hk-lore

[indigo venture]

Could Radiance tell what was happening in Hallownest through THK?

with THK having world sense and such, could Radiance have been able to see what THK saw?

[blissful crest]

I mean, she wouldn’t need to

she’s in the minds of every infected bug

[indigo venture]

But could she though

[hot lily]

it's not meaningful

[indigo venture]

Fair

[signal marlin]

world sense doesnt mean much especially for radiance

[blissful crest]

She could

Just wouldn’t do much

[pure inlet]

• Hunter talks about the metaphorical stain we leave on the world
• Jiji’s dialogue is very nondescript and mostly focuses on regrets, probably to keep it canonically viable without actually hinting you can respawn
• Colo room isn’t designed to be a shade trap that is gameplay
• He does

There’s too many problems for respawning to work

[celest tartan]

https://youtube.com/shorts/0n-zmga4QTI?si=iytP8nZCr2R83rC2

[indigo venture]

IP grabber?

[celest tartan]

well, this is awkward

[indigo venture]

This is more an SS topic

but regardless, that is TK.

It's just in the same form it takes in DnM

[rugged comet]

Hall of Gods: Knight Ascended

Unlocked:
Void given form.

@megathekindly used /godhome category: Hall of Gods - Bottom row name: Knight Ascended

[celest tartan]

oh ok 😮‍💨

[lunar sand]

Hi. I recently finished the Game and I dont understand the story at all

Like I thought the King and the Hollow Knight were diffenet character

And a lot of things

[near sequoia]

There's more to the game after beating The Hollow Knight fyi, you might just need to explore more to get a grasp on the story

[lunar sand]

Even with a 93% of completion without guide I am really Lost

I search for Lore videos and this people just explain the story. There is a video.where they explain where the Lore its explained?

Like I dont want to know that there was a God month that somehow controls everyone and I need to know what object, what text or what npc explain that and when

[near sequoia]

Mossbag has one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XDiWYFGGqY

There's also a good writeup on this wiki page https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Hallownest

[lunar sand]

Someone knows a Lore video with the sources of the Lore he is talking about?

[near sequoia]

The wiki would definitely be the way to go then, there's sources for all its claims

The NPC that explains the God Moth is Seer since you're wondering

The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light

[red glen]

I find it fascinating that Soul is Pale. we should talk more about that

[hot lily]

yeah, though it's not a primary source and shouldn't be treated as such

[weary abyss]

Hi

[indigo venture]

I mean It may be related to Pale Beings?

Soul seems to be on mostly everyone, but proper usage and manipulation of it has only been showcased by Higher Beings

Something Something Silksong ||Pale Flame||

[hazy temple]

Who's canonically the strongest nailmaster?

[split compass]

Sheo, the gay artist, for those very reasons

[hazy temple]

What about sly?

He's literally master Yoda

[split compass]

you asked about Nailmasters, he leveled up to Nailsage

[hot lily]

Sheo, the guy can fight with paint

[indigo venture]

Sheo is basically a prodigy

[hazy temple]

After the training with the 3 nail master

I wonder how strong is the ghost

[indigo venture]

I mean their probably strong

[hazy temple]

Despite the community treating him like a baby somehow

[indigo venture]

Yeah it's kind of stupid

They're either strong as fuck, A Higher Being, or a Strong as fuck Higher Being

[hazy temple]

Also, is the Ghost vessel immune to the infection?

[indigo venture]

Maybe

we never really see a Vessel (Alive) be infected

[hazy temple]

Because, he seems to be the only one with a strong connection with the void

[indigo venture]

They aren't special

Technically every vessel had the same potential

[hazy temple]

Broken vessel?

Pure vessel

[indigo venture]

I said Alive 😭

PV Isn't really infected

Their status is weird, but different from normal infection

They're just usually called "Infected" for simplicity's sake

[split compass]

THK is infected
they just also have Radiance trapped in there, unlike other infected
the only thing unusual is that Radiance was forced into their mind, rather than going in on her own

[hazy temple]

Besides

Ghost was the only known vessel who defeated the pale court

And I was like: "Yep, this little guy is no joke'

[hot lily]

@glass coyote memer, I wish I could ping all the mods but Discord literally isn't allowing me to do that

[glass coyote]

no memes, this is channel is limited to sincere discussion

also if this wasn't a meme it's still in the wrong channel

[slender kite]

Traitor Lord is kind of a genius and also kind of a dumbass.
“Oh look, something that will make us stronger than ever!”
“Why don’t we lead a revolution and make the mantis tribe even stronger than it already was?!”

Like brother, your sisters were actually right on that one.

[indigo venture]

I'd disagree

[hot lily]

disagree about?

[indigo venture]

THK being infected

[hot lily]

i mean they have mental symptoms not just physical ones

[still gulch]

Tbf we never saw any other vessel get infected

The Radiance might be showing struggle inside his mind

[slender kite]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592273977137692683/1466962558786207804/IMG_2002.gif

[hot lily]

so? what matters is THK in this argument

[still gulch]

Aren't vessels like immune to infection?

[hot lily]

in the sense that they cannot be infected via normal means, yes

however they are not entirely immune from Radiance themselves, which was PK's mistake

[karmic crescent]

I think anybody that has something equivalent to "an idea instilled" is vulnerable to the infection

[still gulch]

I guess so

But does it imply the knight is the most hollow vessel?

[hot lily]

the idea instilled itself isn't what fucked them over, it's their capacity to have one that did

[hot lily]

TK isn't pure and neither is any other Vessel

[still gulch]

Like he has no emotions. He is never seen to hold empathy or remorse.
He apparently has no mind as team cherry changed the statue name from "void given mind" to "void given focus"

Though I don't know about will

[hot lily]

TK absolutely can have emotions, look at many of the scenes throughout the game they're able to take part in
if TK didn't have a mind, they wouldn't be able to use Dreamgate at all given how Seer describes its use

[karmic crescent]

Yea

[still gulch]

Which scenes he has an emotion?

[hot lily]

most blatant example is Winged Nosk in Godhome showing Hornet instead of TK itself

[red glen]

lmao I like how this summarizes the whole discussion bc it's the only actual evidence

[indigo venture]

Their stated to have a Will

[red glen]

also sowy late response

[indigo venture]

like, a lot

[hot lily]

Seer outright says it and so does the game itself

[indigo venture]

Yup

[still gulch]

Makes sense

[indigo venture]

Voidheart, Jinn, Seer

For emotions is the previously exposed Winged Nosk

Trying to argue TK is hollow is a hill not worth dying on

I don't even know how would you defend that hill honestly

[still gulch]

Speaking of that

[hot lily]

people misconstrue being hollow as being pure despite those two things being different

[still gulch]

Did Quirrel actually suicide?

[indigo venture]

Maybe, probably just died

[still gulch]

Isn't being Pure the requirement to become the Hollow Knight?

[indigo venture]

It's basically the same as Pale King of Schrödinger

[karmic crescent]

Being hollow is

[red glen]

based on the file name and the fact that he said abandoning his weapon on this land is basically dying probably yes. but not necessarily suicide

[indigo venture]

Being pure was the requirement for sealing the Radiance. We don't know if a being capable of being "Pure" could even exist

[still gulch]

Pale King is objectively dead though. His corpse is physical.

[hot lily]

yes, however actually being pure and being believed to be pure are 2 different things as well

[indigo venture]

The cause.

I meant the cause

[hot lily]

Suicide, or at least willful death

He died so thoroughly that there's not even a spirit left

[indigo venture]

I guess one could cope with Quirrel not being "Confirmed" dead since no body. But it's the same as arguing as Nailsmith and Sheo aren't gay because it isn't clearly shown

But yeah Quirrel likely just turned to dust or something

[indigo venture]

To be honest Essence Spirits are janky

Dryya didn't leave one, for example

[hot lily]

it's not the same as the latter because the latter has an achievement literally calling them a couple

[indigo venture]

"Witness Quirrel's last moments"

[still gulch]

Yeah but I suppose being Hollow is the same as being Pure. Since the Hollow Knight was referred as "our pure vessel" before being a seal.

[indigo venture]

They were not Pure

A rule of thumb would probably to define what both words mean in the context of the discussion being had

[still gulch]

They aren't for sure

[hot lily]

being hollow is a physical property which the Vessels fulfilled due to how they were made
being pure is a metaphysical property which PK thought Vessels fulfilled when they actually didn't

[indigo venture]

Vessels have no organs

[still gulch]

I get it now.

[indigo venture]

I understand it now

[still gulch]

I doubt vessels even digest.

[indigo venture]

Well no shit

they can rest/sleep

[hot lily]

one is empirical, the other is constructed/declarative

[indigo venture]

But besides that we dunno' if they have any other organic things

Like needing nutrition and such

[hot lily]

he incorrectly assumed that Vessels began as pure only to fail later on, when in reality all of them were flawed intrinsically

[indigo venture]

You just made Intrinsically up

[hot lily]

no that's an actual word

[indigo venture]

What does it mean

[hot lily]

"necessarily"

[indigo venture]

[karmic crescent]

Innately

[indigo venture]

So many people use big words I no like, too hard to understand

[wanton zephyr]

it’s real

[indigo venture]

Get real

But yeah where was I

"Pure" and "Hollow" are so often confused there should be a pin for it atp

Might start putting a definition at the beginning of each discussiong regarding the topic to make sure it isn't messy

But then the issue is if other people agree with the definition or not

[karmic crescent]

I just need to clear up some confusion. The poem in the voidheart scene, it is referring to being pure right? Except for the last part "born of god and void"

[indigo venture]

It's more or so describing the Vessels

Or like, defining The Pure Vessel

I need to re-read it

[rugged comet]

Pale King - General - Pale King Birthplace memory

No cost too great.
No mind to think.
No will to break.
No voice to cry suffering.
Born of God and Void.
You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams.
You are the Vessel.
You are the Hollow Knight.

@megathekindly used /npcs misc name: Pale King category: General dialogue: Pale King Birthplace memory

[still gulch]

I don't think it should because the definition of being pure makes no sense in first place.

[indigo venture]

Not wrong yeah

No real objective answer sadly

[hot lily]

yes

[indigo venture]

Everything regarding what either words mean is silly

[still gulch]

How does Godseeker doesn't know we are on his dreams whereas bardoon, snail shaman and seer knows it?

[indigo venture]

The first thing they do after we enter godhome is call us out

Also I think a better example would be Midwife

They're probably the most random NPC to be able to know they're getting dreamnailed

[wanton zephyr]

Tbf
Pure and Hollow are often used interchangeably by new players cuz when the boss is called “the hollow knight” you would assume what PK said about “purity” is what “hollowness” is defined as, and “purity” as a concept just doesn’t exist at all

Cuz nobody really think about how the vessel is physically empty inside when thinking about all this philosophical stuff

[still gulch]

Dreamnailing godseeker in dream realm I mean

[indigo venture]

They're just high

[indigo venture]

Sometimes the answers are simple

Hollow for vessels mean they don't have innards

[wanton zephyr]

Yes but when you are discussing the overarching lore who thinks about the fact that the vessels don’t have innards…

[indigo venture]

You

[wanton zephyr]

Shut

[indigo venture]

:c

[marble gorge]

yo

[split compass]

yes
this notion that 'hollow' and 'pure' mean different things because the vessels are literally 'hollowed out' is a goofy idea this channel came up with
the title 'Hollow Knight' does have a layered meaning yes, but when people ask if a vessels is hollow, they're asking if they're pure or not

[signal marlin]

goofy...

[split compass]

which is to say, an idea made by goofs

[pure inlet]

I don’t remember why people decided to make that distinction

I think it was sort of a gotcha

Or to avoid those discussions altogether

[split compass]

I think it stemmed from the double meaning of the 'hollow knight' title at first
yes, they are literally hollow (no guts) and they were also intended to be figuratively 'hollow', 'empty', with nothing for the Radiance to manipulate

(yes Pale King, you were very clever)

but then it became what it is now

[past hearth]

Okay fellow brothers and sisters, just HEAR ME OUT. Not saying that he is one, but the Hunter strongly looks like a Weaver. I mean, look at his legs, its the same as Widow's wich is a Weaver. They also have a VERY similar waist and spine, in the way that both looks like Skelletons. But the biggest hint ? The head. The Weavers are the only creatures in HK/SK having six eyes (if we exclude the Shade Lord), and guess who also has six eyes ? The Hunter. Hell, even his hood has the shape of a Weaver helmet/mask. So yeah, maybe, just maybe, that Hunter is actually a Weaver.

Or maybe im just tripping, you tell me.

[remote bramble]

There are other bugs who have 6 eyes, and if hunter were a weaver, he would comment on them and Hornet on the journal

He also only has 4 limbs and is male unlike the weavers

Hunter also has mentioned to have hunted his siblings in the nest when he was young, which would make no sense if he was a weaver

[vale oyster]

Doesn't the skull on lord fool's throne have six eyes as well?

[past hearth]

@remote bramble

So wait a lil, ima try to adress everything

For the Limbs argument, i can see at least 6 since the legs seems to be splitting apart just like Widow's.

For the six eyes, the only other entities with 6 eyes i found were Herrah and the Stalking Devouts. Wich have some connection to the Weavers.

But where i needa say that you are right, is that he is indeed Male unlike all the other Weavers, something i did not think about.

As for the last point, weren't some Weavers born in Hallownest ? Since there was multiple Generations. I know OG Weavers were just elevated bugs by GMS, but since there was multiple generations, wouldn't that mean some could have been made without GMS ? Like, by other Weavers ?

[past hearth]

Lemme check

Indeed, the skull on Lord Fool's throne have six eyes.

[signal marlin]

he isnt a weaver

[rich tusk]

Wait

This might actually be proof

That pale king is alive

So

Lord fool was big colleseum monster, but died to pale wyrm
Then transformed into a smaller one whose face is on the throne, and on the last transformation he is sitting on the throne

3 transformations

While pale king had 2

So

[past hearth]

Pale King is dead as hell broda

[rich tusk]

We are palee kingg

We carry the brand

[signal marlin]

he isnt

[past hearth]

We'll fight for the saw blades

[rich tusk]

We fight for the hollow nest

We honour his name

[rugged comet]

Godseeker - Pantheon of Hallownest - Pale King Encounter

Even long departed, We feel the afterglow of the God-power that sat this throne... It lays heavy upon this kingdom.
That lingering power alone was beacon enough to draw Us to Hallownest. How bright it must have been to mortal bug stood before it.

@mushspore used /npcs quest name: Godseeker category: Pantheon of Hallownest dialogue: Pale King Encounter

[valid rapids]

Long departed, afterglow, lingering power

PK is as dead as a doorknob

@rich tusk

[hazy temple]

What's the rivalry between the radiance and the lord of shades?

[tepid marlin]

Radiance is god of light, Lord of Shades is god of dark. That's pretty much why they hate each other, of course there are more reasons. Also higher beings don't tend to like eachother due to all of them wants to rule everything..

[hazy temple]

Both are a problem I see

[tepid marlin]

yes

[hazy temple]

If the knight becomes the true lord of shades

I presume he would let hallownest safe

[tepid marlin]

spoiler: ||he doesn't||

[signal marlin]

there isnt one

[signal marlin]

that really isnt a characteristic of HBs

[hazy temple]

I maybe have a theory that dream no more + embrace the void together are canon for silksong

[tepid marlin]

All endings are canon

[hazy temple]

If we let the lord of shades win, then Hallownest dies

[tepid marlin]

It kinda is

[tepid marlin]

It is already dead

[signal marlin]

no it doesnt

[signal marlin]

not at all

[tepid marlin]

How so?

[hazy temple]

I believe he's referring before the radiance when the pale king was still ruling

[signal marlin]

the burden of proof is on you, but its largely because thats unsupported and not suggested and really has no relation to what a HB is

[tepid marlin]

Well I don't know what you are disagreeing to 😭

[signal marlin]

the only characteristic mentioned of HBs

Also higher beings don't tend to like eachother due to all of them wants to rule everything

[tepid marlin]

It is true, they just want to rule.

[vale oyster]

Unn, shade lord

[signal marlin]

this doesnt mean anything to the claim. HBs are an ontological classification. they dont have a uniform motive or anything of that nature

[tepid marlin]

Oh yeah, I forgot them...

[viral wharf]

first message

[tepid marlin]

Can you show me some kind of source or proof?

Because I am pretty sure they just like to rule, considering every higher being we saw were ruling over something. Even if it was not intended like Unn, most of them just wants to rule like Grandmother Silk, Pale King, Radiance. I don't know about Shade Lord though, he is pretty strange fellow.

[signal marlin]

again thats what youre supposed to do however yes, TC simply states that HBs are creatures that exist above all others in some capacity

[tepid marlin]

"TC simply states that HBs are creatures that exist above all others in some capacity"
Can you explain?

[signal marlin]

there isnt really much to explain - its a direct quote from TC that doesnt define HB in the way youre describing

[tepid marlin]

But even if they exist above all else in some capacity that doesn't mean they don't want to rule over something?

[signal marlin]

yea that wasnt supposed to show that

hence why it doesnt

[tepid marlin]

Then what?

[valid rapids]

Tbh its only the pale beings who have evil conquerer genes according to Hornet or whatever

[tepid marlin]

Where does she say that?

[valid rapids]

The point is our only definition of a Higher Being has nothing to do with ruling, its about a state of existence where you exist above all mortal bugs

[valid rapids]

Silksong or something

[tepid marlin]

🙏

[signal marlin]

then the idea that HBs want to rule isnt derived from what defines them. it isnt inherent to being a HB or a necessary trait

[tepid marlin]

Fair point

[neat kite]

Crystals in Hollow Knight are weird, they are refracting light, holding energy amplifying focus and also causing dreams if we believe Elina's Journal

Coldshard in Silksong is related to memories and mnemonic forces

[vale oyster]

#sk-lore

[neat kite]

ok true but what about Crystals in Hallownest?

[vale oyster]

The dream part might be related to the radiance

hallownest's crown, and the resting grounds are both near crystal peak

[neat kite]

kinda interesting a moth figure is at top of both crystal mountains

[vale oyster]

The refracting part is normal
Idk about the other 2 abilities

[neat kite]

true, but "There is some strange power hidden in the crystals that grow up there in the peaks. They gleam and glow in the darkness, a bright point of searing heat in each one. They sing too, if you listen. Very softly... "

[neat kite]

i think refraction and resonance and light and song are related generally

[vale oyster]

Are the crystals associated with resonance?

[neat kite]

not really but light is, which in turn is related to refraction

[vale oyster]

Tc explicitly mentioning that the crystals refract light makes me believe more in the theory that the crystals have something to do with the radiance

They have something to do with light, and they cause dreams

Light and dreams are radiance related

[neat kite]

crystals are also said to sing, which is significant i guess or not that much

[upbeat star]

are there theories on how the knight got out of the abyss

[haughty thistle]

What do yall think happened to the god seeker with the delicate flower quest/the white flower

[hazy temple]

I found a curious comment from the godseeker himself after I challenged and slayed radiance

He said something that was a mere reflection of her true power and greatness

So that radiance I thought was just a "weaker" version of the true radiance?

[haughty thistle]

Well I would assume that her form that we see would be her form to fight us, she probably wouldn’t think of us as worthy as a fighter so she probably went weaker during the fight (in THK mind) so when she was taken to godhome she was probably awakened potential in that form specifically, meaning she was just stronger in a weaker form

[blissful crest]

#sk-lore

[umbral nexus]

Maybe not fully confirmed tho

[naive yacht]

question. How and how do trams operate in Hallownest?

[cobalt wasp]

I think they do have some type of normal technology in hallownest

Because there are lights and music inside of it

And fully automatic extending benches and bells in the stagways

So maybe it just wasn’t talked about

[novel flume]

Hey yall

Want a free address

[cobalt wasp]

?

[novel flume]

Made a bet

Said if beat p5 1 try would not leak address

He beat p5 first try

[blissful crest]

why are you asking people if they want to doxx someone

[novel flume]

Idk

[tropic nest]

Hello everyone!
I've created a new tool to help people study the lore of the Hollow Knight games. This app compiles a database of all dialogue/text in the games and lets you browse, filter, and export it however you like. Don't know how to query a database or compile code? No problem! The app is a simple download and does all the work for you. Just tell it what type of text you want and it will retrieve it for you!
You want to see all the dialogue from specific characters? You want all the Dream Nail texts? You want every text that uses the word "pale"? All of these searches can be done in just a few clicks! Additionally, all of the text has been tagged with the topics it relates to. You want all text relating to Vessels or the Hive? Simple!
You can download the app (Windows and Mac) and see how it works here: https://github.com/jdvannest/HollowKnightTextDatabase
The app currently contains all text from Hollow Knight and its DLC. I'm working on importing the text from Silk Song, but there's a loooot more so it's a slow process. A huge thanks to the Hollow Knight Wiki Team and mossbag's complete text document for compiling and organizing all the in game text.
Happy Lore Hunting!

[vale oyster]

W

[red glen]

thanks!!

[hot lily]

pin this

[slender kite]

Ahem, TRAITOR LORD.
A genius, but also a fucking dumbass. He saw the power of the infection and he was like “We can use this to become stronger, and soon rule over all of Hallownest!” Well, it did make him much stronger, but at what cost?

[split compass]

one he was apparently willing to pay
he wouldn't be the only bug in Hallownest willing to part with higher thought
the corpse at the edges of the Howling Wastes seemed to regard their mind as a burden

"...No king... No mind... Release..."

[valid rapids]

I always read that as release from the wyrms thrall

[rugged comet]

Lore Tablet: White Palace - White Palace Throne Room

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

@mushspore used /lore-tablets area: White Palace name: White Palace Throne Room

[valid rapids]

Since the expanded minds yield and devote to him

[slender kite]

WRONG CHAT YOU GOOBER.😂

[obsidian cradle]

f u c k

[ember field]

who are the bugs that take you to beast den and what happens to them after you're out of beast den

[pure inlet]

Unknown

People say they’re finger puppets of one big ventriloquist spider we don’t see

All the same voice and a huge roar

[ember field]

oh

[flint spear]

What happened to the fourth ||Mantis lord|| there's a broken throne in the arena, so I assumed that there was a fourth

[wanton zephyr]

That’s traitor lord

He got exiled for inviting in the infection

[flint spear]

Do I get to fight it later?

[wanton zephyr]

He’s in Queen’s garden

You’ll run into him eventually

[slender kite]

Eventually.

Once you get through his army of traitors.

[flint spear]

Sounds fun

[slender kite]

Mantis Petra ain’t fun.

[flint spear]

Also, I see you're a cup

[slender kite]

I’m a cup.

[slender kite]

True.

[flint spear]

On a scale from, ez af to primal aspid where are they

[slender kite]

Next to soul twister

[flint spear]

[tribal badge]

Cool

[marble birch]

Mantis Petras are annoying, but you can kill them if you’re patient. They’re vulnerable directly after firing their wind-scythe at you.

[dapper gale]

is the ||grub father|| eat his kids

[lunar wing]

He’s a cocoon for their metamorphosis

[dapper gale]

i see

[fading linden]

am i the only person who was heartbroken post hollow knight/radiance fight. i hate the way the hollow knight just silently observes you initially before you break their bindings. dont even GET ME STARTED ON THE FIGHT EITHER.

[wanton zephyr]

I think it’s meant to do that XD

The lore of THK is very depressing

As was the fight

[fading linden]

It was and MAN DOES IT SUCCEED

You never think much of the base game initially until you really start digging and then you end up in rabbit hole after rabbit hole

The game altered my brain chemistry in so many ways its crazy

[indigo venture]

I like to think THK has a sense of honor

Regardless It's odd to me that THK instantly tries to kill itself when TK shows up

Does THK think TK is hollow and capable of taking it's place? Is it just gambling on TK being capable since there aren't any other options?

[pure inlet]

That’s a very good question that we can’t answer

I would say probably because it’s not like it opens itself up for the DN when it stabs itself

Or maybe that’s what it’s trying to do?

[visual parcel]

Honestly THK stabbing themselves could mean many things, the radiance making the vessel weaker in order to use the knight knowing they are not hollow is another theory

[valid rapids]

Could also be a lot more self serving

Like, vessels can feel pain as established by thorns of agony

Vro was chained up unable to do anything to cope with the "ages chained" of suffering from Radiance as well as solitude

[pure inlet]

Well they do care about each other in some way right

TK goes out of its way to slow down and let its big sibling open Rad up

Mush I know it’s meaningless question cause you need it anyway but do you think entering THK’s dream would require ADN

[visual parcel]

Yes, you can alot essence by fighting the dream versions of broken vessel, soul master and false knight

[pure inlet]

No like mechanically

Do pale shells necessitate a stronger dream nail

[visual parcel]

Not really to pale shells. It’s due to easily dream nailing hornet, white lady and the pale kings corpse but dream nailing something like a vessel, especially one placed with a strong seal to contain the radiance would be needed. The same as entering the white palace from the dead kingsmould, the pale king must have used a similar seal to keep his white palace protected in his realm

[pure inlet]

Yeah that’s what I’m wondering

We need the ADN to get WP anyway but without it could we still get into THK’s head

I think you’re right though

[valid rapids]

I dont think thk had any sort of mind shield on the shade. Maybe on its shell, but Hornet bypasses that by prying its shell apart

[hot lily]

it doesn't really matter if it does or not

[copper bay]

Hellooo

[tribal badge]

Helloooo

[opaque obsidian]

helo

[humble current]

How far into the game are you

Also wrong channel

[opaque obsidian]

op mb sorry

i might be a lil blind 🥀

[cunning thunder]

how exactly does the infection manifest itself through bugs wants and their dreams??

[hazy temple]

So.. since the vessels are imbued with void

Why do they need to sleep

Do they eat? Or need so?

[signal nimbus]

Is hornet void?

[robust bone]

Honestly I think that the hollow knight is stabbing himself to help the knight

[signal nimbus]

Like a ,, please end this. replace me i did dad wrong"?

[robust bone]

more like to end his suffering, or to help defeat the Radiance and stop the infection

depends if you're going for sealed siblings or dream no more

[signal nimbus]

I mean he helps in the Finale fight

[signal nimbus]

True

[signal nimbus]

Thought your name was a cult of the lamb ref for a sec

[hazy temple]

Did the pale king see Hornet as a failed vessel or a true daughter?

[ebon patio]

hornet is not a vessel at all

[hazy temple]

Yeah I know, she wasn't made for a vessel

[ebon patio]

either way he didnt give too much attention to hornet

she was mainly raised by the 3 queens

[hazy temple]

I find weird that the pale queen didn't recognise ghost as her son

[ebon patio]

white lady was blind so she couldnt recognize him

[hazy temple]

When I met with her was like: "oh, another vessel"

[ebon patio]

ohh

that

[hazy temple]

Also

Was the king a terrible father figure?

[red glen]

to HK maybe not

but he killed the rest so-

[hazy temple]

I mean

He never truly cared for his sons

He also "cheated" on his own wife

Also talking about the vessels and their family relationships

Was ghost the last vessel born?

[pure inlet]

Unknown

Probably not

[hot lily]

We can't know

[red glen]

extremely unlikely

[marble birch]

I mean he didn’t really expect the things he ‘sired’ in the Abyss to be actual children. Them having minds and wills and feelings wasn’t part of the plan. As far as he was concerned, he was parent to a gaggle of animate objects rather than proper living creatures.

He treats them so coldly because as far as he’s aware they’re barely-animate husks the Void happened to re-animate.

[red glen]

the things inside the eggs were still his living children. they just got killed by the Void very fast

[wanton zephyr]

I mean he was bad for sacrificing his children, but he was not bad for not treating the vessels like children (though I’m pretty sure, despite his efforts to not get attached, he got attached anyway)

He’s a morally grey character, “by all means necessary”

[hot lily]

the purity requirements aren't necessarily literal

[gilded meteor]

why didn't they think to seal the dreamers with the egg alongside the hollow knight? That would basically make the egg impenetrable.

[hazy temple]

I'm curious, what are the concepts of "Hollow" for the pale king?

What are his Requirements about "no voice to cry, no will to follow, no mind to think" related to contain the radiance?

[pure inlet]

They aren’t really literal

But it’s built around how Void works and how it “imprints”

Void had its own fragmented mind but it can be “imprinted” on by Soul or minds and essentially copy them

Like how Kingsmoulds have commands and Collector copies the love key bugs mind

The idea was that if Void killed and animated the fetuses in the eggs before they had time to develop they would essentially be a “blank slate” with infinite unrealized potential

One not literally with no mind or will, but like one blank enough that Radiance couldn’t capitalize on any desire to infect it

[half coyote]

The vessels specifically imprinted on their shells. Their shells have a natural mask and your mask influences your will.

[half coyote]

Pure vessel, maybe at the beginning did not have a will, and that’s why PV was chosen. But at some point, PV did have an idea instilled in their mind. Probably because PK has parental feelings towards PV.

But the vessels def had wills and a mind for the most part. Broken Vessel definitely had a mind because essence and dream variant.

[pure inlet]

Vessels did have minds and wills

The no voice was the only literal one

PK just needed one with a mind and will that wouldn’t be corrupted

[half coyote]

I dont think the void would naturally seek essence beings because it naturally seek to consume Soul. Thats why i think PK needed to instill a will on the vessels with their shell and mask. So that they would want to consume the radiance.

.

Also, why couldn’t PK dump THK into the void sea after stuffing the radiance into THK

[pure inlet]

Well for one the void sea would see THK as a foreign entity and rip it apart releasing Rad

[pure inlet]

Yeah but the idea of a mask identity is metaphorical

PK didn’t put masks on the vessels they were born that way

The presence of the shell did mold their unique mind though

[half coyote]

Yes, natural masks

[half coyote]

Then why do the colloseum bugs act normal even though they are infected?? Because of their masks.

[pure inlet]

Their masks don’t do anything

When we see them in the colosseum floor they’re probably in this state of infection where they’re in a daze

Then when they give into their desires and fight they become fully infected

[half coyote]

Not the same

[pure inlet]

Why not

[half coyote]

They just chill here even though they are infected. Ones having a soak in a hot tub

[pure inlet]

But there’s no difference between them physically

They still have the masks on in the colo where they fight to kill you

Masks aren’t literally significant

[half coyote]

Play silksong if you havent

[pure inlet]

What do you mean

Mask discussions are built around metaphorical themes of identity and what you inherit and retain

There’s no character like masks literally do this and that

[wanton zephyr]

The masks dont make them immune to infection or act normally despite infection

[half coyote]

They literally do, though in the Colosseum

[pure inlet]

The guys still fighting you are wearing the same mask

[half coyote]

Yeah, they don’t take off the mask. Why would they take off the mask?

[pure inlet]

I don’t think there’s evidence that Colo masks do anything

[half coyote]

Other than it’s not only other society, besides the mantis sometimes that don’t immediately start trying to kill you when they see you.

[wanton zephyr]

Those aren’t infected

[pure inlet]

Wdym

Yeah

And you defeated their lords they respect you

[wanton zephyr]

The mantis with mantis lords have closed off from the world long ago

They resisted the infection

With their strong will

[half coyote]

I know they aren’t infected. That wasn’t my point.

[pure inlet]

...No more will fall...No more outcast...

I forgot about this dialogue

Do they feel bad for the traitors

[half coyote]

Anyways, I’m in the middle of work in a manufacturing department. I gotta go.

[brittle cave]

https://tenor.com/view/мила-gif-10273660527026522841

[oak pewter]

remeember when knight said "its knightin time", then he knighted all over the place

[indigo venture]

I dunno' about this one honestly, sounds kind of silly

The reason Radiance is forcing THK to fight TK, is to kill it, so they can escape

If Radiance is also forcing THK To kill itself, then it's kind of pointless, since TK will just seal them again as soon as THK dies.

For me the plan goes like this, Kill The Knight > Force THK To kill itself > Radiance is Free > Profit

[visual parcel]

True, I hadn’t really thought about that, the radiance has been trying to kill the knight many times in the game. Like with certain bosses and npcs

[indigo venture]

Myla

[visual parcel]

To weaken the vessel while fighting the knight wouldn’t make sense unless the hollow knight Had some control

[visual parcel]

True, her dream nail dialogue was such a cool hidden detail

[abstract turret]

Guys

I play hk in school

[indigo venture]

Another question I had

What's up with the Grubs and their relationship to songs/music?

They are capable of making charms out of songs, like the weavers and Weaversong.

Is it ever explained? I don't recall it being explained, so I figured I may as well ask

[outer sky]

i think thk is fighting the radiance, who is trying to kill the knight, but thk doesn’t want to kill the knight

[grave halo]

they arent infected

if they are then why arent them being hostile

[forest hearth]

they are

[runic igloo]

Did the Radiance have a physical body before being forgotten?

[near sequoia]

The reason she didn't want to be forgotten was because that's practically death in the dream realm so no

[hot lily]

they are

[runic igloo]

Then how did she manage to create the moth tribe before being known?

It's like the chicken and the egg

[runic igloo]

Forgot to @

[dim pelican]

What happens to a dream spirit after their Essence has been absorbed?

[runic igloo]

I think they still exist as the essence just separated

[dim pelican]

But are they actually the consciousness of the bug who died?

[runic igloo]

I believe yes

[dim pelican]

So, their consciousness is trapped in the dream nail?

[runic igloo]

Yeah

[near sequoia]

yeah its kinda unknown

Seer describes Radiance as a light similar to essence in that spiel though which means she was still probably a dream entity

[dim pelican]

Question. Are dream spirits the actual consciousness of the deceased, what happens to them when their essence is absorbed?

[near sequoia]

uhh

iirc Seer describes them as essence taking the form of the deceased which would imply they are not the same entity

[dim pelican]

Okay.

[near sequoia]

Sometimes dreams take the shape of those who have passed away. Such dreams are bountiful sources of Essence!

You should search carefully near graves and other monuments. Why, I believe I saw an interesting gravestone here in the Resting Grounds.
If you do decide to disturb those dreams though, be prepared for a fight...

[lusty condor]

.

[half coyote]

They leak orange infection when hit. Also, the godtamers beast shoots out infection blobs at you.

Also, for future refrence, the helmets they have count as masks -

[hot lily]

masks are irrelevant to the discussion

[half coyote]

Foolish child, the masks are the reason the collo bugs still have any amount of control over themselves.

[sand stump]

Nah those lads aren't the infected ones,
They all give into the infection for strength and stuff, but those lads haven't done it yet

[half coyote]

I’m about to prove to you in a second they are infected. But this is a hint from team cherry that the masks serve another purpose besides looks.

[wanton zephyr]

It’s a question of practicality and the answer is no

Why would that imply masks serve another purpose

[half coyote]

Infected

[sand stump]

Read my message again

[sand stump]

The mask is for extra protection

[half coyote]

But you agree, they are infected?? And without losing their minds??

[wanton zephyr]

They just said in the other message that they believe the dudes chilling arent infected but the ones fighting in the ring are

[half coyote]

When they go into the arena, they become fully infected?? Thats wierd

[sand stump]

No they just give into the infection when they go in

[wanton zephyr]

More like
They give into the infection to have strength to fight in the arena

[sand stump]

yeah

[half coyote]

It makes more sense that they always have control over their mind because their mask grants them enough will to direct what they want.

[sand stump]

How?

The infection naturally grants strength and in early stages you're able to keep a bit of your will

[wanton zephyr]

So the infected crossroads bugs just have masks for fun cuz those are very infected and very mindless

[half coyote]

Their mask is a natural mask. Also, they have ascended minds from PK. Almost synthetic minds.

[sand stump]

Almost all bugs bar a few have minds from PK

[wanton zephyr]

Y know except for the ones already have a civilization before he came

Like mosskins and mantis and whatnot

[half coyote]

There’s nothing to suggest the bugs we know as husks were more than farm animal level intelligence before PK came.

[wanton zephyr]

Never said that

[half coyote]

Wasn’t saying you did

Building on what you said

I just think you have to take into account that the mask makers are probably in every known kingdom. I would say that’s a hint that masks are actually important to a bug.

[hot lily]

yes and masks aren't what gives the uplifting effect, that's the beacon itself

[half coyote]

I wasn’t saying that the husk’s mask gave them a raised intelligence.

I’m saying that the Colosseum bugs masks do make them able to resist the infection at the cost of them fighting in the Colosseum

[wanton zephyr]

Masks are there to give bugs identity, yes, but doubtful it plays any role in preventing the infection

[half coyote]

There hasn’t been a clear explanation why the infected Colosseum bugs are able to control themselves at all otherwise.

[wanton zephyr]

We also don’t know if they are all infected

[half coyote]

basically Every single bug under dirt mouth is why wouldn’t they?

[sand stump]

They aren't really able to control themselves though
The Radiance wants them to fight you and they also want to fight for glory

its a mutual desire

Plus, infected bugs are left off doing the last things they were doing
For example in Crystal Peaks the bugs are still mining

[wanton zephyr]

Cuz the infection is not a transmittable disease, it’s highly individualistic and depends on a bug’s will to resist it?

[half coyote]

New bugs are always coming to the Colosseum somehow also.

[sand stump]

that doesn't really mean much

Its a place where people go to fight for glory

obviously people would want to go there if they wish for glory

Tiso is an example

plus they capture and bring over different beasts

[half coyote]

Also, how are these bugs not infected? The ones that are in the crossroads spring.

[sand stump]

Because they haven't given into the infection

[wanton zephyr]

Again it’s an individual thing

[sand stump]

The infection is based on temptation and trickery
If you can't be tricked and don't give into temptation then you can't be infected

Because the Radiance needs you to let her into your mind in order to infect you

[half coyote]

So if a Colosseum bug was to win. Would they un infect themselves? With your logic.

[wanton zephyr]

No they are just permanently infected once they gave in

[half coyote]

Why would they willingly give if they could not ungiven?

[wanton zephyr]

Same reason traitor lord did

They want that power

[half coyote]

Why give bug mask then?

[sand stump]

So it puts up a better/longer fight to watch

[half coyote]

Clearly there is a discrepancy in what masks do. I GTG but I hope you figure it out.

[pure inlet]

Because a bug born to fight will be better at fighting if it doesn’t have a wide open face

[runic igloo]

It's not temptation, as many who are infected never gave in they were just defeated when the Radiance appeared in their dreams, to be infected you must be able to dream (Void being formless and dreamless making it perfect for containment) and tying in to masks masks give form, and with form comes dreams as seen with THK

[marble birch]

The masks are mostly a form of identity used by Bugs across the game. The Mask Maker constructs all of the Bugs’ masks we see.

[runic igloo]

And I personally think the bugs chilling in the colosseum springs are uninfected (which is why they're uncaged) and when inevitably the Radiance comes around to them, they become perfect obstacles for the colosseum (which will then cage them)

[runic igloo]

Yeah and with this identity comes a thought instilled, a dream

[runic igloo]

The reason the pale beings are capable of avoiding the infection is their own strength inside dreams

[marble birch]

Not really. The masks are important but not the source of a Bugs’ mind. That’s just an inherent part of being a living creature.

[runic igloo]

Not the source of the mind, but still identity, the source of the mind always came from higher beings

[marble birch]

Even things without masks are still able to be Infected, after all. I.E. the Mawleks and Shadow Creepers, the Soul Twisters, et cetera.

[marble birch]

Not entirely. The Bugs had some level of mind even before the Pale Beings showed up, primitive and feral as they may have been, as evidenced by the Moth Tribe during Radiance’ era, and the Old Bugs who worshipped the Void before even that.

[runic igloo]

Sentience

[marble birch]

Oh also the living clumps of vegetation worshipping Unn.

[runic igloo]

Unn is a higher being, no?

[marble birch]

Sentience is a unique gift offered by the Pale King/Wyrm. True mental evolution didn’t come around until he entered the picture. He brought forth logic and critical thinking.

[wanton zephyr]

Well, sentience doesn't always come from a higher being

As far as im concerned, the Mantis has been sentient for a long time, and so were the bees

[marble birch]

Well true but they’re still mostly feral and primitive. True, genuine logic and the mental capacity to evolve weren’t introduced until the Wyrm tunneled his way in.

[runic igloo]

The mantis tribe made whole mechanisms

That's got to be logic

[marble birch]

Primitive wooden structures and a few bone levers, yes. The Wyrm gave Bugs more of a capacity to truly invent and innovate, to evolve beyond such things.

Hell it’s entirely possible the Mantises began inventing such structures because the Wyrm showed up and their minds expanded beyond their primitive nature.

[wanton zephyr]

PK didn't give mantis, bees, mosskins, or anyone whose borders he made an effort to respect a mind. They were there before he was

[vale oyster]

Skong proves that Weavers didnt get elevated by pk

[runic igloo]

Primitive? Gangalang those levers and doors are not easy to make

[marble birch]

True but again he’s the source of them gaining true, honest intelligence and not just primitive instinct. He is the reason most factions evolved beyond just being feral animals.

[wanton zephyr]

There's no evidence for that

[runic igloo]

Go outside collect sticks, and attempt to make a door activated by a lever

[marble birch]

There’s quite a lot of lore depicting the Pale King as giver of intelligence and mind. If you leave Hallownest, the ‘precious mind’ given by the Wyrm is lost, reducing Bugs back to their feral state.

[runic igloo]

Much less one that goes up

[runic igloo]

What about GMS

Gave weavers sentience

[wanton zephyr]

He is the giver of sentience to the bugs of his kingdom, not any of the tribes that borders it

[marble birch]

She seems capable of similar evolutionary feats as the Wyrm, yeah. She took feral Bugs and basically injected higher forms of thought into them, albeit against their will.

[runic igloo]

So we've established other higher beings have the capability, so why should all bugs in Hallownest have gotten their sentience from PK

[hot lily]

False

[marble birch]

I mean pretty sure the encumbrance of his power is the totality of Hallownest itself, though yeah his power may be deferred due to the territory lines of other Gods.

I.E. Unn and whatever weird figure rules the Mushrooms.

[hot lily]

there are explicit examples of beings who are sapient who are not from Hallownest and don't rely on PK's beacon

[runic igloo]

As there is no proof that PK gave mantises minds

[marble birch]

Well yeah sapience existed but not genuine intelligence. There’s a clear distinction drawn there.

[runic igloo]

What's the distinction

[hot lily]

Semantics, and even in that case it's still false

[wanton zephyr]

Also, on the question of mantises

[marble birch]

There is evidence he’s been in contact and attempted diplomacy with them, though.

[wanton zephyr]

Wanderer's Journal p 60

[hot lily]

I was gonna quote this as a counterexample so thanks

[wanton zephyr]

Again, they predate the kingdom of hallownest that the wyrm built

[runic igloo]

Diplomacy means they had an established nation, meaning they had intelligence before

[wanton zephyr]

Sorry i had to go find the wanderer's journal so it took a minute

[marble birch]

Eh somewhat. They’re still not as smart as, say, Hallownest Bugs.

[runic igloo]

Look at this again @marble birch

[vale oyster]

They made lever based doors

[hot lily]

they still possessed genuine intelligence without PK's beacon

[narrow thistle]

dude this is the dumbest fucking conversation ever

[wanton zephyr]

This entire debate about mantis ends with this image pls just read what it says

[hot lily]

no it's not there's been far worse here

[marble birch]

I mean they made things sure but like.

[wanton zephyr]

first the doors and levers are the examples now it's not?

[narrow thistle]

weavers are not hallownest bugs and they're stated to be the smartest group in hallownest

[marble birch]

Still nothing compared to the crazy stuff the Wyrm’s people proved capable of. They made full-blown Mining Golems back in their prime.

[narrow thistle]

your argument is dead now

[runic igloo]

Also please make the distinction between sapience and "genuine intelligence" @marble birch

[hot lily]

That's not relevant to your initial claim

[narrow thistle]

congrats

[hot lily]

What matters is that they possessed intelligence, without said intelligence being sourced from PK's beacon

[wanton zephyr]

Just out here calling the mantises dumb when they are merely traditional and reject PK's techs is crazy...

[vale oyster]

So the engineers of hallownest were smarter than the mantises

This doesn't mean that the mantises were not sapient or not intelligent

[marble birch]

Sapience means you can think, albeit on a mostly instinct-driven capacity, and not much beyond basic thoughts. It’s a step above being feral but a step below true awareness.

[wanton zephyr]

I feel like we are just making things up now

[hot lily]

this isn't a canonically coherent definition

[runic igloo]

That's not what sapience means, sapience means the ability to understand things

[marble birch]

I never said they weren’t sapient. They have some level of functional mind and thought but still not quite to the point of being a learned figure like the Hallownest Bugs became.

[pale zenith]

Stupid question: How can the Knight read? Like How did they learn that? Are they born knowing How to read?

[hot lily]

canonically, there is a distinction between beings who operate solely upon instinct, and those who have higher thought

[runic igloo]

My brosky from another mosky you're just wrong

[marble birch]

That is a good question. I’ve not the slightest clue.

[vale oyster]

Born with that capability I guess

[hot lily]

Quirrel outright says this in the prequel comic

[hot lily]

Likely an inherent ability, given that they're able to read lore tablets and understand language despite...being a mind part void part deceased infant

[vale oyster]

There is another example of a newborn being able to talk in a language

Skong spoilers: ||broodling||

[marble birch]

Although I think it is neat that the Soul Sanctum kind of shows what happened when the Hallownest Bugs allowed their heightened intellect to go a step too far and it went to their heads.

[hot lily]

that isn't a matter of intellect, it was a matter of Radiance blackmailing the Scholars with a false cure for Infection

which is again, irrelevant

[runic igloo]

This is just personal belief but I don't think that they thought they were smarter than everyone, I think they wanted to rival the power of PK

[pale zenith]

Actually, is There any bug in all of the two games that cannot read? (Not counting more "animal" bugs) Bc If not, then Reading my be just default skill for the universe of hollow knight

[marble birch]

I know but still. They achieved Magic and sort of went drunk with the power.

[hot lily]

i don't actually know

[narrow thistle]

the snail shamans had the same power for generations and didn't go mad with power

[vale oyster]

Hornet cant speak the language of ||skarrs||
And the knight can't speak mr mushroom's language
so I guess there are multiple languages in this world

[hot lily]

So did a lot of other people who thought they understood how Infection worked when they actually didn't

[marble birch]

True the Soul Master/Tyrant made it clear he resented the Wyrm for denying his experiments any support.

[wanton zephyr]

Or maybe the knight canonically cant read and it's just there for player experience....

[runic igloo]

Well many bugs in real life communicate with different pheromones, so that might be how it works

[hot lily]

but to return to the original point, learned individuals exist without PK's beacon's effects, within and beyond Hallownest

[runic igloo]

Not counting the Knight they aren't a bug

[marble birch]

The Snail Shamans are eccentric, definitely. We still know so little about them other than a lot of them died in their domains.

[hot lily]

the player isn't a canonical entity

[runic igloo]

The Knight totally is

[wanton zephyr]

Ik but im saying maybe the texts being readable is for gameplay purposes and TK didn't actually read them

[hot lily]

not disagreeing there, TK can understand language

[runic igloo]

Mb gng

[hot lily]

if TK couldn't read they would have no way of filling out maps

[wanton zephyr]

Y know what fair

[pale zenith]

Huh thats true, i Just now realised the skarr have no written text anywhere, maybe TC didnt think of putting any or the skarr had no need for literature bruh

[vale oyster]

I think the tribe name needs to be spoiler marked

[runic igloo]

Yeah I think different types of bugs are born with specific pheromones and that is interpreted as language

[pale zenith]

True but i dont know How to that :(

[runic igloo]

No evidence, just vibes

[hot lily]

|| around text

[vale oyster]

||But hornet has learned the language of mr mushroom||
You cant learn pheromones (I think)

[red glen]

hi

I wonder if PK (||GMS too with pharlids at least||) gives higher thought to bugs bc of his connection to Soul by modifying its ||crest||
||a bug's personality is deeply tied to its crest which is an imprint on the soul||. and pale higher are capable of manipulating soul. ||also Ancient Masks in Silksong are said to be made of pale ore||. it's possible that the personality-altering masks of the Mask Maker also use pale ore to modify a bug's crest

theory

[runic igloo]

Pale beings might be an exception, but I don't know

[wanton zephyr]

spoiler tag pls

[pale zenith]

|aha i see| hopefully

No i dont

[wanton zephyr]

Those are silksong terms

[narrow thistle]

you need 2

of them

[hot lily]

we don't know if ||crests|| exist for everyone, or if they do, if they can be modified by said person

[pale zenith]

||hopefully now i see|| maybe now

Aha yes thank you all

[hot lily]

also SS stuff needs to go in #sk-lore

[red glen]

yeah sorry

[vale oyster]

||karmelita speaks an additional language, along with the language of skarrs||

[red glen]

I just thought it was relevant for both games so I wasn't sure whether to post it here or there

[wanton zephyr]

skong lore is the channel for both games

[runic igloo]

I'm wrong then but it's still a cool thought I think

[red glen]

oh

[red glen]

anyway last thought about this. I'm pretty sure ||Eva|| said everyone has it

[hot lily]

give a source in the other channel

[red glen]

ok!

[vale oyster]

It would have been a cool theory if true

[runic igloo]

Moving on is godhome canon?

[vale oyster]

Godseeker mode or godhome itself?

[runic igloo]

Godhome itself

[vale oyster]

Godhome itself shouldn't be not canon

They made a bunch of godhome lore

[hot lily]

Yes?

[wanton zephyr]

Godhome is indeed a place

[hot lily]

it's part of the world and is accessed in a diegetic fashion, it's not like Eternal Ordeal

[runic igloo]

Okie dokie

[hot lily]

and Godseeker Mode is also canon but only to ETV and perhaps also DF

[red glen]

hey Serrara I do not know how to use the bot for quotes can I DM you a screenshot of the wiki 😭

[hot lily]

sure

[round pumice]

Why does the game start al the way up in kingspass (or howling cliffs cause you jump down there) while the knight crawled its way out of the abyss why (in lore) does he then first go to the other side of the world?

[split compass]

it's a mystery!

even TC admitted they don't know how TK got there

[knotty depot]

is there lore about how the white lady came about in hallownest

we know that the pale king came to this kingdom as a wyrm and shed his previous form

how and when did white lady arrive though

also hallownest seems to be pretty king-centric despite white lady also being a pale being, i wonder what's up with that. didnt they work together to 'give bugs mind' or whatever

[paper valley]

Shes locking herself up by the time the player finds her, so it would be logical to conclude that during the standing of hallownest, she was an extreme recluse, and not a well known public figure

Other than that i wouldnt know

[paper valley]

"i really liked reze, why would the author do this?"

[knotty depot]

makes sense given her form. then the only remaining question is how she arrived to hallownest

[paper valley]

Though it is implied that the knight left for a period of time and then came back to hallownest, due to the hollow knight losing control over the radiance. The reason they dont go through greenpath initially is likely due to them not having the dash ability necessary to get in there. Which is interesting, due to the fact that we find a vessel IN greenpath with the aformentioned ability, implying that they took that route instead, was immediately caught by hornet, and was killed

[knotty depot]

also makes me wonder what she did inside the palace all those years. Paperwork? It's not like they had a child before the vessels or anything.

[paper valley]

Ate buzzsaws and sat in chair

[knotty depot]

the knight probably saw that its intended role was already fulfilled, thus left hallownest, and came back when its role had to be filled yet again

[knotty depot]

that's why pale king made so many buzzsaws... what a great husband!

[paper valley]

"rate my relationship, ignore the herra the beast"

[knotty depot]

white lady is into his dalliance anyway

👀

she is canonically kinda freaky though

[hot lily]

We don't know why TK left

[odd coral]

I always thought knight found other way to leave abyss(since probably after king chose vessel, he closed abyss doors shut) and then took a very long walk around to reach hollownest

[wanton zephyr]

Nah it just had a mild memory loss after leaving hallownest and didnt come back until it heard radiance’s roar

[hazy sigil]

Wait ima take a shot in the dark what if knight somehow was 3d an when the games started it was 2d or abys portals exist ig but that like the biggest shot in the dark

[tardy wyvern]

huh

[sand stump]

The game is just 2d the world is 3d

[red glen]

TK prolly left through Deepnest and then crawled up and out of the Kingdom. Deepnest is left of the Abyss. the Sharp Shadow charm area shows that the Void is close enough to affect the place (so there's probably a hidden path). and the Nosk arena is the second place in the game with the most dead vessels so Nosk probably hunted them as they escaped. yes this reasoning is all from a mossbag video. but I think it makes the most sense

[grave halo]

oh ok

[deep sage]

Hey y’all. I’ve finished the game for the first time till the true ending. Unfortunately I haven’t fully understand the lore (idk if it’s because I’m dumb or the lore is just that complex), hence I’m going to restart from the beginning for the sake of lore. Do you all have any tips to make it easier?

[grave halo]

wiki

[livid lotus]

What do you know about mossbag

[deep sage]

What’s a mossbag

[grave halo]

does anyone know about the dreams heild room

[split compass]

i do

it's great

[strong laurel]

such BLASPHEMY

He has hk lore kids i would recommend watching

*vids

I'm stupid my god

[deep sage]

But i’d like to understand the lore on my own tho

[split compass]

if you're lore hunting, check the hunter's journal and use the dream nail on everything

[strong laurel]

Oh, then wander around and put the lore together yourself

[split compass]

there's all kinds of hidden lore and it's the best

[deep sage]

Literally everything, including bosses?

[split compass]

especially bosses

[brittle cave]

I know that the hk world is populated by bugs, but it would be cool if there was a type of dragon species in hollow knight. Because knights fight dragons in fairy tales so it would be epic if the knight had a boss fight against a dragon.

[deep sage]

What about the stones that have text saying “these words are for you alone”? Do i need to write them up or something

[split compass]

I mean, you can take notes if you want

[strong laurel]

Um, I mean, there kinda is

[brittle cave]

Who

[strong laurel]

Pale king, he's a wyrm, a type of dragon

[deep sage]

Is it important tho

[strong laurel]

Trust us with your hollow knight lore

[brittle cave]

I forgot about that, but he doesn’t really look like one. I mean like an actual dragon like creature with wings.

[split compass]

it's part of the lore - some lore is less important than others
those stones were written by the authority ruling Hallownest and has various implications, it's more important than some signs you can find

[brittle cave]

Something like a void dragon

[strong laurel]

Maybe the bird thing on mount fay?

I hightly doubt that counts

[deep sage]

Alright alright, so important things to do are dream nailing everything and taking notes on the stones’ text. Got it

[brittle cave]

Nah

[strong laurel]

Indeed

[strong laurel]

Oh, oh well

[deep sage]

Any other important thing I need to do?

[brittle cave]

Hollow dragon

[strong laurel]

I'm so mature

Lol

[brittle cave]

Tell me something I don’t know

A fun fact about the lore

[strong laurel]

Hmm... the white lady has a hard time seeing so if you walk upto her with defenders crest she thinks your dung defender

[craggy crane]

What the actual hell is up with the distant villagers? They appear once to trick the Knight and never appear again, leaving their masks and cloaks behind

The way they’re arranged, the fact that there’s eight of them, the way they move to converge on the knight reminds me heavily of a spider’s legs and the way it moves to cocoon its prey

[mellow spindle]

so if you smell like pure unfettered ass she'll think that your dung defender?

[strong laurel]

Yes

[craggy crane]

I’d theorize they were unseen uninfected Nosks guarding the place, but honestly. Knowing how they’re arranged and how unnaturally they move. It feels more like they’re puppets being moved/controlled by Herrah herself? Which. Can Dreamers even do that? Would Herrah even be willing to do that, knowing the history of the Weavers?

[sand mirage]

Hey, here’s a line of questioning

How much do you think any bugs outside the immediate sphere of like, the little ghost and the moth seer might have really known about the radiance?

I’m thinking about hornet in particular

like do you think that in all her time guarding Hallownest, she ever found the old statue of the radiance or was taught about why any of the infection was happening or anything of that sort

[grave halo]

if you dreamnail the stone carving of the dream nail, itll have some text

[pure inlet]

A handful did

Ogrim did as he knows about the Vessel project and describes rad as a formless enemy

So all the knights did

Hornet wonders if we can achieve an “impossible thing”

Bardoon knows about her too

[sand mirage]

I was thinking along those lines, yeah, but I suppose I’m being conservative

[real forge]

Is it ever said if White Lady ruled anything before Pale King arrived?

Or anything about her at all before his arrival

[split compass]

yeah, it's like what I was saying earlier
dreamnail everything

[lofty blaze]

The radiance fight made me realise something

Whenever the knight falls into a bottomless pit, it doesn't just respawn in a certain spot for no reason

[sand stump]

No, I don't think so

[lofty blaze]

the void itself is bringing it back up

[sand stump]

Interesting

I never thought of it like that

makes sense

[sand mirage]

yo dawg we heard you liked dream nailing, so we put dream nail in your dream nail so you can lore while you lore

[split compass]

i wish you could dreamnail the dreamnail, that'd be pretty great

the whole world disappears into a lore hole

[lofty blaze]

It could also be why the knight's shade never goes to the abyss like the others did whenever it dies in-game. the void is rejecting it because it has unfinished business on the surface, but when the knight sees its origins and defeats the radiance, the void finally accepts it

[sand stump]

Nah respawn isn't canon

[lofty blaze]

Oof

still a cool interpretation imo

[rugged wharf]

Guys

Mr mushroom is black

On the inside

Hes also a dragon

[indigo venture]

I mean TK could be commanding it to do that, yeah

TK can do a lot of stuff with Void

[opaque abyss]

Guys, I've got a theory

What if

Shamans are the members of the ancient civilization

[blissful crest]

No?

They respawn because its a video game mechanic

that only works for a single instance of bottomless pits

[pure inlet]

People have been saying this since the dawn of time and it’s always been interesting but not a ton of evidence

[opaque abyss]

I've never seen anything about that

[sand stump]

I mean, in the instanct with the Radiance fights it does actually work quite well. But I do agree in others it does not work that way

[blissful crest]

it’s a fairly common theory but doesn’t have much merit with the snail shaman’s dialogue

[sand stump]

The Ancient Civilization was said to manipulate the Void and worship it,
The Shamans do no such thing, the most we've gotten is them knowing about it [Minor Skong Spoiler] ||and/or researching it||

The Shamans major in Soul magic moreso than Void Magic

[opaque abyss]

Yeah, but (Major skong spoiler warning) ||They always know about the abyss, know how to create traps that are linked to the abyss, seem to be kind of made of void and die when you get the flower||

[blissful crest]

|| they always know about the abyss isn’t true, they just have fascination with the substance. They also aren’t made of void, and they die when you obtain the flower because the spell required immense prowess and it sapped all of their soul||

[opaque abyss]

||Alright, about them not being of void, that was a long shot, but I don't think they die because of the spell, that doesn't feel right||

[blissful crest]

it is quite literally what happened

[sand stump]

||I think they actually say that it might kill them, due to it needing such insane amounts of soul. Plus them dying by you getting the flower makes even less sense||

[pure inlet]

||They serve as an additional source of power||

Like how we get our void spells

They’re a catalyst

[opaque abyss]

||I just checked, they never say anything like this||

[sand stump]

Alright then I was wrong about what they said
||But it still doesn't make sense for them to just die when you get the flower||

[indigo venture]

The "Void" spells are not from the Shamans themselves, they serve as a boost for TK to infuse the already learnt spells with their own void

that is stated directly stated in-game by the Shaman in HK

Basically what AppleEgg said

I just saw their message, mb

[opaque abyss]

||Are we 100% sure that they aren't even just partially made of void tho? I don't really remember that being stated or implied||

[indigo venture]

How would that even work

[opaque abyss]

Idk, they do experiments all the time

[indigo venture]

How is one like, 98% Percent Void

Is that even a thing?

[sand stump]

No they don't

[indigo venture]

Where is this stated?

[sand mirage]

I could see the Shamans as having practices that stem from the abyss civilization originally, but not like a 1:1

[indigo venture]

||They have a fascination with the thing, sure, but that's just reaching||

[opaque abyss]

Was just saying this, didn't really mean it, sorry

[indigo venture]

[opaque abyss]

||Do we have anything tho that could debunk that they are made of void?||

[indigo venture]

If it isn't directly related to Silksong you don't need to spoil

All I can really think of rn is the Shaman's comment about "One my kind never thought to look"

[rugged comet]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@megathekindly used /npcs quest name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[indigo venture]

But like I think there's argument against it too

Not too sure

[blissful crest]

if you don’t have proof they are void you can’t assert that they are

[split compass]

they don't recognize the Abyss Shriek spell, a Void-spell made by the Ancient Civilization

they also seem pretty surprised when TK Void-ifies their Vengeful Spirit spell

[opaque abyss]

I'm not saying that they are, I'm only saying a possibility

[blissful crest]

silksong spoilers || the bell hermit also directly says their power’s all of soul||

it’s not a possibility

[indigo venture]

This isn't really an argument

[opaque abyss]

I was in fact trying to understand if we can debunk that

[wanton zephyr]

I think ur supposed to assume all bugs are normal until proven otherwise

[split compass]

their magic is Soul-based, and they can seemingly call forth the Void with certain spells, but they aren't Void beings themselves
steel vassals also do something similar

[indigo venture]

What's a Steel Vassal

Not wrong though

[wanton zephyr]

What, indeed

maybe it's a steel soul specific thing i've never played steel soul to know

[split compass]

guys like Jiji

[indigo venture]

You've never heard of the secret NPC Steel Soul Jinn? Exclusive to Steel Soul Mode?

(Real)

[indigo venture]

Jiji does have quite the knowledge of Void it seems

Maybe because of whatever the Masters are

[sand stump]

Doesn't Jiji just talk about remnants left behind on the plane or something along those lines?

[indigo venture]

They are cryptic, yeah

[wanton zephyr]

Dark stains somewhere

[signal iron]

Can we have a serious conversation about how the economy of Hallownest was able to sustain itself when the monarch that once ruled Hallownest, and the creator of the currency, was dead?

[indigo venture]

It's a tasty currency

[signal iron]

wat.

[indigo venture]

Eating

[signal iron]

Never was it mentioned that Geo was food!

[blissful crest]

people still use it

There’s no convo to be had

[signal iron]

But why? How? There was no government?!

[blissful crest]

people use money so money has value

[signal iron]

And in theory, everyone should be in poverty because there is no legal source of income other than shop keeping. Except they never restock!!!

So in theory, there's no use for money aside from giving it to someone else! And since nothing ever restocked, eventually there's no more income and no more stuff to buy and you have useless pieces of metal

So excuse me for questioning that.

[indigo venture]

Why the "!"

[signal iron]

I like emphasis, okay?!

[blissful crest]

shopkeeps are the only people you buy from

[signal iron]

Why do they need the Geo?! There's no taxes! No rent! It's useless!!!

They should've gotten rid of the concept as soon as the king died.

[sand stump]

Greed, its shiny, why not?, why should they go into chaos?, its pretty much only 1 guy who does it actively, the others ask for food instead of geo

[blissful crest]

because they want to

[dapper gale]

why the pale king look at hollow knight and hollow knight looked at him

i dont get it

[civic wagon]

I believe It implies HK developed a bond with the pale king, causing him to develop a mind

[dapper gale]

i see

[civic wagon]

Theyre sitting together like father and son

With that, HK gained a mind that radiance could infect

[hot lily]

this is incorrect

[dapper gale]

so radiance can just infect people who have feelings

[hot lily]

it already had a mind prior to that point

PoP is what PK thought led to THK's failure, not what necessarily was the case

[civic wagon]

Ohhh

I shouldnt have treated it like fact

[hot lily]

isn't your fault, it's a common misconception that a lot of people inside and outside of the community repeat

[civic wagon]

How do we know that tho?

[hot lily]

we know it based on how other vessels of apparently physically identical composition have minds of their own

[civic wagon]

Why does the knight succeed where HK failed?

[hot lily]

and the fact that the Worldsense tablet literally says "You shall know the state of the world" which wouldn't be possible if THK didn't actually have a mind

[hot lily]

TK doesn't succeed in fact, it's going to fail just like THK

[indigo venture]

it doesn't

[sand stump]

Because the Knight kills the Radiance and THK tried to contain it

[indigo venture]

TK isn't pure

[civic wagon]

It isnt??

[sand stump]

nope

[indigo venture]

I mean THK didn't really have the tools to Kill it either way

Let alone reach them

[hot lily]

no, TK isn't pure, and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong

[sand stump]

It has a mind so it isn't pure

[civic wagon]

I did not know

[sand stump]

yeah, true

[hot lily]

this isn't why it isn't pure, purity isn't necessarily meant to be literally read

[civic wagon]

I thought it was succeeded at being a vessel

[sand stump]

but that doesn't change that they tried to contain ti

[dapper gale]

what does pure mean in the game

[indigo venture]

Let's not do the purity and hollowity talk, not really needed rn

[indigo venture]

Fuck's sake

[civic wagon]

Why did THK try to contain radiance instead of bodying it?

[sand stump]

yeah but like I'm not bothered doing the whole pizazz of the differentiating between the two 😭

[indigo venture]

It couldn't, and even if it could even reach them, they'd have gotten bodied themselves

[hot lily]

this is very debatable, and all we know is what it would necessarily lead to had THK actually been pure

that being the permanent sealing of Radiance

[indigo venture]

The death of Radiance comes from very specific circumstances

[sand stump]

iirc in terms of the Vessels Pure means they would be able to contain the Radiance eternally without being infected

[civic wagon]

I feel like a dumbass, the lore is so confusing

[indigo venture]

Otherwise they'd either win or escape without that much issue

[sand stump]

We've all been there at some point

[hot lily]

correct

[civic wagon]

Is this why if you kill THK, TK gets infected instead?

[hot lily]

i mean in the most literal sense yes, TK isn't pure

[civic wagon]

So is TK is a failure or a success? Cause they arent pure, but they still take out the radiance

[hot lily]

in the sense of what PK wanted, they're a failure

[sand stump]

yeah

[hot lily]

PK/WL probably couldn't even conceive of killing Radiance

[sand stump]

they technically succeeded in what he wanted
but they failed in the way PK wanted to do it

[hot lily]

PK didn't want Radiance to die so that's not even a success under that metric

[civic wagon]

What way is that?

[sand stump]

PK wanted a technical Death of the Radiance, where she would be trapped forever and unable to effect the people
Whereas TK literally kills the Radiance

[civic wagon]

Is radiance evil, or is it subjective, i cant tell why the radiance infected things

[sand stump]

The Death of her Influence is a better way to put it

[hot lily]

i mean by the time of the 2nd wave of Infection they're undoubtedly evil

[sand stump]

yeah

[indigo venture]

I mean that's just them being mad at being locked up

[hot lily]

they attack innocents and retaliate against people who themselves weren't responsible for their state

[civic wagon]

What caused her to start the infection? Was it just a vain choice or is there a reason

[hot lily]

not justifiable nor morally right

[indigo venture]

Radiance basically was between being locked up forever of being locked up forever

[sand stump]

Evil and Justified Evil are still both Evil

[indigo venture]

Never said it wasn't evil

[sand stump]

true

[indigo venture]

Not wanting to be forgotten

Because that'd mean they'd be locked away forever

[hot lily]

betrayal of the Moth tribe to follow PK instead

[indigo venture]

which in Seer's word is "Death"

[sand stump]

yup

[civic wagon]

Theres a whole moth tribe?

[indigo venture]

How deep are you into the game

[sand stump]

well there was

not anymore

Radiance probably killed them all first

[civic wagon]

Uhhh, well im on PoP, and i unlocked the black egg temple

[hot lily]

recommend you get all of the game's endings before you come back

[civic wagon]

I have almost every charm (omw to kingsoul then voidheart)

[sand stump]

Yeah, the other endings will really clear up a lotta things

[civic wagon]

How many total endings are there?

[sand stump]

like 4

5 if you count the delicate flower ending

[civic wagon]

How the fuck am i gonna find all them

[sand stump]

Well what endings have you got?

[civic wagon]

None, im on my first save file

[hot lily]

won't spoil

[sand stump]

aah

well dw, you'll eventually get them all

[civic wagon]

Spoilers dont matter to me

[sand stump]

They aren't insanely hidden once you realise what they are

Except for like Delicate Flower, that ones pretty annoying

[civic wagon]

I keep hearing about it

[sand stump]

You thinking of the Quest or the ending?

[civic wagon]

The quest

[sand stump]

yeahh

its really annoying 😭