hk-lore

[cobalt elbow]

Language please? 😞

[loud crater]

Me?

[wraith trellis]

Anyone wanna talk about dream warriors

[cobalt elbow]

Hmm sorry.

[wraith trellis]

Is that a no?

[robust galleon]

void is cold
infection is hot

tm

[loud crater]

Void is room temp.

Lifeblood is cold.

[robust galleon]

its all cold

everything is cold

https://tenor.com/view/melvin-captain-underpants-trademark-melvin-sneedly-gif-4042128905284417097

i picked such a bad gif

[pure inlet]

What about them

[robust galleon]

half of the events before the game are about an angey moth

[wraith trellis]

What's the lore behind each of them

[pure inlet]

Uhh

Do you have a specific one

Some have very little some have a lot

[wraith trellis]

Like let's focus on my favorite one

Which is of course

Gorb

[pure inlet]

Gorb is an interesting one

[wraith trellis]

What's he doing in howling cliffs

[pure inlet]

So

He was likely intelligent in life

Because that’s on his grave

But that might not have translated to wisdom or he was just adventuresome

[wraith trellis]

Any clues that lead to his demise?

Or why does he spawn swords

[pure inlet]

Because it’s almost implied that he fell off the cliffs, lost his mind and died trying to climb back up

[wraith trellis]

Oh

[pure inlet]

Because he was too far from the beacon

[wraith trellis]

That's sad

[pure inlet]

“Ascend ascend”

[wraith trellis]

Beacon?

[robust galleon]

half of the events before the game are about an angey moth making a disease

how serious

[pure inlet]

Most bugs in Hallownest are smart because the pale kings corpse emits a beacon that expands their minds

But the beacon ends at the cliffs

[wraith trellis]

Oh it does?

[pure inlet]

So if your mind comes from the beacon and you leave you lose it

[wraith trellis]

I never knew that

[pure inlet]

Some bugs like the spiders mantises etc can survive without it because they don’t need the beacon

[wraith trellis]

Are the stags not affected by that because don't they live in howling cliffs?

[pure inlet]

Warrior dreams spawn ethereal versions of the weapons they had in life

Like Markoth probably held swords in his hand

Gorb’s original concept art

One second

[robust galleon]

makes sense why in that one fanfic at the cliffs radi didnt jump, because the beacon made her s**cidal lol

thats so fucking funny to think about even if thats wrong

[wraith trellis]

Which means gorb somehow used a sword?

[pure inlet]

Was this slug with a nail in its mouth

So he might have held the nail in his mouth in life

But it just becomes a dream attack

[wraith trellis]

Oh

It was in his mouth

So gorb died because he was too far from the beacon? And he spawns swords because he was a sword wielding slug?

That's pretty interesting

[robust galleon]

how the fuck are you meant to die from not having a good mind

[wraith trellis]

And that's a sad end for gorb

[wraith trellis]

Wdym?

[robust galleon]

did he just, forget to keep it in some certain position and stab his lips which dont exist and commit accidental suicide without a good mind or whatever

[robust galleon]

ITS BASIC LOGIC

[wraith trellis]

The pale king gives sentience

Not just a good mind

[robust galleon]

technially the bugs were still..alive before that

[wraith trellis]

Without consciousness a mindless creature would just wither away

[robust galleon]

still gives no reason for the moth tribe to convert

[wraith trellis]

Yeah and most of them weren't doing much? Actually theres not much lore about the bugs before?

[robust galleon]

worship is kinda much
they all did worship, of whatever god

[wraith trellis]

They just jumped on the bandwagon

[robust galleon]

in a nutshell

[robust galleon]

radiance can you descend and kill your half childern, thank you

how dare you defy the god that had to create her worshippers because she got none

[wraith trellis]

By the way

I think the reason they chose the pale king is because they wanted to have individuality and a mind of their own

When you worship the radiance you're just kind of in a hive mind

They wanted free will and their own personality

Anyways

Speaking of the moth tribe

Anybody wanna talk about markoth?

[hot lily]

They already had that prior

[wraith trellis]

Did they?

[hot lily]

Seer says that the Moths betrayed Radiance by following PK instead

She does not mention the Infection during that period because it didn't exist

[wraith trellis]

Oh yeah I guess it wouldn't make much sense to "betray" If you don't have free will

In which case

Why would they betray the radiance

[hot lily]

we don't know why they did it, just that they did it

[wraith trellis]

Anyways back to markoth

Wait are there only 3 members of the moth tribe that are shown?

[pure inlet]

Yes

There’s the one in shrine of believers but that probably isn’t canon

[plush pine]

true

who are you guys talking about rn

[plush pine]

it was less of betryaing and more of forgetting about her as a god so she got angry

She infected them so that they would be hostile to everything except for her

they only remembered her and her commands

does that explain it?

[green pilot]

Isn't that the same moth?

[pure inlet]

Probably not because it appears after seer ascends

[sand stump]

Why not?

[pure inlet]

It just doesn’t make sense for real people to send messages into the HK world

[calm gull]

Is zemer dead i didnt play the game

[molten wing]

The Radiance might have killed the Pale King

Hear me out: The Pale King hid away in the dream realm, which The Radiance is the goddess of, so Radiance got The Pale King

[pure inlet]

She probably didn’t do that

She’s powerful for sure but she’s not the goddess of dreams

Just a goddess that lives in dreams

[molten wing]

She infected the bugs of Hallownest through their dreams

[valid rapids]

Because... she exists only in the expanse of dream

That was her only way to actually affect them

[molten wing]

Oh ok

[valid rapids]

If PK died in a conflict do u rlly think his bum ass would be eeping on a throne, without any visible wounds, and his dream nail dialogue not talking about said conflict

Plus when TK smacks him his shell immediately cracks and shows damage

[molten wing]

True, ambushed though

I see a lot of holes now lol

[valid rapids]

hey chat what do we think of the dream realm being filled with weird stone representations of essence

[split compass]

she's alive when you meet her in-game

[boreal hearth]

Yoooo

What's up

[molten wing]

Hi

[real wagon]

why do u fight sly

[split compass]

godseekers make you

[heavy ice]

he got mad u stole his geo

trust me

[real wagon]

we stole his geo?

[heavy ice]

yes

[young rain]

He’s trolling

[heavy ice]

so trust me in the godseekers relam we stole sly's geo

[naive moon]

Idk

[loud crater]

(Team Cherry wanted a reason to make a really fast semi difficult boss) GodSeeker nonsense.

[copper shell]

Imma sound like a dumbass but why do the warrior ghosts exist?

Ik as a way to get essence but what's the story behind them?

[loud crater]

Essence stuff I dunno.

Memories n shit.

I am not qualified to speak on this matter.

[split compass]

it's the nature of Essence to sometimes linger, left behind in the world by bugs
sometimes a lot of Essence gets left behind, and it takes the form of those who have died

[copper shell]

Oooohhhh

I liked to think they were fighters that died without a final fight

[polar breach]

Wait could the vessels contain the power of the nightmare heart because they are vessels so theoretically could the knight've gone in with the power of Grimm when fighting the radiance if the troupe came early enough

[copper shell]

💀 💀 💀

Makes some sense

[sand stump]

No

Wait

[sand stump]

what do you mean?

The Vessel of the Nightmare heart was specifically made by the nightmare heart no?

[polar breach]

Like how the hollow knight and later the knight absorbed the infection could they do the same for the power of the nightmare heart

[sand stump]

oooh

Maybe

Nothing tells us they can't

imo its a question that will most likely never be answered

[polar breach]

Yeah probably

[pure inlet]

Uh

Maybe?

NMH doesn’t really follow the same rules as Rad ik thr sense

But who knows

[lament cobalt]

Vicodin go

[loud crater]

Since the Nightmare Heart is an essence entity it might be that instead of getting its power a Vessel would just seal it like the Radiance.

[slim skiff]

What is the canon HK ending?

[loud crater]

They’re all equally canon.

[slim skiff]

So they can all lead to 's appearance in Silksong?

[loud crater]

No.

Two cannot.

[hot lily]

silksong is not the sole determiner of what is or isn't canon

[copper shell]

When doing steel soul, who os the metal bug where the shade revive bug is?

[split compass]

that's Steel Soul Jinn! an interesting and mysterious bug

[copper shell]

Cool

[split compass]

we don't really know much about them

[copper shell]

Hmm

I remember she gave a lore dump

[split compass]

she reacts to a couple of very important lore items, like the King's Brand

it's pretty neat

[copper shell]

Hmm

[viral galleon]

You guys think a dlc for Silksong will be about the steel people

Or maybe he even though that so low chance lol

[atomic epoch]

most likely if we're getting sharpe

he'll either be hunting hornet down because the masters of the steel city consider her a threat or they need her for something

[viral galleon]

Wait if the knight appears they would immediately hunt him down

But um

Not sure that’s gonna work out

[atomic epoch]

the knights one with the void though

I don't think he's gonna come out of that puddle for some steel assassins

[viral galleon]

Yea

Do you think they store void

[signal marlin]

#sk-lore

[viral galleon]

Yea

[storm rose]

brr baloni luuli loni

[thorn valve]

But I heard it will be more about life blood

[viral galleon]

ALR

[wooden sinew]

Guys

Is dirthmouth part of hallownest or is it outside of hallownest?

Like

Is hallownest only past the well

Or is it everything we see

[covert brook]

Why did the pale king choose specifically herrah, lurien and monomon

Couldn’t he have picked someone else

Like why did he pick them

What made them better than anyone else

[sand stump]

Could've been that they had powerful wills and that they would be willing to do it very strongly

[sand stump]

A part of Hallownest

the whole Area, is a region called Hallownest
But the Kingdom is also called Hallownest

And Dirtmouth is a part of the Kingdom of Hallownest

[covert brook]

But we know that herrah demanded to have a child with the pale king so she technically wasn’t extremely willing to do it

[sand stump]

Would she not be willing to save her people?
She wanted a Child because she always wanted one and most likely because she didn't want to just do anything for PK without gaining something from it

[sly zenith]

Yeah no she refused unless she could have a child it was her condition for being a dreamer

[covert brook]

But why would she want a child if she wouldn’t even be able to raise it

[loud crater]

Why would animals want children if several don’t raise them?

Whole ‘carrying on the genetic legacy’ thing.

[covert brook]

Ohh okay yea understood now

Thx

[signal marlin]

demanding something doesnt inherently suggest a lack of "extreme willingness"

[wraith trellis]

?

[marble birch]

Herrah was willing to Dream if she had a child to carry on her legacy and if possible be the last surviving Weaver. She saw an opportunity to have the Pale King sire said child, so Herrah didn’t pass up the chance for her daughter to be a Demigod.

[hallow kiln]

Z

[finite smelt]

how do you guys think its actually bright enough to see in hallownest and pharloom cause theres definitely not enough lights for it to be that bright and atleast for hallownest i never got the impression that it was full of caverns with holes from the surface

[loud crater]

The creatures have adapted to the relatively low light conditions.

[finite smelt]

makes sense

[dusk helm]

What I never understood was why the White Castle had 5. Hundred. Saws.

Palace mb

[sand stump]

We don't really know

It could just be cuz Pale King loved saws

Maybe it was a final test for the Kings Idol

Maybe it was as punishment for PK

[dusk helm]

That’s why hornet says Shaw

She is trying to say saw

[sand stump]

https://klipy.com/gifs/omniman-omni-man-1

[dusk helm]

Lmao

Additionally how long has the kingdom of hallownest been along so that the creatures could be accustomed to the environments?

And how was it created?

[sand stump]

The Kingdom was founded by Pale King, and built by him and his followers

The Kingdom was most likely extremely old

[dusk helm]

But the environments and adaptations?

Additionally, how do environments like the queens gardens and crystal peaks occur within miles of each other?

Well it’s really like 10 feet

To us

[sand stump]

Its called
✨ Divine Intervention ✨

Literally, the Gods just made the Greenery

Unn made Queens Gardens and Greenpath

[dusk helm]

Oh cmon

[sand stump]

The Pale King caused Kingdoms edge to be covered in Ash

The Abyss is just there

[dusk helm]

Lmao

I still won’t buy di

[sand stump]

Why not?

[dusk helm]

Cuz it’s dumb

I am on the side of science

[sand stump]

This is a game about a Bug, that fights the fucking Sun

[dusk helm]

Errrrr

Nurrr

But like if there’s logical explanations for green path and qg then…?

[loud crater]

The logical explanation was a slug god had a dream.

[dusk helm]

Faaah

But still an explanation

[loud crater]

How did the Grand Canyon or Appalachian mountains form? Via natural processes. Same with the crystal peak most likely. Natural processes that eventually formed the crystals and caverns of the peaks.

[mental pewter]

Guys I just finished the hollow night but only at 60% but can you tell me the lore plssss I didn’t understand anything

[manic karma]

firstly finish the game true ending, then you will get an overall idea. if u dont care about that theres a preeety good video made by mossbag on the lore

[loud crater]

Go 112% the game if you’re truly low hungry. Also because it’s a hella good game you should fully complete.

[mental pewter]

Okkkkkk thx

[hot lily]

there is no true ending

[dusk helm]

There is

I mean because of silksong no

But the true ending sorta is the ||one where you kill the radiance in the dream realm||

[manic karma]

cmon its just named this way

[hot lily]

not officially

[hot lily]

Silksong isn't the sole definer of what is or isn't canon

[manic karma]

just stfu

no one cares

[hot lily]

if you are unwilling to abide by channel rules, then get out

[loud crater]

Like everyone who consistently talks here cares. A lot in fact.

[near sequoia]

Dream No More is the true ending that's not against the rules

That's not a statement of canonicity that's just what it is in both gameplay and story, being the most satisfying and cohesive ending out of the 3

You also don't need to stick to official names we use fanmade names all the time

[loud crater]

Fuck sealed siblings I guess.

[near sequoia]

True...

[real wagon]

why is the knight so small compared to thk

[loud crater]

Most people may not know that and will assume it is the actual canon ending if it’s called that here. Plus it takes less time to just say DND than True Ending

[loud crater]

THK underwent some weird magical growing process during its training.

[near sequoia]

Its really not that deep

And its not against the rules read pins

[real wagon]

is the guy next to the pale king thk?

[near sequoia]

Yes

[real wagon]

sry i have a lotta questions

was the path of pain made to test the vessels

[loud crater]

No.

[real wagon]

oh

[timber snow]

it was made to seal that memory in particular

[real wagon]

thats what i heard

oh

[timber snow]

it didn’t exist at the time of vessel creation

[loud crater]

Whoever told you is wrong and a misinformation spreader. Remove their skin privileges

[real wagon]

it was a theory i heard online

and i js wanted to see if thats true

[timber snow]

also ik it’s hella late
but DnM is absolutely the resolution to the story of hallownest, and is effectively the “true” ending even if all of them are canon

EtV too kinda but it adds the little hornet and Thk stinger at the end (which is never elaborated on)

[mighty dove]

This is true

[crystal hare]

do they not look similar?

[signal marlin]

no

they really arent similar whatsoever however even if they were closer in appearance - it wouldnt be meaingful and instead just a superficial analysis

[twilit obsidian]

cloth is trans because she chirps

throw flowers at me and clap people

[loud crater]

Yes. They don’t. If anything it looks closer to ||First Sinner’s fuck ass head||.

[loud crater]

[green pilot]

Guys this is the #hk-lore channel

Wrong place

[pale pilot]

Why does the crossroads become infected after we beat broken vessel w/o doing any dreamer

[loud crater]

Shows the passage of time.

[atomic epoch]

if people didn't realize the state of hallownest before, they sure will now.

[loud crater]

?

[candid basin]

oh yeah valid question

what the fuck is this thing again?

silksong told us NOTHINg

[crystal hare]

i have no idea

[loud crater]

It’s… uh… some… thing?

[crystal hare]

alright im entering act 3

now

[loud crater]

Man I dunno.

[crystal hare]

dude entering act 3 is just normal no

lmao

oh wait

[crystal hare]

OH SHIT

YEA

right

my fault

😔

[candid basin]

mayan fertility idol ahh

[candid basin]

this is hk lore technically

[crystal hare]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1285389908546162710/1477202928732344330/aldu93.gif

[candid basin]

its just that both games have connecting lore

[loud crater]

Wot

[candid basin]

ts might be elite ball knowledge

Im referencing like a comment on a pyrocynical video

[loud crater]

What the hell is even that?

[candid basin]

its unimportant for know

now

[worn ember]

im sorry but i need to know why tiso is dead in kingdoms edge? i just saw him doing fine on a bench in colo of fools

did he fail the challenge and get dumped down here?

[loud crater]

Yeah.

[worn ember]

: (

[pale pilot]

huh

[timber snow]

after defeating broken vessel, youre kinds guaranteed to be a good portion into the game (disregarding skips and unintentional shit)

[hot lily]

Godhome implies that ||he died to a Brooding Mawlek falling on top of him and crushing him to death||

[real wagon]

why did the pale king make the white palace have so much saws and parkour and intentionally hard to traverse

[indigo venture]

Defense maybe

[loud crater]

It was likely only that way after he went into the dream realm. Before hand it was almost certainly a normal boring palace with normal boring hallways.

[indigo venture]

Why boring

[pure inlet]

Because people had to like walk around and stuff

The saws and spikes were likely a product of his torn psyche

They could have naturally appeared in the process of moving the palace since he was likely anguished while he did it

[split compass]

boring compared to, you know, super meat boy palace

[primal bridge]

the saddest thing I've ever learned in my life is that there's no lore reason behind why pale king's body vanishes upon returning to the palace and it's just because his body is classified in the code the same way an enemy body is

[heady meadow]

I mean look at what he did

[primal bridge]

I had EVERYTHING staked on him disappearing this is terrible I've lost a thousand dollars of theory moneys

[primal bridge]

Does that have anything to do with him vanishing? I mean it's like a mausoleum in there already unless he disappeared into dream energy or something

well that is to say if he had a lore reason for disappearing rather than forcing me out of the theory zone into mere headcanon

[vernal bluff]

so i didn´t got it yet

why isn´t the|| hk|| or the ||radiance|| in godhome?

well you can´t finally beat them

but what about eg zote

[green pilot]

You will see

[vernal bluff]

⸘

[green pilot]

Eg zote?

[vernal bluff]

e.g.

i mean you can´t even kill zote "completely"

i mean grey prince zote

[green pilot]

Wdym completely?

[vernal bluff]

you can fight him over and over again, and not in godhome (but he´s getting way stonger)

[green pilot]

You can fight him in godhome

He's in the hall of gods

[vernal bluff]

i just googled it

youre right

[vernal bluff]

google, my best friend

[green pilot]

Wait have you beaten all of godhome or are you new to the area?

[vernal bluff]

but the ||hk || and ||radnience || aren´t in godhome bc you cant beat them up (?)

[green pilot]

?

[vernal bluff]

oh well i´m still searching for gods in hallownest, but i´m still in p2 struggeling with sheo

but i haven´t beat radiance yet

[green pilot]

You can beat them upp and defeat them but THK and radiance aren't in godhome

You will see why if you continue going through the pantheons

[vernal bluff]

wait

ig it´s bc you never finish the story

yk

starting before the fight

*respawning

[vernal bluff]

yas

thx i think i c clearer now ^^

[brisk venture]

They are

Due to the attunement of the godseekers, all "gods" have become stronger, which is why rather than HK and Radience being there, you gey PV and AbsRad

[loud crater]

AbsRad is just the actual Radiance buffed by the GodSeekers’ focus attunement nonsense. PV is a memory of THK in its prime.

[wraith trellis]

Basically attunement returns them to their prime

Absolute radiance is the radiance before it gets weakened by the hollow knight

And the pure vessel is the hollow knight before it gets weakened by the radiance

[indigo venture]

Absolute Radiance is called perfected

[wraith trellis]

?

[indigo venture]

I dunno if Id call AbsRad Radiances prime

[wraith trellis]

It is the radiance before it's contained in the hollow knight no?

[indigo venture]

Probably not

I mean It is the Actual radiance, but stronger

[pure inlet]

Absrad isn’t prime rad

Yeah exactly

It’s just powered up by the Godseekers

The base rad we fight probably isn’t any weaker in strength than she has been

[indigo venture]

Id say she is weaker but only on how she can affect the "Real world"

[neat kite]

so true AppleEgg

[neat kite]

you mean Sealed unsuccessfully

[wraith trellis]

She isn't affected by being contained in the hollow knight?

[indigo venture]

What does this mean

[indigo venture]

I mean yeah, her influence in the real world

[neat kite]

Radiance was sealed so she couldn't affect "real world", seal didn't work

[indigo venture]

But I meant that Radiances ability to interact with the world outside of Dream Realm was in decay ever since The Moth Tribe tried forgetting them

[indigo venture]

Being forgotten yeah

[neat kite]

no, because hollow knight wasn't hollow, her reach may be affected i guess

[neat kite]

and being contained inside hollow knight

[wraith trellis]

Still

[indigo venture]

Being forgotten came first

[wraith trellis]

The hollow knight is a void being

[indigo venture]

that was Radiances first attempt at being sealed

[severe stratus]

guys i feel like hornet is related to knight

[wraith trellis]

Uh

[neat kite]

i mean, sure, but only way it seems to affect Radiance is minimize reach of infection

[severe stratus]

i have a theory

[pure inlet]

Probably to a degree as Nika said

[neat kite]

i know, i meant Hollow Knight in this case

[pure inlet]

A free Rad might be able to send infected bugs beyond the wastes like GMS does, or infect normally resistant bugs like Midwife Ogrim mantis lords

[neat kite]

yeah, we see Dream World and Radiance even evades Void Tendrils, her light shines against the Dark

[wraith trellis]

She evades void tendrils?

[neat kite]

i mean inside hollow knight, we see in radiance fight that she does that

[wraith trellis]

Also isn't she fully stuck inside the hollow knight? Like she physically cannot go

[indigo venture]

She physically doesnt exist

[wraith trellis]

I'm pretty sure she was and still is a physical being

[neat kite]

wdym, infection leaks out and she can go anywhere she wants in dream realm

[neat kite]

she is made of light, light is made from essence

[wraith trellis]

Then why is she contained inside the hollow knight?

[neat kite]

she is in mind of hollow knight

[wraith trellis]

She's physically confined there no? And she can only interact with the outside world through dreams because of the fact that she's still inside the hollow knight?

[neat kite]

she was never confirmed to be physical, she is made of essence, only exists in dream world, pure vessel focused radiance in it's mind, because they can do that

[wraith trellis]

The only time the knight absorbs essence is through dream nail, the dreamers and the hollow knight himself all of which had a physical form that he could hit

[wanton zephyr]

Focus can do a lot of wacky things beyond human comprehension

Like sucking the radiance into oneself

[dusk helm]

???

Whah...

[stable raptor]

i believe this is the same case with the nightmare heart

[hot lily]

nonphysical Essence beings exist

[sand stump]

What's confusing ya?

[wraith trellis]

Like?

The radiance?

Was she not worshipped physically by the moth tribe?

[indigo venture]

They have a statue of her yeah

but its likely they know how she looks like due to Moths seemingly having the ability to go into the Dream Realm at will

We have never seen Radiance in the Physical realm asides from that tiny glimpse of her in SeSi and THK ending

[wraith trellis]

But is it not an assumption that the hollow knight uses focus like the knight? The only time he uses that is when he's pure vessel and it's for an attack?

[indigo venture]

Yeah but it can clearly use Focus

[wraith trellis]

What's sesi

[indigo venture]

PV seems to just have an spell used whilst Focusing

[wraith trellis]

Sealed siblings?

[indigo venture]

Sealed Siblings

[wraith trellis]

I guess what I'm trying to understand is

How did the hollow knight seal the radiance within himself if he couldn't see the radiance

[indigo venture]

It just did

We dunno much related to the actual process

Also THK is also an "It"

[wraith trellis]

How tho

[indigo venture]

[wraith trellis]

This is why I assume the radiance has a physical self that the pure vessel was able to "absorb"

[indigo venture]

The Physical "Form" of Radiance is The Infection

[wraith trellis]

What about the light we see

In like the ending part

[neat kite]

Radiance was being who only existed in dream, i mean she is light

[wraith trellis]

Radiance is light yes

[indigo venture]

Wym

Like the Light Hunter and others talk about coming from the infected eyes?

Thats the Infection I think

[neat kite]

they never took physical form in waking world, they only ever have existed in dream world

[quartz haven]

So who the hecc is the Knight actually, none of my friends can agree on an answer

[indigo venture]

The Knight is a Vessel

What exactly do you mean by "Who is The Knight"

[quartz haven]

Like are they just one of the thousands of vessels that were made? Why are they so special and powerful?

(Pretty new to the game, btw)

[indigo venture]

They arent

They arent that special, but I suppose there are weaker vessels than it

[pure inlet]

“True one like you was awaited” is what WL says

There’s nothing inherently special about TK as a quality

Its lived experiences and choices distinguish it from other vessels

[hot lily]

she assumed TK was pure from the beginning, like how she did for all others upon creation

[naive moon]

Hi i can give lore

Yall want some

[indigo venture]

Why does Emilitia like Pale King

[naive moon]

Idk. Tbh i dont know much about the lore

[indigo venture]

Who Ellina the Chronicler

[naive moon]

who tf is ellina

[indigo venture]

Smh

[naive moon]

[hot lily]

in-universe author of the WJ book

[indigo venture]

So crazy so many bugs decided to call their Journal "Wanderer's Journal"

[hot lily]

because it was a standardized form of personal recordkeeping

[bitter fable]

Anyone have a link to a YouTube video where I can see the whole hollow knight lore and silksong lore

[indigo venture]

No video is without flaws, your best bet is probably Mossbag though

Just make sure to check His video correcting mistakes about the HK lore after.
||And check the pinned comment in his SS Video||

[bitter fable]

Thanks man

[hybrid moth]

yo i wanna steal zote girlfreind. pls help me do that

[lusty plinth]

Are they or are they not the journals of wanderers

[indigo venture]

He doesn't have one

[indigo venture]

Maybe

I dunno', we never read them

[hybrid moth]

he does that guy u save

*woman

*bug

[indigo venture]

Bretta is in love with him, but Zote does not care for her

[hybrid moth]

oh mb

[indigo venture]

you can make Bretta fall out of love by Beating GPZ though

if that is what you meant

[hybrid moth]

yeah

and how do i do that

[indigo venture]

Beat GPZ

[hybrid moth]

whos gpz, (im kinda noob)

[indigo venture]

Grey Prince Zote, boss in Bretta's basement

Go to #hk-help

[sand stump]

whats the topic?

[indigo venture]

Don't have one right now

[hybrid moth]

okie

[indigo venture]

Got anything?

[sand stump]

Theres always the mythical question

[hybrid moth]

ALSO WHY TF DOES BRETTA KEEP ZOTE IN HER BASEMENT

[sand stump]

She a fan girl

[indigo venture]

It is a statue of Bretta's idolized version of Zote

[hybrid moth]

...

im out

[young flower]

Why are there white lady roots in kingdoms edge

[indigo venture]

They aren't

[indigo venture]

Zote isn't hidden, he just straight up isn't in Godhome

Godseekers don't see him as a "God", so he can only enter when TK aids him on it

Although EO isn't canon in my opinion

It isn't hidden as I said, TK breaks zote in

As for why GPZ is in, as Godseeker says, He is a "False God"

And apparently A False God is already better than Zote

Wtf are you yapping about

Define "God"

because a Vengefly is a god by Godseeker's Standards

Like, Higher Being?

How would that even work

It wouldn't even make sense

[young flower]

Then what the hell are they

[indigo venture]

Roots

[young flower]

Hmm

[heady meadow]

What the hell happened here

[ocean adder]

hmm

[heady meadow]

Apparently anything bigger then the knight,

[split compass]

nope - Sly's a god too

[old sentinel]

Gods in lore are essentially creatures that represent something (like the vengefly king is the god of territory I think)

And flukemarm is, and I quote, the "alluring god of motherhood"

Although I think Godseeker was on something when she wrote that one like tf you mean "alluring"‽

Obviously Higher Beings are closer to gods in the traditional aspect but yeah

[gloomy furnace]

godseeker was very allured ig

[old sentinel]

Questionable tastes but we won't judge the golden dream lady

[old sentinel]

He actually broke into Godhome and set up the Eternal Ordeal with the horde of zotelings

Ig she saw him, making her think about him, which then in turn put him in her mind which is Godhome

[split compass]

it is possible she tuned to Zote in some way

Godseeker mentions that she doesn't need the Godtuner anymore, but still encourages the Knight to take it and tune gods with it, bringing them to Godhome

but it could be that she would have eventually tuned to the 'gods' of Hallownest anyway, even without the Knight's aid

regardless of whether TK saves Zote or leaves him to die, Godseeker might pick him up and bring him to Godhome

then realize her horrible mistake in tuning to such a virulent little personality like him and lock him away

[lusty plinth]

You mean like physically bring him into the dream?

[split compass]

no no, 'pick up' as in her attunement thing

a mind pick up

[lusty plinth]

She won’t attune to him because he’s not a God, he doesn’t have godly resonance

[lusty plinth]

In canon, the Knight isn’t the one gathering the gods to the HoG, Godseeker can just attune to the gods on her own

[split compass]

how do you figure Zote doesn't have godly resonance? Godseeker never makes that kind of statement about him
damn near everything does, even regular enemies

[split compass]

she says that, yes, but she also encourages TK to take the godtuner and tune gods for her
if she doesn't strictly need TK or the tuner, she still seems to be using them
maybe it's faster to have the help
but i do agree that she can do it on her own

[lusty plinth]

Even regular enemies?

[split compass]

yeah, there's statues of husks and things in the Hall of Gods

you don't fight them, but they're in there, in the background etc.

[lusty plinth]

Thou covet the Godtuner. Desire beyond desire! Take it then, for We have ascended beyond it. No need for such an instrument.

The only reason you have to fight them in the overworld first is a gameplay one

[lusty plinth]

I forgot about this

[split compass]

Take the Godtuner and seek ye the Gods! Seek! That they may find their way. Tuned to mind. Tuned to home.

[lusty plinth]

Perhaps the Godseekers just have them there as "subjects" of the real gods?

[split compass]

it's funnier if they are also considered gods, because the Godseekers' standards for god-hood are very broad

[lusty plinth]

We listen for them here. But some Gods are distant still. Must be awoken.

TK isn't attuning to them they're just waking them up so that they can be heard more easily

GS would get to them sooner or later

[lusty plinth]

same idea as hornet "enlivening" the old hearts perhaps

[split compass]

her very next line is encouraging TK to take the Godtuner and seek them out so they can be tuned to her mind and brought to Godhome
like I was saying earlier - she can probably do it on her own eventually, but she seems to be using TK and the Godtuner to speed things up

though actually yes, I did find it interesting to compare the Elegy of the Deep spell to the Godseeker

they aren't very similar, but I liked the idea that both powers, tuning and the Elegy, are tapping into the land's ancient memories

GS does say she's tuning to the 'gods of Hallownest', the kingdom, and the final pantheon is also named after the land

I wondered if some of the 'gods' in Godhome, like the dream warriors who should be completely consumed by the Dreamnail, might be memories of the kingdom itself

not the inhabitants, but the very land, the memories of Hallownest

[lusty plinth]

Does the Dream Nail fully erase the DWs?

I would think the echo of their tunes i.e. resonance remain

[split compass]

not exactly erases, but the Seer mentions that she can see the memories inside the dream nail

Looking into it I can see so many memories peering back at me. So many asking to be remembered.

so the Essence that came from the original bug and formed them should be there in the blade

which could mean the memories of those bosses that become the 'gods' in Godhome might be coming from somewhere else - like the land remembering them

and that might be what the 'echo' is, basically

[lusty plinth]

I don’t think so

I think they just emit the sound on their own

GS specifically talks about echo only in relation to PV and TK’s silence

[split compass]

I only used the term 'echo' to refer to what you said before, about how their tune/resonance remains in the world even after the dream nail consumes their Essence

call it whatever you want, I don't think its source can be the Essence that the dream nail has consumed

so the memories that exist in Godhome are coming from something else

[lusty plinth]

Yeah I don’t think the land is remembering them the same way the Old Hearts represent the ancient power of the land

It’s just the song remains

[split compass]

maybe it's more like the Whispering Roots
they grow throughout the land, and seem to contain memories related to the region they grow in

[neat kite]

i broadly agree, resonance and attunement in Hollow Knight is light related mostly, and in ||Silksong|| it is song related, both sharing common themes of memories(in broad sense)

[loud crater]

Light related?

[split compass]

you mean because they seem to be Essence-related magic?

ironically, resonace and tune are both sound terms and would fit with song-related magic...

it's not exactly music like Elegy of the Deep, but they might both connect with a land's ancient memories

[loud crater]

Aren’t memories also made of essence or am I misremembering things?

[split compass]

yeah, they are

essence basically seems to encompass all 'mind stuff'

but it's still unclear how much Silksong's song-related magic ties into it

since we never see the usual dream catcher wheelies

[loud crater]

It’s all just fucking dreams man we’re all in the dream of a giant space whale thing dude.

[loud crater]

||Hornet doesn’t have dream nail and as such can’t see them||

[split compass]

it might literally just be that

she sees silk instead

because it's always silk with that girl

[loud crater]

It probably is just that.

No dream nail=no seeing essence.

[lusty plinth]

It could be that dreamcatchers and silk are "artifacts" of the different dream access methods

But I think Essence is somehow a purer version of the whole thing

See: Dream Nail gives you Soul, but Needolin requires Soul to use

[wraith trellis]

Isn't that an assumption?

Was there ever a confirmation that said the radiance never existed physically?

[mighty dove]

Well, they do exist physically, but in the Dream World.

[split compass]

yes, actually

I'm not 100% sure myself any longer that she never had physical form - the statue in Hallownest's Crown makes me wonder

but it's not unprecedented for higher beings to exist completely in the dream realm - Nightmare Heart for example

[neat kite]

i think she only existed in dream realm

[indigo venture]

TNH Doesnt exist in the dream realm though

[neat kite]

Nightmare Realm is basically Dream Realm

[indigo venture]

Yeah but it isnt

It was at one time but it technically isnt

[neat kite]

Nightmare is type of Dream

[indigo venture]

Semantics

Something something Forced to be apart

[neat kite]

i mean, you made semantic argument

[acoustic nexus]

Quick question about the ||dreamers and the whole concept. In the sealed siblings ending, hornet became the seal and she was inside the temple. But the other ones were all sealed outside and thats why the knight was able to kill them and break the seals. So if hornet is inside the temple, doesn't that mean, the kingdom is safe and the infection is contained with that ending itself?||

[split compass]

it's dream realm adjacent at least
same general zone

[lusty plinth]

Unless the Infection starts to leak like it did with THK

In which case no one can get in to kill TK and replace it since the key (Hornet) is now locked inside

[indigo venture]

It doesnt depend on the dreamers at all if the Infection gets out or not, its solely on the vessel

So no, Kingdom is as fucked as always

Also no need to spoiler tags here in this channel

[acoustic nexus]

thats true. so that means, our knight isnt truly hollow either?

[indigo venture]

Ye

[lusty plinth]

Prolly

[acoustic nexus]

thanks, i thought the whole paragraph will be deleted lol

[indigo venture]

This aint #hk-help

[indigo venture]

Probably

[split compass]

I believe in you, little knight
but that would mean that hornet and tk are trapped in there for all eternity, so... still not great

[indigo venture]

I mean Hornet is getting weakened by the "Minute" no?

Couldnt she die from that or something

[split compass]

maybe? dreamer magic puts shields around the other ones that seem to protect them from harm though, so that might be happening to her

herrah and lurien had infected around them at least and they never got attacked

though maybe the infected wouldn't care? I don't know

you can't physically attack the dreamers with nail or spell or anything though

[acoustic nexus]

do all bugs in the hollownest have the ability to enter dream realms

[split compass]

aside from like regular dreaming? no, only a couple can

TK with the dream nail, and PK did with magic, etc.

[indigo venture]

Where would Hornets "Shields" come from though

[marble birch]

No. The only entity able to actively invade others’ dreams is the Knight/Ghost.

[indigo venture]

Like dreamers duh, it seems like something PK could do

[marble birch]

Yeah the King is the one who made the protective Spell for the Dreamers, to my knowledge.

[split compass]

a built-in part of the Dreamer magic maybe? the shields over the other Dreamers are dream-based
might come with the whole 'getting your face on the door to the Egg' deal

[acoustic nexus]

another question i had since white palace. there were a bunch of guards, the white knights, dead in that palace. right before pale king. could that mean there have been other people who tried to do the same thing the knight did or maybe they just died of something else

cause two guards were still alive. only the rest were dead

[marble birch]

The Kingsmoulds are Void constructs, so it’s possible they fell to disrepair after so long without maintenance, and the liquid Void holding them together seeped out.

[split compass]

yeah, we don't know why they died - lotta theories~!

[loud crater]

The Kingsmolds guarding the PK had some programming to protect him so when they say or felt he had died they malfunctioned and fell apart.(personal theory at least)

[acoustic nexus]

i like this one

[indigo venture]

Like Void

[acoustic nexus]

feels very pale king thing to do too

[loud crater]

Wdym Void?

[indigo venture]

Killing PK

[split compass]

the mental conflict one is fun

[indigo venture]

Suicide is possible too imo

[loud crater]

[indigo venture]

Probably just Grief though

[indigo venture]

Hey Horf I actually had a question for yu

[split compass]

we're actually talking about how the guards died, not how PK died

[indigo venture]

Oh

Mb Its just the usual so I just assumed

[loud crater]

What?

[indigo venture]

Maybe its because their function is done (Due to PK dying) so they just kinda slumped over

[indigo venture]

Would you consider Vessels pale beings

[loud crater]

No.

[indigo venture]

Or Higher beings in general

[indigo venture]

Agree

[loud crater]

In general, no. TK is an exception because of VoidHeart.

[marble birch]

I mean. Come to think of it, the Vessels are the direct children of the Pale King and White Lady, so. Wouldn’t that make them Higher Beings by default in the sense that they’re Godlings?

[loud crater]

Void screwed them over so no.

[indigo venture]

The Original children yes, Vessels no

I consider the actual spawns of PK and WL and Vessels are two different beings

[acoustic nexus]

wait original? who?

[indigo venture]

The one who the shell vessels use belonged to

[loud crater]

The Vessels before they got Hollowed.

[split compass]

I don't think the children of gods are necessarily gods themselves
the pale children might have been part of the whole 'pale being/higher caste' group without being full-on god-tier higher beings (same deal with Hornet)

[indigo venture]

If void imprinted by a Higher Beings will count as Higher Beings, Kingsmoulds should count

[acoustic nexus]

ohhh

[indigo venture]

Assuming they were imprinted by PK indeed

[hot lily]

they clearly don't

[indigo venture]

ye

[edgy viper]

What

Who were the og children

[wanton zephyr]

The shell (and flesh) of the vessels
Before the void ate that flesh and took the shell

[split compass]

the pale babies of PK and WL

[young rain]

@dreamy horizon these are her roots

[dreamy horizon]

Oh
I thought thats what it was about

I just now see the ropes

I thought that was clothing

[young rain]

We’re not sure if it’s ropes or something else

But yeah

[wraith trellis]

Yes but the nightmare heart has its physical vessel being grimm

[neat kite]

i don't think Radiance needs physical Vessel or avatar, it is very possible she always existed in dream realm

[dusk helm]

When is silksong chapter 3 coming out?

[mint moth]

I am a hk pro and love the lore is there anything that I am missing on about?

[signal marlin]

its not possible for us to know what u dont know

[honest citrus]

what questions do you have on the lore

[mint moth]

I wanna know abt these siblings of the pale king with there relationship with the shade/void Lord

[honest citrus]

[there may be mistakes in this paragraph]

The shade lord is ghost,[player character] ascended to godhood and the void incarnate. The siblings are used to make the shade lord as big as it is, but the will of it is ghosts and ghosts alone. Ghost is the void, and unifies the void under its own will.

[indigo venture]

Except when it doesnt

[mint moth]

What I'm saying the ghost "becomes" the void lord at the end time of the game but what is ts void and what the main purpose and lastly what happens to ghost does never gets his control back on his consciousness?

[mint moth]

U an artist?

[sullen goblet]

When does lebron james dunk on hornet

i got the game

when does lebron james dunk on hornet

what about travis scott

does the knight have to fight travis scott at the champion of fools

[honest citrus]

the shade lord is ghost. ghost is in control. and the void is just a liquid that consumes anything essentially.

that's the extent of my knowledge

[mint moth]

Ts is new info for me. W mate

[honest citrus]

Not professional, I just like to draw, i am not that good but I try.

[indigo venture]

The Knight becomes Void Given Focus but can go back to Its original form at will

[mint moth]

I like ur profile it looks nice

[indigo venture]

We can see it do this during Godseeker mode

[honest citrus]

Np dawg, there are hundreds of videos on the shade lord with theorys and such.

[indigo venture]

Not that many actually

Also dont take things you heard in videos as gospel, ALWAYS double check yourself

[honest citrus]

thanks, i did not draw it though. I just yoinked it from somewhere

[mint moth]

Lol

Ty again

[honest citrus]

YES this is important, especially with things like the shade lord

[honest citrus]

I thought there would be more tbh

[mint moth]

Ts is reason I came here at first place

[indigo venture]

What did yu want to know

[mint moth]

.

[pure inlet]

No it’s all still ghost

When it gets void heart it becomes the lord of shades which allows it to unify void under its will

[indigo venture]

Except when it doesnt

[pure inlet]

Then “void given form” is what it uses to bear Radiance and that’s still it

[indigo venture]

Void Given Form is Lord of shades and Void Given Focus is lord of shades sqrt

[pure inlet]

Void Given Focus is the big one at the end of Godhome but that’s just it with more powerful void manipulation

Still the knight

[honest citrus]

the shade lord is just ghost but locked in lol

[indigo venture]

Not really

Its TK + Godseekers Focus

[mint moth]

Rn I'm eating or I say something rn

[indigo venture]

I dunno if Godseekers focus has a special name or just "Focus"

@pure inlet Does Godseekers focus have a special name

[honest citrus]

ik its a joke

[pure inlet]

No not really

People usually say that or like godly focus

We know about it only because of the weathered mask journal entry (“wearers thoughts were focused through the crest”) and void given focus

But that’s how we get stuff like PV and Absrad

[honest citrus]

PV is just prime hollow knight I thought?

Before all the infections stuff

[pure inlet]

Yeah but they get it by attuning to and focusing on THK in the black egg

[honest citrus]

Ahhh i see i understand now

[vast marten]

Is grimm a good guy,cuz we have the normal version doing the ritual with you,bowing and sparing,and then there's nkg

[loud crater]

He’s just trying to sustain the Nightmare Heart.

NKG is just a dream version of Grimm.

It’s not personal it’s just how the ritual goes.

[dusk helm]

So like Grimm is evil since his circus takes over kingdoms

[timber snow]

they don’t take over the kingdom

[dusk helm]

?

What happens to them then?

[timber snow]

they stay for a while and harvest the flames of a dead kingdom to sustain the nightmare heart
keyword being dead, there isn’t anything to take over

[dusk helm]

Oh it

Ig

[vast marten]

Yeah exactly,and it really feels like nkg just has beef with you

[dusk helm]

You are invading his mind

What do you think will happen

[vast marten]

He literally wants you to

[timber snow]

by his own admission

[dusk helm]

And even then he is respectful

He dances with you

[timber snow]

NKG is probably just locked in with the ritual
no time for showmanship we gotta get it done

[dusk helm]

Frrrr

[vast marten]

If you don't get grimmchild his dream nail dialouge when hes sleeping is "the child" implying he wants you to enter but you need to have grimmchild

[dusk helm]

Ik

Believe me I didn’t want to waste 2 notches on that little !$&@

Kaboom? Yes Rico, Kaboom

[indigo venture]

I take it more as that Grimmchild is the key between the Nightmare Realm and Physical world

Like Dreamnail is to the Dream Realm and Physical world

[indigo venture]

Maybe NKG is just trying his damndest because he knows that will be the last thing he does before getting eaten

[lusty plinth]

What does he do if he enters a kingdom where no one has dream powers

[indigo venture]

They'll figure it out

[sage bronze]

Whoever lit the lantern could participate

[lusty plinth]

Oh yeah I forgot about dat

[potent yarrow]

Is the nightmare realm separate from the dream realm.

[indigo venture]

Yes, they are forced apart

[potent yarrow]

@indigo venture forced by what?

[indigo venture]

We dunno'

They just are

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Nightmare King Grimm

Description:
Twisted spectre of scarlet flame.

Hunter's notes:
"The expanse of dream in past was split,
One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart."
- Seer

Dream Nail:
(Nightmare Realm)
Heart of Flame...
In dreams... Born anew...
Power... Fear...

(Godhome)
Gods... bound by ritual...
Deepest power... the Heart...
Scattered lands... Nightmare binds all...

@megathekindly used /journal name: Nightmare King Grimm

[indigo venture]

It was split in the past, by what or how we don't know, it just happened

[potent yarrow]

@indigo venture interesting

[indigo venture]

You can just reply to me

[potent yarrow]

Ok

Is the shell for the knight just a random bug or was it crafted or smth like that?

[indigo venture]

Its the shell of a dead child

[potent yarrow]

That's kinda dark

But so is a lot of things

I hk

In*

[lusty plinth]

Children of Pale King and White Lady thrown into the Abyss -> killed in the egg by Void -> innards of the Shell replaced by Void -> new Void being with some level of will present from the original shell

[potent yarrow]

If we were thrown in the void. Why do we start in hollowing cliffs on the complete opposite corner of the abyss

[lusty plinth]

Several Vessels managed to escape the Abyss on their own, our Knight did this and left Hallownest

[potent yarrow]

O I see

[lusty plinth]

It was later drawn back by the Hollow Knight’s cry when the Infection started to leak out of it

[heady meadow]

It's literally in the cutscene

Anyways

(～￣▽￣)～

[potent yarrow]

Im sorta new to the lore

[heady meadow]

I don't know anything either

[lusty plinth]

Anything you want to know

[pure inlet]

I can explain

Me

Not him

[indigo venture]

[lusty plinth]

Who is the ravelled

[pure inlet]

The ravelled?

Wait did they ravel him back

Holy shit

[indigo venture]

Swislog

[agile bough]

Yeah see

Oh wait

Yeah my iq dropped by 90

[wraith trellis]

Yes but you guys are really adamant on the fact that she never had a physical existence

The absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence.

[neat kite]

absence of evidence is not evidence of presence either...

[wraith trellis]

Yes

My point still stands nonetheless

[signal marlin]

this isnt an absolute rule and this summarized version of it isnt really accurate

[neat kite]

it is wide consensus that Radiance was never implied to have physical form, closest thing that we even see is Infection, unless you make point Infection is Radiance's physical form

[neat kite]

A thorough, well‑designed search that yields nothing can turn the mere absence of evidence into meaningful evidence against the claim, even though a single missing datum never proves non‑existence outright.

[wraith trellis]

Sure

Whats the main evidence that makes it so the radiance has never been physical btw?

[neat kite]

Radiance's only recorded physical manifestation is Infection

[wraith trellis]

You literally see the radiance come out of the hollow knight no?

[signal marlin]

yes its mostly just about what evidence is expected to be found...

[wraith trellis]

My main point against that is really just how did she get sealed then?

[neat kite]

that's infection/radince's light, it looks like Radiance because her influence tears veil between Physical and Dream realm, slightly

[wraith trellis]

How could the hollow knight seal her within himself when she had no physical form nor vessel

[neat kite]

her physical form could be infection, at least, heart of Infection with blazing Light

[lusty plinth]

I think it just stems from if she had a physical form why didn’t PK just get the Knights to beat the shit out of her

[wraith trellis]

That's the radiance itself no? The one sealed inside the hollow knight? This is the point in the game in which you become the hollow knight

[wraith trellis]

Because they can't?

[neat kite]

why can't they if she has physical form

[wraith trellis]

Why do people seal things

It's because they're unable to kill them

Having a physical form would not mean that she isn't still immortal??

[lusty plinth]

Immortal in HK just means doesn’t die of old age

PK and Silk die just fine

[split compass]

I'm not opposed to the idea that she had a physical form - the statue in Hallownest's crown makes me wonder
but she was sealed away in dreams by her followers forgetting her, which is what happens when a dream is forgotten
and I think if she was present in the waking world in a physical form, it would have been a lot harder to forget her

[neat kite]

sure but this isn't her physical form in physical realm, that's dream form in physical realm because veil between physical realm and dream realm was influenced

[wraith trellis]

The pale king died from unnatural causes? Plus he wasn't even in his true form anymore

[neat kite]

we also see statues that resemble Mothkin's dream form more than physical form, so Mothkin likely made statues based on Dream form

[neat kite]

i mean point is Radiance's being functionally immortal doesn't mean she can't be killed

[lusty plinth]

The forgetting thing is the biggest

Good job yak

[wraith trellis]

I mean the moth tribe forgetting her was more so they willingly did it no?

[split compass]

certainly possible
though, I find it interesting that the structures in Hallownest's crown don't really match the Moth construction elsewhere, like in Resting Grounds
no Essence iconography, and the tablets seem more like AC rune tablets

[neat kite]

how you physical god be forgotten, she is standing right there

[wraith trellis]

What I'm trying to say is she would still be as strong as she was

And you would still need the void to be able to defeat her light

[neat kite]

true, that maybe be older mothkin's statue, after all, radiance and AC coexisted, it is possible mothkin were different because societies change

[lusty plinth]

His bug form is just as true as his Wyrm form

It certainly wasn’t any weaker

[wraith trellis]

I'd say he'd have been physically weaker no?

[signal marlin]

depends on who you ask but its all abductive. there isnt necessarily any explicit or univocal text saying it

[neat kite]

Dung Defender says: We knights defend against the physical, but a formless enemy. How to defeat such a foe?

Our King tried in his own way. A cruel means it was... And still, eventually, we were brought low.
Bah! I shouldn't be so morose. You've invigorated me. Tis' [sic] truly a delight to meet one whose strength can match my own.

[split compass]

yeah, but the result was that Radiance was sealed away, which is what happens to dreams that are forgotten also
I think that'd be pretty hard to do, deliberately or not, if the god was hanging around getting in your face
https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-14-2022/0Xt7K7.gif

[neat kite]

that pretty much proves Radiance doesn't have physical form

[wraith trellis]

I mean maybe she wasn't trying idk man

[wraith trellis]

When does he say this?

[lusty plinth]

Like pure muscle sure

[neat kite]

After the fight

[lusty plinth]

But he was still highly skilled with Soul and Essence manipulation

[wraith trellis]

Yes

[wraith trellis]

After the dung defender fight?

[neat kite]

yeah

at least we now know Radiance isn't physical

[wraith trellis]

Or

[signal marlin]

[wraith trellis]

He could mean that her way of fighting is non physical?

And therefore he couldn't do much to actually stop that?

Or

[signal marlin]

hes most likely just talking about the infection yes

[neat kite]

Infection is only physical manifestation of radiance

[wraith trellis]

The infection itself is an attack to the mind

The radiance isn't physically attacking anyone

[signal marlin]

idk how ts matters

[lusty plinth]

Except for the zombies

[neat kite]

it matters to some falsely thinking radiance had physical form

[signal marlin]

radiances form is distinct from the manifestation of the infection, the quote is most likely concered with the latter

[wraith trellis]

I mean that's not really the radiance itself but kinda just what she created

[signal marlin]

ogrim might not even know about the radiance anyway

because hes so mid...

[wraith trellis]

How does your statement disprove mine?

[neat kite]

Radiance's Form only exist in Dream Realm, their influence only manifest's as physical form of infection, Dung Defender says they defend against physical enemies, meaning that radiance never had physical form to defend against

[neat kite]

because what can be asserted without evidence can be disproved without evidence as well

[signal marlin]

if its read as enemy referring to radiance then it explictly does but thats probably not what the quote is about

[wraith trellis]

No?

Ogrim could mean that he cannot attack the infection considering they are just civilians of the kingdom

[neat kite]

yes

[wraith trellis]

Yes

Ogrim physically cannot stop the infection because it's not something that physically happens and only occurs in their dreams.

He cannot fight this supposed enemy

Because he cannot understand what is actually going on

[neat kite]

it also means that if Radiance had physical form, they could have defended against it

[wraith trellis]

Why?

[neat kite]

because Dung Defender says so

[wraith trellis]

He could defend against it but I doubt he would know the existence of the radiance? And do you think the knights could defeat a higher being?

[signal marlin]

ts is just a non sequitur - it doesnt follow from this that radiance never had a physical form

[wraith trellis]

I doubt he would have succeeded if he tried

[neat kite]

We knights defend against the physical,(this can indeed include gods even if they themselves don't attack in physical sense) but a formless enemy.(this refers to infection, only physical manifestation of radiance) How to defeat such a foe?

[wraith trellis]

I also think he was too busy with the infection going on the entire kingdom

[neat kite]

if rad did, they could have defended against it

[neat kite]

bad argument, considering said higher being is source of infection

[wraith trellis]

Infection is a physical manifestation but not a physical attack.

[wraith trellis]

How?

[neat kite]

if she existed physically, i doubt dung defender wouldn't know about her

[lusty plinth]

He absolutely could have

[neat kite]

somebody busy with infection would want to eradicate cause of it

[lusty plinth]

It just wouldn’t have worked

They quarantined the city and everyone still got infected

[wraith trellis]

If the kingdom was in distress he would have chose to defend the people instead of attacking the opposing enemy?

[neat kite]

but if Radiance had physical form they at least would be able to a attack it

[wraith trellis]

He's the most loyal knight

[lusty plinth]

I agree with you here

[wraith trellis]

I doubt he would

[lusty plinth]

But on the subject of attacking the Infected to curb the Infection

[neat kite]

defend people? in what sense, they can do nothing about it, except if radiance's physical form exist, attacking that would be only thing to do to defend kingdom

Dung Defender says they explicitly defend against physical threats, which would include radiance if she had form

[wraith trellis]

I don't think they would have been able to

[lusty plinth]

They absolutely would 😭

[wraith trellis]

The only way for the radiance to be defeated was through the void?

[signal marlin]

this also doesnt exactly follow as it assumes that if the radiance had a physical form, then the knights or ogrim would necessarily have fought it. however nothing establishes that conclusion

[neat kite]

also how can Physical Being be forgotten like Dream beings are?

[lusty plinth]

They killed a Wyrm

[wraith trellis]

Attack sure but kill?

[wraith trellis]

The influence of another higher being

[neat kite]

where is this said?

[wraith trellis]

Similarly to how unn is forgotten when the infection takes over greenpath?

[neat kite]

she isn't...

[signal marlin]

🕊️ unn...

[lusty plinth]

If she could be attacked they would have attacked
If she couldn’t be killed Ogrim wouldn’t be around to tell us about it, he would be dead

[wraith trellis]

The only time we saw the radiance defeated was through void? And the pale king uses void for the vessel to seal the radiance

[neat kite]

Physical being can't be sealed away from being forgotten, Radiance was... Un despite not being not worshiped is not sealed away

[signal marlin]

void is the only thing we see that can kill radiance. we cant know if its the only thing

[wraith trellis]

Why would the pale king use void then?

[signal marlin]

it could be fitting thematically though

[wraith trellis]

It's the natural counter to her light

[neat kite]

that doesn't mean Radiance can't be attacked, knight attacks it with his nail, Ogrim and other Great Knight would have attacked it to at least weaken it

[lusty plinth]

Darkness is very good at snuffing out light yes

But if the Knight’s nail was doing nothing to her why did she keep running away

[signal marlin]

PK using void doesnt mean its the only thing capable, it could simply be the most fitting thing he found, and lots of it

[young rain]

she isnt confirmed to have a physical body

[neat kite]

also i would like to reinforce this argument, since nobody has been able to address it

[neat kite]

exactly... that's side i am on

[signal marlin]

also he didnt intend to use void to kill radiance either

[neat kite]

where is proof that Radiance had physical body?

[signal marlin]

none

[wraith trellis]

Because he couldnt unify the void?

[wraith trellis]

Mainly I believe she had a physical body is because she's in a physical vessel that's really it

[lusty plinth]

We don’t even really use the Void’s darkness to kill her, we just use the unified power to beat the shit out of her

[signal marlin]

nothing suggests he knew about that or wanted to. his idea was just to contain radiance to stop her

[neat kite]

he only wanted radiance to die from being forgotten, which is only death that matters at least for Dream Beings

[neat kite]

Pale king's strategy depends on Radiance being Dream Based

[wraith trellis]

Isn't the pale king a light based higher being?

Therefore he could not truly wield the void like the knight?

So he used that strategy?

Also

[signal marlin]

she isnt like physically stored in THK

[wraith trellis]

?

[signal marlin]

the idea that radiance is physical because shes in a physical being only makes sense if you suppose she exists physically in the vessel

[wraith trellis]

Why is it treated like she is? There's a physical barrier guarding the temple which hosts a physical vessel with physical chains.

Chat

[neat kite]

that is for THK to remain intact

[wraith trellis]

I'm lowkey arguing for the sake of arguing

[wraith trellis]

What does that mean

[signal marlin]

those are unrelated though whats true for those parts wont be true for a whole system/radiance (even then thats a loose connection). when you fight radiance, you have to dream nail THK

[wraith trellis]

Yeah?

You have to dream nail the physical vessel being the hollow knight

You cannot fight the radiance by dream nailing anyone

[signal marlin]

adding physical here doesnt mean anything