hk-lore

[near sequoia]

Wonder what the ending is about

[neat kite]

attributing publicly available knowledge to group exclusivity is very telling

[loud crater]

By that logic shouldn't everything on the internet be rather common knowledge? And again, I didnt know what it was until you defined it to me so it being common knowledge might be due to you hanging around more " nerdy" circles where it is common knowledge.

[split compass]

frankly, I don't think the possibility of a pure vessel existing is any kind of contradiction for the idea that nothing lasts forever
the fact is the vessels didn't work, I just argue that all the evidence in the game suggests that they failed because of PK's error, not because of any inevitable/inherent flaw with the concept itself
personally, I'm of the opinion that a tragedy you can avoid but fail to through your own errors is more tragic than one you cannot avoid no matter what

[near sequoia]

No true scotsman is pretty well known

[split compass]

the Radiance is the game's metaphorical stand-in for the inevitability of time/nature/etc. and you flat out just murder her

if PK had raised up a Lord of Shades instead of trying for a pure vessel it potentially could have worked

[hot lily]

yes, and to kill her requires disregarding purity entirely

[split compass]

it turned out that neither option worked out for him

[neat kite]

If "nothing lasts forever," then purity doesn't last forever either. That is exactly what me and Yak are saying, it was a state that was achieved and then lost. which makes someone's comment calling you rare literate hk fan ironic

[near sequoia]

a tragedy you can avoid but its described as unavoidable in game 💀

[loud crater]

Maybe I have the skewed view then. Hrmm.

[split compass]

I mean, that was one shroom's opinion

[hot lily]

purity as a state of being is intended to be (at least) countably infinite in duration, as PK himself says regarding Void

[near sequoia]

Radiance is the stand-in for time and nature and void is his attempt to defy time/nature as he literally says in his own words

The game repeatedly tells you that this is impossible and folly

So suggesting he could've succeeded but failed due to personal mistake is insane

[loud crater]

Purity might just be an unattainable state then. A constrcut invented by the PK which he hoped the Vessels could fill.

[split compass]

there's also a narrative theme of the Void kicking time and nature's ass, which does work

A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.
PK was on the right track with using the Void, he just failed to use it properly - maybe there was no way for him to use it properly

[hot lily]

if purity doesn't last forever then it's a self-refuting concept

[near sequoia]

It doesn't work for PK because the kingdom is still dead at the end of the game

[neat kite]

invincibility/timeless and nontarnishable qualities attributed to pure state by PL and WL was wrong

[indigo venture]

What are yall debating

[neat kite]

based on what? if i may ask?

[tough jetty]

Whether purity can be lost

[hot lily]

leave the channel right now

[tough jetty]

i say no

[near sequoia]

Unreliable narrator card 😭 🙏

[indigo venture]

what

[hot lily]

you were warned

[loud crater]

Save yourself.

[indigo venture]

I mean I'd say it depends

[tough jetty]

Purity can't be lost because to gain a thought you had to have a "mind to think" in the first place

[indigo venture]

Depends if you think Purity is immutable or not

Or whatever the word is

I don't remember

[hot lily]

PK intended purity to have an indefinite effect on something within the world; if purity itself cannot last forever then the probability of failure over an infinite timespan is 100%

[split compass]

sure, maybe there was no way for PK to have done anything
maybe only a vessel like TK could have done it.
bearing the weight of ages of failure and ruin, accepting their entire nature and united the Void
regardless, if the possibility of a Lord of Shades existing does not clash with the game's narrative themes of inevitability and futility, there is no reason to consider a pure vessel as doing so

[neat kite]

which was fundamentally wrong assumption of pale king and white lady about purity

[tough jetty]

PoP ending proves that THK was impure because it was able to get a thought, not because it gained a thought

[hot lily]

PoP is not necessarily the idea instilled and to think otherwise is missing the forest for the trees

[near sequoia]

maybe there was no way for PK to have done anything
if the possibility of a Lord of Shades existing does not clash with the game's narrative themes of inevitability and futility, there is no reason to consider a pure vessel as doing so

They were his plan dawg

[tough jetty]

Any mind at all means radiance can controll

[indigo venture]

How long has this been going on

[sage bronze]

Your conclusions are right but your way of reaching them is a little skewed

[near sequoia]

3 years I believe

[hot lily]

longer

[near sequoia]

Maybe 2

[indigo venture]

It's the first time I see this channel so lively

And it's over this?

[split compass]

6, 7 years hooo

[hot lily]

purity debates have been held semi-regularly since 2020

[tough jetty]

how? may i ask

[loud crater]

I need to leave soon so I'm going to say that Purity, if it exists at all, cannot be lost as you would lack anything to make you impure. Purity is simply put being able to permanently seal the Radiance. If the Radiance can find something to use against you and escape than you weren't pure at all. Anyways, bye!

[tough jetty]

sih seve

[hot lily]

exactly

[loud crater]

[tough jetty]

exactly

[neat kite]

You guys are still stuck in the No True Scotsman loop, you guys keep falsely attributing traits to purity which is not proven to be true within a game

[sage bronze]

Vessels having some sort of mind is fine and necessary for the plan (which is to put radiance in one of their minds) to make much sense

[tough jetty]

To have a thought to think about you have to have a mind to think about it

[tough jetty]

i thought that Radiance was meant to be sealed in a being with no mind, like a really comically big jar

[near sequoia]

(Not that it matters for interpreting White Lady's dialogue its a bit of a side tangent )

[tough jetty]

any mind would make it a vessel for the wrong side

[neat kite]

which is wrongly attributed quality to purity, again...

[near sequoia]

Rad exists in dreams and she's sealed in THK's dream

[indigo venture]

Tf is the "No True Scootsman loop"

[sage bronze]

She’s basically a living idea, the kind of space she can exist in is minds

[loud crater]

I'm simply attributing the aspect of being able to permanently seal the radiance, which would require Purity to be an un-loosable aspect, no?

[tough jetty]

unfortunately

she was not meant to be

[tough jetty]

fair

[indigo venture]

Is it this

[near sequoia]

There is no such thing as a "wrongly attributed quality to purity" as its a construct PK made up!

[indigo venture]

hm

[split compass]

this is conflating 'being tarnished/made impure' with being infected
a pure vessel was supposed to be unable to be infected
a pure vessel was assumed to be untarnishable - WL admits this was wrong
as long as you remain pure, you won't be infected
if you are made impure, you can be infected

[sage bronze]

Ah yes an appeal to purity
Surely you can’t appeal to purity about purity

[neat kite]

changing goalposts when new info is presented

[near sequoia]

What PK says purity is is what purity is and its unobtainable because the point of the game is that an eternal kingdom is impossible

Themes and such

[sage bronze]

You can’t make ts up

[ornate summit]

heyyyy @tough jetty how are you?

[tough jetty]

good

mimawau

[neat kite]

"Surely you can’t appeal to purity about purity" and they attribute every imaginable trait to purity

[tough jetty]

Purity is the state of being pure

debate ended

[indigo venture]

I do hope this is a joke

[neat kite]

it is inaccurately conceptualized and disproved term

[tough jetty]

[near sequoia]

What

Its disproved in the sense that its impossible

Cuz that's what the game is about...

[neat kite]

saying purity is impossible because the kingdom didn't last is like saying silence is impossible because eventually someone will make a noise, lmaoo

[near sequoia]

More akin to saying ETERNAL silence is impossible because eventually someone will make a sound

Purity (or creating an eternal kingdom which is what it represents) is eternal

[hot lily]

ok so I have one question: do you believe purity can be lost once it is obtained

[neat kite]

purity as construct exists yes, but it is not absolute and timeless, which is the very point game outright disproves.

[near sequoia]

Then what is it

What does purity mean if its not absolute and timeless

[hot lily]

then the concept, whose effect if it is valid would be of an infinite duration, is necessarily false

[near sequoia]

That's kinda the defining feature

[hot lily]

because you have admitted that purity as a state of being is not in fact eternal

[near sequoia]

The goal was to contain Radiance for forever and it didn't work

The fact that it doesn't work means it was impossible and that's not an invitation to make up a new definition that just means it was a futile goal which is what the game repeats multiple times

[neat kite]

untarnished, uncontaminated

[near sequoia]

By what

[neat kite]

Star, you’re moving the goalposts

[near sequoia]

I have been consistent about this for the entire conversation

I'd invite you to scroll up and reply to a message where I didn't maintain this position

I'm sure Yak can attest to the fact that I've believed this for years

[split compass]

the quality that the pale beings identified as 'purity' was intended to entrap the Radiance, and might have worked - I think it could have, based on how the powers at work in the game operate
the pale beings mistakenly assumed that this quality could not be lost - which is what WL's words refer to - it was tarnished

[neat kite]

Serrara, your question is a loaded trap based on a false premise. You’re conflating a State of Being with Invincibility.

[hot lily]

did you not yourself assert earlier exactly that?

that purity necessarily has an effect of infinite duration, should it be obtainable and sustainable?

[near sequoia]

All vessels are capable of entrapping the Radiance for a time and they don't lose because they lost some nebulous quality Rad just escapes

[neat kite]

Serrara, you’re adding words to the question to make your trap work. The game never says purity must be sustainable or infinite to be real. That is a requirement you invented, never presented in game.

[turbid stratus]

My question is what happened to all the bugs infected after radiance got hit with a bug killer lamp to the face

[indigo venture]

Prob just fell over and die

[turbid stratus]

Shame

[indigo venture]

I mean most mind's are gone

Either vegetable state or death

That's not taking into account the already dead ones

[near sequoia]

Are we fr seperating purity from the concept of forever

[split compass]

Rad is going to escape THK because they weren't pure and so became infected
the idea being that a pure vessel would not become infected and so Rad could never escape

[neat kite]

unless you rely on false conception about purity

[indigo venture]

Yall still going huh

[near sequoia]

Yea so forever

[turbid stratus]

Are there still not remnants, when you dream nail them? Or are they sort of just loose ideas floating in the body

[near sequoia]

Which is not an attainable concept for reasons that have already been explained (but have not been addressed)

[split compass]

the assumption being made is that PK couldn't have been wrong about the quality that he identified as being able to do what he wanted and would do so forever
he was wrong about that last bit

[indigo venture]

I mean their bodies probable would show their last thoughts?

I don't get what you mean by remnants

[turbid stratus]

Like the remainings of the actual bugs, their life emotions etc.

like some still think of duty

I might have to dream nail bugs to check

[near sequoia]

Which is how he conceptualized purity

So that's what purity is and it is not attainable

Thus THK is not pure and never was

[split compass]

I think you're wrong about where the concept is coming from

it's not something PK invented wholecloth

[near sequoia]

Kinda is

[split compass]

I think PK looked at the Void, saw a particular quality it possessed, and thought 'this is it - this is the key to everything'
he attempted to acheive this quality in a vessel, succeeded, and mistakenly thought 'this thing is gonna be pure forever!'
and it turned out that was a mistaken assumption

[neat kite]

You cannot tarnish something that is already impure.

[neat kite]

thank you

[near sequoia]

This is a pretty odd distinction that is never relevant in game

[split compass]

void was like the whole central thing he was looking to for the answers

VOID. Yours is potential etc.

[near sequoia]

AC6 coral

Anyway he never separates the concept of some nebulous quality of void being able to contain Rad and that existing forever

[neat kite]

pure exists outside of pale king, pure nail is crafted to perfection for example, if anything Pure = Perfect, rather than Eternal

[split compass]

'Yours is the power opposed. Force that could deny Time.'

[near sequoia]

I'm aware that its a real word yes

[neat kite]

you are aware of words, just not what they mean?

[near sequoia]

But he uses it to refer to a specific quality and it is one specifically defined by its ability to work forever (Which it Does Not)

[split compass]

'It's supposed strength was ill-judged. It was tarnished etc.'

[turbid stratus]

I mean, void itself seems pretty pure

[near sequoia]

The vessels however were not

What quality he saw in the void is irrelevant

[split compass]

i think that depends on the vessel

i gotta go so i will leave what i think is the ultimate true way to think about the quality of purity:

Having a quality doesn't mean you can't lose it.
Having a quality that you can lose doesn't mean you will lose it. (Especially if losing said quality requires a specific factor or circumstance.)
Losing a quality doesn't mean you never had it.

Purity is like virginity - losing it doesn't mean you never had it.
(basically, someone fucked THK)

[near sequoia]

If you believe its a quality that can't be maintained forever you're also backpedaling from this

[hot lily]

thanks star

[turbid stratus]

Perhaps, nothing is really 100% efficient, some qualities or energy is always lost (dunno if that applies in a magical bug world)

if you made the vessels from steel Im sure they'd work though

[neat kite]

Star, you’re literally saying that if a goal isn't reached, the starting state never existed. That’s not how time, language, or logic works.

[near sequoia]

Can you reply to a message here I said that

[split compass]

nope, because Hallownest did'nt last forever - the possbility that a PV might have fixed things in the start doesn't change that it can't help now, any more than the fact that a Lord of Shades existing does

[hot lily]

the lifespan of Hallownest as a kingdom fell upon the success of THK

PK literally says this

[near sequoia]

You and Yak keep yapping about some "Losing purity doesn't mean you never had it" but this is completely irrelevant to the point and I've clarified this multiple times and its ultimately irrelevant to the point of a vessel containing the Radiance forever being impossible

[neat kite]

right here you and you said pure = eternal somewhere else, also If the Vessel was never pure, then there was simply nothing to tarnish.

[near sequoia]

You said PK "mistakenly thought 'this thing is gonna be pure forever!" which would mean he had no chance of succeeding while previously stating that Hallownest failed because of PK's personal error

[turbid stratus]

I've heard a theory at some point, that is possibly supported by the cutscene ||at the end of path of pain|| stating that THK became impure due to bonding with PK, thus developing emotions, ruining his purity and somewhat filling the void

[neat kite]

dude... "Losing purity doesn't mean you never had it" was basically start of conversation

[near sequoia]

Yup pure does mean eternal but that's not what you and yak were waffling about

[near sequoia]

If you actually go back and read my messages I've only ever refuted the idea that White Lady was saying PV was pure previously

You should argue against me based on what I say not what you have decided the argument is about

But if you're interesed purity being immutable is the natural conclusion of it being an eternal quality yes

[turbid stratus]

Given that Radiance pulls on the dreams and hopes off bugs to take control, like with traitor lord, its possible that the Radiance simply saw that weak spot and exploited it to infect THK

the only reason THK didnt work, by that theory, was because he lost purity before entering the black egg, had he not lost it, the plan might've worked

[neat kite]

lol, i was having discussion before you were here, and that's what i was talking about, you can't bring new point and say old one is irrelevant, given than you aren't arbiter

[near sequoia]

Then you don't understand how conversations work mate

Someone said something wrong I said I thought it was wrong and then we started discussing that

That is usually how corrections work

[neat kite]

do you think White Lady lied about Pure Vessel being tarnished?? if not then what is narrative weight of Path of Pain showing us PK and PV bonding(strongly implying idea instilled)?

[neat kite]

do you have direct source for this in-game?

[split compass]

except that the reason it wasn't pure forever is because of a thing that he did - it would have stayed pure if he hadn't done that thing
having a quality you can lose doesn't mean you will lose it - especially if losing it requires a particular thing to happen and you avoid that thing
(assuming that PK was responsible for the idea instilled - I lean on thinking that the pale beings were)
but he failed - maybe it was impossible for him to ever make it work

[near sequoia]

I do not think WL is lying I just don't think those words mean what you think they mean and I've already explained why so you can scroll up there

Path of Pain doesn't hold "narrative weight" its a 3 second cutscene behind an optional platforming challenge you need to look up to find only added by DLC that just characterizes PK and THK by showing a bond between them

[near sequoia]

Eh sure it wasn't a backpedal but I disagree with this for thematic reasons and just a basic reading of WL's dialogue

[turbid stratus]

Seems like a vital piece of lore given the place its set in, the difficulty, entire story of hk

[dense sonnet]

This is just wrong it doesn’t characterize THK or imply THK reciprocated that bond it’s PK’s memory holy shit

Purity discussions in the big 26 🥀

[neat kite]

then what does tarnished mean?? saying that adjectives lose irl meaning in fantasy lore is unreliable and weak argument

[near sequoia]

we still on this

[split compass]

it wasn't meant as one certainly

[near sequoia]

THK obviously reciprocated bro cope and seethe

[neat kite]

what else is there to discuss??

[near sequoia]

But its largely about PK yes

[neat kite]

bring a 'better' topic

[near sequoia]

MIO lore

[split compass]

no spoilers

(its still on my list)

[near sequoia]

fine

[split compass]

don't tell me the secret true origins of Robot Hair

[neat kite]

let's go debate on mio-lore in this server- oh, wait

[near sequoia]

The place its set in is an optional platforming challenge?

[dense sonnet]

“I have nothing of value to discuss so I’m going to lobotomize myself and instead discuss something that’s already been done to death”

[sage bronze]

ahem so here's why noden was right actually

[hot lily]

Kirb can you not be so abrasive pls

[dense sonnet]

Purity should never have been a thing people just can’t read

[near sequoia]

spoiler ts bro

[hot lily]

I get it's your bit but it's annoying at this point

[dense sonnet]

Minimodding

Don’t care

[hot lily]

🥀

[near sequoia]

Kirb can you try holding more kindness in your heart twin ❤️‍🩹

[dense sonnet]

Yes twin 🥺

[neat kite]

“I have nothing of value to contribute so I’m going to lobotomize myself and instead judge something just because already has been done to death”

[near sequoia]

I believe it means THK getting "infected" by the Radiance but does it matter

[dense sonnet]

Well the lobotomy part refers to the fact that in order to discuss purity at all you have to lack basic literacy skills

[dense sonnet]

It probably doesn’t refer to that but no it doesn’t matter

[turbid stratus]

In white palace, seemingly where PK hid in shame from failure, possibly. It could be possible he hid his greatest shame and mistake as best as he could.

[near sequoia]

You can't deny calling Rad the idea instilled would be tuff

[dense sonnet]

WL tells us that tarnishing is evidence that THK isn’t (and never was) pure

[near sequoia]

But it could also refer to THK wanting to save the kingdom or wtv

[dense sonnet]

It could be Rad it could be PoP cutscene it could be any number of things

[neat kite]

Well the lobotomy part refers to the fact that in order to judge others for interests you have to lack basic literacy skills

[dense sonnet]

It literally doesn’t matter the whole point is that it doesn’t matter

[split compass]

wait 'til you hear my incredible theory that the Steel Masters are also pure Void entities

possibly ancient vessels

[near sequoia]

I agree that he held some shame over the whole ordeal but this is just added characterization like I said rather than some big narrative moment

[split compass]

that their minds are only Void, lacking Essence, like the Knight

[near sequoia]

The actual memory he preserved too

[dense sonnet]

This literally makes no sense but go off bestie

[split compass]

and this is why Jinn thinks they 'do not seek order' and have 'minds others' and are 'more complete' like TK

[dense sonnet]

I mean if you want to interpret it as being the moment PK realized THK wasn’t pure that’s also fine

It really isn’t very important

[turbid stratus]

Nothing is important

[neat kite]

it does because your inability to meaningfully contribute to something often results in hostility from you

[turbid stratus]

let's all be depressed nihilists and burn the world!

[near sequoia]

The claim was that it made THK impure or wtv

[split compass]

it don't matter
(none of this matters)

[turbid stratus]

Its just a game guys pack it up

[dense sonnet]

When I say “it’s not very important” I mean it has little to no narrative significance but you can choose to be reductive about shit if that makes your life easier

[neat kite]

why was impure referred to as tarnished? if they were never pure?

[neat kite]

not what i was referring to

[near sequoia]

None of it matters cuz its not even a good story and TC probably forgot what they actually meant by it

appeal to nature!

[turbid stratus]

I mean, TC might have left the lore open and loose-threaded on purpose as it's a fire that will keep on burning

[near sequoia]

FNAF and its consequences

[sage bronze]

gotta be undertale's fault somehow

[near sequoia]

ALL respawning is canon

I don't think HK is that unclear where it matters though

[dense sonnet]

That’s not what tarnishing refers to
“Its supposed strength was ill-judged (as) it was tarnished by an idea instilled”
From this sentence you can hopefully understand that WL is identifying the “idea instilled” as the cause of THK’s “tarnishing”, which she cites as the reason its “supposed strength” was “ill-judged
If it were pure in the first instance and later rendered impure then its actual strength would have been aptly judged but clearly that is not what she says
The notion of a pure vessel being tarnished also makes no sense if you think about it for any more than five seconds but one would hope this dialogue is explicit enough to spare me from having that conversation

[sage bronze]

it's not but it gets a reputation for being super opaque because of a certain trait of hk fans

[near sequoia]

as always its miyazaki's fault

[turbid stratus]

It depends on what you think matters, for example someone might focus on the mechanics of the game while someone might focus on steel soul run

[dense sonnet]

Thank you Sakurai

[sage bronze]

didn't even make the best dark souls 💔

[dense sonnet]

Yeah that was all Mr. Kojima

[near sequoia]

nor is he the best writer named miyazaki

[dense sonnet]

TRUE

[sage bronze]

miyazaki should've gotten miyazaki to write elden ring there would be more cool airships

[turbid stratus]

That does make a lot of sense, but, she does also state that the knight is "free from these blemishes" implying he is pure

[neat kite]

'it doesn't matter', right?

[near sequoia]

tuff

[dense sonnet]

so tuff

[dense sonnet]

She admits she’s wrong about that later

[near sequoia]

Yes that is correct

She's in denial about Hallownest being dead n stuff

[sage bronze]

which she then walks back because she realizes she can't actually tell the difference

[neat kite]

but what makes knight pure if pure vessel was never pure?

[dense sonnet]

Well more accurately she admits that she has no way of determining purity

But TK isn’t pure we know this

[neat kite]

because it is made up concept, or rather unsubstantiated concept and mistaken to be absolute in nature

[dense sonnet]

I mean purity would have to be absolute in nature

It is a made up concept and is probably impossible, or at the very least impossible to accomplish via the methods PK utilized

But that’s entirely besides the point

PK/WL were wrong about purity existing that’s different to being wrong about the definition of it

[turbid stratus]

Does she? I couldn't find the dialouge for it

[dense sonnet]

Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.

[hot lily]

She first says:
"But you. You are free of such blemishes. You could contain that thing inside"
only to later say (after TK gets Void Heart) what Kirb quoted

[neat kite]

purity they envisioned is a failed concept

[turbid stratus]

Doesnt that imply that the knight is infact pure?

as it doesnt feel anything

[sage bronze]

no

she's realizing that it probably does she just can't sense it

[neat kite]

her senses are unreliable

[sage bronze]

whole quote kirb

the truly it was transformed bit is relevant

[dense sonnet]

Sigh

That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now.

She’s not saying “I absolutely cannot sense it” she’s saying “if it does I’d have no way to tell”

[hot lily]

WL is saying that she cannot make a judgment; the Knight is of indeterminate purity, in her opinion

[sage bronze]

and she's saying it in a context that at least heavily implies it does what with being transformed by revelations

[neat kite]

that's why people hate Sealed Siblings ending, wasting void heart for nothing

[dense sonnet]

The reason Sealed Siblings exists is to demonstrate that TK still has the freedom to choose

[near sequoia]

why would TK feel hate WL is stupid asf

[dense sonnet]

I mean

[sage bronze]

I mean

[neat kite]

options just happened to be infinite diarrhea or sunshine and rainbows

[near sequoia]

maybe it overheard a certain convo

[sage bronze]

"does it hate me for the plan" isn't like an altogether unreasonable thing to entertain lol

[dense sonnet]

Neither option is good and the better option poses a far more significant risk

[near sequoia]

TK would understand after VH and probably has boundless love for its parents (especially its father)

[dense sonnet]

There are narrative reasons why TK would want to do SeSi, it’s also the ending where it fulfills the purpose it was designed for and the one WL recommends

[neat kite]

are there "good" options in your opinion, because i compared it relatively to each other

[neat kite]

Hollow Knight ending does that too, though

[dense sonnet]

It doesn’t get a choice there

[hot lily]

without Void Heart there is no alternative

the entire point of Void Heart is that it allows for an alternative to exist

[neat kite]

i am aware, point is Sealed Siblings is downgrade from DNM and HK Endings

[hot lily]

i mean whatever ending is "good or bad" is besides the point

[sage bronze]

I mean it's a relevant narrative consideration

thk and ss being unsatisfying is deliberate

[dense sonnet]

Yeah

[neat kite]

i mean point is Sealed Siblings is worst ending, nothing wrong with acknowledging it, kind of like ||Twisted Child in Silksong||

[dense sonnet]

“Hating” it for being the “worst” ending is kind of silly when that’s the entire point of it also EtV exists lmao

[near sequoia]

Bad ending vs Bad ending

[dense sonnet]

Yeah

[neat kite]

i mean, i don't hate it, but every ending is bound to have hate

[sage bronze]

good bad endings rock

[neat kite]

everything on internet is bound to have hate and people are bound to have preference

[dense sonnet]

e33 but if you ask an e33 fan a lot of them will have a hard time telling you which ending is the bad one

[sage bronze]

well yeah media literacy is six feet under

[neat kite]

||silksong is no different, but at least hornet survives in one(and doesn't become evil)||

some endings have 'at least' factor, some just suck

[dense sonnet]

SS also has a very obvious good ending lol

[near sequoia]

I did ||Maelle but I don't know if that was the right choice lowk why do I have to replay the game to get the other ending 💔 ||

[timber snow]

||weaver queen is like unambiguously bad imo, but maelles ending has just enough roses thrown over it to make the red flags blend in||

[neat kite]

||every single one has new problem, even last act has cost of getting there which causes destruction||

[sage bronze]

you can roll back your save but yeah it could've been done in a less player hostile way lol

[near sequoia]

||unpaint me|| 🗣️

[sage bronze]

also uh that is the bad ending 100%

[dense sonnet]

Did you delete your save

[neat kite]

what is ||Maelle||

[sage bronze]

I knew it would be the bad ending so I did that one first but I was not ready

[timber snow]

expedition 33 character

[near sequoia]

Yeah it was great

[neat kite]

aaah, i get it

[dense sonnet]

That’s why I said it was a good bad ending

[near sequoia]

||Choosing between Maelle and Verso is stupid though cuz who tf wants to play as Verso over 100k damage dealer ||

[sage bronze]

it's a great bad ending very immersive cool that it gives the player the chance to make the same mistake the characters make

[timber snow]

clearly you didn’t build him right

[near sequoia]

Yeah she carried me through everything

[neat kite]

should i play ||MIO||, is it a good game?

[near sequoia]

MIO is fantastic

[neat kite]

what genre is it, will i like it? i liked HK, SS, Bo : path of teal lotus

[near sequoia]

Metroidvania so yes

[dense sonnet]

I mean I’m not going to sit here and say he’s better but they are both very good and also she can do way more damage than that

[timber snow]

if you like HK you’ll like mio

[near sequoia]

Its kinda like SS if it was good

[neat kite]

Damn

[sage bronze]

he's like the third best character

[timber snow]

who’s 2nd

[sage bronze]

sciel

[timber snow]

never used her honestly

[dense sonnet]

Every character is good

[neat kite]

I want to play rain world too

[sage bronze]

many such cases

[near sequoia]

was gonna ask who tf was ember

[sage bronze]

you know who ember is

[near sequoia]

true

[dense sonnet]

So true

[sage bronze]

those tutorial scenes hit harder on a second playthrough huh

[dense sonnet]

Maybe I should do one of those

[neat kite]

What are great game recommendations? Does anyone like Deltarune and why do Silksong and hk fans make fun of it

[timber snow]

deltarune is peak
it’s just funny to make fun of undertale

[near sequoia]

Deltarune is good but its no Expedition 33 (the best rpg EVER made)

[neat kite]

I mean you can say that about anything, I meant specifically downgrade it

[dense sonnet]

I mean no Monster Hunter Stories 3 exists

[sage bronze]

idk if I could put e33 above xc3 ngl

[dense sonnet]

I haven’t touched that game in a long time but I have to glaze it

[near sequoia]

Is it that good I have it but haven't really dived into it

[dense sonnet]

Oh right XC3

lol

[sage bronze]

royal monsters soon 🙏

[dense sonnet]

It is very good you should play it

[neat kite]

Am I only one who sees similarities between hollow knight and one shot

[loud crater]

What was going on?

[loud crater]

Probably not, but id imagine youre in a minority there.

[ruby jay]

????

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're talking about

[meager cairn]

Do you think they have regular worms in the world of HK? Or just Wyrms?

[loud crater]

Maybe.

Goams?

[meager cairn]

Aren't they more centipedes or millipedes?

[loud crater]

I think youre thinking if the ones from Deepnest.

[meager cairn]

Oh, the things in crossroads?

[near sequoia]

Flukes are described as wormlike

[loud crater]

Yeah.

[near sequoia]

silksong ||Groms and Shadow Creepers are also described as worms||

[meager cairn]

oh, well, I guess that settles that

[tough jetty]

what was the knight and quirrel doin in the wastelands

also where is the moon??????

[split compass]

wanderin'

[split compass]

there isn't one

[tough jetty]

oh so is that just 4th wall

casual mr mushroom stuff

he mentioned the moon and i got confused

[split compass]

oh, does he?

well, I hope so

yuck

[tough jetty]

...I haven't seen her, no. I'm sure you'll remember where you left her eventually.
Trust the moon, or yourself. Or trust her. You need to trust something, that's my point.
Hmm? No, not him. No. Absolutely not.
...Oh. Excuse me.

• Mr Mushroom, Fog Canyon

[split compass]

gross

I hope TC does another dialogue revision to remove that

[tough jetty]

i aint seen a damn moon

[split compass]

like how they removed mention of days

[tough jetty]

?

[split compass]

it's true

[tough jetty]

did Monday make a cameo or smth

[split compass]

they took out mentions of conventional timing - references to days, years, etc.

replaced 'years' with 'an age' or similar

[tough jetty]

passing of the age?

[split compass]

there used to be a line like 'the infection has been here for years' that was switched to 'the infection has been here for ages'

any reference that might suggest an ordinary world like Earth, with days and years and other time-keeping based on rotation, a sun, etc.

[tough jetty]

the wiki might be wrong

i'll check

[split compass]

i don't think they updated everything, it was a pretty recent change funnily enough

[tough jetty]

alright how do i get cornifer to leave

[humble current]

He goes home if you get all the maps or kill all three dreamers

[tough jetty]

i aint got time for that

mr mushroom needs to be met

[humble current]

Oh he doesn't appear until you've kill the dreamers anyway lol

[tough jetty]

all?

[humble current]

All three

[torn gulch]

who's stronger pure vessel or nkg? (lore wise)

[tough jetty]

why am i red

what

huh

jksahdjkasdhas

????

???

tf is happening

[split compass]

i'm blue dabba dee dabba die

i can see your text and it's white, if that helps

you might be having a weird connection issue or something

[torn gulch]

but why not nkg?

[tough jetty]

this is subjective bro

[brisk venture]

Pv

[hot lily]

we don't know

[loud crater]

Maybe NKG since its the Avatar of the Nightmare Heart, but we have no way of knowing.

[brisk venture]

I'd say a vessel made for containing the radiance would be stronger than the vessel of the nightmare heart

[loud crater]

Technically Grimm is the Nightmare Heart.

[split compass]

i believe in pv

[ebon patio]

theres nothing that says the radiance is higher than the nightmare heart

other than each of their feats;;

[charred basin]

Is there any concensus on how bugs in Hallownest measured time

[woeful oyster]

Why do you wake up the dreamers?.....

[charred basin]

Because they don't have the sun

[woeful oyster]

Bugs have an internal circadian rythm no?

Even here in the real world they dont need the sun

[split compass]

no - in fact recently references to years were replaced with generic terms like 'ages' or 'long ago'

[charred basin]

What about something like days or weeks, or even hours?

[split compass]

to enter the Black Egg - they create a seal on it that only lifts when they are destroyed

[split compass]

nope, all removed - there's some in Silksong, related to musical terms, but I don't think any in Hallownest are specified

any reference that might suggest an ordinary world like Earth, with days and years and other time-keeping based on rotation, a sun, etc.

[charred basin]

Yeah, I thought so

I'm asking because I'm running a HK ttrpg game so I'll just headcannon that a day is what a Wyrm's Circadian Rhythm works on or soemthing, idk how circadian rhythms work, the wyrm told them about days and stuff

[split compass]

cool, cool

I was trying to think of something like the length of time it takes a candle to burn down, though I can't recall how common candles are

maybe a small bug that chirps in a regular fashion? like a living clock - they use living bugs for light (lumafly)

quarter to Five Chirps

oop, it's tomorrow

speaking of time

[woeful oyster]

Thank you

[scenic surge]

Deltarune and undertale are amazing

[vivid folio]

yo

bro's not lying go play deltarune chat

[fervent kestrel]

What actually was the mask Monomon have Quirrel? Was it her face that she grew back or something? Or just a mask made to look like her and enchanted by her

Hornet calls it a mask

[crystal brook]

the latter option

probably

[haughty yoke]

whats the lore behind no eyes

[lofty pendant]

from what I remember It was like

she blinded herself cuz she had to kill her kids for a reason I forgot abt

mb that I’m not a nerd but that’s like

All I remember

[fervent kestrel]

Did Quirrel have his memories while he was outside Hallownest and only lost them once he returned? Or did he lose them as soon as he left and again when he came back?

Or did he just have constant amnesia while outside

[loud crater]

I think he lost them when he left.

The Mask would have guarded his mind but not his memories iirc.

[vivid mesa]

is the hk lore any good?

[scenic surge]

yeah it's amazing

why do you ask?

you should get a good chunk of it by playing the game

[vivid mesa]

i never understood anything even though i never skipped the dialogue of npcs

[tacit dawn]

yes

[loud crater]

Very much so yes.

[old sentinel]

Yeah that is understandable

Try finding a good lore video

A long one

[vivid mesa]

recommend me one that’s not too complicated

[old sentinel]

Oh idk I figured it out from dialogue and from here

[thorny moth]

Mossbag one probably

[split compass]

mossbag's is the most often recommended

there's also some from Skrionn and Lorebarians that take a more somber and serious tone than mossbag, which I appreciate

no video is perfect, but they'll give you the basics of the story and setting

[scenic surge]

why do people need lore videos

I don't get it

Like personally when I played hollow knight I got most of the stuff down by just playing the game

and the rest figured out by engaging in the community

[solid abyss]

it's faster

[pure inlet]

Theres a lot that can be missed tbf

[neat kite]

that is true, that's why i watched it, only reason and i like speculation

[gritty void]

Lowk I never understood hk lore from the actual game😭🙏

I had to watch vids lol

[potent venture]

wait what how am i the hollow knight if i already fought the hollow knight

im lost lmao

[loud crater]

You arent.

[scenic surge]

you aren't

You never were

[potent venture]

uhm what

im REALLY lost now

[scenic surge]

what gave you the idea you were the hollow knight

[potent venture]

i "read" my past

and it said that im the hollow knight

[loud crater]

The Abyss Climb section?

[potent venture]

yep

[loud crater]

It wasnt talking to you.

[scenic surge]

it wasn't talking to you

[potent venture]

what

how

[scenic surge]

grimm literally states you're a discarded vessel

[scenic surge]

Yes horf I know I'm slow 😔

[loud crater]

There was another Vessel that made it to the top.

[scenic surge]

you literally see the hollow knight next to the pale king at the top

[scenic surge]

damn it

[loud crater]

That is The Hollow Knight.

[potent venture]

yes the one i fought

[scenic surge]

yeah and the pale king is talking to them

[loud crater]

They're the Hollow Knight.

[potent venture]

then who am i or will i find that out later?

[scenic surge]

you're just a discarded vessel

you already found out what you are

you're a failed vessel

that's it

well okay saying that's it isn't true

but you are just a discarded and failed vessel

that then makes their own path

and becomes something greater

[loud crater]

Technically you can become the Hollow Knight by taking its place in two of the endings.

[potent venture]

alr thanks

[hard willow]

yeah

[neat kite]

had to share this gold from twitter

art by @MiquellaDArt on Twitter

i don't recognize blonde one

[split compass]

miquella, from Elden Ring

artist is a fan, clearly

[neat kite]

thank you

[neat kite]

i love White Diamond and Grand Mother Silk similarities due to how cast-oriented they are as figures

[hot lily]

normally i'd mod ping over this but in GMS' case it's literally true

[neat kite]

i shared in here on accident, sorry

i meant to share it in sk-lore

[proven umbra]

does team cherry consider jellyfish to be bugs

[split compass]

the bugs of the sea

'bugs' seems to be used in-game often as a catch-all term, like 'mortals'

though not all creatures are considered bugs

[fair ice]

yo

anyone online?

what do you guys think'd have happened if the radiance was a pale being?
How'd it have affected the story?

and whats with the godhome business?

[near sequoia]

So long as she still had all her dream powers very little would've changed if she had control over soul imo

[fair ice]

do all pale beings have foresight? or is it just the pale king

[near sequoia]

Just the Pale King

Its said to be a trait of wyrms by Bardoon

[fair ice]

then nothing'd have changed

ok then... whats with the godhome stuff?

they wish to ascend...

to gain more power

but why dont we see any other creatures aside from the ones in hallownest

surely they'd have traversed more lands

[near sequoia]

They're from a place called the "land of storms" but their old gods died so they went on a journey to find new gods and the leftover power from the (dead) Pale King drew them to Hallownest

[fair ice]

so hallownest was their first land?

[near sequoia]

Yeah

[fair ice]

hmm good to know

so far this server has answered most of the lore questions i have abt the game

im so grateful to all its members

[tough jetty]

if the vessels had (or were supposed to have) no mind tf was the radiance gonna be sealed in
time out?

[signal marlin]

they werent supposed to have no mind

[rose sparrow]

"The champion's call, the grove of purity THE BATTLE OF THE BLACK WYRM... I remember it all. I will carry these glories with me... until we meet again"

What is the Black Wyrm?

It's just Pale King but evil?

There's only this one mention of him in the entire game, and also the Colosseum of Fools... which is likely the shell of this black Wyrm

[signal marlin]

unknown

[rose sparrow]

In certain Silksong dialogues and itens, the pale king is referred to as Pale/White Wyrm, they could simply call the king a Wyrm without needing to mention the color... unless there are other types of wyrms... a wyrm the color of a beautiful guarana soda... or the color of a frog?

[signal marlin]

its not knowable either

[signal marlin]

it isnt "likely the shell of this black wyrm"

[rose sparrow]

It would be great if he were mentioned again, he seems like something important...

Perhaps what came out of him was the foolish king? We'll never know...

wait...

For him to be the dead King, sitting on his throne in the Colosseum of Fools, is actually quite something.

[rose sparrow]

To me it looks a lot like a Wyrm Or something similar, perhaps, black Wyrms have a different and modified body, the fact that I'm using Google Translate to speak in English will also make some parts of what I say sound strange.

[signal marlin]

it really doesnt look like what youd expect a wyrm to look like and the latter is just speculation

[rose sparrow]

For me, a Wyrm is usually what you find after fighting Hornet Sentinel, maybe black Wyrms are deformed, but all of this is just speculation and won't lead to anything until Team Cherry pulls a few strings and adds a couple more sentences with this black Wyrm.

[pure inlet]

Not saying it’s definitely not true

But Bardoon the big caterpillar who talks all about Wyrms doesn’t mention it and he lives pretty close

[split compass]

Ellina from the Wanderer's Journal also identifies the cast-off shell as a Wyrm, while describing the colosseum as simple a large bug

[fierce socket]

I don't fully understand. Why do dreamers share their "Dream Realm" design with the Radiance's one? Yes, they are pretty releated with each other, but why?

[scenic surge]

there aren't multiple dream realms

there's one dream realm

[timber snow]

well yes but they’re asking why the dreamers background is specifically literally Rads background

it’s to do with them being seals, the background gets lighter and lighter as Rad gets closer to being freed
they aren’t literally in the same little “pocket” as Rad but it’s more a representation

[fierce socket]

Yesss

Thank uu

[rose sparrow]

I never got around to reading that... it's quite expensive...

[fading crane]

So it's a single plane divided into several?

The Seer say "a dream is endless"
"a dream" as if there were several dreams

[sand stump]

Well its a single plane but it has subdivisions yeah
All are interconnected and you can from 1 dream to another with the right things.

I'd say that dreams that have to do with eachother(like the Dreamers and the Radiance fight), would have similar, if not identical surroudnings

[scenic surge]

well yes

[fading crane]

[fading crane]

[sand stump]

This is how I see it, I'm actually not sure if its fully canon but I think it is

[scenic surge]

consider the fact that there's a whole subspace in the dream realm

that the pale king himself created

out of his own essence

[obtuse terrace]

whys there no stag station in the crystal peaks

[fading crane]

Unn, the Heart, Soul Tyrant

Etc.

[scenic surge]

soul tyrant doesn't have one?

[scenic surge]

Unn has green essence from which she dreamed up the mosskin

the nightmare heart is the ruler of the nightmare realm

so that's not exactly a solid comparison

[fading crane]

He's dream realm is more purple than others

[scenic surge]

it's not his own essence

[fading crane]

Oh, ok, I see

[fading crane]

White Lady?

Lifeblood God?

[scenic surge]

it's the same essence

[fading crane]

Thanks

[scenic surge]

as you can see

[fading crane]

Yeah, at the same

[scenic surge]

those yeah

[scenic surge]

white lady does technically have her own essence but she doesn't do anything

unlike unn or the pale king

[fading crane]

I have a "thread" talking about the essence
It's not exactly one, it's more of a compilation, can I share it here?

[scenic surge]

sure I suppose

[fading crane]

Ok

Essence

Description: precious fragments of light that dreams are made

[fading crane]

Nightmare Essence: This is the essence that the Grimm Troupe works with. We can see it in the Nightmare Realm.

[fading crane]

Yellow Essence: is the "standar" essence. That appear in the dream realm

[fading crane]

Green Essence: It appears for the first and only time in the Pantheon of Hallownest

[fading crane]

Blue Essence: It appears both in the Godhome's lifeblood room and in the lifeblood dream realm located in the Abyss.

[fading crane]

Purple Essence: I don't know if it's canon or not, but it appears in the Hidden Dreams menu.

[scenic surge]

the pale kings white essence is seprate to the white ladies

you can see this by the fact the pks is pure pale wwhite

whilst the white ladies is a white pink

[fading crane]

Pale Essence: appear in White Palace and the Panteon of Hallownest

[fading crane]

Pale Pink Essence: appear in Panteon of Hallownest (White Lady)

[sudden aurora]

Yall know how the nail we start with is like trash and flimsy?

How come it never breaks

[turbid stratus]

Do you think the nailmasters or sly are comparatively good enough to take on the hollow knight or any of the 7 knights?

[turbid stratus]

Its bad, but its not made out of wood

[scenic surge]

7?

there's 5

[turbid stratus]

You dont know about the other two? ( )

[scenic surge]

we got Isma, Ze'mer, Hegemol, Ogrim, Dryaa

And most mortals would get destroyed by Mighty hegemol

With exceptions like Vespa, the old hearts

[turbid stratus]

I imagine its not that its flimsy or something, but that its just bad quality, impure and maybe jagged/unsharpened

[scenic surge]

Great nailsage sly on the otherhand would probably beat ogrim

[sudden aurora]

I see

[turbid stratus]

Very interesting, I dont really know about most of the knights but this helped me get the picture

[scenic surge]

as it's Ogrim

[sudden aurora]

But like we hit a bunch of rocks and random walls, and it's a cracked stone nail

So wouldn't it like Crack or break at some point

If we never upgrade it

[scenic surge]

life ender doesn't break

[sudden aurora]

Lol

[scenic surge]

even though it's made out of wood

[turbid stratus]

It's SHELLWOOD, mind you

very powerful

more powerful than even pure nail!

[scenic surge]

so It's safe to say our nail is fine

[scenic surge]

yup totally

[turbid stratus]

You wouldn't doubt Zote, the mighty, the enchanting, would you?

[scenic surge]

of course not

it's not like he got stuck in a massive web or anything

[turbid stratus]

He was right where he wanted to be

it was part of his plan

[digital snow]

Guys rq I have a doubt
What is lifeblood
Like I saw in sk it's kinda like the infection but wbt hk?

[turbid stratus]

Realistically it'd break if we hit anything metal, but for gameplay reasons

it doesnt

[sudden aurora]

Yeah

[turbid stratus]

Based off of a video I saw, with minimal memory retention, fair warning, I heard it is like the infection indeed, but it just doesnt attempt to take over any bugs

[scenic surge]

have you played hollow knight

or have extensive knowledge on the first game

[turbid stratus]

nor does it seen to care about having believers or a tribe

[digital snow]

I finished it just a while ago actually

[scenic surge]

Originally in hollow knight it was presented as a heretical and taboo substance that gave health benefits when consumed

[digital snow]

But in sk it takes over a region I think
I just got sk a few Days ago so I haven even finished like the second boss

[scenic surge]

in silksong they went on to make lifeblood be a infection rip off

[digital snow]

If the lifeblood in hollowness didn't try and consume the bugs why did it do that in pharloom?

[turbid stratus]

Competition

[digital snow]

Also where did it even start in hallownest?
I think pharloom had a bug that made it but idk if there is one in hallownest

[digital snow]

Lol

[turbid stratus]

lifeblood is weaker than radiance, if I were them I wouldnt risk fighting either Radiance or Pale king over territory

[digital snow]

But it's stronger than silk?

[turbid stratus]

I

didnt play sk nor know much about

also the mods might butcher you for talking about it

so be careful

[digital snow]

What

Aren't the 2 games connected?

[turbid stratus]

Oh, actually they might let it pass here

yeah

I dont know I think it isnt allowed in hk-discussion

[digital snow]

I'm pretty sure the bugs of hk return in sk too

Like void and lifeblood

Even tho they ain't bugs

[turbid stratus]

Well, I wouldn't know

my pc wouldnt handle sk

[digital snow]

I'm pretty sure they're really simmilar tho

Hk gets my pc up to 70 degrees and sk gets it to around 75

[turbid stratus]

Well, hk makes my gpu usage 90%

[devout mesa]

we need a globalised lore channel

[loud crater]

#sk-lore is kinda that.

[turbid stratus]

what if someone played sk and not hk?

[devout mesa]

nvm both allow the other

[wicked vessel]

HK lore is Sk spoiler free

[devout mesa]

for some reason i skipped some of it

[wicked vessel]

That's like saying "What if I read the third book but not the first book?".

[turbid stratus]

People are very different

[loud crater]

On two separate occasions i read a sequel before the original.

[wicked vessel]

And? It's still your fault if you've been spoiled due to this.

[loud crater]

I did it on accident. People could in theory do the same with Silksong.

[wicked vessel]

Absolutely, I'm just saying that it isn't really an issue with the channel.

[loud crater]

Yeah, just saying tho.

[solid abyss]

i mean it kind of is an issue with sk lore if you want to avoid spoiling hollow knight

i think the difference is that hollow knight is almost a decade old

im sure in 10 years we wont be too worried about spoiling ss either

[pure inlet]

People still get angry if you spoil citizen kane

[scenic surge]

what

[near sequoia]

I read Wanderer's Journal 2 before Wanderer's Journal 1

[tawdry flax]

💀

[lucid turret]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-george-meme-shock-no-gif-6106505422079660447

[turbid stratus]

Where doth one read such a thing?

[tough jetty]

2?

[near sequoia]

when Ellina visits the weavers homeland

[tough jetty]

where buy

[loud crater]

Notascam.org.gov

[humble current]

It's not real 🥀

[humble current]

.gov?? 😭

[split compass]

that's why I made my own

(I do hope for a real one - I'll see how it holds up to mine)

[loud crater]

Tbh i would have made the tablet thing in the middle the music note things instead of the abyss tablet design.

[split compass]

i made it before it came out, so i wasn't spoiled on tablet design yet

[tough jetty]

so it isn't real

[long arch]

Holy

Will you write for that

That’d be so cool dude 😭

[split compass]

afraid not - the journal for the first game wasn't released until after all the DLC, so hopefully Silksong will get one eventually, but it might be a bit of a wait

[split compass]

I actually did fill it! I would sketch during my first playthrough, adding new pages as I played
you can view it online in fact, I linked it in the art channel
#hk-art-gallery message

[long arch]

The journal in full would be lovely 🥹

Silksong community is the most creative one yet

[obsidian musk]

that’s actual awesome

[fading crane]

I need it

[indigo venture]

Damn that-s beautiful

Very good Job Yak

[long arch]

Change your name to Goated Yak

[split compass]

I'll bootleg some copies and sell them for an exorbitant price

[oak basin]

I want to buy it

[obtuse terrace]

why didnt the radiance just not accept thr knights challenge

[indigo venture]

They really wanted to Kill TK

[fossil wren]

I have a lot of questions, I saw a quick wrap of the lore after

so,

||- why do mobs attack me, are they just insects that lost their intelligence after the pale king ran away? Not the corrupt ones that are orange. Or are they just territorial so they're attacking an intruder.

• how did the Pale king die
• did the dreamers really need to sacrifice themselves too? For seal?
• who are the traitors? I saw some hints of those in a few places||

[indigo stone]

1)they're jus territorial like mantises and bees and the weavers ur basically an intruder infront of them
2)not defined nor given a reason
3) they were sentient at that time and weren't taken by the infection and also they willed to volunteer so the pale king took them cuz they're mind was strong to not get infected
4)jus play ahead in a place called queens gardens if you've been there than it's js that a part of the mantis tribe INTENTIONAlly fell for the infection to praise radiance and the other mantises kicked them out for that

[split compass]

The disappearance of the King did not cause bugs to lose their intelligence - the magic the King blessed Hallownest with is still in effect.

The corruption you've noticed is an Infection that makes bugs extra hostile, and can even reanimate the dead who then act on instinct.

Pretty much everything you encounter is Infected - this is why many creatures may seem to have lost higher thought.

[fossil wren]

I see tyvm, yeah I've been there

[fossil wren]

oh

okay so that's why some insects can speak, collect etc

[fossil wren]

ohh okay

[hallow solstice]

mr mushroom has a parallel to the king in yellow: he's beyond strength

because he's invincible

[plush widget]

Is this some sort of tram thing what is this ?

[acoustic nexus]

I think so since the crossroads are supposed to act like a travel hub if im not wrong

[hard willow]

wait

why can the knight see specific dead people

dying with regrets right

like if you died and really wanted to fix something you became a whatever

[hot lily]

what do you mean

[hard willow]

the warrior spirits

and others

spirits

[dense valley]

what's the lore on the mushroom guy

like, where'd he come from?

what's his purpose?

[ebon patio]

he only comes to witness the fall of kingdoms

pretty much it

[dense valley]

So he's just some guy?

[ebon patio]

well seeing that he can also fly super fast hes not just some ordinary mushroom

[loud crater]

He's Master Herald.

[dense valley]

I guess he does seem like a fun guy

you see what I did there?

[arctic jewel]

im pretty sure the dead turn to shades only if they r a vessel

like the knight

or hornet

[hard willow]

i aint talking about shades

specifically the spirits

you can see after getting dreamnail

[arctic jewel]

oh

[trim trellis]

Hornet isnt a vessel

[indigo venture]

No

[indigo venture]

Essence Spirits?

It's essence taking the form of the passed, not actual ghosts

we don't know what happens after death in HK

[hard willow]

like warrior spirits and such

[indigo venture]

Essence Spirits as well

[hard willow]

that is why i asked

[scenic surge]

well vessels are the only beings that take the forms of shades

that's just a fact mega

[hard willow]

to understand such

[scenic surge]

well shades as in what we see of the siblings

[hard willow]

also why are essence spirits made

[indigo venture]

I read the first half only

Ngl I'm a dumbass

mb

[indigo venture]

Essence just does that sometimes for some reason

[scenic surge]

it's fine my bro

also don't call yourself a dumbass

[hard willow]

but why so many warrior spirits then

[indigo venture]

Lotta dead people

[hard willow]

why not more normal dead people

[indigo venture]

Most essence spirits are normal dead people

[hard willow]

yeah but why more warrior dead people

than normal dead people

[regal orchid]

Maybe essence has a keen towards those with a strong will or mind

Like, xero was adamant at rebellion, and marmu was determined to protect the gardens

Like, the idea of ‘a warrior’s spirit’ being literal

[regal orchid]

Also why does ur pronouns say ‘female’ but you have the he/him role? Im confused

[hard willow]

misclick

on the server

[regal orchid]

…you can change it yk

[hard willow]

dont know how to change

[regal orchid]

At the top of the channel list, you’ll see ‘channels and roles’. Then find the pronouns bit and change the selection

[hard willow]

aight

[regal orchid]

There we go!!

Anyways Hruu?

[hard willow]

good

[regal orchid]

That’s gooddd

Gonna move this to #hk-discussion

[scenic surge]

there's a lot more normal dead people then warrior ones

literally 90% of them are just normal essence spirits

[hard willow]

really

[scenic surge]

like marrissa

or the two dead kids in queens gardens

or the random graveyard dude

or joni

[hard willow]

oh yeah

well there are alot at the gravyard

[scenic surge]

there's a cookie kid

a doctor

[scenic surge]

uhhh okay yeah a lot of them were warriors there

[versed flax]

How tf did the colloseum get all those bugs that had the infection gng

I genuinly dont know how they captured that many

[loud crater]

Captive breeding program.

[versed flax]

Like they even have soul sanctum enimies

That can teleport

[loud crater]

Volunteers.

[versed flax]

They dont attack the croud in the collosem of fools though

Should they not attack them as they have the infection

[loud crater]

The Colo is very weird.

[scenic surge]

the colosseum is really weird and it's whole deal is never explained (nor will it be explained)

[split compass]

Tiso freely entered the Colosseum, the fighters probably want to be there

even the Sanctum guys, they might have just felt the compulsion to be Foolish

[shadow linden]

fhgjfjh

[sudden aurora]

Lol

[gray mural]

@hard willow there's not that many warrior souls bc like in real life, few are warriors

[trail loom]

So I fell down to resting grounds from crystal peak, can someone explain to me what the lore is? And what is the circle thingys in need to get for a needle?

What are the dreamers?

[split compass]

Resting Grounds are the graveyard of the kingdom - many dead are buried there. They're tended by the Seer, last of the Moth Tribe, who knows a lot about the magic of dreams.

The circle thingys are Essence, a magical power born from dreams. If you gather enough Essence, the Seer will share many secrets and treasures with you.

The Dreamers are mysterious beings closely linked with the kingdom. By this point, all you know is that they're watching you and they've tried to banish you from the kingdom.

[silk tinsel]

why are these symbols here

the essence circles

in fact why on earth is the Lifeblood core in the abyss anyway

[dim helm]

Lifeblood is thought to be heavily related to void

||and some people think that the lifeblood spread during act 3 of skong because of the void||

endgame skong spoilers

[hot lily]

we don't know

[silk tinsel]

i see

i was wondering if that might be the case but didn't think it made much sense

haven't read the skong spoiler tho

if that's related anyway (don't tell me if it is)

[dim helm]

Lifeblood was made taboo in hallownest so the pale king might've known something about it

[signal marlin]

lifeblood being taboo doesnt inherently mean that PK mightve known something about it

[split compass]

that chamber appears to be a dream - you've stepped out of the waking world into the dream realm, hence the wheelies
(which is pretty neat)

I don't know about there being any significance to its location though, re. the Void

I don't really see a connection between the two

[wraith trellis]

But the pale king would definitely know about lifeblood

[signal marlin]

definitely is too strong

[silk tinsel]

ok so GRIMM KNOWS ABOUT- WHAT

this is crazy

[silk tinsel]

huh

[silk tinsel]

ok so looking at NKG journel entry

and normal grimm too

if i'm understanding this right

Grimm's existence is related to the dream world?

[old sentinel]

Yes, his whole schtick is the nightmare gimmick

[silk tinsel]

ah yeah

nightmare is a bad dream

[obtuse terrace]

whys hk missing an arm

[jaunty ravine]

Infection, he had it before as we see in pv

[stable raptor]

can we all agree that the white palace is the best area

[jaunty ravine]

Yes and no

[stable raptor]

[silk tinsel]

is that the pure vessel

or just generic vessel number 23598435

[split compass]

yea - they were the only vessel that PK took out of the Abyss
the others were left behind

[silk tinsel]

i see

so that's the same vessel as in the voidheart cutscene?

[split compass]

yes, the one at the top with PK

[leaden mirage]

Yea ig u can see from the horn pattern

[silk tinsel]

mhm

i was always curious as to who these other vessels were

but then i looked at the horns

gotta wonder how it grew to be so big

training?

[leaden mirage]

And nutrition

[silk tinsel]

right

[split compass]

something like it - it was said to be 'raised and trained to prime form'

[leaden mirage]

U never know maybe pk gave him steroids

[split compass]

some kind of special upbringing

TK is still smol because of child neglect

[leaden mirage]

Yea that's why I think it's cuz of nutrition

[silk tinsel]

i think i remember that from PV journel entry

[leaden mirage]

Yes

[silk tinsel]

but somewhere along the way it had an idea instilled within it

it became tainted

[leaden mirage]

Which is the reason he became sentient and hence infected

[silk tinsel]

hmm

[split compass]

well, they were already sentient - TK lacks any 'instilled ideas' and they're sentient
but something happened to it

made it vulnerable to Radiance

[leaden mirage]

That smth was the idea the knight had instincts example:like a carnivorous venus flytrap they don't have will sentient it's jus their instinct to fight it's smhow same as the knight

[silk tinsel]

ok so something i'm starting to question

i've been under the impression that "dreams" are tied to the Radiance pretty directly

i'm not so sure anymore

i mean i guess radiance expels what looks like essence when she gets hit

but then the same kind of symbol appears in WP and in the lifeblood core, which seem to be pretty... not radiance

[leaden mirage]

She's (or he) a entity which is trapped or reside from the dreams and made of essence

[split compass]

not quite right - the knight has the form and instincts of a child of the pale king, but they are said to have their own will
the pale king's goal with vessels wasn't for to literally have no mind, because that's where the radiance was meant to be trapped
his words are an allusion to another idea

[leaden mirage]

Pretty simple DReam realm is an entire different thing and the godseekers lifeblood creature and radiance All have independent dreams

[silk tinsel]

ooh

and grimm too?

since NKG journel says the realm of dreams was split

[split compass]

yeah, radiance is one dream being but there are others

[leaden mirage]

And the nightmare realm is like....NIGHTMARE realm and doesn't have connection to dream realm and was spliy between dreams and nightmares

[woven heron]

He has the nightmare realm which is how his troupe travels

[silk tinsel]

i see

[split compass]

lots of different dreams

[scenic surge]

yeah that's the hollow knight

[scenic surge]

no?

[scenic surge]

she's a dream entity

[scenic surge]

no that is quite literally what he meaant

the void literally has no mind

has no will

has no anything

as said in other sources in both games

[vestal briar]

but it attacks you when ur on ur way to get shade cloak

if it had no mind or will it wouldnt attack would it

[scenic surge]

I have no idea what you trying to say "I attacks you"

when ur on ut way?

what does that even mean

[vestal briar]

sorry im bad at typing :[

[scenic surge]

it's literally said that void attacks anything that it senses to possess soul

[scenic surge]

it's okay

[vestal briar]

so it must have the will to attack anything with soul

right

[scenic surge]

"""...It is the void, stretched up into this world and its husks. I know it well, that force, its nature. If it senses soul, it will drive voracious towards it.""

[scenic surge]

no it doesn't

[gusty swift]

Guys I have a very important question
So we know the little guy does not have feelings

https://youtu.be/rq2vtgodGHo?t=119&is=KpZZbYJhiBFT8yfY
but in this video around this time
He beats the guy and then he bows
But KNIGHT BOWS BACK

[scenic surge]

the game literally state it doesn't

[gusty swift]

It’s not only the cutest shit ever

But also

He doesn’t have feelings

[vestal briar]

awh darn

[gusty swift]

How does he know what bowing means

[scenic surge]

the knight isn't hollow

it does have feelings

it's literally a discarded vessel

that's said by grimm

[gusty swift]

So he does feel things?

[scenic surge]

and it's literally stated to have a will 3 times

[gusty swift]

That means he can be my friend..

[scenic surge]

yes it's a flawed vessel

[scenic surge]

it got hollowed out 99%

you'd basically be friends with a almost brain dead individual

[gusty swift]

Dude killed the sun I’m sure it’s fine

[scenic surge]

I mean they care for elder bug

so yeah it could grow some kind of bond with you

also it cares for hornet so that's something