd need to put on the top of your head

[ocean mulch]

Bell beast does 2

[split tide]

That makes sense, since healing is faster

[cerulean sable]

like its more simple to do it as
get hit = 1 mask

vs how most RPGs has
get hit, take 235 damage out of your 742 health bar

which you can heal for 533 with your healing item

[split tide]

Yeah nobody’s going to want to do those calcs in the middle of a hectic fight

[cerulean sable]

yeah, sometimes you just gotta stay simple

[split tide]

It’s fine for slower RPGs, but not when I’m busy trying to learn complex boss patterns

[nimble radish]

works best for turn based wombat

[cerulean sable]

like SS doesnt need to give you an item that gives you +40% resistance to electric damage etc

tho tbf SS' could implement resistances via the damage tick model they have now
like the coals, getting fire res would double the time it takes for the buildup to occur

[signal crag]

"turn based wombat"

[nimble radish]

yeah

[wispy burrow]

and is that wrong

even they said they don't think it's a good idea to make it harder

... and the movement is a big focus

[cerulean sable]

Well its certainly up to debate and weve often fought skirmishes in this channel by that very topic

[wispy burrow]

it's only up to debate by absolute masochists like me that have Mods

[copper knot]

honestly regular and turn based combats are funny because of how different you play each

[cerulean sable]

like seriously this chat used to get very wild the moment difficulty discussions pop out

[wispy burrow]

I played HK mostly for the lore, atmosphere, music, and if I literally couldn't beat Silksong it'd be upsetting lol

[copper knot]

like for regular you try to dodge and attack while retaining 100% focus and for turn based combat you spent 10 minutes trying to see how to optimally fight and pull up a calculator

[nimble radish]

why don't they just do cheat codes again

[signal crag]

that could be interesting for some kind of "suicide run" to get an item
for example, a tight corridor where you can't jump and having the sprint is the "intended" method, but with a fire res tool you could survive long enough to get the reward

[cerulean sable]

it would be like decent sequence break i guess too

[wispy burrow]

there's also hard modes and masochist challenges already

[cerulean sable]

like if say, this area cant be survived normally but with the right resist tools you can "cheese" it before your even intended to reach that

[split tide]

If TC put in an easy mode I certainly wouldn’t complain

[cerulean sable]

at the cost ofc like, its riskier

[signal crag]

as a way to reward players creativity

[wispy burrow]

the base of a game should not be inaccessible even to people that play quite a few videogames

[split tide]

They’re not obligated to ofc, just that I wouldn’t mind it

[nimble radish]

that makes you a normal person

[signal crag]

i mean, if you tied all you rosaries into strings, what could you lose by doing so?
maybe only some death penalty, like less silk spool?

[cerulean sable]

well see on release

i still feel like the death system is still on the works at that point

[drowsy isle]

Good morning silksong enthousiasts

[signal crag]

we'll see MANY things on release

[nimble radish]

rosaries fall into lava and are destroyed

[cerulean sable]

yeah

[signal crag]

huh? such a basic mechanic still in the works for you?

[shy kiln]

What is the December Division?

[wispy burrow]

if you need the game to be harder there are following ways that can be in the game to add extra challenge without fucking over new or not great players:

-difficulty modes

-perma death

-locks, like no charm equivalent

-harder boss versions

-allowance of mods again

-self-imposed challenges, maybe built in for achievements

-the various speedrun routes

[signal crag]

news in december believers

[shy kiln]

Yeah, I would like to pass; thanks

[signal crag]

very silly, right?

[coarse leaf]

giving a chance for the player to grind and "overlevel" themself for a given area is better than difficulty modes imo

[shy kiln]

[wispy burrow]

overlevel in a 2d platformer

.-.

bro you shouldnt have to grind in your metroidvania 2d plarformer

[signal crag]

lmao, why not?

[drowsy isle]

Or just turn moss mother into a super hard boss and those who can't beat her won't get to play the game

[wispy burrow]

just let people play the game jesus christ

[split tide]

I’d rather there be a base level of difficulty with assist mode on the side

[nimble radish]

games that have grinding are all bad

[split tide]

Celeste is brought up a lot, but I also really like terraria’s journey mode for this too

[coarse leaf]

assist mode is another good alternative

[copper knot]

terraria:

[wispy burrow]

Let's ruin the pace for new players to make the game stupid hard for the small hardcore audience!

[nimble radish]

yeah

[copper knot]

how dare you

[split tide]

Both are very well suited for their respective games and feel like natural add-ons

[coarse leaf]

ah yes, the silksong surely will be hardcore

[wispy burrow]

assist mode to make up for a bad difficulty curve is an awful idea

[open abyss]

I wonder how side-quests will be organized in Silksong? I am talking about the ones, which were on quest boards in the trailer/ Will they have interesting story? Or some interesting challenge? Or both Chat your speculations?

[drowsy isle]

Yeah I let them play the game as much as they want but the world will be limited if they can't beat moss mother

[wispy burrow]

first of all, many will assume (including me) that assist mode is not the base gameplay mode, or something that is base level of difficulty

[split tide]

It’s not to make up for bad design, but to let anyone experience the game at a more customizable pace

[nimble radish]

well yeah assist mode isn't base gameplay mode

[wispy burrow]

a more customizable pace or make the game not too hard to get into and have lategame or achievement challenges

[split tide]

Do you want the game to be easier overall? It’s fine if you do

[copper knot]

saying assist mode is a base gameplay mode is like thinking creative mode is base gameplay mode

[wispy burrow]

exactly, so jjust make the base gameplay mode have good design

and add hard modes

[wispy burrow]

i'm talking about "the base game should be harder (than hk)"

[split tide]

Ah that

[nimble radish]

good design doesn't mean not hard

[sweet lotus]

hello fellow Silksong anticipators!

[split tide]

I wouldn’t mind an official bindings mode or something

[wispy burrow]

good design doesn't mean not medium or easy difficulty either

it means

a

Curve

[split tide]

Basically your ideas really

[copper knot]

honestly i think ss shouldnt be easier or harder. make it like hk

[nimble radish]

that's what they already said was the plan

[split tide]

So you can make it brutal from the getgo if you want, or actually play the game as intended

[copper knot]

honestly i hate games that have a difficulty setting that is just poorly planned out because many players want an easy mode

like "oh wow players want an easy mode? lets just make every enemy deal half a damage!"

[wispy burrow]

the experience you get from playing ramps up with the difficulty to make for a natural pace of getting better and challenges you face

[nimble radish]

but that doesn't make assist mode useless

[wispy burrow]

that is the most classic and normal theory on how to balance a game which has a start and end

[nimble radish]

it just means people start using it later on

[drowsy isle]

Wtf don't steal my lines

[copper knot]

hello fellow silksong anticipators

[nimble radish]

great artists steal slaz

[copper knot]

:troll:

[wispy burrow]

lori if the idea is you add assist mode so new players dont have shit pacing (losing at the same guy for a long ass time to progress is bad pacing) is not gonna work, it should exist in general though

also, no. the point is that you prepare players for the challenge and don't just throw them into the pit. and you add the extra hard shit at post game

the difficulty you find from early on boss fights is only slightly increased when fighting original THK is the theory, because you've been prepared for it as well as you have been those bosses, so it equals out more that the player won't be trying it for like hours

[buoyant osprey]

That's it. Watch this guys. I bet silksong will release as a shadow drop on Christmas day and u can't stop me for I am powerful and this is gonna happen trust

[wispy burrow]

stop typing in response if that is what you're doing

consider what im saying and not just "oh im looking for a counter point!!"

[nimble radish]

you clearly don't understand what's being said so I'll leave you alone

[buoyant osprey]

.tf did I walk into

[wispy burrow]

no, i do understand what's being said because i started the convo and have had no issues

[split tide]

Assist mode is usually for accessiblity

Like it is in celeste and to a lesser extent terraria

[wispy burrow]

the idea given was assist mode to balance out being extremely hard to new players

[nimble radish]

but no one ever struggles if the game is well made

[wispy burrow]

im all for an assist mode

just, not to make up for a bad gameplay curve

[split tide]

Shouldn’t be used to excuse a bad difficulty curve, but I doubt TC will do that

[wispy burrow]

yeah this is all theoretical

tc said similar to HK

[nimble radish]

but then why did you start being skill issue

[west jasper]

Just add "roll credits" as an option in the pause menu, then everyone can "finish" the game!

[nimble radish]

speedrun strategy

[copper knot]

opinion alert: a boss being ridiculously hard doesnt equal bad design. its only bad design when the game doesnt explain it to you on how the mechanics work, therefore making you stuck on a single attack without getting better

🏃 💨

[split tide]

I don’t think anyone here really believes that

[shy kiln]

AbsWorst would like to know your location

[split tide]

I.e. that boss hard = bad

But sometimes a boss is hard because of bad design

[wispy burrow]

I have some friends who are adults and don't play many videogames anymore say "I wanted to play HK but the difficulty made it too hard" because well

it's already not for everyone

why lock off more people for someone to get their gamer dose of "My self worth has improved as I beat hard game!"

and, i didnt @nimble radish

@west jasper i get what you're referencing and that meme really isn't a counter point

what people are actually saying is that there is more to many videogames than just "wow much difficulty", and not having options can often lock people out of exploring and experiencing these worlds

no one said that sans, at least unless it is like idk the first boss lol

[coarse leaf]

boss being a distinct difficulty spike is not a bad thing at all

[open abyss]

Well assist mode is really hard to balance with normal mode. Actually to say every difficulty mode is pretty hard to balance. You need to be damn good in math. And it will take a huge amount of time to develop. Well assist mode is really a good thing, but you need to do it correctly. If you do it wrong, than entire balance in the game will collapse

[copper knot]

(losing at the same guy for a long ass time to progress is bad pacing)

[wispy burrow]

assist mode in celeste is what they should just straight up copy

[split tide]

You don’t need to balance assist mode that much; the main point usually is to make it like a story mode

[wispy burrow]

that's p much all you need voice

[coarse leaf]

how does celeste assist mode work again?

[copper knot]

it doesnt really matter if a boss is hard or not tbh, it only matters if it feels like you cant improve on fighting the boss

[split tide]

And really for the most part assist mode is very on the side in celeste

[open abyss]

Celeste doesn't have battle system and enemies.

[wispy burrow]

you get a lot of varying options that are kinda like cheat codes

[split tide]

A slightly varied assist mode could work

[wispy burrow]

does that matter here?

[copper knot]

honestly i dont think assist mode should be in silksong

[split tide]

E.g. going from slightly more damage to instakilling bosses

[copper knot]

i just dont think it'll work yaknow

[split tide]

One where you can toggle it to your whim

[wispy burrow]

just add options to make battles easier too, gg

[nimble radish]

it's really easy to add an assist mode

[split tide]

And ofc literally nobody is forcing you to use it

[open abyss]

Yes. Because it is two completely different games.

[coarse leaf]

i think they might do it

[wispy burrow]

why is the concept different here

all you've said is: the two are different games.

now, why is that relevant here

[open abyss]

One is focused on platforming. Another on battles.

[copper knot]

i mean different genres are not the same (the floor is made out of floor) so ideas that work on another game may not work on another

[split tide]

It’s not an exact copy, just the base idea

[wispy burrow]

okay and why not just add things for battles then

[nimble radish]

no I think godmode is pretty universal

[split tide]

You need to show why the base idea of assist mode in general won’t work for HK

[wispy burrow]

yall mfers are acting up fr

yes they are different games

so adapt the system

[copper knot]

tbh i dont even know what we are debating about

[coarse leaf]

i mean using assist mode to easy down the battles might feel unsatisfying but if some players would need it then sure

[nimble radish]

it's really unclear

[copper knot]

im just going with the flow on whatever is being said i dont even know the main argument here

[split tide]

Some people would need it or just want it, and nothing wrong with that

[wispy burrow]

add celeste's assist mode to more games, including hk and ss

[copper knot]

alright thanks for the clarification

i dont think an assist or easy mode will work on every game though

[wispy burrow]

you can if you want just add an achievement for never using it on playthrough if people whine about Oh no my gamer points, my self worth validation

[split tide]

It’s not like HK or SS are just boss rushes either

[wispy burrow]

what interested me most about hk was the world

[copper knot]

tbh i dont want assist mode not because "oh no my gamer ego" its just that if a game is not built around having multiple difficulty options. having an assist mode can break the game on its core.

[nimble radish]

then obviously the assist mode would be good

[split tide]

In HK there’s an incredible amount of effort put into the environment

[split tide]

How so; nobody is forcing you to use assist mode

[wispy burrow]

it's completely optional and there isn't anything to balanxe

the player chooses what essentially cheat codes they get

[nimble radish]

only if you choose to use it

[wispy burrow]

like celeste's assist mode ranges from

one extra jump

to

oh infinite jumps

[split tide]

You can literally just ignore it if you don’t want it to affect your game, and the base game is just not balanced around it either

[nimble radish]

more options are always an improvement

[wispy burrow]

if not for an official assist mode it'd just be these people turning to mods, quitting the game, or not having access as they are on console

[copper knot]

think about it. a difficulty option that isnt just number scaling isnt easy to program. especially if the core view of the game is built on being hard. having a difficulty that makes everything easy is just

slash slash, continue the game. slash slash, continue the game. slash slash, continue the game.

[open abyss]

For battles main problem is balancing numbers.It is possible,but really hard to make and if mistakes be made it will ruin the game.. Like okay what do you want with assist mode for battle game?

[wispy burrow]

it's not about balancing it. the explicit purpose is to let the player give themselves advantages

[nimble radish]

godmode

[split tide]

HK and SS aren’t built solely on being hard games either

[nimble radish]

or just double all damage, double health
who care

[split tide]

My most memorable moments in the game actually have zilch to do with the bosses, as well designed as they are

[wispy burrow]

firstly, it's a metroidvania

secondly, the player chooses their own cheats, so the player balances it

who is to say they are wrong for making it a bit easier or straight up god mode

[copper knot]

true. but it can also like. ruin how a game is built by removing something that makes it special ya know?

imagine if the radiance fight is easy. yeah there wont be any struggle, but you will loose out on the epic final battle that you have been dreading all along

[split tide]

It’s only for a game like Furi, which is a literal boss rush of a game, where your point is rather valid

[nimble radish]

it wouldn't remove anything

[wispy burrow]

the most memorable moment of hk to me was exploring the city of tears and experiencing the vibe

[split tide]

It’s still epic enough without the difficult boss fight

[coarse leaf]

why would you buy a game just to skim through it with a godmode though, ah you know nevermind, to each their own

[nimble radish]

it adds, by nature an optional mode adds to it

[wispy burrow]

and they can choose that or refight it without them. done

[open abyss]

Well some people value lore,story and visuals

[split tide]

Mine too; just dropping into the city and having the absolutely gorgeous choir come on over the speakers was an incredible moment

HK is so much more than just it’s bosses and difficulty

[wispy burrow]

firstly there is more than just battles here

secondly, who is to say that they are skimming

[split tide]

So, so, so much more than just that

[wispy burrow]

also assist modes allow people who literally can't play a game to be able to experience it firsthand, especially the world

like having an injury that allows you to hold and use some inputs at once, but not extremely quickly

so they give themselves an advantage to make up for it

[copper knot]

alright lemme give another example, hornet

for new players, hornet is a huge difficulty spike and thats because its supposed to reflect on hornet's personality. a strong warrior who is determined on fighting anyone that comes to her way to save her home. it builds character and makes her strong and someone that is capable of kicking your ass. however if the player chooses to make it easy, they loose out on the character building on how strong she is.

[nimble radish]

if you want to

[haughty ingot]

yooooo https://youtu.be/GSlEti_ffhE

[nimble radish]

you don't have to and that's the point, celeste is all about overcoming challenges
and yet if you want you can make it easy

[coarse leaf]

first Hornet fight was a pain in the ass for me

[wispy burrow]

i found hornet 1 and 2 to be some of the easiest bosses in the game

and i still respect her due to the lore

[rapid topaz]

sick !

[split tide]

Right, but that’s still their choice, and for the most part people should understand that turning on one-hit KOs will remove the difficulty aspect of storytelling

Which is fine

[wispy burrow]

also they are free to well

play the game again

[pastel silo]

TC said themselves that they have expectations from players and that they want to challenge them...and if the players hit a difficulty wall then they can just go exloring other areas and return to fight the boss after they get a bit stronger by gathering loot

[wispy burrow]

you are not locked from choosing assist or not, you can play the game without it

[coarse leaf]

its all subjective, for me Broken Vessel is one of the easiest

[wispy burrow]

and who is to say tc is in the right here

[split tide]

This discussion is more theory than anything concrete really

[copper knot]

look. i am not against easy/assist mode. if the gamedev wants it. then great! but if an easy mode is shoehorned in just to appease the players, it can ruin a lot of what makes the game good, especially is the game is not built to be easy. remember. gaming is for everyone. but not all games is for everyone

[wispy burrow]

yes. the point is you dont need the difficulty spike to get the personality

[spark hinge]

yeah man, i first tried hornet 1 but died multiple times to massive moss charger of all things

[split tide]

But HK isn’t solely about difficulty

[nimble radish]

all games are for everyone sometimes you need mods to make it that way

[copper knot]

i would argue that the reason why hk got this popular is because of its difficulty, similar to dark souls

[split tide]

Hell I wouldn’t even say a big part of what makes it great is it’s difficulty

[wispy burrow]

what if you like the lore, graphics, music, world, characters but can't play a game because of a disability, sucking ass, not having time to grind a game, or just don't feel likd it

this is why celeste assist mode has caused such a fuss

it's just way better to have accessibility options

[pastel silo]

There is no right or wrong...its a design decision ...if they want all players to overcome some difficult challenges and thus get more connected to the world it's their choice and it's neither correct nor wrong

[split tide]

And I guess people are supposed to be OK that they can’t enjoy a product they spent money on just because they can’t git gud skissue

[wispy burrow]

yes there is. when people who cannot be blamed are fucked over by a bad design decision, and that can be overturned at no cost of anyone else

it is a bad decision

[copper knot]

then im sorry, but that game isnt for you. nobody is forcing everyone to play a specific game. not all games are for everyone. for example i cant play fast paced first person games due to me being easily prone to motion sickness. but do i think they should add a third person view to cater to people like me? no. i respect that those games arent for me.

[split tide]

It’s a pretty big claim to make that HK/SS would be utterly trashed by adding on an assist mode

[nimble radish]

it's not a bad decision to make a game hard

[fleet temple]

I feel like an assist mode would just remove half the fun of the game, sure maybe some people aren't really interested in the combat but the game is meant to be a challenge and an assist mode would kind of just remove half the fun imo
"but you don't have to use it"
even still I feel like the point of hk is to be challenging and turning it off would just feel wrong
if you can't deal with the difficulty then game just isn't for you

[wispy burrow]

except you can have both

and games are art

[nimble radish]

just... don't do it

[copper knot]

games are art. but you cant cater every single game to everyone.

[wispy burrow]

Games are the only artform where people whine and say "well you shouldn't be able to experience this art"

[coarse leaf]

did you read the whole message

[wispy burrow]

okay and what about hk

[copper knot]

what point are you tryna make

[nimble radish]

yeah

[split tide]

And there is no denying that HK is hard to people new to the genre

[wispy burrow]

hk should have an assist mode

period lol

[pastel silo]

Again, they want the player to push through challenging moments to then be rewarded and appreciate the rewards and world even more...not a bad decision

[split tide]

Like potentially incredibly hard

[wispy burrow]

and both could be safisfied, yes

[copper knot]

if teamcherry has a vision to make hk have an easy mode? sure. but its clear that they dont. so

[split tide]

This convo is theoretical

[wispy burrow]

it's not an easy mode

it's an assist mode

[open abyss]

When you ask about concrete things well. People don't know. Like I am all for for Assist mode,but this is really hard to make and even imagine in order to keep the game well designed.So yeah. It is up to developers and game designer to decide how to make this game anyways.

[nimble radish]

why care how other people play the game
I think speedrunning is also against the design, still fine for people to do it

[copper knot]

same thing

[split tide]

TC aren’t going to be adding an assist mode just because some dudes on discord are talking about it

[wispy burrow]

it's not aiming to be an easy mode

it's meant to give players options

[copper knot]

🥴

[wispy burrow]

an easy mode is a game rebalanced to be easier

[copper knot]

my point still stands

just replace easy with assist and my point still stands

[fleet temple]

by that logic a kids learning game should have the same difficulty as hollow knight

[split tide]

Easy mode implies that you are spending significant time to balance the game around it

[wispy burrow]

assist mode is for people with disabilities, people who don't have the time, people who can't

[split tide]

Assist mode is more of something tacked on

[wispy burrow]

no, that isn't the logic

[copper knot]

its just bad wording on my part lul

[split tide]

It tends to include stuff like godmode and changes the very mechanics of the game

[rapid topaz]

I mean... I'm not sure TC expected their game to be so popular, I think they didn't even thought of assist mode due to a "niche" target audience.

[pastel silo]

They give players option tho...as they said themselves, players have option to explore other areas for loot and get stronger if they hit a difficult boss

[wispy burrow]

Literally the only counter argument to an assist mode being given is

"God I feeel like that'd devalue it" with no real reason given why

just make it obvious that an assist mode is not the full experience and make an achievement for not using it on a playthrough

[split tide]

There’s still a limit; hornet 1 is a good example, since you cant do much else besides try again and again

[wispy burrow]

no value is lost and more people gain value out of the product

[split tide]

Since you cant go to CoT or get new spells or whatnot

[copper knot]

not all games are for everyone, and thats fine. a game dev shouldnt be forced to make the game friendly to everyone

ive repeated this statement so many times its comical at this point

[nimble radish]

increasing options improves the game because more people can play how they want, no obligation to add any option from permadeath to speedrun clock to assist mode
it just adds to the game

[hazy dome]

Same with furry

[split tide]

Nothing wrong with adding an assist mode either

[copper knot]

did- did you even read my statements

[wispy burrow]

no, it isn't fine to arbitrarily limit the amount of people who can play a game

HK is more than just "difficulty!!!"

[split tide]

It doesn’t break the game at all

[wispy burrow]

yes furry and i think they are very dumb and very "feeeel"

[copper knot]

you dont get my point, dont you

[rapid topaz]

Also I don't see how it adds value with a new achievement lol

[fleet temple]

I think if people need a cheat menu to play the rest of the game, then the game isn't for them

[split tide]

Like I played Celeste without assist mode, and not once did I feel like it was pressuring me

[wispy burrow]

why should they not be able to experience what they want

why would you want less people to have more enjoyment from a product

[copper knot]

its not arbitrarily limiting the amount of people to play your game. its catering to specific audience. you cant complain that a horror movie is bad because it doesnt cater to children.

[split tide]

People “cheat” all the time for books too

[nimble radish]

by that logic if people skip past the entire story then the game isn't for them either
but speedrunners exist

[split tide]

They go online to search for interpretations and better readings

[wispy burrow]

y'all are actively avocating for less people being able to have fun with a game you like

[copper knot]

because that game isnt for them

and thats fine.

[wispy burrow]

why do you get to decide if the game is not for them

[copper knot]

not every game is for everyone. stop thinking about the gamers and think about the game devs for a sec

[hazy dome]

Why just we dont just add cheat mode from the mod community than doing assist mode by TC?

[pastel silo]

There is no value being lost if they add a god mode where you have infinite health ...if they were to add everything that doesn't decrease the value of the game they would never release it...if TC want to challenge players in order to experience their world fully its their choice and you just gotta deal with it

[coarse leaf]

TC are the one to decide

[copper knot]

if they cant complete a game without suffering or having to beg for the devs to ask for an easy mode. its not for them, simple

[wispy burrow]

firstly, mods aren't on consoles

secondly an assist mode basically is a cheat menu

[wispy burrow]

okay and why shouldn't they be able to experience the rest of the game

[hazy dome]

Ahh so you a console player

[split tide]

How is that relevant

[copper knot]

because its not catered to them

[fleet temple]

have you thought that some games are designed for a certain audience
for example
a call of duty game is designed for a different audience than brain age

[wispy burrow]

and in that case their decision is wrong

[hazy dome]

So you dont like cheat menu?

[wispy burrow]

sure, but it's not up to the author to decide the value of their own art

[copper knot]

just admit that not all games are for everyone. some people cant play hard games, some people cant play violent games, some people cant play sexual games

and thats fine

[wispy burrow]

Death Of The Author

[fleet temple]

tf does that mean?

[nimble radish]

but who cares though
it doesn't damage the game to add new stuff

[pastel silo]

No, you saying that every single game needs to be beatable without a challange , that is wrong

[wispy burrow]

Have you never heard of Death Of The Author, before

[split tide]

So people should just suck it up and do nothing about the game?

[copper knot]

this isnt a book. this is a game. i get what ur tryna say but games are made to be catered to specific people

[wispy burrow]

every game with value other than "oh im challenging!!!"

[copper knot]

just admit you dont like hard games man

[fleet temple]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make at this point

[split tide]

Dude don’t descend to insults

[wispy burrow]

You are not into books are you

Books are also catered to specific people first of all

secondly, if you like every but one aspect of a game, why should that.be the end

also, what about people with disabilities

[copper knot]

im not insulting im just saying

[split tide]

Not cool, just argue points

[copper knot]

how is saying "you dont like hard games" an insult

[split tide]

It’s also completely irrelevant

[copper knot]

how is that an insult? just explain lol

[wispy burrow]

if you want to know, I've spent hours upon hours of my life beating masochist mario maker levels

i like games like celeste with no assist mode

and friends only a half year ago convinced me

oops wrong reply

[copper knot]

im not telling them to fuck off or that their opinion doesnt matter. this is going to remain a civil debate lol

[split tide]

It can be taken as one, as though it’s telling the person you’re stating it to git gud because you’re bad

[copper knot]

WHAT

[split tide]

I will admit that it’s bad of me to assume that it was insulting to the person

[wispy burrow]

"face it, you just don't like hard..."

is an insult because you're insinuating I have an alterior motive

[copper knot]

im not saying to git gud im essentially saying games like hollow knight are not for them

and thats fine

[split tide]

But it certainly can have an insulting tone

[pastel silo]

If the developers want to have a challenge as part of the player's experience then it is not wrong ...it's their decision, just as when people decide to make movies that require more indepth thought to fully understand them...it's not wrong, they just want to make a specific type of experience regardless whether it will be enjoyed by everybody

[split tide]

It also implies that your opinion is invalid if you’re not good enough

[copper knot]

alright can we move on from this insulting debate thing. im not trying to insult

[wispy burrow]

Death Of The Author

[copper knot]

dont try to analyse my message too hard. im just saying

[wispy burrow]

but you did and I want an apology

[split tide]

Very well, but you should also watch how you phrase things

[copper knot]

i am not insulting you

[wispy burrow]

you did, you insinuated I have an alterior motive in my points

[copper knot]

i dont???

[fleet temple]

wtf does that have to do with ANYTHING!?!?!

[copper knot]

what the hell

please im trying to be civil as possible dont delve this into "did i insult you" argument

[copper knot]

thanks for clarifying my opinions lol

im not good at wording

[hazy dome]

This is so much fun to watch
This is must Radiance feel like seeing bugs argue themselves how to handle the infection

[split tide]

I have seen it used as an insult mind you, so it’s not coming from nowhere, but you don’t seem to have malicious intent, so I guess it’s fine

[nimble radish]

you still on this

[wispy burrow]

Death Of The Author: An artist's intentions or background holds no merit in discussing the values or interpretations of their art. It can only give a basis, but should not be taken as what it is.

For instance someone could think they are making a science fiction novel but it's meh at that but really good as some other thing. The author saying it's science fiction does not really matter here as if the audience finds it better at this other thing, that is what it will be

At best you can say "well they didn't hold to that correctly"

[rapid topaz]

yep

[copper knot]

death of an author usually counts if something is corporately owned and the art has grown bigger than the artist (harry potter, etc). this is not the case

[split tide]

To be honest I don’t subscribe to complete death of the author

[wispy burrow]

No, this is simply untrue

It goes for all art

[fleet temple]

and that relates to this how??

[split tide]

But I get what you mean

[nimble radish]

death of the author can be applied to any work, as it's a method of interpretation

[open abyss]

So okay. So just add godmode and that's all? Well ok that sounds more like concrete thing.

[copper knot]

keyword: usually

[split tide]

It’s a method of interpretation to any work

It’s unrelated to how successful or not the work itself is

[pastel silo]

It doesnt apply here...because the TC's intentions are the challenges in our case...and that will be present in the game regardless of how the players interpret or discuss hk...the challenge will be present in the same way for every player

[copper knot]

also uh
i dont agree with full on "death of the author" even if the author is a shit person like jk rowling but lets not get into that

[wispy burrow]

the point of "oh the devs want this" does not change the value of its art, or is a good point against an interpretation

if my interpretation is that the game excels at these aspects ans that the difficulty should not stop people from enjoying the rest, the dev's decision and vision is not a counter-point. you need to address what I said on its own merit.

[wispy burrow]

it does, and I kinda just said why

[copper knot]

you kinda missed out on the point that the devs are the only one making it

[wispy burrow]

so what

what does that change of what I said

[split tide]

The analysis is from the perspective of the person consuming the work in this case

[copper knot]

in books and fiction, death of the author means that people can imagine their story in a fanfiction or smth however they want
this isnt a book
this is something you actively play on a computer or a console

[wispy burrow]

I am giving my interpretation and how to improve the game based on it

The dev's intent does not matter here

You have to say that my interpretation is wrong, based on the actual game

[split tide]

From an abstract standpoint it’s all media, and the original essay does not restrict to books either

[rapid topaz]

[wispy burrow]

videogames did not exist in 1967

[copper knot]

jesus christ ive been debating for too long that my kfc is now cold lmao

imma eat now, enjoy the rest of the debate

[split tide]

Bye

[wispy burrow]

anyways, it's more of a concept now than a specific thing

[hazy dome]

Whats your point exactly?
You want SS to have assist mode so casual people can enjoy it?

[split tide]

And yeah literary analysis has very much expanded from only books

[fiery coral]

advice for future reference: prioritise meals over internet arguments @copper knot

[split tide]

Man we went on a tangent

[crisp drift]

True

[wispy burrow]

or people with disabilities

or people who genuinely can't play the game well enough

[hazy dome]

Ahh i see

[fleet temple]

I think so, they are running out of points so they are trying to bring philosophy into this lmao

[split tide]

They aren’t running out of points

[wispy burrow]

you literally made one point and I made like six major points

[copper knot]

lmao

[split tide]

The discussion is still ongoing

[nimble radish]

that's an order, akivaq

[split tide]

Go eat your KFC; reheat if necessary

[wispy burrow]

the discussion is getting more toxic so idk if I wanna continue

@fiery coral what do you think

[split tide]

I don’t think anyone’s budging

[wispy burrow]

should continue or end

[rapid topaz]

that's up to you..

[fiery coral]

if it's kept civil no harm in continuing

[brittle garnet]

What's this discussion about anyway?

[fleet temple]

if ss should have an assist mode

[split tide]

Assist mode or not in HK/SS

[wispy burrow]

-Assist mode from Celeste adapted into Hollow Knight: Silksong

[brittle garnet]

I mean, sure, why not.

[open abyss]

Accessibility for Hollow Knight

[split tide]

Purely theoretical, and nobody’s going to make demands to TC for anything ofc

[nimble radish]

I don't think if it should is important
it wouldn't be bad if it did

but it would be ok without too

[fiery coral]

yeah no harm in having one

[wispy burrow]

i suddenly feel a lot better ngl

i felt suffocation around my brain

[fiery coral]

although I am curious as to what exactly Assist Mode in Celeste does, having never played it

[coarse leaf]

its basically cheats

[hazy dome]

But sometimes , not all games can cater to everyone
Look at Darkest Dungeon
Game is brutal as fuck
It doesnt care who you are , it will beat you up senseless yet many people still love it but also many people stay away from it

[stoic path]

How would assist mode work though? Would the enemies be easier? Would hornet have all the abilities from the start?

[wispy burrow]

you have a lot of options

it ranges from things like

One extra jump

To infinite jump

[nimble radish]

various toggleable "cheats" infinite dashes, no damage, etc

[fleet temple]

more like a cheat menu

[wispy burrow]

It has a big range is imo the big part

[rapid topaz]

It is still theorical though. We can't just decide to add something, or ask TC to add something

[fiery coral]

...hm

[wispy burrow]

It can be godmode or just a really big boost

[brittle garnet]

Darkest Dungeon doesn't require mechanical skill or precision, though

[wispy burrow]

My idea is to make an achievement for not using it in a playthrough, also

So people get their gamer ego

[stoic path]

Oh, well I mean that doesn't sound too bad actually, considering how hard HK can be for some people.

[fiery coral]

As long as it's made clear what the dev-intended way of playing is, and where it transitions to 'these are basically cheats', I see no downsides yeah

[hazy dome]

Say who
That game require one important skill
||Stress management||

[wispy burrow]

I feel suddenly surrounded with actual sense again 😭😭😭

[nimble radish]

that's why you have the celeste warning screen

[radiant wraith]

Celeste didn't lock away any achievement when you used Assist Mode, I love that

[wispy burrow]

Yes! That's one of the best parts

[open abyss]

Well here lies a problem. Lot of options and need to decide which you want to add and time for doing that. Beside that excellent idea.

[rapid topaz]

Yep

[nimble radish]

see

[fleet temple]

we were just voicing out opinions, don't call us toxic because we didn't agree with your opinion

[wispy burrow]

It's not hidden that if you use Assist Mode it is not the full intended experience

[wispy burrow]

Y'all were making the discussion very toxic. Your last message was saying I ran out of points so I turned to philosophy

[fiery coral]

Although in the case of a game like Silksong I wonder how this theoretical assist mode will grant options without spoiling the player 🥴

[rapid topaz]

I think that was some joke

[hazy dome]

[stoic path]

There is another issue. A lot of people criticized Celeste for actually including ASSIST mode, saying that it was an odd addition

[fiery coral]

Like, if HK had 'Monarch Wings max usage:' as an option, I'd be confused as to what those are

you know what I mean

[brittle garnet]

Well, to be fair,
Developers also have an intended way to play their games.
Im not sure if Team Cherry would implement something like that, since it seems like their approach is that the gear you can equip is the actual difficulty options.