hk-lore

[hallow swallow]

he's a vessel no?

[valid rapids]

Lost kin is weird but it died and the shade left its body. The essence ghost at the end isnt of the vessel but of the shell.

Thats how I rationalize it at least

[hallow swallow]

ok

then noam

nosk*

how did the vessels escape the abyss and ended up in deepest

nest*

[valid rapids]

Secret tunnel

Plus we now know the abyss spans across the world its not only in Hallownest

[heavy ice]

i bet hornet will die if she tries to bind hk in ss and dnm ending

[indigo venture]

What

[vale oyster]

Skong spoilers: ||she was able to bind gms without dying. Binding sealed siblings knight wouldn't kill her imo||

[hallow swallow]

hi

[grave edge]

Is hornet older than the vessels?

[timber void]

I doubt she even could, all instances of her binding something is when it contains silk, which the vessels don't have

[timber void]

In silksong (spoilers) || it is confirmed that the vessels are older than hornet ||

[left flume]

How can Hornet create silk ?

[indigo venture]

Spider stuff

[left flume]

Ok thanks

[wanton zephyr]

Wait how did it confirm it..

[indigo venture]

Why does GS look different in godhome

[timber snow]

she’s just in her small form before hibernation, all wrapped up, but having a different dream form from your real one isn’t unheard of

think of seer

[indigo venture]

Does she choose the form she has in Godhome?

[timber snow]

she considers her bigger form to be majestic and beautiful, so i’d say if she could choose she’d be bigger

[timber void]

Its kinda like the moths having dream forms. I imagine all the godseekers looks the the junkpit godseeker, but in their dreams they look like mummies. Even their "old gods" looks like the junkpit godseeker.

[timber void]

Its shown || that Hornet was born right before the Hollow Knight was sealed, meaning the vessels are older. ||

[wanton zephyr]

I’m not sure it showed that

[timber void]

I mean Hornet||was still a baby by the time the Hollow Knight was fully grown so||

[wanton zephyr]

where did it show that?
I don’t see || THK in silksong ||

[timber void]

Remember||, Herrah told Hornet she was about to go to sleep, meaning the Hollow Knight was already grown and trained, and ready to be sealed in the black egg, all while Hornet was still a baby||

[wanton zephyr]

Did Herrah say that?
Quote it

[indigo venture]

Here

[wanton zephyr]

Doesn’t sound like she’s saying that for a specified point in time

|| “before I lay forever in duty” || could be in years for all we know

[timber void]

||...A mother... before the mask... before i lay forever in duty...||

[wanton zephyr]

I’m not doubting that Hornet is younger than the vessels but these evidence arent really strong enough

A better evidence is Hornet and Herrah are permitted little time together

Which was said in hollow knight

[timber void]

Why didn't Herrah raise her then?

These 2 pieces of evidence intetwine with one another

[remote bramble]

Hornet also doesn't remember herrah without the mask

[unreal ferry]

Is zote from pharloom

[heavy ice]

she isnt pure to hold radiance lol

so she will die

no doubt

ig

[vale oyster]

True I forgot that she would absorb the radiance too

[grave eagle]

I don't think she would actually die but more like become a vessel for the radiance by that I mean that radiance will have full control of her body

[real wagon]

why does || hk have to kill hornet here? ||

#hk-help message

[plush hatch]

Doesnt kill her

Only proves his worth

[real wagon]

i mean fight

[plush hatch]

Hornet tests all the vessels, to see if theyre skilled enough to complete their mission

[real wagon]

ohhh

[real wagon]

so her dialogue is just a ploy?

[plush hatch]

She tries to kill the vessel

[real wagon]

no but she says smth like || i know what ur up to and i wont let you complete it or something||

[plush hatch]

Oh yeah

I think thats cus she doesn’t want the knight to replace the HK

And she doesnt want the knight to wake the dreamers

[real wagon]

ooh halr

[grave edge]

Can you explain me better? I want the sources that say this

[real wagon]

what is this #hk-help message

[plush hatch]

The dreamers

[real wagon]

whos that

[green pilot]

Tbh I would recommend not spoiling yourself on the story

[real wagon]

wait do u learn it later in the story

[green pilot]

Yes

[real wagon]

oh

[real wagon]

can u help me w this question rq #hk-help message

[green pilot]

Go play the game and try and figure it out on your own. After completing the game you can come back here and ask some questions :)

[real wagon]

o

[fast fjord]

It’s not

[real wagon]

well i dont have the tools to progress past that

cuz i js fought hornet for the first time in greenpath

[fast fjord]

How do u do the thingy where u make the text grey

[real wagon]

!spoliers

!spoilers

#hk-help message

bro i feel like ik u from somewhere @fast fjord

[fast fjord]

Idk maybe

[real wagon]

do u know this : youtube.com/channel/UCJ3W85mjh3atFPeOpXJhfsA

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ3W85mjh3atFPeOpXJhfsA

[fast fjord]

Nope

[real wagon]

o alr

[fast fjord]

Not that I can remember at least

Anyways

u need ||isma’s tear, its an item u get a little later that lets u swim in acid||

[plucky whale]

If dreamers are like keys for the Black Egg seal to open
Why don't they put up a fight ? Like ik they're sleeping, but fight in dream ?
Or is it considered that the bugs around them are the ones that are protecting the dreamers from being approached?
Like the weavers n spiders, Uumuu & Watcher Knights?
They aren't just hostile bugs but actually given jobs to protect those dreams ?

Ah...

[lusty rose]

they all had their own forms of protection, I'd figure if the actual dreamers fought they wouldnt do much

[plucky whale]

I can only imagine them summoning n atk like
Herrah would summon weavers n just be in an invincible state like Uumuu

And when you finish the wave... they'd get angry n atk you which will leave them vulnerable...

The cycle continues by progressive increase in diff.

[wheat warren]

Maybe they agreed to let the seals break?

If Monomon actually wanted to stay alive then Uumuu would be invincible, and the seal is undreamnailable

Herrah won't have them actively bring us closer to Herrah

Lurien can't do anything

[plucky whale]

Yeah more like
They wanted them to be broken by the RIGHT ONE
coz Quirrel won't give away the Seal to some lameoh

That Quirrel seal played a major role imo

[valid rapids]

They kinda cant fight 😭 their one thing was throwing TK into the forgotten dream to be forgotten and fade away, but Seer intervened and saved it

[plucky whale]

Oooh Seer's that light in the dream that gives u DN ?

Maybe the entire moth tribe helped TK in guilt of their god being a jerk

[blissful crest]

the rest of them are dead

[wheat warren]

Counterpoint: Markoth

[split compass]

Markoth is also dead
(also he seems to hate TK)

I guess he contributes Essence to TK's cause, even if its unwillingly

[minor birch]

he could be testing TK to see if hes worthy

[timber void]

In silksong||, Herrah told Hornet she was about to go to sleep, meaning the Hollow Knight was already grown and trained, and ready to be sealed in the black egg, all while Hornet was still a baby. This shows that the Hollow Knight was already born, raised and trained, and Hornet was born right before he was going to be sealed it seems. We also know this is the case, because in the first game, the White Lady says that Hornet and her Mother were permitted little time together, meaning her mother went to sleep, shortly after Hornet was born.||

[grave edge]

thanks! this really helped me

[onyx shadow]

this SS info seems really interesting but I don't think I'll ever read it as I won't play the game soon

[soft linden]

OooooOOOOH

There were all those void gates in hk

So only those ||holding the everbloom|| could go through

Only ||members of the King's court||

[lusty rose]

Silksong spoilers

[soft linden]

Yadda yadda, fine

[light cedar]

Zotes coliseum dream nail dialogue is confusing the fuck out of me

[timber void]

Whats confusing about daddy issues? 🤣

[main junco]

I think the god tamers god to the lifeblood creature is what the moths are to the radiance

[lusty rose]

What

[main junco]

Like yaknow how the radiance made the moths in her image(or the other way idk)

So the abyss creatures made the species of the god tamer in Thier image

[lusty rose]

Not following

Why are the abyss creatures related to God tamer

[main junco]

Look at the god tamers beast

The ant is unrelated

[light cedar]

Moreso who his father is

[lusty rose]

Ok

Still not following

What does the beast have to do with the abyss

[light cedar]

My pet theory is that he's the offspring of Lord Fool, and Lord Fool is a fellow wyrm like the pale king who reincarnated into a more normal bug form

Which is why zote looks so much like the knight and other vessels

[main junco]

Look at the eyes

The coliseum has thing for masks so the shape doesn't matter

[light cedar]

You might wanna reword this

[lusty rose]

Huh

[main junco]

The shape of the eyes

[timber void]

Its explained in the hunters journal that the vessels looks like normal bugs

We see a lot of bugs all throughout the game that has similarities to the vessels, even if the vessels are higher beings.

[young wagon]

Ok so like is The Dashmaster in anyway connected to the Soul Sanctum guys?

[light cedar]

Ah

Well my other theory for Zote is that he's somehow the same species as elderbug

[timber void]

Doubt it, they just look similar

[light cedar]

But the colliseum line just confuses the fuck out of me

[timber void]

Yeah probably, those beetle like bugs seem to be very prominent

[timber void]

Why specifically

[light cedar]

Because nothing else about his pathetic ass would suggest he's on some kind of quest for someone else's approval

And how would he slay a thousand beasts

[timber void]

Hes very contradictory, he puts up a front of not caring, but i think deep inside he is very insecure

[timber void]

He didn't

[broken coral]

"Precept Fifteen: 'One Foe, One Blow'. You should only use a single blow to defeat an enemy. Any more is a waste. Also, by counting your blows as you fight, you'll know how many foes you've defeated." he didnt slay 1000 beasts he has hit one 1000 times

[autumn dome]

Wh

[autumn dome]

No

They don't look at all similar

We dont even have a full look for the abyss creature

[serene burrow]

yeah the abyss creatures is just part of the abyss

its just a more tangible form

[sage igloo]

MR MUSHROOOOOOM🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

[autumn dome]

Okay so hold up, no, we don't know enough about it to claim that

For all we know the file name just refers to it's placement

That entire sequence clearly is somewhat placed in the dream realm

[knotty depot]

is there lore about how vespa's corpse in the hive is giant while we know she was small as any bug

[valid rapids]

She got old

I think the wj talks about it

[autumn dome]

I am wondering

I was wondering the following

You guys think that the stains that bugs leave behind is, essentially what the abyss is composed of, or it just means that Knight's Shade is it's stain?

Mainly because this other comment

[rugged comet]

Jiji - Shade Locations - The Abyss and Anicent Basin

Only faintly though... a black stain deep below the world, surrounded by darkness. Almost a part of it...

@social_so_sus used /npcs merchants name: Jiji category: Shade Locations dialogue: The Abyss and Anicent Basin

Jiji - General - First Encounter

Welcome, small intruder. I've been sound asleep in here for some time...Some, time? Ah. Yes. Yes. Well now you've gone and woken me up. It's no matter, I suppose. I might even be able to help you.
I am Jiji, and if you have found your way into my chamber you must need my help.
You see, sometimes we leave our regrets behind in the world, like black stains.
If we don't deal with these regrets, hope starts to drain from us.
Do you have regrets of your own, little one? Let me peer into you for a moment...

@social_so_sus used /npcs merchants name: Jiji category: General dialogue: First Encounter

[autumn dome]

Since black is rarely not associated with void

[knotty depot]

so she kept growing as she got older?

then was she young when she was training hornet

[karmic stream]

what exactly do we know about why thk grew? Ive been assuming it was simply due to something the pk did to make it more able to defend itslef or seal the radiane or something, and I know that it isnt something that there is much in-game evidence for, but i wondered if there was a widly accepted theory i didnt know about

[floral mist]

https://tenor.com/view/watering-can-anime-gif-27190612

[marble birch]

Everyone leaves something behind when they die. Ghost leaves behind something more tangible due to its nature as a Void construct.

[mighty dove]

Magic, or smth

Best guess we have rn

[blissful crest]

a.) silksong spoilers
b.) just cuz tc decided it looks better

[velvet cave]

Arrighty

[wanton zephyr]

We just know it’s trained and raised

With possibly voodoo (read: magic) cuz corpses cant grow normally

[karmic stream]

ok, thanks, thats what i though

[autumn dome]

We do know that Jiji's masters are, in a way, similar to the Voidheart, so I'm wondering if perhaps (and this is just speculation) the nature of steel does not produce these stains

[hallow swallow]

guys hear me out how can the shamans control soul and void but not essence

[hot lily]

i don't remember them ever commanding Void

[hallow swallow]

what about the deceased

like in which you get shade soul

[wanton zephyr]

That’s still a soul spell with a mild mix of void

Feels like they are void researchers than void manipulators

[mighty dove]

Holy shit a mod in #hk-lore, crazy

[native relic]

1

[pseudo lodge]

What about 1?

[native relic]

5

[pseudo lodge]

ok?

[native relic]

6?

[pseudo lodge]

9?

[pseudo lodge]

no

[native relic]

…8…

[pine karma]

Why team Cherry is the secret villian of Every Hollow Knight Game
Team Cherry creates every single inch in the timeline.
Team Cherry created every character every THING.
Therefore, Team Cherry created the Radiance and the Infection. And GMS and you get it team cherry controlled the villains blah blah
Also Team Cherry controls every character except the player's actions
Is this enough proof?
-# joke

(very true)

[mighty dove]

Go to #hk-lore
Look inside

Utter nonsense

[native relic]

9

[soft linden]

Y'know it makes sense that we can defeat the radiance through godhome
The radiance is a god that exists only on dream, subsists on them, lives on them

And NO ONE dreams bigger than the godseeker

[mighty dove]

I mean, yeah

[merry umbra]

fr

[hot lily]

<@&283547423706447872> scammer

[worthy magnet]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-hornet-hollow-knight-hollow-knight-hornet-hollow-knight-hollow-purple-gif-9899899781162073888

[lusty plinth]

That is a spell of the Knight’s own making, it didn’t receive it directly from the Snail like VS or HW

[low palm]

Explain ddark being in bumfuck nowhere crystal peak

[rugged comet]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@zorinus used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[indigo venture]

Snail Shamans, at least in Hallownest, never looked into the void

[split compass]

or at least, they never look into the Abyss, and don't recognize the spells the Ancient Civilization created

they remark with surprise on the AC spell and the spell the Knight makes by modifying their original Vengeful Spirit
but they don't comment on the Descending Dark other than to recognize it's a spell their aunt made

[reef vine]

U know how she’s crystallized that means that she could have lived a long time ago and who knows she might be the shaman of ancient civilization

[indigo venture]

[split compass]

she was fourth aunt to the Crossroads Shaman - that's a fairly distant relative, but they must have known her personally to recognize her spells, so snails can live a long time
if she'd been old enough to be part of the AC, I think the mordern shaman wouldn't fail to recognize AC spells

[lusty plinth]

Fourth aunt didn’t make descending dark

[pallid minnow]

wait so

what happended to the chill mask guy

did he like jumped into the river or somehting?

[split compass]

Listening after acquiring Descending Dark:
My friend. My friend. There's another quality about you yet. You didn't perchance visit my fourth aunt?
She makes her home beside that Crystal Mount. Leaves quite an impression on those that seek her out. Were I not bound here, I'd love to visit myself.

[split compass]

probably not

[pure inlet]

Maybe but probably not

[indigo venture]

Quirrel?

They probably died

[pure inlet]

He might have just walked off to peacefully die

[split compass]

a lot of people think it was more an 'aged to dust' thing

[pure inlet]

Or that as well

[lusty plinth]

Love how zero part of that mentions that’s her spell unlike desolate dive and howling wraiths

[split compass]

what do you mean? This is what's said in response to getting the Descending Dark spell from the crystal shaman, his fourth aunt
he comments on TK having a new power after visiting his fourth aunt, who could 'leave an impression', an allusion to making an impact
it's at least as explicit as the Desolate Dive spell - then, he only remarks on TK having the power to crack rock and his uncle had 'similar abilities'

[timber snow]

same thing that happened with zemer happened to him
his time was finished so he simply despawned

[lusty plinth]

So, not at all as explicit then

[split compass]

Desolate Dive - I sense something new about you. It reminds me of my third uncle.
Descending Dark - I sense something new about you. It reminds me of my fourth aunt.

?

[signal marlin]

it could be a reasonable interpretation but its far from being explicit

[pure inlet]

Well desolate dive was his spell

Descending dark has her “quality” because absorbing her gave us the Soul boost we needed to meld his spell with our void

She might not have even had a dive spell

[wanton zephyr]

it's not even "it reminds me of my fourth aunt". Upon acquiring descending dark, he asked "You didn't perchance visit my fourth aunt?" Like he's asserting that you must have visited her to have that spell like he doesn't know of any other method to obtain it

[pure inlet]

“There’s another quality about you”

It’s because we absorb her

He doesn’t actually make reference to our spell

[wanton zephyr]

So is she like, void, or something

Why is absorbing her making the dive dark

[pure inlet]

It’s the same thing that happens with Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.

The “powerful source” is the catalyst for us to merge some spell with our own void

We use shaman corpses as the catalyst as well as the AC soul vessel things in the Abyss

Void Heart is sort of similar

We merge Kingsoul with our own void with the gravity of our memories as a catalyst

Sorry wait I forgot the important part of the dialogue lma

[wanton zephyr]

I was like

[pure inlet]

You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

[wanton zephyr]

What powerful source are we referrencing

[pure inlet]

The shaman corpse

[wanton zephyr]

The two sentences go together-

[pure inlet]

But there’s no need for TC to write dialogue mentioning him specifically

Cause he’s probably the third uncle who had Dive

So TC already talked about him

[wanton zephyr]

Weird...

is the ancestral mound snail not powerful?

[pure inlet]

Yeah he is

[wanton zephyr]

Oh wait the snails has to be dead

[pure inlet]

I mean he has latent power

But he’s not an attacker

If we killed him and absorbed his corpse somehow we’d probably be able to make a soul spell void

[wanton zephyr]

I was like why didn't we just use the ancestral mound snail to make shade soul

[pure inlet]

The actual snail likely doesn’t matter that part is gameplay

[wanton zephyr]

he's still alive damn

Wait so he knew that fourth aunt is dead?

Why did he mention visiting then!!

[pure inlet]

He might have known

“You didn’t perchance visit my fourth aunt”

He knows you already went

Shrug maybe he didn’t know exactly how it went down

[wanton zephyr]

Yea and he still went ahead and said if i wasn't bound here I would love to visit myself

She's dead, you know this

[pure inlet]

True

[pallid minnow]

The mask prevented him from aging????

[split compass]

that's a popular theory - after he gives up the mask to allow you to kill Monomon, he mentions that he's starting to feel his age
next thing he does is go to Blue Lake, and then disappears

[pallid minnow]

Man...

[pure inlet]

Don’t be sad

He says himself he lived an amazing life had a good journey throughout Hallownest and barely remembers any of the terror of the infection

[pallid minnow]

Eh that's fair

[pallid minnow]

Wait atleast he's in the soul graveyard area right?

[cedar oriole]

guys the vessel in greenpath that has the mothwing cloth.. was it killed by hornet or something else?

[hot lily]

no

[hot lily]

yes

[timber void]

Probably killed by Hornet

[vast marten]

Wht does the void kill the godseeker

[pallid minnow]

to show dominace?

[faint spruce]

I think the void it didn’t just kill the godseeker for dominance but because it consume everything in its path

Also cuz they void never had anything against the godseeker only the radiance and since the radiance lives in the dream world where the godseeker live that’s why the void killed it cuz it basically just consumed everything in the dream world

[slim vapor]

Random Theory: the king put broken vessel in front of the wings to guard them.
We all know that when we take the wings the crossroads become infected for whatever reason, thing is they seem important to making sure the black egg is sealed correctly so it would make sense for pk to wanna have something guarding it. So he took one of the vessels the climbed out and gave him this task since he thought he wasn't going to be infected just like any vessel shouldn't. But something killed him...

Is this plausible?

[signal marlin]

no

and crossroads get infected due to time passing - wings are unrelated

[slim vapor]

Is that confirmed

[signal marlin]

yes

[slim vapor]

May they be guarding them for another reason tho

Or is there proof they're not

[signal marlin]

in terms of gameplay, the bossfight acts to guard wings but not in canon, the vessel is just in that area and gets reanimated

[slim vapor]

I see

[signal marlin]

for PK to put a vessel there would be wholly inconsistent

and really make no sense all together

[split compass]

there's not really any reason to think the vessel is there for a specific reason
vessels turn up all over the place, there were a lot of them

[slim vapor]

I still think that is not too inconsistent

[signal marlin]

it certainly is. he already has constructs specifically to protect things and PKs view on the vessels really wouldnt permit using them for anything aside from sealing the infection

however it really just comes down to not being supported by anything as well

[lusty plinth]

Void just loves killing

[slim vapor]

Yeah after disproving the infected crossroads being tied with the wings it kinda lost its point

[signal marlin]

even if those were connected and wings were for some reason vital, you would expect significantly more protection around them

[slim vapor]

Broken vessel is pretty hard to kill if you're a random infected bug so immagine in its prime

[signal marlin]

for the black egg - every layer of protecting it had several more layers of protection around them. this same depth isnt captured with just a single vessel

[signal marlin]

its currently equal or very compareable to its "prime"

ellina notes its likely BV used to be a skilled nail user and that it still has many of those abilities and that the infection has made it stronger - giving more strength and agility

[knotty imp]

Lowkey believed that the Broken Vessel met its end in the Ancient Basin somehow

As suggested by the hollow area he got on the top of its skull/mask

But then another question would remain, what killed it?

[signal marlin]

[knotty imp]

Alas, it will remain a mystery

So far seems like it is the only Vessel that doesn't have a clear death
Second if we include the Greenpath one

[split compass]

Hornet got 'em

it was one hell of a needle throw

[knotty imp]

Then just one

[lucid onyx]

he died to brooding mawlek

wait no

uhh

he died to mawlek

yuhhh

[knotty imp]

Most probably

[knotty imp]

How come we know so much about Herrah and Monomon, but we have so little information regarding Lurien?

What could have he been according to the information we have in game? A very rich bug? An influential, leading figure of the City of Tears while the Pale King was busy with his other matters? Or just a weird, excentric individual that won everything he got due to his loyalty to Hallownest and Pale King?

[ruby lotus]

read the wiki

[valid rapids]

The Watchers seemed to be an organization that monitors the city probs to stop crimes or smth like a police force. Lurien wasnt the only one

[rugged comet]

Dream Nail: City of Tears - Watcher's Spire - "...Cannot watch... Longer..."

...Cannot watch... Longer...

@mushspore used /dream-nail area: City of Tears name: Watcher's Spire - "...Cannot watch... Longer..."

[knotty imp]

Which would make sense why there are Watcher Knights, no?

[rugged comet]

Lore Tablet: City of Tears - Watcher’s Spire

Sleep beckons eternal and these words become my last.
Though my gaze shall no longer fall upon this city, I will act forever in its protection.
For King, for bug, for Hallownest, I head now to my rest.

@mushspore used /lore-tablets area: City of Tears name: Watcher’s Spire

[knotty imp]

They would need a guard

[valid rapids]

Also this has the vibes of like: his gaze was for protection? Idk

[valid rapids]

I mean the watcher knights couldve been private bodyguards but there were like a hundred of them

Maybe the WKs got deployed out the window to apprehend criminals

Or the watchers just had good communication with all the city's guards

[knotty imp]

Thank you for your help, it makes much more sense now and would also explain why Lurien is so rich

[fast pilot]

The Only Lore We Need Is Shaw

[floral mist]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-gitgud-silksong-hollowknight-gif-11555526335271834339

That aswell?

[past stirrup]

When is team cherry adding. DLC for poggy thorax?

[white fractal]

hi

[modern urchin]

Hi

[timber void]

I think the watchers were the ruling body of the city of tears

Like how in Pharloom ||the conductors were the governing body for the Citidel of Song||

Which would explain why Lurian was chosen as a dreamer, if he was essentially the mayor of the city, Herrah and Monomon also seem to be leaders in some regard to their respective territories

[fast salmon]

If I think too hard about the implications that a root, a spider, and a bug/worm are all able to produce viable offspring I think I might honestly have a heart attack and die

So I choose to believe that the wyrms malleable nature causes genetic bullshit to be possible

[noble frigate]

Where is the radiance body?

[pure inlet]

She doesn’t have one

If you mean like a physical body

She’s only in dreams

[noble frigate]

Ohhh

Thanks

[weak hazel]

So I just want a clarification for anyone who knows, but is Loam haunted? All the bugs found in the Underworks seem to be haunted as they mindlessly attack Hornet, but Loam is able to speak to us and seems normal (albeit obviously brainwashed). From my understanding he isn't haunted, and that's what makes it so tragic, even those who aren't directly under the control of GMS are still serving her through this exploitative religion.

[lusty plinth]

Yeah probably not, also #sk-lore

[valid rapids]

Ehhh... feels weird to say theres a ruling body thats not PK imo

Like the whole god-king is, a thing

[timber void]

To be fair the pale king wasn't around much, and its more comparable to kings and thanes

Kings rules the whole kingdom

While thanes ruled over individual cities under the order of the king

[valid rapids]

Ehh, we know he had a hand in administration since he opposed the soul sanctum and you had to go through him for a tram pass

[timber void]

All of those could still be done by the king, while stil leaving the generel ruling of the city to the watchers

[valid rapids]

As far as we know the watchers literally only watched. Nothing about lawmaking

[lusty plinth]

Conductors only conducted obviously it’s in the name

[valid rapids]

Except we're told they did more, unlike with watchers

[lusty plinth]

It’s not an unreasonable guess

Just watching over the city is kind of silly

[tranquil zenith]

||Probably a lukewarm take but i HATE that one of the god home endings is implied to be the cannon ending, I think dream no more should be the defacto ending and im sad it's not cuz it just wraps the story up nicer||

[hot lily]

this needs to be spoilered

[tranquil zenith]

Oops sorry

[hot lily]

it's also relevant to mention that ||SoTV is compatible with both of them and has enough ambiguity for either to work||

[timber void]

Im pretty sure the knight could eventually become shadelord after dream no more in some way. I dont feel its exclusive to godhome, im also not a big fan of the godhome endings being canon, way more on Dnm side

[tranquil zenith]

||The part that stumps me is that we see the ghost (the knight) as the void puddle which correct me if im wrong, dosen't that mean they're dead cuz when you defeat the collector they melt into that puddle we see Ghost do||

[timber void]

And the fact it only shows up for a moment makes me feel like it is possibe for the shades to become the shade lord, but Dnm should be considered canon

[timber void]

I think the void/shades of the knight and the hollow knight seeped back into the abyss. We see the shades going back there in the ending, so its not a stretch to think the same thing happened to the knight

[tranquil zenith]

We also see all the vessels in ||sister of the void|| and they all show up in dream no more so i don't think it's that far off

[timber void]

Exactly

[hot lily]

yeah as I said it's intentionally visually ambiguous

[timber void]

I think of the godhome endings as more of an AU, like with Hollow knight and sealed siblings. Dream no more (in my opinion) is the canon ending

[tranquil zenith]

I like to think of it as a what if

[timber void]

Yeah its the same thing

[tranquil zenith]

i think it more just hinted on what we'd see in silk song ||with the flower and the void overtaking hollow nest like how it did in pharloom (if that was even thought of at the time)||

[timber void]

Probably not

[loud crater]

Void never overtook Hallownest?

[tranquil zenith]

isn't it implied it does after embrace the void, like the way it lashes out after overtaking the god seeker?

[loud crater]

That’s just TK using GodSeeker as basically a door out of GodHome. TK has no reason to overtake Hallownest.

[tranquil zenith]

that makes more sense

[split compass]

that was probably the original premise of the Hornet DLC, before it evolved into Silksong

[lusty plinth]

Hype moments and aura

[candid basin]

who would win in a fight, the radiance or goku?/j

[golden fiber]

what do you think

[tranquil zenith]

Primal aspids solos

both

[candid basin]

im joking

obvious goku

[golden fiber]

nah primal aspid wins

[lusty plinth]

Can goku enter the dream realm

[candid basin]

I mean if goku "dreams" then he's cooked already imo

[torpid dagger]

Hi everyone

[winter marten]

Guys I think the Knight might be Hollow

[wanton zephyr]

It’s not

Correction, for the purpose of communicating with this channel:

TK is hollow, but not pure

[split compass]

I think you're right

[noble frigate]

Where is the pale kings actual body

[wheat warren]

In the Grave in Ash

/Cast off Shell

The other body is probably lost

[pure inlet]

His actual body is in the dream realm

He physically went there

[wanton zephyr]

It's the one the knight smacked the shit out of

[stray radish]

Radiance

[thorny moth]

Goku probably

[ashen tree]

Can goku get infected?

[fickle yarrow]

Chat in the pantheon godmaster ending of hollow knight

Who is Hornet facing

Ah the very end with the nail ? The hollow knight himself ?

[blazing badger]

Yes...

[lucid onyx]

yes\

[fickle yarrow]

How did she enter the black egg ?

With the knights intervention

[thorny moth]

She's outside it

[exotic mica]

i jst found smt insane about the lore

The knight is

Hollow

who would've known that

[fickle yarrow]

Turns out

The hollow knight… isnt the protagonist… it’s the final boss

What a subversion of expectations

[limber glacier]

No wya :O

[limber glacier]

We ddidnt know that :D

[karmic stream]

About that...

[exotic mica]

Aight vro

[raw snow]

What a rugpull

[agile bough]

Yeah...final

[raw snow]

Shh

[frigid kayak]

basically, the hk is freed n just walks out, hornet just happens to be right outside the temple when he leaves. its not really explained how he popped the chains binding him while missing an arm but🤷🏾‍♂️some suspension of disbelief is necessary with this game fs

[fickle yarrow]

Mmmhhh

So I assume in silksong , assuming this is the canon ending , she defeated him ?

[frigid kayak]

so since all the endings are canon, honestly i really don’t know💀like it’s implied she was ready for a fight, but if the hk is no longer under the influence of the radiance, they should have some semblance of self/be able to communicate since the only reason the radiance was able to corrupt him was because he wasn’t truly “hollow”(i.e devoid of emotions and will) so tht may mean instead of being immediately hostile, he’d try to understand what happened to him and how he was able to break free since all the dreamers under the radiance seem to know they’re trapped(even if only instinctively for lesser bugs) and it’s not really clear how long the knight was imprisoned either too. i like to think of it like how Fry from “Futurama” had a major cultural shock when he woke up from cryo-sleep and was more focused of figuring out what all has changed before doing anything else

not to spoil too much silksong, ||but it is confirmed the vessel does ascend to godhood as the shade lord and “he”(he is in quotes since i don’t think any of the vessels have a specific gender) aids hornet when she’s fighting GMS, so assuming the godhome ending is the true canonical ending, or basically any ending that deals with defeating the radiance entirely, then it’s possible the hollow knight may have just left hollownest since they are part pale being and should be able to retain their mind even outside of hollownest’s influence or hornet may have crossed nails with them and killed them on the spot(very in character for her, her desire for a fade is CRAZY💀) but honestly i’d love to see a dlc or a whole new game just dedicated to fleshing out the hk’s story while living in hollownest and what became of them after the events of the game||

[timber void]

I think personally it shows the shade lord to show it could be a possibility in the future, but i have no doubt in my mind Dream no More is the canon ending. It just makes the most sense narrativly. I see the godhome, and the hollow knight endings as AUs.

[timber void]

I also dont think the knight is as free as you think it is. It most likely stays in the abyss along with all the other siblings

[frigid kayak]

honestly same, i just like to keep an open mind when discussing possibilities and “what if’s” since so much is left up to being deciphered independently

[frigid kayak]

i can def see that

[wanton zephyr]

So ok
First up, the knight got amnesia from stepping out of hallownest so I don’t think there’s any reason to assume the hollow knight would keep its memories

Secondly, idk if you were, instead, referring to the “mind” PK grants his citizens cuz I’m pretty sure the vessels wasn’t granted a mind by his beacon and thus, yes, will keep their sentience outside of hallownest

Thirdly, I have my doubts Hornet is the type to just kill bugs who aren’t hostile to her. And as things stand, THK, in the Godhome endings, isn’t infected. So idk if it would have any reason to fight her so she would have to kill it.

Is it even a reasonable assumption that vessels are part pale being? Cuz only their shell are pale, unlike Hornet who still have flesh and blood

[fickle yarrow]

How can dream no more and the normal ending coexist

That doesn’t make any sense

They are literally contradictory

[remote bramble]

Well THK wouldn't have to figure out what has changed since it already knows via world sense

[frigid kayak]

so the vessel gets kind of a double does of purification, once when it was thrown into the abyss and another when it ventures into the wilderness making it truly pure and devoid of everything it once was or could’ve been. hk only gets the abyss cleanse and is sullied by spending time with/being raised by the PK so it has a sense of self which means it has memories it treasures. idk if it’d work kind of similarly to how quirrel was able to maintain his mind outside hallownest but i believe something similar would be possible for the hk considering it’s been trapped in its own mind for so long like it’d be able to hold itself together regardless of proximity to hallownest.

second, yeah i was referring to the mind💀

third, listen usually i’d give our girl the benefit of the doubt, but she’s seen a lot of shit and knows who the HK is, might’ve even met them before they were imprisoned, and she was quick to try to kill the vessel based solely on what he is and where he came from the second they encountered one another. like rationally speaking, with every other major boss being slain, they are like the most powerful ppl in hallownest by the end of the game and as hallownest self proclaimed defender, i can see her making the unilateral decision to kill him before he truly loses whatever bit of his mind is left

[frigid kayak]

i think regardless of what they’ve been through, they were born through the merger of 2 great pale beings(TPK and TWL) so biologically speaking, they have all the makings of pale beings themselves i think

[frigid kayak]

imma give tht the marvel answer special, “NEW TIMELINE”💀🤣

[wanton zephyr]

Again, vessels minds are not granted by the pale king. There’s no reason for them to lose sentience (or, mind, as people call it) when they left hallownest

Hornet was only trying to kill the knight because she knew it was instinctively trying to usurp THK’s place in the temple and she cannot risk that happening before she really knew it was up for the task. It was a test, to show her it was stronger than her

Now that the infection is gone and there’s practically no threat, she wouldnt just use the policy of fight first ask later with THK, especially if it’s not hostile

[dapper jewel]

is hornet and the knight related

or nah

[wanton zephyr]

They are half siblings

Same father, different mothers

[dapper jewel]

ohh alr thanks

[frigid kayak]

thts true, my b i misunderstood what you were saying🙏🏾

very true, it is a test but when we find her she is standing over the corpse of another vessel tht made its way up from the abyss, n i assumed she had fought it and subsequently killed it since obvi it wasn’t stronger than her. but our vessel still doesn’t know what it’s doing or why it was drawn to the call yet by their first meeting. we do as the player, but from the vessels perspective, a bug that looks oddly similar to it is standing over another dead bug, thats basically its sibling, and the vessel is just fighting to stay alive with no knowledge or memory as to what’s happened to make this random warrior so violent with it.

n idk, i don’t see hornet as vicious by any means but in the first couple of interactions with her, it’s clear she’s willing to go pretty far if it means protecting the greater good and dealing with those who’d harm others, both really noble traits fs n for lack of a better way of putting it, thk was a failure and had more than just a bit of the radiance influence inside it, like if all the infected bugs are like weightlifting pros and the weights are how much infection they have, the hollow knight would basically be Atlas holding the world on his shoulders. like the strain would be crazy, n i think her reaction when he emerges is her being wary that even if the radiance is gone, it might’ve drove him to madness before it left his mind. but again, i don’t see her killing w/o reason either so its purely conjecture on my part

[fickle yarrow]

Yeah so our silksong

It has to follow one canonical ending right ?

I assume it is dream no more or embrace the void

But leaning dream no more

[hot lily]

it can't follow THK or DF

[fickle yarrow]

?

[frigid kayak]

i believe tht both are true. like with multiple endings, some are just a straight up conclusion of the story. like THK and SS endings are a definite conclusion to the vessels journey which makes the events of silksong completely stand alone.
whereas DNM and ETV endings are a continuation into silksong tying the 2 stories together into one giant novel

[wanton zephyr]

Did you mean sealed sibling..?

Cuz delicate flower only cut Shade Lord off from hallownest, not that it destroyed it completely

[hot lily]

We don't know exactly what the flower did

[frigid kayak]

actually thts also a little confusing too now that i think about it, cause the shade lord is like shade given focus and form right? so the tendrils shouldn’t lash out like they do when they burst from the goddseaker, they should be calm like how they are when the vessel gains the void heart or when it’s exposed to light

[wanton zephyr]

So we can’t say it destroyed or didnt destroy Shade Lord either

Ambiguous ending

[hot lily]

which is why it's not necessarily compatible

[wanton zephyr]

And not necessarily a definite “silksong can’t follow from it”

And not including sealed siblings in the “can’t follow into silksong” is extrapolating the ending

[frigid kayak]

so ig the answer is tht it’s supposed to be a little confusing and contradictory since they deal with a different set of actions leading up to their respective conclusions

[fickle yarrow]

I don’t know the acronym well

[wanton zephyr]

We don’t know what happened after that either

[fickle yarrow]

Could you sleep them

[wanton zephyr]

The hollow knight
Sealed sibling
Dream no more
Embrace the void

[frigid kayak]

^^^

[hot lily]

SeSi may still work because seal breaking bugs exist

[wanton zephyr]

A number of assumptions need to be made for that, too

[hot lily]

so?

[turbid sandal]

wait so like the knight MERGED with shade lord he the knight IS the shade lord

[frigid kayak]

both

[turbid sandal]

so first?

because technically if both is true the merging would happen when he wasn't shade lord, and so he is shade lord RIGHT NOW

[frigid kayak]

think of the shade lord as a combination of every shade in the game, the knight assimilated into the hive as the head honcho but is still apart of the hive so yes to both

[wanton zephyr]

So saying sealed siblings can lead to Silksong because seal breaking bugs exist under the assumption of the possibility of them coming to hallownest is ok

While outright not considering the possibility of delicate flower not destroying the void completely and allowing TK to || still appear in Pharloom, even though it can’t do that in silksong either, at its full power, only repelling the void ||, is certainly a choice

[turbid sandal]

ok

so another thing

shade lord existed before

or AFTER the knight merged with the void

so like

if shade lord didn't appear before the knight, then technically the knight is actually shade lord and what makes shade lord shade lord

too many shade lord

pretty sure before the knight unified the void, there was already some civilization worshipped it

implying that void was an entity or something controlled it

so this time it's just the knight controlling it/unifying it/becoming void lord

right?

[hot lily]

incorrect

Bardoon states that the Knight, as the Lord of Shades, is "a strength before unseen"

[frigid kayak]

the existence of one who wields the void heart and can bring all shades/void underneath its will in a unified mind has probably happened before the knight made that happen in game. you can find remnants of void beings like the abyss creature and ancient bug copses tht have ties to the void predating hallownest and many other civilizations. i think you’re probably right, tht there were other lords of shade, but i think the level of attunement is the main key here. the knight gets to tht level either by slaying the radiance in the dreamrealm or by conquering every other “god” or god-like being in hallownest eventually becoming the one who stands above all. i doubt any other pre-existing vs would have made it to the same lvl and actually be the one to unify all the void underneath it. like they may have had a lot of control over void, but to rule over it and have complete mastery over it had never been witnessed like how the knight made it happen

[hot lily]

you did not read this

[frigid kayak]

i did not🫡😭💀was mid type my b

[turbid sandal]

hmm

so

shade lord did NOT existed before the knight, and the knight is the one who became shade lord after uniting with the void

[hot lily]

yes

[frigid kayak]

i get the confusion tho. in other literature n media i’ve seen, there are theories tht some gods come into existence by ppl just putting complete faith in something, kind of like if Thor was born by word of mouth and belief tht the thunder was caused by him and not by a union between Odin and Jord. like imagine if slender man became real because so many ppl believed he was real, sort of how some higher beings gain more or less power based on their followers(i.e the radiance and the moth tribe n unn and the green children)

so like if there was a pre-existing belief tht there had to be one to rule over the void, even if they didn’t know its name or what form it took, they(referring to the ancient bugs who worshiped the void) might’ve manifested something akin to a god/higher being tht commanded the void but it was still wild and terrifying since there was no focus alongside it. just a untamed mass of a darkness that swallows everything and anything with no discernment or purpose

[signal marlin]

radiances power isnt affected by "followers" and the AC didnt do that - even if they did it likely wouldnt result in anything

[grave eagle]

That's not possible as the radiance would've died when all the moths forgot her

[covert brook]

Why did the pale king make the collector (there is a part in white palace where there is a mould very similar to the collector and the collector is made out of void) but why would he want to trap the grubs around the kingdom

[frigid kayak]

most forgot/chose not to remember but the seer remembered which would imply other older moths remembering before they passed on. im not saying they’re the same principles either, its a point of comparison to justify where Tony was coming from from their line of questioning

[remote bramble]

The collector is likely a defective kingsmould who absorbed the mind of the original owner of the tower of love

[pulsar forum]

Most likely a rogue kingsmould

[frigid kayak]

im pretty sure the moths choosing to follow the PK def affected her influence in the material world, it made its come back forcibly instead of being invited and welcomed in which caused the infection. i don’t think the radiance consciously made the infection, I think its anger at being tossed aside manifested as a disease. it really could’ve manifested as anything as i don’t think there was any clear direction beside the desire for revenge and reclaiming its lost power

[covert brook]

Ahh but then why did he want to trap the grubs

Was he like scared of the grubs or did he just have an unhealthy obsession

[frigid kayak]

maybe just playing into the name? a lot of the dream nail dialogue is really fucking creepy and child abductor coded homie bro might just be what a irl Pokémon master would be like

[covert brook]

Damn wtf so pretty much the collector is the hk equivalent of a pred

[hot lily]

...what? this is really dumb to suggest

[pulsar forum]

More like a bugnapper

[covert brook]

Yea makes sense

[frigid kayak]

and just to add a little context to the comparison i made to other mythos, in this theory, gods can’t “die”, they can only be forgotten and fade away into nothingness. so long as at least a single being in existence can remember or pays reverence to them, they will continue to exist albeit in a weakened state. idk if you’ve seen the animated movie “Rise of the Guardians”, but in it, the main antagonist uses fear to overwrite the belief children have in certain holiday characters (i.e Santa, the Easter bunny, etc) and when fewer children believe in them, the weaker they became in the movie. thts basically the comparison im making and again very loosely as just an example to better understand where Tony’s line of questions were stemming from

[frigid kayak]

unfortunately yeah💀 in my head at least

[frigid kayak]

🤷🏾‍♂️i mean, the grubs are children soooo

[mighty dove]

What are we on about rn

[frigid kayak]

or wait did you mean playing into the name? cause tht was more fo comedic relief i don’t think it just named itself tht n started collecting bugs lmao

[frigid kayak]

honestly i’ve been lost the plot

[mighty dove]

You have lmfao

[frigid kayak]

💀i think my main point was just trying to better flesh out what @turbid sandal was asking earlier and just exploring different ways of thinking ab stuff. i don’t believe anything i say to be law by any means, there are so many more knowledgable ppl in the chat n i really enjoy listening to everything🙏🏾no one i know really plays HK so being able to talk n fanboy over it is awesome

plus im tryna get to 300+ msgs so i can send memes🫠

[mighty dove]

😭

[trim heart]

j

bonjour

[fickle yarrow]

Ok thx

No way in hell sealed sibling is ever canon to silksong thats like the bed dumb ending

I don’t see how the hollow knight is canon because, the knight isnt pure is he ?

Otherwise there would be the infection in pharloom

[frigid kayak]

by “knight” do you mean THK or the vessel/knight

[pulsar forum]

Vessel probably

[frigid kayak]

ok gotcha

[pulsar forum]

Also SOTV confirmed that sealed siblings/THK endings rnt cannon and that its either dream no more or embrace the void

[fickle yarrow]

The knight as in our character

He isn’t pure

He couldn’t contain the infection forever could he ?

[frigid kayak]

so the vessel is pure. thts why the white lady gives him half of the kings soul charm. basically, she wants the vessel to take THK’s place as a seal for the radiance, but hornet and a few other denizens of hollownest vie for another way which would end the radiance once and for all instead of another seal that could be broken in time. i personally don’t think the vessel would ever falter tho, i don’t think there’s any emotional thought behind any of its actions. it moves forward because it must, not driven by so sense of duty or curiosity(although tht cute little face begs to differ lmao) it just moves forward cause thts all it knows how to do

[fickle yarrow]

Yeah that make sense I don’t think the knight could contain the infection forever either

Otherwise we would have felt the radiance Influence in pharloom

[frigid kayak]

exactly, i think the PK’s plan was just flawed from the beginning

there was no containing the radiance, the only true way they were gonna be free was if they took the fight there

[candid basin]

theory that I think is widely accepted:

the vessels ARE mainly emotionless/will-less (some more than others) but the way they make decisions is like an ai or just entirely based on instinct and logical reasoning

[frigid kayak]

which opens up the question, if TPK had the power while in his most weakened to transmigrate an entire citadel across dimensions, and into the dream realm, why didn’t he take the fight to the radiance himself?

[signal marlin]

this really isnt the same as the original claim

[frigid kayak]

💀how so

i kno i do be rambling so the plot getting lost is no surprise to me

[candid basin]

yall really using the skull emoji in the grand 26 bro 💔

[frigid kayak]

🙂‍↕️yeah my age do be showing lmao

but i lived in Houston for awhile n out there we say “im dead” a lot so its just a old habit

[candid basin]

we still say that

but we left the skull back in 24

[frigid kayak]

NO ONE TOLD ME

[candid basin]

anyway back to lore

what insect is grimm?

like is he a moth (makes sense because he's then related to dreams)

[frigid kayak]

so, i know there’s a lot of references to “beast” thoughtout the story, so i just assumed he was some bug-bat hybrid

[candid basin]

like we need to see more moths in the DLC please

moths are so cool but so slept on for no reason

[frigid kayak]

straight facts, n if he’s a type of moth it’d make his connection to the nightmare make a lot of sense

[candid basin]

we also know fuckall about grimm

and the nightmare troupe

other than the fact they have crazy aura

[frigid kayak]

nah fr, bro hits the cleanest bow of all time

piccolo could never

but if he is a type of moth, if memory serves me right, there’s a kind of moth/butterfly that instead of drinking nectar drinks blood from dead/dying animals

[signal marlin]

its first stated as:
"some higher beings gain more or less power based on their followers(i.e the radiance and the moth tribe)"

when that idea is rejected, it becomes
"im pretty sure the moths choosing to follow the PK def affected her influence in the material world"

however power and influence are distinct

[frigid kayak]

wait im confused, its like im wording the same thing just differently ??

[candid basin]

anyone know why the pale king didnt try to kill the weakened radiance himself

[signal marlin]

no, its a fundamentally different claim - between power and influence. if you originally meant influence, then it works

[candid basin]

like if he lost all of his believers

why didnt he just slime the radiance

[frigid kayak]

cause the first part im saying how higher beings are all vying for more influence since thts in their nature and the latter part is reiterating that the lack of that is the main reason for the radiance’s discourse with everything and everybody

[frigid kayak]

i did mix the words up tho i see what you mean, in this instance im using “power” and “influence” as synonyms, since when one has more power their influence grows and with more influence your power becomes more tangible instead of theoretical

[frigid kayak]

YO I JUST SAID THT TOO CAUSE IDFK

[frigid kayak]

^^^^

[signal marlin]

radiance wasnt weakened and he couldnt

[frigid kayak]

i think he’s referring to the implied initial infection that took place before the events of the game since there was a time of “peace” when the seal was initially put into place

[candid basin]

yes the seals

and the fact he lost followers

prime time to slime the radiance

[signal marlin]

this isnt really related

[frigid kayak]

yeah my b jumped the gun there should’ve let brodie finish

[candid basin]

btw the pale king IS a higher being

he probably had a better chance than the knight

[signal marlin]

none of that changes PKs capacity to kill radiance

[candid basin]

because the knight isnt really hollow either

[candid basin]

wait im sorry

how weak is the radiance by the time the knight comes to fight it

[frigid kayak]

oh he’s not weak at all

[signal marlin]

radiance is never weakened

[frigid kayak]

by tht time the 2nd infection has already toppled hallownest

[candid basin]

so

who is stronger

prime knight (non void lord)

or

pale king prime

[frigid kayak]

this is wht they meant when i used “power” and “influence” incorrectly. radiance never lost all its power, it just lost some of it’s ability to have any affect on the material plane

[signal marlin]

depends what u mean by stronger

[candid basin]

well Im talking about ability to fight whatever comes to kill it

oh wait

the void

the knight has power of the void

so it can win

[frigid kayak]

the knight can, however TPK only experimented with the void, it never mastered it. the best he could do was sacrifice his children to potentially become comparable with it

he himself is a being of light, just like the radiance. light can’t cancel out light

[candid basin]

the void also killed TPK im pretty sure

[frigid kayak]

👀👀👀explain

thts an interesting thought

[candid basin]

well If you observe what hapened inside of tpk's main palace room

you'll see void "particle" all around

it appeared the entire place darkened

[frigid kayak]

right

[signal marlin]

thats not possible

[candid basin]

we can also see this in the ancient basin

[candid basin]

he was also experimenting with the void

[signal marlin]

when did PK become TPK...

[candid basin]

its absolutely possible the void slimed tpk while he was trying to fuck with it

[candid basin]

The Pale King

[frigid kayak]

i mean he is a king, gotta give the full title🙇🏿‍♂️

[signal marlin]

that doesnt matter - PK is immensely bright and would suppress the small amount of void

[candid basin]

bro he was surrounded by the shit

we have rooms of him using it to make like vessels and stuff

[signal marlin]

beyond that, there is no characteristics on him that are analogous to other creatures that died to void

[candid basin]

its very likely he messed up and got killed

[candid basin]

well you were right on the fact he is bright

so its possible he was able to withstand some of the effects

[frigid kayak]

i see what you mean, n it would kind of explain why his corpse just vanished after visiting the throne room, but idk i’d need more data

cause like, all the soldiers he made are bound with void

[signal marlin]

no its just simply not possible

[candid basin]

its still likely

[frigid kayak]

so like , he had some resistance to it and some control over it

[candid basin]

he was also RIGHT ABOVE THE VOID

[frigid kayak]

but the light house

he knew how to fight the void

how to force it to be calm

[candid basin]

not enough Im pretty sure

the void has a strong tendency to infect as shown in silksong

so its definitely a plausible theory

besides

what else couldve killed him

old age?

thats boring

[signal marlin]

grief/suicide

[candid basin]

so he went through insane effort of preserving the place in the dreamscape

just to kill himself

[frigid kayak]

i think this theory would make more sense if there was some proof of like prolonged exposure to void like infecting you similar to the infection or even the lifeblood/plasmium does in both games, but the void is kind of all or nothing. it consumes you or it obeys you, the only in between being putting a collar on it but it’s still snapping at everything like a wild dog

[signal marlin]

insane effort is overstating, as we dont know how much effort it took him, however yes

[blissful crest]

no it doesn’t

[signal marlin]

those arent problematic either

[candid basin]

ok this is likely false because I dont know enough about silksong for this

[blissful crest]

|| the only reason the void worked like that in Silksong is because GMS was actively resisting it and it was effectively repeatedly consuming and mimicking the threads/haunting|| silksong spoilers (heavy)

[signal marlin]

joker...

[candid basin]

but I know enough about hk for this

I feel like its definitely a plausible thing for the void to have killed the pale king

[signal marlin]

its really not

[blissful crest]

it’s not

[frigid kayak]

i honestly don’t know, i get where you’re coming from tho

[blissful crest]

his natural glow wouldn’t make that possible

[candid basin]

well its very possible it was weakened over time

[frigid kayak]

so, not much is given on how old pk is but he had already lived an entire however the fuck long life as a wyrm predating the establishment of hallownest. one of his his main mission, like all other wyrm’s, was to find a way to stay alive basically forever. i think he just died naturally of old age

[candid basin]

yeah tbh these theories are a little too theoretical because we know basically jackshit about the pale king

[candid basin]

maybe

[signal marlin]

nothing suggests that

[candid basin]

other than the void particles, darkened rooms, and the killed knights darkened with void

[signal marlin]

its only maintained from several characters that he was very bright

[frigid kayak]

nah cause i do see where you’re coming from with tht part, cause if the castle is in the dreamrealm and there’s void present despite him being a pale being thtd make me wonder too

[candid basin]

thats why I think its the void

[frigid kayak]

but I think the void was always present, it just took a stronger hold once his light went out

like he was the only thing keeping all the void abominations he made in check

[candid basin]

also when was the pale king killed?

[blissful crest]

You can’t assert something like that as a possibility

[candid basin]

we can assert anything as a possibility

because we dont know shit about the pale king

or enough bout the pale king

[frigid kayak]

idk my g, the timeline of events is the murkiest thing in the story

[blissful crest]

arguing from ignorance is a logical fallacy

[candid basin]

shit

no gifs?

[signal marlin]

this is after hes dead which isnt relevant

[blissful crest]

no embeds

[valid rapids]

We know he was so bright it hurt to look at him and that a simple lighthouse can subdue a sea of void

[blissful crest]

get your perms up jit

[frigid kayak]

as far as we know, there’s no official calendar they go by, which makes sense if they’re all underground they’ve never seen a solar/lunar cycle

[candid basin]

well subdue for how long and how well

[signal marlin]

forever

[candid basin]

its very possible it could've failed or weakened over time

[signal marlin]

and very well, as seen in game

[valid rapids]

Its very possible it didnt

Because even after all that time it works as intended when tk turns it on

[signal marlin]

it isnt very possible again, nothing indicates that

[blissful crest]

the lighthouse doesn’t wane ingame when we turn it on and the only reason it was turned off was because the dude turned it off himself

[candid basin]

any way Im jus saying its possible not that its true

[valid rapids]

Bro's favorite words are "its very possible" 🥀

[blissful crest]

and “how well” it restrains an entire sea of void

[valid rapids]

Something something occams razor

[candid basin]

im saying its not impossible

[candid basin]

the simplest explanation is usally the one thats true

[valid rapids]

If ur having to make a ton of contrived "well maybe x happened" then like

Ur reaching

[frigid kayak]

which is valid, again, there’s just too much unknown ab him

[blissful crest]

again you’re just asserting stuff without evidence and lampshading it as a viable possibility cuz “we dunno”

which again

fallacy

[signal marlin]

🐊 ts isnt occams razor...

[frigid kayak]

imma have to borrow this word for the lexicon, “fallacy” kind of smacks

[candid basin]

the pale king died via one of his buzz saws

a terrible accident happened while he was trying to test his buzz saws and he got slimed on the spot

[frigid kayak]

yo but how funny would it be if they named it “the path of pain” after he sd trying to clear it

[signal marlin]

confuzz

[valid rapids]

[candid basin]

well that why its just a theory

[signal marlin]

what

[valid rapids]

NO!!!!!!

Theories have evidence

[candid basin]

I gave enough evidence imo

[hot lily]

what's the "theory"

[signal marlin]

nothing good

[candid basin]

void killed tpk

[hot lily]

it absolutely did not

[signal marlin]

serrara gets it

[candid basin]

look im not gonna argue against like 5 guys who think im completely wrong

you win

[hot lily]

...

[signal marlin]

[blissful crest]

burgers and fries

[frigid kayak]

but back to the point, personally, i think he always knew he was working with borrowed time. condensing his form may have given him a new life but it’s possible the new shell just wasn’t strong enough to withstand the full might of basically a elder god and it was never intended to be used for too long. i think throughout all the prelude to the events of the game, he getting increasingly more desperate because he knows he’ll die someday, since he had foresight he prob just kept seeing nothing change no matter what he did and he just eventually ran out of time.

[candid basin]

what theres no point

[candid basin]

btw we know jackSHIT about foresight

initially I thought it was just a metaphor for tpk's intelligence and ability to prepare

but then it turns out its compeltely real?

[frigid kayak]

nah bro sees the future

think of every time they say “foresight” as like micro omniscience, he was like
all knowing/all seeing adjacent

because there’s a limit to it, it’s not full omniscience

[candid basin]

well his empire was doomed from the start

there was literally basically nothing he could've done

other than maybe kidnap 10 more bugs and seal them as dreamers

[frigid kayak]

tbh i see all his efforts as trying to delay or fight against what he already knew was coming

there’s also the fact tht the future can change, if he knew all that would happen, he’d have known tht eventually a savior would come but since the future isn’t set in stone, he had to keep trying a lot of things

[candid basin]

wait yeah

what are the criteria

for becoming a dreamer?

like just get 10 more random bugs with decent intelligence

forcibly seal them

[frigid kayak]

honestly? idk if there was one, he just made the unilateral decision and asked monomon, herrah, and lurien to fill the roles

[candid basin]

I mean im not sure it requires consent

[frigid kayak]

they were all well respected, intelligent, strong willed and just strong in general, so idk why he didn’t find more

[candid basin]

hornet became a dreamer by pure accident

[frigid kayak]

shit you’re right

this may sound stupid, but maybe it’s a power level thing?

[candid basin]

possibly

[frigid kayak]

cause if not for the vessel returning, hornet would most likely be one of if not the strongest bug in hallownest

[candid basin]

I mean all of them were impressive in some way

like being leaders or just geniuses

[frigid kayak]

exactly

ig there’s being powerful in some aspect and being asleep

cause idk how well sealing hornet would’ve worked if she hadn’t been unconscious

[frigid kayak]

speaking of the dreamers, was lurien already asleep when the soul sanctum started experimenting on folks or was he just watching doing nothing while lives were snuffed out to further the study of soul😬

[candid basin]

im assuming he focused on other shit

last I remember the soul sanctum was pretty slick when it came to cover ups

[frigid kayak]

yikes

not too surprised tho, any place that calls itself the greatest is usually the worst

[regal barn]

Could Lemm actually eat ten egg?

[frigid kayak]

huh

[lucid onyx]

How do I become the pale king

[ashen tree]

You don't

[frigid kayak]

you can’t, but when you acquire the kings brand technically you’re recognized as a “king”. purely in name only, it basically just gives you access to different areas

[open reef]

Throw all your children into a bottomless pit

[frigid kayak]

just tried it…results may vary

[indigo venture]

Make sure to grab one of the stillborn fetuses as your Hollow Knight

[near sequoia]

You need to rule your eternal kingdom flawlessly and usher in an era of prosperity for all

[indigo venture]

How though

[near sequoia]

Being a genius dragon is a good start

[frigid kayak]

you sure? it only dropped 2 geo

[turbid sandal]

what about the kingsmould who was given the role of managing the lighthouse to keep the light on or the void wont go rogue, but apparently he got mindbroke or smth and turned the lighthouse off and it did smth

i dont remember

[indigo venture]

It wasn't a kingsmould, just a royal servant

[turbid sandal]

oh yea

i frogot

(:

[lucid onyx]

No how do I kill my chilren

[tacit ocean]

Rlly just watch mossbag if u want to know anything about HK lore/story

[lusty plinth]

That’s not a kingsmould

Also leaving a kingsmould in the abyss would be a horrible idea surely

[hot lily]

I misread the original sentence, sorry

[indigo venture]

Probably the best out there, still flawed though

Make sure to check out the video where he correct mistakes made, as well as pinned comments

No lore video is perfect, so don't take any as gospel

[turbid sandal]

MISINPUT

i meant the royal servant who was laying there the whole time

when you dream nail the mf it said smth like he succumbed to the voices inside his head

so like bro folded under void pressure

[lusty plinth]

I was talking to rrara dw

[turbid sandal]

ah ok

kingsmould lore is lowk awesome like some rando kingsmould just escaped the matrix and started kidnapping lil kids

[pure inlet]

One PK misstep

[nocturne ingot]

Guys

[torpid dagger]

hi

[nocturne ingot]

I was playing abs rad when I realized how when you climb up to her multiple times during the fight, is parnell to how the knight climbs out of the abyss

[wheat warren]

For me that section reminds me of Badeline

But I can see the resemblance too

[pure inlet]

Yeah it’s a parallel

Base game you’re ascending with your siblings compared to falling alone

But godhome you yourself are cemented as the most powerful

The climb is solitary and silent besides the ringing of resonance

Because once you beat Absrad they start focusing on you instead and power you up

[quartz sable]

What's the collecter lore?

[split compass]

most likely a Kingsmould that went crazy after it partially absorbed the mind (and maybe Soul) from another bug

namely the bug that holds the Love Key

[torpid dagger]

hi]

[primal agate]

Is ghost actually hollow?

[floral mist]

Yes

No brain

[calm fern]

I would assume so however in fairness in the absrad end cutscene where the ghost turns into his final form he does attack absrad for more viciously then the true ending so I would say yes but in his full form as hes the god of the void then yea as. Tldr- ghost complete hollow except maybe as the shadelord

[floral mist]

Oh, that type of hollow

[primal agate]

Then why would they save hornet?

[floral mist]

Cus they can

[calm fern]

Although that could be because every being in godhome is brought to their peak strength so thats most likely why the ghost can even change to the shade lord. Plus when fighting radiance or absrad . She comments if you manage to dreamnail her. She says ancient enemy and the light wknt be consumed

Wont

[primal agate]

Wellp

[vital hatch]

ghost being hollow or not i feel is up to interpretation
though i think narratively its better if they arent to prove the pale king was wrong

[calm fern]

Granted its nearly impossible but you can dreamnail her

[vital hatch]

apparently its also implied that they care about hornet since nosk takes her form in godhome

[calm fern]

Hmmmm. Technically when ghost falls back down to the abyss in the climb it looks as if ghost feels betrayed by the hollow knight not helping him and leaving him to fall back down to the ground

Although that might be that the pk is there and would consider the HK a failure if he helped the ghost

[split compass]

i say 'yes'
but i agree that DNM is the better ending - even if TK can hold Rad forever, it's better to kill her and become god of the Void rather than be a living cage for a zillion years

[calm fern]

Exactly. Now problem is in my opinion say you die in the fight with normal radiance technically lore wise the radiance has broken free as hornet broke the hollow knights mask and freed the radiance I mean I know gameplay wise that doesn't happen and your sent to the bench but still that raises interesting questions

[split compass]

well if TK dies then yes, eventually THK will break down completely and Radiance will be freed no matter what

[calm fern]

Yeah. Problem is most likely most to nearly everything down the well and beyond would become either completely infected or just completely caved in. I dont think the mantises are surviving that

[split compass]

WL does say that if Rad breaks free, all minds will succumb

Mantis know how to resist though - I guess it depends on if Rad being free makes her better at tempting people in their dreams

[vital hatch]

the radiance could also just straight up kill them if they resist

[calm fern]

Then that raises a question that makes sense but the mantis lords blocking one main entrance to deepnest arent infected yet inside deepnest their all infected and even if you come from the top of fungal core I highly doubt it'd spread that much especially because the spiders and the like in deepnest seem more like real life spiders that kill weaker or injured spiders and technically the infected seem to be 'injured' in a way

[vital hatch]

i dont recall any infection popping up in deepnest?

ahh

right

[split compass]

all the creatures are infected

except for that one Weaver

and Midwife

[calm fern]

Most of the enemies shoot glows of infection . Nose also shoots infection and killing basically anything except galien causes the normal infection death

[torpid dagger]

hi

[calm fern]

We see weaver totem? Statues? Things that gives abilities

[split compass]

considering what was going on in Pharloom, that might just have been a really bad idea

[vital hatch]

wait right nosk is literally right there

[calm fern]

Yeah his main attack is shooting a rng infection. And you can see the infection in its chest

I mean that makes sense because the final boss is there is near silk incarnate it makes sense weavers came from there

[split compass]

yeah, that's definitely what they did
I'm just saying that was probably a stupid move, considering what was going on there
||ie. the Citadel was capturing Weavers for GMS to eat||

[calm fern]

Thinking of it. How would weavers taste?

Like webs alone or

[split compass]

they got that patch that just went out, removed all mention of 'years'
I gotta see these dialogue tweaks

[vital hatch]

i was about to say yeah they were probably ||captured/killed on the way like hornet||

[calm fern]

Listen you brought up GMS eating weavers now im thinking how weavers taste

[split compass]

probably like spider-webs
I step into them sometimes when I'm out for walks (yuck)

[calm fern]

Yeah he did seem loyal to the king. But he could've been determined to try stop the infection in crossroads but died there and the bug took his armor

[split compass]

I like the timeline being nebulous
Hallownest fell before Elderbug's time, but guys like Dung Defender are still around

[vital hatch]

he’s just that goated

[calm fern]

Well ze'mer if lore serves me is also a great knight

But I haven't read up on my hk lore

[split compass]

yep
and it still means Elderbug is one of the younger characters
which is too good

[calm fern]

Well we meet her in the resting grounds. So technically until the flower quest is completed she's alive

And she can disappear after that damned flower quest

[split compass]

she sads herself out of existence

[calm fern]

Like I get it. The whole forbidden love story thing. Ze'mer loved the traitors daughter who was exiled with her father (pretty sure traitor lore is male in his journal entry) but blood hell why all the thorns

But bigger question how does she just choose to up and disappear like do the other knights have an ability like that

[split compass]

the power of sad

like how PK punched his own ticket through sheer grief

[calm fern]

I mean isma is part of a vine,tree like structure thing in her grove

So it must be some sort of ability that each knight has in their own way.

[vital hatch]

he might be stupid

[calm fern]

Yeah. You would think for a being with the able to see the future you'd see a massive moth basically burning your kingdom to the ground

[split compass]

so, this might be too sad but
after saying he was compelled to stay in the Waterways by his oaths...
DD disappears after making a statue of TK, and his final thoughts are about whether or not the legacy of the Great Knights can be passed on

[vital hatch]

i mean that is more or less what he saw

well not the burning part but the radiance and infection part

that is the entire reason the vessels and the hollow knight exist

[split compass]

we don't see DD vanish, but we never see him again after that last thought

[calm fern]

I mean burning to the ground as a figure of speech I mean radiance basically destroyed everything

[vital hatch]

it just so happens that the plan he made was flawed

[vital hatch]

yes i know

what i said still applies

[calm fern]

True true I mean the radiance is the sun

Big question why does he like buzzsaws and spikes and thorns. Surely they arent the easiest if they need to talk to the pk about something

Oh that makes a lot of sense

That's why the P.O.P exists

[vital hatch]

i never thought about that actually but thats

very true

i mean yeah he did sacrifice a bunch of his children but he didnt provoke the radiance or anything

[calm fern]

Yeah we only see the atrium and balcony and the entrance to the throne room and the very moment the HK gained some emotions in the P.O.P

[split compass]

and even then

like

freedom of religion, man

I'm sorry that your followers found a cooler god, but you could have handled it better

[calm fern]

Yeah after the PK appeared with free will everyone turned their backs on the radiance j mean the seer technically still worships the radiance though but she's also got free will so dunno how well that works

[split compass]

Seer says if you forget a dream you 'seal it away forever' and that's 'the only death that matters'
it doesn't necessarily sound like flat out destruction, but more a kind of 'fate worse than death' thing

[vital hatch]

basically yes

[calm fern]

And since the seer and other bugs still remember the radiance she cant actually die to an extent but she's definitely weaker most likely

[split compass]

the Dreamers banish TK into a 'sad, forgotten dream' and tell them to 'fade away'

[calm fern]

Yeah the only reason the knight gets out is because the seer gives it the dream nail. And hey if you built a species of bugs to worship you and then they turn their back on you wouldn't you be a little heated

[split compass]

does make me wonder
if she vanishes without bugs to dream of her
and she created the moths to dream of her
who was dreaming about her before the moths were created...?

well, that's what she is

but if she needs minds to exist in, who were those minds before she made the moths

[calm fern]

Hmmmmm that makes sense dreams,lights and technically a hive mind. While the pale king is the opposite despite releasing a 'light that gives the bugs freewill'

[vital hatch]

she couldve been a moth that ascended to godhood

[calm fern]

But its stated she created the moths

[vital hatch]

tho idk if that makes sense with moth lore im not as familiar with it

[calm fern]

Most moths we encounter speak about the radiance and the moths creation even the seer does in one of her dialogues

[vital hatch]

ahh alright

[calm fern]

Wait if the PK can see the future wouldn't he see that the knight becomes the shadelord or is that why he left the knight to fall back to the abyss to get him the void heart

[split compass]

i'm sure there are limits to how far he can see

otherwise he probably would've built Hallownest somewhere else to begin with

somewhere without a pissed off ancient moth goddess

would have saved everyone a lot of trouble

[calm fern]

Fair enough. And a lot of dead children. Because seriously as soon as the vessels were made they had to try and ascend if they fell welp you weren't worthy

Oh I thought he could see like actual full future but glimpses make sense. He probably had tunnel vision of making the HK a perfect vessel

Yeah. He said to be able to push the radiance back and give all the bugs free will but he had to go through a lot of loops to hold the radiance and even then he didnt make it absolutely perfect as he accidentally gave the HK emotions and gave the radiance a free path to corrupt

[split compass]

I like how foresight works in warhammer
where the Emperor doesn't just see the future, he sees every possible future - all the zillions of different outcomes
and he just sort've shoots for the one he wants and does his best to reach it

but sometimes you can see a future coming that you can't do anything about

like what that mushroom guy says

[calm fern]

Yeah but the mushroom is immortal and he is the lord and saviour

[split compass]

yeah, and then it all went to shit

[split compass]

not that mushroom, the other one

in the Fungal Core

'What good to foresee a doom unavoidable?'

elder I bet

[calm fern]

Probably elder

[split compass]

Mister Mushroom has gotta be their deity

[calm fern]

Mister mushroom can easily beat radiance and PK at the same time with no difficulty

[split compass]

the highest being

he's drawn that way in the endings, yeah

[calm fern]

Exactly when the tablet in kings pass says higher beings its meaning mister mushroom and I think mister mushroom has spirals

[split compass]

I do wonder if there's a connection - if those eyes are how they have the insight they do

yeah, I always knew he had to be more than just some crazy hobo - he knew too much lore

[calm fern]

Yeah as well he could be apart of the deal with the PK between him and herrah. That the mask maker atleast makes the design for the vessels masks

Oh yea but I thought the PK tossed them to the abyss to see if they were worthy then locked it with the kings brand

So that means it was a test of sorts

Yeah like betting your vessel to seal a corruption ravishing your kingdom by parkour wasn't smart

[split compass]

they were place in the Abyss as eggs to be infused with the Void and then had to climb out
PK presumably created many because there was no guarantee that any given egg was going to turn out a viable vessel

I think a lot of them probably just died and didn't even reanimate as vessels

[calm fern]

Still a stupid way of choosing the vessel to lock away the thing destroying your kingdom

[split compass]

there was probably more too it than just a physical trial, but it had to be at least that

[calm fern]

Yeah. As soon as the PK made that moment with the HK it caused the chain reaction

[split compass]

I believe in you, little Knight

your neglectful childhood is the key

[calm fern]

Hey sometimes in the HK universe parental neglect is character building

[uneven turret]

I have a theory that the knight is hollow 🤪

[lethal wren]

who is the guy in the beginning cutscene that has orange stuff coming out

[frigid kayak]

thts thk

[frigid kayak]

ive honestly always thought it was kind of a nod to how bugs operate in nature, its very few and far between tht a parental bug acts like a parent

[bright karma]

||works if you're a vessel (⁠・⁠∀⁠・⁠)||

[uneven turret]

The knight is a vessel

I was just acting dumb

Btw I’m about to fight pure vessel 😭

[bright karma]

Mb I replied to you accidentally instead of ben afleck 😭

[uneven turret]

Oh ok 🥲

[bright karma]

🥲🥲

[bright karma]

ATB, rn in white palace 🥲

[uneven turret]

Did you do path of pain

Or get the other half of the white charm

[bright karma]

Path of pain? Oh yeah I got the other half

[uneven turret]

You have never experienced torture

Wanna do it

It is just parkour

Except for the last part

[bright karma]

I got there halfway 🥲

[uneven turret]

Where are u exactly can u send me a pic

Of where you are

[bright karma]

I'll send in few minutes, afk rn

[uneven turret]

K

[wispy thistle]

question is Grimm a weaver ? he does hornets back crawl he even kinda looks a little like hornet also is the reaper crest a nod to Grimm because the attacks look like his

[loud crater]

He isn’t.

He’s made by the nightmare heart. He’s its vessel.

Not a spider.

[marble birch]

Grimm is a Deity/God/Higher Being’s vessel, in the form of a colony of Grimmchildren that fuse together into the ‘Troupe Master’ facade.