sk-lore

[whole holly]

that's just you projecting

[near jasper]

Gms' entire character is based off her being unable to have children

[foggy stratus]

It feels like you've insulted more than give facts.

[sharp pawn]

theyre made through forceful evolution

does that qualify as being her direct kids

[whole holly]

conventionally, yes

[trim flame]

I consider that a compliment

[floral quiver]

They were so furious that they tried everything they could to take her down. Because she wasnt their mother. They arent divine children, they're animals forced to fit her whims

Like, why do you think they rebelled?

[whole holly]

Weavers inherited silksong's equivalent of genetic traits from GMS

[sharp pawn]

they wanted to rule the kingdom themselves

[near jasper]

That too

[trim flame]

Does silkson say it's genetic trait

[whole holly]

i already said, abused child can in fact not consider her biological mother a mother

[whole holly]

definition of genetic traits do

[near jasper]

If my skin evolves a spider is it my child

[floral quiver]

No?

She effectively took random animals and genetically engineered them to have those traits. That's not motherhood.

[trim flame]

Definition of insects say they cant use soul to fire black fireballs

[sharp pawn]

shes not their biological mother though

i mean she basically just molded them to the shape she liked

[whole holly]

like i said, conventional rules partially apply, but inheritance of genetic abilities is universal

[sharp pawn]

and because the process involved silk they also got the silk abilities (i think, im not sure about this one)

[whole holly]

her biology is her silk and abilities, though, weavers partially have grand mother silk's biology

[floral quiver]

They didnt inherit! They were changed when already alive.

[near jasper]

If I raise a bug to have thumbs its not my child its a bug I bred to have thumbs

[floral quiver]

Then lied to!

[sharp pawn]

if i get an organ transplant does that make the organ donor my sibling

[trim flame]

Weavers are evolved pharlids and pharlids had their own biological parents whom conceived them

[whole holly]

that rule is too conventional to apply weavers though, grand mother silk clearly considered herself mother because of that fact

[whole holly]

you were talking about genetics, not conception

[near jasper]

She considered herself a mother to weavers

But So do most people with Pets

[whole holly]

if organ donor imbues her godly abilities in you and considers herself you mother because she shared her part of biology with you, yes

[whole holly]

weavers aren't pets

[sharp pawn]

doesnt matter if i want it or not if the person says shes my mother shes my mother???????

[floral quiver]

... that doesnt matter.

What Silk thinks doesnt matter because she's wrong.

She's not their mother. She's a monster who took unaware animals and forced sapience on them, forced them to change to fit her whim.

[near jasper]

Isnt the point of an organ donation to give the person being transplanted on abilities their body lost from organ failure

[whole holly]

again, we are talking about genetic motherhood, she did give her genetics to pharlids to achieve motherhood

[whole holly]

from genetic standpoint, sure

[sharp pawn]

its pseudo motherhood at best

[floral quiver]

No she didnt. She changed them when already alive with eldritch magics to fit what she wanted.

That happened to have similar traits to herself. But not literally her divine genes or something.

[floral quiver]

At best

[sharp pawn]

im pretty sure grandma silk is made up of silk

[whole holly]

i was arguing from genetic perspective

[near jasper]

I do not consider a soul part of a genotype

[sharp pawn]

but at the same time im sure she has an unlimited amount

[whole holly]

they are literally her divine genes though....

[whole holly]

tell me genotype of GMS, then

[near jasper]

None

[floral quiver]

Gods dont have genes

[sharp pawn]

its just her power

silk is made of soul

[floral quiver]

Gods aren't mortals

[sharp pawn]

all she did was use soul to alter their bodies

[floral quiver]

They dont have genes or DNA or blood

[whole holly]

what does that have to do with genetics

[floral quiver]

Gods dont have genes.

Why do you think gods have genes?

[whole holly]

in world of silksong, genetics may not be mentioned but nature definitely is

[sharp pawn]

would a surgeon be my dad if i got a surgery from him

[floral quiver]

That doesnt imply genes

Especially when it comes to a god made of silk

[whole holly]

they have godly nature, genes are biological information that can be passed down, gms did that

[floral quiver]

No she didnt. At all

[near jasper]

The information wasnt passed down

[sharp pawn]

the only thing she passes down is silk

not how to use it

nothing about how it works

[near jasper]

It was forced onto the body of a pharlid

[whole holly]

how do weavers use it then

[near jasper]

They learned

[whole holly]

that's not an argument

[sharp pawn]

studying

fuck you think all the weavenests are for

[whole holly]

with abilities they inherited

[whole holly]

they have ability to channel soul into thread

[near jasper]

Yes

Gms did that

[floral quiver]

And even that doesnt have to be something she, like, gave them of herself rather than just manipulating them magically to be able to spin soul holding thread using their natural traits as spiders

[sharp pawn]

if you have an organ inserted into you correctly i think your body adapts to using it

[near jasper]

If you get cancer from radiation you are not a child of john radiation

[whole holly]

a gene is just a unit of information you guys. If Grand Mother Silk passed her "Nature" (silk control) into the Pharlids, and that information stayed with them, she passed on the functional equivalent of a genome.

[near jasper]

It wasnt passed down it was forced onto the body of a random spider thing

[floral quiver]

Genes are specific biological things.

If theyre not those specific biological things they arent genes

[sharp pawn]

GMS doesnt show anything similar to the weavers she only haunts people (which weavers cant do) and pulls objects with silk

weavers learned every ability themselves

[whole holly]

If GMS changed the Pharlids so fundamentally that their children are also born as Weavers, then my assessment holds weight. In genetic science, if you permanently change the Information of a lineage, you have effectively become the "Mother" of that new species, regardless of how "forced" the initial start was, that's important thing to consider people

[floral quiver]

... and thats not biological motherhood. Thats metaphorical

[near jasper]

You are not a mother if you breed a new dog species into existence

[whole holly]

i am using functional definition of genes, which only applies to silksong, as literal definition won't

[near jasper]

You're a dog breeder

[whole holly]

not equivalent, do you inject genetic material into dogs?

[floral quiver]

So something your pulling out of effectively nowhere.

You've made up a thing and are treating it as if its a real concrete part of the setting

[sharp pawn]

their DNA is altered that doesnt mean they have GMS's DNA

[foggy stratus]

Once again I say, if i inject my magical god flesh into a chimp snd it grows two feet taller and human vocal cords, is it my son?

[floral quiver]

No.

[sharp pawn]

if i fuck around with your DNA your kids will obviously have stuff from said DNA

[floral quiver]

It's an experiment

[near jasper]

Weavers have gms dna the same way humans share dna with bananas

[whole holly]

If the Weavers' silk and sapience don't come from GMS's 'Nature' (her version of genes), then where did it come from? If she 'molded' them, she used genetic Information. What do you call a being that provides the heritable information for a new species if not a Progenitor??????

[near jasper]

If she molded them she didnt use genetic information

[whole holly]

they inherit her nature to channel soul into thread, which is shared nature

[floral quiver]

... you assume that bugs have genes.

[whole holly]

they have nature, that's why functional definition of genes is exactly that, nature that's passed down

[sinful nimbus]

Evolution in HK exists so to some extent heritable information does exist

[near jasper]

Bugs have genes in hollow knight

Gms isnt a bug

[sinful nimbus]

I agree that at least genetically GMS is their mother but I would extend that to her socially being their mother as well

[sharp pawn]

humans have experimented with injecting genes and shit

[floral quiver]

... why?

[whole holly]

which GMS has passed down to Weavers

[whole holly]

she has heritable information

[sinful nimbus]

That's how NPCs treat her for one

For two it fits in with Silksong's theme of motherhood

[near jasper]

Changing somethings dna isnt passing down dna

[whole holly]

that's distinct from passing down heritable information

[sinful nimbus]

A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.
I mean like

[whole holly]

in GMS's case it simply was

[sharp pawn]

what the fuck are genes if not heritable information

[sinful nimbus]

She's called their mother a bunch

[near jasper]

How

[whole holly]

she molded them using heritable information, she didn't just give them haircut guys...lol

[sharp pawn]

that could just be from her reputation

[sinful nimbus]

What reputation

[sharp pawn]

like if someone was going around calling herself the mother of a bunch of kids some would assume she is their mother

[near jasper]

Copying your genes and putting them onto a different being isnt passing a gene down

[sinful nimbus]

Uh yeah but the kids say ts too

Divine children and allat

[whole holly]

We all agree they inherited her 'Nature.' My functional definition is just pointing out that Nature is indeed Genetic Information in the Silksong universe. If 'Nature' is what makes a Weaver different from a Pharlid, and that Nature came from GMS, then she is the biological source of the Weaver species. You guys are arguing the semantics of the word 'gene,' but the inheritance of traits is exactly what I'm describing....

[sharp pawn]

when do the weavers call her mother

[floral quiver]

The biggest part of the Weavers as a people is the knowledge that Silk is not genetically their mother.

They didnt inherit things, things were forced on to them after they were born.

If they were genetically her children they wouldn't have turned on her basically to the last. Because their issue was that she said they were her direct children and divine when they weren't.

[sinful nimbus]

They call themselves divine children because their claim to divinity was GMS being their mother

[whole holly]

dude, If I copy a chapter of my book and paste it into yours, that chapter's Author is still me... You didn't write it, you're just the vessel for it. If the Weavers' ability to control silk is a Copy of GMS’s nature, then she is indeed the Genetic Source of that trait. In biology, this is Horizontal Gene Transfer, and it is a recognized form of passing genes down. It’s just not the 'traditional' way.

[sinful nimbus]

Of course the relationship between the two was based off of a lie and there are some weavers that don't consider her their mother like First Sinner but she was labelled an apostate

[floral quiver]

... and they turned on her after learning they weren't when she said they were

[sinful nimbus]

Where are you getting this from fam

[sharp pawn]

well i think Sinner is the one who had the biggest problem with it

most rebelled because they wanted a chance at ruling Pharloom

they lulled her to sleep and then when she woke up they just tried to run away

[sinful nimbus]

GMS probably wasn't that nice of a leader either

[sharp pawn]

well yea but i doubt the Weavers cared for how she ruled

[sinful nimbus]

They call her rule a "web" and "service eternal"

[floral quiver]

The entirety of Weaver society turned on her, built boltholes and bunkers and weapons and traps across their kingdom, because she lied to them and they were furious.

[sinful nimbus]

They kinda did that's why they made weavenests to rebel against her

[near jasper]

What do you think is written on Phantom's organ

[sharp pawn]

i think those were either failsafes or a permanent end to her

so they didnt have to keep singing to her to keep her asleep

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner was involved with the weavenests and was only imprisoned later after GMS was sealed because she was an apostate to the Citadel

[whole holly]

Let's be real right now, Being genetically related doesn't stop a rebellion, if anything, it makes the 'Divine Lie' more insulting... If GMS used her own 'Nature' to overwrite theirs, she essentially Colonized their biology... They didn't turn on her because they weren't related, they turned on her because the relationship was Invasive... She forced her 'Genes' into them to make them like her, and they rejected the Ownership that came with that shared biology... but your argument isn't Genetic Motherhood

[floral quiver]

...

[whole holly]

...

[sinful nimbus]

This is who's on my side I'm cooked 🥀

[sharp pawn]

lmao

[whole holly]

weavers didn't turn on her because GMS wasn't related to weavers........

[sinful nimbus]

That's true

[sharp pawn]

werent the weavenests made while she was sleeping

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenest Cindril's explicit goal was escaping GMS's "silken sight" and "web and service eternal" and Weavenest Atla's explicit goal was escaping a "web born of our naive foundation"

[sinful nimbus]

No because Weavenest Cindril ran from GMS

[whole holly]

again your argument is social motherhood for the most part...

[sinful nimbus]

If she was neutralized she wouldn't be an issue until much later at which poin the weavers would've already died because the haunting was a result of the conductor's rule

[floral quiver]

Their foundation of assuming they were divine

Thats why they were naive

[sinful nimbus]

They kept claiming they were divine after the foundation of the Citadel but that could've been intentional deceit sure

[floral quiver]

They believed the lie of their divinity

[sharp pawn]

well i mean if you have godly powers youre still divine

silk and the weavers are still the only ones who can use silk

[whole holly]

so you are saying they conflate silk/genetics and divinity, which isn't really GMS's fault, that's like getting mad at your mother because she called you prettiest boy/girl/child in the world

[floral quiver]

It's obviously intentional deceit. How do you think they got people to join the Citadel?

They claimed false divinity so bugs would do what they wanted

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

[whole holly]

and if GMS didn't pass down her eqivalent of genes, how did Herrah("Weaver who didn't inherit genetics") pass it down to hornet?

[floral quiver]

No. I'm saying that GMS didnt make them of herself because she didnt make them divine.

The Weavers were just as mortal as all other bugs.

[sharp pawn]

how do you know she didnt inherit genetics

was that mentioned

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[whole holly]

what are you talking?

[floral quiver]

Any bug can manipulate silk with practice

[sharp pawn]

words

[floral quiver]

It's not inherently special

[sharp pawn]

im reffering to Herrah

[near jasper]

How long have stiltkin existed for in pharloom

[sharp pawn]

uhhhh
No

im pretty sure its not

possible to just learn it

[whole holly]

hornet's weavers genetic would somehow trace back to Grand Mother Silk, regardless of what your point is

[sharp pawn]

"They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell."
its naturally produced by her

[floral quiver]

Yes? Thats how the warriors of the Citadel use silk abilities. They learned to manipulate it through training and practice.
And theyre normal bugs

[sinful nimbus]

GMS altered their genetic information (demonstrably true as weaver descendants retain weaver qualities), the altering was done with her own silk and made the weavers much more similar to GMS which is enough for the game (but maybe not the players) to consider GMS their mother even if they aren't conventional children (which is where First Sinner comes in)

[sharp pawn]

i mean how do you know Herrah didnt have silk abilities

[sharp pawn]

isnt the Whitewards whole thing inserting silk forcefully into creatures

[whole holly]

i didn't say that, my point is that if GMS isn't genetic mother of herrah, herrah wouldn't have passed down weaver genetics to hornet, hornet being part weaver relies of GMS being genetic mother

[floral quiver]

The game doesnt consider her their mother.

Her not being their mother is an important part of their whole part of the story

[whole holly]

thank you for clarifying my point so much more

[whole holly]

like i said for thousandth time, this argument isn't about social motherhood but genetic motherhood

[sinful nimbus]

She's referred to as her mother multiple times and the games themes center around motherhood and parental abuse

[whole holly]

as well as different types of motherhood and how much it varies

[floral quiver]

And I dont think you're correct about that.

The motherhood your discussing is entirely metaphorical, not literal. And it not being literal is a cornerstone of like, half the plot.

[whole holly]

sounds like your clankerslop didn't work after all

[sharp pawn]

well sure yea from some points of view she could be seen as their mother but i dont think she is objectively their straight up mother

[whole holly]

????

how is heritable information not literal?

[sharp pawn]

wow i cant see themes for shit lmao

[floral quiver]

Someone Who manipulates something else that's already alive isn't a literal mother. They're metaphorically a mother at best

[sinful nimbus]

I mean its mostly with Lace/Phantom and the Weavers

There's some other stuff in there

[sharp pawn]

Hornets also got mommy issues

[whole holly]

Transformation = Progenitor

[floral quiver]

And her not being their literal born from her divine womb mother is a major reason they spent blood and tears putting her into the ground

[sharp pawn]

though that was the only way for Hornet to be born anyway so its not as bad

[floral quiver]

Not a literal mother

The literalness is important

The literalness is essential for the Weavers part in the setting and plot

[whole holly]

define "literal mother" for me

[floral quiver]

A mother who birthed a child that did not exist before directly.

[sharp pawn]

okay so Grandma silk is made up of silk
she used silk to turn Pharlids into Weavers
i dont think she ever got rid of that silk
so yes part of her is in Weavers

so i guess one could say they are related

while not completely, they still are

[whole holly]

The themes of 'parental abuse' only work if the link is Literal... If she’s just a random 'metaphorical' mother, the betrayal isn't that deep...

she provided the Heritable Nature they use to exist as Weavers. If the trait is in the DNA (or the Silk-equivalent), the motherhood is Literal Information Transfer

[floral quiver]

Only if you consider "we were told we were literal divine beings birthed from the loins of a Goddess. That wasnt true, we are mortals like everyone else and only like this because a god had a whim one day" to be not too deep.

[whole holly]

If a transformation is heritable, it is Literal Inheritance.

[sharp pawn]

i think Silk is their partial mother but not their complete mother

[whole holly]

like i said they are ones that conflated silk/heritable information as divinity, i already told you that argument and you ignored it

[whole holly]

.

[floral quiver]

Because she told them they were literally born from her. That they didnt exist before.

They were not

They were born animals and changed

[whole holly]

that doesn't matter in their genetic makeup, they do pass down weaver nature

[floral quiver]

Weaver nature is not Silk nature.

[sharp pawn]

it partially is

[whole holly]

Weaver nature comes from GMS... everything special that comes from being a Weaver is sourced from GMS

[sharp pawn]

well isnt the only thing that makes them special the ability to use silk

/grow silk within their shell

[whole holly]

yeah, sourced from who?

[floral quiver]

But not from her nature.

Her nature isnt to manipulate Silk. She is silk. Like, metaphysically.

[sharp pawn]

well yea grandma

but they dont just have Grandmas genetics

[whole holly]

those aren't mutually exclusive... how do you think she causes haunting or even ascension...

[sharp pawn]

like i said, shes their partial mother

but theyre still mostly Pharlid

[trim flame]

Bro are you guys still arguing

[whole holly]

mostly pharlid...?

[sharp pawn]

wait actually

[whole holly]

are you still believing clankerslop?

[sharp pawn]

Pharlids are driven by instinct

[trim flame]

Quiet mush brain

[sharp pawn]

so for the kids of Weavers to be able to think normally they would have to have their whole brains genetics altered

i think

[whole holly]

clearly you are projecting your self-image onto me

[sharp pawn]

can we not insult eachother

based on a debate

its just arguing over a game

[trim flame]

I want to keep my braincells with me

[sharp pawn]

wat

[floral quiver]

I'm just confounded that you're using some definition of genetics you made up to prove some point.

[whole holly]

i made up heritable information? functional definition of genetics literally is self-defining, genetics do have function, functional definition of genetics is heritable information....

i hope now that i clarified definition up, you found it more constructive argument

[frosty gate]

Honestly fuck yeah, we know like 3 things about Nyleth and I'm pushing it, there's so many things left untold there

[whole holly]

slick

[unique tangle]

Me when my name is Nyleth and my biggest gimmick is having this weird power called “the voice” but TC refuses to elaborate on what it is or why it’s special or what the point of it is

We know as much about the voice now as we did 6 years ago when it was mentioned in Seth’s riddle

[whole holly]

i just assume it is her screeching, lol

[whole holly]

Seth being empowered by "the Voice"?

and Nyleth being "Voice of the Woods"

[trim flame]

How did the water in the ugly areas get infected

[trim flame]

Nyleths a chicken plant

[unique tangle]

It’s funny that Seth doesn’t even mention the voice ingame anymore

[whole holly]

truth nuke

[unique tangle]

So who knows if he’s even related to it anymore

[edgy nebula]

it's scrapped

[unique tangle]

All that’s left of the voice is a mention in the flower enemies

[whole holly]

i think needolin dialogue has it, but it's not meant to be literal

[unique tangle]

His needolin dialogue doesn’t specifically mention the voice, tho he mentions “guardians call” which may possibly be it?

[whole holly]

i mean one of pollenica but yeah ig

[unique tangle]

Either way it’s clearly not a very complete nor finished concept

And it’s confusing

[whole holly]

maybe it will be expanded on upon in DLC

[unique tangle]

Yeah the flower enemies are the only ones that mention it directly

[floral quiver]

You're using a definition of genetics that actively lessens a major part of the story.

That they could be said to be related by a definition that includes them being forced to chang while actively alive is a meaningless distinction because the game considers that to not count as motherhood narratively.

That they're technically functionally related does not count because functional relationships do not make one a mother in the fiction of the game

Love and respect and care make one a mother in the fiction of Silksong.

[whole holly]

i disagree, i believe it strengthens it but i guess we will have to agree to disagree, even though Narratively, the game is about the rejection of abusive 'creators' who claim the title of Mother without the love to back it up. But the reason the abuse is so effective is because of the Genetic/Functional Reality.

[whole holly]

Nyleth being voice of wood, most likely was significant part of her character

like how Karmelita is Skarrsinger, Khann also had Choral Tower instead of Coral Tower, i guess old hearts evolved into something else in final game

[edgy nebula]

karm was originally hunter queen carmelita

[unique tangle]

She was described as the operatic queen

[whole holly]

oh interesting, but i assume Song was more personalized generally than it''s current state in game

[whole holly]

wow

i think Nyleth's genre was Folk Music for sure

[edgy nebula]

oh that i didnt know

[unique tangle]

I forgot which TC post it was but I remember it in some post

Lemme see if I can find it

[edgy nebula]

nyleth is probably a hippie

[whole holly]

in my opinion, i mean

[whole holly]

that's what i love about her, Hippie being protected by warrior

and parallel with Monomon and Quirrel i love it

[floral quiver]

@whole holly i'm actively and genuinely curious. If a god used magic to take a person and give them physical traits that matched or were similar to their own, but the magic was genuine reality warping that just popped the traits into existance from nowhere like they had always been, would they be genetically parent and child, despite no familial ties existing beforehand?

[whole holly]

I believe You're describing a scenario where a God 'retroactively' becomes a parent. If the magic is 'Genuine Reality Warping,' then the Biological Fact would be true

Vessels are born of God and Void, Ghost are also later described as Soul of Wyrm, Soul of Root, Heart of Void

their heritable information(in this case that they can only inherit) is Void who is not parent conventionally nor can't be one, but Void is also regarded as key part of their creation

[near jasper]

How long have stiltkin existed for in pharloom

[whole holly]

here Social Parenthood doesn't matter, Inherited Information does for the Vessels

[floral quiver]

So their biological inheritance is overwritten by the metaphysical inheritance of Void?

Because without that they wouldn't be vessels?

[whole holly]

well, yeah, but Void isn't solely metaphysical

[edgy nebula]

likely pre-citadel

[near jasper]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

i dont think we get a real timeline though

theyre pretty closed off from the main story

[floral quiver]

We dont

We dont get a definit timeline for anything

Thus why I've been getting into virtual shouting matches. A lack of definite timelines for anything leads to most of "when why and how" being up to personal interpretation.

[near jasper]

Its weird the stiltkin wrote in citadel/pilgrim common

[floral quiver]

Could be Citadel imperialism, could be "we didnt want to come up with a language recognition mechanic so everyone speaks and writes the same, it's a concete so we need to do less work"

[near jasper]

Not everyone writes in the same language in pharloom

Hornet just knows somehow

[floral quiver]

Could you post more Citadel script examples, please?

Trying to do comparisons

This is my jam 🙂

Anthropology dork

[near jasper]

(organ one is debatable as its not readable but it does match a lore tablet perfectly for some reason)

[whole holly]

omg really? i am psychology dork

[near jasper]

1. Organ
2. Memorium
3. Pilgrims rest(far fields)
4. Learned pilgrim spot(marrow)
5. Nyleth shrine
6. Bellhart

[floral quiver]

Alright, looking at things it's very similar but distinct. Very obviously an offshoot or bastardization of Citadel script.

My assumption? During the time before mechanization waste destroyed Bilewater's ecosystem, the inhabitants wrote in standard Citadel script. Over the centuries of degradation and squalor that script was steadily changed thanks to the lack of people learning "proper" Citadel writing, but it was widespread enough that the offshoot lasted to the modern day because people who write need a script and a widespread one was still around

[near jasper]

Bilewater's script seems relatively simpler than proper citadel script regarding pictograms but they also do say stuff that is less easy to depict like hatred and soul and light so idk

[floral quiver]

Those kinds of minor changes are what makes all the difference in these kinds of situations.

[near jasper]

Yk if the conductors kept it a secret from the vaultkeepers what the true purpose of the citadel was why did they let them hear the sacred cylinder

Imagine spending your whole life on the citadel and the highest ranks only perk is telling you "yeah it was all fake lol"

[floral quiver]

Not fake. The consequences and need are very much real. The song does what it says it does and bad stuff happens when it fails

Just compartmentalized.

Such knowledge is best left out of the hands of lesser members of the sect

[late goblet]

Ok so the more I have been thinking about it, the more confused I have been getting with understanding GMS's motivations for creating the Weavers and the Silk beings (Lace and Phantom). Im trying to reason with why exactly Lace would choose to save Hornet and go down into the abyss with her mother, and why her mother would spin the ball of Silk in the Sea of Void in order to safe Lace

Hornet says that Pale Beings only allow two options: devotion or destruction (with probably the only exception being the Pale King and herself.) With that in mind, does GMS see Lace and Phantom as her actual children that she loves? Or does she see them only as backup worshipers to try and make up for the Weavers than rebelled and ran away?

If she does view Lace as her child, then why would Lace want to save Hornet and slice her mother's arm off? And why didn't she view the Weavers in the same way when she created them? If Lace is a follower to her, why did she bother to create the ball of Silk in the Sea of Void to try and save her? Surely it would be easier to try and get herself to escape, recuperate away from the Citadel, and then just create new followers, no?

Im just so confused as to what her motivations actually are cause it doesn't really make sense no matter how I put it. Maybe there are parts Im getting wrong? Please help me understand cause Im so lost 💀

[near jasper]

Gms did see lace and Phantom as her children, she is also a horrible mother

[floral quiver]

She actively loves lace.

That doesnt change that she's a capricious, uncaring monster who expects absolute and total obedience with no expectations of care.

[near jasper]

Well lace at least

Maybe

I dont actually know when the pilgrim/citadel script came in

Thats from a pilgrim

[late goblet]

I never really sensed that GMS loved Lace like a mother would, maybe there's something I missed? Or she's just that crappy of a parent

[near jasper]

She does love lace

[near jasper]

She originally saw the weavers as her children too, she stopped after the rebellion

[near jasper]

We're gonna ignore widow because her relationship with gms is weird and/or does not exist

[floral quiver]

Note that the Weavers were a secretive people. Weavenest Murglin is deep in the hidden parts of Bilewater. The people of what would become Bilewater most likely didnt even know the Weaver's bunker was there.

[late goblet]

I guess I missed that

[trim flame]

Widow was loyal

[floral quiver]

Unknown.

[near jasper]

One thing I wanna ask

[trim flame]

?

[near jasper]

When we bound first sinner and widow while they were "alive" we got a memory sequence

Why didnt we get one with gms on weaver Queen?

[floral quiver]

There's little in the game that speaks to Widow being a loyal daughter rather than being tortured and brainwashed into being loyal.

[trim flame]

still loyal tho

[floral quiver]

Well yeah. Now

[trim flame]

gms is silk itself

[near jasper]

Im not sure gms is aware of widow's existence in the present

[floral quiver]

Her loyalty is unquestionable with pins in her back and her mask forcibly removed

[trim flame]

i dont understand the fluff in her face

[floral quiver]

She is. Widow maintained Bellhart for her.

[near jasper]

Its just a random piece of cloth she put on her face

[trim flame]

theres also a theory the weavers did it cuz she was loyal

[near jasper]

Why not just haunt bellhart normally

[floral quiver]

I find that less than compelling thanks to the lack of more definite evidence in the game

Plus I like a rebel Weaver tortured into blind loyalty

[near jasper]

Weavers lobotimizing widow cutscene in the files:

[floral quiver]

Cutscene or sprite sheet?

Important distinction

[near jasper]

Lemme go check

[trim flame]

theres no evidence for most stuff

[floral quiver]

I know, which is why I find the bloody minded certainty of this place so frustrating.

[trim flame]

Developers know it keeps the game alive

[floral quiver]

Yeah. 🙁

[near jasper]

Ok I found something else thats interesting

[trim flame]

speak

[near jasper]

Cut needolin for skynx

Its using styx's sssss

Doesnt that break the rule that needolin translates what the singer says into the user's normal language

[floral quiver]

You mean this?

[near jasper]

That

Ye

[near jasper]

Wait thats the citadel script being used by weavers in the bottom right?

Damn

[floral quiver]

Inconclusive.

Could be the Weavers directly, could be the Citadel. We dont know how thos sprites go together.

[floral quiver]

It's Citadel script. How it relates is unknown

[late goblet]

The hell is happening here

[near jasper]

Like how the cogwork bugs stop stuttering

[near jasper]

Spritesheet

[floral quiver]

A Weaver is losing her mask

[near jasper]

Ok that spritesheet gets weirder everytime I look at it

Why are there servitors and normal bugs in the same spot

[floral quiver]

Probably why it's cut

[near jasper]

With the whiteward contraption™

[floral quiver]

Unknown

[late goblet]

Ok I have another great confusion of the story and it has to do with Act3 itself

What tf does Hornet need the 4th heart for and why

If we only need 3 hearts why does the game give you the option to go for all 4

AND WHY DOES HORNET USE IT AS A TROPHY like hello????

Is she a psychopath or am I being stupid

[near jasper]

She gets the 4th heart for experience

[floral quiver]

She's a blooded warrior princess with a violent streak and a sense of martial honor.

Displaying trophies from hardwon fights shows honor and respect to those defeaded and brings glory to Hornet herself.

[near jasper]

The trophy thing shes just like that

Also technically theres a small benefit to every heart death so you feel less bad

[late goblet]

Benefit?

That's the other thing that confuses me

[near jasper]

Very small but yes

[dim cloak]

Isn't lace hornets aunt if you look at the family tree

[late goblet]

You can say Nyleth and Khann are already dead or whatever

[floral quiver]

Taking grisly trophies from worthy foes is a time Honored tradition among blooded fighters like Hornet

[near jasper]

Gp and karmelitta wanted to die and you sped it up, nyleth frees seth, khann would be a tyrant when he revives from water

[late goblet]

Karmelitta is on her way out and I think would rather die in battle than of old age?

[floral quiver]

It shows her prowess physically

[near jasper]

Yes

[late goblet]

Except the fact that she's the thibng that sustains the life force of the Skarr and the Far Fields

[floral quiver]

And sets fear to any enemies who emcroach on her den

[late goblet]

So like

[near jasper]

The skarr were dying eitherway

[late goblet]

If Karmelitta is the option for the 4th heart, the Far Fields dies because Hornet needed battle XP or smth?

[floral quiver]

Yes. And she's dying

[floral quiver]

Yes

Explicitly

[near jasper]

2 are unhaunted so we can assume a lot of them are husks

[floral quiver]

Hornet is in it for the thrill of the fight

For blood and glory against a mighty foe

[near jasper]

And I dont theyll be able to rebuild when karmelitta is really on her death bed

[late goblet]

Literally for the love of the game 😭

[near jasper]

Considering her singing united tribes theyll probably split up and die

[late goblet]

The Green Prince is worse to me though

[late goblet]

Gurr and the other marked one?

[near jasper]

Yeah

[late goblet]

Ah ok

[late goblet]

Cause at best it just feels like an assisted suicide

[floral quiver]

She's already dying. Why not let her, for one last glorious moment, step back to the true majesty and power of the Last Queen of the Skarr?

[late goblet]

At worst Hornet lied, invaded his mind, and killed a depressed man when he got upset at her for lying and tresspassing his memories

[near jasper]

Im just going the assume gp liked dying fighting better than letting himself starve in verdania

[floral quiver]

Warriors are like that

[near jasper]

Yeah

[late goblet]

Ok I can accept this

[floral quiver]

They have different mindsets from most modern people

[candid linden]

why is the bird that gives you faydown cloak so terrifying

[late goblet]

I can't really accept the Green Prince though

[near jasper]

Wdym

[candid linden]

the call it makes

it makes you feel like youre about to get cooked

[late goblet]

He's clearly mourning and in terrible pain and needs help

Obv Silksong isn't real life but

In the original game they touched on this idea with the Nailmaster

It feels really weird they didn't here with the situation is much more grave

[foggy fractal]

we should cancel team cherry

[late goblet]

You just lie to him "I wont disturb you anymore" then invade his mind and kill him

[near jasper]

Who hasnt tbf

:3

[late goblet]

And Hornet's journal entry of the Clover Dancers is ???????

I really feel like Hornet might a psychopath

[near jasper]

She is a little

[foggy fractal]

blame it on her age shes too old

[near jasper]

Hornet has killed at 5 thousand bugs id say at least she is a bit insane

[foggy fractal]

Mycledra what do we think of the slabfly journal entries

[late goblet]

I get it

I mean they captured her and stripped her naked

Cosplayed as her and made her stuff dirty

[near jasper]

-# Except when they dont

[late goblet]

And are just nasty in general

[floral quiver]

He knew he was dead. He recognized she was there to take his life. Thus those moments being acknowledged as his last before he dies in his homeland.

[late goblet]

But Hornet killing him just for the love of the game is really just... no

[floral quiver]

Yeah I really think that the Prison escape should have been a mandatory thing

[near jasper]

Its too easy to miss if you dont know about it

How many flies appear like 3?

[late goblet]

5 iirc

[foggy fractal]

how many appear as in how many there are in total?

[near jasper]

3

[late goblet]

Oh

[near jasper]

Before you enter the slab yes

[late goblet]

Dunno where I got 5 from

[floral quiver]

Why?

Give him a warriors death fighting alongside his beloved.

The Green Prince was not coming out of that place alive, Hornet or no.

[late goblet]

Wait why wouldnt he live anyways?

[floral quiver]

He's very obviously suicidal

[near jasper]

He was not leaving verdania my guy

[floral quiver]

That moment was his last

[near jasper]

The only one thats actually in a place you might pass through is the greymoor one

[late goblet]

But you dont just kill a guy because he's depressed or suicidal though

I understand different universe, different code/rules, but it still leaves a really bad taste in my mouth

[floral quiver]

And that's good! You're not a blooded warrior of Hallownest or Pharloom.

[near jasper]

To our knowledge

[floral quiver]

You have a moral stance where killing is an immoral act

This is good

Hornet doesnt

[foggy fractal]

tell that to Team Cherry, remember nailsmith? when will they learn

[late goblet]

Killing can be moral but only under very specific conditions

But usually it's not

But that's a convo for another day

Anyways

[late goblet]

This is why Im kinda upset because they DID apporach this topic before

You can kill the Nailsmith but you can spare him and just leave

And that's how he meets Sheo

[near jasper]

You can also do that in Silksong

[floral quiver]

And you can do the same to the prince

You only need 3 hearts

[foggy fractal]

sacrifice green prince so khann can aura farm on his chair forever

[late goblet]

God Im horrible with words but it's different and I don't really know how to explain it

[near jasper]

Nailsmith story can progress if you dont kill him

?

[floral quiver]

But you can also give a grieving, suicidal widower an honorable death. One were he sees for the last time his beloved in top form.

[late goblet]

YES I think that's what it is, Nailsmith progresses, Green Prince isn't given that opportunity, you are "soft-locked" to killing him, so to say

[floral quiver]

You can leave him to kill himself

[near jasper]

So wholesome

[late goblet]

Oh wait he does that?

[foggy fractal]

no

[near jasper]

No

[floral quiver]

His story is over at the point you can enter his memories.

He will die

By his own hand alone, or Hornet's alongside his beloved

[late goblet]

No it's not

You can help him remember Verdania but you don't have to go kill him at the end

[foggy fractal]

new dlc hornet becomes a therapist

[floral quiver]

Then he still dies.

By his own hand

[near jasper]

-# Gornet

[late goblet]

I don't think it's good to assume it's a gauarantee that that would happen, but the devs never give us anything else to really work with

[floral quiver]

The man is never leaving his homeland

[late goblet]

I think this is a rare Team Cherry L

[floral quiver]

Other than him literally saying

No more talk, warrior. Permit me this final moment of memorial.

Thats not a man who's coming back

[late goblet]

Yea when you are mourning you absolutely would wanna be alone

[floral quiver]

final moment is important

[near jasper]

Phantom's arena feels a bit like it was repurposed ngl

[late goblet]

Final moment can just mean the last "sendoff" to his lover

[floral quiver]

I mean, if you want to lessen the impact of his story, I guess

Not everyone can be saved

Not all stories have happy endings

The Green Princes doesnt

[late goblet]

Even if we assume that dying by his own hand is his wish and that's what he means though, you (Hornet) said you would leave him be

[foggy fractal]

well Hornet is a lying mf

[floral quiver]

To let him have a final moment to grieve before he dies.

[near jasper]

Do you think the reason Verdania's memory is so complete is because the soul from the second dancer on the cogwork husk contributed to the memory

[floral quiver]

The Green Prince is a tragedy

[floral quiver]

Oh 100%

[late goblet]

Idk man "I will disturb you no longer" usually doesn't entail going into someone's mind and slaying them

[near jasper]

Clover dancers with both dancers in godhome dlc trust

[late goblet]

In part I think so, I say in part because he can't actually seem to recall his lover when we fight him (the second dancer stays a silhouette)

I think it's also Hornet trying to help him remember as a "last gift" before she kills him?

[floral quiver]

Yes. To give him one last memory of his homeland and beloved. Not a shell but in flesh and blood

What kingdom without you?
What life alone?
An end... together...
Each breath shared...
Hearts united...
Hearts entwined...

The Clover Dancer's Needolin dialogue

[near jasper]

Wait you can needolin them?

[floral quiver]

One way or another the Prince was going to die in his beloved's arms

[floral quiver]

Yes

[near jasper]

Huh

I swore needolin didnt work inside memories

[plain ruin]

It does, it just takes longer for dialogue to show

[foggy fractal]

also the bosses just don't get stunned

[plain ruin]

There’s longer breaks between bits of dialogue

[plain ruin]

That too

[near jasper]

Thats not the dialogue for the enemies tho

Thats in anywhere in the memory

[plain ruin]

The dialogue changes from location to location

And there’s a different set for bosses as well

[near jasper]

A

...why make the enemies not react to the needolin if youre meant to find out the Bosses have needolin dialogue

[foggy fractal]

no idea

you could just wait till you stun them

[near jasper]

Team cherry was too lazy to make singing sprites

[foggy fractal]

smh!

[near jasper]

Why does void get agitated when it hears the needolin

[foggy fractal]

because hornet's music sucks

[near jasper]

No I mean the tendrils

On the abyss

[edgy nebula]

senses the silk she's using to play the needolin probably

andy's answer is better though

[near jasper]

The weavenests were actually built with a failsafe to detect any needolin playing if someone with shitty needolining appeared like hornet

[gentle aspen]

void is in the process of consuming the silk that GMS is continually replenishing

the needolin agitates and reveals it

imagine you’re eating spaghetti and some random person starts whistling and the spaghetti starts wriggling

[edgy nebula]

spaghetti controlling whistle

[near jasper]

In the abyss

The tendrils

[edgy nebula]

ive got a question, thk being sealed put hallownest into stasis right? what does that imply?

did it outright stop the infection? if so why did the kingdom still fall

[marble oasis]

Yes, but only for a time, which is why it returned and the kingdom fell

“Stasis” is used to imply that the Radiance’s return was an inevitable fact of nature and so all THK could do was “delay” her rather than “stop” it and let the kingdom continue without her

[edgy nebula]

ic

[foggy fractal]

if only the hollow knight was actually a hollow knight

alas

[marble oasis]

Also why are you asking this in silksong lore

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[whole holly]

Why not?

Clearly lore is interconnected

[gentle aspen]

If the question only relates to HK lore it would be best to move it there

It’s not a hard rule ofc

[whole holly]

Thk not being pure kind of affects events of Silksong, in my opinion

[marble oasis]

It’s never mentioned in the slightest

[near jasper]

Its weird how big the original weaver citadel would be even though they claimed it was barren stone

The only waste management facility is in bilewater and gms is above that so much the map couldnt bother to track the distance like the abyss dive

[edgy nebula]

forgot hk-lore existed

[marble oasis]

real

[whole holly]

I forget it too

[whole holly]

In my opinion Hallownest safe from infection wouldn’t let Hornet be captured, pale king would interfere

[near jasper]

And yk

No deus ex machina for sister of the void

She just dies

[marble oasis]

What does that have to do with the use of “stasis”

[whole holly]

I mean most likely yeah unless other vessel achieves same

[near jasper]

Theres no void heart if thk is pure

[whole holly]

Vessel could achieve void heart if they had objective to

But most of events of Silksong wouldn’t take place if infection was solved, maybe THK visits Pharloom and Focuses GMS as well

Resulting in end

[grave stream]

i know there's gay people and lesbians in hk but are there any in silksong

haven't played in a bit

[near jasper]

Green Prince

[grave stream]

oh yeah

[near jasper]

White lady would have no reason to give her half

[grave stream]

any lesbians?

[marble oasis]

🫵 You, the player

[grave stream]

hey

i am a straight male grub

[near jasper]

Mr mushroom

Trust me

[grave stream]

no

did you just say

MR mushroom is a LESBIAN

[near jasper]

Trobbio

[grave stream]

he's a gay guy i beleive

[foggy stratus]

Traitors Child and Ze'mer.

[grave stream]

i am in sk-lore

i asked about silksong

[foggy stratus]

Shi I dunno, Phantom maybe.

[grave stream]

i don't beleive she has a partner

or wants to

are the two moss mothers in the alta lesbian?

the ones that drop the weavelight

[foggy stratus]

Maybe.

Or perchance the big conch flies.

[grave stream]

oh yeah

they're female?

[foggy stratus]

I dunno.

Hence the perchance.

[grave stream]

by the way this may sound dumb but is the silksong the threefold melody?
or is it a metaphor

[foggy stratus]

Probably a metaphor.

Or the song that kept GMS asleep.

[near jasper]

The silksong is just a cool title related to the themes of the game

[grave stream]

the song lace sings?

but like silkspear or whatever says "our song lasts eternal" implying it's a metaphor

[edgy nebula]

none confirmed

[grave stream]

but the threefold melody is a very important song

using silk

[edgy nebula]

hollow knight silksong is probably a play on many of the main themes of the game

[grave stream]

ok

[edgy nebula]

there's silk of course but song is present in alot of the game and a core part of the citadel

[grave stream]

i think its a metaphor though because they do name drop "the song"

[foggy stratus]

My new head canon is the song that was played to keep GMS asleep was called the Silksong.

[grave stream]

what song was it?

i forgot

[foggy stratus]

I dunno.

We never hear it, I think.

[grave stream]

i would guess her theme or the cradle theme

[foggy stratus]

If I understand properly, the Weavers used it to put GMS asleep then the Cunductors were charged to uphold it.

[grave stream]

it might be the cradle theme, as it is conducted by large instruments, hence the low sound

like a cello but fiction

and personally i don't see the conductor playing a needolin-sized instrument

[near jasper]

The song probably changed with the conductors

Unless they just dissected 3 melodies from it to give the high ranking citadel people

[compact lark]

Can someone summarize the lore? I am really confused

[onyx jolt]

basically this guy dies that guy dies then that guy gets kidnapped and kills those guys to eventually kill that guy to steal that guys power or they can go about being nice and killing other guys to go to the kill death dead dimension to kill more guys to escape the kill juice to get a quest to kill more guys to kill another guy and steal their power (the same guy whos power you steal before) to escape kill land

summary

[onyx jolt]

so conductors melody?

[elfin comet]

i can not, for the lfie of me, decipher this retelling

[onyx jolt]

its basically hornet kills people to kill more people to kill more people to save like 1 person

[edgy nebula]

gms came to pharloom, made weavers to serve her, weavers were tired of serving gms so some ran away, others stayed and created the citadel where they put gms to sleep and started luring in pilgrims to keep gms asleep with song, but then the citadel weavers got tired of working even more to keep gms asleep so they handed their role down to the conductors and mummified themselves to wait for hornet to come and kill gms

however later, with the help of silk experiments in whiteward, gms was able to gain control of bugs and messed everything up, then in her state of being desperate to wake she started kidnapping weavers to bind and regain strength

hornet was one of said weavers

[onyx jolt]

also you can create a trap that sends gms into the void, where after collecting 3 great hearts from fallen rulers you can descend into your memories and see your 3 "moms" to get a flower that repells void to enter the bottom of the abyss and gms helps hornet escape (only cuz she can save gms daughter)

[onyx jolt]

wasnt she bought so gms could bind to her?

because she isnt a true weaver except for weaver queen ending

[grave stream]

she did not make weavers, that was the whole point of the plot, no?

she lied to them that she was their mother, so she could be in power?

did i seriously screw up my perception of the plot

she just elevated them

[gentle aspen]

that is…making the weavers

she just isn’t their mother

[grave stream]

i wouldn't call that making

[gentle aspen]

in the way the weavers thought

[grave stream]

ehh

sure

still they didn't mention that part

[gentle aspen]

from mindless bugs on all fours who can’t use silk to bugs that are transformed into humanoids, given higher thought and the ability to use magic?

Yeah gang

she made them

[grave stream]

i would still consider the motherly lie a major part of the plot

ok i checked

[gentle aspen]

It is

[grave stream]

1 definition of make supports each of our answers

net zero argument

[gentle aspen]

it just is a matter of “oh do you think make means she’s their blood or no”

because she isn’t their blood

she prolly can’t have kids at all

[gentle aspen]

also most likely the reason why weavers apparently have issues with having kids too

they were “made in her image” as it were

[grave stream]

1. cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about. supports my answer, as she did not make them exist

2. form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create. supports your answer as she combined the pharlids with perception of reality and silk manipulatuon

we're technically both right

good job

[frank dove]

Ok guys so is nameless town either

1. Garmond's village (because the buildings are shaped exactly like his head, and the residents fell to the haunting just like Garmond said)
2. Maybe godseeker town like I explained here? #sk-lore message
   They are both pretty big speculation but I feel like they are both too much to be coincidences

[edgy nebula]

neither

it's a very old settlement so garmond wasnt around by then, it was inhabited by pilgrims who were later ruled down to start their pilgrimage by weavers

it's also above the citadel and gms's influence only reaches downwards

[frank dove]

What abt 2nd

[frank dove]

Isn't the issue that they got called down somehow

[late goblet]

What's the purpose of the Exhaust Organ again?

[frank dove]

Ig maybe it was implied it was by weavers and not gms?

[edgy nebula]

it was inhabited by pilgrims, not godseekers

[edgy nebula]

heavily implied to be weavers, it's nearly explicit

"The weaving ones beckon..."

[frank dove]

Ah yeah so I mixed those up

[frank dove]

What's saying godseekers weren't from above pharloom

Why are they in the same spot

[edgy nebula]

theyre from the land of storms, the land of storms is very visually distinct from pharloom's surface

it's thundering, the bg is littered with corpses of huge bugs, and iirc there are tall pillars too

[frank dove]

Godtuner's workshop has none of those lol

[covert night]

there is no evidence that it's the same area

[frank dove]

Ik it's not land of storms

[frank dove]

Ok let me compare ss rq

[edgy nebula]

im not arguing against the cave being a spot where the godseeker stopped with their tuner, but nameless town certainly wasnt a seeker town

[covert night]

the areas being similar doesn't confirm it sadly

we need solid proof

like a dialogue or something

[sinful nimbus]

Reused asset

[frank dove]

They look exactly the same (sry abt red bar I just took from yt)

[sinful nimbus]

Its visually distinct it just reuses an asset

[frank dove]

Why would they do that

[marble oasis]

lazy devs man

[frank dove]

Good point that makes sense ig

[sinful nimbus]

Sequels reusing assets is common

This asset gets the job done cuz it gets you to look at whats in the center of the circle

[covert night]

exactly

[near jasper]

Get rid of waste

[marble oasis]

The shape is the same but the rocks are very very slightly differently arranged

[near jasper]

Also nameless town cant be garmonds Village because he says his village was lost to the haunting

[late goblet]

That's what polluted Bilewater and the Ducts? Or just the Citadel in general

[frank dove]

Yes I was just corrected on that, my mistake

[near jasper]

Both

[frank dove]

I feel like differences like that would be more evidence pointing away from reused asset but idk

[near jasper]

Exhaust organ is just a part of the sewer/underwork system

[late goblet]

Ah

[sinful nimbus]

iirc the asset of the actual cave's shape is reused but the surrounding fossils/rocks are not

[near jasper]

Its probably a pretty important of it though

[sinful nimbus]

but notably the godtuner and the godseeker crevice are missing

[near jasper]

Considering they did fully enslave a person withiut even hiding it to keep it going

[covert night]

it's just rocks

rocks are quite similar

yknow

[frank dove]

I mean I guess

I feel like it seems a little too coincidental that they reused an asset like that

They already make a point of godtuners worshop not being in land of storms

[near jasper]

I think the godseekers would be able to find a 50 foot tall pale being directly below them

One that was likely in desperate need of worshippers by the time they got there

[frank dove]

Ye gms was not always there though

But they would have maybe sensed khann karmleita etc

[near jasper]

Frankly I dont think the godseeker is older than most of pharloom itself

[frank dove]

Yeah yeah all good points

Who knows :/

Maybe we'll have something show up in dlc

Maybe literally nothing happens

[near jasper]

Like the only thing we really know survived was the old hearts and widow who is ascended by a god into a weaver so I doesnt really count

How do weavers survive so long but have only a single one left in hallownest

[frank dove]

I feel like I saw somewhere they went back for some reason?

Idk I didn't see any evidence for that in game

And don't understand it myself at all

[near jasper]

I mean the bodies in weavers den

[near jasper]

Weaversong charm iirc

"[...]Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.'

[frank dove]

Oh yeah I kind of assumed it was in silksong

Been a few years since I played hk lol

[near jasper]

Same

Did you see they changed the cover art for the game?

Hk i mean

[frank dove]

Which

[frank dove]

No wdym

[near jasper]

Picture from my old xbox one

Its a new lifeblood cover art

[frank dove]

Oh well I saw that on all the art of the new update

On switch 2 or something

Whatever the new patch was

Who knows about any of this though, a lot of hk lore didn't make sense until it was explained in dlc

Likely to be the same with silksong

[near jasper]

What do you think is written on Phantom's organ?

[frank dove]

Sheet music ._.

[near jasper]

Idk

Its written the same as text in the citadel/pilgrim language

[frank dove]

Yes I saw this earlier td

[near jasper]

Wait

Is phantoms bench slightly off center

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1212116783033491587/1397695932706979970/end_screen_1.gif

[frank dove]

💀

[near jasper]

We should cancel sea of sorrow so they can work on that

Actually we should cancel all upcoming Silksong context for a styx game

[grave stream]

i have so many ideas for sea of sorrow

they could turn it into a whole ahh game but then they should pick a new character or restart and go in a different direction with Hornet

i present:
Hollow knight: ZoteBoat

[near jasper]

The next game mode needs a cooler ui

[grave stream]

imo the next game should be a prequel to hollow knight; hollow knight: wanderer (Quirrel)

game ends on the end of quirrel comoc

comic*

[frank dove]

I didn't think there was that much space between

He goes down and you see him in black egg temple

[grave stream]

Quirrel canonoically had a voyage before the Call.

i think

he was journeying in a different kingdom, but got a call from monomon (spiritually) to return to Hallownest.

That's also how we know about the wastelands

[near jasper]

How large is bell eater to be able to pull everything he does in the fight without pulling a sweat And never letting bell beast in until they were meant to start phase 3

[foggy fractal]

pretty large

[grave stream]

i would guess they are a millipede, so however long ~200 legs is

i could do the math

[near jasper]

Like a cogwork core long

[grave stream]

like 30-400 hornets

[near jasper]

Also implied that multiple of these are in the bellways from "we" in the needolin dialogue

[grave stream]

if hornet is about 6 in long then 15-200 feet

6in long due to measurement of grub (me) of 4in, and the stereotypical sissor

scissor

scisscor

however u spell it

[edgy nebula]

bell eater is stated to be a centipede

[grave stream]

oh

[near jasper]

And that there is still enough space for all of bellhart, every bellway and the building a full bellshrime we see that its never disturbed until the tens of kingdom sized earthquakes every time gms screams in the abyss

[grave stream]

then about 50 feet

long guy

[near jasper]

Bell eater is a skinny wyrm

Trust

[grave stream]

50 feet long by 1 foot wide is not skinny

bigback worm

wyrm

[edgy nebula]

with how hornet says bell eater is similar to folktales from her childhood it makes me wonder if centipedes and wyrms are genuine stand-ins for dragons in the hk universe

maybe thats why wyrms are called that

[grave stream]

a wyrm is a type of dragon i think

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[grave stream]

terraria taught me that

yeah

serpentine dragon

[marble oasis]

Garpedes:

[edgy nebula]

those are garpedes not centipedes

[marble oasis]

I’m going to touch you

[grave stream]

ok seriously though i would estimate that bell eater is somewhere around 50 feet by 1 foot

using hornet as a ruler

[edgy nebula]

now calculate how long the pontiff is

[foggy fractal]

2

[grave stream]

what's tjat

[edgy nebula]

the dead vaultkeeper you get the vaultkeeper's melody from

[grave stream]

i dont feel like it

it would be hard to get an estimate

he's in the walls

[near jasper]

I think bell eater is the hk stand in for the deep sea leviathans

[edgy nebula]

i mean

[grave stream]

i forgot he dies

[edgy nebula]

tc devs are so lazy

[foggy fractal]

true

[marble oasis]

different guy

[grave stream]

yeah

[edgy nebula]

those scroll assets are clearly the same

[near jasper]

Oh yeah Thats at least a cardinius sized

[foggy fractal]

true

[grave stream]

lemme get to work

[near jasper]

Yk

[grave stream]

can i have an image of hornet next to him

[near jasper]

If the weavers didnt want people to know they were trappinh gms

[grave stream]

for scale

[late goblet]

Idk why I just realized this only now, but Relic Keeper Scrouge is the same type of bug as the vaultkeepers

[sinful nimbus]

Vaultkeepers are so tuff

[marble oasis]

You’re going to eat your words once SoS comes out and we see a real abyssopelagic terror

[marble oasis]

More like she’s the same as the Threadrakers

[near jasper]

How did the vaultkeepers find something saying that in their library

[marble oasis]

The Vaultkeepers are probably a subset population of that same species though

[grave stream]

i beleive SoS's last boss will be the lifeblood being, and we will extract/kill them and use their lifeblood to cure pharloom a little bitr

or for good in general

[near jasper]

Sea of sorrow will make a permanent needle phial tool

[foggy fractal]

I enjoy their designs a lot same with conductors and architects
y'know I thought they were gonna be bosses when I saw those statues at first

[sinful nimbus]

Identified a spell in the melody probably

[grave stream]

also yes lifeblood is a giga drug but giga drugs can counteract giga drugs and it's happened in smaller extents

[marble oasis]

They didn’t give a shit anymore after they left

[sinful nimbus]

To some extent Silk was known about as the "divine heart" of the Citadel but what exactly she was probably wasn't known

[marble oasis]

They told the Conductors about it

[grave stream]

that was gms, no?

she is divine

[sinful nimbus]

That's who Silk is

[grave stream]

oh lol

im dumb

[marble oasis]

It annoys me that you have to say GMS every time to avoid confusing her with the substance

[grave stream]

just say silk mommy

[late goblet]

I like to call her Grandma/Granny

[marble oasis]

Her name is Silk same as her name is Radiance

[near jasper]

Gilf

[grave stream]

silf

silk*

[near jasper]

Silfsong

[foggy fractal]

Grand Mother Silk
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - GMS
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN 🗣️ 🎺 🎵

[near jasper]

We should Just call gms "fat silk" 👍

[edgy nebula]

call gms Big S

[grave stream]

silk mommy

[late goblet]

I guess cause all silk came/originated from her in some way or another?

[sinful nimbus]

Best theme in the game... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK1X_9EOmhQ&t=188s

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

khann's is better, nuff said

[grave stream]

radiance is a silkmoth, silk is a part of string which is in the needolin, not all silk is silk mommy's

[marble oasis]

And other chuckle-filled giggles you can tell at parties

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance doesn't make silk

[near jasper]

How does styx not get haunted actively feeding silk to silkeaters and living in a nest of it

[sinful nimbus]

She's just inspired by irl silk moths

[near jasper]

Have we checked

[grave stream]

string is silk though

so there is non silk mommy silk

[foggy fractal]

yeah and as far as we know no

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah from other spiders

[marble oasis]

Radiance is neither silk nor a moth lmao

She just looks a bit like an irl silk moth

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of the Citadel though she is where the Conductors were sourcing silk for like Whiteward n such

[grave stream]

-# inspiration

[near jasper]

And maybe styx

[marble oasis]

Partially

They were recycling as much as possible

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that too

[marble oasis]

Why would that affect anything

[near jasper]

Gms can sense her silk, no?

[grave stream]

yes

[marble oasis]

It’s not like he’s eating it

[grave stream]

like a puppeteer

i think

metaphorically*

not literally a puppeteer

[near jasper]

Why are the silk cocoons in act 3 not fully being consumed by the void threads directly holding them

[grave stream]

Question: why is the silksong everbloom not nearly as fragile as Ze'mer's?

and why is there only 1 in sk

[marble oasis]

Why only 1 - because we plucked it out of our memory which is a 1 time event
Why not fragile - gameplay first and foremost but it can be explained away by it being “fresher”, or having special properties due to being plucked from the memory, i.e. little Hornet remembered it as being more durable than it is in reality

[grave stream]

why didn't hornet just remember the world being perfect then

why didn't hornet just remember her needle damage was 99999?

if they can make a spell that puts one in their own memories then they can brainwash someone

genuine skill issue

[marble oasis]

not how memory works lol

[grave stream]

if she didn't remember something correctly then what she thinks is right, then why don't they brainwash her before the dive?

infinite power glitch

[near jasper]

I think most Plants in the possesion of a glowing root god will be naturally strong

[grave stream]

well you took it out of her possesion

but that does make sens

e

[marble oasis]

1. they can’t do that
2. that wouldn’t actually overwrite her memory

[grave stream]

magic

[dire lynx]

the fact they dont include her scream in this one like they did for sealed vessel is criminal

[finite wind]

The fact that the coral gauntlet theme is not part of the ost is criminal

[iron spindle]

I just witnessed the true ending

Pure perfection

That surprise in the end was INSANE 🔥

||maybe he could come back in their 3rd game or something||

I noticed something tho, ||did grand mother help Hornet in her last super jump to save lace ? Cause I’m not sure if that’s hornet trying to force silk out of her she just looks at her ||

[plain ruin]

Yes

Hornet requested her aid, and she obliged

[hollow minnow]

how does the sk lore work

wait nvm

[gaunt berry]

Its so much better than Lost Lace that its not even funny.

I don't think any theme pisses me off more than Lost Lace's. Actual dud compared to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER TRACK. its so confusing, considering that this is the same game with my favourite area theme in all of video games...and is somehow the same game that has this actual peakinema

Lost Lace is a great fight with an ass boss theme

[gaunt berry]

It feels like it communicates the least of every boss theme. Its shockingly generic and its a travesty, especially when compared to the previous game (Sealed Vessel is still a masterclass in boss themes and remains my all-time favourite boss theme for the sheer implications alone utilized through leitmotif alone). It communicates very little about Lace OR GMS, and just…adds so little to the atmosphere. The visuals do more to communicate the narrative than the song to the point that the song feels pointless. And no videogame song should feel pointless

[candid linden]

why dont bugs have guns

[craggy smelt]

they do
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Silkshot
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Rosary_Cannon

[candid linden]

oh yeah

[whole holly]

I hope we get boss like NKG, second most powerful boss after gms kind of

[craggy smelt]

I appreciated Radiance getting her Absolute treatment, getting an upgrade that put her back on top along with the hardest bosses

and having it worked into the narrative was even better

though I'm not saying I'd want a final DLC to give us yet another Lace fight

but it would be neat to see a more powerful incarnation of GMS, maybe in the Godhome equivalent, along with new bosses

[whole holly]

I don’t think Sea of Sorrows will do that, we won’t see another Lace form. we will be refighting lace, but Lifeblood Creature should get Nightmare Heart treatment and GMS should get Absolute Radiance treatment in eventual boss rush DLC

[craggy smelt]

if the narrative continues, I could tolerate Lace being a combat ally against something, but I'd rather not fight her a fourth time

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows should be sneak peak of Lifeblood Creature

[whole holly]

Same way hornet is after fighting hornet sentinel? That would require post- act 3 content no?

I think both Sea of Sorrows and Godhome will be act neutral

[craggy smelt]

yeah, though I agree that I don't think SoS will be that

[whole holly]

Story might eventually build towards if down the line if I am being honest

[craggy smelt]

maybe we'll get some tantalizing hints

[whole holly]

Yeah

I am excited for Lifeblood Creature finally being something of substance

[craggy smelt]

about 9 months left to wait at most

[whole holly]

Do you think that Sea of Sorrows will introduce central figure? It doesn’t have to be a higher being or old heart even

Just central figure to lore

[craggy smelt]

I would have thought it would be Zylotol's master, but I think there's a case for her being the corpse that will yield our new crest

perhaps she'll be important anyway... maybe lingering in Hornet's perceptions as she explores the new area?

[whole holly]

Joni’s repose parallels are there too

[whole holly]

Like Dreamers do? Project?

[craggy smelt]

something like that

I'm almost imagining Hornet getting the new crest right away, and then the Master keeps popping up in Hornet's mind

like her personality hasn't been completely subsumed yet, unlike Eva

Hornet finds some important bit of the Master's work, and the Master's ghost pops up to comment on it

eventually fading away once the storyline is resolved

[whole holly]

Interesting, kind of like cursed crest but less of curse and more of guidance

[craggy smelt]

yeah, just a passenger hanging on, not necessarily anything sinister

unless maybe they're a bit too fond of Lifeblood and we come into conflict with it...

[whole holly]

That is likely, but I want more sea-based storyline too

Unique

Maybe we will get Mariner’s Journal book too eventually

[craggy smelt]

yeah, the small maps previews of all those strange, deep areas is the most enticing

I hope they're not just cinematic pieces, but we can actually explore them

TC said they wanted to be ambitious with the DLC, so this first one will be a good measure of that
how much crazier could things get, if future DLC adds even more

[whole holly]

Absolutely

But I want vagueness that Hollow Knight had and powerful central figure that actually uses song

Song does fit in Sea of Sorrows, it just does

I was expecting DLC to revolve around memories and be equivalent of hidden dreams dlc

[craggy smelt]

I can see a DLC like that being the 'Godhome' equivalent - the most obvious being a return to something like Red Memory
it's a bit late in the game, but frankly there wasn't really much point to going to Godhome until the endgame anyway

go back, fight all your memories of various bosses, maybe resolve some stuff

Vespa boss fight (maybe Herrah and White Lady if we're lucky too)