sk-lore

[raven tinsel]

@vivid kernel

[twin dragon]

Mind you their society is organized with castes

the soldiers could've been born into their role

and they most likely are because yk, they all look similar

But that might be js a design choice not something to be used as actual evidence

[chrome geode]

who do you guys think punished widow

[twin dragon]

the weavers obv

[chrome geode]

should i put that in discussion or this

[chrome geode]

that's what i think

some people think it was gms

bcs first sinner was punished in a different way

[twin dragon]

Theres even cut flashbacks of widow getting her mask split open

[chrome geode]

but they commited different crimes so

[twin dragon]

i mean it's not canon but it was obv implied

[chrome geode]

brutal

[twin dragon]

Widow likely was pre rebellion

and fs post

[floral quiver]

Why did this catch on? That First Sinner being a post rebellion thing i mean.

She spends her fight talking about how the pure hate of the Lie and the rage of her people sustained her even as she was crushed to death.

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel is post rebellion and she's in a Citadel prison

[floral quiver]

How she would wait and hate and then wait and die.

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel also perpetuated the lie which you can see in Weaver Effigies where the weavers claim to be divine themselves

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[floral quiver]

Her Needolin dialogue

Faded...
...Forgotten...
...First...
...Our Silk... Our rage...
...Wait, and hate...
...Wait, and die...

I did not wane!
I did not forget!
Sustained by fury!
Cursed by Silk!
Cursed with Silk!
Cursed to know...
The sin... the truth...

She called us daughters... Called us divine... She lied...

That's a lot of life/spirit sustaining fury and rage at her Mother's Lie

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

She's the one who stated the lie

I'm not saying GMS wouldn't have a motive to imprison her it just doesn't chronologically line up that she did it over the weavers (who would also have a motive to imprison her)

[floral quiver]

She couldnt be screaming more "captured by Silk in the rebellion, locked away to die, sustained untill she dropped by pure hate and fury" if she just came out and directly told the audience

[sinful nimbus]

The cell has the iconography of the sleeping GMS and everything she was already asleep by the time of FS's imprisonment

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[floral quiver]

She was imprisoned, constricted for apostasy. While so, hate and fury sustained her, kept her body alive until it physically couldn't anymore, and then she waited some more held in her prison by anger and rage and the idea that someone would come to finish what she and her sisters started.

[near jasper]

weavers not being divine isnt that well kept a secret outside pharloom

"Their sealed mother, but the common beast."

[sinful nimbus]

Apostasy against the Citadel specifically

She's in the section of the slab dedicated to imprisoning people who commited apostasy against the Citadel

And if the Citadel locked her up (look at her cell) then GMS had to be asleep by the time, so its chronologically post rebellion

[near jasper]

I dont think she would be the only one imprisoned if gms found out what She was doing considering tge burial spire plan was already in motion

Also couldnt the weavers just free her after putting gms to sleep

[floral quiver]

You cant free a corpse

[near jasper]

You can

Weavers had burial spires she should get one for telling them the truth

[floral quiver]

She found out she was subversive, and punished her. The others feigned loyalty, and continued on with the hidden rebellion, now with a martyr.

This is classic "hidden rebellion" storytelling and I'm confounded that it's not the first thing people are coming too.

[plain ruin]

Weaver lore has changed a lot since HK, this isn't that reliable

Though the bugs of Deepnest could have also understood Weavers differently

Since they're not from Deepnest

[plain ruin]

iirc it was the first thing most people assumed, the theory that FS was imprisoned by other Weavers popped up later

As people's understanding of the lore developed

[near jasper]

who would have made the runes locking her cell

Thats weaver technology

We dont see it passed down to anyone

And gms never uses it

[plain ruin]

The rune cages used by the Wardenflies and the Envoys sent to Hallownest use runes

[near jasper]

I forgor

[plain ruin]

So the runes alone aren't the best evidence

[near jasper]

Why keep her locked up after the rebellion though

[plain ruin]

It's the other details (Citadel symbol, lore tablet wording, timeline building) that point to it being the Weavers

[floral quiver]

Where does it come from though? Like, thats a big leap based around a relatively limited spread of visual motifs.

[plain ruin]

It comes from all of the points that we and others have brought up

[floral quiver]

I've read all the lore tablets and I still dont get it. None of them would lead me to assume that the First Sinner was some post-Rebellion thing.

[near jasper]

I dont see why weavers would leave the body of their martyr rotting for eternity and pass down the instructions to keep her locked to the citadel

[floral quiver]

Like, I'm trying to get it

[finite wind]

why does the first sinner cage and prision have the mordern citadel decorations? if the weavers imprisioned her, she should be in a stone like prision

[near jasper]

You gave karn a burial spire and all She did was like worms first sinner can get one if shes your martyr

[floral quiver]

Because the Citadel gilded everything after the Weavers left.

[finite wind]

that explaination doesn't sit up well with me at all

[twin dragon]

does it?

[floral quiver]

And she is! The Slab is solid stone.

[finite wind]

why would they mess with some old prision

[twin dragon]

the citadel wasn't really purely made out of stone, pious isamor is of corroded gilded ish color

it was likely devoid of luxury not metal

[near jasper]

Why did the weavers keep her locked up after the rebellion

[floral quiver]

Because its where the Citadel started putting its penitents

[twin dragon]

because she got imprisoned after the rebellion

[near jasper]

Weavers live a long time the hallownest ones survived till the dreamer plan

Silk has healing abilities

She could maybe survive

[twin dragon]

Yeah but she hurt the citadel agenda

[finite wind]

that's what the mask maker says though

[finite wind]

it is, i was trying to find an image

[twin dragon]

which dialogue

[near jasper]

Its kinda funny the weavers never got past living in barren stone since their pharlid days

[floral quiver]

The mask maker isn't objective nore are they a living source who was there. The age of the rebellion and early Citadel is barely barely touched. Much less than the age of the Choir.

[plain ruin]

Well, why would GMS seal her away like this in the first place? Couldn't she have just bound her power, allowing her to both silence FS while also reabsoring the power/strength she bestowed upon FS?

[floral quiver]

Because she was her daughter and was being punished. You cant be punished if you stop existing and are remade.

[near jasper]

I think killing people is a punishment actually

[twin dragon]

uhh yeah

[plain ruin]

Binding FS wouldn't have just stopped her from existing completely

[twin dragon]

most popular one... by a long shot... actually

[plain ruin]

Eva explains that binding someone involves binding their soul and memories within one's shell. Their minds cease to be, in an independent sense

[floral quiver]

She would be subsumed by the whole that is Silk.

Ego death.

Plus being subsumed wouldn't leave a visible consequence for disobedience. Like a body in a cell.

[plain ruin]

They're still in their, but they're a part of another whole instead of a whole individual

[low oracle]

Here is my understanding of the lore:

First Sinner was imprisoned during the change of rule, where Conductors already ruled but some Weavers were still around.
FS's cage is gilded, bearing the citadel's sigil. This is the most clear sign of the Conductors being part of her imprisonment. However that isn't all. I believe that the Weavers played part in it too. We know how incredibly powerfull a full-fletched Weaver is. Their descendants already require many troops to capture, even over several generations. Hence it isn't hard to conclude that Weaver's are far too powerfull for the normal bug. Additionally, her cage is also chained with silken runes. While runes are also seen elsewhere, these are unique. They are most similar to the chains of THK. The same chains that Weavers assisted the Pale King with.
The conclusion is that First Sinner was imprisoned by both the Weavers and Conductors, during the age where the Weaver fled and left the Conductors in power. While their reasoning might have differed, one explanation was FS opposing the image of the deities that Weavers portrayed themselves as. Putting risk to the entire religion keeping the cycle going, FS had to be imprisoned.

Widow was also punished by the Weavers, this time around by the removal of her mask. We have cut content to straightly confirm this, and even if it is cut, everything else hints to it too (parts of my reasoning with FS for example). There is no clear reason as to why Widow wasn't imprisoned too, but she was definitely punished for being in support of GMS.

In the images below we can see Widow being unmasked through the use of the syphon, the instrument also used to create silkflies from pilgrims souls (located in the Whiteward).

Another detail I want to mention is the syphon, the platforms in the cradle and the spikes in the HK Weavenest all having similar if not the same spikes.

(Spikes are not visible in the images)

[finite wind]

nvm, it was pious isamor

[near jasper]

I dont think gms really cared about leaving physical evidence she killed one of her children

[finite wind]

still, he calls it a citadel of stone and first sinner's cage is not made out of stone

[floral quiver]

... what?

Narratively the point of Widow is to show the consequences of being captured by GMS. You are strung to serve, your mind ripped away and forced to venerate her as you should have done, you disobedient child!

[near jasper]

Removing someone from existence is a pretty visible consequence for betraying gms ngl

[finite wind]

nvm this guy explained it all

[near jasper]

Widow was not punished by gms

[low oracle]

Widow is literally seen supporting GMS in a memory in the cradle.

[near jasper]

A cut ending visibly shows that if gms overpowers a weaver brought to her they are bound

[finite wind]

not even that, she's literally holding her strings in bellheart

[plain ruin]

Widow was definitely punished by the other Weavers, I've laid out my own theory on that without cut content but it completely agrees with yours that is informed by cut content.

For FS, I suppose it is possible, since the exact timeline of the Slab's creation isn't certain. We just know that FS was the first penitent/occupant of the Slab. I personally think this occurred while the Weavers were still enjoying their false rule and before they planned to flee. Now that I think about it, maybe the whole episode with FS and her imprisonment contributed to their departure.

[finite wind]

also, i didn't know about this cut content, really cool

[plain ruin]

GMS could've had the other Weavers witness the binding to serve as a warning about the price of disobedience

[floral quiver]

When she's already strung to serve with Silk in her body and her mask removed.

You act like thats not potentially a relatively recent event brought about by her being forcibly made to use Silks silk.

[finite wind]

you would still have to explain the design of FS's cage

[near jasper]

The masks for weavers was made by gms already why would that need to be changed for them to worship gms

[finite wind]

I don't understand your point

[plain ruin]

Strong cage requires a strong composition

[high bronze]

Wait is first sinners mask crack because she was the first weaver right?

[finite wind]

I didn't mean that

[near jasper]

Prob

[low oracle]

It's also just logic really. We see how binding works and that it is a skill of GMS/ Weavers. In Weaver Queen Hornet binds GMS, absorbing her power instead of destroying it, which would mean killing GMS.

While I don't know direct evidence for this, it would establish the reasoning as to why Hornet couldn't save the kingdom without the void. This also ties back to the Radiance, where the Knight can only properly defeat her when using it.

[floral quiver]

Because most Weaver'a identities involved being rebellious.

It's a standard brainwashing plot. Take a rebel, break their will, force them to service and love.

[finite wind]

I meant that the design comes from the conductors' reign over pharloom

[low oracle]

It isn't specified, it is most likely just cause aesthetics.

[finite wind]

yeah I don't think there's literally any hint of that happening

[twin dragon]

Neither is isamor..

[near jasper]

Why would gms brainwash widow and not just kill her for punishment

[finite wind]

GMS can't make a bug nor even a weaver to want to worship her

[plain ruin]

I think so, FS could've been somewhat of a prototype from GMS. After elevating her, she refined the process and elevated the rest of the Weavers, this time ensuring they all had identical masks and identical knowledge (or lack thereof) of their origins.

[finite wind]

she couldn't even do it to her children, the weavers, lace or phantom

[high bronze]

We see the pharlid turning into first sinner, so my guess she pierced the shell of the pharlid and it grew like that with the crack like in the cutscene

[lone folio]

We do get hints that she was the first weaver, hornet asks if she was the first to weave the runes, she is called "first of the first" on the cage, and she is the one with the cutscene of getting ascended.

[floral quiver]

Other than her gibbering insane veneration of Silk. What She wanted, Her daughters to love and worship her forever?

[low oracle]

Pius Isamor is visibly not of modern Architect construction, and definitely older than even the ones leading to the cradle.
As I said, early reign of the Conductors, where the Weavers were still present.

[twin dragon]

Ehhh, we see that weavers have inconsistent body parts

[high bronze]

I like the Idea of first sinners being a prototype, since the same thing kinda happened with the wraiths and phantom

[finite wind]

yes, but if she could force them to do that, he would have done it lol

[near jasper]

Why would gms not just kill widow instead of doing a whole brainwashing plot

[finite wind]

cause you can't create a machine like him ouf ot stone duh, but he's clearly from a different time

[twin dragon]

I think the conductors started to renovate the citadel after the weavers stepped down

[low oracle]

Because this is bs and I explained why.

[near jasper]

Theres people in pharloom who worship weavers brainwash them

[finite wind]

why wouldn't she do it with
the other weavers
lace
phantom
hornet
etc

[plain ruin]

Yes, but the masks are all the same. The different "limbs" could have been caused by small individual details of the Pharlid itself

[twin dragon]

Yeah, hes still bronze ish

Rusty though

[low oracle]

Why would they do that? Why wait? The Weavers don't care about that, it even helps them.

[lone folio]

To be fair those differences are restricted to the spike locations and the amount of spikes

[near jasper]

Because she just eats the other weavers

[low oracle]

*binds

[near jasper]

And the citadel needed a slave for phantom

[twin dragon]

Such wide variety of limbs would be weird for a naturally ocurring species

[near jasper]

Same thing

[twin dragon]

Limbs

[lone folio]

They have different limbs?

[low oracle]

No??? Are you saying Hornet ate:

[twin dragon]

Ye

[near jasper]

The mummies do

[twin dragon]

Check weavenest flashbacks

[finite wind]

wouldn't it have been easier to do that from the begining? what about the other characters I mentioned?

[twin dragon]

Ans thats why widow has arms and fs doesnt

[plain ruin]

I'm not sure if they're necessarilly limbs, I just said "limbs" because I don't know how else to describe them. They're features more than limbs tbh

[near jasper]

Lace gms likes

[low oracle]

FIRST SINNER LITERALLY HAS ARMS

[twin dragon]

Theyre also limbs

[floral quiver]

Because she wants her daughter's unconditional love and for them to follow their roles. Note her daughters. All those part weavers she sucked aren't her daughters and can be used for power. Her daughters are special because they're Hers and should be doing their role of veneration and love.

[plain ruin]

Every Weaver has arms

[finite wind]

lace literally tried to kill her

[twin dragon]

Not in the socket where widow has them

Fs has 4 legs

[plain ruin]

How else would they play their song for GMS

[near jasper]

In act 3

[twin dragon]

With wtv legs they had

[low oracle]

Just say that you don't know the individual sprites all too well.

[finite wind]

that's my point, if she could have brainwashed anyone, she would have done it to lace, but she clearly didn´t

[twin dragon]

Theres like one sprite with 8 limbs of fs

And thats an inconsistency

[low oracle]

This is essentially how the arms of Weavers work. From what we can see.

[plain ruin]

That indicates that they aren't limbs, they're some other feature

[low oracle]

There is literally an attack where she strikes with her arms and runs with her legs.

[floral quiver]

She eats weavers in part. Half and quarter and eighth things. Pathetic remnants of her once perfect children

[twin dragon]

Thats just a design inconsistency, nothing else

[near jasper]

She does not consider weavers perfect

[low oracle]

The inconsistency is in your understanding of what you are seeing.

[near jasper]

She says that in laces silk heart memory

[twin dragon]

Theyre useless for her to use

[low oracle]

She literally uses them

[plain ruin]

You were referring to the middle Weaver in that reply about 8 limbs, yeah?

[twin dragon]

She literally has them glued fym

[floral quiver]

She did. Then they betrayed her. But they're still worth more than their spawn she consumes.

[twin dragon]

She can slash with two arms or one and walk with the rest

[near jasper]

How are they worth more

[plain ruin]

They're too small to be limbs, and too weirdly shaped/located. They're parts of the Weaver's body, I don't know their exact purpose but they're not limbs

[twin dragon]

Theres zero reason why she would have them pressed unlike widow

If she could move them

[finite wind]

what

[plain ruin]

Maybe a remnant from their Pharlid forms, maybe an indication that they were elevated from different bugs/Pharlid variants

[twin dragon]

Like we see widow n theres a needolin memory weaver that hangs with 4 legs

[twin dragon]

Yeah gms aint too great at this

[floral quiver]

Because they were Her daughters. Made by her own hand. Not dregs of a once vaunted line hidden away in the backwaters of the world

[plain ruin]

Maybe some bodily modification or innate visual identifier

[plain ruin]

Or not innate, but purposely created

[near jasper]

She doesnt like her daughters anymore

By your interpretation she left first sinner to starve to death alone in a hidden hole in a cave

[low oracle]

It's big brain time, figure out what any of this might mean.

[floral quiver]

Yes and she broke the will of another, taking her silk away, making her reliant on Her silk to do her craft untill she was a gibbering madwoman who can barely string sentences together.

[near jasper]

Why not just her kill too

[low oracle]

GMS definitely didn't use stakes, instead of just binding her. Did you even read my entire argument?

[floral quiver]

Because thats not the punishment she wanted to give?

[near jasper]

Why

Why waste your time on that

[floral quiver]

Because she's an arrogant, capricious god who narcissistically believes that her daughters should love her always and forever and follow their roles.

[low oracle]

@floral quiver Can you please give me a response on this?

[twin dragon]

Mind you the conductors probably didnt make the citadel luxurious until the weavers stepped down

It couldve had metal before, as seen with isamor

You aint making a cage out of fucking stone

[low oracle]

SAYS WHO??? And a change in power literally means they stepped down.
Dude, what?

[twin dragon]

Yeah

They had no agency

If they stepped down

[floral quiver]

I think you're wrong. Overthinking some things, underthinking others and not considering what makes a good narrative.

[twin dragon]

The whole point of the citadel pre conductors is that it was purely practical

Aside from the weaver superiority complex but seeing how pharlids loved caves

[floral quiver]

The Citadel going from a simple stone temple fortress to an ostentatious golden monstrosity is important for the Citadel's narrative arc

[twin dragon]

Dont think they needed much glittee

[floral quiver]

The gold and machines are a sign of moral and personal rot

[near jasper]

What porpuse did widow have in the rebellion that would cause gms to punish her so horribly

[floral quiver]

They stopped being about song and became about gold and wealth and leasure

[twin dragon]

The bronze/gold was present before i think

[floral quiver]

She rebelled at all.

That's why

[near jasper]

So did other weavers

[low oracle]

The entire point was that it was the Weavers and Conductors. And Weavers were still supposed gods so they absolutely had agency. FS risked this image of them being gods. Which would ruin the cycle of pilgrims coming to the citadel following these gods.

[twin dragon]

For the metallic constructs such as isamor and fs cage

[twin dragon]

??

[floral quiver]

And they werent caught.

[low oracle]

The golden stuff is practical, there's a reason why the Citadel has to be grand and impressive.

[near jasper]

If she knows a rebellion is planned she should assume that there are at least 3 people rebelling

[twin dragon]

They went to bury themselves after sliding the ownership

[near jasper]

Where is that shown

[low oracle]

How about you quit your judgement and give me arguments I can work with?

[twin dragon]

Isamor describes it as barebones and undecorated

[floral quiver]

The gilded stuff is a sign of avarice and want. A failing of the Conductors and the Choir

[floral quiver]

By her actions and her relationship with Lace?

[twin dragon]

Yes, i agree with the fs hurting the citadels identity, but i dont think there was a thing such as a mutual rule between weavers and conductors

[near jasper]

If we are meant to believe widow rebelled against gms i want to see proof she rebelled

[lone folio]

I really doubt that the golden decorations lining every wall and surface in the citadel serves any major purpose other then too look nice

[plain ruin]

Making the Citadel look otherworldly makes it more alluring to common bugs

[twin dragon]

She stayed on her side during the weaver rebellion

[plain ruin]

Chapel Maid: ...It's that Citadel above, you see. Even now, in Pharloom's long decline, the simple bugs, they're witless before it. Too grand. Too majestic. Too powerful.

[low oracle]

Pius Isamor (as stated by me earlier) is far older than modern Architect technology. Even older than the three faction automatons. Hence it falls in the time where (surprise) the Citadel was still in the making of its appearance the Conductors chose for it.

[near jasper]

What relation with lace?

[low oracle]

Looking nice is the purpose. Do you go to a dirt hut and think "a this seems godly, I should worship these beautiful divine beings"? I reckon not.

[twin dragon]

Yes. I would place it into the weaver rule, isamor doesnt mention any caste at all

[twin dragon]

It couldve had this touch, just not the fucking high halls levels of bs

[low oracle]

When the Conductors overtook the citadel it didn't happen in one day. That isn't how leaders change. Neither did the factions exist back then. Conductors is just the name we give them, though they filled the roles of all factions too (Pius Isamor is a good example). Neither did they gild the Citadel in one day.

Now I have a question for you. Why was Pius Isamor put away?

[floral quiver]

Lace hates her for a very good reason. She is controlling and exacting without a shred of expressed love toward her daughter. She commands and Lace obeys and thats as far as their relationship goes despite Silk wanting love and veneration and obedience. Then she throws Lace away for Hornet, like she might as well not be her daughter.

[twin dragon]

The citadel itself is massive yes, it doesnt need to allude to the fact it was gilded

[candid linden]

what does gms want from hornet?

[floral quiver]

This can be assumed to be a pattern.

[low oracle]

Sorry, you can only see her worshipping GMS. Not that this person understands it.

[near jasper]

And that shows widow rebelled against gms how exactly

[plain ruin]

GMS wants to bind her silken strength

[floral quiver]

In one currently unused ending, a daughter. Hornet is staked much like Weaver.

[candid linden]

what could she get from hornet

[near jasper]

Wyrm shit

[twin dragon]

Yk, your question aids my point a bit, the times have changed, the conductor and weaver rules are vastly different from eachother

[low oracle]

As with all Weaver descendants. She wants more power.

[plain ruin]

Strength

More strength

[candid linden]

what even is binding exactly

[low oracle]

My question doesn't do shit when unanswered.

[twin dragon]

Widow didnt rebell against gms whah

[twin dragon]

I just fucking did...

[low oracle]

Absorbing, overtaking. Not killing though. Instead of destroying your opponents power (kill), you bind it (/them).

[plain ruin]

Incorporating the soul of another into oneself, includes their memories, powers, all that stuff. Not fatally, very important detail

[floral quiver]

It showed why Silk would react with unnecessary cruelty to her rebellious daughter which was the concern of the conversation and my answer you asked about.

[near jasper]

Lace wasnt rebellious

[candid linden]

wait so could gms control bugs in her sleep?

[near jasper]

Yep

[twin dragon]

Not till act 3 at least

[candid linden]

wow

how did she know hornet exists

[plain ruin]

You mean the Strung to Serve ending?

[twin dragon]

Scouting parties

[near jasper]

Saw the silk in her body

[floral quiver]

Yes

[near jasper]

Somehow

[plain ruin]

That's not what is happening in that ending

[low oracle]

The answer is because the rules where vastly different?
You know such a things as periods exist, right? The beginning and end of the Conductor rule where vastly different too. That isn't the answer for the exact reason however.

[candid linden]

imagine waking up just to die

its kinda sad for her

[plain ruin]

Hornet isn't a daughter, hornet's a battery

[low oracle]

Not die, she got bound.

[candid linden]

so like is she conscious when bound

or something

[floral quiver]

Lace wasn't rebellious but her relationship with Silk helps elucidate on Her relationship with her other daughters and why she could react with such violence.

[candid linden]

well she died in the void

but in normal ending ig

[low oracle]

Because Hornet tracks back to her through her heritage.

[twin dragon]

Why are you acting like you know the answer for something so vague? Yeah, periods exist, but what indicators could this have that it is part of the early conductor rule

[candid linden]

joestar link type stuff

[twin dragon]

When do you think the citadel started getting adorned

[low oracle]

Not sure, but Hornet can't kill her. Higher Beings are never killed unless by void. NKG doesn't count since it's part of a ritual where it is intended.
Why else would she not just decide to not bind GMS? That's the problem after all, so what else is hindering her. Mostl likely she just can't kill her, hence resolving to binding her instead.

[twin dragon]

We dont know how the pk dies

[crystal marsh]

higher beings are never killed unless via Void
false, counterexample: PK

[near jasper]

I dont see how gms being a bad mother proves widow was rebellious

[plain ruin]

Likely regrets

Regrets are heavily associated with void, yeah?

[crystal marsh]

regrets do not literally become void

[twin dragon]

Widows entire character is staying on gmss side

[low oracle]

Maybe he's alive until YOU kill him by getting the Kingsoul. Personal theory at least, otherwise we know that HBs need followers to survive.

[floral quiver]

It doesn't. That wasnt what was being discussed at that exact point.

[candid linden]

widow legit cut gms hands off so she is consumed by the void and tried to die herself

[low oracle]

The void theory isn't very consistent though.

[crystal marsh]

he's dead before that point

[twin dragon]

Ok so the void materializes out of regrets now? Cant see it anyhere in the palace

[near jasper]

What was the point being discussed???

[low oracle]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............Widow? Are you sure?

[near jasper]

I asked for where we were shown widow was rebellious 😭

[low oracle]

Do we have proof?

[twin dragon]

You think he was a living corpse till we pull the plug?

[candid linden]

oop im tripping

[crystal marsh]

Godseeker remarks that he was "erased so completely" in the last pantheon, and openly questions how he died

[twin dragon]

He didnt seem to have much agency at that point

[plain ruin]

I didn't say that regrets are literally void, nor did I say that void materializes out of regrets. I just said they're associated. They're similar in appearance and impact

[floral quiver]

Why Silk could potentially do what was done to Widow as a punishment rather than just kill her

[low oracle]

Well his mask breaking is a metaphor perhaps. And Unn isn't dead either, they both have no followers though, hence being weak af.

[twin dragon]

..impact?

[dire lynx]

It was the weavers who mutilated widow not gms

[low oracle]

You need Voidheart for P5 though, which proves you killed him already.

[plain ruin]

Void and regrets both have a negative impact on the life of bugs

[near jasper]

Where are we shown widow is rebellious

[plain ruin]

They seem to drain life

[twin dragon]

Some of the mosskin remember unn, or partly, like that one moss knight

[twin dragon]

Mate, do you know how many fucking things have a negative impact?

[plain ruin]

Many things do, but the particular impact is similar

[low oracle]

Well Emilitia also remembers the Pale King, but you get the gist. They still exist after all, just severly weakened. The Radiance could avoid this by forcing her following on to the bugs, which is the infection.

[twin dragon]

Starvation is bad, war is bad, death is bad

[low oracle]

What's the argument here?

[near jasper]

Source?

[low oracle]

War, Famine, Pollution, Death?

[twin dragon]

Well unn doesnt crumble apart like the pk

[plain ruin]

There's similarities between regrets and Void, they seem to be associated

[crystal marsh]

except he was already dead before Kingsoul is acquired, as demonstrated by his body being hollow upon being struck by the Nail

[low oracle]

Unn isn't smacked in the face either. Indirectly proving my theory if so.

[twin dragon]

Void is associated with regrets but not because it do harm to bug therefore it similar

[low oracle]

He's hollow? I don't follow. Is it the sound?

[crystal marsh]

yes

[twin dragon]

This is stupid lmfao as unn can actually move and react

[low oracle]

I don't really agree, the sound as singular proof seems scarce for evidence.

[twin dragon]

Shes visibly alive

[onyx jolt]

isnt he the hollow knight tho

[low oracle]

Well then you tell me what killed him.

[crystal marsh]

even so, he did not die to Void and the original claim I called out is still false

[twin dragon]

We dont know, thats the thing

[onyx jolt]

*thee

[twin dragon]

I remember there were void particles in his room i think?

Is this real fact check ts

[low oracle]

Well we know that it is the common factor of lacking followers. No more than that though.

[crystal marsh]

not proof of void death, we see living beings in rooms with void gas and they're totally fine

[twin dragon]

Yeah but it doesnt make one implode because of it

[low oracle]

Yeah, but he definitely didn't die from void. He's got none of the many signs seen elsewhere.

[floral quiver]

Quite literally, narrative storytelling tropes.

All of my points come from taking the story as intended to have a discrete narrative and reasoning behind said narrative, rather than thinking about every detail as if it was hyper important.

Widow is a brainwashed thrall because that says things about Grandmother Silk. That she's cruel and capricious and if Hornet is truly captured that could happen to her, increasing narrative tension. First Sinner is a captured rebel, holding on through sheer fury and hate because that adds gravitas to the story and the Weaver's silent rebellion, even if they succeeded they still payed for it in the blood of a martyred sister.

[twin dragon]

Long exposure though? And also dead kingsmoulds

[twin dragon]

Then we dont know

[plain ruin]

Regrets are described as a draining force, a darkness that can grow in size and strength. Jiji fears the darkness brought about by the many regrets lingering throughout Hallownest will swallow her whole

[low oracle]

Maybe he reincarnated as the Knight?
I'm sorry I had to make that joke.

[crystal marsh]

he didn't die to void, the guy was blindingly bright in life & handled liquid void multiple times without damage as shown by his workshop

[twin dragon]

This is better thank you

[twin dragon]

Scored a 10

[dire lynx]

Godseeker says that pale king has been dead for a long time

[near jasper]

I know you're trying to say this is that trope but I am just not going to believe widow was rebellious when we are never implied it

[dire lynx]

Even long departed, We feel the afterglow of the God-power that sat this throne... It lays heavy upon this kingdom.
That lingering power alone was beacon enough to draw Us to Hallownest. How bright it must have been to mortal bug stood before it.

A God so strong... Yet erased so completely. How could it happen?

[floral quiver]

The story would be s lesser story if it was such a convoluted mess as is being proclaimed

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but as he was forgotten, his power dimmed, and so probably his light

Actually nvm

The grimm troupe could see it

[low oracle]

Time is literally never explained so how does this help? We only know that things went on for very long, that's about it.

[foggy stratus]

What's going on?

[crystal marsh]

he wasn't forgotten and in fact is still revered by many people who are unaware of his death

[near jasper]

The story also wants to paint weavers in a bad light

They invented slavery

[twin dragon]

Most of them are infected

[low oracle]

Escape while you can

[near jasper]

In pharloom

[low oracle]

They are bad, no light needed.

[foggy stratus]

I wanna know tho.

[plain ruin]

And Void is a darkness that drains the life of bugs, corrupts their souls and threatens to consume shit. I think that perhaps Void can amplify the "power" of regrets, or something to that effect

[foggy stratus]

Take my mind off my latest steel soul death.

[near jasper]

1. What did pale king die from
2. Widow was actually rebelling against gms and then got punished by her to be like we see her

[twin dragon]

It is probably its parallel or physical shape

[floral quiver]

And the Noldor manipulated nations and got lots of men killed but you don't see them being second guessed for some bad supposed attempts at narrative subversion.

[crystal marsh]

We don't know the answer to 1 but we know of things it couldn't have been, such as Void

[low oracle]

-Why is the Pale King dead
-Is the choir we fight composed of 40 soldiers
-Who imprisoned First Sinner (answered)
-Who punished Widow (answered)
-Xero is a karak
-something something misinformation

[floral quiver]

Assumed. Not answered.

There isn't a definite 100% answer

Thus why we disagree so heavily

[twin dragon]

The fucking weavers did

[foggy stratus]

Why would Xero be from Karak?

[near jasper]

Heavily my ass you're the first person I see think this

[plain ruin]

I knew it, the Weavers assassinated the Pale King

[strange horizon]

pale king probably died because of the void

[twin dragon]

Ts is true i was there

Bad stuff spiders, bad stuff

[foggy stratus]

No, he didnt. He physically couldn't have.

[strange horizon]

How

[foggy stratus]

He glows.

[near jasper]

-# Who

[dire lynx]

Not like my goat midwife, that's a good spider there

[floral quiver]

Really? You've never seen a fan say what I am. I am completely alone in my assumptions on how the story works?

Thats wild

[near jasper]

Yes you are alone

[foggy stratus]

What are you assuming?

[twin dragon]

Jokes aside the weavers locked up fs, of what was left of her

[dire lynx]

That widow was mutilated by gms

[near jasper]

Widow was rebellious and brainwashed by gms into worship

[strange horizon]

You mean delicate flower ?

[foggy stratus]

No, I mean PK glows.

[plain ruin]

There have definitely been other people suggesting that Widow and FS were both mutilated/imprisoned by GMS, it was a common theory around release

[foggy stratus]

I had also assumed that.

[strange horizon]

How does him glowing repel the void i dont understand

[plain ruin]

But that theory has grown less common because people's understanding of the lore has developed

[dire lynx]

Lighthouse

[near jasper]

I wasnt in the community at release for spoilers

[foggy stratus]

Light repels Void and he's bright as fuck.

[strange horizon]

oh

that makes sense

[floral quiver]

People's assumptions have evolved.

Like all fan stuff a lot of it is built on hyperfocusing on relatively extraneous bits and losing the basic narrative because it needs to be complex and nuanced and subversive.

[strange horizon]

maybe pk tripped on a buzzsaw

[dire lynx]

Little one, we stand in the King's Station! Named of course for the King of Hallownest, he who ordered the building of the stagways and stations.
The King never rode the stagways himself, but I've heard he was a glorious bug to behold, bright and radiant in visage, so much so it hurt to look at him.

[near jasper]

I think you wanna prove that widow was rebellious outside assuming a trope

[plain ruin]

None of the supporting details we've brought up are extraneous

The fact that the Citadel Symbol, which is definitively inspired by the cocoon containing the sleeping monarch, is on the door of the First Sinner's cage, is the opposite of an extraneous detail

[low oracle]

A conclusion drawn from actual evidence is an answer. An assumption was made on your side, not mine.

[low oracle]

Look at him.

[foggy stratus]

He's red and has horns. So?

[floral quiver]

They are. The gilding and symbol is extraneous to First Sinner's words and role in the narrative alongside the other Weavers.

[onyx jolt]

hornets also red with horns

[floral quiver]

She is there to wait and hate and fury.

[near jasper]

I am just going to assume team cherry put the citadel symbol because the citadel existed no thanks

[plain ruin]

Do you even know what extraneous means?

How are the details of the cage containing FS extraneous

That's like saying the fact that she's contained with silk runes is extraneous

[floral quiver]

Extra and unnecessary to get the narrative point of the scene or character.

[low oracle]

Well someone will disagree with me anyways, but I just want to preface this with: If you disagree, say actual arguments that don't involve "coincidence, not proven".

So here. Do you agree or disagree?

[plain ruin]

They're details that should be considered when theorizing who did/didn't imprison FS

[near jasper]

These disprove the point you are claiming she has

[plain ruin]

Says here that it means "Irrelevant or unrelated to the subject being dealt with." I guess the cage of a prisoner isn't relevant to the current state of the prisoner's existence

[floral quiver]

And her words? Why didnt she mention her hate of her traitorous sisters, why did she mention Our rage while talking about her being sustained by hate until she died waiting?

[low oracle]

Because she doesn't think that way. She looks at the core, the seed of the problem.

[foggy stratus]

Do you have an argument beyond "they kinda look alike"?

[near jasper]

You can only blame people who believe a lie so much before you blame the liar

[floral quiver]

Doesn't look like it to me. Looks to me like she's still furious even as a long dead corpse.

[dire lynx]

its the same reason hornet blames gms for the fall of verdania even tho it happened under conductor rule

[near jasper]

She is still furious

No one said something against that

[plain ruin]

The armor and color scheme is pretty similar, sure, but that helmet is different, as are those little "vine" thingies, whatever they are

[lone folio]

The grave guy I do believe that he is from karak but I feel like xero isn't

[near jasper]

I would believe your point about the role of widow and first sinner if you could find any proof

[onyx jolt]

the fat one yes xero no

[foggy stratus]

Ok so: He has a cloak and a entirely different horn shape, different weapons choice and is in Hallownest.

[onyx jolt]

those are his cape

[twin dragon]

Gp describes the haunting btw

In his dialogues

[foggy stratus]

Also his armor is different and more segmented than that of Karak's.

[twin dragon]

But it would be interesting to see the citadel keep their deal as they did with nyleth

[plain ruin]

Weird looking cape, how does it interact with his Karak composition? Would it also crumble to dust?

Actually how does that work anyways

Are they just all straight up made of the same material they use for their armor

[dire lynx]

where

[twin dragon]

Check the wiki n read the citadel dialogue im in bed rn

When hes mourning the cogwork dancers

[plain ruin]

iirc he said it fell to thread and ruin or something like that

[twin dragon]

Yes

Also mentions how the citadel was claimed with the same fate as his lands

[dire lynx]

you mean like the silk dregs that were spat out by the organ?

[twin dragon]

Ehh i dont think he implies thag

[plain ruin]

nah, it implied it was the haunting

Also there's no visible signs of pollution in modern Verdania

[twin dragon]

Its js dried

And collapsed

[plain ruin]

it's just in a general state of ruin

[low oracle]

Sure. However the main argument is that they look alike, which is to be expected. And I mean, do you disagree?

APPEARANCES:
Garro and Xero both have the same colour scheme. Red armor, black edges (shoulder pads, etc.) and white eyes. Their helmets vary, but at the same time in a similar way. It just comes down to a shape with the inside being black. The armor also has a line pattern.

All of these things are properties shared by the Karaka. So what is different with Xero and why do people call him a moth?

He has two main differences; the mothwing cloak and the weapons being nails. Both of these have explanations however. Starting off, both these spirits came to Hallownest.
Xero served the Pale King as a soldier, which would explain his use of the nail. It is unclear wether he dual wielded or why he controls several nails, but they were likely his weapon. The Mothwing cloak is a mystery, though it isn't impossible for him to have simply gotten it from somewhere. After all a vessel did too.

Why Xero can't be a moth:
Moths are simply put, different. Markoth was supposedly the only Moth to take a weapon, though Whistlewind kind of disporves this claim. However there are clear visual differences. Markoth clearly wears armor, unlike the karaka (type) style where it is organic. Moths have fur around their neck, which Xero lacks. But most of all, Xero uses nails. Not Dreamnails like Markoth. And the cloak alone isn't any proof either. You wouldn't call the Knight a moth because it has a mothwing cloak either.
There are also other unique Karaka. Khan and the Watcher at the edge in Silksong. So nothing determines Xero and Garro don't fit either.

What do you think? @foggy stratus @onyx jolt @lone folio

[dire lynx]

the haunting is recent and verdania is directly stated to have fallen long ago

[plain ruin]

The haunting is pretty old

It's been going on for a decent while

[twin dragon]

Relatively speaking yes, but it is quite old

Plus the region directly dffected by the organs waste is bilewated

If verdania was in the range, graymoor wouldve suffered too

[low oracle]

Verdania suffered because of the pain of the Green Prince.

[near jasper]

Were the craws there during verdanias time

[twin dragon]

It is in some way directly connected to the haunting

Also how the fuck does hornet know this shit

[low oracle]

The Green Prince suffered because his partner sacrificed himself.

[plain ruin]

GP's absence and anguish probably sped things up a bit

[foggy stratus]

Xero's armor segmentation is different from that of Karak's, his cloak appears to be a part of his body with it going under his armor and I'm not sure the timelines would match up. I believe the Weavers were already in Hallownest by the time PK got there which would mean roughly GMS would be starting to break out and the Conductors would be in charge, meaning Karak would be dried up and very very few would be in any shape to migrate.

[low oracle]

Prolly, they got an entire civilisation.

[twin dragon]

Verdanias fall is directly described to be because of sill n ruin

[near jasper]

Cool

[twin dragon]

Silk

[near jasper]

Verdanias fall is directly described to be because of silly

[twin dragon]

Not sill

Wtf is sill

[floral quiver]

My problem is that my reasoning comes from what makes a good, compelling story in the vein that Silksong is (at least to my eyes). Not assumptions based on background art, but on how the character's backstory's would affect the story.

Widow and FS being victims of the Weavers makes a neat twist and subversion but that takes away from Grandmother Silk. It takes away from the Weavers as clever and cunning but vulnerable characters in a epic drama involving rebellion. It takes away from the potential threat to Hornet personified by Widow, it takes away from Alta's rage at her imprisonment and forgotten status, trapped until she died never knowing freedom.

Like, no I can't prove it. Because any proof would be subjective because there's no definite, explicit, literally tell you directly to your face proof.

There's evidence, but not proof.

[twin dragon]

Evidence is proof..

[near jasper]

Your evidence is subjective

[floral quiver]

Yes!

[near jasper]

How can that be considered evidence then

[floral quiver]

Because evidence isn't proof. Its evidence. Its a thing that potentially leads to an assumption.

[twin dragon]

Your honor! I didnt murder 3 whole families in my opinion

No, evidence is backing up something with objectivity

[dire lynx]

the widow getting lobotomised by weavers cutscene in the files

[near jasper]

You could say the same thing about their 2 roles is showing that the weavers were not good either and that they suffered from the same narcisism as gms but that wouldnt be a compelling story to your eyes

[floral quiver]

How do crimes get mishandled? They have evidence. That should be proof!

[low oracle]

-Xero and Garro could've departed before the drought and survived in Hallownest
-the segmentation is inverted but still very similar
-the cloak goes under the shoulder pads, which would be possible anyway if they are part of his body
-Xero and Garro are unique, inherently marking the stronger than the other Karaka (Khan, Watcher at the Edge).

[plain ruin]

Okay, but there is plenty of evidence that the Weavers were power-hungry bastards. They loved ruling over Pharloom, and they were clearly willing to do some nasty things to achieve and maintain that rule. Is it really so hard to believe that this lust for power could be stronger than the power of sisterhood?

[twin dragon]

Because the evidence sometimes is flat out wrong, not because it is up to intepretation

[floral quiver]

Well no. Or id be rolling with it.

[low oracle]

Anyone arguing with this should just leave the chat really....

[twin dragon]

Or some people dont take it into account

[near jasper]

?

[limpid summit]

A major theme of the game is oppressed beings lashing out at the world and becoming oppressors

GMS, Weavers, Lace

[near jasper]

Radiance

[floral quiver]

I dont find it as compelling. To me. It's not my kind of story.

[limpid summit]

The weavers are nuanced as figures who righteously broke their chains and then became malicious and power hungry

[low oracle]

Radiance wasn't oppressed.

[near jasper]

Thats subjective

[twin dragon]

Well the story doesnt have to be how you want it to be

[floral quiver]

Yes. I never claimed objectivity. I explained my reasoning and didnt claim otherwise, if I did I dont know when.

[near jasper]

Why are you putting your headcanons in the lore channel

[plain ruin]

You called objectively relevant details "extraneous"

[low oracle]

Well sucks for you then, that's just how it is. The Weavers, GMS, the Conductors, they all are morally wrong. Only Hornet manages to break the cycle of hate.

[limpid summit]

And she’s morally wrong too

[twin dragon]

Couldve the hauntings strings collapse the caves of verdania, or yk, make gp even sadder

[foggy stratus]

That would make them insanely ancient and probably crusty, no other Karak displays any cloak like protrusions making it highly odd that they'd be the only one with them, no other Karak displays similar segmentation besides the super large one and Khan(but it's still super weird and highly unique.)

[low oracle]

Headcannons are okay, just not if they are literally disproven.

[near jasper]

Exactly

[twin dragon]

Cuz everyone is getting hooked up to gmss wifi

[floral quiver]

Because outside of a few things all of this is headcanon. Just consensually accepted headcanon.

You've got more believers than me

[low oracle]

The Karaka are ancient, they're pre-GMS arrival.

[twin dragon]

Dont ask hornet what she wrote about the flies in her personal diary

[near jasper]

Outside evidence theres no evidence its true

[foggy stratus]

Yes, but the only one we've seen that "survived" the drought is super crusted over and we have no idea how long they can even live for.

[limpid summit]

Watcher is probably crusty because it’s facing the sandstorm and out in the open

[gentle aspen]

he just didn’t wash his face

[low oracle]

I disagree with the racism part.
She calls out against their order, and rightfully so. She calls them scummy, which is true, even if she could just say they should bathe. The breeding part is hard to defend, but in a way she is right that it is morally wrong to continue the cycle of torture by having children.

[dire lynx]

thats why his coral bleached

[twin dragon]

Well she doesnt pity them as slaves yk

[gentle aspen]

they’re slaves

they don’t have a choice

[twin dragon]

She just sees the bad part

[near jasper]

How did the memorium not flood when the karak enclosure break down when no one kept to it

[dire lynx]

"these people shouldnt breed"
nah bro wdym, she just doesnt like their role in society

[twin dragon]

This is literally indefensible

[floral quiver]

Wow.

Um

Dude

Or lady

[foggy stratus]

They also made her cloak stink of fly.

[twin dragon]

Man

[floral quiver]

Damn

[urban solar]

Bruh what’s going on

[near jasper]

Idk anymore

[low oracle]

Counterpoint: The drought wouldn't affect them in Hallownest. Maybe that's even the reason they travelled to Hallownest. And I'm speaking for both Xero and Garro. If you call Garro a Karaka you basically can't exclude Xero either.

[twin dragon]

Between your takes and this i couldnt really pick which one is most curious

[urban solar]

Pointless arguing, minds comparable to the weird silverfish looking things in deepnest

[floral quiver]

Hey, at least I'm not the one softly defending Hornets racist opinions.

[dire lynx]

"i feel no pity for their plight as slaves"
nah bro, shes not a blindly raging racist is wear

[urban solar]

It’s legit a game

[plain ruin]

Flies are a species, not a race

[floral quiver]

Speciesist then

You know exactly what I mean

[twin dragon]

Talking about triple diamond, it isnt directed towards you

[plain ruin]

Or not a race in our typical understanding

[near jasper]

I wish I could leave this convo without breaking the conductors laws and getting slabbed

[plain ruin]

It's like Dwarves and Elves

[foggy stratus]

A.) Why would they leave Karak and
B.) How would they get to Hallownest from Pharloom? Its likely a long, waterless journey.

[plain ruin]

Hornet's the Elf and the flies are the Dwarves

[urban solar]

TO THE SLAB WITH THEE

[near jasper]

I mean storms are a thing

[twin dragon]

I mean they are sapient and presumably close to hornet on an intellectual level sooi

[foggy stratus]

In like one region.

[floral quiver]

And the elves and dwarves are bigoted toward each other and thats acknowledged as bad

[urban solar]

I think the word is sentient

[low oracle]

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the entries. I just think that dumbing it down to "Hornet is racist" is wrong. Especially with the way species are portrayed. All Skarr want to kill pilgrims (not all mottled ones) but does that mean Pilgrims are racist towards Skarr when avoiding them?
Btw, should I not ping you?

[dire lynx]

no, its sapient

[urban solar]

My bad

[low oracle]

Sapient=higher thoughts
sentient=aware

[plain ruin]

Well yeah it's a messed up thing for Hornet to say, of course

[urban solar]

Right right, I’ll remember

[twin dragon]

Sentient is being able to feel n process, sapient would be smt like high intellect animal like a chimp

I think

[limpid summit]

The entries paint her as racist unfortunately she derides the flies themselves rather than their order and barely acknowledges their circumstances

I shy away from saying characters are racist jokingly it tends to dumb the issue down but like Hornet sort of is

[floral quiver]

Then what's with the fanagaling about word choice?

[low oracle]

Ummmm, just say human. Chimps are sapient I guess, but I don't know how much we should consider them as intellectual beings.

[floral quiver]

Not intending meanness

[plain ruin]

Because these are bugs, not humans

[twin dragon]

Theyve been capable of impressive shit, for a chimp

[low oracle]

She does say "their distasteful order" in an entry.

[plain ruin]

Our real world understanding of race, our definition of racist, doesn't apply to this situation

[floral quiver]

Aah, specificity, got it.

[finite wind]

Welcome to discord bud

[dire lynx]

pedantry*

[low oracle]

Exactly, for a chimp. Either way, I don't want to talk about monkeys.

[plain ruin]

Humans are biologically similar, race is a social construct

[limpid summit]

Disgusting both in manner and stench. I feel no remorse to see them felled.

Bro she’s killing slaves with no remorse and calling them smelly

It’s not the order

[floral quiver]

Well it does, it's just that it's an assumption. "Hornet acts how humans see as racist, thus hornet is having a minor moral failing thanks to trauma"

[finite wind]

Yeah slaves who did nothing wrong yeah

They don't have an unfair prision system going nonl

[foggy stratus]

I mean, they do stink but yeah she's at least highly prejudice against the flies.

[finite wind]

We're gonna ignore that

[limpid summit]

Well true

But it’s not like a constructive thing idk

It’s weird and out of character

[low oracle]

Absolutely. The issue in Silksong is that a species and a job or group isn't separated. Hence Slabflies are difficult to judge without judging their species, when their species only exists how it does currently.

[limpid summit]

TC just got too carried away with the fly spider metaphor

[finite wind]

???

How so

[limpid summit]

“We do not choose our mothers”

[dire lynx]

the messaging through the entire rest of the game

did you play it?

[limpid summit]

She’s understanding of circumstances at birth she feels super sorry for PV but can’t feel for a slave race

[floral quiver]

Intentionally so. It's a personal failing thanks to her multiple imprisonments. It's character building through flaws.

[low oracle]

Rightfully so, they torture pilgrims and imprisoned her. I'm saying she is rightfully prejudictal, not whatever some guy wants to call me.

[finite wind]

Idk did you? Cause the fleas captured and stripped me

And they spit at you

I would say they are disgusting and deserve to die from my (hornet's) pov

[dire lynx]

she writes the same entry if they dont capture her

[foggy stratus]

Can someone pull the flies' needloine dialogue?

[low oracle]

Let me ask you all a question. Do you consider the Karaka good or bad?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet being racist is a great plotpoint just like how her decimating local ecosystems and ripping an old lady's heart out is an intentional character flaw

[limpid summit]

Lmao I don’t see her calling Gurr the outcast a disgusting freak

[plain ruin]

It doesn't though, because again, these are two different species of insects we're talking about. Flies seem to innately lack an inclination for cleanliness, just as the Snitchflies are inclined to be thieves

[limpid summit]

I mean it doesn’t matter really right

It’s what she thinks

[sinful nimbus]

What

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t speak derisively of the Karak

[low oracle]

Answer the question please.

[dire lynx]

Wardenfly

O sinner! O filth!
Lay yourself down...
Be caged! Be caged!
Let my duty... absolve me...
You! You are the sinner!
Why was I born in the filth?
I'll be cleansed...
You! The filth! It's you!
By toil... by torment...
I'm clean... I'm cleaner!

[finite wind]

Yeah I don't think taking karmelita's heart is ever intended to be shown as STH bad to do

[near jasper]

Neutral

[low oracle]

Are the Karaka good or bad in your opinion?

[plain ruin]

Pale beings, also Weavers, naturally desire to rule over many others, they revel in subjugation

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t that is my answer

The Karak aren’t slaves

[floral quiver]

And she's not actually mad that they stink. It's something to justify her prejudice.

[limpid summit]

That is racism

[floral quiver]

Yes!

[limpid summit]

Thank you

[floral quiver]

Hornet is bigoted against flies!

[foggy stratus]

They're decent. Likely excellent wartime leaders. Peacetime tho, not so much. I like em tbh.

[low oracle]

Then you fail to understand. The Karaka, for your information, kill whoever they deem weak. They slaughter other tribes with no mercy and no regard. Are they still neutral?

[plain ruin]

She is using that to justify her prejudice, yes

[finite wind]

I am too👋

[low oracle]

(this is a joke btw)

[foggy stratus]

My type of people

[sinful nimbus]

Karaka are bad

Not because of some innate quality but because of their culture/leader

[low oracle]

FINALLY SOMEONE THAT CAN ANSWER, THANK YOU.

[foggy fractal]

😔 is anyone in pharloom good?

[foggy stratus]

Karmel.

[near jasper]

Michael

[finite wind]

Hi guys

[near jasper]

Mottled skarr

[covert night]

me

[limpid summit]

The culture of Karak as a warrior tribe is unsympathetic

[floral quiver]

How relative do you want to get?

[limpid summit]

They weren’t forced into that role by a powerful party though

[dire lynx]

Bell hermit

[limpid summit]

The flies are visibly downtrodden

[sinful nimbus]

There can be toxic aspects of cultures that systemically force members of them to do bad things without Ms. Hornet "I HATE CHILD SLAVES" Hallownest needing to comment about how they should all stop breeding

[near jasper]

Against abortion

[floral quiver]

You. I like you. You made me laugh. 🙂

I agree!

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you

[dire lynx]

bell hermit is pro choice

[covert night]

why did tc add this entry

[sinful nimbus]

Bell Hermit is hardcore conservative but he has a change of heart in Act 3 fr

[foggy stratus]

Which one?

[limpid summit]

Hornet to the Verdanians: Your child soldiers are so efficient
Hornet to the newly born freshflies who can be saved:

[covert night]

baby slabfly or whatever theyre called

[finite wind]

Does she need to say that stuff about flies or say anything at all about anyone? No, does what she says make sense? 100%

[sinful nimbus]

They probably were just trying to make some lighthearted jokes without thinking of the implications

[foggy stratus]

The ones from Broodmother?

[covert night]

"the less these bugs breed the better" entry

[sinful nimbus]

Because lets be real TC probably didn't intend for Hornet to be a raging racist without ever addressing or resolving this fact its just like 4 throwaway entries

[foggy fractal]

alright take your pick

The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better. - Freshfly

Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits no sympathy from me. - Scabfly

The smell from these jailers overwhelms my senses. I strongly doubt they have ever thought to bathe. - Guardfly

Disgusting both in manner and stench. I feel no remorse to see them felled. - Wardenfly

With this one vanquished, I hope to have sped the end for that jail and its distasteful order. - Broodmother

[covert night]

possibly

[floral quiver]

To show just how far Hornet's flaws reach.

She has a major flaw of prejudice against people who imprison and humiliate her.

[limpid summit]

Can you beat Broodmother without killing a Freshfly

[floral quiver]

Even if they're otherwise sympathetic

[sinful nimbus]

I mean she's not prejudiced against the choir who kidnapped her

[foggy stratus]

No.

[finite wind]

Is that a flaw??? What are we saying

[low oracle]

"Can you beat a mother that throws babies at you, without the babies getting harmed"

[near jasper]

Reminder hornet just assumed songclave wanted something dead because it was in the slab from the broodmother Wish

[floral quiver]

Yes?

Bigotry is a flaw.

[finite wind]

Like hornet is not allowed to hate the bugs that trapped her??? Why is no one complaining about her killing them then ffs

[low oracle]

So anyway, here is my point:
"The Karaka are bad" is a logical statement; their morals aren't considerate of others and what people should deem right.
However this also brings the issue of prejudice. The statement calls all Karaka bad, which could be seen as racism. Only this is Silksong. The game where art breaks logic. A species doesn't behave like we humans do. They often have a purpose that they're designated to by Team Cherry. Buring Bugs are all part of the cult. Skarr are all hunters. Etc.
The Slabflies are no different. They might as well have been different species and there would not be much change. But because they are a single species, people claim racism. Do you get it now?

[near jasper]

Except when they dont trap her

[finite wind]

They
Captured
Her

She is valid in everything why are we not thinking

[dire lynx]

ENTRY IS SAME WHETHER SHE GETS CAPTURED OR NOT

[finite wind]

Capture, whatever you want to call it

[near jasper]

They didnt

[low oracle]

Game design though.

[near jasper]

The vault babies get a different entry for act 3 or act 2 killing

[floral quiver]

She's hating them even after realizing their sympathetic lore.

Because she's bigoted.

[finite wind]

Even if they didn't capture her, they still capture other bugs AND EVEN WORSE THEY LITERALLY TRY TO KILL HER ON SIGHT

[near jasper]

Every haunted bug does that

[plain ruin]

The entry for Vaultborn changes depending on how they become freed. She detests the flies because they aren't clean, and this hate is exacerbated by capture

[floral quiver]

So?

[low oracle]

Not babies, also the entry differs very mildly.

[finite wind]

Whatever their reasoning is, they can just stop doing what they are adding and nobody would care

[finite wind]

Yes and?

[near jasper]

Vault middle schoolers

[floral quiver]

It's nice being on the consensus side of things! 😄 :joking

[limpid summit]

I think they cut that

[covert night]

only change when she gets captured is "smells strongly of fly" entry is added on her cloak description

[limpid summit]

But like yeah they can do it

[near jasper]

No

I have both on my saves

[low oracle]

@near jasper @floral quiver @finite wind
Just so this doesn't get burrowed, I've got some arguments.

So anyway, here is my point:
"The Karaka are bad" is a logical statement; their morals aren't considerate of others and what people should deem right.
However this also brings the issue of prejudice. The statement calls all Karaka bad, which could be seen as racism. Only this is Silksong. The game where art breaks logic. A species doesn't behave like we humans do. They often have a purpose that they're designated to by Team Cherry. Buring Bugs are all part of the cult. Skarr are all hunters. Etc.
The Slabflies are no different. They might as well have been different species and there would not be much change. But because they are a single species, people claim racism. Do you get it now?

[limpid summit]

Oh for real

[sinful nimbus]

Okay but fiction shouldn't portray slaves who are thematically meant to show how evil their oppressors are as all inherently evil lmao

[limpid summit]

TC does sort of get homogenous with their species/tribes and that’s not inherently a problem it’s just how they chose to handle this one

[low oracle]

Broodling, the only fly that isn't evil gets spared by Hornet. Wouldn't this prove my point then?

[dire lynx]

the order of karak(khann) is bad, we cannot say the same of the people who live under that system

[limpid summit]

“She doesn’t kill a baby”

[floral quiver]

And they don't. Hornet is overly critical because she's prejudiced!

[near jasper]

They explode

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think this is intentional

[near jasper]

Shes in a cave made out of slime

[floral quiver]

That she's prejudiced?

[sinful nimbus]

Its never acknowledged or resolved that she's racist its 4 throwaway entries

[foggy stratus]

"She doesn't kill a particular baby"

[limpid summit]

Is this the limit

She’s an ally ✊

[low oracle]

Yes we can. You are responsible for who you support.

"The limits of tyrants are made by the people whom they oppress."

[floral quiver]

Well yeah, those entries are written by a racist talking racistedly

[near jasper]

Reminder hornet just ripped out broodmother's to give to songlclave of no wish from them

[sinful nimbus]

Why is Hornet racist

[floral quiver]

Of course they dont acknowledge their racism

[near jasper]

The wish for broodmother never asks you to kill something

[sinful nimbus]

OK but this is a piece of writing from Team Cherry

[near jasper]

She just guesses she should

[low oracle]

What?

[dire lynx]

the options are comply or die, and the person enforcing it is essentially a blood bender to the karak

[floral quiver]

She hates the Flies way more than she does literally every other thing in the entire of pharloom to a comical and obvious degree

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah its played off as a joke

[finite wind]

I swear to god you guys don't seem to give a fuck about hornet killing "slaves" but when she wishes them to go extinct because of valid reasons (they running a prision that puts innocent bugs in eternal imprisonment) then now we go insane

[low oracle]

Where the does this come from now? I've never heard of Khan having control over their bodies more than through command.

[floral quiver]

It's humorous but an intentional part of her character.

Hornet has a prejudice problem when flies are involved.

[limpid summit]

I like how old penitent schools her and she doesn’t even say anything

[limpid summit]

But she doesn’t really

Yarnaby

[sinful nimbus]

You see a bunch of goofy kinda mean and cartoony jailers you beat them up with heroic action music and there's some entries of Hornet slandering them the average player isn't coming away from the slab thinking "Wow Hornet is a deeply flawed and prejudiced character"

[dire lynx]

they have coral growing in their bodies, its why they turn to crust upon death

[sinful nimbus]

That would just be poor handling of her character

[limpid summit]

If you put hardstyle over it, it would look like a hyperborean chud edit

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/corn-silly-porcupine-eat-gif-532232702216691501

[low oracle]

Apparently it is racist to be against a race that continues a cycle of torture for everyone involved.

[finite wind]

That's just poor people's interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

Her being racist doesn't contribute anything its not done for some deep rooted reason since its never addressed again it just makes her kinda unlikeable

[limpid summit]

Good thing no one’s done that

[near jasper]

Man what even is this chat

[finite wind]

Ikr

[plain ruin]

Yarnaby isn't the same species of insect as the Slabflies

[foggy fractal]

whats hyperborean and whats it got to do with this chud?

[floral quiver]

I dont think she's deeply flawed I think it's a flaw. One that is counterbalanced heavily by her literally everything else.

[low oracle]

ITS NOT RACISM WHEN THE SPECIES IS 1:1 WITH THE ORDER.

[finite wind]

If you like hornet less because of what she writes about the flies then I'm just😭

[floral quiver]

... bigotry

[sinful nimbus]

If she's racist that is kinda a deep flaw

[finite wind]

#sk-lore message

[sinful nimbus]

One that's never given the time it needs nor does it serve the narrative in any way (Its not like she's part of the oppressors)

[finite wind]

What about this???

[limpid summit]

There’s lots of reasons not to like her to be fair

[near jasper]

Do you think the bellveins are from weaver era citadel or conductor era citadel

[sinful nimbus]

She kills all enemies in self defense lmao that's not the same as calling for eugenics in her journal

[finite wind]

Being racists against an oppressive race is bad??

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[limpid summit]

Yes??

[floral quiver]

Yes.

[low oracle]

Prolly Conductor, they served the purpose of carrying golden cages through them. Golden gives it away.

[limpid summit]

There’s no such thing as an oppressive race

[sinful nimbus]

Can you stop to think about this for maybe a few seconds

[finite wind]

Omg

We lack critical thinking now

[low oracle]

Karaka???

[floral quiver]

No?

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think if there's bad aspects of a culture everyone should just stop breeding

That's eugenics bruh

[near jasper]

Why are they outlawed for pilgrims

[plain ruin]

The Slabflies aren't a naturally oppressive species, there's nothing to indicate that. They're just kinda stinky

[sinful nimbus]

How did 1 mistake TC made lead to half of Silksong's fans accidentally writing apologia for eugenics

[limpid summit]

Literally the Order of Karak dude

[low oracle]

Because pilgrims can't use weapons, armor, tools, etc.
It's how they practice the religion.

[finite wind]

Why are we sugar coqting this???

"A bad aspect of a culture"

My guy the whole thing the flies are about is running an unfair oppressive system there's not good thing about this guys

[limpid summit]

Is Garro a deplorable evil monster

[floral quiver]

And they themselves are oppressed heavily for a crime long forgotten

[low oracle]

Are we for fucking real? DO YOU GUYS NOT KNOW THAT THE SLAB IS AN ORDER TOO???

[dire lynx]

the karaka existed before khann, he was an evil ruler who forced his subjects to enforce an evil regime. are the pilgrims evil?

[floral quiver]

Thats not on them. They were forced to.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that's #1

[foggy fractal]

if pk wanted an etneral kingdom he should've just gotten everyone on the slabfly discourse that way everyone will still have to be around to discuss it

[sinful nimbus]

Second of all its not like all weavers should die or all regular citadel bugs should die or irl like all white people should die (all memes aside)

[low oracle]

The Karaka are described as an oppressive species, not just Khan.

[finite wind]

They are not anymore and haven't for a long time! If the flies just left the slab to do their own thing, who's gonna come and punish them?

[floral quiver]

The Citadel.

[finite wind]

The dead citadel?

There's literally one one alive and hasn't been for a long time

[near jasper]

Haunting sized room in the elephant

[finite wind]

Do you think GMS cares about running the slab?

[low oracle]

If all white people were torturing innocent people, they should die.

[plain ruin]

The Citadel is dead but the religion lives on

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe the child slaves should just stand up for themselves yknow

[near jasper]

No, thats why she justs keeps them doing the same tasks

[sinful nimbus]

🥴

[finite wind]

No? Again, if the citadel is dead, who would punish them

[sinful nimbus]

Or you could yknow stop getting them to torture people

Not killing anyone would be kinda nice but idk

[near jasper]

There is no one to punish because the slab is as dead as the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe eugenics is a good idea we should all stop breeding

[plain ruin]

No to what? The religion of the Citadel is absolutely still dominant throughout Pharloom

There is no debate to be had about that

[foggy fractal]

damn why didn't the slabflies think of that?

[plain ruin]

The religion has outlived its source

[foggy stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/ultrasad-gif-23310565

[finite wind]

Oh! So then this whole convo didn't make sense because the flies aren't doing the bad things! GMS is "making them do it" (even though that's not how it works) so then hornet never got mad at the flies, she just hates what GMS is making them do

[near jasper]

They were doing bad things

[low oracle]

Well I said "if". And guess what? There is one slabfly that doesn't torture. That Slabfly is the Broodling. There's also one slabfly that doesn't get killed. Now gues what.

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension devil

[finite wind]

No?? Everyone in the citadel is dead, what religion?

[near jasper]

While enslaved by the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

OK but she says they should all stop breeding

[covert night]

how do we know if order of the slab didn't exist flies would still be evil

[sinful nimbus]

tf did the children do

[plain ruin]

Have you ever heard of Bone Bottom, boss?

[sinful nimbus]

We don't

[floral quiver]

The Haunting makes them work. It makes them play a role.

[plain ruin]

And the Pilgrims that continue to use it as a basecamp before they climb to the Citadel

[foggy fractal]

be stinky

[limpid summit]

“The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better.”

If she wanted to say “No bug should be born into such an oppressive order” she WOULD

[finite wind]

The bone bottom bugs are gonna punish the slab? Otherwise there's no point in bringing it up

[sinful nimbus]

But HK fans are incapable of grasping literally anything systemically evil despite the fact that systemic injustice is literally the theme of silksong

[plain ruin]

What the fuck are you even saying?

[foggy fractal]

maybe sea of sorrow will fix this 😔

[plain ruin]

I never said that, I never suggested that lol

[floral quiver]

Thus why there is paperwork about Hornet's abduction despite the Citadel being "Dead"

[dire lynx]

pilgrims rest, songclave, bellhart

[finite wind]

That's my question to you my guy, we're talking about who's gonna punish the flies if they stopped working and you're just bringing random shit up

[floral quiver]

Because it's undead

[plain ruin]

I'm saying Bone Bottom is evidence that the Citadel's religion is still in power throughout Pharloom

[low oracle]

I disagree with that statement, it should've been "they should all stop breeding within this place of continuous torture." Or something along those lines.

[plain ruin]

These as well, the religion is very much alive

[finite wind]

No that's nothing to do with that lol

[floral quiver]

Controlled by Silk but still acting its roles

[dire lynx]

exactly

[near jasper]

The same people who would punish the flies when they werent haunted

[sinful nimbus]

Its true that the slabflies are to some extent responsible for the oppression that goes on its just not an excuse for them to all die out as a species cuz that's monstrously inhumane

[covert night]

then being racist against them is nonsense. it's the order that use flies as a torture device

[sinful nimbus]

That's functionally the same thing they are ALL in the slab

[low oracle]

But it is reshaped to form hope. And when the religion doesn't harm anyone it isn't really bad. I guess the Judges and Underworks could be removed though.

[limpid summit]

Loam

[finite wind]

If they keep trapping bugs unfairly and there's no way of reasoning with them since they attack on sight, they do deserve death hes

[plain ruin]

You literally said "Everyone in the citadel is dead, what religion?" The Citadel is pretty damn dead, yes, but the religion of the Citadel is an idea, a belief. It doesn't die with its creator because it can live on in other believers

[floral quiver]

@finite wind how does the Haunting work, to you?

[low oracle]

Exactly my point. The problem isn't the species, it's their job. And it isn't very cool to have children that continue this job.

[sinful nimbus]

Why are silksong fans all cartoonishly evil bruh

[low oracle]

Does that include me?

[plain ruin]

If you think the Citadel religion is dead, you might wanna replay the game and read the dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

No comment

[plain ruin]

Because I think you missed a few details, boss

[low oracle]

awwwww

[near jasper]

They keep trapping bugs unfairly because the haunting keeps them working their job

[low oracle]

how sad

I am

now

[foggy fractal]

:) I'm gonna steal your copy of silksong!

[floral quiver]

The Citadel isn't even dead. It's got paperwork about operations going on for years. Including Hornet's.

It's Haunted

[low oracle]

I'm gonna steal the Hornet with my Horninator

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway its not immoral to have children that will be forced to do bad things idk what to tell you

[near jasper]

The citadel is a weaver laundering operation but its still something

[covert night]

there is no evidence that they are programmed to trap bugs, they are born in that system

[plain ruin]

Well yeah, dead but reanimated through the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

If you analyze this from a perspective of social groups it kinda very quickly boils down to "This oppressed group should stop breeding"

[floral quiver]

Thus the flies would be punished! 🙂

[near jasper]

Gms only stops bugs from doing their job when she needs to

[low oracle]

Yes! Exactly what I mean.

[floral quiver]

And otherwise uses their jobs to her dreaming ends

[finite wind]

Ok? I'll repeat my question then
Who's gonna punish the flies if they left? You could've just said no one and they are just doing it either because they like it, because they're haunted or because they're ignorant that the citadel is no more

The first and third option are unlikely, so if we go by the second one. Then what hornet says about the flies is irrelevant because she's talking about a "brainwashed" version of them. (Even if they weren't brainwashed, their actions are still bad).

If you do want to consider what hornet says relevant, then she's justified cause there's no way to stop what the flies are doing except by killing them and their mother so the whole slab system stops. The flies would stop being miserable and random pilgrims would stop being dragged to prison for no reason

[plain ruin]

Anyways, the Slabflies still believe that they are paying penance through their service in the Slab. To deviate from that service would be sinful. They don't want to commit sin. Also, they're all Haunted, so that's a factor

[near jasper]

There is a way to stop the flies without killing them

Its called beating the game

[dire lynx]

killing GMS and ending the haunting:

[floral quiver]

The Citadel. Because it still exists. It's just Haunted.

[low oracle]

I'm gonna go now, bye dudes and dudettes.

[finite wind]

I don't think hornet knows it by the point she meets them.

It's pretty obvious

[near jasper]

Shes already had to go through putrified ducts

[finite wind]

Even when she knows she can defeat GMS she doesn't know it would help everyone

[finite wind]

No?

[near jasper]

She should know what shed doing by now

[near jasper]

Yes

[finite wind]

You can get captured as soon as you get wall jump?

[near jasper]

There is no broodmother before that

[near jasper]

Can

Doesnt mean its what happens

[plain ruin]

Seamstress dialogue:

[floral quiver]

The Citadel is "dead" because it can effectively be turned off and on like a music box. But it's still an active thing

It still does things when its active

[dire lynx]

Talking to lace in the citadel

Lace: What's this? The spider arrives at last, here to stand acquiver at our startling Citadel.
Hornet: Pale child, you return only to mock? Your lands have yet to prove my match. This sleeping Citadel shall be no different.
Lace: Spider, dear. Why must you remain so distressingly... optimistic? The power that waits above, you cannot conceive, her who would snuff that hope with barely a glance.
Hornet:** Fool child. You still think me blind to the form of your liege? Having come this far?**
Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.
Hornet: Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
Hornet: Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both.
Lace: Tch... Hahahaa. Marvellous! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings, and still it hopes to stand against one, a god...
Lace: Where do you hide this boundless strength you claim, spider? I've watched your struggle towards us. Lace: Yours was a painful, broken trek. One needs grace to stand before the divine.
Hornet: Then best you keep watching, child. I've found those who claim themselves a god can rarely match the title.
Hornet: And experience tells me, even gods can fall.

[plain ruin]

Also she hears about the Haunting throughout her journey on several occassion, and many of these occassions are in the early game

[floral quiver]

Literally first few minutes of gameplay.

[plain ruin]

She doesn't need to know its source to understand that it has a source, a source with a will that is being executed through possessive threads

[near jasper]

I feel like if you get to broodmother without ever finding that you're gonna have to kill something and stop the haunting thats pretty hard to do congrats

[finite wind]

Why are we assuming that hornet just knew she would end up beating the game and also that by doing it everyone would be free

[floral quiver]

Or basically how the Haunting works

[near jasper]

Because you're already meant to know by the point you should know that when you meet broodmother and freshflies

[finite wind]

Hornet should know she's gonna beat the game?

[near jasper]

Yes

She should just get good if not

[finite wind]

💀

[plain ruin]

At first she was only intent on reaching the Citadel because it would continue to deny her her freedom if she chose to just flee, but early on in her journey she begins to realize that she may not be the only one who lacks freedom in Pharloom

[near jasper]

She does outright say she's gonna get to gms and fuck her up to lace

[plain ruin]

Eventually realizing "ah shit there's a pale bastard pulling these strings, this is gonna be tough"

[floral quiver]

Shakra talks about the Haunting with Hornet when you first get a map.

Both go "Shit these guys are crazy, and look at those threads!"

[finite wind]

Yes she knows she can beat the game
She doesn't know she will, and therefore, stopping the slab as a whole is good

Also, if she actually wanted to stop the slab, she would no mercy kill the new broodmother baby

[near jasper]

She also just guesses she should kill broodmother

[finite wind]

To immediately stop the slab yes

[near jasper]

Songlclave just complained there was noise coming from the slab

She just took an excuse to rip a womans eyeball and give to caretaker for the love of the game

[finite wind]

Also btw

Broodmother instantly attacks hornet, you could say she killed her on self defense

[plain ruin]

What else was she gonna do, grab some duct tape?

[sinful nimbus]

Broodmother was in self defense

[near jasper]

Close the door to her

[floral quiver]

... you cant claim self defense on a hit you took to kill someone

[spark valve]

Me when I enter somebody’s home and they attack me

[sinful nimbus]

Its mostly the journal entries at the end of the day I don't think you can fault her for killing anything in silksong except like Karmelita if she's your 4th heart

[limpid summit]

Star you know what I think it is

[plain ruin]

You can hear the Wailing Mother in the right side of Mount Fay

[limpid summit]

Regardless of herbeing captured or not

[plain ruin]

I don't think a door is gonna do anything

[near jasper]

Who the fuck is in mount fay

[sinful nimbus]

I mean

[limpid summit]

Her higher being nature pushes her to despise the flies for attempting to consolidate power in their downtrodden environment

[plain ruin]

Pinstress, and Hornet at times

[near jasper]

Not songclave

[finite wind]

I agree with the last part

[sinful nimbus]

You can't fault broodmother for attacking Hornet but I also don't really think Hornet was seeking out violence when she accepted the wish

[plain ruin]

Either way that doesn't matter, what does matter is that you can hear it from there, meaning that Broodmother is pretty fucking loud

[limpid summit]

I mean like really why does she kill the squirrms

[floral quiver]

Okay that's silly and lore-y and awesome.

[limpid summit]

Like TK killing the maggots I can almost understand

[near jasper]

She did just guess to kill something on her own notes in the wish menu

[near jasper]

Fun

[sinful nimbus]

She hates children

[limpid summit]

True

[finite wind]

Same thing as the flies

[floral quiver]

Hornet was chasing murder

[plain ruin]

The Wish never mentions it was heard by a bug in Songclave, it just says that some horrible cries have been heard from the Slab

The entry suggests some torture is occurring

[marble oasis]

We were taken to the prison by force

[floral quiver]

And we didn't murder a people that time

The second time we did

[marble oasis]

We absolutely did?

[sinful nimbus]

For Broodmother?

[floral quiver]

The broodmother is the mother of her people

[limpid summit]

Is Broodling not a bizarre NPC choice is that just me

Why does it exist and have that dialogue

[near jasper]

I am not considering a missable event undoubtable canon to hornets action

[floral quiver]

Okay true.

[near jasper]

And im gonna be honest if you lost to a single slab fly thats a skill issue

[finite wind]

I think its purpose is to show that the slab will/can continue

[finite wind]

I don't remember its dialogue but it should be either irrelevant or reinforce this idea

[floral quiver]

Can you miss it and still get act 3?

[near jasper]

You can miss getting captured

[dire lynx]

yes

[floral quiver]

Aah, meant killing broodmother

Sorry

Chat is fast

[plain ruin]

Broodmother can be killed in Act 3, yeah

[floral quiver]

Gotcha! Thanks! So hornet doesn't have to be a monster. Nice!

[near jasper]

Its weird hornet steals a still beating heart to place on her wall

[plain ruin]

She has to be a monster, she's bored and evil

[floral quiver]

?

Hornet's a goodie all considered?

Like, to a silly degree

[plain ruin]

Nah, I saw her kick a baby while stealing candy from a puppy once

[floral quiver]

Its why her being bigoted is so jarring.

Oh

Joke

Frak

[near jasper]

Hornet deciding wether shes a slab fly eugenist or a flea hugger for the day

[floral quiver]

Im not good at those

[dire lynx]

squirrm

[plain ruin]

I wonder if comedy shows were featured on the Stage

[floral quiver]

The two sides of Hornet. They fight in a metaphorical pit!

[near jasper]

Ok why does hornet take an old heart after she gets the everbloom

[dire lynx]

so you dont miss out on cool boss fight