hk-lore

[near sequoia]

So yeah disregard them

[wanton zephyr]

So
The monarchfly stuff is also not canon

Since it’s from a manual or something

Outside of the game

[near sequoia]

Its not an official name sure

But we do see unique flies surrounding monarch wings

https://youtu.be/N9JYg28QweY?t=51

[wanton zephyr]

So they are wings mimicking weird insects around it that has no official name

[near sequoia]

Yes

I don't really see the issue with calling them that though

We also use file names like "Shade Lord" for convenience

[wanton zephyr]

Is that what VGFocus is referred to as

Or is it the knight after obtaining void heart

[near sequoia]

Yeah

[wanton zephyr]

So knight after void heart: lord of shades

VGFocus: Shade Lord

2 different things

[near sequoia]

Yeah

Which is confusing but its kinda what stuck

[wanton zephyr]

[novel current]

guys does the herald ending change the main ending

[split compass]

nah

it's just a little extra scene

a little treat

[indigo venture]

Wait Shade Lord came from files?

[near sequoia]

Yeah

[indigo venture]

I thought it was a fanon name or something

Can you show

Or tell me where to see it

[valid rapids]

Wait did it??

Im looking at the hk sprite repo assets and

[near sequoia]

idk if the file names are altered but it says shade lord right there

[valid rapids]

Theyre altered

[indigo venture]

Darn

[near sequoia]

Anyway that's what the wiki says

[valid rapids]

Radiance_GG_body0000 is the original name

[indigo venture]

I mean It's basically the same as Lord of Shades, but that's interesting

[indigo venture]

Oh

That's even more interesting

[valid rapids]

Maybe the cutscene code has the layers named shade lord?

Idk

[near sequoia]

Does GG stand for God of Gods or Good Game 🤔

[blissful crest]

its HK what do you think

[novel current]

if the pale king is a wyrm, why is he so small? wyrms are dragons with no limbs, and we have seen giant wyrm fossils, so why is the boi so babey

[indigo venture]

The original "Wyrm" Corpse is in Kingdom's Edge

Pale King shed it and adapted a more bug-like body to fit better amid his subjects

We can see the egg where he was reborn inside the carcass of the original skin, which is where King's Crest is adopted by The Knight

[novel current]

oh wow i didnt even know

WAIT IS THAT WHY THE COLLOSEUM IS CALLED THE COLLOSEUM OF FOOLS

[blissful crest]

no

[novel current]

aw :(

[split compass]

it's called the colosseum of fools because it's a colosseum full of fools

[indigo venture]

How is this related at all to what I said

[hot lily]

no it's not a wyrm

[frigid kayak]

i may be mistaken, but pretty sure the carcass the colosseum is made from is not a wyrm, at least not one as powerful as the pale king. it’s not confirmed what kind of bug it is but if i had to guess, i’d say it some variant of the ancient bugs that are found around hallownest as the colosseum’s king of fools is clearly trying to steal the pale kings steez

[hot lily]

it's an ancient bug

[frigid kayak]

thanks for clarifying 🙏

[frigid kayak]

as for the name, from what we can just tell from the given lore, bugs are almost driven into a bloodlust filed rage to fight till they die. dreamnail any of them n they’re only thinking ab hurting you. it’s not quite unlike how the wyrms have a innate power to draw bugs to them,
(“…Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall, till ages pass and kingdoms fall….”-Mister Mushroom)
it seems like there was a ancient bug of a similar type or species that had a more maddening effect on bugs. it’s possible the king made contact with its power and somehow bent it to his will or it bent him to its madness, honestly we don’t know(purely speculating at this point) hell, it could’ve straight up did the whole molt and rebirth thing. i personally don’t think so🤷‍♂️but overtime, it started to draw crowds since it’s weirdly ingrained in every society to gather around a good fight, we all lowkey love it lmao and with more bugs, came more structure and a symbiotic system was born. the bloodlust is never ending so the warriors never stop coming, and the bugs are forever entertained and give generously to the victors all while the ancient bug(possibly in the dream realm) feeds off the worship and carnage that’s created, kinda like a pseudo higher being

[late quarry]

While we r at the bug theme (ik whole hollow knight is abt bugs) can someone pls tell me what r those giant bugs we can meet for example when unlocking shadow dash?

[frigid kayak]

those are also ancient bugs

[late quarry]

Tho why do they like give away shadow dash

[frigid kayak]

so the ancients didn’t worship anything besides the abyss and the darkness, which is why they’re attuned the the shade side of power instead of soul

think of them as snail shamans but instead for the shade

[late quarry]

So like every single one of them worshiped shade so they learned everything connected to it?

[frigid kayak]

yeah, honestly they were metal af🙂‍↕️

[split compass]

there was an ancient civilization that once existed throughout Hallownest, and deep down in the Abyss - the bug holding the Shade Cloak was one of them
they created several relics with the Void - idols, the Cloak, the Sharp Shadow charm, etc.
they also created Soul Totems, so they had some mastery of Soul, but worshipped the Void

there are many large ancient bug remains in Hallownest, though not all of them were necessarily part of the ancient civilization - some might just have been big beasts

[frigid kayak]

n the voids nature is to consume completely so think of the upgraded versions of the spells as like a byproduct of what happens when soul is blended with void thts been mastered by a perfectly balanced vessel

[late quarry]

Thank u both guys

[frigid kayak]

of course! literally anytime honestly just love talking ab this game lmao

[split compass]

#lore feasts on lore questions

num num num

[fast salmon]

D’y’all think the pale king foresaw that the pure vessel would fail, but that the knight would have the potential to destroy the radiance within it?

[indigo venture]

Probably not

We dunno' how Foresight works

[fast salmon]

Fair

Who needs godly foresight when you can city plan to further your production of buzzsaws agenda

[split compass]

if PK could see that far, he probably would've just built Hallownest somewhere else to begin with

somewhere he wouldn't piss off a powerful moth god

would've saved everybody a lot of trouble

[glass swift]

i agree with this

[hot lily]

no, because VH is explicitly stated to be beyond both PK and WL's abilities (WL literally says it outright)

it's not just unpredictable it did something that neither of them knew was even possible

[knotty imp]

He could see glimpses, not the full future

In the end his plan did succeed but not in the way he expected it

Not on topic, but I wonder how the bridge on the other side of the big door we have to hit in the tutorial really looked like when Hallownest was at its peak

[deep schooner]

If abyss is just one big mass unserground wouldnt it be possible to get anywhere through the abyss?

And if yes, could the vessels make it to other kingdoms like pharloom

Land of storms

Steel city

I mean if those civilisations already discovered/opened the abyss

[half coyote]

Why did the Vessel Hornet kills in Greenpath have a MOTHwing cloak??

[split compass]

yes

vessels could be anywhere and everywhere

so everyone's vessel OCs can be canon

[half coyote]

I guess the correct term would be Shades not vessels then right??

[split compass]

Broken Vessel also seems to have one, there might just be a lot of them kicking around and Greenpo found one

[half coyote]

Why Moth wing cloak??

How they get??

[split compass]

eh, I like that some vessels may also have escaped intact, like the Knight
heck, maybe the reason the Knight arrives to Hallownest from out in the wastes is that they first popped up in some other kingdom
had a whole other epic adventure

[split compass]

I dunno. It's a cloak 'threaded with mothwing strands'
maybe the moths made a whole bunch and sold them off in the distant past

[half coyote]

Did some of the Moths know about the vessels to some degree?? Gifting the cloaks perhaps to pk??

[deep schooner]

Was the abyss shut off when the hollow knight escaped, or wasit kept open for more after that?

[forest hawk]

Most likely they stopped the hollow birthing when it happened

[deep schooner]

So then theoretically if TK escaped abyss after it got closed, does that mean other vessels could've escaped into other kingdoms

[worldly sun]

it was probably sealed before and the knight found some other way like how the other vessels escaped

[torn axle]

Chances are impossibly low

[deep schooner]

Well broken vessel did

And the one you get motheing cloak from

[torn axle]

Not to other kingdoms

[deep schooner]

Well they could

Since abyss spreads across the entire world

[torn axle]

There are almost 15 vessels outside of abyss that we can see

[torn axle]

Even if they could escape to other kingdoms that have not fell to ruin they would be seen as anomalys cuz of their biology and what they are

[deep schooner]

Yeah ig

But nobody really questions other people in this universe

Cause people travel through the wastes all the time

So it wouldnt really be that crazy for other bufs to see the vessels, as they wouldnt even know what they were

Or their purpose

[indigo venture]

Other vessels seemingly arent as strong as TK is

Theyd probably just die in the wastelands, if any other than TK even got there

[deep schooner]

Well if tk can defeat them then yes, tknis stronger

[nova egret]

Theory: The void within each vessel is fully hollow, but the pale king removed that when he gave them masks/clothing

[indigo venture]

What Masks?

Plus we see the Vessels are just "Birthed" with cloaks on in the Birthplace memory

[timber void]

They were born with their masks and cape(which is more like an elytra) apposed to someone like Hornet who wears a cloak thats not physically part of her body

[willow hazel]

my only modification to this would be that as johnathan said, they were born with the masks and cape, and i personally like to think the cape comes from white lady's genetics. but maybe it is the soul within the vessel that stops it from being hollow

since it's a pale being technically

[blissful crest]

vessels don’t wear masks unless explicitly noted to

[valid rapids]

The greater mind once dreamed of leaf and cast these caverns so. In every bush and every vine the mind of Unn reveals itself to us.
From moss and leaf our life is drawn. While it grows upon the path we shall never wilt.
Hidden Unn, we need you now. We grow tired away from you. Our leaves are falling.

@split zodiac I feel like these 3 tablets tell a pretty cohesive narrative of the mosskin

Unn's mind gives life to the mosskin through the foliage she made
She eventually goes eepy maybe due to gradual power loss from fueling her creations' life, and their leaves start wilting
Without Unn, the infection is able to take hold

Godseeker dialogue about Unn mentioning "land, dream, and devotion" is also interesting since the Mosskin talk about walking from her dream

But godseeker implies she lost that dream like she lost her land and devotion

[split zodiac]

Yeah, because of Radiance, since she was the one infecting everyone.
We have no record of beings going weaker by giving life to things

[split zodiac]

Considering that Greenpath looks perfectly lush, the Wilting line feels out of place

Nothing in Greenpath is wilting

So it makes sense they wrote it while they were going crazy by the Infection. Specially since Moss Prophet speaks against nature

"Light is life, beaming, pure, brilliant. To stifle that light is to suppress nature.
Nature suppressed distorts, plagues us. Embrace light! Achieve union! Oohh..Ahhh."

Or rather, is pro light

[valid rapids]

🥀 this argument all started from "Unn needs worship for power" with the evidence being "Unn has no power and no followers so because she needs worship for power, losing followers = losing power"

Imo it just makes more sense if the reason Unn's creations got poached by Radiance is because Unn had already weakened too much to protect them. Rather than "full power Unn lost her creations and is now weak"

[valid rapids]

Also the wilting is in regards to the mosskin not the cavern foliage

[split zodiac]

But they're not wilting!

[split zodiac]

I mean, the Pale King, in its full capacity, lost to Radiance

And we're talking about the Pale King

[valid rapids]

Infection can reanimate corpses, why cant it reanimate leaves

[split zodiac]

Why wouldn't Unn lose too? Radiance was just going rampant against everything anyway

And Unn didn't even like fighting

[valid rapids]

I mean, he was able to deal with the Infection, there was a whole era after THK sealing Rad that the City of Tears advanced to silk parchment instead of stone tablets

Its just his solution wasnt permanent. And I wouldnt say his beacon uplifting the bugs is anywhere near the connection Unn had with her creations, directly sustaining their life with her mind

I just think its disingenuous to disregard a tablet's telling of history as "oh no the mosskin were just insane"

[split zodiac]

I have no reason to think otherwise specially IS actually calling the Mosskin

And yet they can't hear her

[split zodiac]

"...She is calling... Home so close..."

This is from the Knight at the Lake

"In every bush and every vine the mind of Unn reveals itself to us."
But they can't hear her calling

I don't think all Higher Beings need worship for power, but they need someone to remember them to not die or be forgotten

I wish we could get a bit more explaning about Higher Beings honestly

[half coyote]

Yeah, if you are more powerful than everyone else, you get funny ideas in your head that they need to worship and respect you.

Funny thing about PK is that he is all spikes and intimidation and big words, but on the inside he really just wanted to be a dad 😢

[split zodiac]

And also the most common trait among Higher Beings is wanting followers

GMS, PK, Radiance and Unn

NMH is a weird case, I'm unsure if it counts

White Lady is an exception, but she fits no box

[half coyote]

White lady definitely did during peak hallownest

[split zodiac]

You would say that

But she's just

The same???????????

While her kingdom went to hell???????????????

[old sentinel]

Quick question, what's NMH again?

[split zodiac]

And she never had her own followers as far as we know? All her followers were just PK followers that respected her because she was a queen

[split zodiac]

Nightmare Heart

[old sentinel]

Oh yeah

[split zodiac]

We don't even have records of where she even came from??????????????????????????????????

[half coyote]

Why did White Lady stick around in her gardens insted of staying in white palace??

It must have been painful for her to separate herself from the roots that are going throughout the white palace.

[split zodiac]

Like we usually don't have records of Higher Beings

But White Lady is specially weird because like

At the very least most Beings were already there?????

And there's proof they were there

But WL has nothing

No connection to anything

She has no territory of her own

So she wasn't in Hallownest

And it was never stated that she came with the King?

[half coyote]

Based on Her and (Silksong spoiler) ||Greyroot|| it seems that she somewhat resembles a Parasite Family. I think the is noted to be the god of Reproduction or smthin

[split zodiac]

She just poofed into the lore for some reason

[split zodiac]

THAT'S WHAT IM SAYING IN SS LORE BUT PEOPLE THINK IM CRAZY

Well not right now, but I usually bring up that comparison

[half coyote]

Gtg

[oblique panther]

the white lady filled guilty for all the vessel she made with the pk and the white palace is directly connected to the vessel

[regal topaz]

Whos zotes dad :p

[oblique panther]

i think greyroot used someone like she used hornet but he didnt survived and turned into zote

[wanton zephyr]

Unknown bug with unknown name that we don’t care about

[regal topaz]

Oo okie

[wanton zephyr]

That’s a theory/speculation
Btw

Not canon

[oblique panther]

yeah just makes sense too me

[blissful crest]

a.) silksong stuff is supposed to be tagged
b.) this is entirely baseless

[oblique panther]

like milwkwy said theory

[blissful crest]

not even a theory it has no basis

[regal topaz]

oh alr

[valid rapids]

Theres honestly so much wrong with it 😭 it makes 0 sense

[timber void]

I doubt it. Zote doesn't really resemble Greyroot at all

But also silksong stuff shouldn't be really discussed here 😅

[regal barn]

is there sk lore?

[oblique panther]

no

[timber void]

There is head there instead

[timber void]

https://discord.com/channels/283467363729408000/1380233368523898991

[regal barn]

thats so evil they didnt put it under sk discussion smh

thank you

[oblique panther]

i only had sk discussion

[timber void]

It is, i think you just have it disabled by accident 😅

[timber void]

Yeah it hides it for some reason, you just have to fix it, a similar thing happened for sk help for me

I couldn't see it

Just unmute it

[regal topaz]

Someone asked if the Paleking had any fighting capability and now im curious !

[indigo venture]

Probably

Godseeker says he had quite the power iirc

[rugged comet]

Godseeker - Pantheon of Hallownest - Pale King Encounter

Even long departed, We feel the afterglow of the God-power that sat this throne... It lays heavy upon this kingdom.
That lingering power alone was beacon enough to draw Us to Hallownest. How bright it must have been to mortal bug stood before it.

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: Godseeker category: Pantheon of Hallownest dialogue: Pale King Encounter

[regal topaz]

Mmm okay ty

[rugged comet]

Godseeker - Pantheon of Hallownest - Pale King Exhaused dialogue

A God so strong... Yet erased so completely. How could it happen?

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: Godseeker category: Pantheon of Hallownest dialogue: Pale King Exhaused dialogue

[regal topaz]

so strong ooo alr

[indigo venture]

It isn-t necessarily fighting capabilities

But it's the first thing that came to mind

[lapis abyss]

Im zote

[timber void]

Counter argument: I am groot

[lapis abyss]

I refuse to talk about parents

They dissapoint me

[timber void]

Id imagine he had a lot of powerful abilities, but probably not focused on fighting. Not as much as other higher beings we see. My guess is he used his wit and intelligence more to his advantage. But honestly i might be talking out of my ass

[regal topaz]

cool cool have a nice death pfp which is cooler sob

[timber void]

Person of culture i see

[regal topaz]

Indeed

[lapis abyss]

Banger game

[light cedar]

Nuu is descended from Uun

Idk if she's a reincarnation, an avatar, or just offspring but yeah

[loud crater]

That’s a nice claim, why don’t you back it up with a source?

[blissful crest]

#sk-lore

[timber void]

My source is i made it tf up

[valid rapids]

Pure Vessel probably learned its spells from the Pale King

[slender kite]

Does he?

[half coyote]

nuu is new unn

[half coyote]

Yeah, PK probably had much control over Soul, but i think he could also manipulate Essence to some degree because he moved an entire Palace to the dreamworld

[slender kite]

Why? Why lock it in the mind of ONE kingsmould?

[split compass]

...would it even be possible to lock something in the mind of multiple beings simultaneously? how would that even work?

you'd either have it in multiple pieces, or have multiple points of entry

[half coyote]

If you think about it, a Kingsmold is basically a vessel, (which is something made to contain something) It was simply repurposed instead of only holding void It would hold the whole palace inside.

He basically used it for its intended purpose

[indigo venture]

A Kingsmould's body was created artifically

Vessels weren't

[half coyote]

Yeah, vessels have a biological body, so??

A kingsmold is a “Vessel” as far as what it does (its a container)

[indigo venture]

They're both Void Given Form

I'd say calling it "Basically a vessel" is a far stretch

Their functions are completely different

[light cedar]

I'm just spitballing a theory

Something that's been rattling in my brain though

If you plucked our Knight from the start of the game, and placed it into the black egg temple instead of THK, would the seal have held longer?

[indigo venture]

No?

No vessel is pure

[north mesa]

The big bug on the thrown of the colosseum was definitely killed by void.

There's a chamber specifically for shades, something only vessels can produce, which makes me think the Pale King ordered the colosseum install this to train the Hollow Knight, along with the soul refilling water pool in there too that works for vessels.

Also, the bug's eyes are dripping a black substance. The only substances known to do that are the infection and void. This is clearly void though.

[light cedar]

Because I wonder if the sealing required the vessel to grow or somehow harden its shell

[light cedar]

I said longer, not forever tbf

[indigo venture]

The chamber function's lorewise is unkown

[indigo venture]

Why would it last any different than THK

[light cedar]

Because otherwise what else was the point of raising THK to prime form

[indigo venture]

Self defense

[light cedar]

It's shell is that of a child and can only take 3 masks worth of damage to start

[indigo venture]

You rigt, maybe TK would last even less

[north mesa]

It's pretty obvious.
Why else would there be a chamber specifically for something vessels leave behind?

[indigo venture]

Game design

Shades just go back to the abyss when the shell is cracked

[light cedar]

Idk this is just picking away at me

[indigo venture]

The structure itself has the architecture of the AC

Shades didn't exist at that period of time

[light cedar]

Cos why risk "tainting" a vessel by raising it

[indigo venture]

It wasn't expected to have the ability to be "Tainted" imo

That's my take

[light cedar]

If it wasn't somehow part of the sealing process

[indigo venture]

Pale King allowed himself the indulgence of fatherhood because, if the vessel was pure, then it COULDN'T be tainted, no matter what it experienced

That's my take

[hot lily]

Lord Fool was NOT killed by Void

there are cases of eye streaks that are not caused by Void

[indigo venture]

Oh wait "Big Bug" was referring to The Lord Fool?

I thought he meant the carcass of the big thing

Im stupid

[hot lily]

that's not what tainted THK

what tainted THK was how it was created

[light cedar]

Thought it was both?

[indigo venture]

Me when the imprinted void (By Will) has a Will:

I mean Pale King's plan was just based on gambling and information that was so entirely wrong

[light cedar]

The sealed vessel was made impure by its attachment to papa genocide, but even if it hadn't the seal would have broken eventually because no vessel could ever be truly empty

[indigo venture]

It was made impure, but also was always impure?

The taint could've caused THK's "Effectiveness" to be worse, but as you said, it'd have failed regardless

[light cedar]

I think there needed to be a reason the sealed vessel had to be raised to be as powerful as it was when it was sealed

[indigo venture]

as I said, self-defense

And also, It was a Knight

[light cedar]

A weaker shell would have been easier for the radiance to break out of

[indigo venture]

[light cedar]

SV definitely delayed the process, assuming it was as powerful as Pure Vessel was/is

[indigo venture]

SV?

[light cedar]

It tore off it's own arm

[light cedar]

Sealed Vessel

[indigo venture]

Oh that one is a doozy

It likely rotted off

[light cedar]

I think it fought itself for a while at some point

[indigo venture]

It was chained

It couldn't move

How would have that worked

[light cedar]

No I mean thrashed around in its chains or something

[indigo venture]

Again, it couldn't move

When we enter the temple all it can do is follow us with it's head

And Radiance is KNOWN for wanting to kill TK bad

If it could trash around, it would, which leads me to believe it couldn't

[rugged comet]

Myla - Infected - Dream Nailed after defeating Soul Master

... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... DANGEROUS... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... KILL THE EMPTY ONE...
...how much longer... must I dig...?

@megathekindly used /npcs misc name: Myla category: Infected dialogue: Dream Nailed after defeating Soul Master

[indigo venture]

That's THK right there

bound by It's armor and chains

[light cedar]

Ok yeah I don't see how it's arm could have been injured consciously

[indigo venture]

Which is why I just assume it rotted off

[wanton zephyr]

Most assumed it just rotted off, but we don't know what really happened to it

[light cedar]

That's such an underwhelming answer to me I think

I wish we'd seen more decay on THK

[wanton zephyr]

That said, if it was in the temple for so long the great nail that I assumed was forged to pure quality turn into that state, it was certainly a long time

[indigo venture]

Hence the "assume"

It could have gotten overrun with Infection and just imploded or sum

[light cedar]

Do we ever get an idea of how long the seal held?

Or did it fail immediately

[indigo venture]

Well the Kingdom had time to rebuild and advance further than before the first wave of infection hit

and then it had the time to fall again into it's current state HK takes place in

Maybe like, a long time

[wanton zephyr]

We don't have a time, but the kingdom did have a mild peak again before it fell completely

[indigo venture]

We just repeating what I'm saying huh

[light cedar]

I wonder how many lifetimes of the average bug

[hot lily]

it was never made impure it was always impure

[indigo venture]

What thing

[indigo venture]

You forgot an _ there

There ya go

[light cedar]

Because the statue and plaque are pretty clear with their description and it needed to take long enough for that history to be forgotten to the point where it doesn't come up in anything Lem finds?

[indigo venture]

Yeah, as I said Hallownest had the time to rebuild and hit it's peak before THK failed

[light cedar]

I guess the pale king would have wanted to supress any knowledge of the infection or what the hollow knight's sacrifice was though

[indigo venture]

Wouldn't be exactly hard, imo

Specially considering the fact THK's statue is incredibly vague

[hot lily]

the peak was before THK was sealed

[indigo venture]

Disagree imo

[light cedar]

My logic is that the vessel was cooked the moment it got attached to its father, but even if that had never happened it was destined to break anyways because Void isn't truly empty: there would always have been some kind of self inside

[hot lily]

Lemm outright says it

[indigo venture]

For real?

Can you show

[indigo venture]

The Vessel was "Cooked" period

[hot lily]

"Another Wanderer's Journal, eh? This journal is of traditional stone type. Text endures well upon it.
In its declining age, this city switched from stone to parchment woven of spider's silk. It's a small tragedy, but the moisture in these towers has rendered most of those texts illegible."
the "declining age" was after THK was sealed

[indigo venture]

Huh

God I keep missing small shit and ending up looking silly

Thanks Serrara

I'll have to re-write my notes a bit

[light cedar]

Wait how would they have easily acquired spider silk en masse

[wanton zephyr]

But how do we know that that's the declining age?

[indigo venture]

Weavers

[hot lily]

no problem - i've been in this community for an extremely long time

[light cedar]

Weren't the majority of those in HK dead or leaving then though?

[hot lily]

lmao

[indigo venture]

Just jokin' of course

I know

[indigo venture]

Before

There was a deal made between weavers and PK

Weaver den dreamnail dialogue says it

[wanton zephyr]

The massive number of silk spools in hidden station suggested that at least the king had a lot of it

But there could be a deal with deepnest to trade silk

[rugged comet]

Dream Nail: Deepnest - Weaver - "...For bargain made..."

...For bargain made...

@megathekindly used /dream-nail area: Deepnest name: Weaver - "...For bargain made..."

[hot lily]

i mean you say yourself that it was always flawed, so the emotional attachment (which itself isn't necessarily implied) is not the original flaw

[indigo venture]

iirc it was this

[wanton zephyr]

Which bargain tho

is it Hornet? or is it silk

[indigo venture]

The Seals Of Bindings maybe?

[hot lily]

i don't think this is talking about silk I think it's a Hornet reference

[indigo venture]

Yeah that's what I noticed

"For princess" was right before

[wanton zephyr]

Did it say for princess?

[indigo venture]

Check yourself

"Herrah" "For protection" "Princess" "For Bargain made"

I guess it is solely talking about Herrah's deal

[wanton zephyr]

So... who was it that was arguing with me that Hornet isn't a princess...

[indigo venture]

Me when the daughter of a King and Queen isn't a princess

Who the fuck would even die in that hill, what's the point of it

[wanton zephyr]

They were insistent that PK's dalliance was not a known thing and Hornet was off the record or something

it was a whole thing

[hot lily]

...? White Lady LITERALLY TALKS ABOUT IT

[light cedar]

why the fuck

[indigo venture]

Don't mess with HK fanbase, half haven't played the game

[light cedar]

Meaning like to the public or

[wanton zephyr]

Alright thoughts

Is this true or

[light cedar]

She obviously is pale king related, the only way she wouldn't be a princess was if her existence was never even acknowledged

I mean

[indigo venture]

Oh "Legaly"

[hot lily]

"legally speaking" isn't relevant, the fact of the matter is that she's still related to PK even if it was via a different mother

[light cedar]

She's got as much claim to the throne as The Knight does

[indigo venture]

One thing is that she does not care for the title, whole other that she isn't technically a princess

Which the latter is untrue

[indigo venture]

I mean TK has King's Mark

[light cedar]

Y'know

[hot lily]

refuted by Silksong's marketing material & manual which calls her a "Princess-Protector"

[indigo venture]

Fair enough

[wanton zephyr]

yea i tried to look for it but the website... i think erased it? Cuz i ctrl-F and didn't find anything

[light cedar]

I always figured the Pale King and White Lady had some non vessel children before they murdered millions of them but that makes absolutely zero sense when you think about it for more than .5 seconds

[wanton zephyr]

I mean

[hot lily]

it's in the manual iirc

[indigo venture]

Don't

Don't you fucking dare

[wanton zephyr]

We don't see them so if they did exist they don't

[indigo venture]

I mean it wouldn't really make sense for them to HAVE children before

No reason to

[wanton zephyr]

The game surely would have given it to us if they had any children before

[light cedar]

Yeah but I don't think the white lady would have been able to go through with it if she'd already had children she loved

[indigo venture]

It's not like the game would just throw a random ability and give it to PK and then never elaborate on it whatsoever

[wanton zephyr]

(Also i mean they are kind of immortal and will rule forever so they aren't like... desperate for heirs)

[hot lily]

we can't know if there were any other children or not besides Hornet

[indigo venture]

White Lady would be down to have children at any time before The Vessel Plan

But as far as we know she didn't

[light cedar]

I feel like the game would have at least shown them dead if they existed

[indigo venture]

This whole idea seems more like a wild headcanon than a theory proper

[hot lily]

yeah really

[light cedar]

You want wild headcanon

[indigo venture]

No

[wanton zephyr]

No

[indigo venture]

Not really

Not the point of this channel

[light cedar]

The shade theme is diegetic

[indigo venture]

What the fuck does Diegetic mean

[wanton zephyr]

So, chat... any idea who the White Lady was raising in the nursery? (or what child it was intended for if it wasn't raised there)

[light cedar]

that the knight hears it somehow when it plays unlike most of the music in the game

based purely on it showing up in the white lady's throne room

[light cedar]

My guess is the sealed vessel

[indigo venture]

THK was not that small

My guess is Hornet

[indigo venture]

White Lady's throne room?

[wanton zephyr]

I mean, that chair is also tinier than white lady

[light cedar]

The nursery with her throne in it

[wanton zephyr]

And her silhouette is made smaller

[light cedar]

Wonder if she was ever physically that size or PK's subconscious somehow shrunk her chair

[wanton zephyr]

Also wdym THK was not that small it literally was about the size of TK and TK would fit perfectly in it-

[indigo venture]

I did not remember how big if it was

[wanton zephyr]

Bro is just saying things

[light cedar]

The knight could absolutely fit into that

[indigo venture]

Is this Snail

[light cedar]

So sealed vessel would have

Oh for fucks sake

I think there's gotta be SOMETHING with the shade theme

It plays as a lullaby in that nursery

[indigo venture]

The Main Menu theme plays like 10 times

[wanton zephyr]

Or... maybe it's a leitmotif for lore purposes

[light cedar]

wouldn't it show up elsewhere

[stark spruce]

I think the Knights not dead and I can prove

Because at the end of the game in one ending it shows his broken mask BUT no shade because when you normally die a SHADE is left behind so that would also mean the knight might come back, and that's the only ending he dies in
1 ending he's infected not dead
2 ending he's consumed the radiance and become the shade lord
He's left with the broken mask
And the others nothing cool

[hot lily]

the Knight cannot canonically resurrect itself, respawning isn't canon

[indigo venture]

The Knight never dies in any ending

It's not like losing it's shell in DnM would affect it whatsoever

[stark spruce]

So he does or doesn't die

[hot lily]

false

it eventually dies in THK and SeSi

[indigo venture]

It will die eventually in Thk and SeSi yes

That's the same as me saying you die

Or that I die

Duh

[hot lily]

...so then why did you say this

[indigo venture]

[timber void]

I think he means the knights shell breaks, but its shade gets left behind, just like all the other siblings

[stark spruce]

Yes

[timber void]

So he dies, but his shade is still sticking around

[stark spruce]

That's what I'm saying

[indigo venture]

Would THK's shade have even "Died" had not TK showed up

Is that a thing that could happen

I'm assuming yes because the Shade was permanently damaged

[hot lily]

ok well in DNM/ETV that's not considered a form of death in that circumstance

[stark spruce]

Thanks

[timber void]

I mean if you want to get technical the knight already died before he even got out of the abyss

[indigo venture]

The original child did yeah

Then the Imprinted void aka the shade took over the body

A Vessel losing it's shell isn't really death for the vessel

[timber void]

Just a new state of being

[indigo venture]

The original child of Pale King and White Lady, and vessels are two different things I'd say

[hot lily]

it is in the case of not having Void Heart

if it has Void Heart then the shell isn't necessary anymore

[indigo venture]

Can you elaborate

[timber void]

Even without voidheart it would just turn into a shade

[indigo venture]

I do not understand what your trying to say here

[stark spruce]

I think when there's more games with different characters the final boss might be the shade lord knight or a ally because isn't the shade lord like the lord of all gods and how in the godhome ending WE/the knight becomes the shade lord so wouldn't the knight be the MOST powerful so far unless we hear about a more superior and powerful character I had a predition

[timber void]

I think he refering to how voidheart allows the knight to turn into the void given focus form, the one from DnM

[indigo venture]

Wow okay

Give me a second to reply to this

[stark spruce]

Prediction

[indigo venture]

Void Given Focus IS The Knight

They're one and the same being

Okay yeah I'm having a hard time understanding what you said Ghost, I'm sorry

[timber void]

Yeah, but hes talking about the difference between his normal shade, and the void given focus which is only seen when you get void heart

[indigo venture]

He is?

[timber void]

He said if the knight has void heart, then his body isn't needed anymore, like we see in Dnm how the knight willingly sheds its shell and turns into void given focus

I think thats what that person means

[hot lily]

*she

[indigo venture]

Who are we talking about?

Oh Serrara

[timber void]

Mb

[indigo venture]

DnM doesn't turn into Void Given Focus in DnM

It's Void Given Form

At least that's what the statue of it in Godhome is called

[timber void]

Yeah thats what i mean sorry, but the same could be said of either Void given form or focus

[quartz radish]

Who thinks we need a games for the dream warriors/bosses

[pseudo lodge]

You mean for each one a game or them all in one game?

[quartz radish]

Yeah

Unless you want single ones

[pseudo lodge]

Nah, that's why I was asking. Single ones wouldn't really be worth it considering most have almost no lore or background story. One game about every would be better, question is how would it work out.

[quartz radish]

Yeah

[marble birch]

Ye, that form is called the Lord of Shades/Void Given Form. Ghost only achieves true ascension into Void Given Focus/God of Gods by felling Radiance at the height of her power, and Void Heart being Attuned by the Godseeker’s mind, causing the whole of Void to essentially recombine and unify.

[hot lily]

correct

[indigo venture]

Lord of Shades can apply to both VGFocus and VGForm, but yes

[tranquil zenith]

Is the radiance a pale being?

[hot lily]

iirc no

[sand stump]

No, they're an essence being

[indigo venture]

Dream world Higher Being

[sand stump]

Same same

[split compass]

she's never explicitly called such
though in light of SS lore, it wouldn't surprise me if she were confirmed to be one later

[sand stump]

well actually no

[sand stump]

Could you elaborate on this for me?

[royal topaz]

She's definitely not a pale being

[tranquil zenith]

well aren't pale beings defined by them needing to imput some kinda of rule, like how the pale king is yk a king and how gms took pharloom from karmalita, kahnn and clover dancers

[indigo venture]

Spoiler tag Silksong stuff

[sand stump]

White Lady doesn't have an incessant need to rule

and shes a pale being

[split compass]

SS thpoilerth
||pale beings are revealed to be part of an entire 'higher caste' which includes many different entities (PK, WL, Silk, Hornet, etc.)
it would not surprise me if Radiance were included as well
she is similar visually to Silk and an extent PK, she and PK are both called 'lights' by Monomon & the Seer, PK calls her 'Blazing Kin', etc.||

[royal topaz]

Pale beings seem to be connected to soul, whilst the Radiance is connected to dreams/essence

[sand stump]

Aaah

Thats what you mean

[split compass]

Hornet does suggest as much, though it's not universal
||pharloom's Mask Maker does suggest that pale beings/higher caste tend to ensnare mortal bugs in their service and vie with one-another for dominance
I think that encapsulates what went down in Hallownest pretty well||

[indigo venture]

It's not like Radiance tried to do so before PK appeared though, at least I don't recall it being mentioned

She created the Moth Tribe and that's pretty much it

[tranquil zenith]

||and she does say to the snail shaman how she does get the urge to take gms place cuz its in her nature since she's half pale being||

[split compass]

yeah

though PK and WL seemed pretty chill

[sand stump]

Nah she kinda just got pissy and lashed out

[sand stump]

I think it does depend on age

[split compass]

PK was expanding, but seemed pretty reasonable about it

yeah, who knows how things might have gone in the future

[sand stump]

But this is baseless in the game and mostly goes with how people mature with age

[sand stump]

Plus, he very much overestimated himself and could've thought he could just take the land after everyone else fell

[sand stump]

Which might've been the case if it wasn't for the Radiance

[tough zephyr]

I have a question if the pale king needed the most pure vessel why didnt he pick the brother from pantheon 4 literally named the pure vessel instead of the hollow knight to hold the radiance. He is obviously the better choice out of the siblings

[indigo venture]

I can't tell if this is a meme or not

PV Is THK

[split compass]

the Pure Vessel in the pantheons is the dream version of the Hollow Knight, a memory of their uninfected self

[indigo venture]

Hey Yak

I actually had a question for you

[split compass]

shoot

[indigo venture]

Do you think PV is a Perfected version like AbsRad or just THK's "Prime" like Nailsage Sly

I just had someone try and argue PV was Pure because it was a perfected version and I didn't know how to actually debate against it

So I wanted to know your input and steal it

[split compass]

I think they are a prime version, their strongest self, not empowered beyond what they were in the past

I am undecided on whether the Pure Vessel might actually be pure, because I don't know if the Godseeker would recognize that sort of quality
but they are ultimately a memory, and so could not be a genuine vessel in any case

[sand stump]

Just say that even in a perfected form the fact that it had the capability of thought in any way at any form
Means it Is susceptible to the Radiance and the Infection

[indigo venture]

It seems pretty cheap

Imo

[sand stump]

Well it's true though

[split compass]

well...

[sand stump]

They're arguing "this thing with a mind can contain the Radiance cuz it's perfect"

[indigo venture]

Right the fact GS calls it a memory or something along those lines

[split compass]

it's 'worldly body' is defiled, but the glory of its 'pure form' endures

GS recognizes a lack of the 'defilement', the infection, but I don't know if they know about or care what PK wanted to achieve with 'purity'

the fact that they regard PV as a 'god of nothingness' and are afraid of their 'silence' is pretty interesting though

[indigo venture]

There's a lot of interesting stuff in Godmaster that never gets an answer

Like Void beings statues having cracks

[tranquil zenith]

Pale king decided to be a good father for once which screwed over his kingdom and white lady is just fine

[sand stump]

Maybe their statues are cracked because the power of the Void lays within them
As those Statues allow you to challenge Void beings

[indigo venture]

Void Given Focus's

[indigo venture]

The Kingdom was already screwed to begin with, although being a good father probably made it worse

[split compass]

I think those are just because its a statue

don't the other statues have cracks?

[indigo venture]

Maybe

Never actually bothered to check

I'm not going to

[tranquil zenith]

I have beef with the pale king

[split compass]

one Godseeker mystery that did get answered - Godseekers wonder if White Lady is 'one of Them', and that the odds of meeting one is very rare
I guess 'They' are pale beings after all

[split compass]

that's the spirit

[sand stump]

Well that's a statue of the Lord of the Void and is abyssal in colour even compared to the others
So it probably has Void writhing within

[hot lily]

that's incorrect, Godseeker identifies them as a memory from THK

[onyx shadow]

what happens to Godseeker on the Radiance battle when we ascend, like does she get devoured by the void or what

[mighty dove]

“PV is pure” sure it is

[misty raven]

hes purely a good boi

[hazy temple]

Is the nail canonically stronger than the needle?

[safe prairie]

they do the same amount of dmg at each level iirc so no

not really
irl though the needle would be stronger(see sellsword arts)

[lofty lily]

Kinda surprised that they tweaked the dialogue in the update. https://fxtwitter.com/mossbag69/status/2022801519163097105

mossbag (@mossbag69)

New Hollow Knight update removes any reference to "years". 9 years since launch and they are changing the lore to make it even more vague.

**💬 25 🔁 107 ❤️ 4.7K 👁️ 161.5K **

FxTwitter · Feb 14, 2026, 10:33 PM

Years being referenced in Hollow Knight never really made much sense IMO, with the universe seeming to lack a sun.

There's no indication of the universe having seasons that I can recall.

[split compass]

yey

[safe prairie]

what did it say before

[safe prairie]

where does the light shining in the cracks come from in greenpath and queen's gardens then

[wanton zephyr]

Clearly it’s bioluminescent bacteria inside the dirt that neither you nor I can know

But seriously right above Greenpath is dirt, and above that is where you’ve seen dirtmouth
Whatever light there is def not from the sun

[safe prairie]

fair

[lofty lily]

Exactly:

[indigo venture]

It's From Radiance guys

She's the sun

Jeez

[wanton zephyr]

Damn
She’s in the dirt…

[indigo venture]

I mean she infected the air

I can see how it happened

[rugged comet]

Hunter's Journal: Lightseed

Description:
A single-celled organism, completely infected. Scurries about simple-mindedly.

Hunter's notes:
Strange air has been seeping down from above for years. Some of the air became liquid, and some of that liquid became flesh, and some of that flesh came to life. I don't know what to make of it.

Dream Nail:
...LIGHT...
...BRIGHT...
...GLOW...

@megathekindly used /journal name: Lightseed

[indigo venture]

"Above"

What does Hunter mean as "Above"? as in Above Greenpath?

[wanton zephyr]

From above
I have to assume the temple in crossroads
Isn’t Hunter like, really far down in Greenpath

To him crossroads is above

[indigo venture]

He could've written that before settling in his little cave or wtv

[lusty plinth]

above ancient basin

??

[frigid kayak]

so GS whole thing is basically trying to attune to gods and eventually find the “god of gods” that stands above all and bask in their glory. im assuming tht while it looks like the GS is getting consumed by the void, thts just what “basking” looks like for those who choose the void. you can tell her face is frozen in awe and amazement instead of fear when she’s covered which makes me think she def was getting what she asked for in a way, it just didn’t look all bright and sunshiny like they made it out to be lmao

[indigo venture]

Her whole body seems to be

[wanton zephyr]

Hole

[indigo venture]

She is constantly looking up, not following VGFocus's descent

It's either her being flabbergasted that Radiance died, Her being stunned in fear, Or being in utter awe at VGFocus's birth

[onyx shadow]

wait wait wait, I haven't finished P5

[wanton zephyr]

Why are you here..

[onyx shadow]

maybe that's what I'm missing of the lore

why not?

I have absolutely everything but P5 tho, believe me

welp, and radRad, attempting it rn

I asked that cuz I noticed it in one of my many attempts but forgor that it's actually part of the lore when you finish P5 and yeah

[frigid kayak]

SHIT IM SO SORRY

how do i make my txt blurry for spoilers thts fr my b man

[wanton zephyr]

Put two || sticks on both sides of the message

[timber void]

The temple is at the top of the crossroads. Remember the Hunter traveled the whole kingdom before settling in Greenpath

[pseudo lance]

Since it came up in #sk-discussion why does Grimm need to be replaced, do the nightmare flames slowly consume the vessel from within?

Or is there a different reason?

[wanton zephyr]

Not sure
I kinda assumed Grimm’s body ages like a normal bug (cuz he’s not a vessel, who’s dead) so it needs to be replaced every so often

[primal bridge]

Hey so like why does PK’s body disappear on a repeat visit to the white palace? Does it have to do with the Kingsoul? Does this mean he’s been reincarnated again after all? I don’t get it chat what are the implications

[signal marlin]

not everything has meaning

[timber void]

Cause normally you're not supposed to go back at all

I dont think theres a lore reason

In earlier versions of HK, after getting the Kingsoul, you weren't able to go back to the White Palace

[primal bridge]

It feels kind of boring for there to just be no reason for his body that’s been there for who knows how long to just vanish without a trace

[timber void]

Sure... i guess?

[primal bridge]

I’m not crazy just pale king brainrotted I swear (I say as they drag me into the padded room)

[indigo venture]

[pseudo lance]

Hmmm, a lot of folks have said this, but idk j just think it makes more sense (and is way cooler) if hosting a higher being is destroying him from within. Similar to what happens to thk but much slower due to it being a willing pact rather than imprisonment.

[indigo venture]

He doesn't really seem affected if that'd be the case

You'd figure there would be a visual cue if Grimm was just slowly dying or sum'

[pseudo lance]

I mean I do point to him sounding like he smokes a pack a day as result of his decay but still that's speculative

[frigid kayak]

honestly just thought tht “Grimm” was more of a monicker like a shortened version of the grimmchild and it’s caught in an inescapable cycle of death and rebirth perpetuated by the flame and the ritual the troupe is bound to. like they’re caught in a time loop sort of, with no choice but to continually repeat the endless dance. as for being replaced, it’s not really a replacement if it’s the same being with the same memories, i think of it like how in anime you can be reincarnated with your memories. technically you’re in a different body, but the mind and soul remain the same making it essentially the same person

[frigid kayak]

and thank you so much🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 || im definitely going to be abusing this power lmao ||

[sand stump]

It doesn't need to be replaced, the ritual is to make the Vessel stronger and better than it was before
Plus, Grimm appears to consume the Child at the start of almost every fight

That's why you can banish the troupe and nothing would really happen to them
They'd just move onto the next area

[frigid kayak]

no i really get tht, like with the way he’s described throughout the game it makes him seem more powerful than the laws of nature tht confine most things. like, if a being tht was capable of moving an entire castle into another realm which you normally have to die to get to, all while he was in his decline, and upon finding his corpse he was pretty much perfectly preserved and somehow just disappeared, i’d have some questions👀🙂‍↕️although the more likely answer is that his assets prob weren’t programmed to exist after the first visit and tht was never changed even though the area now remains open(which i didn’t know was a thing tbh lmao thought you only got one shot to pop a squat on tht throne)
or they did try to change it so he’d remain n it like fucked the code up so TC decided to just say fuck it n get rid of him🤷🏾‍♂️

[frigid kayak]

it’s actually kind of ominous to think tht so many random bugs of dead/dying kingdoms have done battle with Grimm AND WON to complete the dance and the ritual💀i don’t even wanna think about how many tries it took me

[marble birch]

There is a big distinction between the Lord of Shades and Void Given Focus. As the Lord of Shades, Ghost still retains some level of individuality. As Void Given Focus, it is no longer any individual Shade, but rather the Void itself made sentient.

[blissful crest]

that’s not really true

I don’t know why the knight would suddenly not be in control or have their individuality once strengthened

[timber void]

The void seems to be always sentient, but it doesn't have focus, it lashes out at all directions at the will of an unfocused sea of minds. After getting void heart, it just unifies the void under one single mind, or focuses the void.

[marble birch]

Because its Shade has on a wider level ceased to be. It has unified the whole of Void back into the original consciousness it once was due to the Void Heart ramping up to full power via Godseeker’s attunement.

[blissful crest]

It didn’t cease to be, it was intensified and given a stronger form

[marble birch]

Well it has, moreso on a cognitive level, lost its individuality. It has, in full, unified the Void, not just as a leader, but having more or less recompleted Void’s original form, the ‘Ancient Enemy’ Radiance saw in it now awakening from its slumber.

[blissful crest]

you can’t assert the knight lost its individuality cognitively.

The radiance refers to vessels as her ancient enemy, not the void at large.

Furthermore, claiming that “this is the void’s original recompleted form” is also false due to the lord of shades not existing prior to the events of the game in any sense

[marble birch]

Once Knight ascends into Void Given Focus, it becomes indiscriminately hostile, even possibly reanimating the Hollow Knight to confront Hornet. How could Radiance refer to the Vessels as ‘Ancient Enemy’, given they’re largely only children? They’re entirely new, recent creations. Also Void Given Focus is hinted to have existed at least once before, given the shape many of the Soul Totems scattered around the Map take resembling it.

[blissful crest]

“Indiscriminately hostile” isn’t true
“Reanimating the Hollow Knight to confront Hornet” Void Heart doesn’t control imprinted void, and THK isn’t dead in those endings
“How could Rad refer to vessels at ancient enemy, given they’re largely only children”
Hallownest is an ancient kingdom that has been long dead

And I’m not engaging with your headcanon that vgf existed before because of the soul totems that don’t bare much of a resemblance and most likely are meant to be ancient civilization members anyways, you’ve already been debunked before on this take and I’m not wasting my time addressing it again

[blissful crest]

To elaborate on the first rebuttal, it isn’t hostile in the slightest. A large flood of void is leaving the dream realm much as in Dream no More, except the exit is an actual person.

Godseeker Mode also takes place after etv, and they aren’t murdering everyone in sight there.

[marble birch]

I was never debunked, though? No one could provide anything resembling real, hard evidence against that.

[hot lily]

ok so you're blatantly ignoring contradicting evidence

[blissful crest]

yes you were

the similarities were paper thin and the other examples of soul totems bared no resemblance

and yknow

lemm’s dialogue explicitly saying they didn’t worship a lord or god that you decided to sidestep

[marble birch]

I never sidestepped that?

Void Given Focus isn’t any sort of lord or God, but rather an avatar of the Void itself. It is the darkness the Old Bugs worshipped, having at some point gained sentience and a will of its own, and attained some level of shape. The vagueness of the Soul Totems likely stems from this avatar only being vaguely glimpsed by its followers, down in the deepest darkness of the Abyss, so there’s no 100% accurate representation of this creature, especially given Void as a substance is portrayed as liquid and amorphous.

[hot lily]

it's an avatar of the void itself, however that is still different from the substance itself; the former was not the entity who was worshipped by the AC

[marble birch]

Well it’s less its own entity and moreso a ‘body’ the Void sculpted for itself once it had the will to do so with. Once its worshippers died out and it fell out of power, this avatar likely dissolutes as its will fractured and fragmented apart, resulting in the Void entering a sort of dormant state afterwards. The Knight, exposing Void Heart at the height of Godseeker’s attunement, essentially woke the Void back up from that state of dormancy and fragmentation, fusing the shards of its will back into the collective whole.

[hot lily]

first 2 sentences (and part of the 3rd) are still incorrect, because a statue from the AC describes the void as "without unity" prior to Void Heart's existence; thus, no, the Void did not in fact exist in that state beforehand

[marble birch]

Hm. But the Statue’s dialogue seems to be in part fragmented. We don’t quite grasp the full message, so it’s left unclear if ‘Power…Without Unity’ refers to Void having had power even in a fragmented state, or if the Statue laments Void lacking Power due to a Unity having been lost.

Albeit the biggest mystery regarding Void Lore-wise is still probably the existence of life in the Abyss, I.E. the Shadow Creepers.

[indigo ginkgo]

Are ther actual real life spiders in hollow knight?

🕷

[hot lily]

it's the former, because Bardoon states that Void Heart is "a strength before unseen"

if Void was previously unified, Bardoon wouldn't say something like that given that he also talks about VH being "such union in a single being" immediately before that quote

[marble birch]

True, though this refers to Void Heart specifically, not the Void as a whole. It’s left largely ambiguous about that time period.

[hot lily]

no no no

VH is "such union in a single being" and is "a strength before unseen"

thus, Void wasn't previously united

i don't think you're getting it

[marble birch]

But the Void Statue down in the Abyss contradicts this.

Or at the very least muddies the waters.

[marble birch]

Like we don’t know if Bardoon is referring to Unity haven’t been seen before, or if he’s referring to having never seen Unity commanded by only one creature. Is the ‘Strength Before Unseen’ referring to the Unification of Void, or to the unique capabilities of the Void Heart itself?

Or hell he might even be referring to the Knight itself as the Strength before unseen, given what it eventually becomes.

[hot lily]

no it doesn't, because it says "power...without unity"

[marble birch]

Yes but we’re still notably missing context due to its message being fragmented.

[hot lily]

what's saying it's fragmented

[marble birch]

There’s gaps in the dialogue leaving the full statement of its thoughts unfinished.

[hot lily]

not all ellipses are necessarily gaps

some are meant to bridge between sentences

[marble birch]

We don’t know what exactly the Statue is referring to and we don’t know what exactly it means. Like I said it could be one of two things: The Statue might be marveling at how Void has retained its power even lacking Unity, or lamenting the Void having lost its Power due to a loss of Unity.

Though in the end it’s left ambiguous. I’d be curious to see if at any later point we might get deeper Lore into that ancient time when Void was the highest power and could get some of these uncertainties cleared.

Like we know so far in the timeline that in the ancient past, Void was the highest seat of power back when it had active worshippers. At some point the Radiance entered the picture, but i’m unsure if this happened during or after Void’s era of being in power.

[meager junco]

is it true that tiso made it to trial of the fool or am i this delusional

[sick scaffold]

I heard a theory that he died to the brooding mawlek in ToF, because that’s what kills him in Godhome

[meager junco]

if thats true thats crazy how he made it all the way to ToF

[sick scaffold]

Only the most powerful warriors can dream of getting past zote

[meager junco]

fun fact i kept zote in deepnest

[hot lily]

Spoiler that, also not meant for this channel

[sick scaffold]

mb

[still gulch]

Guys guys guys

Snail Shamans vs Tthe entire funking Soul Sanctum

[wanton zephyr]

I don’t believe that Void Given Focus (or a Lord of Shades) has ever existed in history, not even in ancient civilization time, never seen even in their dreams

The AC make vague statues and idols for worshipping purposes, and those resemble how they themselves look cuz they only have themselves to go off of

They were only worshipping the void, a nothingness with no form

[blissful crest]

You’d think if it existed prior the literal void idol would be almost one to one with it

[wanton zephyr]

Yea
If they have seen it before the statues wouldn’t look so diverse

[marble birch]

Still this looks awfully familiar, doesn’t it?

[blissful crest]

No

Having long horns isn’t the only defining feature of void given focus

and agaib

[marble birch]

Wide, almost mask-like head coming to a rounded endpoint at the bottom? Flares off into wide, curved horns?

[blissful crest]

not doing this again

[marble birch]

Only one being we witness at any point has a ‘face’ bearing this resemblance.

[deep schooner]

The crease down the mask doesnt really resembe vgf

[marble birch]

Well yeah but that’s just part of the Totem’s design, the actual thing it’s based off of is made from liquid Void.

[blissful crest]

the horn count is not the same nor is their shape even
the complete lack of facial features and the line dividing it in half doesn’t help either
this is also very clearly a shell-like body

[timber snow]

i think it’s more likely the totems are based off of AC members

[deep schooner]

It probaby resembles a bug from the ancient civilisation

[marble birch]

That makes no sense, why would they worship themselves?

They wouldn’t make effigies of worship unless there was something to model them after.

[timber snow]

it’s not
it’s a soul totem
you know what a statue is? we have statues of humans doesn’t necessarily mean we worship them
could’ve been an important member to be immortalized

[deep schooner]

Pk probably didnt worship pv but theres a bunch of his soul tots in pop

[marble birch]

Still a totem means it has some level of spiritual or religious significance, and they worshipped the dark. They had an idol to mould these Totems in the, albeit vague, image of.

[marble birch]

I think the Soul Totems of the Pure Vessel were possibly made by the King’s retainers, as they worshipped the King. They would have no doubt worshipped the Vessel as well, given it is in part born from their liege.

[timber snow]

it stills holds significance, it’s filled with soul and they were avid soul users
it being an important piece doesn’t mean it was based off of their figure of worship, which is noted specifically to not be a lord or anything other than void itself

[deep schooner]

Ig that makes sense

[marble birch]

They saw the Vessel as the great sacrifice, their King’s tribute made to save the world. To this end, it is holy in their eyes.

[timber snow]

and like, this is not the only soul totem design
are the other ones also supposed to be VGFocus?

why this one in particular there is a soul totem with way crazier horns

[deep schooner]

Also the soul totems also depict other shapes not just the alleged vgf, but also other bugs ans stuff like that

[deep schooner]

And id it really would be vgf

Wouldnt it be logic for it to hold a shit ton of soul since its a godly being

[deep schooner]

Compared to this 'random' thing (which im pretty sure gives more soul than the vgf statue) it doesnt really make sense

[marble birch]

Void Given Focus is not a God, nor does it contain Soul. As far as I can gleam from Lore, it was the avatar of the Void’s consciousness, its will given a shape. It is the manifestation of the mind of the darkness itself.

[timber snow]

they are AC member statues
they have the ridges that AC members have, the masks aren’t that different from AC masks (all known members have pretty unique horns)

[deep schooner]

Another thing being void doesnt really hold soul

[onyx shadow]

No dw it's good haha

[marble birch]

Ye. Void holds no Soul, though hungers to consume it.

[deep schooner]

Like black holes

They dont really hold anything but always consume

[timber snow]

if you wanna get really crazy you could argue some of HK bugs are their descendants

either way, the totems are clearly meant to be based on bugs

[marble birch]

The Void will more or less consume anyone or anything it manages to ensnare, though if it has any higher goal, I remain unsure. We know it was worshipped for a time.

[deep schooner]

Mainly being the AC but now or atleast a while ago while PK still ruled he deemed it as his enemy

[marble birch]

We know Radiance considered it her foe, given she sees the spark of its presence in the Knight as ‘ANCIENT ENEMY’.

[wanton zephyr]

I personal 2 cents is that the statues are based off of AC bugs cuz they can’t just craft a glob of void into a statue to worship it, they needed a figure of reverence, so they based the shape off of themselves (bugs)

It’s like how nobody knows what any religious figures look like so they make them humanoid because that’s something they know exactly how it looks

[deep schooner]

Yeah

[deep schooner]

Yeah that makes the most sense

[blissful crest]

void given focus is a god what do you mean

[pure inlet]

Lord of shades is a god

Only base TK isn’t anything

[blissful crest]

Quite literally is the current god of gods

[marble birch]

‘Not Bug, Nor Beast, nor God.’ That’s Godseeker’s description of the Knight, and this is before it even reaches its full ascendancy.

[loud crater]

Huh?

[blissful crest]

yeah? She’s biased and void messes with attunement

[wanton zephyr]

God as a title is finicky cuz Godseeker’s category of defining gods is unknown to all but them

[marble birch]

Void Given Focus is an entity beyond mere Godhood, for it is the darkness itself.

[blissful crest]

and the knight without void heart is different than the knight with it

[pure inlet]

Huh

No the darkness itself is raw void

[blissful crest]

asserting that void given focus isn’t a god by any metric is literally just false

[loud crater]

From what I understand a God is just a strong being, a Higher Being is a more traditional God.

[blissful crest]

they think vgf is some ancient entity reawakened by the knight that is just darkness itself

also that the soul totems depict it

[wanton zephyr]

Funny enough the godseeker’s also didnt know the knight was a god

And when they finally realized they were apologizing profusely lmao

[deep schooner]

Dawg if soul warrior is considered a god

[pure inlet]

Wait zero we already talked about this

VGF didn’t exist in any form

[blissful crest]

she is just biased about the knight because they intruded + void messes with attunement somewhat

[pure inlet]

Void is power without unity

[blissful crest]

hello

what the fuck

[pure inlet]

Hello

[rugged comet]

Godseeker - Pantheon of the Knight - First Encounter

Show reverence, o meagre one. Show fear! Thou approacheth a great and terrible God.
Though its worldly body be bound and defiled, the glory of its pure form endures, ruler of this pantheon. Its endless power shall attune Us to the one greater still, a God of Gods!
Meagre one, dost thou imagine thyself the equal of this God? Dost thou imagine thyself made in its image? Thou assume a similar shape, and the deep echo within thee seems familiar...
Ahh! What thoughts are these? Thou sow blasphemies in Our mind, wretch! Begone! We pray that the God of nothingness silence thee forever!

@kingoclowns used /npcs quest name: Godseeker category: Pantheon of the Knight dialogue: First Encounter

[marble birch]

We don’t know that 100% though, the Void Statue’s thought is fragmented/damaged, so we’re missing context there.

[blissful crest]

No the bot shit itself

[blissful crest]

No it isn’t

[pure inlet]

No it’s not

[blissful crest]

that’s baseless to assert

[pure inlet]

Ellipsis are just used to denote thought breaks in DND

[timber snow]

theres a gap in the sentence, to indicate a pause

not missing dialogue

[pure inlet]

“It is stronger even than me... does it know that? Will it return to hunt me...? I hope it tries.”

This doesn’t mean Hunter’s statements are incomplete

[blissful crest]

that’s usually how ellipses are used as well

[marble birch]

Okay sure but still we don’t know the full context as to what the Statue is referring to.

[wanton zephyr]

The entire time they thought the knight was some pest who manage to slip into their sacred place somehow and thought the gods they attune will cook them

And up until the end before Absrad she was still in denial even though she has her doubts TK might be more than just a pest

[blissful crest]

Yes we do

[pure inlet]

Void is power without unity?

[blissful crest]

they say exactly what they mean

[pure inlet]

And then you unify it and it has unity

[wanton zephyr]

Void is power
Without unity that’s what it means

[marble birch]

We only have a vague mention of ‘Void…Power…Without Unity…’ But we don’t know the context of what this implies.

Either the Statue is awed that the Void retains power even with no Unity, or is lamenting the Void’s lost power due to a loss of Unity.

[pure inlet]

We don’t 100% I guess but there’s no real reason to extrapolate

[blissful crest]

the context is that void has power but no unity bruh

[pure inlet]

When it tells you what is going on believe it

[blissful crest]

you’re assuming it means anything else

[wanton zephyr]

Just read it as a sentence

Void, power without unity

Take it at face value

[blissful crest]

it requires a lot more assumptions to think they’re saying it was unified before and somehow became ununified

[blissful crest]

and yknow, ignoring lemm’s explicit dialogue corroborating the whole no deity/unity thing

[marble birch]

I think it could go either way, between one of those two points. Though we don’t know for sure.

[blissful crest]

No, because one requires more assumptions

[marble birch]

Both require a fair number of assumptions, though we still don’t have enough context for a full deduction. I’m mostly just going off of what few hints we have as to the Void’s past.

[blissful crest]

no they don’t

[pure inlet]

To assume void was once unified means you doubt the confident words of a learned scholar as well as a likely AC member

(also making things up)

[blissful crest]

the assumption is literally reading the text

and believing the text that isn’t implied to be false

that’s just reading comprehension dude

[timber snow]

one requires less
we are told the AC never worshipped a lord before

[marble birch]

Yeah. We’re still missing a lot of pieces. Hopefully in the future we might get more Lore to try and fill in some of these blanks.

[wanton zephyr]

What blanks..

[marble birch]

Well in the grand scheme of things, Void and its time period in power still largely remains a mystery to us.

[wanton zephyr]

In power? It was never “in power” it’s just there

[marble birch]

This is a big part of why even in-universe, things like Arcane Eggs are thought to be supremely valuable, since so little is known of ‘that time’.

[wanton zephyr]

And sure we don’t know if it has always existed
But it doesn’t do anything by itself

[marble birch]

Well there was a time when the Void had active worshippers.

[wanton zephyr]

Sure but TC doesn’t like to specify time in their works
They even remove any mentions of year

So it’s just “ancient times”

[marble birch]

As far as I can piece together, Hallownest’s timeframe goes along the lines of Void having been the first higher power the Bugs worshipped. At some point, Radiance enters the picture and came into conflict with Void.

[blissful crest]

if she actually came into contact with void you’d see something about that in resting grounds

[marble birch]

She does refer to the Knight, or rather, that spark of Void in it, as ‘ANCIENT ENEMY’, so she’s fought the dark before and considers it an opponent or possibly a rival.

[pure inlet]

Could be that or PK

[timber snow]

is she referring to TK or just vessels/pk

[pure inlet]

Hallownest is ancient too

[timber snow]

both are ancient by then

pho my god apple

[wanton zephyr]

Or
She knew instinctively that darkness is the opposite of light and is inherently her enemy

[pure inlet]

PK does call Void the power opposed that could have been in a historical sense or he just deduced it

[marble birch]

Still the inclusion of ‘Ancient’ means she knew this thing from way back.

And the Vessels are all relatively new creations by comparison.

So we know she had some kind of squabble with the Abyss and its denizens at some point but she came out the victor at the time and held power.

[blissful crest]

relatively new to whom

we don’t know when the radiance existed in hallownest

[marble birch]

The world at large. Most of them are still only children.

[blissful crest]

This is a gross misunderstanding of vessels

[timber snow]

well not like they’re growing up anytime soon

[marble birch]

Or rather, were children, given most of them are dead.

[blissful crest]

they’re “still only children” because they’re corpses dude

[blissful crest]

Vessels don’t naturally grow

they can’t

[wanton zephyr]

I mean
Sure
She’s lived for a long time
She could know the existence of the massive sea of void right underneath the kingdom she resides in
She knows of the void from the ancient times
Doesn’t really mean she fought or contacted it

[marble birch]

She calls it her enemy, so this implies she has squabbled with it before, though as evidenced by her reign and the once-prosperous Moth Tribe, she seems to have been the victor of that encounter.

[deep schooner]

I really wanna scratch my black egg knowledge itch

How does it work

[wanton zephyr]

Again… she could just inherently know it’s her antithesis, an enemy

[pure inlet]

Probably some sort of AC design but the mechanism is PK made

[near sequoia]

Why do you assume she's talking about void specifically and not the vessels or their father

[marble birch]

The Black Egg is a bizarre construct, seemingly built for the sole purpose of containing the Pure Vessel/Hollow Knight for eternity ad infinitum.

[deep schooner]

Yeah but why does it drain hornets energy

[wanton zephyr]

She’s not a vessel

[timber snow]

bindings in the egg, designed to support vessels but not regular bugs

[marble birch]

Might be part of the arcane seals inside meant to restrain its captive Vessel.

[deep schooner]

And why does that matter?

So vessels dont get draines but normal bugs do?

[wanton zephyr]

I assume it has to do with life or something like that cuz Vessels are dead

[near sequoia]

It might drain soul or something which vessels don't need

[timber snow]

i was about to say that

would be an interesting reason why thk doesn’t use it’s soul spells

besides the missing arm

[wanton zephyr]

They were not alive to be dead if the temple try to drain them

[valid rapids]

Hornet specifically says that the space was built to sustain vessels like tk

Its more likely a defense measure against intruders to incapacitate them

[wanton zephyr]

“Only vessels allowed, every not vessel is an intruder and need to die” - PK, while making the temple or something

[still gulch]

She is an ancient being.
Godseeker literally says he travelled everywhere until he found Hallownest "the land of true gods"

[blissful crest]

2 hour ping replying me for this are you serious

[still gulch]

She also created the moth tribe who would bask in her light and honour it

[still gulch]

Ehh first thing I saw when I entred the chat

[obtuse yacht]

Guys

Y'all noticed these details in the Mantis Lords arena?

[still gulch]

Oh yeah

[obtuse yacht]

Cuz think about it

The Mantis Tribe was at war with Deepnest

[still gulch]

They keep them at bay
"The truce remains. Our vigil holds. The beasts are kept at bay"

[obtuse yacht]

Ohh

Ps ur scared of this guy 🤣

[still gulch]

Kind of crazy to think stalking devouts worship Herrah even though she is referred as a common bug with nothing special

[obtuse yacht]

Fr

🤔

[still gulch]

Seems she is more than a queen

[obtuse yacht]

Lurien lowkey my favorite dreamer

[wanton zephyr]

I mean
She is their queen

[sand stump]

yeah

Herrah is just their queen

[autumn dome]

well, there's like several things

she married with the king of deepnest, I believe?

• the weavers are weavers so they probably did all sorts of things that keep the deepnest residents both loyal and impressedig

[astral stump]

Im the one behind it all btw

[safe prairie]

the man behind the infection

[astral stump]

I made the radiance btw

[half coyote]

Could all these other grimm children be how many times the ritual has been completed??

[wanton zephyr]

Or maybe it’s more copies to give out to bugs for the ritual again if TK failed to grow its grimmchild

[pure inlet]

Completely possible

Or just representative of the fact

[prisma roost]

That one is mine

[loud crater]

Always figured they were just illusions to throw off TK during the fight.

[pseudo lodge]

Maybe Grimm is entirely made of Grimmchildren, and the Child he gives you is a part of him.

[teal obsidian]

Nah hes just bug dracula

[sleek sparrow]

never noticed the traitor lord throne thats actually sick

[half coyote]

Perhaps after NKG fight the heart and all the previous grimms are absorbed onto the grimchild.

[willow basin]

heard the Hornet motif in White Defender and White Palace

so its probably the pale king motif considering hes the only one connected to all of those

and its also in Pale Court ig but thats like probably not a canon track

[marble birch]

The truth is simple. Grimm never grows out of the Grimmchild body. He just colonizes and fuses with several other Grimmchildren to make the ‘larger body’ illusion.

You can see the genuine Grimm when he splits as he’s Staggered, as the original Grimmchild still carries the scarlet flame. After a moment, he re-assembles with the other children to re-create the ‘Troupe Master’ guise.

In essence he’s just a more advanced Massive Moss Charger. He’s a colony of smaller creatures fusing together to make the illusion of a ‘bigger creature.’

[wintry mica]

probably previous victims for all i know

[tribal prairie]

[marble birch]

I think they might be extensions of the original Grimm, the child carrying the flame, as he uses them as other components to fuse with and create the ‘Troupe Master’ outer body.

[safe prairie]

theory, the godseeker is aware of the player's existence
every time you defeat a boss, she stares right into the camera/your soul
if there's a cutscene before a boss fight, she STILL stares into your soul until the actual fight begins and she starts looking at the knight

she also is able to read the knight's thoughts(from her dialogue in p4 before the pure vessel fight), even though the knight should have no thoughts
so are they our thoughts?

[signal marlin]

if this is supposed to be serious - none of that is evidence

[safe prairie]

how so though

[signal marlin]

it doesnt explain why this interpretation is the case as opposed to others

it doesnt bias your claim - it isnt evidentiary

[safe prairie]

what other cases

does she really have any reason to be staring off into space

[signal marlin]

most simply that its an idle pose or acts as staging elements

[signal marlin]

it really isnt an important detail

also there isnt like a camera following you around

[safe prairie]

okay

i stand corrected

[glass swift]

I agree with that

[wooden cosmos]

is wosk cannon

[timber void]

She never really looks at the camera directly, shes either looking at the knight, looking at the higher beings (NKG, pure vessel, radiance) or she is looking up

[wanton zephyr]

I’d sooner believe that when she looks up it’s to transition to the next fight with
Idk
some sort of dream magic

Than 4th wall breaking

[vocal wave]

I have a question

How come the snail shaman that gives us vengeful has mask shards on the stakes outside

[plucky whale]

If dreamers are like keys for the Black Egg seal to open
Why don't they put up a fight ? Like ik they're sleeping, but fight in dream ?

Or is it considered that the bugs around them are the ones that are protecting the dreamers from being approached?

Like the weavers n spiders, Uumuu & Watcher Knights?

They aren't just hostile bugs but actually given jobs to protect those dreams ?

[plucky whale]

VS giving shaman don't have any mask shards...?

[remote bramble]

The bugs before the dreamers are supposed to protect them, and only Lurien would actually oppose the seals being broken and he's just a regular bug with no fighting capabilities

[midnight rampart]

guys i hv a lore proposition

the events of hk were just a 5 y/o's dream

and silksong was a pt 2

[hallow swallow]

hi

[neat kite]

guys is Essence universal part of the world? like Soul and Void are?

[hallow swallow]

no

it's just the thing that powers up the dream nail

cause we only see essence with the interaction of the dream nail

[neat kite]

wdym no?

[hallow swallow]

how so

[neat kite]

but it is part of the world regardless of whether we see it or not

[neat kite]

what did you mean by no?

[hallow swallow]

then what if you try dream nailing an npc

all it does it gives dialogue

[neat kite]

meaning it is part of the world?

[hallow swallow]

i have no idea

[neat kite]

it is just invisible without Dream Nail

[hallow swallow]

like essence idk but the dream nailing obviously is because how does the shamans sense your trying to get into their mind

[neat kite]

Mosskin need it to live, Mothkin can manipulate it, Grimmkin collect it, seems pretty universal to me

[neat kite]

they have powers

[hallow swallow]

no grim kin is a flame and moss kin is infected and moth kin is a moth which is ASSOCIATED with the dream nail

and plus only a select few amount of people can see it

just like with soul

actually nvm not with soul

[neat kite]

Grimmkin are associated with Scarlet Flame which is Nightmare Essence, Mothkin require Unn's dream and essence regardless of being infected, Mothkin have abilities to use it and have Dream Nail as well

[hallow swallow]

wait by mothkin we are referring to the tribe?

or just one person

[neat kite]

Shamans manipulate it, otherwise it is mostly pale higher beings and their ascended bugs and offspring

[hallow swallow]

shamans are powerful because they can harness soul and void

[neat kite]

Tribe did shape Dreams, so yeah i am referring to them

[neat kite]

just Soul, Void isn't something they use regularly

[hallow swallow]

ok so obviously moths can view and use essence

cause they made it

[neat kite]

mosskin too

[hallow swallow]

but how

how can mosskin

[neat kite]

no, they are made from Radiance's Light/Essence/Dreams

[hallow swallow]

ok

and radiance = moth and moth=essence creation

but then again are you referring to the tribe or one person

[neat kite]

they are aware that they need unn's dream/essence to sustain and they are supposed to join unn's dreams

[neat kite]

tribe

[hallow swallow]

oh

[neat kite]

Radiance is essence creation but she is not moth, she is not any species, she is just light

[hallow swallow]

i guess that makes sense?

then why does the game say she's a moth

[neat kite]

Grimm collect Nightmare Essence which is different

[neat kite]

where does game say that?

[hallow swallow]

like from TPK dialogue when obtaining void heart i think

[neat kite]

i don't think it says that

[hallow swallow]

no cost to great

wait no he refers to as the blinding light

so that means if she's not a moth or any tribe just light how does she have a physical form

[neat kite]

she doesn't have physical form, she is in dream realm where nothing is physical, she has metaphysical form so we can attack it

[hallow swallow]

oh

[neat kite]

Essence is part of world most bugs can't see, or control, like with soul

[hallow swallow]

oh

wait

hear me out

then why does the shades in the abyss so vulnerable to dream nailing

[valid rapids]

Because dn is a super bright light and we see with the lighthouse that light can subdue (ununited) void

[hallow swallow]

then how is the knight able to use it even though he is void

[neat kite]

because he has shell that protects his shade

[valid rapids]

The void inside the knight is protected by its shell

[hallow swallow]

ok then tell me this

[valid rapids]

this

[hallow swallow]

why does the lost kin not have a shade