sk-lore

[low oracle]

There are water spiders in real life so TC could theoretically add it and have it make sense (somewhat).

[paper mantle]

[low oracle]

So I was curious....
this was the first result.

[craggy smelt]

...yeah, that one's way worse

[exotic tapir]

faaa

[trail wagon]

Idk if they will

[trail wagon]

Well, depends on what you mean

If you're talking about an ability to dive

Like Hornet would have to be able to dive into other pools in the game

Not necessarily yeah

Why not? Who said Phantom can't talk in the tank? Plus, adding to other descriptions, it seems Phantom really wanted to be killed, was super depressed and unsatisfied with their existence, even Hornet says that in the journal entry, so the phrase "why us, sister" is totally in the spirit of the character

[blissful harbor]

i didn’t say she couldn’t, just that it’s more logically sound
for the character who is looking at another character in what is presumably some kind of stasis tank, to be the one talking

and that last part is just as in character with lace so i don’t get your point

[trail wagon]

Hiv knight

[blissful harbor]

if anything it’s more in character for lace, she spends the game lamenting and both hating and wanting GMS’s attention

[trail wagon]

Idk, I would imagine there's a dialogue between them. It's just speculations anyways

[blissful harbor]

indeed

[paper mantle]

What is the difference between a seal and a rune?

[blissful harbor]

seals are runes in a specific order

[trail wagon]

Seals are placed on something i guess

[blissful harbor]

runes are the magic words in a spell basically

[trail wagon]

Like Rune Rage for example just casts runes. Seals are runes sealing something

[low oracle]

A seal is used to seal (imprison, trap, set in place) something. Meanwhile a rune can be used for many thing, including a seal. But also spells, enchantments, and more.

[trail wagon]

That's my understanding

[blissful harbor]

seals are made of runes, runes are the magics thst power it

[trail wagon]

Yeah, basically

[paper mantle]

Thank you, guys

[trail wagon]

Look, bell eater

[low oracle]

My pleasure to be able to talk about lore.

[trail wagon]

Also

I know that HK's bugs aren't necessarily supposed to represent any real life insects, but I think the Bell Eater is likely based off of this extinct centipede (Arthropleura)

[craggy smelt]

we used to have real bugs

[foggy stratus]

We had mantises, stags beetles, dung beetles, Moths, caterpillars, "spiders", grubs. Now we just have like ants, "spiders", "fleas" and maybe one or two more.

[craggy smelt]

crabs

and nuu

[foggy stratus]

The day crabs are bugs is the day I say Hornet is Void.

[craggy smelt]

the bugs of the sea

[unique tangle]

Crabs are closer related to true bugs than spiders are

[edgy nebula]

ambiguous crabs

[craggy smelt]

deeply ambiguous

[unique tangle]

FACT: The Crust in Crust King Khann is short for Crustacean

[twin dragon]

Maybe its coral... crust...

[low oracle]

I thought he was just crusty like that.

[covert night]

hive knight if he was good

[low oracle]

Btw here's a proper human Hornet design, sadly couldn't find any cursed ones.

To make up for it, here's frog Quirrel

[foggy stratus]

Fuck ass haircut.

[craggy smelt]

that's cute

also I don't think frog quirrel is intentionally frog-like

but he's still pretty frog-like yeah

'frogllow knight', hrmm...

oh wait, that's just Amphibia

which did have a hollow knight refence

[covert night]

"i am from hollow knight" ahh reference

[covert night]

is this mio

[sinful nimbus]

yes

[craggy smelt]

from Cookie Cutter

[blissful harbor]

i love human designs thst give her a little bun

[plush oyster]

I gotta say, Phantom is kinda confusing to me, like why's she working at the Exhaust Organ? And why did GMS discard her, if she did at all?

[nimble parcel]

i think that the citadel captured them and enslaved them to work in exhaust organ

[trail wagon]

what's that

[foggy fractal]

pipe front is the file name apparently
probably a part of those pipes that run across the citadel

[craggy smelt]

she's described as 'frayed and fading' - the impression I got was that she was kind of a prototype for Lace, an earlier 'silkborn bug', and maybe her design wasn't quite as durable

when she started to fray, GMS found her flawed, and put her in some degrading, out of the way assignment

like an embarassing noble family member being exiled to some frontier territory

[plush oyster]

Huh, i thought that was just because she was growing old, now that i think of it that makes sense, Lace was probably made to not age, specially with the whole child-like appearance and personality

[edgy nebula]

weird, so theyre hollow

so are they used to spin gms' silk into parts of the citadel or something?

[sand spindle]

This is so scary

[opal cliff]

but are they pure

[edgy nebula]

the pipes are like grand mother silk's hollow knights, spreading her silk and song

[craggy smelt]

a pure pipe is impossible, it's an unattainable goal and etc.

[opal cliff]

🥹

[trail wagon]

Great catch! Thank you!

[trail wagon]

These are probably used to transport the song

[trail wagon]

Bro I literally proposed building a giant speaker right in front of GMS' cacoon and it turns out they did it 🥹

[craggy smelt]

speaking of the song, and re. Phantom

there's the question of why Phantom would be maintaining an element of the Citadel, if the Citadel's song was keeping GMS sealed

maybe after the song of sealing was silenced, GMS decided to repurpose the Citadel's song to sustain her instead

the Weavers were originally making song for this purpose

that would explain why GMS might want the Citadel's operations to continue, just on her terms

[trail wagon]

I have a similar question but more broadly about why the Citadel bugs despite being under the GMS' control are still maintaining the system actively sabotaging her. One of the explanations I've heard is that she wants to both keep control over the Citadel as a powerful giant castle it is and also wan't to retain control

I still find it kinda weird

Especially considering the fact the GMS made Phantom herself, most likely

[craggy smelt]

I've heard various ideas, like that Silk only has partial control so the Haunted will serve her will but aren't complete puppets, and are compelled to maintain some of their normal duties

[trail wagon]

I mean they're still using the same song, as far as I understand. I don't really get the whole song mechanic at all to be honest. What exactly is this song supposed to be? We know the Weavers were singing SOME song to actually worship the GMS, then some song to put her to sleep, etc. What exactly is that song that is keeping her asleep? I think the most sensible explanation is that it's the Threefold melody, as it's needed to enter the Cradle in the first place, I think it would make perfect sense for it to be accessible only if you know the melody you need to sing in the Cradle itself

[craggy smelt]

I think the Threefold Melody is definitely the sealing song, and that's why it was hidden away and silenced, and the mechanisms that play it were shut down

[trail wagon]

True, but also the Pilgrims would need it to access the "heart" of the Citadel and fulfill their duty

[craggy smelt]

maybe before when the Conductors were in charge

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but wouldn't they be interested in still getting more Pilgrims to get to the Citadel to expand the Choir?

[craggy smelt]

at this point, they probably don't bother much with ceremony anymore
they might just get enslaved/haunted once they reach far enough

[trail wagon]

Well, the Haunting is a more recent thing as far as I understand

And it's definitely not something the Conductors are content with

[craggy smelt]

the rise in the Haunting would have coincided with the breakdown of the Threefold Melody, so as the Haunting got worse the melody grew more silent

[trail wagon]

Perhaps

[craggy smelt]

at the time of the game, it doesn't seem like the Citadel bothers with the Conductors much anymore

well, Conductor

[trail wagon]

I still don't fully understand the mechanism. I think the Pilgrims were needed to join the ranks of the choir so they always have enough bugs to sing

But we don't really see any organized system of how and where they were supposed to sing

Ascending to the heart of the Citadel seems to be the end goal of the Pilgrimage, but we don't really know what happens after the pilgrimage has ended

I would imagine that the choir was used to perpetuate the song so it never goes silent

And then, apparently, the Conductors decided to automate the entire process eventually, and that's why they started building the Cogwork Core, at least that's the way I interpreted it. But I'm not sure why the Core was intended to only play the Architects' melody and not the threefold melody in its entirety

[craggy smelt]

the intention was probably to fully automate everything eventually, the architects just started with their part

(they're kind of automated already)

[trail wagon]

Yes

But still, this really buggles me

[craggy smelt]

mind buggling

[trail wagon]

Why is there an almost finished mechanism that could've worked perfectly and yet it doesn't

Hornet only has to solve a relatively simple puzzle to put the mechanism in motion

The core was never meant to play anything else, it seems. The 12th Architect says that the mechanism was build to "sound their song"

[edgy nebula]

there was no bug in the kingdom heavy enough to press the button, hornet is just really dense

[trail wagon]

there sure isn't

[craggy smelt]

the final edict of the Conductors was an intention to embrace automation

Last edict of the Conductors.
"And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given.
The perfect, unfaltering voice."
things probably just fell apart before the project of full Citadel automation could be achieved
the Cogwork Core was where it started, and the Core was expanding, but then everything went straight to silken hell

[trail wagon]

yes yes I know

[trail wagon]

Probably actually

But I guess what puzzles me is why not make statues playing the threefold melody instead of building a bunch of stuff..

Especially considering the fact they already practically have those statues, the ones used at the elevator

[craggy smelt]

the other stuff probably makes the statues work
it's all one big cogwork music box

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I understand that too, that's not what I'm saying ahhah

they could've just taken those statues and put them instead of the architect thing

and not have to do anything else, probably

they would have a functioning mechanism to keep the GMS asleep all at once

[trail wagon]

Also, what's that? Is that a Choral Commadment?

Lowkey the GMS might be the most genius character in HK. Find stupid primitive bug -> ascend them and make them sing you songs -> they put you to sleep and build a whole ass palace around the cacoon where you sleep and an entire kingdom -> they die and pass all of that onto regular bugs -> the bugs are stupid and they end up making themselves literally your puppets

The Weavers were a splendid investment, I see

[limpid summit]

True

It’s weird because GMS was content to just conventionally fight the other bugs like the Karak and Skarr

But we needed our Rad parallels

[craggy smelt]

that's some wyrm-tier foresight right there

[trail wagon]

Ahahah right?

Ahhh looking through references to paleness and it seems like TC are almost deliberately trying to make the idea of what is pale in the HK universe unthinkably vague

Just like any other broad concept..

[twin dragon]

If only we knew jack shit about old pharloom and didn't need to guess if it were any of the 3 main antagonists that did this

Sign a petition for old pharloom to be made TODAY

[tall bobcat]

signature

[violet horizon]

I dont understand somthn on the secret ending in Silksing

Silksong

Why would the Hollow Knight or well the current Shade Lord even care to subjigate Lace ? Like brah lol

I get his past ofc being all over the top rip and tear but idk doesnt seem like the knight to just overthrow a Kingdome with using mother silk and such?

[twin dragon]

The void acts on its own i think

[midnight reef]

The Void is an independant thing from the Shadelord

[twin dragon]

It really isn't

[violet horizon]

Huh so Shade Lord doesnt control the void

How did the Knight save here then or im confused

[twin dragon]

The void is part of the the knight now

they're essentially the same being

[violet horizon]

So

Why would the knight bother to attack Lace lol

[twin dragon]

Tk doesn't really just attack lace it's moreso the void behaving on its own

Likely unless tk doesn't really want something to happen the void stays idle

[violet horizon]

So its not his doing?

[twin dragon]

Nope

[violet horizon]

So what he just wasnt aware of it or

It was doing that without him knowing so he didnt do anything about it

[twin dragon]

Likely isn't aware till tk senses hornet

Or yk, just thinks that the void is doing its thing

[violet horizon]

Aah okay xP

Makes an entire empire go to ruin isnt aware of the implications lel

[low oracle]

Which makes sense, considering how Shades work. They do their own thing until the Knight comes along (with Voidheart) and then they follow its lead.

[twin dragon]

Tk is just another extension of the void after all, with some degree of control over it

[rocky coyote]

I just realised the knight from the sister of the void cutscene looks more like thk

With the horns and stuff

[twin dragon]

No they don't

[rocky coyote]

Like in the path of pain and void heart memories just in the shade form

[twin dragon]

they're a carbon copy of what they look like in dnm

[rocky coyote]

No

[twin dragon]

yes

they have the extended horn stuff

[rocky coyote]

Oh youre right

Sorry sisyphus prime

[low oracle]

Their Voidheart Shade form is different in several aspects, including the horns.

[craggy smelt]

more lord-ly

[low oracle]

About humanoid hornet ("cursed") this was the first non-human result.

[cinder storm]

whart the fuck

anyway what happened to the nameless town and why is it nameless

[sinful nimbus]

Its residents were lured down by the weavers to join the Citadel

Its nameless cuz no one remembers the name presumably

[blissful harbor]

the first pilgrims

[chrome flume]

Wait so if greyroot and the white lady look so simpler and so does the knight and zote could greyroot be zotes mother because the knight glows because there a pale being but zote doesn't because there mother has been infected by bilewater

[twin dragon]

[low oracle]

Please tell me this is a joke

[craggy smelt]

just actual hornet

rockin her slab fit

[low oracle]

Rocking the Nosk ass body type

[rapid knoll]

no one is left to say its name

[cinder storm]

the surface lowk safer than any kingdom

even the bugs dont harm u

[low oracle]

The Garpede relatives sure as f do

[cinder storm]

they're still underground

[low oracle]

Well there is that one dude in the slab

[low oracle]

The surface is also underground...and they are part of the surface area.

[cinder storm]

still safer than any kingdom

[limpid summit]

Lands serene

[cinder storm]

we dont know whats there except the everblooms

they might not be so serene

[craggy smelt]

misleadingly labeled

probably safe from the Void, at least

[cinder storm]

that true

[plush oyster]

Greyroot is Zote's mother is such a dumb theory

[low oracle]

It's wrong in literally every way possible.

[foggy stratus]

Its hardly a theory, just stretching details to try and fit it.

Most egregious piece of "evidence" is Zote having a form with "grey" in it. That isnt real, mind you.

[plush oyster]

And the fact that he looks like a vessel doesn't work either because Elderbug is basically the same

[foggy stratus]

Both are just common bugs.

[plush oyster]

Yeah, i think they might be of the same species, these vessel-like bugs, but with mouths

[chrome flume]

No

[sinful nimbus]

I feel like we're overcomplicating it

He looks like a vessel because he's the child of the Pale King and the White Lady just to see if they were compatible to have kids

[foggy stratus]

He looks like a Vessel because hes a common bug, who look like Vessels.

[sinful nimbus]

The only other supposed "common bug" who looks like the vessels is Elderbug who has 4 legs

[low oracle]

Nah bro, we gotta make up some ten page lore on a character that has literally nothing to do with any of this, which is literally proven countless times.

[foggy stratus]

Nothing says all common bugs have to look exactly alike and share all the exact same traits.

Particularly when bugs in the game all can look so drastically different.

[low oracle]

People mistake random pilgrims for vessels all the time, just saying.

[craggy smelt]

Hunter mentions that the vessels look like the bugs of Hallownest, but 'not quite the same'
so presumably there are a number of regular bugs like that

enough like the vessels that to remark on them being similar, different enough to stand out

just like Zote

[pseudo narwhal]

It's actually common trope in mythology and fantasy that the realm of the dead described as lands serene or tranquil
Because only the dead are at peace
(Just an observation)

[modest trail]

is sherma a child?

[foggy stratus]

No, hes an adult.

I believe.

[modest trail]

thanks

[elder compass]

I think he's not completely an adult

[low oracle]

Nah, pretty sure he's confirmed to be young of age.

[cinder storm]

so is zote's weapon from the shellwood we know or not

[foggy fractal]

we don't know

besides iirc the description for zote's weapon is made OF shellwood, doesn't really make sense unless the wood from shellwood is also called shellwood, of which we have no idea whats it called

[craggy smelt]

it's weird that there's a place called Shellwood

it's like having a forest called Lumber

[low oracle]

I think there was more on 'Shellwood', it being just wood or something, though I may be harshly misremembering.

[main scarab]

I have no idea what to do

[plush oyster]

I feel like Shellwood is not the only place with shellwood, but i could be completly wrong

[olive rune]

shell wood could be the name of a species, like maple, but it could not, as we have maple forests after all and they are called maple forests most of the time

[plush oyster]

Yeah that's what i think, it's like a type of "tree" that could grow in other parts of the world

[olive rune]

same

also you guys wanna hear a bench theory?

[plush oyster]

Go on

[olive rune]

my theory is that hornet and the knight inherited foresght from the pale kig and use it on a bench, when you die you just see that future and are filled with horrible fear, the void in the knight makes this into a shade while hornet's weaver part makes this a cocoon, steel soul also means you have a steelly cold depressed soul that cannot handle using foresight thus cannot see failed attempts

the cocoon also has the fetal hornet sprite which could embody these emotions

[plush oyster]

I actually heard of this theory and although it makes some sense, i don't know how the shade and cocoon would be left behind after that death, specially when the vessel and their shade are kind of, but not really the same being, specially after we see that the Knight remembers Hornet even in shade form

[uneven pilot]

Same

[olive rune]

nice i made the theory on my own idk where you heard it, but the shade is not exactly the night just like how fetal hornet is not exactly hornet

also the night doesnt exactly turn into a shade in the dream no more and embrace the void endings as he turns into void given form and void given focus, void given form is different from the shade as the sprite shows

[plush oyster]

I just see Void Given Form and Focus as evolutions of the shades, specially the former which is just like the shade, but with longer horns, tendrils, and legs

[olive rune]

sorta

[plush oyster]

It's not a bad theory, i just personally don't subscribe to it for the aforementioned reasons

[olive rune]

the shade lord is not exactly a shade

[olive rune]

thats cool i just wanted to share

[plush oyster]

It probably won't ever be confirmed tbh, but let's wait and se

[limpid summit]

In VGForm the knight chooses to take a shadelike form

In VGFocus godly focus makes its void control more potent so it draws more void into itself and becomes huge

[trail wagon]

I think Shellwood is wood of shell

TC are prone to add similar words to completely unrelated things making the distinction super vague

[trail wagon]

Pale beings, pale lurker, pale ore

I believe some metal was described as pale iirc

[trail wagon]

Makes sense except for the steel part, idk if anything really points to it. Also I don't think the shade or the cocoon are canon in a sense that in the game lore neither Hornet nor the Knight ever see their cocoon/shade, it just shows what would happen if they died

Also, curious, does the FS fight take place in Hornet's mind where the FS is her mind Hornet is trying to bind, and from the outside it looks like Hornet beats her own ahh ?

[foggy stratus]

There's like no evidnece for this. Plus it wouldn't make any sense for the Void to do that when we know that the Shade is a part of a Vessel.

[olive rune]

yes and since the fetal hornet exist we could theorize that a fetal knight does as a remnant of this "failed" future that the shade overtakes to become its own seperate being (in a way) from the knight

i mentioned shade as the ingame thing not the lore thing, there is a difference

[stray grove]

If you subscribe to the respawning = foresight headcanon you have to disregard the actual respawn mechanic

Like TK doesn’t actually fight its Shade or wtv

The headcanon goes “whenever TK or Hornet fall in battle that was just a vision and they wake up on the bench”, anything after the moment of death is irrelevant

[mossy jay]

Or if Zote was so almighty he simply duplicated the entirety of Shellwood and put it into his sword.

[stray grove]

Which is fine btw

The respawn mechanic isn’t canon anyways

I don’t have an issue with the headcanon as such

[olive rune]

the steel part is maybe my weakest link but i used it to explain a potential inconsistency and we dont know (ormaybe we do and im dumb) if the shade or cocoon are canon objects or only exist in te game, but this could explain it if they are canon

gtg

[sinful nimbus]

Your soul meter gets reduced cuz foresight is a costly soul spell duh

[stray grove]

I hate it when people take a fairly simple idea and attempt to use it to explain a bunch of gameplay contrivances all at once
Back in MY day you’d get beaten in the town square for even SUGGESTING the idea that Hornet and TK could have inherited foresight now we literally accept it as a viable headcanon and that’s still not enough for some of y’all

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet didn't inherit anything from PK sorry

[stray grove]

She inherited his malleable nature 🥺

[olive rune]

no more so that the horror experienced is that emmense that you lose your soul

[stray grove]

Package deal with the evil genes

[olive rune]

.

[stray grove]

You know you can just accept that there are gameplay contrivances

[olive rune]

guys apperently theories are heresy now

[sinful nimbus]

they've got to come up with some better punishments upon death bro

[olive rune]

ya but i like to theorize

[olive rune]

fair

[stray grove]

But it’s not a theory gng you’re just sayin shit 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

This is why MIO is the goat cuz it has currency loss but no corpse runs

[stray grove]

The foresight headcanon is fine if you leave it at that you can’t possibly account for everything

[olive rune]

mio?

whats that

[sinful nimbus]

hit metroidvania which totally mogs hk and ss

[stray grove]

Don’t worry about it it’s a mid Metroidvania

Copies a lot from Silksong and especially Nine Sols

Which are much better games

[sinful nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/spiderman-across-the-spiderverse-spiderman-miles-morales-spiderman-india-pavitr-prabhakar-gif-16197909777999517366

[stray grove]

TRUE

[olive rune]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-impossible-marvel-shocked-gif-15104180

[olive rune]

ive never played nine sols but i want to, i am saving for a pc cuz i am rocking a 5 yrld budget work laptop/ipad convertable

anyways cya

[trail wagon]

Well, we kinda do. TK's mask breaks in the Dream No More ending, thus they die

[trail wagon]

There's nothing suggesting a vessel would be revived after dying

Where would they get a new body from?

They just become a shade and probably go to the abyss

[olive rune]

did you ready anything abut my theory

[trail wagon]

Sorry, I might've misesd

[olive rune]

or how the abyss's shades ended up there

[olive rune]

also notice how their mask flies off, i would assume the Shade part of the knight is gaining control

[glacial warren]

I think the Knight is able to be felled, but its will is stronger than most of its siblings, letting it recover from Damage that would have otherwise been fatal. It recollects itself back at the last ‘safe place’ I.E. Bench it rested at, though it remains in a weakened state due to leaving part of itself, the Shade, behind.

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that this probably doesn't happen anywhere in the game. It's the same way as if TK was a human character, and, let's say, someone would pierce their chest with a sword and they would bleed out and die. In the game it would happen regularly when you die, but cannonically it would only happen at the end in the cutsecene

That's what I'm getting at

[glacial warren]

Notably, when you die ingame, the mask only cracks, never fully breaks. The only time the Knight dies with any permanence is when the mask is fully split in two.

[trail wagon]

hm true

[glacial warren]

The mask seems to be the container, the anchoring point for its otherwise Void-made body giving it stability. The Mask cracking is a severe point of Damage forcing it to retreat and regather itself at the last safe spot it rested at, at the cost of leaving behind a Shade, a piece of itself holding some of its Soul.

[trail wagon]

Wait, but does that mean the knight technically has 2 shades?

Like the one insde them and the one left wherever they died

[glacial warren]

The Shade that forms after a Mask crack seems to be a ‘chip’ of the full Shade within itself, carrying only a piece and sliver of its power.

[trail wagon]

I personally don't feel like a character death and rewpawning has to have a lore-accurate explanation at all, it's a video game

[glacial warren]

Note how your max Soul drops a bit after you die and leave a Shade. It’s essentially a tiny fragment of your essence, having gained a will of its own, however primitive that might be.

[trail wagon]

I'm more curious how all creatures in Hallownest somehow drop geo

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but how does the knight teleport? There's nothing that would be trasnported to the bench. The mask flied off, tho not broken

[glacial warren]

I mean in this case there is in fact lore. The Shade isn’t just a gameplay mechanic, the world and some of its inhabitants acknowledge and are cognizant of its existence.

[trail wagon]

This would mean the Knight gains a new body

It doesn't really make sense

[glacial warren]

I think it has to do with its ‘body’ being mostly Void, which is by nature amorphous and fluid.

It destabilizes momentarily, retrieves its mask, and slinks off to the nearest Bench to attach it and regain stability, becoming fully solid once more.

[trail wagon]

I don't think it's really fluid, the knight's mask in DNM is very much broken for instance

[trail wagon]

Well, I mean.. this is just pure speculation, prescribing abilities to the void that we don't know are real

[glacial warren]

I moreso mean the creature’s torso and stubby limbs, the actual ‘body’ under the mask.

[trail wagon]

hmm idk

[trail wagon]

Hornet's body is also black

[glacial warren]

The Void we see is mostly liquid, so it’s not off the table.

[trail wagon]

well, the mask is most likely not void

I don't think there's really any way the mask could be restored by the void

the void would have to create a new one

[glacial warren]

And other Void beings like the Collector melt away into liquid while releasing Void particles when slain. The Knight’s mask and body flake off Void particles when you’re close to death.

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I get that. Again, it seems that for the Knight to retain the form in which we see them in game they need a mask which is not void

and I don't think there's anything at all suggesting that the void is capable of generating something that isn't void

[glacial warren]

Well yeah but the mask can always be fixed so long as it does not fully break. The Knight is able to use its power of will and Soul to self-repair.

[trail wagon]

the mask flies off, then the knight is respawned

Are you saying the void takes the mask and flies to the nearest safe spot?

and then reconstructs the body?

[glacial warren]

Ye. My guess is it retrieves the mask after its body de-stabilizes into a more fluid state, and then takes the mask with it to the most recent rest spot it visited to Focus and repair.

[trail wagon]

I mean.. it's not like impossible, I agree

[glacial warren]

It can always recover so long as the mask is not fully destroyed.

[trail wagon]

But personally I feel like it's not really intended to be interpreted that way. My guess is that the shade spawns just to show that that's what inside TK, plus a very cool gameplay mechanic. Respawning is a gameplay necessity

[glacial warren]

In fact this might also explain why the Collector is stable despite not having any kind of container. He has more of a will holding him together compared to, say, a standard Kingsmould.

[glacial warren]

I feel like it is. Again the Shade is shown at several points to be acknowledged by not just us, but the world and its inhabitants.

The Hunter has an entire Journal page dedicated to the study of this creature, Jiji can summon it at will and will comment on your fights with it, and the Collector even traps the thing in one of his jars if he defeats you. These events would not occur if the Shade were just a mechanic.

[trail wagon]

I at some point proposed a lore explanation as to why Silksong is much more saturated that the HK. In act 3 there's a desaturation effect that is applied when the GMS is screaming. TK is a void creature, therefore their sence of color is desaturated, saturation is lowered when the void is around

But the actual reason is obviously because it looks better

[glacial warren]

Interesting to note.

[trail wagon]

Yeah hahaha

You can actually notice that the saturation level drops to the HK value pretty much

maybe not the background, but if you look at Hornet it's literally the same color

[trail wagon]

Well.. you're right, yeah. I would still think these are not necessarily canon events ahahahah

[sinful nimbus]

How long I must have slept. This land is so much darker now, so thick with the stains of regret.
🧐

[trail wagon]

Who's that? :0

[sinful nimbus]

jiji

[trail wagon]

similarly to how Hornet can be trapped in the Bellhart strings, I don't think this really happens cannonically. I mean it's mostly a semantic question. It IS canon as in, it shows what would happen if it did, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the timeline

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter never talks about the shade

If you read the entry he's just musing about regrets

[trail wagon]

journal entry, I guess

[glacial warren]

I think it is. Again it wouldn’t have this much interaction from not just you but the denizens of the world if it were only a mechanic.

[trail wagon]

It can be just for fuuuun you know ahahahah

[glacial warren]

He’s musing about regrets in regards to the Shade. The creature makes him ponder such things as he studies it.

[sinful nimbus]

He doesn't mention the shade though

[trail wagon]

Well Jiji is capable of summoning the void similarly to Sula

[glacial warren]

He doesn’t have to, these are his notes on the Shade’s dedicated page in the Journal.

[sinful nimbus]

The top portions of every hunter's journal entry is meta text there's a lot of stuff he wouldn't know about

The bottom portion is his own words and he never mentions the shades and siblings

[trail wagon]

I think it's just a general principle that the developers are trying to show us

You can argue that Steel Soul is the canon version where you die permanently

[sinful nimbus]

Each of us leaves an imprint of something when we die. A stain on the world. I don't know how much longer this kingdom can bear the weight of so many past lives...

[glacial warren]

Well he doesn’t know the context behind the creature, just that it exists and can be hunted.

[sinful nimbus]

No he doesn't why would he have encounted TK's shade

That doesn't make any sense

[trail wagon]

I mean some vessels got out of the Abyss, it's not impossible that the Hunter could've potentially seen it

Especially considering that there's literally a vessel corpse in Greenpath

[glacial warren]

He’s been stalking around for quite some time and there’s other Vessels present in the world. He must have witnessed them perish, or even hunted a few himself, and saw the Shade they left behind post-mortem.

[trail wagon]

The hunter might've seen it

The shades would likely go back to the abyss, I reckon

[sinful nimbus]

Even if this was true it wouldn't really say anything about respawning, obviously shades exist in canon

[sinful nimbus]

But like he's clearly not talking about a creature in the entry idk what to say

[trail wagon]

I don't think such basic game mechanics need to have any lore explanation at all, again. They may potentially, and you can have them if you like ahahah

[glacial warren]

Of course he is, he’s talking about the Shade here. He’s musing about what exactly this thing is and what its presence represents.

[trail wagon]

And again, I don't feel like this idea is impossible

but it's just making shi up in my opinion

don't mean to be rude, I hope it doesn't come off as such :0

Why do all creatures in Hallownest drop geo?

Cause videogame

[sinful nimbus]

He's talking about like, everyone, in general. Not everyone leaves a shade upon death

[foggy stratus]

Or hes talking in a literal sense on how people tend to leave blood stains after they die and hes worried that so much blood will cause the ground to grow infertile for plant life.

[sinful nimbus]

Its a vessel exclusive thing and the ties between void and regret are figurative

[trail wagon]

It doesn't make any sense at all, that's why in Silksong most creatures drop shards and more "civilized" ones drop rosaries

[glacial warren]

Yes but in this case he’s seen it take a more material form.

[sinful nimbus]

So like it doesn't make any sense for that journal to LITERALLY be about the shade (which he has never encountered and if he did encounter it he would presumably mention it 🥴 )

[foggy stratus]

Most "civilized" bugs*

[trail wagon]

?

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really what shades are

[foggy stratus]

The Penitent bugs and the Stilkin notably don't drop them.

[glacial warren]

Well in a way it’s an apt description. They’re the lingering echo left behind when a Vessel goes kaput.

[craggy smelt]

there are a couple of Hunter entries where he just generally muses on stuff, regarding creatures he can't have possibly encountered (Radiance)
the Shade entry is one of them - he never makes any direct remark about hunting the entry's subject
even the siblings get a nod to that, and it doesn't sound like he's ever encountered one of them either

[trail wagon]

uhh I guess you can say both creatures or bugs, doesn't really matter

[trail wagon]

ohhh

sorry, I got what you meant nvm

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but he's talking in a nebulous more figurative sense about everyone

[trail wagon]

the same way Hornet does in Silksong

[glacial warren]

But that makes no sense, he’s been around long enough to have seen Vessels in the world and has likely hunted them before, ergo he must have seen the Shades produced upon their demise.

[sinful nimbus]

If it was about the shade it would be bizarre for him not to mention how abnormal it is (or not to mention it at all like in other entries)

[trail wagon]

instead of a journal entry.. writing diaries about her relationships 😭 😭😭

[glacial warren]

Hell he’s probably seen Hornet chew through a fair number of them, given her hunting ground in Greenpath is close to the Hunter’s own den.

[lapis creek]

i think this is kind of the opposite

[trail wagon]

Yeah, well, he probably saw shades, so what? I'm not quite sure what we're talking about :0

[foggy stratus]

The Broken Vessel journal entry only really mentions how hes seen Vessels, not hunted them.

[lapis creek]

hornet has seen everything in her journal she just chooses not to talk about it sometimes

[craggy smelt]

he does make some reference to vessels, but we're not actually sure just how the Shade emerges from a slain vessel
we see vessel corpses without Shades haunting them
the Greenpath vessel seems like it was killed recently, but doesn't produce a Shade
shades may not manifest right away, or at all outside the Abyss, once the Void has leaked down there
the Knight's shade haunting a region could be gameplay, not how shades work normally

[trail wagon]

Yeah, true ahahah

vro all we know is that after the Vessels die there are shades left behind, we don't know anything else really

[glacial warren]

It isn’t just gameplay, how many times do I need to explain this.

[trail wagon]

can we all agree Hornet most likely doesn't find her cocoon canonically?

[lapis creek]

yes

[trail wagon]

so why does the Knight have to lol

[glacial warren]

The Shade is acknowledged and even interacted with by the world and its inhabitants outside of just the Knight, this wouldn’t be possible if it was ‘just a mechanic.’

[craggy smelt]

Shades certainly exist, but Shades popping up right after a vessel dies might be gameplay
in Steel Soul, we don't see the Shade emerge, just waves of Void that blast outwards

[opal cliff]

well she doesnt die canonically

[sinful nimbus]

The shade is canon everyone knows this bruh

Respawning isn't

[trail wagon]

I think it's just for fun literally

[sinful nimbus]

Stuff like Collector is pretty obviously just for flair

[glacial warren]

Okay so. There’s this NPC called Jiji.

[trail wagon]

why..?

[stable ice]

Wrong channel mb

[opal cliff]

i forgive you

[craggy smelt]

'I won't be ignored - wait, ignore me'

[foggy stratus]

I dont.

[opal cliff]

https://tenor.com/view/ghost-of-tsushima-duel-samurai-gif-17911929

[trail wagon]

There's also a steel heart Jinn

[stable ice]

Wrong channel, mb chat

[craggy smelt]

yes, and Jiji's rituals do something with the Void
but canonically, TK can't ask Jiji to summon their Shade

[foggy stratus]

"Come forth, Child of Man. And... die."

[glacial warren]

But again the fact he went out of his way to stash it in a jar after the Knight’s demise tells us he saw and interacted with the creature.

[trail wagon]

yg

[opal cliff]

thats just quirky gameplay hijinks

[sinful nimbus]

Yea if Collector saw a shade he would probably trap it

[glacial warren]

Of course it can’t, Jiji just senses the piece of it that’s missing and requests an Egg. In return, she summons that missing piece.

[opal cliff]

it doesnt make any sense for the post death shade to be canon where the hell is the shell coming from

[sinful nimbus]

So what

where is the extra shade coming from

[lapis creek]

we dont even know if jiji typically deals with void

[opal cliff]

where is any of it coming from

[foggy stratus]

Same with the Shade looking out towards Unn in the Lake of Unn room.

[sinful nimbus]

whole new knight just manifests on the spot 😭

[lapis creek]

we know that it's highly illegal for her to do it

[trail wagon]

I just don't know how we're getting to entirely made-up scenarios of how the Void behaves simply because some aspects of the game interact with one of the core game mechanics

[sinful nimbus]

No other vessel does this either

[lapis creek]

in hindsight

[opal cliff]

the shell is animated by a shade but is also looking for its shade

[trail wagon]

true

most likely not actually

[craggy smelt]

I do think that the Shade would do the stuff we see it doing (hanging out at Lake of Unn etc.) if it could canonically

[glacial warren]

I think the Knight doing this has to do with it having a heightened will.

[trail wagon]

I think Jiji is just so hungry that she doesn't gaf anymore lol

[lapis creek]

im not saying that was tc's stance when they made hollow knight, it might not be relevant

[foggy stratus]

I think it would jump the Moss Knignt first tho.

[sinful nimbus]

? why would this be the case

[craggy smelt]

nooo, they're chilling together!

[opal cliff]

it can do this because its pure

[craggy smelt]

agreed, it's very funny to think she's breaking Steel Law because she wants food

[foggy stratus]

No Vessel is Pure.

[trail wagon]

I think this wasn't really thought-through at the time

[sinful nimbus]

TK doesn't have a "heightened will" really nor is a heightened will resurrecting you a thing in univeerse

[trail wagon]

yeah ahahhaah

[opal cliff]

how do you know i dont mean pure of heart

[sinful nimbus]

You would expect this to be acknowledged by literally anyone in the universe ever or otherwise hinted at in some capacity

[glacial warren]

It is able to recover from harm most Vessels could not. It is a strength born of two Voids. Also, I think the Shade the Knight produces is like a chip or fragment of itself, since it’s animated using a piece of its own Soul reserves.

[lapis creek]

well

[trail wagon]

Isn't TK just lucky?

[opal cliff]

no thats masterchief

[lapis creek]

people say over and over the knight is special but i dont think they mean it like that

[foggy stratus]

Because "Pure" here refers to Vessel Purity. You would need to specify if you mean it some other way. And being 'Pure of heart' doesn't really matter.

[trail wagon]

me too, I think the knight becomes special by their actions

[opal cliff]

nothing gets past you does it

[trail wagon]

what abilities they get

[sinful nimbus]

idk what the first sentence means like at all but when Hornet says that its because TK spent a significant amount of time getting stronger outside of Hallownest

[trail wagon]

what objects they interact with

[sinful nimbus]

Why would that make it undying

[foggy stratus]

Im a Vessel. I have eyes in the back of my shell.

[trail wagon]

There's nothing suggesting TK is even pure

[lapis creek]

is that the argument

[sinful nimbus]

TK is the only truly hollow vessel

[foggy stratus]

No.

[trail wagon]

I would even argue TK might be one of the most mindful vessels

[sinful nimbus]

Name another truly hollow vessel

[trail wagon]

why??

[opal cliff]

the only truly the hollow knight....

[trail wagon]

none

[sinful nimbus]

Can u name one

[foggy stratus]

None are.

[trail wagon]

why does there have to be

[lapis creek]

i thought they were just saying with a strong enough will you could leave a shade behind in your location of death rather than the abyss

[opal cliff]

broken vessel is literally hollow

[sinful nimbus]

OK so its the only truly hollow vessel cased closed

[lapis creek]

why would the knight respawn

[sinful nimbus]

No its not she's filled with lightseeds

[glacial warren]

That is. Not it at all. The second ‘Void’ Hornet is referencing is the Void of mind. The Knight went outside Hallownest, meaning it lost the precious mind the Pale King granted. It lost its memories, it forgot the divine imperative to be empty and hollow that the King had instilled in it, causing it to gain a hardened will of its own.

[foggy stratus]

There are no "truly hollow vessels" which I assume means Pure in this instance.

[opal cliff]

id argue shes more often not filled with lightseeds

[sinful nimbus]

no pure means being able to contain the radiance indefinitely

[trail wagon]

TK helps Hornet tho

[sinful nimbus]

I'm talking about the fact that its head is empty

[trail wagon]

So prolly they have emotions

[lapis creek]

did the king instill an imperative to be empty in the knight

[trail wagon]

At least some

[lapis creek]

i thought he just locked it away in the abyss

[trail wagon]

Or mind

[sinful nimbus]

Then her head is filled with air

[trail wagon]

To think

hahahaha

[glacial warren]

It’s also likely why the Collector maintains stability despite being literally just Void without any kind of stabilizing anchor or container: He has a heightened will of his own keeping him animate and holding his liquid Void in shape.

[opal cliff]

hollow things usually are

[lapis creek]

he also notably dies upon taking enough damage

[foggy stratus]

"Empty" is a concept similar to nothing. There isnt truly an "empty" space.

[sinful nimbus]

TK obviously didn't lose is mind outside of Hallownest as A) Its still walking around and has all its mental functions intact and B) Ist mind wasn't granted by the Pale King cuz its his spawn 🥴

[opal cliff]

if i showed you something hollow and you were like but theres air in there id probably kill you on the spot

[sinful nimbus]

Its filled with the concept of nothingness

[sinful nimbus]

That's why I said TRULY hollow

[trail wagon]

he can be like shades

[sinful nimbus]

Air is something whereas void is nothing

[foggy stratus]

Void isnt literally nothing.

[sinful nimbus]

What???

[trail wagon]

wdym void is nothing

[opal cliff]

https://tenor.com/view/sponge-bob-squarepants-bla-bla-bla-bla-yap-talking-gif-5283599

[craggy smelt]

I
also think
-# tk is hollow

[foggy stratus]

Its very clearly something. It's just described as nothing.

[craggy smelt]

[sinful nimbus]

cmon bro 🥀

[trail wagon]

look, an empty image

[sinful nimbus]

Its the standard fantasy primordial darkness

[foggy stratus]

GodSlopers.

[sinful nimbus]

It is nothing

[trail wagon]

nothingness doesn't exist

[lapis creek]

bait used to be believable

[craggy smelt]

metaphorically

[trail wagon]

nothing is absence of anything

[foggy stratus]

It has a loose will, it can do things. Both things Nothing could do.

[opal cliff]

this is all too nuanced

[lapis creek]

nothingness could exist it just famously doesnt form tendrils

[glacial warren]

Okay so i’m going to have to explain this in baby steps. When something leaves the kingdom of Hallownest, the boost in intellect the King’s presence grants abates. The Knight left and forgot who and what it was, ergo why the Birthplace scene is so imperative: This is the moment it recovers its earliest memory and recalls where it came from and why it exists.

[sinful nimbus]

TK doesn't have the boost at any point in time period

If it did it would die upon leaving Hallownest as seen with the corpses at the kingdom's border

[trail wagon]

Also

[foggy stratus]

Then why didn't Hornet forget?

[trail wagon]

Where does this idea come from?

[glacial warren]

Well it kind of has to, it’s the King’s direct spawn.

[sinful nimbus]

The king wasn't dependent on his own beacon

His wife presumably wasn't either

Neither is the void

[trail wagon]

In Silksong, we see pretty much regular bugs travelling very big distances between two kingdows

[foggy stratus]

Hornet left and was just fine.

[trail wagon]

And they seem to remeber stuff?

Obviously they're haunted, I get that

But the haunting doesn't fully control them tho

[glacial warren]

That is an interesting gap in the lore i’m unsure as to why it has yet to be answered. Albeit we do see in the Red Memory that her mind has a lot of gaps in it, including struggling to recall Herrah’s face, so she wasn’t entirely unaffected.

[craggy smelt]

some bugs were given augmented intelligence by the magical beacon that PK brought to Hallownest
if those bugs leave the kingdom, they lose their intelligence
there's a bug corpse whose dnd suggests this in Howling Cliffs (and also a tablet that warns against leaving)

[sinful nimbus]

Howling Cliffs tablet

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond.
Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants.

Corpse immediately after

"...No king... No mind... Release..."

[trail wagon]

Hornet super cool

[opal cliff]

curious...

[lapis creek]

is this true

[trail wagon]

She was probably just very little when she saw Herrah I guess

[sinful nimbus]

When the 1 year old can't recall her mothers face

[lapis creek]

did they make it far enough for the thing to take effect

[craggy smelt]

some people misunderstand this whole mechanic and think going into the wastes just erases everyone's mind

[foggy stratus]

Shes fine because she's Pale King's kid. She only can't member Herrah's face because its been literal lifetimes since she last saw it.

[lapis creek]

like if the dn dialogue is to be interpreted as their thoughts, the kings idol guy still knows who the king is

[sinful nimbus]

...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
bro 🥀

[trail wagon]

I mean PK is not really known for being super genuine, is he?

[craggy smelt]

and TK probably lost their memory because their birth was crazy traumatic
it was like the first fucking thing that happened to them

[sinful nimbus]

He's in the process of losing his mind

[foggy stratus]

The lifetimes thing isnt even hyperbolic, its factual. Shes outlived several of her mates.

[opal cliff]

marvel dialogue

[craggy smelt]

then they got stuck in the abyss and went out into the wastes for however long

what does TK even have to remember

[glacial warren]

That might be possible, yes.

[grave stream]

is there any silksong lore in this channel

[foggy stratus]

More accurately repressed, I think.

[trail wagon]

Didn't Hornet visit Herrah's grave tho?

[lapis creek]

yeah but he didnt die of mind loss

[trail wagon]

In game

[craggy smelt]

sure

[trail wagon]

I don't know if they can be traumatized as a void being

[craggy smelt]

is there any silksong lore
no

[lapis creek]

i dont really understand the argument

sure the outside of the kingdom is dangerous and death is likely

[trail wagon]

well technically HK and SS share the same lore 🥹

[foggy stratus]

Unlike Hollow Knight, which is all Lore, Silksong is actually negative Lore.

[lapis creek]

but these bugs existed at a lower level of sapience for a while

[sinful nimbus]

PK's tablets usually say flowery stuff about how Hallownest is the last kingdom etc etc because he was hubristic and was genuinely anticipating that to be true

"No world beyond" is kinda flowery language but it is true on some level if it practically kills you upon leaving

The Pale King's own personal tablet hidden in the throne room also corroborates it so its not like propaganda

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

[trail wagon]

is there any silksong? No

[sinful nimbus]

PK didn't really lie he was jus a loser

[foggy stratus]

Yeah but in the memory she can only recall her Dreamer Mask.

[craggy smelt]

I think if they have the capacity to accept things, like their Void nature, they must be able to experience denial as well
call it trauma, or repression... it's something like that

[sinful nimbus]

what did he die from then

I think its kinda weird but that seems the clear implication

[trail wagon]

So does that mean that Hallownest's bugs are granted minds differently from, let's say, Pharloom?

[trail wagon]

Oh that's right, she had that

[craggy smelt]

he seemed to be experiencing relief at the lifting of the burden of thought
those might just have been his last thoughts as he succumbed to the wastes

[lapis creek]

could have been anything else

[sinful nimbus]

the wind is no that deadly

[lapis creek]

fall damage

exhaustion

[trail wagon]

Yeah, perhaps. We don't actually know if the Knight loses their memory tho

[lapis creek]

maybe he got bitten by something

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom evolved it naturally it seems

[trail wagon]

TK isn't really... wordy

[foggy stratus]

But it must have been the wind!

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest has some natural minds too

[trail wagon]

not talkative

or thinkcative for that matter either

[sinful nimbus]

That's not reflected in the dnd

[craggy smelt]

TK killed him on the way in

[trail wagon]

Hollownestians are dumb aparently ahaha

[sinful nimbus]

Like cmon we have him thinking about losing his mind and that's his last thought and he's a corpse like

[lapis creek]

you cannot literally need pk's beacon to maintain basic biological function

[sinful nimbus]

That's why I said it was weird

Magic essence BS don't think about it

[trail wagon]

Maybe he got frozen? Fried? Killed by some bug

[sinful nimbus]

Its final thoughts are about losing its mind from leaving the beacon though

[opal cliff]

could that thought not have been preserved or something because all subsequent thoughts would just be animalistic

[sinful nimbus]

Its like like "Please don't eat me"

[trail wagon]

maybe

[craggy smelt]

they do, i think it explicit says that in the achievement for Void heart
and WL mentions it being transformed by revelations
recovering its past was the catalyst for the Void heart

[sinful nimbus]

Dream nail reads animalistic thoughts

Also its like right on the border

[opal cliff]

are t they just ...

or is that just the boidcrawlers

[sinful nimbus]

Is the implication that it took one step outside Hallownest and immediately got eaten by some random centipede or something

[opal cliff]

abyss creepers

whatever theyre called

[sinful nimbus]

There are very few ...s

Most animals are like basic thoughts like "Danger, light, safe" etc

[trail wagon]

oh yeah, it says "Remember the past and unite the Abyss."

unite??

[craggy smelt]

refers to them uniting the Void under their will

all the Void shit is down there

[trail wagon]

Oh no.. ASKJHKDFJSDKFJSHDFKJSHDF... King..sdfksjdflksjvwoiawu59839038u!@!H#!KJ#kjsdf.. no min--- 67... mind...

[lapis creek]

if i went to a place called howling cliffs in real life my main concern would be the cliffs and not the howling

there are definitely ways to get severely injured

[sinful nimbus]

What did he fall from

floating platform?

then as he died he lost his mind?

like this doesn't seem like the implication idk, the tablet mentions leaving deliberately

He's not the only one

[craggy smelt]

if not from the mind loss itself, then I'd imagine him just succumbing to the general trials of navigating Hallownest in its current state
not like one specific thing that took him from healthy to dead in one go
dude got shredded trying to leave the kingdom and died as his mind fled, relieveing him of the burden of higher thought

[sinful nimbus]

It just seems weird that the death coincidentally occurred at the border

[craggy smelt]

well, any further and you wouldn't get that king's idol

[lapis creek]

im not saying he fell for sure but if you're really questioning the risk of that that's hilarious to me

[sinful nimbus]

Why did he want to leave the kingdom if he was devoted to the king and presumably read his warnings

[craggy smelt]

he fell trying to get all the Essence from the dreaming root like I do every time

[sinful nimbus]

ts a giant plothole

[buoyant flume]

So is this how gorb died?

[lapis creek]

thats a great question

[craggy smelt]

maybe he thought the idol would be enough

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like there's much above him besides the aforementioned floating platforms

if it was further in I'd agree

[craggy smelt]

I think it would be a neat story element, if some traveling bugs kept a portable beacon somehow to preserve their minds in the wastes
some magic, some little piece of a wyrm or a kingdom

[lapis creek]

maybe he only broke one leg and only collapsed when he reached the big open space

we dont really need to write fanfiction for how this happened i have no idea how it happened

[sinful nimbus]

pale ore

[sinful nimbus]

u see how its convoluted no matter what though right

[lapis creek]

no

[sinful nimbus]

you have to make up like a random semidetailed backstory that completely ignores the preceding tablet and dream nail dialogue

[lapis creek]

no i dont have to make up a backstory i just have to accept that hes in a dangerous place that could cause him to develop injuries that eventually caught up to him

[buoyant flume]

Makes sense I guess

But then why is naulmaster Mato there or Oro I forgot

[spark valve]

it's the severance thing with helly trying to leave then turning back around then trying to leave again
leaves
reverts to base mind
drawn back into the beacon
leaves
reverts
etc

[sinful nimbus]

that aren't reflected in the dream nail dialogue nor is there any hint of them

[lapis creek]

the point that it has nothing to do with the dialogue is something ill acknowledge

[sinful nimbus]

it just wouldn't be good environmental storytelling

[lapis creek]

i imagine the dream nail dialogue is a reflection of why he is there

like if he knows whats happening to him would you say he wants to lose his mind

and if so doesn't it make sense that in his dying moments he is thinking about his goals and not the internal bleeding/wind/exhaustion that is stopping him from achieving them

i dont even think its that out of scope that he got bit by some vengeflies on the way there or something

[sinful nimbus]

It kinda reads like a description of whats happening to me

Idk in the context of reading the tablet immediately beforehand I just think that'd be weird

[lapis creek]

do you agree with this

cause i think it's questionable but probably the only thing that makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

i think that's possible, could also be that he just didn't believe the tablet or something

[lapis creek]

i got the impression that he was seeking release by escaping

maybe he is in the process of losing his mind and it is a description of what's happening, but to conclude that's what killed him is too far imo

and i just dont get the environmental storytelling thing. like if the beacon works as I've described how would you environmentally storytell that differently

apart from just deleting the guy

[sinful nimbus]

I would probably tweak the dream nail dialogue and give more indication of physical harm (although the latter isn't really something HK does often)

[lapis creek]

im just scrolling through the dream nail locations page on the wiki rn and reading the dialogue

there are plenty of corpses that have dialogue about something they were doing or attempting to do that just has nothing to do with how they died

or well by "nothing" I mean a guy who was killed by some dirtcarvers and thinking about how they couldnt build the tramway

for example

[spark valve]

yeah this is a fairly common thing

[sinful nimbus]

I meaen he mentions the nest rejecting and stuff

[lapis creek]

like theres a relationship but cause of death is something you can infer from the general atmosphere ykwim

[spark valve]

hence

[edgy nebula]

whats the lore relevance of that big underworks guy inside the broken pipe near the pontiff in whispering vaults 🤔

[sinful nimbus]

this is too goofy to be a possibility

[lapis creek]

i mean he is facing back inward i cant really explain that

but it is goofy

[spark valve]

I can

[lapis creek]

i do think it's a coincidence that he died that close to the edge though

otherwise more bugs would

[spark valve]

well

it's not like many bugs would be leaving

[lapis creek]

i actually dont know how many there are in that area in general

[craggy smelt]

got a screenshot of the guy in question?

[lapis creek]

wait im stupid it does make sense if he is just now believing the tablet

[edgy nebula]

this guy, always found him really funky and randomly placed

he even gets a needolin ghost that cant be fair

[craggy smelt]

just some unlucky Underworks bug, I suppose

maybe got stuck there after working on the exhaust organ

I could see some bug higher up saying 'alright, it's all set up, turn it on' and starting the organ working without checking or caring if the workers building it had all gotten to safety

[buoyant flume]

poor guy

[fallow spade]

Also subnautica 2 released!

Silksong sea of sorrows looks different?

[olive rune]

geo is bugs shells

[olive rune]

nice theory, on little problem, the knight isn't just mask and void

[idle mesa]

are they not

[olive rune]

no

lol i missed a lot

[exotic pendant]

there is a bit of cloak

[pearl nest]

What's the lore behind on why sea of sorrow is not coming tomorrow?

[coarse tinsel]

The abyss creature seems to appear where lifeblood and void exist in the same space.
( In the abyss to the lifeblood core and in godhome where there is the pure vessel and YOU ( the shade lord )
So uh when we go into the sea of sorrow DLC in our act three save files....
Do you see what worries me

[glacial warren]

Technically it is just Void and a mask with a smidgen of Soul animating it.

[exotic pendant]

THIS COUNTS AS MEMEIN-

[pseudo narwhal]

I thought vessels also have some of a shell? Or how TK would be able to hold the everbloom?

[foggy stratus]

Its basically just Void contained in an outer shell.

[craggy smelt]

I don't think there's any lore connection between Void and Lifeblood
I think TC just wanted to put the Lifeblood chamber somewhere secret and out of the way
though I am curious as to whether SoS content changes based on when you access it, be it Act 2 or 3
whether the state of the Wormways has any effect on things

if we run into Zylotol's master and she's still alive, will that change things, etc.

(I have prepared multiple saves for this reason...)

[deft monolith]

also in a room in Godhome for some reason

[twin dragon]

It is likely a higher being

that's why it has a dedicated room

[fading shard]

honestly yeah likely

[buoyant flume]

Well then why's is it connected to dream essence on God home?

[trail wagon]

are they?

where was that said

[low oracle]

Not necessarily shells, but fossilized remains.

[trail wagon]

It's super weird to use pieces of your kingdom's inhabitants as currency anyways...

Imagine buying bread for 5 bucks made of human flesh

[low oracle]

Well......Pale King is kinda efficient, not creating the currency but just using what he already has.

[trail wagon]

where does it say that?

I might've missed

[trail wagon]

I mean newly killed bugs aren't fossilized also?

[low oracle]

Echo Chamber stuff, so I don't know. Maybe in an interview?

[trail wagon]

I've never heard anything about that

[low oracle]

I don't think it's their fossilized remains...

[trail wagon]

I've always thought it was just a gameplay thing

[trail wagon]

what about tiktiks?

[low oracle]

It is, which is why rosaries are so much more logical.

[trail wagon]

They don't seem intelligent enouch to be able to purchase something

[low oracle]

Geo is inherently kinda stupid.

[trail wagon]

That's what I was driving at in the message I sent, saying that HK is first and foremost a video game

A lot of mechanics are there because without them the game aspect wouldn't make sense

So not literally everything happening on the screen has to have a lore explanation

As an argument against the idea that TK has a capacity to revive in game

[low oracle]

Silksong does this far better, with religious currency and value, so only sentient bugs collect them.

[trail wagon]

I mean I don't necessarily think it's totally impossible, but imo it's a bit silly to try to explain how every time TK dies it's actually canon and it's void collecting the remains, teleporting to the last bench and restoring the knight idk

[low oracle]

That's stupid anyway, considering Hornet can do the same. Their shade would exist, but not their shell.

[olive rune]

ya ig

also there are theories that geo is from before the pale king somehow

[trail wagon]

Imo it's just lore larping

[olive rune]

idk how they work but divine is an example

[low oracle]

Anyways, bye.

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I completely agree, right

[rotund pulsar]

Question. Do bugs close their eyes in this game? Not sure I remember anyone opening their eyes other than white lady from the first and she's not a bug. Also in the act 3 ending || hornet's eyes widen when she sees ghost so perhaps they can close but it's just a speculation of mine ||

[edgy nebula]

some bugs do, e.g shakra, but alot of bugs dont

[sinful nimbus]

You can see it a bit more closely in official promo art and whatnot, vessels and the pale king are drawn with empty sockets where Hornet has them filled in, so her eyes are probably just black. I'd assume most bugs just have black eyes but a recent patch removed Zote mentioning eyes so it could depend on the species

[edgy nebula]

im pretty sure iselda also has animated eyes but i may be misremembering

[rotund pulsar]

Oh, I think she does too

Forgot about her

[rotund pulsar]

Now that you mention it

[rotund pulsar]

Perhaps. I get the vessels but the pale king have empty eye sockets is strange

[sinful nimbus]

freaky god trying to mimic the average bug

[trail wagon]

I don't think they widen

It looks like she's just lifting her head

changing the angle

[trail wagon]

guuuys how were Pilgrims meants to learn the Threefold melody if the Vaultkeeper's part is not to be shared with any bug other than a keeper?

[sinful nimbus]

I think Cardinius is meant to say that the psalm cylinder itself is reserved only for the pontiff and they could've taught pilgrims the melody or whatever

That's not really what he says but that's the only way it would really make sense

[grave stream]

Is ThreeFold Melody the song they sung

[sinful nimbus]

Yea ascending to the cradle was the endpoint of the pilgrimage

[grave stream]

i mean the song the slaves sung

slave pilgrims

[sinful nimbus]

Presumably not the only one

[trail wagon]

No

It's about the melody

[trail wagon]

I think it would make sense for it to be that

[sinful nimbus]

I'm aware I was saying it was probably a mistake writing wise and the devs meant something else

[trail wagon]

Because why else would they lock access to the GMS' cocoon behind it?

I think the point of the statues is to evaluate the capablities of the Pilgrim and if they have learned the melody and are able to sing it properly they're allowed into the Cradle to sing it

I guess it's the most sensible explanation I see personally

[grave stream]

Then what was the point of ventrica

I assume it's blocked off because GMS broke stuff

(There's a map stand right next to it on the other side of rubble)

[trail wagon]

Well I don't think it's for Pilgrims

[grave stream]

well they're not very locked off

[trail wagon]

I mean at some point travels were banned

[grave stream]

I don't think the weavers were paying themselves money to ride the ventrica

[trail wagon]

Not sure why they wouldn't turn them all off tho...

[trail wagon]

I don't think it was built during the Weaver era personally

It looks much more in line with the cogwork core stylistically, which was built by Acrhitects during the Conductor era

[grave stream]

can you tell me the timeline

[limpid summit]

Yes

[trail wagon]

No.. 😭 😭😭

ahahahahah

[grave stream]

i know gms era and weaver era and then gms era the sequel

[trail wagon]

I wish someone could tell me the timeline lol

[grave stream]

As an image please

a literal timeline

[trail wagon]

GMS -> Weavers -> Conductors -> GMS (?)

Kinda like that

[limpid summit]

Pre-GMS, GMS, Weaver, Conductor, Haunting

Yes

[grave stream]

pre-gms? like ancient times?

i'm sorry my silksong lore is VERY rusty

[limpid summit]

Pre-GMS there were isolated groups like the snail shamans, the Skarr, the Karak, maybe the Verdanians and Nyleth who lived in what would be Pharloom

No no it’s chill

[grave stream]

ah

[limpid summit]

GMS came in and we at least have evidence that she fought Khann and Karmelita

[grave stream]

i associate Pharloom with citadel for some reason

Completely wrong idea

[trail wagon]

So GMS started the shi off -> the Weavers took over and put GMS to sleep -> then died and passed the Cidatel onto the regular bugs who love injecting silk into themselves -> the GMS realized that this is op cause now she has a whole-ahh kindgom of almost literal puppets

[limpid summit]

She ascended Weavers to be her daughters but (as far as we know? they grew tired of their vapid existence just playing music and worshipping her, seeing it as a “web” they needed to break free from

Some (like Herrah and the rest of the Deepnest weavers) fled

[trail wagon]

Honestly I largely blame the game's narrative for it. I feel like most people can't really get what the game is even about on their first playthrough without digging very deep

[limpid summit]

The rest stayed and created things like Eva and the snare setter to beat her, “all ending in failure” except the Citadel

[limpid summit]

True…

Another HK point

I was confused about the timeline for months and the wiki is still wrong

[grave stream]

Quest system is the worst thing ever

you gave me a directive then didn't direct me

[limpid summit]

The Weavers ruled it, drawing down bugs to help them play the music

[grave stream]

its all fetch quests

[trail wagon]

I literally found out yesterday that APPARENTLY all of the Citadel's pipes lead to this thing in the Cradle

[trail wagon]

Like I bet 90% of players at the VERY least did not even notice that

[grave stream]

Silk is all-purpose

[limpid summit]

They eventually stretched themselves thin and started fading, leaving the rule to a class they created called the Conductors

[sinful nimbus]

truth nuke

[trail wagon]

huh?

[limpid summit]

The conductors helped out for a time and even made the Cogwork core to sort of automate the citadel but they were greedy bastards (weavers weren’t much better) so they put silk inside them to make themselves immortal and other bugs to work forever

[grave stream]

silk is like super-substance so they have pipes directly at the thing

[limpid summit]

This activated the microplastic silk that had been raining down from GMS’s cocoon in the Citadel and why am I still yapping

[trail wagon]

So aparently the Citadel used to be built of stone which is what the statue of Pious Isamor says

[sinful nimbus]

I blame 90% of the game getting a reputation for having super obscure unknowable lore on Weavenest Atla getting no spotlight despite being extremely important (The other 10% is HK fans not reading)

[trail wagon]

But since then they've made everything glided

And the final stage they were planning to achieve was automatization, apparently

To make the Citadel truly eternal

But that was never finished

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that I didn't even know where the entire pipe system was leading, and I would still not know what the thing I showed on the picture is if someone didn't tell me the sprite name

Like I'm sorry what is that

Why not add like a separate room or some kind of note about that, there's literally nothing 😭

[grave stream]

circle

[trail wagon]

square

[grave stream]

semi-circle*

[midnight reef]

The pipes in the citadel are intended for two uses, based on what is seen in the game, and what was cut
the primary one is carrying the song of the choir to GMS, hence all the pipe assets being "song pipe" irrc
another use is carrying air/steam, as seen in the disabled updraft in the first room of the Cradle 3:

[trail wagon]

Well, as I said, none of that can be derived from the game really

[trail wagon]

I don't think it should be mandatory to delve into cut content and sprite names in the game files to know how things work

[sinful nimbus]

It can its just weirdly obscure

Bellveins seem similar

[midnight reef]

Asset names technically arent cannon, but it makes sense, and nothing really suggests otherwise

[trail wagon]

What suggests that the pipes carry the song in the game itself?

[midnight reef]

The song of the choir needs to get to GMS somehow

[trail wagon]

I might've missed something

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom's pipes lead up to it iirc and it would explain how sound travels throughout

[trail wagon]

Also there's not really anything pointing at the Cradle being the place where they all lead

[midnight reef]

the design of the citadel...

[trail wagon]

?

[midnight reef]

sorry thats so crunchy, I dont know the room number off the top of my head

[trail wagon]

True, but don't they also lead to other towers?

And we don't really see any openings where the song would get into the pipe

[sinful nimbus]

Ballador's alarm clock

[foggy fractal]

lace 2's room has a lot of them but I think its a bit hard to see due to the blur

[trail wagon]

I would say that's also not a great example. The screenshot is SUPER brightened and in game you're fighting a boss over it

[sinful nimbus]

You can also see it in the act 2 cutscene innit

[trail wagon]

That too. There's a bunch of background elements you are quite unlikely to notice unless you pay super close attention

[trail wagon]

I'm not saying the pipes are not visible anywhere in the game

I'm talking about their purpose and how clearly it is conveyed in the game

I would imagine the pipes have to start somewhere so they would pick up the song from different parts of the Citadel and transfort it to the Cradle. This would serve as their connected outlet

[blissful harbor]

these cutscenes are gorgeous
give me a HK tv show now

[trail wagon]

But I'm pretty sure there's not a single spot in the Citadel where we can actually see the pipes in the rooms picking up the sound

[lapis creek]

im imagining hornet staring directly at the camera while saying she will remain a daughter of hallownest

[midnight reef]

Assets from Library_13

[trail wagon]

Also, how are some pipes used to put out exhaust from the Citadel while others are used for different purposes? That means they're not connected, I reckon?

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I get that

[midnight reef]

the pipes clearly lead up towards GMS in the majory of the structure

[trail wagon]

Again, what I said was that I feel like the game should convey that better

Where do the pipes carrying the exhaust lead?

[foggy fractal]

I mean silksong could've conveyed a lot of things better slabfly entries for one

[trail wagon]

what's wrong with the entries? 👀

[foggy fractal]

makes Hornet racist

[trail wagon]

Idk if that's not what is supposed to be conveyed tbh 😭

Although I kinda agree, it reads pretty badly

In HK universe I feel like most tribes are quite racist so wouldn't be surprising

[foggy fractal]

thats the thing though
its kind of just a 180 out of nowhere for Hornet that's never really addressed or expanded upon

[trail wagon]

also it's been discussed here previously, but that's a particle from the announcement trailer

It's a Steel assasin particles

[trail wagon]

I mean the fact Hornet doesn't canonically kill the broodling it may mean she doesn't hate the flies as much after learning about their past

[foggy fractal]

then it can definitely be conveyed better that's for sure

[lapis creek]

what did she learn about their past between killing broodmother and speaking to broodling

[foggy stratus]

Maybe Hornet realized just how racist she was and vowed to be better. Or its just TC trying to 180 Hornet into not being racist. I dunno.

[foggy fractal]

all we get is With this one vanquished, I hope to have sped the end for that jail and its distasteful order.

[trail wagon]

They were cursed

[trail wagon]

They have comitted some sin

[lapis creek]

when does she learn this

[foggy stratus]

Probably like the second least racist entry tbh.

[trail wagon]

I forgot

🙂

[lapis creek]

i think old penitent tells her

i could be wrong

[trail wagon]

yeah, true

Or might eb

[lapis creek]

anyway i dont think theres a concrete storyline for what she learns about them, or when

[trail wagon]

I shall speak about this again

[trail wagon]

Not enough people appreciating the detail

The mechanism on pic 2 is supposed to be used for the bench that is no longer functioning

[trail wagon]

True true

[trail wagon]

Similarly to this

[foggy fractal]

man those stone pillars really are everywhere

[trail wagon]

what if

Team Cherry just didn't want to redraw them

[foggy fractal]

maybe who knows

[trail wagon]

I think we MIGHT be looking a bit too much into certain things

I'm especially convised of that after they called the HK universe a "silly bug world"

[foggy fractal]

what certain things
the slabfly entries ?

[lapis creek]

wasnt there mention in acmi of pillars holding up the world

[foggy fractal]

don't make me read through all of acmi just to find that bro 😭

[lapis creek]

hang on

obviously this didnt persist, it's abyss all the way down

[foggy fractal]

what was the consensus that the pillars again? stone citadel stuff? we do see citadel things carved into the stone

[lapis creek]

if it had actually been pillars holding up the world it wouldve been a bit on the nose

as a visual metaphor

[midnight reef]

well yeah its a metaphor

they dont litterally hold up the world lol

[lapis creek]

i just dont know what they hold up

[foggy fractal]

they do hold up purt ducts tho

ducts is like 25% made out of those pillars

[lapis creek]

theyre also not distant pillars

theyre just pillars

[midnight reef]

the ducts seem far older than the Citadel

I have no evidence to back this up, but

in reality they're actually the last real area added to Silksong

[foggy fractal]

how many areas has the pillars

[lapis creek]

idr is the abys on the acmi map

[foggy fractal]

like the devlopment maps?

[lapis creek]

yeah

[foggy fractal]

yeah abyss is there

[lapis creek]

when

[foggy fractal]

starting from april 2022 you can see its like just outlines pretty much

[lapis creek]

i see

wait a second

i wonder where fleatopia was before ducts

and if the reqs for silk and soul changed a lot towards the end of development

[trail wagon]

No, I mean other deeper stuff