sk-lore

[stray grove]

He could also make mind seals

And PK’s Void tech is otherwise way more impressive

AC had Void spells and maybe Void seals PK had functioning Void robots

[limpid summit]

I know

[whole holly]

Shamans are only faction that refuse to use their powers for technology

[crimson patio]

Tbf I feel like if AC has a limitless source of soul they would achieve the same too

[stray fog]

Soul requires death
Their machines would run on death 🔥

[stray grove]

They’re good for keeping people out of certain areas

[whole holly]

death metal🔥

[stray grove]

A skilled enough Soul user doesn’t need to kill people for their Soul

[whole holly]

yeah they also can draw soul from air

[crimson patio]

A pale being doesn’t need to kill people for their soul

[stray grove]

GMS might because she’s a bum ass fraud lmao

[stray fog]

Minecraft automatic pale being farm tutorial

[stray grove]

But PK could generate literally infinite Soul by himself

[whole holly]

she is greedy seemingly

[whole holly]

*with white lady

[stray grove]

No he can do it on his own too

[crimson patio]

Nah the charm is called kingsoul

[stray grove]

WP has infinite Soul Totems

[crimson patio]

It’s him

[stray grove]

We don’t know how KS was formed but it represents their union

It’s not just PK

[crimson patio]

I think it’s very sweet that the PoP infinite soul totems are shaped like THK

Very lore irrelevant but it’s cute

[stray grove]

In any case that they were able to create it tells us a lot about the capabilities of the beings in question

[crimson patio]

PK put thoughts into those

[stray fog]

The favourite child

[stray grove]

I don’t think PK consciously made those

[crimson patio]

Yea he put thoughts into those
Wink

[stray grove]

This is true of a lot of WP but PoP particularly is pretty abstract

[opaque sable]

that said, why does the corpse of the pale wyrm creates ash??

[stray grove]

It’s not actually ash

This falling ash is moult. The Wyrm's corpse decaying. Endless. Rmm... Serene. Sad.

Just Wyrm flakes

[fading shard]

yeah

[fading shard]

yup

[whole holly]

fact that we still know very little about Palestag, Fayforn frustrates me

[near jasper]

Palestag is

Obviously

[crimson patio]

A myth

[opaque sable]

maybe it was all consumed by nature long ago, given that pharloom is older than hallownest (i think...) and maybe that is why pharloom's low lands are so lush and fertile

[crimson patio]

So
Why is Mount fay cold when the fluff is not snow

[opaque sable]

oh yeah thats a good point

[foggy stratus]

Its one giant endothermic vent.

Trust.

[bleak maple]

I found it so funny that of all in Hallownest only godseekers sing because they were close to Pharloom

[foggy stratus]

They sing? Where?

[fading shard]

the godseeker does

THE godseeker I mean in godhome

well not sure if that's singing or not

[foggy stratus]

Again. Where?

[foggy stratus]

Also rate my theory on Mt. Fey.

[near jasper]

E+

[foggy stratus]

Wym e+? That isnt even a normal grade:(

[whole holly]

B+ honestly

[neon hound]

F-

[foggy stratus]

Y'all just saying letters at this point

[whole holly]

Z-

[foggy stratus]

[whole holly]

Z--

[foggy stratus]

Ɔ÷

[whole holly]

lol

it's okay dude

i want to speculate about Sea of Sorrows yet again...

so do you guys believe we will enter via Putrified Ducts or Bilewater?

[foggy stratus]

The underrated Far Fields option.

[twin dragon]

Id think the ash would last for a while, especially this much to cover an entire area with a single corpse

[twin dragon]

We dont know, probably decomposition

[tawdry flare]

There are Pharloom Bay assets in the Bilewater Weavenest iirc

[twin dragon]

Why would it be wyrms either way and not literally anything else?

the bones dont look like em at all

[whole holly]

F-

[twin dragon]

bilewater def

putrified ducts are getting removed in SOS

trust me

[whole holly]

i mean that's possible, weavenest murglin is generally associated with nautical theming and even name is a match

[whole holly]

honestly i hope Sea of Sorrows isn't just about lifeblood and has other themes too, what's your opinion?

[twin dragon]

same

i dont want it to be fully related to lifeblood seing how they made it another infection-like

Marine fauna in hk is smt ive always wanted

or yk, if it somehow ends up being the sandsea wastes

i wouldnt complain either i wanted to see that shit

[whole holly]

me too, closest we ever got is fog canyon, sands of karak... we need more marine theming

[twin dragon]

cleanwater

[foggy stratus]

Hornet's gonna see one orange thing in SoS and have a heart attack, trust.

[whole holly]

i think Sea of Sorrows will have saltwater

[whole holly]

that's one karak soldiers orange blobs weirded me out in Khann Gauntlet

[foggy stratus]

It gives fungal infection.

[whole holly]

i guess similar : able to spawn burning bubbles from within its coral-cased shell.

coral-growth is weirdly invasive

i hope that we see some interesting and magical npcs, it is to be expected

maybe not Druid, Shaman or Weaver but something

Sea witch of sorts would be nice, but it won't be named witch likely

Siren figure of sorts

[foggy stratus]

Yeah I know, but its always given off fungal infection vibes to me for some reason.

Maybe its because it kinda reminds me of the fungified husks from HK.

[whole holly]

yeah, they are really similar, like really, also fungus is similar to spores/pollen so i don't blame you

i also don't want addition of other pale things unless it is explanation for Palestag

maybe a record of it's existence

[chilly gyro]

New theory for the underworks. The underworkers aren’t even haunted (maybe due to the spinning gear blades shredding the silk strands but idk). They’ve just been worked to the bone for so long that they’re just Like That^TM

[midnight reef]

Im pretty sure they're also haunted

[chilly gyro]

I know that their haunted in game, but it would be really funny in a fucked up way if they weren’t

[fading shard]

oh it's just like a headcanon okay

I was about to say that they are haunted

[chilly gyro]

Yeah. Basically just a What If Scenario

[whole holly]

what was bilewater before it became polluted?

[midnight reef]

probably an area like Verdania

We really cant know though

[solar gale]

I think something similar to greenpath

[whole holly]

or possibly to pharloom bay...?

[solar gale]

Because those fat flying fucks which explode on death look quite similar to the mosquitoes in greenpath

[whole holly]

yeah i have to agree

[whole holly]

i think they are related species

[fading shard]

what we see from fleatopia

nd the place shakras master rested

[solar gale]

Oh yeaa

[fading shard]

we see the parts of bilewater not polluted

to give us some ideas what it looked like

[solar gale]

Wait no there needs to be plantlife as well

[whole holly]

exactly, those parts are just basalt/craftmetal rocks and saltwater

Weavenest Murglin also gives us closer look but that's different area of bilewater

[fading shard]

that place is kinda more so seemingly gonna be pharloom bay

rather then bilewater

[whole holly]

yeah that is partially true, i am inclined to agree, but i wonder what it was called before

[frank dove]

So I was doing some thinking on this

And I remembered something important

[whole holly]

makes sense

[frank dove]

Makes me wonder especially bc there is only 1 cage near him

Although doesn't make sense he would fit in it

But 'sins of sickness' sounds a lot like something happening in bilewater and putrified ducts

[whole holly]

maybe slabfly was supposed to punish regular bug with it and got caught up in trap as well

[frank dove]

Oh wait that's a good point too

What is actually in that cage I wonder

[whole holly]

thanks, i am glad i count contribute

[whole holly]

wasn't it a key in slab, probably slabflies personal belonging

[frank dove]

Yes it was key of apostate but I mean is there a body in the cage or is that the foreground we see

[whole holly]

most likely junk/debris

[frank dove]

It kind of looks like coral enemy if you look closely

[whole holly]

ivvy on youtube looks as cut content and stuff like this, i wish she observed this

[frank dove]

fr I was thinking the same thing

I remember a lot of file name reveals in her vids or something

[sick tinsel]

Maybe he was sent to hide the apostate key far away so hornet doesn't get the key

[frank dove]

Uh I find that highly unlikely

I think he died before hornet came

Cage looks like it's in ruins

[sick tinsel]

But the body seems new

Maybe he used the cage to fight back

Who knows

[frank dove]

Bro are you actually being serious rn

Judges are an enemy

Did you just never use journal

Bro

Here screenshot of one #sk-lore message

[frank dove]

That seems unnecessarily convenient. I think this implies the 'swallowing' punishments is from barnaks

Last judge is older version

[foggy fractal]

throughout blasted steps

[frank dove]

There is a room with 'squirmms' or something like that

A very rare enemy only in that room

And journal says they can grow up to become very large

They have very same face as judges too

[foggy fractal]

these guys

[frank dove]

They run away as soon as you go in, you have to use needolin

[cold peak]

Waaa

[sick tinsel]

Maybe

[sick tinsel]

Got any idea where's this room

I searched the entire map

[foggy fractal]

basically above the blasted steps fast travel

[low oracle]

Breakable wall above the Bellway in Blasted Steps, to the left.

Methinks

[sick tinsel]

Oh alr ry

[sick tinsel]

Thanks

[graceful grail]

GMS did nothing wrong

[foggy stratus]

Whatever you say man.

[graceful grail]

Not any more wrong than PK.

Everyone betrays her and she should be a villain

[cold peak]

If you ignore phantom

[foggy stratus]

PK had an actual reason to do the Vessel Project. GMS did the Haunting for no good reason and is, iirc, actively hunting down Weaver spawn to consume.

[cold peak]

That too

[foggy stratus]

She lied to her children, sent one to slowly die controlling the release of smog and is over all just a shitty Higher Being.

Also Lace.

Can't forget Lace.

[graceful grail]

She loved lace even after she betrayed her. Carictar development

[foggy stratus]

Iirc she made her specifically to be permanently a child and be dependant on her for Silk.

[cold peak]

GMS was going to wake up eventually anyways yeah, there wasn't much reasonable non-sympathetic reasons fot her to have those under her influence to go hunt down weaver descendants. Also can't forget the fact that the initial creation of the Citadel came about through a literal hostile takeover of the other peoples that lived in Pharloom before GMS and the Weavers

[foggy stratus]

People in the world actively hate GMS. No one feels even remotely the same about PK.

[cold peak]

Most don't even know she exists

[foggy stratus]

The ones that do almost all hate her.

[cold peak]

Or fear her

[foggy stratus]

Skarrs, Karak and Shamans seem to all either hate or dislike her.

[cold peak]

Ye

[graceful grail]

And Lace hated her for it. But what you try if every other child betrays you and you have the power.

To make one dependent on that level.

[foggy stratus]

If you're a good person, don't fucking do that.

Lace alone imo is more than enough proof for GMS being a horrible person.

[graceful grail]

At least when she is making Lace, yes, Bad GMS.

But she changed.

[foggy stratus]

Doing like two good things for a child that doesn't even view its existence as a life doesn't erase the laundry list of bad and frankly horrible shit she's done.

Like making the child that way in the first place.

[graceful grail]

Well, if the weavers wernt such bad daughters GMS might have been nice

[foggy stratus]

Maybe if she didnt lie to them in the first place they wouldn't have been "bad daughters".

[graceful grail]

Telling someone they are divine when thats your view dosent justify what the wavers did to her.

And thats not even how i see it rly

[foggy stratus]

Do you remember the Widow memory thing with all the Weavers playing the Harps?

[graceful grail]

Yes

[foggy stratus]

That's likely what the Weavers were doing most of the time.

Singing for GMS.

[floral quiver]

It's how they were able to trick her.

Because they put hidden magic in their songs of praise

[graceful grail]

Forgeting Literally the weavenest which purpose is to convine against gms

[floral quiver]

?

There was little convincing necessary

From any concrete lore we have, the entire Weaver collective was burning with hate and fury from the lie, such that all the remains of Weaver beliefs and culture that are still around are old rebel strongholds, labs, and manufacturing centers.

[edgy nebula]

wrong

[foggy stratus]

Off topic but Lost Groal the Great with Shade Soul.

[edgy nebula]

weavenests were made to be free from gms, they only started scheming plans later to stay free afawk

[floral quiver]

Yeah, a mix of containment, elimination and flight.

If Silk can't be eliminated then contain her, if she can't be indisputably contained then contain her as good as possible and flee

All so that the Weavers would no longer live under Silk's control

[cold peak]

They silked and song'd all over

Literally

[floral quiver]

Very much so, yes

[graceful grail]

Snare Setter??

[floral quiver]

You mean the prototype containment device?

The one designed to effectively be a portable rune that holds things in place?

Such that Silk would be held in one spot, unable to interact with anything or enact her will?

[floral quiver]

Like, this is almost unmissable lore, here.

One of the few things that is directly locked down

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure snare setter is found in a room where they made tools and plans to deal with gms, the bell kinda implies that to me arleast

they ended up choosing the bells and the citadel over snare setter

[spark valve]

they're not mutually exclusive they probably used both given the dream nail dialogue

sorry needolin dialogue

[floral quiver]

Weavenest Alta looks to be the Weavers main development hub for direct anti-Silk arms and equipment

[edgy nebula]

yeah true

[spark valve]

trap her then put her to sleep

[edgy nebula]

yeah when they started to plan against gms they probably expanded weavenest atlea instead of the others cause of how convenient the placement of it was

[floral quiver]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Cradle would have had Silkshots built in just in case, if their development had gone further before the enacting of the Citadel plan and eventually death/flight.

[floral quiver]

At the bottom of the known world, as far from Silk as they could get.

[fierce narwhal]

hornet slips on conveniently placed widow scented banana peel that triggers 50 silkshots to shoot her point blank

[rocky edge]

Small theory: what if hegemol is a kind of Karak bug? The armor looks vaguely like a karak gorr, and the mask looks a little like khann’s head. The osts of the two bosses have similar sounding instruments too

[stark ocean]

could be, but karak gorr were commanded to live their whole lives in the tower

[rocky edge]

One mustn’t be bound by words

[robust wagon]

How would a karak get all the way to Hallownest?

[near jasper]

Really big storm

[marble oasis]

Walkin

[lyric rose]

Nah, I’m still

kin

[ruby gust]

get stolen by a small puddle (sea (of sorrow?)) and current brings them there

ends in blue lake

[near jasper]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/26/world/dead-humpback-whale-brazil-trnd

[rocky edge]

I mean the weavers did

[whole ridge]

I mean, look in Sprit's Glade.
We got an NPC that looks EXACTLY like a Karakkan

[robust wagon]

Which one

[foggy fractal]

Garro

[edgy nebula]

garro no doubt looks like a karaka but honestly i wouldnt be surprised if it was a coincidence

there are a total of like, 4 spirit npcs with a similar appearance to a karaka

[foggy fractal]

yeah I think its just a coincidence
maybe ari looked back at garro's design and expanded from there for the karakians but thats about it

[whole ridge]

There is:
Garro
Boss
and Magnus Strong

[edgy nebula]

and xero

[robust wagon]

The spirits in spirits glade were made by backers anyway

[whole holly]

makes sense they live in resting grounds which is near blue lake

[gritty igloo]

Yes, but the problem is that the karaks needed water, but as we can see, everything was fine with them.

[karmic crypt]

Guys

Do you guys think that everything wrong in pharloom is because it's just a constant dominoes falling and there's no one that could really be blamed or be singled out as a villain because they are all the victim and also the perpetrator to the doom of pharloom, or the opposite?

[dire lynx]

We*vers

[karmic crypt]

I mean, like in Hollow Knight, atleast we can just blame either the Radiance tantrum

Or the Pale Goat desperation

Feels like everyone plays a part in this doom self fulfilling prophecy in pharloom

[karmic crypt]

What about after they left or are dead? The bugs still contiune one making the city more unbearable imo even though they are indeed also the victims

The whiteward and so, I mean

[dire lynx]

whiteward was made by we*vers

conductors were also bad, but they simply carried the system on

the nasty spiders started it all

[lofty beacon]

Why are we censoring we*vers

Oh

I see

[fading shard]

oh hey unn

[dire lynx]

hello

[fading shard]

what's the discussion if I may ask

[dire lynx]

^

[fading shard]

the we*vers

[whole holly]

Grand Mother Silk is kind of source of all evil, being a bad mother and all

also control freak

she started domino effect

[karmic crypt]

I had been so harsh on you my Pale Goat

Though I think the impact of destruction isn't as much felt or as destructive as in Hallownest too compared to Pharloom

But that's probably also because the difference between how Pale King treated and started the relationship between all of the different tribes in that kingdom compared to GMS

[karmic crypt]

I mean, there's still some good and bad weavers no?

[fading shard]

what did the pale king even do

the infantcide is his main and greatest sin

and yes it is terrible

but he had no other choice

[dire lynx]

if you think about it, its actually abortion since they were still in eggs

[fading shard]

the best people suggest is him to just.......give up

which like is honestly worse

[karmic crypt]

I know, it's just that he seems to be the lesser evil out of the two you know, along with how he rule, developed the hallownest and tried his best to not be a dick

[fading shard]

his kingdom was said to be great and that statement was shown to hold true

[dire lynx]

for sure, the citadel of those nasty spiders was way worse

pk was near perfect

[solar tapir]

It's a shame that many people were only able to realize this in comparison to gms

[dire lynx]

fr

i was a day one pk truther tho

[fading shard]

I feel as though there's not even any need to compare the two, even if we had no other kingdoms to compare what we were shown was still a great kingdom

[fading shard]

SAME

miss' unn you can actually see me defending the pale king

years before silksong released in this server

[karmic crypt]

Take the mantle of PK apologist off, we can now huh?

[dire lynx]

the citadel ruined just about everything, and the topic was about how it took the citadel for some to realise that pk was the goat

[fading shard]

The only issue hallownest has is the maggot issue but given what's said about them it's not a hallownest problem

but just how everybody treats them

[whole holly]

honestly how do we feel about Grimm is he evil or not?

[whole holly]

yeah i have to agree, you are right in this case

[fading shard]

other then that hallownest was near perfect

[solar tapir]

Victim of circumstances?

[fading shard]

the pale king focused on inventing stuff to improve his peoples lives

[fading shard]

I don't consider him evil

the nightmare heart is a different story though

[fading shard]

like I mention so much good hallownest had

[whole holly]

Nightmare Heart does make Grimmkin serve him

[karmic crypt]

Though the Citadel seems to be more technologically developed than Hallownest

[fading shard]

that's actually not the case

we focus on pharlooms technology in game

but hallownest was shown to be close to the same level

[dire lynx]

they are pretty on par, we just dont get to see it from hallownest because of how long dead the kingdom is

[fading shard]

they had speakers, gramophones, cogs, elevators, doctors, and automatons

they even had treadmills

something pharloom doesn't

and unlike pharloom they even had crystal batteries

and acid computers

the difference is that all of that technology in hallownest was served to improve the quality of life of it's people

[dire lynx]

they also had power that didnt come from the tortured and twisted souls of innocent bugs

[fading shard]

whilst pharlooms was focused on the expansion

[fading shard]

yeah their automatons actually used batteries

rather then the souls of the damned

though that's probably because the Pale king most of the time hates sacrificing others

literally shunned the snail shamans, and stood against the soul master for that very reason

[whole holly]

yeah Soul Sanctum still happened though

[fading shard]

it did yes

[whole holly]

Snail Shamans are evil, as bad as weavers

[fading shard]

you still gotta give him props for making the soul sanctum scholars hold a huge amount of resentment towards him

[whole holly]

that's not much, tbh

[fading shard]

He stood against the soul master to a large degree

[karmic crypt]

Ain't no oppressed sub tribe of bugs too in Hallownest

The mantises, the weavers, and the mushrooms I mean

[whole holly]

i mean to what extent? he disapproved and opposed ideas

[fading shard]

He was a Peacemaker who dealt with other factions by being diplomatic and pacific, hashing things out with the other tribes via communication not conquest after all

[fading shard]

the hive?

[whole holly]

you mean independent tribes not being oppressed?

[fading shard]

the mosskin?

[karmic crypt]

Ah...

[solar tapir]

iirc they used soul totems and not the bugs while Pk was in charge

[karmic crypt]

I always only remember those three

[fading shard]

pk never condoned it though??

"But the King... why?! He opposed everything I did..."

"by standing against me he robbed me of my immortality!"

[fading shard]

The mosskin and unn did agree for the Pale king to build roads on their territory where his subjects could have safe passage in

as long as they follow the law of unn

the hive just....closed themselves off

and the Pale king just said okay

[solar tapir]

He definitely didn't condoned bug sacrifices, not sure about the totems

scholars may have used them in secret

[karmic crypt]

Wonder how would Pharloom and Hallownest would change drastically and fare if both kingdom have swapped rulers

[whole holly]

what is law of unn though, it can be interpreted that pilgrims would face law of unn, like deportation? or death?

[karmic crypt]

Pharloom with PK and Hallownest with GMS

Oh boy do Radiance finally get her match that will make a run for her money

[fading shard]

no

gms would be screwed

[dire lynx]

radiance would stomp gms ngl

[fading shard]

I have no idea

[karmic crypt]

Even GMS?

[solar tapir]

but Sanctum as a whole was not something illegal so dunno

[karmic crypt]

Zamn

[whole holly]

i feel like Grand Mother Silk's haunting would be stronger than Sealed Radiance's Infection, Silk would impose her will on everyone forcefully making them forget/ignore/suppress Radiance/Infection

[karmic crypt]

[fading shard]

gms is not that powerful

I mean she is

but she's weaker then pale king and radiance

[whole holly]

and Pale King would succeed with eternal kingdom if he was only god and he worked with Old Hearts and Tribes of Pharloom

[fading shard]

Plausibly the nightmare heart too

[fading shard]

he would definitely succeed in making a eternal kingdom

[whole holly]

i mean what even is basis of that??? GMS being less powerful that NMH, PK and Radiance

[fading shard]

the radiances infection is shown to be far more affective then gms haunting

the main reason the haunting's a thing

is because of the wide spread use of silk

that it's everywhere in the water

in the food

literally a microplastic situation

it's said so in game

the citadel screwed up a ton

[whole holly]

GMS herself also manipulates silk and lets down silk threads into environment to haunt bugs

[fading shard]

literally even said that they unknowingly gifted gms a bunch of minds

[fading shard]

she didn't let down silk into the environment???

[whole holly]

yeah but infection is solely mind based, haunting has physical advantage

[fading shard]

most of it came from the citadel

[fading shard]

...........

[solar tapir]

All the Tribes of Pharloom is a mantis tribe on steroids, the tribe with which there were the most problems in Hallownest, i doubt about pk succeed with them

[whole holly]

maybe start being open minded to other people's ideas?

[whole holly]

that's Infection manifesting physically, not spreading physically, dude...

[whole holly]

she did though, she even does it in Weaver Queen Ending? Lace Cutscene and so on

[whole holly]

still not spreading physically

[whole holly]

illness is dreamborne, physical manifestation is not physical advantage

[fading shard]

"Well watch out. It's a sickly air that fills the place"

[whole holly]

that's individual infected flies and lightseeds that are infected from dreamborne illness that occupy husks and broken vessel sometimes

[whole holly]

statement from less reliable narrator, Hunter doesn't understand what infection is and he doesn't know about dreams

[fading shard]

this is said by elder bug

and hunter

are we being serious

you're literally ignoring the statements on sickly air

you're just ignoring in game statements again

[whole holly]

Elder Bug and Hunter aren't experts of infection

[opaque sable]

one thing i had thought to myself recently; hornet probably would not be able to kill gms
when talking to the shamans, they say that for the spell that reveals the everbloom it would be needed power equal to the monarch, and as we know, she needs to get 3 old hearts
and hornet herself admits in the karmelita journal page that karmelita's power rivals her own, so i thought to myself: Gms is 3 times more powerful than act 3 hornet
what hornet does in the weaverqueen ending is find a breach to start absorving gms power without killing her, which she probably would not be able to do

[whole holly]

more accurate statements prove that it is dream-borne illness

[opaque sable]

... good morning

[fading shard]

the game doesn't say it's exclusively a dream borne illness

we see other forms of it and are said of multiple forms

the literal wiki acknowledges this

[solar tapir]

He is right about illnes being dreamborne while haunting was physical from the start

[opaque sable]

just wanted to say that, idk if it adds to the discussion

[fading shard]

"the harder you struggled against it, the more it consumed you."

[fading shard]

there are multiple forms of it

[solar tapir]

These forms comes from the dreams anyway

[whole holly]

"the bugs of Hallownest were twisted out of shape by that ancient sickness. First they fell into deep slumber, then they awoke with broken minds, and then their bodies started to deform..." deformation/infection is physical manifestation it doesn't spread physically

[fading shard]

it does

we see the lightseeds doing so

and we know there are physical manifestations of the infection

[whole holly]

yeah, Radiance is cutting veil between dream world and waking world that's how infection manifests

[whole holly]

already infected lightseeds are controlling Broken Vessel so what? that's not spreading physically, that's infected parasites taking control

[fading shard]

"strange air has been seeping down from above since long ago. Some of the air became liquid, and some of that liquid became flesh, and some of that flesh came to life"

the lightseeds are manifestations of the infection

this is literally said in the hunter's journal

Wdym

[whole holly]

dude that hypothesis comes from hunter's lack of knowledge since he knows nothing about dream realm

[fading shard]

this is literally a statement from the hunter

[whole holly]

he also says "A single-celled organism, completely infected. Scurries about simple-mindedly."

[opaque sable]

its not a hypothesis, its a observation

[whole holly]

but it is still lacking nuance and significant information

[fading shard]

Nika what I dislike when it comes to debating with you is that fact that you dismiss all pieces of evidence that go against your personal headcanon

so far you haven't proven anything

other then saying this isn't true

well this is just a hypothesis

they don't know that

at least with the shades

you bothered to show some counter evidence which I accepted

here you're doing nothing but just dissmissing ingame statements

it's just sad

[fading shard]

and then you dare to use a statement from the hunter

stop being biased

[whole holly]

because you misinterpret or misrepresent game lore and you ignore fact that lightseeds and infected balloons themselves are just single celled organisms infected, infection is never told to spread physically, it only manifest as such, it is dream borne illness

[fading shard]

it is said to spread physically......

the literally infectious gas

it's said multiple times to exist

[fading shard]

and there's a whole journal entry stating that the light seeds are infection made manifest

literally

[whole holly]

that's just particles of infected tissue in case volatile mosskin

[fading shard]

..."Well watch out. It's a sickly air that fills the place"

[whole holly]

that's not evidence of it spreading physically

[fading shard]

"Horrible goo and noxious gas has started leaking down from above."

"Single cell of infection"

[whole holly]

that's not it spreading through airborne means...

[fading shard]

Not infected cell of infection

a single cell OF infection

you like debating a lot with @limpid summit

[whole holly]

"A single-celled organism, completely infected. Scurries about simple-mindedly." - lightseed

[fading shard]

the infected balloon

you're ignoring the infected balloon

[fading shard]

okay so when I mention infectious gass you say this, when I show indications talking about a sickly air you still cope

[whole holly]

infection as illness is spreading through dreams, it does physically manifests because of veil between dream realm and waking realm is cut, infected balloon is evidence of infection manifesting physically if that's case, but infection doesn't physically infect bugs though physical means it is only dream-borne means

[whole holly]

dude, bugs first falling into a "deep slumber," then waking with "broken minds," and only then deforming physically. This suggests the physical symptoms are a byproduct of the infection...

you ignore game statements and project it onto me

[fading shard]

no I'm not??

[fading shard]

.....those that are already infected

[whole holly]

why don't you realize that it is spread by dreams and physical manifestation is a symptom

[whole holly]

???

[fading shard]

this is referring to volatile gruzzers, furious vengeflies and violent husks

THis doesn't discount the noxious gas

and the damn infected balloons

[fading shard]

It is at TIMES

not always

[whole holly]

wdym? what the...?

[whole holly]

Pale King: "You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams."

[whole holly]

it is universally dream based

[fading shard]

I know the in game statements

[whole holly]

like i said they are manifestations and deformations

[whole holly]

clearly not, if you think that it not solely spread by dreams

[fading shard]

because it doesn't??

the infection originated as a mind illness

and then it evolved

That's kinda the entire point yk??

It evolved and started to create new forms of infection

such as again the noxious gas

which the game mentions

and btw if you check the dictionarry sickly gas often times mean air that contains diseases

[whole holly]

Corpses can be reanimated by the Infection or by Infected lifeforms such as Lightseeds or flies.It can also create single-celled lifeforms such as Infected Balloons.Lastly, the Infection can manifest as growths, vines, and noxious gas which cover the caverns." Wiki analysis concludes that everything that you said is manifestation

[whole holly]

sickly gas is also outdated term that people believed to cause diseases before we discovered pathogens

[fading shard]

"A noxious gas is a substance that is poisonous, harmful, or dangerous to living things, often causing severe illness"

[whole holly]

so???

Noxious gas, sickly air all are byproduct of infection in all cases

[fading shard]

yeah

the infection created the infected balloons, noxious gas, goo and vines that's obvious

[whole holly]

you are ignoring hollow knight in-game evidence so you rely on real life definitions??? real life logic doesn't always apply to game

[fading shard]

this feels as though you're just agreeing with me

[fading shard]

The game literally uses those terms

for the gas

I'm teaching you what certain words mean

[whole holly]

Infection doesn't spread physically, you just misunderstand in-game evidence

[whole holly]

i knew it so you aren't teaching anything, just misusing them

[heavy gyro]

The gas is noxious because it is poisonous not because it spreads illness

[whole holly]

yeah, it is toxic byproduct:
"The gas that seeps from their growths smells invitingly sweet, but it will burn through shell and flesh if you get too close! "

[whole holly]

i am so glad that you appeared, thank god

[fading shard]

yeah?

[gritty igloo]

He didn't kill his children, he just put an egg in a poisonous puddle lol

[fading shard]

same same but different

[twin dragon]

Its not just poisonous that shit is straight up corrosive

and the druid is smoking packs of it

[whole holly]

what Druid are you talking about???

[twin dragon]

moss

which other druid is in sk

i didnt read the whole convo

im just saying shit

[whole holly]

lol, imagine moss druid brewing infection

[twin dragon]

infected druid

chat

is the moss prophet moss druid

they're both moss

therefore

they are related

[whole holly]

Moss Druid better start brewing moss infection to outcompete lifeblood infectionslop

[twin dragon]

smoking void aswell

[frank dove]

Yeah it's interesting how moss creatures are in both games

[twin dragon]

moss druid is the mosskin's plug

they had to flee because the pale king caught up on the mossberry plantations

[terse warren]

Les go infection number 5

Which we totally need

[whole holly]

1. Infection 2. Lifeblood 3. Haunting 4. Void Threads 5. Toxic Moss Overgrowth

guys we might actually need infection number 5 to solve Plasmium crisis

[twin dragon]

true

Is void infection different from the haunting?

[whole holly]

with added effects of void i guess

[twin dragon]

I mean the bugs dont have needolin dialogue

and yk, void is shown to "hollow out" people

kinda

[whole holly]

but Silksong was promoted as land haunted by Silk and Song

[twin dragon]

AC

[terse warren]

Yeahg

[whole holly]

true, i guess TC is consistent with hk's complex lore

[terse warren]

It's different enuff

Void threads can also attack directly

[twin dragon]

I would assume they like

take over the haunting

since the bug probably would die

[whole holly]

is Song like infection, song itself is never used to control bugs, but i kind of wish it was, Siren-like figure with control of world sounds sick

[twin dragon]

and they are dead likely but alive given the haunting

[twin dragon]

maybe the haunting is a song

and yk, the citadel sort of "haunted" the kingdom

because slavery

[twin dragon]

where

[foggy stratus]

Void Masses me thinks.

[terse warren]

Void masses

[twin dragon]

aint it voided bugs shuffling void out of themselves?

[foggy stratus]

Its dead bodies and Void knotted together.

[twin dragon]

Its not void "thread" its just void

i think

[foggy stratus]

"Void soaked Thread"

[twin dragon]

void mass journal?

[foggy stratus]

"Dense knot of husks bound tight by void soaked Silk.
Silk and shells corrupted. That void seeks now to claim this land whole. These poor shells are only the beginning."

[twin dragon]

Yeah

theyre bound by it

but the shit that is vomited out is likely regular void slop

tendrils

thingy

[grim elk]

is there any additional lore on hornet?

[twin dragon]

the entirety of silksong

[grim elk]

sry im kinda new to hollow night i cant play it so i watch others play it cuz the lore can be intresting

[whole holly]

what are we expecting from Sea of Sorrows, i want your predictions

[dire lynx]

what do you know of her lore?

[twin dragon]

death and sorrow

[grim elk]

i know Hornet is the daughter of the Pale King and Herrah the Beast, making her a key figure in the lore of Hallownest. Her birth was the result of a bargain between her parents, where Herrah agreed to conceive a child to become a Dreamer and she aids the knight sience meeting in green path

[twin dragon]

"aid"

as she murdered many vessels

to test who is worthy apparently

[grim elk]

ye

[whole holly]

i am expecting resurrection weirdly

[twin dragon]

no

please

tc listen to me

alright?

give us

out first superboss

[dire lynx]

in silksong we learn that after herrah was put to rest she was raised by the pale family in the white palace and becoming a member of the pale court, eventually going to the hive to be trained in the ways of the needle by queen vespa. this is also where she receives her weapon, forged by the bees of the hive out of their unique hivesteel

we learn Herrah is a weaver, making hornet half weaver-half wyrm

[twin dragon]

that was dulled overtime

[grim elk]

wow

[twin dragon]

and only my goat plinney

made it shine again

[dire lynx]

he brought it even beyond its original state

[twin dragon]

yeah

[dire lynx]

plinney is a legend

[twin dragon]

with some weird oil soo

plinney or nailsmith

who's more skilled

[whole holly]

we both know Crest bug's binding will be inhibited by Plasmium, we will enter memory to beat plasmium out of zylotol's master before we can fully bind her

[twin dragon]

Imo even if nailsmith reforges the nails, plinney needs to be more accurate with the weapon due to the finer craftsmanship

of pharloom's pins

[dire lynx]

i would say they cant truley be compared

[twin dragon]

how do you know this?

[whole holly]

Hornet's Needle is also really unique and requires precision

[twin dragon]

True

[dire lynx]

especially since we dont know the skills that go into their craftsmanship

[grim elk]

does she ever succeed at finding her mother?

[twin dragon]

Pharloom's metalworking is much better

[whole holly]

it feels obvious, i promise it will be case

[twin dragon]

Which one

[twin dragon]

Yeah it doesnt look like it to me imo

I dont think wed interact with zylo again

[grim elk]

herrah

[whole holly]

trust, it will happen

[twin dragon]

Well nope

[whole holly]

i meant his master from SoS teaser

[dire lynx]

all hes doing is sharpening, though, where the nailsmith is reforging the nail

[twin dragon]

she's long in the dream

[twin dragon]

I mean

he's also enhancing the nail

which requires precision

a lot of it

[dire lynx]

the pale oil is doing the work though, he says himself

[twin dragon]

does it have to be his master doe

[twin dragon]

I mean, even if you consider that

mind you hes been crafting pins for a while

[whole holly]

yeah it has to be

[grim elk]

is horrnet related to the hollow night?

[twin dragon]

I mean i guess they could appear but not wtv you said

[twin dragon]

yeah

Somewhat

[grim elk]

ik shes one of the sisters

[blissful harbor]

not somewhat
they’re half siblings

[dire lynx]

yes, they are half siblings

[grim elk]

i mean the tall one whos name is The Hollow Night

[blissful harbor]

yes

[twin dragon]

Knight*

[dire lynx]

yes, them

[blissful harbor]

she is half siblings with all the vessels

[grim elk]

oh

[dire lynx]

yeah, pale king was a "busy" man

[dire lynx]

i love to draw them spending time happy together between the events hollow knight and silksong

[twin dragon]

Man, if tc did confirm 100% that the canon ending is dream no more

life would be so much better

im fine with etv being a "what if" scenario

[dire lynx]

Man, if tc did confirm 100% that the canon ending is Embrace the Void

life would be so much better

im fine with dnm being a "what if" scenario

[fading shard]

unn where were you earlier btw you kinda dipped XD

[dire lynx]

i dont engage with that troll, so i left

[whole holly]

Man, if tc did confirm 100% that the canon ending is Sealed Siblings
life would be so much better
im fine with entirety of Silksong being a "what if" scenario

[twin dragon]

son

💔

Where did all the etv hate go

when its most needed

[fading shard]

oh

so it wasn't because of me

thank god

[dire lynx]

no, ur quite nice

[fading shard]

I was worried it could have been because of me and I was going to honestly apologize

[fading shard]

you're nic too :D

[whole holly]

i am joking i was trying to be funny

also if Plasmium/Lifeblood is infectious? what even is supposed to be a cure? it can't be void yet again

[twin dragon]

nika metamorphosis?

[twin dragon]

death

[whole holly]

thanks, do you like it, my pfp was getting old and i wanted to be consistent with rest of my socials

[twin dragon]

Yeah it is quite neat

[whole holly]

Death and Void are cure for everything but what's cure for Death and Void?

[twin dragon]

haunting apparently

since reanimation or smt

because soul = life

[whole holly]

haunting, infection, lifeblood all of them apparently, but haunting fundamentally revives person because silk = soul, but light is opposite of void, i am kind of tired into everything playing into yin/yang duality

[foggy stratus]

Copious amounts of Soul.

[whole holly]

that just feeds the void

i have question, does anyone else find elegy of deep music great when you equip spider strings and you hear needolin and elegy of deep at same time?

[twin dragon]

both melodies at the same time?

I thought spider strings just kinda enhanced the one youre playing

[whole holly]

idk not in my experience

[twin dragon]

i never tried to play elegy nor beastlings with strings

thats why

[whole holly]

I am literally with shakra masters corpse and spider strings simply have no effect

I think Pharloom Bay will connect to Putrified Ducks Bilewater and Verdania based on proximity

weavenest murglin is right above Verdania

[candid linden]

what is pharloom bay

[twin dragon]

death

[whole holly]

maybe whole Bilewater was Baywater previously

i hate Citadel for this reason, they didn't even preserve any pharloom bay and bilewater species in memorium

completely disregarded verdania

[foggy stratus]

Well they tried. Then gave up when it became untenable.

[foggy stratus]

Enough Soul will eventually produce enough light to repel the Void. You just need to reach the tipping point.

[whole holly]

yeah but look at Citadel - Verdania deal

to think that Greymoor and Bilewater looked lot more lush and green

[whole holly]

i mean yeah, but is it amount or potency? everbloom repels void but GMS and Kingsoul couldn't

[foggy stratus]

Probably both. Also Kingsoul only seaps a small amount out at a time which the Void can just instantly consume.

[whole holly]

i have headcanon that we will hear more about Palestag in sea of sorrows

or something related to it

[foggy stratus]

Keep telling yourself that, pal. Maybe it'll come true.

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to be palestag itself but something pale that might be connected to it

[twin dragon]

Palestag's just an exxagerated memory or made up slop

[foggy stratus]

"Yeah we totally killed the Pale Stag, trust us"-Green Princes.

[whole holly]

No, Pale King had dalliance with a plant, obviously

[foggy stratus]

He didnt need to have dalliance with a plant, he's married to one

[glacial warren]

Palestag is a ‘myth made real in memory’. It was a figment of Verdania’s lore, a part of their folk tales/mythology. The Green Prince’s imagination conjured what it might have looked like, to him.

[whole holly]

i doubt it didn't exist in some form

[glacial warren]

It’s the same deal with the Grey Prince. It’s a figment of a mind’s imagination conjuring an image of a creature.

[whole holly]

i have theory about this

[whole holly]

not exactly, rather it might be lost or forgotten memory

[glacial warren]

The Prince recounts how he and his love ‘hunted’ for it in their youth. It was a simple folk tale of his people, but his mind made it ‘real’.

[whole holly]

everyone should read this : https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L48JpgjvIoMeCT58fB0HAB4-L9JthT2mOB-dPQsnow/edit?usp=sharing

[foggy stratus]

Well, it did exist as its "Fabled first Cloverstag" according to the journal.

[glacial warren]

Hornet even questions if the Palestag ever truly existed as she had seen it, further supplementing that it never truly existed, physically, at one point. It was just a fable, a folk tale of the Verdanians.

[whole holly]

i do believe it was pale

[whole holly]

hornet questions it's existence, that's not the same as disproving or denying it

[glacial warren]

But the Green Prince’s mind called back to how he and his love had gone looking for it in their youth. So his mind conjured what he imagined the Palestag might have been like, had it truly existed.

[whole holly]

it just means that she isn't sure

[whole holly]

everything in his memory is conjured

[foggy stratus]

I'm going to side with the description part of the Journal here. It existed, but might have been exaggerated to a large degree.

[whole holly]

in sense that he is recollecting his memories

[glacial warren]

Well to an extent. A lot of it is memories of home and the like. The Palestag is a conjuration of his imagination, a figment from his childhood.

[whole holly]

that's not stated

[glacial warren]

It is very heavily implied. It is the ‘Fabled’ first Cloverstag, and Hornet questions if it existed as she has seem it. It was never real in truth.

[whole holly]

we really shouldn't be forming theories on basis of two unreliable narrators Green Prince and Hornet

[whole holly]

implications are more complex than that, it seems that her memory and existence is forgotten or lost suggested by Palestag's Needolin: May echoes gather...
Lonely specks, adrift...
Forgotten or lost...
Winding ways meet again...
What is remembered...
Facets many, shining apart...

her existence is not mythical or falsified, but forgotten and doubted, which is why i made this theory : https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L48JpgjvIoMeCT58fB0HAB4-L9JthT2mOB-dPQsnow/edit?usp=sharing

both are described as "fell", they are both mothers, Palestag is at one with fauna, fayforn heart of frost, they are both elusive, they are both better than Fraud Mother Silk

[marble oasis]

if it never existed how would gp know to include all the soul details that are a hallmark of pallor

[foggy stratus]

Horf.

What was the theory?

Prolly less.

Slightly.

It won't.

[whole holly]

no Grand Mother Silk is more evil than Radiance

[foggy stratus]

Radiance is going after literally fucking everyone in Hallownest but the Moths who actually wronged her over her Moths using their free will to worship someone else.

[whole holly]

Radiance started appearing in people's dreams because she didn't want to be forgotten, because being forgotten is only death that matters in seer's words, Grand Mother Silk started haunting as opportunity and continued being neglectful mother and control freak

until very end where she saves lace i guess

[foggy stratus]

The Infection reanimates corpses, strips most higher thought from Bugs, creates horrific and painful pusstruals on those it affects and just over all causes undo suffering. If it just kept her in the thoughts of the Bugs of Hallownest or only targted the Moths, it'd be fine, but it targets everyone and causes needless suffering along with it.

[whole holly]

assuming radiance can control severity of infection at all, i mean her choice was infection or death

[foggy stratus]

If you resist it gets worse. She actively is in Myla's mind trying to tell her to kill TK iirc. Its her affliction, she can control it.

[whole holly]

i mean we don't know how it works other than imposing her own will i think is part angry and part desperate

[limpid summit]

More you struggled against it the more it consumed you

I don’t think there’s evidence that she would actually die if forgotten anyway

Would suck immensely to be a forgotten higher being so it’s probably as bad for her

But it’s not like it’s her or them

Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters.

People say this but imo it’s not supposed to literally refer to Rad

It’s not actual death

[ember river]

I believe a forgotten Radiance would exist separate from the minds of the bugs, even if it was alive, it would be powerless to act

[ember river]

We don't really know if she did go after the moths. There's a single survivor of that tribe, for all we know the others could have succumbed to the Radiance as well

[limpid summit]

True

Some of the WDs died infected some did not

Markoth may have

[whole holly]

it's likely either becoming powerless or death, but why would being forgotten not mean death, why would seer say that in first place then?

[limpid summit]

Because being forgotten was the death that mattered to Rad

That’s the point of the dialogue

Not that it would actually kill her

[foggy stratus]

Its still death. Even if it isn't the typical kind of death.

She's still gone.

[stray grove]

Stop being pedantic

ts gotta be the most meaningless distinction oat

[stray grove]

She’s a living idea man it’s a conceptual death

[whole holly]

yeah

[whole holly]

pedantic ahh argument

[swift needle]

Maybe it's a fate worse than death for higher beings

[stray grove]

No this is specifically due to Rad’s nature as a being who exists only in dreams it’s not a generic HB trait

If nobody remembers her she literally doesn’t have a place to exist

So she’s functionally dead

[foggy stratus]

Probably for dream higher Beings.

[whole holly]

you are on fire today, always accurate

you really improved

[fading shard]

I as per usual agree with you

[glacial warren]

Most of the Deities we see in the games are drained/weakened if they lack active worship and seem to enter a more depleted state. For those in the Dream realm, this is the only thing keeping them alive, as the power of belief is the sole reason they exist.

[stray grove]

The only other “dream HB” that we know of is NMH and that doesn’t rely on being remembered by others in the same way so no it’s just Rad

[stray grove]

Radiance is literally the only HB with any evidence to suggest she relies on active worship and even that is a bit of a misconception, beyond needing to be remembered in order to avoid “the only death that matters” the quality and quantity of those who remember her is not indicated to matter at all

[glacial warren]

The Nightmare Heart has found a means to circumvent this issue due to creating a mortal vessel in its image, in this case Grimm, who houses the Heart’s conscious self in the form of the Nightmare King. It has him travel around and collect members for its cult while undergoing a cycle of death and rebirth, ensuring the Heart sustains as long as that cycle is upkept.

[stray grove]

Dream HBs like her simply need a place to exist, they aren’t sustained by “worship”

And no other HB gives a shit one way or another

There’s a difference between desiring worship and being drained in the absence of it

[glacial warren]

This is unique to the Radiance and Nightmare Heart on account of them only existing in the mind. They need worship to exist because it’s the only thing holding them together at all. For them, to be forgotten means their mental cognizance fizzles out and they cease to be entirely.

[stray grove]

No they don’t “need worship” as I just explained above

[glacial warren]

They do. This is the whole thing that spurs the Radiance to lash out with the Infection when she almost perishes due to the King wiping out almost all memorabilia in her image.

[stray grove]

Me when I make shit up

[tawdry flare]

That’s my job

[stray grove]

It’s not your shift apparently

[glacial warren]

She was almost dead, but the miners up in the Peaks found the last statue of her, and recalled. She uses this mental foothold to begin violently backdooring into other Bugs’ minds so more will remember her. The more she assimilates, the more of a foothold she has, the more she’s able to keep sustaining herself.

[stray grove]

Blud making up their own lore

[glacial warren]

No, this is explained in the game’s lore. This is what happens in Hollow Knight and what kickstarts the Infection.

You can find the statue that began this spiral at the very top of the Crystal Peaks, at Hallownest’s Crown.

Dream Nailing it reveals the two simple words that allowed Radiance to begin her hostile takeover: ‘Remember…Light…’

[stray grove]

Ok you seem to be misunderstanding quite a lot so let me try to clarify this for you

[glacial warren]

I’m not the one misunderstanding, I just spat out a huge chunk of facts from the game itself.

[stray grove]

First and foremost, Radiance doesn’t need to be “worshipped”. The requirement is that she’s remembered, as Seer explains. This is because she is a being who exists only in dreams, and so needs to be remembered in order to have a place to exist (“the only death that matters”)
Initially the Radiance lived in this way through the Moth Tribe, her creations. Upon the arrival of the Pale King the Moth Tribe made the decision to abandon Radiance and attempt to kill her by destroying her collective memory. The Pale King had no part in this, Seer says her Tribe “turned their backs” on the light that spawned them and calls them fickle, it would also be uncharacteristic for PK to do this given he got along with the other HBs in the region and respected several tribes’ independence
But Radiance didn’t die, she was sustained by “hush whispers of faith”, members of the MOTH TRIBE who continued to worship her in secret. Eventually, likely due to a mix of desperation and anger she started the infection which targets literally anything with a mind, including single celled organisms and plants. The miners had nothing to do with her return and that statue was likely moved there by the MOTH TRIBE who we know occupied that general area

Most infected don’t have the mental capacity to “worship” her. The quality and quantity of them is not indicated to matter at all, she’s just doing this because she’s a vengeful light god at this point

[tawdry flare]

why would the pale king do this?

[stray grove]

Also this is contradictory because the Heart doesn’t have any active worshippers either

[spark valve]

tc's just gonna retcon all this in the next updates who cares

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood beast is coming

[limpid summit]

This isn’t HK lore you can mention Burning Bugs

[stray grove]

So true besie

[spark valve]

bessie

[glacial warren]

The Heart has an entire cult dedicated to its perpetuation in the form of the Grimm Troupe.

[limpid summit]

🐮

[limpid summit]

Yeah but that’s like it perpetuating itself TK doesn’t worship it

The living bugs just help it along it could do without them

Would be harder

[stray grove]

That “cult’s“members are all itself and the ~2 living bugs are probably volunteers

[glacial warren]

It couldn’t survive without them performing the Ritual, this is literally how it feeds.

[stray grove]

We literally see the method by which it perpetuates itself and it doesn’t rely on worship in any way

The ritual could be performed by anyone

[limpid summit]

Yeah but summoners are just helpers

TK doesn’t have any inclination to kowtow to NMH

[glacial warren]

It relies entirely on the existence of the Troupe and Grimm’s death/rebirth to perpetuate and fuel itself.

[limpid summit]

It relies on help true not outright worship

[stray grove]

The Troupe isn’t even a distinct entity lmao

[limpid summit]

The Troupe is NMH

[sinful nimbus]

Making a new grimmchild requires nightmare essence from fallen kingdoms worship doesn't really play a part

[limpid summit]

The Grimmchild is the only one with even a little bit of agency (probably?)

[glacial warren]

Just like Radiance, the Heart is purely a mind construct and cannot self-sustain due to having no true anchor in the physical world. It created Grimm to serve this purpose, to be its agent in the field.

[spark valve]

the only exceptions are like brumm and divine one of whom doesn't do anything and the other just does the same shit grimmkin do

[stray grove]

GC is also NMH bro

[limpid summit]

I think Grimms are a bit different until NMH is in the one

Personally

[glacial warren]

Not quite. It’s the vessel for the Heart’s manifested consciousness, which we know as the Nightmare King.

[limpid summit]

Like Grimmchild does its own thing

[stray grove]

They’re all the same person

[glacial warren]

You can tell when the Grimmchild houses the Heart in itself once the Ritual completes and it gains the red eyes.

[limpid summit]

WL says clan and master after NMH is absorbed

[stray grove]

Grimmchild is an extension of the Heart even before it becomes the new vessel

[glacial warren]

Well it’s not an extension but moreso its direct spawn.

[stray grove]

Anyway we’re getting sidetracked

[glacial warren]

It is a physical vessel, mortal, but able to die and be reborn via the Ritual the Heart has its cult perform ad nausaum.

[stray grove]

The point is worship doesn’t play a part in the ritual whatsoever and it doesn’t matter as far as Rad is concerned either

[stray grove]

The cult is also the heart by the way

[glacial warren]

Radiance requires some form of belief to sustain, as does the Heart. They’re an idea, a mental concept, a thoughtform. Without that belief, they die.

[stray grove]

No

They just need a place to exist

[glacial warren]

Yes. This is, again, explained in Lore in game.

[stray grove]

It’s not about belief or worship or whatever

[glacial warren]

They don’t need a place, they specifically need people. They need the minds of living Bugs to acknowledge and recall the fact they exist.

[spark valve]

ok you either don't know what worship is or you just conceded it's wholly unnecessary

[stray grove]

Rad just has to be remembered anything with a mind counts fucking plants and single celled organisms count

[glacial warren]

Without this, they perish.

[spark valve]

those are the places where it's possible for them to exist

[stray grove]

Lightseeds doing the most

[glacial warren]

Either way the Heart and Radiance both need mental cognizance in mortal Bugs’ minds in order to exist. Whether this comes in the form of worship, remembrance, or the power of the Heart’s Ritual, doesn’t matter. The root of the issue remains the same, they need to occupy a living Bugs’ mind in some way.

[stray grove]

Bro talking bout sum “mental cognizance” 😭

[glacial warren]

Without this they will fade out and cease.

[spark valve]

womp womp

[glacial warren]

To translate, they need some manner of mental foothold in the minds of others to perpetuate.

[stray grove]

Ok so you concede

[glacial warren]

If they have no foothold, then they stop being anything at all, as they’re just an idea in someone else’s head. They need a ‘someone else’s head’ to exist in.

[stray grove]

Hmm

[glacial warren]

So, again, they specifically need contact with mortal Bugs. This usually comes in the form of them gathering worshippers, as they’re Gods. Mental Gods, but Gods nonetheless.

Radiance had her tribe and the Heart has its weird cult.

[stray grove]

💀

Yeah the tribe that stopped worshipping her and the cult that doesn’t worship it and is also not a distinct entity 👍

[glacial warren]

The cult worships the Heart. The whole point of their existence, of everything they do, is in the name of feeding and perpetuating it.

[stray grove]

The cult ARE the heart everything they do is in the service of THEMSELVES

[spark valve]

your leg doesn't worship you

[glacial warren]

Not directly. Again they’re moreso vessels for it, though it does directly inhabit the body of its key physical vessel, Grimm.

[stray grove]

“All and one clan and master”

[glacial warren]

The remaining members of the cult follow his direction, as he essentially has their God in the driver’s seat in his head.

[stray grove]

The Grimmkin are literally extensions of the Heart they don’t even have physical forms

[sinful nimbus]

GMS needs worship what was the widow cutscene about

[spark valve]

not only does brumm not worship the heart he actively works against it

[limpid summit]

Grimm is like a moth

[stray grove]

So even if we were to accept that they were distinct beings capable of worshipping it in that way their worship wouldn’t even count

[glacial warren]

They do manifest physically, they’re not Dream enemies.

[stray grove]

They’re ghosts

[limpid summit]

They’re like warrior dreams

[spark valve]

she wants her kids to be devoted little dolls she may not need anything from them she just wants it

[swift needle]

She doesn't need worship she needs life support

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t need it she’s just a lame

[glacial warren]

Ye moreso on this capacity. Physical specters.

[limpid summit]

“I just beat Khann!”
“Yeah whatever mom”

[stray grove]

She didn’t even beat Khann

[crystal marsh]

furthermore, Grimm calls the Heart the "heart of Grimm" implying that it is his

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong is about Ari's trauma from being forced to take piano classes as a kid 😔

[swift needle]

NO ONES beating my boi khan🥺

[fading shard]

this is wrong because of the white lady

[spark valve]

and about the suffering of the wealthy

[swift needle]

Except the citadel

Fuck them

[limpid summit]

I love the taste of coral

[glacial warren]

They do worship it, in their way. This is the purpose of the Ritual. They gather flame from ded place, Grimm does the unfunny and dies, Heart is fed, and its consciousness jumps to the new Grimmchild the Ritual produced.

[stray grove]

😭

[swift needle]

Corals contain iron so i agree

[stray grove]

Me when my leg walks me to the grocery store so I can buy food (it’s worshipping me in its own way)

[swift needle]

[fading shard]

could I perchance give you a nice crustnut in that case apple egg my friend

[limpid summit]

Sure man

[stray grove]

I love the taste of coral

[glacial warren]

Although it is funny when you realize the ‘Grimm’ we see is just a facade. Physically, he’s just a cloud of Grimmchildren fusing together to make themselves look like a single, bigger creature.

[swift needle]

Son?

[limpid summit]

Larp larp larp sahur

[swift needle]

💔

I have no fandom and i must larp

[limpid summit]

Anyway

[stray grove]

Fraudta bumta jane juliet

[limpid summit]

Blue vessel vs red vessel

[swift needle]

Urmm actually it's blue judas and red judas🤓 🤓

[limpid summit]

Why didn’t Rad just make semi-autonomous creations with little free agency but that could still sustain her like the Grimms

[stray grove]

We don’t know?

[limpid summit]

Is it a biblical thing like she made the moths with free will so it feels better when they worship

[glacial warren]

Because she’s a big dumb ball of light. The Heart was smarter and so outlived her.

[stray grove]

You could also ask “where did Radiance exist before creating the Moth Tribe”

[spark valve]

she probably didn't assume she had to

[swift needle]

In the end the heart will die too

Some day

[limpid summit]

Valid

[glacial warren]

Also this. She put all her eggs in one basket and didn’t ever make a backup plan if her number of minds to inhabit suddenly ran dry.

[stray grove]

The Heart’s goal is also different to hers

It just wants to live forever it doesn’t really care about influence or any of that nonsense

[glacial warren]

So when everyone forgot her, she had no way to recover herself or regain her foothold.

[swift needle]

Silly little moth goddess who's a bum

[stray grove]

The Heart also has to move around constantly

[limpid summit]

Why do we complain about HB inflation in SS when they only actually added like 1 new one

[spark valve]

who is we

[swift needle]

we?

[limpid summit]

We

[stray grove]

I have never seen anyone complain about that

[limpid summit]

Yes WE

[floral quiver]

Why would she?

She's a god.

Her worshippers are true and loyal.

[limpid summit]

Dude I see this all the time

[stray grove]

??? Ok bro

[glacial warren]

True. The Heart opts for a more nomadic lifestyle, having its weird circus cult move from place to place. There’s always empires falling and crumbling, so the Heart need simply relocate and sustain off of the inevitability of change, of an ending.

So long as there’s two Bugs left on the planet, someone is gonna want someone dead.

[swift needle]

Nah it js sucks dying kingdom ez

[sinful nimbus]

what is higher being inflation

[limpid summit]

So the heart…readjusts?

Huh

Noted

[swift needle]

Idk

[sinful nimbus]

i mean silksong's higher being sucks so sure

[glacial warren]

Yep. Radiance just slapped herself in one localized spot of power with one group of dedicated Bugs to worship and remember her and became content. This is why it all went south for her.

[near jasper]

whats the topic rn

[floral quiver]

I don't think the Heart could be sustained by that small a population. Like, it goes after dead kingdoms after all.

[swift needle]

Grimm troupe bla bla bla

[glacial warren]

Well yes but you get the gist. The Heart on some level knows change, death, and conflict are inevitable, and roams so as to feed off of that. The world isn’t a static place, so the Heart capitalizes on this inevitability. Free, infinite food source that can never be exhausted.

[floral quiver]

Oh totally

[swift needle]

Not infinite

Every kingdom will die

Including the heart

[glacial warren]

In a way, the Heart is like a scavenger. It is content to feed off of the rot and scraps left behind by others.

[spark valve]

silksong, a game about maternal instincts causing first two theocratic authoritarian regimes then the apocalypse

[near jasper]

Ok void

[swift needle]

Void kingdom?

There dead right

🥺

[near jasper]

Yes

[glacial warren]

Void’s active worshippers have long since died out, yeah.

[sinful nimbus]

The final boss has a mother in the background so it comes full circle thematically though

[swift needle]

Ya so the heart isn't inf

[glacial warren]

Though the Void itself remains. Nothing can hurt it in a capacity that’d matter.

[stray grove]

First Light 🤓

[floral quiver]

To be replaced by new kingdoms as long as there are still bugs. It would take a world ending catastrophe to end the cycle of kingdoms

[sinful nimbus]

HK was a much better deconstruction of gender

[stray grove]

Unintentionally

[spark valve]

it's just so lame

[swift needle]

But still not inf right

[floral quiver]

Technically

But effectively infinite

[glacial warren]

Technically indefinite so long as all life on the world doesn’t end all at the same time.

[near jasper]

If theres a Worldwide apocalipse the troupe is dead too

[glacial warren]

Ye if the world ends and all life is stamped out, the cycle is broken and the Heart will at last perish.

[limpid summit]

Talking abt the heart like it’s Grindle and not tuff as hell

[swift needle]

Here's my anti void technique i haven't used since the heian era

[glacial warren]

Divine scavenger, but still a scavenger.

[near jasper]

Talking like grindle Isnt tuff as hell

[spark valve]

maybe wl is actually just stupid and senile and has been all along

[glacial warren]

White Lady is just content to chill. She’s doing fine, i’m sure.

Meanwhile outside her room everyone she knew is dead.

[swift needle]

WHITE LADY ROOOTTT THEORYYYY!!!!!

I was then shot 45 times

[near jasper]

White lady is obviously a wyrm dude

[sinful nimbus]

What if the first light was like two giant flowers and then the Blackwyrm came along and stabbed them while using the void to help destroy them 🤔

TC hire me

[spark valve]

no furiousfusion was right the whole time

[limpid summit]

Did Alubas come from the Lands Serene

[floral quiver]

Also, the White Lady being a physical thing affects her godly physiology and needs.

The Radiance needee mental space, while the more physical gods crave worship but don't need mental space. (I'm not really counting the Heart as truly "physical" like The Lady, The King or Silk)

[light verge]

is this even Silksong lore anymore or are we just ad libbing

[floral quiver]

It's Silksong lore cause "How the gods seem to work" is a part of Silksong that can be discussed

[glacial warren]

The Heart is more akin to Radiance due to being a mind construct. It only exists physically due to creating a physical vessel whose mind it inhabits.

[stray grove]

Who cares there are no mods here

[glacial warren]

Meanwhile the Grand Mother just sort of went on a power trip, got betrayed by the animals she evolved into sentience, and then got put to sleep for several eras.

[stray grove]

GMS is a bum ass fraud who couldn’t even be called a HB if not for the explicit confirmation that she was

[glacial warren]

Also true. She is w e a k.

[floral quiver]

Like, one of the big "Silk is worse than the other gods" traits is that while all gods crave and sometimes require mental space and worship, Silk is ready and willing to force worship and obedience because she likes it rather than because she'll literally die.

[light verge]

girl doesn’t even compare to unn, who can convert essence to soul

[near jasper]

Murglin wouldve killed her if she couldnt fly away

[glacial warren]

Unn is just content to literally sleep away any possible threat. She’s of the mindset of ‘hunker down and wait for the storm to pass. I’ll outlive whatever’s throwing a tantrum out there.’

[floral quiver]

Okay no. Silk is more powerful and impressive than Unn.

Unn can't affect an entire region.

[near jasper]

To our knowledge