hk-lore

[brisk venture]

[lean trench]

yall what does completing the ritual do lorewise

like what happens to grimm and the other peeps

do they just dip

[molten wing]

They move on, most likely to another dead kingdom, ||not Pharmloom because it’s dying, not dead||

[lean trench]

oh

[bold night]

now i have to delete my entire account

[lean trench]

yall who is the guy that jumps hornet at the end of the p5 ending

[neat kite]

i think The Hollow Knight

[lean trench]

doesnt hornet wait outside of the temple

so how does thk get out

wait nvm

the door is wide open

also does that mean thk is still infected

[loud crater]

No it doesn't.

[fading crane]

The millions of vessels:

[hot lily]

they won't fight Hornet

[neat kite]

also Radiance was dying and she was put in position in first place

[loud crater]

The entirety of Hallownest and Deepnest he was saving:

[loud crater]

Doesn't excuse what she did.

[indigo venture]

Radiance wasnt dying

[neat kite]

i mean technically moths are to blame, but PK was catalyst

[neat kite]

being forgotten is only death that matters for dream higher being

[indigo venture]

Still not death, only metaphorically

[neat kite]

only death that matters isn't a metaphor

[indigo venture]

Plus we see Radiance bite it in two different endings in a more, painful death

So they can very much die, which is why I dont consider being forgotten death, its being sealed away

[neat kite]

well, being forgotten is also a death, Absolute Radiance is result of Worship/Attunement, being forgotten is her fading

[neat kite]

Seer says it is Sealing away forever basically equivalent to functional death

she needs mind space to exist in, otherwise she will die

[indigo venture]

Yes but its not actual death

[neat kite]

not excusing her or anything

[indigo venture]

Actual death would be how we see Rad die in DnM and EtV

Its a metaphorical death

[neat kite]

it is death in every way that matters

[indigo venture]

Except actual death

[neat kite]

even if it is, it is still deaths because she will be sealed away forever, which is like hell/afterlife but isolated

[indigo venture]

Because Radiance will just be stuck around in wherever being forgotten gets them

Not actually just getting ripped to shreds as we see in DnM and ETV

[neat kite]

i don't think you are getting my point, Seer disagrees, she believes actual death is not real death because dead can be honored and remembered, but what is forgotten is lost and sealed away forever

[neat kite]

that's alternative death but still, you are repeating your arguments but they don't change my point

what is remembered is never lost, that's recurring trope across both games

[loud crater]

A dream being needs a dream space to exist in. Without being remembered they have no place to exist. Not having a place to exist is just death in a fancier font.

[neat kite]

thank you

but it is still wrong what she did, why couldn't she just reappear in moth's dreams?

i made whole lot of theories about it

i should make another one

gtg

[fading crane]

Being forgotten and being consumed by the Void

[neat kite]

well, yea, because things consumed by void can't be preserved or have influence in dream realm

[neat kite]

good to see you here

[fading crane]

Thank you!

☺️

[neat kite]

how are you doing

[neat kite]

i have question to ask you

do you believe that Mister Mushroom is a Higher Being?

[fading crane]

Very fine ❤️

[fading crane]

Mr Mushroom is described like a Herald
Herald is historically an official messenger or envoy who proclaimed royal news, arranged tournaments, and regulated coats of arms.
Mr. Mushroom is a being with great knowledge and withstands all the evils that plague Pharloom, but the lack of divine powers indicates that he is not a HB

[neat kite]

well, i agree with that synthesis, most don't

[fading crane]

Most don't?

[neat kite]

well, i had debate about it and opposing side refused to accept evidence, some are generally biased toward believing Mister Mushroom is a higher being

[fading crane]

Ah, yes, that things happen

[neat kite]

do you think Lifeblood Beast is Higher Being? i am kind of biased toward yes

[fading crane]

Within the Godhome, there is a recurring pattern: HBs have a certain degree of exclusivity.

• In the 5th pantheon, the Godseeker speaks about Unn, WL and PK (all hb)

• The statue of the Knight and the Radiance are in the Hall of Gods, but in a separate area, exclusively for them. Also, God of Lifeblood have a room

• God of Lifeblood, based on an image I saw, seems to be made of lifeblood, or rather, of its roots

This is the image I'm referring to.

[neat kite]

i agree with you, i have same conclusion

[fading crane]

Note: All HB are gods, but not all gods are HB
I can call that beast "God of Lifeblood" because it qualifies as one in Godhome

[fading crane]

🫶

[quasi dove]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-reply-ping-tag-gif-20344638

[neat kite]

what are you expecting in|| silksong : sea of sorrows||

[quasi dove]

I’m involving myself in the discussion.
The lifeblood creature isn’t a higher being because of their status or nature within godhome

What it’s doing in godhome is instead a mirror of their behavior in hallownest

The center is buried and hidden away, but we see cocoons grow and appear elsewhere

We don’t see vines leading to LLB in hallownest, but we do see this in godhome

So godhome is actually likley just showing us that all the cocoons are connected

[neat kite]

Godhome likely cemented LBB's connection to Dream Realm, and Lifeblood Beast likely wanted attunement

[quasi dove]

If you want to argue that LBB is a higher being, you could refer to their relationship with Joni, and their domain being a partial dream realm

[quasi dove]

Godhome is not relevant to anybody’s connection to the dream realm. The godtuner establishes a relationship with an entity and the seeker hivemind, nothing else

[quasi dove]

Several lesser beings are attuned within godhome. As well as a fair amount of higher beings

The nightmare heart, for example, is not treated in any special way.

[neat kite]

Godhome itself takes place in Dream Realm, it assumes that's how Lifeblood Beast reaches it because Lifeblood Chamber in Abyss is also seemingly in Dream Realm

[quasi dove]

If the lifeblood creature entered non-consensually then maybe?

[neat kite]

well, only higher beings that are attuned is Nightmare Heart through NKG and Absolute Radiance

[quasi dove]

But the seekers don’t have a reason “not” to attune

[quasi dove]

The tuner is what we use to get to bosses

[neat kite]

they did, they seemingly invaded godhome

[quasi dove]

Canonically it’s what’s attuning to the pale king, white lady, unn etc

[quasi dove]

I’d say that of zote

The point I wanted to make is that the tuner isn’t a entry key

[neat kite]

i am aware how it resonates with bosses mostly, Unn, PK, and WL is gods that Godseekers want to attune

[neat kite]

well, i agree

[quasi dove]

It’s just a radar and literaly anything that is a “blip” will appear in godhome

[neat kite]

well yeah, it resonates with beings of power, based on description

[quasi dove]

eg Zote’s rambling, a lifeblood creature under the whole kingdom

[neat kite]

maybe Zango and Zylotol who are plasmified will be key to seeing Lifeblood Beast

[quasi dove]

higher being status is a completely seperate moniker of a creature’s abilities.

[neat kite]

well, yea, but it is weird for Being that resides in Dream Realm and have power over real world not to be higher being

[quasi dove]

The radiance and Unn both spawned a race from dreams, the radiance being a living idea.

the pale king raised beast like bugs to sentience and loyalty by just being present, and is probably the strongest spellcaster in universe that we know of.

[quasi dove]

Dream powers are not technically special

[neat kite]

all Higher Beings we know of are connected to Essence, Soul or Void

[fading crane]

True

[quasi dove]

Besides the fact that we don’t really know what LBB does, I wouldn’t call Seer a HB

[neat kite]

well, neither is soul powers or void powers but on scale that Lifeblood Beast exhibits their dream powers it is special, since it mirrors infection

[quasi dove]

Soul, dream, and void powers are not relevant

Several creatures have one of these and are not Hbs

These are symptoms of other abilities - or of being a higher being

Not proof they’re a higher being

[neat kite]

they are, scale of its usage separates them from regular beings

[neat kite]

*pattern

[quasi dove]

Soul master by all means appears more powerful than LBB

The dreamers themselves (and seer) perform a greater feat of dream magic than LBB

[neat kite]

not really, if you attribute plasmification to LBB

[quasi dove]

That appears to be a result of experimentation

[neat kite]

i would say Charm manifestation and unique essence color as well as dream manipulation it performs is greater than Seer and Dreamer

[quasi dove]

Or is this a retcon argument

[fading crane]

Lifeblood Creature and gods of storm

[neat kite]

also Moths near radiance's statues have Glyphs that can't be read, Archivist noted that they depict Radiance, Pale Wyrm, White Lady, Lifeblood Creature and Unn

[neat kite]

me too

[quasi dove]

Charm manifestation happens in very many ways it’s hardly special

[neat kite]

depends on the instance

[quasi dove]

Many appear handmade

Known methods of charm creation:

Crafted by bug(s):
quickfocus, fragile charms, sharp shadow, Lifeblood heart, Weaversong
Environment over time:
deepfocus, thorns, sporeshroom, Hive
Dying wish:
dash/sprint-master, quickslash, Fury, Joni
Boon of a higher being:
Grimmchild, Kingsoul, Unn
Crest/Symbolisim:
DC, NMG, MoP, Gsong, Elegy
Moth/Dream Magic:
Dream Wielder, Dream Shield
Organically formed (living) charms:
Flukenest(deathwish) Lifeblood core(Environment), Glowing Womb(deathwish)

Shaman artifact: Created by (?)
Scatcher, Shaman stone, Soul eater

Unspecified:
longnail, HBlow, STwister, GSwarm, Steady body, Compass.

It’s really not that crazy

And lifeblood imo is environmental/biologial byproduct

As opposed to the boon of a HB

[neat kite]

how do you know Lifeblood Heart is crafted?

[quasi dove]

maybe Joni counts as one of those

Well it’s an amulet with lifeblood in it

[neat kite]

Aether Vivarium said it

[quasi dove]

drinking magic fluid versus magic fluid fountain

[quasi dove]

This is new information to me

[neat kite]

Spore Shroom is also made of living fungal matter

[quasi dove]

Yes

[neat kite]

it is recent video as well

do you want link and timeframe?

[quasi dove]

Sure

Either way charms aren’t relevant to higher being status

Very many things can create charms - as such there’s no reason for a HB to not be able to

[neat kite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiYRXQW_31Y

[quasi dove]

as opposed to all charms needing a HB

[neat kite]

40:20 is timeframe where she begins to discuss it

[neat kite]

that wasn't the claim made

[quasi dove]

???

[quasi dove]

Right but the point is that making a charm isn’t a HB feat

[quasi dove]

And this is crazy to me

It’s canonically a lifeblood core in a capsule that leaks lifeblood to then be used for consumption

[neat kite]

Lifeblood Core and Void Heart are only charms we receive from Memory/Dream

[neat kite]

i don't think it is handmade like you suggest, unless maybe Ancient Civilization or Moths made it??? that's why they have ties to culture?

[plush widget]

Whos this yall

[quasi dove]

A large dead snail shaman

[wanton zephyr]

Erm… are they.. dream?

[quasi dove]

It’s an object inside another object

[wanton zephyr]

At least I don’t remember voidheart being a dream thing

[quasi dove]

The property isn’t magical or mystical, it’s literally just seeping lifeblood, and the effect is what you’d get from seeping lifeblood

[neat kite]

i said memory too

[wanton zephyr]

It’s not memory either

[neat kite]

so what?

[neat kite]

what is it then?

[wanton zephyr]

It’s just the knight coming to terms with what they are

[quasi dove]

So it’s a physical thing of no magical or mystical property

[neat kite]

i mean what kind of experience is it?

[wanton zephyr]

A symbolism for the knight, now whole

[quasi dove]

Compare that to grimmchild

[neat kite]

how do you know that??

[quasi dove]

I’d also like to comment that we don’t necessarily enter the dream realm in the lifeblood sequence

[wanton zephyr]

Why does the experience matter
The charm manifest in real time, not inside a memory or a dream

[neat kite]

Lifeblood is mystical and magical in sense of it's relation to essence

[quasi dove]

That is exclusive to the abyss lifeblood sequence

Lifeblood as it acts physically is essentially a painkiller

Or a psychoactive substance maybe

[neat kite]

i think it does, especially when you make statement that it is not a memory, when it detains Knight's past from his recollection

[quasi dove]

In silksong, it’s more like a biohazard or disease

[neat kite]

dream-like state

[neat kite]

we also don't see essence there at all

[quasi dove]

Hornet can’t see essence

[neat kite]

exactly, proves my point

[quasi dove]

If she had the dreamnail, we would be able to note where essence does and does not appear.

[quasi dove]

Wdym

Hornet can’t see essence period, even if it’s there, this doesn’t mean essence definitely is or is not there.

[neat kite]

we only can't see essence in pharloom because we lack dream nail therefore we can't use lack of essence in pharloom to say that plasmium has no connection to essence

[quasi dove]

And lifeblood does not ever show a connection to essence - outside of the sequence with the LBB

[quasi dove]

I’m literally only talking about hallownest

Why would cocoons in silksong be different from cocoons in Hk

[neat kite]

"Lifeblood doesn't show connection to essence outside of where it does" you can make same argument about infection

[wanton zephyr]

I’m just saying that you don’t obtain the charm inside a dream or a memory
The knight obtain it in the physical world after they have remembered what they are

[quasi dove]

That’s not lifeblood doing that, that’s the LBB

and that’s if you think it’s a dream realm thing

[neat kite]

sure, we still get it because of memory as trigger

[wanton zephyr]

What on earth is the current argument anyway

[neat kite]

idk, he started it, this is ultimate semantic discussion

lol

[wanton zephyr]

No im serious what’s the topic

[quasi dove]

Whether or not the LBB is a higher being on merit of having dream powers, whether they have dream powers, and whether lifeblood in general has a connection to the dream realm

[wanton zephyr]

What’s a LBB

[neat kite]

i disagree with most of your arguments

[quasi dove]

lifeblood doesn’t have dream properties ever though. The LBB may or may not have abilities, this doesn’t make lifeblood itself a dream related substance

[neat kite]

Lifeblood Beast being a Higher Being, Lifeblood being connected to Dreams

[quasi dove]

Dreams and the dream realm are different

[neat kite]

this is semantic argument, you can make same argument about infection

[neat kite]

????

[quasi dove]

More or less everything is connected to dreams. If it can be remembered then it has a dream realm mirror made of dreams

[neat kite]

some connections are more relevant than others

[quasi dove]

Dream magic, manipulation, entering the dream realm, different things

[quasi dove]

For sure

[wanton zephyr]

Lol
Since we have literally nothing on the abyss creature
I can say that it might just be a big thing that used to live in the abyss until it got taken over by lifeblood and reanimated

[neat kite]

you mentioned silksong

[quasi dove]

The abyss creature and the lifeblood cocoons around hallownest are likley connected (physically)

[wanton zephyr]

Mmm
Doubtful
We don’t have info on those

[quasi dove]

In response to plasmium. Which behaves differently in an ecosystem likely due to experimentation, imo

[quasi dove]

The godhome LBB is connected to every lifeblood cocoon in godhome

We watch vines spread to pantheons including p5 from their room

[wanton zephyr]

The abyss creature is so disconnected from any piece of lore we have
You can speculate how you want but the only thing we know is that it’s there
Not what it does, what it relates to

[quasi dove]

It stands to reason this is a mirror of how the LBB behaves in hallownest

[quasi dove]

You are literally reading lore on it

[neat kite]

not really, either way it would be properties of Lifeblood/Liquid Lifeseed/Plasmium

[quasi dove]

Lifeblood doesn’t rampantly infect people in HK. including uninfected individuals, apparently

Whatever’s going on in wormways is wack as hell I feel

as opposed to a second infection

[neat kite]

we just didn't see it, hornet comments that she saw similar aberrations in hallownest

[quasi dove]

outbreaks would be surprising to me

And that’s why I mentioned a retcon argument

[neat kite]

i disagree, it was repressed

[neat kite]

it isn't really retcon in colloquial sense, just new piece of information got added

[quasi dove]

If you look at Joni and salubra they hardly portray lifeblood as a biohazard that can shut down an ecosystem

[brisk venture]

lifeblood is like totally outlawed by the pk

[quasi dove]

Salubra treats it like weed

[brisk venture]

So it just didnt get as much exposure

[quasi dove]

it’s “taboo”

Joni is a weirdo hippie

or prophet or something

and people who use it don’t have concerns about being infected

Eg salubra and Hunter

Presumably Colo warriors

Whoever would buy/sell a lifeblood charm to/from salubra

This is performance enhancing drug talk

[neat kite]

well yea

[quasi dove]

Not ecosystem killer talk

[neat kite]

we just didn't see it's effects in large amounts over time

[quasi dove]

That’s also possible - as is the possibility that whatever the fuck plasmium experiments did were irresponsible and more severe

If lifeblood was half as concerning in HK as it is silksong it wouldn’t be a commodity

[neat kite]

wdym, that's possible?? we literally didn't see it

[wispy cape]

all they did was plant the seeds and inject it into the bugs in the wormways

[quasi dove]

Fleas even sell us the stuff in the original trailer

[quasi dove]

wdym

[neat kite]

we didn't see it's effects in large amounts over time

[quasi dove]

Lifeblood being a biohazard isn’t a unknown being revealed, it’s a new event entirely

[neat kite]

still not a retcon in colloquial sense

[neat kite]

yeah, i doubt they did it in moderation

[quasi dove]

It is if we assume that lifeblood always acted this way in hallownest

It also raises the concern that hornet helped them with this

[neat kite]

we don't know because we didn't observe every single one of it's qualities

[quasi dove]

The population that is familiar with lifeblood has no problem with lifeblood

[neat kite]

i mean Joni might be in comatose state because of Lifeblood

[quasi dove]

at least when Compared to its actual potential

[quasi dove]

I think it’s pretty clear that Joni just died peacefully no

[neat kite]

it was also taboo and heresy

[neat kite]

not really no

[quasi dove]

Taboo, not heresy irrc

and again, in comparison

[wispy cape]

joni is called heretic

[neat kite]

Joni was heretic, so yes

[quasi dove]

Ooh yes yes

[neat kite]

yes

[quasi dove]

that’s why I remembered prophet

either way lifeblood isn’t treated as a disease. It’s treated as a drug

[wispy cape]

pale king probably tried to wipe out/seal away lifeblood after establishing his rule to protect the bugs of hallownest

[neat kite]

i actually agree with this, this might be accurate

[quasi dove]

He would probably do this anyways if LBB is actually a higher being

[wispy cape]

imo, thats whats happening with the lifeblood door in the abyss, at least to a certain extent

[neat kite]

well, that was probably battle of blackwyrm

[quasi dove]

LBB appears to be the one deciding who gets in and out

The door is also opened with lifeblood lights

So I’d call that LBB made

[quasi dove]

What?

[neat kite]

so safe retreat ?

[quasi dove]

Battle of Blackwrym doesn’t mean an actual fight with an actual black wrym

It means battle of [location]

[wispy cape]

if pale king thought that lifeblood was extinct, what would make a better lock than lifeblood itself?

[neat kite]

i was kidding

[quasi dove]

Like battle of Stalingrad

[neat kite]

we aren't sure actually

[quasi dove]

Okay man

[wispy cape]

baseless as saying it was an actual wyrm

[quasi dove]

It’s either that or they fought a wrym

Also imo LBB is a giant butterfly anyways

[neat kite]

we don't know it's body

[quasi dove]

Correct

[neat kite]

baseless assumption

[wispy cape]

i would bet he had some stored away in his workshop knowing how hes like

[quasi dove]

butterfly is cooler than head with weird worm body that makes butterflies for some reason

[neat kite]

he has Silk Spools too, like he hoards them

[quasi dove]

Headcanon. Within reasonable assumptions and with no actual implication

[neat kite]

that's just your opinion, it could be caterpillar, or pupae or any other stage literally everything theoretically

[quasi dove]

They probably didn’t think it was extinct

[quasi dove]

I literally am not making any claim to contest any other claim

I’m saying a butterfly is cooler than a worm

[wispy cape]

i think butterfly is fun, hopefully we see the full critter is SoS

[neat kite]

okay, man sure

[neat kite]

i hope so too

[quasi dove]

HEADCANON

the shape of LBB is not relevant

If it had a shape, I hope it’s a butterfly

That’s it

[neat kite]

geez

[warm glade]

Hello

[wispy cape]

hii

[neat kite]

hi

[warm glade]

Sup

[wispy cape]

what lore questions might you have?

[warm glade]

No thing

But do you have hollow knight

I really want but idk where to get it from

And my cousins suggests it a lot to me

[wispy cape]

steam is the best place to get it

[warm glade]

Stream???

What is that

[wispy cape]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/367520/Hollow_Knight/

Steam

Hollow Knight

Hollow Knight Expands with Free Content
Godmaster - Take your place amongst the Gods. New Characters and Quest. New Boss Fights. Available Now!

Lifeblood - A Kingdom Upgraded! New Boss. Upgraded Bosses. Tweaks and Refinements across the whole game.…

Price

$14.99

Recommendations

480582

Metacritic

87

[warm glade]

That a cheap

The are a lot of types

Which is best for me

[neat kite]

all of them are free dlcs, latest has all of them

[warm glade]

Wdym

[neat kite]

DLC is Downloadable Content

[warm glade]

O

[wispy cape]

you only need to buy the game, the OST's are extra content you can find on YT

[neat kite]

yea

[warm glade]

What so can I get it no my Nintendo

on

[wispy cape]

yes, should just be in the nintendo e-shop

[warm glade]

Ok ty guys much appreciated but I need to go eat cya bye enjoy the rest if tour day

[fading crane]

[neat kite]

also asking the chat, what is your favorite Higher Being

[neat kite]

i believe LBB is higher being based on that tbh

[fading crane]

I would like it to be one

[neat kite]

i will just rank them 1. LBB(if they are one) 2.Unn 3.White Lady 4.Lord of Shades 5. Pale King 6. Radiance 7.Nightmare Heart

[brisk venture]

THEY.ARE.NOT.DLCS.

😭😭😭

[fading crane]

Void Given Focus

[neat kite]

?

[brisk venture]

They are updates

Not dlcs

[neat kite]

good choice

[brisk venture]

[neat kite]

no need for all of that

damn

[fading crane]

What do you think happened on the surface?

[neat kite]

i actually don't know, your guess is as good as mine

[quasi dove]

Wingsmould #5

[neat kite]

do you think Dirtmourth residents are still okay after EtV ending?

[fading crane]

In that ending, the Knight is at the bottom of the garbage. It shouldn't affect anything on the surface... I think.

[neat kite]

what about THK being free

[fading crane]

He is missing an arm and is weak.

[fading crane]

In any case, do you think the ETV ending is canon?

[neat kite]

"all endings are canon" team cherry themselves

[fading crane]

Yeah...

Well, my end canon is DNM

[neat kite]

i know Silksong doesn't and Sealed Siblings don't integrate well but i think they are just separate Timeline

[neat kite]

i agree, DNM/ETV are most canon ones

[signal marlin]

'most' canon isnt a thing

[fading crane]

What is your explanation for the presence of VGFocus outside of Godhome?

I will read that

[neat kite]

it's my opinion...? it is not up for debate

[neat kite]

i assume VGFocus has no reason to cause any more destruction and has enough control over itself, i have no idea why they wanted to kill Godseeker's, but Delicate Flower did it's job

[signal marlin]

it isnt up for debate because its wrong - canon isnt a metric with most or least. its a binary

[fading crane]

I mean in ||Silksong ending||

[neat kite]

well, i didn't mean it in that specific sense, i knew all that and said it anyways because it doesn't matter to me, you are just being pedantic

[neat kite]

well, i think it is TC's way of confirming both endings are canon, it is their way of reassuring fandom, i guess

[signal marlin]

its not pedantic - you are suggesting things can be more or less canon, they cant. hence why I said its wrong. you acknowledge its a misnomer as well

[neat kite]

it is a misnomer, but i didn't mean in that hyper-specific sense, some canon endings are more lore-integrated than others, that's what i meant, hence making your correction pedantic

[loud crater]

They don't kill Godseekers.

[neat kite]

don't tell me they are perfectly fine because of godseeker mode exists

[loud crater]

They just get used as a door. At most a very minor case of brain damage, but they're not dead.

[neat kite]

i think it is pretty destructive, i feel bad for them, how are they alive though?

[loud crater]

TK should reasonably have enough control not to seriously harm them.

Like with Hornet in DNM.

[neat kite]

so void shouldn't be volatile because it is unified under TK's will? that's agreeable

[signal marlin]

its not hyper specifc. its just what it means
you also didnt originally say "lore integrated", you said most canon. these arent interchangeable - which is why it is not pedantic. theyre fundamentally different

[pure inlet]

DNM and ETV are the canon endings that Silksong follows

TK’s death, THK and SS are the canon endings that Silksong does not follow

Nadia is right they are the same amount of canon

[neat kite]

but some are more lore-integrated and their canon-status is more solidified even though all of them are supposed to be canon

[pure inlet]

Lore integrated sure

Canon status no

Tc hasn’t officially gone back on their word

[neat kite]

When i said "most canon," i was clearly referring to the ending that feels like the "complete" version of the story, i meant it in colloquial/functional sense.

[pure inlet]

Anyway LBB isn’t a HB

In this channel

In SK lore maybe but I don’t like it

[neat kite]

we don't know but yeah, we have no reason to consider them one yet

[pure inlet]

True unlike mister mushroom

[neat kite]

you changed your name?

[pure inlet]

Who

[neat kite]

wasn't your name AppleEgg?

[pure inlet]

???

Idk what you mean

[neat kite]

i stand with this synthesis

[pure inlet]

Mr Mushroom is described as a herald sure

PK is described as a king so is ||Khann||

[neat kite]

your display name was AppleEgg, then you changed it to Let's Larp

[pure inlet]

I wouldn’t get anal about definitions

He does herald

[neat kite]

get what???

[pure inlet]

That’s not mutually exclusive with him being powerful

It’s just what he does

[pure inlet]

Anal-retentive

Excessively concerned with

Come on Nick

Wait didn’t you used to go by Nika

[neat kite]

oh, you meant pedantic...?

[pure inlet]

I guess you could say that yeah

[neat kite]

Nick feels better display name

[pure inlet]

Valid

Anyway

I have a question but it’s a Silksong question

[neat kite]

they are both good, but Nick is slightly more universal

[pure inlet]

So let’s move to SK lore

[neat kite]

okay, sure, if that's what you want, just no more weaver or runes please

[pure inlet]

Oh boy

[signal marlin]

"clearly referring" is a stretch - you had to redefine it afterwards. 'most canon' refers to legitimacy/canonicity. not completeness/integration

[neat kite]

it was clearly referring to ending that feels like the "complete" version of the story, because context of the conversation implies it

[pure inlet]

Do you think the context of TC saying “beings that exist above all others” in an AMA clearly implies that they are referring to beings that control Soul Essence or Void

[neat kite]

? we don't know context except in later game we get ||higher caste|| and ||fathomless being|| as overlapping terms

[pure inlet]

||Higher caste and fathomless beings|| are the same thing yeah

[neat kite]

well, yea, mostly

[pure inlet]

No like

They are

[neat kite]

same context, yeah

[pure inlet]

That’s how the conversation comes across

[neat kite]

yea, i agree, in retrospect it might have more nuance

[pure inlet]

However I think “higher caste” is often misconstrued to attribute direct rulership to HBs when really it’s just a way to put them in a class by themselves power wise

Because that’s the common thread

It’s not caste as in rulership

[neat kite]

||Higher Caste is attributed to Hornet too, Fathomless Being so contrasted to her so that's why i said nuance||

[neat kite]

let's more to sk-lore , spoilering is boring me

[signal marlin]

the discussion was about canon and timelines. most canon would then naturally follow that to mean canonicity

[neat kite]

words can shift meaning based on how a community uses them.

[signal marlin]

in general that can happen, however you would need to illustrate that, thats how the community uses it

[neat kite]

The community uses 'most canon' as shorthand for the 'True Ending' or the '112% Ending' all the time. In a game where the developers intentionally leave everything valid, the players use that phrase to distinguish between a partial resolution (The Hollow Knight) and a total resolution of the lore (Embrace the Void). It’s not about legitimacy, it’s about which ending encompasses the most of the game’s story.

even canonicity can't be treated as binary thing in context of Hollow Knight game and ||Silksong||

[signal marlin]

this doesnt illustrate whats needed - you need to show that "most canon" is actually used to mean that, not just that the concept of a true/complete ending exists

the latter is not whats being disputed

[neat kite]

It’s used as a qualitative descriptor rather than a quantitative one. Just like people say a movie is 'more of a masterpiece' than another, they use 'most canon' to describe the ending with the most narrative weight. You can see it in any 'True Ending' debate on Reddit or GameFAQs. We’re essentially arguing about whether I’m allowed to use a metaphor, and I think the context of our lore chat made the metaphor pretty clear...

[loud crater]

A true ending terminology debate?

Fun.

[neat kite]

you are admitting you know exactly what i meant, but you are choosing to police the specific words i used to describe it.

[fading crane]

I think that phrase refers to beings with divine powers.
Creating life, for example, puts you on a higher level.
Expanding minds puts you far above the rest.

[pure inlet]

Mister mushroom has those

I don’t want to get too into it but he has extremely powerful foresight and world sense

[fading crane]

Ah?

[pure inlet]

He’s a meta character as well to a degree but like he exists as a venerated character in universe

[fading crane]

I'm referring to powers capable of modifying/creating the environment or a characteristic of the creatures.

[pure inlet]

I don’t think that’s exactly a descriptor ||Nyleth|| and Isma do the same

[neat kite]

i agree with you

[pure inlet]

But Mister Mushroom creates mushrooms wherever he goes, and the Shrumals worship him

One could reasonably assume he might have created them

[neat kite]

not worship really

[neat kite]

likely biological offspring

[pure inlet]

Yeah worship

They don’t pray to him for guidance

[neat kite]

follow his path at most

[pure inlet]

But they see him as one who signals an Age’s end, and follow his path

[neat kite]

when do they prey to him

[pure inlet]

They don’t

He’s not that kind of being

He’s not going to save them from doom

That’s why they felt shielded by PK’s prescience

They venerate MM but he’s not like PK in that sense

It’s not in him to build up a society

Mentality wise

[neat kite]

since he is master herald, one could assume he is herald of someone, that someone is him, this mushroom is higher being

[neat kite]

i think that's what it takes to be higher being

[pure inlet]

Huh?

That guy doesn’t do anything

He has one line of dialogue

Just an old Shrumal

He’s not the herald of “someone”

[neat kite]

it is gold line, though, that is enough to put him above all others

[pure inlet]

Don’t be disingenuous

[neat kite]

i am joking, but you are using word wrong

[pure inlet]

Uh huh

[neat kite]

uh huh?

[fading crane]

Have sense

[neat kite]

??

[fading crane]

Idk

[neat kite]

wdym by have sense?

[fading crane]

Idk XD

[neat kite]

oh, ok then

[neat kite]

also i am discussing in #sk-lore maybe you want to join

[rich prawn]

Could Mr mushroom be in a similar situation to Hornet by any chance? A demigod who is forced to watch civilization rise and fall, but unlike hornet, Mr mushroom cant do much but share his wisdom and guidance, which even then he gives out conditionally

[indigo venture]

Hornet and Mr Mushroom's situations are not similar

[sand stump]

whats the topic

lemme read

[signal marlin]

masterpiece is a gradable concept - canon isnt. you cant analogize them. claiming its a metaphor also doesnt further anything, they need to be recognized and shared to work. as a whole, however, this still doesnt illustrate that most canon is specifically used in the way described

[late parrot]

If you kill an infected bug like myla are they saved or are they only save if you defeat the radience

[sand stump]

Dead

They're just dead, maybe some could have a chance of living after Radiance is gone but for the most part they'd live with extreme brain damage

[signal marlin]

this doesnt admit that also consider that you have afterwards stated what you meant

[late parrot]

Yea that's why I killed Myla maybe she can sing for her family or smth

[sand stump]

DAMN, I never had the heart for it

[late parrot]

You let her suffer?!

[sand stump]

Yes Bro!

I keep her in a schrodinger type paradox
I see her when shes infected and then never go to her again

So now she is both infected and not, we have no way of knowing till we go to the room

[neat kite]

We're just stuck in a loop because you’re being prescriptive and I’m being descriptive (using words the way people actually talk in fandoms). In a casual discord chat about a game with five endings, 'most canon' is just a way to weight narrative importance. If you don't find the metaphor useful, that's fine, but it doesn't change what I was communicating.

[neat kite]

At this point, we’ve spent so much energy on this that the heat death of the universe is 'more canon' than either of our theories. I'm going to assume we both understand each other now and leave the dictionary at the door.

[signal marlin]

its a loop because you havent substantiated that most canon is actually used the way youre describing

[hot lily]

what do you actually mean by "more canon"

[solid abyss]

i think they said further up

most narrative weight

[signal marlin]

serrara is here

and 🧀 🐶

[neat kite]

my and my friend were discussing it in conversation about which ending has more narrative weight or which ending was canon in other words so i shared which i thought was better contender, even though TC said all of the endings are canon

[neat kite]

I’m not a lexicographer, Nadiam. I’m a person talking about a video game. In fandom spaces, people use 'most' as a qualifier for 'canon' all the time to denote narrative importance. If you haven't seen it used that way, okay but me explaining my intent is the substantiation of what I meant in this specific conversation.

[solid abyss]

i've definitely heard people conflate the concept of a 'true ending' with what feels like it completes the story the most

and also obviously with which story is the most canon

but i think it's typically understood that those are two different uses of the term 'true ending' to mean different things

[neat kite]

yeah, i was trying to describe what i though was true ending with name 'most canon'

[signal marlin]

your intent explains your meaning but doesnt substantiate the usage of it

[neat kite]

a new name just used it in conversation, idk what else to tell you

[neat kite]

Exactly, thank you. I was using it as a synonym for 'True Ending.' Now that we’ve cleared up the 'Lexicon of Nick,' can we finally talk about the actual lore?

[hot lily]

ok...well the problem with that is, what defines narrative weight

[signal marlin]

and if youre making a descriptive claim about how its used, that needs evidence

[neat kite]

Serrara, what’s your take on Dirtmouth after the EtV ending? Do you think the Shade Lord is a threat to the surface bugs?

[daring ridge]

what does this even mean

[hot lily]

no, because it's fundamentally still the Knight despite what some people think regarding how the ending is presented

[neat kite]

which ones is more lore integrated to overall lore of hollow knight and silksong

[neat kite]

i agree

[hot lily]

the tones and themes of the ending do not override the character in question of who it focuses upon

[signal marlin]

what they said shows your usage of it is not correct

[hot lily]

in terms of compatibility with Silksong, ||Dream No More / Embrace the Void|| and perhaps also ||Sealed Siblings||

[neat kite]

us community did actually understand it with new name actually using it in convo, and my friend understood it from context

[daring ridge]

how would it be sealed siblings

[hot lily]

||seal-breaking bugs exist which would allow Hornet to be taken from the temple||

[daring ridge]

bro wha are you actually talking about

UMMM TECHNICALLY MOST CANON DOESNT MEAN THIS IT MEANS THIS!

[signal marlin]

anecdotes dont prove clarity - i didnt read it as that

[hot lily]

however it needs to also be mentioned that Silksong is not the only valid chronology of events

[solid abyss]

i dont really think 'most canon' and 'greatest narrative weight' are synonymous just because they can be described by the same two words

im trying to think of another example but its not coming to me

[daring ridge]

Was it not already explained? How di you not understand what most canon means in this context

[signal marlin]

explaining what you meant doesnt illustrate that its used in such a way

[signal marlin]

being explained afterwards doesnt matter, if anything, it shows that the ambiguity does exist

[daring ridge]

Most canon = most likely to be the canon ending, am i wrong

[signal marlin]

what youre questioning is the very thing in contention

[signal marlin]

yes

[neat kite]

If 'A new name' literally just said they've heard people use 'most canon' to mean 'true ending,' that is the evidence of usage. You're just choosing to label that usage as 'incorrect' because it doesn't fit your personal understanding, which is pedantic.

[daring ridge]

we are talking about which ending is most likey to be canon

genuinely

[solid abyss]

if I say "I trapped an orange butterfly in a jar, or in other words, I trapped the king in a jar" it would make no sense despite the fact that both of them can be called monarchs

[neat kite]

i don't think they are, ofc, but given context of conversation i was having we were discussing narrative weight and lore integration

[daring ridge]

Genuinely nothing burger of an argument istg, ERR YOU’RE USING THAT WORD WRONG ACTUALLY! CORRECT YOUR MISTAKE!

[signal marlin]

you need to establish common usage, not just any. this has always been the distinction and how meanings shift

[solid abyss]

idk if you presented it in this context originally but you kind of did here

[daring ridge]

do you understand what ‘most canon’ means

[solid abyss]

which is ok maybe i need to scroll up and see how you were originally saying it

[signal marlin]

yeah thats exactly why its a misstep to say most canon

[daring ridge]

Wat it is being used for in this context

[neat kite]

Serrara, that's a really interesting point about the|| 'seal-breaking bugs.'|| If Hornet can be freed from the Sealed Siblings ending, does that mean you think Team Cherry built ||Silksong ||to be ending-neutral? Like, no matter what we did in HK, the world finds a way to reset for the sequel?

[daring ridge]

so you understand what we mean by most canon and yet still you complain that most canon is being used wrong?

[signal marlin]

it doesnt exist. i know what they specifically mean, but again, the dispute is exactly surrounding that, so asking this doesnt further anything

[signal marlin]

again, i only knew what they meant after they explained it, this doesnt mean anything for the original use

[karmic isle]

Wait, orange butterfly?

Oh no.

NOT HIM

ANYONE BUT HIM

[hot lily]

absolutely not considering that ||the Knight is established by the time of Silksong to possess Void Heart||, which definitively eliminates ||at least The Hollow Knight ending and perhaps also Sealed Siblings||

[daring ridge]

im saying theres no reason to blabber about was most canon technically means

[karmic isle]

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-kirby-morpho-knight-roaring-knight-gif-7372168038196244553

[neat kite]

word canon is being used loosly here, on purpose, given that all are supposed to be canon

[karmic isle]

AAAAAAAAAAAA-

[daring ridge]

You know what it means so you understand what we’re talking about, theres no reason to argue about this

[karmic isle]

(And Fecto Forgo was no more)

[solid abyss]

i think her issue is that she is being made to believe that the meaning was understood by default, not that it was used in a way that is strictly wrong

[signal marlin]

you cant say "no reason" - to you, there might not be. however people have different interests and things of discussion. i think me and the other person have kept a well and civil discussion so its fine to discuss a topic if desired

[signal marlin]

well, again, the discussion is about the original use and meaning

whats clarified later doesnt matter

[daring ridge]

different interests? What are you talking about different interests for

[daring ridge]

im saying this dicussion is useless

[signal marlin]

different interests for things to discuss. you dont want to talk about it, others do

[neat kite]

you are only one who wants to discuss your logical absolutism

[signal marlin]

useless is too strong - things and being clarified and ambiguity is being exposed

[daring ridge]

things and being clatigied and amiguity is being exposed what does tha mean

[neat kite]

you value strict definitions and I value colloquial context. We aren't going to convince each other, and it's stalling the actual fun parts of the chat.

[signal marlin]

its not logical absolutism

[daring ridge]

either way this is still useless, you’re wining brcause a word is technically being used wrong

[solid abyss]

if somebody said a word and you thought they had used the word wrong, and then they began to insist that everybody uses it this way in everyday discussions all the time, you would be interested

[signal marlin]

im not insisting on any strict definition, just that its imprecise and ambiguous

[solid abyss]

regardless of whether it had been explained to you after the fact

it raises questions like

[daring ridge]

why does it matter if it’s “ambiguous”?

[signal marlin]

framing a discussion as "winning" misunderstands the point

[daring ridge]

I meant to type whining

[solid abyss]

should I have understood this? am I somehow incapable of having regular everyday conversations that everyone else can have?

[signal marlin]

because it leads to different reasonable interpretations

[signal marlin]

well thats unnecessary and rude

[neat kite]

well, in conversational context it made sense, before nadiam felt need to assert her pedantry, if person can understand what i am conveying, correction isn't necessarily because that just derails the conversation, which she achieved successfully

[daring ridge]

In this context, most canon means the ending that is most likely to transition into silksong

[signal marlin]

again, thats the very thing under contention

[daring ridge]

thats not all that ambiguous?

[neat kite]

you are essentially arguing for the right to be pedantic in the name of clarity.

[daring ridge]

i dont know how else we would discuss the hk ending that best transitions into silksong if talking about the hk ending that best transitions into silksong is ambiguous

[signal marlin]

im not insisting on pedantary - this reframing is really not helpful either

[daring ridge]

Like talking about citruses and being told off because citrus is an ambiguous term

[neat kite]

I think we’ve diagnosed the situation: Nadiam wants precision, the rest of us want the 'vibe' and the lore. We’ve reached a total consensus that we’re not going to reach a consensus.

[solid abyss]

if it did make sense that's true. but the thing is if you then begin to assert that people in general understand what you mean when you say certain things, and people didn't understand that initially, they have a reason to start asking questions

[signal marlin]

you dont use most canon, as ive stated

[solid abyss]

it's not inherently useless

unless you believe they should automatically take your word for it

[daring ridge]

but most canon in this context refers to the ending most likely to transiton into silksong

[solid abyss]

i don't know if that's what you believe

[late parrot]

What if masks come from an higher being too

[solid abyss]

it could be

[daring ridge]

’most canon’ literally fits wha we’re using as its definition perfectly

[neat kite]

it's not like language rules can be enforced? if other party i was talking to understood it, your correction is inherently lacking in value

[daring ridge]

maskmakers

[late parrot]

Silksongs is not an higher being as far as I know

[daring ridge]

i dont think any of the maskmakers are higher beings

[neat kite]

people? nadiam was originally only one i guess? person i discussed it with understood mee just fine

[signal marlin]

the point isnt about an enforcement of rules. for the latter, some people being able to understand something doesnt illustrate clarity or a lack of value

[solid abyss]

of course this is very clear after a long conversation but if you just said 'most canon' hours ago I definitely wouldn't have thought this was what you meant

[neat kite]

you could have asked for clarity? but you enforced dictionary rules, so you are wrong.

[daring ridge]

I dont understand how ‘most canon ending’ is hard to understand

[neat kite]

i mean i was having said discussion with a friend, correction is just rude and uninvited pedantry

[daring ridge]

yhe ending that is most canon, and how can we determine if an ending could have happened in canon or not? How well it transitions into silksong, so the ending that best transitions into silksong

[signal marlin]

the conclusion is a non sequitur - how i respond doesnt determine if its clear or ambiguous. and the idea of "enforcing dictionary rules" is a mischaracterization

[neat kite]

The issue isn't the questions, it's that once the meaning was clarified, the conversation stayed stuck on why the word choice was 'wrong' instead of moving back to the actual topic. We spent more time on the 'label' than the 'content.'

[daring ridge]

everyone understands it, the term matches what we’re talking about, how is ts still going on

[solid abyss]

this changes things somewhat i guess

[solid abyss]

it must be really easy for you to say this lmao

[daring ridge]

what other meaning could most canon even have?? Quite literally MOST CANON the ending tha is the MOST CANON

[solid abyss]

theres a reddit post thats many years old that most people here know about, where team cherry says that all of the endings are canon

[daring ridge]

am i misunderstanding that we all understand what most canon means?

[neat kite]

If you feel 'enforcing rules' is a mischaracterization, then we can just call it a fundamental difference in communication styles. You prioritize the removal of ambiguity, I prioritize the momentum of the discussion (that you were not part of). Since the ambiguity was resolved an hour ago, I'm going to follow the momentum and get back to what Serrara was saying about the Void Heart.

[solid abyss]

||of course in light of silksong this cannot be true under your definition||

[daring ridge]

in what definition of most canon is every ending canon

actually

they could be 🧐

[signal marlin]

largely in part due to your claim that words shift meaning and that most canon follows that

[daring ridge]

no actually

[solid abyss]

unless all we care about is hornet being able to get to pharloom which seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line

[daring ridge]

thk ending couldnt happen, but other than that the other endings could happen and mr mushroom ending has to happen

[neat kite]

Again you intruded our conversation, me and my friend understood that, you were rude and focused or technical correctness in conversation you weren’t part of

[solid abyss]

in the general sense of it being a part of the story

there is no one way the story goes

[signal marlin]

its a public server - its implicitly open to discussion

[daring ridge]

ok but like, for example the thk ending couldnt be part of the story

[solid abyss]

why not

[neat kite]

And your intrusion was optional

[daring ridge]

because in the thk ending theknight is sealed in the black egg

[solid abyss]

so what

[daring ridge]

therefore there is no knight to save hornet

Which happens in the game

[solid abyss]

in half the endings

[neat kite]

Nobody forced you into conversation you didn’t understand, so you aren’t working for clarity at all

[daring ridge]

i guess if you just count hornet getting to pharloom in the first place thk ending could hapen

[signal marlin]

optional, not improper

[solid abyss]

even if it doesnt happen though

does silksong need to happen for an ending of hollow knight to be canon

if so, why is that

team cherry's attitude seems to have been that all routes are valid

[daring ridge]

all of them were canon until silksong

[solid abyss]

they said they would make future content with that attitude in mind, and I don't really see a reason to doubt that it applies to silksong

[daring ridge]

silksong narrowed down which endings could or could not have happened depending on how you view what an ending needs to do to count as canon

[signal marlin]

voluntary participation doesnt follow to an invalid motive. and thats also a mischaracterization - i already said i read it and didnt interpret it that way

[neat kite]

Still rude and unwelcome

[daring ridge]

For example, if you think an ending is canon because it allows the path we go through in silksong, than certain endings like thk arent canon

So reeaallyy coming back to the conflict between nadiam and people, the term ‘most canon’ isnt vague, but instead our definition of what canon is

[solid abyss]

yes, and if you think this way you are ignoring evidence that has been stated to apply to future content

[solid abyss]

oh yeah now you want to go back to the conflict

no

really sit with this for a second

[daring ridge]

no i was just mentioning it

[hot lily]

...i'm out of here

[daring ridge]

Anyways yah i think just hornet getting to pharloom makes an ending canon because that means every ending is canon

[signal marlin]

youll probably have to further this

[solid abyss]

i thought the point was that nadia was being an asshole for repeatedly pointing out that your semantics are incorrect

[hot lily]

silksong is a sequel
it is not the only possible sequel

[daring ridge]

well you were arguing that our usage of the term most canon was vague in general but the vaguenesswas only caused because not all of us agreed on what made an rnding canon or not

[signal marlin]

weird point

[signal marlin]

there is seemingly different understandings of what canon exactly means yes

[daring ridge]

same mf complaining i was coming back to nadiam’s discussion

[solid abyss]

but here you seem to be saying that you believe what you were saying does literally apply under the definition that should apply by default

[neat kite]

Wait, Serrara, don't go yet. Your point about Silksong not being the only possible sequel is huge. It implies a 'multiverse' of canon which actually satisfies everyone's points. If Team Cherry views every ending as a branching timeline, then 'most canon' just refers to the timeline Silksong happens to follow. It makes the whole semantics debate a moot point.

[daring ridge]

i can change views over the course of an argument

[signal marlin]

TC already maintains this themselves

something something every playthrough is its own canon 🗣️

[solid abyss]

i think you had a better one before honestly

you cant convince me that certain endings are not canon because silksong doesnt follow

[daring ridge]

this whole convo has been so confusing what is goingon

[neat kite]

I think Serrara leaving says more than any dictionary could. We had a great lore chat going, but it got buried under an hour of semantic auditing. Nadiam, you're right that it's a public server, but that doesn't mean every technical correction is 'helpful.' A new name hit it on the head, it's not about the words, it's about the attitude. I’m going to take a break too;,hopefully, when the chat resets, we can talk about the game again.

[solid abyss]

but you were getting somewhere with the slander

i was starting to buy into it

[daring ridge]

Im saying that every endingis canon

[signal marlin]

serrara is a mystery

also u just brought it back up

[solid abyss]

A new name hit it on the head, it's not about the words, it's about the attitude
i am not conscious of having said this but i love hitting things on the head

[signal marlin]

i think currently its reasonable to 🚶🏽‍♂️‍➡️ on ‼️

[daring ridge]

so i think that the definitive canon ending of hk is any ending that allows hornet to reach pharloom

[signal marlin]

it depends what u mean by canon

under a standard definition
that applies to silksong, not HK

[daring ridge]

canon = could actualy hapoen

[neat kite]

I think you conveyed it, more or less

[daring ridge]

for a hk ending to be canon, it needs to allow the citadel bugs to capture hornet and take her to pharloom

[signal marlin]

yes so if its about what could happen, this wouldnt apply to HK, only silksong. for HK, all endings are canon, for silksong, select ones are

[daring ridge]

yes im saying all the endings are canon

[solid abyss]

i think this is closer to the way people typically say it

[neat kite]

Nadiam you are really performative and pedantic

[daring ridge]

this definition if what makes a hk ending canon means that tc saying tha every ending is canon is still true

[signal marlin]

thats unnecessary

[daring ridge]

How are select silksong endings canon?

[neat kite]

People don’t understand colloquial language anymore

[solid abyss]

and so it seems strange to say one ending is more canon than the other because both of them can be part of the story

[neat kite]

So was your intrusive correction

[daring ridge]

So conclusion is that the real most canon ending was the friends along the way

in both games any ending could happen

[neat kite]

Jolly understands it

We are just debating opinions where dictionary definitions don’t always apply

[signal marlin]

it largely depends the extent you want to incorporate HK and silksong

||voidheart is apart of areas of silksong, but not others. so you could be under the belief that all endings follow into silksong, but only some specifically go into TK with voidheart ||

[daring ridge]

what does tk stand for

[signal marlin]

well, again, its a public server. theres a distinction between a character critique and someone saying you didnt use a phrase correctly

[daring ridge]

and voidheart is the charm right

[solid abyss]

yes

[signal marlin]

the knight

[daring ridge]

how is the charm ||present in areas of silksong||

[signal marlin]

did cro not finish it

[daring ridge]

oh when you refer to the knight you mean the void

[solid abyss]

when she said areas of silksong she meant ||the ending where the knight appears||

of course an ending is not an area

if we want to be

pedantic

[daring ridge]

ohhh oh oh

[signal marlin]

[signal marlin]

or is it an area...

[daring ridge]

ok so
Broad canon:
Every hk ending is canon to silksong
More specific canon: silksong endings that require specific hollow knight endings to hapeb

[neat kite]

In that case character critique seems necessary for your development

[solid abyss]

sure but more specific canon doesnt necessarily mean it increases in canon-ness

[daring ridge]

yah ik

just that if that ending was the ending that had happened then it needs stricter conditions to be met

[signal marlin]

this doesnt respond to what was said

[neat kite]

I disagree

[signal marlin]

[neat kite]

Alright 👍

[marble burrow]

Question: does Void have a will or no? I thought it doesn't, and it's just chaos incarnate, but then I thought about the fact that the Knight is a vessel in which the Void had to hollow them out. But because of (Silksong Spoilers) ||the Knight showing compassion to Hornet when she fell into the Abyss, saving her, doesn't that show that nothing could ever truly be hollow? How is the Knight able to do what they did, if they were hollowed out by Void, only to show that they actually do have a will in the form of their compassion?|| Was it the fact that Knight gave the Void focus, in where they began to understand/feel something different?

[humble current]

Not all hk endings are canon to silksong

[signal marlin]

void does have a will

and it depends how you define and understand purity/hollow

it seems that PK wasnt intending for a vessel to have absolutely no will or mind

[marble burrow]

Was it because Pale King grew attached to the Pure Vessel?

They appear to be having a moment together at the end of PoP

[signal marlin]

PK took a liking to pure vessel. he didnt necessarily want to cause harm with the vessel project.

theres a common interpretation that pure vessel also liked PK and this caused it to lose purity

which is where it depends how youre understanding what purity means

[neat kite]

Ancient Civilization disagrees, you are wrong

[signal marlin]

a character disagreeing doesnt always matter

[marble burrow]

The way how I'd like to define it personally, is that for something to be truly hollow, it cannot have any meaning or desire - only purpose. Kind of like a bowl. A bowl itself has a purpose, but there's no meaning in the bowl. What you put in that bowl is what gives the bowl meaning, and the bowl's purpose has been fulfilled.

The vessels purpose, at least the Pure Vessel, was to contain the Radiance. Besides that, it didn't really have much meaning until the idea of connection and love was implanted in it from their interaction with it's creator.

[marble burrow]

How so? :o

[signal marlin]

thats a common and reasonable interpretation

mostly by yak

[solid abyss]

i think im slipping when did they say this

[marble burrow]

When do you think the Knight began to not be really hollow anymore?

[signal marlin]

i dont think it was ever pure/hollow

[marble burrow]

Oooo

Like the rest of its siblings? Or just the Knight?

[signal marlin]

i think none of them are or were pure

[neat kite]

No will, no self shade lore tablet

[marble burrow]

Hmmm

[neat kite]

Do you have evidence for your claim that void has will

[marble burrow]

Now while I don't think the Ancient Civilization was wrong,

I do think things changed once the Knight came around.

Especially because of the whole Void Given Focused thing

[neat kite]

Well, Vessels have will, but Void itself doesn’t

[marble burrow]

I mean moreso I think the Knight, being a vessel, gave Void a purpose.

Before, Void might've been just chaos.

No will, just nature.

But when the Knight took the position of the Shade Lord; the Void Given Focus form,

it unified all of its siblings with it

and they were all there when the Knight saved Hornet

maybe giving Void a will.

If that makes sense? 💀

[neat kite]

It does, but effects of the Void Heart aren’t universal, it only seems to affect Hallownest’s Void, because Void in Silksong is still volatile will-les and chaotic

[marble burrow]

Mmm yeah that is true

The Knight did have to smack away the tendrils after all

[signal marlin]

[light bane]

I have a silly theory
That Shade Lord was trapped inside the Everbloom all this time
And was only released when the Everbloom was destroyed in the Pharloom's void
Because all of "instances" of delicate flowers are in fact the same Flower

[neat kite]

I love this theory even if it seems silly

[light bane]

So the Knight really can't help Hornet before that

[humble current]

This makes absolutely no sense but it's funny so I like it

[light bane]

It was always funny for me that the Grey Mourner called the delicate flower "unique and one of a kind"
And then immediately pulls off another one when the previous one was destroyed
But what if she was right all this time
You know, like this crazy quantum theory that there is only one electron in the universe

[left oak]

The Hive is actually really lore important, we should look around the place more

[neat kite]

i have to agree, ||Silksong|| elaborates on other tribes better than Hollow knight

[glad hatch]

Well it’s not the same flower but silly so good

[glad hatch]

Aren’t you dead

[left oak]

I don't know who you're talking about

[glad hatch]

Oh your not Vespa ok

[left oak]

Who is this Vespa you speak of

[fathom heart]

vespa as in the vehicle?

[vocal pike]

Hi guys, im just curious about the last stag. Recently I watch a video on youtube and hear it talk about Pale King build tram station to replace stags (if they are gonna extinct). I thought stagsway and tram station operate at the same time?

[near sequoia]

You're correct

[languid snow]

if the nailsmith wants you to kill him after forging the pure nail, why doesn't he at least give you your money back - it's not like he would've had much use for it anyway

[near sequoia]

Seems more like a gameplay thing than anything

[rocky vector]

hey guys you wanna hear a stupid ahh theory

[rocky vector]

besides being for gameplay it's quite possible he just forgor i mean like that happens irl so

[fading crane]

Did the White Lady have anything to do with the escape of the vassels?

[rugged comet]

White Lady - General - First encounter

Oh! One arrives. Far it walks to find me. Did it seek my aid? Or did the path carry it by chance to so pertinant a place?
It is true. True, that you were awaited. No. Perhaps that is inaccurate. True one like you was awaited.
I have a gift, held long for one of your kind. Half of a whole. When united, great power is granted, and on the path ahead, great power it will need.

@nostor_10. used /npcs quest name: White Lady category: General dialogue: First encounter

[indigo venture]

As soon as the Nailsmith realizes what he has created, he instantly wants to get struck by it

Id guess he forgot/didnt care in the heat of the moment

[dry glade]

Hey guys (lore wise + biology wise) how tf did the pale king and white lady make THAT much vessels like there are (approximately) 4 fucking millions of them in the abyss.
Also I feel bad for their beds. (Bad english cuz im dont speak hamburger or biscuit)

[near sequoia]

I don't know where you got the 4 million number from but they're magic fantasy creatures I don't really think there's a biological explanation for it

Bugs are also pretty prolific irl

[fading crane]

"Soul of Wyrm. Soul of Root. Heart of Void"
The Vessel are soul creation of higher beings
They are not biological

[timber snow]

they are biological

they were born from eggs, it’s not like they are lab experiments or some kind of spell creation like little weavers for example

[neat kite]

i don't think that is literal, at least considering they bear physiology of their parents

[fading crane]

So they create eggs

[fading crane]

The moths also

[neat kite]

Moths were created in image of radiance, but Vessels are pretty physical at least, they inherit Focus and so on

[fading crane]

😑

[timber snow]

they created eggs through non biological means? that seems very convoluted rather than them just being their children

[neat kite]

well, regardless of how they were created, Abyss impacted their physiology most

[timber snow]

they’re called spawn and progeny, words used to refer to actual biological children

[neat kite]

||Grand Mother Silk|| also calls her children daughters

[timber snow]

moths literally look like Rad not to mention
vessels are a clear mix of WL and PK

and theres a whole theme in the game about how she is wrong

[neat kite]

point still stands

[timber snow]

not really
weavers and vessels aren’t even remotely the same

why are we lying to supposedly mindless drones telling them they are our spawn and progeny

why are we writing it on tablets no one but you will see

[neat kite]

i mean it is pretty unlikely that Vessels are creation rather than biological product of higher being, but one can bring up pretty good point of asking how are literally root and worm compatible

[timber snow]

how is a spider and a wyrm compatible

it’s a fantasy story

[neat kite]

why do you think that? though

[neat kite]

they are both critters, though literal plant is more confusing

[timber snow]

both are equally absurd if you ask me

[neat kite]

it's game logic i guess

Radiance, Unn, ||GMS||, NMH all making their children through their powers and WL and PK being exception is weird, when you also consider their species, how can root lay an egg?

[neat kite]

it somewhat validates scrutiny right @fading crane ?

[fading crane]

Because:

1. Higher Beings can create life

2. Hornet is a biological daughter and is described as Higher Being. Examples:
   ||> Bug... Higher
   —Zi||

||> Ahh. Know you distort the order of things, Old One. It is a rare desire of your caste to serve us mortal bugs.
—Mask Maker||

||> I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top.
—Hornet to Caretaker||

||> You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.
—Hornet to Green Prince||

If the vessels were also biological descent, then they would also be HB, which they are not. except the knight with the Voidheart, of course

[neat kite]

that might sense, but in hindsight i would say them not being Pale Being may be in part because of the void but "Not bug nor beast nor god" title of Knight kind of helps your point, they are also said to be born of god and void if i am not mistaken... so idk what to make of that

[fading crane]

Exactly

[neat kite]

also i remember you, i shared Frozen Memory theory with you, correct?

[fading crane]

Yes

[neat kite]

i have 2 other related theories/deep dives and they are supposed to make sense together, that's how they have most credibility at least

[fading crane]

Furthermore, I feel that PK's statement would be different if the vessels were HB

Some like "gods of pale and void", for example

But no

They are born of God and Void

[neat kite]

one is Lost Memory theory and other is Rhythmic Memory theory, would you like to also weight in and share your opinions on them

[neat kite]

i am inclined to agree, void and pale-ness counteract each other

[fading crane]

Rhythmic Memory

[neat kite]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LgKKOYtlpveJ3kYS6pIMpHb0jk_FDnjKY6HCd9Rx0PA/edit?usp=sharing

[fading crane]

Thank you

[loud crater]

WL probably has some special trait letting her have children with anything. Maybe PK also has it i dunno.

[neat kite]

yeah, that is most likely true

[hot lily]

Hornet isn't a HB herself

[fading crane]

Ah?

[hot lily]

she is described as a pale being; pale beings are not necessarily also higher beings

[fading crane]

Aaah, ok
Thank you

[neat kite]

although she is higher caste as well technically, so it is easy to confuse pale being and higher caste to higher being

[fading crane]

That's a good point.
So you consider the Druid to be something like "the heart of moss"?

[lusty grove]

guys could the pale king have killed the radience or was he not powerful enought

[near sequoia]

Rad seems to only be able to be killed by Void Heart

[lusty grove]

oh yeah

[near sequoia]

And even then we can only do that because she's imprisoned in THK's mind and can't leave elsewhere

[lusty grove]

yeah

[meager cairn]

Maybe if he was still in his wyrm form, but he probably would have killed her as the pale king if he were powerful enough

[fading crane]

The fact that he resorted to using vassels makes it clear that he had no other option.

[hot lily]

they can't kill each other

[neat kite]

she is accelerationist, imo

[fading crane]

She is what?

[neat kite]

she is accelerating process of heart of mosslands forming

[fading crane]

Oh, that

[jovial vortex]

why did pale king even lock vessels in abyss instead of taking care of them or turning them into servants?

[pure inlet]

They were void possessed versions of the corpses of his children

Not only would they have been dangerous to keep around but PK couldn’t stand to see a ton of them running about

The project tortured him

[glad hatch]

Yeah I could interpret them being dangerous as a second reason hornet kills them when she sees them

I really wish we got some more lore of Lurian the watcher

[river timber]

is the search for a "hollow vessel" a reference to zoolander?

[loud crater]

What?

[loud crater]

Far too many, most died during the climb, potentially dangerous, would you want a bunch fo your reanimated children running about your house?

[river timber]

at the beginning of zoolander they are looking for somone they describe as an empty vessel

"The point is, we need an empty vessel..."

[loud crater]

It probably isnt.

[river timber]

it would be pretty funny if it were though

[loud crater]

The Pale King wanted a Pure Vessel. All Vessels were "empty".

[river timber]

ah

thank you

[karmic isle]

Radiance can’t infect the pale king. Pale king can’t touch the radiance

Unless perhaps he were to obtain the dreamnail

But of course that didn’t happen.

[hot lily]

that would do nothing

the dream nail can't kill dream entities, it can only read their minds

[karmic isle]

They could beat each other up in a dream I guess

[hot lily]

which again, would do nothing, because Radiance is a living idea and PK himself can manipulate Essence

[split compass]

PK can go into dreams already
if he could have just taken out Radiance by fighting her directly, he probably would have done so when she was bound up in THK

i think that's a pretty good indication that she was stronger than him, personally

[daring ridge]

so wait, how do we know that the nightmare heart is a higher being?

or uun from that matter, is there some sort if criteria they need to meet

[split compass]

Unn shows up in the Pantheon of Hallownest along with WL and PK, two for-sure higher beings

and I guess with the Heart we're assuming, no one ever specifically says 'the Heart of Nightmare is a higher being'

but y'know

heart of an entire domain of the dream realm

their avatar, Nightmare King Grimm, gets a full screen title card

at some point I think it's reasonable to assume

[meager cairn]

Wait, is the nightmare heart seriously never specified to be a higher being?

[pure inlet]

No

But neither is Unn

Creating an entire ecosystem from your own dream and perpetuating yourself eternally without a hitch as a dream based being with a measure of control though

They both can be said to “exist above all others” without much of a hitch

[loud crater]

There’s also Grimm and NKG having unique Dream Nail Dialogue in GodHome, something only Hornet really has due to being half Wyrm.

[hot lily]

i don't think unique DN dialogue is evidence of being an HB

[loud crater]

It indicates that you’re powerful enough to realize what’s going on in GodHome. Hornet is only seemingly half aware of what’s going on while Grimm/NKG seem to be fully aware.

[split compass]

could be - Grimm being an entity of the dream realm is probably also a factor, but many HBs have some kind of dream-related mojo

Sheo also seems to be aware of what's going on in Godhome though, given his own dnd - possibly also Sly

that may be a factor more of them having counterparts in the waking world (which Hornet has also)

[loud crater]

If so then Ogrim would also have it.

[split compass]

I don't think it's necessary that every boss with a waking world counterpart chime in for that to be the case
otherwise, Sheo and Sly confirmed as part HB

[meager cairn]

Oro's flower quest only gets unlocked after you fight him and Mato in P1

[karmic isle]

Given that Grimm is fully aware of the pantheon’s nature and possibly even knows Godseeker already (The Troupe might’ve visited the land of storms after the Gods of Thunder and Rain died), it’s safe to say he’s a higher being

[split compass]

I think it's extremely reasonable to conclude that the Heart is a higher being

[hot lily]

i mean there's no difference between the Heart and Grimm - they're all fundamentally part of the same being

they are the same consciousness in different forms

[karmic isle]

Hornet is a demigod and she is unsure about what the pantheon is

But she comments on it in her dreamnail dialogue so I guess she half-understands

Half higher being = half aware
Full higher being = fully aware

[karmic isle]

Exactly.

[split compass]

I'm pretty sure only WL and PK are referred to as HBs in game, via the Kingsoul said to be a union between higher beings
even Radiance is only referred to as an HB via outside material, with TC confirming her, PK, and WL
and the term higher being is used weirdly in-game in various ways in any case

[karmic isle]

That’s why I used Grimm as evidence, he’s the vessel for the Nightmare Heart’s eternal cycle of burning the father and feeding the child

[pure inlet]

It does?

He doesn’t have a flower quest you just kind of drop it with him

[meager cairn]

But if you leave and return, the flower is in a vase

And I don't think you can leave it with him before the p1 fight

[split compass]

the option to leave him a flower was added along with the Godhome stuff, but the fight isn't required

[meager cairn]

Ah

[south glade]

I'm curious how does the hollow knight scream if vessels can't talk is it the infection or something?

[hot lily]

it's not THK making the scream, it's Radiance

[split compass]

screechin' away

[severe perch]

gng to revive this chat what lore is your favourite, mine is the radiance's lore shes so amazing

[stray geyser]

False Knight having the key to City of tears

[brisk venture]

Biethplace

[obtuse terrace]

why does he have it

[stray geyser]

He used to be a guard of the city

[loud crater]

No, the armor it has belonged to the Great Knight Hegemol who had the city crest.

[modest yoke]

Guys how did the pure vessel lose his arm

In the base fight he only had one arm

But in pure vessel he has 2 arms

[humble current]

We don't know, but there are plenty of fan theories

[empty oyster]

Hi

[modest yoke]

Hm name some

Like yk

[light bane]

Most likely it's just because of infection. Infection can severely deform bodies, and poor fella has a huge infection blob in place of their arm/chest.

[loud crater]

It slumped off due to Radiance trying to kill it to escape its mind.

[modest yoke]

Ahh ok

[modest yoke]

Mm yes sounds reasonable

[modest yoke]

Inv me to the gim troupe in DMs brev

Trust

[karmic isle]

Wait a minute… is the ancient corpse in the abyss still alive?
How would it change its thoughts after obtaining void heart if it’s dead?

[meager cairn]

The Warrior Dreams change their thoughts/dialog after you beat them even though they're dead

[loud crater]

They're lingering memories of the dead people

The ghost itself isnt dead.

As odd as that sounds.

[meager cairn]

Huh

[indigo venture]

Its essence basically

There arent actual ghosts in HK

Wtv happens after death is a mystery

[loud crater]

I assume after being forgotten its like nothingness after death.

[indigo venture]

And if death but not forgotten?

[loud crater]

Lingering in their minds ig.

[indigo venture]

Hm

[split compass]

maybe

(that thing is fucking cool)

[fading crane]

Shade Beast >>> old AC corpses

[karmic isle]

That’s their spirit. It can think.

[pure inlet]

Warrior Dreams changing their tune is a consequence of the large concentration of essence imitating how they might have switched up in life

[karmic isle]

This is a corpse.

[pure inlet]

Shade Beast is probably a more unique case

[karmic isle]

No ghost appears.

[pure inlet]

Considering the ||AC tablets and Arcane Egg in Silksong|| it might not be a corpse but inert in a pseudo-alive state

The void seal on it might dull its thoughts and put it in a coma or something

[karmic isle]

Sorta like how the ||weavers are sealed in their spires||

[pure inlet]

In a sense

But they’re probably more dead

Rune harp says they’ll die

[karmic isle]

Except debatably ||first sinner||

[pure inlet]

No she’s def dead

||Absolution denied ||

She just has a strong force of will

It’s sort of like HK but we don’t have the DN to see the essence around the whole thing

[karmic isle]

comes back like peepaw willy

[split compass]

they did say their voices will cry out again...

[fading crane]

?

[fading crane]

😯

[pure inlet]

It’s the only case of an inert object/corpse’s DND changing besides PK a HB with the most profound grief of all time

His lingering sadness was so strong it manifested as a thought process

So

Who knows

It could be the same for the AC member their fervor is that powerful

But I feel like with the Lemm quote and ||lack of reference in SS to it ||they weren’t especially holding out for a Lord of Shades

Ergo the guy is probably not dead